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ON Twitter Space last night a 2021 study was bought to my attention showing that the skulls of African Americans is intermediate between whites and Blacks. This surprised me. I was always under the impression that while there may have been a little divergence the affinity lay overwhelmingly with NC speakers. For our skull shapes to be intermediate between the two reference populations, and our genetics not being intermediate in that regard could there be more to this puzzle then what is being lead on?
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I'm not that familiar with African-American cranial studies, but is this result really surprising considering that African-Americans do have some admixture from Europeans??
Also, if this study is based on morphometric analysis, you do realize that even North Sudanese are also intermediate as are Egyptians. Such a position needn't necessarily be the result of admixture.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes the study did certainly pigeon hole African diversity to that which they assumed was our primary ancestry (though they left out Sahelian populations), but genetically speaking African Americans are NOT intermediate between Africans and Euros. We are OVERWHELMINGLY African genetically speaking around 80%. I would expect a mulatto to have that sort of intermediate positioning.
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^ The problem is that even if Afro-Americans are predominantly African in ancestry which as you correctly stated is over 80%, there were different African groups comprising that ancestry. While the majority of that ancestry comes from Guinea Forest nations, there are some from Central Africa as well as the Sahel as you correctly identified. So yes there is diversity in African ancestry as well. What exactly is your point?
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The study also found that an inter African comparison found that it was the coastal tropical NC populations whom we grouped closer too than the Malian sample (Dogon). So if we're closer to the more "steroetypical African"/True Negroid then how would 10-20% of Euro ancestry create that kind of an intermediate pull.
quote: These people not living the realities of Black folks when we all have a white grandpa down the line because of the sexual violence of slavery from North America to the Caribbean to South America. It was just an article about this that rocked folks around the country as it showed this violence in a way that people could not hide.
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quote: I studied this issue for a while now and i have more of idea what's going on now. Larger number of blacks in the Caribbean do have not any admixture looking at dna samples and you have to careful about what regions or places you talking about. For example for haiti and Jamaica most blacks do not have any white admixture,but in the dominican republic and puerto rico most do. Some blacks in north and south america do not have white admixture or any admixture from other races at all,so let's keep that in mind.
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quote:As a result of centuries of having children with white people, the majority of African Americans have some European admixture, and many white people also have African ancestry. Writer and editor Debra Dickerson questions the legitimacy of the one-drop rule, stating that "easily one-third of black people have white DNA".She argues that in ignoring their European ancestry, African Americans are denying their fully articulated multi-racial identities. The peculiarity of the one-drop rule may be illustrated by the case of singer Mariah Carey, who was publicly called "another white girl trying to sing black", but in an interview with Larry King, responded that—despite her physical appearance and the fact that she was raised primarily by her white mother—due to the one-drop rule she did not "feel white". Recently, the possibility of genetic testing has raised new questions about the way African Americans describe their race.
Majority of black women were not rape in america. There is Major confusion on this. What has a happen is that some were rape(still a minority but large enough) but overtime those descendants intermarry with unmixed blacks and overtime most african americans had some form of white ancestry(from really small to large enough). I saw a statistic recently that show that even before 1890 after slavery most african americans were unmixed. After 1890 the black american population with some form of admixture just happen to out grow the ones that did not have any.
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quote: By the way i saw/read some statistics saying that most black americans before 1890’s were unmixed. The black population that had some form admixture out grew the black american population that were unmixed,and it happen over time in 1800’s and more so the 1900’s. There could be varied reasons for that but in terms of raw numbers for example the unmixed black population was almost close in size to the black population with admixture in the 1930’s for example but that gap got wider faster i think in 1950’s or 60’s.
So it just happens for whatever reasons the unmixed black populations in america grew in numbers slow while those with admixture grew fast. There is number of reasons for that however. Better access to food,healthcare,increased intermarriages in 1950's and 60's and 70's more so etc..but there are still large number of unmixed african americans and more so black americans(if you add other black groups who are not ethnic african americans). The african americans with some form of admixture just happen to be the minority for most of the 1800's and only a slight majority for the last 10 years of the 1800's. For other black americans like african africans(those not descendants of black american slaves) and caribbean black americans most are unmixed by the way.
Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry but that's not talk about as often. I think i read something recently saying it's the majority of white americans. If not then a large minority of white americans,but it's the majority from new recent reports.
It was thought of by some years ago that most black americans had some form of native american dna but as time went on this was not case. Note- there are some who believe that most african amerians are still unmixed blacks and question these dna test,so keep that in mind. Example. 23andMe updates its ancestry reports, but they're still not perfect https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/15/23andme-updates-its-ancestry-reports-but-theyre-still-not-perfect/
Okay the above is real life by the way but when comes to american sci-fi/fantasy superhero comics it's a different story/different universes,laws,history etc.. and most african americans and white americans for example do not have any other race admixture at all.
Here is another example of comics vs real life and how different it is when it comes to background etc.. For latinos most are shown as poc in comics, but in real life in the u.s. census for example most are classified as white. If comics followed the example of what most latinos call themselves in real life then most latinos would be shown as white in comics too,but that's not the case.
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A 2003 study found an average of 18.6% (±1.5%) European admixture in a population sample of 416 African Americans from Washington, DC. Studies of other populations in other areas have found differing percentages of ethnicity. Twenty percent of African Americans have more than 25% European ancestry, reflecting the long history of unions between the groups. The "mostly African" group is substantially African, as 70% of African Americans in this group have less than 15% European ancestry. The 20% of African Americans in the "mostly mixed" group (2.7% of US population) have between 25% and 50% European ancestry.
I trust the MARK D. SHRIVER dna testing ONE MORE. quote- According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears). According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears).
The average african american have little recent european dna,not alot.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the study above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
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Most african americans have some form european admixture(most do not have european admixture in comics,cartoons and characters that are played in live action movies and shows however).
There are questions if most have some form of admixture or not in real life(our universe).Most that have admixture is not a huge admixture anyway(so the recent european admixture had no impact on the phenotype of most african americans) and they look or most look like the ethnic groups they come from in africa anyway. Africans vary from all types of looks.In africa you could see africans(depending on the ethnic group and individuals) that look more like african americans.I should say african americans look more like the africans they come from. Africans have the most diverse look on earth from phenotype to skin tone and size..Some folks forget that. There are unmixed black africans with varied skin tones and some are brown skin to light skin who are unmixed.
Note-when i say european admixture,i am talking from those that look white.Not from first pre-historic europeans were originally black anyway since they further you go back the only humans on earth were black africans.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the some studies above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% and others say 15 to 17% on average depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
This was written by someone else.
quote: QUOTE- The facial composites look well within the range of what can be seen among African-Americans and Nigerians. I don't see how the African-American sample looks more West Indian or Caribbean. You really think that a 10% or so Afro-Caribbean influence would seriously affect any average? Not even a 10% white nordic influence would affect how the average looks like to any significant degree. Any type of admixture is only noticeable at the >25% range.
So it is not even 20%.So it seems that 25% and up recent european admixture is needed to change the phenotype of blacks,but not always of course.Of course unmixed blacks with more of a european look it would be the same for them too. There have been some more recent talk about maybe more african americans have no european admixture at all or maybe most african americans do not have any admixture and a big con job is happening.Another point,it takes at least 25% or up for european admixture to have a impact on african phenotype and skin tone or color,and even then that is not always the case.We all know that unmixed africans vary in skin tone as well.I am just saying.
Most white americans have recent african admixture and some have native american/asian.I wonder why this not mention often.Hmmm.
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Okay the above is real life by the way but when comes to american sci-fi/fantasy superhero comics it's a different story/different universes,laws,history etc.. and most african americans and white americans for example do not have any other race admixture at all.
Here is another example of comics vs real life and how different it is when it comes to background etc..
For latinos most are shown as poc in comics, but in real life in the u.s. census for example most are classified as white. If comics followed the example of what most latinos call themselves in real life then most latinos would be shown as white in comics too,but that's not the case.
quote: Note-in superhero sci-fi- fantasy comics most african americans are unmixed blacks, racism is less then in the real world and alot more blacks live in north africa then they do in the real world but those are different universes,with alot of different history,more advance technological achievements etc.. Of course writers jobs is to focus on superhero stories and not bring in to much real world stories,politics,dna stuff etc.. in comics.Besides the comic industry and many of the characters were created before most folks knew anything about dna etc..,so writers in the past and today still keep simple as possible when it comes to background, history etc.. Of course alot of blacks still live in north africa today,they just the not majority anymore like they were in the past and at one time they were the only population in north africa.
Here is more of summary from the above,you know kinda repeating what i said but shorter form and some added info by the way.
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Not all african americans have european dna.It's about 80's or less.If you include other black americans it's even less than that.Most other black americans who are not african american by the way are unmixed blacks.Anyway some folks believe most ethnic african americans do not have any european dna at all and most really unmixed blacks.Anyway worldwide most blacks are unmixed anyway. In africa most are unmixed and that is where most black live. Note-in fantasy superhero comics like dc,marvel etc..most african/black americans and most whites americans are unmixed anyway.Keep mind those are alternate universe where in dc for example earth 2 south africa was free earlier and in one alternate universe in marvel for example there is a earth that is still all black.
quote: African people have a range of physical variation and don't need any inspiration or mixes from cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics to explain why. Features like narrow noses, thin lips, height etc are all indigenous to Africa. Africa has both the highest phenotypic diversity and the highest genetic diversity in the world and don’t need cold-climate/light skin inspiration for that established fact. All cold-climate/light skinned Europeans and Asiatics are SUBSETS of original African diversity. (Keita 2004; Tishkoff 2002, Ely et al, 2006, Stevanovitch 2004)
and African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. (Keita 1996;Rethelford, 2001; Bianchi 2004, Yurco 1989; Godde 2009)
quote:Originally posted by Big O: ON Twitter Space last night a 2021 study was bought to my attention showing that the skulls of African Americans is intermediate between whites and Blacks. This surprised me. I was always under the impression that while there may have been a little divergence the affinity lay overwhelmingly with NC speakers. For our skull shapes to be intermediate between the two reference populations, and our genetics not being intermediate in that regard could there be more to this puzzle then what is being lead on?
Is this consistent with other cranial studies on African Americans?
from the article
(note term: "secular changes" Secular changes are defined as changes usually linked with environmental factors, unfolding over decades or generations.)
What Are We Really Estimating in Forensic Anthropological Practice, Population Affinity or Ancestry? Published: Jan 18, 2022
Kate Spradleya* ● Richard L. Jantzb
ABSTRACT: While American forensic anthropologists often state that they estimate ancestry, is that what they are really estimating? Although typological terminology, the oids, was replaced with continental terminology, the change was linguistic rather than substantive. The American population is comprised largely of immigrants. Genetic data suggests a high degree of admixture within American population groups. Further, data from documented skeletal collections suggest that Americans have undergone secular changes. Our paper addresses the uniqueness of the American population as compared to ancestral continental and geographic origin groups to address what it is that forensic anthropologists are really estimating, ancestry or something else? We conclude, based on uniqueness of American population groups, that what forensic anthropologists are estimating is best described as affinity, a term that indicates similarity and is not exclusively attached to definitions of race and ethnicity
What is noteworthy in Figure 1 is that African Americans are about equidistant from West Africans and European Americans. This is shown quantitatively in the first column of Table 3. African Americans are slightly more similar to three African groups (Ashanti, Cameroon, and Togo) than to European Americans. But African Americans are slightly more similar to European Americans than they are to three other African groups (Calabar, Dogon, and Gold Coast). The distances show African Americans to occupy the approxi- mate mid-point between Africans and European Americans. The Fst distances in the first row of Table 3 are all around 0.06, presenting the distances as a proportion of total variation attributable to between groups
Using craniometric data and unsupervised clustering, Algee-Hewitt (2016) demonstrated that that the American population can be resolved into three basic clusters, African American, European Americans, and Native American/His- panic. However, she found relatively little within group structure. Algee-Hewitt’s results are also in line with genetic studies. Micheletti et al. (2020) found that over 90% of Afri- can Americans have genes from four major regions of West Africa suggesting that any initial structure resulting from the African Diaspora has been lost. Although the degree of admixture is patterned with higher percentages of African ancestry in the southeastern U.S. (Baharian et al. 2016).
Studies focusing on African and European Americans find that both groups show changes in the same direction with a most notable increase in vault height, particularly in the cranial base (Wescott & Jantz 2005). Secular change can result from a variety of factors including gene flow, improvements in overall health conditions, and plasticity. Given that both African and European Americans have shared the same environment for over several hundred centuries, population structure is still apparent among these two groups. However, our analyses suggest that African Americans are more similar to European Americans than admixture proportions would predict, possibly due to the shared American environment.Although secular change has influenced the overall craniofacial morphology of American population groups, such changes do not obscure the underlying genetic structure (Relethford 2004). Therefore, secular change is not the sole driver of dissimilarity between American groups and ancestral groups. Given the similarities between these two groups and their intermediate or dissimilar positions relative to their ancestral groups, an additional analysis, to highlight and contextualize our results within a forensic anthropological framework, was performed. A discriminant functional analysis (DFA) was performed to assess how well these American groups classify when compared to their ancestral groups. A cross-validated classification matrix is presented in Table6. Only 29 African American misclassify into the African group, only 7 more than classify into the European American group. These results agree with the intermediate position of African American presented in our CV plot. Further, West Africans only misclassify into the African American group. A total of 61 European Americans classify into the European group and 20 as African American. Interestingly, Europeans misclassify into all other groups. Given that 75% of African Americans and 84% of European Americans are correctly classified into their own group, we suggest that the ability to predict group membership can be referred to as affinity
Our three analyses suggest that when forensic anthropologists provide an estimation of group membership within the U.S., they are providing an estimation of population affinity rather than ancestry. The estimation of affinity is more specific than ancestry and considers local variation (e.g., Hispanic American, African American, European American). If we compare craniometric data from an unknown individual to African Americans, Hispanic Americans, European Americans, or other contemporary American groups, then we are estimating which group the unknown is most similar to, and therefore the estimation would be considered affinity. Is the suggested difference between ancestry and affinity trivial? On the surface, perhaps. However, Maier et al. (2021) recently pointed out confusion and inconsistencies with terminology in forensic literature concerning the terms ancestry and race and how they are perceived as interchangeable. They call for discussions of standardization to improve practice and public engagement. Affinity provides more flexible terminology that is dependent on the researcher to fully contextualize and describe the groups used in the analyses. Further, it is more flexible and can be used in areas where population structure exists but is influenced by geographic boundaries, isolation by distance, or cultural assortative mating practices rather than prescribed racial or ethnic variation.
This is pretty interesting making a distinction between affinity and ancestry
Of the secular changes to "craniofacial morphology of American population groups, such changes do not obscure the underlying genetic structure "
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posted
I was going post this as well before you posted the above. Folks forget that african americans are a mixture of varied african groups as well plus you have to consider diet,slave breeding,climate and distance from africa for a long time,mutations.
And still this.
quote:Africans vary from all types of looks.In africa you could see africans(depending on the ethnic group and individuals) that look more like african americans.I should say african americans look more like the africans they come from.
So the african american crania,skin tone,they way they look etc.. because of the above i mention.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Did you read the article in the OP?
Yes,not all of it at first,but after yes. My first post was really replying to posts talking about genetics,admixture etc..and the second one a combination of the those posts and of some of the article i read that you posted.
I went back and read the whole thing after.
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^ Lioness is correct that there are multiple factors that determine morphological features. Ancestry is one factor but another is environment as well. Even a single homogeneous population who leaves descendants in another region of the world, the latter will eventually accumulate some differences in traits from the original population, even more so with a admixture. There have been old studies showing differences in an immigrant population from the ancestral population in Europe.
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