Topic: Would anyone try to hide any black presence in precolumbian America?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Here, have another map Ish.
BTW the voyage of Mansa Abu Bakri II is not a legend. Nothing mythical or mystical is in the written document taken down by an Arab author from successor Mansa Gonga Musa's lips. The former, who abandoned Mali and sailed away to the west across the Atlantic, is still derided by Malien historians precisely because he abdicated in search of ... wanderlust ambitions to voyage the high seas 'just because'. While we in retrospect see his greatness he was the epitome of shame to contemporaneous high class Maliens.
From either the Canaries or Cabo Verde the North Equitorial current and the Northeast Tradewind can force anything from Africa caught in or using them them to arrive in the Caribbean whether desired or not. The 'river in the ocean' effect reported by one of Abu Bakri II's first expedition captains.
Eurocentric Swede 'professor', shades of Horemheb/Arrow, denies the current routes for Africans and at the same time flaunts it for fellow yte Scandanavian Heyerdahl whose papyrus disintegrated enroute.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But why should they have gone to the Americas? Most other non-American peoples did not go to the Americas either, before the vikings, and later Columbus.
The suggestion is, because of the natural currents that go from West Africa to America. One can literally do nothing end up in America, from West Africa.
And you yet have to answer Tukuler's questions:
Who uncovered the first Olmec head? What nickname did that person call it?
posted
Just found this source by Dr. Youssef Mroueh, Precolumbian Muslims In The Americas.
quote:Preparatory Commitee for International Festivals to celebrate the millennium of the Muslims arrival to the Americas (996-1996 CE)
INTRODUCTION
Numerous evidence suggests that Muslims from Spain and West Africa arrived to the Americas at least five centuries before Columbus. It is recorded,for example, that in the mid-tenth century, during the rule of the Ummayyed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961 CE), Muslims of African origin sailed westward from the Spanish port of DELBA(Palos) into the "Ocean of darkness and fog". They returned after a long absence with much booty from a "strange and curious land". It is evident that people of Muslim origin are known to have accompanied Columbus and subsequent Spanish explorers to the New World.
The last Muslim stronghold in Spain, Granada, fell to the Christians in 1492 CE, just before the Spanish inquisition was launched. To escape persecution, many non-Christians fled or embraced Catholicism. At least two documents imply the presence of Muslims in Spanish America before 1550 CE. Despite the fact that a decree issued in 1539 CE by Charles V, king of Spain, forbade the grandsons of Muslims who had been burned at the stake to migrate to the West Indies. This decree was ratified in 1543 CE, and an order for the expulsion of all Muslims from overseas Spanish territories was subsequently published. Many references on the Muslim arrival to Americas are available. They are summarized in the following notes:
A: HISTORIC DOCUMENTS:
1. A Muslim historian and geographer ABUL-HASSAN ALI IBN AL-HUSSAIN AL-MASUDI (871-957 CE) wrote in his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa maadin aljawhar (The meadows of gold and quarries of jewells) that during the rule of the Muslim caliph of Spain Abdullah Ibn Mohammad(888-912 CE), a Muslim navigator, Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad, from Cortoba, Spain sailed from Delba (Palos) in 889 CE, crossed the Atlantic, reached an unknown territory(ard majhoola) and returned with fabulous treasures. In Al-Masudi's map of the world there is a large area in the ocean of darkness and fog which he referred to as the unknown territory (Americas).(1)
2. A Muslim historian ABU BAKR IBN UMAR AL-GUTIYYA narrated that during the reign of the Muslim caliph of Spain, Hisham II (976-1009CE), another Muslim navigator, Ibn Farrukh, from Granada, sailed from Kadesh (February 999CE) into the Atlantic, landed in Gando (Great Canary islands) visiting King Guanariga, and continued westward where he saw and named two islands, Capraria and Pluitana. He arrived back in Spain in May 999 CE.(2)
3. Columbus sailed from Palos (Delba), Spain. He was bound for GOMERA (Canary Islands)-Gomera is an Arabic word meaning 'small firebrand' - there he fell in love with Beatriz BOBADILLA, daughter of the first captain general of the island (the family name BOBADILLA is derived from the Arab Islamic name ABOU ABDILLA.).Nevertheless, the BOBADILLA clan was not easy to ignore. Another Bobadilla (Francisco) later, as the royal commissioner, put Columbus in chains and transferred him from Santo Dominigo back to Spain (November 1500 CE). The BOBADILLA family was related to the ABBADID dynasty of Seville (1031-1091 CE). On October 12, 1492 CE, Columbus landed on a little island in the Bahamas that was called GUANAHANI by the natives. Renamed SAN SALVADOR by Columbus. GUANAHANI is derived from Mandinka and modified Arabic words. GUANA (IKHWANA) means 'brothers' and HANI is an Arabic name.Therefore the original name of the island was 'HANI BROTHERS'. (11) Ferdinand Columbus, the son of Christopher, wrote about the blacks seen by his father in Handuras: "The people who live farther east of Pointe Cavinas, as far as Cape Gracios a Dios, are almost black in color." At the same time, in this very same region, lived a tribe of Muslim natives known as ALMAMY. In Mandinka and Arabic languages, ALMAMY was the designation of "AL-IMAM"or "AL-IMAMU", the leader of the prayer,or in some cases, the chief of the community,and/or a member of the Imami Muslim community. (12)
4. A renowned American historian and linguist, LEO WEINER of Harvard University, in his book, AFRICA AND THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA (1920) wrote that Columbus was well aware of the Mandinka presence in the New World and that the West African Muslims had spread throughout the Caribbean, Central, South and North American territories, including Canada,where they were trading and intermarrying with the Iroquois and Algonquin Indians. (13)
B: GEOGRAPHIC EXPLORATIONS:
1. The famous Muslim geographer and cartographer AL-SHARIF AL-IDRISI (1099- 1166CE) wrote in his famous book Nuzhat al-mushtaq fi ikhtiraq al-afaq (Excursion of the longing one in crossing horizons) that a group of seafarers (from North Africa) sailed into the sea of darkness and fog (The Atlantic ocean) from Lisbon (Portugal), in order to discover what was in it and what extent were its limits. They finally reached an island that had people and cultivation...on the fourth day, a translator spoke to them in the Arabic language. (3)
2. The Muslim reference books mentioned a well-documented description of a journey across the sea of fog and darkness by Shaikh ZAYN EDDINE ALI BEN FADHEL AL-MAZANDARANI. His journey started from Tarfaya (South Morocco) during the reign of the King Abu-Yacoub Sidi Youssef (1286-1307CE) 6th of the Marinid dynasty, to Green Island in the Caribbean sea in 1291 CE (690 HE). The details of his ocean journey are mentioned in Islamic references, and many Muslim scholars are aware of this recorded historical event..(4)
3. The Muslim historian CHIHAB AD-DINE ABU-L-ABBAS AHMAD BEN FADHL AL-UMARI (1300-1384CE/700-786HE) described in detail the geographical explorations beyond the sea of fog and darkness of Mali's sultans in his famous book Massaalik al-absaar fi mamaalik al-amsaar (The pathways of sights in the provinces of kingdoms).(5)
4. Sultan MANSU KANKAN MUSA (1312-1337 CE) was the world renowned Mandinka monarch of the West African Islamic empire of Mali. While travelling to Makkah on his famous Hajj in 1324 CE, he informed the scholars of the Mamluk Bahri sultan court (An-Nasir Nasir Edin Muhammad III-1309-1340 CE) in Cairo, that his brother, sultan Abu Bakari I (1285-1312CE) had undertaken two expeditions into the Atlantic ocean. When the sultan did not return to Timbuktu from the second voyage of 1311 CE, Mansa Musa became sultan of the empire. (6)
5. Columbus and early Spanish and portuguese explorers were able to voyage across the Atlantic (a distance of 2400 Km's) thanks to Muslim geographical and navigational information. In particular maps made by Muslim traders, including AL-MASUDI (871-957CE) in his book Akhbar az-zaman (History of the world) which is based on material gathered in Africa and Asia (9). As a matter of fact, Columbus had two captain of muslim origin during his first transatlantic voyage: Martin Alonso Pinzon was the captain of the PINTA,and his brother Vicente Yanez Pinzon was the captain of the NINA. They were wealthy, expert ship outfitters who helped organize the Columbus expedition and prepared the flagship, SANTA MARIA. They did this at their own expense for both commercial and political reasons. The PINZON family was related to ABUZAYAN MUHAMMAD III (1362-66 CE), the Moroccan sultan of the Marinid dynasty (1196-1465CE). (10)
C: ARABIC( ISLAMIC )INSCRIPTIONS:
1. Anthropologists have proven that the Mandinkos under Mansa Musa's instructions explored many parts of North America via the Mississippi and other rivers systems. At Four Corners, Arizona, writings show that they even brought elephants from Africa to the area.(7)
2. Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21,1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. The ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Quranic verses have been discovered in Cuba,Mexico,Texas and Nevada. (8)
3. During his second voyage, Columbus was told by the indians of ESPANOLA (Haiti), that black people had been to the island before his arrival. For proof, they presented Columbus with the spears of these African muslims. These weapons were tipped with a yellow metal that the indians called GUANIN, a word of West African derivation meaning 'gold alloy'. Oddly enough, it is related to the Arabic word 'GHINAA' which means 'WEALTH'. Columbus brought some GUANINES back to Spain and had them tested. He learned that the metal was 18 parts gold (56.25%), 6 parts silver (18.75%) and 8 parts copper (25%), the same ratio as the metal produced in African metalshops of Guinea. (14)
4. In 1498 CE, on his third voyage to the new world, Columbus landed in Trinidad. Later, he sighted the South American continent, where some of his crew went ashore and found natives using colorful handkerchiefs of symmetrically woven cotton. Columbus noticed that these handkerchiefs resembled the headdresses and loinclothes of Guinea in their colors, style and function. He refered to them as ALMAYZARS. ALMAYZAR is an Arabic word for 'wrapper','cover','apron' and/or 'skirting' which was the cloth the Moors (Spanish or North African Muslims) imported from west Africa (Guinea) into Morocco, Spain and Portugal. During this voyage, Columbus was surprised that the married women wore cotton panties (bragas) and he wondered where these natives learned their modesty. Hernan Cortes, Spanish conqueror, described the dress of the Indian women as 'long veils' and the dress of Indian men as 'breechcloth painted in the style of Moorish draperies'. Ferdinand Columbus called the native cotton garments 'breechclothes of the same design and cloth as the shawls worn by the Moorish women of Granada'. Even the similarity of the children's hammocks to those found in North Africa was uncanny.(15)
5. Dr. Barry Fell (Harvard University) introduced in his book 'Saga America-1980' solid scientific evidence supporting the arrival, centuries before Columbus, of Muslims from North and West Africa. Dr. Fell discovered the existence of the Muslim schools at Valley of Fire, Allan Springs, Logomarsino, Keyhole, Canyon, Washoe and Hickison Summit Pass (Nevada), Mesa Verde (Colorado), Mimbres Valley (New Mexico) and Tipper Canoe(Indiana) dating back to 700-800 CE. Engraved on rocks in the arid western U.S, he found texts, diagrams and charts representing the last surviving fragments of what was once a system of schools - at both an elementary and higher level. The language of instruction was North African Arabic written with old Kufic Arabic scripts. The subjects of instruction included writing, reading, arithmetic, religion, history, geography, mathematics, astronomy and sea navigation. The descendants of the Muslim visitors of North America are members of the present Iroquois, Algonquin, Anasazi, Hohokam and Olmec native people..(16)
6. There are 565 names of places (villages, towns, cities, mountains, lakes, rivers,.. etc. ) in U.S.A. (484) and Canada (81) which derived from Islamic and Arabic roots. These places were originally named by the natives in precolumbian periods. Some of these names carried holy meanings such as: Mecca-720 inhabitants (Indiana), Makkah Indian tribe (Washington), Medina-2100 (Idaho), Medina-8500 (N.Y.), Medina-1100, Hazen-5000 (North Dakota), Medina-17000/Medina-120000 (Ohio), Medina-1100 (Tennessee), Medina-26000 (Texas), Medina-1200 (Ontario), Mahomet-3200 (Illinois), Mona-1000 (Utah), Arva-700 (Ontario)...etc. A careful study of the names of the native Indian tribes revealed that many names are derived from Arab and Islamic roots and origins, i.e. Anasazi, Apache, Arawak, Arikana, Chavin, Cherokee, Cree, Hohokam, Hupa, Hopi, Makkah, Mahigan, Mohawk, Nazca, Zulu, Zuni...etc..
Based on the above historical, geographical and linguistic notes, a call to celebrate the millennium of the Muslim arrival to the Americas, five centuries before Columbus, has been issued to all Muslim nations and communities around the world. We hope that this call will receive complete understanding and attract enough support.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The account of masjid is why I discounted this article years ago. Along with shipments of elephants, makes for naive acceptance of fantasies in my opinion.
A strong hand beats a bluff.
The gullible mixed in with the valid makes the valid look enthusiast instead of level headed.
Hawkish vetting is recommended for certain presentations in Mroueh's article, critiqueing the elaborate claims and sourcing things like the intro's 10th century voyage from Spain. Still, it beats Barton who's stuff is pure fluff.
A few months after joining ES I began to become hypercritical of everything I previously took for granted. The success of Blacentrism makes me even more so critical as people are co-signing anything that appears pro-black without regard to any standards of validity. Yes, I know all peoples do that but few are transparent enough to outright label what they do as yte European ethnocentrism the way the commonly known label Afrocentrism announces itself as Black ethnocentrism yet has next to nothing to do with African studies.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yup, my researches concur with yours on this
quote:A couple of centuries after Abubakari II the Portuguese made themselves familiar along W Afr's Atlantics and king Dom João II learned merchant mariners were crossing the Atlantic.
J. F. A. Ajayi and Michael Crowder, eds., The History of West Africa, second edition, 2 volumes (New York: Columbia University Press, 1976, 1987).
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Here is something interesting that Brada posted on my thread on Egyptsearch Reloaded.
ORIGINAL NARRATIVES OF EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY REPRODUCED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION General Editor, J. FRANKLIN JAMESON, Ph.D., LL.D. DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH IN THE CARNEGIE INSTITUTION OF WASHINGTON THE NORTHMEN, COLUMBUS, AND CABOT 985-1503
INTRODUCTION
This letter, the earliest published narrative of Columbus’s first voyage, was issued in Barcelona in April, 1493, not far from the time when the discoverer was received in state by the King and Queen. The Escribano de Racion, to whom it was addressed, was Luis de Santangel, who had deeply interested himself in the project of Columbus and had advanced money to enable Queen Isabella to meet the expenses of the voyage. He, no doubt, placed a copy in the hands of the printer. Only two printed copies of this Spanish letter, as it is called, have come down to us. One is a folio of the first imprint, discovered and reproduced in 1889. Of this the unique copy is in the Lenox Library in New York; its first page is reproduced in facsimile in this volume, by courteous permission of the authorities of the library. The other is a quarto of the second and slightly corrected imprint, first made known in 1852 and first reproduced in 1866. Facsimiles of both are given in Thacher’s Christopher Columbus, II. 17-20 and 33-40. Facsimile of the first page of the folio (first) edition of the Spanish text of Columbus's letter to Santangel, describing his first voyage, dated February 15, 1493.
quote:Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise.
quote:Wednesday, July 4, he ordered sail made from that island in which he says that since he arrived there he never saw the sun or the stars, but that the heavens were covered with such a thick mist that it seemed they could cut it with a knife and the heat was so very intense that they were tormented, and he ordered the course laid to the way of the south-west, which is the route leading from these islands to the south, in the name, he says, of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, because then he would be on a parallel with the land of the sierra of Loa327-1 and cape of Sancta Ana in Guinea, which is below the equinoctial line, where he says that below that line of the world are found more gold and things of value; and that after, he would navigate, the Lord pleasing, to the west, and from there would go to this Española, in which route he would prove the theory of the King John aforesaid; and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.
posted
If you like to discuss Columbus and the color of the people he met, here are some quotes. He mostly emphasises that the people he met were not black.
quote: JOURNAL OF THE FIRST VOYAGE OF COLUMBUS This is the first voyage and the routes and direction taken by the Admiral Don Cristóbal Colon when he discovered the Indies, summarized; except the prologue made for the Sovereigns, which is given word for word and commences in this manner "[Friday, 12th of October] They paint themselves black, and they are the color of the Canarians, neither black nor white."
"[Saturday, 13th of October] As soon as dawn broke many of these people came to the beach, all youths, as I have said, and all of good stature, a very handsome people. Their hair is not curly, but loose and coarse, like horse hair. In all the forehead is broad, more so than in any other people I have hitherto seen. Their eyes are very beautiful and not small, and themselves far from black, but the color of the Canarians. Nor should anything else be expected, as this island is in a line east and west from the island of Hierro in the Canaries."
"[Monday, 22nd of October] Many of these people came, like those of the other islands, equally naked, and equally painted, some white, some red, some black, and others in many ways."
"[Monday, 24th of December] All here have a loving manner and gentle speech, unlike the others, who seem to be menacing when they speak. Both men and women are of good stature, and not black. It is true that they all paint, some with black, others with other colors, but most with red. I know that they are tanned by the sun, but this does not affect them much."
LETTER FROM COLUMBUS TO LUIS DE SANTANGEL "Down to the present, I have not found in those islands any monstrous men, as many expected, but on the contrary all the people are very comely; nor are they black like those in Guinea, but have flowing hair; and they are not begotten where there is an excessive violence of the rays of the sun."
LETTER OF DR. CHANCA ON THE SECOND VOYAGE OF COLUMBUS A letter addressed to the Town Council of Seville by Dr. Chanca, a native of that city, and physician to the fleet of Columbus, on his second voyage to the Indies, describing the principal events which occurred during that voyage
"When they wish to adorn themselves, both men and women paint themselves, some black, others white, and various colors, in so many devices that the effect is very laughable"
NARRATIVE OF THE THIRD VOYAGE OF COLUMBUS AS CONTAINED IN LAS CASAS’S HISTORY May 30-August 31, 1498
"They were not as short as others he had seen in the Indies and they were whiter, and of very good movements and handsome bodies, the hair long and smooth and cut in the manner of Castile. They had the head tied with a large handkerchief of cotton, symmetrically woven in colors, which the Admiral believed to be the almaiçar;336-1 he says that others had this cloth around them, and they covered themselves with it in[337] place of trousers. He says that they are not black although they are near the equinoctial but of an Indian color like all the others he has found. "
"....and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper."
Also note that in the paragraph about guanin, he refers to hearsay. Also it does not mention anything about Africa.
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The talk about land westwards and canoes from Guinea is also hearsay. It really does not prove anything. There were actually many rumours in this time about eventual land to the west. Remember that some Europeans actually heard about the stories told in Icelandic sagas.
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Btw, it is just funny that a few vikings left tangible, physical evidence, and also an imprint in written records, while Africans during thousands of years alleged presence (including a whole mystery fleet) in the Americas really did not leave any discernible traces at all.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Colon was the one himself saying he wanted to prove the Guinea merchant route. After all Cristobal spent time in Portuguese Guinea long before he set off to the far west.
Yte Euro Nordic ethnocentrism straight out of Sweden like thumb upping failed Heyerdahl while scoffing the current and wind conveyors when presented in Atlantic West African context.
Ignore brush aside African evidence
Favor any and all Euro evidence
Accept everything in Thatcher except what supports Africa.
Ingenius. NOT!
Not for our resident Nordheimer ethnocentrist who will brush aside evidence unfavorable to his anti- African black bias.
This is reposted for those who 'believe their lying eyes' over easily denuded Nordicentric gaslightings
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Wuthenau (1970) - Pre-Columbian terracottas
Wuthenau (1975) - Unexpected faces in ancient America (1500 B.C.-A.D. 1500): the historical testimony of pre-Columbian artists
Chandler (1992) - African presence in early America [van Sertima, ed.]
PDFs available online.
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A post-Abu Bakri II pre-Triangular Trade example
This evinces cultural contact with mutual respect unlike typical Nordic Euro contempt of Skraelinger.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Btw, it is just funny that a few vikings left tangible, physical evidence, and also an imprint in written records, while Africans during thousands of years alleged presence (including a whole mystery fleet) in the Americas really did not leave any discernible traces at all.
Who allegedly found those and who wrote about those?
Btw, I was once told by a person from Scandinavia that Nordic people didn't have written language. This person explained this to me after I posted out sources of Viking writings. Not that I really care, but that is what he said, it's fake.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The talk about land westwards and canoes from Guinea is also hearsay. It really does not prove anything. There were actually many rumours in this time about eventual land to the west. Remember that some Europeans actually heard about the stories told in Icelandic sagas.
It becomes something else when modern day science confirms oceanic currents going from West Africa to the Americas.
quote:A navigator and explorer of African ancestry, Pedro Alonso Nino traveled with Christopher Columbus' first expedition to the New World in 1492. He was also known as “El Negro” (The Black). Pedro Nino was the pilot of Columbus' ship the “Santa Maria.”
Who, in 1492, piloted the flagship Santa Maria in Christopher Columbus’s first voyage across the Atlantic.
quote: The canoe, carved and usually also burnt-out from a single tree trunk, played a part in the history of the coastal, lagoon and river-side peoples of West Africa similar in importance to that of the horse in the savannah states. It ranged in size from the small fishing canoe to craft over 80 ft. in length and capable of carrying, in calm waters, 100 men or more. Sails were often used, in addition to paddles and punt poles. The builders were specialists, usually living in the forests, where the most suitable trees were found.
posted
I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility that Abu Bakri's fleet reached the Americas, but neither am I aware of hard evidence showing that they did. You'd think a sizable community of West Africans stranded in the Americas before 1492 would leave quite a mark wherever they landed, at least equivalent to what the Vikings left behind in "Vinland". For example, surely at least one population geneticist would have reported pre-Middle Passage West African ancestry in certain Native American groups by now, assuming at least some of these castaways would have interacted with the Native populations.
I know people here have cited hearsay reports and stylized Native American sculptures that look "negroid" to their eyes, but sorry, you'll need harder evidence than that to make a case.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility that Abu Bakri's fleet reached the Americas, but neither am I aware of hard evidence showing that they did. You'd think a sizable community of West Africans stranded in the Americas before 1492 would leave quite a mark wherever they landed, at least equivalent to what the Vikings left behind in "Vinland". For example, surely at least one population geneticist would have reported pre-Middle Passage West African ancestry in certain Native American groups by now, assuming at least some of these castaways would have interacted with the Native populations.
I know people here have cited hearsay reports and stylized Native American sculptures that look "negroid" to their eyes, but sorry, you'll need harder evidence than that to make a case.
I considered that as well. And depending on where they landed and with how many is determined to the impacted they culturally had. The Caribbean and the whole of America covers a large surface. Most if not all of the Carib-Indians are gone. Have the been solved by the existing populations etc? All this has never been studied, as far as I know.
What are they looking for is the question? There are many similarities between African cultures and Amerindian cultures.
Want exactly do you know about Abu Bakr II?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility that Abu Bakri's fleet reached the Americas, but neither am I aware of hard evidence showing that they did. You'd think a sizable community of West Africans stranded in the Americas before 1492 would leave quite a mark wherever they landed, at least equivalent to what the Vikings left behind in "Vinland". For example, surely at least one population geneticist would have reported pre-Middle Passage West African ancestry in certain Native American groups by now, assuming at least some of these castaways would have interacted with the Native populations.
I know people here have cited hearsay reports and stylized Native American sculptures that look "negroid" to their eyes, but sorry, you'll need harder evidence than that to make a case.
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
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. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
A good example of the Malians in the North America are the Nanticokes. The Nanticokes were described by B.S Barton as very dark. This tribe of Black Native Americans formerly lived in the Chesapeake Bay and Delaware. They later settled in Wyoming, Oklahoma and Canada.
During the Revolutionary War, the Nanticoke sided with the British and many Nanticoke migrated to Canada, while others went into hiding or moved out West. By 1867, the Nanticoke moved to Kansas with the Lenape. There chiefdoms were called Monie, Wicomoco and Manokin (,Mandekan ?).
In 1741-51, J.C. Pyrlaeus collected the Numerals of the Nanticoke. This was before the Revolutionary War. Around this time the Conoy people joined their tribe.
The numerals collected by Pyrlaeus when they were compared to other numerals by Murray in 1873, they did not match numerals in any known Indian language. Brinton found that they were identical to Malinke-Bambara numerals.
These numerals make it clear the Nanticoke were descendants of the Malian explorers.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
Read more about this in
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This person looks like a native American as is found in the Amazon.
I have been to these Indian villages.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Eh here we go with Vikings in North America and that their violent segregationist attitude toward those they racistly labelled Skraeling should be the same mentality civilized imperial Maliens must take upon encountering Americans.
No
As seen after purveying Simon Says approved white people documented records that show Africans and Indians melded, with Africans becoming absorbed by the greater surrounding populations.
Any who says there is no hard evidence is too lazy to examine Weiner's 3 Vols. I never got through everything pertinent in v1&3 back before They Came Before Columbus was published. So just shush up with opinion based on Nordic psychology and no background via the still undone intensive investigation of Weiner. This will takes weeks to do on even a halfway serious level. Or one can believe he didn't know what he was talking about.
Unexplained Faces, which took me years to track down decades ago, is free on the internet now. Take a hot damn minute to scroll through it if refusing to take the hours needed to digest it. Everything in it on African presence is dated before 1500. But no, a simple pro-Viking opine trumps all this cultural evidence provided by Weiner and art curated by Wuthenau? Why even try it? Collecting Ls as a hobby?
How come white people never challenge obvious blanc-oid features in monumental art the way they always poo poo on negr-oid phenotye?
Can anybody help me find that report on skulls in the Caribbean with tooth filings or occlusions as in Tropical North Africa? You know, the hush hush 1200s one. Or what about the one the Smithstonian put a gag on, if not one and the same?
Meanwhile imagine this fantasy being a haze of reality
Some artist may want to authenticate this with Tainos and imperial Maliens making contact. By Sweeting & Edmonds in the 60s for Ghana but Plains Indians and Ghanaians ain't cuttin it.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Counter to one attempt in this thread to poison the well.
quote:Originally posted 2013 by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote: THE TRUTH: In the drier centers of the Olmec world - at Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban - the Polish craniologist, Andrez Wiercinski, found indisputable evidence of an African presence. The many traits analyzed in these Olmec sites indicated individuals with Negroid traits predominating but with an admixture of other racial traits. This is what I have said. The work of A. Vargas Guadarrama is an important reinforcement of Wiercinski’s study. He found that the skulls he examined at Tlatilco, which Wiercinski had classified as Negroid, were "radically different" from other skulls on the site, bearing indisputable similarities to skulls in West Africa and Egypt.
Interesting I didn't know African remains were discovered there too.
Wiercinski's Dongolian was not found at Cerro de las Mesas. Afaik, the Dongolian type was only at Tlatilco (at a whopping 19.2%), Monte Alban, and "Maya." A Dongolian type would support the Ivan vanSertima Egypto-Nubian hypothesis seeing that Dongola is in N. Sudan.
Anyway, Wiercinski's data does not support an African only Olmeca phenotype. His list makes for a variety of phenotypes with an African one among the selections with SubPacifics appearing twice as more frequently at Tlatilco and totally overwhelming Dongolians at Monte Alban (10X) and "Maya" (21X). I take it Wiercinski means what we call Australo-Melanesian by SubPacific.
The Wiercinski SubPacifics numerically dominate Dongolians across the board. Both of these type labels are named after black peoples. Dongola are African blacks. SubPacifics are Oceanian and largely black. SubPacific is strongly represented at all six sites while Dongolian only at three.
Wiercinski found that his Tlatilco series differed not at all from a living series taken of Jalapa and Vera Cruz populations, though he takes it that convergent evolution is the cause rather than descent from any ancient Mexicans.
Like yourself ARtU, Ive asked for other and more recent Olmec related anthropological data. Our analyses can't be based solely on one or two examination from over 35 years ago. We have to find something more up to date to go along with it (unless there are no other studies).
posted
This painting made by John White in the 1500s does of course not depict any Malian, but a Native American
It is perhaps easier to see if one sees it in color
John White made a whole series of paintings of the Natives along the North American coast. A valuable and unique document handed to us by an actual eyewitness.
Another one of his exquisite paintings:
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Just found this source by Dr. Youssef Mroueh, Precolumbian Muslims In The Americas.
quote:Preparatory Commitee for International Festivals to celebrate the millennium of the Muslims arrival to the Americas (996-1996 CE)
INTRODUCTION
Numerous evidence suggests that Muslims from Spain and West Africa arrived to the Americas at least five centuries before Columbus. It is recorded,for example, that in the mid-tenth century, during the rule of the Ummayyed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961 CE), Muslims of African origin sailed westward from the Spanish port of DELBA(Palos) into the "Ocean of darkness and fog". They returned after a long absence with much booty from a "strange and curious land". It is evident that people of Muslim origin are known to have accompanied Columbus and subsequent Spanish explorers to the New World.
The last Muslim stronghold in Spain, Granada, fell to the Christians in 1492 CE, just before the Spanish inquisition was launched. To escape persecution, many non-Christians fled or embraced Catholicism. At least two documents imply the presence of Muslims in Spanish America before 1550 CE. Despite the fact that a decree issued in 1539 CE by Charles V, king of Spain, forbade the grandsons of Muslims who had been burned at the stake to migrate to the West Indies. This decree was ratified in 1543 CE, and an order for the expulsion of all Muslims from overseas Spanish territories was subsequently published. Many references on the Muslim arrival to Americas are available. They are summarized in the following notes:
A: HISTORIC DOCUMENTS:
1. A Muslim historian and geographer ABUL-HASSAN ALI IBN AL-HUSSAIN AL-MASUDI (871-957 CE) wrote in his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa maadin aljawhar (The meadows of gold and quarries of jewells) that during the rule of the Muslim caliph of Spain Abdullah Ibn Mohammad(888-912 CE), a Muslim navigator, Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad, from Cortoba, Spain sailed from Delba (Palos) in 889 CE, crossed the Atlantic, reached an unknown territory(ard majhoola) and returned with fabulous treasures. In Al-Masudi's map of the world there is a large area in the ocean of darkness and fog which he referred to as the unknown territory (Americas).(1)
2. A Muslim historian ABU BAKR IBN UMAR AL-GUTIYYA narrated that during the reign of the Muslim caliph of Spain, Hisham II (976-1009CE), another Muslim navigator, Ibn Farrukh, from Granada, sailed from Kadesh (February 999CE) into the Atlantic, landed in Gando (Great Canary islands) visiting King Guanariga, and continued westward where he saw and named two islands, Capraria and Pluitana. He arrived back in Spain in May 999 CE.(2)
3. Columbus sailed from Palos (Delba), Spain. He was bound for GOMERA (Canary Islands)-Gomera is an Arabic word meaning 'small firebrand' - there he fell in love with Beatriz BOBADILLA, daughter of the first captain general of the island (the family name BOBADILLA is derived from the Arab Islamic name ABOU ABDILLA.).Nevertheless, the BOBADILLA clan was not easy to ignore. Another Bobadilla (Francisco) later, as the royal commissioner, put Columbus in chains and transferred him from Santo Dominigo back to Spain (November 1500 CE). The BOBADILLA family was related to the ABBADID dynasty of Seville (1031-1091 CE). On October 12, 1492 CE, Columbus landed on a little island in the Bahamas that was called GUANAHANI by the natives. Renamed SAN SALVADOR by Columbus. GUANAHANI is derived from Mandinka and modified Arabic words. GUANA (IKHWANA) means 'brothers' and HANI is an Arabic name.Therefore the original name of the island was 'HANI BROTHERS'. (11) Ferdinand Columbus, the son of Christopher, wrote about the blacks seen by his father in Handuras: "The people who live farther east of Pointe Cavinas, as far as Cape Gracios a Dios, are almost black in color." At the same time, in this very same region, lived a tribe of Muslim natives known as ALMAMY. In Mandinka and Arabic languages, ALMAMY was the designation of "AL-IMAM"or "AL-IMAMU", the leader of the prayer,or in some cases, the chief of the community,and/or a member of the Imami Muslim community. (12)
4. A renowned American historian and linguist, LEO WEINER of Harvard University, in his book, AFRICA AND THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA (1920) wrote that Columbus was well aware of the Mandinka presence in the New World and that the West African Muslims had spread throughout the Caribbean, Central, South and North American territories, including Canada,where they were trading and intermarrying with the Iroquois and Algonquin Indians. (13)
B: GEOGRAPHIC EXPLORATIONS:
1. The famous Muslim geographer and cartographer AL-SHARIF AL-IDRISI (1099- 1166CE) wrote in his famous book Nuzhat al-mushtaq fi ikhtiraq al-afaq (Excursion of the longing one in crossing horizons) that a group of seafarers (from North Africa) sailed into the sea of darkness and fog (The Atlantic ocean) from Lisbon (Portugal), in order to discover what was in it and what extent were its limits. They finally reached an island that had people and cultivation...on the fourth day, a translator spoke to them in the Arabic language. (3)
2. The Muslim reference books mentioned a well-documented description of a journey across the sea of fog and darkness by Shaikh ZAYN EDDINE ALI BEN FADHEL AL-MAZANDARANI. His journey started from Tarfaya (South Morocco) during the reign of the King Abu-Yacoub Sidi Youssef (1286-1307CE) 6th of the Marinid dynasty, to Green Island in the Caribbean sea in 1291 CE (690 HE). The details of his ocean journey are mentioned in Islamic references, and many Muslim scholars are aware of this recorded historical event..(4)
3. The Muslim historian CHIHAB AD-DINE ABU-L-ABBAS AHMAD BEN FADHL AL-UMARI (1300-1384CE/700-786HE) described in detail the geographical explorations beyond the sea of fog and darkness of Mali's sultans in his famous book Massaalik al-absaar fi mamaalik al-amsaar (The pathways of sights in the provinces of kingdoms).(5)
4. Sultan MANSU KANKAN MUSA (1312-1337 CE) was the world renowned Mandinka monarch of the West African Islamic empire of Mali. While travelling to Makkah on his famous Hajj in 1324 CE, he informed the scholars of the Mamluk Bahri sultan court (An-Nasir Nasir Edin Muhammad III-1309-1340 CE) in Cairo, that his brother, sultan Abu Bakari I (1285-1312CE) had undertaken two expeditions into the Atlantic ocean. When the sultan did not return to Timbuktu from the second voyage of 1311 CE, Mansa Musa became sultan of the empire. (6)
5. Columbus and early Spanish and portuguese explorers were able to voyage across the Atlantic (a distance of 2400 Km's) thanks to Muslim geographical and navigational information. In particular maps made by Muslim traders, including AL-MASUDI (871-957CE) in his book Akhbar az-zaman (History of the world) which is based on material gathered in Africa and Asia (9). As a matter of fact, Columbus had two captain of muslim origin during his first transatlantic voyage: Martin Alonso Pinzon was the captain of the PINTA,and his brother Vicente Yanez Pinzon was the captain of the NINA. They were wealthy, expert ship outfitters who helped organize the Columbus expedition and prepared the flagship, SANTA MARIA. They did this at their own expense for both commercial and political reasons. The PINZON family was related to ABUZAYAN MUHAMMAD III (1362-66 CE), the Moroccan sultan of the Marinid dynasty (1196-1465CE). (10)
C: ARABIC( ISLAMIC )INSCRIPTIONS:
1. Anthropologists have proven that the Mandinkos under Mansa Musa's instructions explored many parts of North America via the Mississippi and other rivers systems. At Four Corners, Arizona, writings show that they even brought elephants from Africa to the area.(7)
2. Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21,1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. The ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Quranic verses have been discovered in Cuba,Mexico,Texas and Nevada. (8)
3. During his second voyage, Columbus was told by the indians of ESPANOLA (Haiti), that black people had been to the island before his arrival. For proof, they presented Columbus with the spears of these African muslims. These weapons were tipped with a yellow metal that the indians called GUANIN, a word of West African derivation meaning 'gold alloy'. Oddly enough, it is related to the Arabic word 'GHINAA' which means 'WEALTH'. Columbus brought some GUANINES back to Spain and had them tested. He learned that the metal was 18 parts gold (56.25%), 6 parts silver (18.75%) and 8 parts copper (25%), the same ratio as the metal produced in African metalshops of Guinea. (14)
4. In 1498 CE, on his third voyage to the new world, Columbus landed in Trinidad. Later, he sighted the South American continent, where some of his crew went ashore and found natives using colorful handkerchiefs of symmetrically woven cotton. Columbus noticed that these handkerchiefs resembled the headdresses and loinclothes of Guinea in their colors, style and function. He refered to them as ALMAYZARS. ALMAYZAR is an Arabic word for 'wrapper','cover','apron' and/or 'skirting' which was the cloth the Moors (Spanish or North African Muslims) imported from west Africa (Guinea) into Morocco, Spain and Portugal. During this voyage, Columbus was surprised that the married women wore cotton panties (bragas) and he wondered where these natives learned their modesty. Hernan Cortes, Spanish conqueror, described the dress of the Indian women as 'long veils' and the dress of Indian men as 'breechcloth painted in the style of Moorish draperies'. Ferdinand Columbus called the native cotton garments 'breechclothes of the same design and cloth as the shawls worn by the Moorish women of Granada'. Even the similarity of the children's hammocks to those found in North Africa was uncanny.(15)
5. Dr. Barry Fell (Harvard University) introduced in his book 'Saga America-1980' solid scientific evidence supporting the arrival, centuries before Columbus, of Muslims from North and West Africa. Dr. Fell discovered the existence of the Muslim schools at Valley of Fire, Allan Springs, Logomarsino, Keyhole, Canyon, Washoe and Hickison Summit Pass (Nevada), Mesa Verde (Colorado), Mimbres Valley (New Mexico) and Tipper Canoe(Indiana) dating back to 700-800 CE. Engraved on rocks in the arid western U.S, he found texts, diagrams and charts representing the last surviving fragments of what was once a system of schools - at both an elementary and higher level. The language of instruction was North African Arabic written with old Kufic Arabic scripts. The subjects of instruction included writing, reading, arithmetic, religion, history, geography, mathematics, astronomy and sea navigation. The descendants of the Muslim visitors of North America are members of the present Iroquois, Algonquin, Anasazi, Hohokam and Olmec native people..(16)
6. There are 565 names of places (villages, towns, cities, mountains, lakes, rivers,.. etc. ) in U.S.A. (484) and Canada (81) which derived from Islamic and Arabic roots. These places were originally named by the natives in precolumbian periods. Some of these names carried holy meanings such as: Mecca-720 inhabitants (Indiana), Makkah Indian tribe (Washington), Medina-2100 (Idaho), Medina-8500 (N.Y.), Medina-1100, Hazen-5000 (North Dakota), Medina-17000/Medina-120000 (Ohio), Medina-1100 (Tennessee), Medina-26000 (Texas), Medina-1200 (Ontario), Mahomet-3200 (Illinois), Mona-1000 (Utah), Arva-700 (Ontario)...etc. A careful study of the names of the native Indian tribes revealed that many names are derived from Arab and Islamic roots and origins, i.e. Anasazi, Apache, Arawak, Arikana, Chavin, Cherokee, Cree, Hohokam, Hupa, Hopi, Makkah, Mahigan, Mohawk, Nazca, Zulu, Zuni...etc..
Based on the above historical, geographical and linguistic notes, a call to celebrate the millennium of the Muslim arrival to the Americas, five centuries before Columbus, has been issued to all Muslim nations and communities around the world. We hope that this call will receive complete understanding and attract enough support.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: There are hundreds of academic articles, books and dissertations published each year about precolumbian cultures. There are both academic journals and more popular magazines that are either fully dedicated to the study of precolumbian cultures or at least publish articles about it.
There are also a lot of conferences, meetings and seminars where researchers meet and discuss precolumbian cultures.
When you attend such meetings or read most of the literature, you will see that ideas about African or Black presence in precolumbian America is not commonly presented there. They are mostly regarded as fringe.
I have sofar not attended a single seminar where such ideas have been seriously discussed. Afrocentric ideas or theories have no big influence among precolumbian scholars.
On a personal note I think that both the Eurocentric and Afrocentric ideas are insulting to Native Americans, implying they are not the original inhabitants of the Americas, or they could not build great civilisations by themselves, or they could not invent things like pyramids by themselves. Such thoughts are deeply colonial, and it is a pity that some Afrocentrics have bought into old colonial thinking and now apply it against native Americans. Rather nasty.
Just some books and magazines about precolumbian cultures
. The fact remains the Olmecs do not appear in Mexico until after 1200BC.
There is no secret about the Olmecs. Eurocentrists know that the Olmec do not appear in Mexico until after 1200BC.
Some researchers claim that I am wrongly ruling out an “indigenous revolution” for the origin of the Olmec civilization. This is their opinion—the archaeological evidence, not I, suggest that the founders of the Olmec civilization were not “indigenous” people.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement”Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”.
M. Coe, writing in Regional Perspective on the Olmecs (1989), (ed.) by Sharer and Grove, observed that “ on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Richard A. Diehl The Olmecs:America’s first civilization (2005), wrote “ The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among the local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Pool (17-18), in Olmec Archaeology and early MesoAmerica (2007), argues that continuity exist between the Olmec and pre-Olmec cultures in Mexico “[even]though Coe now appears to favor an autochthonous origin for Olmec culture (Diehl & Coe 1995:150), he long held that the Olmec traits appeared at San Lorenzo rather suddenly during the Chicharras phase (ca 1450-1408 BC) (Coe 1970a:25,32; Coe and Diehl 1980a:150)”.
Pool admits (p.95), that “this conclusion contrasts markedly with that of the excavators of San Lorenzo, who reported dramatic change in ceramic type and argued on this basis for a foreign incursion of Olmecs into Olman (Coe and Diehl 1980a, p.150).”
The evidence presented by these authors make it clear that the Olmec introduced a unique culture to Mesoamerica that was adopted by the Mesoamericans. As these statements make it clear that was no continuity between pre-Olmec cultures and the Olmec culture.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: This painting made by John White in the 1500s does of course not depict any Malian, but a Native American
It is perhaps easier to see if one sees it in color
John White made a whole series of paintings of the Natives along the North American coast. A valuable and unique document handed to us by an actual eyewitness.
Another one of his exquisite paintings:
This does not dispute any of the evidence I presented of Malians in North America.
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posted
Wiercinski provides pictures in the article of the biological types. Pictures that show the categories were related to the Negro type. Ivan van Sertima told us about the work Dr. Wiercinski who examined many Olmec skeletons. Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind. In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America. Below are the racial types identified by Wiercinski:
Equatorial Type
Dongolan Type
Sub-Pacific and Bushmanoid-Armenoid
Anatolian
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
Secondly, Rossum argues that Wiercinski was wrong about Blacks in ancient America because a comparison of modern native American skeletal material and the ancient Olmec skeletal material indicate no admixture. The study of Vargas and Rossum are flawed. They are flawed because the skeletal reference collection they used in their comparison of Olmec skeletal remains and modern Amerindian propulations because the Mexicans have been mixing with African and European populations since the 1500's. This has left many components of these Old World people within and among Mexican Amerindians.
The iconography of the classic Olmec and Mayan civilization show no correspondence in facial features. But many contemporary Maya and other Amerind groups show African characteristics and DNA. Underhill, et al (1996) found that the Mayan people have an African Y chromosome. This would explain the "puffy" faces of contemporary Amerinds, which are incongruent with the Mayan type associated with classic Mayan sculptures and stelas.
Wiercinski on the otherhand, compared his SRC to an unmixed European and African sample. This comparison avoided the use of skeletal material that is clearly mixed with Africans and Europeans, in much the same way as the Afro-American people he discussed in his essay who have acquired "white" features since mixing with whites due to the slave trade.
A. von Wuthenau (1980), and Wiercinski (1972b) highlight the numerous art pieces depicting the African or Black variety which made up the Olmec people. This re-anlysis of the Olmec skeletal meterial from Tlatilco and Cerro, which correctly identifies Armenoid, Dongolan and Loponoid as euphmisms for "Negro" make it clear that a substantial number of the Olmecs were Blacks support the art evidence and writing which point to an African origin for Olmec civilization.
In conclusion, the Olmec people were called Xi. They did not speak a Mixe-Zoque language they spoke a Mande language, which is the substratum language for many Mexican languages.
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa 3200 years ago.They came in boats which are depicted in the Izapa Stela no.5, in twelve migratory waves. These Proto-Olmecs belonged to seven clans which served as the base for the Olmec people.
Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
The skeletal material from Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas and evidence that the Olmecs used an African writing to inscribe their monuments and artifacts, make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population.
These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Seems some people want to see "negroes" everywhere. But actually science do not find them in precolumbian Americas. Archaeology, anthropology, art history and genetics refute the ideas of a precolumbian African presence in ancient Americas.
Also iconography do actually not support any African presence. Both Olmec art and Mayan art depicts people that are actually fully in line with Native American phenotypic variation.
The Olmec stone heads actually fits well into Native American variation. No need to postulate any foreign (African) influence
Also Mayan art most often show features that still can be seen among modern Maya peoples. No idea to look over the Atlantic. Variations can of course occur due to variations in artistic conventions over time and space, and also due to variation in the appearance of different Maya individuals and groups. Variation which can be seen still today.
Still today one can see faces among the Maya populations that very much resemble pictures from ancient Maya art
Aztecs also depicted themselves in among other artworks in the famous codices. If one studies the codices one get a clear picture of the Aztecs not being African or negroid.
Picture from the Florentine codex, showing rituals and music players
Some figures are black, but they often represent people in body paint, as warriors or priests. Sometimes they can also depict supernatural beings who could sometimes be black (and a lot of other colors too).
Picture from Codex Mendoza depicting four warriors with black body paint
Many times one can also see old European paintings, many times made by artists who never even visited the Americas and never saw any real native Americans, presented as if they actually represented some kind of "black" natives. But if one studies those representations one soon learns to distingusih them from real paintings by artists that actually saw the natives in the Americas (or at least saw natives that visited Europe.
Here is a typical example seen in many Afrocentric sites on internet. I contrast it with a painting depicting a real native:
African inspired picture made by Johann Ihle 1794 of an alleged native from Tierra Del Fuego in South America (Ihle never visited Tierra del Fuego or saw any real Fuegians), compared with a picture of a real Fuegian made by Conrad Martens who travelled with the ship Beagle and actually visited Tierra del Fuego and saw the natives there.
One more example:
The left picture from 1797, representing an African from Natal has sometimes been presented as a picture of a Native American. For contrast one can compare with a painting from 1585, by John White of a real Native American. As I said, one learns to see the difference between pictures of real Native Americans and fake ones, depicting other peoples.
Sometimes one can get a bit tired of all the pseudo scientific speculations which try to insert all kinds of foreign peoples from other continents (like Africans or Europeans) into the history of precolumbian Americas.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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There are supposed African people in Latin America who mixed with Indigenous folks,until they are tested to confirm that history I'm going to remain open to Africans making contact with the region of the world before Columbus.
Radmilla Cody African + Indigenous.
Afro Chilean mixed.
A bit old,but here's is video of the Afro Chileans wanting to be recognize as a group on the census.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: [QB] There are supposed African people in Latin America who mixed with Indigenous folks,until they are tested to confirm that history I'm going to remain open to Africans making contact with the region of the world before Columbus.
they have been tested, just bring up any country
If someone in Latin America has African DNA the DNA does not indicate if the person is a descendant of slaves, immigration or theoretical prior to 1492 contact by Africans
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: [QB] There are supposed African people in Latin America who mixed with Indigenous folks,until they are tested to confirm that history I'm going to remain open to Africans making contact with the region of the world before Columbus.
Radmilla Cody African + Indigenous.
An Unusual Miss Navajo
Cody grew up on these lonesome sage flats. Her Navajo mother, Margaret, took off to Georgia shortly after giving birth to Cody at age 18. Her father, Troy Davis, was a 43-year-old black man who worked as a driver for a Ford dealer in Flagstaff.
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