quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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then stop reading their articles fool

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Are they saying here that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians?

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:


xyyman comment: Seems like even this author did not realize that ONLY 3 mummies were analyzed and published for their autosomes. I tell you man, Europeans can spin. Even this author got faked out! As for the haplogroups the Abusir were mostly related to …you guess it!….Nubians!(Sudanese). [/QB]

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African Journals OnLine (AJOL) is the world’s largest online library of peer-reviewed, African-published scholarly journals.


https://www.ajol.info/index.php

_________________________________________

This is what you should be reading, African lie-free articles
 

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Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
How did the OP get his hands on the full text of the article? All I've been able to dig up on Google are abstracts. Which is a shame, because this looks like a cool paper.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
How did the OP get his hands on the full text of the article? All I've been able to dig up on Google are abstracts. Which is a shame, because this looks like a cool paper.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
How did the OP get his hands on the full text of the article? All I've been able to dig up on Google are abstracts. Which is a shame, because this looks like a cool paper.

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answer: illegal entry site
Also note preprint, different title, same authors

You're European right?
But you stay silent

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Are you saying the people who emailed me

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
To those who can read the ancient Egyptian text…is this true? ... Was there a difference and adversarial events between Nubians and Egyptians? Some of the old guards on here like Sage? And Wally etc mentioned that there was no difference between Nubians and Egyptians

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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then stop reading their articles fool

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Lioness ask why do I insist Europeans are liars and spin masters. Here is an example. See if you can spot the BS and spin. Hint! Check the time line


--------------------------
From Wiki

People also ask
What happened to Muhammad in 610 CE?
610 C.E. According to Muslim belief, at the age of 40, Muhammad is visited by the angel Gabriel while on retreat in a cave near Mecca. The angel recites to him the first revelations of the Quran and informs him that he is God's prophet

Why did Muhammad leave Mecca and where did he go?
The Islamic prophet Muhammad came to Medina following the migration of his followers in what is known as the Hijra (migration to Medina) in 622. He had been invited to Medina by city leaders to adjudicate disputes between clans from which the city suffered. He left Medina to return to and conquer Mecca in December 629.


----------------------------------
Residential Mobility and Dental Decoration in Early Medieval Spain: Results from the Eighth Century Site of Plaza del Castillo, Pamplona-Eleanna Prevedorou1

ABSTRACT

Excavations at Plaza del Castillo in Pamplona (northern Spain) revealed a large Islamic necropolis dating to the eighth century A.D., including the skeleton of an adult female showing intentional dental modification (PLA-159). While the practice of dental decoration was virtually absent in Medieval Spain, it is common in Africa and suggests that this individual was born in Africa and brought(slaves???) to Spain later in life. The historically documented occupation of Pamplona by Muslim groups from northern Africa between ca. 715 and

Among the types closest to the modifications observed in Plaza del Castillo are the ones reported for western Africa regions such as the Niger (Haour and Pearson, 2005:431), wherein the shape of the tooth was modified without affecting the occlusal surface. However, no parallel types have yet been found for the removal of the enamel up to the cervical area as observed


in individual PLA-159 (Fig. 3b).
Documentation of the practice of dental decoration in the Iberian Peninsula is scarce. Dental modifications have been observed as part of post-mortem ritual in prehistoric Spain (Campillo et al., 2001). One case of an adult male of a possible sub-Saharan origin with intentional dental modificationis documented from a more recent Islamic cemetery (13th to 15th centuries A.D.) in Spain (Gonzalo et al., 2001). A number of examples of dental modification are reported in Portugal in later periods, associated with the trade of slaves,mostly unpublished. !!!!! Thus, the occurrence, as well as the typology of intentional dental modification at Plaza del Castillo suggest an African origin for PLA-159 and argue for the presence of first-generation immigrants in the cemetery.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The time line do NOT support the popular belief about Muslim "invasion" in Iberia. I said so many times. Another lie by Europeans. These customs were indigenous to Iberia.


Anyways - back on topic.

Thanks Sage.

"Nubian Ta Seti used to extend to Edfu before state formation. "
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Edfu......Nubians? Geographic location?



 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Good find, we've been saying this on this site for 10+ years, and its sad that despite the evidence this is just now being studied with any serious intent.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Quit the Euroeroticism Xyyman...
Posts with "Europeans are *_Insert Negative Adjective_* will be removed completely I wont even try to salvage it...

Lioness stop baiting...

5 inane posts and an Illegal link removed //MOD
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Hey Lioness. I am trying to run down “Kanya Mia Chrisco Godde”. She references Keita a lot. What is her politics? 4Ws. Just curious but I came up empty. I know she is a professor at La Verne Ca
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Are they saying here that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians?

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If they said that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians it must be a lie because we know Europeans lie

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Between 5,000 and 3,000 B.C., humans across Africa were migrating to the Nile’s lush banks as the Earth warmed and equatorial jungles transformed into the deserts they are today. “You cannot go 50 kilometers along the Nile River Valley without finding an important site because humans spent thousands of years here in the same place, from prehistoric to modern times,” Vincent Francigny, the director of the French Archeological Unit, tells me in his office in Sudan’s capital, Khartoum. Nearby his office, the White Nile from Uganda and the Blue Nile from Ethiopia unite into one river that flows through Nubia, enters Egypt and exits into the Mediterranean Sea.

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Roughly around 2,000 B.C., archaeologists find the first traces of the Nubian kingdom called Kush.

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Egyptians conquered parts of the Kushite Kingdom for a few hundred years, and around 1,000 B.C., Egyptians appear to have died, left, or mixed thoroughly with the local population. At 800 B.C., Kushite kings, also known as the black pharaohs, took over Egypt for a century — two cobras decorating the pharaohs’ crowns signify the unification of kingdoms. And somewhere around 300 A.D., the Kushite empire began to fade away.

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Reisner died at Giza in Harvard Camp in 1942. In his final years, despite near total blindness, he continued working, dictating manuscripts to a secretary. By the end of his career, he had explored arguably the most famous archaeological site in the world (the Giza Pyramids), discovered thousands of artifacts and hundreds of artistic masterpieces, rewritten the history of Nubia and three millennia of Egypto–Nubian relations, and permanently altered the course of modern archaeology. He is buried in the American cemetery in Mari Girgis, Cairo.

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For thousands of years, many peoples have settled along the Nile River
from the Mediterranean coast to the interior of Africa. As one moves from
the north to the south, one would observe that the physical features of
these Nile dwellers change gradually. The variations are barely noticeable
from one village to the next. But, over longer distances, one can see dif-
ferences in skin color, facial features, and height and hear several different
languages. This is as true today as it was thousands of years ago.

The peoples of Nubia are an indigenous African population. They have
occupied the middle portion of the Nile Valley since at least 6000 B.C. and
likely for much longer. The Greeks and Romans called all the territory
south of Egypt by the Greek name Ethiopia, which meant "Land of the
Burnt Faces." This described its people, who had dark brown or black skin.
Even the name Sudan is an Arabic translation of the Greek name meaning
"(Land of the) Blacks." According to the latest studies, modern-day
Nubians are most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Nubians.

While both Egyptians and Nubians are indigenous African peoples, the
ancient Egyptians represented themselves in their art differently from their
southern neighbors. Egyptian artists used a red-brown paint for the skin
color of Egyptian men, yellow for Egyptian women, and a dark brown or
black for all Nubians. A painting from the tomb chamber of an Egyptian
queen, in figure 8, shows her with black skin color, indicating that she was
Nubian or of Nubian descent.

Characteristic clothing also distinguishes Nubians in Egyptian art. No-
tice, for example, the long, beaded Nubian belt in the painting of a Nubi-
an soldier on his tomb stela (gravestone) in figure 9. Nubians can also be
identified by their hairstyles. For example, figure 1 0 shows a procession of
four different races of mankind. The Nubians have short, curly hairstyles
distinctive from those of the Egyptians. Some Nubian men dyed their hair
red and adorned it with ostrich feathers. This hairstyle is depicted in the
Egyptian tomb paintings in figures 7 and 10.

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Prehistoric Nubia In early prehistoric times, nomadic cattle herders occupied most of
(6000-3100 b.c.) north Africa, including northern Nubia. In southern Nubia, a very different
and highly advanced culture developed, known today as the Khartoum
Mesolithic. Remains of this eight-thousand-year-old culture have been
found near Khartoum, the modern-day capital of the Sudan. It was closely
related to other ancient cultures spread across north and central Africa.

The Khartoum Mesolithic people subsisted primarily by hunting and
fishing. Their pottery, perhaps the oldest known in the world, is sophisti-
cated and advanced. Unlike the early civilizations of Asia and the Near
East, in Nubia the establishment of settlements and the production of pot-
tery seem to have occurred before agriculture began.

The Neolithic Period (5000-3100 B.C.) showed considerable advances
in Nubian civilization. This culture began creating human figurines, slate
palettes for grinding cosmetics, and Black-topped red pottery.

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Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt
Paleolithic Burials

The oldest known skeleton in Ancient Egypt was discovered in a burial site referred to as Taramsa 1, close to the Temple of Hathor at Dendera. The body of an "anatomically modern" child was found which was dated to around 55,000 years ago (Pleistocene Age). The body was seated, with its legs bend to the left, leaning backwards in an east-west orientation. The head was looking up to the east, the left arm resting on the pelvis and the right arm behind the back. Although numerous blades, shards and flakes were also found in the grave, they are not thought to be burial gifts.

Nazlet Khater (an Upper Palaeolithic site near Tahata in Upper Egypt) is the site of the oldest known underground mine in Ancient Egypt. Close to the mine archaeologists discovered two graves tentatively dated to 30,000 – 35,000 BC. One grave was in a very poor state, but in the other the body was clearly placed on its back, knees bent, head tilted to face the west. The left arm rested on the pelvis, the right stretched along the body. A bifacially shaped axe had been carefully placed at the bottom of the grave close to the head.

Qadan burials dating to between 14,000 and 12,000 (late Paleolithic) have been excavated at Gebel Sahaba (near Wadi Halfa in Lower Nubia). Bodies, a large number of which showed signs of violence and many of whom were buried in mass graves, were semi-contracted (where the body is placed in a foetal position) on their left sides with heads facing east. They were interred in pits covered with large sandstone slabs. Near contemporary burials at Wadi Tuskka (north of Abu Simbel) were marked by the placement of cattle skulls.

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In the process of reconstructing the evolution of these societies, a great contribution has been provided by another important group of sites located just north of the Sudanese-Egyptian border, in the Western Desert of Egypt, 100 km west of the II Cataract: the areas of Nabta playa and Kiseiba, thoroughly investigated by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition starting in the 1980s (Wendorf et al. 1980, 1984; Wendorf and Associates 2001). During the Early-Middle Holocene, these areas gravitated toward the Khartoum Variant cultural sphere (Gatto 2002, 2006; Usai 2004, 2005, 2008a), and they more or less correspond to the northernmost zone of the spread of the pottery-bearing hunter-gatherer-fishers of the Nile valley. Beyond this border a different situation has been described (Vermeersch 1978; Vermeersch et al. 2015).

Currently, the beginning of the Mesolithic can be pushed back to ~9000 BC (Honegger 2012, 2013), and these oldest phases have been recognized at Nabta/Kiseiba and Kerma areas. Meanwhile, the oldest phase recorded in central Sudan, at Al Khiday, dates to about ~7000 BC. Along the Nile stretch separating these two regions, sites where similar ancient dates have been recorded are located at the Nile-Atbara confluence (Haaland and Magi 1995) and north of Khartoum, at Sarourab (Khabir 1987). Unfortunately, these ancient dates are not associated with discrete archaeological deposits or contexts (Salvatori 2012; Usai 2014).

The sites of the Kerma area, Al Khiday and Nabta/Kiseiba, bear strong similarities in settlement structure and organization. Moreover, and more relevant, the establishment of a village with organized internal spaces coincides chronologically to roughly 7000 BC. At Nabta Playa and Al Khiday the village shows a similar plan with semisubterranean huts and pits. At Al Khiday, however, the functional areas with pits seem more complex, and pits with different fills corresponding to different functions are located in separate zones. At Al Khiday 2 most pits were filled with ash or mixed ash-sand deposits with burned stones and relevant amount of archaeological material; more rarely these pits have darker sandy-clay deposits and are rich in articulated faunal remains. Conversely, the last pit typology is very common at Al Khiday 2B, where the fill becomes more clayish and faunal remains in anatomical connections are the most common find. These numerous features, presently under analytical study for chemical, mineral, and microbotanical content tracing, suggest that the group occupied the area almost continuously. Some break in this continuity may have caused the physical and mnemonic destruction of spatial organization, and this may have caused the observed stratigraphic situation, with pits cutting each other. A small chronological difference could be established by pottery analysis, a difference that, unfortunately, cannot as easily be established with a wide series of radiocarbon dates based on terrestrial shells, mainly of the Pila species.

This evidence seems to indicate a more sedentary lifestyle in comparison with the earliest occupation phase. The more ancient levels recorded at Al Khiday are characterized by more ephemeral living structures, with post-holes and fireplaces in low depressions. A similar situation is recorded at Nabta/Kiseiba, while for the Kerma region it is not yet possible to measure any such change.

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Now British Museum scientists are planning to learn more about the victims themselves – everything from gender to disease and from diet to age at death. The discovery of dozens of previously undetected arrow impact marks and flint arrow fragments suggests that the majority of the individuals – men, women and children – in the Jebel Sahaba cemetery were killed by enemy archers, and then buried by their own people. What’s more, the new research demonstrates that the attacks – in effect a prolonged low-level war – took place over many months or years.

Parallel research over recent years has also been shedding new light as to who, in ethnic and racial terms, these victims were.

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Work carried out at Liverpool John Moores University, the University of Alaska and New Orleans’ Tulane University indicates that they were part of the general sub-Saharan originating population – the ancestors of modern Black Africans.

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The identity of their killers is however less easy to determine. But it is conceivable that they were people from a totally different racial and ethnic group – part of a North African/ Levantine/European people who lived around much of the Mediterranean Basin.

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The two groups – although both part of our species, Homo sapiens – would have looked quite different from each other and were also almost certainly different culturally and linguistically. The sub-Saharan originating group had long limbs, relatively short torsos and projecting upper and lower jaws along with rounded foreheads and broad noses, while the North African/Levantine/European originating group had shorter limbs, longer torsos and flatter faces. Both groups were very muscular and strongly built.

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Certainly the northern Sudan area was a major ethnic interface between these two different groups at around this period. Indeed the remains of the North African/Levantine/European originating population group has even been found 200 miles south of Jebel Sahaba, thus suggesting that the arrow victims were slaughtered in an area where both populations operated.

What’s more, the period in which they perished so violently was one of huge competition for resources – for they appear to have been killed during a severe climatic downturn in which many water sources dried up, especially in summer time.

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Again, where is the evidence of these other "European" populations? No evidence for it, yet they go on and on making up racial distinctions where there is no evidence for any.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

So nothing really has changed since the time of George Reisner.

There has never been a "racial" difference between populations in Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan. This is all made up bull sh*t promoted by archaeologists.
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
Missing the mic drop gif Doug

 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
Doug M. : "And this is why they created "ancient Nubia" "

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Maybe you are correct, I don't know.

I do have a serious enquiry:

Between Nubia and Libya lies Egypt.

I don't know if Egypt was ever called

Jyu.bia or Jyu.mbdia or Llu.bdia

aE.gyp(t)ia (Hellene Greek)

Judea Ha-Yudia -> Yahudi ? (in Hebrew)

KMT (in Anc. Egyptian per Egyptologists))

"(ae)jyumbdia" is how I think it was spoken, with dialect variances eg. jubia/llubya/Ljublya {compare to Ljubljana, Slovenia).

Does anyone know if that fits any known reference to 'Egypt'?

It would IMO match Gebt, Aegiptos, KeMeT but not Mizraim.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
Doug M. : "And this is why they created "ancient Nubia" "

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Maybe you are correct, I don't know.

I do have a serious enquiry:

Between Nubia and Libya lies Egypt.

I don't know if Egypt was ever called

Jyu.bia or Jyu.mbdia or Llu.bdia

aE.gyp(t)ia (Hellene Greek)

Judea Ha-Yudia -> Yahudi ? (in Hebrew)

KMT (in Anc. Egyptian per Egyptologists))

"(ae)jyumbdia" is how I think it was spoken, with dialect variances eg. jubia/llubya/Ljublya {compare to Ljubljana, Slovenia).

Does anyone know if that fits any known reference to 'Egypt'?

It would IMO match Gebt, Aegiptos, KeMeT but not Mizraim.

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Today, ‘Nubia’ is generally used to refer to the area (both in the past and present) in Northeast Africa where Nubian languages are currently spoken (Shinnie 1996), the region from just north of the 1 st Cataract of the Nile in Egypt to south of the 3 rd Cataract in Sudan. However, recent archaeological research has located Nubian sites associated with the Kerma culture in the 4 th and 5 th Cataract areas as well (Smith & Herbst 2008; Welsby 2007). Some researchers use ‘Nubia’ simply as a geographic name, rather than as an indication of ethnicity or language (Bianchi 2004; Edwards 2004; O’Connor 1993). Although people have lived in this region as far back as 13,000 BC, the word ‘Nubian’ in reference to an area’s name does not appear until the 3 rd century BC (O’Connor 1993 citing Wenig 1980). In Christian times (AD 540-1500), inhabitants of the region spoke Nubian languages, though it is thought that the language can be traced back as far as the Egyptian Middle Kingdom (2050-1650 BC; Behrens 1981; O’Connor 1993; Rilly 2007).

The etymology of the word ‘Nubia’ is disputed (O’Connor 1993). Popular opinion links it to the ancient Egyptian noun, ‘ nebu ’, meaning gold (Bianchi 2004), given that Nubia was the source for gold in ancient Egypt (Adams 1977). Bronze Age Egyptians called Nubians, Nehasyu, referring to the nomads of the region, riverine peoples, and those living by the Red Sea Coast (O’Connor 1993). It is also proposed that the term derives from a Nuba Hills word for slave (Th ewall & Schadeberg 1983). Although it was originally suggested that the place, Yam, in Egyptian texts referred to Nubia, archaeologists have recently discovered an inscrip- tion that locates it further west (Clayton et al. 2008). Beginning in the Middle Kingdom, Egyptian texts call this area Kush, although the term was originally applied to Upper Nubia only. By the 1 st millennium BC, Kush was the preferred name for all of Nubia in Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, and Hebrew languages (O’Connor 1993).

Biased perspectives on Nile Valley populations

Scholars traditionally viewed Nubia from an Egyptian viewpoint wherein Nubia is eclipsed by the well-known history of Egypt and is seen as marginal and controlled by Egypt, a perspec-tive that underestimates Nubia as an active player in regional politics (Adams 1977; Hafsaas- Tsakos 2009; Smith 2003). The portrayal of ancient Nubians by contemporary Egyptians in texts and artistic representations supported these ideas; Nubians were often depicted as simple people living in modestly built villages (O’Connor 1993). When Nubian archaeological sites began to be excavated in the late 19 th and early 20 th centuries, many of the initial interpreta- tions were colored by racist views common during that time (Bernal 1987). Reisner (1923a) originally attributed the grand architecture and material remains uncovered at Kerma, as well as at A-Group sites, to Egyptians (Török 2009), hypothesizing that local ‘black’ culture could not have been responsible for the scale and grandeur of the habitation sites, deff ufas (large mud brick buildings) and tumulus cemeteries. He suggested that the buildings were actually Egyptian trading posts and forts, the headquarters of Egyptian governors who were buried in the cemeteries. Questioned by several researchers (e.g., Batrawi 1946; Hintze 1964; Junker 1921), the Kerman remains were eventually recognized to be entirely Nubian (except for some traded statues). However, the common view of Egyptians as the ‘civilizers’ of Nubians was also maintained in anatomical research (e.g., Smith & Derry 1910a, 1910b), which linked cultural change with the infl ux of new peoples and claimed population replacement as well as cultural decline caused by the infl uence of the ‘negroid’ element. These studies, along with many sources during this period that asserted that Egyptians were white, used primitive and highly subjective methods often relying on selective observations, and found material confi rmation of whatever historical theories they wished to believe (Adams 1977; Carlson & Van Gerven 1979; Diop 1981). Shared by nearly all early students of Nubian history, these biased ideas drastically affected Egyptological views of Nubia (Sherif 1981) and survived long after the destruction of their empirical foundation (Adams 1977).

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley – K Godde July 2018

Abstract
The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years, were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance. A principal coordinates analysis and spatial-temporal model were applied to these data. The results reveal temporal and spatial patterning consistent with documented events in Egyptian and Nubian population history. Moreover, the Mesolithic Nubian sample clustered with later Nubian and Egyptian samples, indicating that events prior to the Mesolithic were important in shaping the later genetic patterning of the Nubian population. Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos **maintained **genetic similarity among the populations.

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Old News. P.K. Manansala told us all this years ago! LOL
 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
Thanks Doug M, I didn't know that.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Thanks for the Kudos. When I was younger many of the writings from the 60s and 70s and on back were still verging on old racist models. It is hard for me to forget that. Younger folks may not have this frame of reference.

Heck, I remember cartoons and TV shows with blatant racist stereotypes were still being shown (3 Stooges, The Little Rascals, Tarzan etc)....
 

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Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
In my mind, the only true "Nubians" are the speakers of Nubian languages, such as the Nobatae, Makurians, or modern Nubians. And these would have become more prominent in the Middle Nile region after the collapse of Kush in the 4th century AD:

Nubian language family

It's possible that the Kushite language shared a common Nilo-Saharan linguistic heritage with the Nubian family, but otherwise I believe the people of Kush were a separate ethnic group from the ancestors of modern Nubians. The people of Wawat (aka the C-Group), Medjay, Yam, and maybe Ta-Seti (aka the A-Group) likewise were their own nationalities. And yet they all get lumped into the "Nubian" identity simply because they inhabited the Middle Nile Valley.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Are some Nehesi Medjay?
Are the Medjay Bedja?
Are Bedja Afar?

And what about those Mentiu (and Intiu)?

Nehhesu weren't monolithic.
Red Sea peoples were counted Nehesi.
Those were in constant contact with Sinai and environs peoples.

One type of Nubian.
Considering the modern ethno-geographic terminology Nubia (link)
Very southern Egypt (Gebel el Silsila),
Lower Nubia,
Upper Nubia,
Southern Nubia (Butana).

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
[QB] In my mind, the only true "Nubians" are the speakers of Nubian languages

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Originally posted by Doug M:
George Reisner made up the concept of the ancient "Nubians" and was openly and blatantly racist about distinguishing them from Egyptians. His whole model for "Nubia" was based on "race" and distinguishing "Savage negroes" from "civilized Egyptians". The problem was that there was no monolithic entity in the ancient Nile Valley called "Nubia".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Question? Recent DNA studies point to Kerma Culture and C group both being North African/Libyan/Egyptian or clustering with Egyptian/NA/Libyan. How does that contradict Reisner? Or does it confirm Reisner's assumption of a small Dynastic race ruling over a large South Sudanese/ "negro" /Sub Saharan population that would later develop into Kush?

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What new aDNA research are you referring to?
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
@ Doug

If you mean me I was talking Nubia as a regional geography not race anthropology.
That's why I mentioned the Red Sea populations who represent one general type of Nubian usually overlooked (except for that wooden scale model archer regiment).

African diversity, not race, not only differentiates Nubians from Egyptians but various Nubians from each other.

Ta Wy was its own state.
It incorporated elSilsila to 1st cataract folk and delta peoples.
Ta Seti lost land to Ta Shemau.
By Old Kingdom times Irtjet Sethu and Wawat were incorporated into one state of its own.
See http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/539/nehesi-primary-old-kingdom-docs

Places like Gebel Ramlah and Nabta Playa are indeed within modern Egypt's borders.
Make no mistake, in prehistory terms, they are in Lower Nubia.


To learn Nubia out of Egypt's shadow
Edwards 2004 The Nubian Past
Eide 1994 Fontes Historiae Nubiorum
Hochfield 1978 Africa in Antiquity v1
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Nubia is a name that came into use in the Roman period

The name Nubian appears in a variety of forms in ancient and mediaeval texts; Nubae, Nobades, Nobates, Annoubades,. Noba, Nouba and so on
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
This finding is consistent with the Coptic ancestral component that Dobon et al. (2015) observed to be the defining element among Egyptian Copts and other Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Nile Valley and Ethiopia, as well as among many present-day Nubians. Hodgson et al. (2014) found an analogous West Eurasian ancestral component among Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Horn region, with a frequency peak among ethnic Somalis. Since it is unlikely that there was a population replacement among Nubians in the intervening centuries after the medieval Christian period, we can safely assume that the Coptic/Ethio-Somali ancestral component that defines modern Nubians is the same West Eurasian-affiliated ancestral component that defines the KulR17 specimen from Kulubnarti.

https://landofpunt.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/ancient-dna-from-sudan/
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Egypt is a name invented by the French.
It entered English in the 16th century.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Yatunde Lisa is trying to re-establish "Nubia" as a valid term
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yatunde Lisa is trying to re-establish "Nubia" as a valid term

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yatunde Lisa is trying to re-establish "Nubia" as a valid term

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No I am not. What I am asking is what "ethnicity" and or DNA profile or DNA clustering would A group & C group fall into?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?

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No


 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
So now there is no difference between Egyptians and Nubians? Ancient OR Modern?

To the people arguing this....what are y'all smoking?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Ancient OR Modern?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Ancient OR Modern?

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you threw in modern to flip the script

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Are some Nehesi Medjay?
Are the Medjay Bedja?
Are Bedja Afar?

And what about those Mentiu (and Intiu)?

Nehhesu weren't monolithic.
Red Sea peoples were counted Nehesi.
Those were in constant contact with Sinai and environs peoples.

One type of Nubian.
Considering the modern ethno-geographic terminology Nubia (link)
Very southern Egypt (Gebel el Silsila),
Lower Nubia,
Upper Nubia,
Southern Nubia (Butana).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Doug will school you shortly, I've got to go out and grab something to eat
"Ancient Nubians" and "Modern Nubians" , both European constructs,

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
So now there is no difference between Egyptians and Nubians? Ancient OR Modern?

To the people arguing this....what are y'all smoking?

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The word "Egypt" was not used by African populations in the Nile Valley in 5,000 B.C. It was not a population identifier, cultural identifier, geographic identifier or national boundary. This is something made up by Greeks. Yes there were cultures and populations in this area but they were not called "Egyptian". Just like there were no "French" in the region known as France in 5,000 BC either. Everybody understands that but then acts confused when applied to "Egypt". If there was no "Egypt" or "France" in 5,000 B.C., then there couldn't be any "Egyptian" or "French" DNA then either.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Revert to Ta Nehesu instead of Nubia

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:


Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think doug means to say we shouldn't use the term Nubia at all because Nubian is a made up term and all Nubians and Egyptians are the same. Rather his proposal is that we stop using Nubia to pigeonhole known BLACK Africans who are of the Nile valley region.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
To those who can read the ancient Egyptian text… Was there A DIFFERENCE and ADVERSARIAL EVENTS between Nubians and Egyptians? Some of the old guards on here like Sage?

And Wally etc mentioned that there was no difference between Nubians and Egyptians

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quote:

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KING SNEFRU
Year x+2
Hacking up TaNehesu.
Bringing of 7,000 living prisoners, and 200,000 large and small cattle.

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Originally posted by beyoku:
[QB] @Dougm @Lioness

I dont care how white people use the word.
This is how BEYOKU uses the word.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Again, the point of my quote was to "quote" a DNA studie done on Kerma culture not to reinstate Nubia as a legitimate term or designation. Reading this thread, historical references, documents and DNA studies has lead to some confusion for me and I was looking for clarification on A group Kerma culture and C group. That is all. Now as I read more I see that the long history of NE Africa and the diverse groups that are in the region can lead general confusion.

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Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?

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quote:

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Question 2. What is the difference if any genetically and culturally between, Afro Asiatic, Kushitic, Nubian, South Sudandic and Egyptian cultures?

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

So now there is no difference between Egyptians and Nubians? Ancient OR Modern?

To the people arguing this....what are y'all smoking?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Again, the point of my quote was to "quote" a DNA studie done on Kerma culture not to reinstate Nubia as a legitimate term or designation. Reading this thread, historical references, documents and DNA studies has lead to some confusion for me and I was looking for clarification on A group Kerma culture and C group. That is all. Now as I read more I see that the long history of NE Africa and the diverse groups that are in the region can lead general confusion.

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A Group, C Group, and Kerma are all different cultures based on material remains. How biologically different the people of the cultures were is a different issue.

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Question 1. Was Reisner despite his apparent racism correct. Was Kerma culture was part of a military outpost sent out my the northern Egyptians to dominate Northern Sudan?

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No. Reisner was wrong as Lioness has shown in her post. Lioness is like a broken clock.

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Question 2. What is the difference if any genetically and culturally between, Afro Asiatic, Kushitic, Nubian, South Sudandic and Egyptian cultures?

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Afro-Asiatic is a LANGUAGE phylum. Cushitic is a sub-family or branch of Afro-asiatic. Nubian describes peoples of the region of Nubia but is also a linguistic term for a branch of the Nilo-Saharan language phylum just like Sudanic. I suggest you do some independent research on your own and read up on these things.

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Originally posted by beyoku:
^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.

The differences among themselves are what we today would recognize as different Ethnicities of the same race of people

Yoruba and Igbo are damn near identical in genomic research...they inhabit the same country, they are not the same thing.

Oromo and Somali are damn near identical, Oromo just have more variability. Much of their ancestry comes from the same admixture event. Somali are not "Ethiopian" even though some Somali live IN modern Ethiopia. Insert Amhara, all 3 groups are Horn Africans. All 3 have a Omotic genetic substratum....maximized in Oromo, minimized in Somali. All 3 have Levantine ancestry, maximized in Amhara, minimized in Somali. The same type of ancestry cline is going to be similar among Egypt and Nubians.....Egyptians are going to have Ancestry that is absent or minimized in Nubians and Nubians are going to have ancestry that is minimized or Absent Egyptians.

The fact that Euroclowns have played race games does not make these populations "the same". Saying they are "the same" dumbs things way down to a simpleton level and ES is years past that....or is it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
look, either the Old Kingdom Egyptians were Nubian or they weren't

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Who said Nehesi was a nation? YOU said it was a reference to all Africans to the South of Egypt. I don't agree with that usage. So really it is on YOU to show how that is how it was used.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.

The differences among themselves are what we today would recognize as different Ethnicities of the same race of people.

Yoruba and Igbo are damn near identical in genomic research...they inhabit the same country, they are not the same thing.

Oromo and Somali are damn near identical, Oromo just have more variability. Much of their ancestry comes from the same admixture event. Somali are not "Ethiopian" even though some Somali live IN modern Ethiopia. Insert Amhara, all 3 groups are Horn Africans. All 3 have a Omotic genetic substratum....maximized in Oromo, minimized in Somali. All 3 have Levantine ancestry, maximized in Amhara, minimized in Somali. The same type of ancestry cline is going to be similar among Egypt and Nubians.....Egyptians are going to have Ancestry that is absent or minimized in Nubians and Nubians are going to have ancestry that is minimized or Absent Egyptians.

The fact that Euroclowns have played race games does not make these populations "the same". Saying they are "the same" dumbs things way down to a simpleton level and ES is years past that....or is it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

look, either the Old Kingdom Egyptians were Nubian or they weren't

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That depends on which Egyptians. Before the first dynasty Kmt (Egypt) was divided into two countries--Ta Mehu (Lower Egypt) and Ta Shemau (Upper Egypt). Each country was further divided into sepati or provinces which likely derived from tribal territories.


Archaeology shows the southernmost sepat of Upper Egypt to be part of A-Group/Qustul Culture.



Traditionally, the view was that these Nubians of the 1st Sepat were assimilated into Naqada Egyptian culture.

Interestingly, the name of the 1st Sepat is Ta Khentet meaning 'Land of Before' or 'Land of Prior'. The 1st sepat was also called Ta Seti meaning 'Land of the Bow' which happened to be the same exact name as the Qustul Kingdom of Lower Nubia.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

Were there any "Cushitic" tribes (like the ancestors of the Beja) in Lower "Nubia" in the Dynastic period? I ask because the Lower "Nubians" (and Puntites) looked indistinguishable from the ancient Egyptians.

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The Cushitic language group has largely been confined to the Horn of Africa. The Beja language, To-Bedawi, was originally classified as 'North Cushitic' but recently linguists are now considering it as part of its own distinct branch that's intermediate between Cushitic and Egyptic. Historians have typically identified the Blemmyes of the Roman to Medieval periods to be the direct ancestors of the Beja. Though the Blemmyes are said to be part of migrations from the west of the Nile. There are claims that the Medjay of dynastic times were also ancestral in that they were eventually absorbed by the Blemmyes.

Ancient Nubian Cultures: 2400–1550 BC

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As for the Berbers that were apparently part of ancient Egypt's "multi-ethnic" mix ... which ones are we referring to? Is it the Siwa or the Coastal Berbers?

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From about -7000, and above all during the humid periods towards the end of Neolithic times, there seems to have been a common material culture throughout Nubia, from the edge of the Ethiopian Highlands to the Al-Kab region and even as far north as Middle Egypt. It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. Until this time very similar, if not identical funeral customs, pottery, stone and, later, metal instruments are found from Khartoum in the south to Matuar, near Asyut, in the north. They show how similar the various regions were as regards social organization, religious beliefs and funeral rites, as well as the general way of life, in which hunting, fishing and animal husbandry were associated with an as yet crude form of agriculture.

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The Nubian cultures of this period, which are found as far south as Khartoum, are not sharply distinct from those of Egypt. There was probably exchange over the whole area, and no central political authority. The cultural demarcation with the Nubian A group, which becomes noticeable south of Gebel el Silsila in Naqada II, probably accompanies the beginnings of state organization in Egypt and the definition of a political frontier. This process leads into the early dynastic period, in which Egypt is united, within boundaries comparable to those of later periods, under a single ruler.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The Berber languages are actually too young to have existed that far back in dynastic times.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Also lets not get it twisted, the Egyptians were a mix of various different tribes as well. An Egyptian from Aswan probably spent his life never meeting an Egyptian from Pi-Ramses or Naukratis or some other Delta Coastal town and if they did they'd have trouble understanding each other despite their cultural and linguistic similarities.

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Also lets not get it twisted, the Egyptians were a mix of various different tribes as well. An Egyptian from Aswan probably spent his life never meeting an Egyptian from Pi-Ramses or Naukratis or some other Delta Coastal town and if they did they'd have trouble understanding each other despite their cultural and linguistic similarities.

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I'm not sure about that. Upper to Lower Egypt was relatively quick trip on the Nile. We typically define cultural differences in Africa with gods. Egypt had different gods everywhere you go. In that sense, Ancient Egypt was as different from it'self as it was Libya or the Congo. The linguistic differences were probably more pronounced because they were separate nations for so long.

I surmised that Upper and Lower Egyptians saw the other as people they encounter frequently at cities along the Nile(most people didn't live in large cities but they probably visited them), people with a different language but one they may have learned to help unify the nation, people who were culturally different yet they understood and were probably entertained by the differences.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Actually there was no pre-dynastic country Lower Egypt.
Upper Egypt conquered the un-united delta peoples and created Lower Egypt.


Pastoralism is just an economy.
Nothing stops any of hunting, fishing, and dirt farming being practiced alongside herding.

Not that I'm their fan but I began with Smith and Vercoutter back in 1981.

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From about -7000, and above all during the humid periods towards the end of Neolithic times, there seems to have been a common material culture throughout Nubia, from the edge of the Ethiopian Highlands to the Al-Kab region and even as far north as Middle Egypt. It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. Until this time very similar, if not identical funeral customs, pottery, stone and, later, metal instruments are found from Khartoum in the south to Matuar, near Asyut, in the north. They show how similar the various regions were as regards social organization, religious beliefs and funeral rites, as well as the general way of life, in which hunting, fishing and animal husbandry were associated with an as yet crude form of agriculture.

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This must've been floating in my head all these years I've boosted Pharaonic Egypt as a Sudanese product.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Actually there was no pre-dynastic country Lower Egypt.
Upper Egypt conquered the un-united delta peoples and created Lower Egypt.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

What about the C group?

According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the C-Group peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Berber branch.The Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of Berber origin, including the terms for sheep and water (e.g., Nile). This in turn suggests that the C-Group population — which, along with the Kerma Culture, inhabited the Nile Valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers — spoke Afro-Asiatic languages.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oshun:

"It was only towards -3000 that there is a distinct difference between the civilization of the lower Egyptian part of the Nile Valley and that of the upper, Nubian, part. "


I wonder what he means by Lower Egypt becoming distinct? Possibly migrants? Because Lower Egypt wasn't as developed and culturally began to change to be more like Upper Egypt. Why if they had all the advancements of the same culture already?

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In the quote those co-authors mean
the limestoned region (esSilsila to delta) as Lower Valley or Egyptian and
the sandstoned region (Silsila and south) as Upper Valley or Nubian.
The -3000 distinction is in-situ cultural (eg language writing etc).
It's not demic migrational (eg some transplanted dynastic race), afaicmo.


That quote's in the 2nd UNESCO volume available online from the South Africans.

They weren't meaning Lower Egypt specifically but don't play Delta Fayoum Middleegypt cheap, so to speak.
Though not into big government those inhabitants had well developed cultures in the predynastic.
Though of course the conquerors displaced much of it.

Please share more of your insights.


Meanwhile I'll use this post for a little on non-Valley Fayoum type culture and contribution.
Try to read past the inexcusable racialisms



If this is down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed.
For contrast see 2 posts below.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
When I said country, I didn't necessarily mean a united nation or polity but rather a region.

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Gotcha loud and clear.
I should a asked for clarity on your use of country, sorry.
Remember that old Yam an Extensive Kingdom thread? Link
I can't find anything in English on Tamazight origins.
I'm stuck with Behren's Jebel Marra / El Fasher circle of origin which is south of Gilf Kebir or nearby Ta Temeh.
The former is outside the old Capsian range and the latter within it and so maybe a better candidate.


Whatever each spoke, the people of Temeh and Yam interacted.
I wouldn't doubt each learning something from the other.


The spread of language may be 'marked' by the east to west return migration of
one of the U6a(?) subclades
and a young E-M81 (or whatever they call it nowadays) related clade.


If I'm down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed.

Personally I think Tamazight is much older than 2000 years ago.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Neolithic Period to Egypt's Dynasty 1
by Bruce B. Williams, Research Associate
Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago

Cultures of Northern Egypt

From the western delta to south of the Fayum, the cultures of northern Egypt occur largely in single sites or restricted areas, rather than extensive horizons. The emergence of distinct cultural traditions in northern Egypt has often been connected to the later canonical division between Upper and Lower Egypt, although these early cultures were actually located in large part south of the Delta in areas assigned to Upper Egypt. In order of appearance, the site phases are Merimda (early and main) at the western edge of the delta; Fayum A; sites near the northern shore of Lake Oarun el-Omani and Maadi just south of modern Cairo; and possibly Buto, in the northwest delta.

1. Domestic Economies. The domestic economies of northern Egypt were substantially supported by agriculture which concentrated on the cultivation of cereals. Animals such as sheep, goats, cattle, and dogs were kept; fish and a wide range of animals were taken. Even hippopotamus bones occur in the settlements (Hayes 1965: 93, 112). Hunting this dangerous animal requires the coordinated tactics of bands or crews (but see Eiwanger 1988; 44).

2. Structures and Settlements. Like earlier playa settlements, most habitations were light, irregular or oval structures made of posts and reeds, sometimes plastered with mud. Many had hearths and circular storage pits nearby, some of which were lined with baskets or mud. At Maadi, some light structures were rectangular. The settlements had no regular plan, but part of a ditch and palisade were found at Maadi, in addition to large communal storage areas. Merimda contained a number of oval structures about two meters long, built of mud or mud slabs with floors below ground level. Sometimes a small jar would be imbedded in the floor near one end of the oval, and a stick or hippopotamus tibia would be plastered against the wall near the opposite end (Hayes 1965: 105). The buildings, some arranged as though on a lane (Hayes 1965: 105), were built only in restricted areas, probably for a special purpose (Eiwanger 1982: 68). They may be related to structures at Maadi that were sunk into the ground over two meters and approached by steps. One very large (10 x 6 x 2 m) and elaborate brick-lined sunken structure had a special entry and a niche. It was found with a cemetery and large deposits of fish and pottery vessels, many containing grain. These structures at Merimda and Maadi, especially the large building, may represent a tradition of religious architecture (Anonymous 1986).

3. Religious Practice. Other evidence of religious practice includes burials, deposits, and possibly structural features. Early Merimda contained a small cemetery of contracted burials, mostly placed with the heads south, on the right side. Later, burials in the Merimda levels were oriented irregularly (Eiwanger 1982; Hayes 1965: 112-13). In the el-Omari and Maadi phases, burials were made in cemeteries, some of them very large. Grave goods were deposited with later burials, and some later graves have simple dolmen-like superstructures. Even some goats were buried at Heliopolis with grave goods (Debono and Mortenson 1988: 39, 46-48). Female figurines and an eggshaped terra-cotta head from Merimda are not readily connected to known traditions, but a deposit with axes and a hippopotamus figurine (Eiwanger 1982: 76-80; 1988; 46) and the hippopotamus tibia used as steps may be forerunners of Egyptian magical practices.

4. Manufactured Goods. The handmade pottery of earliest Merimda was relatively fine, but apart from some stands, the mostly ovoid shapes were simpler than later pottery. Many vessels were pattern burnished with a pebble. Some vessels have a band of incised herringbone decoration, a feature that occurs both in Palestine and elsewhere in northern Africa (Eiwanger 1984: 61). The pottery of later Merimda was coarser, with vegetable temper. Shapes remained simple, but knobs and lugs were sometimes applied (Hayes 1965: 106-107; Eiwanger 1979: 28-38, 56; 1988: 15-33, pls, 1-32). Most vessels were burnished, with a dark surface color. This simple pottery continued at Maadi. Only a few pieces were decorated in red paint on a light ground, and the finer red and black burnished vessels were accompanied by much coarse dark pottery, and some very large storage jars (Ibrahim and Seeher 1987: pls. 2,2 and 28,2). In other industries, the stone vessels of Maadi were more elaborate than those found at Merinda (Hayes 1965:126). Copper was also worked at Maadi from imported ores.

5. Trade. Trade and contacts expanded greatly between the time of Merimda and Maadi, but imports from the East primarily consisted of raw materials such as copper ore and asphalt, or oils; most objects were made locally or regionally, although wavy-handled jars were imported from southwest Asia and some vessels and other objects were imported or imitated from Upper Egypt (Kaiser 1985: 70; Ibrahim and Seeher 1984; vorr der Way 1987; 242-247, 256-257).

6. End of Northern Egypt. Maadi ended early in the second phase (II) of Upper Egypt's Naqada culture; Kaiser 1985: fig.10). The settlement seems to have been finally destroyed by fire (Hayes 1965: 123). Maadi was the last of Lower Egypt's cultures in the area, although Buto in the Delta where a settlement with a cemetery has recently been found may continue (von der Way 1986; 1987: 242-247, including Naqada II pottery; Kaiser 1985: fig.10).

7. Summary. In northern Egypt, a large number of small, shifting villages probably sustained a few more permanent large settlements (Eiwanger 1987: fig.9). Consolidated in the area of Helwan and Maadi, these centers transcended the shifting earlier habitations without eliminating cultural variations (Kaiser 1985: 67), a contrast with the more uniform Naqada culture of Upper Egypt.


[...]

Most importantly, the earliest known permanent settlements in Lower Egypt were made in the southwest with the first one being in the Fayum!


[...]


(For more on Egyptian sepati look here)

The 1st sepat of Lower Egypt, Mennefer (Memphis) was the Egyptian capital first established by Narmer after his alleged conquest of the Delta, yet the predynastic culture of that sepat as well as the last two sepati of Upper Egypt (the 21st and 22nd) all show strong cultural connections to the neolithic Fayum A culture which in turn descends from the Sahara.

[...]

"..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945

... archaeologist Barbara Barich in her work Archaeology and Environment in the Libyan Sahara commented on similarities between Capsian culture farther west in Libya and the neolithic cultures of Egyptian oases like the Fayum such as oval shaped reed huts, the hearths and storage pits, and even the bodies interred in the homes. Fekri Hassan cites other material evidence like ground axes, tabular flint tools, lens-shaped bifacial arrowheads, concave-based arrowheads, ostrich shells, amazonite beads, and bone points.

For more info on the archaeology you can read The Archaeology of the Faiyum and Western Delta.


[...]

Greek legends say that Libya was once ruled by Amazons the most prominent of which was a queen named Myrina. The name may be a Greek corruption of the name Merinit (Merineith) which was a popular name in Lower Egypt and was in fact the name of the Delta princess who became Narmer's queen after his conquest of the Delta.

[...]

... in the Tale of Sinuhe, Sinuhe himself who is a Delta man says when he traveled to Upper Egypt he thought he was in an entirely different country since the customs and looks of the people were different and he could barely understand their speech! Perhaps 'barely' is the key word here. That the Delta and Valley folk spoke dialects of the same language is the likely guess many Egyptologists make.

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Djehuti

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I had no idea that the C group spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't think it's too pressumptious of me to think that there were multiple Afro-Asiatic "Nubian" tribes in Lower and Upper "Nubia" in the early Dynastic era.

I'm skeptical of the prospect that genetic tests will ever be carried out on Southern Egyptians from the early era - for obvious reasons. There won't be anything even remotely approaching the Abusir sample.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
As a mentioned earlier, if you understand the word "nubian" as essentially being an ancient derivation for the word "gold" you would understand why "nubian" is not a term that would ever have been used in AE. Gold was sacred to the AE and they did not use it for anyone they considered "non sacred". So beyond the simple rejection of "racism" in Egyptology there is a deeper cultural gap and misunderstanding promoted by this word.

Ancient Egypt became powerful partly because of the gold. Where did most of the gold come from in Ancient Egypt? Between Aswan and Lower Sudan. ANd who do you think were the first people to excavate and trade this gold? You got it, the same people they call "nubians" today. Most of the gold mines from ancient times are to the East and South of Aswan:


https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-22508-6_7

Full PDF here.
http://www.utdallas.edu/~rjstern/egypt/PDFs/CE%20Desert/KlemmAU.JAES01.pdf

So just like all the other elements of Ancient culture in KMT, mining and gold came also from the so-called "Nubian" areas of Egypt. These populations would have grown in wealth and prestige from the use of gold and it is probable this is what caused the conflicts and the rise of the earliest dynasties.

The predynastic culture of Upper Egypt was based around towns like "Nubt" which was named for the fact it was a gold trading center, with areas further South.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

Djehuti

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I had no idea that the C group spoke an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't think it's too pressumptious of me to think that there were multiple Afro-Asiatic "Nubian" tribes in Lower and Upper "Nubia" in the early Dynastic era.

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I'm skeptical of the prospect that genetic tests will ever be carried out on Southern Egyptians from the early era - for obvious reasons. There won't be anything even remotely approaching the Abusir sample.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Gotcha loud and clear.
I should a asked for clarity on your use of country, sorry.
Remember that old Yam an Extensive Kingdom thread? Link
I can't find anything in English on Tamazight origins.
I'm stuck with Behren's Jebel Marra / El Fasher circle of origin which is south of Gilf Kebir or nearby Ta Temeh.
The former is outside the old Capsian range and the latter within it and so maybe a better candidate.



Whatever each spoke, the people of Temeh and Yam interacted.
I wouldn't doubt each learning something from the other.

The spread of language may be 'marked' by the east to west return migration of
one of the U6a(?) subclades
and a young E-M81 (or whatever they call it nowadays) related clade.


If I'm down level I appreciate anybody bringing me up to speed.

Personally I think Tamazight is much older than 2000 years ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

..first you are going to have to take some time out to differentiate the most likely aboriginal groups, and what lineages these group carried to know what is considered admixture upon what base.

This may help.















http://www.llmap.org/images/blench002/Blench002.jpg - Large Image, Note Caption.

http://www.llmap.org/maps/by-country/ken.html

IF you notice a common theme it is the presence of Nilo-Saharan people and technology mostly on the Nile and in the Sahara while Afro-asiatics are mostly associated with the Horn and Red Sea. Hypothesizing what lineages are associated with "Cushitics" please read the captoions on some of the images and try to figure out what "Cushitic" admixiture or "absorption" on by Nilo-Saharan and Bantu on the Nile or in Kenya would look like.

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=8;t=009708;#000001
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The Chronology isn't wrong, it is made up. George Reisner made up the concept of the ancient "Nubians" and was openly and blatantly racist about distinguishing them from Egyptians. His whole model for "Nubia" was based on "race" and distinguishing "Savage negroes" from "civilized Egyptians". The problem was that there was no monolithic entity in the ancient Nile Valley called "Nubia". No such geographic, ethnic, cultural and political entity existed prior to late Egyptian history (The Roman Era). That would make "Nubia" the oldest nation state on earth but no such thing existed.

Reisner used the term "A-group Nubian" to identify the populations in Upper Egypt and around Aswan based on pottery styles, not even skeletal remains. The racial characteristics were completely fabricated. However, the so-called "A-Group" were the precursors for and basis for the predynastic of AE. In Upper Egypt during the predynastic the town "Nubt" (another term for gold trading town) was one of the main centers for predynastic culture. It is now called "Naqada" based on the arabic name. "Nubt" is the closest thing to "Nubian" in ancient Egyptian language and it literally meant "golden" as an adjective. The gold trade is what made Egypt powerful and much of that gold originated in Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan, precisely in the areas of the A-Group. So the "golden culture" based on gold mining and trade in gold is the basis for the rise of the Egyptian culture and wealth and most of the gods and patterns of culture originated from there. These people know this which is why they made up "Nubia" as a way to segregate the Nile Valley into "superior" white/eurasian Egyptians and "savage negro Nubians".

And the whole idea of a timeline for ancient "Nubia" goes back to the racist George Reisner.

Modern Egyptology still upholds his racist models of "Nubia" even though they claim otherwise.

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Reisner died at Giza in Harvard Camp in 1942. In his final years, despite near total blindness, he continued working, dictating manuscripts to a secretary. By the end of his career, he had explored arguably the most famous archaeological site in the world (the Giza Pyramids), discovered thousands of artifacts and hundreds of artistic masterpieces, rewritten the history of Nubia and three millennia of Egypto–Nubian relations, and permanently altered the course of modern archaeology. He is buried in the American cemetery in Mari Girgis, Cairo.

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http://www.gizapyramids.org/static/html/reisnerbio.jsp


Here is a recent pamphlet on "Nubia" from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts:

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For thousands of years, many peoples have settled along the Nile River
from the Mediterranean coast to the interior of Africa. As one moves from
the north to the south, one would observe that the physical features of
these Nile dwellers change gradually. The variations are barely noticeable
from one village to the next. But, over longer distances, one can see dif-
ferences in skin color, facial features, and height and hear several different
languages. This is as true today as it was thousands of years ago.

The peoples of Nubia are an indigenous African population. They have
occupied the middle portion of the Nile Valley since at least 6000 B.C. and
likely for much longer. The Greeks and Romans called all the territory
south of Egypt by the Greek name Ethiopia, which meant "Land of the
Burnt Faces." This described its people, who had dark brown or black skin.
Even the name Sudan is an Arabic translation of the Greek name meaning
"(Land of the) Blacks." According to the latest studies, modern-day
Nubians are most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Nubians.

While both Egyptians and Nubians are indigenous African peoples, the
ancient Egyptians represented themselves in their art differently from their
southern neighbors. Egyptian artists used a red-brown paint for the skin
color of Egyptian men, yellow for Egyptian women, and a dark brown or
black for all Nubians. A painting from the tomb chamber of an Egyptian
queen, in figure 8, shows her with black skin color, indicating that she was
Nubian or of Nubian descent.

Characteristic clothing also distinguishes Nubians in Egyptian art. No-
tice, for example, the long, beaded Nubian belt in the painting of a Nubi-
an soldier on his tomb stela (gravestone) in figure 9. Nubians can also be
identified by their hairstyles. For example, figure 1 0 shows a procession of
four different races of mankind. The Nubians have short, curly hairstyles
distinctive from those of the Egyptians. Some Nubian men dyed their hair
red and adorned it with ostrich feathers. This hairstyle is depicted in the
Egyptian tomb paintings in figures 7 and 10.

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Then they turn around and start contradicting themselves:

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Prehistoric Nubia In early prehistoric times, nomadic cattle herders occupied most of
(6000-3100 b.c.) north Africa, including northern Nubia. In southern Nubia, a very different
and highly advanced culture developed, known today as the Khartoum
Mesolithic. Remains of this eight-thousand-year-old culture have been
found near Khartoum, the modern-day capital of the Sudan. It was closely
related to other ancient cultures spread across north and central Africa.

The Khartoum Mesolithic people subsisted primarily by hunting and
fishing. Their pottery, perhaps the oldest known in the world, is sophisti-
cated and advanced. Unlike the early civilizations of Asia and the Near
East, in Nubia the establishment of settlements and the production of pot-
tery seem to have occurred before agriculture began.

The Neolithic Period (5000-3100 B.C.) showed considerable advances
in Nubian civilization. This culture began creating human figurines, slate
palettes for grinding cosmetics, and Black-topped red pottery.

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https://archive.org/details/Nubia

They say the "Nubians" are older than "Egyptians" but somehow they don't put two and two together....

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Introduction
Although the Nubian A-Group culture has been in the last century the subject of many important studies, and it is definitely one of the best known cultures in the prehistory of northeastern Africa, an updated revision of our knowledge, to include also the last findings from regions surrounding Lower Nubia, is missing. I shall use this opportunity to present a preliminary assessment of the state of the art, mainly focused on the new information acquired recently and its significance. I had the occasion to discuss with Francis Geus about the late prehistory of Nubia many times when I was working with him in 2003 on the Sudanese Prehistoric pottery from El Multaga. He was quite skeptical on my idea on the existence of more variants of the A-Group. For him the real A-Group was that described by Nordström in the 1970’s. In a way he was right.

History of research The A-Group culture was discovered at the beginning of the Twentieth century during the first archaeological salvage campaign, undertaken in the Egyptian Nubia for the construction of the Aswan Dam. A reassessment of its definition was the consequence of another salvage campaign, this time organized, in the 1960’s and in the Sudanese Nubia, by the UNESCO for the construction of Sadd el Ali , south of Aswan.

George A. Reisner, the archaeologist who worked in the Aswan area during the 1907/1908 season, was the first who identified evidence of non-Egyptian cultures south of the First Cataract (Reisner 1910). He divided them in "groups"
labeled following the alphabetic letters: from the A-Group to the X-Group. `

This definition concerned only historic cultures while the prehistoric evidence was interpreted as Egyptian and followed the classification proposed in those years by Petrie for the Predynastic period (Petrie 1974). However, according to Reisner, there was a chronological shift between the Egyptian Predynastic and that from Nubia. As a matter of fact, at that time Egypt was seen as the nuclear area for cultural dynamics along the Nile, so the Nubian evidence had to be younger in date compared to the Egyptian one. In Reisner’s chronological se- quence the term A-Group defined the last phase of the Nubian prehistory, sup- posed to be contemporary to the end of Naqada III ( sensu Kaiser 1956; 1957) and the first two Egyptian dynasties (ca. 3100-2800 BC).

In spite of this cultural diversification, the material culture was described
by Reisner as a whole. It is only thanks to Firth, who succeeded to Reisner in
the work, and to Steindorff that the characteristic traits of the Nubian
productions were initially brought to light and classified (Firth 1912; 1915;
1927; Steindorff 1935). A great improvement on the definition and knowledge of
the A-Group was provided by the results of the UNESCO campaign in the Wadi
Halfa reach and the Second Cataract area. Particularly, the work done by the
Scandinavian Joint Expedition (Nordström 1972) and by the Oriental Institute
of Chicago (Williams 1986) were of great im- portance. In those years there
were also attempts to change Reisner’s terminology, but terms such as "Early
Nubian" and "A-Hor izon", proposed respectively by Trigger (1965) and Adams (1977), did not obtain a great success. Worth to mention is the brilliant work done by Henry S. Smith (1966) on the B-Group funerary evidence. According to him, the B-Group as a cultural entity did not exist and the graves associated to it have to be mostly dated to the Early A-Group phase instead.

Since the 1990’s the A-Group culture has been the subject of a new series of studies, mostly based on old, and generally published, materials (Smith 1991; Gatto & Tiraterra 1996; Gatto 1997a; 1997b; 1998a; 1998b; 2000; Nordström 1996; 2002; 2004; in press, forthcoming; Rampersad 1999; Takamiya 2005). However, in the last years fresh data was also added from regions surrounding Lower Nubia, mainly the Libyan Desert (Gatto 2001-2002; Lange 2003) and Upper Egypt (Gatto 2003, in press a; in press b).

Spatial distribution (fig. 1)
So far, evidence of the A-Group is mostly concentrated in the section of
the Nile Valley that goes from Kubbaniya to Melik en Nasir (AA.VV. 1967;
Bietak & Engelmayer 1963; Donner 1967-1968; Emery & Kirwan 1935; Firth 1911;
1912; 1915; 1927; Gatto in press b; Gezelius & Schönbäck n.d.; Griffith 1921;
Junker 1919; Leclant 1961; Lal 1967; Mills 1967-1968; Mills & Nordström 1966;
Nor- dström 1972; Piotrovsky 1964; 1967; Raue per. comm.; Reisner 1910;
Simpson 1961; Smith 1962; Steindorff 1935; Verwers 1961; 1962; Williams 1986;
1989). It was found on 193 sites: 87 located on the West Bank, 99 on the East
Bank and 7 on islands of the First and Second Cataracts. Of these, 126 are
graveyards and 67 are habitation sites, the latter including also few rock
shelters.

It must be pointed out that A-Group evidence was not always found in an A-Group context. I recently proved that in the First Cataract area A-Group material culture was present within Naqadian sites (Gatto & Tiraterra 1996; Gatto 1997b; 2000; 2003; in press b). The percentages of Egyptian and Nubian materials in the region differed completely and the Nubian component was always less than 20% (Gatto 2000). Following this, sites found in the area be- tween Kubbaniya and Metardul, previously associated to the A-Group, are now interpreted as part of the Naqadian settlement system

On the other hand, a long-term and stable presence of Nubian people in the
area surrounding the First Cataract and from there northward up to
Hierakonpolis and even Armant is well attested (Gatto 2003; in press a; in
press b; Midant-Reynes & Buchez 2002) and has to be taken into consid-
eration. Interesting to note, unique cultural features, unknown elsewhere, are
there recorded and may indicate the presence of a regional variant of the
Naqadian culture combining, particularly during the first half of the fourth
millennium BC, both Egyptian and Nubian traditions (Gatto 2003; in press
b).

The sites located between Kubbaniya and Metardul are 23 in total: 14 on the west bank consists on 11 cemeteries and 3 settlements; 9 cemeteries were found on the east bank; and some graves and remains within the habitation site were recorded at Elephantine island.

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Nubian cultures: A and C - Group

Several cultures are attested in Nubia in the fourth to second millennia BC. They are in general divided by their pottery styles. The A - Group is known from Lower Nubia (in the North to el-Kubaniya, north of Aswan) and in the South to the Second Cataract. The A - Group people produced pottery but seem to have had a semi-nomadic lifestyle (some agriculture, including sheep and geese). From the end phase there are some elite cemeteries known, indicating a more complex social structure than before. The pottery is often very fine ('eggshell ware') and it is handmade. Geometrical patterns incised on the surface are typical. The A - Group disappeared with the Old Kingdom (in Egypt) from Lower Nubia. The whole area seems to have largely uninhabited, though A- Group pottery at Buhen indicates continuing population on a least a small scale.

The C - Group appears in the late third millennium BC (about the time of the Sixth Dynasty in Egypt). It is found in about the same area as the A-Group from the late Third to mid-second millennium BC (about the time of the 6th to early 18th Dynasty in Egypt). There are only a few settlement sites known, showing the C - Group people lived in huts; later (in phase III), there were fortified settlements. In the Middle Kingdom Lower Nubia was occupied by the Egyptians. For the Second Intermediate Period there are many C - Group cemeteries in Egypt, indicating that Nubians lived and worked there. They seem to have been employed as soldiers.

C - Group pottery is decorated with geometrical patterns incised on the surface (click here for examples found at Buhen, and Rifeh). Other vessels are red brown in colour with a black top. The pottery is always handmade.

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The earliest pottery found at Nabta Playa dates to around 9,800 BP. During the early and middle phases pottery consisted of wide bowls decorated using the rocker-stamp technique with lines and points made by combs or cords. During the early period, decoration typically covered the entire exterior surface (with the exception of dotted wavy line pottery and stem and leaf pottery where the decoration was around the upper part of the vessel). The earliest forms of decoration are in the "Early Khartoum Style", with the characteristic "dotted wavy Line Style" appearing later. They also used ostrich eggs, most likely to store water. The small number of shards of pottery (in comparison to later periods) has led to the suggestion that pottery was not for everyday use, but instead had a symbolic and social significance. Late Neolithic pottery resembled the early forms, but with more complex decoration. However, by 4900 BC this had been replaced by burnished and smooth wares, some of which were black topped. We do not know what cause this sudden shift in style.

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An over 4,400-year-old pottery workshop has been discovered near Kom Ombo Temple in Aswan, Upper Egypt as maintenance work was being carried out to reduce the level of underground water beneath the temple.

The workshop, the oldest ancient Egyptian workshop ever discovered, dating back to the Fourth Dynasty (2,613 - 2,494 BC), was found in the area located between the Crocodile Museum and the Nile's shore.

The structure has semi-circular holes of different sizes and contains a collection of cylindrical stone blocks used to melt and mix clay.

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Originally posted by Doug M:


A-Group "nubia" was created explicitly by George Reistner based on a racist ideology that separated ancient "Nubia" as the boundary between black African culture and white Egyptian culture on the Nile Valley going into prehistory. That is found in his own writings on the subject.

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Originally posted by beyoku:

^ Even if they were biologically identical....An Ancient Nubian fully pastoral group speaking Nilo-Saharan vs a sedentary agricultural Egyptian speaking Nile Valley group are not the same. IMO.

The differences among themselves are what we today would recognize as different Ethnicities of the same race of people.

Yoruba and Igbo are damn near identical in genomic research...they inhabit the same country, they are not the same thing.

Oromo and Somali are damn near identical, Oromo just have more variability. Much of their ancestry comes from the same admixture event. Somali are not "Ethiopian" even though some Somali live IN modern Ethiopia. Insert Amhara, all 3 groups are Horn Africans. All 3 have a Omotic genetic substratum....maximized in Oromo, minimized in Somali. All 3 have Levantine ancestry, maximized in Amhara, minimized in Somali. The same type of ancestry cline is going to be similar among Egypt and Nubians.....Egyptians are going to have Ancestry that is absent or minimized in Nubians and Nubians are going to have ancestry that is minimized or Absent Egyptians.

The fact that Euroclowns have played race games does not make these populations "the same". Saying they are "the same" dumbs things way down to a simpleton level and ES is years past that....or is it?

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I forgot to respond to this but you are on point, Beyoku! It seems the Euronuts are playing the tactic of mixing ethnic identity with biological ('race') identity. They do this to muddy the waters. Remember how they did that with that old Tishkoff study which shows Amhara have 40% West Asian admixture which they distorted as all Ethiopians. Years later they exaggerated the claim further to say all East Africans have 40% Eurasian admixture LOL .
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Nubia is a vast region.
At any period in time various peoples inhabited it.
Calling them Nubians?
What is similarly nefarious, to me?
Calling the inhabitants of Europe Europeans, be they Hungarian or Irish.

Junker removed Nubians from the black peoples of Africa. link

Terms I have problems with?
A group and C group for Nile Valley Lower Nubians.
Predynastic: Why still call Ta Seti A group?
OK thru NK: Why still call Wawat C group?
Preference for Reisner over that of prime documents I suppose.

If it weren't for the Christian era on up to now, Kush would be the best replacement for Nubia.
It's perfect for times before Nubae came into use courtesy of Erastothenes during the Ptolemaic, 2nd cent BCE.
Since then, and the times Red&Black Noba come on the scene and Axum axed 'Meroe', Nubia becomes more appropriate than Kush.


Ta Seti _______________________________________ Wawat (in yellow and green)


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
This is the Egyptology forum, right?

Nubia is a valid legitimate term and nothing's wrong with using it.

It's appropriate though to use more exact words to assure meaning because it's a vast area with many different peoples.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Nubia is a vast region.
At any period in time various peoples inhabited it.
Calling them Nubians?
What is similarly nefarious?
Calling the inhabitants of Europe Europeans, be they Hungarian or Irish.

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Junker removed Nubians from the black peoples of Africa. link

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Terms I have problems with?
A group and C group for Nile Valley Lower Nubians.
Predynastic: Why still call Ta Seti A group?
OK - NK: Why still call Wawat C group?
Preference for Reisner over that of prime documents I suppose.

If it weren't for the Christian era on up to now Kush would be the best replacement for Nubia.
It's perfect for times before Nubae came into use courtesy of Erastothenes during the Ptolemaic.
Since then and the times Axum axed Meroe and Red&Black Noba come on the scene, Nubia becomes more appropriate than Kush.

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A-Group "nubia" was created explicitly by George Reistner based on a racist ideology that separated ancient "Nubia" as the boundary between black African culture and white Egyptian culture on the Nile Valley going into prehistory. That is found in his own writings on the subject.

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[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Nubia is a vast region.
At any period in time various peoples inhabited it.
Calling them Nubians?
What is similarly nefarious, to me?
Calling the inhabitants of Europe Europeans, be they Hungarian or Irish.

Junker removed Nubians from the black peoples of Africa. link

Terms I have problems with?
A group and C group for Nile Valley Lower Nubians.
Predynastic: Why still call Ta Seti A group?
OK thru NK: Why still call Wawat C group?
Preference for Reisner over that of prime documents I suppose.

If it weren't for the Christian era on up to now, Kush would be the best replacement for Nubia.
It's perfect for times before Nubae came into use courtesy of Erastothenes during the Ptolemaic, 2nd cent BCE.
Since then, and the times Red&Black Noba come on the scene and Axum axed 'Meroe', Nubia becomes more appropriate than Kush.


Ta Seti _______________________________________ Wawat (in yellow and green)

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It is interesting to note that in this context no royal gifts have been excavated in Pre-Kerma culture cemeteries, the graves of which in fact, contain almost genuine Egyptian artifacts. This marked absence of egyptian objects in the material remains of Pre-Kerma culture strongly reinforces the suggestion that the Egyptians were dealing directly and exclusively with their mercantile relations with their A-Group Nubian counterparts. Lower Nubia emerges during this period as a buffer zone between Egypt proper and the regions of Africa further to the South.

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Evidence indicates that during the Neolithic phase, from the sixth to the fourth millennia BC, a population settled the fertile Dongola Reach and began practicing agriculture and domesticating animals.1 Archeological excavations in the region have yielded some of the earliest evidence for the practice of agriculture and animal husbandry in the world. The Dongola population has consequently come to play a role in the spread of agriculture to the Near East and other parts of Africa.

As early as the fifth or mid-fourth millennia BC, the Dongola Reach has been the center of culture and civilization in Sudan, particularly along the Nile Valley. The pre-Kerma society, named after the area of Kerma in the Dongola Reach, forms one of the oldest civilized cultures in the world beside that of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

The predominantly agro-pastoral community of pre-Kerma was a center of commerce; pottery included imports from different areas of the Nile, including Egypt.2 By 3000 BC, the area was transformed into a thriving town with an organized urban infrastructure. Governed by a centralized authority, pre-Kerma was a fully developed polity. The town was highly organized; politically, economically, and socially.

Particularly interesting was the layout of the town, which indicates an advanced level of planning and an elaborate defense system. A variety of utilitarian and public buildings were found within the area. A number of buildings with post holes appear to have functioned as centers of administration. Numerous huts seem to have been residences for privileged individuals. Other structures defined include storage houses, workshops, and cattle enclosures.

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garage in Cornwall, UK, seems an unlikely place for a piece of prehistoric Egyptian culture to turn up. But a few months ago it did.

I was recently contacted by a couple, Guy Funnell and Amanda Hawkins, who had just watched the BBC documentary The Man Who Discovered Egypt which profiled the career of Flinders Petrie. The name rang a bell and reminded them of a little broken pot they had tucked away in storage. Associated with it was a yellow, curling label bearing the title ‘Libyan Pottery’

The vase this note relates to is not something we would call ‘Libyan Pottery’ today. Nowadays we can recognise it as distinctly Egyptian and characteristically Predynastic.

It is a classic example of what Petrie called ‘Black-topped pottery’ or ‘B-ware’. His excavations at the huge cemetery of Naqada had revealed hundreds of such vessels, which were so striking that he first described them as ‘wholly un-Egyptian’. Instead, Petrie thought that these things belonged to a ‘New Race’, possibly invaders from Libya.

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The Sequence Dates

The method used by Petrie for dating the Naqada Period pottery was first described in Petrie 1901: 4-8 and later again in Petrie 1920: 3-4. For a detailed description see there. See a table of pottery arranged according to the Sequence Dates.

1. Petrie divided the pottery into nine different types/classes

2. Petrie took the wavy-handled pottery as guide line. He recognised gradual change from globular to narrow cylindrical types. The globular are the older while the cylindrical are the later types which he found in the royal tombs of the First Dynasty in Abydos.

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[QUOTE]
Abstract The Naqada relative chronology form s the main cultural framework for the Predynastic period of ancient Egypt. It was devised in the late nineteenth century by Flinders Petrie to facilitate understanding of the prehistoric origins of the Egyptian state . Petrie’s approach served as the blueprint for similar system s across the world and formed the basis for the development of s eriation. In this study, we test the reliability of t he Naqada relative chronology as a dating tool against all the relevant radiocarbon information . The results show that the main blocks of the relative sequence do form a true chronology , but also indicate that the system is much less reliable at the level of individual phases. The nature of the discrepancies and the influence of the relative chronology on current understanding of Early Egypt are discussed.

Introduction
The first relative chronology based on the sequencing of ar tefacts was developed for the Predynastic period of ancient Egypt . The brainchild of Flinders Petrie , Sequence Dating ( Petrie 1899) was an innovative response to the absence of clear stratigraphy at many of the key sites . The relative chronology soon became the main c ultural framework for the Predynastic – the crucial period of time that demarcates the emergence of the Egypt state. Moreover, Petrie’s methodology was a breakthrough for empirical archaeology and laid the groundwork for techniques such as seriation and artefact -­- b ased cladistics ( Ford and Willey 1949; Brainerd 1951; O’Brien and Lyman 2000).

Petrie conceived his method whilst analysing the ceramic assemblages of the Upper Egyptian cemeteries of Naqada, Ballas and Diospolis Parva (Petrie and Quibell 1896; Petrie 189 9). He began by defining more than 700 types of funerary ceramics and then divid ing t he full corpus int o 9 main classes , largely on the basis of morphology and finish, but also on material composition ( Petrie and Quibell 1896) . He then focused his attention on the 900 + excavated tombs that contained 5 or more types of pottery . Petrie listed the types found in each grave on strips of card and then set about arranging them in order to minimise variation between adjacent cards . He d efined such variation using qualitative terms like ‘ proportionate resemblance ’ and ‘ similarity of style ’. His intention was to construct a continuum that show ed incremental change in pottery styles over time. In addition, Petrie also looked for chronological information within individual ceramic classes , deducing that s ome types showed a ‘ degradation of form ’ with the passage of time . The archetypical example was the W -­- ware ( Wavy -­- handled pots) . Petrie interpreted this class as having d evelop ed from globular shape s with wavy handles to cylindrical forms embellished with wavy decorations (Petrie 1899) . S uch assumptions were , however, highly informed by the evolutionary gradualism prevalent within the academic milieu of late 19 th century Britain (see Lane Fox 1870; 1875 ; Tylor 1871). D ue to the subsequent hegemony of Petrie’s chronology , such assumptions have had unintended consequences for the study of Early Egypt. One of the most persistent has been the view that the trajectory of Egyptian state form ation mirrored the linear and incremental progression of the ceramic sequences. Much effort has been made over recent decades to explain how misleading this interpretation has been and how poorly matched it is to the archaeological evidence (Friedman 1994; Wengrow 2006; Dee et al . 2013).

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The arrangement of this volume is determined by the occurrence in Mr. Quibell's ground of the most decisive evidence as to the date of the foreign remains of a hitherto unsuspected invasion ; as this forms the ground-work of our historical view of the results, it comes first in this volume, in chapters I to V. After his description of the produce of his work in the purely Egyptian remains (ch. I, II), and next in those of the new race of foreigners (ch. III~V), there follows the account of the results of my own work on this same New Race (ch. VI-IX), Mr. Spurrell's account of the flints (ch. X), the historical con- clusions (ch. XI), and lastly, the description of the temple of Nubt (ch. XII), the centre of the worship of Set.

The presence of a body of invaders in Upper Egypt, which was as yet unknown, required us to coin some phrase to distinguish them in brief use, until their position and connection may be established, so that they may be really named descriptively. As the favourite German phrase of nescience, x, is rather confusing if too generally applied, when every imaginable thing gets j^d, we have used as a tentative denomination, the "New Race." When they acquire a fixed standing, and may have a specific title, this temporary phrase may fall away. Meanwhile "New Race," or N. R. remains, mean those which belong exclusively to certain invaders of Egypt of the type here described, which is entirely different to any known among native Egyptians.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Nile Valley Blackout. From 18th century anthropology/Egyptology through 2018 genetics. Same beat.

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More like the Whiteout.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ At least those old time white academics were more honest about their biases than they are today.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley – K Godde July 2018

Abstract
The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years, were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance. A principal coordinates analysis and spatial-temporal model were applied to these data. The results reveal temporal and spatial patterning consistent with documented events in Egyptian and Nubian population history. Moreover, the Mesolithic Nubian sample clustered with later Nubian and Egyptian samples, indicating that events prior to the Mesolithic were important in shaping the later genetic patterning of the Nubian population. Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos **maintained **genetic similarity among the populations.

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The Eastern Desert of Egypt and Sudan, linking the Nile to the Red Sea, has been of strategic importance for the great cultures ruling in the region, like the ancient Egyptian and later Ptolemaic kingdoms and the Roman empires. These deserts areas are rich in mineral resources, including gold, and were also essential for trade routes linking North Africa to the East. While these cultures largely were centered on the Nile valley, access to the desert areas with valuable resources and important trade routes was controlled by the indigenous desert tribes. Due to the largely nomadic lifestyle of these indigenous peoples there are few historic monuments witnessing their historic presence and their material culture in this region is not well known. However, some sites exist and Nubt is one of the most remarkable indigenous sites in the area. The site has, however, never been excavated or even properly mapped. In light of the present gold digging and plundering taking place in its environs, it is urgent that the structures there be documented.

In the presentation I will present our recent trip to Nubt were we mapped the site with RPAS (drone) technology.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


The area known today as Sudan may have been the scene of pivotal human evolutionary events, both as a corridor for ancient and modern migrations, as well as the venue of crucial past cultural evolution. Several questions pertaining to the pattern of succession of the different groups in early Sudan have been raised. To shed light on these aspects, ancient DNA (aDNA) and present DNA collection were made and studied using Y-chromosome markers for aDNA, and Y-chromosome and mtDNA markers for present DNA. Bone samples from different skeletal elements of burial sites from Neolithic, Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods in Sudan were collected from Sudan National Museum. aDNA extraction was successful in 35 out of 76 samples, PCR was performed for sex determination using Amelogenin marker. Fourteen samples were females and 19 were males. To generate Y-chromosome specific haplogroups A-M13, B-M60, F-M89 and Y Alu Polymorphism (YAP) markers, which define the deep ancestral haplotypes in the phylogenetic tree of Y-chromosome were used. Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.

https://www.docdroid.net/8GAIp0X/genetic-patterns-of-y-chromosome-and-mitochondrial-hassan-2009.pdf

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Nubia is a vast region.
At any period in time various peoples inhabited it.
Calling them Nubians?
What is similarly nefarious, to me?
Calling the inhabitants of Europe Europeans, be they Hungarian or Irish.

Junker removed Nubians from the black peoples of Africa. link

Terms I have problems with?
A group and C group for Nile Valley Lower Nubians.
Predynastic: Why still call Ta Seti A group?
OK thru NK: Why still call Wawat C group?
Preference for Reisner over that of prime documents I suppose.

If it weren't for the Christian era on up to now, Kush would be the best replacement for Nubia.
It's perfect for times before Nubae came into use courtesy of Erastothenes during the Ptolemaic, 2nd cent BCE.
Since then, and the times Red&Black Noba come on the scene and Axum axed 'Meroe', Nubia becomes more appropriate than Kush.


Ta Seti _______________________________________ Wawat (in yellow and green)

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Agreed. There are plenty of more historically accurate terms to use over the course of the history of the Nile Valley than just using "Nubia". By that logic, why not call everything along the Nile above Aswan (or below if you prefer) Egypt no matter the time period? They don't do this anywhere else in the world but they do it in "Nubia". 3,000 years ago nobody calls the populations in the area of modern France "French", because it didn't exist as a cultural or political entity. Same thing should apply to so-called "Nubia". More accurate terms like ancient Kerma, Khartoum Mesolithic, Nabta Playa, Kush, Meroe make a lot more sense.


I am not personally talking about the word "Nubian" as in and of itself being bad. The point I am making is that the usage of the term 'Nubia' going back into the prehistory of the Nile Valley prior to and during the rise of the predynastic is purely designed to segregate the Nile Valley into "black" nubia and "white" Egypt. This is precisely about Egyptology and Egyptology only. And that Egyptological use of the term has nothing to do with the actual biological relationships of populations in the Nile Valley during the thousands of years leading up to the rise of KMT. Reisner's naming of "Nubian" prehistory is based on pottery styles and not on human remains. Later anthropologists added remains to the mix but still maintaining Reisner's naming convention and maintaining the underlying assumption that these populations were "racially" different from the populations in PreDynastic Egypt.

Hence, to the point of the thread there is rarely any actual biological or anthropological assessment done of any of these ancient "Nubian" remains by Egyptology. As far as they are concerned, "Nubia" is the only black history on the Nile Valley. Therefore, no DNA needs to be analyzed and no cranial relationships need to be plotted.....

The only reason modern anthropologists consider ancient "Nubians" to be racially distinct from Egyptians is because of Egyptology. As far as mainstream Egyptology is concerned ancient Egypt was a result of Eurasian migration which created a racial identity in Egypt separate from the rest of "black" Africa represented by "Nubia". Hence, the DNA from Abusir will remain the defacto representation for all AE populations for many years, not because other mummies aren't available and not because the science isn't capable of extracting DNA from other remains. It is because Egyptology was founded on racism and promoting that vision of the Nile Valley. Hence it isn't shocking that actual DNA from across the Nile Valley between Lower Sudan and Upper Egypt from the far distant past would show these populations were not racially distinct. That is common sense. But Egyptology was founded on contradicting common sense and logic.

The Book "Daily Life of the Nubians" promotes this nonsense about "Nubia" being a continuous ethno-political-cultural entity along the Nile going back to pre-history. That is absolute garbage and only exists to segregate "black" Nile Valley history from "Egyptian" Nile Valley history.

He even says:

quote:

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It is interesting to note that in this context no royal gifts have been excavated in Pre-Kerma culture cemeteries, the graves of which in fact, contain almost genuine Egyptian artifacts. This marked absence of egyptian objects in the material remains of Pre-Kerma culture strongly reinforces the suggestion that the Egyptians were dealing directly and exclusively with their mercantile relations with their A-Group Nubian counterparts. Lower Nubia emerges during this period as a buffer zone between Egypt proper and the regions of Africa further to the South.

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https://books.google.com/books?id=Ui9Qwtp-LV4C&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=reisner+a-group+nubia&source=bl&ots=7yn3gsMFmB&sig=krgQVM0aKO2v9O1wqC-h7_WXw1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzse3riI3dAh UQc98KHd75AEcQ6AEwCXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=reisner%20a-group%20nubia&f=false

In other words a buffer between "white" Egypt and "black" Africa. The problem with this statement is it is blantantly nonsense. First, pre-kerma existed from the 4th Millenium BC. In other words prior to the rise of KMT, so there couln't have been any trade from "Egypt". In fact, Pre-Kerma was the cultural center of the Nile Valley and the traditions of pottery and other cultural traits spread there to the North. On top of that, as previously noted, the primary gold mines in that part of the Nile Valley from which Egypt got its gold were local and around Aswan. They didn't need "Nubian buffers" to trade with other black Africans to the South. Ta-Seti rose to power from the gold trade and eventually formed part of the predynastic Egyptian state, which is why Ta-Seti is the first nome of Upper Egypt. This is the part they don't want to admit and this is what this fake "Nubian" complex is designed to cover up. Because again "Nubt" was the center of the gold trade in predynastic Egypt, which means the populations of Ta-Seti were trading with and forming larger political structures with other populations along the Nile as the basis for what they call the "Naqada" period.

quote:

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Evidence indicates that during the Neolithic phase, from the sixth to the fourth millennia BC, a population settled the fertile Dongola Reach and began practicing agriculture and domesticating animals.1 Archeological excavations in the region have yielded some of the earliest evidence for the practice of agriculture and animal husbandry in the world. The Dongola population has consequently come to play a role in the spread of agriculture to the Near East and other parts of Africa.

As early as the fifth or mid-fourth millennia BC, the Dongola Reach has been the center of culture and civilization in Sudan, particularly along the Nile Valley. The pre-Kerma society, named after the area of Kerma in the Dongola Reach, forms one of the oldest civilized cultures in the world beside that of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

The predominantly agro-pastoral community of pre-Kerma was a center of commerce; pottery included imports from different areas of the Nile, including Egypt.2 By 3000 BC, the area was transformed into a thriving town with an organized urban infrastructure. Governed by a centralized authority, pre-Kerma was a fully developed polity. The town was highly organized; politically, economically, and socially.

Particularly interesting was the layout of the town, which indicates an advanced level of planning and an elaborate defense system. A variety of utilitarian and public buildings were found within the area. A number of buildings with post holes appear to have functioned as centers of administration. Numerous huts seem to have been residences for privileged individuals. Other structures defined include storage houses, workshops, and cattle enclosures.

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http://www.ancientsudan.org/history_14_pre_kerma.htm

And again, this is all about pottery styles and even before Reisner, Petrie was using pottery to identify "races" as in a "new race" of invaders to Egypt that supposedly created the culture there.... Again, black topped pottery originated in Pre-Kerma and Nabta Playa. But to hear them tell it, it came from somewhere outside the Nile Valley.

quote:

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garage in Cornwall, UK, seems an unlikely place for a piece of prehistoric Egyptian culture to turn up. But a few months ago it did.

I was recently contacted by a couple, Guy Funnell and Amanda Hawkins, who had just watched the BBC documentary The Man Who Discovered Egypt which profiled the career of Flinders Petrie. The name rang a bell and reminded them of a little broken pot they had tucked away in storage. Associated with it was a yellow, curling label bearing the title ‘Libyan Pottery’

The vase this note relates to is not something we would call ‘Libyan Pottery’ today. Nowadays we can recognise it as distinctly Egyptian and characteristically Predynastic.

It is a classic example of what Petrie called ‘Black-topped pottery’ or ‘B-ware’. His excavations at the huge cemetery of Naqada had revealed hundreds of such vessels, which were so striking that he first described them as ‘wholly un-Egyptian’. Instead, Petrie thought that these things belonged to a ‘New Race’, possibly invaders from Libya.

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http://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/museums/2014/03/11/a-piece-of-a-giant-jigsaw-a-newly-re-discovered-pot-from-naqada/

Naqada pottery is truly "Nubian" pottery as it comes from the town of "Nubt", the gold trading town that was the center of pre-dynastic culture. And of course that gold came from between Aswan and the second cataract, which means trade between black African cultures in and around "Nubt" and the black cultures around the 1st and second cataract. This power and wealth would have attracted traders and settlers from across the Nile Valley and that wealth and population density and cultural solidification created the conditions for the rise of Upper Egyptian elites who had the power and organization to unify the country. But this is what they won't tell you. They have to make up all sorts of nonsensical models of pre-dynastic hsitory to separate Egypt from the rest of the Nile Valley in order to promote racial fantasies...... That is the point. Technically Naqada/Nubt is your "B-Group" and the Pre-Kerma cattle culture extending from the 3rd cataract to Nabta Playa and Aswan was you 'A-Group', which included Ta-Seti (land of the bow... since Africans have been using bows and arrows since forever-before anybody else on the planet).

It is Petrie's "sequence dating system" for pottery that is the basis of the naming of the Egyptian predynastic periods. And Reisner followed after Petrie and created his "Nubian" dating system. Both of them believed in racial hierarchies in the ancient Nile Valley.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lFscBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=naqada+nubt&source=bl&ots=5grPr9ZuJ9&sig=LaK1W4xk_viiqRTqZY2euFSTiSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPtcKNm43dAhXJnOAKHZWj Ars4FBDoATABegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=naqada%20nubt&f=false

quote:

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The Sequence Dates

The method used by Petrie for dating the Naqada Period pottery was first described in Petrie 1901: 4-8 and later again in Petrie 1920: 3-4. For a detailed description see there. See a table of pottery arranged according to the Sequence Dates.

1. Petrie divided the pottery into nine different types/classes

2. Petrie took the wavy-handled pottery as guide line. He recognised gradual change from globular to narrow cylindrical types. The globular are the older while the cylindrical are the later types which he found in the royal tombs of the First Dynasty in Abydos.

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https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/naqadan/sqdates.html

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[QUOTE]
Abstract The Naqada relative chronology form s the main cultural framework for the Predynastic period of ancient Egypt. It was devised in the late nineteenth century by Flinders Petrie to facilitate understanding of the prehistoric origins of the Egyptian state . Petrie’s approach served as the blueprint for similar system s across the world and formed the basis for the development of s eriation. In this study, we test the reliability of t he Naqada relative chronology as a dating tool against all the relevant radiocarbon information . The results show that the main blocks of the relative sequence do form a true chronology , but also indicate that the system is much less reliable at the level of individual phases. The nature of the discrepancies and the influence of the relative chronology on current understanding of Early Egypt are discussed.

Introduction
The first relative chronology based on the sequencing of ar tefacts was developed for the Predynastic period of ancient Egypt . The brainchild of Flinders Petrie , Sequence Dating ( Petrie 1899) was an innovative response to the absence of clear stratigraphy at many of the key sites . The relative chronology soon became the main c ultural framework for the Predynastic – the crucial period of time that demarcates the emergence of the Egypt state. Moreover, Petrie’s methodology was a breakthrough for empirical archaeology and laid the groundwork for techniques such as seriation and artefact -­- b ased cladistics ( Ford and Willey 1949; Brainerd 1951; O’Brien and Lyman 2000).

Petrie conceived his method whilst analysing the ceramic assemblages of the Upper Egyptian cemeteries of Naqada, Ballas and Diospolis Parva (Petrie and Quibell 1896; Petrie 189 9). He began by defining more than 700 types of funerary ceramics and then divid ing t he full corpus int o 9 main classes , largely on the basis of morphology and finish, but also on material composition ( Petrie and Quibell 1896) . He then focused his attention on the 900 + excavated tombs that contained 5 or more types of pottery . Petrie listed the types found in each grave on strips of card and then set about arranging them in order to minimise variation between adjacent cards . He d efined such variation using qualitative terms like ‘ proportionate resemblance ’ and ‘ similarity of style ’. His intention was to construct a continuum that show ed incremental change in pottery styles over time. In addition, Petrie also looked for chronological information within individual ceramic classes , deducing that s ome types showed a ‘ degradation of form ’ with the passage of time . The archetypical example was the W -­- ware ( Wavy -­- handled pots) . Petrie interpreted this class as having d evelop ed from globular shape s with wavy handles to cylindrical forms embellished with wavy decorations (Petrie 1899) . S uch assumptions were , however, highly informed by the evolutionary gradualism prevalent within the academic milieu of late 19 th century Britain (see Lane Fox 1870; 1875 ; Tylor 1871). D ue to the subsequent hegemony of Petrie’s chronology , such assumptions have had unintended consequences for the study of Early Egypt. One of the most persistent has been the view that the trajectory of Egyptian state form ation mirrored the linear and incremental progression of the ceramic sequences. Much effort has been made over recent decades to explain how misleading this interpretation has been and how poorly matched it is to the archaeological evidence (Friedman 1994; Wengrow 2006; Dee et al . 2013).

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http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1433817/1/Wengrow_Manuscript.pdf

Note that Petrie's writings on the discoveries at Naqada and Ballas are overtly and blatantly racist.

quote:

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The arrangement of this volume is determined by the occurrence in Mr. Quibell's ground of the most decisive evidence as to the date of the foreign remains of a hitherto unsuspected invasion ; as this forms the ground-work of our historical view of the results, it comes first in this volume, in chapters I to V. After his description of the produce of his work in the purely Egyptian remains (ch. I, II), and next in those of the new race of foreigners (ch. III~V), there follows the account of the results of my own work on this same New Race (ch. VI-IX), Mr. Spurrell's account of the flints (ch. X), the historical con- clusions (ch. XI), and lastly, the description of the temple of Nubt (ch. XII), the centre of the worship of Set.

The presence of a body of invaders in Upper Egypt, which was as yet unknown, required us to coin some phrase to distinguish them in brief use, until their position and connection may be established, so that they may be really named descriptively. As the favourite German phrase of nescience, x, is rather confusing if too generally applied, when every imaginable thing gets j^d, we have used as a tentative denomination, the "New Race." When they acquire a fixed standing, and may have a specific title, this temporary phrase may fall away. Meanwhile "New Race," or N. R. remains, mean those which belong exclusively to certain invaders of Egypt of the type here described, which is entirely different to any known among native Egyptians.

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https://archive.org/details/cu31924028748261

So Petrie's "new race" in Naqada/Nubt is the first punch, followed by Reisner's "Nubia" (as separate from "Nubt"/Naqada) and then continued by other scholars upholding the conventions of the other two. These people are the founding fathers of Egyptology and explicitly it is based on racism and a framework of basing AE history on race and a model of white skin superiority and racism in pre-history, which is taught to every student studying Egyptology to this day.

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quote:

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“The museum was paying Reisner to be there and spending lots and lots of money. So he wanted to find things he could bring back and put in the museum,” Doxey said. “But he was also a scholar. And in some ways, it was a symbiotic relationship that the museum wanted him to bring back artwork."

The story of ancient Nubia and ancient Egypt is one of two neighboring kingdoms who fought, but intermingled. Over time they shared beliefs, craftsmanship, and culture. Throughout the galleries, among the artifacts, are videos of different people reflecting on the modern day legacy of ancient Nubia and how it resonates.

In one video, biological anthropologist Shomarka Keita, research affiliate in the Department of Anthropology at the Smithsonian Institution, talks to the issue of race and what he calls a deep shared ancestry of these societies in the Sahara.

"Ancient Nubia and Ancient Egypt share roots, in northeast Africa in the Sahara and along the Nile Valley," Keita said. "There is no evidence that the ancient Egyptians who did medicine, who made observations and sometimes detailed artwork about the environment around them, animals, plants, there is no evidence that they had a theory of human variation that would be commensurate or similar to notions of race as they were developed in Europe."

In another video, Lana Bashir, a student at University of Massachusetts Lowell, gives insight into her own Sudanese heritage and the importance of representation.

"When I look at the statues it gives me this new perspective that you don't always get to see," Bashir said. "...It's rare that you get to see that Africa is full of kings and queens and art and culture."

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quote:

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The reconstructed head, as well as the hair of Idu II. of ancient Egypt at the Roemer- and Pelizaeus museum in Hildesheim, Germany, 24 January 2017. The head and hair from the year 2200 B.C. were created on the foundation of a digital face reconstruction of the once high officer. The mummy of Idu II. lying in the front is one of very few mummies preserved of the Old Kingdom.

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https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-conservator-madeleine-alsen-presents-the-reconstructed-news-photo/1042288834

Now this guy lived under Pepi II:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PepiI-KneelingStatuette_BrooklynMuseum.png
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The bottom line is that the Egyptologists never "lost" Nubia. They made it up. The bible talks about Kush, not Nubia because there was no "Nubia" i the ancient world at that time.

Egyptologists are now trying to say that they want to "correct the historical reocrd" on Nubia as proof that ancient Africans were able to build civilization. However, the problem with that statement is that it implies that Ancient KMT was NOT African civilization..... So this is still the same old same and even Keita is going along with it and soft shoeing around the fact that ancient Egypt was just as black.


"Ancient Nubia and Ancient Egypt share roots, in northeast Africa in the Sahara and along the Nile Valley," Keita said. "There is no evidence that the ancient Egyptians who did medicine, who made observations and sometimes detailed artwork about the environment around them, animals, plants, there is no evidence that they had a theory of human variation that would be commensurate or similar to notions of race as they were developed in Europe."

In another video, Lana Bashir, a student at University of Massachusetts Lowell, gives insight into her own Sudanese heritage and the importance of representation.

"When I look at the statues it gives me this new perspective that you don't always get to see," Bashir said. "...It's rare that you get to see that Africa is full of kings and queens and art and culture."

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/--why-did-the-nubian-youth-forum-in-egypt-get-angry--.BJ3UXW7T7.html

(excerpt)

Why did the Nubian Youth Forum in Egypt get angry?

11/9/2018, 7:53:39 AM

The "Encounter Point" at the World Youth Forum in Sharm el-Sheikh raised the anger of the Nubians in Egypt.

The Nubians / Nubia tribes live on the banks of the Nile River in the north of the Sudan and the southernmost of Egypt for thousands of years.

The Nubians were angry because of the sixth minute of the film, which included a recording of a Nubian family saying "We are Nubians Jain (coming) from Sudan and settled in Aswan Governorate (southern Egypt)."

About 70 public figures have announced their rejection of the Nubia part of the film "Encounter Point" and have asked the forum's organizing committee to apologize for what they considered a "serious mistake" and to delete the scenes from the film.


The websites have been filled with dozens of angry tweets, including a chant to Abdurrahman Al-Omda, who wrote: "Public falsification of the facts in a snapshot of a film presented at the Young People's Congress. We do not write history, history writes us, we are the Nubians and we are still people of language, "No one is able to obliterate our identity, it is not our pride, but history always attests to us."

"The borders of Nubia from the first waterfall to the sixth waterfall, and it was an independent kingdom before the Egyptian civilization for more than 23,000 years, we are not Egyptians and we are not refugees," said Abdullah Sayed.

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So the point of view is stated in the last sentence in the above paragraph.
He says we (Nubians)are not Egyptians but also not migrants to Egypt, not "refugees" he says
Some other Nubians interviewed for the film had said they were from only from Sudan.
But this angered other Nubians who said while they were not Egyptians culturally but they were an independent people whose land also included not only along the river in Northern Sudan but also in southern Egypt.

The remark pertains to their ancient land rights that overlaps parts of two nations
not culturally identifying as Egyptian.

He said " "The borders of Nubia from the first waterfall to the sixth waterfall, and it was an independent kingdom before the Egyptian civilization.

________________________

"waterfall"

Although the word “cataracts” is derived from the Greek word for “waterfall,” the region is not, in fact, made up of waterfalls, although there are true ones along the route of the Nile.




He was referencing the six cataracts between Khartoum and Aswan, "Nubia"

what they didn't like was someone who did not include the Egyptian geographical parts along with the parts in Sudan because they want their land rights there also

_________________________________________


These are my questions for Doug

1) Modern people in Egypt call themselves Nubian
should they stop calling themselves Nubian?
If not what should people in southern Egypt who call themselves Nubian call themselves ethnically?
I'm not talking national citizenship. They could drop "Nubian", say they are Egyptian nationals and
ethnically are of various Nubian language groups,
Nobiin, Kenzi, Midrab etc


2) According to the above opinion of a person in Egypt who calls himself Nubian he thinks he is part of a people independent of ancient Egypt with their own language and culture but have lived for many thousand of years on land that includes part of Sudan and part of Egypt and Nubians living in these areas have national rights as per which of these two countries they live in.
Is this entirely correct or are the modern people who call themselves Nubians actually decedents of the the dynastic Egyptians?
 

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Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
Exactly and this is why Egyptologists do not use the term Kush because they want to take Nubt out of Egypt and make it a synonym. This is my only issue with the term Nubian. If it’s being used in its proper historical context to refer to The City of Nubt then it’s fine. However it becomes problematic if it’s being used as a Synonym for Kush. This is all done intentionally to Rob The Nubians of their true Indigenous Egyptian Heritage. Sadly many Nubians have bought into this lie and are now claiming the history of Kush which belongs to The Dinka/Nuer.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ you and Doug are not on the same page. You make a new thread each day with the word "Nubian" in it and he thinks the word Nubian is a colonizer's word and should not be used and he's been saying that for years.

As for modern people self identifying as Nubian who say that their origin is one of the cities of Nubt in particular you have not shown evidence of any of them saying that

As for references to the people of Nubt being mentioned in Egyptian texts you have not provided any

Doug also does not subscribe to your idea which is
to change the modern use of "Nubian" to mean "people originating in Nubt"
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:


Now this guy lived under Pepi II:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PepiI-KneelingStatuette_BrooklynMuseum.png

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you have a picture here from the Brooklyn Museum
and you are calling it "guy lived under Pepi II"
But the description says

"
Kneeling Statuette of Pepy I
This statuette depicts King Pepy I

https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/3448

____________________

wikipedia:

Pepi I (6th dynasty)

Pepi I's reign was marked by aggressive expansion into Nubia, the spread of trade to far-flung areas such as Lebanon and the Somali coast, but also the growing power of the nobility. One of the king's officials named Weni fought in Asia on his behalf.
Pepi I married two sisters – Ankhesenpepi I and II – who were the daughters of Khui, a noble from Abydos and Lady Nebet, made vizier of Upper Egypt. Pepi later made their brother, Djau, a vizier as well. The two sisters' influence was extensive, with both sisters bearing sons who were later to become pharaohs.



Lifesize copper statue, Pepi I, Cairo Museum
 

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Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
Me and him don’t have to agree. I’ve already proven The Nubians to be Indigenous to Egypt so them being from Nubt cannot be disputed. Just because you see some of them saying otherwise means nothing. They are the ruling class in Sudan so it’s beneficial for them to Identify with Kushite history because the quality of life is better for them there. However none of this changes the fact that they are Egyptians. They are capable of spreading misinformation about themselves just like any other people would to fit their needs.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Obviously the point is:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PepiI-KneelingStatuette_BrooklynMuseum.png [/QB][/QUOTE]

And this:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%84gyptisches_Museum_Leipzig_106.jpg


And this:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Statue_Senusret_II_Lille.jpg

Are no different than this:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Neues_Museum_-_Sphinx_de_Chepenoupet_II_-_face.jpg



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Two_statuettes_of_kushite_kings.jpg

Are all representations of black people/pharaohs.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

Are all representations of black people/pharaohs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Pepi I (6th dynasty)

Pepi I's reign was marked by aggressive expansion into Nubia, the spread of trade to far-flung areas such as Lebanon and the Somali coast, but also the growing power of the nobility. One of the king's officials named Weni fought in Asia on his behalf.
Pepi I married two sisters – Ankhesenpepi I and II – who were the daughters of Khui, a noble from Abydos and Lady Nebet, made vizier of Upper Egypt. Pepi later made their brother, Djau, a vizier as well. The two sisters' influence was extensive, with both sisters bearing sons who were later to become pharaohs.



Lifesize copper statue, Pepi I, Cairo Museum

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Interesting, Pepinakht (ppjj-nḫt - "[King] Pepi is strong"[1]).





Statue of Pepi I (2289-2255 BC) detail of the head, found at Hierakonpolis - Egyptian




Tomb of Pepi-nakht Tomb #35 Aswan

Inside the main chamber of the Tomb, chamber 35d
 

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Posted by HeartofAfrica (Member # 23268) on :
 
Makes sense that they are related.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
bump
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
In my mind, the only true "Nubians" are the speakers of Nubian languages, such as the Nobatae, Makurians, or modern Nubians. And these would have become more prominent in the Middle Nile region after the collapse of Kush in the 4th century AD:


It's possible that the Kushite language shared a common Nilo-Saharan linguistic heritage with the Nubian family, but otherwise I believe the people of Kush were a separate ethnic group from the ancestors of modern Nubians. The people of Wawat (aka the C-Group), Medjay, Yam, and maybe Ta-Seti (aka the A-Group) likewise were their own nationalities. And yet they all get lumped into the "Nubian" identity simply because they inhabited the Middle Nile Valley.

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By the way do you consider the noba(nubians)of today ethnically the same as the kushites/kerma nubians?or a mostly different civilization from kush even if the noba interrmarried with kushites and got alot of influence from them?

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Doctor winters for example always go on to say they are basically a different ethnic group and civililzation.

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The linguistic affiliation of the Kerma culture is currently unknown, and membership to both the Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic language families has been proposed.


According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the Kerma peoples spoke Afroasiatic languages of the Cushitic branch. They propose that the Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of proto-Highland East Cushitic origin, including the terms for sheep/goatskin, hen/cock, livestock enclosure, butter and milk. They argue that this in turn suggests that the Kerma population — which, along with the C-Group Culture, inhabited the Nile Valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers — spoke Afroasiatic languages.

Claude Rilly (2010, 2016) on the other hand, suggests that the Kerma peoples spoke Nilo-Saharan languages of the Eastern Sudanic branch, possibly ancestral to the later Meroitic language, which he also suggests was Nilo-Saharan. Rilly also criticizes proposals (by Behrens and Bechaus-Gerst) of significant early Afro-Asiatic influence on Nobiin, and considers evidence of substratal influence on Nobiin from an earlier now extinct Eastern Sudanic language to be stronger.

Julien Cooper (2017) also suggests that Nilo-Saharan languages of the Eastern Sudanic branch were spoken by the people of Kerma, as well as those further south along the Nile, to the west, and those of Saï (an island to the north of Kerma), but that Afro-Asiatic (most likely Cushitic) languages were spoken by other peoples in Lower Nubia (such as the Medjay and the C-Group culture) living in Nubian regions north of Saï toward Egypt and those southeast of the Nile in Punt in the Eastern dessert. Based partly on an analysis of the phonology of place names and personal names from the relevant regions preserved in ancient texts, he argues that the terms from "Kush" and "Irem" (ancient names for Kerma and the region south of it respectively) in Egyptian texts display traits typical of Eastern Sudanic languages, while those from further north (in Lower Nubia) and east are more typical of the Afro-Asiatic family, noting: "The Irem-list also provides a similar inventory to Kush, placing this firmly in an Eastern Sudanic zone. These Irem/Kush-lists are distinctive from the Wawat-, Medjay-, Punt-, and Wetenet-lists, which provide sounds typical to Afroasiatic languages."

Cooper (2017, 2020) suggests that an Eastern Sudanic language (perhaps early Meroitic) was spoken at Kerma by at least 1800 BC (the time from which toponymic evidence is available), whose arrival, and that of a new ethno-linguistic group, around that time may perhaps be indicated by a change in placenames for Upper Nubia used in Egyptian execration texts. However, Cooper also proposes that a similar Eastern Sudanic language may have been already spoken in Upper Nubia, both at Kerma and the Saï polity to its north, earlier (by Kerma Moyen, which began around 2050 BC), while north of Saï, in Lower Nubia, Cushitic languages were spoken and much later replaced by Meroitic. It is posited that early Meroitic spread, displacing Eastern Sudanic and Cushitic languages along the Nile."

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