posted
So far I have come across absolutely ZERO evidence to back up the claim that The Nubians Migrated into Egypt and Sudan during Diocletian’s Reign. THEY ARE AN INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN PEOPLE. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian People by the very Arab Republic that classifies them as Nubian. The term Nubian is intended to strip them of THEIR INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN HERITAGE because Egyptologists use that term as a racial catchphrase for all People south of Egypt. So STOP CALLING THEM NUBIANS WHEN THEY ARE EGYPTIANS. I admit I have been corrected by a few other Posters about how the term Nubt just referenced Gold and not a people. I am a student and I’m still learning. Today’s Nubians have always lived in Southern Egypt. There is ZERO evidence that they migrated from anywhere else. THEY ARE THE PRE-DYNASTIC PEOPLE!. Now of course The Cushitic speakers were a big part of Ancient Egypt’s Population But they are no longer present in Egypt. The Nubians are the remaining Black Egyptians Period. CASE CLOSED!
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya
So this is how you are going to be posting you make a new topic each time a new idea pops into your head, contradicting yourself on a daily basis ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: So far I have come across absolutely ZERO evidence to back up the claim that The Nubians Migrated from Libya into Egypt and Sudan during Diocletian’s Reign. THEY ARE AN INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN PEOPLE. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian People by the very Arab Republic that classifies them as Nubian. The term Nubian is intended to strip them of THEIR INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN HERITAGE because Egyptologists use that term as a racial catchphrase for all People south of Egypt. So STOP CALLING THEM NUBIANS WHEN THEY ARE EGYPTIANS. I admit I have been corrected by a few other Posters about how the term Nubt just referenced Gold and not a people. I am a student and I’m still learning. Today’s Nubians have always lived in Southern Egypt. There is ZERO evidence that they migrated from anywhere else. THEY ARE THE PRE-DYNASTIC PEOPLE!. Now of course The Cushitic speakers were a big part of Ancient Egypt’s Population But they are no longer present in Egypt. The Nubians are the remaining Black Egyptians Period. CASE CLOSED!
quote: Figure 1: Images of North African prehistoric rock and cave paintings. From (a, b) Swimmer’s Cave (Wadi Sura, southern Egypt), (c) the Ennedi massif (northeastern Chad) and (d) Zolat el Hammad, Wadi Howar (northern Sudan).
Evidence for the African Humid Period
The Early Holocene AHP is one of the most thoroughly documented and well-dated climate change events in the geologic record, and the number and diversity of paleoclimate records is remarkable (COHMAP Members, 1988; deMenocal et al., 2000; Gasse, 2000; Hoelzmann et al., 1998; Jolly, 1998; Kroepelin, 2008; Kuper and Kröpelin, 2006). Through these terrestrial and marine records we can document both the timing and extent of the humid interval.
Geological evidence for past lake basins in the Sahara are commonly found near interdune depressions and other low-lying regions, where ancient lake bed sediment outcrops and shoreline deposits are exposed. Most of the early Holocene paleolakes were small, but numerous and widespread (Figure 2b). Some lake basins in North Africa were exceptionally large, as large as the Caspian Sea today. These so-called megalakes occurred in the North (Megalake Fezzan, Libya), South (Megalake Chad, Chad/Niger/Nigeria), West (Chotts Megalakes, Algeria) and East (Megalakes Turkana and Kenya) (Drake and Bristow, 2006). Based on their stratigraphic records, these must have been permanent, open-basin lakes, indicating that annual moisture supply exceeded evaporation for many millennia during the AHP, even in the driest regions of the modern-day Sahara.
A continent-wide compilation of past lake-level reconstructions (the Oxford Lake Level Database (OLLD) (COHMAP Members, 1988; Street-Perrott et al., 1989)) updated with lake-level reconstructions published in the last twenty years (Tierney et al., 2011) chronicles the changes in lake levels that occurred across Africa as a result of the African Humid Period (Figure 2b). This database classifies lakes as "low" (lake is within 0–15% of its potential volume or dry), "intermediate" (lake is within 15–70% of its potential volume) or "high" (lake is within 70–100% of its potential volume or overflowing) every 1000 years during the late-glacial period and the Holocene. The difference in lake levels at 9000 years — the height of the African Humid Period — relative to the conditions today shows that the extent of the AHP across the continent was vast — extending from the far northern Sahara to as far south as 10˚S in East Africa (Figure 3).
Paleoclimate and archaeological evidence tells us that, 11,000-5,000 years ago, the Earth's slow orbital 'wobble' transformed today's Sahara desert to a land covered with vegetation and lakes.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya
So this is how you are going to be posting you make a new topic each time a new idea pops into your head, contradicting yourself on a daily basis ?
If you read the post you would see that I admit that I am a student and I am constantly learning. As I continue to do research I am coming to the conclusion That today’s Nubians have always been in Egypt and have no foreign origin. There is ZERO evidence that they migrated from Libya to Egypt during Diocletian’s reign. Now that I have come to the conclusion that The Nubians have no Libyan origins and have always been Egyptians would you rather me to continue to claim that they are of Libyan origin when there is no evidence that they did?
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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THE NUBIANS ARE INDIGENOUS TO EGYPT AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE. I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO PROVE ME WRONG!
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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The Nubians live exactly where Ta-Seti was located. They are responsible for establishing Egypt’s first nome. Even the Arab republic recognizes them as Indigenous. The Diocletian claim is Pseudo. If they came from Libya then why aren’t there any Nubians in Libya?. This is because they have always been I. Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Smirks, Try to do some objective research without tendencies to formulate results that validate your own personal feel good biased beliefs.
Now, here's an actual validated research about the Nubians of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
Hope this helps you to become an objective reseacher and dismiss your biased views!
quote: Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa The Nubians inhabit the Nile valley in the arid desert of northern Sudan and speak Eastern Sudanic languages of the Nilo-Saharan linguistic family that are close to the languages spoken by Nilotic populations (Table 1, Fig 1A). The Nubian populations have a long history in the region, dating back to dynastic Egypt [5]. They showed little genetic differentiation among individuals and groups, with a maximum (across all pairwise comparisons) pairwise FST (Weir and Cockerham’s estimator) of 0.004513 between the Mahas and the Halfawieen (Fig 1B, S7A Fig). The FST values to the surrounding Arabic and Beja populations were also low, which hints at gene-flow or shared ancestry with the neighboring populations. Even though the Nubians and the Nilotes are linguistically closer to each other than to the Afro-Asiatic groups, the Nubians showed the greatest genetic differentiation (FST between 0.02 and 0.04) to the Nilotes (Fig 1, S7A Fig). To investigate whether this signal of genetic differentiation is driven by the Eurasian admixture into the Nubians (as seen in Fig 2), we created pseudo-‘unadmixed’ (in terms of not having Eurasian admixture) allele frequencies (see SI) and calculated Wright’s FST, which showed that an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig). The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig). Interestingly, the Nubians showed the highest level of allelic richness, number of private alleles and shared private alleles (ADZE, between Danagla and Halfawieen, S12 Fig) among all Sudanese and South Sudanese groups. This observation together with a smaller total length of runs of homozygosity, between lengths of 0.5–1 kilobases, points to substantial admixture in Nubians (Fig 4). Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans (Fig 2).
posted
Keep reading, and try to learn the real truth and not just Afrocentric Fantasy!
quote: West-Eurasian migration from the north All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D [9, 35].
quote: Conclusion We have shown that there has been long-term migration into Sudan, moving in a southward direction possibly along the Nile and the Blue Nile. From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan. Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].
The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.
posted
Again, what does all this mean in the larger scheme of things?
The Nubians of today are basically "Sudanese People", who are highly admixed with Eurasian, Egyptian, and Arabian. Nubians may speak "Nilotic Languages", like their unmixed South and West Sudanese neighbors, but their genetic profile is highly admixed with the above groups (Eurasian DNA).
So basically, they did not share a language with the Ancient Egyptians, but they've mixed with them genetically over the years and in more recent years with other invaders, like Middle Easterners, Arabs, and even Europeans.
So basically, many of them look dark, but their genetic makeup is highly infused with Non-African components.
Thus their connection to Egypt, Egyptians, Modern and Ancient is mostly through this genetic infusion!
Posts: 1061 | From: Laos | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Keep reading, and try to learn the real truth and not just Afrocentric Fantasy!
quote: West-Eurasian migration from the north All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D [9, 35].
Please cite the archaeological evidence for the Eurasian migration into Nile Valley. What is the date for this migration?
DNA has no relevance without archaeological evidence to back it up.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Again, what does all this mean in the larger scheme of things?
The Nubians of today are basically "Sudanese People", who are highly admixed with Eurasian, Egyptian, and Arabian. Nubians may speak "Nilotic Languages", like their unmixed South and West Sudanese neighbors, but their genetic profile is highly admixed with the above groups (Eurasian DNA).
So basically, they did not share a language with the Ancient Egyptians, but they've mixed with them genetically over the years and in more recent years with other invaders, like Middle Easterners, Arabs, and even Europeans.
So basically, many of them look dark, but their genetic makeup is highly infused with Non-African components.
Thus their connection to Egypt, Egyptians, Modern and Ancient is mostly through this genetic infusion!
Stop making stuff up. The so-called Eurasian genes were already existing in Egypt before The Europeans and Turks entered Egypt.
.
First of all, Afro-American scholars have accepted that the Egyptians were Black/African people for the past 200 years, i.e., Carter G. Woodson, W.E.B. DuBois, and J.A. Rogers, and the Senegalese scholar Anta Diop ; but, Negro Apologist : Gates, Kittles and etc, spend their time parroting the status quo line that the Egyptians were a mixed race. This same group attempt to make it appear that the Fulani, Somalis and Ethiopians are black skinned whites, because of their facial features. This is stupid, because man originated in Africa, so the physical features of these populations are African features.
The article by Schuenemann et al, 2017 on the Abusir mummies is basically a discussion of the data that support a Greco-Roman origin for Egypt. But the data on the mummies dating between 992-749 BC, can offers us keen insight into haplogroups carried by Egyptians during this time.
The genomic data from this period is important because the people of Abusir at this time would have been primarily Egyptian. As a result, the mtDNA carried by the Egyptians confirms the reality that the so-called Eurasian haplogroups are nothing more than African haplogroups.
In Schuenemann et al, 2017, there were 100 mummies in the study. A total of 27 mummies were dated between 992-749BC. In Figure 1, you can see the clades carried by these Egyptians. Below are the frequencies of the haplogroups among Egyptians at this time:
Haplogroup Frequency U 18.5 T 22.2 J 18.5 X 0.0675 M1a 0.0675 H 0.0675 I 0.0675 HV 0.037 RO 0.037 K 0.037 N 0.037
The presence of these haplogroups among the Abusir population shows that the U,T, and J clades had a high frequency among the Egyptians before Eurasians entered the region, and that many of the so called Middle East clades were already present in Egypt before the Greco-Romans, Turks and etc. ruled Egypt.
In conclusion, the Abusir article provides more data on the African origin of Eurasian mtDNA. The Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people were Kushites.
Reference:
Schuenemann et al., Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods, Nature Communications 8, Article number: 15694 (2017), doi:10.1038/ncomms15694
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder,Carina M. Schlebusch,Torsten Günther,Hiba Babiker,Hisham Y. Hassan,Mattias Jakobsson
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: THE NUBIANS ARE INDIGENOUS TO EGYPT AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE. I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO PROVE ME WRONG!
Smirks,
You're not making much sense!
Are you talking about today's Nubians?
They're basically "Sudanese People" with extensive admixture!
Ancient Nubians were neighbors to the Ancient Egyptians, but they were sometimes friends and other times foes to the Egyptians.
The historical records are very clear, as far as the mixed relationship with the Egyptians.
Posts: 1061 | From: Laos | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Archaeology and history reveal Nubia Most information about ancient Nubia comes from archaeological excavation and from the study of monuments and rock art found there. But the art and writing of Nubians and of peoples contemporary with them also give important evidence. Records of ancient Egypt tell much about the history of Nubia, documenting a long and complex relationship between the two lands. Monuments and texts in the Egyptian language left by the Nubian kings, who became pharaohs of Egypt’s 25th Dynasty around 750 BC, also provide an extensive record. Nubians developed alphabetic writing systems around 200 BC during the Meroitic period. The Meroitic language is still not understood well enough to read more than words and phrases, but much documentation on Meroitic Nubia can be found in the art and literature of Greece and Rome, whose empires touched on the borders of Nubia after 330 BC.
posted
Nubians are Egyptians. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian people. They have always lived at the Southern Egyptian/Sudanese Border. There is no evidence that they came from anywhere else. All you’re doing is showing that they have DNA matching non-African people but that doesn’t change the fact that they have always lived in Southern Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Today’s Nubians are not The Ancient Kushites. The Dinka are. Stop using the term Nubian. It referenced gold not a People.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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You can’t use the term Nubia to refer to Sudan because The Ancient Egyptians never used that term. They called it “KAS” and the name still survives today in The Dinka Language as “KOC” which means People. This is because The Dinka are the Kushites and The Nubians are Egyptians.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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I’ve already stated numerous times that today’s Nubians are not The people of Ancient Meroe. Herodotus deceive the people of Northern Sudan as the tallest people in the world which is a unique characteristic of The Dinka people. This is proof that The Dinka were the people of Northern Sudan while The Nubians were always in Southern Egypt but eventually migrated further South. I recently came to the conclusion that there is no evidence they came from Libya. So I can no longer claim that. The fact the The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt is painfully obvious. I’m not going to keep repeating myself. THE NUBIANS ARE SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS AND THE DINKA/NUER ARE THE ANCIENT KUSHITES. This has been my case since the beginning and I never truly bought The Diocletian claim. The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and I will not say this again because it’s getting old now.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations Nina Hollfelder,Carina M. Schlebusch,Torsten Günther,Hiba Babiker,Hisham Y. Hassan,Mattias Jakobsson
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I’ve already stated numerous times that today’s Nubians are not The people of Ancient Meroe. Herodotus described the people of Northern Sudan as the tallest people in the world which is a unique characteristic of The Dinka people. This is proof that The Dinka were the people of Northern Sudan while The Nubians were always in Southern Egypt but eventually migrated further South. I recently came to the conclusion that there is no evidence they came from Libya. So I can no longer claim that. The fact the The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt is painfully obvious. I’m not going to keep repeating myself. THE NUBIANS ARE SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS AND THE DINKA/NUER ARE THE ANCIENT KUSHITES. This has been my case since the beginning and I never truly bought The Diocletian claim. The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and I will not say this again because it’s getting old now.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Nubians are Egyptians. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian people. They have always lived at the Southern Egyptian/Sudanese Border. There is no evidence that they came from anywhere else. All you’re doing is showing that they have DNA matching non-African people but that doesn’t change the fact that they have always lived in Southern Egypt.
How could the 'Nubians" be the Ancient Egyptians, when the AE themselves described them, traded with them, and fought them, "Nubians"?
You seem to be projecting your own personal preferences on the historical records of the Ancient World!
Posts: 1061 | From: Laos | Registered: Jun 2012
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Once you stop using the term Nubia it will become so obvious that that the people mislabeled Nubian today are Southern Egyptians and have always been. Case closed I’m done with this topic.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Nubians are Egyptians. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian people. They have always lived at the Southern Egyptian/Sudanese Border. There is no evidence that they came from anywhere else. All you’re doing is showing that they have DNA matching non-African people but that doesn’t change the fact that they have always lived in Southern Egypt.
How could the 'Nubians" be the Ancient Egyptians, when the AE themselves described them, traded with them, and fought them, "Nubians"?
You seem to be projecting your own personal preferences on the historical records of the Ancient World!
You are thinking of The Kushites and since I already proved that The Dinka people are The Ancient Kushites Anything The Ancient said about The Kushites does not apply to The Nubians of today because they were NEVER apart of Kush. They were always in Southern Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Nubian and and Kush are not synonymous. Nubia references Gold. Kush represents a people. So if you can’t apply the term Nubian to a people and The Dinka are the original people of Kush and there is no evidence of a Roman era migration from Libya then who are The Nubians of today? SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS. End of story
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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The relationship between the Ancient Egyptians and their Southern neighbors the 'Nubians" is in some ways similar to the United States and Mexico, today and historically.
Please try to keep an open mind, so that you keep your preconceived notions in check:
quote:
The history of the Nubians is closely linked with that of ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt conquered Nubian territory incorporating them into its provinces. The Nubians in turn were to conquer Egypt in its 25th Dynasty. However, relations between the two peoples also show peaceful cultural interchange and cooperation, including mixed marriages.
The Medjay represents the name Ancient Egyptians gave to a region in northern Sudan where an ancient people of Nubia inhabited. They became part of the Ancient Egyptian military as scouts and minor workers. During the Middle Kingdom "Medjay" no longer referred to the district of Medja, but to a tribe or clan of people. It is not known what happened to the district, but, after the First Intermediate Period, it and other districts in Nubia were no longer mentioned in the written record.
Written accounts detail the Medjay as nomadic desert people. Over time they were incorporated into the Egyptian army where that served as garrison troops in Egyptian fortifications in Nubia and patrolled the deserts. This was done in the hopes of preventing their fellow Medjay tribespeople from further attacking Egyptian assets in the region. They were later used during KamoseÕs campaign against the Hyksos and became instrumental in making the Egyptian state into a military power.
By the 18th Dynasty of the New Kingdom the Medjay were an elite paramilitary police force. No longer did the term refer to an ethnic group and over time the new meaning became synonymous with the policing occupation in general. Being an elite police force, the Medjay were often used to protect valuable areas, especially royal and religious complexes. Though they are most notable for their protection of the royal palaces and tombs in Thebes and the surrounding areas, the Medjay were known to have been used throughout Upper and Lower Egypt.
Various pharaohs of Nubian origin are held by some Egyptologists to have played an important part towards the area in different eras of Egyptian history, particularly the 12th Dynasty. These rulers handled matters in typical Egyptian fashion, reflecting the close cultural influences between the two regions.
The XII Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region. As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress and cops at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract.
In the New Kingdom, Nubians and Egyptians were often closely related that some scholars consider them virtually indistinguishable, as the two cultures combined. The result has been described as a wholesale Nubian assimilation into Egyptian society. This assimilation was so complete that it masked all Nubian ethnic identities insofar as archaeological remains are concerned beneath the impenetrable veneer of Egypt's material culture.
In the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled as Pharaohs in their own right, the material culture of Dynasty XXV (about 750-655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian in character. Nubia's entire landscape up to the region of the Third Cataract was dotted with temples indistinguishable in style and decoration from contemporary temples erected in Egypt. The same observation obtains for the smaller number of typically Egyptian tombs in which these elite Nubian princes were interred.
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It's very similar to US and Mexico in many ways, such two groups that share borders, speak different languages, and have had their own great achievements, civilizations, cooperation, and battles for land and resources.
Nubians were AE's conduit into trading with remote parts of inner Africa. They brought gold, and other resources to the Egyptians and reaped profits and favors from the Pharaohs.
As depicted in AE wall murals and art, these gifts from the Nubians were greatly prized by the people of Egypt.
Friends and Foes!
Posts: 1061 | From: Laos | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: So far I have come across absolutely ZERO evidence to back up the claim that The Nubians Migrated from Libya into Egypt and Sudan during Diocletian’s Reign. THEY ARE AN INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN PEOPLE. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian People by the very Arab Republic that classifies them as Nubian. The term Nubian is intended to strip them of THEIR INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN HERITAGE because Egyptologists use that term as a racial catchphrase for all People south of Egypt. So STOP CALLING THEM NUBIANS WHEN THEY ARE EGYPTIANS. I admit I have been corrected by a few other Posters about how the term Nubt just referenced Gold and not a people. I am a student and I’m still learning. Today’s Nubians have always lived in Southern Egypt. There is ZERO evidence that they migrated from anywhere else. THEY ARE THE PRE-DYNASTIC PEOPLE!. Now of course The Cushitic speakers were a big part of Ancient Egypt’s Population But they are no longer present in Egypt. The Nubians are the remaining Black Egyptians Period. CASE CLOSED!
The Nubians who migrated into Egypt during the Roman Empire are ancestors of the Modern Nubians a.k.a. Noba/Nuba peoples who were Nilo-Saharan speaking people! The people living in the area prior were ancient Nubians who likely did NOT speak Nilo-Saharan languages but Afrasian like the Egyptians.
Dude, you seem to be confused and I don't blame you because the terms 'Nubian', 'Ethiopian', and 'Cushite/Kushite' has been tossed around on different regions and peoples in northeast Africa for a long time. I suggest you do research.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Keep reading, and try to learn the real truth and not just Afrocentric Fantasy!
West-Eurasian migration from the north All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by **Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D** [9, 35].
Yes deluded muktaba, follow your own advise and read that the West-Eurasian migration and admixture is associated with the Islamic conquest and has NOTHING to do with ancient Egyptians who were almost equally African prior!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Nubian and and Kush are not synonymous. Nubia references Gold. Kush represents a people. So if you can’t apply the term Nubian to a people and The Dinka are the original people of Kush and there is no evidence of a Roman era migration from Libya then who are The Nubians of today? SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS. End of story
try to make sense
you said:
"Nubia references Gold. Kush represents a people. So if you can’t apply the term Nubian to a people"
and then you said
" who are The Nubians of today? SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS."
I hope you see that doesn't make sense
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Nubia refers to a place or region. The name is based on Nubt meaning golden one or place though the name in Egyptian usage was applied mainly to cities of that name (one in northern Upper Egypt near Naqada and the other in southern Upper Egypt). The Greeks and Romans used Nubia for the lands immediately south of Kmt (ancient Egypt) which today is the southern part of modern Egypt.
Modern Nubian peoples today are Nilo-Saharan speakers who immigrated into the region of Nubia and their name Nubian comes from their actual name Nuba/Noba who entered the region during Roman times and mixed with the ancient Nubians already there.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Nubian and and Kush are not synonymous. Nubia references Gold. Kush represents a people. So if you can’t apply the term Nubian to a people and The Dinka are the original people of Kush and there is no evidence of a Roman era migration from Libya then who are The Nubians of today? SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS. End of story
try to make sense
you said:
"Nubia references Gold. Kush represents a people. So if you can’t apply the term Nubian to a people"
and then you said
" who are The Nubians of today? SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS."
I hope you see that doesn't make sense
Read it again. I didn't contradict myself. I only used the word Nubian again to refer to those people because that's what they are called today. I still understand that Nub referenced gold and it was neither an ethnic nor geographic term.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: So far I have come across absolutely ZERO evidence to back up the claim that The Nubians Migrated from Libya into Egypt and Sudan during Diocletian’s Reign. THEY ARE AN INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN PEOPLE. They are recognized as an Indigenous Egyptian People by the very Arab Republic that classifies them as Nubian. The term Nubian is intended to strip them of THEIR INDIGENOUS EGYPTIAN HERITAGE because Egyptologists use that term as a racial catchphrase for all People south of Egypt. So STOP CALLING THEM NUBIANS WHEN THEY ARE EGYPTIANS. I admit I have been corrected by a few other Posters about how the term Nubt just referenced Gold and not a people. I am a student and I’m still learning. Today’s Nubians have always lived in Southern Egypt. There is ZERO evidence that they migrated from anywhere else. THEY ARE THE PRE-DYNASTIC PEOPLE!. Now of course The Cushitic speakers were a big part of Ancient Egypt’s Population But they are no longer present in Egypt. The Nubians are the remaining Black Egyptians Period. CASE CLOSED!
The Nubians who migrated into Egypt during the Roman Empire are ancestors of the Modern Nubians a.k.a. Noba/Nuba peoples who were Nilo-Saharan speaking people! The people living in the area prior were ancient Nubians who likely did NOT speak Nilo-Saharan languages but Afrasian like the Egyptians.
Dude, you seem to be confused and I don't blame you because the terms 'Nubian', 'Ethiopian', and 'Cushite/Kushite' has been tossed around on different regions and peoples in northeast Africa for a long time. I suggest you do research.
The Nubians of Southern Egypt are Indigenous. Their homeland is in Southern Egypt. They were even given a ''right to return'' by The Egyptian government. Now ask yourself this question in what country in the world is it legal to give a ''right t return'' to an immigrant people????? let that sink in for a moment.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
How the hell are The Nubians immigrants when The Egyptian government recognized them and gave them a right to return? Where in the history of humanity has a Government ever gave a foreign people a right to return?. To me you guys are the ones that aren't making sense. The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt you can go there and ask them yourselves. They do not claim a Libyan origin and they don't even claim a Sudanese origin. The Nubians of Egypt were offended and in uproar when a filmmaker edited a conversation with a Nubian and claimed The Nubian man claimed a Sudanese origin. They claim to be Egyptians. Not Sudanese.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The guy is obviously confused.
Nubia refers to a place or region. The name is based on Nubt meaning golden one or place though the name in Egyptian usage was applied mainly to cities of that name (one in northern Upper Egypt near Naqada and the other in southern Upper Egypt). The Greeks and Romans used Nubia for the lands immediately south of Kmt (ancient Egypt) which today is the southern part of modern Egypt.
Modern Nubian peoples today are Nilo-Saharan speakers who immigrated into the region of Nubia and their name Nubian comes from their actual name Nuba/Noba who entered the region during Roman times and mixed with the ancient Nubians already there.
The Nubians in Egypt and Sudan don't claim a Roman period Libyan migration origin. Their homeland is within Southern Egypt. Even The Egyptian government knows this.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
^ Of course the Nubians are indigenous to southern Egypt. Nobody is denying that! Some of their ancestry comes from the ancient Nubians who lived their since antiquity while part of their ancestry comes from immigration during Roman times, regardless they were there long before the Arab Invasion let alone the modern Arab Republic of Egypt so of course they have rights to that land even after Nasser flooded the territory with his dam!
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Read it again. I didn't contradict myself. I only used the word Nubian again to refer to those people because that's what they are called today. I still understand that Nub referenced gold and it was neither an ethnic nor geographic term.
But the word 'Nubia' was used as a geographic term by the Greeks and the Romans after them. Anyone who lived in the region was called 'Nubian' regardless of ethnicity.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I Understand. I'm willing to listen and learn. The Nubians ae important because they are the only living Black Egyptians who still remain. No other African ethnic groups can claim a kinship to The Ancient Egyptians though the may have a common progenitor. The Nubians are not just related to the AE they are The AE themselves.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Keep reading, and try to learn the real truth and not just Afrocentric Fantasy!
quote: According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D
How does the above disprove anything we have been posting?
The genetic admixture is mostly from the Levant, Southern Arabia including Yemen.
However, the admixture is still minimal. These people from the Arabian Peninsula who admixed with the people from Northeast Africa, looked in many ways very similar to the people from Northeast Africa. Another thing that needs to be pointed out is, that these demographics also already had admixture when they moved into Northeast Africa, which gives us trace regions.
quote: “E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations”
E-M78 subclades
The distribution of E-M78 subclades among Sudanese is shown in Table 2. Only two chromosomes fell under the paragroup E-M78*. E-V65 and E-V13 were com- pletely absent in the samples analyzed, whereas the other subclades were relatively common. E-V12* accounts for 19.3% and is widely distributed among Su- danese. E-V32 (51.8%) is by far the most common sub- clades among Sudanese. It has the highest frequency among populations of western Sudan and Beja. E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups.
~Hisham Y. Hassan et al.
quote:
~Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta et al Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Ok, but we already knew that. It's you being in denial.
quote:Originally posted by viceroy:
quote: Conclusion We have shown that there has been long-term migration into Sudan, moving in a southward direction possibly along the Nile and the Blue Nile. From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan. Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].
The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.
From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan.
Of course they did, as a clustering group of people.
quote:"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian).
These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix.”
~K Godde An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
quote: The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years, were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance. A principal coordinates analysis and spatial-temporal model were applied to these data. The results reveal temporal and spatial patterning consistent with documented events in Egyptian and Nubian population history. Moreover, the Mesolithic Nubian sample clustered with later Nubian and Egyptian samples, indicating that events prior to the Mesolithic were important in shaping the later genetic patterning of the Nubian population. Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos maintained genetic similarity among the populations”
~K Godde A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley Volume 69, Issue 4, July 2018, Pages 147-157
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I Understand. I'm willing to listen and learn. The Nubians are important because they are the only living Black Egyptians who still remain.
Says who?! What about all the non-Arab Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians still left in Egypt, especially Sa'idi of Upper Egypt?! They are the true descendants and heirs of Egyptian civilization! The Nubians although indigenous to the region are not ethnic Egyptians.
quote:No other African ethnic groups can claim a kinship to The Ancient Egyptians though the may have a common progenitor. The Nubians are not just related to the AE they are The AE themselves.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: THE NUBIANS ARE INDIGENOUS TO EGYPT AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE. I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO PROVE ME WRONG!
Smirks,
You're not making much sense!
Are you talking about today's Nubians?
They're basically "Sudanese People" with extensive admixture!
Ancient Nubians were neighbors to the Ancient Egyptians, but they were sometimes friends and other times foes to the Egyptians.
The historical records are very clear, as far as the mixed relationship with the Egyptians.
Historical records show that they cluster as one group of people stemming from the same origin in the South.
quote:Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories.
Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty.
~Joel D Irish Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples Apr 2006 · American Journal of Physical Anthropology
quote: There is no significant dental difference between the Hierakonpolis C-Group and samples originating in Nubia proper
~J.D. Irisha, R. Friedman Dental affinities of the C-group inhabitants of Hierakonpolis, Egypt: Nubian, Egyptian, or both? Volume 61, Issue 2, April 2010, Pages 81–101 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jchb.2010.02.001
quote:
Our article presents a detailed Holocene archaeological sequence from the Nile Valley at Kerma in Upper Nubia, northern Sudan. This sequence retraces the evolution of human populations thanks to the study of several sites, supported by 90 14C dates. Reconstruction of the environmental changes was supported by a study of dated stratigraphic sections located near the archaeological sites studied, and illustrates the effects on human occupation of changes in river flow and floods, which are in turn forced by climatic changes. The results shed new light on the evolutionary dynamics of the Holocene populations in Nile Valley, little known due to the numerous hiatuses in occupation. When compared with the situation in the Sahara and the rest of the Nile Valley, they confirm that the initial occupation took place ca. 10.5 kyr BP after the start of the African Humid Period, followed by a migration towards the banks of the Nile commencing 7.3 kyr BP. They also confirm the appearance of the Neolithic by ca. 8.0 kyr BP. The Kerma stratigraphic sequences show two prosperous periods (10–8 and 7-6 kyr BP) and two hiatuses in the occupation of the sites (7.5–7.1 and 6.0–5.4 kyr BP), resulting from increased aridity.
~Matthieu Honeggera, Martin Williams b et al. Human occupations and environmental changes in the Nile valley during the Holocene: The case of Kerma in Upper Nubia (northern Sudan)
El- Barga reveals one of the most important necropoleis of the early Holocene in Africa.
This site was discovered in 2001 during a survey concentrating on the zones bordering the alluvial plain. The name el-Barga is borrowed from a nearby mountain. The site is located on an elevation formed by an outcrop of bedrock (Nubian sandstone) less than 15 km from the Nile, as the crow flies. It includes a settlement area dated to circa 7500 B.C and cemeteries belonging to two distinct periods..
The habitation is a circular hut slightly less than five metres in diameter, its maximum depth exceeding 50 centimetres. This semi-subterranean structure contained a wealth of artefacts resulting from the site’s occupation (ceramics, grinding tools, flint objects, ostrich eggshell beads, a mother-of-pearl pendant, bone tools, faunal remains, shells). The abundance of artefacts discovered suggests a marked inclination towards a sedentary lifestyle, even though certain activities (fishing and hunting) necessitate seasonal migration.
North of this habitation, about forty burials were dated to the Epipalaeolithic (7700-7000 B.C.) and generally do not contain any furnishings. On the other hand, the Neolithic cemetery 6000-5500 B.C.) located further south comprises about a hundred burials often containing artefacts (adornment, ceramics, flint or bone objects).
posted
All these black Egyptians are NOT Nubians but Baladi (indigenous) non-Arab ethnic Egyptians!
The original Egyptian people who created ancient Egypt are still there in Egypt today but you don't see or hear much about them because of the afrangi (foreign) elite who control the country and put out the image of 'fair and lovely' Arabesque looking Egyptians.
Afrangi like Viceroy who suffer from cognitive dissonance.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: Keep reading, and try to learn the real truth and not just Afrocentric Fantasy!
West-Eurasian migration from the north All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by **Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D** [9, 35].
Yes deluded muktaba, follow your own advise and read that the West-Eurasian migration and admixture is associated with the Islamic conquest and has NOTHING to do with ancient Egyptians who were almost equally African prior!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I Understand. I'm willing to listen and learn. The Nubians ae important because they are the only living Black Egyptians who still remain. No other African ethnic groups can claim a kinship to The Ancient Egyptians though the may have a common progenitor. The Nubians are not just related to the AE they are The AE themselves.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I Understand. I'm willing to listen and learn. The Nubians ae important because they are the only living Black Egyptians who still remain. No other African ethnic groups can claim a kinship to The Ancient Egyptians though the may have a common progenitor. The Nubians are not just related to the AE they are The AE themselves.
I clicked the link. It is about Kush but as I mentioned many times The Dinka/Nuer are The true Kushites while The Nubians are Indigenous Upper Egyptians. We know this because The Dinka word for people is “KOC” and there is even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. More proof is that Herodotus described The Kushites(Kerma,Meroe,Napata) as being the tallest people in the world which is a trait of The Dinka people. We also have Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Greek depictions of Kushites and they are portrayed with the same orange cow urine hair dye as The Dinka, jet black skin and leopard skins. So if The Dinka/Nuer were the original people of Northern Sudan then who are The Nubians? They are upper Egyptians which is why they were given a right to return because they are an Indigenous population. The Beja are The Medjay not The Egyptians though they are close relatives.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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"Each of the opponents is represented with his arms bound behind his back; the body has the shape of an notched oval containing the name of the region or the city from which each originates. The faces are marked in a very characturalistic way see tb_009.
These conquered or subdued countries (or parts of Egypt) are, from right to left: the Hau-Nebus (Aegean isles and others of the Mediterranean sea, see sb_5157) ; the Shatyu (Upper Nubia) ; Ta-shema (Upper Egypt see rb_0103) ; the Sheshtyu-im (inhabitants of the Oases) ; Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt see sb_5153) ; the Peityu-shu (Desert of the East see rb_0104) ; the Tjehenu (Libyans) ; the Iuntyu-sety (Nubians); the Menttyunu-sedjet (Beduins of Asia).
Thus, placed under Pharaoh's sandals, they are eternally in a state of submissiveness and dependence. The platform has preserved its beautiful yellow colour, which also extends on to the front slope, intended to make the design of the whole platform equate to the hieroglyphic sign for "Ma'at" (see cd_170)."
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I Understand. I'm willing to listen and learn. The Nubians are important because they are the only living Black Egyptians who still remain.
Says who?! What about all the non-Arab Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians still left in Egypt, especially Sa'idi of Upper Egypt?! They are the true descendants and heirs of Egyptian civilization! The Nubians although indigenous to the region are not ethnic Egyptians.
quote:No other African ethnic groups can claim a kinship to The Ancient Egyptians though the may have a common progenitor. The Nubians are not just related to the AE they are The AE themselves.
First, here is the problem. Since the AE never used the term "Nubian" to refer to any ethnic group, we cannot say anything about "Nubians" in antiquity.
What we can say for sure is that the gold mining regions from the predynastic to Dynastic era were always between Nubt in the North, The second Cataract and the Eastern desert. All of these areas would have been considered by the Egyptians as "Nubia" in the sense of meaning "golden lands" or land of gold, just as Nubt was the name of the gold mining centers. We also know that Ta Seti was a kingdom that arose during the predynastic precisely in the areas around Aswan and the 2nd cataract and became part of the Dynastic Kingdom during the Old Kingdom as the 1st nome of Kmt.
Here is where the confusion begins on the part of Egyptologists lumping all populations together arbitrarily based on an ancient non-existent concept of "Nubia" which the AE never used. By lumping "Ta-Seti" with "Nubia" then that would mean that the people of Ta-Seti were not part of Dynastic Kmt. That is false and is purely part of the propaganda of Egyptologists to separate black people from the ancient history of Kmt and the Nile Valley. If Egyptologists claim that ancient Ta-Seti is "nubian" (ie, blacks), then by all logic, "Nubians" in the way Egyptologists use it, was always part of Egypt. Period.
If you look at the tombs of the governors at Elephantine from the old and middle kingdom, no place called "Nubia" ever is mentioned. This is all made up by the Egypologists in lumping various groups into a non-existent geo-political entity.
Hence from the tomb of Herkhuf in Elephantine:
quote: His Majesty Merenre, my master, sent me, together with my father, Sole Companion and Lector-Priest, Iri, to the land of Yam (an area located in modern-day Sudan) to explore its ways. I carried out this mission in seven months, I brought back all sorts of tributes, beautiful and rare and I was praised for it very highly. His Majesty sent me a second time, alone. I went by way of the Elephantine road and returned via the land of Irtet, Makher and Teres of Irtet at the end of a voyage of eight months. I returned carrying tributes of this land in very great numbers, of a kind which nobody had ever brought to Egypt before. I returned, coming from the camp of the chief of Setu and Irtet after having explored this land. You will find no other Sole Companion, Chief of interpreters who has reached (so far) into the land of Yam before. His Majesty sent me for a third time to the land of Yam. I went there from the Nome of Thinis by the oasis road and I observed that the chief of the land of Yam had left for the land of the Timhiu to chastise them, as far as the western corner of the sky. I followed his trail to the land of the Timhiu and I pacified him until he adored all the gods for the sake of the royal Sovereign
Nowhere in there is there a mention of "Nubia" and all these different kingdoms or ethnic groups being considered as part of a single entity. On top of that, Elephantine is part of Ta-Seti, which again was IN EGYPT and therefore part of it and not a separate "Nubian" entity. Ta Seti stretched down to the Second cataract.
Now what is missing from this map, is the kingdom of Ta-Seti which became the first Nome of Upper Egypt. Ta Seti is the oldest culture in the Nile Valley near Egypt as it was based between Wadi Kubbaniyah in the North and Wadi Halfa in the South near the Second cataract.
quote: A society whose ancient name is unknown, called A-Group by archaeologists, was the earliest Nubian culture with strong rulers. Developing out of Neolithic cultures of the Nile valley, the A-Group is known largely from its cemeteries. Its burials, artifacts, and rock art are found along the Nile from Kubaniyya north of the 1st cataract to the 2nd cataract. Much of the power and wealth of the A-Group came from trade. Its location gave it access to gold from the eastern desert, carnelian from the western desert, and exotic products like incense, ivory, and ebony from farther south along the Nile. The A-Group traded these resources for Egyptian products, many contained in large storage vessels, as well as for olive oil from the Mediterranean coast.
The three main prehistoric cultures that were found leading up to the pre-dynastic are the Halfan, Qadan and Sebilian cultures of the Nile Valley. All of these cultures existed in the same area between Wadi Kubbaniyah and Wadi Halfa, which just so happens to be the same area as the so-called "A-Group" and Ta-Seti. This is the heartland of the culture that became Dynastic Kmt and also includes Nabta Playa to the West. But Egyptologists claim that these cultures are "Nubian" even going back 30,000 years or more, when there was no such thing as a "Nubia" or "Egypt" in those times.
Now, the A-Group is basically propaganda that hides the fact that as the lands of the Nile between Wadi Kubbaniyah and Wadi Halfa dried up, those populations migrated North and that migration north and from the deserts to the West (and East) is what became the Nexus of what emerged in the predynastic as Dynastic KMT. But the Egyptologists wont say that because they are trying to separate the fake entity of "Nubia" as "black Africans" from "Egypt" as other, "non black Africans". And that is the only purpose of the Egyptologist invention of the concept of Nubia and their current usage of the term.
Now, given that, the actual facts show that the culture of Ta-Seti again as the inheritor of thousands of years of cultural evolution in that part of the Nile, led to the rise of the Dynastic culture and thus became part of the Dynastic Kingdom. However, there was never a fixed "official" border during the Old Kingdom that is clearly identified in the South as to where Dynastic Kmt ended. Egyptologists claim that it was at Elephantine but that is most likely false and based on assumptions not facts. More likely the Southern border was somehwere around the 2nd cataract. And as the Old Kingdom fractured and became the 1st intermediate Period then Middle Kingdom, we see Southerners from Ta-Seti taking the throne and restoring the culture. And it is during this time period that the Southern Border of Ta-Seti were officially fixed at the second cataract at the fortresses of Buhen and Mirgissa and so forth. Contrary to what the Egyptologists like to claim, this was not a war against "Nubians" or an invasion of "Nubia" (because in their view Ta-Seti was part of a separate "Nubian" entitity), it was reclaiming what they considered as their Southern heritage, the lands of Ta-Seti between Aswan and the 2nd Cataract. As the 2nd cataract is near Wadi Halfa, which has always been identified as the Southern border of the 'A-Group', Halfan Cultures, Ta-Seti and so forth.
quote: Senusret I (Middle Egyptian: z-n-wsrt; /siː ni ˈwas.riʔ/) also anglicized as Sesostris I and Senwosret I, was the second pharaoh of the Twelfth Dynasty of Egypt. He ruled from 1971 BC to 1926 BC (1920 BC to 1875 BC)[2], and was one of the most powerful kings of this Dynasty. He was the son of Amenemhat I. Senusret I was known by his prenomen, Kheperkare, which means "the Ka of Re is created."[3]
He continued his father's aggressive expansionist policies against Nubia by initiating two expeditions into this region in his 10th and 18th years and established Egypt's formal southern border near the second cataract where he placed a garrison and a victory stele.[4] He also organized an expedition to a Western Desert oasis. Senusret I established diplomatic relations with some rulers of towns in Syria and Canaan. He also tried to centralize the country's political structure by supporting nomarchs who were loyal to him. His pyramid was constructed at el-Lisht. Senusret I is mentioned in the Story of Sinuhe where he is reported to have rushed back to the royal palace in Memphis from a military campaign in Libya after hearing about the assassination of his father, Amenemhat I.
And another reason for setting up these borders was to maintain access to the gold in these regions as the gold mines in Upper Egypt were becoming exhausted for the technology of today (again Nubia in ancient Egyptian language meaning gold mining regions/land of gold). This has nothing to do with subjugating "blacks" as claimed by Egyptologists.
So by all logic and history, Ta-Seti and the people therein as occupants of the Nile between Upper Egypt and the 2nd cataract have always been part of Egypt (as they are to this day) and not part of some ancient place called "Nubia".
Note it is in this stela that we see the use of the term "Nehesi" or Southerner as a general reference to people to the South. But in the context of the Stela and where it was located it indicated people from Kush or at the very least to the South of the 2nd cataract and not any specific ethnic group or culture.
But these fortresses were not really new and it appears that these "border forts" were started earlier, at least going back to Mentuhotep if not earlier.
quote: While there had been fortifications built in Nubia, Amenemhet II and Senusret II, Senusret III's predecessors, had not been extremely active in Nubia militarily, and some Nubian groups had gradually moved north past the Third Cataract. Senusret III initiated a series of devastating campaigns in Nubia very early in his reign (perhaps year 6) in order to secure his southern borders and protect the trading routes and mineral resources. Apparently, the Nubians were a troublesome lot during his reign, for Senusret III would again have to mount campaigns in at least the years 8, 10, 16 and 19 of his reign. Regardless, these campaigns seem to have been for the most part successful, for the king had inscribed on a great stele at Semna erected in year 8 of his rule, now in Berlin, "I carried off their women, I carried off their subjects, went forth to their wells, smote their bulls; I reaped their grain, and set fire thereto". In other words, he killed their men, enslaved their women and children, burnt their crops and poisoned their wells. The stele also provides that no Nubians were allowed to take their herds or boats to the north of the specified border.
And it is from these fortresses, especially during the 18th Dynasty that they started pushing South into Kush/Kerma/Meroe. Again all separate kingdoms not part of a single entity called "Nubia".
A book on the frontier regions of so-called "Nubia" and note how "Ta-Seti" is completely left out or not put in proper context as part of Egypt from Aswan to the 2nd cataract.
The whole point of all of these so-called "scholarly" studies is to create an artificial boundary between "Nubians" as "black people" to the South and the Dynastic Kingdom of KMT to the North. But the fact is the AE never used the term for "black" meaning KM in reference to any group OUTSIDE of KMT itself. Which shows this is all a complete play on words and propaganda.
So again, Ta-Seti was never part of anything called "Nubia" it was one of the kingdoms that became part of the Dynastic state and therefore was not a separate population or "race" of black people.
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Exactly The people being called “Nubians” are the very people of Ta-Seti. That’s why Egyptologists are trying to claim them as foreigners. They were NEVER apart of Kush. The Kushites were a Cattle-Herding People and described by Herodotus as the tallest in the world which matches The Dinka not The Nubians. This is also why they invented the Myth that The Nubians Migrated during the Roman period. They are trying to give a foreign origin to The Nubians when they’ve been Egyptians this whole time. They were given a right to return. They are Indigenous period.
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