posted
^ There are actually many poems describing skin color. The problem however, is how the words are translated. For example the word hedj is often translated as 'white' or 'fair' but in the original mdu neter the word hedj is written with the determinative for metal which renders the actual meaning of 'shiny' or 'lustrous' which describes another quality of the skin rather than actual complexion. I've come across several poems though where the ideal color is translated as "ruddy" or "reddish" which is much closer since other poetry describes the ideal complexion to be like jasper or carnelian.
A stele inscription from Denderah, describes Isis as: "ruddy woman, endowed with life, sweet of love."
In a Third Intermediate Period (XXV Dynasty, 700BC) hymn, recorded on the Louvre stela C100, there is a description of an Egyptian priestess of the period called Muturdis: Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are actually many poems describing skin color. The problem however, is how the words are translated. For example the word hedj is often translated as 'white' or 'fair' but in the original mdu neter the word hedj is written with the determinative for metal which renders the actual meaning of 'shiny' or 'lustrous' which describes another quality of the skin rather than actual complexion. I've come across several poems though where the ideal color is translated as "ruddy" or "reddish" which is much closer since other poetry describes the ideal complexion to be like jasper or carnelian.
A stele inscription from Denderah, describes Isis as: "ruddy woman, endowed with life, sweet of love."
In a Third Intermediate Period (XXV Dynasty, 700BC) hymn, recorded on the Louvre stela C100, there is a description of an Egyptian priestess of the period called Muturdis: Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna.
Considering the convention of painting women yellow in AE art, it's interesting that their poetry favors mahogany-brown complexions. Whatever the yellow color for women in the paintings represents, it doesn't appear that that was the color Egyptians considered ideal for real women. So much for the Eurocentric interpretation that pale women who stayed out of the sun were the beauty standard!
posted
^ Like our old moderator Ausar, I've said many times that the old Victorian elite view of women staying indoors never made sense considering that the artwork shows peasant women painted yellow working out in the fields alongside the men while the their equally yellow painted elite counterparts accompanied their men doing fishing and fowling or riding in chariots. So they are outdoors with the men but they are still lighter??
As for this ideal 'reddish' complexion, I have yet to see the original medu neter as opposed to the translations. In fact, I recall years back Dr. Sally-Ann Ashton reading one Eurocentric commenter who read a poem describing one Egyptian queen whose name I forgot (either Nefertiti or Hatshepsut) describing her as "rosy" or "ruddy" and claiming that means she was sun-burnt [sic]! LOL Even the audience she read it to burst out in laughter since even most off-white Arabs typically don't get red from sun burn.
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^ What's very interesting is that certain Egyptian terms can be used for more than one color or rather another color that comes close in shade. So for example the word dshr used for 'red' can also be used for brown' and apparently the word kmm used for 'black' can also be used for 'brown' of a much darker shade. This is exactly why it's always important to look at the original text and not rely solely on translators.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are actually many poems describing skin color. The problem however, is how the words are translated. For example the word hedj is often translated as 'white' or 'fair' but in the original mdu neter the word hedj is written with the determinative for metal which renders the actual meaning of 'shiny' or 'lustrous' which describes another quality of the skin rather than actual complexion. I've come across several poems though where the ideal color is translated as "ruddy" or "reddish" which is much closer since other poetry describes the ideal complexion to be like jasper or carnelian.
A stele inscription from Denderah, describes Isis as: "ruddy woman, endowed with life, sweet of love."
In a Third Intermediate Period (XXV Dynasty, 700BC) hymn, recorded on the Louvre stela C100, there is a description of an Egyptian priestess of the period called Muturdis: Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna.
Jasper figures:
Hatshepsut?
the poem describes her cheek not an overall skin tone but I find the poem description vague
compare the hypothetical: "Red is her skin more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna"
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posted
^ In ancient poetry, describing the color of one part of their body is a reference to their entire body. So for example, when the Greeks refer to Ethiopians as "black footed" does that mean only their feet were black?
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and has been known to be described as flush or "rosy" cheeks. You might think it was impossible for an Egyptian woman but whatever the case is I think this example is poetic and vague as to the exact intended description
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posted
^ That is the common assumption many Eurocentrics make. They assume 'red' means rosy as in a fair (white) skinned person with rosy cheeks. However, considering that Egyptians were dark (melanated) skinned people with even skin tones such assumption would be unlikely. Again, ancient poetry would often describe skin complexion using one part of the body as reference to the rest. You see this when Greeks speak of Egyptians and other Africans having "black limbs". Does this mean only their limbs were black?
Anyway, as the old Schenkel paper I cited above explains, the word dshr which can mean 'red' can also mean 'brown' as in a mahogany type brown. His findings come from word usage in Coptic or Coptic survivals in Egyptian Arabic. Both jasper and henna come mostly in brownish colors and not simply red.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are actually many poems describing skin color. The problem however, is how the words are translated. For example the word hedj is often translated as 'white' or 'fair' but in the original mdu neter the word hedj is written with the determinative for metal which renders the actual meaning of 'shiny' or 'lustrous' which describes another quality of the skin rather than actual complexion. I've come across several poems though where the ideal color is translated as "ruddy" or "reddish" which is much closer since other poetry describes the ideal complexion to be like jasper or carnelian.
A stele inscription from Denderah, describes Isis as: "ruddy woman, endowed with life, sweet of love."
In a Third Intermediate Period (XXV Dynasty, 700BC) hymn, recorded on the Louvre stela C100, there is a description of an Egyptian priestess of the period called Muturdis: Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna.
quote: A stela known to Egyptologists from early in the 19th century, now in the Louvre (C 100), bearing a double cartouche and containing a poetical eulogy of a king’s daughter named Mutirdis, has been the subject of much discussion over several centuries. The author identifies himself by his prenomen Menkheperre, but the second cartouche name is damaged,
beginning with a hieroglypic sign variously read as “ra” or “kh” or “set” or “p”, and ending with a clearly articulated “y”. The intermediate sign is completely obliterated. Both the provenance of the stela and internal criteria have convinced scholars that it originates from the area of Hermopolis, and that it dates to the Ethiopian period. The name was variously read by early scholars as ra-men-y or kh-men-y (cf. Petrie HE III 292-293) but by the middle of the twentieth century was assigned to Pi-ankh-y by no less an authority than Von Beckerath 19 .Even Kenneth Kitchen, the last holdout among Egyptologists specializing in the 3rd Intermediate Period, in the supplement to the 2nd edition of his influential 3rd Intermediate Period (1986), has advised that we should “delete the supposed local king Menkheperre Khmuny rather, one should read Menkheperre Pi(ankh)y on the famous stela Louvre C.100 (i.e. Piankhy himself).” 20 This is no small admission considering the nature of the inscription. For in the body of the text Piankhy appears to identify himself solely by the name Menkheperre, as if that name was sufficient to identify the author. We quote Petrie’s translation of the extant portion of the stela:
Chapter Two The Piankhi Inscriptions: 616-610 B.C. The Babylonian Chronicle
A sweet of love, the prophetess of Hathor, Mutardus A sweet of love unto the king, Menkheperra A sweet of love unto all men, A lovely one to all women, is this royal daughter, A sweet of love, the beautiful of women; A damsel of whom thou hast not seen the like; Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna; Her bosom is more captivating than her arms, ... HE III 293-4.
It is no serious objection that this is the only document linking the name Menkheperre unambiguously with Piankhi. As we have stated earlier, Piankhi is a Nubian title, and as such would have little meaning in an Egyptian context. This stela, erected in honor of an esteemed daughter, perhaps established as a priestess of Hathor in Hermopolis after the conquest of that city, is one of the few Egyptian inscriptions in which the Nubian title was maintained and the only one which preserves Piankhi’s
Menkheperre Ini (or Iny Si-Ese Meryamun) was an Egyptian king reigning at Thebes during the 8th century BC following the last king of the 23rd Dynasty, Rudamun.
Identity
Yoyotte's proposed identification of Menkheperre as the prenomen of King Ini/Iny, was based on his examination of the surviving traces of this king's nomen in the Louvre stela which he believed conformed better with the name Iny than the Nubian Dynasty 25 ruler Pi(ankh)y/Piye. His arguments here are today accepted by virtually all Egyptologists including Jürgen von Beckerath in the latter's 1999 book on royal Egyptian kings' names.
It had been previously suggested that Menkheperre was a prenomen or royal title for Piye but this is undermined by the fact that the Nubian king is known to have employed two other prenomens during his lifetime: Usimare and Sneferre. Barring this, Ini was only a local king of Thebes who ruled Egypt concurrently with Peftjaubast of Herakleopolis and Nimlot of Hermopolis. Ini may have been deposed around Piye's year 20 invasion of Egypt since he does not appear in the latter's year 21 Gebel Barkal Victory stela, but this hypothesis remains to be proven because Piye could well have permitted Ini to remain in power as king of Thebes. In this case, Ini would have been a Nubian vassal in Thebes. Evidence to this effect includes the name of king Ini's daughter, Mutirdis (TT410), and the style of Louvre stela C100 which Kenneth Kitchen dated to the early 25th Nubian Dynasty period.[4] However, all three of Ini's nomen cartouche on his Louvre C100 stela were erased and his figure was partly damaged which may imply that Piye's successor Shabaka removed Ini from power and carried out a damnatio memoriae campaign against his monuments.[5] This would justify the view that Graffito No. 11 was carved not long before the establishment of full Kushite dominion over Egypt by Shabaka who would not have tolerated a native Egyptian king in the important city of Thebes which would pose a threat to the authority of the 25th Nubian dynasty.
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Chapter Two The Piankhi Inscriptions: 616-610 B.C. The Babylonian Chronicle
A sweet of love, the prophetess of Hathor, Mutardus A sweet of love unto the king, Menkheperra A sweet of love unto all men, A lovely one to all women, is this royal daughter, A sweet of love, the beautiful of women; A damsel of whom thou hast not seen the like; Black is her hair more than the blackness of night, More than the fruit of the sloe; Red is her cheek more than the pebble of jasper, More than the crushing of henna; Her bosom is more captivating than her arms, ... HE III 293-4.
I was looking at that stele for the km and dsht glyphs looking at that second row, possibly the kms are next to the seated figure, second and third ones from left seems to be Gardiner B1, female seated with a km glyph by them
A different translation of the same poem:
quote:
Sweet, sweet of love—the priestess of Hathor, Mutirdis. Sweet, sweet of love, says King Menkheperre. Sweet, says men, mistress of love, say women. A princess is she, sweet of love, Most beautiful of women, A lass whose like has never been seen. Her hair is blacker than the black of night than grapes of the riverbank. Her teeth are whiter than bits of plaster than [ … ] in a hn-plant. Her breasts are set firm on her bosom.
Kenneth Kitchen, Poetry of Ancient Egypt, 354-361. 1999
here the translation is for white of the teeth as opposed to jasper.
I see the hedj (white) glyph on the same 2nd row resembling a soon pointed down
position: look at the standing female figure on the left, the big one not a glyph Now follow down at that position to the 2nd row, that spoon looking hedj glyph
Is there a G27 dshr (flamingo) on the right of that row? I'm not sure could also be a G25 or G26, the Ibis, not red. Could it be 'whiter than the flower in a red henna plant' I'm not sure. We can see the brackets there representing uncertainty in the translation
quote: Egyptian-privet (Lawsonia inermis) is a shrub or multi-stemmed tree that can grow from 1.8 to 5 m tall. Also known as the henna tree, it blooms in late spring or early summer with fragrant white flowers.
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