posted
Suppose you would ask where he is from, what will he say? It would be like this: Our ancestors came from the Arabian peninsula to establish the islam in North africa. Our tribe boes back x the son x and x and they end in the Family of the profet Muhammed. In morocco they end in Idris I. Some doesn't have to be Arabic speaking to claim a Sherefian (holy) genealogy to Muhammed's family. They would claim they're simply Arabized.
You think that this would be crazy, but it real!! The following card is an official document given in Morocco, where it states that the owner of that card has a Sherif/holy genalogy, and it applies the people to respect and appreciate its owner. And it is used in juridic cadre:
Western people couln't also belive how people build forums to discuss among "scholars" about the sherifian tribes. In one of those backward forums, people spoke about the Warfala tribe (named as a beber tribe by ibn khaldun), a member stated they are of Berber origin. The great scholars began to search the reality with statements like: "Please search this fact, because it damages their geanalogy". Others stated that the Berbers misuses the ressemblance of the names to falsify the history (although noone of them is Berber). Another member of the Warfala tribe stated that there is a great consipracy against the Warfala to falsify their Sherifian tribe! Not bad for citizen from the republic of alGaddafi.
An "Arab" (Arabized african in fact) here called Awlaadberry is a good example for that backwardness. As a proof of the Arab origin of some Berber tribes, he recalled me that "Ifriqish" conquered Africa, which has to prove that the Berber Arabs are descendents of this legendary conqueror who would conquere Africa/Ifriqya/Tunesia, although Africa is the latinized name "Afer"( masculine) which doesn't look like "Ifriqish" at all.
And now, if you ask a great scholar about a tribe or folk, he would tell you they descent of x and x and then of cham or sem and Noah. Some could even trace the people untill the birth of Adam and Eva. This is every acceptable in the Arab world, and you could find much more in the official education.
But when you tell to someone that the Genetic studies or anthropology said that no racial arab influences are found among them, he tells me that is a "myth", a consipracy against our origin, and why didn't they do their research on other peoples???
The science of history in the Arab world is just a living proof of its backwardness.
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posted
an identity card from Jordon of "Hashimite masters" (the sherif...):
This from Saudia: The same as the moroccan one (respect and appreciate its onwer):
It seems that many backward countries are dealing such card idenitities, and they're all descendents of Ali and Husein...
A Moroccan journalist called "Mostapha Al-alawi" (referring to Ali) said once that the Idrissides (descendents of Ali) are in the millions in Morocco.
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You people have some really serious problems to work out. I would start with scraping the myths.
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The ruling elites in pretty much the entire span of coastal north Africa have attempted to fully convert their nation's national identity into an Arabic one. So this really comes as no surprise. Perhaps this undertaking has had more devastating effect in the north-eastern African countries, where Arab elites have managed to almost completely erase the indigenous identity of locals and substitute it for an Arabic one. Egypt and the northern areas of Sudan come to mind. Libya and the Maghreb countries have managed to resist this change to certain extents, with Tamazight-speaking communities still alive.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I am still trying to figure out why my DNA from my mother and father is in so called "Arab" and "African" lands (Yemen, Oman, Morocco, Tunisian Berbers (Sened, Chenini-Douret, Matmata), Libya (Tuareg, Al-Awaynat), Mauretania, and Pakistan (India). Would this make me an "Arabized African" too?
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It seems clear Neferet. Yemenis and Omanis are both Southern Arabs and many of the Arabs of Morocco and Mauritania are of Yemeni origin through the Bani Maqil who immigrated to the "North African" region. The Tunisian Berber - Yemeni connection could be through the Sanhaja of Tunisia, who though they are called "Berbers", are in fact Himyarite Yemeni Arabs. The Tuareg are from these Sanhaja. Concerning Pakistan, the Yemeni connection could be through the Makrani, who are descended from the Balouch, who are of Yemeni origin from the tribe of Al-Azd. By the way, what's your y-dna haplogroup?
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^ Neferet is a female, as such she carries no Y chromosome which only males would have. So my only question to Neferet is exactly what chromosomes is your ancestry based on? I know mitochondrial DNA is maternal lineage passed from mother to daughter so what is the history of this lineage?
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The test results are based on my mother and father's DNA. My mother's DNA is from the countries I mainly mentioned above. My father's DNA is also found in Oman and other countries within "Africa".
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The Y-DNA Haplogroup from my father is E1b1a7a.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: Tariq,
Maybe you can help with my question?
It seems clear Neferet. Yemenis and Omanis are both Southern Arabs and many of the Arabs of Morocco and Mauritania are of Yemeni origin through the Bani Maqil who immigrated to the "North African" region. The Tunisian Berber - Yemeni connection could be through the Sanhaja of Tunisia, who though they are called "Berbers", are in fact Himyarite Yemeni Arabs. The Tuareg are from these Sanhaja. Concerning Pakistan, the Yemeni connection could be through the Makrani, who are descended from the Balouch, who are of Yemeni origin from the tribe of Al-Azd. By the way, what's your y-dna haplogroup?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Neferet is a female, as such she carries no Y chromosome which only males would have. So my only question to Neferet is exactly what chromosomes is your ancestry based on? I know mitochondrial DNA is maternal lineage passed from mother to daughter so what is the history of this lineage?
Her lineage should be based on her father's y-dna. Or her brother's.
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posted
Mazigh actually Alawi is right the Idrissi are the ones who brought Sufism to North Africa and the Sufi order of North Africa Home is Morroco all the way to Somali.
Al-Ahbsh who have taken Lebenan and palestine by storm are followers of Al-Habashi Al Harari a student of the Idrissi order of Sufi Islam.
But u are right those cards are all bogus i have seen them every where
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Neferet is a female, as such she carries no Y chromosome which only males would have. So my only question to Neferet is exactly what chromosomes is your ancestry based on? I know mitochondrial DNA is maternal lineage passed from mother to daughter so what is the history of this lineage?
Her lineage should be based on her father's y-dna. Or her brother's.
As DJ said, women don't carry Y dna. And no, your CULTURE says it should be based on her fathers lineage. Other cultures, in particular AFRICAN cultures, see things differently, and there is no way of quantifying which one is ''right'', because it is not question of right or wrong.
Seriously, you need to stop imposing your Arab traditions on people here on this forum. You're free to believe that there is no such thing as Africa, and that lineages should be paternal based, but don't state it as fact, because you're not in a realm where you're cultural values and beliefs are shared with other posters you attempt to influence.
You're talking with Africans, and if, as you say, you live in Africa, you should be well aware of the fact that there runs through African cultures a sentiment of high respect for women, unlike in the majority of cultures in the Arabian peninsula. In fact, some researchers argue that ancient female rulers in Arabia are markers of African diffussion.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Why do you keep mentioning me? What is your problem with me exactly? Would you like to debate me?
Sorry, I've no problem with you. I'm mentioning you as example. Pepole here could understand my topic better with using some living examples.
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Mazigh actually Alawi is right the Idrissi are the ones who brought Sufism to North Africa and the Sufi order of North Africa Home is Morroco all the way to Somali.
Thanks, but i don't agree with you. Idriss escaped alone to morocco were he was eventually a client king of the tribe awraba (of algerian origin), and after some 4 years he was impoisoned. He left a unborn baby who became Idriss II. I suppose he didn't live any son, but the Berber tribes claimed so to maintain there "sherifian kingdom", and even if it is no so, this new born among the berber far from arabia had nothing to bring excepts what some scholars would teach him.
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: You're free to believe that there is no such thing as Africa, and that lineages should be paternal based
Exactly. I'm free to believe what I want, so why are you even talking here? I was asked a question and I answered it based on what I believe.
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Sorry, I've no problem with you. I'm mentioning you as example. Pepole here could understand my topic better with using some living examples.
[/QUOTE]
You mention me as an example of what? What is your topic? What is your point exactly? And why are you making guesses about where I'm from and what I am? What's that all about?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Why do you keep mentioning me? What is your problem with me exactly? Would you like to debate me?
Sorry, I've no problem with you. I'm mentioning you as example. Pepole here could understand my topic better with using some living examples.
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Mazigh actually Alawi is right the Idrissi are the ones who brought Sufism to North Africa and the Sufi order of North Africa Home is Morroco all the way to Somali.
Thanks, but i don't agree with you. Idriss escaped alone to morocco were he was eventually a client king of the tribe awraba (of algerian origin), and after some 4 years he was impoisoned. He left a unborn baby who became Idriss II. I suppose he didn't live any son, but the Berber tribes claimed so to maintain there "sherifian kingdom", and even if it is no so, this new born among the berber far from arabia had nothing to bring excepts what some scholars would teach him.
Mazigh,
What color was Idris?
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posted
awlaadberry, It is about the legends and the myths of the "holy" race of the arabs from a backward tribal self-view. and you're an example of an arabized black africann who maintain those legends.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: awlaadberry, It is about the legends and the myths of the "holy" race of the arabs from a backward tribal self-view. and you're an example of an arabized black africann who maintain those legends.
Based on what you call me an "arabized black african"? And what do you mean by "legends and the myths of the 'holy' race of the arabs from a backward tribal self-view"?
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It is a general fact, that the Arabized people (especially of those who lost their unity or didn't had it) believe strongly they're original Arabs who invaded or migrated to the "new countries". If you could correctly imagine how these peoples/tribes changed or ignored their real idetity to adopt another one, you would then understand that it is very difficult to them aknowledge their "arabization". In your case, it is worser, because you believe in myths like afriqach or wat else, and "ancient arabs" who settled in North africa before the islam.
It is a hopeless case. By the way, do you also believe you're of sherifian origin, or are you of oridinary arab origin?
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: It is a general fact, that the Arabized people (especially of those who lost their unity or didn't had it) believe strongly they're original Arabs who invaded or migrated to the "new countries". If you could correctly imagine how these peoples/tribes changed or ignored their real idetity to adopt another one, you would then understand that it is very difficult to them aknowledge their "arabization". In your case, it is worser, because you believe in myths like afriqach or wat else, and "ancient arabs" who settled in North africa before the islam.
It is a hopeless case. By the way, do you also believe you're of sherifian origin, or are you of oridinary arab origin?
I don't know what you are talking about.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: It is hard to understand.
So let's keep it simple. What is the translation of what I asked you to translate? And what color was Idris?
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: You're free to believe that there is no such thing as Africa, and that lineages should be paternal based
Exactly. I'm free to believe what I want, so why are you even talking here? I was asked a question and I answered it based on what I believe.
You don't opinionate, let alone provide logic behind what you opinionate, you state as fact. ''There is no such thing as Africa'', ''it should be paternal''. vs My culture says it should be paternal
Know the difference?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mazigh u are claiming lineage with Idriss or what because im not claiming Idriss as being the father of Tribe or Sect but the Mufti of Sufism in North AFrica and Yes Morrocco is the base for it.
Berbers have nothing to do but become converts of which they were never Muslims to begin with.
Idriss was not a berber and the Berbers wear Islam Very Lightly so I dont think they Had any High Positions in the Islamic World mainly footsoldiers they had no Power in the islamic Rule over parts of Europe.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: You're free to believe that there is no such thing as Africa, and that lineages should be paternal based
Exactly. I'm free to believe what I want, so why are you even talking here? I was asked a question and I answered it based on what I believe.
You don't opinionate, let alone provide logic behind what you opinionate, you state as fact. ''There is no such thing as Africa'', ''it should be paternal''. vs My culture says it should be paternal
Know the difference?
Yes. It's a fact that in history, there is no such thing as "Africa" or "African". That's a fact as far as I know. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. And if you want to trace your origin through your mothers, you are free to do so. And if you want to advise people to trace their lineage through their mothers, do so.
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Berbers have nothing to do but become converts of which they were never Muslims to begin with.
Idriss was not a berber and the Berbers wear Islam Very Lightly so I dont think they Had any High Positions in the Islamic World mainly footsoldiers they had no Power in the islamic Rule over parts of Europe.
Please search who is Idris and who are the Berbers before telling what "you think", because I don't think you know who is Idris nor who the Berbers are; or even you understoond my reply. Is difficult to use google at least??
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: So let's keep it simple. What is the translation of what I asked you to translate? And what color was Idris?
It is about color. This topic was not about color. black or white or... doesn't matter here. But I'll later open a topic to debate with you about the color of the arabs at the time of Muhammed.
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: So let's keep it simple. What is the translation of what I asked you to translate? And what color was Idris?
It is about color. This topic was not about color. black or white or... doesn't matter here. But I'll later open a topic to debate with you about the color of the arabs at the time of Muhammed.
OK. I'm waiting for that topic. Btw, can you read Arabic?
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Mazigh actually i know about Berbers and the Arab Dynasty they fell into. Moulay Idriss al-Akbar u are talking to someone who is muslim and and speaks arabic and sufism is Idrissi.
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