posted
Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions.
August 1986, Volume 1, Issue 4, pp 313-324 Predynastic egyptian stature and physical proportions G. Robins, C. C. D. Shute
Abstract An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length usingTrotter &Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published byTrotter &Gleser. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic, proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed «super-negroid».
which Pharoah has 84.8 limb ratio according to Robins and Shute?
(Also Stringer Gamble said 84.9, probably the same sample, In Search of the Neanderthals: Solving the Puzzle of Human Origins, pg 92)
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posted
It says Pharaohs, as a plural. So likely they've tested more than just one. But perhaps if you read the actual paper it will answer your questions. I have not read it, but is think Swenet and Zaharan have. They perhaps can answer you on this as well. After all, they've debunked you many times on crania and post-cranial dimensions.
However. It appears there dimensions came close to that of those from the Naqada dynasty. Naqada is a predynastic period to KMT (Egypt)
quote:Zakrzewski (2003) studied skeletal samples from the Badarian period to the Middle Kingdom. She confirmed the results of Robins and Shute that Ancient Egyptians in general had "tropical body plans" but that their proportions were actually "super-negroid".[58]
Naqada is located in Upper Egypt.
code:
PREDYNASTIC PERIOD (5000-3000)
Badarian Culture 5000-4000 BC Naqada I (Amratian) Culture 4000-3500 BC Naqada II (Gerzian) Culture 3500-3150 BC Naqada III Culture 3150-3000 BC
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QUOTE: "The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
Notice how this term "Negroid" is validated when zarahan likes what is said but he he doesn't like what is said, it's a racial term and there is no such thing as race.
"Super Negroid" here means more tropical than regular "Negroids", having a higher limb ratio index than regular "Negroids"
Looking above and assuming "Negroid" is a valid term Pre Dynastic Egyptians according to Robins and Shute were Male 84.8 Female 84.0
My mistake here with the thread title, the Pharoahs are not listed at 84.8 Robins and Shute say the Pharoahs had a lower limb ratio for some reason Male 82.4 Female 81.9 (not the 84.8 of the Pre Dynastic) why this would be the case I don't know THREAD TITLE QUESTION CANCELED
On the same chart Ruff and Walker list European range 78.4-83.1
They list a high point for Europeans 83.1, higher than the Pharoahs 82.4 __________________________________
Predynastic egyptian stature and physical proportions 1986
G. Robins and C. C. D. Shute Abstract An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published byTrotter &Gleser. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic, proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed «super-negroid».
______________
Second point
Going back to that Pre Dynastic males 84.8
Compare to U.S. Blacks (Terry), Raxter 83.0- 83.1
^^^ based on this some might say the Pre Dynastic Egyptians were more Tropical in limb ratios than the "Negroid" Blacks Therefore "Super Negroid"
Yet if we look the same chart at other so called "Negroids" Ruff and Walker list Modern African 82.8-85.8
The 85.8 high end of Modern Africans is significantly higher then Pre Dynastic male 84.8
This means the Pre Dynastic Egyptians were not more Tropical than other Africans not "super Negroid" only compared to U.S. Blacks (Terry) - or Pharoahs
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posted
^Perhaps they used the term Negroid to reinforce that it was an African type of people.
Also, the timing was different from now. In use of terminology.
The predynastic Africans in Egypt were more steady in measurement, and on average more tropical in portions. Whereas there is a wider range within modern Africans.
Some African Americans have European admixture, thus this logically effects the measures in the ratios. And the index (c) for modern Europeans and African Americans speaks of "pooled sex".
Further more, Zaharan refers to "table 7". Do you know what "table 7" shows?
quote: "African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley vary but they are still related. The people most related ethnically to the ancient Egyptians are other Africans like Nubians not cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics.
quote:Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans should not exhibit tropically-adapted limb proportions, since, even assuming replacement, their ancestors had experienced cold stress in glacial Europe for at least 12 millennia. [...] Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. [...] The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holliday TW J Hum Evol. 1999 May;36(5):549-66. Brachial and crural indices of European late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "Super Negroid" here means more tropical than regular "Negroids", having a higher limb ratio index than regular "Negroids"
The Egyptians didn't have "super-negroid" limb proportions. Enough data has come out by now to show that this is a myth, especially their crural indices. Their brachial indices, however, are rather high, and more tending to the African side of the equation. How tropically adapted their limbs were doesn't matter (limb length is not a useful litmus test of recent African ancestry, as evidenced by the limbs lengths of European Mesolithic samples). What matters is that the Ancient Egyptian limb lengths are such that they cannot be accounted for by Ancient Egypt's ecology and that they rule out an origin independent of the tropics.
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posted
zarahan put this "super negroid" quote up again in his latest post in "Bogus Wikipedia moles exposed and debunked" I think it's safe to safe there is no such thing as a "super negroid" proportion.
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posted
^You're questioning the term itself. That's a separate topic from whether the underlying observation about AE limb length being "super- negroid" is correct.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: zarahan put this "super negroid" quote up again in his latest post in "Bogus Wikipedia moles exposed and debunked" I think it's safe to safe there is no such thing as a "super negroid" proportion.
It's safe to say that Zarahan cited the source correctly, since they speak of relative measurements.
Wiki vs.
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
quote: African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley vary but they are still related. The people most related ethnically to the ancient Egyptians are other Africans like Nubians not cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics.
--Godde (2009)
quote: "The Lower Egyptian cultures in the fifth and fourth millennia are marked by an architecture of ovoid or circular huts (pl. 1:8) made of light material (mud and reeds), rather close in aspect to the traditional architecture of sub-Saharan Africa."
--Olin and Blin 2003
quote:What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
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