Crania like Jebel Sahaba and Wadi Halfa from Mesolithic Nubia have most likely been misclassified as Negroid. They're really just robust, archaic and generalized, with mandibles adapted for heavy chewing and traits in common with Neanderthals, Australian Aborigines, Khoisans and even Caucasoids.
The Natufians may or may not have had Sub-Saharan African affinities, but that doesn't really matter because they weren't biologically related to the Levantine and Anatolian farmers who spread agriculture to Europe during the Neolithic, despite what some theories have suggested.
Like Mesolithic Nubians, Nazlet Khater Man was archaic and robust, so much so that he may not have been fully modern. But even if he was, the population he belonged to migrated south and west, making it ancestral to Sub-Saharan Africans, not Egyptians, Nubians or anyone outside of Africa.
posted
Oh boy. Here comes another one.. . .or the same. Sammy and Neal can you guys put a stop to this?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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YAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!! Try another bait tactic. This is not interesrting anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: YAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!! Try another bait tactic. This is not interesrting anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
Exactly, Does this boy ever produce any facts? Any substance?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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xyy, it is the statement anyone can make. You guys never back up you points with valid research.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Why does this jester keep coming back to egyptsearch to show his inability and incoherence at comprehending studies? In virtually all morphometric studies, Mesolithic Nubians clustered close with sub-Saharan Africans and never with Europeans, the only traits they shared with any Europeans was robusticity, which was common to all Upper paleolithic and Late Pleistocene crania as per Colin P. Groves. Later on him, lets now concentrate of Mesolithic Nubians and also the Badarians and Nazlet Khater:
In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.
Title Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt Volume 4 of Egyptian prehistory monographs
Author Pierre M. Vermeersch
Editor Pierre M. Vermeersch
Edition illustrated Publisher Leuven University Press, 2002
Note: Site 117 is Jebel Sahaba
quote:Like Mesolithic Nubians, Nazlet Khater Man was archaic and robust, so much so that he may not have been fully modern. But even if he was, the population he belonged to migrated south and west, making it ancestral to Sub-Saharan Africans, not Egyptians, Nubians or anyone outside of Africa
You don't say? If this population only migrated South and West how the hell did Nazlet Khater end up in Upper Egypt/Northern Sudan? Apparently you're not very bright when it comes to reading studies:
Both hypotheses are compatible with the hypothesis proposed by Brothwell (1963) of an East African proto-Khoisan Negro stock which migrated southwards and westwards at some time during the Upper Pleistocene, and replaced most of the local populations of South Africa. Under such circumstances, it is possible that the Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict population of this proto-Khoisan Negro stock which extended as far north as Nazlet Khater at least until the late part of the Late Pleistocene.
Journal of Human Evolution (2000) 39, 269–288
The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations
Please quit embarrassing yourself by saying it didn't migrate north.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: YAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!! Try another bait tactic. This is not interesrting anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
Exactly, Does this boy ever produce any facts? Any substance?
I think "hammer" was created by one of the moderators to "lively up" the place a bit. I mean you have to admit "hammer" does provide good comic relief.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Not to mention the study by Colin P. Groves on Epipaleolithic Nubian crania:
Today the North African and Subsaharan genepools are separated by the Sahara arid zone, a wide sparsely populated region whose people are intermediate morphologically between <<Caucasoid>> and <<Negroid>>. While the late and terminal Pleistocene populations of northern Africa were noticeably more robust than their present day descendants(as were those of Europe), like them they were differentiated into more northerly <<Caucasoid>> and <<Negroid>> morphologies. Yet the transition between these two geographic forms was much further north in the terminal Pleistocene than today; the terminal Pleistocene Nubians and Asselar skull are as <<Negroid>> as are the modern Teita of Kenya; the intermediates today are the Dogon of Mali, but in the terminal Pleistocene the intermediates were the people of Afalou-bou-Rhummel in Algeria.
The Terminal Pleistocene and early Holocene populations of northern Africa C.P. Groves, A. Thorne, Canberra HOMO Vol. 50/3, pp. 249-262 1999 Urban & Fischer Verlag
Refuting more of the lies on your ridiculous blog:
"Complicating things further is the fact that later era Nubia shows clear Caucasoid affinities, which has forced "Negroid Mesolithic" advocates to postulate a population replacement event during the Holocene (the Afrocentrists gloss over this point)."
None of the later Nubians show any clear "Caucasoid" affinities and which "Afrocentrists" postualted population replacement you jester? In fact, it was Joel Irish, not "Afrocentrists" that postulated population replacement, you are clearly making up lies, if thats the case please post examples of "Afrocentrists" glossing over anything like this. At any rate, later Nubians along with the predynastic and Early Dynastic Egyptians were more akin to more southerly African groups than to Europeans and Mediterranean peoples:
Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time. Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002).
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528 (2007) Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:. Independent analyses of skeletal and dental discrete and metric variables and other lines of evidence suggest that the earlier and later Nubian populations represent a biological continuum with no invasion by nonindigenous populations. [...] Therefore, although the similarities between late Pleistocene and west African dental traits are interesting, they are not compelling. From the preponderance of evidence from other studies of craniofacial morphology, biological change, and population history, a model of population continuity appears to fit the evidence best..]
Do you know what that suggests? That the current black-skinned population represent an indigenous development. One that is within the variation of Africans.
quote: It's extremely unlikely that Negroids would have penetrated so far north and east that early in time, and even more so considering that the later Nubians were Caucasoid,
Is this powdered cocaine-speaking?
2) What is a "Negroid/Negro"? What are the cranial features associated with "Negroid", when and where did these cranial features associated with "Negroid" arise, and amongst what group/population of people?
Back them with sources. I want datasets provided as well. Don't be like Fawal, who is nothing but a liar.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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I'm surprised to find that "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" are still being used by some experts despite the anthropological consensus ruling that such terminology is outdated.
I'd like to see Stupid Euro explain how, if historic Nubians were really "Caucasoid", so many ancient Egyptian paintings and wall reliefs depicting them show them with literally black skin and stereotypically "Negroid" features. It's ironic how ancient Egypts' whitewashers like to use the Nubians as proof that the ancient Egyptians were not black while insisting at the same time that the Nubians weren't really black either.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie ****relatively clustered together***** as compared to the other population
This is just suggests that the AE body plan featured a more exaggerated femoral or tibial lengths than other sub-Saharan populations sampled.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: YAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!! Try another bait tactic. This is not interesrting anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
Exactly, Does this boy ever produce any facts? Any substance?
I think "hammer" was created by one of the moderators to "lively up" the place a bit. I mean you have to admit "hammer" does provide good comic relief.
I agree he only shows up after the Head Troll(Afronut, Mig Moe, Glider) gets defeated. He only argues with bait tactics and strawman opinions, simular to Argyle...
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Thanks for creating a topic that enhanced my knowledge of ancient East Africans
You have no idea how much I appreciate the obvious lies. Keep em coming. I learn something everytime I read not only the studies you used to make your own point, but also the other posters responses to you.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Not to mention the study by Colin P. Groves on Epipaleolithic Nubian crania:
Today the North African and Subsaharan genepools are separated by the Sahara arid zone, a wide sparsely populated region whose people are intermediate morphologically between <<Caucasoid>> and <<Negroid>>. While the late and terminal Pleistocene populations of northern Africa were noticeably more robust than their present day descendants(as were those of Europe), like them they were differentiated into more northerly <<Caucasoid>> and <<Negroid>> morphologies. Yet the transition between these two geographic forms was much further north in the terminal Pleistocene than today; the terminal Pleistocene Nubians and Asselar skull are as <<Negroid>> as are the modern Teita of Kenya; the intermediates today are the Dogon of Mali, but in the terminal Pleistocene the intermediates were the people of Afalou-bou-Rhummel in Algeria.
The Terminal Pleistocene and early Holocene populations of northern Africa C.P. Groves, A. Thorne, Canberra HOMO Vol. 50/3, pp. 249-262 1999 Urban & Fischer Verlag
Refuting more of the lies on your ridiculous blog:
"Complicating things further is the fact that later era Nubia shows clear Caucasoid affinities, which has forced "Negroid Mesolithic" advocates to postulate a population replacement event during the Holocene (the Afrocentrists gloss over this point)."
None of the later Nubians show any clear "Caucasoid" affinities and which "Afrocentrists" postualted population replacement you jester? In fact, it was Joel Irish, not "Afrocentrists" that postulated population replacement, you are clearly making up lies, if thats the case please post examples of "Afrocentrists" glossing over anything like this. At any rate, later Nubians along with the predynastic and Early Dynastic Egyptians were more akin to more southerly African groups than to Europeans and Mediterranean peoples:
Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time. Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002).
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528 (2007) Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery
Excellent work Bass. Your ref is a keeper for the archives.
Dental studies confirm the data yielded by skeletal and cranial studies. The inhabitants of ancient Egypt, particularly in the formative era on into the early Dynastic ages, cluster more closely with African populations that with Europeans or Middle Easterners. These Nile Valley populations are continuous and of local origin, with no major contemporaneous migration or replacement events.
[quotes:]
"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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These are petty throwbacks to the very same issues that "Racial Reality" had been obliterated on here repetitively some 5 years ago.
The Mesolithic Nile Valley specimens have little in common with Neanderthals, consistent with the general pattern of marked differences between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens Sapiens, notwithstanding obvious close relationships between the two sub-species. In fact, Neanderthals consistently maintain a considerable distance from early Anatomically modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens, on many elements of the cranio-morphometry and limb-body proportions. Early antomically modern human European specimens, including the formerly so-called "Cro-Magnons", align closer to recent Africans when limb-body proportion indices are assessed.
Natufians of course are expected to show differences from latter "Near Eastern" specimens, because of subsequent demographic processes, but their legacy is live and well in the genes they left behind. Short of DNA sequencing removing Natufians from the traditional "Neolithic farming demic-difussion" markers, their candidacy is very much still alive.
As for Nazlet Kharter, the intro post is so comically devoid of any semblance of logic, considering that it is in fact a Nile Valley specimen; that is where it was actually uncovered, not in "sub-Saharan" areas.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Yes so why the hell is Stupid-Euro (or a cognitively challenged cohort of his) back in this forum spewing the SAME NONSENSE his dumbass was annihilated on 5 years ago??!
ROTFLMAOHPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Yes so why the hell is Stupid-Euro (or a cognitively challenged cohort of his) back in this forum spewing the SAME NONSENSE his dumbass was annihilated on 5 years ago??!
Simple because of the decleration of victory thread [URL=The Ancient Egypt debate should be declared over ]Here[/URL]
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I'm surprised to find that "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" are still being used by some experts despite the anthropological consensus ruling that such terminology is outdated.
I'd like to see Stupid Euro explain how, if historic Nubians were really "Caucasoid", so many ancient Egyptian paintings and wall reliefs depicting them show them with literally black skin and stereotypically "Negroid" features. It's ironic how ancient Egypts' whitewashers like to use the Nubians as proof that the ancient Egyptians were not black while insisting at the same time that the Nubians weren't really black either.
Well Truthcentric, knowing racial Retardology, he would like for you believe, just like C.Loring Brace believes[or once believed] that traits such as limb ratios and skin color that firmly place Nile valley inhabitants closer to their more southerly African kin are just adpated traits and not traits indicative of any close population relationship between "true Negroes"/sub-Saharan Africans while so-called "non-adaptive" traits are indicative of a close population relationship between Nile Valley inhabitants and northwest Europeans. If effect he wants people to believe that Nile Valley inhabitants are heated adapted Europeans and "West Eurasians," ignoring the fact that such a process would take thousands of years and also ignoring the fact that these so called "NON-Adaptive" traits are *NOT* beleived to be non-adaptive by most anthropologists anyways, which was a major flaw of Brace's "Clines and Clusters" study.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
If Racial Retardology is lurking the forum now the Bass would like a response to this question, why is that you and you cohort Dienekes Pontikos believes that Upper Paleolithic Europeans and modern Europeans constitute an example of "Caucasoid" continuity for 40,000 years supposedly in Europe, while at the same time you both deny the continuity of so called "Negroid" traits found in Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic and modern sub-Saharan and Nile Valley inhabitants as representing any link between each other?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Yes. The "African-like" body proportions of early modern European specimens cannot possibly be indicative of a relationship between those specimens and the cold temperate environment of Europe, i.e. "adaptive trait" in this scenario. It therefore means that these fellows came from hotter environment, such that they would retain body indices similar to populations that remain in tropical Africa. This is a stronger indicator of relationship than say nasal breadth, which is what pseudoscience nuts rely on in their talks of pseudo taxa like "negroid" , "caucasoid" or "mongoloid".
^"Caucasoid", LOL.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Nah, Allen and Gloger's rules doesn't apply in their wacky world. You wouldn't expect tropical traits to arise in such regions, while extreme cold adapted, low UV-specific, traits could defy those rules and just naturally appear.
Saying that, there's plenty of data suggesting that pale pigmentation arose in North Asia due to vitamin D deficiency. That was exasperated due to the shift to farming introduced by Neolithic farmers.
Cold adapted traits, regardless of vitamin D consumption developed as we see earlier with the Neanderthals. That is obeying Allen's role suggesting that limbs would develop to be more compact (or shorter, vs. overall skeletal length) in cold climates.
So unfortunate that EE doesn't (nor wants to) accept that fact.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
News: That was not Racial Reality who posted but an impostor troll from his forum, I got an email from a very good source. Still that was a taste at what we here in Egyptsearch do best, muffle the opposition with facts, not ad-hominems.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: News: That was not Racial Reality who posted but an impostor troll from his forum, I got an email from a very good source. Still that was a taste at what we here in Egyptsearch do best, muffle the opposition with facts, not ad-hominems.
Let's see how long the troll stays here now that he's been found out.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Yes. The "African-like" body proportions of early modern European specimens cannot possibly be indicative of a relationship between those specimens and the cold temperate environment of Europe, i.e. "adaptive trait" in this scenario. It therefore means that these fellows came from hotter environment, such that they would retain body indices similar to populations that remain in tropical Africa. This is a stronger indicator of relationship than say nasal breadth, which is what pseudoscience nuts rely on in their talks of pseudo taxa like "negroid" , "caucasoid" or "mongoloid".
^"Caucasoid", LOL.
^^ Perchance he is a "black-skinned white?"
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Figures; that racial reality character is unlikely to bare setting foot here again, after the traumatizing defeat after defeat experienced here.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ Then again, if he as every bit as stubborn and masochistic, he could come back as many times as it so pleases him (and us). Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Still, some hold out for a "great white hope".
Madilda prepares her latest "white Egypt" video... "Pineapples Mein Frau?... so you are saying the pineapples represent zee Aryan hordes?"
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: YAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!! Try another bait tactic. This is not interesrting anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Reality, these people do not know squat about the Natufians. The make a series of claims with no context, based on nothing more than supposition. None of their ideas on this subject is promoted by anyone else.
Exactly, Does this boy ever produce any facts? Any substance?
I think "hammer" was created by one of the moderators to "lively up" the place a bit. I mean you have to admit "hammer" does provide good comic relief.
Comic relief? That's an understatement. understatement.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
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