posted
Lately, I have been doing much searching into the so-called history of "Nubia" and Egypt and I came across a fundamental fact of history that MOST Egyptologists overlook or just OMIT outright.
Often we speak of the prophecy of Neferti and the importance of the South against the Asiatics. We also speak of the fact that the saviour is from Ta Seti, Land of the Bow, OFTEN called Nubia by Egyptologists since it extended PAST the first cataract during much of Egypt's history. And because of the arbitrary nature of the Egyptologists definition of Nubia, these people are called Nubians.
Anyway, looking at the 12th Dynasty, it is started by Amenhemhat I. He is a NON royal person, ie not related to the previous royal line. The prophecies of Neferti were WRITTEN during the period of Amenhemhat's reign and the hero of the story Ameny is supposedly Amenhemhat himself. Amenhemhat was BORN in Elaphantine, the capital of Ta Seti, by some reports. Therefore, that makes him a Nubian, since Ta Seti extended WAY past the first cataract at that time. But that is just ONE clue.
As I said, I believe that what happened after the F.I.P is that there was STILL a bunch of rebellious princes in Lower Egypt, Upper Egypt AND Ta Seti. Ta Seti was given the same official treatment as Upper and Lower Egypt, since at this time it was almost as big as upper or lower Egypt, stretching almost to the 2nd cataract. The 11th dynasty took power and REUNIFIED the country with the help of the "Nubian" bowmen, who were FROM Ta Seti, Land of the Bow, NOT Nubia. Keep this in the back of your mind bow=bowmen=ta seti....
Anyway, even though Montuhotep II reunified the country, there were STILL many princes in Thebes and elsewhere who were contending for power in Egypt. Towards the end of the 11th dynasty, there were various co-regents and kings located in "Ta Seti" (called Nubia), showing that there were many people from Ta Seti who were NOT happy with the situation in the Kingdom THEY SAVED!! I think that Montuhotep II tried to placate the bowmen (the same "Nubian" Archers seen all over), by marrying a woman from Ta Seti as some sort of sign of "special" significance. However, I dont think the kings of the south RECOGNIZED this as being meaningful and WANTED MORE. At the end of the 11th dynasty, there are two versions of what happened. Either Amenhemhat, who was a general under Montuhotep, USURPED the throne of MOntuhotep IV OR he was CO-REGENT (a co-reigning king from Ta-Seti). Either way, he was NOT from the royal line of the Montuhotep clan. Now, according to Egyptologists, these Nubian archers and others who were so prominent during the 11th dynasty were just bit players in Egypt's history.... Well, I believe that is NONSENSE. You cannot understand what happened in the 12th dynasty unless you understand what was happening in the South.
quote: Clayton, 1994, p85, tells us that Senusret III (c1878-1841BC) established a separate administration for the Head of the South (Elephantine and Lower Nubia) administered, like Upper and Lower Egypt, by a council of senior staff reporting to a vizier. Obviously great importance was placed on Lower Nubia at this time. A canal was rebuilt around the First Cataract at Aswan enabling easier access for troops and trading vessels to reach as far as Buhen and the Second Cataract. Goods from Upper Nubia and beyond were moved by boat on the Nile. These included ebony, ivory, spices, exotic fruit, live animals and skins. There were mines for gold, diorite and gneiss in the area (Manley, 1996, p19)
Amenhemhat is also signifigant because of another reason. HE and his descendants were the FIRST to make AMUN the state god at Karnak. It is during THIS time that Gebel Arkal was part of Egypt's southern territories and the worship of Amun ORIGINATED there. But dont expect Egyptologists to make that connection. As a matter of fact, did you know that Amenhemhat I was said to have sailed South to the ends of the Earth past KUSH? The first references to Kush, HOME of Amun are during his reign. Therefore, there should be NO QUESTION that THIS is when Amun was first seen and identified with the throne and the rulership of the two lands BECAUSE of the connection of the pharoahs to the SOUTH.
Read this page CAREFULLY and understand that MANY things are revealed here, but the Egyptologists prefer NOT to make the OBVIOUS connections: http://touregypt.net/hdyn12.htm
Another thing to note is that Senwosret III is venerated as a GOD in lower Sudan. Why? Why are these pharoahs who were SO active in Sudan venerated? What was the TRUE nature of their activities in the South and are the Egyptologists OVER emphasizing RACIAL and ETHNIC tensions over political tensions? I believe that the 11th and 12th dynasties were part of a campaign of civil strife in Egypt that kings to be assassinated and thrones usurped, with MANY of the USURPERS coming from the South. THIS is what brought Amun to Karnak, where he probably already was, but in a lesser role. However, seeing that these people were from the South were the worship of Amun was prominent in Sudan, it would make sense for them to make him the STATE god, symbolizing the role the SOUTH (I mean DEEP SOUTH) had in REUNIFYING the country.
More on Kush Egypt:
quote: The sculptors of Kush displayed a striking propensity for catching individual expressions and feelings underneath the stylized masks. The admirable "block statue" of the scribe Amenemhat with his knees drawn up before him looks Egyptian at first glance. Then, viewers become aware of the asymmetrical eyes, and the vicious glee that the smiling face conveys. William Davies, keeper of Ancient Egypt and Sudan at the British Museum, points out that Amenemhat, despite his Egyptian name, is known to have been a Nubian, a "member of an elite indigenous family from Teh-Khet (the modern region of Debeira and Serra), traceable over several generations, who were thoroughly 'Egyptianized' and governed their regions on behalf of the imperial administration."
The funny thing is that they call these guys "Egyptianized" without realizing WHY they called this area Teh Khet(Ta Khent) in the first place. Ta Khent means LAND OF THE BEGINNINGS/FOUNDERS. They ORIGINATED the Egyptian style in MANY ways. The page also notes how SPECIAL the relationship was between Ta Khent and Egypt, since these people were taken to Memphish for Education. You dont DO THAT for SUBJECTS or VASSALS. Therefore, Ta Khent/Ta Seti was MORE than a subject vassal state. However, if only looked at through the biased eyes of Egyptologists as "Nubians" you wont SEE that fact.
quote: That the Egyptian role was important during the Old Kingdom (2686 to 2181 B.C.) is perfectly clear. Dominique Valbelle writes in the exhibition book that the Nubian princes were brought to Memphis to receive an Egyptian education. From that time on, the Egyptian connection would never be severed, even when the pendulum of political power abruptly swung.
This shows how POWERFUL the kings/princes of Ta Seti were and how they were able to stage the RESURGENCE of Egypt's culture on a REGULAR basis. They were not subjects of Egypt in ANY sense of the word.
Even MOST Egyptologists acknowledge that Amenhemhat was from Ta Seti/Ta Khent (so called "Nubia") but how come they dont call THAT dynasty Nubian? In reality, the 25th dynasty was not NUBIAN either, it was KUSHITE.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: THIS is what brought Amun to Karnak, where he probably already was, but in a lesser role. However, seeing that these people were from the South were the worship of Amun was prominent in Sudan, it would make sense for them to make him the STATE god, symbolizing the role the SOUTH (I mean DEEP SOUTH) had in REUNIFYING the country.
This is great a post. You have began a discussion that can help us too see the true nature of Egyptians history.
The rise of Amun (Amma,Amman, etc.)as the principle God of the Egyptians is a clear indication of the southern origin of the 11 and 12 Dynasty. It is important to note that Amun/Amma was also the principle god of the Mande and Dravidian speaking people who were probably part of the C-Group culture.
If we look at Egyptian history based upon the information you provide in this post we see that the conflicts between "Kemit" and "Kush" were political , and not ethnic.
Again great post. Thanks for making us look at Egyptian history from a more African, than European way of thinking. If you have any more ideas on this topic please post them.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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DougM has made, in my opinion, very constructive contributions to this forum...
Aside from this important fact; there is the almost unconscious "parroting" by many here of the concept of "Nubian" (read: Negro/Black) dynasties with that of a supposedly "non-Nubian" dynasty.
This is an almost automatic response to the Western propagandizing of the false notion that Ancient Egypt was a civilization that was a "United Nation of all peoples, wherein each racial group would alternate rule." Which is utter nonsense.
From the beginning to the end of native Egyptian civilization, every dynasty was descended from the ancestors - Ta Seti, Ta Khent, Ethaoshi, Ekushi, Iau, Pwonit... - the South or Sudan (Nsuten) and those peoples. This is Ancient Egypt's most emphatic historical record of the legitimate/national dynasties. They couldn't have been more clearer on this point. In fact, they chose, because of the permanency of writing in stone, to entrust this history to that media; papyrus was far less resilient.
It seems, on the surface, very naive to even take such Western induced notions seriously. For this isn't a question of religion, philosophy, or opinions, but the facts as they are preserved for posterity from the Mdu Ntr, and which should be relayed to and repeated forever to the African peoples whose heritage this truly is, because it is they who created it...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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You bring up many great points about the 'Nubian' origins of the 12th Dynasty. You are correct to note how Egyptologists and other scholars have long emphasized that the 25th dynasty was "the Nubian Dynasty" but mention nothing about other Nubian connections.
What about the 18th Dynasty?? I have heard theories from some Egyptologists that they too are of 'Nubian' descent. The 18th Dynasty of Waset (Thebes) was begotten from the 17th dynasty which was said to hail from southern Upper Egypt. The 17th Dynasty king Sekenenra Tao and his family were said to have close ties to the Medjay nomads, and James Harris in his examination of Sekenenra's skull claimed that his facial complex looked 'Nubian'. Also, it was in the 17th-18th dynasties that we see the rise of the importance of the queen-mother which was said to be a 'Nubian' custom. With all of this in mind we can see how the rise of the 18th dynasty also fulfilled the prophecy of Neferti-- a king from the south by a Nubian woman who would vanquish the Asiatics.
Wally is correct that every time there is chaos and instability in the Kemeta nation, there would be a king from southern Upper Egypt usually with maternal Nubian ancestry that would assume the throne and restore order.
If the prophecy of Neferti was indeed created around the time of the 12th dynasty, do you find it coincidence that it was fulfilled later on?..
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Brilliant insights, Doug!
You bring up many great points about the 'Nubian' origins of the 12th Dynasty. You are correct to note how Egyptologists and other scholars have long emphasized that the 25th dynasty was "the Nubian Dynasty" but mention nothing about other Nubian connections.
What about the 18th Dynasty?? I have heard theories from some Egyptologists that they too are of 'Nubian' descent. The 18th Dynasty of Waset (Thebes) was begotten from the 17th dynasty which was said to hail from southern Upper Egypt. The 17th Dynasty king Sekenenra Tao and his family were said to have close ties to the Medjay nomads, and James Harris in his examination of Sekenenra's skull claimed that his facial complex looked 'Nubian'. Also, it was in the 17th-18th dynasties that we see the rise of the importance of the queen-mother which was said to be a 'Nubian' custom. With all of this in mind we can see how the rise of the 18th dynasty also fulfilled the prophecy of Neferti-- a king from the south by a Nubian woman who would vanquish the Asiatics.
Wally is correct that every time there is chaos and instability in the Kemeta nation, there would be a king from southern Upper Egypt usually with maternal Nubian ancestry that would assume the throne and restore order.
If the prophecy of Neferti was indeed created around the time of the 12th dynasty, do you find it coincidence that it was fulfilled later on?..
Alright alright lemme resurrect this mofo.....been a long time for this thread to be in the grave babes and imma take up Djehuti on his bump request Anyways..as far as I know..the only dynasty that can effectively be called Nubian (meaning whose founders/conquerors were either Nubian or had at least partial nubian ancestry) is the 25th..and about the 12th dynasty founder Amenehmat I having a nubian mother, it said (the self serving "prophecy of neferti") she was from ta-seti which was also the name of the first nome of egypt, so Amenemhat's roots were probably from around Aswan/Elphantine And why does Amun necessarily have to be a nubian god? couldnt he have just been a little known local theban god who rose to prominence due to that city being the capital of egypt during the Middle Kingdom? And unless theres proof that "Amun" is a loan word from nubian languages, I really dont see how Amun could be anything but local .
And to you djehuti, about queen mothers being a "nubian" cultural practice..well..do we have any info on nubian/kushite kingship before the area was egyptianized in the New kingdom? And do you know that queens taking power for themselves and being regents goes back all the way to the first dynasty (Merneith)? I say you're taking shots in the dark with all this gueeswork my man Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt, London. New York, Sheldon Press; Macmillan, 1939
Page 155:
"The Nubian Mixture: The later Hyksos were obviously decadent, and at last an invasion from the south threw them back northward and established a black queen as the divine ancestress of the 18th dynasty. Thus again a southern people reanimated Egypt, like the Sudani 3rd dynasty and the Galla 12th dynasty."
"The black queen Ahmos-Nefertari had an aquiline nose, long and thin, and was a type not in the least prognathous. Nefertari must have married a Libyan, as she was mother of Amenhetep I, who was a fair Libyan style. This black strain seems to have come through the Tao I and II ancestry; but the whole tangle of the 12th dynasty is complex, and very difficult to bring into a definite scheme, owing to the tombs having all been robbed, and the contents mixed by Arabs more than a century ago. In any case the main sources of the 18th dynasty were Nubian and Libyan, depicted black and yellow, but not red of the Egyptians."
--------- Petrie mentions Nefertari to have no prognathism, and Amenhotep I, to be a fair Lybian lol? But as we can see from James Harris and Edward Wente who conducted an x-ray analysis of the New Kingdom royal mummies with the results published in their book X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). Included in the work were cephalograms of Pharaohs of the XVII-XX Dynasties and their queens. That this is a flat out lie. Not sure to take Petrie too seriously on that one, being that he was an Egyptologist, which is just like Zahi Hawass making anthropological evaluations, when he can't.
Late XVII and XVIII Dynasties
Queen Ahmes-Nefertary
Father: Seqenenre Tao II or Kamose, Mother: Queen Ahhotep I or Queen Ahhotep II Strongly proclined incisors. Rounded forehead, sagittal flattening; rounded occiput. Somewhat forward zygomatic arches; pronounced alveolar prognathism. Steep mandible with squat ramus and receding chin.
Amenhotep I
Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary Rounded glabella, sloping forehead, sagittal plateau, rounded occiput. Zygomatic arches project forward. Moderate protrusion of upper incisors and pronounced prognathism. Receding chin and steeply inclined mandible.
------
Amenemhet I, 1st King (1991-1962 B.C.)
Details of the state of the country come from the 'Prophecy of Neferti' , a text said to date from the Old Kingdom which relates how a king 'Ameny' would come to save the country!
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he will join the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns) Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt . .
The 12th dynasty was due to the emergence of a ruling family from Nubia -- (Petrie, 1939, p. 176)
The Times (London) July 28, 2003, Monday SECTION: Overseas news; 8 HEADLINE: Tomb reveals Ancient Egypt's humiliating secret BYLINE: Dalya Alberge Dalya Alberge reports on how details of crushing defeat by another Nile superpower were kept hidden
Ancient Egyptians "airbrushed" out of history one of their most humiliating defeats in battle, academics believe.
In what the British Museum described as the discovery of a lifetime, a 3,500-year-old inscription shows that the Sudanese kingdom of Kush came close to destroying its northern neighbour.
The revelation is contained in 22 lines of sophisticated hieroglyphics deciphered by Egyptologists from the British Museum and Egypt after their discovery in February in a richly decorated tomb at ElKab, near Thebes, in Upper Egypt.
Vivian Davies, Keeper of the museum's Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan, said: "In many ways this is the discovery of a lifetime, one that changes the textbooks.
We're absolutely staggered by it."
The inscription details previously unknown important battles unprecedented "since the time of the god" -the beginning of time. Experts now believe that the humiliation of defeat was one that the Ancient Egyptians preferred to omit from their historical accounts.
Contemporary Egyptian descriptions had led historians to assume that the kingdom of Kush was a weak and barbaric neighbouring state for hundreds of years, although it boasted a complex society with vast resources of gold dominating the principal trade routes into the heart of Africa. It did eventually conquer Egypt, in the 8th century BC.
Mr Davies, who headed the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, said: "Now it is clear that Kush was a superpower which had the capacity to invade Egypt. It was a huge invasion, one that stirred up the entire region, a momentous event that is previously undocumented.
"They swept over the mountains, over the Nile, without limit. This is the first time we've got evidence. Far from Egypt being the supreme power of the Nile Valley, clearly Kush was at that time.
"Had they stayed to occupy Egypt, the Kushites might have eliminated it. That's how close Egypt came to extinction. But the Egyptians were resilient enough to survive, and shortly afterwards inaugurated the great imperial age known as the New Kingdom. The Kushites weren't interested in occupation. They went raiding for precious objects, a symbol of domination. They did a lot of damage."
The inscription was found between two internal chambers in a rock-cut tomb that was covered in soot and dirt. It appeared gradually as the grime was removed.
Mr Davies said: "I thought it would be a religious text, but it turned out to be historical. Gradually, a real narrative emerged, a brand new text inscribed in red paint, reading from right to left."
The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).
The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht's heroic role in organising a counter-attack.
The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: "Listen you, who are alive upon earth...Kush came...aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat...the land of Punt and the Medjaw..." It describes the decisive role played by "the might of the great one, Nekhbet", the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as "strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire", while the "chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame".
The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.
Mr Davies said: "That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It's the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings' power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures."
The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text "for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek-nakht". Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht's tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.
The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Great old thread. Is there any timelines that we can see online that list major events between Egypt/Kush that would list what is in the thread? Searched hard, found none.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:I believe that the 11th and 12th dynasties were part of a campaign of civil strife in Egypt that kings to be assassinated and thrones usurped, with MANY of the USURPERS coming from the South
Perhaps this can shed light on the massive fortifications built in "Nubia" during the 12th dynasty.
Also the Tale of Sinuhe which details an assasination attempt on the life of a Pharoah occurs in the 12ht dynasty.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt, London. New York, Sheldon Press; Macmillan, 1939
Page 155:
"The Nubian Mixture: The later Hyksos were obviously decadent, and at last an invasion from the south threw them back northward and established a black queen as the divine ancestress of the 18th dynasty. Thus again a southern people reanimated Egypt, like the Sudani 3rd dynasty and the Galla 12th dynasty."
"The black queen Ahmos-Nefertari had an aquiline nose, long and thin, and was a type not in the least prognathous. Nefertari must have married a Libyan, as she was mother of Amenhetep I, who was a fair Libyan style. This black strain seems to have come through the Tao I and II ancestry; but the whole tangle of the 12th dynasty is complex, and very difficult to bring into a definite scheme, owing to the tombs having all been robbed, and the contents mixed by Arabs more than a century ago. In any case the main sources of the 18th dynasty were Nubian and Libyan, depicted black and yellow, but not red of the Egyptians."
--------- Petrie mentions Nefertari to have no prognathism, and Amenhotep I, to be a fair Lybian lol? But as we can see from James Harris and Edward Wente who conducted an x-ray analysis of the New Kingdom royal mummies with the results published in their book X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). Included in the work were cephalograms of Pharaohs of the XVII-XX Dynasties and their queens. That this is a flat out lie. Not sure to take Petrie too seriously on that one, being that he was an Egyptologist, which is just like Zahi Hawass making anthropological evaluations, when he can't.
Late XVII and XVIII Dynasties
Queen Ahmes-Nefertary
Father: Seqenenre Tao II or Kamose, Mother: Queen Ahhotep I or Queen Ahhotep II Strongly proclined incisors. Rounded forehead, sagittal flattening; rounded occiput. Somewhat forward zygomatic arches; pronounced alveolar prognathism. Steep mandible with squat ramus and receding chin.
Amenhotep I
Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary Rounded glabella, sloping forehead, sagittal plateau, rounded occiput. Zygomatic arches project forward. Moderate protrusion of upper incisors and pronounced prognathism. Receding chin and steeply inclined mandible.
------
Amenemhet I, 1st King (1991-1962 B.C.)
Details of the state of the country come from the 'Prophecy of Neferti' , a text said to date from the Old Kingdom which relates how a king 'Ameny' would come to save the country!
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he will join the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns) Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt . .
The 12th dynasty was due to the emergence of a ruling family from Nubia -- (Petrie, 1939, p. 176)
The Times (London) July 28, 2003, Monday SECTION: Overseas news; 8 HEADLINE: Tomb reveals Ancient Egypt's humiliating secret BYLINE: Dalya Alberge Dalya Alberge reports on how details of crushing defeat by another Nile superpower were kept hidden
Ancient Egyptians "airbrushed" out of history one of their most humiliating defeats in battle, academics believe.
In what the British Museum described as the discovery of a lifetime, a 3,500-year-old inscription shows that the Sudanese kingdom of Kush came close to destroying its northern neighbour.
The revelation is contained in 22 lines of sophisticated hieroglyphics deciphered by Egyptologists from the British Museum and Egypt after their discovery in February in a richly decorated tomb at ElKab, near Thebes, in Upper Egypt.
Vivian Davies, Keeper of the museum's Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan, said: "In many ways this is the discovery of a lifetime, one that changes the textbooks.
We're absolutely staggered by it."
The inscription details previously unknown important battles unprecedented "since the time of the god" -the beginning of time. Experts now believe that the humiliation of defeat was one that the Ancient Egyptians preferred to omit from their historical accounts.
Contemporary Egyptian descriptions had led historians to assume that the kingdom of Kush was a weak and barbaric neighbouring state for hundreds of years, although it boasted a complex society with vast resources of gold dominating the principal trade routes into the heart of Africa. It did eventually conquer Egypt, in the 8th century BC.
Mr Davies, who headed the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, said: "Now it is clear that Kush was a superpower which had the capacity to invade Egypt. It was a huge invasion, one that stirred up the entire region, a momentous event that is previously undocumented.
"They swept over the mountains, over the Nile, without limit. This is the first time we've got evidence. Far from Egypt being the supreme power of the Nile Valley, clearly Kush was at that time.
"Had they stayed to occupy Egypt, the Kushites might have eliminated it. That's how close Egypt came to extinction. But the Egyptians were resilient enough to survive, and shortly afterwards inaugurated the great imperial age known as the New Kingdom. The Kushites weren't interested in occupation. They went raiding for precious objects, a symbol of domination. They did a lot of damage."
The inscription was found between two internal chambers in a rock-cut tomb that was covered in soot and dirt. It appeared gradually as the grime was removed.
Mr Davies said: "I thought it would be a religious text, but it turned out to be historical. Gradually, a real narrative emerged, a brand new text inscribed in red paint, reading from right to left."
The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).
The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht's heroic role in organising a counter-attack.
The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: "Listen you, who are alive upon earth...Kush came...aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat...the land of Punt and the Medjaw..." It describes the decisive role played by "the might of the great one, Nekhbet", the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as "strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire", while the "chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame".
The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.
Mr Davies said: "That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It's the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings' power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures."
The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text "for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek-nakht". Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht's tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.
The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.
Alright my man knowledge, you just need to know that Petrie, despite his innumerable and invaluable contributions to egyptology, put forth alot of theories that were uh, kinda full of it .(take his infamous dynastic race theory for instance ) For example. every time he saw a egyptian statue or a dynasty of egyptian statues that showed pronounced african features, he said this was due to a "nubian invasion" instead of going with the easy explanation and just saying that these folks were just native egyptians . So use more up to date sources than Petrie ya know?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
oh and about the article about the kushite invasion of egypt right before the 18th dynasty, good job . We're just beginning to discover how big of a threat, and a superpower, Kush (Kerma) was becoming during the Second Intermediate Period, and if my sources serve me correct, wasnt Kerma bigger in territory than egypt during this time?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Though that scenario is possible, the conventional also has merit.
Amenemhet I, who was probably Mentuhoteps Vizier, named Amenemhet. Was very fond of inscriptions to grease the skids for himself. He recorded an inscription when Mentuhotep IV sent him to Wadi Hammamt. The inscription records two omens. The first tells of a gazelle that gave birth to her calf atop the stone that had been chosen for the lid of Mentuhotep IVs sarcophagus. The second was of a ferocious rainstorm, that when subsided, disclosed a well 10 cubits square and full of water. Of course that was a very good omen in this barren landscape.
Many Egyptologists believe that Amenemhet's inscription implies that a great ruler will come to the throne of Egypt upon the death of Mentuhotep IV, one who will lead the country into prosperity. It is fairly certain that Amenemhet the vizier was predicting his own rise to the throne as Amenemhet I.
Though there is uncertainty as to whether this inscription belongs to Amenemhet I or his successor - Senusret I. The issue is the meaning of Ta-Seti.
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he will join the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns) Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
i.e. The First Sepat/Nome of Upper Egypt is known by two names: Ta Khentit which means the Arch and Ta Seti meaning the Frontier. The area incorporated the area around the first cataract, the neighboring islands, and the nearby shoreline of the Nile, and stretched north to Gebel el-Silsila.
It should also be remembered that literary works and inscriptions were purposeful. The Instructions of Amenemhet I, reflecting the king's tragic end, was obviously the work of his son Senusret I. It presents the account of Amenemhet I's murder, supposedly provided by the king himself from beyond the grave:
"It was after supper, when night had fallen, and I had spent an hour of happiness. I was asleep upon my bed, having become weary, and my heart had begun to follow sleep. When weapons of my counsel were wielded, I had become like a snake of the necropolis. As I came to, I awoke to fighting, and found that it was an attack of the bodyguard. If I had quickly taken weapons in my hand, I would have made the wretches retreat with a charge! But there is none mighty in the night, none who can fight alone; no success will come without a helper. Look, my injury happened while I was without you, when the entourage had not yet heard that I would hand over to you when I had not yet sat with you, that I might make counsels for you; for I did not plan it, I did not foresee it, and my heart had not taken thought of the negligence of servants."
But most troubling to me is how could things have changed so much in just 100 years. By the time of the 5th King Senusret III.
While there had been fortifications built in Nubia - Amenemhet II and Senusret II - Senusret III's predecessors, had not been extremely active in Nubia militarily, and some Nubian groups had gradually been moving north, past the Third Cataract. Accordingly, Senusret III initiated a series of devastating campaigns in Nubia very early in his reign (perhaps year 6), in order to secure his southern borders and protect the trading routes and mineral resources. Apparently the Nubians were a troublesome lot during his reign, for Senusret III would again have to mount campaigns in at least the years 8, 10, 16 and 19 of his reign.
Regardless, these campaigns seem to have been for the most part successful, for the king had inscribed on a great stele at Semna, erected in year 8 of his rule - now in the Berlin museum - "I carried off their women, I carried off their subjects, went forth to their wells, smote their bulls; I reaped their grain, and set fire thereto". In other words, he killed their men, enslaved their women and children, burnt their crops and poisoned their wells.
The stele also provides that no Nubians were allowed to take their herds or boats to the north of the specified border. To facilitate these military actions in Nubia, he had an existing bypass canal around the First Cataract (rapids) at Aswan, originally dug in Old Kingdom time by Merenre, Pepi I had cleared, broadened and deepened it. According to an inscription, Senusret III had it repaired again in year eight of his reign. This canal was near the island of Sehel. His predecessors had also established a policy of building fortresses in Nubia, but in order to further secure the area, Senusret III built more fortresses then any of the other Middle Kingdom rulers. In the 40 mile length of the Second Cataract in Lower (northern) Nubia there were no less then eight such fortresses between Semna and Buhen.
These fortresses were in close contact with each other, and with the region's vizier, reporting the slightest movements of Nubians. At least some of the fortresses appear also to have been specialized. For example, the one at Mirgissa was more involved with trade, whereas others, such as the fortress at Askut, were used as supply depots for campaigns into Upper (southern) Nubia. Senusret III managed to expand Egypt's boarders further south then any other ruler before him, of this he was proud. A stele at Semna with a duplicate at Uronarti records:
{If Senusret IIIs ancestors were really Nubian, could he really do those things, and cause this to be written.}
"I have made my boundary further south than my fathers, I have added to what was bequeathed me. I am a king who speaks and acts, What my heart plans is done by my arm. One who attacks to conquer, who is swift to succeed, ln whose heart a plan does not slumber. Considerate to clients, steady in mercy, Merciless to the foe who attacks him. One who attacks him who would attack, Who stops when one stops, Who replies to a matter as befits it. To stop when attacked is to make bold the foe's heart, Attack is valor, retreat is cowardice, A coward is he who is driven from his border. Since the Nubian listens to the word of mouth, To answer him is to make him retreat. Attack him, he will turn his back, Retreat, he will start attacking. They are not people one respects, they are wretches, craven-hearted. My majesty has seen it, it is not an untruth. I have captured their women, I have carried off their subjects, Went to their wells, killed their cattle, Cut down their grain, set fire to it. As my father lives for me, I speak the truth! It is no boast that comes from my mouth."
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^It's okay if you can't be bothered to read it.
yea i read what doug was saying , although it was a bit lenghty dawg! but im asking you...do you disagree with his positions about the origins of the 12th dynasty?
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posted
Actually, the point I was making in the thread is that the situation in the 11th and 12th dynasty was based on a fragmentation of the Egyptian state, where many rival mini states emerged under various chiefs. Many of these chiefs used southerners in their armies. And it was this southern military support that ultimately helped put an end to the fragmentation and reunify the country. But part of the problem of having southerners playing such an important role is that they therefore wanted more power in the land they helped reunify. The close interaction with Egypt and the South in this period meant that some of these princes would have been jockeying for power. So, Amenhemaat, ostensibly from the south, rises to the throne possibly due to a coup. Then he himself is killed (due to a royal harem conspiracy). The point is that southerners were rivals to the throne of Egypt, as well as important trading partners and military allies. Historically, it is the military allies that often challenge the throne of a kingdom the most. Therefore, while Amenhemaat and others were from the south, they probably viewed the south as a threat and decided to keep them from challenging the throne, while at the same time protecting vital trade routes. Many writers have noted that like Buhen did not show hardly any signs of warfare and that the local population was not much of a threat. The relationship between Egypt and its southern regions is as complex and should not be over simplified in to Egypt versus "Nubia".
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posted
Kesh was intertwined with Kmt as both shared a joint ethnic origin in prehistory. For the Kmtyw, Amami, the ancestral Godland was to the south and Kesh stood in between. Because of an especially holy site at the 4th cataract a few individual Nhsyw families had a certain claim to rulership over all Ta Akht.
What to some may seem very ironic is that the name Senwosret comes from the Uahka family. This Theban family can be traced back to the 6th dynasty. At that time they were architects who built temples near Abydos at Qua. That the Uahka were of Nhsyw origins us attested by their burial tombs. The design is unknown in Kmt but common in Kesh. The pharaoh of the famous conquest stele labeling Nhsyw cowards yet fearful of them taking over the land bit by bit was Senwosret III himself of Nhsy ancestry!
But which ethny of Nehesi in particular?
Petrie thought the 12th dynasty was founded by Galla. I don't know if he means the Oromo or if he means the Shangalla.
quote:The Galla Penetration. It has long ago been remarked that the black sphinxes, later appropriated by the Hyksos, approximated to the Galla type of Abyssinia.
. . . .
This starts an enquiry how the Galla connection could thus appear on monuments. In the clearance and planning of the rock tombs at Qau, Antaeopolis, the peculiar plan of those tombs, with great halls and small chambers annexed, was observed to be closely parallel to that of later Nubian temples. In both tomb and temple the chief work is in the solid rock, while the forecourt is of masonry constructed in front of it. Another peculiarity was the hammer-work excavation of one tomb, which had evidently been done with stone balls, as in the Aswan granite working, and this implies a southern connection.
. . . .
Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber, is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche. As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas.
The Uahka werent the only family nor the 12th the only dynasty of Nhsw influence from origins in Kesh.
There was an intimate if exploitive sibling relationship between T3Wy and Kesh. Brothers veigh for dominance one over the other yet they remain the same family. Still there are differences between even identical twin brothers. Egypt embraced writing while Kesh eschewed it for the longest time and Egypt did rank Kesh among the Nine Bows clear until late New Kingdom times.
The important thing to remember is that certain Keshite families always, since the foundation of the Dynastic period, had a right to the throne of T3Wy because of their noble status in Gebel Barkal the prime residence of Amun the father of legitimacy to rulership.
Gebel Barkal was way up south at the fourth cataract. Yet it was the seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. Among others too numerous to list
Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi
the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the first two kings of the 5th dynasty
the Uakha family established the 12th dynasty
Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uakha name
the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uakha connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal
Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marrige in the Uakha family legitimized his natural right to the throne
the 14th dyanastys second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche
Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail
the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht
in truth pharoanic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal
The kings of Kush were known to have a certain claim on Kmt's throne. Zanakht of the 3rd dynasty has strong Nhsw facial features. His line apparently died out. The 9th and 10th dynasty Uahka family of Thebes were buried in tombs of type unknown in Kmt but of design in Kush. The Uahka family has been traced back to the 6th dynasty builders of the temples at Qua near Abydos. Senusret is a name from the Uahka family, one of whose members took on the name Amenemhet to honor Amen the major deity of Thebes. This family established the 12th dynasty. Comparison of skull measurements reveals an exceedingly close relationship between the Uahka family and the modern Shangalla (non-Abyssinian) type of Ethiopian bordering Sudan.
Amenemhet I warred against Wawat pushing south far enough to establish a center of trade in Kerma at the 3rd catarct. Senusret I mentions the Akherkin, Kas, Khesaa, Shat, and Shemyk among the peoples of Wawat that he subdued. Senwosret III annexed Wawat up to the 2nd cataract as the southern border of Kmt.
Because of their propensities for independence the Senwosrets found it necessary to wage war against Wawat. On their defeat a string of fortresses were built. These were at Buhen, Kor, Dorginarti, Mirgissa, Dabenarti, Askut, Shalfak, Uronarti, Kumma, and Semna.
Nonetheless the kinship between the peoples of the lower and middle Nile Valleys must not be forgotten. Especially of note is the middle Nile Valley dwellers' attitude as to the status of the lower Nile Valley.
quote:... the Egyptian pharaohs of Dynasty 18 had recognized Gebel Barkal as an ancient source of Egyptian kingship and had themselves crowned there to affirm their rule, the new kings of Kush rediscovered this tradition and [] used it to prove their right to rule Egypt. Since the first to recognize the religious significance of Gebel Barkal had been the Pharoah Thutmose III (ca. 1479-1425 BC)[.]
. . . .
If [Keshites] have traditionally been portrayed by historians s "foreigners" in Egypt, they surely did not see themselves as such, despite their different ethnic, cultural and linguistic origin. In their minds Egypt and Kush were northern and southern halves of an ancient original domain of Amun. These two lands, they believed, had been united in mythological times; subsequently they grew apart, to be united again in historical times only by the greatest pharaohs. As "sons" of Amun, the Napatan monarchs saw themselves as heirs of those pharaohs [. . .] believ[ing] they were the god's representatives - from his southern sphere - chosen to unite and protect his ancient empire and to restore ma'at - "truth, order, and propriety" in the Egyptian sense - throughout the land.
It all boils down to cultural spirituality and the "kingship" deity of the matured middle and lower Nile valley in the days of empire that had been perculating since before either kingdom emerged.
I think that Gebel Barka was known to the A Group originators of the royalty concept of dynasty 0 and possibly the first attempts of state unification (judging by the finds of Qustul). I imagine the reason that certain NHHSYW females endowed their husbands or sons with a natural and undisputed right to the throne of T3Wy was because they hailed from the right family from Gebel Barkal of old from before the times of dynastic Egypt, and here's why:
quote: ... long before the Egyptians had set eyes on Gebel Barkal, the Nubians, too, had held it sacred. Although no pre-Egyptian settlement or cultic remains have yet been found there, unstratified Nubian pottery has been recovered, dating from the Neolithic, Pre-Kerma, and Kerma periods. This indicates that the site must have been occupied at least since the fourth millennium BC. The discovery on the summit of Gebel Barkal of thousands of chipped stone wasters, made of types of stones that can only be found on the desert floor, suggests that people brought stones to the summit to work them, a practice that implies a religious motivation. Likewise, the similarity between the sanctuary at Barkal, as it appeared in the Egyptian and Kushite periods, and that of Kerma, as it appeared at the end of the Classic Kerma phase, may suggest that there was a pre- Egyptian cultic connection between Gebel Barkal and the "Western Deffufa" at Kerma. There exists at least the possibility that the latter, a rectangular, brick built, mountain-like platform 19 m high, may have been built at Kerma as a magical substitute or "double" of Gebel Barkal. After all, complexes of temples were built in front of each, and each was conceived as the dwelling place of a powerful god.
There is no doubt that the Egyptians, and probably, too, the earlier Nubians, attached sacred significance to Gebel Barkal because of its bizarre form. Not only was the hill isolated on a flat desert plain and possessed of a spectacular cliff, 90 m high and 200 m long, its southwestern corner was marked by an enormous free-standing pinnacle, nearly 75 m high (fig.5). This monolith had all the appearance of a statue, but without precise form, and it could be imagined in many ways simultaneously. On the one hand, it could be seen as the figure of a standing king or god, wearing the White Crown. It could be seen as an erect phallus. It could also be seen as a rearing cobra (uraeus), wearing the White Crown. Ancient documents, both written and pictorial, reveal that the rock was imagined as all these things at once and was thus venerated as the source of the divine power of all the various things it represented. As a crowned human figure, it would have represented the living king or the ultimate royal ancestor, or the god himself. As a phallus, it would have represented Amun as father and procreator. As uraeus, it would have represented each and every goddess and all female creative power. It was thus father, mother, and royal child combined as one - which was apparently the very meaning of "Kamutef." Gebel Barkal, by means of the phallic-shaped pinnacle, not only confirmed the presence of Amun, it also had precisely the form of the Primeval Hill of Egyptian tradition, on which the Creator was thought to have appeared at the beginning of time and generated the first gods through an act of masturbation.
So as early as dynasty 3 Zanakht sits the throne.
4th dynasty queen Khentkaues births the first kings of the 5th dynasty.
In the 6th dynasty the Uahka family is building NHHSY architected tombs in T3Wy
The 12th dynasty is established by the Uahka family and kings bear the name of Amun in their own names just as Keshite kings will bear Amani names.
To my mind this shows a pre-18th dynasty affiliation of Amun among the NHHSYW most likely associated with Gebel Barkal. Where else would the prominence of Amun stem from that it was not used in T3Wy in kings' names before introduced by a dynasty of NHHSY roots?
Yet, some have still proposed Amun to have travelled in the reverse direction. from ERNEST A. WALLIS BUDGE TUTANKHAMEN AMENISM, ATENISM AND EGYPTIAN MONOTHEISM New York: Dodd, Mead & Co. 1923 Chap 2 TUTANKHAMEN AND THE CULT OF AMEN http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut05.htm
quote: THE early history of the god Amen is somewhat obscure, and his origin is unknown. The name Amen means "hidden (one)," a title which might be applied to many gods. A god Amen and his consort Ament or Amenit are mentioned in the Pyramid Texts (UNAS, line 558), where they are grouped with Nau and Nen, and with the two Lion gods Shu and Tefnut. This Amen was regarded as an ancient nature-god by the priests of Heliopolis under the Vth dynasty, and it is possible that many of his attributes were transferred at a very early period to Amen, the great god of Thebes. Though recent excavations have shown that a cult of Amen existed at Thebes under the Ancient Empire, it is doubtful if it possessed any more than a local importance until the XIIth dynasty. When the princes of Thebes conquered their rivals in the north and obtained the sovereignty of Egypt, their god Amen and his priesthood became a great power in the land, and an entirely new temple was built by them, in his honour, at Karnak on the right bank of the Nile. The temple was quite small, and resembled in form and arrangement some of the small Nubian temples; it consisted of a shrine, with a few small chambers grouped about it, and a forecourt, with a colonnade on two sides of it. Amen was not the oldest god worshipped there, and his sanctuary seems to have absorbed the shrine of the ancient goddess Apit. ...
Although the kings of the XIIth dynasty were Thebans it is possible that they and many of their finest warriors had Sudani blood in their veins, and the attributes that they ascribed to Amen were similar to those that the Nubian peoples assigned to their indigenous gods. To them Amen symbolized the hidden but irresistible power that produces conception and growth in human beings and in the animal and vegetable worlds. And in some places in Egypt, and Nubia and the Oases, the symbol of the god Amen was either the umbilicus 1 or the gravid womb. The symbol of Amen that was shown to Alexander the Great, when he visited the temple of Jupiter Ammon in the Oasis of Siwah, was an object closely resembling the umbilicus, and it was inlaid with emeralds (turquoises?) and other precious stones--umbilico maxime similis est habitus, smaragdo et gemmis coagmentatus.
Despite the fact of the relative obscurity of Amen before the Uahka family's 12th dynasty boosting of his importance and the "Nubian" style temple devoted to him, the author of the above states that Egypt carrried Amun into "Nubia."
But that shouldn't be the last word and prime thought left in mind by this post.
While Egyptians did in fact rule over Wawat and even Kush, no Egyptian ever sat astride the throne of Kush. To the contrary Kushites sat on the Amun Seat both in Kush and in Egypt and their empire extended over more Nile and Rift valleys territory than perhaps even did Egypt.
posted
Gebel Barkal actually became a coronation center in the New Kingdom for Kmt:
quote: Throughout most of the history of Kush, Gebel Barkal appears to have been the primary center of royal coronations and kingship ritual. For centuries each new king of Kush came to Gebel Barkal to be confirmed and crowned by the god who dwelt within the mountain, just as kings very likely did during the New Kingdom. Throughout his reign each king of Kush also consulted the god¹s oracle on matters of state and the conduct of war. Until the early third century BC, the same oracle was even said to inform the king by letter of the moment when his reign should end, ordering him to commit suicide. This custom was reportedly abolished by a King Ergamenes, who, so condemned, took matters into his own hands, went to the temple with his troops and slew the priests. The veracity of this tradition is suggested by the fact that until the third century BC, the kings traveled the 230 km from Meroë to Napata for burial in pyramids erected for them across the river from Gebel Barkal at Nuri (fig.8). Given the existence there of a Valley Temple, apparently for mummification, one must assume that most of them made the journey to the cemetery alive.
posted
The phenotype of the "Hyksos" sphinxes and thus the Uakha/Amenemhet/Senwosret"clan" was the Shangalla.
Maybe you can dig up photos of the sphinxes and some Shangalla for comparison? Thanks.
In the broadside Black Manhood by Tarharqa diverse southern types for various dynasties are proposed.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Gebel Barkal actually became a coronation center in the New Kingdom for Kmt:
quote: Throughout most of the history of Kush, Gebel Barkal appears to have been the primary center of royal coronations and kingship ritual. For centuries each new king of Kush came to Gebel Barkal to be confirmed and crowned by the god who dwelt within the mountain, just as kings very likely did during the New Kingdom. Throughout his reign each king of Kush also consulted the god¹s oracle on matters of state and the conduct of war. Until the early third century BC, the same oracle was even said to inform the king by letter of the moment when his reign should end, ordering him to commit suicide. This custom was reportedly abolished by a King Ergamenes, who, so condemned, took matters into his own hands, went to the temple with his troops and slew the priests. The veracity of this tradition is suggested by the fact that until the third century BC, the kings traveled the 230 km from Meroë to Napata for burial in pyramids erected for them across the river from Gebel Barkal at Nuri (fig.8). Given the existence there of a Valley Temple, apparently for mummification, one must assume that most of them made the journey to the cemetery alive.
About gebel barkal, I read some article by the same guy (Timothy Kendall) that gebel barkal was the inspiration for the white crown (which is worn by the God Amun) and that the nubians actually brought the idea of the crown to egypt via Qustul, and thats the reason why gebel barkal was such a sacred site for egyptians..ya read an article like that Doug?
And wats with all the pictures of east africans? lol..
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: How about the Egyptians were North East Africans.....
well the oromo are from ethiopia...and last time i checked ethiopia was in east africa, so dont get smart wit me boi Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In other words, why would it be shocking that Egyptians looked like East Africans when Egypt is in North EAST Africa?
Or are you suggesting a NON North EAST African origin for he ancient Egyptians?
Dude im not surprised at the similiarities at all, dont put words in my mouth dumbasss Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
"Caucasian" looking North East AFrican Egyptian:
Another East African looking Egyptian:
And another
And as for the association between KMT and so-called Nubia, observe the fact that the pharaohs used red topped pottery as part of their religious ceremonies THROUGHOUT dynastic Egyptian history. Yet we are told that such black topped pottery is supposedly "Nubian"......
"Nubian" black topped pottery from Kerma:
"Nubian" c-group or pan grave pottery from Riheh (2nd intermediate period):
quote: Petrie excavated at Rifeh some 'pan graves' (Petrie 1907: 20-21), belonging to Nubian people living in Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period. The following pottery most likely comes from Rifeh, although this is not always certain. Pan grave pottery is very similar to C-Group pottery. The surface is decorated with incised patterns. Other vessels are reddish-brown with a black top, very similar to the 'Kerma beakers', but not polished. Pan graves also contained a large number of Egyptian objects, with evidence for increasing absorption into the Egyptian way of life in the course of the Second Intermediate Period.
Now, put into its proper context, you see that the pan grave or c-group "nubians" who settled in Egypt during the second intermediate period are more likely the allies that helped expel the Hyksos. The question is whether this period introduced black topped pottery into Egyptian religious ceremonies or was this only the legacy of a far older connection between the two cultures. It is most likely the latter as the black topped pottery of Sudan and Egypt is a quite ancient tradition, although most Egyptologists tend to pass it off as a distinctly "Nubian" one.
But of course the silliness of trying to distinguish populations by pottery is a uniquely European aspect of Egyptology. Black topped pottery is a continuous tradition of the Nile Valley from Sudan to Upper Egypt, going back thousands of years.
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... the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. ... The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho.
We must progress beyond simple generalities (like NE Africans look like NE Africans) to precision (like Amenemhet and the 12 dynasty are of Galla extraction).
It's to that end that the ImageMaster juxtaposed Amenemhet's sphinx and a Galla to drive home the point -- j/p et al .
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sphinx of Amenhemet III:
Galla/Oromo Chief:
Doug doug we get it the egyptians looked like east Africans! lol j/p..
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: NE Africans looking like NE Africans is peripheral to the point. The point is that the 12th dynasty was a Galla founded dynasty.
As in Petrie references cited by KnowlwedgeWhiskey
quote: ... a southern people reanimated Egypt, like the Sudani 3rd dynasty and the Galla 12th dynasty.
. . . .
The 12th dynasty was due to the emergence of a ruling family from Nubia
Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt London. New York, Sheldon Press; Macmillan, 1939 p 155, 176
and quoted from Petrie by myself in specific reference to the misappropriated "Hyksos" sphinxes
... the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. ... The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho.
We must progress beyond simple generalities (like NE Africans look like NE Africans) to precision (like Amenemhet and the 12 dynasty are of Galla extraction).
It's to that end that the ImageMaster juxtaposed Amenemhet's sphinx and a Galla to drive home the point -- j/p rt al .
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sphinx of Amenhemet III:
Galla/Oromo Chief:
Doug doug we get it the egyptians looked like east Africans! lol j/p..
So al-takuri you got any evidence for your claim that the Galla/Oromo ethnic group founded the 12th dynasty?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Lord in heaven, how many times do you need it posted in the same thread?
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Lord in heaven, how many times do you need it posted in the same thread?
Uh yea..i see the same **** being posted over and over again.. the outdated and radical claims of a long dead egyptologist. (no diss) Why couldnt the 12th dynasty founders just have been native egyptians? Peep this quote by Keita:
Comments and Studies on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships S.O.Y. Keita (1993):
"Petrie's (1939: 105) interpretation of Dynasty III as having come from the Sudan is based on portraiture. ....Dynasty III can be seen as having terminated the Thinite Period, or having begun the Old Kingdom, and had Upper Egyptian origins. There is no need to bring this "Negroid" Sudanese phenotype from the "Sudan" since it Existed in Southern Egypt. "
So in other words, by saying that the black egyptian rulers HAD to come from Nubia, you're subconsciously denying that Egypt itself was African! Deprogram yourself of the eurocentric nonsense!
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I wish there was a bookmark feature on this forum!
What makes you say that? You agree with my above post?
I want to save this thread. And other informative threads. Some have already been lost.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The point is that the 12th dynasty was a Galla founded dynasty.
Evergreen Writes:
I am assuming you mean that the 12th dynasty was founded by a population **also** ancestral to the modern Galla. There is no historic record of a people known as the Galla during the Dynastic era.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:So in other words, by saying that the black egyptian rulers HAD to come from Nubia, you're subconsciously denying that Egypt itself was African! Deprogram yourself of the eurocentric nonsense!
One of the most hypocritical examples of aparthied ideology being applied by 'non racial' historians is found in the way they draw and ideological line - which procribes -> NEVER can one be Black and Ancient Egyptian.
Anyone from the ancient Nile Valley civilisation whose Blackness cannot be questioned MUST be placed in the catagory of Nubian, not Egyptian.
It's quite psychotic, and it's important to understand why the non-racial school must maintain this savagely racist premise.
Once they admit to ANY Black ancient Egyptians....they are on a slippery slope, and there is no end to it.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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There is no one people alone who are Galla anyway. Galla basically means a "non-Abyssinian Ethiopian." There are several ethnies employing the Galla label.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The point is that the 12th dynasty was a Galla founded dynasty.
Evergreen Writes:
I am assuming you mean that the 12th dynasty was founded by a population **also** ancestral to the modern Galla. There is no historic record of a people known as the Galla during the Dynastic era.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Elements of the population which became Egyptian issued from the south as well as the west. All members of these source populations didn't migrate. So what if certain Egyptians look like their ancestors that stayed put? How does that take the black off them.
BTW I'm the one responsible for translating and interpreting an Egyptian resurrection text that beyond all doubt proves they called themselves black just like they called the southerners black.
Pinpointing the precise ethnies who migrated north at the foundation of the nation or even later in time doesn't expunge Egypt of blackness. It strengthens te assertion by showing just who these blacks were who made the downriver migration.
KM.t.nwt doesn't just mean the Egyptians. It's a category that includes RT.rmt (Egyptians) and NHHSW (Sudanese and further south&southwest southerners).
Stick that in your Eurocentric pipe and smoke on it (along with all my other contributions on the kinship -- parent-child/sibling -- relationship between Sudan &Ethiopia and Egypt).
It's easy to rant and rave eurocentric racism. It's hard to do Egyptological research to present a proactive rather than reactive account of the fount of African Classical Civilization from the Great Lakes to the Mediterranean all along the extensive Nile River Valley corridors (Blue, White, and Black Niles).
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Lord in heaven, how many times do you need it posted in the same thread?
Uh yea..i see the same **** being posted over and over again.. the outdated and radical claims of a long dead egyptologist. (no diss) Why couldnt the 12th dynasty founders just have been native egyptians? Peep this quote by Keita:
Comments and Studies on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships S.O.Y. Keita (1993):
"Petrie's (1939: 105) interpretation of Dynasty III as having come from the Sudan is based on portraiture. ....Dynasty III can be seen as having terminated the Thinite Period, or having begun the Old Kingdom, and had Upper Egyptian origins. There is no need to bring this "Negroid" Sudanese phenotype from the "Sudan" since it Existed in Southern Egypt. "
So in other words, by saying that the black egyptian rulers HAD to come from Nubia, you're subconsciously denying that Egypt itself was African! Deprogram yourself of the eurocentric nonsense!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since very few rulers of Egypt were anything other than black and I show a small subset of them to be family-named, physically, architecturally, and religiously of a type today called Galla,
where do you you find me writing that black rulers of Egypt HAD to be Sudanese? Have we suddenly forgotten the words of Neferti's Prophecy on the founder of this specific dynasty?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:So in other words, by saying that the black egyptian rulers HAD to come from Nubia, you're subconsciously denying that Egypt itself was African! Deprogram yourself of the eurocentric nonsense!
One of the most hypocritical examples of aparthied ideology being applied by 'non racial' historians is found in the way they draw and ideological line - which procribes -> NEVER can one be Black and Ancient Egyptian.
Anyone from the ancient Nile Valley civilisation whose Blackness cannot be questioned MUST be placed in the catagory of Nubian, not Egyptian.
It's quite psychotic, and it's important to understand why the non-racial school must maintain this savagely racist premise.
Once they admit to ANY Black ancient Egyptians....they are on a slippery slope, and there is no end to it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Since very few rulers of Egypt were anything other than black and I show a small subset of them to be family-named, physically, architecturally, and religiously of a type today called Galla,
where do you you find me writing that black rulers of Egypt HAD to be Sudanese?
^ Careful. I didn't say that you did. Nor am I commenting on the relationship between 12th dynasty Egyptians and Galla. My reply isn't a criticism of anything you wrote. It's about the flawed concept of Nubian dynasty, which I don't think you are defending, and which is, after all...the title of the thread.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hahaha..takuri you must have ridden the small bus to school, cause you have no f&*%ing idea of what i just said Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Since very few rulers of Egypt were anything other than black and I show a small subset of them to be family-named, physically, architecturally, and religiously of a type today called Galla,
where do you you find me writing that black rulers of Egypt HAD to be Sudanese? Have we suddenly forgotten the words of Neferti's Prophecy on the founder of this specific dynasty?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:So in other words, by saying that the black egyptian rulers HAD to come from Nubia, you're subconsciously denying that Egypt itself was African! Deprogram yourself of the eurocentric nonsense!
One of the most hypocritical examples of aparthied ideology being applied by 'non racial' historians is found in the way they draw and ideological line - which procribes -> NEVER can one be Black and Ancient Egyptian.
Anyone from the ancient Nile Valley civilisation whose Blackness cannot be questioned MUST be placed in the catagory of Nubian, not Egyptian.
It's quite psychotic, and it's important to understand why the non-racial school must maintain this savagely racist premise.
Once they admit to ANY Black ancient Egyptians....they are on a slippery slope, and there is no end to it.
And i ask the question again, wheres your credible EVIDENCE (besides outdated Petrie) that the 12th dynasty was related to the Galla!
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Since very few rulers of Egypt were anything other than black and I show a small subset of them to be family-named, physically, architecturally, and religiously of a type today called Galla,
where do you you find me writing that black rulers of Egypt HAD to be Sudanese?
^ Careful. I didn't say that you did. Nor am I commenting on the relationship between 12th dynasty Egyptians and Galla. My reply isn't a criticism of anything you wrote. It's about the flawed concept of Nubian dynasty, which I don't think you are defending, and which is, after all...the title of the thread.
Flawed concept of the nubian dynasty? hmm..it kinda the same thing im saying? Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:It's about the flawed concept of Nubian dynasty, which I don't think you are defending, and which is, after all...the title of the thread.
Indeed, I think I understand what you're saying. The separation of Ancient Egyptians and Nubians is more of a Eurocentric ruse than actual truth. We can see the Badarians match up with Mesolithic Nubians, and many Egyptian profiles could easily be considered "Nubian". As we can see from the X-Ray Atlas of The Royal Mummies.
James Harris and Edward Wente:
In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity , while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.
while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types
^^^Since many Crania are falsely considered "Mediterranean" I am pretty skeptical about the notion of them mixing with "Mediterranean". Could basically just be another group of Indigenous Africans.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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