posted
I'm trying to locate translations of Miraj so as to avoid assumptions from secondary sources like I did earlier.
You are correct. Islam was Baba's primary criteria. He lists by ethnicity which Sudan can be enslaved.
I find Baba's full name sometimes has es~Sudane and sometimes not. This makes me wonder if that's due to bias of modern recorders or that Baba began to use it after a certain year in his life. If the latter is true could it have been after taken to Morocco?
It was then he wrote Miraj. Did he take on es~Sudane to emphasize his point of geographic origin and colour not determining potential slave status or did he use it while still at Timbuktu well before the war with Maroc?
I would have to scour Baba's list of enslaveable "tribes" to answer if reds are among them. I need to read Miraj for his views on orthodoxy as a criteria to enslave born Muslims.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: ... some Africans for sure thought of some other Africans as fit for menial slavery.
I think the oldest record of this is Herodotus' who reported Garamantes slave hunting Rock Burrower Ethiopians.
The latest one would be Ahmed Baba's treatise on which "tribes" were fair game for slave hunters versus which who should not be enslaved. Colour was one of his criteria.
This is something we have to face and own up to.
Hey Altakuri. I'm only slightly familiar with the Treatise of Ahmad Baba and have only read secondary sources and debates concerning his intent (mostly from Hunwick and his colleagues). Could Ahmad Baba's opinion on slavery instead not be connected to one's status in Islam? In other words, can color truly be considered a criteria if Ahmad Baba called himself 'es Sudane' or if in the absence of color designations, Muslims in general were never to be enslaved as were the pagan ethnic groups mentioned? Did Ahmad Baba know of any ethnic 'reds' whose population was not predominantly of Muslim orthodoxy?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ahmad Bābā “The Ladder of Ascent Towards Grasping the Law Concerning Transported Blacks.”.” The legal opinions of Ahmad Bābā both reflected and helped to shape the attitudes of Muslim West Africans on the legitimacy of enslavement and the permissibility of trading in slaves. In his treatise, Ahmad Bābā noted „that whoever now comes to you from the group called Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] – all of these are unbelievers, remaining in their unbelief until now‟, and hence their enslavement was legitimate. In one of his replies that elaborated on his treatise, Ahmad Bābā 48 identified those people whom he thought were undisputedly Muslims and those he considered non-Muslims, many of whom also had some Muslims resident among them. His list of Muslims included numerous, perhaps most, of the Mande patronymic clans, and hence his conception of ethnicity is also worthy of commentary. While many of the terms that he used have not yet been identified, a few ethnic labels were also used in the Americas, thereby suggesting a link between the theoretical discussion within West Africa and the enslaved population in the Americas. The ethnic terms which were common included „Bambara‟, „Yoruba‟, „Mandinke‟, „Hausa‟, „Fulbe/Fulani‟ and others as well, which were clearly carried over into the nomenclature of the transatlantic trade.yPosts: 41 | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Although this is much later than Baba's trestise it shows how early ideas like his and the doctrine of Islam helped to shape the role of the Slave Trade and slavery in the Eyes of Africans who profited off the trade.
In 1807, Britain declared all slave trading illegal. The king of Bonny (in what is now the Nigerian delta) was dismayed at the conclusion of the practice.
"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself." ^^^^^ African's(Not all) saw the trade as within the teachings of the holy books, and the religions at the time. Slavery was still accepted in both Christianity and Islam.
As a matter of fact it was the enlightenment ideas not Christianity itself that questioned the slave trade and slavery as an instituion, added with the emergence of Industry.
However the slave trade was destablizing African Kingdoms.
From the King of the Kongo, King Affonso.
"Sir, there is in our kingdom, a great obstacle to God. Many of our subjects crave the Portuguese merchandise which your people bring to our kingdom so keenly. In order to satisfy their crazy appetite they snatch our free subjects, or people who have been freed.
They even take noblemen and the sons of noblemen, even our kinsmen. They sell them to white men who are in our kingdom, after having transported their prisoners on the sly in the dead of night. Then the prisoners are branded. The white men…cannot say from whom they have bought the prisoners. Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] The irony is probably the most of these People claimed part Arab ancestry to save their necks against slavers of all colors.To which tribe awlaadberry probably originally belonged.
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quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] The irony is probably the most of these People claimed part Arab ancestry to save their necks against slavers of all colors.To which tribe awlaadberry probably originally belonged.
So now you are saying that these tribes say that they are of Arab origin just to escaped being enslaved??? How silly!
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In the past notice was given that children wore shackles until they could recite Quran by heart. This was to emphasize slavery was the probable future for someone who could not prove beyond doubt that they were Muslim.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not so silly.
In the past notice was given that children wore shackles until they could recite Quran by heart. This was to emphasize slavery was the probable future for someone who could not prove beyond doubt that they were Muslim.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
How does forcing kids to learn the Quran by heart become slavery??? Come on...give me a break!
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posted
Good observation Takruri. Not that Islam created slavery in Western Sudan but its "Laws" helped shape and justify it. Pagans were prime targets for Muslim and Arab Raiders.
Slavery was even lamented as a practice "Justified by God" which is obviously shaped by Koranic scripture and Koranic law.
As with the Christian Kongo kingdom anyone was a open to slavery. Christians sold Christians and Pagans even Nobels were caught up according to King Affonso who began to feel its impact.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not so silly.
In the past notice was given that children wore shackles until they could recite Quran by heart. This was to emphasize slavery was the probable future for someone who could not prove beyond doubt that they were Muslim.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Do you have any documentation?? I would love to read that as it futher develops the world Islam created in Africa. Claiming a holy lineage seems probable, I wish Mazie wad here because I forget the word its called(When non Arabs claim a Holy Lineage to Islam) but I wonder if this was the case else where such as North Africa where the Berbers were subjugated by the arabs.
quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] The irony is probably the most of these People claimed part Arab ancestry to save their necks against slavers of all colors.To which tribe awlaadberry probably originally belonged.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Do you have any documentation?? I would love to read that as it futher develops the world Islam created in Africa. Claiming a holy lineage seems probable, I wish Mazie wad here because I forget the word its called(When non Arabs claim a Holy Lineage to Islam) but I wonder if this was the case else where such as North Africa where the Berbers were subjugated by the arabs.
quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] The irony is probably the most of these People claimed part Arab ancestry to save their necks against slavers of all colors.To which tribe awlaadberry probably originally belonged.
You guys amaze me.
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posted
How does distorting what I wrote make you credible?
You are only here to detract the subject and hijack it into another "Arab" idealogy thread which I hope posters will be smart enough to see through and not allow you to disrupt the subject.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not so silly.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
How does forcing kids to learn the Quran by heart become slavery??? Come on...give me a break!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Do you have any documentation?? I would love to read that as it futher develops the world Islam created in Africa. Claiming a holy lineage seems probable, I wish Mazie wad here because I forget the word its called(When non Arabs claim a Holy Lineage to Islam) but I wonder if this was the case else where such as North Africa where the Berbers were subjugated by the arabs.
quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Mossi, or Gurma, or Busa or Borgu or Dagomba or Kotokoli or Yoruba or Tunbughu or Bubu [Bobo] or Karmu [?] The irony is probably the most of these People claimed part Arab ancestry to save their necks against slavers of all colors.To which tribe awlaadberry probably originally belonged.
You guys amaze me.
^^^ Offer any counter evidence, we have reported Primary sources from African Muslims themselves. The fact that you can not handle it is not of my concern(Maybe Pulp or Takruri might care about your emotions here but I dont).
Islam shaped the practice of slavery and claiming holy lineage seems to be a good explanation for Africans to avoid being enslaved. Mazie exposed this practice among the Berbers in N.A as if other Africans were exempt from the same mentality.
Put up or shut up.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Getting back to topic I wonder how slavery was prior to the abrahamic faiths shaping it in Africa..
Was slavery a practice justified by "gods" to the Pagans..
By the time Europeans began to Industrialize and question slavery...Muslims had clearly seen slavery as justfied by God.
"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself."
but Compared to the Kongo...It was accepted but no justified by God.
"Sir, there is in our kingdom, a great obstacle to God. Many of our subjects crave the Portuguese merchandise which your people bring to our kingdom so keenly. [b]In order to satisfy their crazy appetite they snatch our free subjects, or people who have been freed.
If slavery was seen as justified by God why would he lament Freed people being enslaved as its all fair because God justifies it, rather it was just another Trade, another part of the economy....
So enslaving Freed people and Free subjects is seen as unjustified by God. does this stem Pagan ideas, I don't think Christians had begun to question slavery's morality, plus it was enlightement ideas that questioned slavery.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: How does distorting what I wrote make you credible?
You are only here to detract the subject and hijack it into another "Arab" idealogy thread which I hope posters will be smart enough to see through and not allow you to disrupt the subject.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not so silly.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
How does forcing kids to learn the Quran by heart become slavery??? Come on...give me a break!
What did you write? You said that children were shackled to show that if they didn't learn the Quran by heart to prove that they were Muslims, they would probably be enslaved. Who told you this? And why are you discussing Ahmed Baba - an Islamic scholar?
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posted
In northern Africa people often claim descent of the prophet Muhammed is known as either Asraf or Sayyid. In Egypt they have assign cards for people claiming ashraf. Most of the government from Upper Egypt come from the ashraf.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: we have reported Primary sources from African Muslims themselves.
Which primary sources have you reported and to prove what? What are you saying exactly?
^^^^ You are so clueless its become an annoyance. The Topic of this thread is how Africans veiw the subject of slavery and how Islam and Xtianity shaped this view as opposed to when Africans were pagan.
The Primary sources are there for all to read, from africans themselves. If you can read what is posted and comprhend then I don't know what to do for you.
If you cant Read and Comprehend, please check into a psychology office, you obviously must suffer from mild mental Retardation.
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posted
So would the claim of Asharf keep one from the status of Slavery..?? As Pulp said this claim to Arab decent seems to be used to justify the Status as a Muslim, to avoid being associated with Paganism and hence slavery...this mentality is present where ever Islam goes. I wonder how the practice came about with the Berbers who were oppressed by the Arabs.
Where is Mazie when you need him.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: In northern Africa people often claim descent of the prophet Muhammed is known as either Asraf or Sayyid. In Egypt they have assign cards for people claiming ashraf. Most of the government from Upper Egypt come from the ashraf.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: we have reported Primary sources from African Muslims themselves.
Which primary sources have you reported and to prove what? What are you saying exactly?
^^^^ You are so clueless its become an annoyance. The Topic of this thread is how Africans veiw the subject of slavery and how Islam and Xtianity shaped this view as opposed to when Africans were pagan.
The Primary sources are there for all to read, from africans themselves. If you can read what is posted and comprhend then I don't know what to do for you.
If you cant Read and Comprehend, please check into a psychology office, you obviously must suffer from mild mental Retardation.
Ayyuba Suleiman Diallo
So when Ayyub was out near the Gambia River selling slaves, did he have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the invading Mandingos captured Ayyub and enslaved him, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the Europeans on the coast bought Ayyub and shipped him to America, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery or the pagan view of slavery? And let's not forget the Jewish view of slavery.
"In 1730, Ayuba became a victim of the ever-growing slave exploitation of the Senegambia region. Ayuba and his interpreter Loumein Yoas (also known as “Lamine Jay,” “Lahamin Joy,” “Lahmin Jay,” “Lamine Ndiaye,” “Loumein Ybai,” and “Lamine Jay”) were near the Gambia River to trade slaves and paper. While visiting some friends on their return trip, Ayuba and Yoas were captured by invading Mandingoes.[1] The invaders shaved their heads to make them appear as war captives, and thereby supposedly legitimately enslavable, as opposed to their actual condition of people captured in a kidnapping raid for the specific purpose of selling slaves for financial profit. The two men were sold to factors of the Royal African Company..."
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posted
^ I can say for a fact that there are people in Indonesia who claim Ashraf and probably those in the Muslim island of Mindinao, Philippines. Most of these Sharif claimed Muslims make up the the bulk of imams and government officials as well.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I told you to go look it up yourself not to be lazy and I can open a thread on whatever I like whenever I want to.
I also told you to show where else it was done as long ago as when it was noted in the Maghreb Sudan and you've failed to produce any such evidence.
If you can then please do and perhaps I will revise my conclusion if there is any STRONG evidence to counter it.
Otherwise don't waste my time with tales of Arabian nights.
You have your orders, now attend to them with dispatch.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: What did you write? You said that children were shackled to show that if they didn't learn the Quran by heart to prove that they were Muslims, they would probably be enslaved. Who told you this? And why are you discussing Ahmed Baba - an Islamic scholar?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Thanks for addressing my question on this subject Altakuri and giving it proper audience with its own thread. One interesting aspect of Ahmed Baba's labeling of pagan ethnic groups is the idea that possibly these perceptions carried over into the new world. Paul Love argued that Ahmed Baba sparked a scholarly tradition in the Sahel/Western Sudan that may have had lingering effects on diasporans and the attitudes of different ethnic groups. I know Holloway touched on that somewhat.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I find Baba's full name sometimes has es~Sudane and sometimes not. This makes me wonder if that's due to bias of modern recorders or that Baba began to use it after a certain year in his life. If the latter is true could it have been after taken to Morocco?
It was then he wrote Miraj. Did he take on es~Sudane to emphasize his point of geographic origin and colour not determining potential slave status or did he use it while still at Timbuktu well before the war with Maroc?
I think it would have been likely that he took on the moniker 'es Sudane' after he was imprisoned in Morocco as well especially to emphasize his geographic point of origin because he seemed pretty pissed about the Moroccan invasion of Songhay. Lovejoy interprets the treatise as mainly a defense for Muslim Sudan, hence his condemnation of Muslim states declaring war against each other. He also condemns states that are too tolerant of Pagan beliefs hence his inclusion of the Malinke and Fulbe ethnic groups (according to Lovejoy), whose populations by and large weren't converted I'd assume.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Stop trying to ruin this thread because of your Apologetic agenda.
Islam and Christianity shaped the views of Africans toward slavery. Even in your pathetic attempt to Apologize for Islam you failed...
From Alwaad's Source
The invaders shaved their heads to make them appear as war captives, and thereby supposedly legitimately enslavable, as opposed to their actual condition of people captured in a kidnapping raid for the specific purpose of selling slaves for financial profit.
"Legitimetly" enslavable..LOL, I.E a result of Jihadist Islamic law. Why would pagans need to "Justify" slaving anyone..also as seen in Xtianity in the Kongo EVERYONE WAS FAIR GAME!!! Only in the cult called Islam was enslaving people supposed to be "Justified"...
You're dismissed!!
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
So when Ayyub was out near the Gambia River selling slaves, did he have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the invading Mandingos captured Ayyub and enslaved him, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the Europeans on the coast bought Ayyub and shipped him to America, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery or the pagan view of slavery? And let's not forget the Jewish view of slavery.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Sherifan descent has been used everywhere in Dar ul Islam by those seeking high office. Descent from the prophet is considered right to rule.
Do never trace your descent from your parents back to their parents and so on. Have a pedigree drawn up from some ancient figure, go generation by generation forward in time up to your self (or a greatgrandparent no one can ask).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not so silly.
In the past notice was given that children wore shackles until they could recite Quran by heart. This was to emphasize slavery was the probable future for someone who could not prove beyond doubt that they were Muslim.
Is this practice known anywhere else other than the Maghreb Sudan? If you never knew this was a practice of the blacks there then look it up for yourself before questioning its veracity.
I don't question the practice. I question your interpretation of the practice. It was simply done to force the children to memorize the Quran because the people of the area took the memorization of the Quran VERY seriously. Ibn Batuta noticed this himself back in the 14th century:
دخل الرحالة الشهير ابن بطوطة خلال رحلته في مالي على قاض مالي يوم العيد عام 1352م فوجد أولاده في القيود فقال ألا تسرحهم فأجابه لا أفعل حتى يحفظوا القرآن كما مر ابن بطوطة في مالي بشاب حسن الصوت وعليه ثياب فاخرة وفي رجليه قيد ثقيل فسأل مرافقه عما ارتكبه هذا الشاب من جرم ، وعلم أخيرا أنه قيد حتى ينتهي من حفظ القرآن .
During his trip to Mali, traveler Ibn Batuta entered upon the Caid of Mali on the Day of the Feast (Eid) in 1352 and he found the Caid's children in chains. He said to the Caid:
"Why don't you let them loose?"
The Caid said:
"I won't until they memorize the Quran."
Also, Ibn Batita passed by a youth in Mali with a nice voice, with nice clothes on and with a heavy chain around his legs. He asked his companion what crime the youth had committed to be chained like that and he was told that he was tied up until he finishes memorizing the Quran.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Filth!!!
Stop trying to ruin this thread because of your Apologetic agenda.
Islam and Christianity shaped the views of Africans toward slavery. Even in your pathetic attempt to Apologize for Islam you failed...
From Alwaad's Source
The invaders shaved their heads to make them appear as war captives, and thereby supposedly legitimately enslavable, as opposed to their actual condition of people captured in a kidnapping raid for the specific purpose of selling slaves for financial profit.
"Legitimetly" enslavable..LOL, I.E a result of Jihadist Islamic law. Why would pagans need to "Justify" slaving anyone..also as seen in Xtianity in the Kongo EVERYONE WAS FAIR GAME!!! Only in the cult called Islam was enslaving people supposed to be "Justified"...
You're dismissed!!
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
So when Ayyub was out near the Gambia River selling slaves, did he have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the invading Mandingos captured Ayyub and enslaved him, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery, or the pagan view of slavery? When the Europeans on the coast bought Ayyub and shipped him to America, did they have the Islamic view of slavery, the Christian view of slavery or the pagan view of slavery? And let's not forget the Jewish view of slavery.
I'm going to go ahead and just let you babble as you like.
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posted
Very good Mr. Berry, you uncovered my source. Now, produce a contemporary source showing a non-African non-black set of Muslims that did the same and that their surrounding population were hunted as slaves to be packed off and sold to Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf Muslim states.
Baba's Miraj justifies enslavement of Maghreb Sudanis according to "tribe." A religious bigotry justification.
Right among the same Maghreb Sudan ethny the one who could not prove he was old Muslim was ripe to be enslaved. Being able to recite any sura of Quran was sure proof of Muslim identity sent to school by Muslim parents making one inelligble for enslavement by a Muslim of Maghreb Sudan descent. Hence not knowing Quran was tantamount to being fair game for slave hunters.
Apparently even the Maghreb Sudani who wasn't orthodox was fair game for the slave traders per Baba's Miraj, no?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Very good Mr. Berry, you uncovered my source. Now, produce a contemporary source showing a non-African non-black set of Muslims that did the same and that their surrounding population were hunted as slaves to be packed off and sold to Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf Muslim states.
Baba's Miraj justifies enslavement of Maghreb Sudanis according to "tribe." A religious bigotry justification.
Right among the same Maghreb Sudan ethny the one who could not prove he was old Muslim was ripe to be enslaved. Being able to recite any sura of Quran was sure proof of Muslim identity sent to school by Muslim parents making one inelligble for enslavement by a Muslim of Maghreb Sudan descent. Hence not knowing Quran was tantamount to being fair game for slave hunters.
Why would other sets of Muslims have to use the same technique that they used to get their children to memorize the Quran? And when were Malians "hunted as slaves to be packed off and sold to Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf Muslim states"? And why would they have to memorize the whole Quran to prove that they are Muslims??? Do you think that all Muslims memorize the whole Quran or what???
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posted
^^^^ Provide the Source Al-Takruri i asking. Put up or shut up!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Why would other sets of Muslims have to use the same technique that they used to get their children to memorize the Quran?
Thank you for supporting my hypothesis that non-Magreb Sudani folk had no such dire need.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: And when were Malians "hunted as slaves to be packed off and sold to Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf Muslim states"?
In Battuta's time, if they weren't assuredly Muslim.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: And why would they have to memorize the whole Quran to prove that they are Muslims???
Proof positive they were both orthodox and highly likely not first generation Muslim. A first generation Muslim could be a converted slave. A converted slave remained eligible for the slave mart.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Do you think that all Muslims memorize the whole Quran or what???
Why ask a question who's obvious answer is of course not? A free "white" Muslim in Maghreb Sudan had no worry of slavers, only the black Muslims need be wary.
Again, thank you for confirming my hypothesis that Magreb Sudan children were shackled until they knew Quran by heart as a reminder that otherwise they may likely find themselves in a position to be enslaved.
Do you have a historically supported alternative from the era of Battuta and the time of the great Maghreb Sudan empires of Mali and Songhai?
Take your time and be thorough. I'm not debating you. This is a discussion. The goal is to relay facts as they stand and to confirm or disconfirm hypothesis derived from analysis of said facts.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
When are you going to defend your translation here?
Never? Are you afraid of awlaadBerry or something? Yup, that's it. You are afraid of awlaadBerry aren't you?
And here I believed in your translation, one that holds no water and you don't believe in yourself.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Thank you for supporting my hypothesis that non-Magreb Sudani folk had no such dire need.
[/QUOTE]
Nor did the Maghreb Sudani folk - except for the dire need for their children to be huffadh (memorizers) of the Holy Book the Quran.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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In Battuta's time, if they weren't assuredly Muslim.
Can you give me proof that Malians were "hunted as slaves to be packed off and sold to Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf Muslim states"? And you say that this happened in Ibn Batuta's time. Show me proof of this.
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Proof positive they were both orthodox and highly likely not first generation Muslim. A first generation Muslim could be a converted slave. A converted slave remained eligible for the slave mart.
[/QUOTE]
Do you really believe this? If so, show me proof. Why can't you believe that these Muslims encouraged their children to memorize the Quran for the same reasons that other Muslims did at the time and before that time and after that time? Why does their memorizing the Quran have to be connected to slavery? It seems like you are saying that slavery was connected to dark skin. That mentality didn't start until the arrival of the descendants of Japheth on the scene. Before that, anyone was open bait for those out to enslave - regardless of skin color. There was also slavery as a result of wars - not based on skin color.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QUOTE] A free "white" Muslim in Maghreb Sudan had no worry of slavers, only the black Muslims need be wary.
I'm not sure who you mean by a free "white" Muslim, but read this story about the capture and enslavement of Ben Ali, who was enslaved and sent to America:
"...The affidavit further says, “Ben Ali was a man reputed to have been an Arab slave hunter, who himself became a slave.” “Ben Ali was the leader of a band that made constant war on some of the African tribes in the Senegambian region. With their captives, this band of Arabs frequently pushed on to the Guinea coast and there sold them to the slave traders. These excursions continued until, on one occasion, the Arabs chanced to clash with a war-loving tribe, which was also engaged in plundering and raiding its neighbors. The meeting was unexpected to the Arabs, but not to the Africans. The Arabs who were left alive were led captive to the coast and there sold with other prisoners to slave traders. Among them was Ben Ali, who was then not more than thirty years old. With the rest, he was brought to America, where he was sold to a Virginian planter, fetching a very high price"
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Again, thank you for confirming my hypothesis that Magreb Sudan children were shackled until they knew Quran by heart as a reminder that otherwise they may likely find themselves in a position to be enslaved.
What did I say that makes you think that I support this hypothesis of yours? I don't support it and you have presented no proof to support it.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] [QUOTE] Do you have a historically supported alternative from the era of Battuta and the time of the great Maghreb Sudan empires of Mali and Songhai?
Alternative to what?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QUOTE] Take your time and be thorough. I'm not debating you. This is a discussion. The goal is to relay facts as they stand and to confirm or disconfirm hypothesis derived from analysis of said facts.
I'm not debating you either, AlTakruri. I'm just saying that this hypothesis of yours isn't correct.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Some might find this of interest; it’s a collection of early Hadiths on slavery comparable with slave codes, Old Testament and so forth. Nevertheless still interesting to see how State religion interweaves with slavery as seen with Ahmad Bābā.
section Malik said, "According to the way of doing things with us there is nothing wrong in bartering an arabic speaking merchant slave for abyssinian slaves or any other type that are not his equal in eloquence, trading, shrewdness, and know-how. There is nothing wrong in bartering one slave like this for two or more other slaves with a stated delay in the terms if he is clearly different. If there is no appreciable difference between the slaves, two should not be bartered for one with a stated delay in the terms even if their racial type is different."Posts: 41 | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Pulp: Some might find this of interest; it’s a collection of early Hadiths on slavery comparable with slave codes, Old Testament and so forth. Nevertheless still interesting to see how State religion interweaves with slavery as seen with Ahmad Bābā.
section Malik said, "According to the way of doing things with us there is nothing wrong in bartering an arabic speaking merchant slave for abyssinian slaves or any other type that are not his equal in eloquence, trading, shrewdness, and know-how. There is nothing wrong in bartering one slave like this for two or more other slaves with a stated delay in the terms if he is clearly different. If there is no appreciable difference between the slaves, two should not be bartered for one with a stated delay in the terms even if their racial type is different."
I don't get the relevance of what you have quoted.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Hey sorry to resurrect a really old thread but I disagree with the idea that the Malians needed to prove to anyone they were Muslim. They practiced nudity and even the children of the ruler of the country would walk around naked. They passed down the family name on the maternal side, certainly against Koranic law. They probably had their own hadiths emphasizing the blackness of Mohamed and other things to justify freedom of women. There seems to be no evidence that they felt any need to prove to anyone they were real Muslims.
Who exactly were they trying to prove to that they were Muslim? The very Berbers that they ruled over were compelled to fight in Mali armies?
Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History P. 338-339
Ibn Khaldun:
quote: In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abu Inan [of Morocco]. I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takadda at the residence of Yusuf al-Muzani emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfarers and said: "This year there passed through our city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly event. This country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the Mulaththamun
The Mali empire spread up to Taghaza and as Ibn Khaldun wrote all the veiled people fought in Mali armies.
It should be pointed out that the Sonni Ali of the Songhay empire was also seen as a pagan although he called himself a Muslim he did keep pagan rituals. He had no fear of being enslaved or being considered a "true" Muslim. In fact the supposedly Muslim empire of Mali also kept old pagan rituals as described by Ibn Battuta
I can post more another time but it does seem unlikely that the Morocans would want to travel across the desert and disrupt the gold trade to capture slaves. In fact the Moroccan invasion of Songhay was to get the mines of Taghaza and then they put their sites on gold mines. The Moroccans then had firearms but didn't in the 14th century
Posts: 1 | From: Merica | Registered: Aug 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I really should intersperse this into your post Merica but maybe I can make up for it with some scans at a later date.
I agree. Mali was the super power of Africa at that time. Mansa Musa's hajj itinerary proves it. His rule extended to every stop along the Mimah - Walata/Aiwalatin - Touat route from where he entered the international caravan route on to Egypt.
I think people who couldn't prove to the Maliens that they were Muslim could be enslaved by the Maliens for home use or export across the sand. Mali did make revenue off of selling people.
It was internal you see. What was there to prove to the northerners? They didn't care.
The history of Mulay Ishmaels' Gnawa Army showed that up north black color was the factor determining slave status not Islam since the Gnawa were all Muslims and most of them were born free Muslim citizens of Maroc.
This custom of chaining children slow in reciting Quaran by heart was peculiar to the Malien Empire mentioned by a Maghrebi who had not any idea of such a thing.
No one has to agree with my interpretation of the fact but so far no one has offered any other probable alternatives why slack learners were enchained. The only people I ever heard of who wear shackles are either prisoners or the enslaved.
Anyway, thanks for the critique and welcome aboard. Loved the map. Looking forward to you regularly posting.
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