posted
I would like to know if I'm off base or not with these assumptions? Just based on pictures, in comparison and contrast.
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote: I know that Ancient Egyptian was a multi-ethnic African group, (Beja, Afar, Siwa, Sa'idi...etc) coming from the South, into Upper Egypt and further North. In the Nile Valley.
Thanks in advance...
(Side note; I didn't really get answers from the thread I was looking at on this similar question. It kind of went down a rabbit hole.)
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posted
Some of my questions are within the photo text themselves. But I guess the'dominate question would be, why do people use these images:
quote:
quote:
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To say that these were the so-called "Nubians" or Kushites. When "Nubians" wasn't one group, but many ethnic African groups put under a singular label.
When to my eye's they resemble more the Dinka/Nuer people's from Sudan further South I.e. the type of dress and headcap/hair display doesn't look like the people's currently living in Upper Egypt. That are labelled "Nubian", despite the Egyptians calling those that reside in Aswan region of the Nile, Ta-Seti (Land of Bow) or are they not the same group from before and after state unification? Despite looking to be a mix between Ta-Seti and Sa'idi.
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posted
The way I see it, these would best represent the population of Wawat ("Lower Nubia", or the C-Group as archaeologists know them) during dynastic times. Notice that, despite having darker skin, their features are not that different from their Egyptian neighbors.
And these would be the people of Kush, or "Upper Nubia". Note the Egyptianesque costumes.
I suspect the people you see depicted wearing animal-hide loincloths might represent pastoralist communities from further south in the Sudan. In which case, they wouldn't really be ethnic "Nubians" or Kushites.
posted
The word 'Sa'idi' simply means southerner as a general term for Upper or southern Egyptian just as the word 'Bahari' means northerner as a general term for Lower or northern Egyptian.
The words themselves are merely geographic and NOT ethnic. Hence a Sa'idi can include Arabs as well as Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians though more occasionally Nubians.
To Brandon: The Egyptians listed many groups that we today call 'Nubians' the problem is trying to match each name with an artistic depiction. For example I myself am more familiar with the depictions of Kushites than I am with the Wawati people.
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Some of my questions are within the photo text themselves. But I guess the'dominate question would be, why do people use these images:
The reason that that people post those images is that the Egyptians had called them Kushities in the texts
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from the " tomb of Tyanen (an Egyptian officer (d. 1410 B.C.)"
There is no evidence I can see that these figures are Nubians instead of Egyptians.
quote:
Scott T. Carroll assitant professor, Dept of History, Gordon College from an essay, Wrestling In Ancient Nubia
The earliest portrayal of Nubian wrestlers is found on a wall painting from the tomb of Tyanen, an Egyptian officer (d. 1410 B.C.)4 (See Figure 1). The picture shows five men marching together, with the last man carrying a standard which has two wrestlers on it. All but one of the men have Nubian physical characteristics. The contrast between the Nubian wrestlers’ girth and the trim Egyptian, is pronounced
Tomb of Tyanen (Tjeneny )
These remarks by Scott T. Carroll the effect that they are Nubian due to girth vs trim etc. are not credible in my opinion, the remarks not proving they are Nubians .
.
Comparatively:
Medinet Habu / Wrestling / Relief.West Thebes (Upper Egypt), Medinet Habu, Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III (New Kingdom, 20th Dynasty, c. 1160/1155 BC), First Court, South Hall.
Ceremonial mock combat between wrestlers and stick fighters. Detail: A Nubian wrestling with an Egyptian.
Military Musicians Showing Nubian and Egyptian Styles Artist:Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period:New Kingdom Dynasty:Dynasty 18 Reign:reign of Thutmose IV Date:ca. 1400–1390 B.C. Geography:From Egypt, Upper Egypt, Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Tjeneny (TT 74) Medium:Tempera on paper Facsimile Tomb of Tjeneny
the figures at right, after the drummer might be Egyptian. They used the two feather style in another scene at the festival of Min, mistaken for Libyans sometimes who also had a similar two feather style. The Nubians typically had the one feather. I think there is a lot of speculation in some of these captions. Accompanying Egyptian texts might clarify but is not always there UPDATE: I didn't notice some rare two feathered Kushites at the front of the tomb of Huy Nubian tribute bowing down. They have hoop earrings and don't resemble the above figures from Tjeneny. In the same scene in the back are other Kushites, prisoners with the more common one feather
Fragment of a relief : Nubian mercenaries From Deir el-Bahri, Western Thebes. 18th dynasty, 1479-1458 BC. Limestone.
This is also 18th dynasty,They might be Kushite bowman. I don't see the hoop earrings, I'm not 100% convinced. Further research needed to see if a Nubian bow here can be distinguished from an Egyptian bow maybe
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The word 'Sa'idi' simply means southerner as a general term for Upper or southern Egyptian just as the word 'Bahari' means northerner as a general term for Lower or northern Egyptian.
The words themselves are merely geographic and NOT ethnic. Hence a Sa'idi can include Arabs as well as Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians though more occasionally Nubians.
To Brandon: The Egyptians listed many groups that we today call 'Nubians' the problem is trying to match each name with an artistic depiction. For example I myself am more familiar with the depictions of Kushites than I am with the Wawati people.
So words like Sa'idi are geographic terms in reference to locations of where a certain group came from, North or South, and they could be Arab or other? Interesting.
Meaning, I should call indigenous Egyptians, Baladi? Does that word describe one ethnic group?
Furthermore, do we know what the ancient Baladi called those from "Lower Nubia" and "Upper Nubia"? Were they all Kushites? Or just those within "Lower Nubia"? Do those that reside in Aswan today relate more to Kushites, than to Baladi?
Overall, what I'm getting from this in a general sense is that there's still confusion on whom these depictions may represent directly? In relation to which ethnic group or their names in ancient times.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
There is no evidence I can see that these figures are Nubians instead of Egyptians.
.............................
These remarks by Scott T. Carroll the effect that they are Nubian due to girth vs trim etc. are not credible in my opinion, the remarks not proving they are Nubians ..............................
The figures at right, after the drummer might be Egyptian. They used the two feather style in another scene at the festival of Min, mistaken for Libyans sometimes who also had a similar two feather style. The Nubians typically had the one feather. I think there is a lot of speculation in some of these captions.
Accompanying Egyptian texts might clarify but is not always there
...................
This is also 18th dynasty, They might be Kushite bowman. I don't see the hoop earrings, I'm not 100% convinced. Further research needed to see if a Nubian bow here can be distinguished from an Egyptian bow maybe
So essentially most of these descriptions may be more are less arbitrary? Since they don't (can't) represent a pure Ancient Egyptian perspective. When trying to interpret these depictions, since they could be all be Egyptian in that case.
But when Egyptian's referred to them as "Nubian", they most likely meant the Dinka/Nuer, "Upper Nubia", right? Instead of the "Lower Nubia" group who are more associated with the C-Group/A-group cultures thus bringing forth the "Nubian" archers or bowman.
..............................
I guess my next dominate question would be, what should we call the different ethnic groups that comprised the Upper Egypt civilized state both past and present?
Would it be right to refer to the Beja as one of those early groups? Or a mixing between Custhic groups, Nilotic groups and another Group in the Nile Valley?
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: So essentially most of these descriptions may be more are less arbitrary? Since they don't (can't) represent a pure Ancient Egyptian perspective. When trying to interpret these depictions, since they could be all be Egyptian in that case.
No, not at all. Everything is on a case by case basis. Each scene has to be looked at individually. You can't jsut put all these pictures together as a clump
You had two groups of figures from the Tomb of Tjeneny (Tyanen) one wrestlers, the other had some military led by a couple of trumpeters. This tomb is not talked about much. Tjeneny is some obscure official. The ethnicity of these two images is uncertain in my opinion. I think they are Egyptian but am not sure.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
But when Egyptian's referred to them as "Nubian", they most likely meant the Dinka/Nuer, "Upper Nubia", right?
Look at the pictures One Third African put up those are all clearly Kushites and Nehesy (Egyptian word for Nubian). Also connecting modern Nuba, Dinka, Beja it's speculation if they are directly related. 18th dynasty Nubian hair in is often depicted pleated , sometimes red. They often have hoop earrings and a sash sometimes across the chest and often hanging down the the excess of a wide belt.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
I guess my next dominate question would be, what should we call the different ethnic groups that comprised the Upper Egypt civilized state both past and present?
Egyptians and Nubians (Nehesy) The sub group of Nubians most mentioned were Kushites but there were several other groups.
Would it be right to refer to the Beja as one of those early groups? Or a mixing between Custhic groups, Nilotic groups and another Group in the Nile Valley?
These are language terms used today you can't make a direct connection to the ancient Nubians and be certain. It's speculation to what degree the connection is
______________________________
The descendants of the ancient Nubians still inhabit the general area of what was ancient Nubia. They currently live in what is called Old Nubia, mainly located in modern Egypt. Nubians have been resettled in large numbers (an estimated 50,000 people) away from southern Egypt since the 1960s, when the Aswan High Dam was built on the Nile, flooding ancestral lands.[33] Some resettled Nubians continue working as farmers (sharecroppers) on resettlement farms whose landowners live elsewhere; most work in Egypt's cities. Whereas Arabic was once only learned by Nubian men who travelled for work, it is increasingly being learned by Nubian women who have access to school, radio and television. Nubian women are working outside the home in increasing numbers.
But when Egyptian's referred to them as "Nubian", they most likely meant the Dinka/Nuer, "Upper Nubia", right?
Look at the pictures One Third African put up those are all clearly Kushites and Nehesy (Egyptian word for Nubian).
Also connecting modern Nuba, Dinka, Beja it's speculation if they are directly related. 18th dynasty Nubian hair in is often depicted pleated, sometimes red. They often have hoop earrings and a sash sometimes across the chest and often hanging down the excess of a wide belt.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
In which case, they wouldn't really be ethnic "Nubians" or Kushites.
Even to the aforementioned Third his or her belief is.
At least not all of them, were Kushites or "Nubian".
So they could likely, Kushizhed Dinka or other sent to bring tribute or as tribute. Alongside Kushites.
Thanks for the link, will try and get it.
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The way I see it, these would best represent the population of Wawat ("Lower Nubia", or the C-Group as archaeologists know them) during dynastic times. Notice that, despite having darker skin, their features are not that different from their Egyptian neighbors
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And these would be the people of Kush, or "Upper Nubia". Note the Egyptianesque costumes.
......................
I suspect the people you see depicted wearing animal-hide loincloths might represent pastoralist communities from further south in the Sudan. In which case, they wouldn't really be ethnic "Nubians" or Kushites.
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(Sounds sort of like the Hutu and Tutsi social dynamic in a way, but on larger scale. Without the pitfall of corruptible/unfair social hierarchy)
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Thank you for giving me your perspective as it fits sort of with my thinking.
In your opinion why do you think "Lower Nubia" and "Upper Nubia" differed or were similar in one area but not in another area? Would it be due to them not being Egyptization, under the first state unification? Too far south? or maybe an agreement?
Or does it have to do with events prior that has to do with the convergence of select cultural groups that would go on to create Ancient Egypt? After the Green Sahara turned into desert thus started the populating of the Nile Valley.
One more thing is there any information on rather or no there was a group that was living in the Nile Valley before the migration of other groups?
quote: A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley – K Godde July 2018
Abstract
The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years, were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance.
Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos **maintained **genetic similarity among the populations.
I see that in this study, it's made clear that both groups are very similar, especially on a genetic level. Almost to the point where it's odd to separate them in my opinion.
But what group of specific Egyptians and "Nubians" did they select, is my question and if compared to those in Upper Nubia/Sudan. Would the results have been different?
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posted
tomb-painting Nubians bringing tribute from the south to Pharaoh Museum number EA922 Tomb of Sobekhotep (Thebes) (reign of Thutmose IV)
@Heart of Africa is you want to learn you must do some more reading
One Third African should be posting some captions of you could ask him but I did it in this case. The term "Nubian" is something the Romans used. It means " groups and nations living to the south of Egypt" It also includes Nubians living up the river into Egyptian political territory
so with the info about the above painting these keywords>>
Register 3: Countries of the South, Nubia and the Sudan
"Coming in peace by the Great of southern countries, Nubia, Lower Nubia and Khenethennefer, bending, touching the ground with their foreheads, bringing their tribute to the place where His Majesty is found, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt (Menkheperre) |., living forever, in order for him to give them the breath of life, It is the Prince, Governor, Chancellor of the King of Lower Egypt, sole friend, Mayor of the City, Vizier, Rekhmire, who receives the tribute of all foreign countries that are brought due to the power of His Majesty, through force […] efficiency […]".
_________________________________________
There they say
"Countries of the South, Nubia and the Sudan"
the site has a lot of good information but they are calling Nubia a country which I wouldn't do. It's not a country, it's a generic term meaning all the peoples to the south and the Egyptians used the term "Nehesy" "Kush" hover can be described as a nation
"Nubian" today is used for the people living near the Nile in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan
posted
I'm not confused about the term in of themselves, just the purposed differences, and personally. I've read more than my fair share of information on a good chunk of these varies connotation and will continue to, to strength my understanding.
But I see contradictions in pin pointing particular groups, that fit the depictions, outside just the descriptors themselves.
Plus as you keep saying @Lioness even you are unsure. Since I completely understand that the term 'Nubian" was formulated by Romans and has no foundation in Ancient Egyptian language, outside obvious parallels to naming where a certain group, came from further or lower South some of which were referred to as a Kushite.
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: I'm confused about the location just the purposed differences, and have read more than my fair share of information on a good chunk of these varies connotation.
It looks like here you meant to write "I'm NOT confused about the location just the purposed differences"
anyway, differences between who and who?
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I mean, to say. When it comes specifically to the groups in question for this topic, how can anyone determine the ethnic parallel of the past to today. In any reasonable fashion.
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Like the light skin or even "Asiatic" (to me) looking Libyans on the walls of the Book of Gates. Many have wrongly assumed that's what all Libyans looked like to the Egyptians back then, but obviously that's not the case at all, even now.
When we know that there are indigenous black Libyans that have lived in the region for centuries and do show up on the walls in Egypt.
As both traders, migrates, captives, and the like.
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So as I used with my three photos of supposed "Nubians" captives from war. But others would call them slaves, but that's semantics of course. Still other have called them Kushites just by why of descriptions labeling them "Nubian" like there was a civilization call that. When there obviously wasn't.
For example with the link you provided. It says on the third page these figures in red cloth are captured "Nubians".
quote: To the right are the Nubians, seven men and seven women (see sh-39). The women, wearing long red skirts, bring with them children, with the youngest in a basket on their backs.
Surely those are Kushites or maybe even figures from "Lower Nubia" or from Wawat.
quote:
The new state of these vassal lands was government by Egypt and their contributions were taxes. Their (tribute) bearers are of course black, have frizzy hair and are wearing little skin loincloths. Six Nubians are wearing fly pendants suspended around their necks, very different in their general shape from Egyptian fly pendants of the same time period (see bs-38440-45). The latter is always made of gold and seldomly given by Pharaoh to high rank militaries only (this issue has been studied in 2015 by A. Marshall).
Nubians bring dogs, oxen with curved horns (see bg-377, see bs-38433, see bs-38434), a hamadryas baboon and vervet monkeys (see bg-381, see bs-3849), one of which climbs the neck of a beautifully painted giraffe (see bs-38436), a feline (see bg-382, see bs-38442). Then there are animal skins (see bs-38445), giraffe tails, ostrich eggs and feathers (see bs-38437), ebony logs (see bs-38440), gold rings and bars, elephant tusks (see bg-383), ointments, red stones (amethyst?) and green (malachite?), oil of Nubia in large white jars (see bg-385).
But as you can see in the same breath they call these figures above giving tribute/taxes, with gold and the like. Even noting their distinct necklaces compared to Egyptians, as "Nubians".
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Now the text never separates the different ethnic groups that are clearly shown under the "Nubian" label presented on the walls. No mention of Kushites as a differential despite the group in red skirts having the same reddish brown color applied to their figure as the Egyptians.
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I mean, to say. When it comes specifically to the groups in question for this topic, how can anyone determine the ethnic parallel of the past to today. In any reasonable fashion.
It can't be determined for sure, only guessed
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
Like the light skin or even "Asiatic" (to me) looking Libyans on the walls of the Book of Gates. Many have wrongly assumed that's what all Libyans looked like to the Egyptians back then, but obviously that's not the case at all, even now.
Libyans may or may not have Asiatic ancestry but they are not classified by the Egyptians as Aam Asiatics like the Syro-Palestinians are. The Libyans are of North Africa some with a yellowish skin tone, others brown and they have the side lock and often but not always beards
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: When we know that there are indigenous black Libyans that have lived in the region for centuries and do show up on the walls in Egypt.
If you go to Libya today and see a dark skinned berber or a light skinned berber You can't tell by looking how far their ancestry goes back in that region. They are a very nomadic people and intermingling has been going on continuously from both the Levant, Africa south of Libya and Southern Europe. You can't just look at any berber and assume that they have deep ancestry in ancient Libya.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
So as I used with my three photos of supposed "Nubians" captives from war. But others would call them slaves, but that's semantics of course. Still other have called them Kushites just by why of descriptions labeling them "Nubian" like there was a civilization call that. When there obviously wasn't.
Chattel slaves recorded in Egyptian records were mostly prisoners of war and were brought over to different cities and countries to be sold as slaves. Other prisoners were drafted into the military.
Horemheb spent time travelling Ancient Egypt repairing damage done by the chaos of Akhenaten, Tutankhamun, and Ay, and emphasized feedback from common folk in making changes to policy. His massive societal reforms were the catalyst to put Ancient Egypt back in order.
One of his enduring legacies came from the “The Great Edict of Horemheb,” a proclamation found etched on the tenth pillar at Karnak.
Horemheb’s Edict derided the state of corruption in Ancient Egypt that had occurred under the Amarna Kings, noting specific instances of long-time corrupt practices that were tearing the fabric of society. These included unlawfully seized property, bribery, embezzlement, the mismanagement of taxes collected, and even the taking of slaves for personal use by tax collectors.
quote: To the right are the Nubians, seven men and seven women (see sh-39). The women, wearing long red skirts, bring with them children, with the youngest in a basket on their backs.
Surely those are Kushites or maybe even figures from "Lower Nubia" or from Wawat.
the art is in poor condition there and the photo is bad too The identity of those figures in the lower row, the Fifth Register of the Grand Procession at Rekhmire are uncertain
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
According to Hodel-Hoenes & Warburton register 1: the prince of Punt register 2: princes of Crete and Mediterranean islands register 3: princes of southern lands and the Antiu (cavern dwellers) register 4: princes of Retenu and northern lands clear to the far north register 5: captive children of southern and northern lands for workshops
quote: Originally posted by jari:
Grand Procession. Part 4. From a Tomb at Thebes. (Register 5)
They label them as people from "Various Lands" which leads me to think that either 1) The Egyptologists who provided the information on the link have no idea who any of the people are and are guessing by the good they are bringing.(like us)
or
2) The Egyptologists do not know the name of the folks in the 5th group unless there is a glyph for "Various Nations" in Mdr Ntr...
quote: To the right are the Nubians, seven men and seven women (see sh-39). The women, wearing long red skirts, bring with them children, with the youngest in a basket on their backs.
Surely those are Kushites or maybe even figures from "Lower Nubia" or from Wawat.
the art is in poor condition there and the photo is bad too The identity of those figures in the lower row, the Fifth Register of the Grand Procession at Rekhmire are uncertain
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
According to Hodel-Hoenes & Warburton register 1: the prince of Punt register 2: princes of Crete and Mediterranean islands register 3: princes of southern lands and the Antiu (cavern dwellers) register 4: princes of Retenu and northern lands clear to the far north register 5: captive children of southern and northern lands for workshops
quote: Originally posted by jari:
Grand Procession. Part 4. From a Tomb at Thebes. (Register 5)
They label them as people from "Various Lands" which leads me to think that either 1) The Egyptologists who provided the information on the link have no idea who any of the people are and are guessing by the good they are bringing.(like us)
or
2) The Egyptologists do not know the name of the folks in the 5th group unless there is a glyph for "Various Nations" in Mdr Ntr...
___________________________________________They might be similar to these Nubians from the Tomb of Huy ^^^
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: When we know that there are indigenous black Libyans that have lived in the region for centuries and do show up on the walls in Egypt.
If you go to Libya today and see a dark skinned berber or a light skinned berber You can't tell by looking how far their ancestry goes back in that region. They are a very nomadic people and intermingling has been going on continuously from both the Levant, Africa south of Libya and Southern Europe. You can't just look at any berber and assume that they have deep ancestry in ancient Libya.
You can certainly do this maybe not from pictures but certainly from archeology and genetic cross-referencing origin like the Haratin, Tubu, ...etc(who are indigenous to Maghreb) among other African ethnic groups that get called "Sub-Saharan" African. Most these peoples used to most likely live in North Africa but had become nomadic either before or after the drying of the Green Sahara, ala the Tuareg, Zenata.
IMO, I think you can make a very sound argument for that reality. Especially given the Jebel Irhoud find in Morocco and vast genetic relations with other Afro-Saharan populations.
................
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
So as I used with my three photos of supposed "Nubians" captives from war. But others would call them slaves, but that's semantics of course. Still other have called them Kushites just by why of descriptions labeling them "Nubian" like there was a civilization call that. When there obviously wasn't.
Kush is an official historical political entity.
I wasn't saying that Kush wasn't confirmed by the AE historical political record. I'm saying it wasn't called "Nubian" by the Egyptians, as there was not a civilization called Nubia.
I'm sure this how been discussed in this very forum.
So when those depictions call them "Nubian" captives of war. It does not look like Kushites at all or at least for the most part but a group from Upper Nubia in southern Sudan, as One Third remarked.
Even the 25th dynasty statues don't seem to reflect the "Nubian" captives of war depictions.
Which brings me back to my previous remarks about Upper Egypt and current population ethnic group and their relation to the Ta-Seti civilization or state.
.............................
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Chattel slaves recorded in Egyptian records were mostly prisoners of war and were brought over to different cities and countries to be sold as slaves. Other prisoners were drafted into the military.
Horemheb spent time travelling Ancient Egypt repairing damage done by the chaos of Akhenaten, Tutankhamun, and Ay, and emphasized feedback from common folk in making changes to policy. His massive societal reforms were the catalyst to put Ancient Egypt back in order.
One of his enduring legacies came from the “The Great Edict of Horemheb,” a proclamation found etched on the tenth pillar at Karnak.
Horemheb’s Edict derided the state of corruption in Ancient Egypt that had occurred under the Amarna Kings, noting specific instances of long-time corrupt practices that were tearing the fabric of society. These included unlawfully seized property, bribery, embezzlement, the mismanagement of taxes collected, and even the taking of slaves for personal use by tax collectors.
Curious what does this information pertain to, exactly? Or provide context to?
I don't believe Egyptians practiced in chattel slavery, but like most African groups. It was captives of wars, among other things, and wealthy or royalty in other parts of Africa that made those they captured servants.
(Sorry, if we are going in circles)
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Curious what does this information pertain to, exactly? Or provide context to?
I don't believe Egyptians practiced in chattel slavery, but like most African groups. It was captives of wars, among other things, and wealthy or royalty in other parts of Africa that made those they captured servants.
(Sorry, if we are going in circles) [/QB]
There are documented references of sales and transfers of slaves in Egyptian records. The extent of it is not clear however You posted that photo of the Nubians sitting down that people like to call slaves. I posted the full information to go along with what you were saying that we can't assume prisoners were made into slaves. Also the title "prisoners" not slaves And then I posted some Asiatic prisoners from the same Horemeb tomb to show that one scene with the Nubians must be placed in context to the other scenes of prisoners
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There are documented references of sales and transfers of slaves in Egyptian records. The extent of it is not clear however.
You posted that photo of the Nubians sitting down that people like to call slaves. I posted the full information to go along with what you were saying that we can't assume prisoners were made into slaves. Also the title "prisoners" not slaves
And then I posted some Asiatic prisoners from the same Horemeb tomb to show that one scene with the Nubians must be placed in context to the other scenes of prisoners
Understood, matter contextualized.
Thx
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
So when those depictions call them "Nubian" captives of war. It does not look like Kushites at all
what are you talking about?
How do you know what Kushites look like?
What do you believe that man is? A relative to the Kuhsties? As there is no such thing as "Nubian" in AE. Which is why I used the term Kushized/Dinka/Nuer (who the captures most look like).
He does look like he could be a Dinka/Nuer in the art (obviously) but that doesn't mean, he's a Kushite. That's not a matter of knowing in person what a Kushite looks like, that's a matter of clearly seeing the different parallels of dress and tradition on display in craving, so again the prisoners look more like those from further South in Sudan.
Furthermore, the man you posted is labeled under "Nubian" but that does not mean Kushite, he could be from Upper Nubia/Sudan, but obviously lives in Lower Nubia/Sudan now.
Aside from him, others in the village called Abir look like they could fit right into Aswan.
quote:
quote:
'
quote: Wall paintings in the tomb of Qalhata, mother of King Tanwetamani, depict the queen's passage to the afterlife. The tomb is part of the royal cemetery at El Kurru of which little is known. The earliest tombs date from the 9th century BC, it is thought that El Kurru was an early capital of Kush before moving to nearby Jebel Barkal. ...The ancient kingdom of Kush emerged around 2000 BC in the land of Nubia, what is today northern Sudan.
This is one example of how the Kushites/"Nubia"/"Nubian" depicted themselves. So would those posted be more related to Kushites or Egyptians?
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So when those depictions call them "Nubian" captives of war. It does not look like Kushites at all
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
what are you talking about?
How do you know what Kushites look like? [/qb]
What do you believe that man is? A relative to the Kuhsties? As there is no such thing as "Nubian" in AE. Which why I used the term Kushized but not as the Dinka/Nuer (who the captures most look like) being part of the direct population that started Anicent Kush but relatives.
So yeah, he doesn't look like the Dinka/Nuer in the art (obviously) outside skin color.
Modern clothing doesn't matter
Above we have some Nubian men and they have similar features to Kushites in in Egyptian art. The Nubian men above also look Dinka
The Egyptians didn't use the word Nubian but their equivalent word was Nehesy just like Kmt Kemet is equivalent to Egypt
As fer Kushites all we have to go by is Egyptian and Nubian Kushite ancient art
The men above live along the Nile so it's possible they are descendants of the Kushites as shown in the Egyptian art. They also have that very dark skin tone that you often see in a lot of the 18-19th dynasty paintings and fiance where the Kushites are depicted jet black (but not always)
And if Dinka also look similar some of them might be related to the ancient Nubians/ Kushites but we can't be certain
quote: The kingdom of Kush, centered at Kerma, has been the most dominant entity in the early history of Sudan. However, evidence indicates that Kush was not the only state in the region. Other smaller polities have coexisted with the Kushite kingdom. The earliest evidence of these polities comes from the inscriptions of Harkhuf, who served as the Egyptian governor of Upper Egypt during the Old Kingdom. The inscriptions, found on his tomb, tell of an explorative expedition that he undertook deep into Sudan.
Click here for larger view. Map of the early kingdoms as they apply to the modern political boundaries of Sudan. Early Kingdoms in Sudan Through his account, Harkhuf provides us with invaluable indications, though somewhat vague, on the early developments, political structuring, and formation of statehood in Sudan. Nonetheless, the account is shaped by three major problems. First, geographical locations are vaguely described. Second, no satisfactory explanations of the political structures of the mentioned polities are provided. Third, the account is written from a perspective that is biased towards Egypt. Being Egyptian, Harkhuf was inclined to present the people of Nubia as weak.
The account mentions five regional entities in Sudan: Wawat, Irtjet, Setju, Yam, and Temeh. Each polity was evidently headed by a ruler. Out of the five, Yam is Harkhuf's major concern. He describes Yam as the most dominant: "Now when the chief of Irthet [Irjet], Sethu [Setju], and Wawat saw how strong and numerous was the troop of Yam..."
you will not be able to go into Egyptian art and find much if anything identifying and distinguishing them by appearance. Almost everything you will see is of Kushites. Kushites are a type of Nubian, Nubians are all the groups to the south. If you don't like the word just use "Nehesey" that is the Egyptian word meaning virtually the same thing, the foreigners to the south, all of the groups there
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: So words like Sa'idi are geographic terms in reference to locations of where a certain group came from, North or South, and they could be Arab or other? Interesting.
Correct.
quote:Meaning, I should call indigenous Egyptians, Baladi? Does that word describe one ethnic group?
Yes. Baladi means 'native' or indigenous as opposed to other Egyptians who are not such as the Arabs, Greeks, Turks, etc.
I posted a thread on the issue of Baladi Egyptians here. Unfortunately, because Arabs are politically dominant, the Baladi don't get as much representation in the media and they even get stereotyped the same way as black minorities in other countries such as being less intelligent or more violent.
quote:[Furthermore, do we know what the ancient Baladi called those from "Lower Nubia" and "Upper Nubia"? Were they all Kushites? Or just those within "Lower Nubia"? Do those that reside in Aswan today relate more to Kushites, than to Baladi?
Generally speaking from the Middle Kingdom onward, Lower Nubia was called Wawat while Upper Nubia was Kush as these were the two dominant groups in those respective areas though the Kushites quickly rose to become an empire and assimilated Wawat. It's hard to tell because there were various groups living in so-called 'Nubia' at that time.
It wasn't until the beginning of the New Kingdom that Egypt conquered and annexed Kush i.e. all Nile Valley Nubia.
quote:Overall, what I'm getting from this in a general sense is that there's still confusion on whom these depictions may represent directly? In relation to which ethnic group or their names in ancient times.
I have the same feeling because as I told Brandon, there aren't that many detailed depictions as to which Nubian group was who. Many of the depictions of so-called Kushites for example may not be Kushite at all but rather groups who were under the Kushite suzerainty since as I said Kush before the New Kingdom was a full blown empire. Many of the depictions show people for example who look more like modern day southern Sudanese like the Dinka and Nuer though the Kushites had different facial features that resemble modern North Sudanese.
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It seems you are trying to make similar connections to these "Nubian" man being related in some way to those that would be depicted as "Nubian" prisoners in the cravings.
Interesting, can't say I totally agree but I can see from a depiction perspective. How they'd match to a certain degree.
Since they are without the obvious South Sudanese traditional clothing, markings, jewelry. The one farming like I mentioned before looks like what a Nuer looks, like. But the other one resembles more those lower South into Egypt. IMO
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The kingdom of Kush, centered at Kerma, has been the most dominant entity in the early history of Sudan. However, evidence indicates that Kush was not the only state in the region. Other smaller polities have coexisted with the Kushite kingdom. The earliest evidence of these polities comes from the inscriptions of Harkhuf, who served as the Egyptian governor of Upper Egypt during the Old Kingdom. The inscriptions, found on his tomb, tell of an explorative expedition that he undertook deep into Sudan.
history_03_cheif.htm
That would make sense given how many other African ethnic groups reside/d along the Nile Valley.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
These various other groups of Nubians
Wawat, Irtjet, Setju, Yam, etc
If you don't like the word just use "Nehesey" that is the Egyptian word meaning virtually the same thing, the foreigners to the south, all of the groups there
I'm not seeing much information about the word "Nehesy" meaning foreigners to the south. I mean Punt was further south/east, but they weren't considered foreigners. At least not from what I've read.
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I have the same feeling because as I told Brandon, there aren't that many detailed depictions as to which Nubian group was who. Many of the depictions of so-called Kushites for example may not be Kushite at all but rather groups who were under the Kushite suzerainty since as I said Kush before the New Kingdom was a full blown empire. Many of the depictions show people for example who look more like modern day southern Sudanese like the Dinka and Nuer though the Kushites had different facial features that resemble modern North Sudanese.
Good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Because I believe it makes common sense, given the obvious factors on visuals alone.
The Egyptians seem pretty exact on whom, was whom to a degree. Instead of simpler descriptions of "Nubian" or "Nehesy" their art made sure to showcase the clearest differences between themselves and others.
Do you have any theories on how even stayed together to even form the Ancient Egyptian with all these African ethnic groups? To even have some elite be A group "Nubians" and elite Egyptians - Baladi.
quote: Quote: “For example, a **closer** affinity has been detected of the wealthy Nubian A-Group **to **elite Egyptians than elite Egyptians were to other Egyptians (Prowse and Lovell, 1996). At Tombos in Lower Nubia, long term Egyptian occupation led to homogenization of the two different populations over the Napatan period (Smith and Buzon, 2014). Smith and Buzon (2014) describe peaceful interactions that likely led to the biological similitude formed over time.”
Do you think that group maybe related more to those from Wawat, despite the C-group being connected to those that lived in Wawat? Maybe it was mix of both groups (A-C)? With some coming from further south in Sudan.
Thank you for the thorough answers to my questions and confirmation, and providing compounding information. Will check out that thread.
I feel for the Baladi having foreigners in their land, make their lives difficult. Just like the "Nubian" - African ethnic groups in Aswan. After the dam was built and the Egyptian Government didn't care about all the history and the people's connect to it that would be lost.
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: I'm not seeing much information about the word "Nehesy" meaning foreigners to the south. I mean Punt was further south/east, but they weren't considered foreigners. At least not from what I've read.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Many of the depictions show people for example who look more like modern day southern Sudanese like the Dinka and Nuer though the Kushites had different facial features that resemble modern North Sudanese.
This is a Northern Sudanese man from Abri who also resembles a Dinka who also resembles Kushites depicted at tomb of Horemheb and the tribute at Huy and leopard skin wearers at Rekhmire
In order to say a person looks different from a Kushite then you have to start with a particular piece of Egyptian or Nubian art for comparison
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The khast sign at the end of various Nehesi place names indicates they are foreign, including Punt or Pwanit as Doc Ben spelled it.
A throwstick sign after ethnic identifiers lets on they were belligerent foreigners.
Pwaniti sometimes have the throwstick but their plural indicator looks like three Netcheru. Compare and contrast the three males in the Nehesi kingdom names in Weni's autobiography.
AEs had a nickname for Pwenet folk that was something like AngloSpanish 'Barbadian' or AustrianGermanic 'Egger'. When I first saw it I thought it might be related to Habesh, maybe a forerunner of that ethnonym.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: I'm not seeing much information about the word "Nehesy" meaning foreigners to the south. I mean Punt was further south/east, but they weren't considered foreigners. At least not from what I've read.
The Oxford Companion to the Bible By Bruce M. Metzger · 1993
Thanks more to bookmark...but should anyone be taking an Oxford companion to the Bible, as historical record? Or is that a sourced notation.
Because like the First link suggest that the term refers to an individual (Nehesy Aasehre - Nehesi- was a ruler of Lower Egypt during the fragmented Second Intermediate Period. He is placed by most scholars into the early 14th Dynasty, as either the second or the sixth pharaoh of this dynasty). Not perhaps to a whole land.
Do see any reference to the term within the Cultural Genocide in the Black and African Studies Curriculum link. Will get this book regardless.
In either case interesting.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: I consider, the best point was made by Whatbox,
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: so there wasn't a concept of black unity with people like the Nubians?
Some. There were different clicks. It all depend on what click you rollin' wit.
In all seriousness, all Nubians, for Nub nu (Gold city) was a city in Kemet. And even if your "Nubia" refers to the region today straddling the border of Egypt and Sudan, this is where Kemet started out at and constantly took Princes and Queen mothers from, so the answer "all Nubians" stands for them as well. See, "Nefertari Prophesy".
I have a feeling though, your Nubians refers to Southerners typically not considered Egyptians, all collectively referred to as Nehhesu, like the Medjai and Kushites. Well, traditional enemies of Egypt could include Southerners, "Libyans" (folks to their West, and Asiatics (South West Asians). At times for instance the Medjay were enemies, during others they were a bow-specializing millitary unit of Kemet.
I think during a period in time the name Kemet extended to the general Nehesu, though I'm not quite sure how far this went geographically speaking.
It doesn't believe it as direct affiliation of color or the color black. Given there were black colored Egyptians, just where they came from.
Since again, the term "Nubian" was not used. That's u, making that assumption, as well as the Greeks/Romans before us.
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: It doesn't believe it as direct affiliation of color or the color black. Given there were black colored Egyptians, just where they came from.
I don't know what the first sentence means
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
Since again, the term "Nubian" was not used. That's u, making that assumption, as well as the Greeks/Romans before us.
Above you just used the term "Egyptian" that is not the native term, was not used either
"Nubian" means various groups people to south of Egypt's political territory
The Egyptians used the word Nhs (Nehesy or Nehesi) the most influential group of them were the Kushites
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Many of the depictions show people for example who look more like modern day southern Sudanese like the Dinka and Nuer though the Kushites had different facial features that resemble modern North Sudanese.
This is a Northern Sudanese man from Abri who also resembles a Dinka who also resembles Kushites depicted at tomb of Horemheb and the tribute at Huy and leopard skin wearers at Rekhmire
In order to say a person looks different from a Kushite then you have to start with a particular piece of Egyptian or Nubian art for comparison
Or it could just be a southern Sudanese that moved to Northern Sudan. Just like the C-group that moved to Wawat and most likely even beyond.
Populations don't always reside in one place obviously. Especially along the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: It doesn't believe it as direct affiliation of color or the color black. Given there were black colored Egyptians, just where they came from.
I don't know what the first sentence means
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
Since again, the term "Nubian" was not used. That's u, making that assumption, as well as the Greeks/Romans before us.
Above you just used the term "Egyptian" that is not the native term, was not used either
"Nubian" means various groups people to south of Egypt's political territory
The Egyptians used the word Nhs (Nehesy or Nehesi) the most influential group of them were the Kushites
Of course, I'm using the term Egyptian, because that's what this forum has called them since 2002. That's a bit of a strawman.
But I get your point.
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quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Or it could just be a southern Sudanese that moved to Northern Sudan.
It could be but when you talk about people resembling common pieces of Egyptian art with the jet black skin and the broad features this man matches that
Like I said you have to begin with a piece of art that is regarded as Kushite and is part of a body of similar art
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The khast sign at the end of various Nehesi place names indicates they are foreign, including Punt or Pwanit as Doc Ben spelled it.
A throwstick sign after ethnic identifiers lets on they were belligerent foreigners.
Pwaniti sometimes have the throwstick but their plural indicator looks like three Netcheru. Compare and contrast the three males in the Nehesi kingdom names in Weni's autobiography.
AEs had a nickname for Pwenet folk that was something like AngloSpanish 'Barbadian' or AustrianGermanic 'Egger'. When I first saw it I thought it might be related to Habesh, maybe a forerunner of that ethnonym.
Wouldn't that information about the Ta netjer -Throwstick sign_- show up here?
quote:The Palermo Stone contains the earliest hieroglyphic description of an ancient Egyptian expedition to the Land of Punt, during the Fifth Dynasty
I also believe this group very much are related to those that lived in or around the blue nile.
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Here is a problem, above we have 18th dynasty Kushites and this type is seen in a lot of Egyptian art of this period, clothing and physical appearance
and here, 25th dynasty The features seem different Why I don't know and I don't think anybody does
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posted
I think connections and deductions can be made here with caveats to a relative smart degree.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Here is a problem, above we have 18th dynasty Kushites and this type is seen in a lot of Egyptian art of this period, clothing and physical appearance
I really do think once, you compare this "Nubian" group shown as prisoners, to the picture I just posted. You see that they were most likely Kushized Southern pastoralist Sudanese. Similar to the Hutu and Tutsi dynamic, as I mentioned before.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
and here, 25th dynasty The features seem different Why I don't know and I don't think anybody does
Exactly my point, there doesn't seem to be much resemblance, at all. So maybe the group that raised as rulers in the 25thn Dynasty, were more related to those from "Lower Nubia" or Wawat, ala the A-group or C-group cultures.
quote: “For example, a **closer** affinity has been detected of the wealthy Nubian A-Group **to **elite Egyptians than elite Egyptians were to other Egyptians (Prowse and Lovell, 1996). At Tombos in Lower Nubia, long term Egyptian occupation led to homogenization of the two different populations over the Napatan period (Smith and Buzon, 2014). Smith and Buzon (2014) describe peaceful interactions that likely led to the biological similitude formed over time.”
.........................
Since it seems to be more the case that Kush, was an Empire that housed many diverse groups and was much bigger, then others think and certainly not weak.
As noted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
This article further supports the theory that I and others have been espousing on this forum for years and that is Kush beginning with the Kerman period was not merely a "kingdom" but an empire. Yet for some reason the only Kushite empire most scholars are willing to acknowledge was the Egypto-Kushite empire of the 25th dynasty. Yet even before this discovery of these settlements in Kerma, we have writings from the Egyptians warning of the dire threat Kush posed with its multitudes of armies from diverse nations including Punt, including not one but multiple successful raids into Egypt sacking Egyptian cities as shown here.
Yet nowhere in the article is the term 'empire' ever used even though that is exactly what we are dealing with here. What else do you call a trans-national kingdom with hegemony over multiple states?? I can't help but to think this stems from bias that the ol' black, Nubian Kushites were able to create an empire without aid or intervention from the presumably non-black Egyptians and worse yet did so before the Egyptians did so in the New Kingdom!
I also find it interesting that the Kushite imperial hegemony was not based on forceful domination but rather through peaceful coalition as the article shows ambassadorial settlements surrounding the capital of Kerma, this harkens to the situation of the earliest historical empire in the Western Sahara that of Ghana whose hegemony was also based on peaceful coalition. Such imperial power based on diplomatic relations may very well have to do with the role of royal women as per matrilineal traditions since that was also the case with Old Ghana.
quote:But Bonnet’s excavations are offering a markedly Nubian perspective on the earliest days of Kerma and its role as the capital of a far-reaching kingdom that dominated the Nile south of Egypt. His finds there and at a neighboring ancient settlement known as Dukki Gel suggest that this urban center was an ethnic melting pot, with origins tied to a complex web of cultures native to both the Sahara, and, farther south, parts of central Africa. These discoveries have gradually revealed the complex nature of a powerful African kingdom.
quote:Bonnet’s work at Kerma quickly showed that Reisner was wrong. His team’s surveys of the city’s necropolis revealed 30,000 burials in addition to those Reisner had excavated, making it one of the largest cemeteries yet discovered in the ancient world. And after unearthing tombs, buildings, and pottery that predated the 1500 B.C. Egyptian invasion of Nubia, Bonnet realized that Kerma was not merely an Egyptian colony, but had been built and ruled by Nubians. “The country was wrongly believed to have only depended on Egypt,” says Bonnet. “I wanted to reconstruct a more accurate history of Sudan.” In addition to determining that Nubians had founded the city, the team began to identify evidence of other African cultures at Kerma. They discovered round huts, oval temples, and intricate curved-wall bastions that were distinct from both Egyptian and Nubian architecture, and instead mirrored buildings archaeologists have unearthed in southern Sudan and regions in central Africa. “We realized that the tombs, palaces, and temples stood out from Egyptian remains, and that a different tradition characterized the discoveries,” says Bonnet. “We were in another world.”
quote:Some buildings Bonnet has unearthed at Kerma suggest that African influences from outside Nubia endured, and that foreign people continued to live at Kerma even after the C-Group departed. To him, the building styles there represent a conglomeration of cultures, with architecture not only influenced by Egyptian practices, but also inspired by other African traditions. In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. Much like the C-Group, however, the precise identity of these later African populations at Kerma remains unknown. Little archaeological research has been conducted in southern Sudan, and there are very few known sites with which to compare Kerma.
quote:Bonnet wondered how an entire city built using non-Nubian African traditions and presumably serving a different population could have existed so close to Kerma. He notes that Egyptian sources say that their armies often contended not just with Nubians, but with coalitions of enemies to the south. Perhaps, he suggests, the kings of Kerma occasionally led a kind of federation of Nubians and Africans from farther south against Egypt. Leaders from the south may have brought their armies to Dukki Gel, which they built according to their traditions, and which might have functioned as a ceremonial and military center. Geomagnetic surveys at the site have yielded images of installations that might have been troop encampments, but these have yet to be excavated.
So basically it would have been a crossroads between Saharan and southern Sudanic Africa.
So obviously whatever these prisoners represent they seem to be more South Sudanese in type. Whom were either under Kushite rule as it was proposed in this thread. Or another group of "Nubians" that most likely weren't Kushties but of course lived in Nile Valley, in the South, and went to war with Kemet only to lose.
I wouldn't doubt that they could be Kushite allies or South Sudan mercenary groups. Similar to the Medjay.
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Kushites, Tomb of Huy, 18th dynasty bringing tribute to the Pharaoh
Captives with white ropes on their necks and hands bound at the end of the procession
The tomb of Amenhotep Huy, ruler of Lower Nubia Kush under king Tutankhamun
Amenhotep, called Huy, was a viceroy of Nubia. The Lower Nubian Kush was a province of Egypt from the 16th century BC to eleventh century BC. During this period it was ruled by a viceroy who reported directly to the Egyptian Pharaoh. The viceroy was appointed directly by the Egyptian king and usually bore the titles "overseer of the southern lands" and "king's son of Kush". It is believed that the Egyptian 25th dynasty were descendants of these viceroys and so were the dynasties that ruled independent Kush until the fourth century AD.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
I really do think once, you compare this "Nubian" group shown as prisoners, to the picture I just posted. You see that they were most likely Kushized Southern pastoralist Sudanese. Similar to the Hutu and Tutsi dynamic, as I mentioned before.
So obviously whatever these prisoners represent they seem to be more South Sudanese in type. Whom were either under Kushite rule as it was proposed in this thread. Or another group of "Nubians" that most likely weren't Kushties but of course lived in Nile Valley, in the South, and went to war with Kemet only to lose.
I wouldn't doubt that they could be Kushite allies or South Sudan mercenary groups. Similar to the Medjay.
All of these assumptions you are making about Northern and Southern Sudanese types cannot be assumed to apply 3,000 years ago
Above at the top of this post is the Kushite tribute to the Egyptian official Huy, a high . The same type as the prisoners is shown as well as what may be other types. I have read some speculation that the figures in the front who are bigger in size (sometimes depicted as such artificially by the Egyptians to indicate higher status) , some speculation that the figures in the front are Northern Sudanese. However I think this is wrong. I think the figures in the front are merely female, look at the long hanging earring and the one in back with the same earring is already considered female (why they are bigger and in front is not known)
Also memorize this, in the tombs like Rameses II and Seti I we see a table of nations, four types and note Nhy is used in the hieroglyphs, and as follows and in this order, nationalities followed by the Egyptian words
Egyptians Rmt
Asiatics Aam
Nubians Nhsy
Libyans Tmhhw
Tomb of Merenptah I ________________________________
^^where Ta-Nehisi Coates gets his name from, the Nehesy And thought to start in the eleventh dynasty two terms for Egypt Kemet (Kemit above) and Ta-Merry
Senkamanisken was a Kushite King who ruled from 640 to 620 BC at Napata. He used royal titles based on those of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Because I believe it makes common sense, given the obvious factors on visuals alone.
The Egyptians seem pretty exact on whom, was whom to a degree. Instead of simpler descriptions of "Nubian" or "Nehesy" their art made sure to showcase the clearest differences between themselves and others.
Do you have any theories on how even stayed together to even form the Ancient Egyptian with all these African ethnic groups? To even have some elite be A group "Nubians" and elite Egyptians - Baladi.
'Baladi' is the name indigenous Egyptians used for themselves in modern times not ancient as far as I'm aware. Ancient Egypt or Kmt began as union of Ta-Shemau (Upper Egypt) and Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt). There is question as to what if any ethnic differences existed between the two regions though texts suggest there was since for example in the Tale of Sinuhe, Sinuhe himself who is a Delta man says when he traveled to Upper Egypt he thought he was in an entirely different country since the customs and looks of the people were different and he could barely understand their speech. What's more within each country either Shemau or Mehu there are different Sepati or provinces which may very well be descended from tribes. A-Group was a culture that existed from Lower Nubia to southern Upper Egypt but was for the most part absorbed by Ta-Shemau.
quote:Do you think that group maybe related more to those from Wawat, despite the C-group being connected to those that lived in Wawat? Maybe it was mix of both groups (A-C)? With some coming from further south in Sudan.
Starting by the First Dynasty, immediately after after the two lands were united Kmt went to war with Ta-Seti (A-Group) and imported the populace into southern Upper Egypt. I don't know if any Setians were left but I don't doubt it. However C-Group archaeology was different from A-Group and evidence suggest they came in from the Western Desert.
quote:I feel for the Baladi having foreigners in their land, make their lives difficult. Just like the "Nubian" - African ethnic groups in Aswan. After the dam was built and the Egyptian Government didn't care about all the history and the people's connect to it that would be lost.
Some Baladi are suffering from an identity crisis themselves due to all the miseducation of their identity from Westerners wherein they deny their African identity and look down on other African at the same time as the Afrangi look down on them. Afrangi by the way is the term for 'foreign' descended Egyptians like the Arabs.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The khast sign at the end of various Nehesi place names indicates they are foreign, including Punt or Pwanit as Doc Ben spelled it.
A throwstick sign after ethnic identifiers lets on they were belligerent foreigners.
Pwaniti sometimes have the throwstick but their plural indicator looks like three Netcheru. Compare and contrast the three males in the Nehesi kingdom names in Weni's autobiography.
AEs had a nickname for Pwenet folk that was something like AngloSpanish 'Barbadian' or AustrianGermanic 'Egger'. When I first saw it I thought it might be related to Habesh, maybe a forerunner of that ethnonym.
Yeah I recall some texts translating this as 'Habeshat' and equated this to modern Abyssinians.
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All of these assumptions you are making about Northern and Southern Sudanese types cannot be assumed to apply 3,000 years ago
Above is the tribute at the tomb of Huy, a high profile procession. Those same types as the prisoners is shown as well as what may be other types. I have read some speculation that the figures in the front who are bigger in size (sometimes depicted as such artificially by the Egyptians to indicate higher status) , some speculation that the figures in the front are Northern Sudanese and the ones in the back similar to the prisoners, perhaps rank and file non-officials carrying objects are southern Sudanese) all of them part of the Kushite kingdom. And look at the children.
Also memorize this, in the tombs like Rameses II and Seti I we see a table of nations, four types and note Nhy is used in the hieroglyphs, and as follows and in this order, nationalities followed by the Egyptian words
Egyptians Rmt
Asiatics Aam
Nubians Nhsy
Libyans Tmhhw
All of my fairly educated assumptions thus far have come within context, IMO.
Certainly none of what I put forth seems farfetched or baseless. Like I said before its clear from a visual standpoint that the "Nubian" group that were captured as prisoners of war, resemble South Sudanese. Instead of the average purposed Kushite citizen is depicted from 25th dynastic period as you give as an example. But African ethnic groups from both Sudan and South Sudan under Kushite rule.
Just like my post about the Book of Gates and a similar thing that you made about the subject, that seem to want to note that the Ancient Egyptians only, saw four races. Which was of course not the case. Especially when we see in other hieroglyphs/art/carvings that all Libyans - Tmhhw - didn't always look like what's gets depicted on the walls.
__________________________ For example:
You have this digitization/remake here with light skin, where they look "Asiatic".
Then you have the same light skin Libyan (far Left), which tracks with the one above.
quote:
.........................
quote:
But then you have these that are also labeled or called Libyans.
You see darker skin tones, here. Which tracks to the example above. But of course not the same exact color as Ancient Kmt's.
.........................
But these Libyan could also be this group as well. In the darker skin example. __________________________
Which makes the case of that, that's just one Libyan ethnic group they encountered at the time. Not that that was the standard Libyan color or look.
Still Egyptology is all academic speculation until that speculation is substantiated.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Some Baladi are suffering from an identity crisis themselves due to all the miseducation of their identity from Westerners wherein they deny their African identity and look down on other African at the same time as the Afrangi look down on them. Afrangi by the way is the term for 'foreign' descended Egyptians like the Arabs.
Sounds like what happens with some Somali's groups calling themselves non-African because they believe they are "Arab" either due to their Faith or other geopolitical reason. Or simply separate themselves from so-called Bantu.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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Also keep in mind in this thread I have not posted pictures of Libyans nor commented on their appearance
(except in the illustration from Tomb of Merenptah I which I posted to show how these often talked about Book of Gates scenes refer to Nubians as Nhyw (Nehesi) not as commentary on Libyans
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why would it? In 3000 yrs of history things change. Each Kingdom and Intermediate had scripting nuances.
Can't see all the bottom row of the Annals Stone.
Here's a monument from Khasekhemwy in the meantime and the text from when posted back in 2004
I thought Kasekhem overcame the remnant of independent Nubians still to the south of El Kom el Ahmer around Edfu when he reunited the Two Lands? Does his stela with him kneeling on personified TaSeti really mention Buhen?
Yes Buhen was an early dynastic site in Nubia not too far north of Djebel Sheikh Sulimon the other early dynastic site near the 2nd cataract. They were outposts far from home and fell under Nubian scrutiny except when Nubian population was sparse as in the interval between terminal A group and C group times.
By the Old Kingdom 4th dynasty, Snefru had to re establish Egyptian hegemony at Buhen. The extent of Nubian resistance is shown in his claim of taking 7,0000 prisoners. Later in the 5th dynasty Buhen was producing copper. TaSeti no longer had the resources to resist until the end of the 6th dynasty and the rise of the C group later during the 1st Intermediate period.
In the Middle Kingdom Egypt was firm about control over Wawat. After soundly defeating the Nhsyw the Senwosrets found it necessary to build a string of fortresses. These were at Buhen, Kor, Dorginarti, Mirgissa, Dabenarti, Askut, Shalfak, Uronarti, Kumma, and Semna. They were to prevent passage of any Nhsw downriver including shipping, caravan, or pastoral transhumants. Passage was only to br granted to those assured not to confront Kmtw authority.
You dont have to build forts or deny clear passage except to a select few for people of your own country. It would only be in New Kingdom times that all Nubia was a political annex of Egypt. Kesh retained its distinction. NHSW were not RT RMT.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 15 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The khast sign at the end of various Nehesi place names indicates they are foreign, including Punt or Pwanit as Doc Ben spelled it.
A throwstick sign after ethnic identifiers lets on they were belligerent foreigners.
Pwaniti sometimes have the throwstick but their plural indicator looks like three Netcheru. Compare and contrast the three males in the Nehesi kingdom names in Weni's autobiography.
AEs had a nickname for Pwenet folk that was something like AngloSpanish 'Barbadian' or AustrianGermanic 'Egger'. When I first saw it I thought it might be related to Habesh, maybe a forerunner of that ethnonym.
Wouldn't that information about the Ta netjer -Throwstick sign_- show up here?
Also keep in mind in this thread I have not posted pictures of Libyans nor commented on their appearance
(except in the illustration from Tomb of Merenptah I which I posted to show how these often talked about Book of Gates scenes refer to Nubians as Nhyw (Nehesi) not as commentary on Libyans
Rather they be from Chad or Mali. Both are from Fulani and Tuareg groups that are nomadic. But we know they originate in North Africa/Sahara and Chad is in that region as well. Just like the Toubou ethnic groups that live in Northern Chad/Southern Libya. No different from the Haratin in Libya that are aboriginal to the Maghreb.
My main point, wasn't really about you mentioning them but. It's me using them as an example in reference to the many depictions of Libyans that can be seen. Aside what was put on the walls of the Book of Gates, which doesn't represent all Libyans but shows that Egyptians, were only depicting one ethnic group of Libyans that they faced.
Mirroring the 'Nubian" prisoners, whom are most likely not directly from Kush. But from South Sudan in connection to Kush, as I used as reference with my Dinka picture. Which looks very similar, compared to how the 25th dynasty depicted themselves.
Regardless if they are referred to as Nhyw (Nehesi). That doesn't mean that Kushites looked like them. Since we know that the C-group lived among them, aka Wawat.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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Are you talking about these hieroglyphic text, in red that I circled?
But is that a Throwstick (Hieroglyphic)? Maybe a modified one? or would there not be that sign. Since Ta-Seti and Iwnt weren't foreign land.
Or are you saying that the Palermo stone doesn't really reference or talk about Punt or Pwenet? but Ta-Seti and Iwnt.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Calm down. My vision ain't what it used to be But I'm far far from blind, thank you. What's circled in red? Are you sure Punt's there?
Sahure's reign's Punt merchandise list isn't even on the side shown. It's on the other side.
What's encircled doesn't name any countries. It's about 5 of Sneferu's building projects.
Don't get hung up on thowsticks. Don't expect writing uniformity over 3000 yrs of history.
The Khasekhemwy stele definitely has Ta Seti. Royal Annals Stone Sneferu has either Ta Seti or Iwnt. Right now I favor Iwnt. <<BZTK! wrong>> Whatever the case, it's followed by Nehes.
Again, the Royal Annals Stone mentions Pwenet regarding some merchandise in Sahure's time. And the signs spelling pwnt aren't exactly the ones one might expect.
posted
Another thread about an ancient people and culture that didn't exist: "Nubia".
Nubia is a modern geopolitical term used to reference areas in the South of Egypt and Northern Sudan. But there was no place called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley prior to AD time frames.
There also was no "A Group" or "C Group" either.
So, in that context, the only named entity we know of for certain in the predynastic for what came to be known as "Nubia" was Ta Seti. Ta Seti was an actual name for a population engaged in gold trading and other trading activities along the Nile. This culture basically is descended from ancient populations inhabiting the area between Wadi Kubanniya and Wadi Halfa on the Nile. This corresponds to roughly the area between Aswan and the Sudanese border. And it is between these two locations that you find the oldest settlement sites on the Nile.
quote: In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers.
Note that the use of "Egypt", "Sudan" or "Nubia" in reference to any of these cultures is purely for modern geographical reference and has absolutely nothing to do with the ancient people or culture. All of the earliest sites of human activity along the Nile prior to the Dynastic era are in the South along the Nile between Upper Egypt and Sudan. So in that context, "Ta Seti" is simply the earliest known proto-state that arose from this area of human habitation going back tens of thousands of years to a time when that part of the Nile was a refuge for human settlement. Over time the Saharan wet phase began again and other populations moved to the Sahara and as the Sahara dried up humans shifted back to this area of the Upper Nile. And that is where the "A-Group" culture is labeled. But there was no "A-Group" because it implies A signifies the first in a sequence as in the first letter of the alphabet, but that is totally misleading and erroneous. History in that region of the Nile was many thousands of years older than that and so later cultures in the region cannot be the "first" in any sequence of culture or evolution.
As time went on this area dried up and the people moved north, along with other groups previously in other areas of the Nile and Sahara. And from that came the origins of the dynastic culture.
Unfortunately whenever you read the history of the Nile, the terms "Nubia", "Egypt" and "Sudan" are constantly used which only serves to muddy the water and cause confusion. There were no such countries, state borders or cultures along the NIle in 20,000 BC. People moved freely as the seasons and environments changed. That nomadic lifestyle and semi-nomadic lifestyle was the predominant lifestyle for most of human history and why using modern fixed borders as labels makes absolutely no sense.
quote: The African origins of Egyptian civilisation lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. A re-examination of the chronology, assisted by new AMS determinations from Neolithic sites in Middle Egypt, has charted the detailed development of these new kinds of society. The resulting picture challenges recent studies that emphasise climate change and environmental stress as drivers of cultural adaptation in north-east Africa. It also emphasises the crucial role of funerary practices and body decoration.
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