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In the thread about Netflix Cleopatra I posted a couple of videos made by a young Egyptian woman who calls herself Kemet Queen on YouTube. Here is another video made by her about Egyptian statues and broken noses.
Nice to see young people who are interested in history and archaeology, and also interesting to get an Egyptian perspective on Egyptian history.
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Actually, Egyptians have always been interested in history, but Islam and colonization have played a role in how that history was discussed. Obviously Islam had a big role in this and beyond that the fact that most colonizing cultures give little relevance to history before their own. In Islam, anything prior to the advent of the Prophet is called the Age of Ignorance and that even applies to the Arabian peninsula itself. As such, they had no problem giving away most of the artifacts taken out of the country in the past, primarily by Ottoman officials.
Europeans promoted the idea of history for history's sake, but mostly it was a treasure hunt for them to claim themselves as the custodians of all history. And they took advantage of the attitude of the Ottomans of the areas of North Africa, the Levant and Greece that they controlled to acquire artifacts. And those artifacts from those regions, are the foundation of modern archaeology and anthropology in the west.
But even with all that, Egyptians have always had their own voice on the topic of history. The issue is that they speak Arabic and unless you read or speak arabic, you aren't going to be aware of it or what it says. And there are numerous universities in Egypt that predate European colonization, but they are Arabic universities and mostly teach Islam.
Obviously this woman speaks good English and only came to youtube to speak in English about Netflix's Cleopatra, to a Western audience.
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The Egyptian woman Kemet Queen with another video where she talks with an Arab historian about things like the Arab conquest of Egypt and slave trade.
In the future she also plans to interview Egyptian and Sudanese historians.
quote: This is my talk with Bahraini Historian Karim Wafa where we take a deep dive into the historical events during the Arab/Islamic conquest of Egypt and North Africa. Tackling some of the biggest questions such as how much resistance there was, how long did the process take, was there a genocide of the indigenous Egyptians, was Islam enforced, and how/why did Egyptians adopt the Arabic language.
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Here she talks about Cleopatra and about how Cleopatra may have died
quote: Where is Cleopatra's tomb? And how did she die? Kemet Queen unravels the mysteries of one of her favorite Pharaohs, Queen Cleopatra.
Embrace the essence of ancient times as we embark on a captivating expedition to unravel the mysteries surrounding the demise of Cleopatra, the illustrious last Pharaoh of Egypt. Accompany us on a remarkable quest, delving into the secrets that shroud her poignant departure and the hallowed grounds where she forever lies.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The Egyptian woman Kemet Queen with another video where she talks with an Arab historian about things like the Arab conquest of Egypt and slave trade.
In the future she also plans to interview Egyptian and Sudanese historians.
quote: This is my talk with Bahraini Historian Karim Wafa where we take a deep dive into the historical events during the Arab/Islamic conquest of Egypt and North Africa. Tackling some of the biggest questions such as how much resistance there was, how long did the process take, was there a genocide of the indigenous Egyptians, was Islam enforced, and how/why did Egyptians adopt the Arabic language.
Funny how this is the exact same thing that Afrocentric black Americans have been saying for years. Yet when black Americans say it, it is Afrocentric nonsense yet Egyptians and other North Africans have been saying the same thing. The Arab conquest of North Africa including the enslavement of women and children, the indoctrination of the latter, and the imposition of the dhimma (2nd class status) to the native Christian populations both Byzantine and indigenous. During the Arab Caliphates, more Arab tribes were imported into Egypt and later in the Ottoman Caliphate, Muslims from the Balkans and the Caucasus were also imported. This is why even as far south as Nubia you have a tribe of Nubians that are of Albanian ancestry and a tribe of Arabs with Hungarian ancestry (Magyarabs).
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Here she talks about Cleopatra and about how Cleopatra may have died
quote: Where is Cleopatra's tomb? And how did she die? Kemet Queen unravels the mysteries of one of her favorite Pharaohs, Queen Cleopatra.
Embrace the essence of ancient times as we embark on a captivating expedition to unravel the mysteries surrounding the demise of Cleopatra, the illustrious last Pharaoh of Egypt. Accompany us on a remarkable quest, delving into the secrets that shroud her poignant departure and the hallowed grounds where she forever lies.
Not to mention other mysteries surrounding the Ptolemies, like what happened to Cleopatra's sisters, and what went on in Alexandria concerning the Judaean peoples and the Macedonians?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Funny how this is the exact same thing that Afrocentric black Americans have been saying for years. Yet when black Americans say it, it is Afrocentric nonsense yet Egyptians and other North Africans have been saying the same thing.
Maybe it is for Egyptians, and also others, that history sometimes seems more legitimate when told by the peoples in question themselves. Probably many Egyptians trust their own historians more than foreigners. Also some African Americans, especially online, may have given other African Americans a bad reputation due to exaggerated and unrealistic claims, like this guy who wants to expel the modern Egyptians from Egypt.
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Nora (Kemet Queen) has started a petition for the return of Egyptian artifacts
quote:There are over 50,000 Egyptian artifacts in the Louvre and other French museums that are currently in danger. Please sign the petition to help Egypt return its artifacts safely back to their home.
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Nora seems ambitious. Soon she will have an Egyptologist as a guest in an upcoming video
quote: I am going to be having Egyptologist and book author Dr. Mariam Ayad on the Kemet Queen show 🥰
The topic will be Women in Ancient Egypt. We are going to discuss everything from women’s roles in society, women’s rights, to the lives and reign of well known Egyptian Queens.
As always we’re gonna have a Q&A part at the end of the episode so please drop your questions below
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Here is an excellent book on the issue of Egypt's stolen artifacts.
The Egyptians should handle their own heritage. I know that amongst Egyptians there is a dispute between the Baladi and Afrangi but that is for them to sort out. Egyptians whatever their ancestry have a far better claim to their antiquities than khawaga (foreigners).
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kemet queen (Nora) gives her take on the Tal Al Taramsa child and the Nazlet Khater 2 man.
She talks about the context around the findings and about the affinity of especially Nazlet Khater 2
quote:In this video you will learn about the oldest human remains found in Egypt and the earliest artifacts that tell us hints about life in Egypt during the stone age.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Nora seems ambitious. Soon she will have an Egyptologist as a guest in an upcoming video
quote: EXCITING NEWSS my fellow history geeks😍😍
I am going to be having Egyptologist and book author Dr. Mariam Ayad on the Kemet Queen show 🥰
The topic will be Women in Ancient Egypt. We are going to discuss everything from women’s roles in society, women’s rights, to the lives and reign of well known Egyptian Queens👸🏻👸🏽
As always we’re gonna have a Q&A part at the end of the episode so please drop your questions below 👇🏽
And in this last video she says the following at the 1:03:50 mark:
quote: In terms of contemporary Egyptians, contemporary Egyptians for the most part, are quite divorced from their past. They don't view themselves so much as descendants of the pharaohs unless there's a soccer match and they want to ramp up the national furor. But generally speaking, I've had a mentor, currently a colleague at the AUC, whose work has really focused on cultural idiom, whether its in religious practice, or in the vernacular of Egyptian Arabic. And she's ingrained in me, and in her own work, the importance of doing ethno-Egyptology and the success she's had there. So I've tried to apply some of it, like if there's a turn of phrase that is especially cumbersome to render in English, then if I think of it in colloquial Egyptian, then it makes sense and I can provide an intimate translation occasionally. There's also, according to her work, some religious practices that have to do with having a meal at the tombs, with the deceased, on feast days, that are still practiced. Certain phrases that are said today in commemoration of the departed that we can show are direct descendants of tomb decoration, like the <garbled> at the top of the tomb is something that's often referred to. and she's been able to demonstrate that these are essentially Egyptian and not-- because, you know, Egypt had a lot of cultures and it's been a long time since then. But in these two instances or more, that was very clearly demonstrated. But aside from that, Egyptians are totally decoupled from their past, to the extent that they can desecrate and loot monuments. And they think that these monuments belong to the tourists. There's no sense of national ownership of that culture. And its sad and breaks our hearts. And that's partly why I moved back Ann, to circle back to your question, because one of my colleagues Monica Hanna, has been very vocal about the importance of cultural preservation. And shes's a very courageous woman, and did tremendous work combating looting and shedding light on the state of looting since 2011. And I thought, you know, I'm here in a comfortable job, tenured in Memphis (Tennessee), but essentially isolated from all the action. And in the ferver post-2011, I thought maybe the most revolutionary thing I can do is move back and be the best scholar I can be, where I may be more needed. But it turns out I'm still in an ivory tower at AUC. It's quite isolated. But outside of school and the limited number of students that we have, I may be able to support colleagues who are in the field there.
As for remains from Nazlet Kater, they date from u upwards of 25,000 years prior to the emergence of Nile Valley civilization. And some of them posses "archaic features, which only are important in the overall understanding of the evolution of human physiognomy over time in the Nile Valley and overall.
quote: Nazlet Khater[1] is an archeological site located in Upper Egypt that has yielded evidence of early human culture and anatomically modern specimens dating to approximately thirty to fifty thousand years ago.
Excavations at the Nazlet Khater 2 site (Boulder Hill) yielded the remains of two human skeletons in 1980.[2] One of the skulls was that of a male subadult. The cranium was generally modern in form, but with a very wide face, and it evinced some archaic traits in the temple and mandible areas. Below the skull, the skeleton was robust, but otherwise, anatomically modern. Morphological analysis of the Nazlet Khater mandible indicates that the specimen was distinct from the examined Late Pleistocene and Holocene North African specimens.[3]
Ron Pinhasi and Patrick Semal (2000) found strong Stone Age Sub-Saharan affinities in the 33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet Khater, Upper Egypt as the authors noted "The morphometric affinities of the 33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet Khater, Upper Egypt are examined using multivariate statistical procedures. The results indicate a strong association between some of the sub-Saharan Middle Stone Age (MSA) specimens, and the Nazlet Khater mandible , which are different from modern sub saharan africans. Furthermore, the results suggest that variability between African populations during the Neolithic and Protohistoric periods was more pronounced than the range of variability observed among recent African and Levantine populations."[4]
The Nazlet Khater 2 skeleton possesses two plesiomorphic features in its mandible, which are not found among coeval, anatomically modern, humans. This suggests that the ancestors of the specimen may have interbred with neighboring late archaic humans.[5] At Nazlet Khater 4 to the southeast, Upper Paleolithic axes, blades, burins, end scrapers, and denticulates were also excavated. The site has been radiocarbon dated to between 30,360 and 35,100 years ago.[3] The similarities between NK2 and Upper Paleolithic European samples may indicate a close relationship between this Nile Valley specimen and European Upper Paleolithic modern humans.
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Yes, there are a couple of threads on the Nazlet Khater man and also about the different facial reconstructions of him. I noticed in the video they showed Ancestral Whispers reproduction, but not Cicero Moraes version. Both reconstructions are made from photos and not any cast of the skull.
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The REAL Reason People Say Egypt Was "Multiethnic"
Mr. Imhotep
quote: Have you ever heard that ancient Egypt was Multi-ethnic? Do you really know wha it means? Because that's not what they are trying to make us believe. The motivations behind that categorization are way darker than you think. And In this video, I am going to reveal it to you. Keep in mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg. We will go deeper in future videos. So, make sure to subscribe and activate the bell if you don't want to miss the second part of this message. And please no racism in the comments.
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Sometimes I wonder over some of the YouTube African Americans (and other foreigners) who make video after video about ancient Egypt and it´s racial affiliations. How many of them have actually been to Egypt? How many have relatives there or some other kind of affiliation to the country? How many have worked there (especially in the fields of Egyptology, archaeology or anthropology) or studied there?
If they actually been there and worked there it could be interesting to hear about their experiences, how were they treated, or what kind of studies or research they did conduct there. Which ancient sites and museums did they visit, and so on. Some of them only talk about racial issues and not so much else.
One or another seems to have taken matters to the extreme like @ShezmuOperative who thinks that todays modern Egyptians ought to be deported out of Africa:
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A lecture with professor Fayza Haikal from Egypt about continuity between ancient Egyptian culture and modern Egypt.
quote: Fayza Haikal, Professor of Egyptology, The American University in Cairo
Egypt’s recorded history spans six thousand years and is, therefore, one of the longest and best known in the world. Today, Egyptians practice several religious, artistic, and social traditions that can be traced to ancient Egypt, demonstrating the power and longevity of cultural memory. Drawing on research in archaeology, Egyptian art, writing, and culture, Fayza Haikal examines Egyptian society’s cultural expressions from antiquity to the present, focusing on language, spirituality, superstitions, funerary traditions, and folklore.
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Interesting story of Fayza Haikal, first woman to get a PHD in Egyptology from Egypt. In the context of Egyptology as a discipline primarily being dominated by Europeans and European institution, including the American University in Cairo.
quote: Haikal was born on April 11, 1938; her father was a prominent Egyptian politician. She attended the Lycee Français du Caire as a child, and studied Egyptology at the Faculty of Arts at Cairo University from 1956–60, where she received her BA. After graduating, she successfully applied for a scholarship to study Egyptology abroad; in the following year, before taking up the scholarship, she worked on the UNESCO Campaign in Nubia to save monuments at risk from the construction of the Aswan Dam, first being responsible for revising the campaign's epigraphic material for publication, and then conducting fieldwork in Nubia. Egyptian women had not previously been allowed to travel to work archaeological excavations, and Haikal describes herself as having 'paved the way for women Egyptologists to work in Nubia". From 1961-65, Haikal studied in the UK, initially at University College London, where her supervisor, W.B. Emery, on being asked to include her in his team working in Nubia, replied "I don't take girls in my team". She transferred to St Anne's College, Oxford University, in 1962, where she studied for a D.Phil. on Egyptian papyri at the British Museum. She gained her doctorate in 1965, becoming the first Egyptian woman to earn a Ph.D. in Egyptology.
After graduating, Haikal returned to Cairo to teach Egyptology, but subsequently moved to various countries due to her husband's job as a diplomat (she had married Mohamed Abdel Halim Mahmoud just before graduating with her D.Phil.; he died in 1979); during his posting to Italy she taught at La Sapienza University of Rome. In the 1980s she became Professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo. Her archaeological work in this position included directing a project to protect archeological sites during the construction of the Peace Canal in northern Sinai. In 1988, she was elected as the first woman President of the International Association of Egyptologists. Haikal has also been a visiting professor at La Sapienza in Rome and the Sorbonne (both 1994) and Charles University in Prague (2000), and in 2006-2007 was the Blaise Pascal Chair of Research at the Sorbonne.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, there are a couple of threads on the Nazlet Khater man and also about the different facial reconstructions of him. I noticed in the video they showed Ancestral Whispers reproduction, but not Cicero Moraes version. Both reconstructions are made from photos and not any cast of the skull.
The point is that the Nazlet Khater remains are upwards of 20 thousand years older than the creation of the Nile Valley Kingdom and therefore not "Egyptian". Just like 20,000 year old remains in the UK aren't "English" because England didn't exist.
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Sometimes in daily speak we still talk about ancient peoples as if they belonged to certain countries, even if those countries did not exist at that time. You can see it in Europe, in China or wherever you go. For example here in Sweden we have books titled "The first Swedes" or in France you can find books about "The prehistory of France" and similar, even if Sweden as a country did not exist 12 000 years ago or France 25 000 years ago.
Sometimes we just use the modern names because we do not know what those ancient peoples called themselves or the place they lived in.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Sometimes in daily speak we still talk about ancient peoples as if they belonged to certain countries, even if those countries did not exist at that time. You can see it in Europe, in China or wherever you go. For example here in Sweden we have books titled "The first Swedes" or in France you can find books about "The prehistory of France" and similar, even if Sweden as a country did not exist 12 000 years ago or France 25 000 years ago.
Sometimes we just use the modern names because we do not know what those ancient peoples called themselves or the place they lived in.
Yes, true, but generally they are given names of the geographic areas they are found in order to distinguish them from more recent historical cultures. Hence "Cheddar Man" is named after the Cheddar Gorge where the remains were found. Or Neanderthals being named after the Neanderthal Valley. The Nazlet Kater remains are named after the town of the same name near where they were found. The Taramsa Child also named the same way. Plus a lot of the research is in determining how those various sites relate to other sites and populations at different times.
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Yes, here is it also common to give ancient individuals name after the place they were found, like "The Barum woman" or the "Österöd woman": Sometimes though they can give other names like "the Rasberry girl", a neolithic woman whose last meal consisted of rasberries. Another example is the "Hedgehog girl" a neolithic girl named after remains of hedgehog in her grave.
Then some get nicknames too like "Naia" from Mexico or "Luzia" from Brazil.
People from ancient cultures can also get collective names after the archaeological culture they belonged to, like "the Battle axe people".
So how one calls ancient individuals are not always consistent. In archaeological reports they often just get a number, or a geographic designation combined with a number.
But in newspapers or popular books, and even in textbooks one sometimes can se people being referred to as ancient Swedes, or Brazilians and so on.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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One or another seems to have taken matters to the extreme like @ShezmuOperative who thinks that todays modern Egyptians ought to be deported out of Africa:
One or another seems to have taken matters to the extreme like @ShezmuOperative who thinks that todays modern Egyptians ought to be deported out of Africa:
Why do you keep promoting this guys stuff if he is a fraud? Is anybody here a supporter of his views?
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An education for who and on what? Why does anybody need to know about some random individual spouting half truths or falsehoods on social media? How does that help you in your discussions here on this forum when it comes to facts and evidence?
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Because he is not alone, some fringe Afrocentrics are swamping the net with their shenanigans and also harassing others. It can be worth to adress.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Because he is not alone, some fringe Afrocentrics are swamping the net with their shenanigans and also harassing others. It can be worth to adress.
I only see you making claims about fringe Afrocentrics "swamping the net" using one person. The point being why are you following these people if they are frauds and fringe? If nobody else is posting these people or following them here, why are you posting them?
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Well, I actually followed other people and could not avoid to see some of these fringe types hounding them.
This has been going on for years, I first came in contact with the phenomena when some of these fringe Afrocentrics harassed Native Americans who tried to defend their culture. Some of the worst fringe types even went in on peoples messenger and wrote slurs and acted threatening.
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But again, if they are frauds why are you posting them HERE as if what they think is relevant when nobody here that I know of is following them or promoting them? This thread is about Egyptian telling Egyptian history and sounds like you just need to continually bring in random folks on social media into every thread in order to promote a narrative. If you are following and paying attention to people who you claim are frauds, then that is a you problem. There is all kinds of information on the internet about every topic. Certainly most people are not going to follow something that is fraudulent vs something that is factual. And by the way, how come you so far have found only 1 actual native Egyptian discussing ancient Nile Valley history. Where are all these Egyptians all over the net discussing their own history, as opposed to all these so-called "fringe Afrocentrics" you keep obsessing over and following?
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You do not have to repeat everything, your arguments do not get more valid because you repeat them. It just getting monotonous.
quote:if they are frauds why are you posting them HERE as if what they think is relevant when nobody here that I know of is following them or promoting them?
Actually some posters here have now and then also posted claims that are as ridiculous as some of the posts I see on other social media.
quote:This thread is about Egyptian telling Egyptian history and sounds like you just need to continually bring in random folks on social media into every thread in order to promote a narrative
I wanted to point out some of the problems Egyptians can face when they defend their own culture. It is relevant.
quote: If you are following and paying attention to people who you claim are frauds, then that is a you problem. There is all kinds of information on the internet about every topic. Certainly most people are not going to follow something that is fraudulent vs something that is factual. And by the way, how come you so far have found only 1 actual native Egyptian discussing ancient Nile Valley history. Where are all these Egyptians all over the net discussing their own history, as opposed to all these so-called "fringe Afrocentrics" you keep obsessing over and following?
I have in the thread about spreading falsehood to the children mentioned fringe Afrocentrics making ridicolous claims about Ancient Americas.
I just see similar patterns online with fringe people making weird claims about Egypt, and other parts of the world.
Concerning Egyptians I posted videos already with Egyptian scholars like Zahi Hawass and Fayza Mohamed Hussein Haikal, even if it was in other threads. In the thread about Netflix Cleopatra I posted some actual Egyptians and their reactions concerning the film. You may have missed those posts.
In this thread I came to focus on Kemet Queen. Otherwise you can check the thread about her presenting statues from the tomb of Meketre to get an example of fringe people posting on her threads.
Seems you just want to diminish the problem with fringe Afrocentrics online trying to distort other peoples history and even harassing people. As if it is wrong to adress their antics.
If you want to see Egyptians discussing these issues you can check out Egyptian History Defenders on Twitter, or Sekhmet on YouTube, so Kemet Queen is not the only Egyptian online discussing Egyptian history and Afrocentrism.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Here is another Egyptian who discusses the Netflix Cleopatra and also adresses the curious issue of so many African Americans obsessing over Egypt instead of taking an interest in their own cultural heritage, that of Western and Central Africa.
You do not have to repeat everything, your arguments do not get more valid because you repeat them. It just getting monotonous.
quote:if they are frauds why are you posting them HERE as if what they think is relevant when nobody here that I know of is following them or promoting them?
Actually some posters here have now and then also posted claims that are as ridiculous as some of the posts I see on other social media.
quote:This thread is about Egyptian telling Egyptian history and sounds like you just need to continually bring in random folks on social media into every thread in order to promote a narrative
I wanted to point out some of the problems Egyptians can face when they defend their own culture. It is relevant.
quote: If you are following and paying attention to people who you claim are frauds, then that is a you problem. There is all kinds of information on the internet about every topic. Certainly most people are not going to follow something that is fraudulent vs something that is factual. And by the way, how come you so far have found only 1 actual native Egyptian discussing ancient Nile Valley history. Where are all these Egyptians all over the net discussing their own history, as opposed to all these so-called "fringe Afrocentrics" you keep obsessing over and following?
I have in the thread about spreading falsehood to the children mentioned fringe Afrocentrics making ridicolous claims about Ancient Americas.
I just see similar patterns online with fringe people making weird claims about Egypt, and other parts of the world.
Concerning Egyptians I posted videos already with Egyptian scholars like Zahi Hawass and Fayza Mohamed Hussein Haikal, even if it was in other threads. In the thread about Netflix Cleopatra I posted some actual Egyptians and their reactions concerning the film. You may have missed those posts.
In this thread I came to focus on Kemet Queen. Otherwise you can check the thread about her presenting statues from the tomb of Meketre to get an example of fringe people posting on her threads.
Seems you just want to diminish the problem with fringe Afrocentrics online trying to distort other peoples history and even harassing people. As if it is wrong to adress their antics.
If you want to see Egyptians discussing these issues you can check out Egyptian History Defenders on Twitter, or Sekhmet on YouTube, so Kemet Queen is not the only Egyptian online discussing Egyptian history and Afrocentrism.
The point is that you have joined a forum with real people who study and engage in discussion about history in Africa and the Nile Valley. So why don't you engage with real people who can reply to you directly on their views instead of bringing up random people on the internet that are not on this forum? These random people cant reply to you or discuss anything with you because they aren't here. It just sounds like you are desperate to try and make a stereotype of African scholarship being full of frauds and dishonest people, because you dont want to engage with anybody in a real actual discussion on anything. And the same goes with the discussion of Olmecs, where I showed you that the idea of African Olmec originated with the Spanish and other Europeans who discovered them, but you still persist in trying to distort reality and pretend it was all made up by Afrocentrics.
As for Egyptians discussing the ancient history of the Nile, most Egyptians aren't interested in it as I posted earlier from an actual Egyptian Egyptologist. Sure, they may speak out about Cleopatra, but generally you won't see them on youtube talking about the ancient Nile, especially not in English. But if you can find some that would be nice.
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Yes, the idea of African Olmecs was invented by Europeans, but today no serious scholar (European or otherwise) upholds that idea, just some Afrocentric extremists and some other fringe people. African Olmecs are not a part of modern academic scholarship. I know some people who actually work as archaeologists in Mesoamerica (and other parts of America) and they just laugh at the thought that there are people still upholding that old myth.
As I showed there are Egyptians debating history, both Cleopatra but also other aspects of it. I just mentioned Egyptian history Defenders on Twitter and the YouTube channel Sekhmet which has a connection to them. They talk about Egyptian history and about Afrocentrism.
Otherwise you can not know so much about what Egyptians, especially young people discuss or what interests they have. Or have you been there and been able to interview them?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, the idea of African Olmecs was invented by Europeans, but today no serious scholar (European or otherwise) upholds that idea, just some Afrocentric extremists and some other fringe people. African Olmecs are not a part of modern academic scholarship. I know some people who actually work as archaeologists in Mesoamerica (and other parts of America) and they just laugh at the at the thought that there are people still upholding that old myth.
That idea was still supported by various European scholars right up to the 90s and 2000s. And it mostly got abandoned in the era of DNA research. And there are still folks who believe in bigfoot on social media as well. So just claiming that some random individuals on the internet represents "African scholarship" is the problem, because it doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: As I showed there are Egyptians debating history, both Cleopatra but also other aspects of it. I just mentioned Egyptian history Defenders on Twitter and the YouTube channel Sekhmet which has a connection to them. They talk about Egyptian history and about Afrocentrism.
Otherwise you can not know so much about what Egyptians, especially young people discuss or what interests they have. Or have you been there and been able to interview them?
I literally just posted an actual Egyptian Egyptologist stating point blank that most Egyptians don't care about the ancient past. You just proved it in that most of these Egyptians are responding to the Cleopatra TV show but were not discussing the ancient Nile before that. But instead of addressing that obvious fact you turn and ask me whether I have been to Egypt. Does it matter? No. Becuase we are talking of social media and the biggest issue impacting what you see on social media is language. And unless you speak arabic and have the arabic locale set in your browser or operating system, you won't see the majority of content from Egyptian social media. The point is most Egyptians are discussing things related to their lives in the modern day and or more recent history after ancient Kemet.
Again, the point here is that it was the Egyptian state either under the Ottomans or otherwise that gave away much of the ancient artifacts and allowed them to sit buried in the sand.
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Well, I have a friend who worked in Mexico for 30 years now and not even when he first went there any serious scholar upheld that idea, since they just did not find any tangible evidence on Africans in the Americas in precolumbian times.
There were perhaps some old, excentric out of date scholar but the consensus already then were that the Olmec culture, and other similar cultures were autochthonous indigenous developments.
I also remember when I studied archaeology in the university there were never mentioned any Africans in ancient Americas. Also when I worked in a museum that had, among many other things, precolumbian American artifacts none of the experts even mentioned the idea of ancient Africans. So since long time most Americanists have considered such ideas being fringe ideas.
Anyway, even if the fringe elements who forward the African Olmec myth (and similar ideas) are few they are rather loud. Maybe they are getting fewer though, I do not encounter them as often today as I did a couple of years ago. Hopefully also fewer and fewer people take their claims seriously.
Otherwise eccentric scholars, or scholars who did not follow the latest research also have claimed that the ancient Olmecs had affinities with China. Non scholars have also speculated about Middle Eastern or European affinity. Seems everyone wants to be an Olmec.
-- If one Egyptian say one thing so another can say something different. There are many voices in a country.
There are always a group of people in every country who like history, and now with social media that group grows. Same in USA or Sweden most people are not history buffs, but still enough many to uphold a discussion.
And you can still not know exactly how the history interest in Egypt is until you been there and asked people. Everything else will be second hand information.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, I have a friend who worked in Mexico for 30 years now and not even when he first went there any serious scholar upheld that idea, since they just did not find any tangible evidence on Africans in the Americas in precolumbian times.
There were perhaps some old, excentric out of date scholar but the consensus already then were that the Olmec culture, and other similar cultures were autochthonous indigenous developments.
I also remember when I studied archaeology in the university there were never mentioned any Africans in ancient Americas. Also when I worked in a museum that had, among many other things, precolumbian American artifacts none of the experts even mentioned the idea of ancient Africans. So since long time most Americanists have considered such ideas being fringe ideas.
How does that change the point that the idea of African Olmecs came from Europeans, you know the ones who invaded and destroyed the indigenous civilizations there? And yes, some still do believe it, whether it is labeled as fringe or not. The point being this is not unique to or originate with so-called Afrocentrics.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Anyway, even if the fringe elements who forward the African Olmec myth (and similar ideas) are few they are rather loud. Maybe they are getting fewer though, I do not encounter them as often today as I did a couple of years ago. Hopefully also fewer and fewer people take their claims seriously.
The main Afican scholar in America who promoted the idea of the African Olmecs was Ivan Van Sertima. And a lot of his work followed on that of the Europeans, with the book being written in 1976 and then followed up on in 1998 with another book Early America Revisited in 1998. But then he died in 2009. Not sure how he would have modified his points in light of more recent data. But outside Van Sertima, there are hardly any Africana scholars today that I know of who are promoting this like he did. And certainly most on this forum have not promoted that idea either, because all Africans engaged in historical study do not think alike or have the same views. So I don't know what "loud" people you are talking about on social media because I certainly haven't heard of them.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Otherwise eccentric scholars, or scholars who did not follow the latest research also have claimed that the ancient Olmecs had affinities with China. Non scholars have also speculated about Middle Eastern or European affinity. Seems everyone wants to be an Olmec.
Just like any other topic on social media you can find a wide range of views from many different angles. That doesn't mean that because it is on social media that everybody believes it.
As opposed to the heyday of Afrocentrism in the late 80s and early 90s when social media was just getting started and nowhere like today. Most communication back then was in person, via books or VHS and that is when Afrocentric scholars became well known to the wider world. And contrary to your position, most of their arguments have not been necessarily debunked, especially when it comes to Africa proper.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: -- If one Egyptian say one thing so another can say something different. There are many voices in a country.
There are always a group of people in every country who like history, and now with social media that group grows. Same in USA or Sweden most people are not history buffs, but still enough many to uphold a discussion.
And you can still not know exactly how the history interest in Egypt is until you been there and asked people. Everything else will be second hand information.
So are you going to argue on how interested the people of Egypt are in ancient history and have you been there seeing as how you opened the thread? I am not saying it is a bad thing because obviously the history of the Nile doesn't belong to Europe. However, before France invaded Egyptians were not concerned about the ancient past. That is just an obvious fact. They may be more concerned about it today because tourism related to that past is a big part of the economy, but that is a recent occurrence.
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quote:originally posted by Doug M How does that change the point that the idea of African Olmecs came from Europeans, you know the ones who invaded and destroyed the indigenous civilizations there? And yes, some still do believe it, whether it is labeled as fringe or not. The point being this is not unique to or originate with so-called Afrocentrics.
Why do some Afrocentrics uphold old racist notions that even the Europeans abandoned? Are they not aware about the destruction of Native American civilisations? For many Native Americans their history is among the last things they have left. And then some Afrocentrics also chomps into to the plunder party, and since they can not steal land they try to steal history. Have they not any culture or history of their own?
quote:The main Afican scholar in America who promoted the idea of the African Olmecs was Ivan Van Sertima. And a lot of his work followed on that of the Europeans, with the book being written in 1976 and then followed up on in 1998 with another book Early America Revisited in 1998. But then he died in 2009. Not sure how he would have modified his points in light of more recent data. But outside Van Sertima, there are hardly any Africana scholars today that I know of who are promoting this like he did. And certainly most on this forum have not promoted that idea either, because all Africans engaged in historical study do not think alike or have the same views. So I don't know what "loud" people you are talking about on social media because I certainly haven't heard of them.
Ivan Van Sertima was not an expert on Native American cultures, archaeology or anthropology. His ideas met hard critique already when his book came out in the 1970s. And today his ideas are rather outdated. It is weird that some people still try to keep his ideas alive online. But there will always be fringe people and pseudo scholars. Many people also believe in Von Dänikens writings, so pseudo history and pseudo science seems hard to get rid of.
Van Sertima has also some followers who also written books but it seems they never became as successful as Van Sertima himself. Maybe some of them were to far off with too outlandish claims.
I have been in some Native American groups that debunked some of the bs regarding African Olmecs and similar theories and we saw many examples of Afrocentric pseudo amateur scholars who was not only loud, but some times even threatening and very racist. But we reported some of the worst so they got kicked out from YouTube, Facebook and other platforms they haunted.
But still today one can find fringe videos on YouTube and groups on Facebook and accounts on Twitter and other social media which promote that kind of pseudo science. But it seems they do not dare to be so threatening anymore because they know that they will get kicked out.
quote:Just like any other topic on social media you can find a wide range of views from many different angles. That doesn't mean that because it is on social media that everybody believes it.
As opposed to the heyday of Afrocentrism in the late 80s and early 90s when social media was just getting started and nowhere like today. Most communication back then was in person, via books or VHS and that is when Afrocentric scholars became well known to the wider world. And contrary to your position, most of their arguments have not been necessarily debunked, especially when it comes to Africa proper.
There are of course different grades of Afrocentrics, some are actual academic scholars, but many of the fringe people online are just pseudo scholars with their own home made theories, not more serious than Von Däniken and company.
quote:o are you going to argue on how interested the people of Egypt are in ancient history and have you been there seeing as how you opened the thread? I am not saying it is a bad thing because obviously the history of the Nile doesn't belong to Europe. However, before France invaded Egyptians were not concerned about the ancient past. That is just an obvious fact. They may be more concerned about it today because tourism related to that past is a big part of the economy, but that is a recent occurrence.
I am no expert on Egyptians interest in history but I have some contacts there and they say the history interest is rising, especially among younger people. Just as other countries also Egypt teach history in school, and at least some young people are getting interested. But tourism and the international interest in Ancient Egypt is of course also a factor. And also Internet since also Egyptians today communicate with the outer world.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Why do some Afrocentrics uphold old racist notions that even the Europeans abandoned? Are they not aware about the destruction of Native American civilisations? For many Native Americans their history is among the last things they have left. And then some Afrocentrics also chomps into to the plunder party, and since they can not steal land they try to steal history. Have they not any culture or history of their own?
But you are the one following these people right? Nobody forced you to follow them and you are the one listening to them correct? So I would ask the question why you are following what they say? Do you hear me whining about the racists on stormfront or other web sites that promote that kind of pseudo science? I don't go there because there is nothing to go there for. It just seems to me like you want to promote the idea that all Africans talking about African history are frauds as opposed to simply the fact that social media is a tool that can be used by anybody and therefore will have a range of opinions and views on everything.
It just sounds like to me you are trying hard to avoid serious African scholarship in order to slander all African scholars as frauds by constantly using random folks on social media.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Ivan Van Sertima was not an expert on Native American cultures, archaeology or anthropology. His ideas met hard critique already when his book came out in the 1970s. And today his ideas are rather outdated. It is weird that some people still try to keep his ideas alive online. But there will always be fringe people and pseudo scholars. Many people also believe in Von Dänikens writings, so pseudo history and pseudo science seems hard to get rid of.
Van Sertima has also some followers who also written books but it seems they never became as successful as Van Sertima himself. Maybe some of them were to far off with too outlandish claims.
And he was the main Afrocentric scholar who discussed the topic and made it part of the mainstream debate over Afrocentrism. Since then, few Africana scholars have been as outspoken on such things as African Olmecs. He is 1 scholar is the point yet you keep trying to make the case that somehow all African scholars have the same views as him. No they don't. Again, you seem more concerned about promoting certain voices you claim represent all African scholarship as if African scholars are a monolith and all believe the same thing when that isn't the case. And what's worse, you make it seem as if only African scholars engage in pseudoscience when we know for a fact this has been a hallmark of European Eurocentric scholarship for quite a long time.
Not only that, but there have been multiple European studies showing that the natives of the Americas were always diverse, some of whom have always had phenotypes similar to some Africans, people from the Pacific and parts of Southern/Southeastern Asia. Not to mention the Bonampak murals which were painted by the natives themselves showing them to be quite dark as expected from populations living in tropical environments. Suffice to say the diversity of ancient indigenous Meso Americans is an established fact of science, even without direct contact with ancient Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I have been in some Native American groups that debunked some of the bs regarding African Olmecs and similar theories and we saw many examples of Afrocentric pseudo amateur scholars who was not only loud, but some times even threatening and very racist. But we reported some of the worst so they got kicked out from YouTube, Facebook and other platforms they haunted.
Again, the core idea of African Olmecs came from Europeans. You keep going in circles determined to make it seem as if it came from African scholars, but then omit all the pseudo science Europeans have promoted about American history. Not to mention the fact that they have stolen or destroyed so much of that history. Which they have also done world wide, but according to you the main problem is "Afrocentrics".
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But still today one can find fringe videos on YouTube and groups on Facebook and accounts on Twitter and other social media which promote that kind of pseudo science. But it seems they do not dare to be so threatening anymore because they know that they will get kicked out.
And there is fringe pseudo science from Europe and Asia and everywhere else. I just find it odd that you seem so obsessed with talking about random "Afrocentrics" on this forum when nobody else seems to be mentioning them.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: There are of course different grades of Afrocentrics, some are actual academic scholars, but many of the fringe people online are just pseudo scholars with their own home made theories, not more serious than Von Däniken and company.
There is only one meaning of Afrocentric, which means scholarship centered on Africa as the birthplace and origin of human beings, human culture and civilization. So there are no "grades" of Afrocentrics. The main reason why Afrocentrics caused controversy in the 1990s and even before the term Afrocentric, is because of the Nile Valley. At the core of this debate has always been the issue of Africa as the birthplace of human civilization, culture, language and everything else. Eurocentrics are those who promote Europe or Eurasia as the origin of human culture, language, civilization and everything else which has always been at odds with reality. And this is the basis of the core arguments against Afrocentrism which always revolves around the Nile Valley. It isn't about Olmecs or anything else and it isn't about how good the scholarship is, as opposed to the fact that it goes against European Eurocentric domination of the study and dissemination of African history. Again, you seem to just want to lump all people together just because they call themselves Afrocentrics as somehow the same when they aren't. But on the other hand, you ignore all the Eurocentric pseudo science that is also all over social media as if somehow that doesn't also exist. Meaning that all kinds of pseudo science exists from all parts of the planet, including Europeans, but you simply don't want to discuss any serious history as opposed to focusing on random folks on social media. Are you interested in getting to the facts or are you wasting your time worrying about random folks on social media?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I am no expert on Egyptians interest in history but I have some contacts there and they say the history interest is rising, especially among younger people. Just as other countries also Egypt teach history in school, and at least some young people are getting interested. But tourism and the international interest in Ancient Egypt is of course also a factor. And also Internet since also Egyptians today communicate with the outer world.
OK so you don't follow your own advice and I find it funny you feel the need to speak for other people like Mexicans or Egyptians when you are neither Mexican or Egyptian..... But that is neither here or there.
Anywhere, here is an actual video on Egyptian history from Egypt (in Arabic):
quote: In a study that took many years, we will reveal an aspect of the unknown history, the first history before and after the Flood, to delve into a fundamental truth about the existence of the Pharaohs and their reality at that time, from the origin of the first civilization in the era of Adam, all the way to the era of Mizraim, son of Ham.
To understand the truth about the Pharaohs, we must go back to the first time in the land of ancient Egypt Many scholars of early history before and after Islam did not disagree that Egyptian history goes back tens and tens of thousands of years. From Herodotus, Pliny, and Theodorus of Sicily to Al-Suyuti, Al-Idrisi, Al-Maqrizi, and Ibn Kathir Al-Dimashqi, all of them wrote that the age of the Nile Valley civilization goes back as far as ancient times, and not just a few thousand as is claimed.
In the fifth century BC, the Greek historian Herodotus was traveling among the nations and regions to collect some details about the unknown history from the largest libraries on earth at that time. But when he arrived in Egypt, he was deeply shocked by the antiquity of the first history, not because of the torches of fire that are known today as the pyramids, but because of the whispers of the wise men of the city. Among the Egyptians, their ancient manuscripts narrated that the sun rose twice as often as it set. This sentence was like a puzzle over the years. It was said that it was an astronomical phenomenon that occurred 39,000 years ago, but what was discovered after that proved that Egyptian civilization exceeded fifty thousand years of succession of time.
quote:But you are the one following these people right? Nobody forced you to follow them and you are the one listening to them correct? So I would ask the question why you are following what they say? Do you hear me whining about the racists on stormfront or other web sites that promote that kind of pseudo science? I don't go there because there is nothing to go there for. It just seems to me like you want to promote the idea that all Africans talking about African history are frauds as opposed to simply the fact that social media is a tool that can be used by anybody and therefore will have a range of opinions and views on everything.
It just sounds like to me you are trying hard to avoid serious African scholarship in order to slander all African scholars as frauds by constantly using random folks on social media.
I mostly do not follow them, but I still run into them since I follow others.
I do not say that all Africans who write about African history are frauds. Actually my first encounters with fringe Afrocentrics were about some of them trying to usurp Native American cultures. It was first later I saw that some of them also behaved in a similar way against for example Egyptians. And then there were some who claimed to be the true Israelites and so on. Just calling out some of the bs.
quote:And he was the main Afrocentric scholar who discussed the topic and made it part of the mainstream debate over Afrocentrism. Since then, few Africana scholars have been as outspoken on such things as African Olmecs. He is 1 scholar is the point yet you keep trying to make the case that somehow all African scholars have the same views as him. No they don't. Again, you seem more concerned about promoting certain voices you claim represent all African scholarship as if African scholars are a monolith and all believe the same thing when that isn't the case. And what's worse, you make it seem as if only African scholars engage in pseudoscience when we know for a fact this has been a hallmark of European Eurocentric scholarship for quite a long time.
Not only that, but there have been multiple European studies showing that the natives of the Americas were always diverse, some of whom have always had phenotypes similar to some Africans, people from the Pacific and parts of Southern/Southeastern Asia. Not to mention the Bonampak murals which were painted by the natives themselves showing them to be quite dark as expected from populations living in tropical environments. Suffice to say the diversity of ancient indigenous Meso Americans is an established fact of science, even without direct contact with ancient Africans.
Yes, but still Van Sertima have had several followers who write books, but often are their claims even wilder than his, with Mande speaking Olmecs and other stuff.
No one denies that some Native Americans are relatively dark skinned. I have never claimed that they all look exactly similar. When it concerns ancient Maya depictions they vary greatly in color, some are light, some are dark. How much of that variation depends on the peoples actual skin tone and what depends on different art styles or conventions can vary. It is easy to misinterpret art from a culture if you do no know so much about it.
But even if there are variation among some Native Americans it does not mean that ancient Africans came sailing over the sea teaching the poor Natives civilisation, or new languages, or to write. Such fairy tales are debunked since years back. Still some Afrocentric pseudo scholars uphold such ideas. And people like you seem to have a problem when they are challenged.
quote:Again, the core idea of African Olmecs came from Europeans. You keep going in circles determined to make it seem as if it came from African scholars, but then omit all the pseudo science Europeans have promoted about American history. Not to mention the fact that they have stolen or destroyed so much of that history. Which they have also done world wide, but according to you the main problem is "Afrocentrics".
It is irrelevant that such ideas came from Europeans. TODAY most of them who promote these ideas are Afrocentric pseudo scholars. Seems they are unable to free themselves from the old European narratives, while most Europeans have abandoned these specific ideas. Then there are other fringe ideas that some Europeans spout, and I have adressed such things too, both online and in my work as an archeologist. But that has been on other platforms.
When I first came to ES there were a couple of posters here too who also promoted fringe ideas regarding Native Americans, and I have adressed that in some threads. So not even ES has been free from people spreading desinformation.
quote:And there is fringe pseudo science from Europe and Asia and everywhere else. I just find it odd that you seem so obsessed with talking about random "Afrocentrics" on this forum when nobody else seems to be mentioning them.
Since many here on ES are African Americans, or have some kind of African background, ES is a suitable place to talk about different kinds of Afrocentrism, and even challenge the more fringe sorts of it.
Seems you always have a problem when fringe Afrocentrics are called out or discussed. And you often blame all fringe ideas on Europeans. Even if some ideas are old European ones no one forces Afrocentrics to uphold them. Maybe time some of the fringe Afrocentrics start to update their notions and narratives.
quote:OK so you don't follow your own advice and I find it funny you feel the need to speak for other people like Mexicans or Egyptians when you are neither Mexican or Egyptian..... But that is neither here or there.
As I said, I know people in Egypt, but I do not claim expertise on Egypt, as some posters seem to do who never sat their foot there.
Seriously, as Chief X said, why listen to any African Americans trying to explain Egyptian history, or Mesoamerican history? Better to listen to these peoples themselves explaining there own history.
When concerning Native Americans (including Native Mexicans), I was actually invited into a group who debunks Afrocentrics trying to usurp Native history (and also Europeans who deny that they done anything bad to Native Americans). Sometimes even if you are not of a certain people you can have different kinds of ties to them which make you engaged in their causes.
Seems you always have a problem when Afrocentrics are called out. But I do not see you protest when some posters here on ES claim that certain posts from European people about anthropology have a connection with violence against black people
quote:Originally posted by Brandon
Not even West Africa is safe from Eurocentric nuttery.
Seriously, crap like this is dangerous. All this racist pseudoscience polluting the Internet is a major contributor to the recent spate of White supremacists gunning down Black people and other minorities in public spaces. People are dying because of this garbage.
Who knows, maybe Afrocentric fringe writings online poses a threat to Native American people? At least some of them (the Afrocentric extremists) have been rather threatening and racist.
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quote:Fayza Mohamed Hussein Haikal (born 1938) is a professor emerita of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo and the first Egyptian woman to earn a PhD in Egyptology.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I mostly do not follow them, but I still run into them since I follow others.
I do not say that all Africans who write about African history are frauds. Actually my first encounters with fringe Afrocentrics were about some of them trying to usurp Native American cultures. It was first later I saw that some of them also behaved in a similar way against for example Egyptians. And then there were some who claimed to be the true Israelites and so on. Just calling out some of the bs.
But then you come here and open threads and tell us about these frauds and link to their videos when nobody else here is following them. As if this is something people here need to see or know about. IF they are frauds why are you promoting them and linking to their content? Do you see people here posting articles from stormfront or other fringe or racist web sites? It isn't like these so-called Afrocentric frauds are the only people spreading misinformation online, it exists in everything.
And the core issue is that on this forum there have been discussions about the ancient Nile Valley going back decades from all angles. You don't engage in those discussions with people you can address directly you talk about random folks off social media who you cannot directly debate but you bring their content here to discuss which is pointless because those people are not here. You cannot debate them here and they don't represent people here. So why are you constantly finding these random folks to talk about instead of actually engaging with people who are here? Sounds like you don't want to actually engage anybody in any serious discussion about anything.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, but still Van Sertima have had several followers who write books, but often are their claims even wilder than his, with Mande speaking Olmecs and other stuff.
No one denies that some Native Americans are relatively dark skinned. I have never claimed that they all look exactly similar. When it concerns ancient Maya depictions they vary greatly in color, some are light, some are dark. How much of that variation depends on the peoples actual skin tone and what depends on different art styles or conventions can vary. It is easy to misinterpret art from a culture if you do no know so much about it.
The point was that certain features in those tropically adapted features are similar to other populations such as Africans, Pacific Islanders and so forth. This is why the Europeans called the Olmec heads Africans to begin with based on looks. And that same kind of confusion based on looks is the reason for some of those claims that persist.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But even if there are variation among some Native Americans it does not mean that ancient Africans came sailing over the sea teaching the poor Natives civilisation, or new languages, or to write. Such fairy tales are debunked since years back. Still some Afrocentric pseudo scholars uphold such ideas. And people like you seem to have a problem when they are challenged.
You aren't challenging anybody though because they aren't here. Those people are on other social media platforms and you posting links to them here isn't challenging them. It is actually you spreading their content on this forum. If nobody else here is referring to them or using them in any discussion then you posting them means you are spreading their content. And I ask why because nobody else here seems to be following them except you. If they were as "loud" and "significant" as you say, then wouldn't people here be following them or at least have heard of them but they haven't. The only one referring to them on a consistent basis is you. You are the one giving them the attention you claim they don't deserve not anybody else. That is why it sounds disingenuous that you keep claiming they are frauds and spreading disinformation, but you keep posting their content here.
As for "people like me", you are free to refer to my posting history on the Olmecs and Mesoamerica all you like. So you cannot claim that I am against challenging frauds or misinformation without checking that first. What I am against is you promoting misinformation and frauds yourself acting like this is "news" or "content" that people here care about if other people aren't posting it and discussing it. If you are the one posting it then you are the one promoting it is the point I am making.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is irrelevant that such ideas came from Europeans. TODAY most of them who promote these ideas are Afrocentric pseudo scholars. Seems they are unable to free themselves from the old European narratives, while most Europeans have abandoned these specific ideas. Then there are other fringe ideas that some Europeans spout, and I have adressed such things too, both online and in my work as an archeologist. But that has been on other platforms.
It is relevant because it shows these ideas and the racial ideologies based on phenotype did not originate with Afrocentrics. And there still certainly are Europeans who still believe in the idea of Olmecs being of African, European or Asian origin. You just aren't going to social media and finding those people and posting their content here. But they absolutely exist, while you consistently keep going on about these "Afrocentrics" as if they are the only ones spreading misinformation.
Here is an example of European misinformation about the history of the Americas:
Not to mention they even had an entire magazine that was published at one time that often featured misinformation from all parts of the Americas...... And it still is around called "Ancient American Magazine".
And then there are the numerous sites and articles on social media talking about ancient Egyptian ruins in the Grand Canyon.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: When I first came to ES there were a couple of posters here too who also promoted fringe ideas regarding Native Americans, and I have adressed that in some threads. So not even ES has been free from people spreading desinformation.
And for the most part those people represented their own ideas and were engaged in discussions with other people who had differing views. Meaning they were using the forum as it is intended to be used for discussing ideas, even if you disagree. You posting random videos of other people who are not on this forum and not engaged in any discussions here is not doing that. So it is pointless and nobody is "taking your word for it" as to how influential or loud they are because if they were, other people would be referring to them or posting them. And trying to even compare these people to folks like Van Sertima who wrote books, gave lectures and was an actual scholar makes no sense, even if some of his infromation was erroneous.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Since many here on ES are African Americans, or have some kind of African background, ES is a suitable place to talk about different kinds of Afrocentrism, and even challenge the more fringe sorts of it.
Seems you always have a problem when fringe Afrocentrics are called out or discussed. And you often blame all fringe ideas on Europeans. Even if some ideas are old European ones no one forces Afrocentrics to uphold them. Maybe time some of the fringe Afrocentrics start to update their notions and narratives.
You posting videos from other random people on this forum is you promoting misinformation and frauds. Those people are not here to defend or debate their own ideas. You are the one promoting their content and asking people to look at it to see how bad it is. Why? If it is bad and fraudulent why should anybody waste their time watching it? The point is what do YOU think and what are YOUR ideas because that you can discuss and debate all day in defense of your own views and opinions and not someone elses. And again, if you check my posting history on any topic you will see where I stand on numerous subjects. Suffice to say I am against frauds and misinformation which is why I ask YOU why you keep posting them here when nobody else seems to be posting them or talking like that anymore. As you yourself said, those posters are long gone for the most part.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: As I said, I know people in Egypt, but I do not claim expertise on Egypt, as some posters seem to do who never sat their foot there.
Seriously, as Chief X said, why listen to any African Americans trying to explain Egyptian history, or Mesoamerican history? Better to listen to these peoples themselves explaining there own history.
But you aren't following Chief X if you continually keep posting misinformation from Afrocentric frauds now are you? You are doing the exact opposite an then coming here to spread their content to other people.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: When concerning Native Americans (including Native Mexicans), I was actually invited into a group who debunks Afrocentrics trying to usurp Native history (and also Europeans who deny that they done anything bad to Native Americans). Sometimes even if you are not of a certain people you can have different kinds of ties to them which make you engaged in their causes.
Seems you always have a problem when Afrocentrics are called out. But I do not see you protest when some posters here on ES claim that certain posts from European people about anthropology have a connection with violence against black people
I only have a problem with you posting frauds and misinformation when nobody else seems to be discussing them or referring to them. So if the source of such misinformation is you then I have to challenge you on why you are posting it. Make sense?
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