quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: @Swenet
When you cop out, it means I win. lol
Since you keep following me around and beg for my attention like a little schoolgirl.
As usual, I predict the Amun Ra troll is going to run away/run out of meaningful things to say somewhere halfway down the first thread page.
The point of contention is the relationship of Upper Palaeolithic Egyptians and their descendants in dynastic Egypt and among living Africans.
I say the more ancestry African populations have inherited from the aforementioned Upper Palaeolithic Egyptians, the more related they're going to be to the first mtDNA M and mtDNA N OOA community.
Because I already know Amun Ra is going to lie when I write down what his positions are when it comes to the above issue (we've been here many times in the past), I'm going to leave Amun Ra's positions blank and let him invent whatever narrative he feels is going to be expedient for him to hide behind for the (extremely short) duration of this thread.
Since it's the oldest complete skeleton we have of an AMH from Egypt, we can start with Nazlet Khater 2 (NK2) and contrast him with skeletal remains from areas in Eurasia and Africa.
Hey. What a coincidence! Nazlet Khater II just so "happens" to bear a close overall resemblance to Oase II! Furthermore, it appears closer to the Oase II cranium than to the South African Hofmyer cranium!
Gee, what could this mean for the aforementioned proposition under examination?
At this point, Amun Ra can do several things:
1) He can say that there are better UP African crania to compare NK2 to, and back this up by posting examples that show that NK2 is closer to African skeletal remains than to Oase II.
2) He can run away as he always does when it gets too hot under his feet
3) He can come up with excuses as to why this damning evidence doesn't mean anything, because "Ramses III [insert his usual spam]" and "DNA tribes [insert his usual spam]".
Let's see if he can stand his ground better this time than his previous attempts.
Amun Ra, you should be frantically googling for answers right now. Kdolo and the rest of Team Denial are counting on you to represent for them.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ramses III is determined to be E1b1a or that they are considered indigenous Africans not migrants from Eurasia by archaeologists?
What is you basic answer to this in layman's terms?
E1b1a is of East African origin ( E-V38)
E-V38 reaches frequencies of over 80% in many parts of West Africa, Central Africa, East Africa as well as Southern Africa. This haplogroup's frequency and diversity are highest in the West Africa region many countries 70-100%.
Outside of Africa, E-V38 has been found at low frequencies. Highest, 7.6%, Saudi Arabia
So can we not say that Ramses III was African and cannot be closer to a Eurasian?
mtDNA ? If a male is defined by a Y DNA haplgroup, please descibe the relevance of the DNA inherited from their mother
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I say the more ancestry African populations have inherited from the aforementioned Upper Palaeolithic Egyptians, the more related they're going to be to the first mtDNA M and mtDNA N OOA community.
And according to you what is the MtDNA and Y-DNA of those "Upper Paleolithic Egyptians"?
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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I'm not clear on if you're asking me or him, but if you're asking me, and you're interested in a learning more, I suggest reading about things like founder effect, natural selection etc.
One of the side effects of these evolutionary forces is that a haplogroup can be brought from location A, to location B and rise in frequency there while traces of the same migrant population in the autosomal pool of later generations of location B can get completely watered down.
So you can get a Y chromosome that on the surface LOOKS like it tells you the ethnic background of the carrier, while it really doesn't or only partly.
Evolutionary forces like these shuffle genetic material around in interesting and unexpected ways. They are why you can get a Sicilian village with high frequencies of Benin Sickle Cell, but a lopsided (i.e. very low) percentage of corresponding Benin-like autosomal ancestry. Or why the haplogroups of Melungeons are so far mostly West African + Northwest European, but they don't look like your average US mulattoes, suggesting there is more going on there that the hgs alone aren't revealing (so far).
So, hgs or other single locus mutations (which is what haplogroups are) are extremely susceptible to the curveballs nature throws over time. That's why Y chromosomes don't tell you what Amun Ra is using it for. To do what he tries to do, you have to look at WHO in Ramses III's pedigree brought E-V38 into his family and how many generations ago. Since we don't have this information, the best, albeit flawed, guess is to simply look at what Ramses III looks like. For an even better guess, look at what his entire family looks like.
Since your physical appearance is encoded in your autosomes, along with most ancestry markers, and haplogroup information is stored elsewhere, someone's physical appearance has a stronger link with their genome-wide ancestry than their haplogroup. In fact, sometimes markers that are used to help identify your ancestry are also markers that code for your appearance (think SLC24A5). So, whatever, Ramses III's family looks like, is the best clue to his autosomal affinity in the absence of genome-wide autosomal tests.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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So, hgs or other single locus mutations (which is what haplogroups are) are extremely susceptible to the curveballs nature throws over time. That's why Y chromosomes don't tell you what Amun Ra is using it for. To do what he tries to do, you have to look at WHO in Ramses III's pedigree brought E-V38 into his family and how many generations ago. Since we don't have this information, the best, albeit flawed, guess is to simply look at what Ramses III looks like. For an even better guess, look at what his entire family looks like.
Since your physical appearance is encoded in your autosomes, along with most ancestry markers, and haplogroup information is stored elsewhere, someone's physical appearance has a stronger link with their genome-wide ancestry than their haplogroup. In fact, sometimes markers that are used to help identify your ancestry are also markers that code for your appearance (think SLC24A5). So, whatever, Ramses III's family looks like, is the best clue to his autosomal affinity in the absence of genome-wide autosomal tests. [/QB]
thanks, the question was @you
but disregarding looks
can we say that Ramses III was E1b1a (E-V38) and the originates in East Africa to what extent can we say can we say Ramses III was African?
That group is heavily African
Even if somebody brought it in from Arabia can one say that that person was recent to Africa an thus Ramses III was also?
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: And according to you what is the MtDNA and Y-DNA of those "Upper Paleolithic Egyptians"?
Lol. He's trying to buy time with polemics instead of deconstructing the proposition step by step. How laughably transparent. If I answer his question and mention a hg, he'll go googling the distribution of this hg and see if West Africans have it, so he can come back and say: "see, Nazlet Khater is West African". He doesn't understand how irrelevant hgs are when it comes to this and that unknown non-mtDNA Eve lineages were in North Africa at the time. He thinks his question was smooth on his part, but he just ends up looking illiterate because you can't guess something like this.
Also, he's secretly taking notes on all my posts, including the post above directed at lioness. As the conversation goes on, he will adapt his positions in subtle and overt ways. All the while, he lies to the public and pretends to debate me like we're equals on this subject.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Since we don't have this information, the best, albeit flawed, guess is to simply look at what Ramses III looks like. For an even better guess, look at what his entire family looks like.
Since your physical appearance is encoded in your autosomes, along with most ancestry markers, and haplogroup information is stored elsewhere, someone's physical appearance has a stronger link with their genome-wide ancestry than their haplogroup. In fact, sometimes markers that are used to help identify your ancestry are also markers that code for your appearance (think SLC24A5). So, whatever, Ramses III's family looks like, is the best clue to his autosomal affinity in the absence of genome-wide autosomal tests.
Ramses III offering incense, wall painting in KV11.
Ramses III, mummy Ramses III, mummy
___________________________________
PARENTS Drawing of a relief of pharaoh Sethnakht. Father of Ramses III
Queen Tiy-Merenese. Mother of Ramses II Slab with relief of queen Tiy-Merenese (and her cartouche), wife of pharaoh Sethnakht and mother of pharaoh Ramesses III. From Abydos, 20th dynasty (later reused) now in Cairo Museum (JE 36339).
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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So, hgs or other single locus mutations (which is what haplogroups are) are extremely susceptible to the curveballs nature throws over time. That's why Y chromosomes don't tell you what Amun Ra is using it for. To do what he tries to do, you have to look at WHO in Ramses III's pedigree brought E-V38 into his family and how many generations ago. Since we don't have this information, the best, albeit flawed, guess is to simply look at what Ramses III looks like. For an even better guess, look at what his entire family looks like.
Since your physical appearance is encoded in your autosomes, along with most ancestry markers, and haplogroup information is stored elsewhere, someone's physical appearance has a stronger link with their genome-wide ancestry than their haplogroup. In fact, sometimes markers that are used to help identify your ancestry are also markers that code for your appearance (think SLC24A5). So, whatever, Ramses III's family looks like, is the best clue to his autosomal affinity in the absence of genome-wide autosomal tests.
thanks, the question was @you
but disregarding looks
can we say that Ramses III was E1b1a (E-V38) and the originates in East Africa to what extent can we say can we say Ramses III was African?
That group is heavily African
Even if somebody brought it in from Arabia can one say that that person was recent to Africa an thus Ramses III was also? [/QB]
1) I think the genetic test was accurate, if that's what you mean
2) If I interpret your question right, yes E-V38 is East African. E-V38 seems to have spent 2/3rds of its time in East Africa, before a single branch (E-M2) spread to West and Central Africa and mixed with people who lived there.
3) You can't say based on one African haplogroup result what an individual's ethnic background is. It's suggestive, but not conclusive. All a single Y chromosome result tells you with certainty is that you're a male and in which human lineage you are, just like your surname (which is also a type of 'lineage'). Just like you can carry a surname that is completely at odds with your ancestry (e.g. if you're adopted into a different culture), you can have a Y chromosome that is completely at odds with your overall ancestry. This uncertainty arises because Ramses III is just an individual. If you sample Ramses III's entire family and all you get is African hgs, you can be more certain that the sample has an African autosomal background.
4) You mean to ask that, if Y E-V38 originated in Arabia, and Ramses III inherited it, he could still be African? In terms of genome-wide ancestry, yes. Depending on how endogamous your family is, certain family members are going to have hgs that don't match your shared ethnic background. They're still going to be more closely related to you if they're your blood and the 'foreign' haplogroup has been circulating in your close knit community for many generations. It's like money laundering where you can no longer tell criminal money apart legit money. The longer a 'foreign' haplogroup gets passed on within a homogeneous community, the more the associated foreign autosomal signal lowers and eventually disappears. After a while, you can end up with a foreign hg, but your physical appearance and autosomal signal may be indistinguishable from others in your ethnic group. This is how E-V38/E-M2 eventually got associated with West/Central African autosomal ancestry or how E-M78/E-V13 eventually got associated with European autosomal ancestry and phenotypes.
Do you now understand why Amun Ra's insistence that Ramses III is E-V38 in response to what I'm saying, is just irrelevant spam?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
It's like I told someone else recently. If you want to understand this, you have to actively read about it. But the moral of the story is that Ramses III's hg assignment allows you to trace where he fits in the hundreds of human lines of descent in which we can all be born. MtDNA Eve and Y Adam are at the top of this scheme, and we (living humans) at the tips. It's not primarily ancestry information. The ancestry information buried in hgs is secondary and relatively weak, although useful in the right hands.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Thanks for the info. These things are not so easy to understand
But Lioness, this has been explained to you and the forum many times. Things like genetic drift etc...
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As usual, I predict the Amun Ra troll is going to run away/run out of meaningful things to say somewhere halfway down the first thread page.
Here I was, thinking Amun would at least last until halfway down the first thread page. He didn't last a second. The funny part is that he thinks he's fooling anyone by saying that I'm copping out for refusing to entertain his distractions.
Amun, why do NK2, UP Egyptians and UP Sudanese fit better, consistently better, with UP Maghrebis and UP Europeans, in terms of vault and face analyses? Or, as lioness would suggest I phrase the question: why do UP Europeans fit better with these Nile Valley Africans? Why don't the UP Nile Valley remains form an exclusive cluster with Sub Saharan Hofmyer, and why is there not a good amount of distance between all the UP Africans on the one hand and the UP Europeans and Afalou and Taforalt on the other hand? Source
Wait for more evasive maneuvers from the character who calls himself "Amun". It's only a matter of time before he starts fuming and calls me a "wasist".
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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