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A mummy currently believed to be that of Ramesses I was stolen from Egypt and displayed in a private Canadian museum for many years before being repatriated. The mummy's identity cannot be conclusively determined, but is most likely to be that of Ramesses I based on CT scans, X-rays, skull measurements and radio-carbon dating tests by researchers at Emory University, as well as aesthetic interpretations of family resemblance. Moreover, the mummy's arms were found crossed high across his chest which was a position reserved solely for Egyptian royalty until 600 BC.
Stone head carving of Paramessu (Ramesses I), originally part of a statue depicting him as a scribe; on display at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Credit: Keith Schengili-Roberts - CC BY-SA 2.5
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Why the new thread TROLL? Trying to deflect and distract?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Head of Paramessu Egyptian New Kingdom, Dynasty 18, reign of Haremhab 1323–1295 B.C.
DESCRIPTION Head of a man wearing waved wig, from a scribe statue. Chin and nose battered. Broken off at throat with lappets of wig missing. PROVENANCE Acquired in Cairo in the early 1900s (Bothmer, BMFA 47, 43); by 1942: Mr. and Mrs. Richard M. Saltonstall collection (purchased in Cairo); 1942: given to the MFA by Mrs. Richard M. Saltonstall. (Accession Date: October 1, 1942)
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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They don't really know who this 7" stone head is It could be the young Ramesses I or not. Different experts attempt to guess
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Ramesses III looks related to these dudes, perhaps a great or great grandson of Ramesses I
quote:In fact, we really have no information about how Setnakhte came to the throne, though it has been suggested that he may have been a grandson of the great king, Ramesses II.
quote:That may have been reason enough, considering that every other king of the 20th Dynasty took Ramesses as part of their names, wishing to emulate the success of their notable predecessor. However, whether he was Ramesses II's grandson or not, judging by his birth name (Setnakhte), which makes reference to Seth who was revered by the 19th Dynasty kings, there must surely have been some family connection with that earlier period.
The whole Ramesides Pharoahs of the 19 & 20th Dysnasty are E1b1a haplogroup, if Setnakhte is the grandson of Rameses II the possibility exists.
Dynasty Nineteen (O.C. 1293 – 1185 B.C) Ramesses I (Menpehtyre) Seti I Merenptah (Menmaatre) Ramesses II Meryamun (Usermaatre Setepenre) Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre-merynetjeru) Amenmesses Heqawaset (Menmire-setepenre) Seti II Merenptah (Userkheperure-setepenre) Siptah Merenptah (Akhenre-setepenre) Tausret Setepenmut (Sitremeryamun) Dynasty Twenty (O.C.1185-1070 B.C) Setnakhte Mereramunre (Userkhaure Setepenre) Ramesess III Heqaiunu (Usermaatre Meryamun) Ramesses IV (Heqamaatre) Ramesses V (Usermaatre) Ramesses VI (Nebmaatre Meryamun) Ramesses VII (Usermaatre Meryamun Setepenre) Ramesses VIII (Usermaatre Akhenamun) Ramesses IX (Neferkhare Setepenre) Ramesses X (Khepermaatre)
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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they don't know and the only way to find out would be to take some DNA from Rameses I, Seti I or Rameses II
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT..
However looking at circumstantial evidence, my guess is R3 is a Grandson of Rameses II.
The Rameses 2 the Great had 43 SONS
There would be no need to go looking for an "obscure" successor
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Drawing of a relief of pharaoh Sethnakht, father of Ramesses III Karl Richard Lepsius (1810-84) - Denkmaeler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien, band VIII - Abth. III. Blatt 299.
Relief of Ramesses II on limestone, Brooklyn Museum
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And the strong family resemblance could be from simple inbreeding.
R II had 43 sons and 45 daughters
If later cousins married second and third cousins down the line in this dynasty, then there you go.
They had a big enough extended family to do it
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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the copy of the relief drawing of Sethnakht resembles an East Asian to me although highly unlikely in actuality
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the copy of the relief drawing of Sethnakht resembles an East Asian to me although highly unlikely in actuality
I wonder if this is why Akenaton insisted on the naturalism of the Armana age and would we have that natural representation of Rameses I without it?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] the copy of the relief drawing of Sethnakht resembles an East Asian to me although highly unlikely in actuality
I wonder if this is why Akhenaton insisted on the naturalism of the Armana age and would we have that natural representation of Rameses I without it?
^^ this is a typical Akhenaton. It's unnatural. No human being has head that narrow Various distortions are typical in Amarna art. However privately in the sculptor Thutmose's studio he would make realistic portraits as a base for the art on public display
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Drawing of a relief of pharaoh Sethnakht, father of Ramesses III Karl Richard Lepsius (1810-84) - Denkmaeler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien, band VIII - Abth. III. Blatt 299.
Relief of Ramesses II on limestone, Brooklyn Museum
Proving my point that although portraits may not be 100% photorealistic, the more consistent a portrait look is the more it tends to reflect reality. And good job Lioness with the photoshop showing the uncanny resemblance.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: And the strong family resemblance could be from simple inbreeding.
R II had 43 sons and 45 daughters
If later cousins married second and third cousins down the line in this dynasty, then there you go.
They had a big enough extended family to do it
Strong resemblance doesn't necessarily mean inbreeding as such resemblance occurs in modern small families without inbreeding. Although inbreeding does dramatically preserve phenotypic traits in a family it can also give rise to peculiar traits even deformities associated with constricted gene-pool.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Habsburg-Jaw-And-Other-Royal-Inbreeding-Deformities-and-Disorders Because of close marriages like these, stillbirths were common in the royal families, as were birth defects and genetic disorders. By the same DNA testing that identified Tutankhamen's children, we also now know that Tut himself was plagued by illnesses and disorders caused by his limited gene pool. Tut had a cleft palate, a club foot (as well as missing bones in his feet), and scoliosis, all of which either occurred or were worsened due to his parentage.
Unfortunately, many other deformities were present in almost every dynasty because of inbreeding. All through the 18th dynasty, we see huge overbite problems as well as elongated skulls in almost all of the royals, evidence of the shallow gene pool.Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Or maybe R3 is just the great great grandson of R1
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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The size of nose on some of the sculptures seem to resemble the mummy more than on the paintings. If you look at the sculpture and the painting here they don't look similar at all, in my opinion
As we know the drastic bentness of the large nose of Ramesses II's mummy and others is usually due to the collapse of the cartilage in the nose in combination with pressure from the bandages
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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SO Keita and others have stated that there was a strong trend toward hybridization from the early dynasties through the New Kingdom period. The predynastic and early dynastic Egyptians showed strong southern affinity.
The New Kingdom royal mummies suggest that the Pharaohs were continuing to intermix, both with people from the north and the south.
The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans. They exceed the latter in terms of ANB and SN-M Plane, but are closer to Caucasians in regards to SNB. However, the ability of SNA and SNB to predict maxillary and mandibular protrusion respectively has been questioned. Some studies suggest that measuring prognathism from the Frankfort horizontal would produce more reliable results (See RM Ricketts, RJ Schulhof, L Bagha. Orientation-sella-nasion or Frankfort horizontal. Am J Orthod 1976 Jun;69(6):648-654; also JW Moore. Variation of the sella-nasion plane and its effect on SNA and SNB. J Oral Surg. 1976 Jan; 34(1): 24-26).
In regards to head shape, the late XVII and XVIII dynasty mummies are very close to Nubian samples intermediate between the Mesolithic and Christian periods. The zygomatic arches are almost always vertical or forward and not receding.
The XVIV Dynasty is higher in ANB and SN-M Plane than the XX Dynasty. Ramesses IV is the only one in these two dynasties with strong alveolar prognathism, at least, as indicated by SNA. However, dental alveolar prognathism is quite common in both dynasties. Also, both have ANB and SN- M Plane at mean angles higher than even African Americans.
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads. The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults. Merenptah, Siptah and Ramesses V all have pronounced glabellae. Ramesses IV has a bulging occiput similar to the "Elder Lady." Ramesses II and his son, Merenptah, both have rather weakly inclined mandibles with long ramus. Ramesses II's father, Seti I, does not possess this feature, though, suggesting that this was inherited from Ramesses II's mother, Queen Mut-Tuy. The gonial angle of Seti I is 116.3 compared to 107.9 and 109 for Ramesses II and Merenptah respectively.
The XVIV and XX dynasty heads do not have steep foreheads, receding zygomatic arches or prominent chins. Generally, both glabella and occiput are rounded and projecting to varying degrees. The sagittal contour is usually flattened, at least to some degree, although this sometimes begins before the bregma rather than in post-bregmatic position. The whole mandible is rarely squarish, although the body sometimes has a wavy edge. The latter feature, though, is very common in both ancient and modern Nubians. According to Gill (1986), an undulating mandible is a characteristic of Negroids.
The difference between late XVII and XVIII dynasty royal mummies and contemporary Nubians is slight. During the XVIV and XX dynasties we see possibly some mixing between a Nubian element that is more similar to Mesolithic Nubians (low vaults, sloping frontal bone, etc.), with an orthognathous population. Since the Ramessides were of northern extraction, this could represent miscegenation with modern Mediterraneans of Levantine type. The projecting zygomatic arches of Seti I suggest remnants of the old Natufian/Tasian types of the Holocene period.
If the heads of Queens Nodjme and Esemkhebe are any indication, there may have been a new influx of southern blood during the XXI Dynasty.
In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boy, I have waited and waited on Lioness to find this scan hirself, as he/she is usually so fast with this kind of thing but Lioness seems to have taken a vacation the same time as Antalas ? It's so curious..
But anyway here is the scan of Ramses I
Here is a kidnapped African trafficked to the United States. Imho there is a resemblance between the two.. including the balding pattern
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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The size of nose on some of the sculptures seem to resemble the mummy more than on the paintings. If you look at the sculpture and the painting here they don't look similar at all, in my opinion
As we know the drastic bentness of the large nose of Ramesses II's mummy and others is usually due to the collapse of the cartilage in the nose in combination with pressure from the bandages
In Ramesses II's case; his nose cavity was intentionally damaged so a small animal bone could be inserted to prop it up before mummification and maintain the look. His mummified face is actually distorted even more so due to this.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Boy, I have waited and waited on Lioness to find this scan hirself, as he/she is usually so fast with this kind of thing but Lioness seems to have taken a vacation the same time as Antalas? It's so curious..
But anyway here is the scan of Ramses I
Here is a kidnapped African trafficked to the United States. Imho there is a resemblance between the two.. including the balding pattern
Well I myself wasn't on vacation, but was sick! I'm not 100% yet but am recovering.
By the way, the kidnapped African you show has much wider nasal opening than Ramesse I. Although if the genetic findings are believed, ironically they may both be related via E-M2.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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