posted
I have heard many, many lectures from anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, art historians, geneticists and others who have as their job to conduct research about precolumbian American cultures. I also read a lot of academic articles, dissertations and books about precolumbian cultures and peoples. On top of that I use to watch TV programms like "Native America" and similar.
Nearly ever have any of these lecturers (people like for example Ann Cyphers who´s latest lecture I listened on the other day), articles, dissertations, books by professionals in the fields, mentioned anything about any black or Africans in precolumbian Americas.
Most TV programs with experts in the field of precolumbian cultures do not mention any blacks either.
Why? Is it because there never where such presence, or because there is some big conspiracy from established scientists to hide "the truth" as I sometimes hear claims of?
What is your take on this subject?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Really?
Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What nickname did that person call it?
'negroid' features are not limited to Africans. Neither are each and every Olmec head African.
What's your real beef? That African blacks are incapable of high culture and civilization or just that African blacks never left Africa except as slaves ala 1950s Arnold Toynbee?
Would be on cue for a Swedish professional archaeologist I mean if a pro would post these as authentic ancient Aegean works.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A couple of examples of Mycaenean art
Charioteers from Pylos c 1350 BC.
Female charioteers from Tiryns about 1200 Bc. As common women are depicted a bit lighter in skin tone
.
I mean what have we here than 'modern' cartoon art on top and a bottom painting showing no people at all. Perhaps why no provenance is given for either.
posted
Well, as I said I have read a lot about precolumbian cultures and I also know several archaeologists and anthropologists that do research about these cultures. One I know has actually worked for nearly 30 years as an archaeologist in Mesoamerica. So far he and his colleagues have not found anything that suggests any "negroid" or African presence in ancient Mesoamerica or other parts of America.
No one says Africans were unable to create higher cultures. Africa is full of culture. But why should they have gone to the Americas? Most other non-American peoples did not go to the Americas either, before the vikings, and later Columbus.
How come the professionals, the ones that actually work with these issues do not mention or talk much about any "negroid" presence? How come it is mostly African American amateurs and dilletants that make such claims?
Either there where no negroid presence in precolumbian Americas, or most professional archaeologists, anthropologists, art historians and others just lie.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But why should they have gone to the Americas? Most other non-American peoples did not go to the Americas either, before the vikings, and later Columbus.
The suggestion is, because of the natural currents that go from West Africa to America. One can literally do nothing end up in America, from West Africa.
And you yet have to answer Tukuler's questions:
Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What nickname did that person call it?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I have heard many, many lectures from anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, art historians, geneticists and others who have as their job to conduct research about precolumbian American cultures. I also read a lot of academic articles, dissertations and books about precolumbian cultures and peoples. On top of that I use to watch TV programms like "Native America" and similar.
Nearly ever have any of these lecturers (people like for example Ann Cyphers who´s latest lecture I listened on the other day), articles, dissertations, books by professionals in the fields, mentioned anything about any black or Africans in precolumbian Americas.
Most TV programs with experts in the field of precolumbian cultures do not mention any blacks either.
Why? Is it because there never where such presence, or because there is some big conspiracy from established scientists to hide "the truth" as I sometimes hear claims of?
What is your take on this subject?
You seem to have missed articles about Paleoamerican skulls resembling Africans and/or "Australoid" types. I am not going to argue if these theories are true or not because it has been done to death in the forum and I question why you are bringing it up. The heyday of these African voyage theories to the Americas was Ivan Van Sertima's 1976 book "They Came Before Columbus" and some of these ideas resurfaced in the mid 1990s, early 2000s in Afrocentric circles
Anyway some references, some more recent others going back to the 1920s, the non-Afrocentric sources including scientific journal articles: _______________________________
Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Sumidouro Cave, Lagoa Santa, Brazil: History of discoveries, geological and chronological context, and comparative cranial morphology
February 2007Journal of Human Evolution 52(1):16-30 DOI:10.1016/j.jhevol.2006.07.012 SourcePubMed Authors: Walter A Neves
Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Sumidouro Cave, Lagoa Santa, Brazil: History of discoveries, geological and chronolog
craniofacial morphology observed among some of the most ancient remains in the Americas (Paleoamericans) has been described as much closer to African and Australo-Melanesians populations than to the modern series of Native Americans (Neves et al., 2003;Neves et al., 2007a;Hubbe et al., 2010).
Some writers claim that the Olmecs were related to peoples of Africa - based primarily on their interpretation of facial features of Olmec statues. They additionally contend that epigraphical, genetic, and osteological evidence supports their claims. The idea was first suggested by Mexican antiquarian traveler José Melgar , who discovered the first colossal head at Hueyapan (now Tres Zapotes) in 1862 and subsequently published two papers that attributed this head to a "Negro race."The view was espoused in the early 20th century by Leo Wiener and others. Leo Wiener was a Harvard Professor of Linguistics. Dr. Wiener wrote in volume 3 of ‘Africa and the Discovery of America’:
“that the Negro civilization was carried chiefly by the trader is proved not only by Columbus’ specific references but also by the presence of the African merchant, the tangoman, as tiangizman in Mexico, hence Aztec tiangiz “markets”, and by the universality of the blue and white shell money from Canada to La Plata, and the use of shells as a coin in the Peru-Guatemala trade” (p.365)
Africa and the discovery of America 1922 by Leo Wiener(1862-1939)
^^ the whole book can be read here and with illustrations the keyword search is the upper left one not the upper right one
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Really?
Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What nickname did that person call it?
'negroid' features are not limited to Africans. Neither are each and every Olmec head African.
Would be on cue for a Swedish professional archaeologist I mean if a pro would post these as authentic ancient Aegean works.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A couple of examples of Mycaenean art
Charioteers from Pylos c 1350 BC.
Female charioteers from Tiryns about 1200 Bc. As common women are depicted a bit lighter in skin tone
.
I mean what have we here than 'modern' cartoon art on top and a bottom painting showing no people at all. Perhaps why no provenance is given for either.
Answer my questions and keep that Europeans are the only ones to reason to sail racism to yourself.
Nobody here care who you claim to know. What we demand here is good sources for what you present else the materials led to original thought.
You appear to be a fraud not of the field you claim and incapable of research skills to answer to simple questions which you shall not dodge.
Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What did that person call it?
BTW you should enjoy Weiner. Like you he imagines African blacks incapable of seaworthiness. He says Arabs were the shipmasters. Not your splendidly marvelous yte Euro gods but your 21st century Euro proxies.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Another question Do you really imagine in your wildest dreams you can try and hide any African black presence in the Americas here on Egyptsearch where the topic has been beat to death at least since 2006 and I don't mean wild imaginings like the pre-Holocene African peopling of the indigenous Americas or Olmeca as transplanted African civilization which current data cannot support.
Others will take you to school on this. It's time you left daycare for grade school so you can prep for hi school and maybe some college if you can keep up with Es's teachers. Too much available via site search or external search engines for me to get too involved.
You seem to have missed articles about Paleoamerican skulls resembling Africans and/or "Australoid" types.
I am not going to argue if these theories are true or not because it has been done to death in the forum and I question why you are bringing it up.
The heyday of these African voyage theories to the Americas was Ivan Van Sertima's 1976 book "They Came Before Columbus" and some of these ideas resurfaced in the mid 1990s, early 2000s in Afrocentric circles
Anyway some references, some more recent others going back to the 1920s, the non-Afrocentric sources including scientific journal articles: --- [/QB]
I have not missed those articles, books and authors you refer too, but I was actually referring to modern research, ie Melgar, Weiner and van Sertima are not especially relevant anymore for todays researchers.
The same with Wiercinski (who are often referred to in Afrocentric circles) who´s craniometrical theories and methodology were rather outdated already in his own time.
Most of those rather loose theories has been debunked by more recent DNA analyzes and also by more modern osteological analyzis. Most archeaologists and anthropologists today in the field regard the ideas about a "negroid" or African presence in the Americas as fringe theories.
Van Sertima was no expert on precolumbian cultures, Leo Weiner are hopelessly outdated. Regarding Neves, even he has now taken the standpoint that the Lagoa Santa human remains genetically falls into past and present Native American genetic variation.
So especially today, ideas about American "negroids"and African visitors are by most archaeologists and anthropologists regarded as fringe theories. Those ideas are not in the mainstream among scholars specialized in precolumbian studies. If you do not believe me you are free to go to any university where such research are conducted and ask the researchers there.
Still these ideas are repeated again and again, especially on social media, and especially in Afrocentric circles.
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posted
Funny that many speculate about Africans (and also other peoples) going to the Americas in ancient times. Fewer speculate about Native Americans going to Africa, Egypt, Europe, or to Japan and China. Seems that most traffic are regarded as directed TO the Americas, not away from it.
One interesting exception was of course Thor Heyerdahl with his Kon Tiki expedition. At least he was not locked by the idea that everyone discovered the Americas while the indigenous Americans did not leave their continent.
Otherwise both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics seem to be fixated on ideas that Europeans or Africans came to the Americas and created, or at least inspired civilisations, while Native Americans never went to other continents and created anything. It seems Afrocentrists have fully embraced the old European notion that Native Americans could not create civilisations unadied, or that they never left their continent. That kind of Afrocentrism are indeed just Eurocentrism in Blackface.
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posted
There are hundreds of academic articles, books and dissertations published each year about precolumbian cultures. There are both academic journals and more popular magazines that are either fully dedicated to the study of precolumbian cultures or at least publish articles about it.
There are also a lot of conferences, meetings and seminars where researchers meet and discuss precolumbian cultures.
When you attend such meetings or read most of the literature, you will see that ideas about African or Black presence in precolumbian America is not commonly presented there. They are mostly regarded as fringe.
I have sofar not attended a single seminar where such ideas have been seriously discussed. Afrocentric ideas or theories have no big influence among precolumbian scholars.
On a personal note I think that both the Eurocentric and Afrocentric ideas are insulting to Native Americans, implying they are not the original inhabitants of the Americas, or they could not build great civilisations by themselves, or they could not invent things like pyramids by themselves. Such thoughts are deeply colonial, and it is a pity that some Afrocentrics have bought into old colonial thinking and now apply it against native Americans. Rather nasty.
Just some books and magazines about precolumbian cultures
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quote: Did Blacks come before Columbus? Some say yes
Through DNA testing, a Danish scientist has determined that at least two of Christopher Columbus' shipmates were Africans. From these findings, he deduced that they were the first Africans to set foot in the New World.
The findings give us something to ponder on this Columbus Day, which is Monday.
The DNA analysis was done on human bones excavated from a graveyard in La Isabela in the Dominican Republic, considered by some to be the first colonial town in the Americas. The town was founded in 1494 during Columbus' second voyage to the New World.
Since Africa, Asia and Europe were considered part of the Old World, the New World was composed of the Western Hemisphere, including the Americas.
"African Americans have come to believe that their history began when the first slave ships docked in the mid-17th century, but our results suggest that it actually started far earlier, as the Europeans' history on the continent did," Hannes Schroeder of the Centre of GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, Denmark, was quoted as saying in the magazine NewScientist.
Schroeder's DNA analysis was published a little more than a year ago on Sept. 16, 2010, in a NewScientist article titled, "Graveyard DNA rewrites African American history."
According to the article by Shanta Barley, "Seventeen ships deposited 1,700 people--including farmers, builders and priests--on the part of the island of Hispaniola that today is the Dominican Republic. Within two years, all but 300 had died of starvation and diseases, and in 1498 the town was abandoned.”
But Schroeder's view of Black settlement in the New World does not explain the Negroid Olmec peoples in what is now Mexico and comes thousands of years after some contend that the African presence in the New World began.
"Not only do the colossal Olmec stone heads resemble Black Africans from the Ghana area, but the ancient religious practices of the Olmec priests was similar to that of the West Africans, which included shamanism, the study of the Venus complex which was part of the tradition of the Olmecs as well as the Ono and Dogon people of West Africa, according to an article titled, "Black Civilizations of Ancient America (Muu-land), Mexico (Xi)," by Paul Barton on the website raceandhistory.com.
"The language connection is of significant importance since it has been found out through decipherment of the Olmec script that the ancient Olmecs spoke the Mende language and wrote in the Mend script, which is still used in parts of West Africa and the Sahara to this day.”
Barton believes that Africans had reached the so-called New World, or the Americas, "as early as 100,000 years ago" by way of the Bering Strait, and that their influence and settlements had spread to South America and the Caribbean Islands.
"In fact, the region of Colombia and Panama were among the first places that Blacks were spotted by the first Spanish explorers to the Americas," he writes.
Barton also writes that there was ancient trade between the Americas and Africa.
quote: The small number of early American specimens discovered so far have smaller and shorter faces and longer and narrower skulls than later Native Americans, more closely resembling the modern people of Africa, Australia, and the South Pacific.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Funny that many speculate about Africans (and also other peoples) going to the Americas in ancient times. Fewer speculate about Native Americans going to Africa, Egypt, Europe, or to Japan and China. Seems that most traffic are regarded as directed TO the Americas, not away from it.
One interesting exception was of course Thor Heyerdahl with his Kon Tiki expedition. At least he was not locked by the idea that everyone discovered the Americas while the indigenous Americans did not leave their continent.
Otherwise both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics seem to be fixated on ideas that Europeans or Africans came to the Americas and created, or at least inspired civilisations, while Native Americans never went to other continents and created anything. It seems Afrocentrists have fully embraced the old European notion that Native Americans could not create civilisations unadied, or that they never left their continent. That kind of Afrocentrism are indeed just Eurocentrism in Blackface.
What's even funnier is that you can drift from West Africa to America by doing nothing other than drifting.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Some Afrocentrics try to spread the Black Olmec ideas even into modern academic journals, but not everyone buy these ideas
quote: A journal has retracted a paper on the origins of a group of Indigenous Americans after readers said the basis of the paper was long discredited.
The paper, “Early pioneers of the americas: the role of the Olmecs in urban education and social studies curriculum,” was written by scholars at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, including corresponding author Greg Wiggan, and researchers at Towson State University, and published on June 25, 2020, in the Urban Review.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: What's even funnier is that you can drift from West Africa to America by doing nothing other than drifting.
Even in these, now a bit old, YouTube videos the drifting and currents are discussed. That someone maybe can have drifted here or there does not mean they actually did, especially if there are no tangible evidence that they would have done so.
These videos are interesting, even if some new knowledge have been added since they were made.
One thing the film points out is that no one has the right to deprive another culture of it´s achievements, as both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics have tried to do with Native American culture.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some Afrocentrics try to spread the Black Olmec ideas even into modern academic journals, but not everyone buy these ideas
quote: A journal has retracted a paper on the origins of a group of Indigenous Americans after readers said the basis of the paper was long discredited.
The paper, “Early pioneers of the americas: the role of the Olmecs in urban education and social studies curriculum,” was written by scholars at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, including corresponding author Greg Wiggan, and researchers at Towson State University, and published on June 25, 2020, in the Urban Review.
It appears that you are either slow or just mentally deranged. It was WHITE FOLK WHO WROTE THESE THINGS.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: What's even funnier is that you can drift from West Africa to America by doing nothing other than drifting.
Even in these, now a bit old, YouTube videos the drifting and currents are discussed. That someone maybe can have drifted here or there does not mean they actually did, especially if there are no tangible evidence that they would have done so.
These videos are interesting, even if some new knowledge have been added since they were made.
One thing the film points out is that no one has the right to deprive another culture of it´s achievements, as both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics have tried to do with Native American culture.
Whether they are or not at this moment is a baseless argument to me. Fact is it can, that is my argument. And according to the African legend the voyage was done by Mansa Abubakari II.
quote: mtDNA haplotypes of representatives of the cosmopolitan peoples of north-central Mexico were studied. Two hundred twenty-three samples from individuals residing in vicinities of two localities in north-central Mexico were analyzed. A combination of strategies was employed to identify the origin of each haplotype, including length variation analysis of the COII and tRNALYS intergenic region, nucleotide sequence analysis of control region hypervariable segment 1, and RFLP analysis of PCR products spanning diagnostic sites. Analysis of these data revealed that the majority of the mtDNA haplotypes were of Native American origin, belonging to one of four primary Native American haplogroups.
Others were of European or African origin, and the frequency of African haplotypes was equivalent to that of haplotypes of European derivation. These results provide diagnostic, discrete character, molecular genetic evidence that, together with results of previous studies of classical genetic systems, is informative with regard to both the magnitude of African admixture and the relative maternal contribution of African, European, and Native American peoples to the genetic heritage of Mexico. Phylogenetic analysis revealed that African sequences formed a basal, paraphyletic group.
quote: Note that while the degree of this bottleneck was likely exacerbated by the paleoclimatic conditions in Beringia, this founder effect, recognized more than twenty years prior by Wallace and colleagues (1985) represents just one of a series of founder effects that shaped the human gene pool since our species exited Africa (Ramachandran et al. 2005).
The Study of Pre-Columbian Human Remains in the Caribbean Archipelago: From Descriptive Osteology to a Bioarchaeological Approach Edwin F. Crespo-Torres, Hayley L. Mickleburgh, and Roberto Valcárcel Rojas The Oxford Handbook of Caribbean Archaeology
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:Whether they are or not at this moment is a baseless argument to me. Fact is it can, that is my argument.
And according to the African legend the voyage was done by Mansa Abubakari II.
Well it is because you base your arguments on ideology instead of scientific evidence. For you it is obviously an ideological thing, you really WANT Africans to have visited the Americas.
The original treatise about Abubakari II did not mention that he ever came to the Americas, it only mentions that he disappeared at sea with his fleet.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: It appears that you are either slow or just mentally deranged. It was WHITE FOLK WHO WROTE THESE THINGS.
Insults do not further your arguments.
The author Greg Wiggan, one of the authors of the retracted article is not white.
And otherwise it is known that some white folks have jumped on the Afrocentric train, for some reason.
People write all kinds of stuff regardless of their skin color.
Greg Wiggan
I have never heard of Greg Wiggan. Apparently he's just 40 years old.
And, not it's not insults what I said. Posting a "Black" person who isn't at the foundation of this scholarship is not helping you. Long before, it was white scholars setting the tone.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:Whether they are or not at this moment is a baseless argument to me. Fact is it can, that is my argument.
And according to the African legend the voyage was done by Mansa Abubakari II.
Well it is because you base your arguments on ideology instead of scientific evidence. For you it is obviously an ideological thing, you really WANT Africans to have visited the Americas.
The original treatise about Abubakari II did not mention that he ever came to the Americas, it only mentions that he disappeared at sea with his fleet.
As I said, the legend is based on the Mansa Abubakari II voyage, which is not even based on the Olmec heads.
Harpriya Singh, A Short History of the Mali Empire (1235 – 1600 AD)
quote:Physical Conditions. Some modern scholars have pointed out that as early as the year 500 the watercraft of ancient West Africa were suited to transatlantic travel. Because West Africa is only 1,600miles from South America with islands in between, this voyage would not have been as long or arduous as the one Polynesians made around the year 400 across the Pacific Ocean to Easter Island off the coast of Chile. Furthermore, currents running along the west coast of Africa loop westward toward the Americas. Some modern scholars have suggested that a ship could sail from Africa to the Americas almost without any navigation. In 1500, for example, the Portuguese fleet of Alvares Cabral was caught in a storm off the coast of West Africa and ended up in Brazil.
Although anthropologists, archaeologists, and historians have uncovered evidence to suggest an early West African presence in the New World, not all scholars agree, with some arguing that transatlantic voyages by ancient West Africans were not technically possible.
J. F. A. Ajayi and Michael Crowder, eds., The History of West Africa, second edition, 2 volumes (New York: Columbia University Press, 1976, 1987).
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Here is something interesting that Brada posted on my thread on Egyptsearch Reloaded.
ORIGINAL NARRATIVES OF EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY REPRODUCED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION General Editor, J. FRANKLIN JAMESON, Ph.D., LL.D. DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH IN THE CARNEGIE INSTITUTION OF WASHINGTON THE NORTHMEN, COLUMBUS, AND CABOT 985-1503
INTRODUCTION
This letter, the earliest published narrative of Columbus’s first voyage, was issued in Barcelona in April, 1493, not far from the time when the discoverer was received in state by the King and Queen. The Escribano de Racion, to whom it was addressed, was Luis de Santangel, who had deeply interested himself in the project of Columbus and had advanced money to enable Queen Isabella to meet the expenses of the voyage. He, no doubt, placed a copy in the hands of the printer. Only two printed copies of this Spanish letter, as it is called, have come down to us. One is a folio of the first imprint, discovered and reproduced in 1889. Of this the unique copy is in the Lenox Library in New York; its first page is reproduced in facsimile in this volume, by courteous permission of the authorities of the library. The other is a quarto of the second and slightly corrected imprint, first made known in 1852 and first reproduced in 1866. Facsimiles of both are given in Thacher’s Christopher Columbus, II. 17-20 and 33-40. Facsimile of the first page of the folio (first) edition of the Spanish text of Columbus's letter to Santangel, describing his first voyage, dated February 15, 1493.
quote:Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise.
quote:Wednesday, July 4, he ordered sail made from that island in which he says that since he arrived there he never saw the sun or the stars, but that the heavens were covered with such a thick mist that it seemed they could cut it with a knife and the heat was so very intense that they were tormented, and he ordered the course laid to the way of the south-west, which is the route leading from these islands to the south, in the name, he says, of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, because then he would be on a parallel with the land of the sierra of Loa327-1 and cape of Sancta Ana in Guinea, which is below the equinoctial line, where he says that below that line of the world are found more gold and things of value; and that after, he would navigate, the Lord pleasing, to the west, and from there would go to this Española, in which route he would prove the theory of the King John aforesaid; and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.
posted
As long there is no tangible evidence that Abubakari ever reached the Americas it is rather meaningless to speculate about it. Al Umari who wrote down the story does only mention that Abubakari disappeared at sea, and we have not any real evidence that even that is true.
Seems the speculations about this or that people reached the Americas at one or another time in history are legio, but most of them remain speculations out of lack of evidence.
The only ones that actually left such evidence (before Columbus) were the vikings.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: As long there is no tangible evidence that Abubakari ever reached the Americas it is rather meaningless to speculate about it. Al Umari who wrote down the story does only mention that Abubakari disappeared at sea, and we have not any real evidence that even that is true.
Seems the speculations about this or that people reached the Americas at one or another time in history are legio, but most of them remain speculations out of lack of evidence.
The only ones that actually left such evidence (before Columbus) were the vikings.
So, now all you have left is Wikipedia? And how is wikipedia going to refute any of Mansa Abubakari II voyages? I wonder what you actually really know about Mansa Abubakari II? The name is Mansa Abubakari II, not Abubakari. It's like "A Tribe Called Quest".
As I said, "white folks" are saying it.
Black Before Columbus Came: The African Discovery of America | Odd Salon DISCOVERY 5/7
Dan Von Hoyel ~ Black Before Columbus Came: The African Discovery of America
posted
The guanin-tipped spears and the so called black peoples are pure speculations based on probable observations of people with black body paint, a custom that still occurs in South America
And the so called guanin is an alloy that were not unheard of in South America either.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The guanin-tipped spears and the so called black peoples are pure speculations based on probable observations of people with black body paint, a custom that still occurs in South America
And the so called guanin is an alloy that were not unheard of in South America either.
The chemical composition of gold differs from place to place. And I am not talking about body paint. I am speaking of the natural current from West Africa to America.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
The Wiki articles I just posted because it gives an overview of the many speculations about different peoples who allegedly should , or could have visited the Americas in precolumbian times.
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posted
How do know that? Also the Europeans seen African people at the time,so they would've known the difference between painted people and folks whose usage of Black would be synonymous with African or African like.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The Wiki articles I just posted because it gives an overview of the many speculations about different peoples who allegedly should , or could have visited the Americas in precolumbian times.
I posted the original document by Columbus. You don't even know the difference between Mansa Abubakari II and Abubakari.
quote:"Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise."
Facsimile of the first page of the folio (first) edition of the Spanish text of Columbus's letter to Santangel, describing his first voyage, dated February 15, 1493.
There are undoubtedly a lot of traces.
quote:Not of African Descent: Dental Modification among Indigenous Caribbean People from Canímar Abajo, Cuba
Abstract
Dental modifications in the Caribbean are considered to be an African practice introduced to the Caribbean archipelago by the influx of enslaved Africans during colonial times. Skeletal remains which exhibited dental modifications are by default considered to be Africans, African descendants, or post-contact indigenous people influenced by an African practice. Individual E-105 from the site of Canímar Abajo (Cuba), with a direct 14C AMS date of 990–800 cal BC, provides the first unequivocal evidence of dental modifications in the Antilles prior to contact with Europeans in AD 1492. Central incisors showing evidence of significant crown reduction (loss of crown volume regardless of its etiology) were examined macroscopically and with a scanning electron microscope (SEM) to determine if the observed alterations were due to deliberate modification or other (unintentional) factors considered: postmortem breakage, violent accidental breakage, non-dietary use of teeth, and wear caused by habitual or repeated actions. The pattern of crown reduction is consistent with deliberate dental modification of the type commonly encountered among African and African descendent communities in post-contact Caribbean archaeological assemblages. Six additional individuals show similar pattern of crown reduction of maxillary incisors with no analogous wear in corresponding mandibular dentition.
[…]
Introduction
Dental modifications (DMs) in the Caribbean have been associated with individuals of African descent and, consequently, with the post-contact era [1–12]. The only exception is a skeleton recovered from the site of Chorro de Maita (Cuba), identified as a post-contact displaced Mesoamerican individual [13]. The latter shows a definite Mesoamerican type of dental filing, different in both style and technique from the “African-type” which predominantly involves crown reduction by chipping and filing of the upper anterior dentition [11, 14].
African practices of DM were first described in early accounts from European visitors to West Africa and later observed by ethnographers as summarized by Handler [6]. The most common forms of African DMs included chipping and filing of multiple incisors into points or ‘Vs’ and chipping and filing between upper central incisors resulting in an inverted ‘V’ shape [15–17].
To date, no DMs in the Caribbean have been interpreted as evidence of a pre-contact practice, even when skeletal remains were recovered from indigenous cemeteries that predate contact [1]. Here we present the first case of the so-called “African type” DM observed in securely dated pre-contact individuals from Cuba, at the site of Canímar Abajo [18] predating the arrival of individuals from Africa to the Caribbean by almost 2.5 millennia [19]. Individual E-105, with a direct 14C AMS date of 990–800 cal BC [18] and an inverted “V” shaped crown reduction of central maxillary incisors (Fig 1), demonstrated that this type of DM was present in the Antilles prior to the arrival of enslaved African populations into the region.
[…]
Archaeological Context
Individual E-105 was recovered in 2010 from the site of Canímar Abajo located near Matanzas city (23° 2' 15.5" N; 81° 29' 49.1" E) in the Matanzas province of Cuba (Fig 2a). Canímar Abajo is a complex shell-matrix site with two superimposed burial episodes separated by a midden layer [18]. The site is located on an ancient beach on the western bank of the Canímar River, near to where the river flows into the Bay of Matanzas, forming a resource-rich estuary [18]. Systematic excavations over 36 m2 (Fig 2b) yielded a minimum number of 213 individuals in 50 burials of the older cemetery (OC) and 92 burials of the younger cemetery (YC), as well as some isolated bones recovered from the midden layer (Fig 2c). The older of the two cemetery components was dated by six AMS 14C dates to between 1380–800 cal BC (2 sigma), while the younger was dated to cal AD 360–950 (2 sigma) by five AMS 14C dates obtained directly from human skeletal remains [18], all clearly predating the contact with European colonizers and the arrival of enslaved Africans into the Caribbean.
[…]
DMs at Canímar Abajo span both cemetery components, which lasted between approximately 1400 BC and AD 950 with an apparent burial hiatus from 800 BC to AD 360 [18]. Long persistence of this type of modification could indicate that the same population used both cemetery components. This notion is further supported by the consistency of subsistence strategies employed in both the OC and YC at Canímar Abajo, as well the marked differences in subsistence strategies observed between Canímar Abajo and other contemporaneous Cuban sites [37]. Further research into the cultural meaning of body modifications in the region—for both past and present populations—is needed before we can discuss the motivation behind the DM practice at the site of Canímar Abajo. Analysis of dental morphology and the aDNA, which are currently underway, will provide more definite answers to the questions of continuity between the two components and their biological identity. While the ancestry of Canímar Abajo individuals cannot be ascertained, it is clear from associated 14C dates that they are indigenous Caribbean people and not enslaved Africans.
(Mirjana Roksandic , Kaitlynn Alarie, Roberto Rodríguez Suárez, Erwin Huebner, Ivan Roksandic, Not of African Descent: Dental Modification among Indigenous Caribbean People from Canímar Abajo, Cuba)
Published: April 12, 2016https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0153536
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The chemical composition of gold differs from place to place. And I am not talking about body paint. I am speaking of the natural current from West Africa to America.
So you mean that Columbus had the possibility to make chemical nalyzis that proved that the tips of the spears had a non-American origin or were made by a non-Amererican technology?
Observations of so called Black peoples can probably be explained by the use of body paint. Even today many Afrocentrics fail to recognize body paint in for examlpe Aztec codices, they think some pictures there depict black peoples.
More about guanin, the subject have been discussed before in different publications, from the time of Ivan Van Sertima and onwards. None of the things you posted are new, they have been debated before.
quote: The description that Columbus gives certainly is not a description of black people in the Caribbean. In fact, Columbus writes that they were not black.
Wednesday, July 4, he ordered sail made from that island in which he says that since he arrived there he never saw the sun or the stars, but that the heavens were covered with such a thick mist that it seemed they could cut it with a knife and the heat was so very intense that they were tormented, and he ordered the course laid to the way of the south-west, which is the route leading from these islands to the south, in the name, he says, of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, because then he would be on a parallel with the land of the sierra of Loa and cape of Sancta Ana in Guinea, which is below the equinoctial line, where he says that below that line of the world are found more gold and things of value; and that after, he would navigate, the Lord pleasing, to the west, and from there would go to this Española, in which route he would prove the theory of the King John aforesaid; and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.
Neither Columbus nor de Las Casas wrote anything about African spears. This is an inference that Van Sertima makes, but he presents his inference as a fact. Nowhere does de Las Casas suggest that spears he was referring to were identical or even similar to spears in West Africa. Moreover, how would he have known? Did the Spanish also assay the spears of West Africa to know what ratio of gold, silver and copper alloys were found in the African spears?
Van Sertima does not say, but he jumps the conclusion that the spears that were sent to Spain were African spears without providing a basis for why he believes so.
quote: The NASG waters come from the central North Atlantic (North Atlantic Central Waters, NACW) and enter the CCLME region following a relatively direct south‐eastward path. The NATG waters, on the other hand, have their origin in the central South Atlantic (South Atlantic Central Waters, SACW) and take a much more intricate route to reach the CCLME: they cross the equatorial region mostly in the western Atlantic, off South America, and arrive to the eastern NATG through a system of zonal jets and recirculations north of the Equator (Rosell‐Fieschi et al., 2015; Peña‐Izquierdo et al., 2015).
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The chemical composition of gold differs from place to place. And I am not talking about body paint. I am speaking of the natural current from West Africa to America.
So you mean that Columbus had the possibility to make chemical nalyzis that proved that the tips of the spears had a non-American origin or were made by a non-Amererican technology?
Observations of so called Black peoples can probably be explained by the use of body paint. Even today many Afrocentrics fail to recognize body paint in for examlpe Aztec codices, they think some pictures there depict black peoples.
More about guanin, the subject have been discussed before in different publications, from the time of Ivan Van Sertima and onwards. None of the things you posted are new, they have been debated before.
quote: The description that Columbus gives certainly is not a description of black people in the Caribbean. In fact, Columbus writes that they were not black. Van Sertima claims to be referencing Columbus, but he is actually referencing Bartolomé de Las Casas’ writings.
De Las Casas gave this description in his account of Columbus’ voyage:
Wednesday, July 4, he ordered sail made from that island in which he says that since he arrived there he never saw the sun or the stars, but that the heavens were covered with such a thick mist that it seemed they could cut it with a knife and the heat was so very intense that they were tormented, and he ordered the course laid to the way of the south-west, which is the route leading from these islands to the south, in the name, he says, of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, because then he would be on a parallel with the land of the sierra of Loa and cape of Sancta Ana in Guinea, which is below the equinoctial line, where he says that below that line of the world are found more gold and things of value; and that after, he would navigate, the Lord pleasing, to the west, and from there would go to this Española, in which route he would prove the theory of the King John aforesaid; and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.
Neither Columbus nor de Las Casas wrote anything about African spears. This is an inference that Van Sertima makes, but he presents his inference as a fact. Nowhere does de Las Casas suggest that spears he was referring to were identical or even similar to spears in West Africa. Moreover, how would he have known? Did the Spanish also assay the spears of West Africa to know what ratio of gold, silver and copper alloys were found in the African spears?
Van Sertima does not say, but he jumps the conclusion that the spears that were sent to Spain were African spears without providing a basis for why he believes so.
You are delusional, I am not talking about Black Indians. And your medium source by Dwayne Wong (Omowale) is a Guyanese born Pan-Africanist, author, and law student. is a bit of a contradiction.
The article is about "African Presence in Early America to “948 or circa 1000 B.C". I am not speaking of that. You have a chronological disorder. However, what is mentioned is "Abu Bakr II, went on an expedition to sail the Atlantic Ocean." And this is the Africans legend.
You are now all over the place with your argument. As I said you have a chronological disorder.
quote: "Africans Came with Columbus to New World"
Teeth from exhumed skeletons of crew members Christopher Columbus left on the island of Hispaniola more than 500 years ago reveal the presence of at least one African in the New World as a contemporary of the explorer, it was announced.
It was known that Columbus had a personal African slave on his voyages of discovery. It is unknown whether the individual studied by Price and his colleagues was a slave or a crew member. The new analysis could mean that Africans played a much larger role in the first documented explorations of America.
If confirmed, that would put Africans in the New World as contemporaries of Columbus and decades before they were thought to have first arrived as slaves.
quote: Two of Christopher Columbus‘s shipmates were the first Africans to set foot in the New World, a study has found.
Using DNA analysis of human bones excavated from a graveyard in La Isabela, Dominican Republic – the first colonial town in the Americas – the new study adds weight to the theory that Africans crossed the Atlantic at least 150 years earlier than previously thought.
And the story goes deeper. It's said that Africans navigated to the Americas.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Whatever currents there are there still have to be tangible evidence that African peoples came to the Americas. There must be things like settlements (as you find regarding the vikings), or human remains, preferably with DNA, there must be unmistakenly African artefacts, as for example artifacts made of iron, African pottery or similar. There must be maybe African narratives, preferably written ones, who actually describe voyages to the Americas and also what they saw there and so on. If there were any real tangible evidence of African presence in the Americas, would not the scientific community acknowledge all these evidence. Still the ideas of Africans in the Americas are considered fringe theories by most scientists who do research about different aspects of precolumbian cultures.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Whatever currents there are there still have to be tangible evidence that African peoples came to the Americas. There must be things like settlements (as you find regarding the vikings), or human remains, preferably with DNA, there must be unmistakenly African artefacts, as for example artifacts made of iron, African pottery or similar. There must be maybe African narratives, preferably written ones, who actually describe voyages to the Americas and also what they saw there and so on. If there were any real tangible evidence of African presence in the Americas, would not the scientific community acknowledge all these evidence. Still the ideas of Africans in the Americas are considered fringe theories by most scientists who do research about different aspects of precolumbian cultures.
Logic is not your friend. And you my friend, chronologically have destroyed here.
A navigator and explorer of African ancestry, Pedro Alonso Nino traveled with Christopher Columbus' first expedition to the New World in 1492. He was also known as “El Negro” (The Black). Pedro Nino was the pilot of Columbus' ship the “Santa Maria.”
Who, in 1492, piloted the flagship Santa Maria in Christopher Columbus’s first voyage across the Atlantic.
posted
I can also recommend this book where many Afrocentric myths are debunked. It will soon be available again to a lower price than the sums Amazon takes for a copy:
It is well worth a read since it debunks a lot of Afrocentric mythology and pseudo science.
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Dibble dabble also known as Archeopteryx, is still taking about the Olmecs?
It's pseudo science, when you don't understand that you've systematically have been deconstructed.
Now:
Polish professor Andrzej Wiercinski revealed the discovery of African skulls at Olmec sites in Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban. Even more ancient African skeletons that would clearly predate Columbus’ arrival in the Americas were discovered throughout Central America and South America with some even being unearthed in what is now California.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Logic is not your friend. And you my friend, chronologically have destroyed here.
Stil no tangible evidence of Africans in the Americas before Columbus. As I said, give me DNA, iron, African pottery, settlements with African artefacts and other things that archaeologists and other researchers can accept, not lofty fairytales about medieval sunken fleets or references on who eventually travelled with Columbus.
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Polish professor Andrzej Wiercinski revealed the discovery of African skulls at Olmec sites in Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban. Even more ancient African skeletons that would clearly predate Columbus’ arrival in the Americas were discovered throughout Central America and South America with some even being unearthed in what is now California. [/QB]
Andrzej Wiercinski was outdated already in his own time. His methodology has been heavily criticized and modern DNA studies have debunked his claims. He is old news.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Logic is not your friend. And you my friend, chronologically have destroyed here.
Stil no tangible evidence of Africans in the Americas before Columbus. As I said, give me DNA, iron, African pottery, settlements with African artefacts and other things that archaeologists and other researchers can accept, not lofty fairytales about medieval sunken fleets or references on who eventually travelled with Columbus.
If there is no research being done into it you will not find it, that is simple as 1 2 3.
And my purpose was not that, since I am not even interested in that topic and the Americas.
My purpose was to show that the natural current takes one to the Americas from Africa. And this is why Mansa Abubakari II voyages are very likely. This is why African navigators were on Columns his voyages. That is also why Columns states in his own writing that there as large canoes etc. in West Africa.
And as a matter of fact I did post sources you are questioning, but you were too busy looking at wikipedia. What you need to do is scroll back up, and read everything, instead of acting emotional.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: University archaeologists discard the theory that the oldest civilization in Mesoamerica has its roots in Africa • They conducted studies of mitochondrial DNA in human remains found in archaeological sites in Veracruz • They confirm that the Olmecs belong to one of the most abundant groups among the populations founders and indigenous of America
The origin of the Olmec colossal heads is not African, as rumored for 150 years, but Mesoamerican, said Ann Cyphers, an academic at the Institute of Anthropological Research (IIA) of UNAM, who together with her collaborators have conducted mitochondrial DNA studies that prove the identity of the Olmecs, the oldest civilization in these lands.
The expert recalled that theories of African origin and transoceanic migrations are deeply rooted in the collective imagination, so "it has been very difficult to shake off these ideas."
Ann Cyphers, discoverer in 1994 of the most recent of the 17 Olmec heads known so far, found at the archaeological site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan, in Veracruz, explained that this thesis dates from 1869 and was proposed by José María Melgar y Serrano, who reported the first colossal head (called Hueyapan), in what is now Tres Zapotes, Veracruz.
“At the time, the existence of the Olmec culture was not known, and Melgar proposed that the features of the sculptures corresponded to characters from Ethiopia, people of the black race, mainly due to the features of the face. Hence, that speculation was born and a controversy formed that haunts us in Olmec archeology. ”
For the researcher, the wide and flattened features of the faces of the colossal heads are explained because the rulers' thrones, which were large prisms, were recycled to make the sculptures.
Reusing the thrones was important, because in addition to being a symbol of the ruler, this avoided bringing more rocks from other populations. Since they wanted the head to be as large as possible, they accommodated the image of the ruler in the prism and the face was deformed.
“That greatly clarifies the reason for the compressed features. It is understood, for example, the wide nose and mouth, because no head has protruding elements, everything is compact, glued, it is part of the prism ”.
DNA studies
In excavations carried out for years in the Olmec sites and when scientifically studying various pieces of that civilization, university archaeologists have not found African artifacts; This is a first line of research that rules out the origin in that continent.
The second line contemplates DNA studies, which previously could not be done because there were no Olmec burials, “those that had been found were dusty. But we found some in San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan, and Enrique Villamar Becerril, collaborator of my group, did the mitochondrial DNA study, "he explained.
In this regard, Villamar indicated that two burials were sampled: one in Loma del Zapote (dating from 1,200 BC) and the other in San Lorenzo (1,000 BC). "From these two individuals, a bone sample was taken from the rib and underwent a procedure to obtain their mitochondrial DNA, the lineage that the mother provides to an individual, because it is more feasible to recover it from archaeological remains."
Thus he achieved the classification of that genetic information, called a haplogroup. "The genetic diversity of mitochondrial DNA can be classified according to the similarities that exist in various individuals, and they can share some mutations that make them different from other individuals in different geographic regions of the world."
These differences allow to define to which group they belong, and thus the mitochondrial DNA is classified into haplogroups. “We obtained the haplogroup of these two subjects and learned that they belong to A, one of the most abundant among the founding and indigenous populations of America. If they had been African, the haplogroup would be L, which is characteristic of these populations, "he stressed.
In addition, Cyphers remarked, if there were African genetic material in the Olmecs, it would not only be seen in burials, but in later populations, since the haplogroup L (which was not found here) would have been preserved. "In 300 Mesoamerican burials from different times it is not present."
On the discovery of the colossal head 17, he commented: “we were looking for homes and suddenly it appeared, it was like a dream. Each new thing contributes to changing the perception that one has of what that culture was like ”.
Describing the Olmecs, Cyphers said: they were “the first civilization in Mesoamerica, powerful rulers; in a word, a civilization ”.
Polish professor Andrzej Wiercinski revealed the discovery of African skulls at Olmec sites in Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban. Even more ancient African skeletons that would clearly predate Columbus’ arrival in the Americas were discovered throughout Central America and South America with some even being unearthed in what is now California.
Andrzej Wiercinski was outdated already in his own time. His methodology has been heavily criticized and modern DNA studies have debunked his claims. He is old news.
To my believe Andrzej Wiercinski is not Black, but White. Correct? Did he come before Greg Wiggan or not?
And, no modern DNA studies do not debunk this directly. As I have posted. Nor do these debunk the writings by Columbus himself or the fact that the natural current takes one to the Americas from West Africa. These facts can't be ignored.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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And as a matter of fact I did post sources you are questioning, but you were too busy looking at wikipedia. What you need to do is scroll back up, and read everything, instead of acting emotional.
Accusing me for acting this or that way does not help your cause. You can visit any university you want where serious studies about precolumbian cultures are made and your Afrocentric beliefs will find very litte, if any support.
Still you have not presented any tangible evidence of African visitors in the Americas, neither in Olmec time, or in the medieval age or any other time. It is you who is emotional, you just WANT an African presence in the Americas. But if you want it, you must find hard evidence, and in the end it is not me who you must convince, but the scientific community,
By the way, are you a researcher, connected with any university who conducts studies about precolumbian cultures?
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Back to the Olmecs:
quote: University archaeologists discard the theory that the oldest civilization in Mesoamerica has its roots in Africa • They conducted studies of mitochondrial DNA in human remains found in archaeological sites in Veracruz • They confirm that the Olmecs belong to one of the most abundant groups among the populations founders and indigenous of America
The origin of the Olmec colossal heads is not African, as rumored for 150 years, but Mesoamerican, said Ann Cyphers, an academic at the Institute of Anthropological Research (IIA) of UNAM, who together with her collaborators have conducted mitochondrial DNA studies that prove the identity of the Olmecs, the oldest civilization in these lands.
The expert recalled that theories of African origin and transoceanic migrations are deeply rooted in the collective imagination, so "it has been very difficult to shake off these ideas."
Ann Cyphers, discoverer in 1994 of the most recent of the 17 Olmec heads known so far, found at the archaeological site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan, in Veracruz, explained that this thesis dates from 1869 and was proposed by José María Melgar y Serrano, who reported the first colossal head (called Hueyapan), in what is now Tres Zapotes, Veracruz.
“At the time, the existence of the Olmec culture was not known, and Melgar proposed that the features of the sculptures corresponded to characters from Ethiopia, people of the black race, mainly due to the features of the face. Hence, that speculation was born and a controversy formed that haunts us in Olmec archeology. ”
For the researcher, the wide and flattened features of the faces of the colossal heads are explained because the rulers' thrones, which were large prisms, were recycled to make the sculptures.
Reusing the thrones was important, because in addition to being a symbol of the ruler, this avoided bringing more rocks from other populations. Since they wanted the head to be as large as possible, they accommodated the image of the ruler in the prism and the face was deformed.
“That greatly clarifies the reason for the compressed features. It is understood, for example, the wide nose and mouth, because no head has protruding elements, everything is compact, glued, it is part of the prism ”.
DNA studies
In excavations carried out for years in the Olmec sites and when scientifically studying various pieces of that civilization, university archaeologists have not found African artifacts; This is a first line of research that rules out the origin in that continent.
The second line contemplates DNA studies, which previously could not be done because there were no Olmec burials, “those that had been found were dusty. But we found some in San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan, and Enrique Villamar Becerril, collaborator of my group, did the mitochondrial DNA study, "he explained.
In this regard, Villamar indicated that two burials were sampled: one in Loma del Zapote (dating from 1,200 BC) and the other in San Lorenzo (1,000 BC). "From these two individuals, a bone sample was taken from the rib and underwent a procedure to obtain their mitochondrial DNA, the lineage that the mother provides to an individual, because it is more feasible to recover it from archaeological remains."
Thus he achieved the classification of that genetic information, called a haplogroup. "The genetic diversity of mitochondrial DNA can be classified according to the similarities that exist in various individuals, and they can share some mutations that make them different from other individuals in different geographic regions of the world."
These differences allow to define to which group they belong, and thus the mitochondrial DNA is classified into haplogroups. “We obtained the haplogroup of these two subjects and learned that they belong to A, one of the most abundant among the founding and indigenous populations of America. If they had been African, the haplogroup would be L, which is characteristic of these populations, "he stressed.
In addition, Cyphers remarked, if there were African genetic material in the Olmecs, it would not only be seen in burials, but in later populations, since the haplogroup L (which was not found here) would have been preserved. "In 300 Mesoamerican burials from different times it is not present."
On the discovery of the colossal head 17, he commented: “we were looking for homes and suddenly it appeared, it was like a dream. Each new thing contributes to changing the perception that one has of what that culture was like ”.
Describing the Olmecs, Cyphers said: they were “the first civilization in Mesoamerica, powerful rulers; in a word, a civilization ”.
quote: In 2010, the Mexican government donated a replica of an Olmec colossal head to Ethiopia where it was placed in Mexico Square. In September 2015, the Ethiopian capital inaugurated its Light Rail system and has a "Mexico Station".
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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About Andrzej Wiercinski, I have already noted that many Afrocentrics lean on older Eurocentrics. As I said, some Afrocentrism is only Eurocentrism in blackface.
Also from a pure osteological and methodological perspective Andrzej Wiercinski has been heavily criticised.
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And as a matter of fact I did post sources you are questioning, but you were too busy looking at wikipedia. What you need to do is scroll back up, and read everything, instead of acting emotional.
Accusing me for acting this or that way does not help your cause. You can visit any university you want where serious studies about precolumbian cultures are made and your Afrocentric beliefs will find very litte, if any support.
Still you have not presented any tangible evidence of African visitors in the Americas, neither in Olmec time, or in the medieval age or any other time. It is you who is emotional, you just WANT an African presence in the Americas. But if you want it, you must find hard evidence, and in the end it is not me who you must convince, but the scientific community,
By the way, are you a researcher, connected with any university who conducts studies about precolumbian cultures?
To my believe Andrzej Wiercinski is not Black, but White. Correct? Did he come before Greg Wiggan or not?
And, no modern DNA studies do not debunk this directly. As I have posted. Nor do these debunk the writings by Columbus himself or the fact that the natural current takes one to the Americas from West Africa. Nor can the facts any longer be ignored that Columbus had African navigators on his voyage. These facts can't be ignored.
It's being said that these Africans could speak native Amerindian languages.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And who donates a statue to who is rather irrelevant when it concerns science.
Why would one donate an Olmec head? I don't see the propose, do you?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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About Afrocentrics searching support among outdated white schoolars, I have already noted that many Afrocentrics lean on older Eurocentrics. As I said, some Afrocentrism is only Eurocentrism in blackface.
About Andrzej Wiercinski, also from a pure osteological and methodological perspective he has been heavily criticised.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Why would one donate an Olmec head? I don't see the propose, do you?
I do not see the purpose either, best ask them. Maybe they are flirting with the myth about "negroid" features.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Mr Big Time fraud of a professional Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What nickname did that person call it?
What's an afrocentric circle? Just a racist's excuse to besmirch black scholars.
Your one phrase brush off of Weiner's three vols? Expected you wouldn't bother to follow up any sources given since the 19th century to today because your conclusions are socially biased unattentive to the latest science on Americas peopling genomics and physical anthropology.
Keep going. You're digging yourself a hole in quicksand. ES is riddling you with data all who seek untainted knowledge will appreciate.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About Afrocentrics searching support among outdated white schoolars, I have already noted that many Afrocentrics lean on older Eurocentrics. As I said, some Afrocentrism is only Eurocentrism in blackface.
About Andrzej Wiercinski, also from a pure osteological and methodological perspective he has been heavily criticised.
Is Columbus also outdated?
Is this pseudo?
Is this pseudo?
quote:A navigator and explorer of African ancestry, Pedro Alonso Nino traveled with Christopher Columbus' first expedition to the New World in 1492. He was also known as “El Negro” (The Black). Pedro Nino was the pilot of Columbus' ship the “Santa Maria.”
Who, in 1492, piloted the flagship Santa Maria in Christopher Columbus’s first voyage across the Atlantic.
quote: The small number of early American specimens discovered so far have smaller and shorter faces and longer and narrower skulls than later Native Americans, more closely resembling the modern people of Africa, Australia, and the South Pacific.
quote:"Phylogenetic analysis revealed that African sequences formed a basal, paraphyletic group." (Lance D. Green et al., mtDNA Affinities of the Peoples of North-Central Mexico)
Teeth from exhumed skeletons of crew members Christopher Columbus left on the island of Hispaniola more than 500 years ago reveal the presence of at least one African in the New World as a contemporary of the explorer, it was announced.
It was known that Columbus had a personal African slave on his voyages of discovery. It is unknown whether the individual studied by Price and his colleagues was a slave or a crew member. The new analysis could mean that Africans played a much larger role in the first documented explorations of America.
If confirmed, that would put Africans in the New World as contemporaries of Columbus and decades before they were thought to have first arrived as slaves.
quote: Two of Christopher Columbus‘s shipmates were the first Africans to set foot in the New World, a study has found.
Using DNA analysis of human bones excavated from a graveyard in La Isabela, Dominican Republic – the first colonial town in the Americas – the new study adds weight to the theory that Africans crossed the Atlantic at least 150 years earlier than previously thought.
And the story goes deeper. It's said that Africans navigated to the Americas.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What kind of dunce dismisses the guanin evidence when assay reports of the alloy are on record?
A racist who can only parrot afrocentrism afrocentrism afrocentrism at every piece of data rebuffing their assumptions.
No quotes from any of these imaginary afrocentrics anymore than any citations to his preferred eurocentric sources either for that matter, no, just this picture spam of publication covers?
Your intelligence level is considerably lower than what you regard ES members' to be.
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