posted
There's absolutely no reason in the world for Afrikan people to continue to allow a valuable piece of our property to be labeled as part of a continent it is not geologically part of.
The Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and Mesopotamia are only geographically labelled SouthEastAsia due to the primacy of Europeans in writing down their own geographic viewpoint.
Geologically, the above named regions all sit on the Arabian tectonic plate. This plate broke off of the African tectonic plate. The Horn and East Africa east of the Great Rift Valley are also breaking away from the African tectonic plate.
Will that fact lead us far in the future to labelling them a part of Asia too? This is no joke. Search the ancient literature and you'll see the Nile was once the determining point of division between Africa and Asia, such that all west of the Nile was "Libya" while all east of the Nile was Asia.
There's nothing natural or correct in labelling the Arabian tectonic plate as southwest Asia when in fact if anything it is far northeast Africa or the northeast extention of Africa.
Hatred of Arabs and Jews is no more a reason to give away this landmass than is its Greco-Roman misnomering. Yet it is precisely anti-Semitic bias that makes an excuse for otherwise thoughtful Afrikans to disconnect the topic region from the great continent of Africa.
Fig. 1. Africa and Arabia (etc.) viewed from space and from the "Arabic" perspective where south is the prime direction.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Arabian plate lands are a part of Africa. Only political geography can make it Asian.
When speaking of the Arabian plate lands all the land south of Turkey and west of Iran is included. This is all far northeast Africa. The designation middle-east is a political term only.
Think, how could Morocco be in the middle east when it's Maghrib al Aqsa (farthest west)? Why isn't Greece in middle east? Politics not geography is the determinant. Think again, no Asian Muslim countries east of Afghanistan are considered in the middle east.
posted
Think, how could Morocco be in the middle east when it's Maghrib al Aqsa (farthest west)? Why isn't Greece in middle east? Politics not geography is the determinant. Think again, no Asian Muslim countries east of Afghanistan are considered in the middle east.
hmm i thought about that too, why do they include North african countries as the Middle east or south west asia?
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
It's part of a control game so that the popular mind only thinks of Africa, "real Africa," as only that part of the continent free of Semitic influx be it language, religion, or way of life.
It also removes "African taint" from those north Mediterranean civilizations where south Meds, i.e. North Africans, played prominent roles.
Think of Septemius Severus, Vergil, St. Augustine, etc., not to mention the ancient "Libyans" of pre-Greek interaction in Crete and the Peloponnese.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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i know...they seem to want to think of africa and even asia as a homogenous place(s). i believe this ideology falls back on the idea of the true "negriod". I wonder when North africa will be attached to its "mother". I think they equate dark skin and broad nose with pure africans, which isn't true. Black africans can produce lightskined africans..due to natural(not form outside influences) recessive gene(s) form one or both parents being heterozygous. plus the fact that skin color is polygentic, this would increase the likelyhood of this happening..i'm sure not every african's genes are purely dominate...i hope this makes sense...and isn't something i just flew off on the tangent with...i have been on edge today....so i apologize
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: he Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and Mesopotamia are only geographically labelled SouthEastAsia due to the primacy of Europeans in writing down their own geographic viewpoint.
Geologically, the above named regions all sit on the Arabian tectonic plate. This plate broke off of the African tectonic plate.
Yeap; without a doubt.
quote:The Horn and East Africa east of the Great Rift Valley are also breaking away from the African tectonic plate.
Will that fact lead us far in the future to labelling them a part of Asia too? This is no joke. Search the ancient literature and you'll see the Nile was once the determining point of division between Africa and Asia, such that all west of the Nile was "Libya" while all east of the Nile was Asia.
Who knows, given the richness of human ancestry in East sub-Saharan Africa, but Egypt and Sudan, I believe, will remain attached to the mainland continent, should the said break away occur.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by tk101: Think, how could Morocco be in the middle east when it's Maghrib al Aqsa (farthest west)? Why isn't Greece in middle east?..
Are you aware that some of Greek ancestry is "Middle Eastern" (Anatolian) as well as African?!
quote:..Politics not geography is the determinant. Think again, no Asian Muslim countries east of Afghanistan are considered in the middle east.
Are you aware that Tibet was once proclaimed part of the "Middle East"?!
quote:hmm i thought about that too, why do they include North african countries as the Middle east or south west asia?
Why ask questions to which you already know the answer?-- because they do not want to associate North Africa with the greater "Sub-Saharan" i.e. BLACK Africa.
quote:i know...they seem to want to think of africa and even asia as a homogenous place(s). i believe this ideology falls back on the idea of the true "negriod". I wonder when North africa will be attached to its "mother". I think they equate dark skin and broad nose with pure africans, which isn't true. Black africans can produce lightskined africans..due to natural(not form outside influences) recessive gene(s) form one or both parents being heterozygous. plus the fact that skin color is polygentic, this would increase the likelyhood of this happening..i'm sure not every african's genes are purely dominate...i hope this makes sense...
The factors that influence skin color have been discussed in this forum before (several times actually), although I don't have the time to find it in the archives.
Usually, the farther away one is from the equator, the lighter the skin color. The Khoisan peoples of Southern Africa live below the Tropic of Capricorn and are therefore light in color relative to equatorial Africans. The similar can be said about some groups who live north of the Tropic of Cancer, but not necessarily all.
You must also keep in mind that many North Africans today are mixed with foreign populations be it Arab or European. Which makes it more convenient for people to say that North Africans are somehow a different 'race' than "Sub-Saharans".
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Who knows, given the richness of human ancestry in East sub-Saharan Africa, but Egypt and Sudan, I believe, will remain attached to the mainland continent, should the said break away occur.
I thought this has happened already, especially in the case of Sudan? Many of the peoples in the north, especially among the elite don't consider themselves as 'black' but rather as "green" Arabs. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I am not saying that North Africa isn't Africa: it surely is. I am probably more zealous for that than most other ZEALOTS on this board....lol. Yet, CULTURALLY speaking, I don't mind my mentor's term, which again is called, "SouthWest Asia and North Africa", i.e. S.W.A.N.A. This doesn't mean that North Africa isn't part of Africa, it just connects a certain part of the world together which we normally call the "Middle East", understand? Yet I understand the issue, and if the term tried to seperate Africa from Africa(get it, the word play....lol), then I would/will drop the term. But I don't think that is the issue, therefore I will stick with the term. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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Yet, CULTURALLY speaking, I don't mind my mentor's term, which again is called, "SouthWest Asia and North Africa", i.e. S.W.A.N.A. This doesn't mean that North Africa isn't part of Africa, it just connects a certain part of the world together which we normally call the "Middle East", understand? Yet I understand the issue, and if the term tried to seperate Africa from Africa(get it, the word play....lol), then I would/will drop the term. But I don't think that is the issue, therefore I will stick with the term. Salaam
..."Middle East" is a bankrupt Eurocentric geopolitical construct. If the term doesn't in effect attempt to partition the African continent, then pray tell what it does?
Geographically, it makes no sense; "Middle East" is "middle" and "east" of what at the same time?
"Culturally speaking", what connects the "Middle East", and hence, the need to "culturally" connect "S.W.A.N.A" while separating the North African countries therein from mainland Africa; perhaps it has to do with Islam and Arabic language?
These are the "issues" that come up with the term. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
NORTH Africa, North East Africa, w/e. Is all part of Africa. NOT THE MIDDLE EAST... even if it consists of a migration of non african population at current day does not take it out of Africa. The region is part of the african continent since the breaking of the tectonic plates. SO CALLED MIDDLE EAST is a term to seperate N africa from Africa.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I as well think it's nonsense to consider landmasses that have broken away from Africa to be "sterilized" of African roots when in addition European populations come to chacterize the citizenry of those lands. When we go back far enough, not even that far, those lands were dwelled in by people who were and looked African. It's not news to say Steppe populations aka whites and today's Semites entered African lands and took on that culture, language, religion, and often even the tribal names. So, we, as you point out, have the anomaly, that lands that were once African are now no longer considered so. Politically the present "former" African lands and tomorrow's future once-African lands may be called other than an African rose but intellectually, I agree they should always remain our African rose. Thanks for bringing the point up.
Paul Marc Washington
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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From a technical standpoint northeast Africa is obviously part of Africa but realistically it (especially Egypt) is a part of southwest Asia.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:From a technical standpoint northeast Africa is obviously part of Africa but realistically it (especially Egypt) is a part of southwest Asia.
Folks, don't take the bait. He's just looking for attention. We've been over this with Hore a million times. He'll never provide evidence, in support of his contention, or answer questions posed directly to him.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
And of course a much stronger case could be made for Texas, Arizona and New Mexico being realistically part of Mexico and Central America than technically being part of America. LOL!
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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It was God Kofi Osei of Ghana who taught me that the Arabian tectonic plate lands are our African real estate and that we are fools to allow anyone to say otherwise and weaklings not to correct them when they do.
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: I as well think it's nonsense to consider landmasses that have broken away from Africa to be "sterilized" of African roots ...
... those lands were dwelled in by people who were and looked African. It's not news to say Steppe populations, aka whites and today's Semites, entered African lands and took on that culture, language, religion, and often even the tribal names. So, we, as you point out, have the anomaly, that lands that were once African are now no longer considered so.
Politically the present "former" African lands, and tomorrow's future once-African lands, may be called other than an African rose but intellectually, I agree they should always remain our African rose.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Egypt is the headquarters of the arab league, an association that is CENTERED in the middle east. their economic and foreign policy have much more orientation toward the near east than Africa. Whatever you think they have been in the past they are a near eastern country today.
"Near East Foundation (NEF) is best known in Egypt for its support of talented young people working in development-related fields. A generation of Egyptian professionals traces its inspiration to the 1970s and 80s when NEF began promoting committed, professional practices at both institutional and community levels. These activities culminated in 1990 with the creation of NEF's Cairo-based Center for Development Services (CDS), the Foundation's training and technical assistance arm."
Somebody forgot to tell the folks at the NEF that Egypt wasn't near eastern.
Opps, yet another group that wasn't told Egypt was near eastern;
The History of the Ancient Near East
Electronic Compendium
ANCIENT ISRAEL IRAQ EGYPT TURKEY IRAN SYRIA LEBANON JORDAN ARABIA CYPRUS AND BAHRAIN
12/08/2006 -- Supreme HeadQuarters Allied Near East Command (SHANEC) -- General Directive #41 -- TeleType Message -- Radiocarbon or Carbon-14 Dating and its Chronolgy -- Calibration -- Relevance ...
Addendum: RadioCarbon or Carbon-14 Dating and its Chronolgy -- Calibration -- Relevance
There are approximately 600 HTML pages cached in both the Google and Yahoo directories for this website using site:ancientneareast.tripod.com as of 08/20/2006
Search The History of the Ancient Near East
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Supercar, anytime someone starts using terms like Eurocentric you know you are dealing with a radical and radicals are never in the mainstream. i think radicals on all sides serve a person but we have to remember that they almost always overstate.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Arrow, I don’t time for your clown antics, but I can spare some time for the answers to the following…
Middle East" is a bankrupt Eurocentric geopolitical construct. ..
Geographically, it makes no sense; "Middle East" is "middle" and "east" of what at the same time?
…And from the aforementioned link:
quote:Horemheb:
...east- asia....those areas east of Europe and Med.
Test #1: East-Asia, right?
Show me a simple map of continental Asia, which suggests the inclusion of mainland Egypt.
quote:Horemheb: Near- the part of the east that is closest to Europe and med.
Making Europe 'the' center, i.e., Eurocentric. Anyway...
Test #2: Considering that Iceland is on the western limit of Europe, and that Russia is regarded as part of Europe, where does the east begin and end, with respect to Europe, that is, if we are going to speak in geographic terms as you just did?
Remember, Africa is right below Europe, and at that, not to its west.
quote:Horemheb: Now, more basic information- Africa is not in the near east, but Egypt is, always has been and always will be.
Test #3: How does this square with Egypt being in Africa? If this isn't so, feel free to provide a basic map of continental Africa, which suggests that mainland Egypt isn't part of it.
^Get busy with answers, as per layout of the questions, not missing a single one of them.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
well, I agree with you that the term 'middle east' is a little misleading and thus 'near east' is probably a better term in terms of accuracy. i think I agreed that Egypt was part of Africa from a geography point of view. Geopolictially and culturaly it is part of the arab near east.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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well, I agree with you that the term 'middle east' is a little misleading and thus 'near east' is probably a better term in terms of accuracy.
"Near East" is just as vague a term, and Eurocentric.
quote:Arrow: i think I agreed that Egypt was part of Africa from a geography point of view.
It still is, and from a political standpoint too, which leaves you with what other justification than the "Middle East" or the "Near East" being an imperialistic "Western European" Eurocentric geopolitical construct?
quote:Arrow:
Geopolictially
...which you'll soon demonstrate by answering my questions above?!
quote:Arrow:
and culturaly it is part of the arab near east.
What is this culture; speaking arabic and being a muslim? Layout the format of this homogenous "Middle Eastern" culture, that needs to be separated from the already diverse cultures of the African continent.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Super car, The arab/Muslim countries in the middle east all have their own culture but are also part of a larger culture. They speak the same language, they have the same religion etc. Egypt is much much closer to those near east nations than it is to sub Saharan Africa. If I did a man on the street 99% of the respondents would say Egypt was an arab/muslim mideast nation and they would be correct.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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here are some facts. Lets not let the FACTS stand in our way.
Egypt » General Information Location Middle East Time GMT + 2 (GMT + 3 from last Friday in April to last Thursday in September). Area 1,002,000 sq km (386,874 sq miles). Population 74.9 million (UN, 2005). Population Density 74.8 per sq km. Capital Cairo (El Qahira). Population: 16.7 million (2005 estimate). Geography Egypt is bordered to the north by the Mediterranean, to the south by Sudan, to the west by Libya, and to the east by the Red Sea and Israel. The River Nile divides the country unevenly in two, while the Suez Canal provides a third division with the Sinai Peninsula. Beyond the highly cultivated Nile Valley and Delta, a lush green tadpole of land that holds more than 90 per cent of the population, the landscape is mainly flat desert, devoid of vegetation apart from the few oases that have persisted in the once fertile depressions of the Western Desert. Narrow strips are inhabited on the Mediterranean coast and on the African Red Sea coast. The coast south of Suez has fine beaches and the coral reefs just offshore attract many divers. The High Dam at Aswan now controls the annual floods that once put much of the Nile Valley under water; it also provides electricity. Government Republic. Head of State: President Muhammad Hosni Mubarak since 1981. Head of Government: Ahmed Nazif since 2004. Recent history: Hosni Mubarak is Egypt's longest-serving ruler since Muhammad Ali in the early 19th century and one of the longest-serving leaders in the Arab world. President Mubarak was re-elected on 7 September 2005 for his fifth successive term. On 25 May 2005, a constitutional amendment was passed to allow for free and direct Presidential elections to be contested by multiple candidates following pressure form the US and domestic political groups. In previous elections, Egyptians voted yes or no for a single candidate appointed by Parliament. The only opposition organisation which has broad public support, the Muslim Brotherhood, is outlawed and could not field a candidate. Mr Mubarak succeeded Anwar Sadat, who was assassinated in 1981. He is a great survivor, having escaped no fewer than six assassination attempts. The President appoints the Prime Minister. Ahmed Nazif has occupied this post since July 2004. Elections to the 454-member Majlis al-Sha’abare (People's Assembly ) are held every five years. The first stage of a three-stage election took place on 9 November 2005. Language Arabic is the official language. English and French are widely spoken. Religion According to the 1986 census, over 94 per cent of the population follows Islam; the majority of the rest is Christian. All types of Christianity are represented, especially the Coptic Christian Church. There is also a small Jewish minority. Electricity Most areas 220 volts AC, 50Hz. Certain rural parts still use 110 to 380 volts AC. SOCIAL CONVENTIONS Islam is the dominant influence and many traditional customs and beliefs are tied up with religion. The people are generally courteous and hospitable and expect similar respect from visitors. Shaking hands will suffice as a greeting. Because Egypt is a Muslim country, dress should be conservative and women should not wear revealing clothes, particularly when in religious buildings and in towns (although the Western style of dress is accepted in modern nightclubs, restaurants, hotels and bars in Cairo, Alexandria and other tourist destinations). Official or social functions and smart restaurants usually require more formal wear. Smoking is very common. Photography: Tourists will have to pay a fee to take photographs inside pyramids, tombs and museums.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Northern Africa, bordering the Mediterranean Sea, between Libya and the Gaza Strip, and the Red Sea north of Sudan, and includes the Asian Sinai Peninsula Map references: Africa.
Occupying the northeast corner of the African continent, Egypt is bisected by the highly fertile Nile valley, where most economic activity takes place.
quote:Super car, The arab/Muslim countries in the middle east all have their own culture but are also part of a larger culture. They speak the same language, they have the same religion etc. Egypt is much much closer to those near east nations than it is to sub Saharan Africa. If I did a man on the street 99% of the respondents would say Egypt was an arab/muslim mideast nation and they would be correct
Actually, Egypt is not really a Arab nor a ''Middle Eastern'' country. Egypt only became geopolitically alinged with so-called Arab countries around 1952 under the banner of Pan-Arabism.
One thing you seem to confuse,like most Westeners, is religion with ethnicity connecting Arabs with Islam. You actually have Islamic nations in many sub-Saharan countries and even nations like Indonesia which have no Arabic speaking populations. You also forget Egypt is about %10 or more Christian.
Regardless of the language and religion praticed, the rural Egyptians culturally have more in common with sub-Saharans than Saudi Arabians. I could point out the similarities but I really don't have much time to waste on this board.
Using the perceptions of both Westeners is nothing more than appeal to popularity. Because 99% of people believe something does not make it a fact.
The term "near-eastern'' is another made up geo-political term that refers to former provinces of the Ottoman empire. Many people in Near-eastern studies also include Sudan in this geographical location. Would you agree that Sudan is also Near eastern or is this just Egypt?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Actually, Egypt is not really a Arab nor a ''Middle Eastern'' country. Egypt only became geopolitically alinged with so-called Arab countries around 1952 under the banner of Pan-Arabism
It's important to remember that Pan-Arabism's approach to Egypt was to rename the country The United Arab Republic.
Egypt was specifically *removed* from the Name of the country in 1958.
Arabs wanted what all imperialist want - to make eternal its conquests via permanent obliteration of the indigenous past.
International Arabism wanted nothing to do with Kemet [Egypt], just as the their modern Sudanese deciples want nothing to do with Nubia, other than to wipe it from history.
What changed the Arab attitude towards Kemet was their inferiority complex visa Europe, and here is how.....
Europeans created "Egyptomania".
Egyptomania is a kind of historical necrophilia in which one lusts quite superfically after 'dead' civilisations.
At the same time, Europeans had only contempt for Arab culture.
So, in the last couple decades the Arab league has decided that Arabs can be elevated by association with the Kemetic past.
Hence the fantasy is concocted that somehow Arabs had something to do with ancient Kemet and are the rightful inheritors of its legacy.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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They speak the same language, they have the same religion etc.
I know that Ausar and others have appropriately addressed your dissemination of crack-induced "reality", but you haven't laid out the format of the homogenous "Middle Eastern" culture as you were requested to do. What does "etc" entail?
quote:Arrow:
Egypt is much much closer to those near east nations than it is to sub Saharan Africa.
Greece, Italy and Spain, Europe's centers of ancient "civilizations" are much closer to Africa than they are to northernmost European countries, which from your unique and bizarre mode of thinking, makes them "African" I guess?Whereas Egypt is "in" Africa; How much closer to the African continent can Egypt get, when it is on the continent?...consider the answer to this, a homework assignment for you Hore, 'due' to be your very first post, the next time you decide to post here.
As for the "near East", you didn't answer the request made of you earlier; the questions were too hard for you?
quote:Arrow:
If I did a man on the street
I did not know that you were gay.
quote:Arrow:
of the respondents would say Egypt was an arab/muslim mideast nation and they would be correct.
...how many of these "hypothetical" respondents of your imagination, will be able to answer the questions about "middle east" or "near east", that you were not able to? However, if I surveyed geneticists, 100% of them would likely acknowledge tropical African ancestry in Southern Europeans, particularly the Greeks, and guess what: they would be correct. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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^Indeed; one can make a better arguement that Ancient Greek culture was "near Eastern" than any on the African continent, given that it borrowed heavily from "SW Asia" and Africa, than can be said of the Nile Valley borrowing from "SW Asia". Culture flowed both directly and indirectly from the Nile Valley to southern Europe via Greece and "SW Asia". Another notable flow of culture [again both African and "SW Asian" derived] from the African continent, was in the "Middle Ages" via the Iberian peninsula, sparking the so-called Eurocentric notion of "renaissance".
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Quite so, Europe inherits agriculture, cattle domestication, literacy and mathamatics from SouthWest Asia and Africa, whereas Africans invented all of the above.
The reason for the existence of reified [artificial] constructs like 'near east' is to allow Europe to lay essentially phony claim to non European culture and innovation.
Europe in ancient history is the emperor with no clothes.
To realise this we must strip it of all it's puffery meant to distract from the empty reality - Near East, Middle East, Mediterranean, Caucasoids.....all exist to puff up Europe.
Restrict Europe to....Europe, and you have and honest picture of simple hunter gatherer cultures, that accomplished precious little of note until they were civilised by Africans and SouthWest Asians who invaded the European "zone of mixture" aka - Greece and Rome.
It was these mixed Europeans who later civilised the North Europeans, so long isolated from African and Asian centers of civilisation.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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To realise this we must strip it of all it's puffery meant to distract from the empty reality - Near East, Middle East, Mediterranean, Caucasoids.....all exist to puff up Europe.
...and part & parcel of European imperialism; explains Arrow/Hore's need to desperately "save" these often 'ambiguous' and 'fluid' lifeline terms of Eurocentric imperialism, not to mention the need to deny the undeniable...i.e., Eurocentrism. So yes, I agree, this "lifeline" has to be cut off!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: ^Indeed; one can make a better arguement that Ancient Greek culture was "near Eastern" than any on the African continent, given that it borrowed heavily from "SW Asia" and Africa, than can be said of the Nile Valley borrowing from "SW Asia". Culture flowed both directly and indirectly from the Nile Valley to southern Europe via Greece and "SW Asia". Another notable flow of culture [again both African and "SW Asian" derived] from the African continent, was in the "Middle Ages" via the Iberian peninsula, sparking the so-called Eurocentric notion of "renaissance".
Exactly, how can you have a re-naissance without the naissance in the first place? They act as if knowledge was developed IN mainland Europe already, was lost and then came back. The fact is it was NEVER there in the first place. It is funny how European history tries to focus on Europe as the center of human achievement and knowledge. But notice, in 1492 they always say that everyone thought the world was flat..... everyone like WHO? The Europeans? Everyone beyond Europe did not think that and therefore it makes the whole idea of Europe "discovering" a world outside its boundaries a TELLING sign of BACKWARDNESS. But not in their textbooks. Them thinking the world was flat becomes not a sign of IGNORANCE, but somehow a statement of so-called current thinking, but all of that is false. It is only a statement of the European's desire to cast world history in terms of a focus on Europe and NOT any TRUE desire to focus on the fact that Europe up to that point was a MINOR player an UNKNOWN in terms of WORLD civlization. No wonder they didnt know about what was outside their shores. Then they try and act as if EVERYONE ELSE was backward, but it REALLY was THEY who were BACKWARDS up to that point. They try to convince us that CIVILIZATION up to that point was isolated and that people didnt travel and learn before them. Actually it was THEY who were isolated and didnt travel and learn before that. But hey, why not just flip a script and turn everything upside down and put yourself on top? But to hear them tell it, nobody did anything of signifigance until THEY came along.
posted
This is all poppycock. I'm not trying to save anything. There is nothing to save. Ancient greek culture was developed in Greece as a result of the invasion by Europeans from the north. Greek scholars all say that it was almost all home grown with minimal input from other sources although nobody lives in a vacum and obviously there were some. Actually Doug, Europe is the center of human progress. Everything of any importance in the second and third world was either brought by the British Empire or American business. When you noted that European knowledge disappeared and then came back to Europe you were exactly correct. From an emotional standpoint you may not like that position, just as emotionally you do not like the fact that Egypt is a near eastern nation but thats the way it is.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Note that Alexander of the Near East (Macedonia) didn't see much of worth in that nameless morass up north and west to conquer but headed further east where the rest of culture was and a way down south where culture, well, it all began and where ultimately he laid his claim to Dhul Qar*nein fame in deity with the oracle of the original Two Horned one, the Ram Ammon.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Quite so, Europe inherits * agriculture, * cattle domestication, * literacy * and mathamatics from SouthWest Asia and Africa, whereas Africans invented all of the above.
posted
Problem with rasol's comment in the above post is that he dogmatically refuses to prove any of it. Nothing important to the modern world came out of africa except cheap labor and natural resources. Thats not a diss , its just a fact. Last year President Bush went to London to meet with PM Blair to try to find ways of keeping Africa from total economic and demographic collapse.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Simon Says: anachronisms will save the day; twist the present into the past is the game I'll play.
Simon Says: Ignore Nigerian refugee camp alumnus Emeagwali the most important impacter of the modern world's computer science engineering and technology.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Takruri is correct in that many of the things he mentions started in northeast Africans but were developed by Egyptians, not Africans. They were also developed at a VERY ELEMENTARY level until the Greeks refined them. Chadwick's studies of Greek language point out clearly how limited language was before the Greeks found need and had the ability to expand its usage. Greece was the spark that changed the world, the rest of it was not much more than a side show. The dexterity of Greek thought simply has no rival in the ancient world.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Every column a Greek ever reared was modelled after a much more massive one designed, cut, and erected by Africans in Africa. With this and other African (northeast and far northeast) knowledge Greece sparked a world of change for what later would be Europe but then was simply a savage Barbaria.
The only "craft" imported from Greece by Africa was material philosophy craftiness detached from morality and religion as implemented by that one ancient Sudanese ruler who executed his priests when they obligated him to the customary royal suicide/regicide (for the health of the nation).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I do agree with you that the Greeks developed their massive architecture based on Egyptian grids. That said, they rapidly changed even their architecture and put a unique Greek stamp on it with the help of the advances they made in math.
In the ancient world there is the Greeks and then everyone else.
I find it interesting that you try to divide europeans by region. that European civilization developed in the south of Europe makes it no less European, its the same people.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Greco-Romans knew no entity Europe, save the Levantine princess Europa, and eschewed any kind of relationship with the barbarians across the mountains to their north yet reflected favorably on the "blameless Aethiopians" attributing the very birth of civilization to them and claiming partial descent from various Africans.
Why even the Frenchman Count Constantin Francois de Volney during the heyday of American slavery was well aware:
Footnote 5. In the new Encyclopedia 3rd vol. Antiquities, is published a memoir, respecting the chronology of the twelve ages anterior to the passing of Xerxes into Greece, in which I conceive myself to have proved that Upper Egypt formerly composed a distinct kingdom, known to the Hebrews by the name of Kous, and to which the appellation of Ethiopia was specially given. This kingdom preserved its independence to the time of Psammeticus; at which period, being united to the Lower Egypt, it lost its name of Ethiopia, which thenceforth was bestowed upon the nations of Nubia, and upon the different tribes of blacks, including Thebes, their metropolis.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Greco-Romans considered anyone who was not Greek or Romans to be barbarians. Doubtless they did not fully realize that the barbarians to the north were in reality their ancestors.
Volney may have been "well aware" but we have much more knowledge today and understand that the greeks developed Math, drama, political thought, science, military tactics etc to a level unknown in the rest of the ancient world. They would have been unaware of MOST of the development of civilization up to there time.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The Greco-Romans considered anyone who was not Greek or Romans to be barbarians.
However the origin of the term Barbarian is quite specific.
It refers the harsh sounds of Germanic languages which to the Greek ear had a 'bar/bar, ber ber' sound.
The Greeks referred to these North European languages as 'babbling'.
All the terms such as babbling, barbarian, the name Barbara, etc. come from this Greek reference to Northern European people - the true barbarians.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Doesn't matter rasol. Why do the northern europeans even come into the conversation? The only import they had on Greek civilization would have been a common origin. greek thought developed in Greece, not Germany.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Amazing and enlightening that the Meds would forget their ancestry and invent partial African ancestry. Sounds like more SimonSezese gobbledeekook to me.
And while the Greeks indeed did mean nothing more than nonGreek speaker by their word barbaroi, the people to their north were barbarian in our sense of the word: uncouth, uncivilized, cultureless lout. They didn't see Persians, Aethiopians, etc., in that light.
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The Greco-Romans considered anyone who was not Greek or Romans to be barbarians. Doubtless they did not fully realize that the barbarians to the north were in reality their ancestors.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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They attributed the "development of civilization" to Aethiopians, Egyptians, and Levantines. Just peruse any of the classic Greco-Latin historians and geographers. You know, the classic authors you always brey so loudly about, the ones you in fact have never ever read for yourself or have the slightest idea of their content.
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99:
They would have been unaware of MOST of the development of civilization up to there time.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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