quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I wish i had all the studies at my fingertips but i dont.
stop wasting our time
when you get it together then start yapping
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture.
the beyoku theory, may or may not be true
show us a picture of a tribe in East or South Africa with straight hair otherwise you are looking silly
4,500 years ago Mota, Ethiopian remains, E1b1a2 / L3 authors of the article reporting this concluded haplogroups outside of this came later in the region (believed to be haplogroup J ) (although A and B are an exception, well established as African)
Distribution of Y-chromosomal SNP-haplogroups between males from Ethiopia M. Kohl, 2009
From the 173 analysed males, also for 173 a classification could be made. Distributions between other 173 males were: 40 males (23.1% of analysed samples) belong to the haplogroup A*, 88 males (50.9%) were related to haplogroup E*, 43 (24.9%) to haplogroup J* and one male (0.6%) to each haplogroup F* and G*.
Y chromosome haplogroups of elite Ethiopian endurance runners Moran,2004
Fig 1 Ethiopian general population control sample, 26% haplogroup J
Haplogroup J-M304 is believed to have split from the haplogroup I-M170 roughly 43,000 years ago in Western Asia, as both lineages are haplogroup IJ subclades. Both of the primary branches of haplogroup IJ – I-M170 and J-M304 – are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia. This tends to suggest that Haplogroup IJ branched from IJK in West Asia, Caucasus and/or the Middle East.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture.
South Africa has a high frequency of straight hair? Who could behind it? The San ?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
South Asia has very few nappy haired indigenous folk. South America has no indigenous nappy hair.
Europe has very curly and even crispy hair types.
Sheep (a non-Afr/Melanese species) have ulotrichous fur. Any other nappy haired animals?
Something more is behind hair texture than environment.
posted
@Lionass. I Dont want to use my time and energy playing "catchup". Teaching you about basic concepts you should have learned 10 years ago. You are not smarty enough and your goal here is nefarious so it's a waste of effort.
Let me just cut to the chase. There exist scenarios where early humans in Africa carried Ancestral variants for straighter hair. Although West Eurasians with straighter hair have influenced many regions in Africa, they are not the SOLE group responsible for straight hair because it's an ancestral trait that precedes their existence.
We dont know ALL the functions of hair morphology but we know some of them. West Eurasian backmigration into Africa could have been from straight hair Eurasians intermingling with Africans who Also had ancestral alleles for straight hair. African Substructure and distinct regional groups could have retained straight hair in the same way some Europeans retained the ancestral state of Dark Skin......Dark skin that has nothing to so with Recent African Admixture.
Example we don't NEED Africans to give Dark skin to Arabians and South Indians because their earliest non African ancestors ALREADY had dark skin. Example 2 - Guyanese are mixed with Africans, African ancestry doesn't fully explain their skin tone and if their dark skin exceeds the frequency we would expect for African Ancestry, this could indicate they may have ALSO gotten dark skin from somewhere else, likely South Asians.
We should all realize now that Most "Sub Saharans" are partially North African. Occupation of North Africa starts 350 thousand years ago. Humans in North Africa migrating around the continent pre and post OOA could have contributed a Number of features related to Ancestral and derivied Phenotypes. The earliest of these migrations wouldnt have "Eurasian Affinties". These early migrations could have spread features that persist in a region where It is advantageous, leading to an eveleated frequency that can be totally explained by more Recent Eurasian migration.
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posted
It's funny how somebody gets caught lying about a video and then tries to call me the liar. I go in and find the evidence he is lying and include the time stamp, he calls me a liar. Some people just lack character.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Answer this questions:
1 - What is the evolutionary FUNCTION of kinky/curly hair? 2 - Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Kinky/Curly hair? How long is the record of human habitation in that region?
Please see the work from Nina Jablonski and Sarah Tishkoff regarding skin tones and African specific Dark AND LIGHT skin tone alleles that originated over 100 thousand years ago. Both of them have good stuff on youtube. You are going to have to search for ALL the skin tone papers on South Africans. IN ESSENCE all the instances of "Light SKin" and "Straight hair" you see in East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture. There is something peculiar about these regions and their environment that select for these features as well. Some of the studies even list the South African specific mutations. I wish i had all the studies at my fingertips but i dont. [/QB]
No need to go that far I didn't say I completely disagree with you but simply pointing out the level of dishonesty so now answer my question : What does AEs having straight hair imply ?
Also wasn't light skin alleles in Khoisans introduced by east african pastoralists who had substantial amount of eurasian ancestry ? And yes some of these folks evolved in mediterranean-like environment but khoisans were not secluded to southern africa but were found as far as Sudan if I remember correctly.
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posted
AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)
This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.
Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.
No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.
You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Interesting. Are planning to research anything to prove the lady wrong?
I'm saying she did not say what beyoku says she said
And I'm also saying she does not explain everything fully not that she is saying something wrong
It's a Phd defense on a topic that there has not been that much research testing on and it's an area that researchers have very different theories about
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)
This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.
Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.
No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.
You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.
hahaha yes and I suppose light skin alleles in NA are simply an adaptation to their mediterranean climate as you said they were there for more than 350k years after all XD
anyway stop being dishonest like that because you're misleading the afrocentrist members who think you're defending the idea that straight hair among egyptians isn't indicative of eurasian ancestry and I think we both agree there aren't many places in Africa suited for straight hair if you absolutely want to focus on adaptation.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Interesting. Are planning to research anything to prove the lady wrong?
I'm saying she did not say what beyoku says she said
And I'm also saying she does not explain everything fully not that she is saying something wrong
It's a Phd defense on a topic that there has not been that much research testing on and it's an area that researchers have very different theories about
You didnt watch the video. In fact, watch ALL her videos and listen to her podcast features. You have been here for a LONG TIME. Nobody should have to give you a source for the Antiquated presence of humans in North Africa, The antiquated presence of Light skin alleles that precede OOA and even the splitting and multiregional genetic groups in Africa. I shouldn't have to provide a source for light skin in East and Southern Africa. This is something we went over YEARS AGO, Antalas WASNT Here and he is not Sub Saharan African so he is probably unfamiliar with what WE know and what YOU SHOULD know.
But here it is, i have to spend my time searching and SPOON FEEDING you info you should already know.
quote: The indigenous KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa have lighter skin than other sub-Saharan African populations, potentially reflecting local adaptation to a region of Africa with reduced UV radiation
quote: The frequency of this allele (33 to 53%) is far greater than expected from colonial period European gene flow; however, the most common derived haplotype is identical among European, eastern African, and KhoeSan individuals.
quote: Using both derived and background haplotypes in KhoeSan, we estimated a tMRCA of 22 kya (95% CI: 17 kya to 28 kya) for all individuals and 16 kya (95% CI: 12 kya to 20 kya) for individuals with the AA homozygote. In comparison, Europeans have a slightly younger tMRCA = 13 kya (using background haplotypes from LWK), although the CI range largely overlaps with the KhoeSan (95% CI: 7 kya to 33 kya). The Luhya have the oldest tMRCA = 27 kya (95% CI: 17 kya to 37 kya).
quote: Additionally, the average European admixture is 12 to 17% in the ≠Khomani San and Nama. Using these estimates of global ancestry and the frequency of the allele in the source populations, we would predict a frequency of ∼15% for rs1426654*A under a model of migration and neutral evolution. The observed frequency of 33 to 53% in the ≠Khomani San and Nama is much higher than that expected from admixture alone.
quote: Interestingly, the mean pigmentation of Nama and ‡Khomani individuals with <90% KhoeSan ancestry is not significantly different from individuals with >90% KhoeSan ancestry (p=0.94), although the variance is significantly greater in more admixed individuals (admixture from either/both European or Bantu ancestries, p=2.2e-3). These results suggest that while admixture increases phenotypic variance, pigmentation alleles on KhoeSan haplotypes contribute more to the overall heterogeneity than those on European or Bantu haplotypes. Consistent with this result, we observe substantial skin pigmentation variation among related individuals, which, coupled with high heritability (see below) suggests a role for large effect sizes of alleles contributing to pigmentation.
You probable want to read the FULL TEXT with a focus on the heading: *Novel Variants* Influence Skin Pigmentation in KhoeSan Populations But here is a key point:
quote: Three possible evolutionary scenarios that may explain these elevated frequencies are: 1) these variants arose in southern Africa more than 100,000 years ago and were later selected for in Europeans after the out-of-Africa migration in response to northern UVR environments. Alternatively, 2) these variants arose in Europe/Near East, were introduced into KhoeSan populations via “back to Africa” migration into southern Africa predating 17th century European colonialism
Now this is speaking of a DERIVIED Trait we KNOW has a more recent date. The ancestral trait on the other hand is over 100 thousand years old. Straight haired Africans that migrated out and populated the planet also left humans inside the continent that also migrated around the continent. If they came into an econzone where that hair type was conducive, then they would have retained it. I dont like to spend me time doing this. It took me 40 minutes to find this and you are the classic case of "pearls to swine". WATCH THE VIDEO.
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posted
wouldn't sexual selection or population bottleneck also influence those % ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)
This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.
Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.
No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.
You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.
hahaha yes and I suppose light skin alleles in NA are simply an adaptation to their mediterranean climate as you said they were there for more than 350k years after all XD
anyway stop being dishonest like that because you're misleading the afrocentrist members who think you're defending the idea that straight hair among egyptians isn't indicative of eurasian ancestry and I think we both agree there aren't many places in Africa suited for straight hair if you absolutely want to focus on adaptation.
They COULD be, but we dont know the level of indigenous light skin alleles in North African populations, its also a derived Trait. Is Dark skin..... an ancestral allele, Among Egyptians indicate of Sub Saharan African ancestry? Is the phenotype of Natufian and their skin tones indicative of Sub Saharan African ancestry?
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I do think it is possible that straighter or wavier hair may be indigenous to North Africa rather than being entirely a Eurasian import. But, having looked at the video you recommended, what would rule out a scenario of AMHs starting out with the "derived" C allele for curlier hair and then certain human populations reverting to the "ancestral" T allele for straighter hair? The T allele may be ancestral for primates, but I don't know if that means it has to be ancestral for Homo sapiens who emerged in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: They COULD be, but we dont know the level of indigenous light skin alleles in North African populations, its also a derived Trait. Is Dark skin..... an ancestral allele, Among Egyptians indicate of Sub Saharan African ancestry? Is the phenotype of Natufian and their skin tones indicative of Sub Saharan African ancestry? [/QB]
It's funny because it's actually something I proposed in the past but of course members here thought I was trying to whitewash iberomaurusians...but anyway if that was that simple and easy why would all these scholars insist on the darkness of paleolithic europeans especially if we take into account the fact that the first humans who left africa were most likely north african ?
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posted
@Antalas Dark skin GENETICALLY is an ancestral trait. The earliest North Africans are dark skinned. The DNA reinforces their narrative.
@Brandon. You seem to be confusing the definition of "Ancestral" and "derived". In terms of skin tone the ancestral state existed before AMH and the derivied state of white people is more Recent. In terms of hair morphology, the Derivied distinction is something that happened later in AMH history. Late enough that OOA populations may not Have had it. Your question would be like asking if Sub Saharans reverted back to an ancestral state after being white and passing white skin to all OOA descendants. It makes no sense. There is no adaptive reasons for that in an Tropical Savahana adapted human.
The path of least resistance from a genetic standpoint. ALL Early humans were Dark skinned, some turned light. Likewise ALL early humans were straight haired (or at least some of the pens associated with OOA) , some went curly.
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I do think it is possible that straighter or wavier hair may be indigenous to North Africa rather than being entirely a Eurasian import. But, having looked at the video you recommended, what would rule out a scenario of AMHs starting out with the "derived" C allele for curlier hair and then certain human populations reverting to the "ancestral" T allele for straighter hair? The T allele may be ancestral for primates, but I don't know if that means it has to be ancestral for Homo sapiens who emerged in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
@Brandon. You seem to be confusing the definition of "Ancestral" and "derived". In terms of skin tone the ancestral state existed before AMH and the derivied state of white people is more Recent. In terms of hair morphology, the Derivied distinction is something that happened later in AMH history. Late enough that OOA populations may not Have had it. Your question would be like asking if Sub Saharans reverted back to an ancestral state after being white and passing white skin to all OOA descendants. It makes no sense. There is no adaptive reasons for that in an Tropical Savahana adapted human.
The path of least resistance from a genetic standpoint. ALL Early humans were Dark skinned, some turned light. Likewise ALL early humans were straight haired (or at least some of the pens associated with OOA) , some went curly. [/QB]
No, Brandon understood the video you didn't
and is he is talking about hair and you are talking about skin
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)
This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.
Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.
No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.
You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.
hahaha yes and I suppose light skin alleles in NA are simply an adaptation to their mediterranean climate as you said they were there for more than 350k years after all XD
anyway stop being dishonest like that because you're misleading the afrocentrist members who think you're defending the idea that straight hair among egyptians isn't indicative of eurasian ancestry and I think we both agree there aren't many places in Africa suited for straight hair if you absolutely want to focus on adaptation.
It’s not as simple as more Eurasian = Wavier hair, and there definitely are certain environments in Africa that would favour wavier hair. Not just in North Africa but probably the Horn too, Somalis have a significantly higher incidence of wavy/straight hair than Habesha/Ethio Semitic people who are objectively more non African. I’ve personally noticed that Afars have a higher incidence of wavy hair than Highland Semitic speakers, even though they are nearly genetically indistinguishable, and I believe it’s largely due to Afars occupying the Danakil desert, which could be compared to the Somali desert and the Sahara.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Dr Lasisi in writing: The constraints of racialization: How classification and valuation hinder scientific research on human variation Tina Lasisi 05 March 2021 doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.24264
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume175, Issue2; Special Issue: Race reconciled II: Interpreting and communicating biological variation and race in 2021 June 2021 Pages 376-386
The mag has since changed its name to American Journal of Biological Anthropology The Official Journal of the American Association of Biological Anthropologists
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Still waiting for viewpoints. Whatsamatta? Too hard to consider? All people of tropical environs do not have ulotrichous hair. African non-human animals do not have ulotrichous hair.
Human skin colour and hair texture are not inextricably linked. Tar black south Asians have straight/slightly wavy hair. The majority of 'Australians' no matter how black do not have ulotrichous hair. 'Click' speakers apparently have the most ulotrichous hair and their skin is yellow brown (lighter toned than the Inner African average).
Whatever their contribution, ulotrichous hair is not due to global environmental factors.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: South Asia has very few nappy haired indigenous folk. South America has no indigenous nappy hair.
Europe has very curly and even crispy hair types.
Sheep (a non-Afr/Melanese species) have ulotrichous fur. Any other nappy haired animals?
Something more is behind hair texture than environment.
quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: It’s not as simple as more Eurasian = Wavier hair, and there definitely are certain environments in Africa that would favour wavier hair. Not just in North Africa but probably the Horn too, Somalis have a significantly higher incidence of wavy/straight hair than Habesha/Ethio Semitic people who are objectively more non African. I’ve personally noticed that Afars have a higher incidence of wavy hair than Highland Semitic speakers, even though they are nearly genetically indistinguishable, and I believe it’s largely due to Afars occupying the Danakil desert, which could be compared to the Somali desert and the Sahara. [/QB]
I already asked beyoku but he didn't answer : wouldn't these proportions also be influenced by selection or population bottleneck ? Many groups in Africa have evolved in deserts yet don't have straigt hair so I think it's not a coincidence that today straight/wavy hair in Africa is only found in areas with important amount of eurasian ancestry and higher proportions than what should be expected in certain areas might be due to some kind of strong sexual selection or population bottleneck that spread recessive genes through drift.
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quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: It’s not as simple as more Eurasian = Wavier hair, and there definitely are certain environments in Africa that would favour wavier hair. Not just in North Africa but probably the Horn too, Somalis have a significantly higher incidence of wavy/straight hair than Habesha/Ethio Semitic people who are objectively more non African. I’ve personally noticed that Afars have a higher incidence of wavy hair than Highland Semitic speakers, even though they are nearly genetically indistinguishable, and I believe it’s largely due to Afars occupying the Danakil desert, which could be compared to the Somali desert and the Sahara.
what you are saying is contrary to the video mentioned earlier. Tightly coiled hair is nothing like densely packed wool. It forms a coils that leave air pockets and also creates a maximum amount of distance between the hair surface and the scalp surface, without creating a tight barrier. This offers more protection for the brain to keep from over heating.
Straight or wavy hair is warmer and provides more insultation is warmer, thus is less suited to desert environments and more suited to colder environments According to the video that beyoku posted there was a clear pattern between higher hair curvature and lower solar heat gain
and if this is true people with straighter or wavier hair that is anything less than a springy afro in North Africa or the horn are not due to deserts
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posted
They'll never answer you, at least not until another Dog Whistling Bio-Diversity DNA study is published with sensationalist titles to get the media in a frenzy.
Don't forget, no black exists except the Blubbery Lipped SS-African confined into their magical barrier of SSA. (other Sources proving otherwise be damned)
Asia, Americas, and ever inch of land above their magical barrier is devoid of any trace or semblance of a black, according to bidiversity 101 scholarship.
As Beyoku(who's more versied and aquainted with Biodiversity revisonism) pointed out the irony of it all, yet the biodiversity scholars have successfully hoodwinked academia with their dog-whistles and Neo-Hamite fantasy.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist. /QB]
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist. /QB]
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB]
Still waiting for viewpoints. Whatsamatta? Too hard to consider? All people of tropical environs do not have ulotrichous hair. African non-human animals do not have ulotrichous hair.
Human skin colour and hair texture are not inextricably linked. Tar black south Asians have straight/slightly wavy hair. The majority of 'Australians' no matter how black do not have ulotrichous hair. 'Click' speakers apparently have the most ulotrichous hair and their skin is yellow brown (lighter toned than the Inner African average).
Whatever their contribution, ulotrichous hair is not due to global environmental factors.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] They'll never answer you, at least not until another Dog Whistling Bio-Diversity DNA study is published with sensationalist titles to get the media in a frenzy.
Don't forget, no black exists except the Blubbery Lipped SS-African confined into their magical barrier of SSA. (other Sources proving otherwise be damned)
Asia, Americas, and ever inch of land above their magical barrier is devoid of any trace or semblance of a black, according to bidiversity 101 scholarship.
As Beyoku(who's more versied and aquainted with Biodiversity revisonism) pointed out the irony of it all, yet the biodiversity scholars have successfully hoodwinked academia with their dog-whistles and Neo-Hamite fantasy.
What are you talking about ? "black" is like "east asian" "amerindian" "european" so yes it's only found in a specific area and physical similarities do not define it. It's ancestry/genes that define what is black and what isn't. I can find north african looking people in afghanistan, europe or latin america it doesn't mean we're the same people or that I should call them "north african".
It seems like you hate your west african background and try to claim people who clearly haven't much to do with you.
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I do think it is possible that straighter or wavier hair may be indigenous to North Africa rather than being entirely a Eurasian import. But, having looked at the video you recommended, what would rule out a scenario of AMHs starting out with the "derived" C allele for curlier hair and then certain human populations reverting to the "ancestral" T allele for straighter hair? The T allele may be ancestral for primates, but I don't know if that means it has to be ancestral for Homo sapiens who emerged in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
@Brandon. You seem to be confusing the definition of "Ancestral" and "derived". In terms of skin tone the ancestral state existed before AMH and the derived state of white people is more Recent. In terms of hair morphology, the Derivied distinction is something that happened later in AMH history. Late enough that OOA populations may not Have had it. Your question would be like asking if Sub Saharans reverted back to an ancestral state after being white and passing white skin to all OOA descendants. It makes no sense. There is no adaptive reasons for that in an Tropical Savahana adapted human.
The path of least resistance from a genetic standpoint. ALL Early humans were Dark skinned, some turned light. Likewise ALL early humans were straight haired (or at least some of the pens associated with OOA) , some went curly.
No, Brandon understood the video you didn't
and is he is talking about hair and you are talking about skin
You are so slow. SMH Look at your map. -The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait.. -The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant. -Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians". -The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait. -Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.
SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.
That's it. Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait. Someone help me out, what is the TMRCA of "Ancestral Northern African" and when did it split from MOTA?
Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.
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-The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait..
-The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant.
- Yes human remains were found Morocco dated to 315,000 years ago
- Yes, today the Maghreb has a lot of straight haired people
seriously? You are using this as an argument?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians".
you are just making this up show us any source that records this straight haired ancestral trait in Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait.
yes plenty of the straight hair ancestral straight hair there and plenty of history of foreign occupation. Saunier 2009 lists 12 mitochondrial haplogroups in modern Egyptians, the highest frequency, R0
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.
stop the double talk please As soon as you say "would likely" that means you have no evidence
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.
you can't even talk about the topic openly as she does in the video. You avoid saying "curled hair" and "straight hair" but this is what her whole video and was about in addition to ancestral traits related to it
you say "Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions..."
Could have, may have, probably all of that is speculation
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait.
whenever I hear "they don't need" in discussions like this it's a political taint
It's as if straight hair is some kind of achievement or talent
Yet straight is less suited to dry and dessert environments as Tina Lasisi's analysis shows, the simple fact that your head gets hotter with straight hair as compared to springy curled hair
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.
[/QB]
You are showing us a chart here that shows ancient Taforalt Moroccans 46% Non-African and Agaw, Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia 41% Non-African
If you see any straight or wavy straight hair in Africans today that is either due to admixture with non-Africans or a hypothetical continuity in situ, from a theoretical earlier pre-curled straight haired African population
So even if there is in situ African continuity that has lasted up until the present one would have to have some way of accurate way of distinguishing that from Africans with recent mixed ancestry with Arabs, East Indians or Europeans etc This applies to that map form the video, those small blue slices within the orange pies (and notably the blue is absent in the central African pies that are away from the coast) She does not go into the samples, the strait haired blue trait there in South Africa is likely due to the Europeans there)
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK everybody's afraid of gorilla in the room -- the absense of coily hair in tropical Americas and the straight hair of the extinct black skinned California Indians, etc.
So let's see about something mangled in this discussion. There is no one region of Africa can claim to be the birthplace of Hss. Homo sapiens sapiens has no direct ladder or tree like evolution, we're more like a bush they say now days. I'd just say there's much intertangling. I prefer the trellis model while retaining at least two OoA Homo overall replacement departures. One for the super successful Homo erectus (1.8Mya-30Kya) and one for us.
According to this
the ancestral trait for hair texture ie 'straight' among Inner Africans (Tropic of Cancer to the Cape of Good Hope) is highest in the Bight of Benin region, home of the Yoruba.
This region is called 'white man's grave' because inhospitable to whites
quote:Beware, beware the Bight of the Benin, for few come out though many go in. A variation goes: Beware beware, the Bight of Benin: one comes out, where fifty went in!
ergo no settler colonies there of any people remotely white. Southwestern Nigeria rs310644 T allele apparently does not come from admixture with Berbers, Europeans, or Arabs.
Over on the Swahili coast there's documented admixture with various Gulf Arabs. Yet the ancestral allele frequency there is the least for Lasisi's reported Inner Africans.
What exactly does dual colors mean for a population? The corridor from the Gulf to SW Central Asia has very significant
derived percentages. The location that looks to be somewhere in China is nearly 50%. Are there notices of copious coily haired groups or individuals there? Same for the Bight of Benin, any notices of 'straight' hair matching the freq of the ancestral T allele?
Assuming they are pools of individuals, how are bi-colored circles to be interpreted? Is there a local population percentage tip off toward one pole or the other. Must a population's allelic frequency be greater than 50% for the full phenotype to display? What does hair neither coily nor straight register in terms of ancestral and derived alleles? How are these T and C alleles actually expressed in hair texture phenotypes of neither pole? Can one have either allele while expressing neither?
If a specimen is half caucasian hair and half african hair how does one tell if it is either or the other. _____________________________________________
What is also interesting is male pattern baldness. I will be excited to see what Lasissi has for us in the future on this subject.
Native Americans men have no male pattern baldness, beards, mustaches or chest hair. Mbuti & Khoisan from what I have observed do not have male pattern baldness. Yoruba have "east african" male pattern baldness
caucasian/mediterranean There are three basic types of Caucasian or Mediterranean region baldness patterns. Ebling, who developed classifications for particular ethnic groups, suggested the five stages of balding for these three hair types as shown below.
The first type is the Latin version which initially involves recession of the frontline of hair, followed by thinning in the vertex. The frontal hairline continues to recede as the balding in the crown enlarges until the two blend into an expanded Type V pattern.
The second baldness type is Semitic (Jewish, Arabian). This variety proceeds from the front and slowly works backward until the entire top of the head is without hair. There does not seem to be as much early thinning in the vertex as we see in Caucasians.
The final kind is the Nordic This starts with a bald patch in the back as well as temporal thinning in the front. There is sometimes a central lock of surviving hair which may also disappear with advanced balding.
While the numbers are different according to different surveys, it appears that either Greece, Macedonia, or the Czech Republic has the highest rate of baldness in the world. These nations each have over 40% of men with acute hair loss.
japan, korea and the rest of east asia People of East Asian descent and especially Japanese, experience hair loss at one of the lowest rates in the world, and start much later in life than other places. Those that do lose hair, generally, start in their 40s and 50s rather than their 20s and 30s.
East Asians are furthest from the Mediterranean region and also have the lowest rate of baldness which does not seem to be an accident. Incidentally, their baldness rate can range from 20% to the low 30s, which is still a significant portion of the population.
africa and the middle east Generally, the closer the population is to the Mediterranean Sea, the higher the rates of male pattern baldness. People from countries in northern Africa have very high percentages of baldness, from the high 30s to the low 40% range. These individuals generally either have the Semitic or Latin baldness variation, depending on whether they have more Arab roots or more mixed roots.
Men from sub-Saharan Africa have about an average level of baldness, ranging in the mid 30% rate. They have a mix of the Semitic and Latin hair loss patterns.
iran While Iranians are in the Middle East, they have a peculiarly high rate of baldness, greater than many other countries in the region. Their population edges on 40% with male pattern baldness. This interesting twist is noted by genealogists that study the movement of peoples in the region.
Kwame Nkrumah & Hallie Selassie while looking very different really had the same balding pattern, I found it very interesting
typical yoruba type balding, Also seen this type of balding in the Luo Western Nilotes who are majority E1b1a. Old pictures of African Americans/ and Memes like Uncle Tom show this type of East African balding. But I see many AA's now who have North West European type balding from Admixture of course.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait..
-The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant.
- Yes human remains were found Morocco dated to 315,000 years ago
- Yes, today the Maghreb has a lot of straight haired people
seriously? You are using this as an argument?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians".
you are just making this up show us any source that records this straight haired ancestral trait in Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait.
yes plenty of the straight hair ancestral straight hair there and plenty of history of foreign occupation. Saunier 2009 lists 12 mitochondrial haplogroups in modern Egyptians, the highest frequency, R0
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
-Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.
stop the double talk please As soon as you say "would likely" that means you have no evidence
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.
you can't even talk about the topic openly as she does in the video. You avoid saying "curled hair" and "straight hair" but this is what her whole video and was about in addition to ancestral traits related to it
you say "Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions..."
Could have, may have, probably all of that is speculation
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait.
whenever I hear "they don't need" in discussions like this it's a political taint
It's as if straight hair is some kind of achievement or talent
Yet straight is less suited to dry and dessert environments as Tina Lasisi's analysis shows, the simple fact that your head gets hotter with straight hair as compared to springy curled hair
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.
You are showing us a chart here that shows ancient Taforalt Moroccans 46% Non-African and Agaw, Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia 41% Non-African
If you see any straight or wavy straight hair in Africans today that is either due to admixture with non-Africans or a hypothetical continuity in situ, from a theoretical earlier pre-curled straight haired African population
So even if there is in situ African continuity that has lasted up until the present one would have to have some way of accurate way of distinguishing that from Africans with recent mixed ancestry with Arabs, East Indians or Europeans etc This applies to that map form the video, those small blue slices within the orange pies (and notably the blue is absent in the central African pies that are away from the coast) She does not go into the samples, the strait haired blue trait there in South Africa is likely due to the Europeans there) [/QB]
What is the purpose of ruling out or pushing back so hard on in situ continuity in the Northern regions of Africa when we know non-kinky hair is Ancestral and has clear selection pressures against it in tropical/sub-tropical regions? Hair texture is polygenic, Africans living in the tropics do carry various alleles associated with straighter hair textures regardless of their phenotype.
You're even pushing back on some of the most basics of understanding the development of anatomically modern humans. The darkening of skin is highly likely a result of hair loss. I don't think there's an Evolutionary biologist, Anthropologist or geneticist worth their salt who would disagree.
It's funny because on one end it would be ludicrous to say that every light skinned African we see today inherited that phenotype from a non African. But you can confidently argue that every straight haired individual/population that lived in the stretch of 40,000 years or so in any region of Africa got that trait from Non-Africans. To top it off you can make that assertion knowing that Straight hair was ancestral... which is quite hilarious.
Also it's still shocking to see people treating African populations, specifically SSA's as some sort of relic population without the presence of local adaptations since the advent of OOA populations. Even among the khoi there was heavy sexual selection for peppercorn hair texture which lasted till recent times. Why hypothesize something more rare (back mutation) than continuity and claim that it's not politically or bias driven?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
"Why hypothesize something more rare (back mutation) than continuity and claim that it's not politically or bias driven?"
Because they correlate with eurasian ancestry even in environnement where there shouldn't be any kind of pressure to maintain it.
Go ahead and show me a single SSA population with straight hair and negligible amount of eurasian ancestry. Good luck.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: "Why hypothesize something more rare (back mutation) than continuity and claim that it's not politically or bias driven?"
Because they correlate with eurasian ancestry even in environnement where there shouldn't be any kind of pressure to maintain it.
Go ahead and show me a single SSA population with straight hair and negligible amount of eurasian ancestry. Good luck.
1st of all, you're talking about two separate subject matters as if it's a single point. "Kind of pressure to maintain it" why does it seem like you really don't understand what you're talking about. Equatorial African populations at-least since OOA had been selecting for higher curvature or been under that selection pressure. Why would you make such a stupid comment and even for a brief second view it as a legitimate challenge.
"Find me a single a single scandinavian population that's black." -- The equivalent.
And for my initial point which went over your anti-black head. I'm referring to sweeping selection for derived variants coding for curlier hair being back mutated in all non OOA populations. That phenomena is significantly less likely than continuity.
If you want to say that only after OOA ALL populations which remained in Africa (Northern or southern) underwent sweeping selection or a bottle neck making them fixed for curlier hair that'd be a somewhat respectable hypothesis. But it'll still be a rug sweep which will essentially suggest that Northern Africa had no discrete effects on variation and or lacked human occupancy until the return of Eurasian migrants.
If you can't see the point and how that's a slippery slope then I honestly don't know how to save you.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: 1st of all, you're talking about two separate subject matters as if it's a single point. "Kind of pressure to maintain it" why does it seem like you really don't understand what you're talking about. Equatorial African populations at-least since OOA had been selecting for higher curvature or been under that selection pressure. Why would you make such a stupid comment and even for a brief second view it as a legitimate challenge.
Seems like you didn't understand me : no matter since when equatorial african populations have been selecting for such feature there are still populations who evolved in similar environnement yet didn't end up with the same type of hair and it happen that they also carry important amount of eurasian ancestry so according to your logic if we postulate that it's most likely due to that type of ancestry then we're "biased" or "politically motivated" and instead we should simply view it as the ancestral allele being maintained for whatever reason...
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: "Find me a single a single scandinavian population that's black." -- The equivalent.
Yes the equivalent if I had claimed that there are black skinned scandinavians without recent african ancestry.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
@Lyingass. I SMH at the idea of you thinking you "Had me". This is why i said you are SLOW and a waste of time.
You say this:
quote: you are just making this up show us any source that records this straight haired ancestral trait in Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu
This is AFTER you posted the graphic that contained the actual DATA and its right in front of your face. You been here for THIS long and dont know anything. You dont know the standard Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) African sample of Kenyan Bantu, Biaka, Mandenka, Mbuti pygmy, Mozabite, San, and Yoruba . How do you NOT know this? How do you see the image, and see the circles on the map but somehow CANT match the "Mandinka" to that circle in Senegambia? You cant match the Yoruba to that sample over Nigeria? Do you NOT KNOW where these locations are on the African map? Do we REALLY have to start teaching you "From Scratch"?
Your comments are utter foolishness and reduce the collective IQ of the Site.
@Antalas See the Above image, See the allele frequency in Mandinka, Yoruba and Luhya. You keep dodging questions. 1 - WHY do you keep saying it correlates with Eurasian ancestry if it existed before Eurasians existed because its an ANCESTRAL Trait. Given your previous question regarding skin color, I am thinking you dont understand what "Ancestral trait" means. 2 - Does Dark skin in North Africa correlate to Sub Saharan Ancestry? 3 - What is the evolutionary function of curly hair according to that thesis? The fact you keep dodging this question indicates you still haven't watched the video.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: 1st of all, you're talking about two separate subject matters as if it's a single point. "Kind of pressure to maintain it" why does it seem like you really don't understand what you're talking about. Equatorial African populations at-least since OOA had been selecting for higher curvature or been under that selection pressure. Why would you make such a stupid comment and even for a brief second view it as a legitimate challenge.
Seems like you didn't understand me : no matter since when equatorial african populations have been selecting for such feature there are still populations who evolved in similar environnement yet didn't end up with the same type of hair and it happen that they also carry important amount of eurasian ancestry so according to your logic if we postulate that it's most likely due to that type of ancestry then we're "biased" or "politically motivated" and instead we should simply view it as the ancestral allele being maintained for whatever reason...
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: "Find me a single a single scandinavian population that's black." -- The equivalent.
Yes the equivalent if I had claimed that there are black skinned scandinavians without recent african ancestry.
Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.
[/QB]
I was obviously talking about modern scandinavians ...smh
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.
I was obviously talking about modern scandinavians ...smh [/QB]
Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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@Antalas See the Above image, See the allele frequency in Mandinka, Yoruba and Luhya. You keep dodging questions. 1 - WHY do you keep saying it correlates with Eurasian ancestry if it existed before Eurasians existed because its an ANCESTRAL Trait. Given your previous question regarding skin color, I am thinking you dont understand what "Ancestral trait" means.
Again I'm talking about modern/historical populations. Your ancestral trait has been "kept away" in SSA for tens of thousands of years now. That's why straight hair in SSA correlates with eurasian ancestry and it's not due to the ancestral allele being simply more expressed than in other areas.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - Does Dark skin in North Africa correlate to Sub Saharan Ancestry?
most likely yes
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - What is the evolutionary function of curly hair according to that thesis? The fact you keep dodging this question indicates you still haven't watched the video. [/QB]
It apparently minimizes better heat gain than straight hair
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted? [/QB]
Yes but If today I find a few scandinavians with dark skin should I logically conclude they are mixed or pretend they might actually be fully scandinavian and dark skin still persist today because of those ancestral alleles ?
According to elmaestro if I don't find the second option plausible then I'm biased, politcally motivated and anti-black.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted?
Yes but If today I find a few scandinavians with dark skin should I logically conclude they are mixed or pretend they might actually be fully scandinavian and dark skin still persist today because of those ancestral alleles ?
According to elmaestro if I don't find the second option plausible then I'm biased, politcally motivated and anti-black. [/QB]
This is a stupid point when we're clearly referencing centuries of continuity. The issue is your challenging point makes no sense. You asked for a POPULATION of sub saharan Africans with straight hair I ask for a POPULATION of Scandinavians with dark skin. Neither exists today because the ancestral traits were swept. How can you not even understand the simplest of concepts.
Use the same equivalencies when looking at neolithic individuals Beyoku referenced above... Do you think all the dark skinned neolithic scandinavians were that way because of African ancestry???? Use the same logic when dealing with African populations who didn't reside in areas with HEAVY selection pressure for more hair curvature.
why are you being dense?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.
I was obviously talking about modern scandinavians ...smh
Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted?
Ancient (in this case mesolithic) Scandinavians were a blend of at least two separate populations (WHG and EHG) whereof some were dark skinned but others not. As some of the Motala hunter gatherers who had affinity for light skin and hair. So at least 8000 years ago you could find light skinned, and light haired people in Scandinavia.
Later immigrations further increased the proportion of light skin and light hair.
In the neolithic most Scandinavians were not dark skinned (at least not in Sweden) anymore.
From the bronze age we have direct evidence (not only genetic) of blonde hair in Danish barrows.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: This is a stupid point when we're clearly referencing centuries of continuity. The issue is your challenging point makes no sense. You asked for a POPULATION of sub saharan Africans with straight hair I ask for a POPULATION of Scandinavians with dark skin. Neither exists today because the ancestral traits were swept. How can you not even understand the simplest of concepts.
Use the same equivalencies when looking at neolithic individuals Beyoku referenced above... Do you think all the dark skinned neolithic scandinavians were that way because of African ancestry???? Use the same logic when dealing with African populations who didn't reside in areas with HEAVY selection pressure for more hair curvature.
why are you being dense? [/QB]
Who denied this ? That's not the point. The point is : what should we conclude from ancient egyptians having straight hair while their nubian neighbours had the opposite pattern despite both evolving in the same kind of environnement ?
You guys are trying to push the stupid idea that it is not necessarily indicative of eurasian ancestry while it obviously is at least for that time period.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Also do Taforalt, Early Neolithic Moroccans and Natufian have Sub Saharan Admixture?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: This is a stupid point when we're clearly referencing centuries of continuity. The issue is your challenging point makes no sense. You asked for a POPULATION of sub saharan Africans with straight hair I ask for a POPULATION of Scandinavians with dark skin. Neither exists today because the ancestral traits were swept. How can you not even understand the simplest of concepts.
Use the same equivalencies when looking at neolithic individuals Beyoku referenced above... Do you think all the dark skinned neolithic scandinavians were that way because of African ancestry???? Use the same logic when dealing with African populations who didn't reside in areas with HEAVY selection pressure for more hair curvature.
why are you being dense?
Who denied this ? That's not the point. The point is : what should we conclude from ancient egyptians having straight hair while their nubian neighbours had the opposite pattern despite both evolving in the same kind of environnement ?
You guys are trying to push the stupid idea that it is not necessarily indicative of eurasian ancestry while it obviously is at least for that time period. [/QB]
You consistently create false arguments and strawmen when I wasn't even addressing anything you have to offer under the disguise of "datas." And you also consistently trip over your own logic leaving a trail for people to clean up. case in point... You're comparing two populations with variable and overlapping hair types due both to admixture and continuity in the region at that time. yet some how you managed to claim that Nubians neighbors had the "opposite pattern." Why are you making shit up? Are you talking about nilotic populations who had a different demographic history all together and who are one of the groups to show patterns of sweeping selection for traits beneficial to sub-tropical climate such has hyper-pigmentation?
This discussion is barely worth having but okay lets have fun with this... when was the time period in North Africa (for example) when straight hair wasn't indicative of Eurasian ancestry? And how would you know?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Unless SSA isn't geography Somalia lies south of Sahra at the same latitude as Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Nigeria, Cameroon, CAR, and South Sudan.
Also do Taforalt, Early Neolithic Moroccans and Natufian have Sub Saharan Admixture?
Alright I'll check the thread and I was talking based on the skulls from kerma like this one :
or the mummy of the nubian maiherpri :
As for taforalt/IAM and Natufian they actually had a SSA-like component yes what's your point ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Throw a rock in the air and hear a pig squeal when it lands...
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [What are you talking about ? "black" is like "east asian" "amerindian" "european" so yes it's only found in a specific area and physical similarities do not define it.
Stop playing games and wasting time, Historically, Black was and has never been confined to any specific region and has been used as a descriptor for darker skinned people all over the globe.
Only Supremists- both Euro-Pale White and Med off Brown White Arab tried to confine it to Africans in order to justify their religious sanctioned enslaving.
quote:It's ancestry/genes that define what is black and what isn't.
such a silly and stupid ideology that tries to downplay the interaction between various Africans all over the continent.
quote:I can find north african looking people in afghanistan, europe or latin america it doesn't mean we're the same people or that I should call them "north african".
No one is saying that all people under the label of "Black" are the same, but that historically they existed under that label. Yet You literally call these people "MENA" when it suits you
quote:It seems like you hate your west african background and try to claim people who clearly haven't much to do with you.
You don't know anything about me or who I hate/claim. Just another bio-divisity neo-Hamite trying to tell Africans how to think and act. Literally judging the lived experience of people on your whims and bias.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: This discussion is barely worth having but okay lets have fun with this... when was the time period in North Africa (for example) when straight hair wasn't indicative of Eurasian ancestry? And how would you know? [/QB]
All we know is Iberomaurusians already had it and we also know they were primarly eurasian but I wouldn't have any problem with aterians having straight hair too but we can only speculate now. Again these are things I already proposed due to the environnement in which they evolved for tens of thousands of years but you all started to laugh at it as if I was trying to make them "non-african".
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Throw a rock in the air and hear a pig squeal when it lands...
Stop playing games and wasting time, Historically, Black was and has never been confined to any specific region and has been used as a descriptor for darker skinned people all over the globe.
Only Supremists- both Euro-Pale White and Med off Brown White Arab tried to confine it to Africans in order to justify their religious sanctioned enslaving.
such a silly and stupid ideology that tries to downplay the interaction between various Africans all over the continent.
No one is saying that all people under the label of "Black" are the same, but that historically they existed under that label. Yet You literally call these people "MENA" when it suits you
You don't know anything about me or who I hate/claim. Just another bio-divisity neo-Hamite trying to tell Africans how to think and act. Literally judging the lived experience of people on your whims and bias.
Just stop being ridiculous like that ...SMH You can come to Europe or Africa and ask people what black identity is and you'll probably have a shock. Only americans reduce it to skin color and lump all sorts of people who clearly have nothing to do with each other.
You also completely contradict yourself : If it's only a question of skin color why Are these people considered "black" in your country ?
You know damn well why AAs and especially afrocentrists are quick to call any dark skinned people "black" don't be a hypocrite. Why do you think they are so aggressive at defending the blackness of Egypt despite claiming "We don't claim these are our ancestors" or are triggered when horners refused to identify as black ? And I might use the term "MENA" but still I do not feel any kind of kinship with these people nor do I talk in terms of "MENA civilizations" as if it was my heritage or something I can be proud of.
I repeat and you can ask any non-american if you don't believe me : People think of black africans when you mention "black" certainly not any dark skinned people.
Also if it was only about skin color what's the point ? What do south indians and nigerians share in common ? Same levels of melanin ? LOL You base identity on history, ancestors, culture, etc certainly not similar levels of melanin that's only in the US and its specific social context.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Yes African Americans have lost their original history and cultures, so they can only identify through their skin color, not so much else. That is probably also why some of them try to claim other peoples (who happens to be dark skinned) cultures and achievements, so they will not feel so rootless and alone in the world.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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You been here for THIS long and dont know anything. You dont know the standard 
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