posted
The university of Melbourne does a reconstruction of an Egyptian mummy and says they used "modern Egyptians" as the basis for the facial reconstruction....
quote: Although estimated to have been between 18 and 25 years old at the time of death, just how old Meritamun was now also required a little educated guesswork. Davey estimates she lived sometime between 1500 BCE and 331 BCE, and the fine linen of her bandages suggests that the woman was likely from a family of high status. A sample of tissue from the head is currently undergoing radiocarbon dating, which should help narrow that window of time.
...
The face itself, reconstructed by forensic sculptor Jennifer Mann (as seen in the video above), is the most striking outcome of that CT scan. With the 3D-printed skull as the base, the flesh was filled in using a series of markers that indicate how deep the tissue likely was at key points around the face, based on generalized data of the population of modern Egypt.
Soft areas like the nose and ears were reconstructed based on similar averages, as well as dimensions extruded out from the nasal cavity. To top it off, Meritamun's hair was based on that of Lady Rai, a mummy on display in Cairo.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The university of Melbourne does a reconstruction of an Egyptian mummy and says they used "modern Egyptians" as the basis for the facial reconstruction....
That only applies to
quote:
Soft areas like the nose and ears were reconstructed based on similar averages, as well as dimensions extruded out from the nasal cavity.
quote: she lived sometime between 1500 BCE and 331 BCE,
that is a long range, from New Kingdom to Late period
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posted
The researchers say the mummy's real name was lost long ago, so they've named her Meritamun, which means 'beloved of the god Amun.'
Although it's not uncommon to see lighter skinned women depicted in the Egyptian art of the nobility the lioness productions team has created this darker reconstruction above for comparison, no change to the features. She may or may not have been this dark in real life
Anthropoid coffin of Ahmose Meritamun, wife of Amenhotep I (not the same Meritamun)
Coffin, Coffin Board and Mummy of Tahat, Twenty-first Dynasty, ca. 1070-946 B.C. Painted wood, linen, and human remains.
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quote:The reconstruction was then cast in a polyurethane resin and painted. The researchers have taken a middle course in the long-running debate on what the predominant skin colour of ancient Egyptians may have been, choosing a dark olive hue. The finishing touch was to reconstruct her hair, which has been modelled on that of an Egyptian woman, Lady Rai, who lived around 1570-1530 BCE and whose mummified body is now in the Egypt Museum in Cairo. She wears her hair in tightly-plaited thin braids either side of her head. For the Meritamun reconstruction, replicating Lady Rai’s hair was an all-day job for a Melbourne African hair salon.
posted
Does it even matter what the skin hue is? They were not Europeans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans. Based upon latitude and place of origin they would be very dark/black (as depicted in some of their artwork) and brown skin based their geographic latitude. They were NOT Europeans. They cultural, religious, genetic, archaeological inception, etc were all African. Why even have a debate? Only an ignorant fool and dogged delusional racist will not get through their thick skulls. That debate is long over!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Does it even matter what the skin hue is? They were not Europeans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans. Based upon latitude and place of origin they would be very dark/black (as depicted in some of their artwork) and brown skin based their geographic latitude. They were NOT Europeans. They cultural, religious, genetic, archaeological inception, etc were all African. Why even have a debate? Only an ignorant fool and dogged delusional racist will not get through their thick skulls. That debate is long over!!!
They said they had a "debate" over the color complexion. Meritamun's origin is at Deir el-Medina. Which is upper Egypt. How come they did not take an upper Egyptian woman was a model?
Photo by Olaf Tausch CC Attribution 3.0 Unported - Ahmose
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There are several Meritamuns in Egyptian history.
Again, the researchers say the mummy's real name was lost, they named her Meritamun.
How many is many?
It doesn't matter she was named that by the researchers. The name is arbitrary. At least 3-4 real people had that name but it's irreleavnt
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Does it even matter what the skin hue is? They were not Europeans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans.
why do you bring up Europeans?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Does it even matter what the skin hue is? They were not Europeans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans. Based upon latitude and place of origin they would be very dark/black (as depicted in some of their artwork) and brown skin based their geographic latitude. They were NOT Europeans. They cultural, religious, genetic, archaeological inception, etc were all African. Why even have a debate? Only an ignorant fool and dogged delusional racist will not get through their thick skulls. That debate is long over!!!
The only gripe I have is with the base model (contemporary Egyptians) they used as a reference for the reconstruction. I mean lets say this mummy was buried 1200BC? your going to use a population with considerable OOA admixture to represent her? either way, they just wanted to be safe, after all it is a business. her skin color here is pretty much on the darkside of the modern north African spectrum but her features are ambiguous so that she can "technically" be & not be "black" depending on who's observing.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Does it even matter what the skin hue is? They were not Europeans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans. Based upon latitude and place of origin they would be very dark/black (as depicted in some of their artwork) and brown skin based their geographic latitude. They were NOT Europeans. They cultural, religious, genetic, archaeological inception, etc were all African. Why even have a debate? Only an ignorant fool and dogged delusional racist will not get through their thick skulls. That debate is long over!!!
The only gripe I have is with the base model (contemporary Egyptians) they used as a reference for the reconstruction. I mean lets say this mummy was buried 1200BC? your going to use a population with considerable OOA admixture to represent her? either way, they just wanted to be safe, after all it is a business. her skin color here is pretty much on the darkside of the modern north African spectrum but her features are ambiguous so that she can "technically" be & not be "black" depending on who's observing.
"her skin color here is pretty much on the darkside of the modern north African spectrum".
Was that a joke? The skin color is on the lightside of North Africans spectrum. Not unusual, thou.
Women from Luxor, Deir el-Medina.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Keep in mind. Modern Egyptians are the MOST admixed of ALL North Africans even more than the whitest Tunisian. Sources cited. So picture spamming light and dark skin modern Egyptians does not prove anything.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Keep in mind. Modern Egyptians are the MOST admixed of ALL North Africans even more than the whitest Tunisian. Sources cited. So picture spamming light and dark skin modern Egyptians does not prove anything.
This is about modern-day Egyptians. The reconstruction was based on the color complexion of "modern-day Egyptians". And yes, there is admixture, which makes it more complex. More so in the North than in the South. The specimen is from Luxor, Deir el-Medina.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
It is not a study, it is from a database of ACTUAL samples across taken across North Africa and Arabia/Turkey. I will post when I am at another computer where I can pull it up easily. Modern Egyptians are as much as 20% Turkish. (Lioness knows this! – They can data mine and pull it up quickly). Tunisians are at most 2-3% foreign ancestry. In fact Tunisians and Saharawis are the purest Africans found in North Africa. Virtually zero European ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Can you refer me to the source of that study.
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posted
if they wanted to take a guess maybe they could have/ should have gone with this. Me
quote: had they ran a melanin dosage test they could have narrowed it down better, in any case the woman still falls with in the range of a lot of self identified modern black people, their choice was arbitrary.
They did some good forensic science but fudged her melanin content that could have give a more accurate picture of the individual not necessarily the overall population for we vary among ourselves even with in the same family. Anyone remember her^.
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posted
There is no forensic standard test called "melanin dosage".
You need to look into forensic science, see what the actual current procedures are and then see how they can or cannot be used on ancient mummies, depending on the condition of specimens. We have a new member who may have some training in this area
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There is no forensic standard test called "melanin dosage".
You need to look into forensic science, see what the actual current procedures are and then see how they can or cannot be used on ancient mummies, depending on the condition of specimens. We have a new member who may have some training in this area
LOL Clown.
Melanin Dosage Tests: Ancient Egyptians
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
-- A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2 Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13 " Materials and Methods
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: if they wanted to take a guess maybe they could have/ should have gone with this. Me
quote: had they ran a melanin dosage test they could have narrowed it down better, in any case the woman still falls with in the range of a lot of self identified modern black people, their choice was arbitrary.
They did some good forensic science but fudged her melanin content that could have give a more accurate picture of the individual not necessarily the overall population for we vary among ourselves even with in the same family. Anyone remember her^.
That is indeed the most common in the south, till this day.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Keep in mind. Modern Egyptians are the MOST admixed of ALL North Africans even more than the whitest Tunisian. Sources cited. So picture spamming light and dark skin modern Egyptians does not prove anything.
This is about modern-day Egyptians. The reconstruction was based on the color complexion of "modern-day Egyptians". And yes, there is admixture, which makes it more complex. More so in the North than in the South. The specimen is from Luxor, Deir el-Medina.
Exactly the point. "Modern day Egyptians" are not the same populations with the same exact phenotype variety and skin coloration as a whole as ancient Egyptians. This is just them using it as an excuse to portray the female with lighter skin completion. But if you look at the actual skull it has STRONG prognathism. That is why the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone. If they wanted to be accurate they would have looked at how many "modern Egyptians" have such prognathism and what is the average skin complexion of those people? Or they could have looked at what populations in the region most closely resemble the skeletal features of the skull and used them as the basis for the skin complexion, but they didn't. That is IF they wanted to be scientifically accurate. But they don't. They want to be subjective so they can keep pushing their nonsense agenda of trying to claim the AE were overall lighter skinned people throughout all of their history just like "modern Egyptians".
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The researchers say the mummy's real name was lost long ago, so they've named her Meritamun, which means 'beloved of the god Amun.'
Although it's not uncommon to see lighter skinned women depicted in the Egyptian art of the nobility the lioness productions team has created this darker reconstruction above for comparison, no change to the features. She may or may not have been this dark in real life
Anthropoid coffin of Ahmose Meritamun, wife of Amenhotep I (not the same Meritamun)
Coffin, Coffin Board and Mummy of Tahat, Twenty-first Dynasty, ca. 1070-946 B.C. Painted wood, linen, and human remains.
Just an fyi you forgot her ears haha
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Reconstructed from a mummified head dating back at least two millennia, the fine-featured ancient Egyptian face looks out from an artist’s studio in the forested hills of rural Victoria.
Ancient Egypt has fascinated everyone from conquerors like Alexander the Great and Napoleon to movie directors chasing cursed mummies and lost treasures. That same fascination is now driving a unique research and teaching collaboration to test the limits of technology and learn all we can about an ancient Egyptian whose head has been preserved, largely unknown, for almost 100 years at the University of Melbourne.
It is a multi-disciplinary project with the Faculty of Medicine, Dentistry and Health Sciences that combines medical research, forensic science, computerised tomographic (CT) scanning, 3D printing, Egyptology and art. The team has already produced a reconstruction of the head of an 18 to 25-year-old woman who lived at least 2000 years ago that they named Meritamun, which means beloved of the god Amun. But her serene face is only the start of a journey to answer questions about how she may have died, what diseases she had, when she lived, where she was from, and even what she ate.
The idea of the project is to take this relic and, in a sense, bring her back to life by using all the new technology,” says Dr Varsha Pilbrow, a biological anthropologist who teaches anatomy at the University’s Department of Anatomy and Neuroscience.
“This way she can become much more than a fascinating object to be put on display. Through her, students will be able to learn how to diagnose pathology marked on our anatomy, and learn how whole population groups can be affected by the environments in which they live.”
posted
Is it me or did they botch aspects of her nose and upper face?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That is why the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone.
So, let me get this right. You engaged in a 28 page discussion filled with rants, only to casually abandon everything you said you stood for? Remember what you said. You said that you acknowledge no definition of 'black' other than the one that describes a level of skin pigmentation. Someone has some 'splainin to do.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Is it me or did they botch aspects of her nose and upper face?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That is why the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone.
So, let me get this right. You engaged in a 28 page discussion filled with rants, only to casually abandon everything you said you stood for? Remember what you said. You said that you acknowledge no definition of 'black' other than the one that describes a level of skin pigmentation. Someone has some 'splainin to do.
I was just about to comment on the same exact things. Her skin color within itself isn't the thing that concerns me most. Its the nose and other aspects of soft tissue distribution. around below her zygomatic arch as well as the padding done to the chin. ...did I mention, that nose though? smh?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Is it me or did they botch aspects of her nose and upper face?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That is why the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone.
So, let me get this right. You engaged in a 28 page discussion filled with rants, only to casually abandon everything you said you stood for? Remember what you said. You said that you acknowledge no definition of 'black' other than the one that describes a level of skin pigmentation. Someone has some 'splainin to do.
I was just about to comment on the same exact things. Her skin color within itself isn't the thing that concerns me most. Its the nose and other aspects of soft tissue distribution. around below her zygomatic arch as well as the padding done to the chin. ...did I mention, that nose though? smh?
First of all Swenet did not explain why he thinks they may have they botched aspects of her nose and upper face.
Also you mentioned the nose twice but did not say what you think is wrong with it.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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if you look at the actual skull it has STRONG prognathism.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
"Modern day Egyptians" are not the same populations with the same exact phenotype variety and skin coloration as a whole as ancient Egyptians. This is just them using it as an excuse to portray the female with lighter skin completion.
Have you seen some of the Egyptian art where women are lighter? It's not uncommon
Below is the actual mummy head of the above, the skull was made by computer scanning. One cannot assume the color of the mummy head after 2000 years, the oxidation and the chemistry of the embalming techniques reflects the actual skin color of when she was alive. But that is not what we a re looking at here, below if you look up close, the mummy head is also still wrapped in the bandages. The skull shown before was done by scanning and then using 3D printing.
And after having shown the above female Egyptians sometimes depicted with light skin, the researchers and forensic artists seem to have guessed at what her original skin tone was. But since there are also plenty of Egyptian females depicted with darker skin, if they are going to guess I think they should be fair and sometimes guess darker. These reconstructions seems to always be biased toward the lighter end. It's not fair
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Is it me or did they botch aspects of her nose and upper face?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: That is why the reconstruction has a strong "black African look" with a light skin tone.
So, let me get this right. You engaged in a 28 page discussion filled with rants, only to casually abandon everything you said you stood for? Remember what you said. You said that you acknowledge no definition of 'black' other than the one that describes a level of skin pigmentation. Someone has some 'splainin to do.
I was just about to comment on the same exact things. Her skin color within itself isn't the thing that concerns me most. Its the nose and other aspects of soft tissue distribution. around below her zygomatic arch as well as the padding done to the chin. ...did I mention, that nose though? smh?
It seems to me that her nose should be more similar to Meresamun's reconstruction, not more similar to Tut's nose in his NG reconstruction. Her upper lip should also be longer (i.e. in the area from her nostrils to her mouth). This relatively longer upper lip is a characteristic of many ancient Egyptians (see the mummy Brada Anansi posted, for instance, where it's very pronounced), as some anthropologists have pointed out.
Some of the discrepancies I see between her remains and the reconstruction.
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posted
Honestly the woman looks like she would fit in with African American women here in the states despite her lighter skin color, honestly her skin looks unfinished which is probably what the team was aiming for to avoid pissing off the wrong group...anyway..
Some more Mummy Reconstructions..
Amunet
She looks very Egyptian IMO
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Who was originally buried in the coffin? (of Amunet) The coffin was for the “House Mistress Neskhonspakhered, daughter of the Doorkeeper of Amun Bakakhonsu and the House Mistress Heres.” She lived and died during the 25th dynasty, circa 760 B.C. to 656 B.C.
Nothing else is known of Neskhonspakhered, except that the outer coffin, in which this coffin would have been placed, is in the collections of the British Museum.
Amunet (also spelled Amonet or Amaunet) was a primordial goddess in Ancient Egyptian religion. She is a member of the Ogdoad and the consort of Amun.
Her name, meaning "the female hidden one", was simply the feminine form of Amun's own name. It is possible that she was never an independent deity, as the first mention of either of them is in a pair
did they get the features right?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Here's the VIDEO of the reconstruction conducted by white blond lady
What does her skin color and of all silly things her hair color have to do with anything?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: did they get the features right?
Im sure they did but why not ask the team themselves..?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: she was going against her white supremacist managers
I see you're just being silly here, but you do realize the lady who made the most darkest reconstruction, the Nefetiti one, which most Euronuts were deeply upset about was also a white woman. with Red Hair...which is more exclusive to whites than blondness..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
I was talking about this, did they get the features right here?
Im not sure who you mean by "They" but if you mean the Ancient Egyptians then Id say yes, considering they were the primary source material and artists.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It seems to me that her nose should be more similar to Meresamun's reconstruction, not more similar to Tut's nose in his NG reconstruction. Her upper lip should also be longer (i.e. in the area from her nostrils to her mouth). This relatively longer upper lip is a characteristic of many ancient Egyptians (see the mummy Brada Anansi posted, for instance, where it's very pronounced), as some anthropologists have pointed out.
Some of the discrepancies I see between her remains and the reconstruction.
In this case I know that they used egyptians as samples but in general how do they determine the shapes of the noses? In the case of meresamun as well as this particular case and others they tend to give the subjects a bit of an "inferior curve," bringing the Apex of the nose low making the nostrils more or less "invisible" from an Anterior view. Both instances resolve in a "hook/beak like" shaped nose in profile.. What's alarming is that the Aegyptian's seemed to have had a grasp on nose shape variation in their casual depictions... for the most part even in their "reconstructed" stylized depictions the apex is higher or closer to the bridge of the nose to where the nostrils are veiwable from the front.
Lol ...thinking about it, change the nose increase the size of the upper lip and darken the skin, and you create Angela basset lmao.
on topic though; In my opinion we should take their self identification in relation to other groups drawn more into consideration. The only way I know of to partially determine nose shape (in complete absence of soft tissue & cartilage) would be via Genetics .
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posted
^ Well if it makes you feel better, I'm personally not a fan of Amunet reconstruction either... Is there a link to more pics of the cadaver?
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