posted
I was looking up Siwa and came across this from wikipedia:
Siwan homosexual tradition
Siwa is of special interest to anthropologists and sociologists because of its historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals of same-sex marriage—traditions that Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early twentieth century. The practice probably arose because from ancient times unmarried men and adolescent boys were required to live and work together outside the town of Shali, secluded for several years from any access to available women.
The German egyptologist George Steindorff explored the Oasis in 1900 and reported that homosexual relations were common and often extended to a form of marriage: "The feast of marrying a boy was celebrated with great pomp, and the money paid for a boy sometimes amounted to fifteen pounds, while the money paid for a woman was a little over one pound."[13] Mahmud Mohamrnad Abd Allah, writing of Siwan customs for the Harvard Peabody Museum in 1917, commented that although Siwan men could take up to four wives, "Siwan customs allow a man but one boy to whom he is bound by a stringent code of obligations."[14] In 1937 the anthropologist Walter Cline wrote the first detailed ethnography of the Siwans in which he noted: ""All normal Siwan men and boys practice sodomy...among themselves the natives are not ashamed of this; they talk about it as openly as they talk about love of women, and many if not most of their fights arise from homosexual competition....Prominent men lend their sons to each other. All Siwans know the matings which have taken place among their sheiks and their sheiks' sons....Most of the boys used in sodomy are between twelve and eighteen years of age." [15] After an expedition to Siwa, the archaeologist Count Byron de Prorok reported in 1937 "an enthusiasm [that] could not have been approached even in Sodom... Homosexuality was not merely rampant, it was raging...Every dancer had his boyfriend...[and] chiefs had harems of boys.[16] In the late 1940s a Siwan merchant told the visiting British novelist Robin Maugham that the Siwan women were "badly neglected", but that Siwan men "will kill each other for boy. Never for a woman", although as Maugham noted, marriage to a boy had become illegal by then.[17] The Egyptian archaeologist Ahmed Fakhry, who studied Siwa for three decades, observed in 1973 that "While the Siwans were still living inside their walled town, none of these bachelors was allowed to spend the night in the town and had to sleep outside the gates...Under such circumstances it is not surprising that homosexuality was common among them....Up to the year 1928, it was not unusual that some kind of written agreement, which was sometimes called a marriage contract, was made between two males; but since the visit of King Fu'ad to this oasis it has been completely forbidden...However, such agreements continued, but in great secrecy, and without the actual writing, until the end of World War II. Now the practice is not followed." [18]
Despite the multiplicity of sources for these practices, the Egyptian authorities and even the Siwan tribal elders have attempted to repress the historical and anthropological record. When the Siwa-born anthropologist Fathi Malim included reference to Siwan homosexuality (especially a love poem from a man to a youth) in his book Oasis Siwa (2001),[19] the tribal council demanded that he blank out the material in the current edition of the book and remove it from future editions, or be expelled from the community. Malim reluctantly agreed and physically deleted the passages in the first edition of his book, and excluded them from the second.[20] A newer book Siwa Past and Present (2005) by A. Dumairy, the Director of Siwa Antiquities, discreetly omits all mention of the famous historical practices of the inhabitants [21]
ref 13-20
^ Steindorff, George (1904 p.111). Durch die Libysche Wuste Zur Amonoase. Leipsig: Velohgen and Klasing.
^ Allah, Abd (1917). "Siwan Customs". Harvard African Studies 7. ^ Cline, Walter (1936, p 43). Notes on the People of Siwa.
Menasha, Wisconsin, USA: George Banta Publishing Co. ^ De Porok, Count Byron (1936 p 64). In Quest of Lost Worlds. New York: Dutton.
^ Maugham, Robin (1950 p80). Journey to Siwa. London: Chapman and Hall.
^ Fakhry, Ahmed (1973). Siwa Oasis. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press. pp. 41–43.
^ Malim, Fathi (2001). Oasis Siwa from the Inside. Siwa. ^ "Siwan anthropologist sparks controversy". Cultural Survival. Retrieved November 14, 2002.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
As far as I know Siwa was never connected to or populated by archaic, OK, MK and NK dynastic Egyptians, unlike some of the other oases that were integrated into the Egyptian economies by the Mentuhoteps in the Middle Kingdom. Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from.
Using the data in the OP to inform us about views towards homosexuality in Ancient Egypt is tempting, but, like I said, the two populations were probably isolated from each other. It might also be the case that the archaeologically attested prehistoric populations in Siwa were a different population from the current inhabitants, but whatever the origin of the former, morphometrics suggest they were close to pre-dynastic Egyptians.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: U6 is uncommon in Siwa Of Egypt showing the East and West NA distribution of U6 are different
U5 is the most ancient lineage of the U family
U5 is found in 16.7% of Siwa berbers (torroni 2006) They also have higher frequencies of L and M1 than Moroccan berbers where H is common, although Siwa have some H1. U6 is higher in Morrocan berbers but Asni in particular, I think around 30%.
Another thing that sest Siwa apart is much lower frequency of E-M81 which is about 60% and up in other berbers. Some of this is expected due to their isolated geopgraphic position
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Or the fact that they probably never had much Berber ancestry to begin with, just like the Nile Valley dynastic Egyptians. I tend to think the same thing that happened to the el-Hayez oasis, happened to Siwa.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As far as I know Siwa was never connected to or populated by archaic, OK, MK and NK dynastic Egyptians, unlike some of the other oases that were integrated into the Egyptian economies by the Mentuhoteps in the Middle Kingdom. Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from.
Using the data in the OP to inform us about views towards homosexuality in Ancient Egypt is tempting, but, like I said, the two populations were probably isolated from each other. It might also be the case that the archaeologically attested prehistoric populations in Siwa were a different population from the current inhabitants, but whatever the origin of the former, morphometrics suggest they were close to pre-dynastic Egyptians.
wiki says " Although the oasis is known to have been settled since at least the 10th millennium BC, the earliest evidence of connection with ancient Egypt is the 26th Dynasty, when a necropolis was established"
there is a big gap between 10 millenium and the 26th dynasty. Is there any evidence of a population living there bewteen these two dates?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Or the fact that they probably never had much Berber ancestry to begin with, just like the Nile Valley dynastic Egyptians. I tend to think the same thing that happened to the el-Hayez oasis, happened to Siwa.
I first heard of Siwan man-boy marriages and the alledged ease of scoring Siwan kitty decades ago. I watched a travelogue recently saying in the 13th century the Berber population of Siwa was reduced to 80 individuals.
If these things are true -- female hospitality and the near extermination bottleneck -- I find them so interesting in light of Siwa Oasis population genetics and phenotypes.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As far as I know Siwa was never connected to or populated by archaic, OK, MK and NK dynastic Egyptians, unlike some of the other oases that were integrated into the Egyptian economies by the Mentuhoteps in the Middle Kingdom. Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from.
Using the data in the OP to inform us about views towards homosexuality in Ancient Egypt is tempting, but, like I said, the two populations were probably isolated from each other. It might also be the case that the archaeologically attested prehistoric populations in Siwa were a different population from the current inhabitants, but whatever the origin of the former, morphometrics suggest they were close to pre-dynastic Egyptians.
wiki says " Although the oasis is known to have been settled since at least the 10th millennium BC, the earliest evidence of connection with ancient Egypt is the 26th Dynasty, when a necropolis was established"
there is a big gap between 10 millenium and the 26th dynasty. Is there any evidence of a population living there bewteen these two dates?
There are at least three substrata in Siwa Berbers. You have the NRY B group, along with specific mtDNA L0, L3 and L4 subclades, which would have been shared with Egypto-Nubians. You have the NRY R-V88 group and mtDNA L3e subclades which are shared with Chadic speakers. There is also the small pocket change of NRY E-M81 and mtDNA U6, H1, which is shared with Berbers. Siwa M1, but also Siwa E-V6 was possibly introduced by Egyptian speakers, whom I suspect can be tentatively identified with the earliest Naqada semi-nomands, for various reasons.
When you put these genetic substrata in line with the 10th millenium bc date mentioned in the wiki article, only the first substratum I mentioned is old enough to comfortably date back to that period. I think its quite possible that this substratum is a relic of these prehistoric Siwans, especially if this prehistoric culture they're talking about shows continuation well after the 10th millenium bc, because that's when folks found themselves trapped in the oases and Nile Valley, and migration slowed down (due to aridification). Based on the fact that Siwa is the only remaining Northern African hotspot of R-v88, and due to the fact that the Chadic L3e subclades spread to the rest of Northern Africa during this period, I suspect that the Chadic genetic signature made its way in (into Siwa) right before aridification set in ~5.5kya, and the rest of this haplogroup made its way down to Cameroon. And then, after that, things would have stayed mostly the same, until much later, when the Berber elements entered the region, around the same time of late dynastic Egyptian contact with Siwa. Why? Because that's about how old the branch of Berber Siwa belongs to, is calculated to be. Like I said above, I believe this is also around the same time Berbers entered the el-Hayez oasis with their E-M81.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Or the fact that they probably never had much Berber ancestry to begin with, just like the Nile Valley dynastic Egyptians. I tend to think the same thing that happened to the el-Hayez oasis, happened to Siwa.
I first heard of Siwan man-boy marriages and the alledged ease of scoring Siwan kitty decades ago. I watched a travelogue recently saying in the 13th century the Berber population of Siwa was reduced to 80 individuals.
If these things are true -- female hospitality and the near extermination bottleneck -- I find them so interesting in light of Siwa Oasis population genetics and phenotypes.
No kidding. Lucky for us students of genetics that Siwa is isolated, with all that promiscuity going on. Relaxed attitudes towards sex, at least male-female sex, would have been very similar in Ancient Egypt (as indicated by the ancient documents) and we all know how the average modern Egyptian turned out, autosomally speaking. To this day, both Western and Arab men flock to Egypt for hit and run sex with Egyptian women.
As for the bottleneck--very interesting. Do you have more information about this?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Frankly I don't know what genetics has to do with this cultural tradition or custom. As far as this form of homosexual relations is concerned, it known as pederasty or kourophilia. While the most famous examples are known from Greece where the term comes from, this practice was once widespread in various and disparate cultures across the globe. And despite some attitudes against homosexuality in Africa today, we know that homosexual relations even instituted pederasty was practiced as traditions among certain African groups like the Azande which comes to my mind. As far as similar traditions in Egypt, I don't know of such. In fact ancient Egyptians tend to frown on homosexuality as 'sinful' according to the 'Professions' of funerary texts, although there was a bizarre incident in a myth involving Set and his nephew Heru (Horus) where Set admired his nephew's "backside", but then Heru steals his uncle's virility and then "spears" his uncle from 'top' to 'bottom'.
Mind you pederasty in Greece was an ancient custom that seems to have predated the Hellas (Indo-European Greeks) and was said to have been practiced by the pre-Hellenic folks both in the peninsula as well as Crete and some Greek authors say the custom originated among the Cretans. I don't know if the Cretan custom was in turn derived from their African forebears or not.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I was looking up Siwa and came across this from wikipedia:
Siwan homosexual tradition
Siwa is of special interest to anthropologists and sociologists because of its historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals of same-sex marriage—traditions that Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early twentieth century. The practice probably arose because from ancient times unmarried men and adolescent boys were required to live and work together outside the town of Shali, secluded for several years from any access to available women.
The German egyptologist George Steindorff explored the Oasis in 1900 and reported that homosexual relations were common and often extended to a form of marriage: "The feast of marrying a boy was celebrated with great pomp, and the money paid for a boy sometimes amounted to fifteen pounds, while the money paid for a woman was a little over one pound."[13] Mahmud Mohamrnad Abd Allah, writing of Siwan customs for the Harvard Peabody Museum in 1917, commented that although Siwan men could take up to four wives, "Siwan customs allow a man but one boy to whom he is bound by a stringent code of obligations."[14] In 1937 the anthropologist Walter Cline wrote the first detailed ethnography of the Siwans in which he noted: ""All normal Siwan men and boys practice sodomy...among themselves the natives are not ashamed of this; they talk about it as openly as they talk about love of women, and many if not most of their fights arise from homosexual competition....Prominent men lend their sons to each other. All Siwans know the matings which have taken place among their sheiks and their sheiks' sons....Most of the boys used in sodomy are between twelve and eighteen years of age." [15] After an expedition to Siwa, the archaeologist Count Byron de Prorok reported in 1937 "an enthusiasm [that] could not have been approached even in Sodom... Homosexuality was not merely rampant, it was raging...Every dancer had his boyfriend...[and] chiefs had harems of boys.[16] In the late 1940s a Siwan merchant told the visiting British novelist Robin Maugham that the Siwan women were "badly neglected", but that Siwan men "will kill each other for boy. Never for a woman", although as Maugham noted, marriage to a boy had become illegal by then.[17] The Egyptian archaeologist Ahmed Fakhry, who studied Siwa for three decades, observed in 1973 that "While the Siwans were still living inside their walled town, none of these bachelors was allowed to spend the night in the town and had to sleep outside the gates...Under such circumstances it is not surprising that homosexuality was common among them....Up to the year 1928, it was not unusual that some kind of written agreement, which was sometimes called a marriage contract, was made between two males; but since the visit of King Fu'ad to this oasis it has been completely forbidden...However, such agreements continued, but in great secrecy, and without the actual writing, until the end of World War II. Now the practice is not followed." [18]
Despite the multiplicity of sources for these practices, the Egyptian authorities and even the Siwan tribal elders have attempted to repress the historical and anthropological record. When the Siwa-born anthropologist Fathi Malim included reference to Siwan homosexuality (especially a love poem from a man to a youth) in his book Oasis Siwa (2001),[19] the tribal council demanded that he blank out the material in the current edition of the book and remove it from future editions, or be expelled from the community. Malim reluctantly agreed and physically deleted the passages in the first edition of his book, and excluded them from the second.[20] A newer book Siwa Past and Present (2005) by A. Dumairy, the Director of Siwa Antiquities, discreetly omits all mention of the famous historical practices of the inhabitants [21]
ref 13-20
^ Steindorff, George (1904 p.111). Durch die Libysche Wuste Zur Amonoase. Leipsig: Velohgen and Klasing.
^ Allah, Abd (1917). "Siwan Customs". Harvard African Studies 7. ^ Cline, Walter (1936, p 43). Notes on the People of Siwa.
Menasha, Wisconsin, USA: George Banta Publishing Co. ^ De Porok, Count Byron (1936 p 64). In Quest of Lost Worlds. New York: Dutton.
^ Maugham, Robin (1950 p80). Journey to Siwa. London: Chapman and Hall.
^ Fakhry, Ahmed (1973). Siwa Oasis. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press. pp. 41–43.
^ Malim, Fathi (2001). Oasis Siwa from the Inside. Siwa. ^ "Siwan anthropologist sparks controversy". Cultural Survival. Retrieved November 14, 2002.
One should not forget that the Siwa was once colonized by the Greeks.
Ancient Greeks and fagotism go hand in hand.
Even the sexually loaded term "doing it Greek" means "rocking the behind"! So it was indeed a Greek custom, and if so in the Siwa, it means Greek influence.
This means that we finally have found Greek influence in Egypt.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
" A local manuscript mentions only seven families totaling 40 men living at the oasis in 1203"
(I think they are referring to the Siwan Manuscript of which there are only two existing copies. The Siwun manuscript was begun more than 100 years ago by one Abu Musallim, a qadi, or judge, who had been educated at the al-Azhar University in Cairo. It includes a summary of information from medieval Arab chroniclers, as well as the oral traditions of Siwa itself. I would have to look into this further, if taken literally it's odd that they are described as 40 men, no women or children mentioned.
This is an interesting long article on Siwa history from the touregypt site:
I'm about to read it.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
No kidding. Lucky for us students of genetics that Siwa is isolated, with all that promiscuity going on. Relaxed attitudes towards sex, at least male-female sex, would have been very similar in Ancient Egypt (as indicated by the ancient documents) and we all know how the average modern Egyptian turned out, autosomally speaking. To this day, both Western and Arab men flock to Egypt for hit and run sex with Egyptian women.
As for the bottleneck--very interesting. Do you have more information about this?
A suppose its more a "men are after the boys so women turn to whatever men they can get." Their men realize if ladies don't get pregnant there'll be no more Siwa.
But yeah, I imagine when it comes to visitors its very much like fresh meat at a singles hookup nook.
Still unable to find any documentation for the travelogue's 13th century bottleneck. Just that a website gave the number as 200 and that a fortress went up in that century. No direct statement of inordinate Beduin Arab aggression like from banu Hillal or whoever but then, they didn't erect a fort because there was nothing better to do.
I see the Lioness researched and found more about documentation on the bottleneck. So Siwa pre-13th century most likely was a different population set than reconstituted Siwa since then. Again, pointers there for some of the uniparental findings about Siwis.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now that I think of it, I have heard of homosexual traditions in North Africa among Berbers. Morocco is infamous in the Islamic world for carrying on this tradition albeit not as openly. In fact, Morocco is known as a gay tourism hot spot!
I've long heard of North Africa's male prostitutes servicing female clientele mainly from Europe, though I'm not surprise to hear of them servicing men as well.
Unfortunately, there is the despicable practice of trafficking of boys into Europe. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
NA pansexuality? It's as old as the rock art.
The gay agenda never ceases. from what I understand it is an vulgar, filthy and "sinful" act in ancient and modern African society. Supra-sahara and south Sahara
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
No people on earth are exempt from homosexuality, as long noted on ES including various in Africa. Europeans as well- with the Greeks lionizing such practices as part of a "higher" cultural undertaking. And today, the homosexual marriage push is strongest in European or European-derived countries. Few other countries are pushing for the redefinition of the millennia old marriage bond in this way.
That's the difference between Europe and a lot of other places. Treating homosexual unions the same as traditional male-female marriages is certainly novel in human experience. There were mimic marriages to be sure among various peoples, but all hold for the primacy of the male-female union, particularly in view of the procreation/rearing of children. Mimicry might be there in various places, but they don't or consider homosexual unions equal to male-female unions. Assorted "biodiversity" types hold European evolution was accelerated due to a penchant for novel human experiences. If so, then the push for things like gay marriage in Europe certainly fits the bill- using THEIR own logic and claims. RECAP from earlier thread:
Origin is not important per se since homosexual practice can occur anywhere. The key is how important was it in the society, and what long-term religious/cultural sanction or prestige did it have? The artwork of Egypt for example shows very little homosexual activity, compared to the artwork of the Middle East, but Egypt was not immune, and same-sex relationships occured there as well, just as it has around the world. Prominence and prestige are factors to look at.
Some argue that the Indo-EUropeans were more prominent practitioners, and even their gods and heroes show a taste for homosexuality. Middle Easterners also show a taste. According to researchers like Bruce Gerig:
Anal intercourse was freely pictured in figurative art in the ancient cities of Uruk, Assur, Babylon, and Susa from the 3rd millennium B.C. on – and images show that it was practiced as part of religious ritual. The Summa alu, a manual used to predict the future, sought to do this in some cases on the basis of sexual acts, five of which are homosexual.
Middle Eastern religion lent sanction to homosexuality. The gods of Mesopotamia for example create a male companion for Gilgamesh, the epic hero, a demigod, two thirds non-human. The male companion is named Enkidu, a wild, hairy man with “long tresses like those of a woman.” They have a long sexual relationship. In later legend, the goddess Ishtar, sees Gilgamesh wash his hair and let it down and desires him, but he refuses the goddess, preferring the male. Cult prostitution, involving heterosexual and homosexual acts, was found throughout ancient Near East history. The goddess Ishtar also had transvestites, etc tend to her worship rituals.
Also according to GErig- Middle Easterners had few qualms. UNlike the Egyptians, deities and gods were expected to partake, and had numerous homosexual priests and servitors as a routine, sanctioned practice in honor of the god or goddess
"Inanna/Ishtar was called a ‘hierodule’ (a divine sacred ‘prostitute’); and many male prostitutes, homosexual and transvestite, served her. Making love was a natural activity that should not be demeaned, they believed; and it could be practiced as one pleased as long as no third party was harmed or a prohibition was broken (such as the banning of sexual activity on certain days, and some women were reserved for the gods).28 In fact, William Naphy notes that a striking feature of the ancient Near East was “how few cultures seem to have any significant ‘moral’ concern about same-sex activities." --Gerig
Overall, the Egyptians seem more conservative than either the Greeks or "Middle Easterners" in these matters. Initiatory pederasty is not found in Egypt, as in GReece. As Gerig also writes- quote:
"Dominic Montserrat notes, most references from Egypt of the Pharaohs view homosexual acts as morally negative (non-reproductive), socially dangerous (like adultery), or physically violent (about conquest).. Parkinson notes that certainly “same-gender sexual acts, such as sodomy, took place in ancient Egypt” – and some individuals, then as now, probably had a greater tendency to this desire and these acts than others.74 However, for a man to abandon his “proper gender role” and allow himself to be sodomized was looked upon as a sign of weakness and disgrace, and the act of penetration was generally looked upon as one of power and conquest. We do not find “initiatory pederasty” (e.g. as in Greece), .. Vern Bullough notes that the mark of shame heaped upon the passive same-sex partner can also be seen in the statement made about Shu and Tefnet, two other gods, that “their abomination is for the hand of god to fall on them, and for the shade of the god to abuse them sexually. His seed shall not enter into them.” " --Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt, Bruce Gerig, -===============================================
1-- The Greeks institutionalized homosexual practices more, as opposed to mere tolerance of outliers. For example, the mighty Spartans institutionalized it as an integral part of their military training. Along long with the Spartans the famous 'Sacred Band" of Thebes was made of up 300 men joined in homosexual pairs- sleeping together and fighting together.
As regards the Spartans and others:
"..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the institution of institutionalized pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover."
--From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, 2003.pg 69-70
1A-- The Greek institutionalization of homosexual activity was heavily focused on pederasty:
In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23,
various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia. quote:
".. the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised."
2-- The Greeks embraced homosexuality and it also appears frequently among their major gods, as part of the package, without any apparent moral censure. It was simply accepted that the major gods would get in their gay action.
For example, Mighty Poseidon took Pelops, the son of Tantalus, to Mt. Olympus as his paramour. Hermes, the Greek messenger and trickster often known as the “cunning deceiver was a lover of both men and women. Hermes had several sons including Pan, the horned satyr who loved both men and women (giving birth to the English word “pansexual”). Romans gave Hermes the name of Mercury, and both traditions considered him to have invented masturbation.
Apollo enjoyed male on male activity, tragically killing Hyacinth, his beloved male lad, in a discus-throwing accident.
Mighty Zeus was no shirker at the rear, as his relationship with human male Ganymede reveals. Ever generous, Zeus gave Ganymede’s father a golden grapevine and/or a pair of horses in exchange for his son.
3-- The Greeks seem to have embraced homosexual activity widely although with certain qualifications, such as disapproval of male prostitutes outside certain areas, etc etc.
FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
"One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
---------
According to researchers Blumfield and Raymond who have written several books on homosexuality, the Greeks embraced the practice in many aspects of life, including in their militaries: --(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179)
"It was not unusual for men to comment on the attractiveness of other men, or for them to express affection for one another. At least part of the reason for this fascination with physical attractiveness and sex is that the Greeks had developed into a culture that had a great deal of leisure time. They were not required to work constantly in order to survive. Blumenfeld and Raymond wrote: “Similarly, the Greek attitude toward sex was, for the most part, value-neutral. …And, though exclusive homosexuality was probably discouraged as a threat to the family, it was widely tolerated both for older men who had children and for younger men prior to marriage.” (Blumenfeld and Raymond 1988, 155)
The Greek military attitude toward homosexuality was that it brought a sense of comradeship. It was often believed that a person would fight harder to protect his unit if that unit included a lover or lovers. This unique form of male bonding is attributed by some to the greatness of the Greek military might. In spite of this encouragement of homosexual practices, the picture is different for those who were exclusively passive at anal sex. They were believed to be polluted, and to have become like women. Therefore, they were expelled from military service as untrustworthy.
Greek society only negatively defined homosexual activity when it was exclusive or related to prostitution by a citizen. In nearly every other instance, homosexual conduct was considered acceptable and practical. It was simply a way of enjoying the beauty and awesomeness of the male bodies that they revered so highly.
The attitude toward the family and education could have also played a role in the attitude toward homosexuality. The family was considered the basis for reproduction. Women were restricted in their sexual activity because they were needed in order to bear children. Men could have sex with either women or men, so long as they met their societal obligation to reproduce. This is probably why exclusive anal sex was prohibited. Catamites could not bear children for their partners.
Education was the responsibility of the teachers and philosophers. Girls were excluded from the education system that was designed to teach boys how to be men. The student was expected to respect and admire his teacher. The teacher was expected to gain the devotion and affection of his student. Therefore, homosexual conduct between a teacher and student was considered a valuable part of the education process. The family, on the other hand, was simply needed for procreation.
During the republic period, Cicero declared without challenge that there is nothing illegal about a man taking another to the country in order to enjoy his erotic sensual pleasures. Although one could easily have sex with his wife at home, a man in the baths, a prostitute in the brothel, and a slave in a dark corner, he would have only been criticized if he were not able to keep everything in its place."
--(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179) ------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Northern Europeans show extensive homosexual activity stretching back to ancient times as scholars note. QUOTE:
"The fourth-century A.D. Roman writer Ammianus Marcellinus described homosexual relationships between youth and adult warriors among the Taifali, a Germanic tribe related to the Goths.. Marcellinus became familiar with the Taifali when he was posted as a soldier in the region. Their youth, Marcellinus write, remained in these homosexual relationships until they became adults and had killed a boar or bear, a typical initiatory ordeal. Similar homosexual customs were described by the Roman historian Procopius in the sixth century A.D. among another German tribe, the Heruli.. homosexuality in the form of institutionalized pederasty of the sort described by Ammianis Marcellinus and Procopius is understood to have been the rule within the Germanic warrior societies.
Remarkably similar societies of unmarried warriors existed in Norse and Celtic society. The members of the Norse warrior societies also dedicated themselves to their god, Odin, dressed likewise in skins of wolves or bears and were said to fight with the furor f one possessed of the spirits of those animals.. Like the Germanic peoples, Celtic society was ruled by a warrior aristocracy supported by a farming peasantry.. While references by classical writers to homosexual relationship between Celtic warriors and youth are not detailed enough to be able to establish an initiatory construct, the pederastic relations that they described would almost certainly have occurred within the fianna, the principal social venue of the Celtic warriors. Indeed, given the close similarity of Celtic and Germanic tribal customs, and the well documented esteem of the Celts for male homosexuality, it would have been odd if the Celts did not practice a similar type of initiatory homosexuality.
The ancient writers leave no doubt as to the Celtic warriors; enthusiasm for homosexuality in general. According to Aristotle, the Celts held homosexuality in high esteem and publicly honored homosexual relations. Diodorus writes that despite the charm of Celtic women, the Celtic men: "long instead for the embrace of one of their own sex, lying on animal skins and tumbling around with a lover on either side. It is particularly surprising that they attach no value to either dignity or decency, offering their bodies to each other without further ado. This was not regarded as at all harmful: on the contrary, if they were rejected in their approaches, they felt insulted." Celtic youth evidently shared the attitudes of their elders. The Greek writer Strabo, described the young Celts of Gaul as "shamelessly generous with their boyish charms."
"..The lack if sexual inhibitions that the Celtic warriors displayed towards each other amid such an atmosphere of masculine eroticism suggests that homosexuality was not limited to pederastic relations, and that love between comrades was also a part of Celtic warrior life. In fact, it is warriors, not youth, whom Diodorus describes as "offering their bodies to each other without further ado." Such a relationship between warrior peers even appears in an Irish Celtic saga of the late first millennium." [ENDQUOTE] --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland: pp 120-131
------------------------------------
MORE ON THE GREEKS In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role.
In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role, as it did among other Indo-Europeans . QUOTE: "While little is known of the sexual practices of the Kassites, Hyksos or Aryans, that is not the case with the Greeks. The extent of the prevalence and social importance of homosexual behavior among the ancient Greeks is so thoroughly documented that it is possible to get a clear picture not only of the character of homosexual relationships in Greeks society, but the important role homosexuality played in that society.. the fragmentary glimpses we have of homosexual behavior among the other Indo-European peoples can be recognized as revealing a unified pattern of sexual customs and beliefs that seems to have prevailed among all the Indo-European ancestors of modern Europeans." --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland:
Pedophilia and homosexuality was common among the Spartans. Wives and male lovers were shared between Spartan men. Pederasty or use of youth for homosexual purposes was well established among the Spartans, Greeks and Cretans.
[quotes from various scholars:] "..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the instutionalization of pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover.. Punishment for various infractions such as suffering silently under discipline was sometimes made on the youth's older lover, for having failed to educate his beloved properly." --From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, Overlook Press, 2003.pg 69-70
"Aspects of Spartan society conduced less to heterosexuality than to homosexuality. In his Laws, Plato wrote that homosexuality resulted from the (male) dining groups and from male nudity in gymnasia. Records of Sparta from the classical period seem to refer to homosexual boyfriends at least as often as to wives. particularly revealing, are some assertions by Xenophon on this subject." --From: Sparta By Michael Whitby. 2002. Taylor and Francis: p. 93
"Sparta too institutionalized homosexual relations between mature men and adolescent boys, as well as between adult women and girls.. many aspects of Spartan homosexuality and marriage customs point to tribal origins. Participation was mandatory for all youth of good character. There were ordeals- a common feature of tribal initiation.. Even after marriage, men lived in men's houses, not with their wives. Wives and male lovers were shared with age-mates." ---From: The construction of homosexuality. David F. Greenberg. University of Chicago Press. 1990. p.107 --------------------------
Both homosexuality and pedophilia were institutionalized among the Greeks per scholars: [quotes from various scholars:] FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "In short, I have no doubt that the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised." In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23, various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia.".
Some historian argue that Greek homosexual activity had ritual significance in the form of the semen, being an agent representing martial excellence or prowess, imparted to the receiving male in the process of sodomy. The venue of the gymnasium also played a part. quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "Next there is the point insisted upon by Plato's Athenian Laws (1.636b; cg. Theaer. 162b, 169ab), the role played by the gymnasia as hotbeds of homosexuality. The Spartans put a premium on gymnastic exercise, and if Thucydides (1.6.5) is to be believed, it was they who invented the customs of exercising stark naked and rubbing down with olive oil. In Sparta therefore the cult of the nude male body is likely to have been pushed to the extremes, as it is known to have been in other less gymnastic Greek cities.. None of these conditions favoring homosexuality is wholly peculiar to Spartan society, but their presence in combination suggests that the integration of institutionalised pederasty into the Agoge, whenever precisely it occurred, will at any rate, not have been awkward." pg 27
Yet others argue that the ties created by pederasty extended to the networks of influence and governance. "Pederasty, in other words, could have acted at Spartan in the age of Xenophon, as it certainly did in fourth-century Crete, as a means of recruiting the political elite," ---------------
Young females were also used in Spartan society as part of homosexual relations. Quote: "Plutarch relates that in Sparta, the noble women loved the girls. Also the academic philosopher Hagnon states: "Among the Spartans it was customary (viz for adult women) to have intercourse with girls before their marriage, as one did with boys." pg 292
Homosexuality was commonly recognized and accepted in Greece, and suggest a common pattern among Indo-European peoples. As one historian notes: "One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
Some ancient Greek scholars held that the Persians learned homosexuality from the Greeks ".. we pass straight on to the Persians. Our sources are divided as to whether they practiced pederasty or not. The latter view will be the more probably one, since the Zoroastrian writings tome and again strongly forbade pederasty. It is perhaps indicative for this attitude that Agesilaos, although strongly in love with the son of high-ranking Persian, refrains from any physical contact. On the other hand, the son of Pharnabazus is enamoured of a Greek boy, and the recurrence of the prohibitions of pederasty suggests that the Persians did not succeed in stopping the practice. Such discrepancy between theory and practice could elucidate the remark of Herodotus that the Persians learned pederasty from the Greeks." pg 282
Quotes from: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson-1992 -
Historian Charles Freeman's "The Greek Achievement" (1999) holds that homosexuality had an influential place in some Greek institutions. According to Freeman: [quote] ".. "The symposia provided the arena for much of this sexual activity. These were highly ritualized affairs whose origins lay in the banqueting halls of aristocratic warriors. The men were garlanded and reclined one or two to a couch around a central table.. there is little evidence that symposia were normally used to discuss politics. Rather the opposite; the longest conversation in Plato's Symposium is about the nature of homosexual love." (Freeman: pg 299, pg 283-304)
Other writers find similar prominence in Athens: "Male homosexuality was also a prominent feature of Classical Athens. It was widely practiced and tolerated. Athenian law disenfranchised a citizen who had prostituted his body to another male, but nothing was done to males who engaged in homosexual love with male prostitutes or other adult males for love or pleasure. The law did not eliminate male prostitution but ensured that male prostitutes would be foreigners, not Athenian citizens." -- Western Civilization: To 1500, Volume 1. Jackson J. Spielvogel. 2009. Cenage.
"The second century preacher Clement of Alexandria used divine pederasty as an indictment of Greek religion:
"For your gods did not abstain even from boys. One loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymedes. These are the gods your wives are to worship!" --^ Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2.28P
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The first Greek were the Black Minoan, the Black Pelasgian and the black Carian. According to Djehuti homosexuality started in Greece before the migration of white people there. Black people created Greek and Roman civilizations. The Roman were also homosexual. Emperor Hadrian had a popular male boyfriend. Classical Black European civilization were great but they had bad behavior.
The black Egyptian civilization was the most moral civilization on earth because they used the 42 commandments of Maat in their life and in their law.
posted
No Djehuti said no such thing. Your trolling isn't fooling anyone..
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Indeed, Mena is obviously mistaken since I said no such thing! I never said homosexuality began in Greece as homosexuality like all sexuality and sexual behavior is a human condition that spans all cultures. Homosexuality may be documented the earliest in Greece, but it certainly didn't start there! Also, I don't subscribe to Clyde Winter's silly theory that the original peoples of Greece and Rome were black! There is evidence of black presence or influence in neolithic Greece, but that's a different story from identifying the Pelasgians and other pre-Hellenes as "black". So I'm not answering any more nonsense.
Now to a more intelligent poster...
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: No people on earth are exempt from homosexuality, as long noted on ES including various in Africa. Europeans as well- with the Greeks lionizing such practices as part of a "higher" cultural undertaking. And today, the homosexual marriage push is strongest in European or European-derived countries. Few other countries are pushing for the redefinition of the millennia old marriage bond in this way.
That's the difference between Europe and a lot of other places. Treating homosexual unions the same as traditional male-female marriages is certainly novel in human experience. There were mimic marriages to be sure among various peoples, but all hold for the primacy of the male-female union, particularly in view of the procreation/rearing of children. Mimicry might be there in various places, but they don't or consider homosexual unions equal to male-female unions. Assorted "biodiversity" types hold European evolution was accelerated due to a penchant for novel human experiences. If so, then the push for things like gay marriage in Europe certainly fits the bill- using THEIR own logic and claims.
Actually, I should point out that until recently there has always been a distinction between the usual marriage between male & female and gay unions. Yes marriage-like unions between members of the same sex has been a custom among various cultures but these have always been considered inferior to and not as significant as true heterosexual marriages. The difference and the very significance lies in the fact that the latter creates families. Heterosexual unions are considered 'true' marriages because the male and female's union actually brings forth children. Of course gay unions can't but even if such gay couples were to adopt children to raise, it is not the same as reproducing children themselves. And what about heterosexual couples who can't reproduce due to infertility? They can adopt children as well, but their raising of children is still better than homosexual parentage because they have a balance of both sexes instead of just one. Thus, heterosexual unions have always been more ideal that homosexual unions in terms of institutions in society.
Also, as I stated earlier the vast majority of traditional homosexual marriages practiced in cultures throughout the world were temporary and not considered permanent or 'true' marriages for the following reasons I provided above as well as the fact that the vast majority of men (and in a few instances women) that participated in these rituals were not strict homosexuals but technically bisexual! Strict homosexuals who have no sexual interest in the other sex are still a very small percentage of any population, and even then despite their sexuality it was considered a duty for both men and women alike to get married and start families. Anthropologists have noted that in some cultures there are ways strict homosexuals may 'escape' this duty to marry and start families. (Strictly) gay men and lesbians for example, may take up priestly or shamanic type roles that allow them to escape the cultural norms of their society.
Some may argue that the institute of marriage itself is a construct of patriarchal societies. Yet those folks ignore marriage traditions of matriarchal societies like the urivocular type marriage wherein the husband moves into his wife's or in-laws' household and is subject to their authority or even the older more ancient avuncular or 'walking-marriage' which is hardly a marriage at all but where men visit women during their courtships which are only temporary. In both cases once children are born they are expected to be raised by both sexes. In the urivocular custom children are raised by their fathers and mothers while in the avuncular form their mothers and maternal uncles. So you see the ideal is for children to be raised by both sexes.
The modern day notion of gay marriage is different from the ancient forms of the custom. I have no problem with gays marrying one another or even adopting children, though it's still inferior to heterosexual marriage NOT because gays themselves are inferior to heterosexuals but that their unions are inferior for the reasons I stated. Personally I think children are brought up better in households with two gay parents than in households with single (heterosexual) parents and statistically this holds true. However children are brought up even better in households by heterosexual parents for the reason that they have both sexes as models to learn from-- a mother and a father-- instead of two moms and two dads.
It's rather unfortunate, but despite all the talk of "the gay agenda", I really do believe there is an agenda among some gays that goes beyond eliminating hatred against them or retaining their basic rights. There are just some gays who think these causes just aren't "good enough" but want to be treated the same as heterosexuals and the main agenda is to have homosexual marriage to have the same status and be treated the same as heterosexual marriage. They refuse to accept the reality that it ain't happening for the obvious reasons I just explained.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: NA pansexuality? It's as old as the rock art.
And which rock art are you referring to exactly??
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
The gay agenda never ceases. from what I understand it is an vulgar, filthy and "sinful" act in ancient and modern African society. Supra-sahara and south Sahara
Yet the sources I cited at least in the Supra-Saharan region suggest the opposite-- that a male homosexual tradition existed and still survives-- among Berber groups. Are you suggesting that gay foreigners from say, Europe, made it up and/or started the tradition in North Africa?? And what of Sub-Saharans groups like the Azande and several others who have similar traditions??
One thinks you may be trying to speak of some 'moral superiority' among Africans ironically when the converse was done by most white Westerners in the past as it is done by some today. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, I should point out that until recently there has always been a distinction between the usual marriage between male & female and gay unions. Yes marriage-like unions between members of the same sex has been a custom among various cultures but these have always been considered inferior to and not as significant as true heterosexual marriages. The difference and the very significance lies in the fact that the latter creates families. Heterosexual unions are considered 'true' marriages because the male and female's union actually brings forth children. Of course gay unions can't but even if such gay couples were to adopt children to raise, it is not the same as reproducing children themselves. And what about heterosexual couples who can't reproduce due to infertility? They can adopt children as well, but their raising of children is still better than homosexual parentage because they have a balance of both sexes instead of just one. Thus, heterosexual unions have always been more ideal that homosexual unions in terms of institutions in society.
Also, as I stated earlier the vast majority of traditional homosexual marriages practiced in cultures throughout the world were temporary and not considered permanent or 'true' marriages for the following reasons I provided above as well as the fact that the vast majority of men (and in a few instances women) that participated in these rituals were not strict homosexuals but technically bisexual! Strict homosexuals who have no sexual interest in the other sex are still a very small percentage of any population, and even then despite their sexuality it was considered a duty for both men and women alike to get married and start families. Anthropologists have noted that in some cultures there are ways strict homosexuals may 'escape' this duty to marry and start families. (Strictly) gay men and lesbians for example, may take up priestly or shamanic type roles that allow them to escape the cultural norms of their society.
Some may argue that the institute of marriage itself is a construct of patriarchal societies. Yet those folks ignore marriage traditions of matriarchal societies like the urivocular type marriage wherein the husband moves into his wife's or in-laws' household and is subject to their authority or even the older more ancient avuncular or 'walking-marriage' which is hardly a marriage at all but where men visit women during their courtships which are only temporary. In both cases once children are born they are expected to be raised by both sexes. In the urivocular custom children are raised by their fathers and mothers while in the avuncular form their mothers and maternal uncles. So you see the ideal is for children to be raised by both sexes.
The modern day notion of gay marriage is different from the ancient forms of the custom. I have no problem with gays marrying one another or even adopting children, though it's still inferior to heterosexual marriage NOT because gays themselves are inferior to heterosexuals but that their unions are inferior for the reasons I stated. Personally I think children are brought up better in households with two gay parents than in households with single (heterosexual) parents and statistically this holds true. However children are brought up even better in households by heterosexual parents for the reason that they have both sexes as models to learn from-- a mother and a father-- instead of two moms and two dads.
It's rather unfortunate, but despite all the talk of "the gay agenda", I really do believe there is an agenda among some gays that goes beyond eliminating hatred against them or retaining their basic rights. There are just some gays who think these causes just aren't "good enough" but want to be treated the same as heterosexuals and the main agenda is to have homosexual marriage to have the same status and be treated the same as heterosexual marriage. They refuse to accept the reality that it ain't happening for the obvious reasons I just explained.
^Excellent summary.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
NA pansexuality? It's as old as the rock art.
And which rock art are you referring to exactly??
The usual Tassili related Saharan rock art books opt out of posting the pornographic pieces like stringy haired female human with male canine sex, male human with male canine fellatio, and multi male penii poised at a solo female face and a therianthrope ejaculating into the eye of a rhino.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Or the fact that they probably never had much Berber ancestry to begin with, just like the Nile Valley dynastic Egyptians. I tend to think the same thing that happened to the el-Hayez oasis, happened to Siwa.
I first heard of Siwan man-boy marriages and the alledged ease of scoring Siwan kitty decades ago. I watched a travelogue recently saying in the 13th century the Berber population of Siwa was reduced to 80 individuals.
If these things are true -- female hospitality and the near extermination bottleneck -- I find them so interesting in light of Siwa Oasis population genetics and phenotypes.
(link) Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
That should the Hassan et al paper on Sudan. Maybe the Hausa women are also promiscuous. Lol. P25 Hausa - 25% P25 Siwa - 25% J2 Hausa - 10% J2 Siwa _ 10% M78 Hausa - 20% M78 Siwa - 10%
Homosexuality my azzz It is an old population that's all. The Nile Valley was a barrier per Underhill et al(?)
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: of Siwa was reduced to 80 individuals.
If these things are true -- female hospitality and the near extermination bottleneck -- I find them so interesting in light of Siwa Oasis population genetics and phenotypes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
(link) 
Printer-friendly view of this topic