By Corey Binns Special to LiveScience 02 February 2007
Male nudes are the norm in Greek art, even though historians have stated that ancient Greeks kept their clothes on for the most part. New research suggests that art might have been imitating life more closely than previously thought.
Nudity was a costume used by artists to depict various roles of men, ranging from heroicism and status to defeat.
"In ancient Greek art, there are many different kinds of nudity that can mean many different things," said Jeffrey Hurwit, an historian of ancient art at the University of Oregon. "Sometimes they are contradictory."
Hurwit's newly published research shows that the Greeks did walk around in the buff in some situations. Men strode about free of their togas in the bedroom and at parties called symposia, where they would eat, drink and carouse. Nudity was also common on the athletic fields and at the Olympic games. (Because there are so many images of Greek athletes, some lay people have assumed the Greeks were in their birthday suits all the time.)
Battling nudity
However, nudity was often risky for the Greeks.
"Greek males, it is generally agreed, did not walk around town naked, they did not ride their horses naked, and they certainly did not go into battle naked," Hurwit said. "In most public contexts, clothing was not optional, and in combat nakedness was suicidal."
Warriors and heroes are often, but not always, represented in the nude. Artists demonstrated the physical prowess men used to defeat their enemies. But, as Hurwit said, if you can go into battle naked, you've got to be pretty good.
However, heroes weren't the only men disrobed by ancient artists.
Here's looking at you
Hurwit's research, published in the January issue of the American Journal of Archaeology, also found examples of defeated, dying and dead naked men. In these cases, nudity was chosen to represent the subjects' vulnerabilities.
Meanwhile, common laborers were also drawn undressed, illustrating their sweat and muscles to show how hard they worked. Gods and people of higher social class were sometimes—but not always—depicted in the buff to demonstrate their place in society.
Hurwit's research of these nuances of Greek art also offers a glimpse into the cultural source of our civilization today.
"We can try to understand ourselves and our conception of what it means to be a hero and to exceed normal expectations," Hurwit told LiveScience. "The more we know about other cultures, the deeper we will be able to understand our own culture and ourselves."
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by RU2religious: I've always thought because it was a gay society.
Peace!~
I agree, it was the best solution for them
Funny that nudity is considered beautifull when it comes to ancient greeks, but when southern hemisphere tribes are captured nude they are automaticlly called "savages" by western scholars regardless of their environmental climate LOL.
I guess you can get away roaming around nude without being called savage if only you can show proof of having a sophisticated and organized society as the greeks had.
I'm quite sure central and northern europeans would have also being running around nude if it wasn't because of their cold region (which seems logical and natural)that is untill the time they got influenced by the people of mediterranean who brought the basics up north.
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posted
The present day Nuba people wrestle in the nude.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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^Thanks for setting the records straight. I was just about to ask Ausar about photographic sourcing.
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I stand corrected,Myra, but I have also seen other photos where Nuba are wrestling without any loin cloth. This photo appears to be a more recent picture because the attire worn by the Nuba in the background show some western influence.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The Greeks were nude because they didn't have any clothes. At the beginning, clothes were available only if one was wealthy enough to avoid the endless demands of farming and hunting. It was a tedious, immeasurably slow process and one induldged in by queens and other female royalty who only occasionally (at the beginning) had the assistance of others. The Greeks came from the Russian Steppes and after arriving in the Grecian islands and destroying nearly every thing they could lay their hands on did enslave the remaining indigenous people and thereafter require that they make them clothes, babies, etc.
The Iliad and the Odyessy has ample evidence of the indigenous people being enslaved and forced to use their crafts and skills to please the insatiable needs of the nomads who forced themselves on their civilization. Here is something to think about:
If you click on the link, at the bottom of the page are about five other links showing the common elements in what appears to be a common kultural toolkit that began in some specific area and became dispersed worldwide. This would include (in some "packages" - for instance, consider weaving in Mexico in B7c) textile making.
Take care,
Marc W.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
THE ATTAINMENT OF WHITE WEALTH THROUGH PLUNDER
This is not news. Whites came in three waves into Greece starting near 2100 BC. The first wave was the Achaean (though the indigenous Africans were the initial Achaean), the Ionians (though here, too, the initial Ionians were African), and the Dorian. So destructive were they, it took Greece nearly 1000 years to recover. This you can find in any book. It's not news. They had nothing when they came and the Greek language attributed to them you probably know was also indigenous along with the Semetic aspect - also African [[ though this is a side point and not part of the thread)
I mentioned earlier that the Greeks went about naked as they had nothing when they came to the Grecian Islands but took everything (and started wearing clothes).
You can understand this dynamic in Homer's Iliad in the words of Telemakhos (the son of Odysseus), Penelope (his wife), Athena daughter of Zeus in the form of Mentor, a servant, each and every one of them identifies the intruders as a new, unwelcome, disruptive, unwanted, even evil presence that stole everything. There is nothing glorious about the Western Greeks. The following quotes are from the Iliad.
PENELOPE
[Book IV. Lines 638 - 721] Here, they incite to kill Odysseus’ son so that they might marry his mother, marry into wealth. Kill the son of the man who befriended their fathers when they, as nomads, first came upon the island of Odysseus – Ithaca.
Penelope, Odysseus’ wife, speaks to the intruders:
Book IV. Line 733
“I wish this were the last time they came feasting, courting me or consorting here! The last! Each day you crowd this house like wolves to eat away my brave son’s patrimony. WHEN YOU WERE BOYS, did your own fathers tell you nothing of what Odysseus was for them? In word and act, impeccable, disinterested toward all the realm – though it is king’s justice to hold one man abhorred and love another; no man alive could say Odysseus wronged him. But your own hearts – how different! – and your deeds! How soon are benefactions all forgotten.”
Now Mendon, the alert and cool man, answered:
“I wish that were the worst of it, my Lady, but they intend something more terrible – May Zeus forfend and spare us! They plan to drive the keen bronze through Telemachos when he comes home.
TELEMAKHOS, Book II. Lines 50 – 61:
My distinguished father is lost, who ruled among you once, mild as a father, and now this greater evil still: my home and all I have are being ruined. Mother wants no suitors, but like a pack they came – sons of the best men here among them – … These men spend their time around our house killing our beeves and sheep and fatted goats, carousing, soaking up our good dark win, no caring what they do. They squander everything.
ATHENA AS MENTOR
Athena speaks as Mentor to the intruders speaking first with irony, then chastisement, Book II. 240 – 300:
“Here me, Ithakans! Hear what I have to say. Let no man holding scepter as king be thoughtful, mild, kindly, or virtuous; let him be cruel, and practice evil ways; it is clear that no one remembers how like a gentle father Odysseus ruled you. I find it less revolting that the suitors carry their malice into violent acts; at least they stake their lives when they go pillaging the house of Odysseus – What sickens me is to see the whole community sitting still, and never a voice or hand raised against them – a mere handful compared with you … (line 320) this was the divine speech Telemachos heard from Athena, Zeus’daughter.
SERVANT: Book XX. Line 130
On hearing a great bang of thunder the Servant of Odysseus speaks to Zeus:
“Is it your nod to someone. Hear me, then, make what I say come true: let this day be the last the suitors feed so dainty in Odysseus’ hall! They’ve made me work my heart out till I drop, grinding barley. May they feast no more!”
Not in this thread but later I will introduce the brutal plunder aristocratic black men suffered killed so that their aristocratic wives could become the property of the invading hordes and catapult them to power.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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This is not news. Whites came in three waves into Greece starting near 2100 BC. The first wave was the Achaean (though the indigenous Africans were the initial Achaean), the Ionians (though here, too, the initial Ionians were African), and the Dorian...
Of course. And according to you, the white Vikings invaded Scandinavia though the indigenous Africans there were the initial Africans. LOL
How can Africans be indigenous to areas outside of Africa? According to you Africans are indigenous everywhere in the globe. LOLPosts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This is not news. Whites came in three waves into Greece starting near 2100 BC. The first wave was the Achaean (though the indigenous Africans were the initial Achaean), the Ionians (though here, too, the initial Ionians were African), and the Dorian...
Of course. And according to you, the white Vikings invaded Scandinavia though the indigenous Africans there were the initial Africans. LOL
How can Africans be indigenous to areas outside of Africa? According to you Africans are indigenous everywhere in the globe. LOL
This probably results from the fact that the original expansion of modern man came from Africa and replaced the Neanderhal and other archaic hominid populations yhay formerly existed around the world.
Great post Marc
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: The Greeks were nude because they didn't have any clothes. At the beginning, clothes were available only if one was wealthy enough to avoid the endless demands of farming and hunting. It was a tedious, immeasurably slow process and one induldged in by queens and other female royalty who only occasionally (at the beginning) had the assistance of others. The Greeks came from the Russian Steppes and after arriving in the Grecian islands and destroying nearly every thing they could lay their hands on did enslave the remaining indigenous people and thereafter require that they make them clothes, babies, etc.
The Iliad and the Odyessy has ample evidence of the indigenous people being enslaved and forced to use their crafts and skills to please the insatiable needs of the nomads who forced themselves on their civilization. Here is something to think about:
If you click on the link, at the bottom of the page are about five other links showing the common elements in what appears to be a common kultural toolkit that began in some specific area and became dispersed worldwide. This would include (in some "packages" - for instance, consider weaving in Mexico in B7c) textile making.
posted
Somewhere on the forum someone made the point when does African end and the Other "races" begin. I am not sure when we as men started making art, in a consistent manner, but we may find evidence of "African" presence all over the world. Maybe the old African evolved into Europeans/Asians and the new Africans are the old world Africans . Or we are all Africans adapted to live in our particular environment/climate.
Question: When does African end and European begin?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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^ All modern humans are essentially African since that is where their species originated. But the only people that can be thought of as "indigenous" Africans are those that never left the continent. Hence whites are indigenous Europeans, Chinese and even black Dravidian Indians are indigenous Asians-- all are indigenous Eurasians as opposed to Ethiopians and Nigerians who are indigenous Africans!
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This probably results from the fact that the original expansion of modern man came from Africa and replaced the Neanderhal and other archaic hominid populations yhay formerly existed around the world.
We know all that. What you fail to accept is that these modern men from Africa that colonized Europe during the Palaeolithic are non other than the ancestors of white Europeans! End of story.
Getting back to the topic...
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: Compliments of Kumba. The Greeks were nude because they didn't have any clothes to wear. See the last scene:
This is ridiculous! Of course the Greeks wore clothing. Nudity, especially male nudity was used for asthetic appeal especially in art. Men still wore clothes in public, but that their clothing was usually more 'scanty' compared to women is also evident. Women were expected to appear modest and cover themselves. Wives and especially those women of high status wore veils. Only prostitutes were expected not to dress as modest.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This is ridiculous! Of course the Greeks wore clothing. Nudity, especially male nudity was used for asthetic appeal especially in art. Men still wore clothes in public, but that their clothing was usually more 'scanty' compared to women is also evident. Women were expected to appear modest and cover themselves. Wives and especially those women of high status wore veils.
Now I know where the Muslims got their ideas...
Posts: 7071 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: "Greek males, it is generally agreed, did not walk around town naked, they did not ride their horses naked, and they certainly did not go into battle naked," Hurwit said. "In most public contexts, clothing was not optional, and in combat nakedness was suicidal."
Warriors and heroes are often, but not always, represented in the nude. Artists demonstrated the physical prowess men used to defeat their enemies. But, as Hurwit said, if you can go into battle naked, you've got to be pretty good.
Why would the Greeks have to be wearing armor to fight in battle? Many cultures, especially those in warm climates (for example, the Egyptians) went to war without much body armor. Perhaps the Greeks really did fight in the nude.
Posts: 7071 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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We know all that. What you fail to accept is that these modern men from Africa that colonized Europe during the Palaeolithic are non other than the ancestors of white Europeans! End of story.
Please present the archaeological, and genetic data that Europeans are descendants of the original inhabitants of Europe--instead of recent migrates to Europe from other parts of the world.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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We know all that. What you fail to accept is that these modern men from Africa that colonized Europe during the Palaeolithic are non other than the ancestors of white Europeans! End of story.
Please present the archaeological, and genetic data that Europeans are descendants of the original inhabitants of Europe--instead of recent migrates to Europe from other parts of the world.
.
Isn't it you who has the burden of proof?
Posts: 7071 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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We know all that. What you fail to accept is that these modern men from Africa that colonized Europe during the Palaeolithic are non other than the ancestors of white Europeans! End of story.
Please present the archaeological, and genetic data that Europeans are descendants of the original inhabitants of Europe--instead of recent migrates to Europe from other parts of the world.
.
Isn't it you who has the burden of proof?
No. Why should the burden fall on me. He has made a proposition, now it is time to support his statement. This topic has been throughly explored in this forum and he knowns the state of the knolwedge rejecting this proposition. If he has references supporting his claim they should be explained and discussed NOW.
quote:Originally posted by Captain Jack Sparrow: Now I know where the Muslims got their ideas...
LOL Islam did not get the idea of veiling women from Greeks. It was custom Arabs have practiced long before Muhammad since ancient times. The custom of veiling women was used by ancient Indo-European speaking peoples like the Hittites, Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Indians, as well as ancient Semitic speaking peoples of Western Asia like the Akkadians, Assyrians, Aramaeans, Hebrews, Amorites, to the later Arabs etc. It was a patriarchal (male-dominated) idea of course, but it was usually restricted to women of high class-- that women were too special to be looked upon by common eyes. If women of lower class were caught wearing the veil they would be punished. Eventually, when laws became less strict more and more lower class women adopted the veil to attain the appearance of high status. Again, the overall purpose of the veil was modesty. The religion of Islam only furthered the practice, but even before Islam both Judaism as well as Christianity were proponents of the veil. Also, in certain other cultures Africa and in Asia the veil is continued to be used as a symbol of prestige, usually among royal women.
quote:Why would the Greeks have to be wearing armor to fight in battle? Many cultures, especially those in warm climates (for example, the Egyptians) went to war without much body armor. Perhaps the Greeks really did fight in the nude.
The Egyptians as well as the Greeks used shields in battle, but of course armor is quite helpful also. The earliest armor used was leather. Again, fighting in the nude was probably suicide depending on the weapons used. Maybe they would have in the early Bronze Age; I don't know. But as Myra said, Nudity itself was symbolic of the power of the body. Of course in Classical times (unlike earlier times), Greek women's bodies became sexual objects only and were definitely not warriors so they were usually covered.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Djehuti Please present the archaeological, and genetic data that Europeans are descendants of the original inhabitants of Europe--instead of recent migrates to Europe from other parts of the world.
The data you ask for has been shown to you countless times now, most recently here! If your mind has a hard time accepting such info, that is not my or anyone else's problem! Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Djehuti Please present the archaeological, and genetic data that Europeans are descendants of the original inhabitants of Europe--instead of recent migrates to Europe from other parts of the world.
The data you ask for has been shown to you countless times now, most recently here! If your mind has a hard time accepting such info, that is not my or anyone else's problem!
Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
quote:
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks.
There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
LMAO
How am I the troll, when I simply answered your silly question which has been repeated multiple times already! And yes, the thread I cited has everything to do with your question! For someone who writes so-called scholarly reports I don't know how you could not see that!
Now, you just bring up studies (that have been discussed here before and explained to YOU) only to distort them! That is a tactic practiced by trolls!!
quote:Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
ROTFLH I suggest you read those studies again! For someone with a doctorate, you are acting pretty illiterate!!
Those studies show that modern Europeans are the direct descendants of the first humans to inhabit Europe during the Paleolithic! The mitochondrial lineage N1 is associated with Neolithic farmers who were the ones who were newcomers to Europe and introduced Neolithic culture a.k.a. farming!!
quote:This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Wrong on both counts! N1 is NOT present among Dravidian Indians, and I don't think it present among Senegambians but I do know it is a lineage common among East Africans particularly Ethiopians and to some extent Yemen. "Old Europeans" refers to the Paleolithic inhabitants NOT the Neolithic newcomers!
quote:Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Correct. Neolithic times, NOT Paleolithic times!
quote:Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: [b] "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Yes, and craniofacial morphology can change in in forty to fifty thousand years! White Europeans are the direct descendants of so-called Cro-Magnons and Chinese the descendants of Zhoukoudians!!
quote:Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
Yes. All of Eurasia was once inhabited by Homo-Erectus, but they were not the ancestors of modern Eurasians! Cro-magnon ARE however the ancestors of white Europeans!
quote:CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
Again, Neolithic immigrants were indeed people of recent African ancestry. Whites by and large descend from the older Paleolithic peoples!
quote:The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks. Read the studies again, or better yet read my answers.
[quote]There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
^ Irrelevant. Racial typological terms like "negroid" prove nothing alone. There are peoples in Eurasia with "negroid" features that are no more related to Africans than Siberians. On the other hand, the Cro-magnon remains that do have such features are the direct lineal ancestors of modern whites.
Europeans were affectively 'white' by Neolithic times when people of Africand descent began migrating into Europe and introducing Neolithic culture-- hence Neolithic remains and genetic lineages differ from the aboriginal (white) populations!
I don't know why I even bother. Only in America can a racial nutcase idiot even attain a doctorate- Dr. Winters. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
LMAO
How am I the troll, when I simply answered your silly question which has been repeated multiple times already! And yes, the thread I cited has everything to do with your question! For someone who writes so-called scholarly reports I don't know how you could not see that!
Now, you just bring up studies (that have been discussed here before and explained to YOU) only to distort them! That is a tactic practiced by trolls!!
quote:Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
ROTFLH I suggest you read those studies again! For someone with a doctorate, you are acting pretty illiterate!!
Those studies show that modern Europeans are the direct descendants of the first humans to inhabit Europe during the Paleolithic! The mitochondrial lineage N1 is associated with Neolithic farmers who were the ones who were newcomers to Europe and introduced Neolithic culture a.k.a. farming!!
quote:This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Wrong on both counts! N1 is NOT present among Dravidian Indians, and I don't think it present among Senegambians but I do know it is a lineage common among East Africans particularly Ethiopians and to some extent Yemen. "Old Europeans" refers to the Paleolithic inhabitants NOT the Neolithic newcomers!
quote:Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Correct. Neolithic times, NOT Paleolithic times!
quote:Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: [b] "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Yes, and craniofacial morphology can change in in forty to fifty thousand years! White Europeans are the direct descendants of so-called Cro-Magnons and Chinese the descendants of Zhoukoudians!!
quote:Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
Yes. All of Eurasia was once inhabited by Homo-Erectus, but they were not the ancestors of modern Eurasians! Cro-magnon ARE however the ancestors of white Europeans!
quote:CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
Again, Neolithic immigrants were indeed people of recent African ancestry. Whites by and large descend from the older Paleolithic peoples!
quote:The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks. Read the studies again, or better yet read my answers.
[quote]There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
^ Irrelevant. Racial typological terms like "negroid" prove nothing alone. There are peoples in Eurasia with "negroid" features that are no more related to Africans than Siberians. On the other hand, the Cro-magnon remains that do have such features are the direct lineal ancestors of modern whites.
Europeans were affectively 'white' by Neolithic times when people of Africand descent began migrating into Europe and introducing Neolithic culture-- hence Neolithic remains and genetic lineages differ from the aboriginal (white) populations!
I don't know why I even bother. Only in America can a racist nutcase idiot even attain a doctorate- Dr. Winters. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
LMAO
How am I the troll, when I simply answered your silly question which has been repeated multiple times already! And yes, the thread I cited has everything to do with your question! For someone who writes so-called scholarly reports I don't know how you could not see that!
Now, you just bring up studies (that have been discussed here before and explained to YOU) only to distort them! That is a tactic practiced by trolls!!
quote:Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
ROTFLH I suggest you read those studies again! For someone with a doctorate, you are acting pretty illiterate!!
Those studies show that modern Europeans are the direct descendants of the first humans to inhabit Europe during the Paleolithic! The mitochondrial lineage N1 is associated with Neolithic farmers who were the ones who were newcomers to Europe and introduced Neolithic culture a.k.a. farming!!
quote:This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Wrong on both counts! N1 is NOT present among Dravidian Indians, and I don't think it present among Senegambians but I do know it is a lineage common among East Africans particularly Ethiopians and to some extent Yemen. "Old Europeans" refers to the Paleolithic inhabitants NOT the Neolithic newcomers!
quote:Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Correct. Neolithic times, NOT Paleolithic times!
quote:Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: [b] "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Yes, and craniofacial morphology can change in in forty to fifty thousand years! White Europeans are the direct descendants of so-called Cro-Magnons and Chinese the descendants of Zhoukoudians!!
quote:Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
Yes. All of Eurasia was once inhabited by Homo-Erectus, but they were not the ancestors of modern Eurasians! Cro-magnon ARE however the ancestors of white Europeans!
quote:CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
Again, Neolithic immigrants were indeed people of recent African ancestry. Whites by and large descend from the older Paleolithic peoples!
quote:The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks. Read the studies again, or better yet read my answers.
[quote]There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
^ Irrelevant. Racial typological terms like "negroid" prove nothing alone. There are peoples in Eurasia with "negroid" features that are no more related to Africans than Siberians. On the other hand, the Cro-magnon remains that do have such features are the direct lineal ancestors of modern whites.
Europeans were affectively 'white' by Neolithic times when people of Africand descent began migrating into Europe and introducing Neolithic culture-- hence Neolithic remains and genetic lineages differ from the aboriginal (white) populations!
I don't know why I even bother. Only in America can a racial nutcase idiot even attain a doctorate- Dr. Winters. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
LMAO
How am I the troll, when I simply answered your silly question which has been repeated multiple times already! And yes, the thread I cited has everything to do with your question! For someone who writes so-called scholarly reports I don't know how you could not see that!
Now, you just bring up studies (that have been discussed here before and explained to YOU) only to distort them! That is a tactic practiced by trolls!!
quote:Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
ROTFLH I suggest you read those studies again! For someone with a doctorate, you are acting pretty illiterate!!
Those studies show that modern Europeans are the direct descendants of the first humans to inhabit Europe during the Paleolithic! The mitochondrial lineage N1 is associated with Neolithic farmers who were the ones who were newcomers to Europe and introduced Neolithic culture a.k.a. farming!!
quote:This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Wrong on both counts! N1 is NOT present among Dravidian Indians, and I don't think it present among Senegambians but I do know it is a lineage common among East Africans particularly Ethiopians and to some extent Yemen. "Old Europeans" refers to the Paleolithic inhabitants NOT the Neolithic newcomers!
quote:Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Correct. Neolithic times, NOT Paleolithic times!
quote:Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: [b] "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Yes, and craniofacial morphology can change in in forty to fifty thousand years! White Europeans are the direct descendants of so-called Cro-Magnons and Chinese the descendants of Zhoukoudians!!
quote:Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
Yes. All of Eurasia was once inhabited by Homo-Erectus, but they were not the ancestors of modern Eurasians! Cro-magnon ARE however the ancestors of white Europeans!
quote:CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
Again, Neolithic immigrants were indeed people of recent African ancestry. Whites by and large descend from the older Paleolithic peoples!
quote:The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks. Read the studies again, or better yet read my answers.
[quote]There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
^ Irrelevant. Racial typological terms like "negroid" prove nothing alone. There are peoples in Eurasia with "negroid" features that are no more related to Africans than Siberians. On the other hand, the Cro-magnon remains that do have such features are the direct lineal ancestors of modern whites.
Europeans were affectively 'white' by Neolithic times when people of Africand descent began migrating into Europe and introducing Neolithic culture-- hence Neolithic remains and genetic lineages differ from the aboriginal (white) populations!
I don't know why I even bother. Only in America can a racial nutcase idiot even attain a doctorate- Dr. Winters.
You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Your response to my post proves your Troll existence. There are no studies that prove whites existed in Europe in Paleolithic or Neolithic times. Any claim of this nature is pure conjecture. You know this, but due to your following on this forum you believe you can trick people into accepting your lies on faith that you are correct.
This may be your false belief. But the truth can never go away. Your lies are like water in the arid Sahara, they disappear without a trace.
Little man go look in the mirror and see the weak boy you are. The only nut in this discussion is you.
Marc's work will go down in history as a significant contribution to Africana studies; while you will only get old and bitter, because you are afraid to accept the truth: accomplishment only comes from hard work, not attacking the work of others.
posted
You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Your response to my post proves your Troll existence. There are no studies that prove whites existed in Europe in Paleolithic or Neolithic times. Any claim of this nature is pure conjecture. You know this, but due to your following on this forum you believe you can trick people into accepting your lies on faith that you are correct.
This may be your false belief. But the truth can never go away. Your lies are like water in the arid Sahara, they disappear without a trace.
Little man go look in the mirror and see the weak boy you are. The only nut in this discussion is you.
Marc's work will go down in history as a significant contribution to Africana studies; while you will only get old and bitter, because you are afraid to accept the truth: accomplishment only comes from hard work, not attacking the work of others.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Your response to my post proves your Troll existence. There are no studies that prove whites existed in Europe in Paleolithic or Neolithic times. Any claim of this nature is pure conjecture. You know this, but due to your following on this forum you believe you can trick people into accepting your lies on faith that you are correct.
This may be your false belief. But the truth can never go away. Your lies are like water in the arid Sahara, they disappear without a trace.
Little man go look in the mirror and see the weak boy you are. The only nut in this discussion is you.
Marc's work will go down in history as a significant contribution to Africana studies; while you will only get old and bitter, because you are afraid to accept the truth: accomplishment only comes from hard work, not attacking the work of others.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Troll. The thread you mention has nothing to do with contemporary Europeans representing the ancient Africans/Blacks who were living in Europe when the whites entered the region.
LMAO
How am I the troll, when I simply answered your silly question which has been repeated multiple times already! And yes, the thread I cited has everything to do with your question! For someone who writes so-called scholarly reports I don't know how you could not see that!
Now, you just bring up studies (that have been discussed here before and explained to YOU) only to distort them! That is a tactic practiced by trolls!!
quote:Recent genetic research indicates that the contemporary Europeans are not related to the ancient Europeans.
Science 11 November 2005: Vol. 310. no. 5750, pp. 1016 - 1018 DOI: 10.1126/science.1118725 Prev | Table of Contents | Next
REPORTS Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites Wolfgang Haak,1* Peter Forster,2 Barbara Bramanti,1 Shuichi Matsumura,2 Guido Brandt,1 Marc T䮺er,1 Richard Villems,3 Colin Renfrew,2 Detlef Gronenborn,4 Kurt Werner Alt,1 Joachim Burger1
The ancestry of modern Europeans is a subject of debate among geneticists, archaeologists, and anthropologists. A crucial question is the extent to which Europeans are descended from the first European farmers in the Neolithic Age 7500 years ago or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago. Here we present an analysis of ancient DNA from early European farmers.
We successfully extracted and sequenced intact stretches of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 24 out of 57 Neolithic skeletons from various locations in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. We found that 25% of the Neolithic farmers had one characteristic mtDNA type and that this type formerly was widespread among Neolithic farmers in Central Europe.
Europeans today have a 150-times lower frequency (0.2%) of this mtDNA type, revealing that these first Neolithic farmers did not have a strong genetic influence on modern European female lineages.
Our finding lends weight to a proposed Paleolithic ancestry for modern Europeans.
This DNA found in the ancient Europeans was N1(a). It seems to me that we may be asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to explain why the Old Europeans were not Indo-European speakers, or contemporary Europeans, we should be asking the question who these Old Europeans were. It appears to me that they may have been Africans.
ROTFLH I suggest you read those studies again! For someone with a doctorate, you are acting pretty illiterate!!
Those studies show that modern Europeans are the direct descendants of the first humans to inhabit Europe during the Paleolithic! The mitochondrial lineage N1 is associated with Neolithic farmers who were the ones who were newcomers to Europe and introduced Neolithic culture a.k.a. farming!!
quote:This is based on the reality that the haplogroup N1(a) is common to Senegambians, modern Ethiopians and the Dravidian speaking people of India (Richards et al,2005; Toomas et al, 2004). The Old Europeans may be related to African cattle raising farming groups, originally from Africa and the Middle East who may have planted the seeds of agriculture in ancient Europe, especially descendants of the Natufians.
Wrong on both counts! N1 is NOT present among Dravidian Indians, and I don't think it present among Senegambians but I do know it is a lineage common among East Africans particularly Ethiopians and to some extent Yemen. "Old Europeans" refers to the Paleolithic inhabitants NOT the Neolithic newcomers!
quote:Many Researchers see Africans spreading into Europe in ancient times. Brace et al (2006) recognized Sub-Saharan Africans as associates of the Nufian farmers that introduced farming to Europe.
Correct. Neolithic times, NOT Paleolithic times!
quote:Chris Stringer and Robin McKie wrote: [b] "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some looked more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by OBJECTIVE anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."
Yes, and craniofacial morphology can change in in forty to fifty thousand years! White Europeans are the direct descendants of so-called Cro-Magnons and Chinese the descendants of Zhoukoudians!!
quote:Africa in a sense kept pumping out migrations and dispersals of people and this included people like the Neanderthals who, equally, it doesn't seem were our ancestors.
Yes. All of Eurasia was once inhabited by Homo-Erectus, but they were not the ancestors of modern Eurasians! Cro-magnon ARE however the ancestors of white Europeans!
quote:CL Brace (2006), found that "when 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.
Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted,neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.?"
Again, Neolithic immigrants were indeed people of recent African ancestry. Whites by and large descend from the older Paleolithic peoples!
quote:The main problem with Brace et al's attempt to make the Late Pleistocene inhabitants of Europe = contemporary Europeans is that these people were Negroes or Blacks. Read the studies again, or better yet read my answers.
[quote]There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Keita notes that: quote:
"Epipaleolithic "mesolithic" Nile Valley remains have these characteristics and diverge notably from their Maghreban and European counterparts in key cranio-facial characteristics (see comments in Keita 1990) although late Natufian hunters and early Anatolian farmers (Angel 1972) shared some of these traits, suggesting late Paleolithic migration out of Africa, as supported by archeology **(Bar Yosef 1987)**. - Keita, 1993.
Holliday confirmed his hypothesis that the replacement of the Neanderthal people were Sub-Saharan Africans. The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia. In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (Wendorf, 1968). These Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret Natufians were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Some researchers believe that Natufian, or some related population took the E3b alpha cluster to Europe.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine. The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
The Vinca Tordos culture is very interesting because of the evidence of writing found in this culture. The famous Tartaria tablets were produced by the Vinca Tordos culture. The Vinca Tordos culture is associated with western Bulgaria, southwest Romania and Yugoslavia.
The Vinca people in addition to possessing writing were also engaged in copper metallurgy. They also made clay and stone figurines and fine pottery. As among the contemporary Nubians and Tripolyeans culture the Vinca people made fine human and animal figurines .
In conclusion the archaeological evidence suggest that The Old Europeans may have been Blacks who carried the N1 lineage to Europe that were later replaced by Indo-European speaking populations. There were probably no ancient white foragers of farmers in ancient Europe.
References:
Balter M. 2005. Ancient DNA yields clues to the puzzle of European origins. Science 310:964-965. Full text (subscription)
Clark, J.D. (1977).The origins of domestication in Ethiopia", Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi.
Haak W et al. 2005. Ancient DNA from the first European farmers in 7500-year-old Neolithic sites. Science 310:1016-1018. Full text (subscription)
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
Cavalli-Sforza LL (1995) Demographic history of India and mtDNA-sequence diversity. Am J Hum Genet 56:979?992 [PubMed].
Christopher Ehret,C. (1979).On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia", Jour. of African History 20, p.161.
Richards M. 2003. The Neolithic invasion of Europe. Annu Rev Anthropol 32:135-162. Full text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, et al (2000) Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251?1276 [PubMed] [Free Full Text].
Richards M, Rengo C, Cruciani F, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Scozzari R, Macaulay V, Torroni A (2003) Extensive female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab populations. Am J Hum Genet 72:1058?1064 [ Free Full text in PMC].
Toomas Kivisild,1 Maere Reidla,1 Ene Metspalu,1 Alexandra Rosa,1 Antonio Brehm,2 Erwan Pennarun,1 J?> Parik,1 Tarekegn Geberhiwot,3 Esien Usanga,4 and Richard Villems.(2004)1 Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 November; 75(5): 752?770.
Wendorf,F. (1968).The History of Nubia,( Dallas,1968) pp.941-46).
^ Irrelevant. Racial typological terms like "negroid" prove nothing alone. There are peoples in Eurasia with "negroid" features that are no more related to Africans than Siberians. On the other hand, the Cro-magnon remains that do have such features are the direct lineal ancestors of modern whites.
Europeans were affectively 'white' by Neolithic times when people of Africand descent began migrating into Europe and introducing Neolithic culture-- hence Neolithic remains and genetic lineages differ from the aboriginal (white) populations!
I don't know why I even bother. Only in America can a racial nutcase idiot even attain a doctorate- Dr. Winters.
You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Your response to my post proves your Troll existence. There are no studies that prove whites existed in Europe in Paleolithic or Neolithic times. Any claim of this nature is pure conjecture. You know this, but due to your following on this forum you believe you can trick people into accepting your lies on faith that you are correct.
This may be your false belief. But the truth can never go away. Your lies are like water in the arid Sahara, they disappear without a trace.
Little man go look in the mirror and see the weak boy you are. The only nut in this discussion is you.
Marc's work will go down in history as a significant contribution to Africana studies; while you will only get old and bitter, because you are afraid to accept the truth: accomplishment only comes from hard work, not attacking the work of others.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
LMFO Of course you can lie to yourself about me being jealous. Why not? Your whole work and so-called "scholarship" is a lie. There was nothing ignorant about my comments. It was plain truth. I have not anti-African nature, what I am anti or against is bad scholarship in general and especially such based on racist nonsense!
quote:You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
LOL That's why I'm in college fool, so I can earn a degree! And unfortunately for you, one does not need a degree to see through all the b.s. that you or your follower Marc posts in this forum! I do more than post negative comments; I actually correct the nonsense you and your followers spew! Rasol and the other intelligent folks in this forum do the same!
quote:Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Incorrect. I have never denied African influence on other cultures, hence I never denied the role Africans had in introducing Neolithic culture to West Asia and Europe. What I do deny or rather denounce is the ridiculous nonsense of Africans being indigenous to Europe and whites being newcomers to Europe during the Middle Ages! What I denounce are other lies like African Chinese, Manding Japanese, and Olmecs!! No evidence whatsoever except your distortions of archaeology, genetics, and of course your bad linguistics!
quote:Your response to my post proves your Troll existence. There are no studies that prove whites existed in Europe in Paleolithic or Neolithic times. Any claim of this nature is pure conjecture. You know this, but due to your following on this forum you believe you can trick people into accepting your lies on faith that you are correct.
ROTFL And anyone with common sense and is literate can just read through not just everything I said, but the very studies I and YOU cited and know that those sources contradict you which is why you distort them! Whites are indigenous to Europe and became white in the first place because of adaptation to European climate!
quote:This may be your false belief. But the truth can never go away. Your lies are like water in the arid Sahara, they disappear without a trace.
You are describing yourself Dr. Winters.
quote:Little man go look in the mirror and see the weak boy you are. The only nut in this discussion is you.
LOL Really? I am weak nor foolish enough to spread lies of Mandingo spreading civilization from India to Japan to Mexico around the globe!
quote:Marc's work will go down in history as a significant contribution to Africana studies; while you will only get old and bitter, because you are afraid to accept the truth: accomplishment only comes from hard work, not attacking the work of others.
Marc's work is only going down the proverbial drain of pseudo-scholarly crap! Why? Because his work is not truth. In fact, it is the exact opposite of that-- LIES.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Of course you can lie to yourself about me being jealous. Why not? Your whole work and so-called "scholarship" is a lie. There was nothing ignorant about my comments. It was plain truth. I have not anti-African nature, what I am anti or against is bad scholarship in general and especially such based on racist nonsense!
You are the racist here. The only claim I have made is that the original Europeans and Cro-Magnon man was Negro/ African or Black. This is not racist it is truth, a thruth I supported by references (see above).
You are anti-African/Black,because you hate the use of the term Black and Negro, because you know for a fact that the skeletal remains of the ancient founders of ancient civilization were all Blacks. Marc's use of the term Negro and Black connect these Black people and you can't handle truth of Blacks being the founders of the ancient civilizations.
Clyde
quote: quote:You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
Djehuti
quote: LOL That's why I'm in college fool, so I can earn a degree! And unfortunately for you, one does not need a degree to see through all the b.s. that you or your follower Marc posts in this forum! I do more than post negative comments; I actually correct the nonsense you and your followers spew! Rasol and the other intelligent folks in this forum do the same!
This is the best evidence of your jealousy. It hurts you very much that a Black Man, who questions the status quo can earn a PhD, while you can not even earn a B.A.
This hurts you because very few people have the PhD , black or white. You would probably be even more jealous to learn, that while you can't even earn a BA after attending college for many years, I graduated from University of Illinois-Urbana with my BA (History) and MA (Anthropology and Linguistics), after only four years of study.
You are the fool. You don't have to get a degree to be a scholar. One of our greatest scholars was J.A. Rogers. Due to racism he was not admitted to University, but he went on to write numerous books on the history of Blacks in ancient times supported by thousands of references.
You are a fool because you think that only people with terminal degrees should write history. A degree is just a piece of paper. My work was published in the 1970's-1990's when I didn't have a PhD because they were based on the best sources and methods applicable to the field I was writing to (i.e., anthropology, history and linguistics).
The degree has nothing to do with my PhD, I have been writing on Afrocentric themes since the 1973 when I only had the BA and MA in Anthropology and Linguistics. I was published because I studied hard and my research was supported by the evidence. I was published because I had no fear to spread the thruth. The truth that Blacks founded the first civilizations.
To satiate your hate of Black scholars you claim you support a Black Egypt. But when the evidence is presented by Marc that the ancient founders of other civilizations around the world were also Black, you declare that claiming the racial origin of these folks is racist.(A truth presented by some of our greatest Black scholars like W.E.B. DuBois and J.A. Rogers to name a few.) This is the same propaganda used by other Eurocentric researchers, like your neo-Eurocentric self, to deny the true African/Black origination of the founders of the first river civilizations--you attack use of the term Black; while you celebrate white scholars like Brace, who use the term caucasian to describe people inb India and Europe.
Clyde
quote: quote:Yes, you admit that Africans made significant civilizations in Africa and yet you deny their civilizing influences outside Africa. This contradiction proves you are a hypocrite.
Djehuti
quote: Incorrect. I have never denied African influence on other cultures, hence I never denied the role Africans had in introducing Neolithic culture to West Asia and Europe. What I do deny or rather denounce is the ridiculous nonsense of Africans being indigenous to Europe and whites being newcomers to Europe during the Middle Ages! What I denounce are other lies like African Chinese, Manding Japanese, and Olmecs!! No evidence whatsoever except your distortions of archaeology, genetics, and of course your bad linguistics!
Again we see the classic Eurocentric attack on Black Scholars, i.e., make a statement about the inaccurate nature of Afrocentric scholarship without one citation supporting your claim. Your failure to cite any sources falsifying my claim is further evidence of your neo-Eurocentric anti-Black sentiments. The fact that most of my work is published in refereed journals--including my article on the genetic relationship of the Mande languages and Japanese, and the genetic relationship of Dravidians and Africans, show your ignorance of how science works.
You can get all the degrees you wish. But it is not the degree that makes the researcher. It is his/her skill and expertise building knowledge based on hypotheses testing. Your post on this forum regarding the work of Marc betry your weaknesses in this area. I hope you will find a mentor and kiss his ass, then you might ride his coattail and make a name for yourself.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:The only claim I have made is that the original Europeans and Cro-Magnon man was Negro/ African or Black.
This claim is internally contradictory, and convoluted as is all race theory.
By definition, the original Europeans are the indigenous Europeans.
Based upon genetics, they migrated to Europe from Central Asia 30 thousand years ago, and most modern Europeans are descendant from them.
They would have been "African" only in the sense that the species homo-sapiens - the entire human 'race', is African. In the ethnic sense, they are indigenous Europeans, descendant from paleolithic Eurasians.
In terms of skin color, they were certainly not white.
We know this because the many mutations that cause leucoderma - or extreme depigmentation of the skin are of recent mesolithic and later provenence....therefore white people did not exist in the Upper Paleolithic, only their darker ancestors did.
It is this variability of skin color over time, that makes skin color non-static and therefore, non racial.
Cromagnon is the name of caves in France. It is not a racial typology, and the term has no formal status as and phenotype or genotype either.
Therefore it makes no sense to refer to CroMagnon as a 'negro', which, like 'caucazoid', is a pseudo scientific race typology.
It is certainly the case the CroMagnon was more tropically adapted and less cold adapted than modern Europeans..... 30 thousand years ago, all people were.
This does not mean that they are not ancestral to modern Europeans. Based upon genetics, they are.
If as scholar you disagree Dr. Winters, you should write PA Underhill, Oppenheimer, Keita, Trinkhous, Kettles, Cruciani, Tishkoff, Holliday,and other fellow scholars, and correct them.
It makes more sense than attacking Djehuti, who is only [accurately] relating their works.
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quote:The only claim I have made is that the original Europeans and Cro-Magnon man was Negro/ African or Black.
This claim is internally contradictory, and convoluted as is all race theory.
By definition, the original Europeans are the indigenous Europeans.
Based upon genetics, they migrated to Europe from Central Asia 30 thousand years ago, and most modern Europeans are descendant from them.
They would have been "African" only in the sense that the species homo-sapiens - the entire human 'race', is African. In the ethnic sense, they are indigenous Europeans, descendant from paleolithic Eurasians.
In terms of skin color, they were certainly not white.
We know this because the many mutations that cause leucoderma - or extreme depigmentation of the skin are of recent mesolithic and later provenence....therefore white people did not exist in the Upper Paleolithic, only their darker ancestors did.
It is this variability of skin color over time, that makes skin color non-static and therefore, non racial. Cromagnon is the name of caves in France. It is not a racial typology, and the term has no formal status as and phenotype or genotype either.
Therefore it makes no sense to refer to CroMagnon as a 'negro', which, like 'caucazoid', is a pseudo scientific race typology. It is certainly the case the CroMagnon was more tropically adapted and less cold adapted than modern Europeans..... 30 thousand years ago, all people were.
This does not mean that they are not ancestral to modern Europeans. Based upon genetics, they are.
If as scholar you disagree Dr. Winters, you should write PA Underhill, Oppenheimer, Keita, Trinkhous, Kettles, Cruciani, Tishkoff, Holliday,and other fellow scholars, and correct them.
It makes more sense than attacking Djehuti, who is only [accurately] relating their works.
Cro Magnon represents both a phenotype "tropically adapted modern human being " i.e., a Black; and genotype, they belong to the N haplogroup which is not common among white Europeans.
EARLY HISTORY: first humans first technologies first civilizations
The First Humans: Cro-Magnon Man Biologically modern human beings (species Homo sapiens) first appear about 120,000 years ago. Cro-magnon man, with prominent chin, a sharply rising forehead, and a gracile skeleton existed some 40,000-10,000 years ago. Remains were first found in France in 1868 and then throughout other parts of Europe. Cro-Magnon man was anatomically identical to modern humans and differed significantly from Neanderthal man, who disappeared in the fossil record shortly after Cro-Magnon's appearance. They were skilled hunters, toolmakers and artists. Their upper Paleolithic culture produced a markedly more sophisticated tool kit, using a wider variety of raw materials such as bone and antler, and containing new implements for making clothing, engraving, and sculpting. They produced fine artwork, in the form of decorated tools, beads, ivory carvings of humans and animals, shell jewelry, clay figurines, musical instruments, and polychrome cave paintings of exceptional vitality.
Need I say more? I don't think so. This quote shows the falseness of your claims. Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
So Clyde, you think my ancestors wiped out some indigenous black population in Europe back in the Middle Ages (or some other early date)? Wow, that says a lot about your attitudes towards white people.
quote:Cro Magnon represents both a phenotype "tropically adapted modern human being " i.e., a Black; and genotype, they belong to the N haplogroup which is not common among white Europeans.
No it does not.
Here is the reality:
Fossil Hominids: Cro-Magnon Man
The term 'Cro-Magnon' has no formal taxonomic status, since it refers neither to a species or subspecies nor to an archaeological phase or culture. The name is not commonly encountered in modern professional literature in English, since authors prefer to talk more generally of anatomically modern humans. They thus avoid a certain ambiguity in the label 'Cro-Magnon', which is sometimes used to refer to all early moderns in Europe (as opposed to the preceding Neanderthals), and sometimes to refer to a specific human group that can be distinguished from other Upper Paleolithic humans in the region. Nevertheless, the term 'Cro-Magnon' is still very commonly used in popular texts because it makes an obvious distinction with the Neanderthals, and also refers directly to people rather than to the complicated succession of archaeological phases that make up the Upper Paleolithic. This evident practical value has prevented archaeologists and human paleontologists - especially in continental Europe - from dispensing entirely with the idea of Cro-Magnons.
Cro-Magnon is Europe in the Paleolithic - they do not all look alike, they do not all resemble Europeans...but they do not all resemble Africans either. This is why it has no taxonomic status.
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quote:The First Humans: Cro-Magnon Man Cro-magnon man, with prominent chin, a sharply rising forehead,
quote:Clyde Winters: Need I say more? I don't think so.
I do.
What you quoted is not only outdated, [ignorance of Herto Man dated at at least 150 ky], but it contradicts you.
Prominent chin and vertical forehead are precisely the traits that led early anthropologist to claim that Cro-Magnon was 'caucasoid', because those are traits that modern Europeans have.
The position of the article you quoted is precisely that Cro-Magnon are forebearers of modern Europeans. It is not that CroMagnon are "negro".
However in reality many Cromagnon do not have those traits. Many have recessive chin, and sloping forehead and round face and are prognathous.
In other words...you would have done better to quote something that actually does not so badly contradict your contentions.
By quoting the above, you only showed us that you don't understand what anthropologists are saying.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
.
It has been pointed out in this forum, by quoting letters from the journals themselves, that your "papers" are comments and they did not undergo the refereed process. They do not count as "refereed" papers.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You bother because you're jealous of Marc and I. This drives you to post ignorant comments that betry your deep anti-African nature.
You pretend to be a "scholar" but you publish nothing and dare not get an advanced degree. While I publish articles on genetics in refereed journals, you spend your time posting negative comments about Marc's work. If you spent the time you spent player hating you could probably earn a degree.
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It has been pointed out in this forum, by quoting letters from the journals themselves, that your "papers" are comments and they did not undergo the refereed process. They do not count as "refereed" papers.
That dosen't matter they are published in refereed journals. I will be posting other articles in the future as they are published.
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