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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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then stop reading their articles fool

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Are they saying here that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians?

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Originally posted by xyyman:


xyyman comment: Seems like even this author did not realize that ONLY 3 mummies were analyzed and published for their autosomes. I tell you man, Europeans can spin. Even this author got faked out! As for the haplogroups the Abusir were mostly related to …you guess it!….Nubians!(Sudanese). [/QB]

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African Journals OnLine (AJOL) is the world’s largest online library of peer-reviewed, African-published scholarly journals.


https://www.ajol.info/index.php

_________________________________________

This is what you should be reading, African lie-free articles

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
How did the OP get his hands on the full text of the article? All I've been able to dig up on Google are abstracts. Which is a shame, because this looks like a cool paper.

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
How did the OP get his hands on the full text of the article? All I've been able to dig up on Google are abstracts. Which is a shame, because this looks like a cool paper.

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answer: illegal entry site
Also note preprint, different title, same authors

You're European right?
But you stay silent

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Are you saying the people who emailed me

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Originally posted by xyyman:
To those who can read the ancient Egyptian text…is this true? ... Was there a difference and adversarial events between Nubians and Egyptians? Some of the old guards on here like Sage? And Wally etc mentioned that there was no difference between Nubians and Egyptians

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
We know Europeans lie and spin.

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then stop reading their articles fool

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Are they saying here that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians?

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If they said that the ruling elite of ancient Egypt were Nubians it must be a lie because we know Europeans lie

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Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Between 5,000 and 3,000 B.C., humans across Africa were migrating to the Nile’s lush banks as the Earth warmed and equatorial jungles transformed into the deserts they are today. “You cannot go 50 kilometers along the Nile River Valley without finding an important site because humans spent thousands of years here in the same place, from prehistoric to modern times,” Vincent Francigny, the director of the French Archeological Unit, tells me in his office in Sudan’s capital, Khartoum. Nearby his office, the White Nile from Uganda and the Blue Nile from Ethiopia unite into one river that flows through Nubia, enters Egypt and exits into the Mediterranean Sea.

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Roughly around 2,000 B.C., archaeologists find the first traces of the Nubian kingdom called Kush.

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Egyptians conquered parts of the Kushite Kingdom for a few hundred years, and around 1,000 B.C., Egyptians appear to have died, left, or mixed thoroughly with the local population. At 800 B.C., Kushite kings, also known as the black pharaohs, took over Egypt for a century — two cobras decorating the pharaohs’ crowns signify the unification of kingdoms. And somewhere around 300 A.D., the Kushite empire began to fade away.

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Reisner died at Giza in Harvard Camp in 1942. In his final years, despite near total blindness, he continued working, dictating manuscripts to a secretary. By the end of his career, he had explored arguably the most famous archaeological site in the world (the Giza Pyramids), discovered thousands of artifacts and hundreds of artistic masterpieces, rewritten the history of Nubia and three millennia of Egypto–Nubian relations, and permanently altered the course of modern archaeology. He is buried in the American cemetery in Mari Girgis, Cairo.

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For thousands of years, many peoples have settled along the Nile River
from the Mediterranean coast to the interior of Africa. As one moves from
the north to the south, one would observe that the physical features of
these Nile dwellers change gradually. The variations are barely noticeable
from one village to the next. But, over longer distances, one can see dif-
ferences in skin color, facial features, and height and hear several different
languages. This is as true today as it was thousands of years ago.

The peoples of Nubia are an indigenous African population. They have
occupied the middle portion of the Nile Valley since at least 6000 B.C. and
likely for much longer. The Greeks and Romans called all the territory
south of Egypt by the Greek name Ethiopia, which meant "Land of the
Burnt Faces." This described its people, who had dark brown or black skin.
Even the name Sudan is an Arabic translation of the Greek name meaning
"(Land of the) Blacks." According to the latest studies, modern-day
Nubians are most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Nubians.

While both Egyptians and Nubians are indigenous African peoples, the
ancient Egyptians represented themselves in their art differently from their
southern neighbors. Egyptian artists used a red-brown paint for the skin
color of Egyptian men, yellow for Egyptian women, and a dark brown or
black for all Nubians. A painting from the tomb chamber of an Egyptian
queen, in figure 8, shows her with black skin color, indicating that she was
Nubian or of Nubian descent.

Characteristic clothing also distinguishes Nubians in Egyptian art. No-
tice, for example, the long, beaded Nubian belt in the painting of a Nubi-
an soldier on his tomb stela (gravestone) in figure 9. Nubians can also be
identified by their hairstyles. For example, figure 1 0 shows a procession of
four different races of mankind. The Nubians have short, curly hairstyles
distinctive from those of the Egyptians. Some Nubian men dyed their hair
red and adorned it with ostrich feathers. This hairstyle is depicted in the
Egyptian tomb paintings in figures 7 and 10.

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Prehistoric Nubia In early prehistoric times, nomadic cattle herders occupied most of
(6000-3100 b.c.) north Africa, including northern Nubia. In southern Nubia, a very different
and highly advanced culture developed, known today as the Khartoum
Mesolithic. Remains of this eight-thousand-year-old culture have been
found near Khartoum, the modern-day capital of the Sudan. It was closely
related to other ancient cultures spread across north and central Africa.

The Khartoum Mesolithic people subsisted primarily by hunting and
fishing. Their pottery, perhaps the oldest known in the world, is sophisti-
cated and advanced. Unlike the early civilizations of Asia and the Near
East, in Nubia the establishment of settlements and the production of pot-
tery seem to have occurred before agriculture began.

The Neolithic Period (5000-3100 B.C.) showed considerable advances
in Nubian civilization. This culture began creating human figurines, slate
palettes for grinding cosmetics, and Black-topped red pottery.

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Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt
Paleolithic Burials

The oldest known skeleton in Ancient Egypt was discovered in a burial site referred to as Taramsa 1, close to the Temple of Hathor at Dendera. The body of an "anatomically modern" child was found which was dated to around 55,000 years ago (Pleistocene Age). The body was seated, with its legs bend to the left, leaning backwards in an east-west orientation. The head was looking up to the east, the left arm resting on the pelvis and the right arm behind the back. Although numerous blades, shards and flakes were also found in the grave, they are not thought to be burial gifts.

Nazlet Khater (an Upper Palaeolithic site near Tahata in Upper Egypt) is the site of the oldest known underground mine in Ancient Egypt. Close to the mine archaeologists discovered two graves tentatively dated to 30,000 – 35,000 BC. One grave was in a very poor state, but in the other the body was clearly placed on its back, knees bent, head tilted to face the west. The left arm rested on the pelvis, the right stretched along the body. A bifacially shaped axe had been carefully placed at the bottom of the grave close to the head.

Qadan burials dating to between 14,000 and 12,000 (late Paleolithic) have been excavated at Gebel Sahaba (near Wadi Halfa in Lower Nubia). Bodies, a large number of which showed signs of violence and many of whom were buried in mass graves, were semi-contracted (where the body is placed in a foetal position) on their left sides with heads facing east. They were interred in pits covered with large sandstone slabs. Near contemporary burials at Wadi Tuskka (north of Abu Simbel) were marked by the placement of cattle skulls.

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In the process of reconstructing the evolution of these societies, a great contribution has been provided by another important group of sites located just north of the Sudanese-Egyptian border, in the Western Desert of Egypt, 100 km west of the II Cataract: the areas of Nabta playa and Kiseiba, thoroughly investigated by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition starting in the 1980s (Wendorf et al. 1980, 1984; Wendorf and Associates 2001). During the Early-Middle Holocene, these areas gravitated toward the Khartoum Variant cultural sphere (Gatto 2002, 2006; Usai 2004, 2005, 2008a), and they more or less correspond to the northernmost zone of the spread of the pottery-bearing hunter-gatherer-fishers of the Nile valley. Beyond this border a different situation has been described (Vermeersch 1978; Vermeersch et al. 2015).

Currently, the beginning of the Mesolithic can be pushed back to ~9000 BC (Honegger 2012, 2013), and these oldest phases have been recognized at Nabta/Kiseiba and Kerma areas. Meanwhile, the oldest phase recorded in central Sudan, at Al Khiday, dates to about ~7000 BC. Along the Nile stretch separating these two regions, sites where similar ancient dates have been recorded are located at the Nile-Atbara confluence (Haaland and Magi 1995) and north of Khartoum, at Sarourab (Khabir 1987). Unfortunately, these ancient dates are not associated with discrete archaeological deposits or contexts (Salvatori 2012; Usai 2014).

The sites of the Kerma area, Al Khiday and Nabta/Kiseiba, bear strong similarities in settlement structure and organization. Moreover, and more relevant, the establishment of a village with organized internal spaces coincides chronologically to roughly 7000 BC. At Nabta Playa and Al Khiday the village shows a similar plan with semisubterranean huts and pits. At Al Khiday, however, the functional areas with pits seem more complex, and pits with different fills corresponding to different functions are located in separate zones. At Al Khiday 2 most pits were filled with ash or mixed ash-sand deposits with burned stones and relevant amount of archaeological material; more rarely these pits have darker sandy-clay deposits and are rich in articulated faunal remains. Conversely, the last pit typology is very common at Al Khiday 2B, where the fill becomes more clayish and faunal remains in anatomical connections are the most common find. These numerous features, presently under analytical study for chemical, mineral, and microbotanical content tracing, suggest that the group occupied the area almost continuously. Some break in this continuity may have caused the physical and mnemonic destruction of spatial organization, and this may have caused the observed stratigraphic situation, with pits cutting each other. A small chronological difference could be established by pottery analysis, a difference that, unfortunately, cannot as easily be established with a wide series of radiocarbon dates based on terrestrial shells, mainly of the Pila species.

This evidence seems to indicate a more sedentary lifestyle in comparison with the earliest occupation phase. The more ancient levels recorded at Al Khiday are characterized by more ephemeral living structures, with post-holes and fireplaces in low depressions. A similar situation is recorded at Nabta/Kiseiba, while for the Kerma region it is not yet possible to measure any such change.

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Now British Museum scientists are planning to learn more about the victims themselves – everything from gender to disease and from diet to age at death. The discovery of dozens of previously undetected arrow impact marks and flint arrow fragments suggests that the majority of the individuals – men, women and children – in the Jebel Sahaba cemetery were killed by enemy archers, and then buried by their own people. What’s more, the new research demonstrates that the attacks – in effect a prolonged low-level war – took place over many months or years.

Parallel research over recent years has also been shedding new light as to who, in ethnic and racial terms, these victims were.

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Work carried out at Liverpool John Moores University, the University of Alaska and New Orleans’ Tulane University indicates that they were part of the general sub-Saharan originating population – the ancestors of modern Black Africans.

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The identity of their killers is however less easy to determine. But it is conceivable that they were people from a totally different racial and ethnic group – part of a North African/ Levantine/European people who lived around much of the Mediterranean Basin.

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The two groups – although both part of our species, Homo sapiens – would have looked quite different from each other and were also almost certainly different culturally and linguistically. The sub-Saharan originating group had long limbs, relatively short torsos and projecting upper and lower jaws along with rounded foreheads and broad noses, while the North African/Levantine/European originating group had shorter limbs, longer torsos and flatter faces. Both groups were very muscular and strongly built.

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Certainly the northern Sudan area was a major ethnic interface between these two different groups at around this period. Indeed the remains of the North African/Levantine/European originating population group has even been found 200 miles south of Jebel Sahaba, thus suggesting that the arrow victims were slaughtered in an area where both populations operated.

What’s more, the period in which they perished so violently was one of huge competition for resources – for they appear to have been killed during a severe climatic downturn in which many water sources dried up, especially in summer time.

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Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
Doug M. : "And this is why they created "ancient Nubia" "

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Maybe you are correct, I don't know.

I do have a serious enquiry:

Between Nubia and Libya lies Egypt.

I don't know if Egypt was ever called

Jyu.bia or Jyu.mbdia or Llu.bdia

aE.gyp(t)ia (Hellene Greek)

Judea Ha-Yudia -> Yahudi ? (in Hebrew)

KMT (in Anc. Egyptian per Egyptologists))

"(ae)jyumbdia" is how I think it was spoken, with dialect variances eg. jubia/llubya/Ljublya {compare to Ljubljana, Slovenia).

Does anyone know if that fits any known reference to 'Egypt'?

It would IMO match Gebt, Aegiptos, KeMeT but not Mizraim.

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Today, ‘Nubia’ is generally used to refer to the area (both in the past and present) in Northeast Africa where Nubian languages are currently spoken (Shinnie 1996), the region from just north of the 1 st Cataract of the Nile in Egypt to south of the 3 rd Cataract in Sudan. However, recent archaeological research has located Nubian sites associated with the Kerma culture in the 4 th and 5 th Cataract areas as well (Smith & Herbst 2008; Welsby 2007). Some researchers use ‘Nubia’ simply as a geographic name, rather than as an indication of ethnicity or language (Bianchi 2004; Edwards 2004; O’Connor 1993). Although people have lived in this region as far back as 13,000 BC, the word ‘Nubian’ in reference to an area’s name does not appear until the 3 rd century BC (O’Connor 1993 citing Wenig 1980). In Christian times (AD 540-1500), inhabitants of the region spoke Nubian languages, though it is thought that the language can be traced back as far as the Egyptian Middle Kingdom (2050-1650 BC; Behrens 1981; O’Connor 1993; Rilly 2007).

The etymology of the word ‘Nubia’ is disputed (O’Connor 1993). Popular opinion links it to the ancient Egyptian noun, ‘ nebu ’, meaning gold (Bianchi 2004), given that Nubia was the source for gold in ancient Egypt (Adams 1977). Bronze Age Egyptians called Nubians, Nehasyu, referring to the nomads of the region, riverine peoples, and those living by the Red Sea Coast (O’Connor 1993). It is also proposed that the term derives from a Nuba Hills word for slave (Th ewall & Schadeberg 1983). Although it was originally suggested that the place, Yam, in Egyptian texts referred to Nubia, archaeologists have recently discovered an inscrip- tion that locates it further west (Clayton et al. 2008). Beginning in the Middle Kingdom, Egyptian texts call this area Kush, although the term was originally applied to Upper Nubia only. By the 1 st millennium BC, Kush was the preferred name for all of Nubia in Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, and Hebrew languages (O’Connor 1993).

Biased perspectives on Nile Valley populations

Scholars traditionally viewed Nubia from an Egyptian viewpoint wherein Nubia is eclipsed by the well-known history of Egypt and is seen as marginal and controlled by Egypt, a perspec-tive that underestimates Nubia as an active player in regional politics (Adams 1977; Hafsaas- Tsakos 2009; Smith 2003). The portrayal of ancient Nubians by contemporary Egyptians in texts and artistic representations supported these ideas; Nubians were often depicted as simple people living in modestly built villages (O’Connor 1993). When Nubian archaeological sites began to be excavated in the late 19 th and early 20 th centuries, many of the initial interpreta- tions were colored by racist views common during that time (Bernal 1987). Reisner (1923a) originally attributed the grand architecture and material remains uncovered at Kerma, as well as at A-Group sites, to Egyptians (Török 2009), hypothesizing that local ‘black’ culture could not have been responsible for the scale and grandeur of the habitation sites, deff ufas (large mud brick buildings) and tumulus cemeteries. He suggested that the buildings were actually Egyptian trading posts and forts, the headquarters of Egyptian governors who were buried in the cemeteries. Questioned by several researchers (e.g., Batrawi 1946; Hintze 1964; Junker 1921), the Kerman remains were eventually recognized to be entirely Nubian (except for some traded statues). However, the common view of Egyptians as the ‘civilizers’ of Nubians was also maintained in anatomical research (e.g., Smith & Derry 1910a, 1910b), which linked cultural change with the infl ux of new peoples and claimed population replacement as well as cultural decline caused by the infl uence of the ‘negroid’ element. These studies, along with many sources during this period that asserted that Egyptians were white, used primitive and highly subjective methods often relying on selective observations, and found material confi rmation of whatever historical theories they wished to believe (Adams 1977; Carlson & Van Gerven 1979; Diop 1981). Shared by nearly all early students of Nubian history, these biased ideas drastically affected Egyptological views of Nubia (Sherif 1981) and survived long after the destruction of their empirical foundation (Adams 1977).

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Originally posted by xyyman:

A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley – K Godde July 2018

Abstract
The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years, were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance. A principal coordinates analysis and spatial-temporal model were applied to these data. The results reveal temporal and spatial patterning consistent with documented events in Egyptian and Nubian population history. Moreover, the Mesolithic Nubian sample clustered with later Nubian and Egyptian samples, indicating that events prior to the Mesolithic were important in shaping the later genetic patterning of the Nubian population. Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos **maintained **genetic similarity among the populations.

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Old News. P.K. Manansala told us all this years ago! LOL

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
[QB] In my mind, the only true "Nubians" are the speakers of Nubian languages

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Originally posted by Doug M:
George Reisner made up the concept of the ancient "Nubians" and was openly and blatantly racist about distinguishing them from Egyptians. His whole model for "Nubia" was based on "race" and distinguishing "Savage negroes" from "civilized Egyptians". The problem was that there was no monolithic entity in the ancient Nile Valley called "Nubia".

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Question? Recent DNA studies point to Kerma Culture and C group both being North African/Libyan/Egyptian or clustering with Egyptian/NA/Libyan. How does that contradict Reisner? Or does it confirm Reisner's assumption of a small Dynastic race ruling over a large South Sudanese/ "negro" /Sub Saharan population that would later develop into Kush?

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Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yatunde Lisa is trying to re-establish "Nubia" as a valid term

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yatunde Lisa is trying to re-establish "Nubia" as a valid term

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No I am not. What I am asking is what "ethnicity" and or DNA profile or DNA clustering would A group & C group fall into?

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