I am contemplating having an open discussion on my Youtube channel live (with egyptsearch.com members) this coming Wednesday April 29th at 9PM Eastern Standard Time (United States) concerning themes discussed in my first and second interview with Dr. S.O.Y. Keita. The purpose of this show is to discuss what was said in the video, and themes not addressed, that should have been addressed, in the video concerning ancient Km.t, biological affinities, linguistics, anthropology, etc.
I am opening the panel to members of Egyptsearch.com who are willing (i.e., brave enough ) to come on the channel and have this discussion publicly. You will need either a laptop/pc or smart phone with a webcam and microphone to participate. You don't not have to show your face if you do not want to.
Because I use streamyard, I can only have 6 people on the panel at once. So there are 5 slots open. If I can at least get two people to commit, I will schedule the show. Who wants to participate?
Brother Asar Imhotep in Egypt 2015
Original photo of Egyptian Madjay army in the Nubian Museum
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Im down but my expertise lies in the role of Ta-Seti in Ancient Egyptian history, not really genetics. TBH I think its an interesting subject that is really over looked and Id love to see it discussed and debated in a serious academic setting.
anyway Im not big on genetics but I can talk about some of the stuff that I know.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I appreciate it. I will set up the show today. I will message in your inbox on Egyptsearch the link to join the show panel. Just click that link 15 - 30 minutes before the show. I will do the same for others who want to join to fill up the slots if they choose.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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I will post this link in the original post as well. Again, for those who will be joining the panel, you will have a separate link sent to your inbox. I look forward to the dialogue.
Your profile doesn't allow me to send a private message. Can you send me an email to info (AT) asarimhotep.com ? I will send the link to you in your email. Thank you in advance.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Im down but my expertise lies in the role of Ta-Seti in Ancient Egyptian history, not really genetics. TBH I think its an interesting subject that is really over looked and Id love to see it discussed and debated in a serious academic setting.
anyway Im not big on genetics but I can talk about some of the stuff that I know.
posted
Hmm thats weird but yeah Ill sent it to your email
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Peace.
Your profile doesn't allow me to send a private message. Can you send me an email to info (AT) asarimhotep.com ? I will send the link to you in your email. Thank you in advance.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Im down but my expertise lies in the role of Ta-Seti in Ancient Egyptian history, not really genetics. TBH I think its an interesting subject that is really over looked and Id love to see it discussed and debated in a serious academic setting.
anyway Im not big on genetics but I can talk about some of the stuff that I know.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I look forward to seeing you all tonight. Remember to check your inbox for the instructions on how to get into the panel.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Thank you all to those who listened in, and of course those who participated. It was a very good build and I look forward to having you all, and more, back again in the near future.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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I asked a question on Herodotus saying Khemites were black with nappy hair & others apparently asked a similar question too. Amazingly some Euros and colored accomplices say Herodotus & others didn't know what they were seeing. We need more cultural issues discussed in forums.
-------------------- Tehutimes Posts: 115 | From: north america | Registered: Jan 2014
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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In the show I mentioned a verse from the Bible that is very telling on the origin of the ancient Egyptians. I couldn't find it last night because I was looking in the wrong book I published (it was in my text Nsw.t Bjt.j (2016)).
In Ezekiel 29: 13-14, it states:
"Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At he end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians fro the nations where they were scattered. I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom."
The word used for Upper Egypt in Hebrew is "patros" (Greek Pathoures, Phathores). It is a loan from Egyptian pA tA-rsy "the southern land." This areas was also known as tp-rsy "the south"; tp-rsj "the head; the north" (remembering that the "north" was our modern "south").
Thus, it was clear even for the Biblical writers that the Egyptians proper came from the south, which is arguablly "Nubia." This is the historical context that is missing in these debates. So when we juxtapose this to testimonies of Herodotus and others, there is no denying that the Egyptians are a branch of Nubian people and are Black Africans by modern standards. This flies in the face of the Abusir study, which only goes to show that those mummies were foreigners who became Egyptian citizens. No different than an Aztec Native American becoming a U.S. citizen and being buried in Oklahoma.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Technically all this is about semantics and wordplay. It is no different than calling East Africans "caucasians" and therefore not "Negroid". This is the game being played here with DNA. "Eurasian" DNA does not mean someone who looks like Charleton Heston (the 10 Commandments movie). If that was the case then most African Americans wouldn't be considered black Africans then. Likewise, Zainab Badawi would also not be considered a black African even though she has some non African ancestry. But when you introduce the term "black" in scientific settings these people will try and pretend that there is no merit behind discussing skin color. That allows them to keep up the game of using semantics and word games to obfuscate the obvious point that many of these ancient groups did not look like the average European, then or now and thus using labels like "Eurasian" is designed more for propaganda purposes than actual anthropological understanding. Because anthropology is supposed to show relationships between populations and certainly Nile Valley peoples in ancient times were not more related to Eurasians than Africans. Heck that even applies to modern light skinned Berbers in many cases.
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Jean-Philippe Gourdine, S.O.Y Keita, Jean-Luc Gourdine and Alain Anselin got the same exact results as Hawass et al., DNA Tribes and DNA Consultants when running STRs of the Armana mummy samples.
PEER VIEW SCIENTISTS (Jean-Philippe Gourdine, S.O.Y Keita, Jean-Luc Gourdine and Alain Anselin) RUN STR TESTS ON THE ARMANA MUMMIES AND REPLICATED THE RESULTS OF THE DNA TESTS PERFORMED BY HAWASS ET AL., DNA TRIBES AND DNA CONSULTANTS, ETHNIC GROUP (AFFINITY) PROBABILITY SSA (SUB SAHARAN AFRICAN).
Another question is the Yoruba/Ibadan that is continuously used as a "reference" population or proxy sub Saharan in these studies
the "Yoruba" from Ibadan are not a homogeneous population.
While studying I recently came across a reference that Ibadan was a major slave trading hub with populations captured and relocated to the area. Especially women who were kept in "harems" and doled out as favors to young men.
So how can an area so diverse be used as a "reference" population?
Also I did hear Razib Khan recently say that Yoruba because of their Eurasian admixture may not be a good reference population for SUB SAHARAN..
The question I have is there such a thing as a pure sub Saharan component?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Why not run the data with the North African option if we are dealing with geographically North African populations?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why does PopAffiliator's
Sub-Saharan Africa 47 Sub-Saharan Africa Unpublished
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The Lower Nile is considered as its own region though technically speaking it's a long, narrow, Saharan oasis.
Sudan, Chad, Niger, and Mali all, like Mauritania, have considerable landmass firmly in the Sahara.
Amarnas and Ramses&son have shown little affinity with populations to the west and above 20° north.
It's historically known pre/proto Tamazight speakers were mostly in the Delta and even in early-mid Late Kingdom times were mostly outside royalty until Ramses' Meshwesh slaves came into power (as Egyptianized nationals).
What paticular North Tropical and Mediterranean African populations would you like to see for to compare their STaRs with either set of Egyptian royal mummies?
I'm eager. No longer reliant on popSTR's limited data base, I now have many CODIS tables from many peer reviewed articles. I enjoy compiling comparitive tables, so ask away (open to any and everyone). I'll show you the actual individual populations' loci alleles not some vague 3-group percentage listing.
PopAffiliator 2 can show 5-group percentages but needs more than an 8 loci input to do it. Yes, one can fabricate filler but the results will be spurious.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Why not run the data with the North African option if we are dealing with geographically North African populations?
You can verify that files 79.csv and 8.csv are identical.
Help
Wow.. It's a misupload apparently. Have you tested it to see if the source itself uses the incorrect samples? You can do so by comparing scores for sri lanka and SSA, and if they're consistently identical, it's fugcked. I'm also guessing all of the unpublished populations were gathered by them. none of the samples are labeled within them.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The manufacturer of the MiniFiler will not sell the kit for any other than paternity/maternity purposes. Pusch (2010 & 2012) got around that by testing transgeneration samples for paternity/maternity proofs. Though excellent for gathering aDNA the manufacturer will not sell the kit for that use. Luckily the field has advanced and now uses ear bones and such to get their aDNA samples.
Since New Kingdom mummy aDNA was found by MiniFiler, only 8 loci were even possible to collect. The new superior PopAffiliator 2, will give the more accurate 5-group report but needs more than 8 loci to run. I don't use either version of PopAffiliator.
Why? Because I don't go for the X% this, Y% that, and Z% the other, popular kind of fluff. I want to know precise geographic population 'matches', near matches, hardly at all matches, and those out the ballpark no-matches.
STaR profiles shouldn't be thought of as haplotypes because confusion ensues with people thinking of STR profiles as if uniparental SNiP haplogroups. Witness the "Thuya gene" etc farce. Notice, offspring do not inherit their STR profile intact from one parent. An mtDNA or MSY/nrY chromosome SNP does and so can go extinct.
A STR profile can't go extinct since it never transfers in whole from parent to offspring. STR's are random.
They're a combination of both parents' profiles. Either one of the two allele value in a locus may come from either parent. Rarely does a single locus' two values come from one parent only and it's impossible for an entire 8 to 27 loci profile to come from one parent only. Very rarely an allele repeat value is that of neither parent.
All that is for the forum in general. Below is for 'Stro in particular.
Bulls-eye bruh!
Amarna/Ramses&son 3-group results seem to back up your inference that the 47 Inner Africans 79.csv file is a misupload and not used when actually running.
Please carry out your score comparison test as, honestly, I don't know how to conduct one. Thx.
Also I don't see how to contact the PopAffiliator 'keepers' who should be able to immediately answer and correct if the program is really running with Sri Lanka data in place of Inner Africa data.
It's historically known pre/proto Tamazight speakers were mostly in the Delta and even in early-mid Late Kingdom times were mostly outside royalty until Ramses' Meshwesh slaves came into power (as Egyptianized nationals).
Just curious what dynasty you are referring to here? Are you claiming that the Libyan dynasties were meshwesh descended? Because in the 3rd intermediate period there was a Northern confederation of Libyan groups called the Ma who ruled separate from the Theban Southern regions. During this time, lower Egypt was fragmented into various smaller kingdoms and coexisted with the Libyan 23rd Dynasty.
Of course most of these delta groups were very cosmopolitan including Syrians, Levantines, Greeks and other Europeans. it is hard to say how much language affiliation they had with proto-tamazigt which probably originated with nomadic groups further south and West of the Nile.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thx Doug.
The 3rd Intermediate (dynasties 21-25) was after the Ramses (dynasty 19) and the Ramesside (dynasty 20). I think this 'Ramses' family itself may have delta roots in contrast to Queen Aahmes Nefertari's Thebes dynasty 18, called "the greatest royal family to ever sit a throne anywhere at anytime" per Phaon Goldman's broadside Black Manhood ch8 p5, Annapolis: Tarharka Publishing Company, 1974
Ma, and the formerly enslaved Meshwesh egyptianized nationals are interchangeable terms for these Amazigh rulers over all of Ta Meri / Ta Wy. https://books.google.com/books?id=vhsNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA395&lpg=PA395&dq=buyuwawa [Once on there enter Meshwesh in the search box to find other incidents concerning them in that volume]
Yes, from the middle of Shoshenq III's reign in the 22nd dynasty until Shabaka's 25th dynasty, Ta Wy was disunited with various contemporaneous 'dynasties' at Hermopolis, Herakleopolis, Leontopolis, Sais, Tanis, and Thebes.
The 25th dynasty started during Shoshenq V's 22nd dynasty rule while the 12 year long 24th dynasty began during Osorkan V's 22nd dynasty regime.
It's historically known pre/proto Tamazight speakers were mostly in the Delta and even in early-mid Late Kingdom times were mostly outside royalty until Ramses' Meshwesh slaves came into power (as Egyptianized nationals).
Just curious what dynasty you are referring to here? Are you claiming that the Libyan dynasties were meshwesh descended? Because in the 3rd intermediate period there was a Northern confederation of Libyan groups called the Ma who ruled separate from the Theban Southern regions.
During this time, lower Egypt was fragmented into various smaller kingdoms and coexisted with the Libyan 23rd Dynasty.
. . . it is hard to say how much language affiliation they had with proto-tamazigt which probably originated with nomadic groups further south and West of the Nile.
posted
Looking at the 3rd intermediate period as a time of fragmentation makes what happened later with the rise of the 25th through the Assyrian invasions more understandable.
The 19th dynasties ethnic "roots" have been debated for quite some time. But just like any other time period the facts are distorted by mainstream sources in many ways. And this applies to almost everything in AE history. One aspect of this that I most often call out is the claim that the Seti Ist or Ramses II had delta roots. I doubt that very much based on things like the year 400 stela, which clearly state the opposite. Of course this starts with Ramses I.
quote: Originally called Pa-ra-mes-su, Ramesses I was of non-royal birth, being born into a noble military family from the Nile delta region, perhaps near the former Hyksos capital of Avaris. He was a son of a troop commander called Seti. His uncle Khaemwaset, an army officer, married Tamwadjesy, the matron of the Harem of Amun, who was a relative of Huy, the viceroy of Kush, an important state post. This shows the high status of Ramesses' family. Ramesses I found favor with Horemheb, the last pharaoh of the tumultuous Eighteenth dynasty, who appointed the former as his Vizier. Ramesses also served as the High Priest of Set– as such, he would have played an important role in the restoration of the old religion following the Amarna heresy of a generation earlier, under Akhenaten.
The year 400 stela states explicitly that Seti father of Ramses I was from the South and a commander of Medjay troops.... And as such was affiliated with the Temple of Set in the South at Nubt. It states this explicitly. Highly doubtful that this line started in the Delta but they may have been stationed there for military reasons....
But of course most of the assumptions of a Delta origin for this Dynasty are based on the misreading or mistranslation of the year 400 stela:
quote: Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti, beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.
The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King, the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay ,
"When you look at those MLI scores they basically describe how many times more likely you are to be related to X population than anywhere in the world so if you're if the score is 100 you're a hundred percent a hundred times more likely to be related to this group then that group if it's a thousand then it's a thousand the MLI scores for the mummies were really really really low, some of them in the single digits. When I take a DNA tribe's test the results it gives you for West Africa and West Central Africa are in the millions are in the millions so me it's like I'm a billion times more related to a Nigerian then any of these mummies are related to any place in sub-saharan Africa that's how low those numbers are and the numbers are so low it's like I'm more related to a Scandinavian than some of these mummies are. I'm more related to an Eskimo and with the numbers is that low, and when I say Eskimo I mean like literally. The numbers for an Eskimo with me would be 15 but then one of the mummy scores with West Africa is 8 it it gives you information that's not that useful it tells you it's African but you really can't pinpoint exactly what's going on, what it means. Their algorithm is also proprietary so and they don't even exist anymore". __________________________________
Is that ElMaestro on the lower left?
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Bro. Asar sorry I couldn't make it, I was helping my mom move some old furniture, it was kinda last minute. Next time for sure.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Peace and love, family. I just read another study by Johannes Krausse titled: "Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human populations"
The study claims that Holocene Saharans were only one-third African and the rest (or some of the rest) was Levantine, specifically Natufian. Something is amiss; their "Sub-Saharan" sample was Nigerian and South African...they also mention some unknown African population...
Let me stop there, perhaps somebody that understood it better can break it down for me because there's a lot that doesn't gel together.
Thanks.
-------------------- Cry in the dojo. Laugh on the battlefield. Posts: 45 | From: South Africa | Registered: Apr 2020
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"When you look at those MLI scores they basically describe how many times more likely you are to be related to X population than anywhere in the world so if you're if the score is 100 you're a hundred percent a hundred times more likely to be related to this group then that group if it's a thousand then it's a thousand the MLI scores for the mummies were really really really low, some of them in the single digits. When I take a DNA tribe's test the results it gives you for West Africa and West Central Africa are in the millions are in the millions so me it's like I'm a billion times more related to a Nigerian then any of these mummies are related to any place in sub-saharan Africa that's how low those numbers are and the numbers are so low it's like I'm more related to a Scandinavian than some of these mummies are. I'm more related to an Eskimo and with the numbers is that low, and when I say Eskimo I mean like literally. The numbers for an Eskimo with me would be 15 but then one of the mummy scores with West Africa is 8 it it gives you information that's not that useful it tells you it's African but you really can't pinpoint exactly what's going on, what it means. Their algorithm is also proprietary so and they don't even exist anymore" __________________________________
Is that ElMaestro on the lower left?
Why didn't you sign on and show your face and refute it? I only said there what i have said plenty of times and I gave a primer to that. For those that want to see the data:
-Go ahead and go to the DNA tribes article on Ramesses III and Unknown man E. -Go to page 5 -Notice the scores of 12.9 for Salishan...I made the mistake of calling them "Eskimos". IN any case they are aboriginal populations of North America with no known ancestry to ANY population of Africa. RUN THE NUMBERS.
-This would make Unknown man E more Salishan than Sahelian. -This would make Yuya about 1.5 times more Salishan than West African and about 15 times more likely to be Native American than Horn of African or Sahelian. -THis would make KV35EL more than twice as likely to be Native Americans than Sahelian, Horn of Africa or West African. -KV55 - 3 or more times more likely to be Native American than Horner or Sahelian. -Even Mestizo is like 10...which is higher than some of these mummies matches with Africa and the Middle East.
I dont have a European STR sample profile anymore but some of their numbers had higher connections to Africa than any of these mummies have to Africa. Which basically means the intra African Admixture EVENTS [North African aboriginals/Nile valley hunter gatherers/Saharan Pastoralist/Red Sea/ Levantine influx] that culminated in the creation of an Egyptian Autosomal STR profile No longer exists. It would be like trying to find a population in 5000 AD that carries the VERY SPECIFIC admixture event pattern found in African Americans....that is the distinct amalgamation of West African, West Central Africa, Sahelian ancestries with a bit of Central and South East African, a portion of Western European, and a small bit of Native American. In 3000 years you ware not going to find that when you trying to compare modern humans with Beyoku's future skeleton.
IMO.....This explanation makes SO MUCH SENSE when you look at the analysis of Y-Chromosome STR "Profiles".
Move to a different mummy. Here is the data for the Belgrade mummy.
Gene: No. of repeated motif The length of PCR products vWA 16/16 =151 bp/151 bp TH01 9/9.3 =195 bp/198 bp FESFPS 7/7 =222 bp/222 bp TPOX 9/11 =236 bp/244 bp CSF1PO 10/10 =307 bp/307 bp
Run with it.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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some people might want to go digging into old ES threads for DNA Tribes digest articles and then save it in a file as new screen shots. I had done the most screen shotting of them. When those image hosts go down they may be lost for good
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's totally not science to rely on DNAtribes MLI scores and Tribe scores aren't independently replicable by anyone and are terms outside of science.
In fact MLI was purposely designed to be confused with MLE --Maximum Likelihood Estimate-- a bona fide science term.
Anyone truly interested in the science will follow those links or continue on with sloppy pseudo scholarship.
The mummy profiles are available from the scientists who extracted the STRs.
Articles out there with tables including 13 or more STRs for a wide variety of populations can be downloaded and compared with Pusch's data.
That's something someone truly interested in and wanting scientific backing would run to not shy away from.
That's how it's, for instance, known that Thuya's MiniFiler STR profile is EXTANT in both living Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, as both Swenet (on Up Egy) and myself proved and anyone can easily confirm.
But of course, doing that will burst irrational DNAtribes based bubbles. The geographic breeding population tables compiled by reputable scientists yield fact and destroy supposition.
And so comparing them to Pusch's data for matches goes ignored, no shunned, lest personal biases go mask off for what they are, a holding of ego driven opinion as better than replicable science.
BTW vWA TH01 FESFPS and TPOX cannot be compared to Amarna/Ramses&son because none are captured by the MiniFiler kit.
Only Belgrade's CSF1PO can be compared and one homozygous locus ain't telling nothing except Ramses and 'Son' CSF1PO valeus are 7/10 and Gusma˜o's (2006) 90 Karimojong samples from Uganda carry CSF1PO at 27.4%.
Okolie's (2017) 102 Hausa samples have it at 21.08%. Her 128 Igbo's at 32.42% 134 Yoruba, 27.24%
But so what. CFS1PO is ubiquitous at ~25% Eastern Hemisphere wide.
Whoops I fudged up. E Asia was supposed to be solo its % is 22.9
Genetic Variation at 15 Autosomal STR Loci Among Seven Egyptian Populations
Samples of 814 unrelated individuals from Northern Coast, Delta, Greater Cairo, Canal governorates, Northern Upper Egypt, Southern Upper Egypt, and Sinai were investigated.
If someone has the time to compare these egyptian samples with the mummy data be my guest.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why not try it for yourself (assuming you bought AbdEl-Hafez)? You'll be surprised how easy it is. Gets tedious and eye strain makes ya wanna holler throw up both ya hands and a 2nd or 3rd pair of eyes no not glasses and contacts helps keep 'operator error' down. Can't wait to see your comparison table.
Currently for Egypt I have * Ebaid 2014 * Omran 2009 * Tahaa 2018 and for Sudan only * Babiker 2011 Ossowski 2017 is a stingy tease. The rest r all fo free! Savin my $$$ for me woman entertainment rum & cigars.
“Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%)”.
Citation Source: Trombetta et al 2011. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) PLoS ONE 6(1): e16073.
The Western media has remained silent on this BMJ study, which is in sharp contrasts to the way the Abusir results were celebrated.
Quote:
“For group E, we observe a geographic gradient from west to east as well as a partitioning from south to north.The sample collections from the western sub-Saharan populations (Benin and Bamileke) are represented exclusively by group E, whereas the frequencies of these chromosomes are somewhat lower in the east (94.2%, 85.1%, 81.4%, and 82.8% for the Hutu, the Tutsi, Tanzania, and Kenya, respectively) and drop sharply in the northern-most populations of Egypt (39.5%) and Oman (23.1%)”.
Citation Source: The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
Note: E1b1a, is not most common among ethnics groups of Ethiopia and East Africa, but most common among West, South and Central Africans as well as African-Americans.
Tomb painting of Rameses III before Horus, Valley of the Queens, Luxor, Egypt, c12th century BC. from the tomb of a prince (a son of Rameses III).
Quote:
“The 2012 study published in the BMJ done on the mummified remains of Ramesses III and his son determined that both y-chromosomes belonged to Haplogroup E1b1a (Y-DNA). The pharaoh’s y-chromosome belongs to the most frequent haplogroup among contemporary Sub-Saharan y-chromosomes”.
Source: Hawass (2012). "Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.
Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramesses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies.
I ran the data sets through PopAffiliator2 myself and here are the results:
16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies. Ramesses III and Unknown man E are haplogroup E-M2 orderly E1b1a.
As previously mentioned, back in 2012, a study conducted by Zahi Hawass et al. published in the BMJ demonstrates that the Pharaoh Ramesu (Ramesses III) – who ruled around 1200 BC, carries the E-M2 (E1b1a) gene, which is an African gene. This gene is quasi-specific to populations of Africa south of Sahara and to Africans in the Americas. It is maximal among Angolans for example.
Quote:
“Our analysis showed that Ramesses III and unknown man E shared the same paternal lineage and had identical alleles at autosomal markers, strongly suggesting that they were father and son. However, based on the genetic testing, any differentiation among the several sons of Ramesses III was not possible. Historically, Pentawere was the only son who revolted against his father in contrast to all his brothers. According to the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, Pentawere was involved in the harem conspiracy, was found guilty at trial, and then took his own life”.
“The unusual mummification process of unknown man E, including the ritually impure use of a goat skin to cover the body, could be interpreted as evidence for a punishment in the form of a non-royal burial procedure. Together with the genetically proven family relationship with Ramesses III, we therefore believe that unknown man E is a good candidate for Pentawere”.
Citation Source: Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study
“Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor (Haplogroup Predictor), we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2)”.
Citation Source: Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e826
Quote:
“Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker”.
Citation Source: Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268.
Missing values=18
Note: Of the 34 values expected, 16 were provided, meaning 16 were usable (47.058823529412%). In other words, only ~47% of the required STRs were provided.If more STRs are provided the reliability percentages will go up…..but based upon what is provided the result is accurate to greater than 90%. So, at the very least, we know the Armana family is 47% so-called sub-Saharan.Keep in mind, each geographic population ie “race” has STRs profile that are UNIQUE to them.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
For a man of your calibre it shan't take 3 hrs the way that Town Hall did.
We all make time for what we wanna do.
If its not important enough for u 2 do I darn sure ain't doin it for u!
Oh, did I forget to thank you for the link?
Thank you, thank you very much!
Must say I like Tahaa's 1000 samples more robust that abdEl-Hafez's 814.
Honestly I prefer Omran's UpEgy only samples. Why? UpEgy is expected to harbor more descendants of AE not a majority of invader,immigre and metis. individuals. That Stacked Deck skew thing Zarahan harps about.
Yet UpEgy gets tabled in abdEl-Hafez so it should be good to go, I expect but will crosscheck against Omran for any possible loci and value omissions.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
uh oh
did somebody invent a D3 Ramses locus not in the MiniFiler kit?
and a D8 Unknown Man locus not in the MiniFiler kit either?
that ain't cricket.
there only 16 alleles in Pusch's article popaffiliator 2 will not work with 16 alleles
fabricating nonexistent loci and fudging their values is cheating pending what plucked out of thin air locus with arbitrary values for em will vary the outcome
Ramses GLOBAL (potatoes -- IDing currently Atlantic Europe alleles in bottom table ______________________________CAU=Circassian NIta=Bergamo USA=yte ppl)
Ramses AFRICA (meat --IDing currently Inner African specific alles; very PanAfrican eh?)
Per popStr Ram's D7=15 allele is currently a trace element in the Dominican Republic. His FGA=34.2 off-ladder allele has gone EXTINCT (Beyoku take note!). For those into percentages: * 56.25% African * 18.75% Euro * 12.50% EurAsian (Basque France EAsia) * 06.25% Americas (presumed Taino) * 06.25% EXTINCT
Precisions invited. Like Ramses's Afr hi frequency allele count in the Global table is actually 5 not 4 as tabled.
I can't shrink this pic cuz its a combination of pictures that are hard to find and illegible when smaller. This is the one thing I regret not mentioning on the panel. DnaTribes wasn't just the daring company that decided to run ancient Egyptians STRs and publish them, they were on the cutting edge of population genetics.
The Wikipedia admin Doug Weller, took DNATribes down while they were at the top of the field. Wikipedia's main source for the origin of haplogroups is Isogg and they still have a copy of Dnatribe's old Wikipedia page.
But anyhoo the reason the image combo is important is it shows what I was talking about when I said North Africa (and east Africa as Byoko mentioned) gets no love. When you isolate the most homogeneous European, Asian and American genetic population you find their relatives in Africa and likewise you find the most homogenous Africa population everywhere. This is why I I would bet that even if the Abo folks are totally incorrect you would still find indigenous mtdna L in America like you find A in Africa.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
I think that A2 lineage is the only singleton ever found, IMO one lineage in a modern human is not going to change the narrative. I think its more likely this individual was a returned admixed African American. IMO your argument makes no sense. It's not even ancestral A* but rather the sublclade A2. Under what reasoning does a singleton mtdna lineage in west Africa become the most represented maternal lineage in the New world from Eskimos to Southern Americans and all in-between?
Also we have a few hundred ancient dna samples from Native Americans going back some 14,000 years.
In a consistent sampling of American ancient DNA there is not an L lineage to be found until we get to the colonial age. BTW this study even has some of the samples that have African morphology.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
I don't understand it to much TBH but I like that you're dropping knowledge bro, please continue to educate and share your info.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Are any of these tables so far posted helpful to anybody or should I just keep the info to myself?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thx Jari. Pls aks me some questions. Just cos it's all transparent to me don mean eberbod else sees what I can see. Or for that matter see anything at all!
Without others interpretations, critiques, and questions, which are all invaluable feedback, it's just a lonely exercise of mental masturbation with aDNA STaRs of My Fantasies (link).
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I think that A2 lineage is the only singleton ever found, IMO one lineage in a modern human is not going to change the narrative. I think its more likely this individual was a returned admixed African American. IMO your argument makes no sense. It's not even ancestral A* but rather the sublclade A2. Under what reasoning does a singleton mtdna lineage in west Africa become the most represented maternal lineage in the New world from Eskimos to Southern Americans and all in-between?
Also we have a few hundred ancient dna samples from Native Americans going back some 14,000 years.
In a consistent sampling of American ancient DNA there is not an L lineage to be found until we get to the colonial age. BTW this study even has some of the samples that have African morphology.
A was also found on a 23andme heat map.
If it was a higher resolution A2 it would say more about the branch. A pure A2 is pretty early. The return theory is plausible with the heat map near Liberia. Though I'm not sure when you have it on the Sinai Peninsula. I also don't know what it takes to register on a heat map. Is it 1 person or 1 percent? If its 1 percent I would consider this to be a strag of some sort from an African or near African origin.
If L is found in the ancient Americas I expect it to be less than half of 1 percent and only in certain regions and it wouldn't surprise me if its not found. The only reason I suspect it might is the possibility of a Greenland type of east to west ice age migration.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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