posted
Thing is today's people who are supra-Saharan, and even many Saharan and Sahel non-Chadic AfroAsiatic speakers, just simply are not relevant for any Pan-African practicalities or realities.
They do not, in large, identify with Saharan, Sahel, and further southward Africans who don't speak "Berber" or Arabic.
Nor are they the least even interested in us as kindred Africans sharing the same continent the last 30-50,000 years.
So what matter that these NAs do in fact paternally hail from E-P2, as we do, and maternally to U6, a variety of L's, and even from epiPaleolithic and protoHolocene indigenous H1.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Prism... Is a start. Libyans were once a foe and at times an ally to the AEians. Righting the ship since this Moslem nonsense invaded the land.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
As I said I am not in tune with the cultural beef between horners , Bantus, Maghrebians, or between Germans and English ......or even Jamaicans and Trinidadians. You get my point?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Prism... Is a start. Libyans were once a foe and at times an ally to the AEians. Righting the ship since this Moslem nonsense invaded the land.
Muslims did not invade Egypt. They were invited in to drive out the Christians.
posted
Have you read Chenweizu's classical?. He put things in perspective. It Opened my eyes. There is a reason why everyone is defaecating on the Bantu. And it has nothing to do with blackness or slavery. There were many ethnic groups enslaved throughout history who are well respected now.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The point is Dr Winters . It is an ancient religion with archaic customs, still existing in the 21st century. But most religion are like that. I am not singling out Islam.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Prism... Is a start. Libyans were once a foe and at times an ally to the AEians. Righting the ship since this Moslem nonsense invaded the land.
Muslims did not invade Egypt. They were invited in to drive out the Christians.
.
The Arab army then marched to Alexandria, which was not prepared to resist despite its well fortified condition. Consequently, the governor of Alexandria agreed to surrender, and a treaty was signed in November 641. The following year, the Byzantines broke the treaty and attempted unsuccessfully to retake the city.
Muslim conquerors habitually gave the people they defeated three alternatives: converting to Islam, retaining their religion with freedom of worship in return for the payment of the poll tax, or war. In surrendering to the Arab armies, the Byzantines agreed to the second option. The Arab conquerors treated the Egyptian Copts well. During the battle for Egypt, the Copts had either remained neutral or had actively supported the Arabs.
After the surrender, the Coptic patriarch was reinstated, exiled bishops were called home, and churches that had been forcibly turned over to the Byzantines were returned to the Copts. Amr allowed Copts who held office to retain their positions and appointed Copts to other offices.
Amr moved the capital south to a new city called Al Fustat (present-day Old Cairo). The mosque he built there bears his name and still stands, although it has been much rebuilt.
For two centuries after the conquest, Egypt was a province ruled by a line of governors appointed by the caliphs in the east. Egypt provided abundant grain and tax revenue. In time most of the people accepted the Muslim faith, and the Arabic language became the language of government, culture, and commerce. The Arabization of the country was aided by the continued settlement of Arab tribes in Egypt.
From the time of the conquest onward, Egypt's history was intertwined with the history of the Arab world. Thus, in the eighth century, Egypt felt the effects of the Arab civil war that resulted in the defeat of the Umayyad Dynasty, the establishment of the Abbasid Caliphate, and the transfer of the capital of the empire from Damascus to Baghdad. For Egypt, the transfer of the capital farther east meant a weakening of control by the central government. When the Abbasid Caliphate began to decline in the ninth century, local autonomous dynasties arose to control the political, economic, social, and cultural life of the country.
The Copts were Christian and had practiced Christianity in Egypt hundreds of years before Byzantine Christians and Arabs.
So where do you get the idea that Chistians wanted to drive out foreign occupiers who were also Christian for the reason that they were Christian?
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posted
I don't single out North Africans as one group. The region is genetically heterogeneous and the region is inhabited by various populations(Berber, Tibu, Tuareg, Nubian, Korandje, Eurasian, etc). Those populations have different type and level of admixtures.
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posted
In order to reduce confusion the topic should be Bottomline on Maghrebians because "North African" can be defined in at least 5 different ways anthro-geographically
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^ Lioness has a point. As Amun-Ra pointed out, the peoples of North Africa are diverse and thus have diverse views and opinions; therefore one shouldn't make blanket statements about what North Africans think about themselves and their connections to other Africans. Take for example the Nubians who are North African yet proudly identify as black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Thing is today's people who are supra-Saharan, and even many Saharan and Sahel non-Chadic AfroAsiatic speakers, just simply are not relevant for any Pan-African practicalities or realities.
They do not, in large, identify with Saharan, Sahel, and further southward Africans who don't speak "Berber" or Arabic.
Nor are they the least even interested in us as kindred Africans sharing the same continent the last 30-50,000 years.
So what matter that these NAs do in fact paternally hail from E-P2, as we do, and maternally to U6, a variety of L's, and even from epiPaleolithic and protoHolocene indigenous H1.
The funny thing is despite whatever reservations these North Africans have about other more 'southerly' Africans, once they are in Europe all bets are off!! In Europe, even the lighter-skinned looser-haired North Africans are called n*ggers and jeered with monkey sounds. Just look at what happens to the North African soccer players there.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Disagree with this thread 100%. Auser the mod on this forum is North African and he has an African viewpoint and considers himself African.
I've met MANY REPEAT MANY Northern Sudanese(who are North African) who considers themselves African and are also proud of it from Topix, ForumBiodiversity, Zetaboards,etc.
I've also met SOME Moroccans who consider themselves African.
I agree with Amun-Ra. North Africans have a diverse viewpoint.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
^^ But the real bottomline on North Africans regardless of what they think or identify as, is once they're in Europe they're still n*ggers and monkeys!! That's what! Although I've never been to Europe (yet) I have relatives who live there and friends who have and they all tell me that North Africans are treated the same way as 'Sub-Saharans'. They're just "monkeys" with lighter complexions.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Do you have any videos or news sources of North Africans getting discriminated against in Europe?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
For those of you who want to confuse the subject by dragging in those I never specified or even bring up how white people treat my subject people or you who are just too dense to stick to the subject people or even understand who I mean:
Well which of you have a "Berber" or "Arab" supra Saharan parent or grand parent?
How about an inlaw?
Any of you roll w/supra Saharan North Africans day to day or at parties?
When's the last time you saw one at a "Black" African event?
I'm not talking on paper or a forum or what not. I'm talking about real life experience, offline reality.
What I am talking about whole ethnies not stray individuals.
Other than the few who committed ethnic suicide by marrying and coming to live among us they just simply have no Pan African affiliation period and do not look on us as their fellows.
Deal with it. In your life you've never interacted with these people in even normal social activity much less in the struggle waged by "Black" Africans as whole ethnies.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I've come to believe that, as a general rule, individuals should decide for themselves whether they want to belong to this or that racial group. That's why we conventionally recognize Barack Obama as African-American even though he's half-white. Given that, if Tukuler is right that most of the people living in North Africa today don't identify as Black Africans, we probably have no choice but to respect their choice of identity.
True, you have North Africans with darker skin, frizzier hair, and greater (indigenous) African genetic affinities, so I can see why some of us want to classify those people as Black. However, we all should know by now that racial classification has never been an exact science. That's one of the reasons race is considered a social construct nowadays. If race is a social construct after all, is it really fair to force a particular racial identity onto others against their consent?
It's not like modern North Africans' self-identity has any pertinence to the biological affinities of people who lived in the same region thousands of years ago anyway.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Almost but what I mean is Pan African sympathy not Black African identity which true enough they are not Black Africsn as our own internal literature distinguishes Gnawa from Berber in terms of the former labeled black and the later labeled white (not meaning white Euro).
posted
I remember once seeing a despondent Sudanese Muslim from Darfur on TV, who lamented the fact that Europeans (Christians) rather than fellow Muslims from the Maghreb and the Near East had come to their aid during the al-Bashir sponsored Janjaweed attacks on his village.
The indifferent treatment black Muslims in the Sudan receive from fellow Muslims is especially noteworthy in light of the controversy right now where I live, and elsewhere in Western Europe, concerning segments of the Maghrebi descent community who've flocked to Syria to take up arms against al Assad.
It's clear where coastal N.African people generally stand and you can see it in their lopsided treatment of black Muslims vs Muslims in the Near East. In their eyes, the death of a Muslim in Sudan has nowhere even near the relevancy of the death of a Palestinian or Syrian Muslim. Even Africans who fight alongside Maghrebi Muslim extremists are discriminated against. Ask the Africans in MOJWA why they broke away from the Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb extremists.
The two Nigerians who motivated the murder of that British soldier a couple of months ago as "revenge for the deaths of our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan" will not see their sacrifice reciprocated by their "brothers and sisters" in the Maghreb or elsewhere, for that matter.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I already said it before on this forum self-identity is a tricky thing. Because people of often self identity for socio-economic reasons to other people than their biological roots. For example, many Berbers like to identify themselves as Arabs. There's an arabization process going on on both language and cultural front. Often in combination with Islam. So people often self-identity with people other than their biological roots under socio-economic pressure.
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quote:ETROIT (FinalCall.com) - The United States and the United Kingdom are themselves causing, and then exaggerating, a “crisis” in the African “Motherland’s” largest and possibly wealthiest country—the Sudan—as it’s now called “Darfur,” the country’s president said directly in a live-interactive satellite video conference Feb. 23 with members of the Nation of Islam and reporters attending the Saviours’ Day 2007 conference at Cobo Conference Center. The U.S. and British news media have consistently exaggerated the death toll in Darfur, just as the U.S. has consistently changed its definition of what Sudan must do, in order to gain Western approval of its peace efforts, according to Pres. Omar al-Bashir.
“There is a problem, and the main cause of that problem is the rebellion,” said Pres. Bashir during the un-rehearsed, and un-censored conversation, which was also broadcast live on Sudanese state-run television. “We’ve done everything possible to try to convince those who bore arms against the state and the people, but all efforts and mediation failed,” he said.
Western, so-called “experts” say an estimated 200,000 to even 400,000 people have been killed and 2.5 million driven from their homes in Darfur since 2003. The true number is closer to 9,000, stated Pres. Bashir.
Pres. Bashir acknowledged that his country is facing a “problem” in Darfur, but he blamed rebel groups that did not sign on to a peace agreement concluded in Abuja, Nigeria in May 2006. Those groups became the focus of media attention, as well as the recipients of aid and arms from outside of the country, he said.
First, there were what the brown-skinned president who would be considered “Black” in the U.S., called “false” charges that his “White, Arab” government enslaved some of its “Black,” African countrymen, and even engaged in rape and genocidal “ethnic cleansing” in order to rob and dominate the country’s Black population in the southern regions of the country. Those charges were proven to be hoaxes by investigative reports.
“Talk of Arabs killing Blacks is a lie,” said Pres. Bashir in what may have been the first inter-active video conference between an African head of state with a Black group in this country. “The government of Sudan is a government of Blacks, with all different ethnic backgrounds,” he continued. “We’re all Africans. We’re all Black.”
The Black “slavery” charges were made to politically bolster the Sudanese People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) and the Liberation Army—the SPLA—in the final months before the conclusion of a 19-year civil war.
With the help of former U.S. Senator John Danforth, a Republican from Missouri, the Islamic government negotiated a peace agreement with the rebels, led by John Garang. The U.S. promised that it would lift economic sanctions against Sudan once the peace treaty was put in force. After concluding a peace agreement in neighboring Nairobi, Kenya, the Sudan is now governed by a “national unity” government, including a Vice President, and several cabinet members from the South.
But then, the Darfur crisis erupted when tribal and cultural differences between nomadic herdsmen and farmers spilled into bloodshed. The U.S. again promised to lift sanctions and a peace agreement was reached last year in Abuja, Nigeria, which included the use of a peace-keeping force of nearly 10,000 troops from the African Union. But the U.S. and British paid more attention to the rebel groups which did not join the Abuja Accord, than it did to those who signed it, said Pres. Bashir.
“There is a problem, and the main cause of that problem is the rebellion,” he said. “We’ve done everything possible to try to convince those who bore arms against the state and the people, but all efforts and mediation failed,” he said.
In response to questions from reporters, Pres. Bashir reiterated his rejection of calls for the deployment of some 22,500 U.N. peacekeepers and police to take over the African Union mission in Darfur, saying it would effectively place Sudan under U.N. control, and he compared the attempt to the U.S. intervention in Iraq.
Nation of Islam Chief of Staff Leonard Farrakhan Muhammad, who extended the invitation to Pres. Bashir, said after the speech it was an important message for the Nation and for others to hear.
“Whatever happens in Africa is the business of Black people,” he declared. “Don’t you dare suggest this is beyond the business of the Nation of Islam.”
There is no “conspiracy” between the Nation of Islam and the Islamic government in Khartoum, the Sudanese Ambassador to the U.S. told the crowd at Detroit’s Cobo Hall. Any U.S. group can prove the openness and accessibility of the Sudanese government by issuing an invitation to the Sudanese leaders, just as the Nation of Islam had done.
Many Northern Sudanese IN Sudan are Arabized, but many I met on the net identified as African.
Again like Amun-Ra not all North Africans Africans have similar viewpoints. Its usually the darker indignous Northern Africans that identify as African. Those like Tuaregs, Nubians, Upper Egyptians, southern Libyans,etc...
Also when my sister visited Aswan, she said many of the people identified as African and she was also lighter than most of them.
I'm just bringing my two cents.
Also Pan Africanism can never work.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
and "Pan African sympathy" is popular in America ??
lets talk about how many Black power proponents dont like immigrants from West Africa and not many West African immigrants show up at their events unless vending
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Considering the history of Siwa, it's not surprising.
However, does this count from very single individual, or does this count for a segment of the Siwa population?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I meant of course: So people often self-identify with people other than their biological/genealogical/historical roots under socio-economic pressure.
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The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1
"Before blood collection, people were interviewed in order to ascertain their ethnic origins and to obtain informed consent. All individuals and their families included in this study have been living in the area of interest for at least three generations. In addition, mtDNA haplogroup information from 58 European, Near Eastern, and African populations was used for comparative analyses"
In detail, Asni and Bouhria samples showed slightly similar genetic profiles whereas those from Figuig and Siwa were quite different, in particular because of their higher frequency of L and M1 haplogroups, respec- tively. When lineages are considered one by one, several dif- ferences appear within Moroccan populations, and between Moroccans and Egyptians. For example, among West Eurasian lineages, haplogroup H was the most common in Morocco whereas haplogroups U (without U6 and K) and K were the most represented in Siwa. As for the sub-Saharan lineages in Morocco, the Berbers from Figuig were found to harbor the highest proportion of L mtDNAs. M1 mtDNAs were instead much more frequent in Siwa than in Morocco, whereas U6 was only observed in Morocco with the highest frequency in Asni. Table 3 shows the descriptive parameters of the analyzed populations. Gene diversity values in Asni and Bouhria sam- ples are very similar whereas Figuig and Siwa samples show a reduced diversity level, Siwa showing the lowest values. Forthe nucleotide diversity and mean number of pairwise differ- ences, the sample from Figuig tends to have slightly higher values. The observed reduced diversity in the maternal gene pool of the Berbers from Figuig and Siwa could be attributable to genetic drift because of the relative isolation of the oases where they live.
U5, one of the most ancient subhaplogroup of U, occurs in most cases as occasional haplotypes that are derived from European lineages (Achilli et al. 2005; Richards et al. 2000). In 16.7% of Siwi samples, it appears as U5b, a lineage suggesting back-migration of people from Europe to the South (Torroni et al. 2006).
Three sequences from Asni, two from Bouhria, four from Figuig and four from Siwa, belong to L2 lineages. They appear as four clusters, L2a (in Bouhria and Siwa), L2a1 (only in Moroccan populations), L2b1 (in Asni), and L2d2 (in Figuig). While L2a is the most common and widespread L2 subclade all over Africa, L2b is largely restricted to western Africa and L2d is rather rare but also appears to be restricted to Western Africa (Salas et al. 2002; Torroni et al. 2001).
Although U6 is considered specific of Berber populations, its absence in the Siwa sample suggests a differentiation be- tween Berber-speakers living at the extremes of their geo- graphical distribution range. An opposite trend is that ob- served for M1 that is much more common in the Berbers from Egypt than in the Berbers from Morocco. This reveals a more significant east African influence in the North Eastern African genetic pool than in the North Western one.
many articles will speak of North Africa as the Maghreb. If they are using that definition, technically the Siwa are not North African, That is why it might be better to not use the term "North African" at all in many cases.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
I'm not sure how that applies to the above two men. Are they black people?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
My eyeball archeology is telling me the North Africans are mulato and black people. The North Africans looks like Brazilians, Puerto Ricans and Cubans. There was no division between North Africans and the interior of Africa Africans during Ancient, classical and early middle age period of history.
The divide to rule policy of the Arab moslems created the division between North African and Interior African. The Muslim Arab conquerors of North Africa taught the convert North Africans they were superior to non muslims Africans. The Arab muslims told the North Africans that they should hate the interior Africans because they are infidels. European when they colonized the world and North Africa taught the world and North African anti black African racism.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
My wife lived in Egypt, and visited Siwa. She has told me on a number of occasions, she has never met a siwans who was be considered anything other than black. Some are light, some are dark but they are all black people. There are outside people now living in Siwa, but the local person is and has always been black.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
My wife lived in Egypt, and visited Siwa. She has told me on a number of occasions, she has never met a siwans who was be considered anything other than black. Some are light, some are dark but they are all black people. There are outside people now living in Siwa, but the local person is and has always been black.
Your wifes Egyptian? If so cool!
I have a younger sister who lived in Egypt and she said the people from Aswan considered themselves black.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
I always find it ridiculous people who try to assign some North African populations (Siwa, Berber, Tuareg, etc) to either Eurasian (white) or African (black) category.
Both visually and genetically, many North African populations have a mixed heritage. The precise make up varies among populations and individuals.
Culturally, most North African populations seem to be highly influenced by the Arab/Muslim culture prevalent in North Africa.
This is normal for any states that border another region (or other regions).
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posted
Quote : Both visually and genetically, many North African populations have a mixed heritage??????
Quote: So what matter that these NAs do in fact paternally hail from E-P2, as we do, and maternally to U6, a variety of L's, and even from epiPaleolithic and protoHolocene indigenous H1.
You are thick, aren't you?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I'm just saying that it's normal for populations in North Africa, a region located between Europe/West Asia and the rest of Africa to have genetic contributions from all those 3 regions at various point in history and at various level.
Not because I am an African that I'm going to force down an identity to them. Their identity is mixed and varies among populations and individuals.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
LOL This seems like more a joke than anything else to say that the Siwa gene-pool became skewed due to homosexuality and homosexual marriage on part of the men.
Out of curiosity, what was this bottle neck event anyways??
Also, the Siwa are just ONE of the several oases peoples of Egypt let alone all of North Africa.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
@ Ultimate. Bantus do not own Africa. They are not the only Africans. North Africans are also indigenous Africans irregardless of what you think an African should look like . Recent Africans have several things in common - PN2 , L, U6, dark /black skin, similar STR. North Africans are not admixed with anyone. They look like the look because of the geographic niche they and there ancestors occupied. J2 may be the ONLY recent migrants to the area . Stop eyeballing, behavior is no different to a Eurocentric.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Tunisians are light skin because they occupied a location outside the dark latitudes of Africa. They are not admixed. Infact they are the most distant genetically from Europeans. Can you use science and logic when you post.
Of course visually many think they are Europeans including they themselves....I am told. But they are not . That is why we must use our heads.......
All are Africans ...All are black/brown. Judging from what one brotha posted about his wife. Many look at themselves as Black Africans.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
LOL This seems like more a joke than anything else to say that the Siwa gene-pool became skewed due to homosexuality and homosexual marriage on part of the men.
Out of curiosity, what was this bottle neck event anyways??
Also, the Siwa are just ONE of the several oases peoples of Egypt let alone all of North Africa.
. Since you find it so funny do your own research which maybe you will respect. What's dopey is not realizing if in general a population's men prefer each other to the extent of actually marrying one another and reserving their womenfolk for procreation then women have one option when they want dick and that is to get it from outsiders.
In any event there are resources on the topic of Siwan man-boy legal marriage and Siwan female free love activity with non-Siwan males available to researchers.
Believe it or shrug it off, the choice is yours. I really don't care what you think. I deal in the facts not what I wish things to be as suits what I would rather believe.
It's due to Siwan women's free love activities with men who are not from Siwa; travelers traders etc.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
See. Sage and I agree on most things. Homosexuality is not one of them. Maybe DJ can do the research and get back to us. I am curious on the bottleneck event also.
What is meant by "marrying"? Living like spouses in the same home. How do the women fit in? No sex for them? It is difficult to visualize how this works.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Ultimate. Bantus do not own Africa. They are not the only Africans. North Africans are also indigenous Africans irregardless of what you think an African should look like . Recent Africans have several things in common - PN2 , L, U6, dark /black skin, similar STR. North Africans are not admixed with anyone. They look like the look because of the geographic niche they and there ancestors occupied. J2 may be the ONLY recent migrants to the area . Stop eyeballing, behavior is no different to a Eurocentric.
I still repeat that there's nothing wrong with being admixed even with Eurasian or European. Obama is admixed African-European and he did great things (although pretty similar to other US president before him like Bush jr).
I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging the mixed European-West Asian-Sub-Saharan African heritage, in ancient and modern time and at various proportion, of most North African populations.
It's normal process for a region to have contributions from the various region neighboring it. Having genetic, historic and cultural contribution from Europe, the Middle East and the rest of Africa is something very good. For example Sudan have contribution from both Egypt and Uganda (among others). Nigeria from Cameroon and Niger, etc.
So, yes, it is ridiculous to try to assign the genetic closeness of North African populations to either Europeans, Arabs, Africans, etc when it is clear they have a mixed heritage (genetically, historically, culturally, etc). Even themselves acknowledge this fact as they don't see themselves as purely sub-Saharan African or purely Arabs or Europeans (although many of them tend to promote their Arab linkage due to socio-economic pressure mentioned above and by Tukuler to start this thread).
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posted
You do know the P25 resolution is down to R-V88. Same as Bedoiuns. Also, "Nile is a Barrier" Underhill et al
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You do know the P25 resolution is down to R-V88. Same as Bedoiuns. Also, "Nile is a Barrier" Underhill et al
I understand where you coming from. Somehow we can say every haplogroups and DNA in a region is from the region it is now or will eventually be. Without caring about origin.
For example, every R in Africa is African. Every E1b1a/M2 in Europe is European (or will be), etc. Any DNA profile or haplogroup that stay in a region for a very long time, no matter its origin, become "localized" with time.
In term of genetic analysis, for example if they applied to a genetic genealogy company like DNA Tribes, ftdna, etc, to analyse their origin and genetic closeness to other populations; Many R individuals in Africa and possibly some E1b1a individual in Europe would cluster with Africa and Europe respectively. While others would inversely cluster with Europe and Africa respectively.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
No! No! Alleged promiscuity of Siwa women. The chart. Proof is in the pudding... data. Also frequency of hgA. Same as the Sudan. Shows they are an old population. Data breakdown is similar to that famous Sudan breakdown paper by Aboud et al (?)
Point? This is not proof of gay Siwa men. The data shows they are an old population. R-v88 and hgA. The neighboring Negev Bedouins also carry the Cameroonian marker. Are they also Homos?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
LOL This seems like more a joke than anything else to say that the Siwa gene-pool became skewed due to homosexuality and homosexual marriage on part of the men.
Out of curiosity, what was this bottle neck event anyways??
Also, the Siwa are just ONE of the several oases peoples of Egypt let alone all of North Africa.
. Since you find it so funny do your own research which maybe you will respect. What's dopey is not realizing if in general a population's men prefer each other to the extent of actually marrying one another and reserving their womenfolk for procreation then women have one option when they want dick and that is to get it from outsiders.
In any event there are resources on the topic of Siwan man-boy legal marriage and Siwan female free love activity with non-Siwan males available to researchers.
Believe it or shrug it off, the choice is yours. I really don't care what you think. I deal in the facts not what I wish things to be as suits what I would rather believe.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
My wife lived in Egypt, and visited Siwa. She has told me on a number of occasions, she has never met a siwans who was be considered anything other than black. Some are light, some are dark but they are all black people. There are outside people now living in Siwa, but the local person is and has always been black.
Your wifes Egyptian? If so cool!
I have a younger sister who lived in Egypt and she said the people from Aswan considered themselves black.
Black Egyptians naturally consider themselves black! The problem is, in the west they try to portray Africa in a certain line, especially north Africa, and it just isnt true. My wife told me that outside of lower Egypt, most of the people would be considered black. It is only in the major Northern cities that you get the sons and daughters of long past white slaves and invaders.
There is a great story about a black Egyptian professor in the Detroit area that was classified as being white by Americans when he immigrated. when he would talk to white colleagues about him being a black african, they (the whites) would get all up in a huff and tell him he wasn't black and that he shared nothing in common with afro americans. This rift among the Diaspora is definitely the doing of Europeans, but we have to do better to embrace each other. Africans in America also need to go visit their roots in Africa, go see with your own eyes and meet the people.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Tunisians are light skin because they occupied a location outside the dark latitudes of Africa. They are not admixed. Infact they are the most distant genetically from Europeans. Can you use science and logic when you post.
Of course visually many think they are Europeans including they themselves....I am told. But they are not . That is why we must use our heads.......
All are Africans ...All are black/brown. Judging from what one brotha posted about his wife. Many look at themselves as Black Africans.
Then why are there black native Tunisians? See for this theory to work all Tunisians would have to be white or tan of some sort. Their could be no native black people there (which their are). North Africa whites are not nor have they ever been native to the area. If they were, you wouldn't have so many eye witness accounts from 500 BC all the way to 900 AD stating the area is completely black.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Siwa has dark and light skinned people but contrary to the status quo here at ES the proportion is maybe half and half not predominately black.
Though the nrY haplogroups not posted Siwa is so genetically diverse due to local availability of women to outside males as the local males prefered each other at one time to the point of man boy marriage.
Some centuries ago there was a bottle neck event decimating Siwa's "Berber" population to less than 500 souls, iirc.
My wife lived in Egypt, and visited Siwa. She has told me on a number of occasions, she has never met a siwans who was be considered anything other than black. Some are light, some are dark but they are all black people. There are outside people now living in Siwa, but the local person is and has always been black.
Your wifes Egyptian? If so cool!
I have a younger sister who lived in Egypt and she said the people from Aswan considered themselves black.
Black Egyptians naturally consider themselves black! The problem is, in the west they try to portray Africa in a certain line, especially north Africa, and it just isnt true. My wife told me that outside of lower Egypt, most of the people would be considered black. It is only in the major Northern cities that you get the sons and daughters of long past white slaves and invaders.
There is a great story about a black Egyptian professor in the Detroit area that was classified as being white by Americans when he immigrated. when he would talk to white colleagues about him being a black african, they (the whites) would get all up in a huff and tell him he wasn't black and that he shared nothing in common with afro americans. This rift among the Diaspora is definitely the doing of Europeans, but we have to do better to embrace each other. Africans in America also need to go visit their roots in Africa, go see with your own eyes and meet the people.
Wow...I never knew most Egyptians outside Lower Egypt were considered black in Egypt. This is something to new to me. I there were a significant population of blacks in Upper Egypt, but I never knew almost all were black. Correct me if I am wrong, if I am wording you incorrectly.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
No! No! Alleged promiscuity of Siwa women. The chart. Proof is in the pudding... data. Also frequency of hgA. Same as the Sudan. Shows they are an old population. Data breakdown is similar to that famous Sudan breakdown paper by Aboud et al (?)
Point? This is not proof of gay Siwa men. The data shows they are an old population. R-v88 and hgA. The neighboring Negev Bedouins also carry the Cameroonian marker. Are they also Homos?
.
Don't be silly. The bar graph proves Siwan nrY is more diverse than other Imazighen. Obviously there's ethnic variety in Siwa fatherhood unknown in Mzab (Algeria) and Morocco.
This supports the idea of much non-local fatherhood. The miniscule 1.08% of E-M81 versus E-M81's signature level freqs in Mzab and Morocco, upwards of 71%, supports a bottleneck assuming Siwa shared E-M81 frequencies similar to Mzab and Morocco before the 13th century event.
That Siwans are Imazighen is show by the nrY of the represented "Berber" groups.
Haplogroups shared between Siwa and only other site
code:
E M35 E M123 J M172 R P25 R M269 T M70 x78/81 xM269 Siwa 6.45 2.15 6.45 26.88 1.08 2.15 Mzab 1.49 1.49 2.99 Bouhria Mid Atlas Asni 1.85 1.85 1.85
.
Two more tables could be drawn up. Anyone can go to that Ethio Helix webpage and see (1) what haplogroups Siwa has but none of the others do, or (2) Hgs all others have except Siwa.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Don't be silly. The bar graph proves Siwan nrY is more diverse than other Imazighen. Obviously there's ethnic variety in Siwa fatherhood unknown in Mzab (Algeria) and Morocco.
This supports the idea of much non-local fatherhood. The miniscule 1.08% of E-M81 versus E-M81's signature level freqs in Mzab and Morocco, upwards of 71%, supports a bottleneck assuming Siwa shared E-M81 frequencies similar to Mzab and Morocco before the 13th century event.
Based on what you say, it's the contrary. You start well by noting the lack of genetic/haplotype diversity among the Berber (beside the Siwa). They almost all are E-M81. But then you use that to say that it is the Siwa, if I understand you well, that suffered some kind of bottleneck event. When it is actually the group with the lowest haplotype and nucleotide diversity which usually suffered some kind of bottleneck event. By definition a bottleneck event reduce the diversity of DNA.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The bottleneck was from an event that reduced Siwa's Berber population.
If Berbers were the specific target then Hgs associated more with non-Berbers would not suffer the same pinch.
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This seems like more a joke than anything else to say that the Siwa gene-pool became skewed due to homosexuality and homosexual marriage on part of the men. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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