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The Nubians are The true Indigenous Egyptians because they were recognized by The Egyptian government and given the right to return. a right to return can only be given to an Indigenous population. The Beja are The Medjay and if you know the history of Egypt you know The Medjay played an important role. They set up a public administration in Egypt so that fact alone should tell you that The Ancient Egyptians did not consider The Beja/Medjay Foreigners. What nation in the world would give a foreign people permission to set up a public administration in their own land? The Medjay/Beja Were apart of Egypt though a different ethnic group.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian.
that has to backed with references
author, title, and if possible URL
It is wiser to title topics like this
"Are the Beja and Afar/Cushitic groups are closest to Ancient Egyptians? »
^^ as a question
but first looking for old topics already posted on Egyptsearch like this:
beja site:http://www.egyptsearch.com
just search this on google^^
In the URL put the topic "Beja" or any topic
then after it this >
site:http://www.egyptsearch.com
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Anyone denying that The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups aren't the closest relatives of The Ancient Egyptians is either blind or just biased.
stop with this "Anyone denying" this is a forum not you telling people what you think the truth is and then saying anybody questioning it is wrong
You have already been proven wrong on several occasions
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
1. “People see what they want to see and what people want to see isn’t always the truth.” Roberto Bolano
2. “Your perception of me is a reflection of you.” Anonymous
3. “I stopped explaining myself when I realized other people only understand from their level of perception.” Anonymous
4. “If I make a fool of myself, who cares? I’m not frightened by anyone’s perception of me.” Angelina Jolie
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smirk - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.comwww.vocabulary.com › dictionary › smirk A smirk is specific kind of smile, one that suggests self-satisfaction, smugness, or even pleasure at someone else's unhappiness or misfortune. Smirk can function as either a noun or a verb: "Wipe that smirk off your face.Posts: 1061 | From: Laos | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
The Nubians claim no migration origin. They are Indigenous Egyptians and this is well known in Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] I admitted I was wrong about The Nubians being The Ancient Egyptians. I was just leaning on The name Nubia originating from Nubt. Now I've learned that they did not originate from Nubt/Naqada but rather migrated from Libya.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian. The Nubian Language is classified as a Nilo-Saharan Language like The Toubou language in Libya. This is why The Nubians resemble The Toubou and don't carry the grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians. We only see The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups preserving The grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians because they are all Kin to The Ancient Egyptians.
I should point out that the modern Nubians you speak of which settled the Nile Valley during Roman times are different from the ancient Nubians who lived there long before them and likely intermarried. It's not known for certain what languages the ancient Nubians spoke but it is very probable they spoke Afrasian languages related to Egyptian and Cushitic, and there is a growing theory that at least those ancient Nubians living in northern Sudan and southern Egypt prior to the Nilo-Saharan immigration during Roman times spoke a language closely related to the To-Bedawi language of the Beja.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian. The Nubian Language is classified as a Nilo-Saharan Language like The Toubou language in Libya. This is why The Nubians resemble The Toubou and don't carry the grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians. We only see The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups preserving The grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians because they are all Kin to The Ancient Egyptians.
I should point out that the modern Nubians you speak of which settled the Nile Valley during Roman times are different from the ancient Nubians who lived there long before them and likely intermarried. It's not known for certain what languages the ancient Nubians spoke but it is very probable they spoke Afrasian languages related to Egyptian and Cushitic, and there is a growing theory that at least those ancient Nubians living in northern Sudan and southern Egypt prior to the Nilo-Saharan immigration during Roman times spoke a language closely related to the To-Bedawi language of the Beja. .
(Procopius, description of Blemmyes, History of the Wars, Books I and II (of 8) The Persian War,)
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posted
Everyone who claims that Beja or Afar are the "closest" to the ancient Egyptians almost NEVER ever say so based on an actual linguistic analysis. Why do people make this claim and can't lay down a basic comparative analysis of the languages? You guys need to stop making stuff up and do some actual work for once. Just a random comparison of some basic vocabulary words shows that Beja (for example) is not closely related to Egyptian:
ciKam: mw.t "dead" Beja: aĚi āb "dead"
ciKam:zkr "to journey" or xp.t "journey" Beja: ʔībāb "journey"
ciKam: Ad "to be angry" or dndn "to be angry" Beja: abāk "angry"
ciKam:jTi "to take, to seize" or jkn "to seize" or Am "seize" Beja: abik "seize; hold"
ciKam: wSa "chew; to utter" or wgi "to chew" or Xpa "to chew (med.)" Beja: āḍ "chew"
ciKam:ciKam:Sd "vulva" or kA.t "vagina; vulva" Beja: āḍ "vulva"
ciKam: kp "palm of hand/foot"; Beja: dambi "palm of hand"
As we can see here, there are no patterns. This will continue the more words we can compare. Just because we can probably place the Beja in ancient Kemet, doesn't mean that they are the "Egyptians" any more than the Chinese are Native Americans because they have citizenship here. We got to do better.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [QB] Everyone who claims that Beja or Afar are the "closest" to the ancient Egyptians almost NEVER ever say so based on an actual linguistic analysis. Why do people make this claim and can't lay down a basic comparative analysis of the languages? You guys need to stop making stuff up and do some actual work for once. Just a random comparison of some basic vocabulary words shows that Beja (for example) is not closely related to Egyptian:
As we can see here, there are no patterns. This will continue the more words we can compare. Just because we can probably place the Beja in ancient Kemet, doesn't mean that they are the "Egyptians" any more than the Chinese are Native Americans because they have citizenship here. We got to do better.
you say there is a strong relationship between Egyptian and Bantu language. Why aren't more professorial linguists and professional Egyptologists supporting that? Is it just racism?
Also what is Mario Beatty's position on this?
Also do you think there is an ethnic groups today that is closest to the ancient Egyptians or is it just generally native Egyptians?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by viceroy: 1. “People see what they want to see and what people want to see isn’t always the truth.” Roberto Bolano
2. “Your perception of me is a reflection of you.” Anonymous
3. “I stopped explaining myself when I realized other people only understand from their level of perception.” Anonymous
4. “If I make a fool of myself, who cares? I’m not frightened by anyone’s perception of me.” Angelina Jolie
I agree.
quote:There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.
In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas
[...]
Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.
In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.
This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography”
~Kathryn A. Bard (STEPHEN E. THOMPSON Egyptians, physical anthropology of Physical anthropology) (1999, 2005, 2015)
quote: "Many of the sites reveal evidence of important interactions between Nilotic and Saharan groups during the formative phases of the Egyptian Predynastic Period (e.g. Wadi el-Hôl, Rayayna, Nuq’ Menih, Kurkur Oasis). Other sites preserve important information regarding the use of the desert routes during the Protodynastic and Pharaonic Periods, particularly during periods of political and military turmoil in the Nile Valley (e.g. Gebel Tjauti, Wadi el-Hôl)."
quote:Beja, Arabic Bujah, nomadic people grouped into tribes and occupying mountain country between the Red Sea and the Nile and Atbara rivers from the latitude of Aswān southeastward to the Eritrean Plateau—that is, from southeastern Egypt through Sudan and into Eritrea. Numbering about 1.9 million in the early 21st century, the Beja are descended from peoples who have lived in the area since 4000 BCE or earlier.
I should point out that the modern Nubians you speak of which settled the Nile Valley during Roman times are different from the ancient Nubians who lived there long before them and likely intermarried. It's not known for certain what languages the ancient Nubians spoke but it is very probable they spoke Afrasian languages related to Egyptian and Cushitic, and there is a growing theory that at least those ancient Nubians living in northern Sudan and southern Egypt prior to the Nilo-Saharan immigration during Roman times spoke a language closely related to the To-Bedawi language of the Beja.
I forgot to mention that modern Nubians are called such because their actual name is Noba/Nuba hence Nubians, though the ancient Nubians were called such by the Greeks due to the Egyptian Nubt.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I should point out that the modern Nubians you speak of which settled the Nile Valley during Roman times are different from the ancient Nubians who lived there long before them and likely intermarried. It's not known for certain what languages the ancient Nubians spoke but it is very probable they spoke Afrasian languages related to Egyptian and Cushitic, and there is a growing theory that at least those ancient Nubians living in northern Sudan and southern Egypt prior to the Nilo-Saharan immigration during Roman times spoke a language closely related to the To-Bedawi language of the Beja.
I forgot to mention that modern Nubians are called such because their actual name is Noba/Nuba hence Nubians, though the ancient Nubians were called such by the Greeks due to the Egyptian Nubt.
quote:The term should not be confused with the Nubians, an ethnic group speaking the Nubian languages, although the Hill Nubians, who live in the Nuba Mountains, are also considered part of the Nuba geographic grouping of peoples.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Everyone who claims that Beja or Afar are the "closest" to the ancient Egyptians almost NEVER ever say so based on an actual linguistic analysis. Why do people make this claim and can't lay down a basic comparative analysis of the languages? You guys need to stop making stuff up and do some actual work for once. Just a random comparison of some basic vocabulary words shows that Beja (for example) is not closely related to Egyptian:
ciKam: mw.t "dead" Beja: aĚi āb "dead"
ciKam:zkr "to journey" or xp.t "journey" Beja: ʔībāb "journey"
ciKam: Ad "to be angry" or dndn "to be angry" Beja: abāk "angry"
ciKam:jTi "to take, to seize" or jkn "to seize" or Am "seize" Beja: abik "seize; hold"
ciKam: wSa "chew; to utter" or wgi "to chew" or Xpa "to chew (med.)" Beja: āḍ "chew"
ciKam:ciKam:Sd "vulva" or kA.t "vagina; vulva" Beja: āḍ "vulva"
ciKam: kp "palm of hand/foot"; Beja: dambi "palm of hand"
As we can see here, there are no patterns. This will continue the more words we can compare. Just because we can probably place the Beja in ancient Kemet, doesn't mean that they are the "Egyptians" any more than the Chinese are Native Americans because they have citizenship here. We got to do better.
Taking a handful of phrases and sayings is not enough to establish a linguistic link or a lack thereof. You say that scholars have never presented a linguistic argument for Egyptian-Beja relations, since when? Have you read the works of linguists like Harold Fleming or Robert Hetzron, or better yet Andrzej Zaborski??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_language#Lexicon Through lexicostatistical analysis, David Cohen (1988) observed that Beja shared a basic vocabulary of around 20% with the East Cushitic Afar and Somali languages and the Central Cushitic Agaw languages, which are among its most geographically near Afroasiatic languages. This was analogous to the percentage of common lexical terms that was calculated for certain other Cushitic languages, such as Afar and Oromo. Václav Blažek (1997) conducted a more comprehensive glottochronological examination of languages and data. He identified a markedly close ratio of 40% cognates between Beja and Proto-East Cushitic as well as a cognate percentage of approximately 20% between Beja and Central Cushitic, similar to that found by Cohen. A fairly large portion of Beja vocabulary is borrowed from Arabic. In Eritrea and Sudan, some terms are instead Tigre loanwords.[49] Andrzej Zaborski has noted close parallels between Beja and Egyptian vocabulary.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Linguistic evidence indicates that the Medjay spoke an ancient Cushitic language related to the Cushitic Beja language and that the Blemmyes were a subdivision of the Medjay. Rilly (2019) mentions historical records of a powerful Cushitic speaking group which controlled Lower Nubia and some cities in Upper Egypt. Rilly (2019) states: "The Blemmyes are another Cushitic speaking tribe, or more likely a subdivision of the Medjay/Beja people, which is attested in Napatan and Egyptian texts from the 6th century BC on."[18] On page 134: "From the end of the 4th century until the 6th century AD, they held parts of Lower Nubia and some cities of Upper Egypt."[19] He mentions the linguistic relationship between the modern Beja language and the ancient Cushitic Blemmyan language which dominated Lower Nubia and that the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay: "The Blemmyan language is so close to modern Beja that it is probably nothing else than an early dialect of the same language. In this case, the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay."[20]
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Linguistic evidence indicates that the Medjay spoke an ancient Cushitic language related to the Cushitic Beja language and that the Blemmyes were a subdivision of the Medjay. Rilly (2019) mentions historical records of a powerful Cushitic speaking group which controlled Lower Nubia and some cities in Upper Egypt. Rilly (2019) states: "The Blemmyes are another Cushitic speaking tribe, or more likely a subdivision of the Medjay/Beja people, which is attested in Napatan and Egyptian texts from the 6th century BC on."[18] On page 134: "From the end of the 4th century until the 6th century AD, they held parts of Lower Nubia and some cities of Upper Egypt."[19] He mentions the linguistic relationship between the modern Beja language and the ancient Cushitic Blemmyan language which dominated Lower Nubia and that the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay: "The Blemmyan language is so close to modern Beja that it is probably nothing else than an early dialect of the same language. In this case, the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay."[20]
The Beja: Closest relatives to the Ancient Egyptians (redux)
^^Wally started this topic on Egyptsearch 9 years ago
I don't agree with it. The Egyptians are the Egyptians. None of the invaders displaced them. They mixed with them and other foreigners coming in over the centuries
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The Beja are The Medjay so they were definitely in Egypt. The Beja/Medjay formed a Public Administration in Egypt. Now ask yourself this Question do you really think The Ancient Egyptians would give such a high position to a people who had no Ethnic relation to them? This is common sense. The Ancient Egyptians obviously considered The Beja/Medjay family if they gave them such a position.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian. The Nubian Language is classified as a Nilo-Saharan Language like The Toubou language in Libya. This is why The Nubians resemble The Toubou and don't carry the grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians. We only see The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups preserving The grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians because they are all Kin to The Ancient Egyptians.
"Ancient Nubia" is a meaningless concept because according to many Egyptologists "Nubia" includes everything from Aswan all the way down to the 5th or 6th cataract. That is totally nonsensical. Ta-Seti was around the 1st and 2nd cataract and was absorbed into the Dynastic AE state. Ta Seti is included in "Nubia". But the ancient border of Dynastic Kmt was somewhere around Abu Simbel/Buhen, which includes everything under Lake Nasser and is technically Ta-Seti "Nubia". To the South of that was Kush, which again was not "Nubia". The only reason they are all lumped together as "Nubians" is because Egyptologists treat "Nubian" as meaning "black folks".
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Linguistic evidence indicates that the Medjay spoke an ancient Cushitic language related to the Cushitic Beja language and that the Blemmyes were a subdivision of the Medjay. Rilly (2019) mentions historical records of a powerful Cushitic speaking group which controlled Lower Nubia and some cities in Upper Egypt. Rilly (2019) states: "The Blemmyes are another Cushitic speaking tribe, or more likely a subdivision of the Medjay/Beja people, which is attested in Napatan and Egyptian texts from the 6th century BC on."[18] On page 134: "From the end of the 4th century until the 6th century AD, they held parts of Lower Nubia and some cities of Upper Egypt."[19] He mentions the linguistic relationship between the modern Beja language and the ancient Cushitic Blemmyan language which dominated Lower Nubia and that the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay: "The Blemmyan language is so close to modern Beja that it is probably nothing else than an early dialect of the same language. In this case, the Blemmyes can be regarded as a particular tribe of the Medjay."[20]
The Beja: Closest relatives to the Ancient Egyptians (redux)
^^Wally started this topic on Egyptsearch 9 years ago
I don't agree with it. The Egyptians are the Egyptians. None of the invaders displaced them. They mixed with them and other foreigners coming in over the centuries
I'm sorry anybody with two eyes can see that the types of people portrayed in Ancient Egyptian Art and Sculpture are no longer present in Egypt today. If you think todays Egyptians resemble The Ancient Egyptians portrayed on the walls then you need your eyes checked.
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“WE HAVE COME TO SERVE PHARAOH:” A STUDY OF THE MEDJAY AND PANGRAVE AS AN ETHNIC GROUP AND AS MERCENARIES FROM C. 2300 BCE UNTIL C. 1050 BCE Kate Liszka Josef Wegner
The Medjay were an elusive people whom Ancient Egyptian texts seem to refer to as either an ethnic or an occupational group. In the early part of their history, they appear to have been a subgroup of Nubians associated with a land called Medja. In the later part, the word Medjay appears to indicate desert policemen of Egyptian origin. Additionally, scholars have associated the Medjay with the Pangrave archaeological culture that appears from the end of the Middle Kingdom through the Second Intermediate Period (c. 1750-1550 BCE). Attempting to make sense of this shift, scholars some fifty years ago postulated that the original desert-dwelling Medjay moved to Egypt as mercenaries and then assimilated into Egyptian society. Yet, since that time, new evidence and new theoretical perspectives have appeared that can help us reexamine the question of who the Medjay were. This dissertation reassesses the primary textual, artistic, and archaeological material and the secondary sources for the Medjay and the Pangrave. Moreover, it examines this question with the help of anthropological theory and other interdisciplinary and comparative methodologies in order to reexamine the framework for how and why the Medjay changed diachronically. It concludes that 1)Egyptians likely created the Medjay ethnicity as a stereotype that did not reflect autochthonous ethnic divisions. 2) The Medjay prior to the Second Intermediate Period were primarily pastoral nomads who took a variety of jobs, not just as mercenaries. A specialized Medjay military unit probably did not exist until the Second Intermediate Period. 3) The role of the Medjay in the Egyptian army of the Second Intermediate Period probably caused the definition of the word Medjay to shift to an occupation. 4) A Medjay military unit may have incorporated Egyptians as early as the beginning of Dynasty 18. 5) The definition of the word Medjay changed after the Second Intermediate Period, which did not reflect a change in the population of the Eastern Desert. 6) For several reasons, scholars should doubt the connection between the Pangrave and the Medjay, and they should not supplement evidence for one in studying the othe
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian. The Nubian Language is classified as a Nilo-Saharan Language like The Toubou language in Libya. This is why The Nubians resemble The Toubou and don't carry the grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians. We only see The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups preserving The grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians because they are all Kin to The Ancient Egyptians.
"Ancient Nubia" is a meaningless concept because according to many Egyptologists "Nubia" includes everything from Aswan all the way down to the 5th or 6th cataract. That is totally nonsensical. Ta-Seti was around the 1st and 2nd cataract and was absorbed into the Dynastic AE state. Ta Seti is included in "Nubia". But the ancient border of Dynastic Kmt was somewhere around Abu Simbel/Buhen, which includes everything under Lake Nasser and is technically Ta-Seti "Nubia". To the South of that was Kush, which again was not "Nubia". The only reason they are all lumped together as "Nubians" is because Egyptologists treat "Nubian" as meaning "black folks".
Understood. However would you agree that The Nubians have always lived where they are today? or that they came from a 4th Century AD Libyan migration?
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I want to correct some of my previous statements where I claimed that The Nubians of today were descendants of The Ancient Egyptians. I came across information that stated The Nubians migrated from Libya and were given land stretching from North Sudan to Southern Egypt by Roman Emperor Diocletian. The Nubian Language is classified as a Nilo-Saharan Language like The Toubou language in Libya. This is why The Nubians resemble The Toubou and don't carry the grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians. We only see The Afar/Beja and other Cushitic groups preserving The grooming practices of The Ancient Egyptians because they are all Kin to The Ancient Egyptians.
"Ancient Nubia" is a meaningless concept because according to many Egyptologists "Nubia" includes everything from Aswan all the way down to the 5th or 6th cataract. That is totally nonsensical. Ta-Seti was around the 1st and 2nd cataract and was absorbed into the Dynastic AE state. Ta Seti is included in "Nubia". But the ancient border of Dynastic Kmt was somewhere around Abu Simbel/Buhen, which includes everything under Lake Nasser and is technically Ta-Seti "Nubia". To the South of that was Kush, which again was not "Nubia". The only reason they are all lumped together as "Nubians" is because Egyptologists treat "Nubian" as meaning "black folks".
Understood. However would you agree that The Nubians have always lived where they are today? or that they came from a 4th Century AD Libyan migration?
I do not use the term "Nubia" to refer to any ancient population on the Nile in the Dynastic era. It only exists to confuse the relationships among different populations on the Nile and is useless to any real understanding of the ancient Nile Valley.
That said, the modern Beja are descendants of an ancient population of semi nomadic groups who always existed along the Nile and in the deserts. That historic fact of nomads wandering around the deserts between the Nile, the Red sea and even towards the Mediterranean are the basis of the legends. But again, these anecdotes only the tip of a larger iceberg of a larger reality of human historical migrations in these areas going back many thousands of years. The Beja of today are not the same as the Beja of 2000 years ago or the Medjay of 4000 years ago. Too much time has passed and too many events have taken place to lump all these people together as a single continuous ethnic group..... Of course they are related but lumping them together as "Beja" is no better than lumping all groups South of Aswan together as "ancient Nubians".
In my opinion the ancient Medjay roughly correspond to the peoples generally in the area of ancient Ta-Seti around Aswan and the Eastern and Western Deserts. But for those groups they were part of the Dynastic state just like Ta-Seti was absorbed into the AE state. Like you said, these so-called "Nubians" were always part of the dynastic kingdom. But they are not the same people as those further South in Kerma or Kush and further south still in Punt. The AE themselves identified Punt as their homeland. But these were all distinct ethnic groups in ancient times. And various nomadic groups existed in all these areas throughout history.
quote: One of the aims of the season was a survey of the goldmine at Alitiatib in the midst of the Wadi Amur, deep in the Red Sea Hills. One of the interesting and salient features of the site was the large quantity of Eastern Desert Ware found at the site – a hallmark of the local Blemmyean desert nomads. The quantities of this ware strongly point to the control of this goldmine and settlement by this indigenous nomadic group rather than foreign Nubians or Egyptians. The settlement, situated in the fertile Wadi Amur, also likely functioned as a way-station between the Red Sea and the Nile, as is indicated by the finds of sea shells. Such a site challenges the common view that mining in the desert was dictated by foreign concerns, rather than an enterprise of indigenous nomads. The survey, following the Wadi Amur towards the Nile, identified a new cemetery of ring-graves at the hill of Di’irabab. The cemetery is on the crest of a small hill. The lack of surface deposits around the tombs makes the site difficult to date at present.
The Egyptians are the Egyptians. None of the invaders displaced them. They mixed with them and other foreigners coming in over the centuries
I'm sorry anybody with two eyes can see that the types of people portrayed in Ancient Egyptian Art and Sculpture are no longer present in Egypt today. If you think todays Egyptians resemble The Ancient Egyptians portrayed on the walls then you need your eyes checked.
I just explained to you the many of the people in Egypt today may have dynastic ancient Egyptian roots but have been mixed with Arabs other Africans and other foreigners since then. So you can't go by looks and make assumptions about modern people. Some random person in Ethiopia today might look like an ancient Egyptian. That doesn't mean they have an ancestor from ancient Egypt. Likewise an Egyptian with a lot of Levant admixture might not look like an ancient Egyptian but they might have an actual ancestor from the ancient Egyptian civilization
King Seti I and the Goddess Hathor, 19th dynasty
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Too much time has passed and too many events have taken place to lump all these people together as a single continuous ethnic group..... Of course they are related but lumping them together as "Beja" is no better than lumping all groups South of Aswan together as "ancient Nubians".
"Nubian" should be regarded as meaning "Nehesy"
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Isn't there evidence suggesting that the Blemmyes (Beja ancestors) were also part of the wave of migrants from the Western Desert along with the Noba??
Regardless there is a large gap in time between Beja and Medjay.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you say there is a strong relationship between Egyptian and Bantu language. Why aren't more professorial linguists and professional Egyptologists supporting that? Is it just racism?
Also what is Mario Beatty's position on this?
Also do you think there is an ethnic groups today that is closest to the ancient Egyptians or is it just generally native Egyptians?
To your first question, because most linguists are lazy and refuse to do the work. Most summarily dismiss arguments without engaging the data. Notice how there was a claim that Beja are "closest" to the Egyptians, but there was no evidence to support that claim: genetic, cultural, or linguistic. When I engaged the argument, I made my argument based on the raw data: no speculations. This is how you engage arguments. Most people on this forum follow suit with the Africanists and can never verify or falsify their claims. This is where the African school of Egyptologists different from Africanists.
As far as Beatty, who knows. He doesn't deal with linguistics. He's a philologist.
To your third question, the Egyptian civilization was a confederacy of different ethnic groups. It's hard to say who was the founding ethnic group for which the sS-md.w-nTr was patterned after. But there were various African groups depicted on the walls as native "Egyptians." We know the Afar were there, the Kresh were there, the proto-Kalenjiin were there, etc. They all are "the closest".
What people fail to realize is that you can have a minority ruling class, but have a majority ruled class that can be made up of diverse ethnic groups. This is what happened, for example, among the Amazulu. The real Amazulu were very few in number. But they absorbed other clans in their colonial efforts and all of them became "Zulus." It is the same in ancient Km.t. However, in Km.t, everyone was able to maintain their ethnic identities and languages.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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The Egyptians are the Egyptians. None of the invaders displaced them. They mixed with them and other foreigners coming in over the centuries
I'm sorry anybody with two eyes can see that the types of people portrayed in Ancient Egyptian Art and Sculpture are no longer present in Egypt today. If you think todays Egyptians resemble The Ancient Egyptians portrayed on the walls then you need your eyes checked.
I just explained to you the many of the people in Egypt today may have dynastic ancient Egyptian roots but have been mixed with Arabs other Africans and other foreigners since then. So you can't go by looks and make assumptions about modern people. Some random person in Ethiopia today might look like an ancient Egyptian. That doesn't mean they have an ancestor from ancient Egypt. Likewise an Egyptian with a lot of Levant admixture might not look like an ancient Egyptian but they might have an actual ancestor from the ancient Egyptian civilization
King Seti I and the Goddess Hathor, 19th dynasty
Ok but having an ancestor from Ancient Egypt doesn't make you an Ancient Egyptian. Morgan Freeman has a Tuareg ancestor yet he is not an ethnic Tuareg.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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The Nubians are the very people of Nubt. Egypt's oldest pre-dynastic city-state.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted the lioness: do you think there is an ethnic groups today that is closest to the ancient Egyptians or is it just generally native Egyptians?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: the Egyptian civilization was a confederacy of different ethnic groups. It's hard to say who was the founding ethnic group for which the sS-md.w-nTr was patterned after. But there were various African groups depicted on the walls as native "Egyptians." We know the Afar were there, the Kresh were there, the proto-Kalenjiin were there, etc. They all are "the closest".
Ok
Afar, they are of of Djibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia.
Kresh speakers are from South Sudan
Kalenjiin, mainly from Kenya, Uganda, some other counties, some in Sudan also
So given these groups, do the languages they speak have closest similarities (of currently spoken languages) to Egyptian?
If not which particular African languages spoken today are closest to ancient Egyptian (ciKam) in your opinion? Also how does Coptic figure in to this?
Also do the people currently speaking the closest language today necessarily mean they are the closest biologically? That could have 2 dimensions a) most similar to biologically but may or may not have had dynastic AE ancestors or b) having the most actual AE ancestry "blood" but may or may not be the most biologically similar in the broader sense due to later generational admixture
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Taking a handful of phrases and sayings is not enough to establish a linguistic link or a lack thereof. You say that scholars have never presented a linguistic argument for Egyptian-Beja relations, since when? Have you read the works of linguists like Harold Fleming or Robert Hetzron, or better yet Andrzej Zaborski??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_language#Lexicon Through lexicostatistical analysis, David Cohen (1988) observed that Beja shared a basic vocabulary of around 20% with the East Cushitic Afar and Somali languages and the Central Cushitic Agaw languages, which are among its most geographically near Afroasiatic languages. This was analogous to the percentage of common lexical terms that was calculated for certain other Cushitic languages, such as Afar and Oromo. Václav Blažek (1997) conducted a more comprehensive glottochronological examination of languages and data. He identified a markedly close ratio of 40% cognates between Beja and Proto-East Cushitic as well as a cognate percentage of approximately 20% between Beja and Central Cushitic, similar to that found by Cohen. A fairly large portion of Beja vocabulary is borrowed from Arabic. In Eritrea and Sudan, some terms are instead Tigre loanwords.[49] Andrzej Zaborski has noted close parallels between Beja and Egyptian vocabulary.
In addition,
quote:"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest relatives are other north-east African languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's cultural features, both material and ideological and particularly in the earliest phases, show clear connections with that same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt was an African culture, developed by African peoples, who had wide ranging contacts in north Africa and western Asia.”
~Morkot, Robert (2005) The Egyptians: An Introduction. (p. 10)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Blažek’s (2014) studied the lexical borrowings between Beja and the three Nilo-Saharan languages that were in contact with it: Nile Nubian (Nobiin, Kenzi and Dongola varieties), Kunama and Nara. The author discusses the direction of 36 borrowings, which consist mostly of the comparisons provided by Reinisch. It turns out that Beja borrowings from Nilo-Saharan amount to only nine lexical items, plus one dubious one, seven from Nubian, two from Kunama and one from Nara (the item for ‘white’ was counted twice, as a borrowing from Nubian and from Nara). Two more loans, which came ultimately from Egyptian via Nubian could be added to these figures; for ten items the direction of borrowing is undecidable (and the twelve remaining items were borrowed from Beja into Nilo-Saharan). Overall, it seems thus that contact with Nilo- Saharan had very little impact on Beja, at least at the lexical level.
~Martine Vanhove. North-Cushitic. 2016. halshs-01485896
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The fact that The Nubian immigrants in The United States are forced to be classified as White is proof that they are The Ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Rufus L. Perry (March 11, 1834 - June 18, 1895) was an educator, journalist, and Baptist minister from Brooklyn, New York. He was a prominent member of the African Civilization Society and was a co-founder of the Howard Colored Orphan Asylum, which developed from it. He was the editor of numerous newspapers and journals, most notably the ''National Monitor''. He was a prominent Baptist, and in 1886 he founded the Messiah Baptist Church, where he was pastor until his death. He was also a classical scholar. Rufus L. Perry was born a slave on a plantation in Smith County, Tennessee on March 11, 1834 Lewis escaped to Canada when Rufus was seven years old, and Rufus was brought back to the plantation where his education gave him the reputation of being "dangerous".[2] In August 1852 he was sold to a trader to be taken to Mississippi. However, Perry was able to forge a pass and after three weeks himself fled to Windsor, Ontario, Canada.[3]
In 1854, Perry converted to the Baptist religion and soon after enrolled in the Kalamazoo Seminary in Kalamazoo, Michigan where he graduated in 1861. On or about October 9, 1861 he was ordained pastor of the Second Baptist Church at Ann Arbor, Michigan. He later became a pastor in St. Catherine's, Ontario, and Buffalo, New York.
He was also a scholar of classical ethnology and read Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. In 1887 he wrote a text, The Cushite, or the Children of Ham as seen by the Ancient Historians and Poets,[2] which he published as a book in 1893 under the title, The Cushite, Or, The Descendants of Ham: As Found in the Sacred Scriptures and in the Writings of Ancient Historians and Poets from Noah to the Christian Era.[6] This work traces the history of black people to a "glorious past". In that way, his work fits in a literature which attempts to disassociate nobility or goodness with whiteness.[10] The introduction for the book was written by T. McCants Stewart. Perry was awarded a PhD in theology from Kalamazoo Seminary,[5] and received two honorary degrees. He was granted an honorary Doctor of Philosophy on May 17, 1887 by Simmons College of Kentucky, the day after delivering a commencement lecture[2][13] and a doctorate of divinity by Wilberforce University in 1888.
posted
Most Egyptologists admit that the Ancient Egyptians were African and that their origins lie in Africa; The Green Sahara and there was a cultural similarity with Nubia etc especially in Upper Egypt.
The ones who say that stuff are biodiversity google scholars and sensationalist media outlets For example the Abusir journalists, who created their click-bair DNA study title Claiming "Ancient Egypt being More European then sneakly putting in fine print that the study only represented one sample from the late period, knowing no one was going to read it. Like the Sneaky Snake Skin, Jelly back coward racists they are they can then claim..."See We never said Egypt was European...Look What we wrote"...Wink Wink.
Anyone who is familiar with Ancient Egyptian archeology and anthropology and is honest knows the truth, I dont even see why this debate is still going on tbh If they found a preserved blue eyed blond haired mummy with German written on the tomb, NONE of that, DNA, Abusir, Ca-ca-zoid skull...NONE will overturn the mountains of evidence we already have attesting to an Arican derived and African founding of Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I think the average Egyptologist wouldn't doubt that The AE were Racially like modern Cushitic People. This is why they try to claim them as ''Caucasoid'', they are pretty much silently admitting The AE were like these people which is why they won't acknowledge them as Africans.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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@LIONESS as I said before anybody doubting The Cushitic Presence among The Ancient Egyptians is either blind or just biased. You are practicing Scientism by applying The Scientific Method to Race. As Jari said a Eurocentric Click-Blair DNA study has NOTHING ON THE ART AND SCULPTURES THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS LEFT OF THEMSELVES!. You know someone's Race just by looking at them. You know a Black Person by looking at them and you know a White person just by looking a them.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
This screen shot is the protrayal of a nubian done by an Egyptian
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] @LIONESS as I said before anybody doubting The Cushitic Presence among The Ancient Egyptians is either blind or just biased. You are practicing Scientism by...
you didn't understand either of my previous posts and I also put up links to read more there
I could be posting things supporting what you are saying but you don't even know that because you haven't don't the reading like other people posting in this topic and you don't understand it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: This screen shot is the protrayal of a nubian done by an Egyptian
Yes The Dinka/Nuer are The Kushites/Nehesi. ''KAS'' survives today as ''KOC'' meaning People in Dinka and ''NHSI'' survives today as ''NATH'' Which is the original name The Nuer called themselves.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] @LIONESS as I said before anybody doubting The Cushitic Presence among The Ancient Egyptians is either blind or just biased. You are practicing Scientism by...
you didn't understand either of my previous posts and I also put up links to read more there
I could be posting things supporting what you are saying but you don't even know that because you haven't don't the reading like other people posting in this topic and you don't understand it
Ok but you are confusing modern Cushitic speakers with the historical Kush when they were NEVER apart of Kush. Meroitic was NOT a Cushitic Language. Most linguists consider it apart of The Nilo-Saharan family. So the term ''Cushitic'' is Pseudo when referring to modern Cushitic speakers because the Ancient Kushites DID NOT speak a Cushitic Language.
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