posted
Again, the point of my quote was to "quote" a DNA studie done on Kerma culture not to reinstate Nubia as a legitimate term or designation. Reading this thread, historical references, documents and DNA studies has lead to some confusion for me and I was looking for clarification on A group Kerma culture and C group. That is all. Now as I read more I see that the long history of NE Africa and the diverse groups that are in the region can lead general confusion.
Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?
Question 2. What is the difference if any genetically and culturally between, Afro Asiatic, Kushitic, Nubian, South Sudandic and Egyptian cultures?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Ancient OR Modern?
you threw in modern to flip the script
No dummy Ancient "Nubians" has WAAAAAY more diversity than the modern bottlenecked Ethnic group of "Nubian" speakers.
See wise words from Tukuler:
quote:Are some Nehesi Medjay? Are the Medjay Bedja? Are Bedja Afar?
And what about those Mentiu (and Intiu)?
Nehhesu weren't monolithic. Red Sea peoples were counted Nehesi. Those were in constant contact with Sinai and environs peoples.
One type of Nubian. Considering the modern ethno-geographic terminology Nubia (link) Very southern Egypt (Gebel el Silsila), Lower Nubia, Upper Nubia, Southern Nubia (Butana).
But folks want to play those games like Egypt and Nubia are the same thing. I guess all Ethiopians are the same too?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Doug will school you shortly, I've got to go out and grab something to eat "Ancient Nubians" and "Modern Nubians" , both European constructs,
Posts: 42929 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Doug will school you shortly, I've got to go out and grab something to eat "Ancient Nubians" and "Modern Nubians" , both European constructs,
Africa’s 55 countries are a European construct. There is still a difference between the countries no?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
It is simple. "Nubia" as a term has multiple different meanings based on context. In the context of Egyptology it has always signified a "racial group" separate from the ancient Egyptians. This is the significance of George Reisner. In another context, it refers to certain populations living in the region between Lower Sudan and Upper Egypt as in the Nubians of Aswan. And it also refers to this contemporary geographical region as well.
The word "Nubia" was not used by African populations in the Nile Valley in 5,000 B.C. It was not a population identifier, cultural identifier, geographic identifier or national boundary. This is something made up by Reisner. Yes there were cultures and populations in this area but they were not called "Nubian". Just like there were no "French" in the region known as France in 5,000 BC either. Everybody understands that but then acts confused when applied to "Nubia". If there was no "Nubia" or "France" in 5,000 B.C., then there couldn't be any "Nubian" or "French" DNA then either.
Both the A-Group and C-Group are only linked by the fact that they are populations that lived in the region called "Nubia" today but these cultures were not the same and actually there was a long gap between the existence of both. Hence lumping them together as part of being "Nubian" is not based on anything other than the convention set forth by Reisner.
When you use the word "Nubian" in an ancient context speaking of Egyptology, you are basically talking about a "racial" construct, where "Nubia" represents the border between "black African" culture and the "mediterranean/Eurasian" culture of Egypt, according to the racist theories of Reisner which are still pushed in Egyptology to this day. In that context, the name only exists to say that black Africans did not and could not move any further North along the Nile past Aswan.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Revert to Ta Nehesu instead of Nubia and the same lumping problems of peoples and places and eras doesn't go away.
That's why I suggest precise identifiers to allay the confusion.
It's rather complex but to each his own. If you want to call Intiu, Mentu, Kenset, Ta Seti, Irtet, Kau, Mekher, Tereres, Sethu, Uthekh, Wawat, Yam, Sai, Kerma, Kush, Napata, Meroe by the name Egypt go for it!
The word Egypt was never used by the Africans of the Nile Valley.
Is what's sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander?
quote:The word "Egypt" was not used by African populations in the Nile Valley in 5,000 B.C. It was not a population identifier, cultural identifier, geographic identifier or national boundary. This is something made up by Greeks. Yes there were cultures and populations in this area but they were not called "Egyptian". Just like there were no "French" in the region known as France in 5,000 BC either. Everybody understands that but then acts confused when applied to "Egypt". If there was no "Egypt" or "France" in 5,000 B.C., then there couldn't be any "Egyptian" or "French" DNA then either.
posted
I think Lioness got everyone fighting ghosts.
very good job at trolling... Cut it out.
It is quite clear Doug speaks on the usage of Nubian as a RACIAL classifier to partition Egyptians from other Africans.
Whether or not the term should be used at all as a regional Identifier should be debated elsewhere because of historical implications.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think doug means to say we shouldn't use the term Nubia at all because Nubian is a made up term and all Nubians and Egyptians are the same. Rather his proposal is that we stop using Nubia to pigeonhole known BLACK Africans who are of the Nile valley region.
Which is something I cosign cause clearly even till today the diversity in the region speaks against such artificial constructs. And we've seen overwhelming evidence showing how blurry the lines between being Nubian and egyptian can get phenotypicaly and culturally as we go back in time.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think doug means to say we shouldn't use the term Nubia at all because Nubian is a made up term and all Nubians and Egyptians are the same. Rather his proposal is that we stop using Nubia to pigeonhole known BLACK Africans who are of the Nile valley region.
wrong, wrong, wrong Doug will be correcting you shortly. He does mean to say we shouldn't use the term Nubia at all, yes You will notice he also doesn't use the word "Egyptian" when referring to what others call "ancient Egyptians". I pay attention to people's positions
Posts: 42929 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Xyyman, tell me if I'm ruining your thread, otherwise I'm continuing what I began in answer to your 2nd post as invited to do.
And Wally etc mentioned that there was no difference between Nubians and Egyptians
The 1st primary document on Ta Nehesu is of Egypt hacking it up.
quote:KING SNEFRU Year x+2 Hacking up TaNehesu. Bringing of 7,000 living prisoners, and 200,000 large and small cattle.
^ From the 2nd link given last page (who clicked it?).
After the Naqada Ta Seti became Ta Shemau, rifts with Qustul Ta Seti developed.
If Wally is right that Wawat means rebel I take it Upper Egypt was mad at Lower Nubia for not joining the state some of their Lower Nubian relatives started.
Various Nubians did join the state. Others screwed their face up at big government and abandoning maleable oral culture for stuck as written culture. Some felt Egypt belonged to them. Nubians were the ones restoring the Egyptian State some of the descendants of their relations helped establish. Thus unification, the Middle Kingdom, and the New Kingdom would never had come about without that set of Nubians who were or considered themselves Egyptian.
I dont care how white people use the word. This is how BEYOKU uses the word.
I see Ancient Egypt as "Multi-Ethnic" I see Ancient Nubia as "Multi Ethnic"
I see Ancient Nubians as being more ethnically diverse than Ancient Egyptians. See the Above posted by Tukuler with different ancient southern groups that we know are genetically, Linguistically, and culturally diverse : What we would describe TODAY as different "Ethnic" groups.
In Ancient Egypt there were no less than 5 Ethnic groups.....just as in modern times: Berbers, Cushitic speakers, Nilo Saharans, Egyptian Nile valley dwellers, Asiatics in the Delta and Sinai.......they all translate back into ancient times. And while some of these groups may have be been outside the Egyptian STATE...they were/are ALL within today's national Border and more importantly *they ALL likely contributed to the people of the region in prehistoric times*.
White folks ideas about egyptian race be damned. Egypt and Nubia are not the "Same thing" because each region contained different Ethnic groups. EVEN When most of their ancestors come from a common migration event they are still as different as Ethiopian Semites are from Somali. Or Somali from Oromo......not the same thing.
Even when Egyptians and Nubians are both black...you still have Ethnic and cultural differences to deal with. Lay off that pipe.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Again, the point of my quote was to "quote" a DNA studie done on Kerma culture not to reinstate Nubia as a legitimate term or designation. Reading this thread, historical references, documents and DNA studies has lead to some confusion for me and I was looking for clarification on A group Kerma culture and C group. That is all. Now as I read more I see that the long history of NE Africa and the diverse groups that are in the region can lead general confusion.
A Group, C Group, and Kerma are all different cultures based on material remains. How biologically different the people of the cultures were is a different issue.
quote:Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?
No. Reisner was wrong as Lioness has shown in her post. Lioness is like a broken clock.
quote:Question 2. What is the difference if any genetically and culturally between, Afro Asiatic, Kushitic, Nubian, South Sudandic and Egyptian cultures?
Afro-Asiatic is a LANGUAGE phylum. Cushitic is a sub-family or branch of Afro-asiatic. Nubian describes peoples of the region of Nubia but is also a linguistic term for a branch of the Nilo-Saharan language phylum just like Sudanic. I suggest you do some independent research on your own and read up on these things.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: So now there is no difference between Egyptians and Nubians? Ancient OR Modern?
To the people arguing this....what are y'all smoking?
I don't think the argument applies to modern Nubians who speak languages of a different family but moreso perhaps to the ancient Nubians. Really, I'm sensing a Maria C. Gatto syndrome with this one. For those who don't know Gatto is an archaeologist whose specialty is Nubiology, Egyptology and a little Saharan archaeology. I've noticed in her works she teeters back and forth on whether ancient and predynastic Lower Nubians were the same as Upper Egyptians. Culturally there were some differences but also similarities that suggested cultural entanglement. As for biological, there are many features held in common in regards to skeletons and crania.
To me the differences between Egypt and Nubia are same as that between ancient Greece and ancient Macedonia. Except now you have Greeks claiming Macedonia as Greek with no differences at all for nationalistic and political purposes. You don't see that with Nubia, perhaps because of the long history of racist bias against Nubia as a "black" civilization while Egypt was not.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.
The differences among themselves are what we today would recognize as different Ethnicities of the same race of people.
Yoruba and Igbo are damn near identical in genomic research...they inhabit the same country, they are not the same thing.
Oromo and Somali are damn near identical, Oromo just have more variability. Much of their ancestry comes from the same admixture event. Somali are not "Ethiopian" even though some Somali live IN modern Ethiopia. Insert Amhara, all 3 groups are Horn Africans. All 3 have a Omotic genetic substratum....maximized in Oromo, minimized in Somali. All 3 have Levantine ancestry, maximized in Amhara, minimized in Somali. The same type of ancestry cline is going to be similar among Egypt and Nubians.....Egyptians are going to have Ancestry that is absent or minimized in Nubians and Nubians are going to have ancestry that is minimized or Absent Egyptians.
The fact that Euroclowns have played race games does not make these populations "the same". Saying they are "the same" dumbs things way down to a simpleton level and ES is years past that....or is it?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Again, the point of my quote was to "quote" a DNA studie done on Kerma culture not to reinstate Nubia as a legitimate term or designation. Reading this thread, historical references, documents and DNA studies has lead to some confusion for me and I was looking for clarification on A group Kerma culture and C group. That is all. Now as I read more I see that the long history of NE Africa and the diverse groups that are in the region can lead general confusion.
A Group, C Group, and Kerma are all different cultures based on material remains. How biologically different the people of the cultures were is a different issue.
quote:Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?
No. Reisner was wrong as Lioness has shown in her post. Lioness is like a broken clock.
quote:Question 2. What is the difference if any genetically and culturally between, Afro Asiatic, Kushitic, Nubian, South Sudandic and Egyptian cultures?
Afro-Asiatic is a LANGUAGE phylum. Cushitic is a sub-family or branch of Afro-asiatic. Nubian describes peoples of the region of Nubia but is also a linguistic term for a branch of the Nilo-Saharan language phylum just like Sudanic. I suggest you do some independent research on your own and read up on these things.
Actually I am well versed, I was asking for genetic links to these cultures/languages
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Were there any "Cushitic" tribes (like the ancestors of the Beja) in Lower "Nubia" in the Dynastic period? I ask because the Lower "Nubians" (and Puntites) looked indistinguishable from the ancient Egyptians.
As for the Berbers that were apparently part of ancient Egypt's "multi-ethnic" mix ... which ones are we referring to? Is it the Siwa or the Coastal Berbers?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What if there were no Euroclowns? What if we filter out the academic racialisms many unwittingly keep alive and promote via protest? What if we analyze and interpret data ignoring the presenters' interpretations until arriving at our own conclusions?
The more one posts the clearer one's viewpoint becomes. Expanding on a point helps others get past misconceptions they may have about a poster's orientation. Me? Now I drink Marley Mellow Mood green tea before coming here. It's not easy holding back but if I get hot behind a post I'm trying to wait a few hours or a day before replying. Doing that I sometimes find I imagined something that the poster didn't actually say or imply.
Sophistication? Many levels at ES. Too bad for gullible undiscerners. Too bad for readers tuning out a poster because they don't like her/him. It shows when a question is asked that's already been handled in the thread. A limiting approach but its cool I guess.
Me? I'm pleased ES has grown up and there no longer is such a thing as an ES position. I'm glad ES displays a variety of disagreeing yet validly supported opinions. Each contributing member must develop a background of and on their own. No other way can anyone sift the supportable from the Purely D Bullshit. That's something none of us can do for another, not really.
Also the jiving around's got its place too. Don't let jive artist take your mind though! Could be such a one deliberately plays cat and mouse for any number of personal reasons. What I'm talking 'bout? Think of this thread and see Oshun's When did Egypt and Nubia differentiate thread (link). Notice what ones say there but pretend not to know here and now yet sitting on that knowledge not sharing it.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: look, either the Old Kingdom Egyptians were Nubian or they weren't
Why would the Old Kingdom Egyptians have to be "Nubian"? They (Upper Egypt) could just have a common origin with certain "Nubian" Nations - especially in Lower "Nubia".
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Who said Nehesi was a nation? YOU said it was a reference to all Africans to the South of Egypt. I don't agree with that usage. So really it is on YOU to show how that is how it was used.
posted
Great point and observation. I think the best way to approach this is to compare the various different groups and tribes and evaluated them individually. This means certain people would be closer to certain groups in Egypt while others wont be.
A good example is the A group people who were obviously distinct from Egyptians culturally in many ways but similar in others. These people were enemies of the Newly formed dynastic state and were defeated and eventually incorporated into Egypt despite their similarities.
Its rather simplistic to pretend that the Egyptins and Nubians were the same people PERIOD despite differences in burial customs, dress, language etc. The Irish and English to this day see themselves as separate people, they have different histories, different language, religious out look and Native gods, and to a certain extent a difstinct look and physical features. People will say the Irish and English are the same people but the actual Irish/English will tell you different.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.
The differences among themselves are what we today would recognize as different Ethnicities of the same race of people.
Yoruba and Igbo are damn near identical in genomic research...they inhabit the same country, they are not the same thing.
Oromo and Somali are damn near identical, Oromo just have more variability. Much of their ancestry comes from the same admixture event. Somali are not "Ethiopian" even though some Somali live IN modern Ethiopia. Insert Amhara, all 3 groups are Horn Africans. All 3 have a Omotic genetic substratum....maximized in Oromo, minimized in Somali. All 3 have Levantine ancestry, maximized in Amhara, minimized in Somali. The same type of ancestry cline is going to be similar among Egypt and Nubians.....Egyptians are going to have Ancestry that is absent or minimized in Nubians and Nubians are going to have ancestry that is minimized or Absent Egyptians.
The fact that Euroclowns have played race games does not make these populations "the same". Saying they are "the same" dumbs things way down to a simpleton level and ES is years past that....or is it?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Also lets not get it twisted, the Egyptians were a mix of various different tribes as well. An Egyptian from Aswan probably spent his life never meeting an Egyptian from Pi-Ramses or Naukratis or some other Delta Coastal town and if they did they'd have trouble understanding each other despite their cultural and linguistic similarities.
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Look at things from a biological standpoint is relatively easy for me as I can trust my own interpretation but looking at populations from a cultural standpoint is interesting because I have to trust the intepretations of many.
From a Cultural standpoint how should we view origin and continuity between inhabitants of the region.
For instance beyoku mentions the differences between pastoralism and farming. The first know evidence suggestive of domestication was in lower Nubia. we see many examples of how this culture diffused up the nile into the GreatLakes as well as towards the Sahara. But that same site (basically Nabta playa) is regarded the precursor of dynastic Egyptian culture. The first known nome was of nilo saharan peopling.
Argriculturally speaking the Fayum is said to house the first evidence of what know now as Egyptian sedentism iirc. Do we credit the fertile crescent for Egyptian agriculture? ...And even if so we still see stark dissimilitudes between early near eastern and egyptian cultures clearly not indicative of a common origin.
So is egyptian culture a subset/branch of an nile valley umbrella centered around what we now consider Nubian? is it a near-East/african hybrid? Or is it spontaneous with minor influences from Nubia, the Sahara and the near east?
This is not a question about Genetics, physical anthropology or linguistics. I'm talking mostly material culture and foundations of post Neolithic modern civilization.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: look, either the Old Kingdom Egyptians were Nubian or they weren't
That depends on which Egyptians. Before the first dynasty Kmt (Egypt) was divided into two countries--Ta Mehu (Lower Egypt) and Ta Shemau (Upper Egypt). Each country was further divided into sepati or provinces which likely derived from tribal territories.
Archaeology shows the southernmost sepat of Upper Egypt to be part of A-Group/Qustul Culture.
Traditionally, the view was that these Nubians of the 1st Sepat were assimilated into Naqada Egyptian culture.
Interestingly, the name of the 1st Sepat is Ta Khentet meaning 'Land of Before' or 'Land of Prior'. The 1st sepat was also called Ta Seti meaning 'Land of the Bow' which happened to be the same exact name as the Qustul Kingdom of Lower Nubia.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Were there any "Cushitic" tribes (like the ancestors of the Beja) in Lower "Nubia" in the Dynastic period? I ask because the Lower "Nubians" (and Puntites) looked indistinguishable from the ancient Egyptians.
The Cushitic language group has largely been confined to the Horn of Africa. The Beja language, To-Bedawi, was originally classified as 'North Cushitic' but recently linguists are now considering it as part of its own distinct branch that's intermediate between Cushitic and Egyptic. Historians have typically identified the Blemmyes of the Roman to Medieval periods to be the direct ancestors of the Beja. Though the Blemmyes are said to be part of migrations from the west of the Nile. There are claims that the Medjay of dynastic times were also ancestral in that they were eventually absorbed by the Blemmyes.
Ancient Nubian Cultures: 2400–1550 BC
quote:As for the Berbers that were apparently part of ancient Egypt's "multi-ethnic" mix ... which ones are we referring to? Is it the Siwa or the Coastal Berbers?
The Berber languages are actually too young to have existed that far back in dynastic times. The theory is that Berber descended from a Lybico-Berber speaking people. These people lived in both the coasts and in the Siwa oases, but it's not clear what language(s) the people of the other oases spoke. Though I have my own theory that the ancient Libyans are connected with the predynastic people of Ta Mehu (Lower Egypt).
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Actually there was no pre-dynastic country Lower Egypt. Upper Egypt conquered the un-united delta peoples and created Lower Egypt.
Pastoralism is just an economy. Nothing stops any of hunting, fishing, and dirt farming being practiced alongside herding.
Not that I'm their fan but I began with Smith and Vercoutter back in 1981.
quote:
From about -7000, and above all during the humid periods towards the end of Neolithic times, there seems to have been a common material culture throughout Nubia, from the edge of the Ethiopian Highlands to the Al-Kab region and even as far north as Middle Egypt. It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. Until this time very similar, if not identical funeral customs, pottery, stone and, later, metal instruments are found from Khartoum in the south to Matuar, near Asyut, in the north. They show how similar the various regions were as regards social organization, religious beliefs and funeral rites, as well as the general way of life, in which hunting, fishing and animal husbandry were associated with an as yet crude form of agriculture.
This must've been floating in my head all these years I've boosted Pharaonic Egypt as a Sudanese product.
But Baines and Malek*,quoted again below, are behind my postings of the Khartoumian as the 'birth' of the cultures that became Upper Egypt. The Upper Egypt conquering ever northward through Middle Egypt and on to the Delta (which wasn't a Lower Egypt polity until Upper Egypt made it so). Not that Delta Fayoum Middle Egypt didn't play their role in the development of what would be pharaonic Egypt, they did.
The idea of a North of the Sahara African origin for Egypt denies the SudanNileValley and its ccomplementary Saharo-'Sudanese' Neolithic reality and major importance.
No genetic inferences can contradict the interdisciplinary evidences.
* Baines & Malek alluded to above
quote:
The Nubian cultures of this period, which are found as far south as Khartoum, are not sharply distinct from those of Egypt. There was probably exchange over the whole area, and no central political authority. The cultural demarcation with the Nubian A group, which becomes noticeable south of Gebel el Silsila in Naqada II, probably accompanies the beginnings of state organization in Egypt and the definition of a political frontier. This process leads into the early dynastic period, in which Egypt is united, within boundaries comparable to those of later periods, under a single ruler.
Naqada II marks the beginning of (Upper) Egypt Nubia beef.
According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the C-Group peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Berber branch.The Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of Berber origin, including the terms for sheep and water (e.g., Nile). This in turn suggests that the C-Group population — which, along with the Kerma Culture, inhabited the Nile Valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers — spoke Afro-Asiatic languages.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The Berber languages are actually too young to have existed that far back in dynastic times.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also lets not get it twisted, the Egyptians were a mix of various different tribes as well. An Egyptian from Aswan probably spent his life never meeting an Egyptian from Pi-Ramses or Naukratis or some other Delta Coastal town and if they did they'd have trouble understanding each other despite their cultural and linguistic similarities.
I'm not sure about that. Upper to Lower Egypt was relatively quick trip on the Nile. We typically define cultural differences in Africa with gods. Egypt had different gods everywhere you go. In that sense, Ancient Egypt was as different from it'self as it was Libya or the Congo. The linguistic differences were probably more pronounced because they were separate nations for so long.
I surmised that Upper and Lower Egyptians saw the other as people they encounter frequently at cities along the Nile(most people didn't live in large cities but they probably visited them), people with a different language but one they may have learned to help unify the nation, people who were culturally different yet they understood and were probably entertained by the differences.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
Its 530 miles between Aswan and Cairo, a large amount of land by even todays standards and Cairo is not even in the Delta. Ancient Egypt had 42 Nomes which probably stemmed from regional tribal authority.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also lets not get it twisted, the Egyptians were a mix of various different tribes as well. An Egyptian from Aswan probably spent his life never meeting an Egyptian from Pi-Ramses or Naukratis or some other Delta Coastal town and if they did they'd have trouble understanding each other despite their cultural and linguistic similarities.
I'm not sure about that. Upper to Lower Egypt was relatively quick trip on the Nile. We typically define cultural differences in Africa with gods. Egypt had different gods everywhere you go. In that sense, Ancient Egypt was as different from it'self as it was Libya or the Congo. The linguistic differences were probably more pronounced because they were separate nations for so long.
I surmised that Upper and Lower Egyptians saw the other as people they encounter frequently at cities along the Nile(most people didn't live in large cities but they probably visited them), people with a different language but one they may have learned to help unify the nation, people who were culturally different yet they understood and were probably entertained by the differences.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Prof Manu Ampin - Kushologist explains Kush v. Nubia and Reisner's racist mistakes and why everything you know about South of the 3rd cataract is wrong starts 50:21
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
The Sudan to Alexandria is about 680 miles. Ain't that like two days on the boat?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Actually there was no pre-dynastic country Lower Egypt. Upper Egypt conquered the un-united delta peoples and created Lower Egypt.
Pastoralism is just an economy. Nothing stops any of hunting, fishing, and dirt farming being practiced alongside herding.
Not that I'm their fan but I began with Smith and Vercoutter back in 1981.
quote:
From about -7000, and above all during the humid periods towards the end of Neolithic times, there seems to have been a common material culture throughout Nubia, from the edge of the Ethiopian Highlands to the Al-Kab region and even as far north as Middle Egypt. It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. Until this time very similar, if not identical funeral customs, pottery, stone and, later, metal instruments are found from Khartoum in the south to Matuar, near Asyut, in the north. They show how similar the various regions were as regards social organization, religious beliefs and funeral rites, as well as the general way of life, in which hunting, fishing and animal husbandry were associated with an as yet crude form of agriculture.
This must've been floating in my head all these years I've boosted Pharaonic Egypt as a Sudanese product.
I wonder what he means by Lower Egypt becoming distinct? Possibly migrants? Because Lower Egypt wasn't as developed and culturally began to change to be more like Upper Egypt. Why if they had all the advancements of the same culture already?
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Actually there was no pre-dynastic country Lower Egypt. Upper Egypt conquered the un-united delta peoples and created Lower Egypt.
When I said country, I didn't necessarily mean a united nation or polity but rather a region.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What about the C group?
According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the C-Group peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Berber branch.The Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of Berber origin, including the terms for sheep and water (e.g., Nile). This in turn suggests that the C-Group population — which, along with the Kerma Culture, inhabited the Nile Valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers — spoke Afro-Asiatic languages.
I have no doubt that the C-Group spoke Afro-Asiatic but as to what specific brand or form is the question. The hypothesis that the C-Group spoke Berber comes exclusively from the fact that the modern Nobiin Nubian language has Berber root words specifically for certain domesticates or livestock, even though the ancestors of the Nobiin came from the western desert where they no doubt had contact with Berber speakers. In regards to the C-Group of pharaonic times again, I don't think it's fair to speak of "Berber" that far back when Berber didn't even exist but rather its ancestor. Complicating things further is the fact that ‘Afro-Asiatic’ or as I prefer to call it Afro-Erythrean itself originated in northeast Africa likely in the very vicinity of Egypto-Nubian Nile Valley. As such, where the ancestor of one subgroup ended and another began is impossible to know. For all we know there were multiple Afro-Erythrean languages spoken in the region, some of which may have Berber features or words but not be actually Berber. Look at how linguists are now classing the Beja language as its own separate branch distinct from the Cushitic it was previously assigned to.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
"It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. "
I wonder what he means by Lower Egypt becoming distinct? Possibly migrants? Because Lower Egypt wasn't as developed and culturally began to change to be more like Upper Egypt. Why if they had all the advancements of the same culture already?
In the quote those co-authors mean the limestoned region (esSilsila to delta) as Lower Valley or Egyptian and the sandstoned region (Silsila and south) as Upper Valley or Nubian. The -3000 distinction is in-situ cultural (eg language writing etc). It's not demic migrational (eg some transplanted dynastic race), afaicmo.
That quote's in the 2nd UNESCO volume available online from the South Africans.
They weren't meaning Lower Egypt specifically but don't play Delta Fayoum Middleegypt cheap, so to speak. Though not into big government those inhabitants had well developed cultures in the predynastic. Though of course the conquerors displaced much of it.
Please share more of your insights.
Meanwhile I'll use this post for a little on non-Valley Fayoum type culture and contribution. Try to read past the inexcusable racialisms
If this is down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed. For contrast see 2 posts below.
Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: When I said country, I didn't necessarily mean a united nation or polity but rather a region.
Gotcha loud and clear. I should a asked for clarity on your use of country, sorry. Remember that old Yam an Extensive Kingdom thread? Link I can't find anything in English on Tamazight origins. I'm stuck with Behren's Jebel Marra / El Fasher circle of origin which is south of Gilf Kebir or nearby Ta Temeh. The former is outside the old Capsian range and the latter within it and so maybe a better candidate.
Whatever each spoke, the people of Temeh and Yam interacted. I wouldn't doubt each learning something from the other.
The spread of language may be 'marked' by the east to west return migration of one of the U6a(?) subclades and a young E-M81 (or whatever they call it nowadays) related clade.
If I'm down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed.
Personally I think Tamazight is much older than 2000 years ago.
Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Neolithic Period to Egypt's Dynasty 1 by Bruce B. Williams, Research Associate Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago Cultures of Northern Egypt
From the western delta to south of the Fayum, the cultures of northern Egypt occur largely in single sites or restricted areas, rather than extensive horizons. The emergence of distinct cultural traditions in northern Egypt has often been connected to the later canonical division between Upper and Lower Egypt, although these early cultures were actually located in large part south of the Delta in areas assigned to Upper Egypt. In order of appearance, the site phases are Merimda (early and main) at the western edge of the delta; Fayum A; sites near the northern shore of Lake Oarun el-Omani and Maadi just south of modern Cairo; and possibly Buto, in the northwest delta.
1. Domestic Economies. The domestic economies of northern Egypt were substantially supported by agriculture which concentrated on the cultivation of cereals. Animals such as sheep, goats, cattle, and dogs were kept; fish and a wide range of animals were taken. Even hippopotamus bones occur in the settlements (Hayes 1965: 93, 112). Hunting this dangerous animal requires the coordinated tactics of bands or crews (but see Eiwanger 1988; 44).
2. Structures and Settlements. Like earlier playa settlements, most habitations were light, irregular or oval structures made of posts and reeds, sometimes plastered with mud. Many had hearths and circular storage pits nearby, some of which were lined with baskets or mud. At Maadi, some light structures were rectangular. The settlements had no regular plan, but part of a ditch and palisade were found at Maadi, in addition to large communal storage areas. Merimda contained a number of oval structures about two meters long, built of mud or mud slabs with floors below ground level. Sometimes a small jar would be imbedded in the floor near one end of the oval, and a stick or hippopotamus tibia would be plastered against the wall near the opposite end (Hayes 1965: 105). The buildings, some arranged as though on a lane (Hayes 1965: 105), were built only in restricted areas, probably for a special purpose (Eiwanger 1982: 68). They may be related to structures at Maadi that were sunk into the ground over two meters and approached by steps. One very large (10 x 6 x 2 m) and elaborate brick-lined sunken structure had a special entry and a niche. It was found with a cemetery and large deposits of fish and pottery vessels, many containing grain. These structures at Merimda and Maadi, especially the large building, may represent a tradition of religious architecture (Anonymous 1986).
3. Religious Practice. Other evidence of religious practice includes burials, deposits, and possibly structural features. Early Merimda contained a small cemetery of contracted burials, mostly placed with the heads south, on the right side. Later, burials in the Merimda levels were oriented irregularly (Eiwanger 1982; Hayes 1965: 112-13). In the el-Omari and Maadi phases, burials were made in cemeteries, some of them very large. Grave goods were deposited with later burials, and some later graves have simple dolmen-like superstructures. Even some goats were buried at Heliopolis with grave goods (Debono and Mortenson 1988: 39, 46-48). Female figurines and an eggshaped terra-cotta head from Merimda are not readily connected to known traditions, but a deposit with axes and a hippopotamus figurine (Eiwanger 1982: 76-80; 1988; 46) and the hippopotamus tibia used as steps may be forerunners of Egyptian magical practices.
4. Manufactured Goods. The handmade pottery of earliest Merimda was relatively fine, but apart from some stands, the mostly ovoid shapes were simpler than later pottery. Many vessels were pattern burnished with a pebble. Some vessels have a band of incised herringbone decoration, a feature that occurs both in Palestine and elsewhere in northern Africa (Eiwanger 1984: 61). The pottery of later Merimda was coarser, with vegetable temper. Shapes remained simple, but knobs and lugs were sometimes applied (Hayes 1965: 106-107; Eiwanger 1979: 28-38, 56; 1988: 15-33, pls, 1-32). Most vessels were burnished, with a dark surface color. This simple pottery continued at Maadi. Only a few pieces were decorated in red paint on a light ground, and the finer red and black burnished vessels were accompanied by much coarse dark pottery, and some very large storage jars (Ibrahim and Seeher 1987: pls. 2,2 and 28,2). In other industries, the stone vessels of Maadi were more elaborate than those found at Merinda (Hayes 1965:126). Copper was also worked at Maadi from imported ores.
5. Trade. Trade and contacts expanded greatly between the time of Merimda and Maadi, but imports from the East primarily consisted of raw materials such as copper ore and asphalt, or oils; most objects were made locally or regionally, although wavy-handled jars were imported from southwest Asia and some vessels and other objects were imported or imitated from Upper Egypt (Kaiser 1985: 70; Ibrahim and Seeher 1984; vorr der Way 1987; 242-247, 256-257).
6. End of Northern Egypt. Maadi ended early in the second phase (II) of Upper Egypt's Naqada culture; Kaiser 1985: fig.10). The settlement seems to have been finally destroyed by fire (Hayes 1965: 123). Maadi was the last of Lower Egypt's cultures in the area, although Buto in the Delta where a settlement with a cemetery has recently been found may continue (von der Way 1986; 1987: 242-247, including Naqada II pottery; Kaiser 1985: fig.10).
7. Summary. In northern Egypt, a large number of small, shifting villages probably sustained a few more permanent large settlements (Eiwanger 1987: fig.9). Consolidated in the area of Helwan and Maadi, these centers transcended the shifting earlier habitations without eliminating cultural variations (Kaiser 1985: 67), a contrast with the more uniform Naqada culture of Upper Egypt.
[...]
Most importantly, the earliest known permanent settlements in Lower Egypt were made in the southwest with the first one being in the Fayum!
The 1st sepat of Lower Egypt, Mennefer (Memphis) was the Egyptian capital first established by Narmer after his alleged conquest of the Delta, yet the predynastic culture of that sepat as well as the last two sepati of Upper Egypt (the 21st and 22nd) all show strong cultural connections to the neolithic Fayum A culture which in turn descends from the Sahara.
[...]
"..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945
... archaeologist Barbara Barich in her work Archaeology and Environment in the Libyan Sahara commented on similarities between Capsian culture farther west in Libya and the neolithic cultures of Egyptian oases like the Fayum such as oval shaped reed huts, the hearths and storage pits, and even the bodies interred in the homes. Fekri Hassan cites other material evidence like ground axes, tabular flint tools, lens-shaped bifacial arrowheads, concave-based arrowheads, ostrich shells, amazonite beads, and bone points.
For more info on the archaeology you can read The Archaeology of the Faiyum and Western Delta.
[...]
Greek legends say that Libya was once ruled by Amazons the most prominent of which was a queen named Myrina. The name may be a Greek corruption of the name Merinit (Merineith) which was a popular name in Lower Egypt and was in fact the name of the Delta princess who became Narmer's queen after his conquest of the Delta.
[...]
... in the Tale of Sinuhe, Sinuhe himself who is a Delta man says when he traveled to Upper Egypt he thought he was in an entirely different country since the customs and looks of the people were different and he could barely understand their speech! Perhaps 'barely' is the key word here. That the Delta and Valley folk spoke dialects of the same language is the likely guess many Egyptologists make.
Thank you so much for your detailed response. I had no idea that the C group spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't think it's too pressumptious of me to think that there were multiple Afro-Asiatic "Nubian" tribes in Lower and Upper "Nubia" in the early Dynastic era.
I'm skeptical of the prospect that genetic tests will ever be carried out on Southern Egyptians from the early era - for obvious reasons. There won't be anything even remotely approaching the Abusir sample.
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As a mentioned earlier, if you understand the word "nubian" as essentially being an ancient derivation for the word "gold" you would understand why "nubian" is not a term that would ever have been used in AE. Gold was sacred to the AE and they did not use it for anyone they considered "non sacred". So beyond the simple rejection of "racism" in Egyptology there is a deeper cultural gap and misunderstanding promoted by this word.
Ancient Egypt became powerful partly because of the gold. Where did most of the gold come from in Ancient Egypt? Between Aswan and Lower Sudan. ANd who do you think were the first people to excavate and trade this gold? You got it, the same people they call "nubians" today. Most of the gold mines from ancient times are to the East and South of Aswan:
So just like all the other elements of Ancient culture in KMT, mining and gold came also from the so-called "Nubian" areas of Egypt. These populations would have grown in wealth and prestige from the use of gold and it is probable this is what caused the conflicts and the rise of the earliest dynasties.
The predynastic culture of Upper Egypt was based around towns like "Nubt" which was named for the fact it was a gold trading center, with areas further South.
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Thank you so much for your detailed response. I had no idea that the C group spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't think it's too pressumptious of me to think that there were multiple Afro-Asiatic "Nubian" tribes in Lower and Upper "Nubia" in the early Dynastic era.
Without written sources we can't be sure what languages were spoken or how many but it is very likely C-Group people were Afro-Erythrean (Afro-Asiatic) speakers. Linguists like Christopher Ehret have long postulated the Nile Valley to be a sprachbund with not only Afro-Asiatic but also Nilo-Saharan and who knows what other language phyla back in ancient times. Note that even the ancient Egyptic language shows Nilo-Saharan influence. One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). The earliest domestic cattle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East. ..
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans. (To learn more on how historians use linguistic evidence, see note at end of this article.)
From the Middle Nile, Egypt gained new items of livelihood between 5000 and 3000 B.C. One of these was a kind of cattle pen: its Egyptian name, s3 (earlier *sr), can be derived from the Eastern Sahelian term *sar. Egyptian pg3, "bowl," (presumably from earlier pgr), a borrowing of Nilo-Saharan *poKur, "wooden bowl or trough," reveals still another adoption in material culture that most probably belongs to this era...
quote:I'm skeptical of the prospect that genetic tests will ever be carried out on Southern Egyptians from the early era - for obvious reasons. There won't be anything even remotely approaching the Abusir sample.
Actually they already did such tests. Remember?! Interestingly, some of those Egyptians share the same paternal lineage as A Group Nubians. The area known today as Sudan may have been the scene of pivotal human evolutionary events, both as a corridor for ancient and modern migrations, as well as the venue of crucial past cultural evolution. Several questions pertaining to the pattern of succession of the different groups in early Sudan have been raised. To shed light on these aspects, ancient DNA (aDNA) and present DNA collection were made and studied using Y-chromosome markers for aDNA, and Y-chromosome and mtDNA markers for present DNA. Bone samples from different skeletal elements of burial sites from Neolithic, Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods in Sudan were collected from Sudan National Museum. aDNA extraction was successful in 35 out of 76 samples, PCR was performed for sex determination using Amelogenin marker. Fourteen samples were females and 19 were males. To generate Y-chromosome specific haplogroups A-M13, B-M60, F-M89 and Y Alu Polymorphism (YAP) markers, which define the deep ancestral haplotypes in the phylogenetic tree of Y-chromosome were used. Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Gotcha loud and clear. I should a asked for clarity on your use of country, sorry. Remember that old Yam an Extensive Kingdom thread? Link I can't find anything in English on Tamazight origins. I'm stuck with Behren's Jebel Marra / El Fasher circle of origin which is south of Gilf Kebir or nearby Ta Temeh. The former is outside the old Capsian range and the latter within it and so maybe a better candidate.
Whatever each spoke, the people of Temeh and Yam interacted. I wouldn't doubt each learning something from the other.
The spread of language may be 'marked' by the east to west return migration of one of the U6a(?) subclades and a young E-M81 (or whatever they call it nowadays) related clade.
If I'm down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed.
Personally I think Tamazight is much older than 2000 years ago.
Yes, I remember your Yam thread. I believe Temeh was located in the southern areas of Egypt's Western Deserts and NOT in Nubia whereas Tjehenu was in the northern part of the Western Desert.
I believe Tamazight itself maybe 2,000 years old but that it's ancestor Libyco-Tamazight is what's older and accounts for the Tamazight words and features observed in older languages. The same way I think Semitic is derived from an older supragroup that entered the Levant from Egypt.
This is the problem. The Nile Valley was a linguistic and cultural sprachbund comprised of not only Afro-Erythrean but also Nilo-Saharan and who knows what else! The Egyptians who were the only literate group in the area only provided us a small glimpse of this diversity in their texts when they cite ethnies and places in the Nile with foreign glosses.
Mind you, the only other ancient sprachbunds as documented in historical texts are not far from Egypt-- the Balkan Peninsula via Greek texts of other Indo-European languages as well as more ancient non-I-E Agean languages, and Mesopotamia via Sumerian and Semitic with Elamite and Hurro-Urartian.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ..first you are going to have to take some time out to differentiate the most likely aboriginal groups, and what lineages these group carried to know what is considered admixture upon what base.
IF you notice a common theme it is the presence of Nilo-Saharan people and technology mostly on the Nile and in the Sahara while Afro-asiatics are mostly associated with the Horn and Red Sea. Hypothesizing what lineages are associated with "Cushitics" please read the captoions on some of the images and try to figure out what "Cushitic" admixiture or "absorption" on by Nilo-Saharan and Bantu on the Nile or in Kenya would look like.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The Chronology isn't wrong, it is made up. George Reisner made up the concept of the ancient "Nubians" and was openly and blatantly racist about distinguishing them from Egyptians. His whole model for "Nubia" was based on "race" and distinguishing "Savage negroes" from "civilized Egyptians". The problem was that there was no monolithic entity in the ancient Nile Valley called "Nubia". No such geographic, ethnic, cultural and political entity existed prior to late Egyptian history (The Roman Era). That would make "Nubia" the oldest nation state on earth but no such thing existed.
Reisner used the term "A-group Nubian" to identify the populations in Upper Egypt and around Aswan based on pottery styles, not even skeletal remains. The racial characteristics were completely fabricated. However, the so-called "A-Group" were the precursors for and basis for the predynastic of AE. In Upper Egypt during the predynastic the town "Nubt" (another term for gold trading town) was one of the main centers for predynastic culture. It is now called "Naqada" based on the arabic name. "Nubt" is the closest thing to "Nubian" in ancient Egyptian language and it literally meant "golden" as an adjective. The gold trade is what made Egypt powerful and much of that gold originated in Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan, precisely in the areas of the A-Group. So the "golden culture" based on gold mining and trade in gold is the basis for the rise of the Egyptian culture and wealth and most of the gods and patterns of culture originated from there. These people know this which is why they made up "Nubia" as a way to segregate the Nile Valley into "superior" white/eurasian Egyptians and "savage negro Nubians".
And the whole idea of a timeline for ancient "Nubia" goes back to the racist George Reisner.
Modern Egyptology still upholds his racist models of "Nubia" even though they claim otherwise.
quote: Reisner died at Giza in Harvard Camp in 1942. In his final years, despite near total blindness, he continued working, dictating manuscripts to a secretary. By the end of his career, he had explored arguably the most famous archaeological site in the world (the Giza Pyramids), discovered thousands of artifacts and hundreds of artistic masterpieces, rewritten the history of Nubia and three millennia of Egypto–Nubian relations, and permanently altered the course of modern archaeology. He is buried in the American cemetery in Mari Girgis, Cairo.
Here is a recent pamphlet on "Nubia" from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts:
quote: For thousands of years, many peoples have settled along the Nile River from the Mediterranean coast to the interior of Africa. As one moves from the north to the south, one would observe that the physical features of these Nile dwellers change gradually. The variations are barely noticeable from one village to the next. But, over longer distances, one can see dif- ferences in skin color, facial features, and height and hear several different languages. This is as true today as it was thousands of years ago.
The peoples of Nubia are an indigenous African population. They have occupied the middle portion of the Nile Valley since at least 6000 B.C. and likely for much longer. The Greeks and Romans called all the territory south of Egypt by the Greek name Ethiopia, which meant "Land of the Burnt Faces." This described its people, who had dark brown or black skin. Even the name Sudan is an Arabic translation of the Greek name meaning "(Land of the) Blacks." According to the latest studies, modern-day Nubians are most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Nubians.
While both Egyptians and Nubians are indigenous African peoples, the ancient Egyptians represented themselves in their art differently from their southern neighbors. Egyptian artists used a red-brown paint for the skin color of Egyptian men, yellow for Egyptian women, and a dark brown or black for all Nubians. A painting from the tomb chamber of an Egyptian queen, in figure 8, shows her with black skin color, indicating that she was Nubian or of Nubian descent.
Characteristic clothing also distinguishes Nubians in Egyptian art. No- tice, for example, the long, beaded Nubian belt in the painting of a Nubi- an soldier on his tomb stela (gravestone) in figure 9. Nubians can also be identified by their hairstyles. For example, figure 1 0 shows a procession of four different races of mankind. The Nubians have short, curly hairstyles distinctive from those of the Egyptians. Some Nubian men dyed their hair red and adorned it with ostrich feathers. This hairstyle is depicted in the Egyptian tomb paintings in figures 7 and 10.
Then they turn around and start contradicting themselves:
quote: Prehistoric Nubia In early prehistoric times, nomadic cattle herders occupied most of (6000-3100 b.c.) north Africa, including northern Nubia. In southern Nubia, a very different and highly advanced culture developed, known today as the Khartoum Mesolithic. Remains of this eight-thousand-year-old culture have been found near Khartoum, the modern-day capital of the Sudan. It was closely related to other ancient cultures spread across north and central Africa.
The Khartoum Mesolithic people subsisted primarily by hunting and fishing. Their pottery, perhaps the oldest known in the world, is sophisti- cated and advanced. Unlike the early civilizations of Asia and the Near East, in Nubia the establishment of settlements and the production of pot- tery seem to have occurred before agriculture began.
The Neolithic Period (5000-3100 B.C.) showed considerable advances in Nubian civilization. This culture began creating human figurines, slate palettes for grinding cosmetics, and Black-topped red pottery.
They say the "Nubians" are older than "Egyptians" but somehow they don't put two and two together....
I have been reviewing this critique of the word "Nubia" and I'm finding it flawed. Doug uses the term "Africans" and that is also not a term the people of the region historically used to describe themselves so that type of argument cannot be used to not use "Nubians". George Reisner did not make up the word "Nubian" it goes back to the Romans. The term is similar to "Europe" it means "the various nations below Egypt".
If you want to say that the word has been racialized to mean "the various black nations below Egypt" you still can't say it's wrong. That is the problem with Doug's argument.
- If you say the term "Nubian" is used to separate and contrast Egyptian being "non-blacks" and if you believe ancient Egypt was also a black nation then the issue is not with the term "Nubian" the issue is with Egypt being a black Nation or not.
The fact is that ancient Egypt was a political entity with national boundaries and they had a word with virtually the same meaning as Nubian Nehesy (nHsy)
If you were to ban the word "Nubia" someone could still try to make an argument that Kushites were blacks and try to imply Egyptians were not.
So it's the same situation if you believe the Egyptians were black all these other groups of Kush, Meroe, Medjay,Iuntyw Seti,Shat, etc could be called "the various black African groups to the south of Egypt" and that could be used to try to imply the Egyptians weren't black but again those groups are all black so that doesn't matter and "Nubians were black" doesn't matter.
The issue is what the Egyptians were
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quote: Introduction Although the Nubian A-Group culture has been in the last century the subject of many important studies, and it is definitely one of the best known cultures in the prehistory of northeastern Africa, an updated revision of our knowledge, to include also the last findings from regions surrounding Lower Nubia, is missing. I shall use this opportunity to present a preliminary assessment of the state of the art, mainly focused on the new information acquired recently and its significance. I had the occasion to discuss with Francis Geus about the late prehistory of Nubia many times when I was working with him in 2003 on the Sudanese Prehistoric pottery from El Multaga. He was quite skeptical on my idea on the existence of more variants of the A-Group. For him the real A-Group was that described by Nordström in the 1970’s. In a way he was right.
History of research The A-Group culture was discovered at the beginning of the Twentieth century during the first archaeological salvage campaign, undertaken in the Egyptian Nubia for the construction of the Aswan Dam. A reassessment of its definition was the consequence of another salvage campaign, this time organized, in the 1960’s and in the Sudanese Nubia, by the UNESCO for the construction of Sadd el Ali , south of Aswan.
George A. Reisner, the archaeologist who worked in the Aswan area during the 1907/1908 season, was the first who identified evidence of non-Egyptian cultures south of the First Cataract (Reisner 1910). He divided them in "groups" labeled following the alphabetic letters: from the A-Group to the X-Group. `
This definition concerned only historic cultures while the prehistoric evidence was interpreted as Egyptian and followed the classification proposed in those years by Petrie for the Predynastic period (Petrie 1974). However, according to Reisner, there was a chronological shift between the Egyptian Predynastic and that from Nubia. As a matter of fact, at that time Egypt was seen as the nuclear area for cultural dynamics along the Nile, so the Nubian evidence had to be younger in date compared to the Egyptian one. In Reisner’s chronological se- quence the term A-Group defined the last phase of the Nubian prehistory, sup- posed to be contemporary to the end of Naqada III ( sensu Kaiser 1956; 1957) and the first two Egyptian dynasties (ca. 3100-2800 BC).
In spite of this cultural diversification, the material culture was described by Reisner as a whole. It is only thanks to Firth, who succeeded to Reisner in the work, and to Steindorff that the characteristic traits of the Nubian productions were initially brought to light and classified (Firth 1912; 1915; 1927; Steindorff 1935). A great improvement on the definition and knowledge of the A-Group was provided by the results of the UNESCO campaign in the Wadi Halfa reach and the Second Cataract area. Particularly, the work done by the Scandinavian Joint Expedition (Nordström 1972) and by the Oriental Institute of Chicago (Williams 1986) were of great im- portance. In those years there were also attempts to change Reisner’s terminology, but terms such as "Early Nubian" and "A-Hor izon", proposed respectively by Trigger (1965) and Adams (1977), did not obtain a great success. Worth to mention is the brilliant work done by Henry S. Smith (1966) on the B-Group funerary evidence. According to him, the B-Group as a cultural entity did not exist and the graves associated to it have to be mostly dated to the Early A-Group phase instead.
Since the 1990’s the A-Group culture has been the subject of a new series of studies, mostly based on old, and generally published, materials (Smith 1991; Gatto & Tiraterra 1996; Gatto 1997a; 1997b; 1998a; 1998b; 2000; Nordström 1996; 2002; 2004; in press, forthcoming; Rampersad 1999; Takamiya 2005). However, in the last years fresh data was also added from regions surrounding Lower Nubia, mainly the Libyan Desert (Gatto 2001-2002; Lange 2003) and Upper Egypt (Gatto 2003, in press a; in press b).
Spatial distribution (fig. 1) So far, evidence of the A-Group is mostly concentrated in the section of the Nile Valley that goes from Kubbaniya to Melik en Nasir (AA.VV. 1967; Bietak & Engelmayer 1963; Donner 1967-1968; Emery & Kirwan 1935; Firth 1911; 1912; 1915; 1927; Gatto in press b; Gezelius & Schönbäck n.d.; Griffith 1921; Junker 1919; Leclant 1961; Lal 1967; Mills 1967-1968; Mills & Nordström 1966; Nor- dström 1972; Piotrovsky 1964; 1967; Raue per. comm.; Reisner 1910; Simpson 1961; Smith 1962; Steindorff 1935; Verwers 1961; 1962; Williams 1986; 1989). It was found on 193 sites: 87 located on the West Bank, 99 on the East Bank and 7 on islands of the First and Second Cataracts. Of these, 126 are graveyards and 67 are habitation sites, the latter including also few rock shelters.
It must be pointed out that A-Group evidence was not always found in an A-Group context. I recently proved that in the First Cataract area A-Group material culture was present within Naqadian sites (Gatto & Tiraterra 1996; Gatto 1997b; 2000; 2003; in press b). The percentages of Egyptian and Nubian materials in the region differed completely and the Nubian component was always less than 20% (Gatto 2000). Following this, sites found in the area be- tween Kubbaniya and Metardul, previously associated to the A-Group, are now interpreted as part of the Naqadian settlement system
On the other hand, a long-term and stable presence of Nubian people in the area surrounding the First Cataract and from there northward up to Hierakonpolis and even Armant is well attested (Gatto 2003; in press a; in press b; Midant-Reynes & Buchez 2002) and has to be taken into consid- eration. Interesting to note, unique cultural features, unknown elsewhere, are there recorded and may indicate the presence of a regional variant of the Naqadian culture combining, particularly during the first half of the fourth millennium BC, both Egyptian and Nubian traditions (Gatto 2003; in press b).
The sites located between Kubbaniya and Metardul are 23 in total: 14 on the west bank consists on 11 cemeteries and 3 settlements; 9 cemeteries were found on the east bank; and some graves and remains within the habitation site were recorded at Elephantine island.
A-Group "nubia" was created explicitly by George Reistner based on a racist ideology that separated ancient "Nubia" as the boundary between black African culture and white Egyptian culture on the Nile Valley going into prehistory. That is found in his own writings on the subject. It is purely a made up framework based on archaeological remains, not human remains. No amount of wishful thinking and special pleading is going to change that. Prior to Reisner there was no such thing as an "ancient Nubia" outside of the Medieval period in the Nile Valley. Anything about Nubia going back to 3,000 B.C. is purely a made up arbitrary cultural and racial boundary defined by modern Egyptology. This is prior to the existence of any Egyptian state and prior to any existence of any organized polity uniting the cultures of lower Sudan into a single cultural or political entity. Hence it is no more valid than using the word "France" or "French" in 3,000 B.C.
The point being made is that this region between Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan is where of the many sites of ancient settlement in the Nile Valley occur prior to the predynastic of Egypt. Hence, claiming that the later culture of Ancient Egypt was partly derived from these other places but at the same time pretending that these cultures represent a "foreign" entity in later Egypt is a false dichotomy. For example, the first black topped pottery occurs in Lower Sudan, not Egypt. Therefore, that means black topped pottery is a "nubian" tradition. But these researchers wont say that. They will claim that "Nubian" pottery was different from ancient Egyptian pottery. That is silly.
quote: Nubian cultures: A and C - Group
Several cultures are attested in Nubia in the fourth to second millennia BC. They are in general divided by their pottery styles. The A - Group is known from Lower Nubia (in the North to el-Kubaniya, north of Aswan) and in the South to the Second Cataract. The A - Group people produced pottery but seem to have had a semi-nomadic lifestyle (some agriculture, including sheep and geese). From the end phase there are some elite cemeteries known, indicating a more complex social structure than before. The pottery is often very fine ('eggshell ware') and it is handmade. Geometrical patterns incised on the surface are typical. The A - Group disappeared with the Old Kingdom (in Egypt) from Lower Nubia. The whole area seems to have largely uninhabited, though A- Group pottery at Buhen indicates continuing population on a least a small scale.
The C - Group appears in the late third millennium BC (about the time of the Sixth Dynasty in Egypt). It is found in about the same area as the A-Group from the late Third to mid-second millennium BC (about the time of the 6th to early 18th Dynasty in Egypt). There are only a few settlement sites known, showing the C - Group people lived in huts; later (in phase III), there were fortified settlements. In the Middle Kingdom Lower Nubia was occupied by the Egyptians. For the Second Intermediate Period there are many C - Group cemeteries in Egypt, indicating that Nubians lived and worked there. They seem to have been employed as soldiers.
C - Group pottery is decorated with geometrical patterns incised on the surface (click here for examples found at Buhen, and Rifeh). Other vessels are red brown in colour with a black top. The pottery is always handmade.
quote: The earliest pottery found at Nabta Playa dates to around 9,800 BP. During the early and middle phases pottery consisted of wide bowls decorated using the rocker-stamp technique with lines and points made by combs or cords. During the early period, decoration typically covered the entire exterior surface (with the exception of dotted wavy line pottery and stem and leaf pottery where the decoration was around the upper part of the vessel). The earliest forms of decoration are in the "Early Khartoum Style", with the characteristic "dotted wavy Line Style" appearing later. They also used ostrich eggs, most likely to store water. The small number of shards of pottery (in comparison to later periods) has led to the suggestion that pottery was not for everyday use, but instead had a symbolic and social significance. Late Neolithic pottery resembled the early forms, but with more complex decoration. However, by 4900 BC this had been replaced by burnished and smooth wares, some of which were black topped. We do not know what cause this sudden shift in style.
quote: An over 4,400-year-old pottery workshop has been discovered near Kom Ombo Temple in Aswan, Upper Egypt as maintenance work was being carried out to reduce the level of underground water beneath the temple.
The workshop, the oldest ancient Egyptian workshop ever discovered, dating back to the Fourth Dynasty (2,613 - 2,494 BC), was found in the area located between the Crocodile Museum and the Nile's shore.
The structure has semi-circular holes of different sizes and contains a collection of cylindrical stone blocks used to melt and mix clay.
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