posted                      

Most people know about the OOA migrations. A small group of people left Africa around 65 000 years ago and formed the basal ancestral group of all non-Africans. It took more than 30-40 000 years before any back migration of non-African in Africa. What is less talked about is the within Africa migrations and population history after the OOA migrations.

After the OOA migrations, African populations who stayed back in Africa were not static, fixated in time. They continued to interact, admix with each others as well as migrating in different directions, sharing cultures, developing new languages. For example, creating the E, E-P2, L3eikx, L3bf haplogroups as well as many downstream A and B haplogroups and admixing with each others (especially through patrilocality).

It's not surprising to find common DNA between African (sub-Saharan) people (Yoruba, Somali, Dinka, Wolof, etc) and Kushites/Ancient Egyptians people since they all share a common origin in North-Eastern Africa (after the OOA migrations of course). For example, the Niger-Congo languages as well as Nilo-Saharan languages have their common origin in Northeastern Africa around Sudan/Ethiopia (I don't have to repeat it but this common linguistic origin is also after the OOA migrations of course).

As another example we can note most Niger-Congo, Cushitic and Chadic speakers share the same Y-DNA haplogroup E-P2. The haplogroup E-P2 is the haplogroup of over 80% of African people (Sub-Saharan Africans/black Africans).

Obenga, basing his work on Anta Diop and Lilias Homburger before him, has determined the probable language of the common E-P2 ancestor which he calls African-Egyptian/Negro-Egyptian . This is not a mainstream linguistic view (such as Ehret posted below) but it comes to the reason that the common E-P2 ancestor, grandfather of most African people, spoke a language and this language was the common language of all his descendant people (current E-P2 carriers like E1b1a/E1b1b carriers which I recall form about over 80% of modern African people) which must have left some traces of it in various descendants modern African languages.

Ramses III=E1b1a, BMJ, JAMA and DNA Tribes data are other evidence of this as well as many lines of inquiries from linguistic to genetics passing by Biological Anthropology. Which I will expose below.

Modern African people, like all people in the world, as well as Kushites and Ancient Egyptians are the products of demographic changes in the last 6000-8000 years (genetic drift, change in lifestyles, change in physiology, demographic expansion, admixtures, post-dynastic migrations, admixtures and conquests, within-Africa migrations and admixtures, etc).


1) Genetically: The current ancient DNA analysis of Ancient Egyptians mummy specimen have identified the haplogroup E1b1a for Ramses III and the screaming mummy. The most common haplogroup among Sub-Saharan Africans and African-Americans. Autosomal STR have them clustering with Great Lakes, Southern and West Africans. Not Eurasians. This is all from the JAMA , BMJ and DNA Tribes studies mentioned in this thread and forum. Ancient DNA in general has the best discriminative power to identify related and non-related populations.

2) Cultural Archaeology: Same here, Ancient Egyptians share many cultural characteristics with other African populations. It has been demonstrated that Ancient Egypt was mostly the product of an indigenous African development. From their common origin in Eastern Africa, to the Green Sahara culture (Wavy-line pottery), to Nabta Playa, Tasian, Badarian, Naqada culture.


3) Biological Anthropology: Same here, Ancient Egyptians cluster with modern African populations not modern Eurasian populations. The change in physiology between them and their North-East African ancestors/predecessor is related to the change in lifestyles and diet and genetic drift. For example, the transition from hunter-gatherers, to pastoralism to agriculture lifestyles. Ancient Egyptians have been demonstrated to be continuous with their Northeastern African ancestors/predecessors in modern studies.


Let's consider the data from this study:
The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form by Brace (2005)


Fig. 1. Neighbor-joining dendrogram for a series of prehistoric and recent
human populations (Craniofacial measures)

Clearly, we can see Niger-Congo speakers (Tanzania, Dahomey, Congo), Nubians, Somali, Naqada clustering on the same branch. Completely distinct from modern Eurasian populations like in Egypt, Middle East, Italy, France, or Germany.


Same for post-cranial analysis:


We can see African populations (including East, West Africans and African-Americans) clustering at the top and non-African populations clustering at the bottom.

This study has the same analysis:

From Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements by F. X. RICAUT and M. WAELKENS (2008)

This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972;Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger- Congo populations).


This affinity between Ancient and modern Northeastern African populations and Niger-Congo speakers (which form the majority of African people) can also be seen genetically and linguistically. As modern East and West African people (and Ancient Egyptians of course) have a common origin in Eastern Africa after the Out of Africa migrations of Eurasian people ancestors .

Genetically:
Y-DNA:

In term of uniparental Y-DNA African people are from the A, B and E haplogroups.

And here for MtDNA (other L haplogroups were obviously not part of the OOA migrations so I didn't include them in the graph):

In term of uniparental MtDNA haplogroups Africans are from the L haplogroups.

African populations are genetically close to each others in a similar way Eurasian populations are close to each others, mitigated by the amount of "recent" Eurasian back migration they possess. Bi-directional migrations must also be taken into account.

Before the OOA migrations the E and even the related E-P2 haplogroups didn't even exist as East and West Africans (the greater part of their ancestry) were still part of the same population in North-East Africa. Where they eventually developed the E and E-P2 haplogroups. Eventually spreading E-P2 across Africa along with its MtDNA haplogroups counterparts (like L2a, L3bf (L3b, L3f), L3cd (L3c, L3d), L3eijx (L3e, L3i, etc), L0a, etc.) which can be seen all over Africa in Yoruba, Somali, Zulu, etc.

E-P2 (PN2) is one of the main haplogroup in Africa along with other E, A and B haplogroups. It has its origin after the main OOA migration of non-Africans. E-P2 carriers weren't part of the main OOA migration.

So E-P2 unites most African people and is probably one of the main haplogroup among Ancient Egyptians along with other A, B and E haplogroups. Most Niger-Congo(Kordofanian), Cushitic and Chadic speakers are carriers of E-P2.

E-P2 originate Northeastern Africa maybe around Sudan/Ethiopia:

quote:

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Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa.

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-- from A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (Trombetta 2011)


We can see something similar for autosomal DNA, we also see African populations clustering close to each others (like Europeans, Native Americans and East Asians too respectively) in term of genetic distance mitigated by the level of "recent" (post OOA) Eurasian back migrations into those populations.

For example, on this genetic distance tree from Tishkoff we can clearly see African population clustering on one side and non-African populations clustering on the other side. We can measure the genetic distance too since the genetic distance tree is on scale.


We can see a bigger and more clear image Here and in the study link below.
From The genetic structure and history of Africans and African Americans by Tishkoff (2009)

We can notice among other populations Maasai, Yoruba, Fulani, African-Americans clustering close to each others compared to with Eurasian populations. That is despite, for example, Fulani having some substantial level of Eurasian admixture. Of course population like Mozabite and Beja which are more "recently" admixed with back migrating Eurasians post OOA are kind of in-between (their genetic closeness with other African populations are mitigated by the amount of Eurasian admixtures in their populations).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


There's also the DNA Tribes genetic distance tree between population clusters. Which I can't post because of the 8 images by post limit but we can see HERE :

We can see West Africans, East Africans, Nilotic, etc clustering with each other under the Sub-Saharan African label.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We can also see it here too (I guess I could post hundreds of similar graphs:

From the same Tishkoff (2009) study linked above. Direct link to supplement pdf: DOWNLOAD

Here we can see again, African populations like Fulani, Cushitic, Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo clustering closer to each others than they do with Eurasian populations.

I guess I could post many more similar genetic distance graphs with similar results.


Linguistically:
All modern African languages family, including Niger-Congo have their ancient origin in North-Eastern Africa:

From:Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)

Ultimately, most African people, including Somali, Yoruba, and Ancient Egyptians, share a common origin in Northeastern Africa at a time period after the OOA migrations of non-Africans.


Other threads of interests:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009018
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008815
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008903
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009022;p=11#000536

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African languages did not originate in Eastern Africa. The archaeological evidence indicates that the Khoisan speakers originated in Southern Africa, while Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo originated in the Highlands of the Sahara.

Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. Drake et al [1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [2].




The Ounanians were members of the Capsian population.There was continuity between the populations in the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, and Mechtoids [3]. The Niger-Congo speakers are decendants of the Capsian population.

Capsian people did not only live in Afrca, they were also present in South Asia. Using craniometric data researchers have made it clear that the Dravidian speakers of South India and the Indus valley were primarily related to the ancient Capsian or Mediterranean population [4-9].
Lahovary [7] and Sastri [8] maintains that the Capsian population was unified over an extensive zone from Africa, across Eurasia into South India. Some researchers maintain that the Capsian civilization originated in East Africa [7].

The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [10]. The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the close relationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages.

The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. From here NC populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.
The Kushites were noted for their ability with the bow. The Ounanian culture is characterized by arrows. This led me to conclude that this culture was the founder culture of the Kushites.

Kushites founded the Proto-Saharan civilization called Maa.The Proto-Niger-Congo people probably practiced an agro-pastoral culture, not aquatic.
The first domesticated animals, plants and religious ideas are found in the Sahara not East Africa. Moreover, the majority of elements in Egyptian society are found first in the Sahara. None of these elements can be found in East Africa.





Look at the map, the sites for the earliest ceramics are all West of East Africa. The same is true for the first evidence of animal and plant domestication.





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Because the speakers of Negro-Egyptian share the names for most plants and animals indicate that before they separated they had already invented pottery and domesticated most plants and animals.

There is no evidence of animal and plant domestication in East Africa, only the Sahara.
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As a result, the origin of Negro-Egyptian probably took place west of the Nile Valley. It was in the Sahara that the first African civilization originated: the Maa Confederation. It was after the fall of this civilization that they people began to migrate into the Nile Valley.

The Paleo-African hunters quickly learned the habits of wild sheep and goats. As a result of this hunting experience and the shock of the short arid period after 8500 BC, Paleo-Africans began to domesticate goat/sheep to insure a reliable source of food. By 6000 BP the inhabitants of Tadrart Acacus were reliant on sheep and goats (Barich 1985).

The first domesticated goats came from North Africa. This was the screw horn goat common to Algeria, where it may have been deposited in Neolithic times. We certainly see goat/sheep domestication moving eastward: Tadrart Acacus (Camps 1974), Tassili-n-Ajjer , Mali (McIntosh & McIntosh 1988), Niger (Roset 1983) and the Sudan. Barker (1989) has argued that sheep and goats increased in importance over cattle because of their adaptation to desiccation.

The linguistic evidence indicates that ovicaprids were domesticated before the Proto-Saharan people migrated out of the Sahara into the Nile Valley, Europe and Asia. As a result we have proto-terms for sheep going back to Proto-Saharan times.

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The Egyptian terms for sheep,ram are ø zr #, or ø sr # . In the terms for sheep we find either the consonant /s/ or /z/ before the consonant /r/, e.g., s>øa/e/i#________r. This corresponds to many other African terms for sheep, ram:

• Language….Sheep, Ram
  Egyptian sr, zr
  Wolof xar
  Coptic sro
  Bisa sir
  Kouy siri
  Lebir sir
  Amo zara
  Bobofing se-ge,sege
  Toma seree
  Malinke sara
  Busa sa
  Bambara sarha,saga
  Koro isor
  Boko sa
  Bir sir
  Azer sege 'goat'
  Diola sarha

quote:

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now buried palaeo river systems could have been active at the key time of human migration across the Sahara. Unexpectedly, it is the most western of these three rivers, the Irharhar river, that represents the most likely route for human migration. The Irharhar river flows directly south to north, uniquely linking the mountain areas experiencing monsoon climates at these times to temperate Mediterranean environments where food and resources would have been abundant.

Uniquely, the Irharhar extends from humid to humid climes - ranging from the monsoonal Ahaggar and Tibesti region to the North Western Mediterranean climate zone that also received substantial winter rainfall (Fig. 1). High humidity in the destination region during the last interglacial is confirmed by the presence of significant water near the Chott Melrir basin [39]. Whilst the more extensive Sahabi and Kufrah also traverse the Sahara, their downstream limits remain within the arid/semi-arid regions



.

Support for the significance of the Irharhar river corridor is provided by the high number of Middle Stone Age archaeological sites concentrated in the western region (Fig. 2). Many of these locations contain Levallois lithic artefacts with Aterian affinities that on comparative grounds can be plausibly dated to the last Interglacial [41], [42]. It is highly likely given the existing artefact distributions that humans migrated northwards from the relatively humid Trans-Saharan mountainous zones to the Maghrebian Mediterranean biome (Fig. 2). The loose clustering of sites along our simulated Irharhar river and associated channels implies this as a preferred route of dispersal


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posted                         

quote:

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Anu first rulers of Egypt




Nar mar conquroring the Anu ?


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quote:

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The “Ounanian” of Northern Mali, Southern Algeria,
Niger, and central Egypt at ca. 10 ka is partly defined by a
distinctive type of arrow point (37). These arrowheads are found
in much of the northern Sahara (Fig. 3) and are generally considered
to have spread from Northwest Africa. This view is supported
by the affinity of this industry with the Epipalaeolithic that also
appears to have colonized the Sahara from the north (41). No
Ounanian points occur in West Africa before 10 ka, suggesting
the movement of a technology across the desert from north to
south around this time.

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The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers (Winters,1994,2002,2012). These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC(Winters,1994,2002).

Overtime the Saharan Highlands/Mountains of the Moon area became arid. As the Highlands became arid the Proto-Saharans migrated down from the Mountains of the Moon to settle around the MegaChad and MegaFezzan lakes. Around MegaFezzan the Proto-Saharans founded the Maa civilization. Around this time West Africa and the Nile Valley was probably controlled by the Pgymies,

This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent(Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991, 2002). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite.
.




.
The proto-Saharans specialized in the use of the bow. They were experts in navigation and boat technology.This resulted from the presence of numerous rivers and lakes that dotted africa at this time.



These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians (Winters,1994,2002). Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population".

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273; Winters,2002) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985;Winters,1994).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986; Winters,1994) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists.(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.

The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.

The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated (Winters,2012).

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats(Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier, 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first around the megalakeFezzan. Here they founded the Maa civilization until this area was also overcome by arid winds.

Other Proto-Saharans, left the megalakeFezzan area migrated from there southward into Nubia and thence they moved along the Nile up into Upper Egypt or Kem/Egypt which was originally occupied by the Anu or pgymy people. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

The ancestors of the Kemites originally lived in Nubia. The Nubian origin of Egyptian civilization is supported by the discovery of artifacts by archaeologists from the Oriental Institute at Qustul. On a stone incense burner found at Qustul we find a palace facade, a crowned King sitting on a throne in a boat, with a royal standard placed before the King and hovering above him, the falcon god Horus. The white crown on this Qustul king was later worn by the rulers of Upper Egypt.



Many Egyptologists were shocked to learn in 1979, that the A-Group of Nubia at Qustul used Egyptian type writing two hundred years before the Egyptians (Williams 1987). This fact had already been recognized much earlier by Anta Diop (1974) when he wrote that it was in Nubia "where we find the animals and plants represented in hieroglyphic writing".

In reality the early Egyptians used the Thinite script. This was a syllabic form of writing later used by the people of the Sahara, Elamites, Indus Valley and the Olmecs in America.



The Qustul incense burner indicates that the unification of Nubia preceded that of Egypt. The Ta-Seti had a rich culture at Qustul. Qustul Cemetery L had tombs that equaled or exceeded Kemite tombs of the First Dynasty of Egypt. The A-Group people were called Steu 'bowmen'.

The Steu had the same funeral customs, pottery, musical instruments and related artifacts of the Egyptians. Williams (1987, p.173,182) believes that the Qustul Pharaohs are the Egyptian Rulers referred to as the Red Crown rulers in ancient Egyptian documents.

Dr. Williams (1987) gave six reasons why he believes that the Steu of Qustul founded Kemite civilization:

1. Direct progression of royal complex designs from Qustul to Hierakonpolis to Abydos.

2. Egyptian objects in Naqada III a-b tombs

3. No royal tombs in Lower and Upper Egypt.

4. Pharoanic monuments that refer to conflict in Upper Egypt.

5. Inscriptions of the ruler Pe-Hor, are older than Iry-Hor of Abydos.

6. The ten rulers of Qustul, one at Hierakonpolis and three at Abydos corresponds to the "historical"kings of late Naqada period.

The findings of Williams (1987), support the findings of Diop (1991) because we also understand better now why the Egyptian term designating royalty etymologically means: (the man) who comes from the South= nsw< n y swt = who belongs to the South= who is a native of the South= the King of Lower Egypt, and has never meant just King, in other words king of Lower and Upper Egypt, King of all Egypt (p.108).

During Kemite Dynasty I,the A-Group or Ta-Seti (Kushite) people of Lower Nubia disappear. Given the close relationship between the Predynastic Egyptians and Ta-Seti who founded the first empire on earth (Williams 1985), suggest that the Narmar Palette, depiction of the epic battle which unified Kem may also record the forced submission of the A-Group people to Upper Egyptian rule. The terms of this victory may have called for the A-Group people to move into Kem. This would explain the lack of archaeological data on the A-Group people after the unification of Kem. This would also explain how the Egyptian form of government came from the south into the Delta. Trigger (1987) noted that: Evidence that both the Red and the White Crowns were originally southern Egyptian symbols suggests that most of the iconography originated in Upper Egypt" (p.63).

The research makes it clear that the first sepats or nomes of Egypt were probably founded by “Kushites” who spoke a Niger-Congo language and belonged to the Ounanian culture. The A-Group people were the foundation of the Egyptians. The Egyptians differenciated themselves from the Kushites once the former city-states or sepats became Kem (Winters,1994,2002).

References:


Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.

_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian.

Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.

Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.

_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.

__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.

___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.

____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by
Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.

____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancientet les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.

_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.

Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan.The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.

Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.

Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.

Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.

Winters, Clyde. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians,Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization, 3(1):1-9. http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf . Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto-terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.

__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.

___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites,Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.

_____________. (1994). Afrocentricity: A Valid Frame of Reference. Journal of Black Studies, 5(2);170-190. In this paper Dr. Winters explains the reality of Afrocentrism as a social science. He explains that ancient Egypt was probably founded by the A-Group, and the Kushites were predominately C-Group people. He discussses the role of C-Group people in the founding the River Valley Civilizations of Africa and Eurasia.

_______________.(2002). Ancient Afrocentric History and the Genetic Model. In Egypt vs. Greece and the American Aacademy , Ed. By Molefi K. Asante and A. Mazama, pp.121-164. In this article Dr. Winters explains that the founders of civilization in Eurasia, the Americas and Africa were Kushites.

_______________.(2012).Egyptian Language: The Mountains of the Moon, Niger-Congo Speakers and the Origin of Egypt. Kindle Books.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Amun you believe the Negro-Egyptian speakers, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and etc., originated in Northeast Africa. Most linguists posit a West African or Saharan origin for the NC and NS speakers. These researchers agree that there was a later major migration of Black African speakers from Nubia into West Africa.
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Sahara and a secondary staging area in the Nile Valley.


The Niger-Congo people lived in the Highland Region of the Sahara. From here they migrated into the Chad area where they founded the Maa civilization. As the Sahara became more arid the Proto-NC speakers probably migrated into the Nile Valley.

For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65

quote:

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(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara .

McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers

quote:

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Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

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quote:

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pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.

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quote:

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p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

What is important for me in this thread is the common origin of black Africans, Ancient Egyptians and Kushites.

I wouldn't mind if the common origin was in the Sahara but it just doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, it's impossible since the Sahara before the Green Sahara period during the late Pleistocene was an arid desert and inhospitable to life. Although, Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan speakers did eventually settled in the Sahara during the Green sahara period. So before the Sahara was green, Niger-Congo speakers/E-P2 carriers must have come from somewhere else.

While linguists don't always agree about the homeland of any languages. A Northeastern homeland of for all African languages is what makes more sense to me. It is supported by both genetic and linguistic.

Linguistic:

From:Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)

and Genetics:

quote:

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Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa.

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posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Khoisan expanded out of Africa 40+kya, while the Pgymies probably began to exit Africa 22kya.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^Can you remove the large image or reduce it size. It makes the thread unreadable since you need to scroll to read every lines. Thank you.

It's obvious I knew about the previous wet episodes since I specifically refered to the late Pleistocene period just before the Green Sahara period as being an arid desert (and also mentions it in my Green Sahara thread). I wouldn't mind if the common origin of African people (after the OOA migrations) was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Khoisan expanded out of Africa 40+kya, while the Pgymies probably began to exit Africa 22kya.

---

what evidence do you have Pygmies left Africa?

what evidence do you have Khoisan left Africa?

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quote:

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These little blacks are to-day almost everywhere scat-
tered, separated, and often hunted by races larger and
stronger. They are no longer found in certain parts of the
globe which they formerly occupied, and they are disap-
pearing from many others. Nevertheless they have had
in the past their time of prosperity ; they have played a
very real ethnologic role. Finally, they have become the
subject of legends which the poets have collected and
which the most serious classical writers have not disdained
transmitting to us.

---

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posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^Can you remove the large image or reduce it size. It makes the thread unreadable since you need to scroll to read every lines. Thank you.

It's obvious I knew about the previous wet episodes since I specifically refered to the late Pleistocene period just before the Green Sahara period as being an arid desert (and also mentions it in my Green Sahara thread). I wouldn't mind if the common origin of African people (after the OOA migrations) was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

---

You did not present any evidence of cultural activity in Northeast Africa before the "Green Sahara" you presented in your post. Moreover, you make it appear that the Sahara was green only at one time in history. this is false. The Sahara has had various periods of arid and wet environments.

If Negro-Egyptian originated in Northeast Africa you should be able to present the archaeological evidence that support the earliest stages of the Aqualithic and Ounanian cultures in that region.

Provide the specific evidence relating to these events that support a Northeast African origin of the Aqualithic and Ounanian culture.

.

---

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posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^Can you remove the large image or reduce it size. It makes the thread unreadable since you need to scroll to read every lines. Thank you.

It's obvious I knew about the previous wet episodes since I specifically refered to the late Pleistocene period just before the Green Sahara period as being an arid desert (and also mentions it in my Green Sahara thread). I wouldn't mind if the common origin of African people (after the OOA migrations) was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

---

You did not present any evidence of cultural activity in Northeast Africa before the "Green Sahara" you presented in your post. Moreover, you make it appear that the Sahara was green only at one time in history. this is false. The Sahara has had various periods of arid and wet environments.

If Negro-Egyptian originated in Northeast Africa you should be able to present the archaeological evidence that support the earliest stages of the Aqualithic and Ounanian cultures in that region.

Provide the specific evidence relating to these events that support a Northeast African origin of the Aqualithic and Ounanian culture.

.

---

Even the graph you posted, and the graphs I posted in the Green Sahara thread, shows Aqualithic and Ounanian in Northeastern Africa too, whether it was the earliest stage is hard to know for sure at that time depth and lack of archeological works undertaken in Africa but has little importance (as the common origin of African people precedes those cultures). But as I said, my main focus for this thread is the common origin of African populations including Ancient Egyptians and Kushites. I really wouldn't mind it if the location of this common origin was the Sahara but considering the language distribution and the distribution of E-P2 as well as other archaeological facts, like the various arid phases in the Sahara, it seems this common origin was in Northeastern Africa maybe near Sudan/Ethiopia.

---

The date for the presence of these cultures in Northeast Africa important. The earlier date for a culture in an area suggest its point of origin. Please provide specific dates for these cultures in Northeast Africa based on the fact Northeast Africa was arid between 17000-10000 BC.

The settlement sites in the chart below are all in the Sahara, not Northeast Africa.




This chart does not support your premise.
.


.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^Can you remove the large image or reduce it size. It makes the thread unreadable since you need to scroll to read every lines. Thank you.

It's obvious I knew about the previous wet episodes since I specifically refered to the late Pleistocene period just before the Green Sahara period as being an arid desert (and also mentions it in my Green Sahara thread). I wouldn't mind if the common origin of African people (after the OOA migrations) was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

---

You did not present any evidence of cultural activity in Northeast Africa before the "Green Sahara" you presented in your post. Moreover, you make it appear that the Sahara was green only at one time in history. this is false. The Sahara has had various periods of arid and wet environments.

If Negro-Egyptian originated in Northeast Africa you should be able to present the archaeological evidence that support the earliest stages of the Aqualithic and Ounanian cultures in that region.

Provide the specific evidence relating to these events that support a Northeast African origin of the Aqualithic and Ounanian culture.

.

---

Even the graph you posted, and the graphs I posted in the Green Sahara thread, shows Aqualithic and Ounanian in Northeastern Africa too, whether it was the earliest stage is hard to know for sure at that time depth and lack of archeological works undertaken in Africa but has little importance (as the common origin of African people precedes those cultures). But as I said, my main focus for this thread is the common origin of African populations including Ancient Egyptians and Kushites. I really wouldn't mind it if the location of this common origin was the Sahara but considering the language distribution and the distribution of E-P2 as well as other archaeological facts, like the various arid phases in the Sahara, it seems this common origin was in Northeastern Africa maybe near Sudan/Ethiopia.

---

The date for the presence of these cultures in Northeast Africa important. The earlier date for a culture in an area suggest its point of origin. Please provide specific dates for these cultures in Northeast Africa based on the fact Northeast Africa was arid between 17000-10000 BC.

.

---

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posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^Can you remove the large image or reduce it size. It makes the thread unreadable since you need to scroll to read every lines. Thank you.

It's obvious I knew about the previous wet episodes since I specifically refered to the late Pleistocene period just before the Green Sahara period as being an arid desert (and also mentions it in my Green Sahara thread). I wouldn't mind if the common origin of African people (after the OOA migrations) was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

---

You did not present any evidence of cultural activity in Northeast Africa before the "Green Sahara" you presented in your post. Moreover, you make it appear that the Sahara was green only at one time in history. this is false. The Sahara has had various periods of arid and wet environments.

If Negro-Egyptian originated in Northeast Africa you should be able to present the archaeological evidence that support the earliest stages of the Aqualithic and Ounanian cultures in that region.

Provide the specific evidence relating to these events that support a Northeast African origin of the Aqualithic and Ounanian culture.

.

---

Even the graph you posted, and the graphs I posted in the Green Sahara thread, shows Aqualithic and Ounanian in Northeastern Africa too, whether it was the earliest stage is hard to know for sure at that time depth and lack of archeological works undertaken in Africa but has little importance (as the common origin of African people precedes those cultures). But as I said, my main focus for this thread is the common origin of African populations including Ancient Egyptians and Kushites. I really wouldn't mind it if the location of this common origin was the Sahara but considering the language distribution and the distribution of E-P2 as well as other archaeological facts, like the various arid phases in the Sahara, it seems this common origin was in Northeastern Africa maybe near Sudan/Ethiopia.

---

The date for the presence of these cultures in Northeast Africa important. The earlier date for a culture in an area suggest its point of origin. Please provide specific dates for these cultures in Northeast Africa based on the fact Northeast Africa was arid between 17000-10000 BC.

.

---

Only the extreme northeastern part was arid not all of Northeastern Africa like Sudan or Ethiopia toward the south.

You can't be sure about the origin of those cultures more than me, but it has no importance since the common origin of African populations including AEians and Kushites precedes those cultures. Did you get that? It was **before** the aqualithic and ounanian cultures and artifacts existed that African people had their common origin in Northeastern Africa.

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

The map below only outlines activities in Egypt. We know the first rulers of Egypt were the Anu.



Because this population was Anu they could not have been Negro-Egyptian speakers. As you are well aware the Negro-Egyptians moved into Nile Valley from the South.
The Negro-Egyptian speakers prior to 4000 BC,were in the Chad Basin and the Saharan Highlands.




The Negro-Egyptian speakers entered the Nile Valley, from the south and migrated up the Nile, where they conquered the Anu rulers of Egypt.

quote:

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Anu first rulers of Egypt

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posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
If this is true provide the archaeological evidence.

.

---

*You* provide evidence of what you claim. For one, in the period (late Pleistocene) just preceding the Green Sahara period (early-mid Holocene), the Sahara was a desert, so it was inhospitable to life. It can't be the geographic location of the common origin of African people. I'm completely satisfied with the linguistic and genetic evidence I exposed above (the homeland of E-P2 and African languages) and can be read in the source I posted. Which you carefully avoid talking about and provide counter arguments for. I really wouldn't mind if the common origin was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case. For example, the Kordofanian branch of Niger-Congo, the first branch to have diverge from the other Niger-Congo speakers is located in Sudan. Thus the more logical place to locate the homeland of Niger-Congo (also called Niger-Kordofanian) is around Sudan. The genetic and linguistic data combined together show us the location.

Since the common origin of modern African people (including AE and Kushite) precede Ounanian and Aqualithic culture, your point is moot.

And this below is a better map showing the distribution of barbed bone points (associated with Aqualithic) and Ounanian points in Africa. The map in the last post you made doesn't even show northeastern Africa. It's intellectually dishonest of posting them in this context. It's possible according to the map I posted below that the Aqualithic and Ounanian first appeared in the middle of the Sahara. Although there's a lot of barbed points around what seem to be Southern Sudan/Ethiopia too and frankly all over the northern part of Africa especially at the middle and southern belt. Which is something that doesn't contradict my position of the geographical location of the common origin of African people on northeastern Africa since this common origin precedes those cultures (another point you avoid talking about and provide counter arguments for).

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
If this is true provide the archaeological evidence.

.

---

*You* provide evidence of what you claim. For one, in the period (late Pleistocene) just preceding the Green Sahara period (early-mid Holocene), the Sahara was a desert, so it was inhospitable to life. It can't be the geographic location of the common origin of African people. I'm completely satisfied with the linguistic and genetic evidence I exposed above (the homeland of E-P2 and African languages) and can be read in the source I posted. Which you carefully avoid talking about and provide counter arguments for. I really wouldn't mind if the common origin was in the Sahara, but it just doesn't seem to be the case. For example, the Kordofanian branch of Niger-Congo, the first branch to have diverge from the other Niger-Congo speakers is located in Sudan. Thus the more logical place to locate the homeland of Niger-Congo (also called Niger-Kordofanian) is around Sudan. The genetic and linguistic data combined together show us the location.

Since the common origin of modern African people (including AE and Kushite) precede Ounanian and Aqualithic culture, your point is moot.

And this below is a better map showing the distribution of barbed bone points (associated with Aqualithic) and Ounanian points in Africa. The map in the last post you made doesn't even show northeastern Africa. It's intellectually dishonest of posting them in this context. It's possible according to the map I posted below that the Aqualithic and Ounanian first appeared in the middle of the Sahara. Although there's a lot of barbed points around what seem to be Southern Sudan/Ethiopia too and frankly all over the northern part of Africa especially at the middle and southern belt. Which is something that doesn't contradict my position of the geographical location of the common origin of African people on northeastern Africa since this common origin precedes those cultures (another point you avoid talking about and provide counter arguments for).

---

The Ounanian and Aqualithic sites in Northeast Africa are much later than sites in the Sahara and Congo region. If this is true provide the archaeological evidence.

Also Ethiopia was arid between 17k-10k and many of the rivers had dried up. See:

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/new_africa.html
.



Moreover the earliestSaharo-Sudanese wavy line pottery
comes from Niger and date to 10k BP. See page 448:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4xoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=origin+African+Aqualithic&source=bl&ots=cDBmTaRoq7&sig=nkkwZrBCyaFLRW9uAU07mU5vDUU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9CUoVPWGF4ysyATfw IL4AQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCQ#v=snippet&q=Aqualithic&f=false

As you can see even wavy line pottery, your standard for the common origin of Negro-Egyptian speakers, first appears in the Sahara, not Northeast Africa.

Negro-Egyptians originated in the Sahara--not Northeast Africa.

.
.

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posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As you can see even wavy line pottery, your standard for the common origin of Negro-Egyptian speakers, first appears in the Sahara, not Northeast Africa.

---

quote:

---

So here is the summary of the population history and movement of E-P2 carriers. The most common haplogroup among African and African-Americans.

1) E-P2, the common grandfather of most Cushitic, Chadic and Niger-Kongo(-Kordofanian) speakers is born in NorthEastern Africa. He lived in a population which (eventually) had MtDNA haplogroups counterparts L2a, L3bf (L3b, L3f), L3cd (L3c, L3d), L3eijx (L3e, L3i, etc), L0a, etc. Those MtDNA haplogroups are, for example, the common grandmothers and the common grandfather of Yoruba and Somali people. We know Somali have no Bantu/Niger-Congo recent admixtures (they don't have E-M2 nor L3e for example) so they can't share those common grandmothers from recent admixtures with West Africans or related people like Bantu. In fact both E-P2 and those mtDNA grandmothers are shared by the majority of African populations all across Africa. This can be verified for example in the Hirbo study by looking at the table with Y-DNA and MtDNA frequencies per populations.

As a side note, it doesn't matter if L2a for example originate in Eastern Africa or not (I don't even remember). What is important is that it was part of the E-P2 population and is shared by most African populations including Somali and Yoruba, so Cushitic, Chadic and Niger-Congo (kordofanian) speakers.

2) Then E-P2 carriers migrate within Eastern Africa and in the Sahara and eventually develop E-M2 in the west and E-M215 in the East, after having migrated in different direction. Eastern Africa was also part of the Green Sahara culture which goes from the Atlantic to the Nile and Red Sea. The Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery culture I often mention in other threads and in the links posted in my first original post in this thread.

3) When the Sahara dries up again after the Green Sahara period. E-P2 carriers now (or eventually) E-M2 carriers migrate away in many direction, notably in Western Africa, in search of greener pasture, from where they eventually occupy the greater part of Africa through further migrations within Western Africa and the Bantu migrations. Some E-P2 carriers, along A and B carriers, also migrate toward the Nile also in search of greener pastures.

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posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As you can see even wavy line pottery, your standard for the common origin of Negro-Egyptian speakers, first appears in the Sahara, not Northeast Africa.

---

This is a characterization of my point of view. Yes, the Green Saharan culture (and the wavy-line pottery culture) is a common past culture among most modern African people (beside Aka-Mbuti and Khoisan related people) and is very important historically, but this is at a time period AFTER the common linguistic and genetic origin of most African people (the greater part of their ancestry) in Northeastern Africa.

The wavy-line pottery culture is part of my point number 2 posted above and quoted below:

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As you can see even wavy line pottery, your standard for the common origin of Negro-Egyptian speakers, first appears in the Sahara, not Northeast Africa.

---

This is a characterization of my point of view.

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posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
CLyde says:
Keita does not believe it is possible to reconstruct Paleo-African. Although this is his opinion you can reconstruct Paleo-Dravido-African culture terms.

Just so the work of Keita is not misrepresented,
most of the links you give in support of the above
are of your own writings. Can you cite specifically
where Keita talks about Paleo-Dravido-African terms?
Not your paraphrasing, but a specific quote by Keita
to this end?

---

LOL. You never read. Read the last sentence.




Also we were talking about Paleo-African.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^It's obvious Keita believe it is possible to reconstruct such Paleo-African language (the language of the common African E-P2 grandfather) since he's the one mentioning it (see quote above ). Dr. Winters is being ridiculous here. While not mainstream linguistic yet and written mostly in French (and thus missed by Keita) Obenga did find linguistically such Paleo-African language before Keita's quote and called it the Negro-Egyptian/African-Egyptian language phylum.

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Read the last sentence Keita does not believe you can reconstruct paleo-African.

.



.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^You must be kidding me. You don't know what the word 'current' means or what? Here's the full quote (his point number 5 in the book):

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Yes I know what current means. It means that now Keita feels you can not reconstruct Paleo-African languages.

Read the last sentence Keita does not believe you can reconstruct paleo-African.

.


.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Truthcentric:
The PN2 clade does suggest a somewhat close fraternal link between Egyptian, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo-speaking African peoples. Now combine that genetic data with linguistic reports of affinity between Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan and Diop's argument for a relationship between Niger-Congo and Afrasan.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Alternatively, Horners may have recently acquired a major Eurasian genetic component not present in Africa back in distant antiquity.

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quote:

---

In my personal speculation, Diop was not so off the mark when he argued that the majority of Saharo-Tropical African people descend from Nile Valley inhabitants. He may not have projected that common ancestry far back enough (dating it to historical antiquity rather than sometime in the Late Stone Age), but he could still have gotten the basic movements right.

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quote:

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The scenario I envision is that Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Egyptian peoples can all trace their heritage to Late Stone Age peoples living somewhere around the Nile area.

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Here's a post from another thread that is related to the subject of this thread:

True. Most African populations (beside Aka-Mbuti-Twa like people) have their common origin in Northeastern Africa between the time of the OOA migrations of non-African and the foundation of Ancient Egypt.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Here's a post from another thread that is related to the subject of this thread:

True. Most African populations (beside Aka-Mbuti-Twa like people) have their common origin in Northeastern Africa between the time of the OOA migrations of non-African and the foundation of Ancient Egypt.

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You keep saying these populations originated in Northeast Africa but you have not provided any proof to support your claim.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] The E clades probably originated in Saharan Africa.This is based on the fact that the Niger-Congo people carry this haplogroup at high frequencies.[qb]

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
[qb] Here's a post from another thread that is related to the subject of this thread:

True. Most African populations (beside Aka-Mbuti-Twa like people) have their common origin in Northeastern Africa between the time of the OOA migrations of non-African and the foundation of Ancient Egypt.

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You keep saying these populations originated in Northeast Africa but you have not provided any proof to support your claim.

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I have provided enough proof above to provide the most probable location but you refuse to take them into account (the geographic origin of E-P2 and the origin of all African language families), but technically it doesn't really matter where exactly they originated (beside to increase our scientific knowledge). What is more interesting is realizing that most African populations namely Niger-Kordofanian, Cushitic and Chadic speakers are from the same haplogroup (E-P2) for over 80% of their population.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The E clades probably originated in Saharan Africa.This is based on the fact that the Niger-Congo people carry this haplogroup at high frequencies.[qb]

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It's true that Niger-Congo(Niger-Kordofanian) speakers carry this haplogroup in great frequencies but so does Cushitic and Chadic speakers who usually inhabit the Northeastern part of Africa. Northeastern Africa also has a greater diversity of that haplogroup.

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Abstract
Archeological and paleontological evidences point to East Africa as the likely area of early evolution of modern humans. Genetic studies also indicate that populations from the region often contain, but not exclusively, representatives of the more basal clades of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome phylogenies. Most Y-chromosome haplogroup diversity in Africa, however, is present within macrohaplogroup E that seem to have appeared 21 000–32 000 YBP somewhere between the Red Sea and Lake Chad. The combined analysis of 17 bi-allelic markers in 1214 Y chromosomes together with cultural background of 49 populations displayed in various metrics: network, multidimensional scaling, principal component analysis and neighbor-joining plots, indicate a major contribution of East African populations to the foundation of the macrohaplogroup, suggesting a diversification that predates the appearance of some cultural traits and the subsequent expansion that is more associated with the cultural and linguistic diversity witnessed today. The proto-Afro-Asiatic group carrying the E-P2 mutation may have appeared at this point in time and subsequently gave rise to the different major population groups including current speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralist populations.

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The subclades of the network some of which are associated with the practice of pastoralism are most likely to have taken place in the Sahara, among an early population that spoke ancestral language common to both Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic speakers, although it is yet to be determined whether pastoralism was an original culture to Nilo-Saharan speakers, a cultural acquisition or vice versa; and an interesting notion to entertain in the light of the proposition that pastoralism may be quite an antiquated event in human history.17 Pushing the dates of the event associated with the origin and spread of pastoralism to a proposed 12 000–22 000 YBP, as suggested by the network dating, will solve the matter spontaneously as the language differences would not have appeared by then and an original pastoralist ancestral group with a common culture and language50 is a plausible scenario to entertain. Such dates will accommodate both the Semitic/pastoralism-associated expansion and the introduction of Bos taurus to Europe from North East Africa or Middle East.55 The network result put North African populations like the Saharawi, Morocco Berbers and Arabs in a separate cluster. Given the proposed origin of Maghreb ancestors56, 57, 58, 59 in North Africa, our network dating suggested a divergence of North Western African populations from Eastern African as early as 32 000 YBP, which is close to the estimated dates to the origin of E-P2 macrohaplogroup.30, 60 It can be further inferred that the high frequency of E-M81 in North Africa and its association to the Berber-speaking populations25, 30, 32, 60, 61 may have occurred after the splitting of that early group, leading to local differentiation and flow of some markers as far as Southern Europe.30, 60, 62

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There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin. More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples.

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Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Still it's hard to believe all the current genetic data on the 12th, 18th and 20th
dynasties, indicating mostly sub-Saharan African ethnic affiliations, is all a big coincidence

^^We know archaeological, skeletal and other data is
in place on these dynasties, but are you referring to
the DNATribes studies on them as far as genetic data?

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most people know about the OOA migrations. A small group of people left Africa around 65 000 years ago and formed the basal ancestral group of all non-Africans.

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Human genetic variation particularly in Africa is still poorly understood. This is despite a consensus on the large African effective population size compared to populations from other continents. Based on sequencing of the mitochondrial Cytochrome C Oxidase subunit II (MT-CO2), and genome wide microsatellite data we observe evidence suggesting the effective size (Ne) of humans to be larger than the current estimates, with a foci of increased genetic diversity in east Africa, and a population size of east Africans being at least 2-6 fold larger than other populations. Both phylogenetic and network analysis indicate that east Africans possess more ancestral lineages in comparison to various continental populations placing them at the root of the human evolutionary tree. Our results also affirm east Africa as the likely spot from which migration towards Asia has taken place. The study reflects the spectacular level of sequence variation within east Africans in comparison to the global sample, and appeals for further studies that may contribute towards filling the existing gaps in the database. The implication of these data to current genomic research, as well as the need to carry out defined studies of human genetic variation that includes more African populations; particularly east Africans is paramount.

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Table 1 shows the population parameters and selective neutrality test (Tajima’s D) based on MT-CO2 variation of all continental groups, mean values and test of significance for the obtained values. Tajima’s D (Table 1) scored negative values consistent with human expansion within and outside of Africa (or exchange of alleles between neighboring demes, see discussion below) with satisfactory statistical scores. The transition to transversion ratio of 2:1 in our reported Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) is consistent with being at the root of the gene tree and with neutral evolution distance based analysis using FST for mtDNA sequences and RST for microsatellite data were carried out for subsequent MDS plotting and a population by population correlation comparison using Mantel Test. The result showed no correlation with a P value of 0.66 similar to comparison between mitochondria and Y chromosome variations reported earlier [16].

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The third cluster (C), includes members of almost all world populations particularly non-Africans who share a major haplo- type that seems to have originated within an east African gene pool (Table S1 and Figure 3).

[...]

Mutations and Haplotypes Frequencies in the MT-CO2

The sheer number of haplotypes, a basic measurement of genetic diversity, is also taken as an indication of Ne. As mitochondria are non-recombining the number of mutations and haplotypes is quite correlated. In the MT-CO2 sequence 68 haplotypes were estimated using Arlequin ver3.11 and assigned numbers from 1 to 68. Haplotype relative and absolute frequencies in the studied populations were also calculated. Strikingly, of the total 68 haplotypes, 43 occurred solely in east Africa (Table S1) of which 25 were in Sudanese, 9 in Eritreans and 5 in Ugandans and one Kenyan. The rest of the haplotypes were derived from or included east Africans with exception of 13 haplotypes, 4 in Africa 2 in Australia, 3 in Europe 1 in Arabia 1 America/Africa and 1 Europe/Africa. Of the 42 haplotype defining mutations (Table S2) in Sudanese and Eritreans 11 (26.2%) were non-synonymous (replacements) occurring in trans-membrane domain of COII protein while 31 (73.8%) were synonymous with transitions representing the majority of the mutations. Out of the 42 mutations (Table S2), 31 were previously reported in the literature and 11 were novel. All mutations in Ugandan MT-CO2 samples are synonymous and reported at http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/422​1). All published haplogroups associated with the mutations are indicated in Table S2.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most people know about the OOA migrations. A small group of people left Africa around 65 000 years ago and formed the basal ancestral group of all non-Africans.

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The above is incorrect. This was/ is considered the first OoA. There have been many afterwards. This there are many African basals.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


Most people know about the OOA migrations. A small group of people left Africa around 65 000 years ago and formed the basal ancestral group of all non-Africans.

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The above is incorrect. This was/ is considered the first OoA. There have been many afterwards. This there are many African basals.

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Yes, further more I am of the belief that not only were there multiple migrations out of Africa but that there was back-and-forth as well to the point that the true place of origin for many lineages may be obfuscated. This is the reason why certain allegedly Eurasian lineages like hg J in the Y chromosome or N1 in mitochondria may have multiple founders on both sides of the Red Sea.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |