CAIRO — Libyan security forces again fired on a funeral procession through the city of Benghazi on Sunday, as residents buried dozens of dead from a crackdown the day before and as a five-day-old uprising against the dictatorship of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi appeared to spread to other cities along the Mediterranean coast.
The number of confirmed deaths around the country rose to at least 173, according to a running tally by the independent group Human Rights Watch. But several people in Benghazi hospitals, reached by telephone, said they believed as many as 200 had been killed and more than 800 wounded there on Saturday alone. Witnesses indicated that many had been killed by machine-gun fire.
I read today that some groups in Egypt are getting together supplies to take to Libya. Imagine, just being through a Revolution and then they are right there for their next door neighbor, with a helping hand! Bless them!
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement BREAKING CONFIRMED: Protestors in Zawia has burned down Gaddafi's house and now heading towards Tripoli. #feb17 #gaddaficrimes #libya
MuchoAroha LaniD by Hady75 BREAKING BREAKING: Heavy heavy GUNFIRE in Tripoli RIGHT NOW! - #feb17 #libya - libyafeb17.com/?p=1223 3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi by sorin Reports that another tribe, the Hasawna, have abandoned #Gaddafi and joined the protesters #Feb17 #Libya 2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Ayonadre Rania #Libya n ambassador to #Arab League has resigned in protest. Honourable man. 2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
ReggieNel Reggie Nel by paulcomac Oh dear ! RT @Dima_Khatib: Witness tells AlJazeera.net: a plane full of mercenaries leaves Harare Airport in #Zimbabwe headed to #Libya 4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Bloody Hell!
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
He's going down. After all that blood the people are not going to be merciful.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Am watching AJE now...
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Des armes sont distribuées par le régime aux citoyens de la ville natale de Kadhafi SIRT! Bientôt la guerre civile
Weapons are distributed to citizens by the regime of Gaddafi's hometown SIRT! Soon the Civil War Listen
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Do you think Gaddafi will try and run away?
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
RickTVnet RickSanchez NewsFeed RT "We can hear gun shots from #Gaddafi's residence in Bab Aziziyaa in Tripoli" #Libya / via @AJELive 2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Dima_Khatib Dima Khatib أنا ديمة by Raheeb كتيبة الصاعقة التي أعلنت لسكان بنغازي انشقاقها عن الجيش الليبي تقول إنها دحرت كتيبة الفضل بن عمر، وهي معسكر تابع للجيش #libya #feb17 13 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Do you think Gaddafi will try and run away?
After Egypt I stopped making predictions and political analyses. Anything is possible.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
What makes this even more horrendous (in terms of deaths and casualties) is Libya's entire population is less that the city of Alex..around 6 million I believe.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
BENGHAZI celebrates
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Ok this is funny
لابد ان تحصل المرأة على جميع حقوقها سواء كانت ذكر ام انثى" - القذافي
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Do you think Gaddafi will try and run away?
Gaddafi is a firm leader of his country, and he will not tolerant this, he'd rather kill his people than stand down. He is not a leader to be messed with.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Do you think Gaddafi will try and run away?
Gaddafi is a firm leader of his country, and he will not tolerant this, he'd rather kill his people than stand down. He is not a leader to be messed with.
It doesn't make any difference what he is. There are news that army divisions have defected, the Minster of Interior also defected and several tribal leader joined the masses and these tribes are armed. I don't care how criminal he is, he is nothing without the support of the Army and the police. He's toast.
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi by seabird7 Head of Zwiya tribe on Aljazeera live from #Tripoli issues ultimatum to #Gaddafi, in 24 hours we'll stop all oil exports from #Libya #Feb27 3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Elserari Huda Elserari by voodoo_44 الان الشباب في بنغازي يتجولون بالدبابات في شارع جمال عبدالناصر وفي ايديهم اسلحة خفيفة غنموها من كتيبة الفضيل #libya #25jan #egypt 9 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Youth in Benighazi are driving tanks around the city and carrying light arms.
Think4Freedom Ano Nymous by 1igel BREAKING Police stations in #Tripoli are being burned down now #Benghazi #libya #feb25 @bencnn @BBCWorld @BBCBreaking @BBC RT @LibyanThinker
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Thank you for this thread. I didn't know it existed.
Re: Benighazi youth driving tanks.
I saw a video via #jan25 of Libyan soldiers joining Libyan pro-democracy demonstrators in Benighazi. This seems to be the same situation that has happened in Tunisia and Egypt. The military is split.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Libya's Ambassador to China resigns on air
Well, maybe not the Ambassador but close enough
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
_FatTony_ Fat Tony #Libya بعد ساعات قليلة سترون بثا حيا من شرق ليبيا، طواقم تلفزيونية تفكر في عبور الحدود من مصر ، يوجد تردد وجدل طبيعي بين متحمس للدخول ومتأنيd
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Wow! Benighazi Fell to Pro-Democracy Protestors. Wow! With no internet and no press.
Crazy rumors Qaddaffi fled. Sorry ya Masr but it looks like your 18 days record is going to be broken. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Reports Libyan Capital fell to Pro-Democracy protestors.
wow. so fast.
AJ Live
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Are you watching Saif Live. Why is addressing the nation? Where is Ghadafy?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
The son is supposed to be on tv live now..
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Are you watching Saif Live. Why is addressing the nation? Where is Ghadafy?
Last I heard he fled to Venezulea. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: The son is supposed to be on tv live now..
OK, that's just pathetic He's just rambling like and idiot telling stories about foreign conspiracy.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
what dream land do these nuts live in?
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Popcorn please........it looks like he's going to be a while. Somebody shoot him already!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: what dream land do these nuts live in?
LOL. You listening to this crap!
How despicable a president letting his son speak for him.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
*making popcorn* then the story is very dangerous....kids trying to imitate what happened in Egypt and Tunisia...ARGGGG
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: what dream land do these nuts live in?
LOL. You listening to this crap!
How despicable a president letting his son speak for him.
seriously...why is he speaking???? and not the old man!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: what dream land do these nuts live in?
LOL. You listening to this crap!
How despicable a president letting his son speak for him.
seriously...why is he speaking???? and not the old man!
I have no idea, rumors are Qaddafi fled. This guy is going on and on and on.....
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Tweets have turned into amazement at his idiocy. I'm embarrassed for Libyans. Seriously!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Gaddafi's son: how could you travel throughout libya? You'd need a visa. Be prepared to not visit your families, like North/South Korea
and now they are all drug addicts...LOOOL
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Ok This HAS to go down in history as the MOST INSANE SPEECH ever given!!!!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
The speech in full, text and video.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Ok This HAS to go down in history as the MOST INSANE SPEECH ever given!!!!
I agree. Can you believe Arabs were ruled by the likes of these dunces. The common denominator of Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya = (fed up people + sympathetic military)
Goodnight. Can't wait to wake up
Can't believe it'll soon be 3.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Who are the players in Libya? Is there a strong military with known leaders? There's gotta be somebody with a bit of brain to end this farce
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
عاجل ليبيا / شعار ليبيا أصبح " الشعب يريد علاج الرئيس "
الهتافات في ليبيا : الشعب يريد إسقاط العبيط
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
5:59 am Shortly after Seif Gaddafi gave his speech on state television, a caller from Libya had this conversation with a Libyan outside of the country, which was recorded and distributed to journalists. The caller describes ongoing combat in the capital after Seif Gaddafi's speech warned of "civil war" if protests continued. The audio format is problematic to upload, so here's a partial transcript:
Caller: It started in Kalifiya [indechipherable], Bershouz [sp?], Fashloum, Bahara [sp?], all those areas went out, where to Kalifiya, from there they moved and they could actually - [gunfire in background] Listen to that.
Interviewer: Yeah I can hear the gunshots.
Caller: Yeah.
Int: Yeah.
Caller: Yeah, now this is bullshit. This is heavy weaponry I'm talking about, heavy artillery.
Int: I'm going to be sending this clip to journalists so don't use your name or don't identify anyone.
Caller: i'm not.. Ok, ok, do whatever you want.
Int: Just tell me about the tension.
Caller: What I hear is a lot of people screaming. I hear some... They're all anti-regime supporters, all of them are protesters, and all I hear is gunshots, heavy artillery, sounds like machine guns, and it just escalated right now. It was somewhat peaceful, you can hear like - [Int: What happened after the speech?] - you can hear sporadic gunfire.
Caller: You can hear sporadic gunfire here and there, but now it's constant - [Int: Yeah] - and it's not stopping at all.
Int: Yeah what triggered it, was this after the speech?
Caller: This is right after the speech, and then like, also, Libyan TV it says ... breaking news: Tens of thousands of pro-Gaddafi supporters are trickling down into the city, Green Square, after Seif Islam's speech, meaning that they're supporting what he said.
Int: Was that true?
Caller: So like they're waging war against the pro-democracy supporters.
Int: But are those numbers inflated?
Caller: Yeah it's just scare tactics, they're intimidate- did you listen to the speech?
Int: Yes I did.
Caller: Yeah they were just intimidating people.
Int: Can you hear the voices?
Caller: [gunfire] This is non-stop, non-stop. And there's also reports that they're going into hospitals. What they said is that they went to Misrata and they killed four doctors there.
Call #1: We need some intervention! It’s going to be a bloodbath
Man: Yes!
Woman: Hey, go! go!
Man: Okay, go on, we’re recording!
Man 2: It’s gonna be a blood bath, right now there are thousands going down to Gaddafi’s compound, in Tripoli, chanting his name. They have killed people. They’re willing to die for him. They’re willing to go and lay down their life. And right now nobody knows who’s who, the army will split. They (unclear) right now in downtown Tripoli, it doesn’t stop, and it’s anti-aircraft weapons, and heavy gun fire and ak-47s. Guys, we need us some intervention here. There (unclear) thousands, tens of thousands.
Man: Tens of thousands who are supporting him?
Man 2: Tens of thousands of victim Libyans? Of every Libyan who’s facing a gun. Every Libyan who’s going out to the Green Square. Every Libyan who’s going to come cross this man, his son is talking while gunfire is erupting. This is Libya tomorrow This is Libya tomorrow
Man: oh my gosh…
Man: What else? What else can you tell us?
Man 2: Just send it out! Just send it out! We need intervention, send it out now
[Call drops]
——————————————–
Call #2: It was a decoy, they were shooting at protesters while the speech was being aired
Transcript:
Man: Go on
Woman: Did you hear nothing from the recording?
Man: I.. I only heard the first part properly, but the rest of it was very choppy.
Woman: But could you make out what he was saying?
Man: Not completely, this is what I’m saying, if I could..
Woman: make a transcript, that’s how the connection was
Man: Okay, I’ll do that, I’ll do that
Woman: It is a lot more authentic that way anyway, it is what it is
Man: Okay, fair enough, so he was.. Where, was he shooting at them while he was speaking?
Woman: It started.. When did the shooting start? [unclear]
Woman: I know it’s still shooting but when did it start? [..] From the start of Saif’s talk. Ane I did think it was a [arabic word] it was a decoy. Maybe it’s a decoy like ah, if some people in [..] been listening to him, they can gain some ground on them
Man: So, so while they were giving the talk they were shooting at the people in the Saha Al Khadra
Woman: Yeah we were hearing gunfire
Man: You were hearing gunfire, and can I just..
Woman: Didn’t I write to you earlier there was lots of gunfire at 01:10am, he started at 01:00am
Man: Okay
Woman: (I wrote) I hope he doesn’t distract the people so he could kill the others still out there with lower numbers.
Man: And can I just ask, did What’s-his-name confirm that one of his friends actually turned against the protesters?
Woman: No no no that guy never made a secret that he was pro-Gaddafi
Man: Okay, so he’s never made a secret that he was pro-Gaddafi but he made contact and said that they had killed people?
Woman: Basically he was going out with all his family…
Man: Speak in English, speak in English
Woman: Okay there are lots of people who’ve been benefitting a lot from this thuggish system
Man: okay, yes
Woman: and so those people who’ve been benefitting from this system of course they don’t want it to end because they get a lot from absolutely being nothing
Man: Of course
Woman: And so these people actually do support him because if he goes then the people realize they can treat them exactly as they are
Woman: Ahm, this friend he’s actually like an ex drug dealer or he is a drug dealer actually, they, his family, and loads of young people from Abu Sleem whatever, they’re coming out and like their going to even like lay their lives on the line for Gaddafi till the very end. And like the only thing that they have is like Gaddafi and they’re willing to do anything and they’ve already killed people
Man: Oh my gosh
Woman: on the way, they’re all heading towards, you know, his compound base here in Tripoli and they are basically not holding back in killing and like just ruthless showing their support to him laying their lives on the line for him in front of his you know (base)
Man: Oh gosh
Woman: And they’ve already killed people and they have swords and things, so uhm, what’s his name was telling him, you know “Would you kill me?” you know “Would you really do that? Would you kill me, your friend?” and the guy was like “Okay I would not kill you but… you know my loyalty is to him”
Man: Oh my gosh
Woman: You know, kind of things, uhm so yeah so far there’s been loads of artillery and heavy machinery and what looks like machine guns firings and they haven’t stopped at all some of them are quite loud bangs, almost like bomb sounding. So yeah, I don’t know.. that’s what’s happening.
Man: Okay, Okay, is he there?
Woman: no he left
Man: He’s gone back out again?
Woman: yes
Man: Oh my gosh
Woman: I know! Look, at least..at least were, Sidi Khaleefa this area we’re aiming for it to be safe
Man: Yes!
Woman: Because he’s been (?) there’s loads of these people basically just budding in killing! that’s all they’re doing!
Man: Right
(unclear) before the speech
Woman: We’ve got (?) basically now with the shooting that there is, listening to Al Jazeera, there’s already been a few deaths in Saha Al Khadra and Omar Al Mukhtar street We don’t know how many it will be a complete blood bath tonight,
Man: yeah
Woman: and please don’t let anyone…He said basically they’re going to continue until the very last, even you, taking the very last woman and child, he’s made no secret of that.
Man: So the.. until the very last woman and child?
Woman: Who opposes the system
Man: Who opposes them
Woman: So.. they made absolutely no secret of that and that’s why I knew and from what I’m hearing it is going to be a blood bath. Tonight, it’s Tripoli’s turn.
Man: Okay, okay, I think you’ve given us more than enough. I am going to just go through this, edit it, remove the names, and put it up and I am going to send it to everyone.
Woman: Can you put it up on the website?
Man: I’ll put it up on the website, I’ll send it to Al Jazeera, I’ll send it to the BBC, I’ll send it to CNN, I’ll send it to everyone.
Woman: Say that this speech that he gave is a (unclear) completely because it played on what the system has sowed in people over these years, just being themselves. And he basically just gave them an ultimatum. The ultimatum was you either agree, you come back under our reign, by your own will or we take it by force and we will not hold back in killing until the very last one of you.
Breaking News CNN: Protesters in Libyan capital ransack Libyan state television HQ, media reports quoting witnesses say. ---------------------------------------------
The madman used helicopters, used African mercenaries against his people. And the Pro-Democracy protestors remain relentless.
Powerful tribes, siding with pro-democracy protestors.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^^"he used ..Africans?" Are you nuts or just a Turk? Libya is Africa..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Yeah, but technically, if Exiiled were talking about the UK, and he said "he used Europeans" that would mean European, non-UK residents. Doesn't mean the UK suddenly isn't part of Europe.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^"he used ..Africans?" Are you nuts or just a Turk? Libya is Africa..
Bringing in mercenaries only infuriated the public more. Also infuriated the tribes and even Libyan diplomats, some of whom are resigning in protest.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
LIBYA'S ambassador to China, Hussein Sadiq al Musrati, says Muammar Gaddafi may have left Libya.
Al Jazeera says Libya's ambassador to China, Hussein Sadiq al Musrati, resigned on air with Al Jazeera Arabic.
He reportedly called on the army to intervene, and has called all diplomatic staff to resign, the site said.
He said a gunfight between Mr Gaddafi's sons occurred and also claimed that Mr Gaddafi may have left Libya.
Wow. Mubarak's sons apparently had fisticuffs too... Seems they use the same PR agency...
Good Stuff Monkey. Also earlier Libyan Ambassador to India resigned. -------------------------------
Majority of ranking officers defect. - AJ Arabic Live (quoting senior security official)
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Senior Army official in Benghazi:
“Daily life is stable and back to normal in Benghazi, the city is under the control of the people and Army defectors, schools are open, market places are open”
He was asked was Saif Qaddafi accurate when he said the Army was on Qaddafi side, he replied:
“That is false, to my knowledge the Army has defected”
AJ Live
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Libya: Basic Info
Population: 6.2 million (5 million Libyans)
GDP: $13,800
Literacy Rate: 82%
Unemployment 21% (2009 source: Tripoli Post)
Life Expectancy77.47 Years
Ethnic groups: Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians
Religions: Sunni Muslim 97%
Languages: Arabic, Italian, English, all are widely understood in the major cities
2- Over 38,000 km3 of underground water that can supply Libya for an eon (okay about 12,000 years). This is based on their yearly water consumption (3.00 km3).
The great news is the infrastructure (Great Man Made River) to deliver the water to cities and towns is in place. It cost over 25 Billion dollars, but definitely well worth it. http://www.galenfrysinger.com/man_made_river_libya.htm
3- Large natural gas reserves and production. About 15 Billion Cubic meter. It consumes appoxamately 5.5 Billion, and exports 10 Billion annually. Source: CIA factbook (link above)
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^ Peace is back in Benghazi. The war is over!
Africans win again!!!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
^ Darn it. Should have put a bet on the Africans winning Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
sharifkouddous Sharif Kouddous by O_Najjar Crowd prevented from protesting directly in front of #Libya embassy. Army trucks, soldiers blocking access to street. #Egypt 3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Problems @ Egypt border with Libya. Egyptian army preventing Egyptian activists from crossing over with aid. - AJ Live
Al-Zawiya fell to pro-democracy protesters, police fled. AJ Live.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
with extremely limited news sources inside the country, I can only imagine what the REAL death count will be Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I thought Egyptians were so brave in what they did (still do) but the courage of the Libyans in what they are now encountering is beyond belief!!!! God be with them!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I thought Egyptians were so brave in what they did (still do) but the courage of the Libyans in what they are now encountering is beyond belief!!!! God be with them!
The Egyptian revolution seems like a cakewalk compared to what the madman is throwing at his people. Helicopter machine gunfire, snipers, sub-Saharan African mercenaries, etc. There's no turning back, the ugly thug is going down.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
************WARNING VERY GRAPHIC****************
Please don't watch this pic. It is TOO GRAPHIC. A man is shot with a 50mm bullet.
Let the world see what Qadaffi the Murderer is doing to his people.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Oh my God.......
Anyone in two minds, please don't look at it. I think that's the worst thing I've ever seen.
I used to work for RTA insurers and I thought I was pretty unshakeable.
It's a horrendous image.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Dima_Khatib Dima Khatib أنا ديمة by egyptenguiden Reuters: 2 Libyan fighter jets landed unexpectedly in Malta on Monday, both single seater Mirage jets #libya #malta #feb17
Air force defecting?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Dima_Khatib Dima Khatib أنا ديمة by egyptenguiden Reuters: 2 Libyan fighter jets landed unexpectedly in Malta on Monday, both single seater Mirage jets #libya #malta #feb17
Air force defecting?
I'm not sure. This article (malta times) mentions refueling.
There are unconfirmed reports that jets have bombed Army barracks.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Military Jets firing on protestors in Tripoli this very minute. Reports of massacre. AJ live
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Sandmonkey Mahmoud Salem by alaskaRP Dear protesters, tomorrow has to focus on the army preventing a medical supply convo from passing to libya. #jan25 #libya #egypt 28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Interesting thing about Sandmonkey, he's now publishing his name and picture. 'Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Military Jets firing on protestors in Tripoli this very minute. Reports of massacre. AJ live
JETS firing?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
# jonathanfryer Eyewitnesses say military aircraft being used to fire on protestors in #Tripoli. Regime seems prepared to massacre #Libya Twitter - seconds ago # xs2health RT @no_to_war: AJEnglish: Libyan aircraft fires on protesters in #Tripoli!! #Libya Twitter - seconds ago # actronx RT @LibyanDictator CONFIRMED: AIR STRIKES BEING USED AGAINST PROTESTERS IN #TRIPOLI. #Libya #Feb17 Twitter - seconds ago # abdo #Tripoli is being air bombed? Oh dear God please let it be lies. This can't be true... Twitter - seconds ago
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I hope that's wrong. We saw completely inaccurate tweets when the Egyptian revolution was going on.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Laura: [qb] blah blah blah... machine gunfire, snipers, sub-Saharan African mercenaries, etc. There's no turning back, the ugly thug is going down.
A racist Turko like you insulting Africans on their own contnent should never talk about freedom and equality.
Africans win again, and you Turko, shall fall from tyranny to double oppression!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
William Hague: seen some information to suggest Libyan President Muammar Gaddafi had fled the country and was on his way to Venezuela
Guess he follows Twitter too
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
WT...
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
It makes sense. Air force receives orders to bomb protesters. Fighter jets land in Malta. Read defectors. Planes bomb protesters.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
If you bomb protestors... you're bombing your own city... you're bombing yourself.
Psychopath.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^Liars..
How many times have Ghadafi ordered Libyans to be bombed in the past?
Liars and lizards...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I hope that's wrong. We saw completely inaccurate tweets when the Egyptian revolution was going on.
It's confirmed on Al-Jazeera. Machine gun fire as well as bombing in parts of Tripoli by Military Jets.
Libyan Ambassador to UK resigned from his post.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: It makes sense. Air force receives orders to bomb protesters. Fighter jets land in Malta. Read defectors. Planes bomb protesters.
I think it also said that 2 helicopters landed at the same time. French Nationals onboard. Maybe the jets were just following in order to ensure their safety?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I went to Malta when the Libya thing was on before and our plane was guided in to land by two fighters. Not Libyan though, I'm fairly sure.
Come to think of it, I flew over Bosnia the day before the war started there and the same thing happened. Again, in that case I'd presume it was a US or UN escort, in those cases at least.
Maybe it was the same thing here? Were they definitely Libyan fighters?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I wonder how they are going to evacuate those who want to leave. Just saw tweet that a Turkish Airliner was trying to land for evacuees and was denied permission to land! Are they doing this for all airlines?
Also, I just don't get how these ppl on television can just sit there commenting on the situation like they were exchanging cake recipes!!!!! I have knots in my stomach just watching some of this stuff!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Libyan Ambassador to Indonesia reigns in protests. AJ Live
Military jets bombing pro-democracy protestors in squares in Tripoli was preceded by cutting off of Cell Phone networks. AJ Live
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^Propaganda experts..
There is peace in Benghazi this morning...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think they give less of a toss about foreigners than they do about their own people. And look what they're doing to them.
I don't think I can watch anymore.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Propaganda experts..
There is peace in Benghazi this morning...
Benghazi is in the control of pro-democracy demonstartors. They drove out Qadaffi thugs.
The fight now is for the capital. Centering around main squares and also near Mad Dog Qaddafi residence.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Exile, you gonna be yet more years in exile cause peace has come back to Libya and big Brother is still in control...
Monitor your Facebook.. hehehe!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Report: Libya air force bombs protesters heading for army base
Libyan military aircraft fired live ammunition at crowds of anti-government protesters in Tripoli, Al Jazeera television reported on Monday, quoting witnesses for its information.
A Libyan man, Soula al-Balaazi, who said he was an opposition activist, told the network by telephone that Libyan air force warplanes had bombed "some locations in Tripoli".
No independent verification of the report was immediately available.
The protesters were reportedly heading to the army base to obtain ammunition of their own, but witnesses said the air force bombed the demonstrators before they could get there.....
Haaretz? Israel's leading newspaper? Where was Israel when the youths ran Mubaraka?
Zionist psychological-war games...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Note: The “Army Base” that protesters were marching towards includes army barracks AND Qaddaffi residence. It is known as Al-Azzizziya compound. Mad Dog pitches his tent inside the compound. The same compound Reagan bombed in 1986.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
By tomorrow, you will be done with all your hashish induced dreaming..
Big Brother to continue guiding Libya with his African brothers...
Also "this" was right, the Jets that flew to Malta did in fact defect. They were ordered to bomb Benghazi and instead flew to Malta.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
More British disinformation and destabilization:
"British Foreign Secretary William Hague said earlier that he had seen some information to Gadhafi had fled his own country and was on his way to Venezuela. ..."
All lies!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
BREAKING: 10 Egyptian nationals were killed in Libya: #alarabiya #Libya #feb17 #Feb17 #gaddafi half a minute ago via web
Monday, Green Square and its surrounding streets were empty. Schools, government offices and most stores were shut down across the city of 2 million, the witnesses said. State TV sought to give an air of normalcy, reporting that Muammar Gadhafi received telephone calls of support from the presidents of Nicaragua and Mali. It showed footage of a crowd of Libyans said to be from the town of Zeltein chanting their support for Gadhafi in a conference hall. Gadhafi, in flowing black and brown robes, waved to the crowd with both hands....
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: BREAKING: 10 Egyptian nationals were killed in Libya: #alarabiya #Libya #feb17 #Feb17 #gaddafi half a minute ago via web
Bringing in mercenaries only infuriated the public more. Also infuriated the tribes and even Libyan diplomats, some of whom are resigning in protest.
That disclaimer was a good thing, because one has to wonder if the author of that title is aware that Libya is an African country.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: On the prospects of civil war, debkafile reported Feb. 21. Around two million Cyrenaican protesters, half of Libya's population who control half of the country and part of its oil resources, embarked Sunday, Feb. 20, on a full-scale revolt against Muammar Qaddafi and his affluent ruling Tripolitanian-dominated regime. Unlike the rights protests sweeping the Middle East and North Africa, in Libya, one half of the country is rising up against the other half, as well as fighting to overthrow a dictatorial ruler of 42 years.
why dont all you cowards leave your laptops and join the protesters? Oh wait, I know the answer. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Oh god... Is this really going to degenerate into a is Gaddafi black or white debate?
Shades of grey, ladies. Shades of grey.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
^ Did you read Mad Dog's children bios in the BBC link?
Ayesha his daughter married her father's cousin.
His son “Hannibal” beat up his pregnant girlfriend in Paris, and also beat up two of his “servants” in Switzerland. Like father like son.
Saif, well last night's speech pretty much summed up his disposition.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I will purchase the tickets myself. Wadya say guys? Ready for the revolution?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well, I can't pass judgement on Ayesha. We're still allowed to marry our first cousins here
Hannibal... Speaks for itself.
That guy last night? I thought Denile ran through Egypt?
Yeah, I'm nicking Da Moon's jokes now, sorry.
You know, there's a joke shop up the road that has a great Gaddafi mask. TBH it looks way more lifelike than the real thing.
Whose to say he didn't die years ago? And folks wonder why he doesn't make his own speeches. My theory is it's a cyborg. And a poor one at that.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Lazy gossips ...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Says you from the comfort of the good old US of A. Before you start preaching to the rest of us, get your butt down to Tripoli. Wave your green flag in the air like you just don't care.
Or stick to arguing over black and white. Really, am I bovvered?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: ^ Did you read Mad Dog's children bios in the BBC link?
Ayesha his daughter married her father's cousin.
His son “Hannibal” beat up his pregnant girlfriend in Paris, and also beat up two of his “servants” in Switzerland. Like father like son.
Saif, well last night's speech pretty much summed up his disposition.
and then we have some of his family running away to Cairo now! Damn! Freaky looking coward! Is that his man servant in the background?
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Well, I can't pass judgement on Ayesha. We're still allowed to marry our first cousins here
Hannibal... Speaks for itself.
That guy last night? I thought Denile ran through Egypt?
Yeah, I'm nicking Da Moon's jokes now, sorry.
You know, there's a joke shop up the road that has a great Gaddafi mask. TBH it looks way more lifelike than the real thing.
Whose to say he didn't die years ago? And folks wonder why he doesn't make his own speeches. My theory is it's a cyborg. And a poor one at that.
Monkey! How dare you! How dare you insinuate the King of Kings of Africa is dead. You want to depress his worshipers.
King of Kings of Africa, soon to be King of Prison Cell in the Hague.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Says you from the comfort of the good old US of A. Before you start preaching to the rest of us, get your butt down to Tripoli. Wave your green flag in the air like you just don't care.
Or stick to arguing over black and white. Really, am I bovvered?
I'm not Libyan. I dont give a s**t. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I didn't mean you. I meant the other guy. The one who sounds a teensie eensie weensie bit racist.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
BREAKING: News of imminent speech by Libyan leader Aaddafi : Al Arabiya
They're talking about jets strafing again on our news - don't know if it's now or earlier.
They confirmed the defecting pilots in Malta.
Senior Correspondent reporting from the safety of Cairo. Times are a changing.
-----------------------------------------------
It sounds like they're using dum dum bullets by the way the doctors are describing the injuries.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
If he doesn't go soon, it sounds like the UN are thinking about thinking about going in.
-------------------------------------------------
Bizarrely, AJE have just shown what's playing on state TV. They have an orchestra playing a cheery tune. You can see it's all forced. They've been told to smile but you can see the fear in their eyes.
Warped. It's a bit surreal TBH.
-------------------------------------------------
They're talking about implementing a UN resolution TOMORROW and imposing a no fly zone over Libya
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: I will purchase the tickets myself. Wadya say guys? Ready for the revolution?
Yes.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
AJE: 2 Iranian navy vessels have entered the Suez heading towards the Mediterranean...
Is this bad? This seems bad.
MAILIA, Egypt -- Two Iranian ships entered the Suez Canal on Tuesday and were heading towards the Mediterranean, a canal official said.
"They entered the canal at 5:45 a.m.," the official told Reuters. No other details were immediately available.
Israel had said it takes a "grave view" of the passage of the ships -- the first Iranian naval vessels to go through the canal since Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution.
Egypt's ruling military council, facing its first diplomatic headache since taking power on Feb. 11, has approved the vessels' passage through the canal, a vital global trading route and major source of revenues for the Egyptian authorities.
The vessels include a frigate and a supply ship.
The decision was a difficult one for Egypt's interim government. Cairo is an ally of the United States, has a peace treaty with Israel, and its relations with Iran have been strained for more than three decades.
Last week, the prospect of the Suez crossing was described by Israel's far-right foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, as a provocation by Iran.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: .. Really, am I bovvered?
Now that explains all the vacuous comments..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
What's your take on it all then, IronLion?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
This reminds me too much of the massacre of the Palestinian ppl in and around Gaza 2 years ago. Sickening
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
What will be Mad Dog show us today? To date Libyans have been subjected to:
1.)Live ammunition fire from all caliber weapons ranging from 9mm to 50 caliber bullets to actual artillery shelling.
2.)Helicopters firing on protesters
3.)Jets bombing Tripoli and Azzawiya streets
4.)The hire of sub-Saharan mercenaries that have orders to shoot and kill Libyan citizens.
Mad Dog replied to his Chief Military Officer who is under house arrest for refusing orders to fire on civilians. “aahreiqha alla beit abeeha” literally translated as (I will burn her on the top of her father's house). It's a sick Arabic expression and her means “Libya.” The expression basically means “I was the one who created Libya and I will be the one to destroy Libya.” Truly a sick and twisted thug, right out of Stalin Era.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
*wonders what the price of oil needs to climb to, till we see a "Real" show of outrage/action from world leaders*
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Breaking News and Totally Off Topic ..sorry..
The King of Bahrain has announced today as an "Official Day of Mourning for Formula 1 Fans" as he announces the cancellation of Grand Prix.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
AlArabiya_Eng The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights say Libya's attacks on protestors may amount to crimes against humanity #alarabiya Twitter - seconds ago
may? MAY? MAY?????????
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: *wonders what the price of oil needs to climb to, till we see a "Real" show of outrage/action from world leaders*
Western governments are a sham and the same goes for Arab governments (except Qatar). Libyans will deal with the Mad Dog on their own. A No Fly Zone would be nice as it would facilitate mobilization of Pro-Democracy protesters and Army defectors from the East part of the country (.e.g. Benghazi) towards the Capital.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
# Egyptian doctors with medical supplies had been waiting hours to cross into #Libya. Egyptians very sympathetic to Libyan plight. #Egypt about 3 hours ago via web
# On Egyptian side of border, saw anti-Qaddafi Bedouin convince Egyptian army to allow Egyptian medical aid into #Libya.
(Ben Wederman is a CNN Reporter and the FIRST western reporter to enter Libya) There are reports more will follow.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
"I am here to show that I am in Tripoli and not in Venezuela," Gadhafi said in an interview broadcast by Libyan state television. In the interview, which lasted less than a minute and aired after 2 a.m. local time, Gadhafi said he was in the capital Tripoli. He could be seen in the front seat of a vehicle, carrying an umbrella.
"Don't believe those misleading dog stations," he said, referring to earlier reports that had suggested that he had fled to Venezuela.
British Foreign Secretary William Hague said he had seen some information that Gadhafi had left for South America. However, the Venezuelan government and Libya's deputy foreign minister have both denied those reports....
The city of Baida is in complete control of pro-democracy revolutionaries. Qaddafi elements including sub-Saharan mercenaries have been driven out, lynched and met their fate. This was stated on Al-Jazeera and also confirmed by fleeing Egyptians at the the Egyptian-Libya border. Qaddaffi banked on paid mercenaries, the biggest mistake of his life.
Fleeing Egyptians Tell of Libya Carnage
SIDI BURANA, Egypt—Anti-Gadhafi protesters are firmly in control of the eastern Libyan town of Baida and surrounding areas, according to Egyptian workers arriving in the Egyptian border town of Sidi Burana.
They showed flash-drive and cellphone videos with grisly pictures of what they said were captured pro-government mercenaries being viciously beaten in the city of Baida. One video showed a dark-skinned man, who the Egyptian workers said was a mercenary from Chad, being beaten to death. Another video showed what the workers said were mutilated mercenary corpses.
The fleeing workers had all come from Baida, about a five-hour drive from the border. They said the situation in the city had calmed and that the population was armed and firmly in control of the city and the surrounding areas.
Local police and army units had sided with the protesters and had distributed their weapons to newly deputized townspeople, who were conducting organized and regular patrols in and around the city, the workers said.
Isolated clashes were continuing around the airport, outside of the town, where a remaining contingent of pro-government forces were holed up and under siege by protesters, according to the fleeing Egyptians. They said they believed the pro-government forces at the airport were mostly from the same group as the captured mercenaries, and had come from Chad or Sudan.
Fourteen people were reportedly killed in clashes outside the airport on Monday, according to the fleeing Egyptians.
"All the people are armed in Baida," said Mohammed Abduh, an Egyptian laborer who returned Tuesday morning to Egypt from Baida. "The city is now calm and the citizens are patrolling." On the drive to the border along the inland desert highway, a distance of about 200 miles, there was no sign of government authorities anywhere, Mr. Abduh and his fellow travellers said. Instead, armed citizen patrols stood sentry all along the road.
Libyan authorities had also vanished from the border checkpoints. Instead, a local band of armed vigilantes briefly checked their papers before waving them through to Egypt.
Though eastern parts of Libya are widely reported to have fallen to antigovernment protesters, including the city of Benghazi, Libya's Col. Moammar Gadhafi has violently crushed protests in Tripoli, the Libyan capital, which lies in the west of the country.
Tripoli residents reported Monday that pro-Gadhafi troops, including what appeared to be battalions of foreign fighters, were being ferried to different parts of the city in helicopters. There were widespread reports that these and other government-friendly forces fired live rounds at protesters in the capital, as the Libyan response far exceeded the violence of other clashes across the region.
Many neighborhoods across the capital Tripoli are quiet Tuesday morning, with residents saying they are stocking up on basic food goods in case of a prolonged political crisis. Small shops and wholesale markets were open and residents said they had no trouble finding supplies, although prices have been rising over the last four days.
Hehehe... Yesterday your were crowing that Ghadafi had fled to Venezuela. This morning it turns out that Big Brother is at work as usual in Tripoli. Protesters are just a bunch of street urchins and bank robbers and will soon be rounded up and shot! You know our Big Brother don't you?
"Banks plundered by Violent protests in #Morocco http://bit.ly/fwEHs5 #fb #Egypt #Aljazeera #Iran #Yemen #Bahrain #Libya #Feb17 #Feb20 #Asia "
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Hehehe... Yesterday your were crowing that Ghadafi had fled to Venezuela. This morning it turns out that Big Brother is at work as usual in Tripoli. Protesters are just a bunch of street urchins and bank robbers and will soon be rounded up and shot! You know our Big Brother don't you?
"Banks plundered by Violent protests in #Morocco http://bit.ly/fwEHs5 #fb #Egypt #Aljazeera #Iran #Yemen #Bahrain #Libya #Feb17 #Feb20 #Asia "
PEACE IN TRIPOLI!
quote:Many neighborhoods across the capital Tripoli are quiet Tuesday morning, with residents saying they are stocking up on basic food goods in case of a prolonged political crisis. Small shops and wholesale markets were open and residents said they had no trouble finding supplies,...
Hooooooaaarrrrrry!!!!!!
Big Brother lives for another day!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Hehehe... Yesterday your were crowing that Ghadafi had fled to Venezuela. This morning it turns out that Big Brother is at work as usual in Tripoli. Protesters are just a bunch of street urchins and bank robbers and will soon be rounded up and shot! You know our Big Brother don't you?
"Banks plundered by Violent protests in #Morocco http://bit.ly/fwEHs5 #fb #Egypt #Aljazeera #Iran #Yemen #Bahrain #Libya #Feb17 #Feb20 #Asia "
I agree. That 15 second newsclip of him in a warehouse was really convincing Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
lol!
Warehouse or shop, he is still there and he ain't leaving nowhere!
Tripolitanians will never roll-over for Turks and Italians!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
PEACE IS BACK IN LIBIA: COUP PLOT FAILS
ITALIANS WILL BE CONFOUNDED!
Dicen en Libia que Gadafi está perdiendo el control del país. Comenzamos Hora 14 en 1´...http://bit.ly/FIia
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
What's the word on David Owen, he makes two UK politicians that I like, the other is George Galloway. I heard him last night.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
George Galloway... But no one likes George Galloway, surely?
David Owen... Haven't heard his name in a long time.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
David Owen is gay!
Galloway is a pig!
Why don't they deal with their life President Queen Elizabeth and her family of reptilian blood before interfering in African matters...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Egyptian Foreign Minister (Abo Gheit) "Repatriating 1.5 million Egyptians will be difficult." -AJ Live
Seems like an exaggerated figure. Probably covering his hide in event of media backlash over slow pace of repartition.
@Monkey, I hear Scots like GG.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Oopsie. I like some of the stuff he's done, but I can't like him, I just find him intensely dislikeable.
I liked David Owen, but he was a bit before my time.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
CNN’s Ben Wedeman is the first Western journalist to enter Libya:
“Your passports please,” said the young man in civilian clothing toting an AK-47 at the Libyan border. “For what?” responded our driver, Saleh, a burly, bearded man who had picked us up just moments before. “There is no government. What is the point?” He pulled away with a dismissive laugh.
On the Libyan side, there were no officials, no passport control, no customs. I’ve seen this before. In Afghanistan after the route of the Taliban, in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein. Government authority suddenly evaporates. It’s exhilarating on one level; its whiff of chaos disconcerting on another.
Saw footage of black Africans being detained in police stations and being questioned with many sub-Saharan passports on the officer's desk. I feared this was going to happen. There are more than 500,000 sub-Saharan Africans in Libya earning a living, families too. The people of Libya seem to have turned against them because of the sub-Saharan mercenaries that are killing Libyans on the streets.
Similar scenarios occurred in Kuwait after the first Gulf War. Arab nationals that were sympathetic with Saddam Hussein were beaten, imprisoned and eventually deported losing their livelihoods.
AJ Live
UN Security Council meeting will begin in a few minutes.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
and then of course you have that joke of a committee called the "Arab Leaque" holding a meeting today ...like most of them could really give a rat's ass what happens and have no intentions of doing a single thing...par for the course.
@exiiled - The million and half figure is not that far off, from all I have heard. Huge population of Egyptians there.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
supposedly another speech coming up soon by Gadaffi
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: supposedly another speech coming up soon by Gadaffi
Can't wait.
Also waiting to hear the result of the closed door UN Security Council meeting. Hoping for a No-Fly-Zone resolution.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
This all escalated and became so horrific so fast, it seems like all the other countries that were protesting peacefully and civilians being killed now get zero media attention.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
WE ARE HERE TO EDUCATE THE RACISTS AND THE STOOOPIDS:
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
مصدر: القاهرة أبلغت طرابلس رسميا بأنها قد تتدخل عسكريا بليبيا لحماية مواطنيها
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Saw footage of black Africans being detained in police stations and being questioned with many sub-Saharan passports on the officer's desk. I feared this was going to happen. There are more than 500,000 sub-Saharan Africans in Libya earning a living, families too. The people of Libya seem to have turned against them because of the sub-Saharan mercenaries that are killing Libyans on the streets.
BLAH BLAH BLAH...
Barbarians and racist Vandals you do act like the true blood of your Italian and Turkic fathers
You fighting for "liberation" by shedding the blood of innocent people because of the brown colour of their skin
No way you goin win.
You will die in double tyranny and triple oppression!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Saw footage of black Africans being detained in police stations and being questioned with many sub-Saharan passports on the officer's desk. I feared this was going to happen. There are more than 500,000 sub-Saharan Africans in Libya earning a living, families too. The people of Libya seem to have turned against them because of the sub-Saharan mercenaries that are killing Libyans on the streets.
BLAH BLAH BLAH...
Barbarians and racist Vandals you do act like the true blood of your Italian and Turkic fathers
You fighting for "liberation" by shedding the blood of innocent people because of the brown colour of their skin
No way you goin win.
You will die in double tyranny and triple oppression!
Excellent news. There is also growing tensions between Tripoli and Tunisia.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
THE TURKICS AND THE ITALIACS MUST GO OR GHADAFI AND HIS AFRICAN ARMY ARE GONNA KILL THEM ALL, TO THE LAST BULLET!
Governments scrambled by air and sea to pick up their citizens stranded by Libya's bloody unrest on Tuesday, with thousands of Turks crowding into a stadium to await evacuation and Egyptians gathering at the border to escape the chaos.
At least two airlines, British Airways and Emirates, the Middle East's largest, said they were canceling flights to Tripoli, as reports spread that bodies of protesters littered the streets of a district in the capital.
Two civilian ferries from Turkey and one military ship were expected to arrive in the hard-hit eastern city of Benghazi on Tuesday to evacuate about 3,000 Turkish citizens after the country was unable to get permission to land at the city's airport.
Meanwhile, about 5,000 Egyptians have returned home from Libya by land and about 10,000 more are waiting to cross the Libya-Egypt border, an Egyptian security official said. Egypt says it will also send six commercial and two military planes to repatriate thousands more caught in the revolt against Moammar Gadhafi's regime.
Other countries said they were preparing planes to fetch their citizens, with Serbia, Russia, the Netherlands and France reporting they had permission to land in Tripoli. Libya is one of the world's biggest oil producers, and many oil companies were evacuating their expat workers and their families.
Turkey has a huge presence in Libya, with about 25,000 citizens in the country and more than 200 Turkish companies involved in construction projects worth more than $15 billion. Some of the construction sites reportedly came under attack by protesters but no Turkish citizen has been harmed so far, authorities said.
Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said 10 other countries have also asked for help from Turkey to evacuate their citizens, though he did not identify them. He said Turkey was also evaluating options to get its citizens out through Tunisia or Egypt. More than 1,000 Turkish citizens had been airlifted so far, he said.
"Our priority is to evacuate our citizens. We call on Libyan authorities to be sensitive toward the safety of foreigners," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said, urging the authorities not to use violence.
In Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit accused Gadhafi's son Seif al-Islam of inciting against Egyptians by suggesting they joined the protests against his father.
The Egyptian security official said troops have beefed up their presence on the border with Libya and set up a field hospital there. He did not give details and spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not allowed to share such information.
Italy was sending an air force transport aircraft to Benghazi to evacuate roughly 100 Italian citizens. Italy's state radio said Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa made the announcement to reporters in Abu Dhabi, where he is on an official visit.
Italy, with large energy interests in Libya, has some 1,500 citizens living or working in the country. Some citizens have been leaving in recent days aboard regularly scheduled commercial flights from Tripoli. In addition, a special Alitalia flight from Tripoli was expected to arrive at Milan's Malpensa airport later Tuesday.
A Dutch air force transport plane had been given clearance to fly to Tripoli and was expected to leave early afternoon to pick up about 100 Dutch citizens and arrive back in the country Tuesday night, the Defense Ministry said.
Russian Emergencies Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova said in televised comments that an Il-76 plane is to take off for Tripoli on Tuesday to collect 134 Russians. A total of 563 people are to be evacuated eventually on four planes, she said. Most are employees of state companies Russian Railways and Gazprom, plus their families.
Ukraine is planning to send a defense ministry plane and the Bulgarian foreign ministry said a government plane was ready to take off from Sofia airport as soon as it had permission to land in Tripoli to pick up 180 people.
The French Foreign Ministry said three French Airbus planes were heading to Tripoli's airport - where the French Embassy has set up a temporary office - to fly out 530 to 550 people.
Spanish oil company Repsol-YPF had about 200 workers and relatives of workers in Libya before the crisis began, and a company source said Tuesday that some had been evacuated from the country and that Repsol was trying to get the rest out. The source spoke on condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to discuss the matter.
Other oil companies, including Italy's Eni, Royal Dutch Shell PLC, U.K.-based BP and Germany's Wintershall, a subsidiary of BASF, have been pulling out employees.
Emirates said it was halting its daily flights to Tripoli until further notice. British Airways canceled Tuesday's flight to Tripoli and its return leg to London's Heathrow Airport as a precaution, spokesman Euan Fordyce said. The airline, which flies daily to and from Tripoli, is reviewing flights for the rest of the week, Fordyce added.
Germany's Lufthansa said it was going ahead with its scheduled flight from Tripoli to Frankfurt on Tuesday, and was using a larger plane than usual to get as many people out as possible.
In addition, Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said that two German military planes were in the air to help the evacuation effort. He added that "all other possibilities are being examined, including the sea route."
Many Germans already left on a scheduled flight Monday, Westerwelle said. But, German diplomats were working on getting people out. Some 500 Germans are registered as living in Libya, and the foreign ministry estimates that some 400 were still there Tuesday morning, a foreign ministry spokeswoman said on condition of anonymity in line with German government policy.
!!!!!! !!!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: !!!!!! !!!!!
LOL.
He's given the speech from a building that was bombed in 1986. Broken glass, bullet holes, LOL Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
"Takeover by the army looks unlikely. Gaddafi, a military man himself when he overthrew the monarchy in 1969, deliberately kept the army weak and refused for long periods to issue it with ammunition. The regime is protected by special battalions such as the one commanded by his son Khamis, said to have been crushing protests in Benghazi..."
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: !!!!!! !!!!!
LOL.
He's given the speech from a building that was bombed in 1986. Broken glass, bullet holes, LOL
He recorded it in 1987...
He's a cyborg. Why will no one listen?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
The translator sucks! RATS!!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
May as well just poison the entire water system, the whole country is guilty!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
LONG LIVE INDEPENDENT LIBYA!
"Any Libyan who lifts an arm AGAINST THE STATE OR HIS FELLOW CITIZEN shall be punished with the death sentence. Those who spy for other countries shall be punished with the death sentence. Anybody who undermines the sovereignty of the state" – same punishment. Those who commit crimes against the army, anyone working for a foreign country undermining the defence of the country – same punishment. "We will not blame the youth," he says, but adds: when they are caught and prosecuted they will be begging for mercy but this time we will not be so merciful."
by Dearest Leader and Big Brother Moamar Ghadafi!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
ALL RATS WILL BE SHOT OR POISONED
DECONTAMINATION TIME! PEST CONTROL TIME!
LONG LIVE BROTHER GHADAFI!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
"Do you want us to be like Somalia...
Do you want America to come and rule you, like Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan..
Go out to the streets, chase them, take away their arms, arrest them, prosecute them, hand them to security. The rebels are "a bunch of terrorists."
Brother Moamar Ghadafi February 22, 2011
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
LIARS INCORPORATED AND BRIT-AMERICAN SPONSORED COUP ATTEMPT:
William Hague, the British foreign secretary, has also been speaking. He announced that a British warship, HMS Cumberland, is heading to international waters near Libyan waters, in case it is needed to evacuate any of the 3,000 British nationals in Libya. A charter flight has been booked to head to Tripoli. Hague also called for the UN to issue a "very strong statement".
He acknowledged that, despite his statement yesterday that he believed Gaddafi to have left Tripoli, he is "clearly" still there. But he added: "There are many indications that the structure of the state is collapsing."
SENATOR KERRY - ILLUMINATI PRINCE:
US senator John Kerry is reportedly calling for oil companies to withdraw from Libya.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
"The unity of China was more important than the people of Tiananmen Square."
Brother Moamar Ghadafi
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
EXTERMINATE ... THE VERMINS...
"African mercenaries are gunning down civilians in Libya, say Egyptians crossing the border. Their claims are supported by Libya's ambassador to India, who has now resigned..."
Posted by adelly (Member # 14574) on :
What a crazy, delusional murder. Just heard his speech.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
No rational person can accept anything that this vile person states. He mentioned the word drugs 12x. He looked visibly disturbed.
His days are clearly numbered.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
The war is over!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Summary: /Begin Rant
I'm awesome!
Drugs are bad, mmkay?!
Therefore if you don't like my awesomeness, then you must be on drugs.
Logical conclusion: War on Drugs!!!!!!!
/End Rant
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
YasserImam Yasser Imam by mohap_20 ياباني و ليبي تحدو بعض, الياباني لـلليبى احنا اغبى واحد فينا بيصنع لاب توب , الليبي رد عليه و قاله احنا اغبى واحد فينا رئيس جمهورية #libya 41 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
YasserImam Yasser Imam بعد ظهور القذافى فى التلفزيون أعلنت وكالة ناسا عن استقبال سكان الارض رسالة من مخلوق فضائى غير واضحة المعالم وجارى تحليلها #libya #feb17 9 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
YasserImam Yasser Imam عاجل: التليفزيون الليبى يهدد باعادة عرض خطاب القذافى مرة اخرى اذا لم يستسلم الثوار #LIBYA #FEB17 5 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
And of course the poster is Egyptian Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Aid From The Egyptian City Of Matruh Arrives In Libya
Qadaffi in his speech last night, praised Interior Minister/General Abdel Fatah Younis. He spoke about how they were part of the original revolution, and how brave Younis is.
The same evening, Abdel Fatah Younis defected to the Feb-17 pro-Democracy revolutionaries. This man was Qadaffi's right hand man.
The list of defections are increasing by the hour. Add to that list the Libyan Ambassador in Austria.
List of Libyans joining the Feb17 Revolutionaires:
The Demise of Qadaffi is near, I only hope they don't lynch him. He needs to be locked up in a 6x12 cell for the rest of his life.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
When the UN issued a ticking off yesterday, I thought what's the use in that? But I guess by saying that there will be accountability right the way down the line, it's shaking those under Gaddafi who thought the "I was only obeying orders" line might wash...
I did see a video yesterday which was completely grotesque. They'd rounded up some soldiers who had refused to obey, and burnt them all alive, leaving their bodies out on the street as a message for everyone else.
Talk about a rock and a hard place.
I wish they would lynch him and I wish they'd do it now - could save an awful lot of lives.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
A recap of what ignited the revolution.
On January 15, 2011 a Libyan human rights activist (Fathi Trabel) was arrested because he was representing the families of 1200 inmates who were killed in Abu Slim prison in 1996. These families wanted compensation for the unjust killings. Benghazi youth protested and the Libyan authorities replied by killing more than 20 of them on the first day.
Benghazi is now free. The civilians of Benghazi have began to clean up the streets, there is calm there, and there was also a massive celebration there last past couple of days with fireworks. It is on Al-Jazeera I will try to find a video to upload.
What is obvious is ALL Arab leaders are walking a tight rope. And what triggered revolution in Benghazi was triggered by events in Egypt and what ignited that revolution was the Tunisian revolution. And what set that off occured in a small city of Sidi Bouzid.
And one by one they will ALL fall down!
because of what happened in Tahrir and what happened in Tahrir, happened because of what happened in Sidi Bouzid.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Correction: Febuary 15
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Live footage of Benghazi on AJ.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
THE WAR IS OVER!
BIG BROTHA KHADAFI REIGNS!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
A Real Revolution Posted by Charles Featherstone on February 20, 2011 05:00 PM If what I am reading at Al Jazeera and the February 17th weblog of Libyan rebels is true, it appears the people of Libya have done something amazing and truly heroic — they have broken the back of the regime of Colonel Muammar Qaddafī and forced him to flee (though no one is for certain whether the Brother Leader has fled or not). It is true that protests and fighting have spread to the capital Tripoli, Libyans are chanting “There is no God but God and Qaddafī is the enemy of God,” and soldiers and army units are mutinying.
Libyan diplomats are resigning (one publicly during an interview) and the country’s top Islamic scholar has proclaimed publicly it is a religious duty to resist the regime.
It is one thing for Tunisians to topple a government with not much of an army, and another for Egyptians to take on a state where the loyalty of the army was uncertain (and largely pro-people). But the Libyans have taken on a state that was willing and able to shoot back (much like the shia of Bahrain), even to the point of using anti-aircraft guns and artillery against demonstrators, and it appears the people are succeeding. If they haven’t rid themselves of the odious Qaddafī tonight (this morning in Libya), it is very likely they will soon.
The implications of this are staggering. No regime in the region is now safe. No regime in the world is now safe. We live in a moment when “the people, united, cannot be defeated.” At least not when fighting for their dignity and their right to rule themselves. (It’s just pathetic when people chant that when fighting for “health care” or higher wages.) No state in the world is safe. People have shown that it is possible to face down the guns and prove the pointlessness of state power — of the kind of violence the state can bring to bear — when they are unafraid of that violence.
This is not the ushering in of libertarian paradise by any means. But it is the end of the kind of state that thought it could forever bully human beings into submission. Such states are brittle, and appear to break quickly. Not easily, but relatively quickly.
Finally, I am reminded of a quote from the TV series Firefly: “We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.”
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Running On Crazy - Mona Eltahawy
NEW YORK - If Tunisia kicked down the door of the Arab imagination by showing it was possible to topple a dictator, Egypt drew a blueprint of non-violence for the house of revolution that detailed how to demolish a stubbornly entrenched dictator and now in Libya a mad man is trying to burn down the entire house rather than face eviction.
For 42 years, Col. Moammar Gadhafi's antics have blinded too many to a brutality they finally see on full display as he desperately tries to quash the most serious uprising against his rule. If too many chose to not see, Libyans have known all too well.
Half the struggle for Libyans has surely been getting the world to move beyond Gadhafi the Clown, a role he seems to have uninhibitedly embraced. Who hasn't been distracted by the eclectic wardrobe, the Kalashnikov-armed female bodyguards, and the tents he would pitch at home and abroad for talks with officials.
A source of embarrassment for Libyans, Gadhafi has never been a joke: disappearances, a police state, zero freedom of expression and poverty for at least a third of the population of country tremendously wealthy thanks to oil.
For years, Gadhafi squandered that wealth on causes and radical violence abroad that he chose because they epitomized the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" school of diplomacy. In 2003, just as the U.S. became mired in Iraq and its non-existent weapons of destruction, Gadhafi realized no one was scared of him anymore and voluntarily gave up his weapons of mass destruction programs.
When the world has paid attention to his crimes it has invariably been to those against non-Libyans such as the mid-air bombings of a French airliner over Niger and of a Pan Am airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland. Once he compensated families who lost relatives in those attacks, Gadhafi became persona grata and money and business deals came and went along with high-level dignitaries.
Gadhafi was a guest of the leaders of Italy and France and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- with businessmen in tow of course -- visited Libya soon after Gadhafi's rehabilitation.
Oil, business and arms deals have always trumped the rights of the Libyan people who long suffered his crimes yet rarely if ever saw compensation let alone the same attention and condemnation as that of the crimes that kept Libya a "pariah" state for so long -- until Gadhafi learned to bribe the world's conscience into forgetting.
I visited Libya in September 1996 for the 27th anniversary of the "revolution" -- a military coup that a 27-year old Gadhafi led to topple the monarchy and since which he has ruled. Some were optimistic that Gadhafi's "revolution" could herald a new Libya but it didn't take long for his brutality to stamp out any such hopes.
During the 1970s, police and security forces arrested hundreds of Libyans who opposed Gadhafi or those the authorities feared could oppose his rule: violent suppression of student demonstrations, imprisonment and disappearances of every political and social group you can imagine from academics to journalists, Trotskyists to members of the Muslim Brotherhood, all labeled "enemies of the revolution." In case anyone questioned Gadhafi's bloodlust, there were even a number of televised public hangings and mutilations of political opponents, rights groups say.
In the 1980s authorities introduced a policy of extrajudicial executions of political opponents abroad, termed "stray dogs."
What is believed to be the bloodiest act of internal repression under Gadhafi's rule occurred just a few months before I arrived in Tripoli with a group of journalist from Cairo. Very few, if any of us, knew though. More than 1,000 prisoners were shot dead by security forces on June 28 and 29, 1996 in Abu Salim prison, Tripoli. It wasn't until 2004 that Gadhafi publicly admitted to the Abu Salim killings. Relatives of the murdered men have refused compensation in place of judicial process.
One of Gadhafi's crimes that I was aware of during my visit was the disappearance of former Libyan foreign minister turned dissident Mansour Kikhia. Egyptian agents abducted Kikhia during a visit to Cairo in Dec. 1993 while attending a meeting of an Arab human rights organization he had helped found. Kikhia had asked for Egyptian security protection while in Cairo but agents of now toppled Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak's regime handed Kikhia over to agents of Gadhafi's regime, who spirited the dissident to Libya, where he is believed to have executed and buried in the Libyan desert.
I interviewed his wife Baha Omary Kikhia in 1994 as she visited the region trying to find out what had happened to her husband. I think of her now as I hear many Libyans I know whose relatives have been disappeared in Libya wonder if they're still alive, hoping for the best as they hear of Gadhafi's all-out attempt to quash the uprising.
And so I watch in awe at the breathtaking courage of Libyans, rising up again -- it is an insult to think this is the first time for they long have resisted Gadhafi's tyranny and bloody crackdowns on dissent.
The Tunisian revolution left every Arab dictator in fear, Egypt's toppling of Mubarak left them terrified -- even one of the U.S.' best allies in the region could fall. And here they watch a psychopathic dictator unleash his full horror on pro-freedom demonstrators and still fail to terrify them into submission. The Italian foreign minister has said reports that 1,000* people have been killed in 7 days of uprising are credible.
The price of toppling Gadhafi will be steep. But Libyans will topple him and in doing so they will bring down with him the castles of fear our dictators thought they had fortified.
*Reports now are upwards of 2000 deaths Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
High tension near Malta's airspace. An unauthorized, unscheduled Libyan passenger airliner is attempting to land in Malta. It has been denied access to land. The pilot is claiming it is an emergency and running low on fuel. There are negotiations underway.
AJ LIVE
Speculation is that it has members of Qadaffi, as you may have heard, yesterday Qadaffi family members on board an airliner were denied access to land in Beirut Lebanon, this despite the fact that one of the passengers (Hannibal's wife) being Lebanese.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Libya's Gaddafi DID personally order Lockerbie bombing and I have PROOF, claims former Justice minister
Swedish tabloid Expressen says Mustafa Abdel-Jalilm, who has just resigned from his cabinet post in protest at the violent crackdown against anti-government demonstrations, told their correspondent in Libya: 'I have proof that Gaddafi gave the order about Lockerbie.'
Libyan aircraft turns back after being denied landing permission
A Libyan Arab Airlines ATR 42 turbo-prop aircraft is heading back to Libya after having been denied permission to land at Malta International Airport.
The aircraft flew unexpectedly to Malta and when queried about landing permission, the pilot gave details about a flight which was supposed to have come to Malta yesterday.
Landing permission was immediately denied and the aircraft then circled for some 20 minutes south of Malta while attempts were made for the decision to be reversed.
The pilot eventually decided to return home. Soldiers of the AFM's 'A' Company were seen entering the airport when the aircraft approached Malta.
It is understood that the plane had been carrying 14 passengers.
Meanwhile soldiers are continuing to guard two Libyan Air Force Mirage F1 fighters whose pilots defected on Monday. The pilots are in custody.
**It sure seems like it was Qadaffi's relatives, only 14 passengers, almost identical to the number that was denied landing yesterday in Beirut.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I was going to say - if they'd been defectors you may as well just shoot them down as send them back to him. It would probably be kinder.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Just out of curiosity, what could they do if you just landed anyway? In a place like Malta, I mean? Once they touched down in Europe they could plead asylum, surely - I think there's significant threat to their lives if they were sent back.
Just wondered...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Libya unrest: Foreign Office sending planes for Britons
Foreign Secretary William Hague says the government will send "as many planes as necessary" to bring Britons home from Libya.
So when they're not allowed to land all hell will break loose. It's going to be a tutting frenzy.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just out of curiosity, what could they do if you just landed anyway? In a place like Malta, I mean? Once they touched down in Europe they could plead asylum, surely - I think there's significant threat to their lives if they were sent back.
Just wondered...
Ro7 Ommuh wants his family safe. They are not defectors, they simply want to flee the inevitable. They are relatives of Qadaffi who are fleeing for better pastures with the blessing of Qadaffi. They were negotiating with the Maltese authorities for 20 minutes. If they were genuinely defectors they would have been allowed to land. That was clearly not the case, and the same scenario happened yesterday in Lebanon as well. The authorities in Beirut asked for the names of all of passengers that were on board and upon learning of those names, they were denied landing access.
As for what they can do if they disobey and try to land. How about blowing them out the sky. The Italian air force was monitoring the plane from the moment it left Libyan air space.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
They can't blow up a commercial plane. Refusing the plane to land means they will be arrested and prosecuted upon landing.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nah, I don't see an EU country shooting them down.
Depends who was on the plane, I guess, but if it's wives and children, they wouldn't be guilty by association. And I'm sure they would have an even stronger argument that their lives were in danger if they were sent back - an even stronger argument for being granted assylum. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It is what it is.
Reckon I'd have been calling mayday mayday and taking my chances - better that than turning around and go home again.
Unless there was a key player on board.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia announced nearly 11 Billion Dollars worth of pay raises and loan leniency.
AJ
Loan leniency in Saudi Arabia was the norm in Saudi Arabia during King Khalid's reign. A Saudi Citizen would take out a loan for say 100,000 Rials (about $26K) and eventually be forgiven as the government would write it off.
BTW Al-Khalifa of Bahrain, also attempted to bribe his citizens by offering every family $2,650
Jordan offered a $28 montly raise to goveremnt employees.
Egypt, well we know about the 15% raise.
Makes one wonder where all this money suddenly came from. As if it is their own money. It's the People's money!
Too Little Too Late Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Just think about it. How sweet is it that each and every Arab ruler is losing sleep. How sweet is it that their entire elite existence is in doubt. This didn't exist on or before January 1, 2011.
King Abdullah's offer of pay raises and loan leniencies (which will amount to mortgage write offs, car write offs, etc) is an admission of the Peninsula shaking. This is just incredible, truly, truly incredible.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
I quoted 11 Billion Dollars that King Abdullah offered, the actual inital figure is $37bn (£23bn)
"King Abdullah, the Saudi ruler, has returned home after a three-month medical absence and unveiled benefits for Saudis worth $37bn (£23bn) in an apparent attempt to insulate the world's leading oil exporter from a wave of Arab uprisings.
State media announced an action plan to help lower- and middle-income people among the 18m Saudi nationals. It includes pay rises to offset inflation, unemployment benefits and affordable family housing.
Hundreds of people have backed a Facebook call for a Saudi "day of rage" on 11 March to demand an elected ruler, greater freedom for women and the release of political prisoners."
I almost forgot Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen, his bribe was free tuition for the remainder of the year for all college students ( all relentless pro-democracy demonstrators he meant)
Who are they kidding. Whose money is it! Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Do the ppl of Libya have some sort of "organized" plan like Egyptians did? I have not been able to follow many of these revolutions going on presently from beginning, not enough time in my day to try and sort it all out.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Was out today and noticed that many of the areas where microbuses gather for taking ppl back and forth daily to Libya were so quiet. Tons of the buses just parked, empty. And men sitting on curb looking rather forlorn. No business.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Hillary Clinton is displaying America's weakness. Shame. There are insinuations that once American citizens leave Libya (fear of Qadaffi using them as hostages) America will take a more aggressive stance. That is BS, and has never been part of American policy, not in Iraq and not in Iran in 79. A mouse occupies the White House is my understanding.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Berlusconi tells Gaddafi Italy did not arm demonstrators
Rome - Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on Tuesday telephoned Moamer Gaddafi to reportedly deny a claim made earlier by the Libyan leader that anti-government demonstrators had been armed with rockets supplied by Italy.
Berlusconi's office did not specify the contents of the telephone conversation, but the ANSA news agency, citing Italian government sources, said the premier had 'flatly denied' any Italian involvement in supplying weapons to the demonstrators.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Hillary Clinton is displaying America's weakness. Shame. There are insinuations that once American citizens leave Libya (fear of Qadaffi using them as hostages) America will take a more aggressive stance. That is BS, and has never been part of American policy, not in Iraq and not in Iran in 79. A mouse occupies the White House is my understanding.
Agree totally. I can't express enough my disgust for my countries foreign policies!!!!
But you know what Exiled, I hope Libyans attain their freedom ON THEIR OWN. Without any help from any of the foreign RATS! Egypt did it, so can Libya. Let them be beholding to NO ONE!
Sidenote: I see Rahm, son of a Zionist is now Chicago's mayor. How long before he is in White House?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Do the ppl of Libya have some sort of "organized" plan like Egyptians did? I have not been able to follow many of these revolutions going on presently from beginning, not enough time in my day to try and sort it all out.
Yes. Get rid of the cancer known as Qadaffi and sons. After seeing the carnage of the past few days, I have to say I agree 100%! Ridding the psychopath is all that matters at this point. There are more than enough intelligent and intellectual Libyans to lead the nation. It's a tribal nations and they will do things differently than Egypt.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Hillary Clinton is displaying America's weakness. Shame. There are insinuations that once American citizens leave Libya (fear of Qadaffi using them as hostages) America will take a more aggressive stance. That is BS, and has never been part of American policy, not in Iraq and not in Iran in 79. A mouse occupies the White House is my understanding.
Agree totally. I can't express enough my disgust for my countries foreign policies!!!!
But you know what Exiled, I hope Libyans attain their freedom ON THEIR OWN. Without any help from any of the foreign RATS! Egypt did it, so can Libya. Let them be beholding to NO ONE!
Sidenote: I see Rahm, son of a Zionist is now Chicago's mayor. How long before he is in White House?
They are doing it on their own. And they will continue to do it on their own, like other Arab countries before Libya and those after Libya.
The US will hesitate until freedom is a minute or 2 within the grasp of the Libyan people. Let me quote a retired NYC police defective who almost lost his life bringing down police corruption in NYC in the 70s.
THE "BLACKBUSH" (Obama)
The black bush, as he is referred to in Egypt (by those in the know) is now trying to wax poetic as if he had a hand in bringing about what is happening in Egypt.
In a way he has, by being in league with Netanyahu, Mubarak and Suleiman in their repressive regime, suppressing the rights of freedom loving people the world over.
The pot has boiled over. Bravo Wiki Leaks.
Maybe the people of America and the world learn about true Democracy and Freedom.
There is no Khair from America when it comes to true Arab freedom.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Sorry forgot to place link. The quote belongs to detective Frank Serpico. Maybe some of you saw his movie by Al-Pacino "Serpico"
WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT: The horrific price Libyan people are paying for freedom as Gaddafi's bloody grip on power gradually slips away
The coastal cities of Benghazi, Tobruk and Misrata have all fallen before the unstoppable wrath of the rebels with Gaddafi only retaining a real power base around the capital Tripoli.
Where is Tony Blair, the Middle East Peace Envoy? - David, Derby, 23/2/2011 19:21
Just seen this - QUOTE OF THE DAY "If Tony Blair brings much more peace to the Middle East, there'll be nobody left alive" Tony Parsons - Jerry, Southampton, 23/2/2011 19:04
Doesn't Tony Blair have good judgement... 'a close personal friend of the Gaddafi family'.... we had Bliar's socialist scumbags in power with lies and deceits for thirteen years, the poor people of Libya have suffered this murderous meglomaniac for decades... God help them
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I wish Gadaffi would just bomb those oil wells tonight and get it over with. Then let's see who really cares.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Do the ppl of Libya have some sort of "organized" plan like Egyptians did?
What plan? Who planned it and what was is it exactly?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: THE WAR IS OVER!
BIG BROTHA KHADAFI REIGNS!
Exiile, I told your Turkic arse so, didnjai?
Run run run, Khadafi coming for your arse with his "black African" soldiers.
Africa for Africans
Italy for Italians
Turkmenistan for Turkics... Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
lisang RT @ashrafkhalil: #Libya TV announcing #Gaddafi to address nation soon. Al Jazeera translators starting to drink heavily in preparation
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: lisang RT @ashrafkhalil: #Libya TV announcing #Gaddafi to address nation soon. Al Jazeera translators starting to drink heavily in preparation
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
Watching his last speech I was waiting for his head to start spinning round in circles until he internally combusted Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
he has brought a whole new meaning to the phrase "pumping blood into the community"
I retract my previous statement about Saif's speech, Daddy has it over him a hundred fold.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
“it's all because of Bin Ladin and Al-Qaeda, they give your children hallucination pills that make them not listen to their parents”
"where are the elders, were are the wise people of the community, control your kids"
"take the guns away from the kids"
He's infuriated because he lost Azzawya and Misurata.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Sheesh... He is one poorly man... I think the ones who actually take him seriously must be poorlier still...
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
criminally insane comes to mind
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
“We are liberated from Qadaffi's control, we are free. We don't care what he says. His troops attacked at our city early in the morning with heavy machine gun fire and rpg rockets. He is a liar, our women, our elderly, our children took to the streets, there is no Al-Aqaeda here or drugs he speaks of. We are the people of Azzawaya. They killed some of our people, but we drove them back, we drove them out of Azzawya, we are liberated. He's done, he is over, he is in the final moments” - Azzawya Resident Speaker
AJ also asked another Azzawya Resident “Why did Qaddafi focus on Azzawaya, is there any truth that elder men in the Mosques are giving the youth hallucination pills?”
Reply “Whowa Magnooon” (He is a nut) Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Druggies, rats and roaches!
Bank robbers too!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I think the ones who actually take him seriously must be poorlier still...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
I posted this in another thread. But this video is also very appropriate here.
There was another I was going to post of another celebration from a couple of days ago, but this is just too awesome.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: “We are liberated from Qadaffi's control, we are free.
The masses are really a stupid bunch of people and will forever be ruled and outfoxed by elites. This same type of premature joy was expressed in Iraq after Saddam, and they are so very free today. Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
aka Blabberflower...just have to comment on that crowd in Benghazi....never seen anything like it! Loved the crowd singing! Just Wow...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glassflower: aka Blabberflower...just have to comment on that crowd in Benghazi....never seen anything like it! Loved the crowd singing! Just Wow...
The crowd singing was my favorite part too. Played that part over and over. Very very happy for the people of Benghazi. The ocean background was lovely as well.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
First the singing, then the complaining, then the weeping, then the existential reflection on their being and the meaning of "change". They will go through the same evolution of emotions as the people of Iraq. The free people of Iraq. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think a few hundred thousand Kurds might beg to differ Anguish, but I'm sure you have a point...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: First the singing, then the complaining, then the weeping, then the existential reflection on their being and the meaning of "change". They will go through the same evolution of emotions as the people of Iraq. The free people of Iraq.
Iraq was invaded, it is currently under foreign occupation. This is an unprecedented revolution that is only 8 days old and gaining momentum by the hour. If you have anything intelligent to say, do entertain me, other wise sit back and enjoy history in the making.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
If you think the west is going to allow a "peoples government" to take hold in Libya then you are as stupid as the miserable ignorant masses you left behind. The west is working as we speak on a post-Qaddafi scenario were members of his government and maybe inner circle will continue the flow of oil and money: out of Libya.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
What's our leverage, Anguish? We need the oil. They have the oil. I don't see what we have to hold over their heads???
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: If you think the west is going to allow a "peoples government" to take hold in Libya then you are as stupid as the miserable ignorant masses you left behind. The west is working as we speak on a post-Qaddafi scenario were members of his government and maybe inner circle will continue the flow of oil and money: out of Libya.
Prove it. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Oh the United States will, don't worry.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
And if Libya's anything to go by, the thought of Iran and Saudi kicking off makes me shudder. A couple of twists and turns and this could wind up in WWIII. Go to the heart of it, and there's an intense distrust of the West in the ME. And it's not unfounded either. If we went in with all guns blazing... doesn't bear thinking about. Thank God Obama has been treading softly softly. I mean, I don't think it's right we're sitting by and watching the Libyans getting slaughtered, but if you really think about it, if we went in there stomping our size 9s it wouldn't be long before we'd be accused of having ulterior motives like in Iraq and Afghanistan (again, not unfounded either). The Western nations are treading a tightrope right now. All it takes is the massacre of Westerners in one of those countries (and it's not unforeseeable that this could happen)... and poof - it's a whole different ball game.
I foresee a new new world order. The reality is the ME has oil and we need it. They're holding the Royal Flush. I just hope it unfolds relatively calmly.
Anguish, I would remind you it was not so long ago half the globe was painted pink with the British empire. Look what happened there. Lol.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Do you think it was right for America to sit by and watch Israel slaughter Palestinians and Lebanese?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't think it's right that the West (and Britain is one of the biggest culprits) is pushing for Arab states to uphold a peace treaty Israel have taken and repeatedly wiped their backsides with.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Here is an account by Tarek Shalaby who joined a convoy of several dozen cars with Egyptians inside traveling to Libya to help Libyans. The convoy is mostly young Egyptian doctors carrying with them medicine but also includes Egyptians from all walks of life - a.k.a Young Revolutionaries. He is chronicling this act of Arab solidarity on his twitter account:
* This is Arab solidarity at it's best: dozens of cars with medical supplies and doctors heading to #Libya & young revolutionaries in own cars 5 minutes ago via Seesmic for Android
* This is the other car going with us Mahmoud el Baroudi and Hassan el Toukhy. We'll decide what we do along the way http://twitpic.com/43bmc7 8 minutes ago via Seesmic for Android
* Caught up with the Arab Doctors' convoy heading the same direction. Loads of cars! Sweet #libya #feb17 http://twitpic.com/43bl9w 12 minutes ago via Seesmic for Android
* Ya alf hamdella 3assalama! Masr nawwaret lel 7odood! RT @soheirabaza: Its GOOD to be back! 21 minutes ago via Seesmic for Android
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Reckon the SAS will be going into that oil field soon to get our peeps out.
If they don't, someone wants their backsides kicking.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Any who thinks that Arab region, after freeing itself w/out any help, will let intl comm "shape" it is on same hallucinogenic #Gaddafi takes
This is a chick whose articles used to annoy me from time to time. Have nothing but love and praise for her now.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Saudijote I bet #Gaddafi is smoking weed right now, watching Omar Al Mukhtar, hitting on the table and yelling : REVOLUTION .. REVOLUTION. Twitter - seconds ago
All discussions now on AJ are about formation of potential temporary goverment.
There are more than enough bright minds that would be upto the task. And with a nation of only 5 million Libyans it shouldn't be overwhelming IMHO despite the tribal allegiances.
Giving the abundant resources that Libya has it should also help speed things up. Oil is literally as good as gold/cash. Also it is reported that Qadaffi has excess of 130 billion dollars or "enough to feed the entire Arab world for 4 years."
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ same arguments re Iraq and oil revenue. Damn you people are either stupid or agents of the west.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
they are rats, roaches and druggies...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Earlier Thursday, Libyan TV showed Egyptian passports, CDs and cell phones purportedly belonging to detainees who had allegedly confessed to plotting "terrorist" operations against the Libyan people. Other footage showed a dozen men lying on the ground, with their faces down, blindfolded and handcuffed. Rifles and guns were laid out next to them.
Not that I support Gadaffi but the protesters are shown to be beating innocent folks simply cause they are black, and we are supposed to feel sorry for these clowns.
Do they really think they will change anything, who ever takes power in Lybia will be in Bed with either the West or with the Saudis, Both whom want to maintain the Status Quo, the difference is they want to Vote their next dictator in...LOL
Like some Poor Poverty Stricken Muslim Lybian has the chance of becoming ruler of Lybia and Braking ties from the U.S and the Saudi's..LOL.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Tripoli - A City in the Shadow of Death
Gunfire in the suburbs – and hunger and rumour in the capital as thousands race for last tickets out of a city sinking into anarchy
By Robert Fisk
February 24, 2011 "The Independent" - -Up to 15,000 men, women and children besieged Tripoli's international airport last night, shouting and screaming for seats on the few airliners still prepared to fly to Muammar Gaddafi's rump state, paying Libyan police bribe after bribe to reach the ticket desks in a rain-soaked mob of hungry, desperate families. Many were trampled as Libyan security men savagely beat those who pushed their way to the front.
Among them were Gaddafi's fellow Arabs, thousands of them Egyptians, some of whom had been living at the airport for two days without food or sanitation. The place stank of faeces and urine and fear. Yet a 45-minute visit into the city for a new airline ticket to another destination is the only chance to see Gaddafi's capital if you are a "dog" of the international press.
There was little sign of opposition to the Great Leader. Squads of young men with Kalashnikov rifles stood on the side roads next to barricades of upturned chairs and wooden doors. But these were pro-Gaddafi vigilantes – a faint echo of the armed Egyptian "neighbourhood guard" I saw in Cairo a month ago – and had pinned photographs of their leader's infamous Green Book to their checkpoint signs.
There is little food in Tripoli, and over the city there fell a blanket of drab, sullen rain. It guttered onto an empty Green Square and down the Italianate streets of the old capital of Tripolitania. But there were no tanks, no armoured personnel carriers, no soldiers, not a fighter plane in the air; just a few police and elderly men and women walking the pavements – a numbed populace. Sadly for the West and for the people of the free city of Benghazi, Libya's capital appeared as quiet as any dictator would wish.
But this is an illusion. Petrol and food prices have trebled; entire towns outside Tripoli have been torn apart by fighting between pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces. In the suburbs of the city, especially in the Noufreen district, militias fought for 24 hours on Sunday with machine guns and pistols, a battle the Gadaffi forces won. In the end, the exodus of expatriates will do far more than street warfare to bring down the regime.
I was told that at least 30,000 Turks, who make up the bulk of the Libyan construction and engineering industry, have now fled the capital, along with tens of thousands of other foreign workers. On my own aircraft out of Tripoli, an evacuation flight to Europe, there were Polish, German, Japanese and Italian businessmen, all of whom told me they had closed down major companies in the past week. Worse still for Gaddafi, the oil, chemical and uranium fields of Libya lie to the south of "liberated" Benghazi. Gaddafi's hungry capital controls only water resources, so a temporary division of Libya, which may have entered Gaddafi's mind, would not be sustainable. Libyans and expatriates I spoke to yesterday said they thought he was clinically insane, but they expressed more anger at his son, Saif al-Islam. "We thought Saif was the new light, the 'liberal'", a Libyan businessman sad to me. "Now we realise he is crazier and more cruel than his father."
The panic that has now taken hold in what is left of Gaddafi's Libya was all too evident at the airport. In the crush of people fighting for tickets, one man, witnessed by an evacuated Tokyo car-dealer, was beaten so viciously on the head that "his face fell apart".
Talking to Libyans in Tripoli and expatriates at the airport, it is clear that neither tanks nor armour were used in the streets of Tripoli. Air attacks targeted Benghazi and other towns, but not the capital. Yet all spoke of a wave of looting and arson by Libyans who believed that with the fall of Benghazi, Gaddafi was finished and the country open to anarchy.
The centre of the city was largely closed up. All foreign offices have been shut including overseas airlines, and every bakery I saw was shuttered. Rumours abound that members of Gaddafi's family are trying to flee abroad. Although William Hague's ramblings about Gaddafi's flight to Venezuela have been disproved, I spoke to a number of Libyans who believed that Burkina Faso might be his only viable retreat. Two nights ago, a Libyan private jet approached Beirut airport with a request to land but was refused permission when the crew declined to identify their eight passengers. And last night, a Libyan Arab Airlines flight reported by Al Jazeera to be carrying Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha, was refused permission to land in Malta.
Gaddafi is blamed by Shia Muslims in Lebanon, Iraq and Iran for the murder of Imam Moussa Sadr, a supposedly charismatic divine who unwisely accepted an invitation to visit Gaddafi in 1978 and, after an apparent argument about money, was never seen again. Nor was a Lebanese journalist accompanying him on the trip.
While dark humour has never been a strong quality in Libyans, there was one moment at Tripoli airport yesterday which proved it does exist. An incoming passenger from a Libyan Arab Airlines flight at the front of an immigration queue bellowed out: "And long life to our great leader Muammar Gaddafi." Then he burst into laughter – and the immigration officers did the same.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Not that I support Gadaffi but the protesters are shown to be beating innocent folks simply cause they are black, and we are supposed to feel sorry for these clowns.
Do they really think they will change anything, who ever takes power in Lybia will be in Bed with either the West or with the Saudis, Both whom want to maintain the Status Quo, the difference is they want to Vote their next dictator in...LOL
Like some Poor Poverty Stricken Muslim Lybian has the chance of becoming ruler of Lybia and Braking ties from the U.S and the Saudi's..LOL.
It's unfortunate and the backlash is the result of Qadaffi's regime portrayal of black Africans as unethical people, and of course Qadaffi's use of sub-Saharan mercenaries. Black non-North African males are being apprehended and questioned. These are Black Africans that fit the profile of sub-Saharan mercenaries who are killing Libyan civilians on Qadaffi's orders. Are there other mercenaries from Serbia and Russia, yes there are but unlike sub-Sahran African's they are not in the streets. They are part of Qadaffi's security detail. He is using the black African mercenaries to do the dirty work.
This backlash would probably arise in every country that was in a state of war or chaos. And again it is unfortunate but the seeds of this resentment were planted by Qadaffi regime long before this revolution began. Despite this fact there are ignorant posters who support “Big Brother.”
This isn't propaganda, it is detailed in UN Human Rights Reports. Qadaffi in one breath would bark borderless African unity and in another would order the expulsion of black Africans from Libya. Black Africans who were treated by the Libyan government like animals.
Medium term I expect sub-Saharan African males who are innocent to be eventually released from detention, and there are reports of hundreds in custody, in Benghazi alone. Long term I expect sub-Saharan males to have a difficult time remaining in Libya, as their work and residence permits will not be renewed.
The only sub-Saharan governments that are proactive in repatriating their citizens are Nigeria and South Africa, and 1 or 2 more. As for feeling sorry for them, there is no need, the Libyans are heroes and hopefully one day sub-Sahran Africans will emulate the bravery of Libyans and free their countries from their own tyrants. The slave mentality that is exhibited by you and others is testament of your own inferiority complex. The fact on the ground is quite the opposite, and the slave/fear mentality is eroding in North Africa.
This unprecedented revolution is only days old, with over 75% of Libya in revolutionaries control. Yet those with slave/fear mentalities can't grasp this unprecedented significance.
Enjoy history in the making.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^STFU you idiotic racist...
Libya is a black African country dominated today by the descendants of colonial Italics, migrating and rootless Turkics, and the remenants of the pink Egyptian mameluke slaves...
You cagotic strangers come into mother Africa and attempt not only to steal our heritage but you would also kill us in our own land.
That is done now.
The rupture has occurred and the whole world is looking disgusted at you rats, roaches and druggies, as you put on an ugly show worthy of the KKK.
You will never get liberty at the expense of African history and legacy. There will be no peace in Libie without justice for Africans whose land have been stolen.
Down with Al Qaeda activists. Long Live Colonel Brother Moamar Khadafi. Although he is part Turk-Italian, he respects the African owners of Libie.... unlike hungry roaches like the Turkic pink ass called Exiile...
Fiyah buuuuuuuurrrrrrn!
Lion!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Libya's oil production accounts for TWO percent of entire global production! What should it have to do with anything? Why the incredible price hikes for a mere TWO percent?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: THE WAR IS OVER!
BIG BROTHA KHADAFI REIGNS!
Exiile, I told your Turkic arse so, didnjai?
Run run run, Khadafi coming for your arse with his "black African" soldiers.
Africa for Africans
Italy for Italians
Turkmenistan for Turkics...
Lest we forget....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Libya's oil production accounts for TWO percent of entire global production! What should it have to do with anything? Why the incredible price hikes for a mere TWO percent?
Now you are beginning to ask the relevant questions. Follow the money! Who gains?
International Finance and the CIA have come for Libie's oil and it is using ignorant touts, rats and roaches to cause internal destabilization.
If they do not succeed that way, CIA and International finance will use their financial and military networks to continue the attempt at stealing Africa's wealth....
And hapless roaches like Exiile would be still clueless in any event... Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Just a suggestion for Foreign Heads sitting around scratching their heads and behinds trying to figure this all out: HOW ABOUT A LITTLE HUMANITARIAN AID DROPPED OFF AT EGYPT AND TUNISIA BORDERS!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Libya's oil production accounts for TWO percent of entire global production! What should it have to do with anything? Why the incredible price hikes for a mere TWO percent?
I believe the economic formula is:
$0.025 (2.5 US cents) increase for every gallon of gas at the pump - for every $1 increase of a Barrel of Oil. This excludes taxes, so it could amount to much more in Europe than it does in the US. But considering that Oil has increased about $15 (for Brent oil) since the Libyan Revolution began a gallon of gas for Europeans should cost .30 cents more (excluding taxes) in March, not in February. It would be less than that in the US, as US oil increase less than Brent Oil.
So despite being only 2% of the world's output, the price of oil on the market is effected on a whole. It's certainly exploited and something to sneer at.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Just a suggestion for Foreign Heads sitting around scratching their heads and behinds trying to figure this all out: HOW ABOUT A LITTLE HUMANITARIAN AID DROPPED OFF AT EGYPT AND TUNISIA BORDERS!
^the rats are goin get hungry.. this is just a beginning..
Famine is around the corner $10 dollars for a bushel of wheat
Get ready to drink your oil reserve! Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Libya's oil production accounts for TWO percent of entire global production! What should it have to do with anything? Why the incredible price hikes for a mere TWO percent?
I believe the economic formula is:
$0.025 (2.5 US cents) increase for every gallon of gas at the pump - for every $1 increase of a Barrel of Oil. This excludes taxes, so it could amount to much more in Europe than it does in the US. But considering that Oil has increased about $15 (for Brent oil) since the Libyan Revolution began a gallon of gas for Europeans should cost .30 cents more (excluding taxes) in March, not in February. It would be less than that in the US, as US oil increase less than Brent Oil.
So despite being only 2% of the world's output, the price of oil on the market is effected on a whole. It's certainly exploited and something to sneer at.
LOL what gibberish! LoL..what a scholar
Rat economics!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Just a suggestion for Foreign Heads sitting around scratching their heads and behinds trying to figure this all out: HOW ABOUT A LITTLE HUMANITARIAN AID DROPPED OFF AT EGYPT AND TUNISIA BORDERS!
Totally agree Laura. Basic items such as powered milk, baby formula, rice, etc. The food distribution system in major cities is down. And air drops in Tripoli would be humane as well. But the UN is all talk, and when they do act, it'll be after countless people die, deaths that could have been prevented.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Just a suggestion for Foreign Heads sitting around scratching their heads and behinds trying to figure this all out: HOW ABOUT A LITTLE HUMANITARIAN AID DROPPED OFF AT EGYPT AND TUNISIA BORDERS!
Totally agree Laura. Basic items such as powered milk, baby formula, rice, etc. The food distribution system in major cities is down. And air drops in Tripoli would be humane as well. But the UN is all talk, and when they do act, it'll be after countless people die, deaths that could have been prevented.
Mooobarrak is gonna starve your lazy butts.. Colonel Ghadafi gonna cut your water
Lets see where this "brave" revolution gets your Turkics, Italiacs and Mamelukes..
Raats and Roaches! Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I think the ones who actually take him seriously must be poorlier still...
Such imbecility is on full display. Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I think the ones who actually take him seriously must be poorlier still...
Such imbecility is on full display.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
In a week from now, the imbeciles will be on full showcase...
Happily, we will all be around.
My predictions:
Khadafi survives in a chaotic Libya;
Boutefilka survives in Algerie
King Hussein survives in Morocco
Ali Saleh will still be there in Yemen but weaker
Nothing will change in Bharain or Saudi besides the recently paid bribes
Egypt starves, Tunisia starves, .... modern day slavery
Watch and see who is gonna be smiling in a weeks time.
Follow the money! Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Moobaaraak is still King in Sharam.. seaside
His business, banks and hotels are still making billions;
His army buddies and juniors are holding forth!
The rats are starving and shivering... what happened to their revolution?
Follow the money... Who gains, wins!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"Please help us, my good friend Tony Blair": Gaddafi's son asks for former PM's help to 'crush enemies'
It seems that Blair and Gadaffis relationship is more than meets the eye. I hope they will be very happy together. Maybe they can share the same prison cell for those who are war criminals. - sebastian toombs, bucks, 25/2/2011 09:43
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Colonel Ghadafi's speech on Tuesday - broadcast live on television from what looked like a ruined garden shed - brought huge crowds [of Libyans] out into the streets celebrating into the early hours with music and fireworks.
annaleasaturday RT @BBCWorld: British PM David Cameron condemns violence in #Libya; warns Colonel Gaddafi that 'no one is beyond reach of international law' Oh yeah right Mister Cameron, tell that to the ppl of Palestine - the NeverEnding Hypocrisy of it all! Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
" S. Korea uses balloons to spread news of Egypt, Libya to N. Koreans."
Love their ingenuity Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Colonel Ghadafi
The Dean of Arab Kings and Presidents!
Peace!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Intense fighting in Tripoli. Mitiga International Airpport outside Tripoli has FALLEN to revolutionaires. I repeat Mitiga International Airport has fallen to the pro-democracy revolutionaires.
1502 GMT: The Guardian's Martin Chulov is reporting that the Mitiga air base in Tripoli has fallen to opposition forces. This is a "major blow" to security operations, as the planes that have been attacking protesters have launched from there.
1450 GMT: Al Jazeera has receieved reports that Libyan security forces tried to retake the coastal town of Zawiyah, 50 kilometers west of Tripoli, but anti-government protesters have retained control of the town.
@Laura - I love it. Free North Korea Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Not that I support Gadaffi but the protesters are shown to be beating innocent folks simply cause they are black, and we are supposed to feel sorry for these clowns.
Do they really think they will change anything, who ever takes power in Lybia will be in Bed with either the West or with the Saudis, Both whom want to maintain the Status Quo, the difference is they want to Vote their next dictator in...LOL
Like some Poor Poverty Stricken Muslim Lybian has the chance of becoming ruler of Lybia and Braking ties from the U.S and the Saudi's..LOL.
It's unfortunate and the backlash is the result of Qadaffi's regime portrayal of black Africans as unethical people, and of course Qadaffi's use of sub-Saharan mercenaries. Black non-North African males are being apprehended and questioned. These are Black Africans that fit the profile of sub-Saharan mercenaries who are killing Libyan civilians on Qadaffi's orders. Are there other mercenaries from Serbia and Russia, yes there are but unlike sub-Sahran African's they are not in the streets. They are part of Qadaffi's security detail. He is using the black African mercenaries to do the dirty work.
This backlash would probably arise in every country that was in a state of war or chaos. And again it is unfortunate but the seeds of this resentment were planted by Qadaffi regime long before this revolution began. Despite this fact there are ignorant posters who support “Big Brother.”
This isn't propaganda, it is detailed in UN Human Rights Reports. Qadaffi in one breath would bark borderless African unity and in another would order the expulsion of black Africans from Libya. Black Africans who were treated by the Libyan government like animals.
Medium term I expect sub-Saharan African males who are innocent to be eventually released from detention, and there are reports of hundreds in custody, in Benghazi alone. Long term I expect sub-Saharan males to have a difficult time remaining in Libya, as their work and residence permits will not be renewed.
The only sub-Saharan governments that are proactive in repatriating their citizens are Nigeria and South Africa, and 1 or 2 more. As for feeling sorry for them, there is no need, the Libyans are heroes and hopefully one day sub-Sahran Africans will emulate the bravery of Libyans and free their countries from their own tyrants. The slave mentality that is exhibited by you and others is testament of your own inferiority complex. The fact on the ground is quite the opposite, and the slave/fear mentality is eroding in North Africa.
This unprecedented revolution is only days old, with over 75% of Libya in revolutionaries control. Yet those with slave/fear mentalities can't grasp this unprecedented significance.
Enjoy history in the making.
LOL, Racist.
Now you justify the abuse of innocent blacks by you Turkish, Goth, Euro bred mutts as somehow the master mind of Gaddafi.
Of course you Sand Dwelling rats would not attack Russians, you only hate blacks.
The Only slave here is the one thinking the little uprising by Poverty Stricken Lybians is of any signifigance, the greatest slave is the slave that thinks he is free.
Ill give you all 6 months before some other Dictator comes in and feeds you all some feel good Pro Islam Pro Lybia non sense like Gaddafi did when he took over the Monarchy, all the while maintaing the status quo.
You forget you Fathers and Mothers, Grand Father and Grand mothers Rallied around Gaddafi with admiration on Par with Nasser in Egypt.
Yet 40 yrs later we see the result...LOL.
Poverty Sticken Lybians beating the Original Black Lybians when these Poverty Stricken mutts needed a Black Tunisian to Set Himself on Fire to Stand up to dictators.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Meskeen Ausar, meskeen kateer awi awi awi
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Kadaffi RANTING on tv again!! In public at Green Square.
The clock shows 7, but it's almost dark out now and its daylight when he is speaking, I bet this was recorded this morning, and is NOT live at all.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Kadaffi RANTING on tv again!! In public at Green Square.
The clock shows 7, but it's almost dark out now and its daylight when he is speaking, I bet this was recorded this morning, and is NOT live at all.
Exactly. It's looking more and more staged as the footage is further scrutunized.
Posted by Pink cherry (Member # 13979) on :
Is Gadaffi MAD?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Saif Qaddaffi looks and body language say it all – he is terrified. Here he is talking to a news reporter in front of a huge map of Libya, detailing and pointing at various areas and describing (lying) what is going on across the country.
Some of his points:
1- Benghazi is in total chaos
False! There are live TV crews there and they describe the atmosphere there are jubilant. Just look at the Benghazi video in this thread.
2- He said Derna has proclaimed a “Micky Mouse" "Islamic State”
False! The residents of Derna made a live televised statement last night on most Arabic news networks, and categorically denied such lies by Qaddafi's regime.
There were clashes still outside the city and the pro-Ghadafi forces have been able to strike back and so far keep the protesting terrorist racists from infiltrating the city, or at least what is left of it.
With pro-Ghadafi forces in the streets of Zawiya demanding everyone prove their loyalty, the city has become a virtual ghost town.
......
Addressing the people of Zawiya, he sent condolences to the families of the dead and wounded. "These are our children," he said. "We are quite upset about the senseless loss of lives."
Zawiya's residents are free to do as they like, though there will be consequences, he said. "If you want to pit against one another, then it's up to you," he said. "But the borders of the city will be sealed in order to stop it from spreading elsewhere."
Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Ghadafi has won back Zawiya!
Ignorance Is Bliss
Propaganda is a fool's medicine..
Time will tell! Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: @ tha racist pink Turkic Exiile:
F****** terrorists!
ROFL Oh the irony there
Pink people have feelings to you know, lol.
Your posts are 95% off topic and 100% moronic, basically aimed to start a race row. Can't you take it to someone who cares? I think it's blindingly obvious no one wants to play here but you will keep plug-plugging away.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Why does this new White House Spokesperson remind me of Opie from the Andy Griffith Show?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: @ tha racist pink Turkic Exiile:
F****** terrorists!
ROFL Oh the irony there
Classic!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Bro Ghadafi Speaks!
Moammar Gadhafi made a public appearance aired on state television Friday, telling his supporters to "sing, dance and be happy." ...
Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
You find inspiration in that?! It's pure lunacy. He's a lunatic. It's a revolution with thousands of his own people dead. It's not a party. He's out of touch with reality.
It explains your own absurdity, ignorance, and inability to express yourself in an intelligent manner.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
A page back you were saying true Libyans are black?
Interesting...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
A page back you were saying true Libyans are black?
Interesting...
Did you see any other persons but Muurish people?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: @ tha racist pink Turkic Exiile:
F****** terrorists!
ROFL Oh the irony there
Pink people have feelings to you know, lol.
Your posts are 95% off topic and 100% moronic, basically aimed to start a race row. Can't you take it to someone who cares? I think it's blindingly obvious no one wants to play here but you will keep plug-plugging away.
Sweetie,
I aint playing with you too. And race war? You already got one on your laps.
How dare your pink arse sit there and justify unprovoked aggression by rats and roaches against struggling African people in African owned Libya?
You got a fuching war on your fuching ho!
Ghadafi and his "black African army" are also coming to get your dirty, racist, cold-blooded, bitchy, stone-hearted ho of an arse!!!
Fiyah fi ya boomboclaat!!! Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Bro Ghadafi Speaks!
Moammar Gadhafi made a public appearance aired on state television Friday, telling his supporters to "sing, dance and be happy." ...
Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
You find inspiration in that?! It's pure lunacy. He's a lunatic. It's a revolution with thousands of his own people dead. It's not a party. He's out of touch with reality.
It explains your own absurdity, ignorance, and inability to express yourself in an intelligent manner.
Liard! Liard! Liar!
You are a confirmed ass-licker, and butt kisser for the pink white bois. So go do your job sell out!
But Ghadafi is a better choice to me than people like you, your family or your friends.
Cause you are one heartless pretentious Turkic snake, lurking in Africa to strike down trhe true children of the land.
Your days are over, reptilian. Turk is fighting turk in Libya and Africans will come out the winners!
Lion! Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well that's not very nice is it Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: @ tha racist pink Turkic Exiile:
F****** terrorists!
ROFL Oh the irony there
Pink people have feelings to you know, lol.
Your posts are 95% off topic and 100% moronic, basically aimed to start a race row. Can't you take it to someone who cares? I think it's blindingly obvious no one wants to play here but you will keep plug-plugging away.
Sweetie,
I aint playing with you too. And race war? You already got one on your laps.
How dare your pink arse sit there and justify unprovoked aggression by rats and roaches against struggling African people in African owned Libya?
You got a fuching war on your fuching ho!
Ghadafi and his "black African army" are also coming to get your dirty, racist, cold-blooded, bitchy, stone-hearted ho of an arse!!!
Fiyah fi ya boomboclaat!!!
More antics, more irrationality and more incoherence. You played the race card ad nauseum, when it is clearly you that manifests racist tendencies. But now you attacking a lady. You the man dog. That's what you want to hear.
Anything to distract from your inability to keep up in this thread, right? Something not right in your head, somehow I feel this isn't the first time you heard this. You're nothing more than an irrational racist bully.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Actually, I'm quite impressed that Gaddifi can take time out of his incoherent ranting to be with us tonight.
Yeah, Ironlion. I'm onto you mate.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Bro Ghadafi Speaks!
Moammar Gadhafi made a public appearance aired on state television Friday, telling his supporters to "sing, dance and be happy." ...
Watch the CNN Video of Ghadafi's Speech in the open in Libya's Green Square. Thousands of thousands of true Libyans singing and dancing...
You find inspiration in that?! It's pure lunacy. He's a lunatic. It's a revolution with thousands of his own people dead. It's not a party. He's out of touch with reality.
It explains your own absurdity, ignorance, and inability to express yourself in an intelligent manner.
Liard! Liard! Liar!
You are a confirmed ass-licker, and butt kisser for the pink white bois. So go do your job sell out!
But Ghadafi is a better choice to me than people like you, your family or your friends.
Cause you are one heartless pretentious Turkic snake, lurking in Africa to strike down trhe true children of the land.
Your days are over, reptilian. Turk is fighting turk in Libya and Africans will come out the winners!
Lion!
When/if you are able to express yourself in a coherent and rational way, your posts will get my attention. And don't mistake this with intelligence because that would be unfair in this regard because there are obvious limitations on your part.
But it's more than appropriate to ignore someone who is an idiot and can't keep up in a discussion. Your inconsistencies, absurdity and hypocrisy are all to familiar. When you first entered this discussion, you was barking the war is over, there is peace in Benghazi, failing to comprehend that peace was in Benghazi because it was liberated. I silently felt embarrassed for you. Then in this very thread you scorn Tunisia's revolution, but in another thread that you started in Ancient Egypt Forum you was all Viva Tunisa Revolution You are a flip-flopping racist, and again something wrong with your head dude.
First you vituperate subliminal hatred against your so-called "black Africans" mecenaries. Then you gleefully put up a hateful posting of a desecreated body of a Libyan soldier in Uniform because you would classify him as your so-called black. Then you tried to lie about it.
You are a fool if you think I give a fuch about Colonel Ghadafi nor the band of roaches crawling around the alleys of Benghazi. I wish you all dead like the black Libyan soldier whom you posted his descerated body.
And you all will die like that too. In your thousands and your two thousands.
Be embarrassed for your Turkic ass, caught out in its fully blown ugliness, as you attempt to build your liberation at the expense of innocent Africans. Shame on you, roach, shame on you!
Tunisia revolution has nothing to do with the attempted coup plot in Libya. Tunisia was an isolated case, seized upon by western intelligence agency and lakeys like you to rail road their way to Libyan oil reserves like they did in Iraq.
You are too stuupid and unsophisticated to penetrate this perspective. You either work for CIA, or you are one cheap sell-out, ready to trade his so-called people for thirty pieces of silver and nebulous concepts as freedom and democracy.
When you first began this thread, you were barking about how Ghadafi was already to fall, how his daughter fled to Malta, how the Colonel himself had been chased out to Venezuela. You forget? Hehehe... Who is laughing now?
Benghazi will quietly roll over as well when the African army appears. There is peace in Benghazi!
All to say, that your murderous genocidal asses, I mean you mongrel half born Turkic immigrants of North Africa, will get tied up in a straight jacket and sent running back to the land of your ancestors, Turkemenistan.
See your asses running away from Libie... see the refugees fleeing... roaches and rats
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Actually, I'm quite impressed that Gaddifi can take time out of his incoherent ranting to be with us tonight.
Yeah, Ironlion. I'm onto you mate.
I make you a Commandante after we crush the coup plottings... hehehe..
Viva Cuba! LOL I mean Libie! Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Will you really? Gosh, that is kind Mr G
...But I don't want to move to Venezeula
You know these are the same kind of a$$holes ruling with an iron fist who drove Berbers out of that part of Africa in the first place. I don't understand why anyone would be pro-dictator. If they can establish democracy, one person one vote, black, Arab, heck, even the pinkies, I don't get why anyone would be against that??
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Those so-called pro-democracy rioters are calling for coup d'etat. That is asking to replace a so-called dictatorship with dictatorship.
Does that make sense?
Then they are attacking and killing innocent fellow black Libyans calling them sub-saharan Africans.. Do you want to see such a mob succeed? You cannot build freedom while you enslave another.
Is there not one man one vote in Jamahiriyya? is it not rule by citizen's committe? What does democracy have over Jamahiriyya?
What more democracy is more democratic than the principles of Jamahirriyya?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
They want democracy and I hope that they get it. All Libyans have been oppressed under the regime. You can't want oppression to continue, surely?
Maybe you're right. Maybe the military will take over and another Gaddafi will sprout up right in his place. But if they do, they should be mindful of the power of the people. This has set a precedent and could be replicated again and again until the people get what they want. It's being replicated all over the ME already. You live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free, don't they call it? Land of opportunity? Why am I even telling you this! You kicked our lot out for precisely this reason - because you wanted to be free. To have your opportunity. To put an end to the oppression.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
If only people knew what kind of democracy the imperialist system has prepared for them. The capitalist bankers are only interested in breaking a country wide open and exploiting its people and resources like cattle.
The party is just beginning...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: ... You live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free, don't they call it? Land of opportunity? Why am I even telling you this! You kicked our lot out for precisely this reason - because you wanted to be free. To have your opportunity. To put an end to the oppression.
America for me is the rivers of Babylon a land where I have sorrowed and cried; where I have been marked by my colour where I am set up for hatred and derision;
It may be your land of opportunity it is a land of my humiliation.
America for me is a land of unfairness a land where my blood slaved and built;
Yet I am excluded by an invisible system whilst strangers from Russia and Mongolia get invited to the dinner table.
Not that I mind? All I ever need is a lil sugar for me tea, you guys can eat your cake. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Firing into the air is much nicer than aiming for heads and chests as they were just a few weeks ago.
Our riot police use batons.
Banks are unstable these days. Only last year here they were going bust and those capitalist bankers were bawling on the street when the arrived to work and the offices were shut. Bankers are interested in keeping an even keel - whatever that takes - and therein saving themselves.
In Egypt I think the protestors will keep coming until they get what they want. They took a giant leap. Now maybe some baby steps are in order for the transition to take place sensibly.
But they'll be well aware there of the power of the people. It's spooked them. They're on a backfoot.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Reports Libyan Capital fell to Pro-Democracy protestors.
wow. so fast.
AJ Live
Look ...., who is looking like a fool now? Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ LOL, for real, Im suprised these Oh So Intelligent posters rallying for the Lybians don't realize yet the future of Lybia will remain under control of the Oil Cartel, the PRivate Banks etc.
These clowns think Lybia is different than Iraq and Afghanistan?? LOL, they actually think they will get control with democracy..LOL, when Americans don't even get real democracy.
Even now Benghazi is under control of the Elite and Lawyers, The LYbians are rooting for them just and the Lybians rooted for Qaddafi 40 yrs ago..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: ... You live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free, don't they call it? Land of opportunity? Why am I even telling you this! You kicked our lot out for precisely this reason - because you wanted to be free. To have your opportunity. To put an end to the oppression.
America for me is the rivers of Babylon a land where I have sorrowed and cried; where I have been marked by my colour where I am set up for hatred and derision;
It may be your land of opportunity it is a land of my humiliation.
America for me is a land of unfairness a land where my blood slaved and built;
Yet I am excluded by an invisible system whilst strangers from Russia and Mongolia get invited to the dinner table.
Not that I mind? All I ever need is a lil sugar for me tea, you guys can eat your cake.
Ironlion, if those are your words, maybe you need a revolution there too??
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Firing into the air is much nicer than aiming for heads and chests as they were just a few weeks ago.
Our riot police use batons.
Banks are unstable these days. Only last year here they were going bust and those capitalist bankers were bawling on the street when the arrived to work and the offices were shut. Bankers are interested in keeping an even keel - whatever that takes - and therein saving themselves.
In Egypt I think the protestors will keep coming until they get what they want. They took a giant leap. Now maybe some baby steps are in order for the transition to take place sensibly.
But they'll be well aware there of the power of the people. It's spooked them. They're on a backfoot.
I grew up under a dictatorship..., military coups... yikes, gibbers! Nasty like slavery!
Now, you should never give up any form of government for military coups! That is second slavery... mark my words!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: ... You live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free, don't they call it? Land of opportunity? Why am I even telling you this! You kicked our lot out for precisely this reason - because you wanted to be free. To have your opportunity. To put an end to the oppression.
America for me is the rivers of Babylon a land where I have sorrowed and cried; where I have been marked by my colour where I am set up for hatred and derision;
It may be your land of opportunity it is a land of my humiliation.
America for me is a land of unfairness a land where my blood slaved and built;
Yet I am excluded by an invisible system whilst strangers from Russia and Mongolia get invited to the dinner table.
Not that I mind? All I ever need is a lil sugar for me tea, you guys can eat your cake.
Ironlion, if those are your words, maybe you need a revolution there too??
This is Satan city, Sin city, AmeriKKKas It is mystery babylon, sodom and gomorrah the corrupter of the entire earth!
Now America is the home of many evil spirits and principalities and powers...
Revolutions do not work here.
Here we fight with mystics, mind over matter...
Look now, we are still here, moving forward inspite of slavery and racism...
America will be our heritage, in the end when we take control of the hearts and minds via mind over matter mind-control....
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well, I'm offski. It's getting late.
I have found this an eye opener, I have to say. It's a lot more constructive than just popping in every now and again to call us pinkies and hos, anyway Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Sorry bout that, Sweetheart, but that Exiiled poster, posted a KKK like video-picture there; and I had no choice but to let him feel it full blast! Mind tackling matter!
The truth is for eveyone.
Goodnight..
Lion!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Mmmm... I don't think it would have been intended that way. I don't think Exiiled is racist.
Anyhoo, tararabit.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Draft UN resolution they're hoping to pass by the end of the weekend:
First you vituperate subliminal hatred against your so-called "black Africans" mecenaries. Then you gleefully put up a hateful posting of a desecreated body of a Libyan soldier in Uniform because you would classify him as your so-called black. Then you tried to lie about it.
You are a fool if you think I give a fuch about Colonel Ghadafi nor the band of roaches crawling around the alleys of Benghazi. I wish you all dead like the black Libyan soldier whom you posted his descerated body.
And you all will die like that too. In your thousands and your two thousands.
Be embarrassed for your Turkic ass, caught out in its fully blown ugliness, as you attempt to build your liberation at the expense of innocent Africans. Shame on you, roach, shame on you!
Tunisia revolution has nothing to do with the attempted coup plot in Libya. Tunisia was an isolated case, seized upon by western intelligence agency and lakeys like you to rail road their way to Libyan oil reserves like they did in Iraq.
You are too stuupid and unsophisticated to penetrate this perspective. You either work for CIA, or you are one cheap sell-out, ready to trade his so-called people for thirty pieces of silver and nebulous concepts as freedom and democracy.
When you first began this thread, you were barking about how Ghadafi was already to fall, how his daughter fled to Malta, how the Colonel himself had been chased out to Venezuela. You forget? Hehehe... Who is laughing now?
Benghazi will quietly roll over as well when the African army appears. There is peace in Benghazi!
All to say, that your murderous genocidal asses, I mean you mongrel half born Turkic immigrants of North Africa, will get tied up in a straight jacket and sent running back to the land of your ancestors, Turkemenistan.
See your asses running away from Libie... see the refugees fleeing... roaches and rats
Lion!
I see I turned on a lightbulb, well that's probably impossible but at least you're able to complete a full sentence now. Now to debunk your fallacies.
First you vituperate subliminal hatred against your so-called "black Africans" mecenaries. Then you gleefully put up a hateful posting of a desecreated body of a Libyan soldier in Uniform because you would classify him as your so-called black. Then you tried to lie about it.
Gleefully is your choice of words, like so much other nonsense you invent. The fact was more astonishment at seeing a foreign mercenary hired by Qadaffi to kill his own people. You are also delusional and fooling yourself if you believe he was a Libyan. You base this on what? The fact is the very same people who killed him have more than once repeated in the video that he was not a Libyan. Your argument is based on a delusion.
You are a fool if you think I give a fuch about Colonel Ghadafi nor the band of roaches crawling around the alleys of Benghazi. I wish you all dead like the black Libyan soldier whom you posted his descerated body.
Again this is all in your mind. The fact is he was not a Libyan, and if you actually watch and listen to the video, you would realize this. He is a foreign mercenary who was paid money to kill civilians, he deserved everything he got. That's the thing with mercenaries, many times they don't live long enough to cash their checks.
Be embarrassed for your Turkic ass, caught out in its fully blown ugliness, as you attempt to build your liberation at the expense of innocent Africans. Shame on you, roach, shame on you!
O_o, you're being absurd again, conjecturing nonsense in your head. The revolution is being built with blood and flesh of Libyan civilians who are revolting. That is the fact. The thousands that are dead are Libyans. Could it possibly be that your entire argument is based on one “desecrated body” that your mind has tricked you into believing was a Libyan. By your antics, I wouldn't be surprised.
Tunisia revolution has nothing to do with the attempted coup plot in Libya. Tunisia was an isolated case, seized upon by western intelligence agency and lakeys like you to rail road their way to Libyan oil reserves like they did in Iraq.
That is your opinion that is contradicting the facts on the ground. The fact is Tunisia was a popular revolt. Yet you sit there conjecturing nonsense in your head. If you have proof, present it. Otherwise don't expect me nor anyone else to believe you, unless of course they are as absurd and baseless as you. Your entire thought process is absurd, one that is inspired by Qadaffi's speeches. You expect to be taken serious for things that your mind makes up?
You are too stuupid and unsophisticated to penetrate this perspective. You either work for CIA, or you are one cheap sell-out, ready to trade his so-called people for thirty pieces of silver and nebulous concepts as freedom and democracy.
Says the one who can't present a shred of evidence to back up these claims. You want to talk conspiracies, fine, but don't present them as fact.
When you first began this thread, you were barking about how Ghadafi was already to fall, how his daughter fled to Malta, how the Colonel himself had been chased out to Venezuela. You forget? Hehehe... Who is laughing now?
The difference is I don't conjecture things up. Everything newsworthy I write is based on news sources, such as Qaddaffi on the brink of falling, and Ayesha Qadaffi fleeing to Malta. And even Qadaffi fleeing to Venezuela. This revolution is not static, it is fluid, and events arise by the second and minute. More often than not I reference a news source.
Benghazi will quietly roll over as well when the African army appears. There is peace in Benghazi!
I seriously doubt you even know where Benghazi is. Here you are again, saying this will happen and that will happen, the Paper Lion whose mind is as blank as an empty whiteboard. Where is your proof? You expect anyone to believe what goes around your tiny brain as fact? The reality is, and right at this moment Benghazi is liberated, the reality is Benghazi yesterday set up a 14 person city council, the reality is Benghazi is sending Libyan men to fight in Tripoli. The only thing you have right is “there is peace in Benghazi.”
All to say, that your murderous genocidal asses, I mean you mongrel half born Turkic immigrants of North Africa, will get tied up in a straight jacket and sent running back to the land of your ancestors, Turkemenistan.
See your asses running away from Libie... see the refugees fleeing... roaches and rats
O_o you're being absurd yet again. You're a fantasist at best, you should write an imaginary tale with all your illusions and baseless notions. Also, ask Big Brother to help you. It'll be one hell of a comic book.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Reports Libyan Capital fell to Pro-Democracy protestors.
wow. so fast.
AJ Live
Look ...., who is looking like a fool now?
Not so fast Paper Lion, that event happened after Benghazi was liberated and before Saif Qadaffi gave a speech. The streets of Tripoli as described by the news source I quoted said the people had over run the city, and burned a ministry building. Overnight it was reported that Qadaffi sent his thugs to squash the rebellion in Tripoli.
The difference is I didn't conjecture this report. It was a report. I stated that and I referenced the news source. Why do I have the feeling that you are incapable of distinguishing the difference between conjecture and quoting news sources.
"Reports" "AJ Live" (Al-Jazeera) source
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Can't help but wonder, years from now, how many mass graves will be unearthed. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Sorry bout that, Sweetheart, but that Exiiled poster, posted a KKK like video-picture there; and I had no choice but to let him feel it full blast! Mind tackling matter!
The truth is for eveyone.
Goodnight..
Lion!
You initially greeted her with the word “Sweetie” followed by”: dirty, racist, cold-blooded, bitchy, stone-hearted ho of an arse!!!
Now you greet her with the word "Sweetheart" followed by I'm sorry.
All in the span of 24hrs
I doubt you are stable. You're seem a little loose in the membrane. Do you even know what you spew. You labeled her a racist, you labeled me a racist. Go look in the mirror, you see that sick person, that's the racist.
You're even driven by delusions (case in point the black African mercenary who wasn't even a Libyan)
Get it together dude. Probably asking too much from an unstable racist. Too much hate, and not enough intelligence is not a good mental makeup.
You're maybe borderline creative with poetry on par with a US junior high student, but focus more on facts rather than letting delusions take hold of your mind.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration froze assets of the Libyan government, leader Muammar Gaddafi and four of his children Friday, just hours after it closed the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli and evacuated its remaining staff. U.S. officials said announcements of the steps were withheld until Americans wishing to leave the country had departed as they feared Gaddafi might retaliate amid worsening violence in the North African country.
...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Can't help but wonder, years from now, how many mass graves will be unearthed.
Thousands? Tens of thousands? A 100,000?
One of the sickest revelations to date was the discovery of an underground prison under Qadaffi's palace compound. What kind of wicked people can sleep in a lavish palace compound with prisoners underground. That is right out of the Medieval era when kings subjected opponents to dungeons.
These prisoners weren't rapists or murderers. They were dissidents and political prisoners.
The image of the unearthed prison is at the bottom of the page.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: ... You live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free, don't they call it? Land of opportunity? Why am I even telling you this! You kicked our lot out for precisely this reason - because you wanted to be free. To have your opportunity. To put an end to the oppression.
America for me is the rivers of Babylon a land where I have sorrowed and cried; where I have been marked by my colour where I am set up for hatred and derision;
It may be your land of opportunity it is a land of my humiliation.
America for me is a land of unfairness a land where my blood slaved and built;
Yet I am excluded by an invisible system whilst strangers from Russia and Mongolia get invited to the dinner table.
Not that I mind? All I ever need is a lil sugar for me tea, you guys can eat your cake.
Quite true for most black Americans who all their lives have subsidized whites and other foreigners such as Israelis with spilling of African American blood, sweat, and yes, most important, sperm. These people have no idea of what awaits them in the Jewish controlled game of, Democracy. Those championing the fall of these middle-eastern countries from within are mostly Israeli agents, CIA, M6, and small groups of natives who have been hood-winked into doing the bidding of Google and Facebook managers who have shaped these social networks into SOCIAL-Political Weapons. Egypt was merely a test. The real goal of these Facebook led middle-eastern political re-shaping exercises are to destabilize these nations especially Iran, and Libya where the hope is, the people will be ignorant enough to take the advice of their Mossad infiltrators and install a western managed democracy conforming to the outlines of The New World Order.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
How boring is the race card when it appears in EVERY arguement.
Seriously...
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Spoken like a true privileged and happily ignorant white woman.
No one (except you pinkies) has forgotten who it is who invented and maintains the race card.
Seriously....
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Liars..
How many times have Ghadafi ordered Libyans to be bombed in the past?
Liars and lizards...
These fools may have forgotten that 15 years ago Ghadafi really angered the American Pink elite by offering to gift Farrakhan and the Nation Of Islam $1 Billion dollars to help in their fight against U.S. Racism and it's pink skinned promoters. Not surprisingly, the U.S. government rushed in and made it impossible for Ghadafi to transfer the funds, and began their usual smear campaigns against both Farrakhan and Ghadafi. All these horror reports are being propagated in major US JEWISH controlled media such as CNN, Huffington Post, MSNBC with opinion shaping headlines like; Ghadfi the Mad Man Kills Nation's first born, etc. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
King of Kings of Africa, soon to be King of Prison Cell in the Hague. [/QB]
Bush isn't in Hague and he's murdered millions! Neither are the Israeli TERRORISTS who created and infected the world with the Stuxnet virus. Where is your indignity here, Ashkenazi?
Ghadafi's proposal to unify Africa and stand strong against the west really rose the pink in that toilet paper skin, didn't it?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
A question for Gadaffi supporters. After seeing him speak recently, do you think he is mentally stable?
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: A question for Gadaffi supporters. After seeing him speak recently, do you think he is mentally stable?
LOL, people can't possibly be this ignorant, can they. Do you believe that George Bush and Chaney are mentally stable? How about those wacky and diseased Israelis or filthy, alcoholic Brits?
Ghadafi loves Leeza, but says he loves no Pink Hos;
Mouammar Khadafi strode onto the world stage when he and other young officers kicked out a King named Idris, who had charged foreign corporations the lowest prices in the world to suck out the nation’s oil wealth. That was back in 1969. By the time I had my encounter with Khadafi, 40 years later, in late October of 2009, he was still calling himself a socialist and sworn enemy of capitalism, and pushing his Green Book as a universal guide to social justice. But Khadafi had clearly reached an accommodation with the United States and the rich men of Europe. White and Asian corporate guys were everywhere in Tripoli, the capital, which was bursting at the seams with construction projects built by foreigners for foreign corporations. Libya and its six million inhabitants had become a full-fledged corporate “destination,” and Khadafi’s armed forces were in constant collaboration with the crack forces of the U.S. imperial war machine. Khadafi might tell visitors to his huge, personal tent at a military compound in the city, that he remained dedicated to destroying “capitalism,” but Washington, London and Paris didn’t seem to be worried.
Since 9/11, Khadafi has appeared more concerned with Islamic fundamentalists like those in neighboring Algeria whose suppression cost 200,000 lives than with American and European machinations. He has coordinated military maneuvers with the Americans in the Sahel region of North Africa, and worked closely with the CIA to ferret out Al Qaida-like elements. By 2008, Condoleezza Rice was in Tripoli. “I look forward to listening to the leader's world view," she said. Khadafi had already declared his love for the woman he called “Leeza,” his “darling African American woman” who, he said, “leans back and gives orders to the Arab leaders.”
“The worst possible consequence of the Libyan crisis would be for the United States to find some way to intervene.”
In 2009, the year I visited Libya with a delegation headed by former Georgia congresswoman and Green Party presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney, Khadafi had just signed an “historic” agreement on military and diplomatic cooperation. The United States African Command, Africom, and Libya pledged to work together on matters of peacekeeping, maritime security, counterterrorism and African security and stability.
Yet, there was Khadafi on television on Tuesday, looking nothing like the rather serene older man I’d encountered in the big tent 16 months ago, raging that he was under assault by some combination of the United States and Islamic militants. In that sense, his claims sounded very much like the last public words of former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, before he was hustled off the stage. Khadafi belittled his opponents as ignorant ingrates who knew nothing of their country's glories, or were just people high on hallucinogens. His son, Seif el Islam Khadafi, had previously threatened the Libyan people with civil war. Both father and son seemed out of touch, out of control, and on the way out. Which means the Libyan people are in danger.
But there is no greater danger to the independence and sovereignty of people's than U.S./Israel imperialism, which has no respect for anyone's rights. The worst possible consequence of the Libyan crisis would be for the United States to find some way to intervene, in any way whatsoever. Nothing that Washington does can possibly benefit the Libyan people, who must resolve their own problems.
For Black Agenda Radio, I'm Glen Ford.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
King of Kings of Africa, soon to be King of Prison Cell in the Hague.
Bush isn't in Hague and he's murdered millions! Neither are the Israeli TERRORISTS who created and infected the world with the Stuxnet virus. Where is your indignity here, Ashkenazi?
Ghadafi's proposal to unify Africa and stand strong against the west really rose the pink in that toilet paper skin, didn't it? [/QB]
Unfortunately the bottom of the barrel of corrupt world leaders usually get it. Noriega, Milosevic, Saddam, Taylor, Qaddafi, etc, etc. This doesn't equate to Bush and Co. being any less criminal. Much more progress will have to be made to prosecute the big fish, in the meantime a small fish (on the world stage) like Qadaffi is quite a nice catch.
As for Qadaffi unifying Africa, that is quite debatable and probably more laughable, as he was more of a divisive element than he was a unifying one. This in itself is a topic of its own. But a topic I would like to start in the near future. Africa does deserve unity, but the chances of it coming via the lunatic Qadaffi is no greater than him surving the revolution.
Desperation for a leader is one thing, but Qadaffi was never the answer for Africa. Someone sane like Mandela in his prime, perhaps, but not an unstable Qadaffi.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: [qb] A question for Gadaffi supporters. After seeing him speak recently, do you think he is mentally stable?
Do you believe that George Bush and Chaney are mentally stable? How about those wacky and diseased Israelis
No, and I would also add EVIL to that.
Will you answer my question now? Simple yes or no would be nice.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: [qb] A question for Gadaffi supporters. After seeing him speak recently, do you think he is mentally stable?
Do you believe that George Bush and Chaney are mentally stable? How about those wacky and diseased Israelis
No, and I would also add EVIL to that.
Will you answer my question now? Simple yes or no would be nice.
Ping! Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
King of Kings of Africa, soon to be King of Prison Cell in the Hague.
Bush isn't in Hague and he's murdered millions! Neither are the Israeli TERRORISTS who created and infected the world with the Stuxnet virus. Where is your indignity here, Ashkenazi?
Ghadafi's proposal to unify Africa and stand strong against the west really rose the pink in that toilet paper skin, didn't it?
Unfortunately the bottom of the barrel of corrupt world leaders usually get it. Noriega, Milosevic, Saddam, Taylor, Qaddafi, etc, etc. This doesn't equate to Bush and Co. being any less criminal. Much more progress will have to be made to prosecute the big fish, in the meantime a small fish (on the world stage) like Qadaffi is quite a nice catch.
As for Qadaffi unifying Africa, that is quite debatable and probably more laughable, as he was more of a divisive element than he was a unifying one. This in itself is a topic of its own. But a topic I would like to start in the near future. Africa does deserve unity, but the chances of it coming via the lunatic Qadaffi is no greater than him surving the revolution.
Desperation for a leader is one thing, but Qadaffi was never the answer for Africa. Someone sane like Mandela in his prime, perhaps, but not an unstable Qadaffi. [/QB]
The bottom of the barrel foreign leaders such as Noreiga, Saddam, and Taylor all have the common characteristic of being U.S. controlled puppets who were used by the US/Israel to sow division and instability in their respective regions. Once they began to break free from their US controllers, they became marked men and recipients of Israeli smear campaigns. Remember the US/Israel/British shoe-in, Idi Amin?
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: [qb] A question for Gadaffi supporters. After seeing him speak recently, do you think he is mentally stable?
Do you believe that George Bush and Chaney are mentally stable? How about those wacky and diseased Israelis
No, and I would also add EVIL to that.
Will you answer my question now? Simple yes or no would be nice.
Th question is irrelevant and over simplistic. Mental illness comes in many forms. Some forms are curable or treatable, while others are not.
I believe we all are affected psychologically by the bizarre world of hate created by chemically imbalanced albinos, if you realize it, or not.
I believe Albinos such as George Bush and Cheney are 10x more insane than Ghadafi, and 1000x more dangerous. They certainly have murdered 100000x more people then Ghadafi, in 1/10th of the time-frame. Given the chance, they would murder many many more. You albinos have many millions of Jeffrey Dahmers and Charles Manson's among you. You cannot help it. It's your brain chemistry. BTW: Brain chemistry imbalance due to Albino symptoms is also the reason the majority of Brits are drunks.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Spoken like a true privileged and happily ignorant white woman.
No one (except you pinkies) has forgotten who it is who invented and maintains the race card.
Seriously....
Privileged via hard work and determination living in EGYPT.
Ignorant white (pinkie woman) oooo sexist as well as racist.
I don't like you based on your personality... quite simple!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ This discussion has nothing to do with personal FEELINGS. I It has to do with historic fact, and common acknowledged truths. If you ask me, it's these that you actually do not like, and cause you distress. Not my personality.
It always makes me laugh when a Pink person attempts to label a person of color as, Racist. It's like Bank Of America's CEO calling a homeless person, Greedy.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
I completely understand. Denial is the first stage of mental illness. An insane person is the last to admit it to themselves.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Pink... you clearly have no idea how white skin looks in the sun
Btw, as a part Irish lass I am considered olive by intelligent people.
Quit attention seeking and looking around you to pick faults in other people to explain why your life sucks!!!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
I completely understand. Denial is the first stage of mental illness. An insane person is the last to admit it to themselves.
Great, now you can weasel your way back to your little "Pharonic Phoxhole" and argue again with those who give a rat's ass. Back to the TOPIC - LIBYA
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You know I actually enjoyed the convo with Ironlion last night. I don't agree with him on everything but it was a logical, rational, interesting discussion. He's lived through a military coup and I have to respect that. He (and obviously others here) feels persecuted under supposed democracy and that's a fair point to put across. It just comes across a lot better when it's explained gently rather than ranting and hurling abuse.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
I completely understand. Denial is the first stage of mental illness. An insane person is the last to admit it to themselves.
Great, now you can weasel your way back to your little "Pharonic Phoxhole" and argue again with those who give a rat's ass. Back to the TOPIC - LIBYA
Denial and ignorance again. The topic is war. War is a symptom of mental illness. I realize your brain imbalance prohibits logic, but try to IMAGINE being civilized and mentally stable.
Now, the mentally ill are whining that they are being abused. LOL, they probably are.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
I completely understand. Denial is the first stage of mental illness. An insane person is the last to admit it to themselves.
Great, now you can weasel your way back to your little "Pharonic Phoxhole" and argue again with those who give a rat's ass. Back to the TOPIC - LIBYA
Denial and ignorance again. The topic is war. War is a symptom of mental illness. I realize your brain imbalance prohibits logic, but try to IMAGINE being civilized and mentally stable.
Now, the mentally ill are whining that they are being abused. LOL, they probably are.
The funny thing is, I am probaly WITH you on 75% of your thoughts, I just feel you really need some "work" on your PR skills You start attacking before you even know who your REAL enemy is
Topic: #Libya
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I'm not really into this black/white/albino/pink/red/purple/blue/orange/yellow/rainbow nonsense. You know he is mentally unstable and you just can't say it. So be it!
I completely understand. Denial is the first stage of mental illness. An insane person is the last to admit it to themselves.
Great, now you can weasel your way back to your little "Pharonic Phoxhole" and argue again with those who give a rat's ass. Back to the TOPIC - LIBYA
Denial and ignorance again. The topic is war. War is a symptom of mental illness. I realize your brain imbalance prohibits logic, but try to IMAGINE being civilized and mentally stable.
Now, the mentally ill are whining that they are being abused. LOL, they probably are.
The funny thing is, I am probaly WITH you on 75% of your thoughts, I just feel you really need some "work" on your PR skills You start attacking before you even know who your REAL enemy is
Believe it or not, I have no enemies, and I have no HATE for anyone. My vision of the world is to see every capable person given the opportunity and support to develop expertise in their specific "passion", allowing them to meet or exceed their true potential. Unfortunately, the present world-view created by the Russian Ashkenazi believes in a world that eats and destroys it's young even before they comprehend the world in which they live. I'll fight this type of insanity until my dying day and make no excuse for failing to take time to wrap it all up in a "feel-good" presentation. All I care about is the quality of truth, not it's packaging.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Shoot the messenger, simply because you cannot champion, truth. Great strategy to achieve resolution. NOT! Very British of you. Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: My vision of the world is to see every capable person given the opportunity and support to develop expertise in their specific "passion", allowing them to meet or exceed their true potential.
AGREED!
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Shoot the messenger, simply because you cannot champion, truth. Great strategy to achieve resolution. NOT! Very British of you.
More sterotyping there sweetheart... how narrow minded of you.
I cannot argue with terminally ignorant people; it grinds me down and we all know that depression is linked to chemical imbalance too and wiht my alcoholism I wouldn't wanna go down that road lol.
Enoy thinking you are right and insulting the Brits, the white, women etc... I am of to take my lily white ass off into the real world before I get too involved in petty troll rows.
You are the messenger roflmwao!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Shoot the messenger, simply because you cannot champion, truth. Great strategy to achieve resolution. NOT! Very British of you.
More sterotyping there sweetheart... how narrow minded of you.
I cannot argue with terminally ignorant people; it grinds me down and we all know that depression is linked to chemical imbalance too and wiht my alcoholism I wouldn't wanna go down that road lol.
Enoy thinking you are right and insulting the Brits, the white, women etc... I am of to take my lily white ass off into the real world before I get too involved in petty troll rows.
You are the messenger roflmwao!
As I predicted. All that, to say; Nothing. Stop wasting people's time and head back over to the music and food sections. This discussion is way over your level of comprehension. Regurgitation of propaganda is pretty transparent and of little value. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Humanitarian Aid development.
Good news. Stores in Eastern Libya are re-stocking and open during daylight hours. -AJ Live
Immediate Aid:
Humanitarian aid arriving by plane in Benghazi. Qatar plane arrived. Kuwait plane in flight. UAE and Turkey also plan to send Humanitarian with the first planes due to arrive today. - AJ Live
US (don't know how that will materialize) but was reported they will supply aid.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
This topic is not rocket science lol... but bless you for thinking you are partaking in something intelligent Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I thought they bombed the airport in Benghazi?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Oh, he's racist... pretty sure he's not gay, but he can be brilliant and I am quite fond of him.
Good to see you again MK... missed you. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Listening to the speech from yesterday... was he always this loopy or is it a recent development?
I tried to read the green book but I couldn't get on with it myself. The plot was very weak. Think he's lost it already.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Don't Worry they do...
ironlion loves pink women and M.K, well I don't know about M.K...
Radical Racist Negros who preach Death to Whitey or Pinkies will always have a cryptonite fr white women...LOL
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: I thought they bombed the airport in Benghazi?
The only person who stated that was Egyptian FM Aboul Gheit. He's annoying.
"In its report, Al Jazeera added that Qatar has sent a relief plane to Libya that Qatar Airways said will land in Libya's second city Benghazi, which is in the hands of the protesters.."
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Just like a white woman. If a black man has no interest, than he is either gay or racist. LMBAO! Cause this is how many black slaves ended up on the end of a noose. Some flat ass white woman lusting after us black men. No need to be mad. There are others (less informed) who do not consider/comprehend the ramifications of their actions.
Check out this guy. He ran away and escaped from his "massa". The chick was in such a distress, she rode over to the sheriff's jail and picked up her "swing-thang" as soon as possible. Her face says; Just wait until tonight, Boy!"
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Oh, he's racist... pretty sure he's not gay, but he can be brilliant and I am quite fond of him.
Good to see you again MK... missed you.
M.K is always on point in politics, its too bad he lets his racism cloud his judgement in other things, but you are right M.K is brillian when it comes to politics(Not that I would ever admit he is brillian in the Egyptology section )
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Reports Libyan Capital fell to Pro-Democracy protestors.
wow. so fast.
AJ Live
Look ...., who is looking like a fool now?
Not so fast Paper Lion, that event happened after Benghazi was liberated and before Saif Qadaffi gave a speech. The streets of Tripoli as described by the news source I quoted said the people had over run the city, and burned a ministry building. Overnight it was reported that Qadaffi sent his thugs to squash the rebellion in Tripoli.
The difference is I didn't conjecture this report. It was a report. I stated that and I referenced the news source. Why do I have the feeling that you are incapable of distinguishing the difference between conjecture and quoting news sources.
"Reports" "AJ Live" (Al-Jazeera) source
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: When you first began this thread, you were barking about how Ghadafi was already to fall, how his daughter fled to Malta, how the Colonel himself had been chased out to Venezuela. You forget? Hehehe... Who is laughing now?
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: The difference is I don't conjecture things up. Everything newsworthy I write is based on news sources, such as Qaddaffi on the brink of falling, and Ayesha Qadaffi fleeing to Malta. And even Qadaffi fleeing to Venezuela. This revolution is not static, it is fluid, and events arise by the second and minute. More often than not I reference a news source.
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self... Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
How's about we open a new thread on Racism? Then those who want to talk about Libya can post there and you guys can continue your racism fest here?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
hahahaha... I was mocking you!!!
You seem to think if a women prefers blonde hair blue eyes she is racist!!!! (or I imagine a lesbian as there must be another reason why women don't like you as you told me it has nothing to do with your awful personality)
I love it when a plan comes together, and that wasn't rocke science where I was going with that comment either... reeled in
Now I am going to listen to the football... now who was it who said the EPL were racist too... pmsfl!!!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Thank you for the acknowledgements however, we cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Anyone who has followed any of my posts should understand that the reality of melanin completely discredits and demolishes the reactionary white projection, RACE. The world has only one race and that is (BLACK) MAN..and his mutations.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: How's about we open a new thread on Racism? Then those who want to talk about Libya can post there and you guys can continue your racism fest here?
The truth is for everyone Browns and pinks, alike.
The whole talk about "black African mecenaries" linked with Libya is a subliminal act of theft, cultural and historical, a genocidal attempt, to finish off what is left of black people in Libya.
The troubling question is this: who is behind this move?
We know that spineless pink asses like Exiile would support such a move. Kill two birds with one stone. Get rid of Ghadafi and get rid of the Black Libyans at the same time.
The light of truth always makes roaches uncomfortable. We must keep shinning the light of truth.
Otherwise the winter cold and darkness will overwhelm...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self... [/QB][/QUOTE]
What I do know about you is that you are not only a racist but a biter. You know what I'm talking about, right?
America for me is the rivers of Babylon a land where I have sorrowed and cried; where I have been marked by my colour where I am set up for hatred and derision;
It may be your land of opportunity it is a land of my humiliation.
America for me is a land of unfairness a land where my blood slaved and built;
Yet I am excluded by an invisible system whilst strangers from Russia and Mongolia get invited to the dinner table.
Not that I mind? All I ever need is a lil sugar for me tea, you guys can eat your cake.
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nah. I'd just go with getting rid of Ghaddafi because he's a loon and if you think about it, what he's done to those mercenaries is pretty sick. Paid them $2,000 each for their lives. Don't know exactly how the payment scheme would work. Wouldn't imagine they'd get it all up front, maybe they did - even so. $2,000 ain't much for a life is it? When the buyer owns an oil producing country? Doesn't sound like much of a bargain scheme to me.
Can't imagine he had much of a repatriation program afterwards - probably didn't feel the need. If you want to talk about exploiting Africans take a look at him. He's the dog. He's the roach. IMHO.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: ^ Thank you for the acknowledgements however, we cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Anyone who has followed any of my posts should understand that the reality of melanin completely discredits and demolishes the reactionary white projection, RACE. The world has only one race and that is MAN..and his mutations.
True and right revolutionary teachings! Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self...
What I do know about you is that you are not only a racist but a biter. You know what I'm talking about, right?
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original. [/QB]
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!" Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: He just doesn't like 'pink women' ... now that could mean he is either gay or racist.
Oh damn me and my chemical imbalance
Don't Worry they do...
ironlion loves pink women and M.K, well I don't know about M.K...
Radical Racist Negros who preach Death to Whitey or Pinkies will always have a cryptonite fr white women...LOL
Geri Geri mothafucka
Don't project on me. You know how you love them pink white tangs, and sometimes with a dash of colour, like them Latinos, and the Portugeses, and the Scottish red heads.. hehehe Recall your conversations with Afroholic, or you wanna me go cut and paste?
As for me, I love all women, be they Muurish, Chinese, Japanese, Goths, even Turkics, if they are beautiful, well mannered and respectful.
Woman is the mother of humanity. I am not a bully. I love women, I do not fight them.
Love for a good woman, is a privilege given to man. Cherish it!
So Gerri Gerri pink dog, even though you are a mothafucka, learn to respect women, no matter their race or nation... cause they give rise to the generations.
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated! Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ LOL, one cannot HATE a land, unless of course it was unlivable or uninhabitable. Let's not make the mistake of mixing America, the land, with the invaders who kill the land as well as any person who has hopes of living a free and righteous life. Whites ARE NOT America. They are merely parasites who leech the humanity out of mankind. What's there to like about that, especially since one cannot escape it, even in Africa, or Japan.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
*wishes there was a Moderator for this forum*
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^Right on!
The ignoramuses mix up metaphor and simile! But whaddy expect from albinos in denial? Those are the ones that miss read and misjudge and mess up everything anyways. Pink Albinos in denial.. roaches!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
Good to see you again MK... missed you.
Same here Gold! In spite of your misinterpretation of facts, and difficulty in comprehending; Cause & Effect.
Don't understand why/how you have missed me, since you have my email and number. Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: *wishes there was a Moderator for this forum*
Laura
Go play with your sex toys if this is getting too stressful for you. Jeezeee! Here you are talking about freedom and liberty in Libya, but are calling for censorship on the Forum, on issues that are relevant and topical. Talk about roaches!
Lion!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: *wishes there was a Moderator for this forum*
The forum is moderated, but not to the extent the guilty would prefer. Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: *wishes there was a Moderator for this forum*
The forum is moderated, but not to the extent the guilty would prefer.
Oh, really?! Who is the moderator?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Although I don't believe Ausar really cares very much about the Political forum. Political discussions will always get kind of rough, and some take it very personally.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Can't help but wonder, years from now, how many mass graves will be unearthed.
Thousands? Tens of thousands? A 100,000?
One of the sickest revelations to date was the discovery of an underground prison under Qadaffi's palace compound. What kind of wicked people can sleep in a lavish palace compound with prisoners underground. That is right out of the Medieval era when kings subjected opponents to dungeons.
These prisoners weren't rapists or murderers. They were dissidents and political prisoners.
The image of the unearthed prison is at the bottom of the page.
This is an underground bomb shelter linked up with an escape tunnel. You recall the American bombing of 1986, an assasination attempt that only failed due to bomb shelter....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Geri Geri pink-gwoat,
North America is not United States; ever heard about Mexico? Ever heard of Canada? whatz up Albinos? You need geography lesson too? You cannot read or what?
Now answer me, when are you gettin back to Euro-land, to Noddy land, the land of vicious red heads? When?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self...
What I do know about you is that you are not only a racist but a biter. You know what I'm talking about, right?
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!" [/QB]
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self...
What I do know about you is that you are not only a racist but a biter. You know what I'm talking about, right?
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has. [/QB]
Whatever..., now for your final intellectual demolition, please answer:
Thanks Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Here Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist claims to be from New York(And she gets punked out by Gigantic)
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Batty bwoy, you doan live in NY, or anywhere near Harlem or Queens otherwise you couldda bin dead yesterday afternoon.
Doan mess with Rases, and Moorish Kings ca InI would kill your bloo'wool and not give a shyte about it.
InI kill, cramp and burn batty man like u everytime and everywhere!
You lucky you is all internet hot air but still mek atta fire burn ya rotted pink arse, three times a day!
She also claimed a few pages back to be from America and has "North America" as her Location...
Beware Lyin-Lyon is a Nigerian Scam Artist...
Hide Cha Kids
Hid Cha Wive...
Hide Cha Husbands
Cuase Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist is up in here...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Geri Geri pink-gwoat,
North America is not United States; ever heard about Mexico? Ever heard of Canada? whatz up Albinos? You need geography lesson too? You cannot read or what?
Now answer me, when are you gettin back to Euro-land, to Noddy land, the land of vicious red heads? When?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
The only thing that caught my attention was "SHE" and "HER LOCATION"....Baby Lion is a girl?
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Beware Woman!!!
You are arguing with a Nigerian Scam Artist...
She claims one thing and the next day claims the other...
This Scam artist is notorious for her contradictions....
Have you not noticed yet..???
Beware Woman...
of Lyin-Lyon...The Nigerian Scam artist...
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
It must be painful living with your self...
What I do know about you is that you are not only a racist but a biter. You know what I'm talking about, right?
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has. [/QB]
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Gadhafi's Nurse Says She's Going Home
KIEV, Ukraine—Embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is set to be deserted by another close ally after his Ukrainian nurse said she was heading home.
Galyna Kolotnytska, described in a diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks as a "voluptuous blond" who "travel[s] everywhere" with Col. Gadhafi, called her family in Kiev on Friday to say she intends to return to Ukraine, her daughter told daily Segodnya.
"Mom got in touch yesterday. She said she was now in Tripoli," Tetyana Kolotnytska said. "She spoke in a calm voice, asked us not to worry and said she'd soon be home."
According to the cable from September 2009, contacts in Tripoli told U.S. diplomats that Col. Gadhafi "relies heavily" on Ms. Kolotnytska, then 38, as "she alone 'knows his routine.'"
The cable also reported claims from unnamed sources that the eccentric Libyan leader and the nurse, part of a retinue of four Ukrainians, "have a romantic relationship."
Ms. Kolotnytska's daughter said her mother had been in Libya for nine years, originally employed in a hospital before starting work for Col. Gadhafi.
"Other Ukrainian women also work for him as nurses. Mom is one of them," she said. "For some reason, he doesn't trust Libyan women with this matter."
O_o even his pacifier is deserting him Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Here Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist claims to be from New York(And she gets punked out by Gigantic)
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Batty bwoy, you doan live in NY, or anywhere near Harlem or Queens otherwise you couldda bin dead yesterday afternoon.
Doan mess with Rases, and Moorish Kings ca InI would kill your bloo'wool and not give a shyte about it.
InI kill, cramp and burn batty man like u everytime and everywhere!
You lucky you is all internet hot air but still mek atta fire burn ya rotted pink arse, three times a day!
She also claimed a few pages back to be from America and has "North America" as her Location...
Beware Lyin-Lyon is a Nigerian Scam Artist...
Hide Cha Kids
Hid Cha Wive...
Hide Cha Husbands
Cuase Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist is up in here...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Geri Geri pink-gwoat,
North America is not United States; ever heard about Mexico? Ever heard of Canada? whatz up Albinos? You need geography lesson too? You cannot read or what?
Now answer me, when are you gettin back to Euro-land, to Noddy land, the land of vicious red heads? When?
Geri pink dog
Just point out one sentence in that your long rambling post where IronLion stated that he lived in United States.
We are waiting.... Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has.
Whatever..., now for your final intellectual demolition, please answer:
Is that Black African Abdel Rahman in United Nations security council representing Libya or Black Africa?
Don't turn tail and run....now facts have come to haunt you!
Only cowards run when they are hit with challenges...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Gadhafi's Nurse Says She's Going Home
KIEV, Ukraine—Embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is set to be deserted by another close ally after his Ukrainian nurse said she was heading home.
Galyna Kolotnytska, described in a diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks as a "voluptuous blond" who "travel[s] everywhere" with Col. Gadhafi, called her family in Kiev on Friday to say she intends to return to Ukraine, her daughter told daily Segodnya.
"Mom got in touch yesterday. She said she was now in Tripoli," Tetyana Kolotnytska said. "She spoke in a calm voice, asked us not to worry and said she'd soon be home."
According to the cable from September 2009, contacts in Tripoli told U.S. diplomats that Col. Gadhafi "relies heavily" on Ms. Kolotnytska, then 38, as "she alone 'knows his routine.'"
The cable also reported claims from unnamed sources that the eccentric Libyan leader and the nurse, part of a retinue of four Ukrainians, "have a romantic relationship."
Ms. Kolotnytska's daughter said her mother had been in Libya for nine years, originally employed in a hospital before starting work for Col. Gadhafi.
"Other Ukrainian women also work for him as nurses. Mom is one of them," she said. "For some reason, he doesn't trust Libyan women with this matter."
You are so simplistic, I hurt for you! More lies, moe propaganda, to salvage your disappointment at not being in Tripoli today, celebrating the fall of Ghadafi.
You can remain in your bubble, in Amerikka, telling rumors with one another... hehehe... but we are going about our business here, steadily, the Karima brigade, flushing out the roaches and the rats, the druggies and the pimps, running them out, from the alley ways of Zawiya, to the corners streets of Bengahzi...
History unfolds...
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Here is the response from the West IF by chance any region in the middle-east breaks free from their western controllers.
If this doesn't happen, then you can be reasonably sure the new ruler(s) is/are US/Israel puppet(s).
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: The only thing that caught my attention was "SHE" and "HER LOCATION"....Baby Lion is a girl?
Geri Jeri Moofuka is a gaylord. He likes to fantasize about men being girls, butt rapes, and all that gay crap...
Read his comment below so you know he knows he is dealing with a "him", a man, but he is just gay like that...
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin..
The quote is there for all to read, but then again that was way back when, like a real Scam Artist you need to switch up your story.
Yesterday you live in New York, Today you live in Mexic or Canada(although we know what "North America" implies)
Tommorow you will be from Bangladesh...
You are a Lyin Slithering Snake...
a Nigerian born I-talian Scam artist
A Fraudster and Fake...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Trying...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Here Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist claims to be from New York(And she gets punked out by Gigantic)
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Batty bwoy, you doan live in NY, or anywhere near Harlem or Queens otherwise you couldda bin dead yesterday afternoon.
Doan mess with Rases, and Moorish Kings ca InI would kill your bloo'wool and not give a shyte about it.
InI kill, cramp and burn batty man like u everytime and everywhere!
You lucky you is all internet hot air but still mek atta fire burn ya rotted pink arse, three times a day!
She also claimed a few pages back to be from America and has "North America" as her Location...
Beware Lyin-Lyon is a Nigerian Scam Artist...
Hide Cha Kids
Hid Cha Wive...
Hide Cha Husbands
Cuase Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist is up in here...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^ If you hate America so, why don't you leave?? Were you not originally from Nigeria?? Nigeria is a good developing nation, why not go back??
If I had ties in Africa I would go back.
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
You're location says "North America" and you claimed in a debate with Afronutt you claimed to live in New York..
LMAO, I guess the beatdowns I have given you has messed you Cagot brain cells...
Just call Him Lyin-Lyon...Keep on Tryin.....
In the Morning....
Geri Geri pink-gwoat,
North America is not United States; ever heard about Mexico? Ever heard of Canada? whatz up Albinos? You need geography lesson too? You cannot read or what?
Now answer me, when are you gettin back to Euro-land, to Noddy land, the land of vicious red heads? When?
Geri pink dog
Just point out one sentence in that your long rambling post where IronLion stated that he lived in United States.
We are waiting....
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has.
Whatever..., now for your final intellectual demolition, please answer:
Is that Black African Abdel Rahman in United Nations security council representing Libya or Black Africa?
Don't turn tail and run....now facts have come to haunt you!
Only cowards run when they are hit with challenges... [/QB]
I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
Libya's Ambassador to UN Shalgam Resigns
Three days after saying he was Al Qathafi's friend, and that he can criticise him but not attack him, Libya's ambassador to the UN, Abdel-Rahman Shalgam, denounced the Libyan leader at the UN, telling the Security Council that he "could not believe" Col Al-Qathafi's troops were firing on the protesters.
Shalgham went on to say, that, having seen the Libyan leader call for the protests to be put down by force, he was now backing sanctions.
When he finished speaking, he was embraced by his weeping deputy, Ibrahim Dabbashi, who in turn was hugged by other diplomats.
A few days ago Shalgam said that he had told high officials in the Libyan regime that the regime should stop bloodshed. He also pointed out that if it did not stop he was going to resign. He was told that they were going to invite all the news channels to Libya to see for themselves.
*This is the same link your provided. You don't even take the time to read links you posts.*
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin..
blah..blah..blah..
Yesterday you live in New York, Today you live in Mexic or Canada(although we know what "North America" implies)
Tommorow you will be from Bangladesh...
whine.. whine.. whine..I am on heat...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Here Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist claims to be from New York(And she gets punked out by Gigantic)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IronLion: [qb] Batty bwoy, you doan live in NY, or anywhere near Harlem or Queens otherwise you couldda bin dead yesterday afternoon.
Doan mess with Rases, and Moorish Kings ca InI would kill your bloo'wool and not give a shyte about it.
InI kill, cramp and burn batty man like u everytime and everywhere!
You lucky you is all internet hot air but still mek atta fire burn ya rotted pink arse, three times a day!
Now it is "implied", I thought you quoted me LoL! Now you implying me? Hehehe...
Again I ask, you Jeri pink doggie doggie:
Just point out one sentence in that your long rambling post where IronLion stated that he lived in United States.
And when are you going back to Euroland the land of vicious red-heads? Dont dodge..
We are still waiting.... Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: The only thing that caught my attention was "SHE" and "HER LOCATION"....Baby Lion is a girl?
Lyin-Lyon in real life is a Woman...
Its online persona is a Man
A fake internet Radical, who talks made Sh#t from Her/His P.C
a Scam artist with Transvestite tendencies....
Just call Her/Him Lyin-Lyon....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Is this a justification? You read lies in the newspapers and then began to peddle those lies on the internet.
Fact is Ghadafi did not flee or attempt to flee to Venezuela. You and your CIA fake newssources invented and disseminated that story.
Fact is Ghadafis Daughter is still in Libya. She sis not flee or attempt to flee Libya. You invented that lie with your fake Turkic ass.
Fact is Gadafi is still Dean over Tripoli. Tripoli is still standing and has not fallen to CIA rats and roaches. You pulled that lie out of your pink ass.
Fact is there are millions of Black Libyans, working in the army, and the militias and the police, because the word Libya historically means Land of the Blacks!
Fact is..., I could go on and on with a list of your endless lies, propaganda, disinformation, and subliminal racist ejaculations. But I do not need to. People here get the idea...
You know your miserable, weak-ass, pink-ass whoring self, more than I do.
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has.
Whatever..., now for your final intellectual demolition, please answer:
Is that Black African Abdel Rahman in United Nations security council representing Libya or Black Africa?
Don't turn tail and run....now facts have come to haunt you!
Only cowards run when they are hit with challenges...
I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
Do you then admit that you lied again? Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Lyin-Lyin
Keep on Trying...
The quote is there for all to see...
Yesterday You from New York USA, Writing a Poem about how Opressed you are in America(Im Sure Monkey Remembers your poem when she stated you live in America)
You are a scam artists, nothing you say has merit in truth...
You're an internet radical
Yesterday you from New York, USA
Today you from Mexico or Canada
Tommorow you will be Bangladeshi....
You have been busted in your Scam...
I think we will Just Call You Lyin-Lyon....
in the Morning baby..
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin..
blah..blah..blah..
Yesterday you live in New York, Today you live in Mexic or Canada(although we know what "North America" implies)
Tommorow you will be from Bangladesh...
whine.. whine.. whine..I am on heat...
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Here Lyin-Lyon the Nigerian Scam artist claims to be from New York(And she gets punked out by Gigantic)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IronLion: [qb] Batty bwoy, you doan live in NY, or anywhere near Harlem or Queens otherwise you couldda bin dead yesterday afternoon.
Doan mess with Rases, and Moorish Kings ca InI would kill your bloo'wool and not give a shyte about it.
InI kill, cramp and burn batty man like u everytime and everywhere!
You lucky you is all internet hot air but still mek atta fire burn ya rotted pink arse, three times a day!
Now it is "implied", I thought you quoted me LoL! Now you implying me? Hehehe...
Again I ask, you Jeri pink doggie doggie:
Just point out one sentence in that your long rambling post where IronLion stated that he lived in United States.
And when are you going back to Euroland the land of vicious red-heads? Dont dodge..
We are still waiting....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: The only thing that caught my attention was "SHE" and "HER LOCATION"....Baby Lion is a girl?
Lyin-Lyon in real life is a Woman...
Its online persona is a Man
oooooo, whine whine...whine..
I am hurrrrrrttttt!!!!....
LoL!!! What did I say this morning to make you come sooo unhinged?
The comments about your being a red haired gaylord from Scoottish side? Or the fact that you are a pink doggie doogie bitch?
LoL!
Sorry Geri, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings..
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
The Nigerian Born I-talian Scam Artist...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
blah...blah..blah...
All the bold phrases are common phrases, and while okay to use them occasionally in writing, using not 1 but SIX common phrases in a poem. How original.
Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
Biter. Not bitter, moron.
BTW. Have you lived in any Arab Gulf states? It would explain a lot. If you did live there and now living in North America, understand you are physically free, try to free your mind now. A bit of education will help. Don't let your delusions consume your reasoning.
But most importantly, if you did live in Kuwait or Saudia [Correct me if I'm wrong], understand it wasn't me that contributed to your current mental disposition. You know such as your insistence that black African mercenary was Libyan, despite the fact that the people on video repeatedly stating he wasn't. I'm not a Saudi bro, didn't contribute to your demons.
As for answering your questions. They were answered in previous posts, unfortunately the answers probably went over your head, like this Libya discussion has.
Whatever..., now for your final intellectual demolition, please answer:
Is that Black African Abdel Rahman in United Nations security council representing Libya or Black Africa?
Don't turn tail and run....now facts have come to haunt you!
Only cowards run when they are hit with challenges...
I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
blah blah blah...
So you admit that you lied. Or that you are too stooopid to understand nuanced statements?
Not one line in my comment you can point out???
Illiteracy is a crime! Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
*This is the same link your provided. You don't even take the time to read links you posts.* [/qb]So there are Libyan Black Africans like Abdel Rahman Shalgam?
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
Do you then admit that you lied again?
Are there prominent black Libyans in the army, in the government, and in the judiciary?
Is Toubou a black African tribe of Libie?
How then did your Turkic brothers confirm the identity of the Black man's body that they descerated? Was that man from Sahab?
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
The Nigerian Born I-talian Scam Artist...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
You obviously know more about this member than I do as he/she post more in other forums. I simply wanted to give her/him a chance at serious discussion. But the more he/she posts the more it appears that he/she believes all the answers are in his/her mind even if delusional. Seriously, how can a discussion be balanced when someone is cracked liked that.
Definitely took away from this Libyan Revolution discussion. I pointed it out he/she lived in Saudi Arabia because I knew that was probably a core reason for her twisted reasoning.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
SultanAlQassemi Saif Al Islam: Benghazi must be administratively independent, like in Australia and America.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Lyin-Lyon
Keep on Tryin...
I call those who scam a Scam Artist
and those who Lie a Lie a Liar...
"You Fooled all the People with Magic, Yeah you waited on Satan's call"...
We don't want scam artist Nigerians in America esp. those who complain...
When are you going back to Nigeria??
After your Lesbian/Transvestite Scottish Pink friend dumps you...or after...
HAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Just call her Lyin-Lyon...
In the Morning BAABY!!
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
blah blah blah...
So you admit that you lied. Or that you are too stooopid to understand nuanced statements?
Not one line in my comment you can point out???
Illiteracy is a crime!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
The Nigerian Born I-talian Scam Artist...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
You obviously know more about this member than I do as he/she post more in other forums. I simply wanted to give her/him a chance at serious discussion. But the more he/she posts the more it appears that he/she believes all the answers are in his/her mind even if delusional. Seriously, how can a discussion be balanced when someone is cracked liked that.
Definitely took away from this Libyan Revolution discussion. I pointed it out he/she lived in Saudi Arabia because I knew that was probably a core reason for her twisted reasoning.
The discussion is whether there are black African Libyans, or whether Libyans are just Turkics and Italics?
Because you claimed Black Africans r heartless mecenary killers in Libya.
Just answer the question I asked you.
Are there prominent black Libyans in the army, airforce, navy, executive, and the judiciary? Yes or no?
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: blah..blah..blah...
Yes, so says the GayLord of Egypt Search!
Go look for your male lovers to give you attention...and fuch around with you .. Afroholic, and Cassarides, you know who... Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Exile, you are dealing with an Afrocentrist of the worse kind....
You have to know how debate "IT", to debate "IT" in the normal scholarly way is futile, "IT" will resort to under the belt tactics, blatant contradictions, and lies.
This proves that Radica Afrocentrism/Black Eccentrism is devoid of any scholarly reason, and far away of the Laws of Logic, a Strawman and Red Herring is a common tactic.
You are waisting your time...
The Best thing to do is poke fun at IT, watch IT blabber on its crazed theories...
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
The Nigerian Born I-talian Scam Artist...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
You obviously know more about this member than I do as he/she post more in other forums. I simply wanted to give her/him a chance at serious discussion. But the more he/she posts the more it appears that he/she believes all the answers are in his/her mind even if delusional. Seriously, how can a discussion be balanced when someone is cracked liked that.
Definitely took away from this Libyan Revolution discussion. I pointed it out he/she lived in Saudi Arabia because I knew that was probably a core reason for her twisted reasoning.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Exiile
Put your money where you mouth is. When you make a claim prove it...
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Exile, you are dealing with an Afrocentrist of the worse kind....
You have to know how debate "IT", to debate "IT" in the normal scholarly way is futile, "IT" will resort to under the belt tactics, blatant contradictions, and lies.
This proves that Radica Afrocentrism/Black Eccentrism is devoid of any scholarly reason, and far away of the Laws of Logic, a Strawman and Red Herring is a common tactic.
You are waisting your time...
The Best thing to do is poke fun at IT, watch IT blabber on its crazed theories...
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: beware Exile....
Beware of the Rabid Mad Hatter...
The Nigerian Born I-talian Scam Artist...
Just call Her Lyin-Lyon
You obviously know more about this member than I do as he/she post more in other forums. I simply wanted to give her/him a chance at serious discussion. But the more he/she posts the more it appears that he/she believes all the answers are in his/her mind even if delusional. Seriously, how can a discussion be balanced when someone is cracked liked that.
Definitely took away from this Libyan Revolution discussion. I pointed it out he/she lived in Saudi Arabia because I knew that was probably a core reason for her twisted reasoning.
Geri Jeri pink Gaylord moofucka, Are you trying to pick up a new male lover? Like you kmnow who... Psst..Exiile, Geri Geri says he likes you... lol!!! Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
*This is the same link your provided. You don't even take the time to read links you posts.* So there are Libyan Black Africans like Abdel Rahman Shalgam?
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
Do you then admit that you lied again?
Are there prominent black Libyans in the army, in the government, and in the judiciary?
Is Toubou a black African tribe of Libie?
How then did your Turkic brothers confirm the identity of the Black man's body that they descerated? Was that man from Sahab?
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again? [/QB]
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
You thought. You thought wrong. Read sentence below.
Do you then admit that you lied again?
In your mind, I obviously did. Thing is, it's in your delusional mind. Fact is I also said there were Russian and Serbian mercenaries. O_o
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again?
So this is your problem. Dude because of this sensitivity, I didn't even mention or post recent videos of black African mercenaries being dragged in the streets.
Trying to be sensitive. Didn't post pictures of graffiti, sayings and other animosities that are directed at Qadaffi (images that portary him with sub-Saharan Africans) and black-Africans.
I didn't make this up. This is what is unfolding in the streets of Libya. This is directly happening because of Qadaffi's policy of hiring sub-Saharan mercenaries. If Arab/White folk were paid mercenaries killing people in Uganda, how would the Ugandan people react.
It's despicable that a leader, any leader is paying money and importing mercenaries to kill his own people. Comments by Chad president also didn't help. The same thing about Mugabe sending "commandos to protect the col", or even the Gambian president advising sub-Saharan Africans against taking Qadaffi money to kill people.
This policy by Qadaffi is despicable, it has caused a major humantarian crisis for Sub-Sahran Africans living in Libya, thankfully the Libyans are not going after the Sub-Saharan women and families. It's a ugly situation.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
*This is the same link your provided. You don't even take the time to read links you posts.* So there are Libyan Black Africans like Abdel Rahman Shalgam?
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
Do you then admit that you lied again?
Are there prominent black Libyans in the army, in the government, and in the judiciary?
Is Toubou a black African tribe of Libie?
How then did your Turkic brothers confirm the identity of the Black man's body that they descerated? Was that man from Sahab?
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again? [/QB]
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
You thought. You thought wrong. Read sentence below.
Do you then admit that you lied again?
In your mind, I obviously did. Thing is, it's in your delusional mind. Fact is I also said there were Russian and Serbian mercenaries. O_o
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again?
So this is your problem. Dude because of this sensitivity, I didn't even mention or post recent videos of black African mercenaries being dragged in the streets.
Trying to be sensitive. Didn't post pictures of graffiti, sayings and other animosities that are directed at Qadaffi (images that portary him with sub-Saharan Africans) and black-Africans.
I didn't make this up. This is what is unfolding in the streets of Libya. This is directly happening because of Qadaffi's policy of hiring sub-Saharan mercenaries. If Arab/White folk were paid mercenaries killing people in Uganda, how would the Ugandan people react.
It's despicable that a leader, any leader is paying money and importing mercenaries to kill his own people. Comments by Chad president also didn't help. The same thing about Mugabe sending "commandos to protect the col", or even the Gambian president advising sub-Saharan Africans against taking Qadaffi money to kill people.
This policy by Qadaffi is despicable, it has caused a major humantarian crisis for Sub-Sahran Africans living in Libya, thankfully the Libyans are not going after the Sub-Saharan women and families. It's a ugly situation. [/QB]
That is why I say your revolution is fake and tainted with blood, racism, and genocide lust.
Those Black Africans are the original, aboriginal Libyans.
We own Libya, the Land of the Blacks. All pink skin Libyans are the immigrants, the Italiacs, the Turkics, the Gothics and the Vandals.
They now want to expel the Black Libyans with their fake revolution.
That effort is doomed to fail.
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: [QB] Exile, you are dealing with an Afrocentrist of the worse kind....
blah blah blah
You are waisting your time...
blah..blah...blah......
The gaylord of ES has spoken again.
Notice Exiile is not responding... He is Mooooslims.
They can not stand gays... especially gay bitches who cannot spell properly...
Hey, how is your Greek Lover-boy Casrides? Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'll answer this question and last despite the fact that failed answering my question, to which you replied “whatever.” Enough of you absurdity and antics. You wasted enough of my time, and others here.
Abdel Rahman Shalgam WAS the Ambassador of Libya to the UN. If you would have actually read the article you posted you would know that he denounced (open criticized) Qadaffi and the resigned as Ambassador (quit).
*This is the same link your provided. You don't even take the time to read links you posts.* So there are Libyan Black Africans like Abdel Rahman Shalgam?
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
Do you then admit that you lied again?
Are there prominent black Libyans in the army, in the government, and in the judiciary?
Is Toubou a black African tribe of Libie?
How then did your Turkic brothers confirm the identity of the Black man's body that they descerated? Was that man from Sahab?
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again?
I thought you said all black Africans in Libya were mecenaries?
You thought. You thought wrong. Read sentence below.
Do you then admit that you lied again?
In your mind, I obviously did. Thing is, it's in your delusional mind. Fact is I also said there were Russian and Serbian mercenaries. O_o
Why then are you picking on Black Africans? What was that your fake reason again?
So this is your problem. Dude because of this sensitivity, I didn't even mention or post recent videos of black African mercenaries being dragged in the streets.
Trying to be sensitive. Didn't post pictures of graffiti, sayings and other animosities that are directed at Qadaffi (images that portary him with sub-Saharan Africans) and black-Africans.
I didn't make this up. This is what is unfolding in the streets of Libya. This is directly happening because of Qadaffi's policy of hiring sub-Saharan mercenaries. If Arab/White folk were paid mercenaries killing people in Uganda, how would the Ugandan people react.
It's despicable that a leader, any leader is paying money and importing mercenaries to kill his own people. Comments by Chad president also didn't help. The same thing about Mugabe sending "commandos to protect the col", or even the Gambian president advising sub-Saharan Africans against taking Qadaffi money to kill people.
This policy by Qadaffi is despicable, it has caused a major humantarian crisis for Sub-Sahran Africans living in Libya, thankfully the Libyans are not going after the Sub-Saharan women and families. It's a ugly situation. [/QB]
That is why I say your revolution is fake and tainted with blood, racism, and genocide lust.
Those Black Africans are the original, aboriginal Libyans.
We own Libya, the Land of the Blacks. All pink skin Libyans are the immigrants, the Italiacs, the Turkics, the Gothics and the Vandals.
They now want to expel the Black Libyans with their fake revolution.
That effort is doomed to fail.
Lion! [/QB]
Take a look at this image, and article. You see the black Libyan in the front he is part of the revolution with his Libyan revolution brothers, against Qadaffi. You still don't get it. Qadaffi from his sons' Brigades to the mercenaries he hires are the enemy of the people. The black Libyans that are apprehended are ones found in compromising situations (e.g, arriving from Sabha (mercenary arrival airport), found with armed with Qadaffi forces, etc).
It is your opinion that the revolution is doomed. When all said and done there will be reconsiliation between all Libyans whether they sided with Qadaffi or Revolutionaries. No need to even think about that. The mercenaries for foreign countries, I really don't know how they will be tried, but probably as enemy combatants, not sure as I don't know legal statues concerning such forces.
^Why would Ghadafi, hire mecenaries when he already has about 2 million security personel working for him to control 5 million Libyans?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Why would Ghadafi, hire mecenaries when he already has about 2 million security personel working for him to control 5 million Libyans?
Dude they are deserting him left and right. The Navy annouced yesterday that they too are joining the Feb 17 Youth Revolution.
He is very distrustful of his forces now, with the exception of the ones led by his sons. The Khamis Brigade (32nd Brigade) is about the strongest unit he has left. Khamis is his younger son, ruthless SOB.
He has the paramilitary forces, mercenaries (don't know how many there are only estimates) and the Airforce. This is still a formidable force, not to regain the country, but formidable enough to defend Qaddaffi and parts of Tripoli. Don't know for how long.
The Airforce, well that could be devastating because it is offensive, he still controls napalm, and more worrisome chemical weapons (mustard gas about 9.5 tons according to officials).
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
I know he has paramilitary forces but these are Libyans, many of them from his tribe Qadhafawa, ready to fight to death for him. The there is the Kamis force. Then there is the Hannibal force. Then you have not counted the stock of chemical and biological weapons seating there waiting for such a day like this.
So, why would he need "African" mecenaries when he has all those forces?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: I know he has paramilitary forces but these are Libyans, many of them from his tribe Qadhafawa, ready to fight to death for him. The there is the Kamis force. Then there is the Hannibal force. Then you have not counted the stock of chemical and biological weapons seating there waiting for such a day like this.
So, why would he need "African" mecenaries when he has all those forces?
First the facts. Libya is a nation of only 5-6 million people. That would mean all males who are in military age would amount to 1.5 million. Out of this number how many do think are actually in the military? 5%, 7%, 10% At most there are no more than 150,000. It is also known that many are just conscripts and many poorly trained. Count the mass defections and it is easily understandable why Qadaffi would need more men. Especially highly trained men, and African Mercenaries are just that, especially ones that have fought in other wars in Africa.
Point being, Libya is weak, was weak, and that is why we are at this point. If Qadaffi forces were strong he could have quashed the rebellion for good. If the revolutionaries were strong they would have taken Tripoli by now.
Qadaffi has denied mercenaries, his FM denied them repeatedly, reports by people are however suggesting otherwise. When asked “How do you know they are not Libyans”, the speak a “different language”. Then there are those they show with foreign ID cards and passports.
This is undoubtedly a time of war. But where are all these reports coming from? They can't all be baseless. And ultimately the truth will be fully known when the fighting stops. I understand your doubts. I understand that fully, and I guess you have to believe in something. But every single day, and there are videos too in which people are saying they are being killed by foreign black mercenaries.
The extent of the truth will be known. A good example is a report of a hundred captured in one city, when it turned out it was only 30. Some admitted being mercenaries, others said they were Libyans from the south, some said they were workers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. One day we will find out the extent of truth and also extent of exaggerations.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
It seems there is some truth to Qadafi and his drugged Al-Qaida claims.
Al-Qaida Calls For Revolt Against Arab Rulers
CAIRO — Al-Qaida's offshoot in Yemen urged Muslims to revolt against Arab rulers and establish governments based on Islamic law, according to an audio tape posted Saturday on militant websites.
The appeal came at a time of growing political unrest in the Arab world. Popular uprisings have deposed the leaders of Tunisia and Egypt, and anti-government protests are gaining momentum in Libya, Yemen and Bahrain.
The speaker on the audio tape is identified as Ibrahim al-Rubeish, a former detainee at the U.S.-run Guantanamo Bay lockup. The tape was produced by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, a Yemen-based offshoot of the terror network, according to the SITE Intel group, a U.S.-based group that monitors extremist websites.
In the 10-minute recording, Al-Rubeish criticized Saudi Arabia for providing a haven for deposed Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali.
He also said toppling longtime rulers is not enough and that new governments must be established based on Islamic religious law, or Shariah.
"One tyrant goes, only to be replaced another who may fix for the people some of their worldly issues by offering job opportunities and increasing their income, but the greater problem remains," al-Rubeish said, according to a translation provided by SITE.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: I know he has paramilitary forces but these are Libyans, many of them from his tribe Qadhafawa, ready to fight to death for him. The there is the Kamis force. Then there is the Hannibal force. Then you have not counted the stock of chemical and biological weapons seating there waiting for such a day like this.
So, why would he need "African" mecenaries when he has all those forces?
First the facts. Libya is a nation of only 5-6 million people. That would mean all males who are in military age would amount to 1.5 million. Out of this number how many do think are actually in the military? 5%, 7%, 10% At most there are no more than 150,000. It is also known that many are just conscripts and many poorly trained. Count the mass defections and it is easily understandable why Qadaffi would need more men. Especially highly trained men, and African Mercenaries are just that, especially ones that have fought in other wars in Africa.
Point being, Libya is weak, was weak, and that is why we are at this point. If Qadaffi forces were strong he could have quashed the rebellion for good. If the revolutionaries were strong they would have taken Tripoli by now.
Qadaffi has denied mercenaries, his FM denied them repeatedly, reports by people are however suggesting otherwise. When asked “How do you know they are not Libyans”, the speak a “different language”. Then there are those they show with foreign ID cards and passports.
This is undoubtedly a time of war. But where are all these reports coming from? They can't all be baseless. And ultimately the truth will be fully known when the fighting stops. I understand your doubts. I understand that fully, and I guess you have to believe in something. But every single day, and there are videos too in which people are saying they are being killed by foreign black mercenaries.
The extent of the truth will be known. A good example is a report of a hundred captured in one city, when it turned out it was only 30. Some admitted being mercenaries, others said they were Libyans from the south, some said they were workers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. One day we will find out the extent of truth and also extent of exaggerations.
Like you say, it is a time of war times of trouble...
I personally perfer order and stability to the endless rounds of revolutions that in the end do noone any good.
But, then these are the signs of our times..
Only time will tell.
Salaam Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
The British Intelligence Service are experts in dis-information and psychological warfare. Hear their latest rumors... Mugabe is protecting Ghadafi... lol!!! Where is this gonna end ..lol:
Mugabe's Troops Protecting Ghadafi
Robert Mugabe has sent crack troops from his presidential guard to fight for Colonel Gaddafi – and has even offered him exile in Zimbabwe.
Gaddafi, 68, has reportedly loaded an aircraft with gold bullion and cash ahead of a flight south to safety in Zimbabwe.
He and Mugabe, (pictured), 87 this week, are long-time friends and allies.
At one point, they even discussed creating one giant state of Africa, with Gaddafi president for life and Mugabe his loyal prime minister.
You got a point, I don't ususally believe the mainstream media who seems to be trying too hard to make Quaddifi look bad
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: It seems there is some truth to Qadafi and his drugged Al-Qaida claims.
Al-Qaida Calls For Revolt Against Arab Rulers
CAIRO — Al-Qaida's offshoot in Yemen urged Muslims to revolt against Arab rulers and establish governments based on Islamic law, according to an audio tape posted Saturday on militant websites.
The appeal came at a time of growing political unrest in the Arab world. Popular uprisings have deposed the leaders of Tunisia and Egypt, and anti-government protests are gaining momentum in Libya, Yemen and Bahrain.
The speaker on the audio tape is identified as Ibrahim al-Rubeish, a former detainee at the U.S.-run Guantanamo Bay lockup. The tape was produced by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, a Yemen-based offshoot of the terror network, according to the SITE Intel group, a U.S.-based group that monitors extremist websites.
In the 10-minute recording, Al-Rubeish criticized Saudi Arabia for providing a haven for deposed Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali.
He also said toppling longtime rulers is not enough and that new governments must be established based on Islamic religious law, or Shariah.
"One tyrant goes, only to be replaced another who may fix for the people some of their worldly issues by offering job opportunities and increasing their income, but the greater problem remains," al-Rubeish said, according to a translation provided by SITE.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: [QB] baa..baa..baa.., I don't ususally believe the mainstream media who seems to be trying too hard to make Quaddifi baa..baa..baa..
What is he jabbering??
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ Why isn't the mainstream Media showing the atrocities of the Rebels?? Why are they not showing the clips of black Lybians being beat, why is it a one sided story where Quaddafi is only doint wrong. Both sides are killing, not just Quadaffi.
BTW, My comment was response to M.K source he posted not to your crazed homosexual ass..
shoo fly.
on the real Im thinking the Elites and Media is trying to push a War...
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Why is the Media trying to press Obama to "take action" against Lybia???
Let them handle their own affairs??
BTW, Why did Clinton suddenly go to Haiti??
Can you tell us about that Lyin-Lyon??
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Why isn't the mainstream Media showing the atrocities of the Rebels?? Why are they not showing the clips of black Lybians being beat, why is it a one sided story where Quaddafi is only doint wrong. Both sides are killing, not just Quadaffi.
BTW, My comment was response to M.K source he posted not to your crazed homosexual ass..
shoo fly.
on the real Im thinking the Elites and Media is trying to push a War...
One can never tell what is really occurring behind what's being promoted.
With the CIA/Mossad, they may have created another Al-Quida specifically for this purpose as they did with the original. One thing is certain. The sudden popularity of Facebook is no accident. There may be at least 200 large social network sites on-line. Half of these are much better than Facebook, but not owned by Jews and perhaps, not as conducive to the data mining and cross referencing performed across other Jewish controlled data collection sites. That Google and Facebook are being used to coordinate these protests is no coincidence, and perhaps have been one of the main intended uses of Facebook all along...along with normal data collection and spying on it's users. This is why for the last 5 years my Facebook profile is fictitious, and I share no real data with them freaks to correlate.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: I know he has paramilitary forces but these are Libyans, many of them from his tribe Qadhafawa, ready to fight to death for him. The there is the Kamis force. Then there is the Hannibal force. Then you have not counted the stock of chemical and biological weapons seating there waiting for such a day like this.
So, why would he need "African" mecenaries when he has all those forces?
First the facts. Libya is a nation of only 5-6 million people. That would mean all males who are in military age would amount to 1.5 million. Out of this number how many do think are actually in the military? 5%, 7%, 10% At most there are no more than 150,000. It is also known that many are just conscripts and many poorly trained. Count the mass defections and it is easily understandable why Qadaffi would need more men. Especially highly trained men, and African Mercenaries are just that, especially ones that have fought in other wars in Africa.
Point being, Libya is weak, was weak, and that is why we are at this point. If Qadaffi forces were strong he could have quashed the rebellion for good. If the revolutionaries were strong they would have taken Tripoli by now.
Qadaffi has denied mercenaries, his FM denied them repeatedly, reports by people are however suggesting otherwise. When asked “How do you know they are not Libyans”, the speak a “different language”. Then there are those they show with foreign ID cards and passports.
This is undoubtedly a time of war. But where are all these reports coming from? They can't all be baseless. And ultimately the truth will be fully known when the fighting stops. I understand your doubts. I understand that fully, and I guess you have to believe in something. But every single day, and there are videos too in which people are saying they are being killed by foreign black mercenaries.
The extent of the truth will be known. A good example is a report of a hundred captured in one city, when it turned out it was only 30. Some admitted being mercenaries, others said they were Libyans from the south, some said they were workers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. One day we will find out the extent of truth and also extent of exaggerations.
Like you say, it is a time of war times of trouble...
I personally perfer order and stability to the endless rounds of revolutions that in the end do noone any good.
But, then these are the signs of our times..
Only time will tell.
Salaam
There is nothing better than peace and stability. I agree wholeheartedly but it's really useless when there is constant fear. That is something that I noticed in most middle east countries as well as several African countries I traveled to. These tyrants persecuted and stole from their people. So it is with great joy that I see them get a taste of their own medicine. And we don't know what will happen tomorrow, we can only offer our opinion and speculate, but as of today the status quo seems to have failed.
Thanks for the salaam, and salaam to you as well. Confrontation is understandable considering the influx of all kinds of information, most of which is very disturbing. Hopefully many of the disturbing reports are exaggerated, and hopefully the end is near. So again salaam and while I am anti-Qadaffi and you are pro-Qadaffi, I think we can be more civil than what is transpiring on the ground. Understanding your grievances as well as other members in this forum, I began to read more black African perspective news sources, and as I mentioned earlier some reports are very disturbing.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Why isn't the mainstream Media showing the atrocities of the Rebels?? Why are they not showing the clips of black Lybians being beat, why is it a one sided story where Quaddafi is only doint wrong. Both sides are killing, not just Quadaffi.
I've noticed in this revolution, and I don't just mean Libya, is that it appears it is personal with the press.
Perhaps this is the result of the many beatings they received by the Egyptian regime. Many are however as enthusiastic as the pro-democracy demonstrators when it comes to regimes falling. There is emotion there that is not usually characteristic of journalist.
There appears to be a feeling that they want to see this go all the way (beyond Libya), reporters are tweeting Libya now, where should I fly to next? That "revolution" and not just the Libyan revolution appears to be their focus. They were focusing on Egypt few weeks ago, now on Libya with an eye on other countries.
Regarding the victimization of sub-Saharan Africans (non mercenaries), and with all frankness, it does not appear to be at the top of their priorities. Could they be percieving their deaths as "limited", I really don't know. What I know, or what it appears to me is that their priorities are:
1. Qadaffi
2. Revolutionaries
3. Western Response including repatriating Western Citizens
4. Humanitarian issues including the plight of sub-Saharan Africans
This is my opinion, or at least how the focus of the press seems. Recently however I have noticed an increase of articles in African News as well as Western Networks on Africa (e.g BBC Africa).
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Revealed: Blair's secret calls to Gaddafi
BFF. I was nauseated at the degree of friendly relationships that the Qadaffi's family had with affluent Brits. Especially Saif who appeared to know everybody that was somebody in British society, including royals, lords, politicians and celebrities. And not just talk, but serious partying and spending the night over.
I wonder how he appears to them now, but I can only imagine that he has revealed the savage that he is. His professor from LSE basically said this “my friendship and relationship with Saif was contingent upon him making progressive reforms in Libya”, so he says now, but not a word about that when Saif gave LSE 2 million dollars.
My point is that Tony Blair and UK paved the way for Qadaffi's re acceptance into the western community.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Personally, I feel it's the outrage of everyone, that ppl who demonstrate peacefully, who want their voices to be heard in a peaceful way, are fired upon, are killed.
At this point, how else can they defend themselves from this kind of brutally? Should they all just shut up and go home? At what point do they have the right to stand up and defend themselves from this kind of uncalled for brutality? (not to mention the ongoing brutality that has been going on in that country for years!)
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: His professor from LSE basically said this “my friendship and relationship with Saif was contingent upon him making progressive reforms in Libya”, so he says now, but not a word about that when Saif gave LSE 2 million dollars.
Well they're giving it back, so all's well that ends well.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Personally, I feel it's the outrage of everyone, that ppl who demonstrate peacefully, who want their voices to be heard in a peaceful way, are fired upon, are killed.
At this point, how else can they defend themselves from this kind of brutally? Should they all just shut up and go home? At what point do they have the right to stand up and defend themselves from this kind of uncalled for brutality? (not to mention the ongoing brutality that has been going on in that country for years!)
Their voices are more than loud and clear. A temporary government is in place now in Eastern Libya, one that is looking beyond Qadaffi. Yesterday AJA played a long footage of senior Libyan officers who one after another proclaimed their allegiance to the February 17 Youth Revolution.
Just a few days ago we were wondering, who will step in when Qadaffi falls, what is the plan. This has been answered and there are plans for free elections, and while this is pre-mature, it is good to know that qualified Libyans are stepping up.
They are united irrespective of tribal allegiance. Most of the tribes including the largest one (Warfulla) have pledged allegiance to the “temporary government.” Diplomats too are also pledging allegiance to the temporary government.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: His professor from LSE basically said this “my friendship and relationship with Saif was contingent upon him making progressive reforms in Libya”, so he says now, but not a word about that when Saif gave LSE 2 million dollars.
Well they're giving it back, so all's well that ends well.
As if they had a choice. The hell Monkey, it's an institution of higher learning, they should have known better than to take a tyrant's cash.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
"How many people have seen these pictures from the G8 of President Obama and Libyan dictator Leader Gaddafi pressing flesh and hugging?"
People in glass houses...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: "How many people have seen these pictures from the G8 of President Obama and Libyan dictator Leader Gaddafi pressing flesh and hugging?"
A few pictures is one thing. Acceptance many personalities in society is another thing altogether. When Qadaffi went to NY (UN), he wanted to pitch a tent in an area in Westchester Country, Suburb of NYC. The residents of the area said “we don't want him here”, and he wasn't allowed to pitch a tent.
I mean come on, the dude blew up a plane over Scotland.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Exiiled, with all due respect, I disagree. I remember the Lockerbie bombing, we all remember the Lockerbie bombing. To say he is accepted in society is just BS. It's a well known fact we have one dodgy royal here who will meet with anyone for a fixed amount of money - he's an embarrassment to us all. Go look it up - he's called Prince Andrew. I'm fairly sure he'll be the one he met with.
So you let him in NY? So we let him in the UK. Usher, Mariah Carey and Beyonce did a little dance for his son in New York, how's that for serious partying. And to finish off about him not being allowed to put up his tent in NYC, was it not the case that Donald Trump invited him to his place so he could do it there?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: To say he is accepted in society is just BS.
^ What you thought I said
Here is what I actually wrote:
***Acceptance [b[many personalities in society[/b] is another thing altogether.***
Personalities = politicans, affluent people, etc
I mean come on, if you want to take out the whip, do when I'm being mischievous. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well alrighty then. Looking back through the posts, I seem to have misread one completely because it sure doesn't read the same this time around. I shall amend my responses and say no more about it
Apologies for the confusion. And for being a little hotheaded.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Well alrighty then. Looking back through the posts, I seem to have misread one completely because it sure doesn't read the same this time around. I shall amend my responses and say no more about it
Apologies for the confusion. And for being a little hotheaded.
No problem Monkey, and apology accepted. I think in these very fluid threads we can all be hotheads or at least taking turns. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You only need to mention Blair and I feel myself falling into a wobbler. I never voted for him, don't know anyone who did, yet he got to embarrass us for 10 years. Now he's not even in office and he's still at it.
And as for Gordon Brown and Cameron... Meh.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
CARACAS, Venezuela – Venezuela’s top diplomat on Thursday echoed Fidel Castro’s accusation that Washington and its allies are fomenting unrest in Libya to justify an invasion to seize North African nation’s oil reserves.
Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro claimed the United States and other powerful countries are trying to create a movement inside Libya aimed at toppling Moammar Gadhafi.
Maduro did not condemn or defend the violent crackdown on Libyans participating in the popular uprising against Gadhafi’s long rule.
He called for a peaceful solution to the upheaval in Libya and questioned the veracity of media reports on the bloody uprising, which has crept closer to Gadhafi’s stronghold in Tripoli.
“They are creating conditions to justify an invasion of Libya,” Maduro said.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Why isn't the mainstream Media showing the atrocities of the Rebels?? Why are they not showing the clips of black Lybians being beat, why is it a one sided story where Quaddafi is only doint wrong. Both sides are killing, not just Quadaffi.
I've noticed in this revolution, and I don't just mean Libya, is that it appears it is personal with the press.
Perhaps this is the result of the many beatings they received by the Egyptian regime. Many are however as enthusiastic as the pro-democracy demonstrators when it comes to regimes falling. There is emotion there that is not usually characteristic of journalist.
There appears to be a feeling that they want to see this go all the way (beyond Libya), reporters are tweeting Libya now, where should I fly to next? That "revolution" and not just the Libyan revolution appears to be their focus. They were focusing on Egypt few weeks ago, now on Libya with an eye on other countries.
Regarding the victimization of sub-Saharan Africans (non mercenaries), and with all frankness, it does not appear to be at the top of their priorities. Could they be percieving their deaths as "limited", I really don't know. What I know, or what it appears to me is that their priorities are:
1. Qadaffi
2. Revolutionaries
3. Western Response including repatriating Western Citizens
4. Humanitarian issues including the plight of sub-Saharan Africans
This is my opinion, or at least how the focus of the press seems. Recently however I have noticed an increase of articles in African News as well as Western Networks on Africa (e.g BBC Africa).
Dude its deeper, Im talking about so called Liberal stations and Liberal reporters calling for Obama to "Take action" and invade Lybia?? What for?? Can not the Lybians handle their own problems. They feed us one liner about how the Arabs are upset that Obama did not intervine early in Egypt. It pisses me off, THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM, but the Media is trying relentlessly to get American millitary involved in this.
Also why are the people of Palestine not "Protesting" LOL, You mean people in Iran will protest but not in Palestine?? Dude this is nothing but Order out of Chaos...
Why should we care aboutwhat these arabs are doing, We are in two wars already and just cut Taxes. The States are on the verge of bankrupt, Pensions are in Jeopardy, Job Continue to be lost, We need to handle our own problems instead of worring about a bunch of crazed Arabs supposedly getting mad at the dictators they supported for 30 and 40 years.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Libya will be the next Iraq. Enjoy!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Why should we care aboutwhat these arabs are doing, ...whine..whine..whine.. I am heat... whine...
Gaylord whatz up with all the whinning?
Did your boyfriend beat you up last night? Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Libya will be the next Iraq. Enjoy!
Exactly, or the Next Iran.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The Zionists, through Obama and the UN, will be trying their best not to let that happen. Lets see how it ends up.
quote:CARACAS, Venezuela – Venezuela’s top diplomat on Thursday echoed Fidel Castro’s accusation that Washington and its allies are fomenting unrest in Libya to justify an invasion to seize North African nation’s oil reserves.
No way! That stuff only happens in the ancien regime of GW Bush! America is a different country now! Obama is in charge! Change we can believe in!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Libya will be the next Iraq. Enjoy!
Exactly, or the Next Iran.
Nah. NATO intervened in Kosovo - who berated them for that? It's a bloodbath. Someone should have a moral conscience and step in.
In theory.
Yeah, I know, I know. Oil, blah, blah, blah...
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Why do you say "It's a bloodbath"?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Crunch Time:
From BBC Twitter
Libya's former Interior Minster Gen Abdel Fattah Younes al-Abidi, who defected last week, has told Al-Arabiyah that a "massive" pro-Gaddafi army convoy is heading towards Misrata. The town has no means to defend itself, he says, warning of a "real massacre".
So called sub-saharans:
More on the plight of sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, (see 1205 entry). William Guariento in Glasgow, UK writes: "I spent a month in Misurata, Libya in November. I was struck by the number of sub-Saharan Africans. Since hearing the many stories of 'African mercenaries', I have worried about these people. Who will protect them? If they don't speak Arabic, who will be able to distinguish them from the foreign soldiers that Colonel Gaddafi is said to be employing to shore up his regime?"
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
So people killed is a "bloodbath"? Or is there a particular number? If so how much?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
There was a guy on yesterday saying that 25 of his neighbours had been shot in one incident. 25 in a matter of minutes. So if you times that by hours, days, weeks, not just in one street, or town, but a whole country... God knows how many people. 2,000 - I bet this doesn't even come close. Aerial attacks - anti aircraft weaponry? I think bloodbath is pretty accurate, so I'll respectfully disagree if you don't.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
And you believe this, why? What evidence do you have that this "guy" was not reporting from back of CNN's newsroom?!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Because it wasn't a CNN report...
I think it's accepted worldwide by all nations (bar Venezeula) what's going on here, so I've no reason to doubt.
If it's more comfortable for you to think it's all some big conspiracy theory then fair enough. I'm not really into moon landing arguments and do we truly exist discussions but whatever floats your boat.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh, conspiracy theories are so irrational since there has never been a case where the "international" (i.e. western and their lackeys) media hyped a situation to justify invasion. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think it's pretty much unanimous. Heck, even China believes it.
Can I ask one question Anguish? Do you believe that the holocaust happened?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Well like Iraq, its a "slam dunk case" then? lol
Do you believe in the tooth fairy?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Cuba does not believe it. The Venezuelans trapped in Tripoli discount this story. I do not subscribe to it. It is illogical and fantastic.
Just like the previous announcement of the British Foreign Minister that Ghadafi had resigned and fled.
Lies and propaganda..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You didn't answer the question Anguish.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I did. I thought you figured it out. lol
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QB] Cuba does not believe it.
How do you know? Cubans are hostages in their own country and have been since Castro darkened every window in that country, aside from a few SeaSide resorts.
It's CASTRO, not Cuba.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It's an easy one. Yes or no. Anything beyond that will only confuse me. Lol.
It's not a trick question.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: It's not a trick question.
Really? I was of the impression it was. You didn't answer my question on the tooth fairy so why would you expect me to do likewise with yours? Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nah. I don't believe in the tooth fairy. Anymore.
So?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Bingo.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QB] Cuba does not believe it.
How do you know? Cubans are hostages in their own country and have been since Castro darkened every window in that country, aside from a few SeaSide resorts.
It's CASTRO, not Cuba.
Actually, Castro > Bush/Reagan/Carter/Obama, and will very likely be in power after Obama has come and gone. The man has survived over 500 assassination attempts by the US.
Following the Cuban revolution, he deported all of the white slave master out of the country. Where are they today? Miami, praying that he dies while getting welfare from US taxpayers to bombard us with Anti-Castro propaganda. Unfortunately for them, it was they who died while Castro has converted the Cuban economy from Prostitution, gambling, and drugs to Medicine.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Good grief MK, can you step out of your little black bubble for just once and actually do a little RESEARCH on what life is like in Cuba for the average cuban under Castro's Communist Regime! It's horrible!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QB] Cuba does not believe it.
How do you know? Cubans are hostages in their own country and have been since Castro darkened every window in that country, aside from a few SeaSide resorts.
It's CASTRO, not Cuba.
Cuba is a free tourist zone and anyone can take a visit to this beautiful country and see it.
The Cuban government, the Venezuelan government, do not buy the story.
I would stop believing such stories myself after hearing the British Foreign Minsiter tell a barefaced lie on international T.V. He informed the world that Ghadafi had fled to Venezuela. That was awicked lie.
They also said that Ghadafi would be gone by last Thursday. He is still here. They said his navy turned against him, that turnd out a lie. The said the army desert him, but the army is still with him. They said the airforce fled, then they said the airforce is bombing civilians in Tripoli, then they said they were quite so sure any more.
Do you wish to be led by such sources?
The west has no credibility.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
The only "beautiful" part of Cuba is a small "Tourist Zone"! PERIOD! The rest of it is mainly slums. I know first hand, do you? Or do you only rely on media resources like the Daily Mail for your info?
Who's the one being led here, huh?
and NO not everyone is allowed there, plz...inform yourself a little better.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Of course, US whites actually go out of their way to HIDE the existance of this program, Castro enacted for African Americans. What has the US offered us but jails, stereotypes and, more Jail.
Note how the Republicans and Obama Democrates are cutting spending to all social programs providing safety nets for the poor, but allocated record funding to the military ($600B), and the US Prison systems ($60B).
US Cool to Fidel's Teaching Offer
The Clinton administration evidently does not wish to have publicized Castro's offer to have Cuba teach medicine to college graduates from underserved U.S. minority communities.
Juan Gonzalez, the New York Daily News reporter and co-host with Amy Goodman of Pacifica Radio's "Democracy Now" program, reports how the State Department refused a visa to Ricardo Alarcon, the president of Cuba's National Assembly, to attend a Congressional Black Caucus conference and dinner. (N.Y. Daily News, Sept. 15, 2000).
The 38-person caucus had invited Alarcon to attend so that they might announce plans for the program, which they had welcomed.
When Alarcon got no answer to his request for a visa to go to Washington from the United Nations meeting, Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel wrote to Clinton at the end of August, "It would be a great embarrassment to the caucus, as well as to our government, to have a formal invitation at this level be rescinded for any reason short of a diplomatic catastrophe."
Nevertheless, the visa was not granted, and neither the White House nor the State Department would say why.
Yet the Congressional Black Caucus greeted Clinton heartily when he and Gore came to the conference soliciting votes for Gore.
Will the Congressional Black Caucus now demand that the pre-med students be allowed to go to Cuba for their free training, or will it drop the matter? -P.S.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: the British Foreign Minsiter tell a barefaced lie on international T.V. He informed the world that Ghadafi had fled to Venezuela. That was awicked lie.
More misguided, I'd say. I think he was using Twitter as a source and we all know how reliable that is. He's had a paddy now though and stopped tweeting.
Or maybe he's on holiday. In Cuba, with a fat cigar. Nothing would surprise me.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: The only "beautiful" part of Cuba is a small "Tourist Zone"! PERIOD! The rest of it is mainly slums. I know first hand, do you? Or do you only rely on media resources like the Daily Mail for your info?
Who's the one being led here, huh?
and NO not everyone is allowed there, plz...inform yourself a little better.
The Carribean is my second home...
But back on topic, they (the west) have been leading the dis-information war against Libya.
A state has the imperative to maintain peace, order and national security. If it cannot keep up with these three jobs it dies.
Libyan government is right to quell the rioters. They are a threat to public order and no strong government will tolerate a rule of rabbles.
No, not even the United States ...
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Libya is not a state. It's a dictatorship. full stop. Therein lies the difference, and the reason the ppl have the full right to rebel in any way, shape or form.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Libya under Jamahirriya is now 40 years old. Ghadafi has no official title or function in Libya, except to play the role of sage and teacher, and inspirator.
Jamahirriya gave power to the Libyan people for over 40 years now. Every thing is run by freely elected peoples' committe.
Dictatorship exists in your imagination.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Libya under Jamahirriya is now 40 years old. Ghadafi has no official title or function in Libya, except to play the role of sage and teacher, and inspirator.
Jamahirriya gave power to the Libyan people for over 40 years now. Every thing is run by freely elected peoples' committe.
Dictatorship exists in your imagination.
ROFL ok sure...lol Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Libya under Jamahirriya is now 40 years old. Ghadafi has no official title or function in Libya, except to play the role of sage and teacher, and inspirator.
Jamahirriya gave power to the Libyan people for over 40 years now. Every thing is run by freely elected peoples' committe.
Dictatorship exists in your imagination.
ROFL ok sure...lol
I like that you ROFL. But watch, Ghadafi gonna come out of this attack with his head standing high and proud. Because dislike him as you want, on this particular matter, he is right ex aequos ex bonos.
He will still be there next week Sunday when I will be making light fun of you. My words are prophetic... Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Explain to me why all the money is in "Gadaffi's pocket" then.
Why, when their backs are finally to the wall, he and all these other filthy corrupt rulers are now saying how much they want to do for the ppl. Pleeeeeeeeease!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
In what way? As exemplied by his many "Rolls Royce?" or by his many "mansions" in America and Switzerland?
Lol you bin listening to too much western propaganda. They have no hold on Ghadafi. He has no money stashed away in the west, so he is not afraid of them like Mubaraka and Ben Ali. He has no company shares to protect, he does not eat pork, nor drink alcohol, so he cannot be compromised.
He is a simple man with simple bedouin tastes. That is his strenght.
That is why he will survive. Mark my words...
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Why isn't the mainstream Media showing the atrocities of the Rebels?? Why are they not showing the clips of black Lybians being beat, why is it a one sided story where Quaddafi is only doint wrong. Both sides are killing, not just Quadaffi.
I've noticed in this revolution, and I don't just mean Libya, is that it appears it is personal with the press.
Perhaps this is the result of the many beatings they received by the Egyptian regime. Many are however as enthusiastic as the pro-democracy demonstrators when it comes to regimes falling. There is emotion there that is not usually characteristic of journalist.
There appears to be a feeling that they want to see this go all the way (beyond Libya), reporters are tweeting Libya now, where should I fly to next? That "revolution" and not just the Libyan revolution appears to be their focus. They were focusing on Egypt few weeks ago, now on Libya with an eye on other countries.
Regarding the victimization of sub-Saharan Africans (non mercenaries), and with all frankness, it does not appear to be at the top of their priorities. Could they be percieving their deaths as "limited", I really don't know. What I know, or what it appears to me is that their priorities are:
1. Qadaffi
2. Revolutionaries
3. Western Response including repatriating Western Citizens
4. Humanitarian issues including the plight of sub-Saharan Africans
This is my opinion, or at least how the focus of the press seems. Recently however I have noticed an increase of articles in African News as well as Western Networks on Africa (e.g BBC Africa).
Dude its deeper, Im talking about so called Liberal stations and Liberal reporters calling for Obama to "Take action" and invade Lybia?? What for?? Can not the Lybians handle their own problems. They feed us one liner about how the Arabs are upset that Obama did not intervine early in Egypt. It pisses me off, THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM, but the Media is trying relentlessly to get American millitary involved in this.
Also why are the people of Palestine not "Protesting" LOL, You mean people in Iran will protest but not in Palestine?? Dude this is nothing but Order out of Chaos...
Why should we care aboutwhat these arabs are doing, We are in two wars already and just cut Taxes. The States are on the verge of bankrupt, Pensions are in Jeopardy, Job Continue to be lost, We need to handle our own problems instead of worring about a bunch of crazed Arabs supposedly getting mad at the dictators they supported for 30 and 40 years.
That would be the neo-cons. As far as Palestinians protesting, that would be insignificant, they are under occupation and on top of that they are under control of not 1 but 2 brutal regimes (hamas and PA). Leave these poor people out of it. They are literally choking, but they did manage a midnight parade when Mubarak fell. In this puzzle in this revolution, they will be the last to be liberated. Point being leave the handicap out of it, and the Palestinians do in fact have one arm tied behind their backs.
The US should not care, it should fulfill it's moral obligation and vote for a no-fly-zone. No one wants to see one US boot in Libya. Look how busted the US is now, on account of Iraq and Afghanistan, you think there are enough money printing machines to get out of wars in:
In the best interest of the USA, they should stay out of it. The country is broke as is, thanks to 2 wars that are going nowhere. No More Wars. A simple Np-Fly-Zone, thank you.
Obama might just turn out to be the most important president in US history.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
A no fly zone is a declaration of war dummy. So are sanctions.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: A no fly zone is a declaration of war dummy. So are sanctions.
Hey Bingo, act of war is one thing, boots are another.
Edit: removed Prove it.Please enlighten me where it is proven that both sanctions and no-fly-zones are considered as declarations of war?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You are incredibly naive or just plain stupid. Sanctions and no fly zones are designed to cripple your opponent so if you need to go in it wont be too difficult. Boots on the ground is just one phase of a war, in Iraq's case, the final one.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
By Naomi Goldstein April 11, 1968
Since the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King on April 4, every bourgeois politician from the racist Texan in the White House to the “liberal” mayor of New York City has called on the Black people to honor Dr. King by practicing his method of nonviolence.
“America is shocked and saddened by the brutal slaying of Dr. Martin Luther King. I ask every citizen to reject the blind violence that has struck Dr. King, who lived by nonviolence,” President Johnson piously requested, just one day before calling in thousands of federal troops to terrorize the Black community in Washington, D.C.
The mournful words were hardly out of their mouths when the representatives of the racist ruling class called on National Guard units and federal troops to invade flaming ghettos in cities across the country, including Washington, Chicago, New York, Detroit, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and many others.
While the warmongers in Washington were conveniently preaching nonviolence to the Black people, 110 cities exploded in rebellion against the oppressor’s violence. By Monday evening 9,000 had been arrested and many more thousands wounded and beaten by the heavily armed troops.
In Washington, 4,000 Army and National Guard troops were called in to protect the White House and other government buildings. Flags flew at half staff and Congressmen eulogized the “man of peace” as combat troops set up machine gun posts on the steps of the Capitol building.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: You are incredibly naive or just plain stupid. Sanctions and no fly zones are designed to cripple your opponent so if you need to go in it wont be too difficult. Boots on the ground is just one phase of a war, in Iraq's case, the final one.
Thing is those are your words. How about proving them, reference a UN manadate that states a fly-zone is an act of war. And also reference any mandate that sanctions are an act of war.
There are no fly zones all over the world. Including one that is over the White House, is the White House in a state of war with the rest of the US?
Educate me. Where are your sources that a no-fly-zone is an act of war? And where are you sources that sanctions amount to an act of war?
Waiting......
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: A no fly zone is a declaration of war dummy. So are sanctions.
Ping! Prove it dude. There are sanctions on Iran now from many countries, are those declarations of war.
Yeah you are the smart one Bingo Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
They are acts of war, you dont need a UN mandate to tell you this. Its called "war by other means". And no fly zones over white house are not same as ones over Iraq and proposed for Libya you jackass. My god did your tweeting ass just graduated from some liberal arts college? lol
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: They are acts of war, you dont need a UN mandate to tell you this. Its called "war by other means". And no fly zones over white house are not same as ones over Iraq and proposed for Libya you jackass. My gods did your tweeting ass just graduated from some liberal arts college? lol
Dude educate me. I don't know this. Really. I want you to provide some credible sources. Am I to take your word for it? Is this Forum that is reading this thread to take your word for it?!
Please as a courtesy provide some sources, references, is it limited to Libyan law? If it's in Arabic it can be translated.
Waiting....
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You know, I'm sure theres a good reason your dumbass is "exiled". lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: You know, I'm sure theres a good reason your dumbass is "exiled". lol
That's your reply? I'm not the only one reading this, and others will arise at their own conclusions. You expect people to believe your BS?!
You got played. Your credibility is ..... a roll of toilet paper, because that is all your are good for.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't think that trying to impose a no fly zone is an act of war, but actually imposing it will be.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I don't think that trying to impose a no fly zone is an act of war, but actually imposing it will be.
What about sanctions? Trying to impose them is not an act of war, but actually imposing the are?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Yes but we have control over sanctions. We don't have control over whether they decide to fly anyway. All we can do is tell them not to and hope for the best. So what if they don't? What, do we fine them? Impose more sanctions? Or do we physically stop them. Act of war.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ yes, its a no brainer really. Some people are just beyond education. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Yes but we have control over sanctions. We don't have control over whether they decide to fly anyway. All we can do is tell them not to and hope for the best. So what if they don't? What, do we fine them? Impose more sanctions? Or do we physically stop them. Act of war.
Where are you getting this information from. If you don't mind I would like to read that a no-fly-zone is indeed an of "act of war", and also what you wrote above about sanctions.
I know this will be important not only in Libya but probably in ensuing nations.
Waiting for your sources. Maybe I might have my own apology to dish out.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Where are you getting this information from.
Its called common sense and logic.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: If you don't mind I would like to read that a no-fly-zone is indeed an of "act of war",
hehehe how dumb and theory-laden can you be, seriously. lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^ yes, its a no brainer really. Some people are just beyond education.
Sources Bingo. Just sources, lets see if monkey saves your ass. (which I doubt) Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I already did dumbo, but as predicted you choose to ignore it.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
No, no. I don't mean that. I said - saying "you can't fly" - pish. What's that? Ok. Say the UN tells me "you can't smoke". So I decide to light up anyway. What will they do, just sit there and say "oh go on then, it's ok" (and look like a complete bunch of wusses) or will they physically force me to stop.
The saying it means nothing. It's the actually stopping it that will be the act of war. And I think you're right Exiiled - there's a long list of countries ready to topple in this deck of cards. They won't all fall so easily as Egypt and Tunisia - there's plenty of unfinished business in those too. But when you get to Saudi and Iran and Iraq - buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride. And I don't think the West should sit idly by whilst atrocities go on. If we hadn't all gotten involved... alright... if America hadn't gotten involved a little while back, we'd all be sitting here reading Die Zeit over a plate of bratwurst and sauerkraut.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Where are you getting this information from.
Its called common sense and logic.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: If you don't mind I would like to read that a no-fly-zone is indeed an of "act of war",
hehehe how dumb and theory-laden can you be, seriously. lol
"common sense" when has there ever been common sense between nations. It's called diplomacy and not scottissueacy. There are mandates and laws, and the UN is the biggest bureaucracy of them all.
I want proof. I want proof that a no-fly-zone is an act of war.
I want proof that sanctions are an act of war.
Common sense. Yeaaaaaa dude. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No, no. I don't mean that. I said - saying "you can't fly" - pish. What's that? Ok. Say the UN tells me "you can't smoke". So I decide to light up anyway. What will they do, just sit there and say "oh go on then, it's ok" (and look like a complete bunch of wusses) or will they physically force me to stop.
You have to write it down so he can read it or draw a picture on the board, he cant figure it out for himself. lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No, no. I don't mean that. I said - saying "you can't fly" - pish. What's that? Ok. Say the UN tells me "you can't smoke". So I decide to light up anyway. What will they do, just sit there and say "oh go on then, it's ok" (and look like a complete bunch of wusses) or will they physically force me to stop.
The saying it means nothing. It's the actually stopping it that will be the act of war. And I think you're right Exiiled - there's a long list of countries ready to topple in this deck of cards. They won't all fall so easily as Egypt and Tunisia - there's plenty of unfinished business in those too. But when you get to Saudi and Iran and Iraq - buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride. And I don't think the West should sit idly by whilst atrocities go on. If we hadn't all gotten involved... alright... if America hadn't gotten involved a little while back, we'd all be sitting here reading Die Zeit over a plate of bratwurst and sauerkraut.
It's not about what you think, or what I think.
Where is it stated that a no-fly-zone is an act of war?
Very simple. I don't want opinions, sick of them. I want facts.
Present them.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Technically he's right though. Saying it isn't an act of war in itself. But saying it isn't worth toffee - not with a fruitloop like that.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
That goes without saying. Words are just that until they are back up with actions. And this is why sanctions are considered as an act of war, with good reason.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Technically he's right though. Saying it isn't an act of war in itself. But saying it isn't worth toffee - not with a fruitloop like that.
Prove it, or is your word good enough. Just prove it. It's very simple.
Why can't you prove it?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Prove what? Prove you're right?!!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
If you are a true patriot you will not go back to whichever country you were exiled from. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: That goes without saying. Words are just that until it back up with actions. And this is why sanctions are considered as an act of war, with good reason.
For the love of love, just prove what you are saying.
If you are right, I will say angusishnbeing was right, in bold letters.
Just prove it, seriously how can you expect anyone to take what you say for fact. Seriously, are human beings that stupid, when a member of ES states something and it is to be taken as fact?
Some respect please, a link, a source, anything.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Prove what? Prove you're right?!!
I don't think that trying to impose a no fly zone is an act of war, but actually imposing it will be.
Prove that imposing a no-fly-zone is an act of war.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Because if it takes aggression to impose it, that's an act of war.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I've just seen the news and our SAS have been back in to get more people from the desert. They were hit by "light enemy fire" and had to abort the second and third pickups.
When there was the trouble in Cairo, they weren't ordering people out like this. And they certainly weren't putting themselves out much to get them.
When NATO bombed Kosovo, they imposed a no fly zone a matter of days before it started.
So totting that up, unless someone gets to him first or he decides to go quietly, I know where I think it's going.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Because if it takes aggression to impose it, that's an act of war.
Ya habibti, I'm being sweet. That's your opinion. You don't even know how a no-fly-zone is enforced.
There could be a coalition of soldiers, and one might man the radar, the other the coordinates, and after several more steps orders to the pilot to shoot down a transgressing plane.
I simplified matters, all of those officers IMPOSED the no-fly-zone. It is not an act of aggression because under UN law, states must adhere to the resolutions that were agreed upon.
It's bureaucracy, monkey, A UN mandate makes the nation flying the plane as the aggressor as was the case in Iraq. It's not aggression, It is basically enforcing the law, or mandate of the UN.
It's a resolution, where states of the security council have voted unambiguously to Impose the no-fly-zone. The offending nation is actually an outlaw.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well it doesn't really matter now. The act of aggression came from them so that's that.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Correction: unanimously and not unambiguously
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: orders to the pilot to shoot down a transgressing plane.
And this is not war. lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Next time anyone says anything about:
No-Fly-Zone Sanctions
Bring you proof. Your own words are not good enough.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Technically, linguistically, Exiiled is right.
But we have been somewhere similar before.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: orders to the pilot to shoot down a transgressing plane.
And this is not war. lol
War against who? UK? US? FR? NL?
The soldier that manned the radar? [UK] The soldier that relayed the coordinates? [FR] The officer that gave the command to the pilot [USA] that shot the plane? The pilot who actually shot the plane? [NL]
You can "lol" all you want, you are not fooling anyone. Don't waste my time next time.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh, technically the UN is an org. for world peace. In practice, the history shows otherwise. To simply outline UN mandate is in no way disproving the argument that sanctions and the imposition of no fly zones are in effect acts of war.
quote:War against who? UK? US? FR? NL?
NL? LOL
quote:You can "lol" all you want, you are not fooling anyone. Don't waste my time next time.
You can outline UN mandates (as if that doesnt make it a war LMAO!!!) all you want, they are acts of war, period.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I want to change my plea. In the above scenario, UK & FR were simply overseeing - that's not imposing.
That's my belief anyhoo.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I want to change my plea. In the above scenario, UK & FR were simply overseeing - that's not imposing.
Yeh cause this would mean the UN is not US controlled and thus the action an "international effort". LOL
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I want to change my plea. In the above scenario, UK & FR were simply overseeing - that's not imposing.
That's my belief anyhoo.
You've been flip-flopping all night what's new. Feel sorry for the poor lad that met your acquaintance.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Why hasn't the UN imposed no fly zones on Israel?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I'm exercising my woman's right to flip flop Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
LOL! Why no reply? I thought the UN was an "international organization"? Why cant the "UK? US? FR? NL"? all impose a no fly zone and sanctions on Israel?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Because Israel = America + America = the UN?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why hasn't the UN imposed no fly zones on Israel?
You know something Anguish, I agree with you the UN is corrupt. I believe that wholeheartedly. You just made a very classic point of the unfairness. The US vetos all resolutions against Israel even before the draft is written.
It's the UN game though, to change the US veto, things in the US have to change. Personally I want the permenant SC to be abolished, or at the very least to have a permanent African state member, permanent South American member, etc. This is shared by several politicans across the globe, it is 2011 and not 1949.
The 3rd world has to unifying voice in the UN, they have to learn how to play the game. There is too much division, and this has to change.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Talk about flip flopping. You just finished defending its actions now you see it as corrupt. Something you "wholeheartedly" believe. LOL!
You poor confused naive soul. The UN is effectively controlled by the US. So no change in US veto power anywhere. Technically Costa Rica could have "actually shot the plane", it was the US and UK through Jewish pressure that pressures UN to come down on Muslim Arab states they dislike. You "wholeheartedly" agree that the UN is corrupt but dont see their selective imposition of no fly zones and sanctions as an act of war. LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Why would Israel want the UN to wind up Gaddafi? If anything they would be wanting to keep it all as stable as possible.
China's pretty much overtaken the US now hasn't it? I just don't see that Israel, or America, has as much clout as it once did. Otherwise you wouldn't have had Obama telling Mubarak to leave office - that's the last thing Israel would have wanted to happen. And a lot of the EU countries were against Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think this has got anything to do with Israel.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Talk about flip flopping. You just finished defending its actions now you see it as corrupt. Something you "wholeheartedly" believe. LOL!
You poor confused native soul. The UN is effectively controlled by the US. So no change in US veto power anywhere. Technically Costa Rica could have "actually shot the plane", it was the US and UK through Jewish pressure that pressures UN to come down on Muslim Arab states they dislike. You "wholeheartedly" agree that the UN is corrupt but dont see their selective imposition of no fly zones and sanctions as an act of war. LOL
No dude. That was my way of saying goodnight. And advising you to keep it real. Next time you mention or state anything here, be prepared to back it up. Keep it real.
Because even though the status quo might not be fair, your words are insignificant.
It's not flip flopping, but if it makes you feel good, whatever.
Just keep it real. And you know and I know, you got played tonight. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Gaddafi has history of anti-Zionism, Israel doesn't forget. And if US and Israel didn't have the clout anymore, sanctions and no fly zones would be imposed on the Zionist state. Stop dreaming and hoping, I bet you voted for Obama.
And a lot of EU nations opposed the Iraq war, so what?!! LOL! The Israel lobby wanted it, that has alot to do with Israel. lol
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Talk about flip flopping. You just finished defending its actions now you see it as corrupt. Something you "wholeheartedly" believe. LOL!
You poor confused native soul. The UN is effectively controlled by the US. So no change in US veto power anywhere. Technically Costa Rica could have "actually shot the plane", it was the US and UK through Jewish pressure that pressures UN to come down on Muslim Arab states they dislike. You "wholeheartedly" agree that the UN is corrupt but dont see their selective imposition of no fly zones and sanctions as an act of war. LOL
No dude. That was my way of saying goodnight. And advising you to keep it real. Next time you mention or state anything here, be prepared to back it up. Keep it real.
Because even though the status quo might not be fair, your words are insignificant.
It's not flip flopping, but if it makes you feel good, whatever.
Just keep it real. And you know and I know, you got played tonight.
LOL Yeh good night flip flopper, wasn't that the point of your whole UN apologia to paint the the UN not an entity that declares wars on nations but a conglam of different nations, an "international org"? Below you said:
quote: War against who? UK? US? FR? NL? The soldier that manned the radar? [UK] The soldier that relayed the coordinates? [FR]The officer that gave the command to the pilot [USA] that shot the plane? The pilot who actually shot the plane? [NL]
^ so therefore are you saying here that the "world" is corrupt? LOL!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Gaddafi has history of anti-Zionism, Israel doesn't forget. And if US and Israel didn't have the clout anymore, sanctions and no fly zones would be imposed on the Zionist state. Stop dreaming and hoping, I bet you voted for Obama.
And a lot of EU nations opposed the Iraq war, so what?!! LOL! The Israel lobby wanted it, that has alot to do with Israel. lol
One more thing. Drop the lol, it makes you look like an idiot. You use it more than my teenage niece.
LOL (sorry couldn't help myself) Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Flip flopping on the UN, after their obvious double standard was thrown in your face, makes you look idiotic. LOL
Bringing up Israel always ends the argument on UN credibility every time! LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't think it's right that Israel gets away with everything it does. Those that should do something about either pat them on the head (America and the UK) or there's a general sense of apathy (Arab governments, rest of the world). To say Israel rules the world is stretching it. There's China, Russia, India, lots of Arab and EU countries that don't cowtow to them. The whole world doesn't boil down to Israel, America and certainly not the UK.
Nah, I don't believe in the tooth fairy, and I don't believe in David Icke either.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Flip flopping on the UN, after their obvious double standard was thrown in your face, makes you look idiotic. LOL
Bringing up Israel always ends the argument on UN credibility every time! LOL
LOL
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ ditto LOL!
Jews rule the world by proxy - Dr. Mahathir Mohamad. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^ ditto LOL!
Jews rule the world by proxy - Dr. Mahathir Mohamad.
Cool. Drop the LOL, drop the nonsense, drop making sh!t up, and you'll get respect. Alright bro!
Anything you say, back it up. You just quoted Dr.M that's cool. Genuine quote.
But when you start making up your own nonsense about No-Fly-Zone and Sanctions, sorry there are precedents in the UN that contradict your nonsense.
Keep it real. All I'm asking. Just keep it real.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh cause technicalities and bureaucratic mandates from a corrupt organization disproves the argument that no fly zones and sanctions are in effect acts of war. LOL!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Plot by Gaddafi family to grab £900m in new Libyan banknotes from UK
^^Propaganda-fueled British Newspapers..
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
THIS IS WHY THOSE ROACHES AND RATS WILL FAIL:
Kenyan workers who have just flown in to Nairobi after fleeing the unrest have been telling how they were set upon by Libyans who took them for mercenaries. "We were being attacked by local people... Let me say that they did not want to see black people," Julius Kiluu, a 60-year-old building supervisor, told Reuters...
THOSE WANNA BE REVOLUTIONARIES OF LIBYA'S EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN COAST ARE JUST FUCHING ROACHES AND RACIST COWARDS!
Lion!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Lion, they weren't attacked for being black, per se. Come on, how many Sub Saharan Africans live in Libya? They were attacked for matching the description of the mercenairies.
If the mercenaries had been ginger people, and ginger people were being hunted down, would we be having all this? I think not.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
What were the descriptions? Black! Real Africans.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Lion, they weren't attacked for being black, per se. Come on, how many Sub Saharan Africans live in Libya? They were attacked for matching the description of the mercenairies.
If the mercenaries had been ginger people, and ginger people were being hunted down, would we be having all this? I think not.
How many reports of lynching or harrasment of Ukrainian, Russians or so-called white people have you heard on the news in response to this accusation?
I am waiting your response...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well that's an easy one. Ukranian pilots - i.e. they were up in the air. Why would they be looking for them on the ground?
Simples when you think about it.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Really Monkey, so the Kenyan immigrants that were threatened and abused were on the grounds eh? Yet, the thousands of Ukrainians living in Libya are not on the ground?
According to you, it is ok for innocent Kenyans to suffer for the rumored misdeeds of Chadian mecernaries, but it is not ok that British subjects suffer for the misdeeds of some Ukrainians mecernaries... Interesting..
You said "they were up in the air. Why would they be looking for them on the ground...?"
Well, the answer is because they (Ukranians) do not live in the air, they have to come down to eat and sleep.
Interesting evasive and selective reasoning from you...
It is ok for you to punish innocent black people, but you will find it hard to conceive a punishment for any pink people whether guilty or innocent.
Well that is why your fake revolution will fail...
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
UPDATE 1-US repositioning forces around Libya-Pentagon
Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:52pm GMT
WASHINGTON Feb 28 (Reuters) - The U.S. military is repositioning naval and air forces around Libya, a Pentagon official said on Monday, as international demands intensify for an end to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's four-decade rule....
^Since the fake revolution has been shown to be a dud and a failure, United States would now go in to finish off its failed attempted coup against Ghadafi.
What rats and roaches. I thought it was a popular revolution.
Yes, but let them try and attack Libie..., it will fail in a more spectacular manner than did the attack on Iraq.
Justice does not sleep, anymore...
Down with all attempted theft of Libie's vast oil resources.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Really Monkey, so the Kenyan immigrants that were threatened and abused were on the grounds eh? Yet, the thousands of Ukrainians living in Libya are not on the ground?
According to you, it is ok for innocent Kenyans to suffer for the rumored misdeeds of Chadian mecernaries, but it is not ok that British subjects suffer for the misdeeds of some Ukrainians mecernaries... Interesting..
You said "they were up in the air. Why would they be looking for them on the ground...?"
Well, the answer is because they (Ukranians) do not live in the air, they have to come down to eat and sleep.
Interesting evasive and selective reasoning from you...
It is ok for you to punish innocent black people, but you will find it hard to conceive a punishment for any pink people whether guilty or innocent.
Well that is why your fake revolution will fail...
No, no, no, no, no. Put the race card back away. When did I ever say I agree with punishing innocent black people? When did I say I agree with punishing the mercenaries? I feel sorry for the mercenaries. Would you agree to go off to a foreign country and fight a foreign war for a measily $2,000? They probably didn't even think it though properly - and if they did, that just shows how desperate they must have been for the money. I think it's a tragedy really, but how the hell can you stand up for Gaddafi when he brought them in to get slaughtered like that? You stand up for the regime, yet if he were a responsible leader, he would have seen that this would lead to persecution of his own black citizens. Nah, he couldn't give a toss. So why support him? Doesn't make any sense.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Since the fake revolution has been shown to be a dud and a failure, United States would now go in to finish off its failed attempted coup against Ghadafi.
What rats and roaches. I thought it was a popular revolution.
Yes, but let them try and attack Libie..., it will fail in a more spectacular manner than did the attack on Iraq.
Justice does not sleep, anymore...
Down with all attempted theft of Libie's vast oil resources.
Yes, it seems the thugs ("revolutionaries") on the ground need some help. Its not like we didn't see this coming, act of war. I told a fool in here that sanctions and no fly zones are in effect acts of war. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Is it groundhog day?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Life is one big ground hog day. We are Sisyphus. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
So let's be clear about this.
Islam inevitably creates corrupt, dysfunctional societies which are highly vulnerable to exploitation.
And then when internal and/or external forces inevitably exploit these inept Islamic societies, Muslims blame either the Jews, the Christians, the Americans, or the West in general for all of their problems while failing to admit that the root cause of their problems lies within themselves.
And then to top it off, the Muslims believe (because of the actual dictates of their religion), that the proper response to all conflict is to proclaim jihad and to go forth and pillage and plunder for their god Allah. Such is the legacy of Muhammad's Islam.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: So let's be clear about this.
Islam inevitably creates corrupt, dysfunctional societies which are highly vulnerable to exploitation.
And then when internal and/or external forces inevitably exploit these inept Islamic societies, Muslims blame either the Jews, the Christians, the Americans, or the West in general for all of their problems while failing to admit that the root cause of their problems lies within themselves.
And then to top it off, the Muslims believe (because of the actual dictates of their religion), that the proper response to all conflict is to proclaim jihad and to go forth and pillage and plunder for their god Allah. Such is the legacy of Muhammad's Islam.
SaleemSmith | February 25, 2011 10:56 AM | Reply So let's be clear about this.
Islam inevitably creates corrupt, dysfunctional societies which are highly vulnerable to exploitation.
And then when internal and/or external forces inevitably exploit these inept Islamic societies, Muslims blame either the Jews, the Christians, the Americans, or the West in general for all of their problems while failing to admit that it is Islam itself that is the root cause of their problems.
And then to top it off, the Muslims believe (because of the actual dictates of their religion), that the proper response to all conflict is to proclaim jihad and to go forth and pillage and plunder for their non-existent god Allah. Such is the evil legacy of Muhammad's sick cult of Islam.
So much for Islam being the religion of peace, justice and tolerance. I am an ex-Muslim.
Not a single original thought in that empty skull of yours, you plagiarizer. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
vwwvv: don't be freaky. Why are you stalking me? I said I was done already. Don't be following me round with your ninja cut and paste technique Take it back to the religion thread.
Unbelievable...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: We are Sisyphus.
I think my cat had that once.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
It will be interesting to see how Libyans react to foreign intervention. I was half listening to tv (AJE)a while ago and one reporter was stating something about how the ppl have said they don't want any foreign intervention and if troops start coming in, they will fight them as well as Gadaffi...hmmm
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I heard that too. I think the people who are setting up a counsel for the revolutionaries said they want to do it on their own. But then you see floods of people coming of the planes saying something should be done, the UN is being criticised by the Arab League now for not doing anything aren't they?
Do you think they should go in Laura?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I heard that too. I think the people who are setting up a counsel for the revolutionaries said they want to do it on their own. But then you see floods of people coming of the planes saying something should be done, the UN is being criticised by the Arab League now for not doing anything aren't they?
Do you think they should go in Laura?
*haih*..
Gut feeling...no People have their pride, every nation does, if they think they can do it on their own, them leave them alone. Let it be their victory, and be beholding to no one. My husband brought up something interesting today, that the US wants to get in there so bad, not for the oil, but to set up a military base in Tripoli, for obvious reasons. Something to think about.
What about you Monkey?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Or else. They put a hefty "bounty" on Saddams head, why not Gadaffi? Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Hmm. I dunno really. Some of the images coming out of there... And how many tonnes of mustard gas is he sitting on? The man's a psychopath and he's got to be stopped.
But no, I'm not offering
Bounty sounds like an excellent idea. Think the 800 million he tried to lift from here the other day ought to do the trick. Now at that price, maybe I am offering Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: The man's a psychopath and he's got to be stopped.
Translation: we dont like him so lets have a regime change. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
The worst that can happen to Libya right now is outside interference. The need to finish what they started and rebuild from their.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
If big countries feel they can just plan and steal away another country before the entire world, then Babylon system is definitely in a lawless era and about to repeat the mistakes of 1914 - 1918, the first world war.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
When the Viva Palestinia convoy came through Egypt about 2 years ago, hubby and I went to meet and greet them at their stopping point on the North Coast rd. While having lunch, the Libyan man, who was traveling with them sat with us for a while and chatted. He was one of Gadaffi's top aides. Was such an extremely pleasant and nice man, I can't help but wonder what side of the fence he is on now.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Egyptian Armed Forces have released a statement (number 25) about Libya and getting folk back (I think! Can't copy and paste into google translate)
I know a friend's husband is an Egypt Air pilot and they have been sending flights over to get Egyptians. However, there are apparently 60000 Egyptians stuck on the Tunisian border. That is a LOT of planes and ships!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
The Libyan government has taken back a strategically important town about 600 kilometres east of Tripoli, called R'as Lanuf, where there are a lot of oil facilities....
Yahoo News
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
This Libyan Issue is growing worse and worse every day. You hope the Libyans don't fall into a Civil War but it seems that is what already happened.
People on Aljazeera were saying how Libya might get split into 2 different countries. You hope the people will realize what Egypt did which is not in violence but in peace ousted Mubarak.
The people are rising up and are letting there numbers speak for them. Remember governments are meant to serve the people and not the other way around.
Peace
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:You hope the people will realize what Egypt did which is not in violence but in peace ousted Mubarak.
Although a dictactor, Mubarak was nothing like Gaddafi. Gaddafi is a deluded man, a megalomaniac, a disturbed personality. Everyone can see that.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
Laura, Presstv is owned by Iran's government, and while they are accurate sometimes, they are also inaccurate at times as well, such as saif-al-arab(not Islam) defecting.
However I have read this before elsewhere, and one sources even quoted a Libyan ambassador. But considering the sources are questionable, I would put this in the unconfirmed category.
If I had to guess I would say it would go down like this:
1.)Libyan Revolutionaries amassing soldiers, tanks, personnel carriers (unconfirmed reports are they have about 400 tanks, mostly older T-models, and thousands of personnel carriers)
2.)No-Fly-Zone
3.)March Towards and Liberate Tripoli, without fear of attacks from the air.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
Laura, Presstv is owned by Iran's government, and while they are accurate sometimes, they are also inaccurate at times as well, such as saif-al-arab(not Islam) defecting.
However I have read this before elsewhere, and one sources even quoted a Libyan ambassador. But considering the sources are questionable, I would put this in the unconfirmed category.
If I had to guess I would say it would go down like this:
1.)Libyan Revolutionaries amassing soldiers, tanks, personnel carriers (unconfirmed reports are they have about 400 tanks, mostly older T-models, and thousands of personnel carriers)
2.)No-Fly-Zone
3.)March Towards and Liberate Tripoli, without fear of attacks from the air.
I know it's owned by Iran gov. Exiled, but I have been following this media along with tons of others and have found them to be any less credible/accurate than any others.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
Laura, Presstv is owned by Iran's government, and while they are accurate sometimes, they are also inaccurate at times as well, such as saif-al-arab(not Islam) defecting.
However I have read this before elsewhere, and one sources even quoted a Libyan ambassador. But considering the sources are questionable, I would put this in the unconfirmed category.
If I had to guess I would say it would go down like this:
1.)Libyan Revolutionaries amassing soldiers, tanks, personnel carriers (unconfirmed reports are they have about 400 tanks, mostly older T-models, and thousands of personnel carriers)
2.)No-Fly-Zone
3.)March Towards and Liberate Tripoli, without fear of attacks from the air.
I know it's owned by Iran gov. Exiled, but I have been following this media along with tons of others and have found them to be any less credible/accurate than any others.
I understand what your saying, and I think they probably use Iranian intelligence as sources. I'm just reluctant to take their word for it, and my selectivity has more to do with them being inaccurate in a couple of defections that never materialized. But they were on point in the Cairo Protest thread, when they first broke news of US warships heading to the suez canal. Western Media didn't mention it under a day or two later, which makes me believe that some of their sources are infact from Iranian intel. Again, not discounting everything what they say, but simply in the uncomfirmed category (as far as I'm concerned).
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Any CIA agent caught in Libie will face the ultimate music.
Period.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
CRUNCH TIME/REALITY DAWNS:
The New York Times reported that air strikes targeted an oil refinery in central Libya and said the strikes are an indication that the Qaddafi regime is stronger than some of the opposition seems willing to admit. According to the Times, this was the first time in 10 days that Qaddafi’s forces launched attacks by warplanes. Prior to this, opposition leaders claimed that all Air Force pilots had defected to the opposition.
The attacks by the colonel’s troops on an oil refinery in central Libya and on cities on either side of the country unsettled rebel leaders — who have maintained that they are close to liberating the country — and showed that despite defections by the military, the government may still possess powerful assets, including fighter pilots willing to bomb Libyan cities.
The Colonel is a wily desert fox!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
TELL IT TO THE BITCHES ALI SALEH, TELL IT LIKE IT IS:
Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, launched an attack on Barack Obama, saying: "Every day we hear a statement from Obama saying: 'Egypt you can't do this, Tunisia don't do that.' What do you have to do with Egypt? Or with Oman? ... Are you president of the United States, or president of the world?"
In his speech, at Sana'a University, he claimed that "there is an operations room in Tel Aviv with the aim of destabilizing the Arab world" and that it is "run by the White House
An hour after the president's speech, tens of thousands of protesters marched to the university, joined for the first time by opposition parties. Sheik Abdul-Majid al-Zindani, considered by the US to be linked to the al-Qaida terror network, was present at the gathering.
WHATZ UP WITH THE NEW ALLIANCE BETWEEN THE US, THEIR SPONSORED ROACHS AND THUG PROTESTERS, AND AL QAEEDA MUSLIM MILITANTS???
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
WHERE ARE THE TWO THOUSAND BODIES?
A 'Killed in Libya" spreadsheet has been set up to honour those killed during the protests in the country.
The document has 178 deaths recorded so far , with the names of the individuals, their age the date they died, and where they died.
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Although a dictactor, Mubarak was nothing like Gaddafi. Gaddafi is a deluded man, a megalomaniac, a disturbed personality. Everyone can see that.
Translation: we Zionists loved Mubarak so he is a better dictator. Posted by Pink cherry (Member # 13979) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Although a dictactor, Mubarak was nothing like Gaddafi. Gaddafi is a deluded man, a megalomaniac, a disturbed personality. Everyone can see that.
Translation: we Zionists loved Mubarak so he is a better dictator.
You mean because he had more torture chambers..............
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
paraphrase: "no illusions it [no fly zone] would include military operation not just telling people not to fly" - American military general.
No fly zone is in effect declaration of war, you fuking idiot. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
Laura, Presstv is owned by Iran's government, and while they are accurate sometimes, they are also inaccurate at times as well, such as saif-al-arab(not Islam) defecting.
However I have read this before elsewhere, and one sources even quoted a Libyan ambassador. But considering the sources are questionable, I would put this in the unconfirmed category.
If I had to guess I would say it would go down like this:
1.)Libyan Revolutionaries amassing soldiers, tanks, personnel carriers (unconfirmed reports are they have about 400 tanks, mostly older T-models, and thousands of personnel carriers)
2.)No-Fly-Zone
3.)March Towards and Liberate Tripoli, without fear of attacks from the air.
I know it's owned by Iran gov. Exiled, but I have been following this media along with tons of others and have found them to be any less credible/accurate than any others.
I understand what your saying, and I think they probably use Iranian intelligence as sources. I'm just reluctant to take their word for it, and my selectivity has more to do with them being inaccurate in a couple of defections that never materialized. But they were on point in the Cairo Protest thread, when they first broke news of US warships heading to the suez canal. Western Media didn't mention it under a day or two later, which makes me believe that some of their sources are infact from Iranian intel. Again, not discounting everything what they say, but simply in the uncomfirmed category (as far as I'm concerned).
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Is it still groundhog day?
Meh.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
what say you?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Who me?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Ground Hog says Ghadafi will still be here come December 2012 as Guide and Dean of the True Libyan Revolution...
What say you?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: paraphrase: "no illusions it [no fly zone] would include military operation not just telling people not to fly" - American military general.
No fly zone is in effect declaration of war, you fuking idiot. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Laura: Britain, France and the United States have dispatched hundreds of military advisors to Libya to set up military bases in the country's oil-rich east, reports say.
Several Libyan diplomats have been quoted by news outlets as saying these forces are setting up bases in the eastern cities of Benghazi and Tobruk -- the two oil-rich cities that have been liberated by the opposition forces.
British and US special forces entered Libyan port cities of Benghazi and Toburk on February 23 and 24.
Three Indian navy warships are also expected to be deployed in the region. Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
A Pentagon spokesman said various contingency plans are considered to provide options and flexibility once decisions are made.
Earlier on Monday, the US military confirmed it has deployed naval and air forces around Libya.
On Monday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would “continue to explore all possible options for action."
Laura, Presstv is owned by Iran's government, and while they are accurate sometimes, they are also inaccurate at times as well, such as saif-al-arab(not Islam) defecting.
However I have read this before elsewhere, and one sources even quoted a Libyan ambassador. But considering the sources are questionable, I would put this in the unconfirmed category.
If I had to guess I would say it would go down like this:
1.)Libyan Revolutionaries amassing soldiers, tanks, personnel carriers (unconfirmed reports are they have about 400 tanks, mostly older T-models, and thousands of personnel carriers)
2.)No-Fly-Zone
3.)March Towards and Liberate Tripoli, without fear of attacks from the air.
I know it's owned by Iran gov. Exiled, but I have been following this media along with tons of others and have found them to be any less credible/accurate than any others.
I understand what your saying, and I think they probably use Iranian intelligence as sources. I'm just reluctant to take their word for it, and my selectivity has more to do with them being inaccurate in a couple of defections that never materialized. But they were on point in the Cairo Protest thread, when they first broke news of US warships heading to the suez canal. Western Media didn't mention it under a day or two later, which makes me believe that some of their sources are infact from Iranian intel. Again, not discounting everything what they say, but simply in the uncomfirmed category (as far as I'm concerned).
I've tried to enlighten you (read: educate you), but your ignorance is rather permanent. You rant, and name call and it doesn't change the fact that you are very ignorant when it comes to UN mandates and SC resolutions.
Libya is a UN member and is obligated to adhere to UN law, which in essence is a treaty. Libya must comply with the resolutions of the UN security council or it is in violation of them. It is not an act of war by the UN to enforce a no-fly-zone. Libya's noncompliance can however be deemed a violation and their planes shot down. Get it! Libya is a UN member, and the UN has jurisdiction over approved UN resolutions. In layman terms: UN = Law, Libya = Outlaw if it violates a UN SC resolution.
You ignorantly also stated that sanctions are also an act of war. Oh you thought I forgot.
Resolution 1970(2011) was passed by 15 nations in the SC, does that constitute an act of war by these all the 15 nations nations? Including: Russia/China/Nigeria/Gabon.
Let me point out past UN SC resolution that was voted by one nation against another and relationship remains friendly.
Russia voted for Sanctions against Iran, under you ignorant view, you deem that as “an act of war.” Failing to realize that the relationship between Iran and Russia remains friendly. A diplomatic and economic relationship which includes agreements and accords that were signed after Russia voted for sanctions against Iran. Such cooperation even includes the building of the Bushehr nuclear power plant by Russia.
You love getting played, don't you.
P.S LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Hmm. I'd take that bet.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^^Exiile
Air strikes are just imagination and follow on propaganda of your western leaders. They lie, you guys slurp.
NO AIRSTRIKES EVER HAPPENED!
Read:
TodayThe reports of Libya mobilizing its air force against its own people spread quickly around the world. However, Russia's military chiefs say they have been monitoring from space -- and the pictures tell a different story. According to Al Jazeera and BBC, on February 22 Libyan government inflicted airstrikes on Benghazi -- the country's largest city -- and on the capital Tripoli. However, the Russian military, monitoring the unrest via satellite from the very beginning, says nothing of the sort was going on on the ground. At this point, the Russian military is saying that, as far as they are concerned, the attacks some media were reporting have never occurred. The same sources in Russia's military establishment say they are also monitoring the situation around Libya's oil pumping facilities.RT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/RTnewsRT on Twitter: http://twitter.com/RT_com Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: you are very ignorant when it comes to UN mandates and SC resolutions.
Who the hell said anything about the corrupt (your words ) UN and its mandates? Show where in my post did I base my argument on the corrupt (your words ) UN and its mandates?
Recap for slow learners: No fly zones and sanctions are in effect declarations of war.
"no illusions it [no fly zone] would include military operation not just telling people not to fly" - American military general.
Air strikes are just imagination and follow on propaganda of your western leaders. They lie, you guys slurp.
NO AIRSTRIKES EVER HAPPENED!
Read:
TodayThe reports of Libya mobilizing its air force against its own people spread quickly around the world. However, Russia's military chiefs say they have been monitoring from space -- and the pictures tell a different story. According to Al Jazeera and BBC, on February 22 Libyan government inflicted airstrikes on Benghazi -- the country's largest city -- and on the capital Tripoli. However, the Russian military, monitoring the unrest via satellite from the very beginning, says nothing of the sort was going on on the ground. At this point, the Russian military is saying that, as far as they are concerned, the attacks some media were reporting have never occurred. The same sources in Russia's military establishment say they are also monitoring the situation around Libya's oil pumping facilities.RT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/RTnewsRT on Twitter: http://twitter.com/RT_com
That's what Saif and his father keep telling the world. Yet there are Libyan pilots (3 so far) that explicitly said they were ordered to bomb civilian areas. 2 Pilots defected to Malta, 1 ejected outside of Libya. Then there are eye witness reports that have said that they were bombed. Objectively, which is more compelling? Saif and Muammar Ghadaffi or Libyan pilots and eyewitnesses.
The truth will come out.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: you are very ignorant when it comes to UN mandates and SC resolutions.
Who the hell said anything about the corrupt (your words ) UN and its mandates? Show where in my post did I base my argument on the corrupt (your words ) UN and its mandates?
Recap for slow learners: No fly zones and sanctions are in effect declarations of war.
"no illusions it [no fly zone] would include military operation not just telling people not to fly" - American military general.
You are truly brainless, the sanctions (1970/2011) were approved by the UN SC. The No-Fly-Zone will be approved by the UN.
I see you're playing stupid.
Right Bingo.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: The same sources in Russia's military establishment say they are also monitoring the situation around Libya's oil pumping facilities.RT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/RTnewsRT on Twitter: http://twitter.com/RT_com
From experience I'd point out that FB and Twitter are possibly the least reliable sources out there.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: You are truly brainless, the sanctions (1970/2011) were approved by the UN SC. The No-Fly-Zone will be approved by the UN.
I see you're playing stupid.
Right Bingo.
Tell me something simpleton, why are you constantly referring to an organization you "wholeheartedly" view as corrupt? Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: You are truly brainless, the sanctions (1970/2011) were approved by the UN SC. The No-Fly-Zone will be approved by the UN.
I see you're playing stupid.
Right Bingo.
Tell me something simpleton, why are you constantly referring to an organization you "wholeheartedly" view as corrupt?
It does not matter what I think. It's the UN, and Libya signed on the dotted line, it is a signatory. And as a result must comply with any and all UN SC resolutions that pass.
It's a matter of Law, and not a matter of subjectivity.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I dont give a shyt what the corrupt (your words lol) UN and technicalities or mandates say about no fly zones or sanctions, they are in effect declarations of war.
As an aside, the law is subject to interpretations dummy which is why it can be debated. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: I dont give a shyt what the corrupt (your words lol) UN and technicalities or mandates say about no fly zones or sanctions, they are in effect declarations of war.
As an aside, the law is subject to interpretations dummy which is why it can be debated.
I wasn't talking about draft resolutions but rather the actual resolution that passes UNSC vote. That is deemed final.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Oh Jesus... actual resolutions, draft resolutions, votes etc, fuk em all.
In effect, no fly zones and sanctions are declarations of war whatever the technical language of the corrupt western controlled UN.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
SANAA, Yemen — Yemen's embattled president on Tuesday accused the U.S., his closest ally, of instigating the mounting protests against him, but the gambit failed to slow the momentum for his ouster.
Hundreds of thousands rallied in cities across Yemen against the government of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, in the largest of the protests of the past month, including one addressed by an influential firebrand cleric, a former ally of Saleh, whom the U.S. has linked to al-Qaida.
Saleh has been a weak but important U.S. ally in the fight against al-Qaida, accepting tens of millions of dollars in U.S. military and other aid and allowing American drone strikes on al-Qaida targets.
However, on Tuesday, Saleh seemed to be turning on Washington. In a speech to about 500 students and lecturers at Sanaa University, he claimed the U.S., along with Israel, is behind the protest movement.
"I am going to reveal a secret," he said. "There is an operations room in Tel Aviv with the aim of destabilizing the Arab world. The operations room is in Tel Aviv and run by the White House."
Saleh also alleged that opposition figures meet regularly with the U.S. ambassador in Sanaa. "Regrettably those (opposition figures) are sitting day and night with the American ambassador where they hand him reports and he gives them instructions," Saleh said.
The Obama administration rejected these claims. White House spokesman Jay Carney called on Saleh to focus on implementing the political reforms demanded by his people instead of "scapegoating."
The momentum against the president, who refuses to step down until elections in 2013, has kept growing since protests erupted a month ago – inspired by successful uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia. He has lost the support of key tribal chiefs and on Tuesday, opposition parties called their supporters into the streets for the first time. Crowds of tens of thousands each were reported in five areas of the country, including in Sanaa.
Saleh's government is widely seen as corrupt, with relatives of the president holding key positions in government and business. Grievances about the growing disparity between Yemen's poor – nearly half the population of some 23 million – and a small ruling clique have helped drive the protests. Yemen is the Arab world's poorest country.
Yemen has been the site of numerous anti-U.S. attacks, going back to the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Aden harbor, which killed 17 American sailors. Late last year, several CIA operatives were targeted in a failed bombing at a restaurant in a Sanaa suburb. Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula was also thought to be behind the attempted bombing of an American airliner landing in Detroit in 2009. Yemen President Says U.S., Israel Behind Unrest Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: SANAA, Yemen — Yemen's embattled president on Tuesday accused the U.S., his closest ally, of instigating the mounting protests against him, but the gambit failed to slow the momentum for his ouster.
Hundreds of thousands rallied in cities across Yemen against the government of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, in the largest of the protests of the past month, including one addressed by an influential firebrand cleric, a former ally of Saleh, whom the U.S. has linked to al-Qaida.
Saleh has been a weak but important U.S. ally in the fight against al-Qaida, accepting tens of millions of dollars in U.S. military and other aid and allowing American drone strikes on al-Qaida targets.
However, on Tuesday, Saleh seemed to be turning on Washington. In a speech to about 500 students and lecturers at Sanaa University, he claimed the U.S., along with Israel, is behind the protest movement.
"I am going to reveal a secret," he said. "There is an operations room in Tel Aviv with the aim of destabilizing the Arab world. The operations room is in Tel Aviv and run by the White House."
Saleh also alleged that opposition figures meet regularly with the U.S. ambassador in Sanaa. "Regrettably those (opposition figures) are sitting day and night with the American ambassador where they hand him reports and he gives them instructions," Saleh said.
The Obama administration rejected these claims. White House spokesman Jay Carney called on Saleh to focus on implementing the political reforms demanded by his people instead of "scapegoating."
The momentum against the president, who refuses to step down until elections in 2013, has kept growing since protests erupted a month ago – inspired by successful uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia. He has lost the support of key tribal chiefs and on Tuesday, opposition parties called their supporters into the streets for the first time. Crowds of tens of thousands each were reported in five areas of the country, including in Sanaa.
Saleh's government is widely seen as corrupt, with relatives of the president holding key positions in government and business. Grievances about the growing disparity between Yemen's poor – nearly half the population of some 23 million – and a small ruling clique have helped drive the protests. Yemen is the Arab world's poorest country.
Yemen has been the site of numerous anti-U.S. attacks, going back to the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Aden harbor, which killed 17 American sailors. Late last year, several CIA operatives were targeted in a failed bombing at a restaurant in a Sanaa suburb. Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula was also thought to be behind the attempted bombing of an American airliner landing in Detroit in 2009. Yemen President Says U.S., Israel Behind Unrest
Ali Abdullah Saleh has lied to his people and press in the past, as was revealed in a wikileak.
The U.S. has launched covert missile attacks on terrorist targets in Yemen. But in a meeting with Gen. David Petraeus, Yemeni president Ali Abdullah Saleh says "we'll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours." These air strikes killed several civilians, says Justin Elliott at Salon, and this revelation may yet "spark a backlash against Saleh."
He lied in the past.
I have a question.
You mentioned in another post something to the effect of “they don't know what they are getting themselves into with Jewish controlled Democracy”
Please elaborate and also give an example (name a country or two).
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The US.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: The same sources in Russia's military establishment say they are also monitoring the situation around Libya's oil pumping facilities.RT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/RTnewsRT on Twitter: http://twitter.com/RT_com
From experience I'd point out that FB and Twitter are possibly the least reliable sources out there.
Wrong again sweetheart. The report is from RT. Here: http://rt.com/
But besides, you just need to ask for pictures of Ghadafi's air raid and wanton destruction before your mind will tell you that something is not right about the entire air raid story. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It's not exactly Reuters though is it?
There is a video on that site I posted a link to showing the helicopters flying overhead, around and around, though no. I haven't seen an actual video of an aerial attack yet. But would you be hanging around taping it, or would you be running?
If I find one, will you eat your hat?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
there is no if...
For two weeks you guys been going on about how thouands have been killed in Libya. I posted you a link with spread sheet of dead Libyans, where and how they died. It came to 178 so far. Where are the thousand bodies?
Why the fake stories about "Black-Africans" mecernaries killing thousands of Libyans?
Why then did they lynch Black Libyan soldiers in Uniform and claim they were from "Black Africa"?
Then they said the Leader attacked with Helicopters, and when we asked for evidence, they ask me to wait and see if they will find one. So why did you raise the accusation when they were no evidence.
Then they said Tripoli had fallen, then they said the airforce had quit, then they said the army turned against him, they said he fled to Venezuela..etc..etc..
I accept that taken alone, these videos are not conclusive evidence. If you really want to nit pick, the only way you can know anything for sure is if you witness the event for yourself. But in the absence of a shred of evidence to support the conspiracy theory, I’m going with general consensus. These aren’t just stories featuring in the Western news after all. Al Jazeera has shown live coverage backing up all of the events, if you look back through the thread you’ll see Laura has been watching an Iranian channel’s coverage. Are you saying that these broadcasters are also in cahoots with Israel?
I look forward to seeing some solid evidence.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
There is no conspiracy theory. There is global geo-politics, socio-economics, megalomania and petty racism. Those run your modern world.
Libya is a small country with lots of wealth, like Kuwait. Since Ghadafi it refused to be a client state so the west is not exploiting that wealth as it would love to.
Then China comes into the picture hungry for natural resources.
So the West decides to re-assert itself and demonstrate its power of shock and awe, as it recolonizes Libya. The West is working psyche-ops on the so-called Arab world (also known as Eastern Ethiopia) right now.
Ghadafi will make a good scape goat and a wonderful smoke screen.
Open your eyes, Monkey, and see.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
I accept that taken alone, these videos are not conclusive evidence. If you really want to nit pick, the only way you can know anything for sure is if you witness the event for yourself. But in the absence of a shred of evidence to support the conspiracy theory, I’m going with general consensus. These aren’t just stories featuring in the Western news after all. Al Jazeera has shown live coverage backing up all of the events, if you look back through the thread you’ll see Laura has been watching an Iranian channel’s coverage. Are you saying that these broadcasters are also in cahoots with Israel?
I look forward to seeing some solid evidence.
If these are the evidence you rely on then you are truly pathetic Monkey.
You show me mocked up pictures of brutalized Africans as proof of your mecernary slurs and false accusations, as well as subliminal racism? Then a Youtube picture of an opposition actor speaking Arabic is further proof?
Worse, you have sublimated racism embedded in those pictures and for you to have accepted them as proof of a false rumour confirms the inner state of your consciousness or should I say unconsciousness?
You show me so-called mass graves being dug, but where are the bodies? Where are the funerals? Where are the mourners?
And a helicopter flying around in the sky is proof of your devestating air-strikes on Libyan protesters? Where are pictures of the air-strikes? Where are the satellite images?
Monkey, I fear for your desperation. It is not necessary here, as all you have to do is accept reason and truth, and love your fellow humanity with sincerity. This heals many emotional, psychological and spiritual illnesses, whether mas media induced or not.
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^Exiile
Air strikes are just imagination and follow on propaganda of your western leaders. They lie, you guys slurp.
NO AIRSTRIKES EVER HAPPENED!
Read:
TodayThe reports of Libya mobilizing its air force against its own people spread quickly around the world. However, Russia's military chiefs say they have been monitoring from space -- and the pictures tell a different story. According to Al Jazeera and BBC, on February 22 Libyan government inflicted airstrikes on Benghazi -- the country's largest city -- and on the capital Tripoli. However, the Russian military, monitoring the unrest via satellite from the very beginning, says nothing of the sort was going on on the ground. At this point, the Russian military is saying that, as far as they are concerned, the attacks some media were reporting have never occurred. The same sources in Russia's military establishment say they are also monitoring the situation around Libya's oil pumping facilities.RT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/RTnewsRT on Twitter: http://twitter.com/RT_com
That's what Saif and his father keep telling the world. Yet there are Libyan pilots (3 so far) that explicitly said they were ordered to bomb civilian areas. 2 Pilots defected to Malta, 1 ejected outside of Libya. Then there are eye witness reports that have said that they were bombed. Objectively, which is more compelling? Saif and Muammar Ghadaffi or Libyan pilots and eyewitnesses.
The truth will come out.
The Russian miltary satellite observing the situation tells you that there had been no air strikes.
The United States satellites would have flashed images of air strikes all over the world if there had been any.
The western journalists crawling in and out of Benghazi, and Tobruk would have been showing you pictures of dead bodies and bombed out buildings if they had any to report.
The people of Benghazi would have been posting credible pictures and videos of bombed out neighbourhoods on Youtube, if such did happen.
Yet, all you have to offer me is a lame response, about how some 3 cowardly soldiers who fled from duty front are telling the world their fantasies and wishful thoughts?
And another lame response of eye witnesses in this age of Youtube and monitoring space satellite?
Come on, boy, I thought you had better stuff in you than that... LOL!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
LOL! Exiled, please stay put. Don't go back home, your country will do just fine without you.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: You show me mocked up pictures of brutalized Africans as proof of your mecernary slurs and false accusations, as well as subliminal racism? Then a Youtube picture of an opposition actor speaking Arabic is further proof?
And your evidence is... where?
This isn't the only evidence I rely on, Lion. Again, please explain to me why you think Al Jazeera and the Iranian channels would be in on the plot? As for Russia allegedly disputing the air strikes, where is your evidence on that? And I don't mean some kookie conspiracy theory forum. Why would Russia not be coming out and saying this? Why indeed would they have passed the UN resolution?
Doesn't add up. I'm happy to keep an open mind but would like to see some form of evidence to the contrary rather than just theoretical clap trap.
Monkey!
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Again, any donations from non-conspiracy theorists would be gratefully received.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ LOL, What does that have to do with anything, how is "Conspiracy" relevant to a bunch of Lybians Chanting "We Are Arabs"??
Did the Real news somehow pay a mass group of Lybians to Sing "We Are Arabs"??
And I guess CNN and the other channels you are getting your info from is WAYYYY more reliable than Real News Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
The media, in general, is well known for taking statements out of context. Such as Libyans. Chanting we are Arabs.
No real evidence then? No statements in the general media from the Russians denying the Libyan airstrikes? If not, why not?
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ LOL, You still have not explained what the Real News has to do with a bunch of Arabs Claiming their Heritage??
If Blacks were Shouting "We are Negros" or We Are Black and Proud etc, would you question the validity of the News organization??
So called Native Lybians..."Hold your head up high, "WE ARE ARABS[/b] Chanting to their Arab brothers in Egypt.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I'll be honest with you Jari, once I'd ascertained what the source was, I didn't even watch the video Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ Yeah because CNN and BBC and RT are much more suited for your mindset.
So called Native Lybians...
"Hold your head up High, We Are Arabs"
The Continued Oppression of Africans at the hands of Arab Invaders.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
That's it? Still nothing? You guys... This is a pretty poor attempt at backing up something you're all convinced is "fact".
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
ptemples- All this talk of a “no-fly zone” over Libya is well and good. But after hearing Gadaffi blab today, I think we need a “no bullsh*t zone.” Twitter - seconds ago ahaha hehehe Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
For all the Libyans out there, be prepared to be at war with the NATO. The foreign "black African" troops were just a beginning.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
^^^^ Its amazing how people buy into propaganda espoused by the Media...
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Its amazing how people buy into propaganda espoused by the Media...
Frankly, I get so tired of seeing this worn out phrase. Instead, why don't you publish YOUR list of "credible media sources" and let's see where YOU get your info from.
Or do you magically transport yourself around Libya and gather it yourself? Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Two US warships move closer to Libya via Suez Canal
Isn't America's sudden interest in Libya just amazing???
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Arab League Rejecst Foreign Intervention in Libya
Wednesday, 02 March 2011 16:23
"Arab foreign ministers rejected any foreign military intervention to end the political crisis in Libya CAIRO – Amid reports of western troop redeployments around Libya, Arab foreign ministers rejected Wednesday, March 2, any foreign military intervention to end the political crisis in the oil-rich country.
Arabs confirmed their "desire for no foreign intervention" in Libya, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari said in opening remarks to an Arab ministerial meeting in Cairo, Reuters reported.
The meeting, attended by foreign ministers and representatives of the 22 Arab League member-states, focused on the unrest in Libya where fighting between loyalists and opponents of Muammar Gaddafi has reportedly killed about 2,000 people..."
Libya: Arab Countries Threaten No-Fly Zone The Arab League has said it could enforce a military no-fly zone over Libya if leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi allows his own people to suffer further bloodshed.
A.) Russia: No Air Strikes in Libya B.) Qadaffi: We Only Bomb Arms Depot C.) Witnesses, Media, Libyan Pilots: Air Strikes In Cities
Ummmmmmm. C, Thank You Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: For $10,000 ES Dollars, Pick The Right Answer.
A.) Russia: No Air Strikes in Libya B.) Qadaffi: We Only Bomb Arms Depot C.) Witnesses, Media, Libyan Pilots: Air Strikes In Cities
Ummmmmmm. C, Thank You
Exiiled, where you been? They've brought fresh recruits! Laura and me can't hold them back much longer! Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Still around. Things have been a little lull in Libya, until the failed attack on Brega yesterday.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"a little lull". LOL Given media reports of "uprising" and the spreading of the "revolution" I thought the "cornered" Qaddafi would have been overthrown by now.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
About the Russians allegedly denying the attacks took place... There seems to be no credible evidence of this. If you Google it, it just brings up a bunch of conspiracy sites. I might have bought that it was Western propaganda, but doesn't it seem logical that some credible news agency, somewhere on the globe, would have chosen to cover this story?
I don't see any credible evidence to support the notion that Russia said this in the first place. I see that they voted against a no fly zone, but that was all. They agreed to the imposition of sanctions. Why would they do this without good reason?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: For $10,000 ES Dollars, Pick The Right Answer.
A.) Russia: No Air Strikes in Libya B.) Qadaffi: We Only Bomb Arms Depot C.) Witnesses, Media, Libyan Pilots: Air Strikes In Cities
Ummmmmmm. C, Thank You
Exiiled, where you been? They've brought fresh recruits! Laura and me can't hold them back much longer!
*dragging Monkey back into the tank zooming off to Tripoli*! It's your turn to drive Monkey!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
**considers the pausibility of tanks being driven by monkeys... monkey military academies... the girl's got something here**
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The issue is not whether or not there were air strikes. Of course there were air strikes the question is was there an attack on unarmed civilians. No evidence of massacred unarmed civilians from air strikes. In fact the [original] propaganda line, that this is a peaceful uprising, has been put to rest. We have western media personalities riding around with the terrorists in the east.
"setting up no fly zones essentially means war." - sec. gates quoted on cnn. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The issue is not whether or not there were air strikes. Of course there were air strikes the question is was there an attack on unarmed civilians. No evidence of massacred unarmed civilians from air strikes.
On that I agree. It did seem from that one video like the helicopter was opening fire on people. The sound certainly seemed to be travelling in the same direction. But it could have been gunfire from a moving car - maybe it wasn't there at all. That's the only video purporting to show an aerial attack that I've seen and yes, far from conclusive.
It has been widely reported, and I'd say those pilots defecting in Malta was a good indication, but no. I've seen no actual proof - certainly no bomb damage as yet.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Qadaffi is as honest about bombing his cities as he is about “mercenaries.”
"While most of these governments have denied their nationals are fighting as mercenaries in Libya, Mali officials have confirmed hundreds of young Tuaregs from Mali and Niger have been recruited by Kadhafi.
Abdou Salam Ag Assalat, president of the Regional Assembly of Kidal said young people were “going in masses (to Libya).”He said regional authorities “are trying to dissuade them” from leaving, particularly ex-rebels, but that it was not easy as there were “dollars and weapons” waiting for them."
Qadaffi made reporters wait 4 days before he allowed them into Triopli, after there was outrage of witness accounts of bombing in Tripoli.
Doctors and nurses in Tripoli hospitals report that “Qadaffi security men” took corpses from hospitals. Witnesses said “Qadaffi men” took dead people from streets (not ambulances but Qadaffi men). There is even a video of Qadaffi men in a land cruiser picking up a dead body and putting it in the back of the SUV.
Qadaffi keeps telling the world there are only a few deaths. Here are some that are youtube, there are many more. These are just the ones on youtube (and there are more on youtube as well), You know how many confirmed dead in Egypt protests – 320. You know how many on youtube? Less than a dozen!
We can only guess how many Libyan are dead. But there will be justice and the world will know one day.
I'm unsure about the bombing civilians bit. I've seen it reported that there were aerial attacks with gunfire on civilians, but bombing, I don't know. If they'd dropped bombs over Tripoli there would be buildings flattened. You could clean up the bodies but you couldn't rebuild the buildings overnight for the journalists to inspect.
Saying that though, if you were in a crowd, first you saw a plane go over then you heard blasts you'd automatically think it was that. But they were firing anti aircraft weaponry into the crowds. There IS evidence of that.
The bombing thing I'm not sure about. Part of me thinks the western media might have picked up on aerial attack and just assumed bombs not bullets.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
From that catalogue, it would seem he's had this planned for some time. Weaken the official army whilst building up a personal army of your own for a rainy day. He's mad but I wouldn't say he was stupid.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I'm unsure about the bombing civilians bit. I've seen it reported that there were aerial attacks with gunfire on civilians, but bombing, I don't know. If they'd dropped bombs over Tripoli there would be buildings flattened. You could clean up the bodies but you couldn't rebuild the buildings overnight for the journalists to inspect.
Saying that though, if you were in a crowd, first you saw a plane go over then you heard blasts you'd automatically think it was that. But they were firing anti aircraft weaponry into the crowds. There IS evidence of that.
The bombing thing I'm not sure about. Part of me thinks the western media might have picked up on aerial attack and just assumed bombs not bullets.
He could have used naplam, as it burns but does not destroy structures. There were specfic witness accounts of airplane attacks on specif streets in Tripoli.
Qadaffi is killer, and keep in mind what triggered this revolution. It was over the MURDER of 1200 prisoners 1996 at Abu Slim prison. The families wanted to be compensated and they hired a lawyer. The lawyer was arrested Feb 15, and a revolution ensued.
You know what the prisoners were complaining about? They wanted more food, and wanted the torture to stop.
I'll nver believe anything that comes out of Qadaffi or Saif's mouths. They lied about mercenaries, they lied about "few deaths", they lied about "few demonstartors", the CNN video had practically all of Benghazi out in the street.
Well, to my mind he's capable of anything now that he's cornered. I don't see him wanting to drop bombs though - not until the very last stand. I don't think he would want to damage his cities at this point. Seriously, I mean it. I think the guy is so deluded he still thinks he can ride it out - just wipe out all of the trouble makers, sweep their bodies away and everything will just go back to normal. I don't think he appreciates how many he's up against - like Mubarak in a way. It's got to be one heck of a thing to get your head around. For forty years you're the big cheese, then poof, one day it's all over.
To be honest, I'm struggling to get my head around quite what a whacko he is. I don't know whether Saif's adled too or just evil, probably the latter me thinks.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Well, to my mind he's capable of anything now that he's cornered. I don't see him wanting to drop bombs though - not until the very last stand. I don't think he would want to damage his cities at this point. Seriously, I mean it. I think the guy is so deluded he still thinks he can ride it out - just wipe out all of the trouble makers, sweep their bodies away and everything will just go back to normal. I don't think he appreciates how many he's up against - like Mubarak in a way. It's got to be one heck of a thing to get your head around. For forty years you're the big cheese, then poof, one day it's all over.
To be honest, I'm struggling to get my head around quite what a whacko he is. I don't know whether Saif's adled too or just evil, probably the latter me thinks.
This is one of the most puzzling things. If he doesn't know he's going down, at least his children do. Most of them have PhDs, at least Saif and Khamis do. Ayesha is an international lawyer, there is a lot of intelligence there.
How do they think this will play out?! It's not bravery at all, it's lunacy, it would be bravery if they didn't oblige their people to die for them. Especially the young dumb ones who he's armed the past few days. Or the poor who he bribed with money. Seriously pack it up, take a billion or two, and go hang out with Mugabe or Chavez.
Khamis and Saif are going to end up on the front page just like Oday and Qusay.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Two US warships move closer to Libya via Suez Canal
Isn't America's sudden interest in Libya just amazing???
Old News! But, if you want to be accurate, so do about 6 or 7 other countries.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It's exactly the same mindset as Mubarak. Maybe this is some kind of physiological manifestation affecting dictators who've been in power for umpteen decades. Let's take a look at the symptoms. A general aversion to "truth", be it accepting or telling it, is clearly present in both patients. I've also noted a pathological fear of the words "no" and "go". There's also the propensity for long meandering speeches, though in Gaddafi's case, clearly, this is much more severe. Well, I think that's conclusive. They've got despot syndrome. And apparently it's catching.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
LOL..Exiiled your propaganda machine is working over time.. LOL!
Now its bombing civilians, now it is napalm...
Put down that pipe you smoking! LOL!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: TELL IT TO THE BITCHES ALI SALEH, TELL IT LIKE IT IS:
Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, launched an attack on Barack Obama, saying: "Every day we hear a statement from Obama saying: 'Egypt you can't do this, Tunisia don't do that.' What do you have to do with Egypt? Or with Oman? ... Are you president of the United States, or president of the world?"
In his speech, at Sana'a University, he claimed that "there is an operations room in Tel Aviv with the aim of destabilizing the Arab world" and that it is "run by the White House
An hour after the president's speech, tens of thousands of protesters marched to the university, joined for the first time by opposition parties. Sheik Abdul-Majid al-Zindani, considered by the US to be linked to the al-Qaida terror network, was present at the gathering.
WHATZ UP WITH THE NEW ALLIANCE BETWEEN THE US, THEIR SPONSORED ROACHS AND THUG PROTESTERS, AND AL QAEEDA MUSLIM MILITANTS???
LOL Did you by chance catch his apology to Israel and the US yesterday? Right on big guy...LOOOL
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
Exiiled, where you been? They've brought fresh recruits! Laura and me can't hold them back much longer!
Names? and recruit for what?
On the no-fly zone, and its supporters, with direct quotes in some cases...
Germany:
Guido Westerwelle - supporter...
"The impression that this is about military intervention must not emerge under any circumstances."
France:
Courtesy of PTI,
The French also announced that they would back a possible military intervention with Nato partners.
"French Foreign Minister Michele Alliot-Marie, speaking in an interview on France Info radio, said the sanctions proposal doesn’t mention a no-fly zone over Libya, though"
"it’s not ruled out in the future."
USA:
Jay Carney - supporter...
"The fact that the no-fly idea is complex does not mean it is not on the table"
"We are actively considering a variety of options. We have not ruled any options out."
Hillary Clinton - supporter...
"A no-fly zone is an option we are actively considering. I discussed it today with allies and partners."
John McCain - supporter...
"Of course we have to have a no-fly zone"
"We are spending over $500 billion, not counting Iraq and Afghanistan, on our nation’s defense. Don’t tell me we can’t do a no-fly zone over Tripoli."
Britain:
Prime Minister David Cameron - supporter...
"If Gaddafi uses military force against his own people, the world cannot stand by. That is why we should be looking at a no-fly zone."
Courtesy of PTI,
"Cameron also said Gaddafi's departure was Britain's "highest priority", adding: "If helping the opposition would somehow bring that about, it is certainly something we should be considering."
Ex-Prime Minister, John Major - supporter
"ideally, a UN resolution would be put in place for a no-fly zone, but this ‘isn't absolutely necessary’ in law and order, and a collection of nations could take the decision themselves."
Libya:
Mustapha Gheriani - supporter...
"We can't protect ourselves at the moment from tanks and aircraft, let alone organise a march on Tripoli to topple Gaddafi."
"If there are just a few air strikes, his loyalists will leave him and his time will be numbered in hours. Otherwise he could survive for a long time and there could be terrible bloodshed."
Notes from various sources about possible military action in Libya; courtesy of Financial Times...
"Erdogan’s comments suggest it could be difficult for a Western military operation to be conducted under NATO auspices. NATO tends to take decisions on military action by consensus. If it is unable to reach this consensus, the US and UK may be forced to mount a no-fly zone using an informal coalition of willing states."
Even if other countries in NATO did not want to get on board, the USA and Britain, with another "coalition of the willing" could still proceed with military action.
Courtesy of PTI...
The Pentagon announced that the Americans had begun "repositioning forces" around Libya to provide "flexibility". It is believed to be considering moving a US aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise, from the Red Sea into the Mediterranean to take up a position off Libya. The USS Kearsage, an amphibious assault ship, could also be redeployed.
"Sources said Gen Richards' military options paper will also look at British ground operations."
Again, courtesy of PTI...
The French also announced that they would back a possible military intervention with Nato partners.
UN Security Council non-supporters:
Russia and China have not supported the no-fly zone policy for Libya, but neither are part of NATO either. The USA's and UK's preparedness to circumvent diplomatic opposition to possible military invention has already been highlighted above, and this goes for possible disunity of NATO members over the matter.
Ramifications:
If US-European military intervention comes to fruition -- starting with a no-fly zone, which is quite likely, given US-European oil assets/interests--including the impact this Libyan conflict is having on international oil prices--in the country, Gaddafi's "black African" mercenaries would not be the only foreign troops on Libyan ground when all is said and done!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Is there a point in there somewhere, fighting to get out?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Yes, can you read?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Text? Yes.
Minds? No.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: TELL IT TO THE BITCHES ALI SALEH, TELL IT LIKE IT IS:
Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, launched an attack on Barack Obama, saying: "Every day we hear a statement from Obama saying: 'Egypt you can't do this, Tunisia don't do that.' What do you have to do with Egypt? Or with Oman? ... Are you president of the United States, or president of the world?"
In his speech, at Sana'a University, he claimed that "there is an operations room in Tel Aviv with the aim of destabilizing the Arab world" and that it is "run by the White House
An hour after the president's speech, tens of thousands of protesters marched to the university, joined for the first time by opposition parties. Sheik Abdul-Majid al-Zindani, considered by the US to be linked to the al-Qaida terror network, was present at the gathering.
WHATZ UP WITH THE NEW ALLIANCE BETWEEN THE US, THEIR SPONSORED ROACHS AND THUG PROTESTERS, AND AL QAEEDA MUSLIM MILITANTS???
LOL Did you by chance catch his apology to Israel and the US yesterday? Right on big guy...LOOOL
No I did not but I would not be too surprised. Ali Saleh is a bitch himself whoring for the United States.
This fight between him and his masters is like a gay marital dispute. His lovers don't want him anymore and he is unwilling to accept that reality. Ever seen two gay men fight? Wao..something to see.
Did you catch the number of people dead so far in Yemen protest this week?
In the meantime, our boy Ghadafi has beaten those rebel roaches into a corner. No more talk of conquering Tripoli, eh? They are now begging for American aircover...lol! CIA roaches, all of them Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Text? Yes.
Minds? No.
That's what the text is there for, and not a "Mind": for you to read. Do you know the difference between a text and "a mind"?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well, for me, if there was a point there, it kind of got lost in the 500 word essay of facts we knew 6 pages back...
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
For you, there is no point there, because you are either too lazy to read simple texts and/or just cannot read.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ok. So you see this as a potential US/UK led assault against Libya? I agree - I can see this happening too. Their stances from the very beginning were more robust. They didn't actually expect China and Russia to agree to pass the sanctions at one point.
Having said that though, these kidnapped soldiers from the Netherlands could throw a whole new spanner in the works.
So do you think it's all about oil? I disagree. When we went into Kosovo, where was the oil there?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Based on words coming out of the horses mouth, I see no reason to assume that they are joking about taking possible military action in Libya. And no, the U.S. administration for example was not initially vocal about military intervention, and seemed to be hoping that the uprising would be contained by the Libyan regime. When they noticed that the situation was spinning out of control, and the corporate media and talking heads suggesting tougher stance on Gaddafi, that's when there was a sudden change in the tone of the U.S. administration.
I already pointed out that it is more than oil, but oil interests are a central element in any decision to take military action. The increase in oil prices because of the Libyan conflict, has certainly weighed in on the minds of US-European ruling and business circles. There is also that issue of containing this "revolution" that seems to be spreading from Northern Africa to the Arabian plate.
Just because the situation specific to Kosovo and Libya are not the same, doesn't mean that some comparisons can't be drawn between them, in terms of any lead up to military intervention, including the enforcement of no-fly zone, capturing the head of country, and justifications about going in militarily strictly on "humanitarian" grounds. Heck, these comparisons have been drawn by figures within the ruling circles themselves.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't see how outside intervention will help oil prices any though, TBH. It isn't a sudden shortage that's causing the price to rise, but fear over the current situation. If the outside did intervene and there was a swift conclusion to all the problems, then that's one thing. But how likely is that to occur? What would it do to oil prices if Libya turned into Iraq? Add to that that the Arab League along with the leaders of the protestors themselves are telling us they want no outside intervention... going in there now would hardly stabilise the oil market.
What else do you think it's about?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
An outside intervention is needed to quell the rising trend of oil prices. Of course, that's not going to happen overnight, but the sooner the Libyan conflict can be brought under control, the better. That is just one element of the aim of intervening military; this has been mentioned going twice now. There is also a need to contain the spread of Uprisings and contain their influence elsewhere. Furthermore, should the Libyan regime collapse, due defections and relentless uprisings, there is a need to control the territory until some US-European friendly administration is put in place: in other words, to temporarily fill the power vacuum until a "desirable" administration is set up.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
But didn't they try that in Iraq and Afghanistan? Wasn't that precisely Bush and Blair's undoing?
There was talk a few days ago of the West providing the pro democracy people with arms rather than troops.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Laura, I can't help but notice that you have nothing in your last post but big goggle-eyed gremlin with rolling eyes; is that meant to convey that this is how you look in person, or was there something comprehensible you were meaning to say about the ongoing discussion? Help me out here.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Hillary Clinton says U.S. is trying to avoid perception of an oil grab in Libya
Monkey, come again: They didn't try the no-fly zone in Iraq? Are you sure about that?...Or yet, are you saying that they didn't occupy Iraq?
Afghanistan is another issue. Most people in the so-called west were not even mindful of stuff going on in Afghanistan until the events of 9/11.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Laura, I can't help but notice that you have nothing in your last post but big goggle-eyed gremlin with rolling eyes; is that meant to convey that this is how you look in person, or was there something comprehensible you were meaning to say about the ongoing discussion? Help me out here.
For you, there is no point , because you are either too stupid to comprehend a sarcastic expression to your arrogance or else so self absorbed it went right over your head.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Noo. I'm saying it didn't work. It's still a mess now and will be for the foreseeable.
Afghanistan was not about oil. It was about trying to impose a western-friendly government and where did that get them? Pushed the problem into their neighbour, Pakistan, who were western friendly. Now because he was a little too friendly with the US Musharraf lost his seat only to be replaced by Mr 10% and it's all gone to hell in a handcart.
Iraq was a royal pig's ear too. I don't know how much mud stuck to Bush after those little escapades, but at least Blair had the sense to call it a day before the enquiries started up.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Laurass, it's funny you have to call anyone here stupid, consider you were too much of a knucklehead to put your reaction into words, like human beings normally do, rather than some cartoon. How old are you? Do you watch too much loony tunes; is that why you cannot write your reaction in words like grown ups do?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [QB] Laurass
You change my name to this, and then ask MY age? ROFL....carry on kid Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Monkey, what do you mean the no-fly zone policy in Iraq didn't work? It's goal was primarily to paralyze whatever remained of Iraq's air-defense system, and secondarily, other strategic targets within reach of that operation.
You are all over the place, coming up with claims like: Afghanistan is not about oil, Kosovo is not about oil, and on and on. Who ever gave you the idea that the situations have to be exactly the same or even remotely the same, in order for military intervention to be considered by the US and members of its NATO allies?
Look, the US and its European counterparts are taking into account the possible outcomes of militarily intervening in Libya, which is why there have been pro and con debates within the ruling circles of these countries. At least some of these folks realize that they may well get bogged down in the region, when the intent was to otherwise quickly wrap up Gaddafi's tenure in power, stamp out these uprisings before their influence can be felt anywhere further than they already have, and protect their oil interests or assets. They've noticed that the uprisings in northern Africa has even had some influence in the U.S. - some comparisons have been drawn within the U.S. media between what's going on in Wisconsin, and now about to take place in Ohio as well, with situations that occurred in Egypt.
BUT, if these situation goes on any longer, it is safe to envision that the U.S. and its European counterparts will seek to intervene militarily...preferably under the "humanitarian" banner via UN mandate. They will not tolerate ever rising oil prises, and see these "revolutions" go unabated; they have strategic military bases, oil and business interests in many of the Gulf region. Libya is reputed to have better-quality crude oil than say, Saudi Arabia, and has the largest reserves of this type.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Laurass, I am now fully convinced that you are not even old enough to know what your age is, as you evaded the simple question you were asked about your age due to your very odd behavior. Human beings, with fully functioning brains, write their reactions, not cut & paste cartoons. I'll bet I can even find someone in a mental asylum who can express their reaction in words.
Ps: LaurASS, when you converse with people in person, do you hold up a sign of a cartoon on a cardboard to give them an idea of how you feel about a topic? LOL.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Laurass, I am now fully convinced that you not even old enough to know what your age is, as you evaded the simple question you were asked about your age due to your very odd behavior. Human beings, with fully functioning brains, write their reactions, not cute & paste cartoons. I'll bet I can even find someone in a mental asylum who can express their reaction in words.
Ahahahahaha you are so EASY to rile when you are called out for your rudeness.ROFL Silly boy
The topic is Libya and I won't be side tracked by your rudeness and immaturity again. Back to topic if you don't mind.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Laurass, the silly whore who never cleans herself after selling herself to clients for a measly penny, answer this:
When mammy does not give you your Quaker oat, do you scribble [assuming you are even intellectually fit to scribble nonsense or do chicken scratches] a frowning bubble-face on sticky pad and hold it up for you mammy to see, just to let her know that you are hungry?
LaurASS, you truly have an ASS for a brain. Now you want to join in the topic that was actually going on, when you decided to "side track" it with some empty-headed loony tune cartoon.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Laurass, do you even clean your butt after you poop? I wonder, considering that you can't react to an intelligent conversation in words like normal people do.
I chime in on a topic, like any grown up is free and expected to do in a forum, and laurass brands this as being rude and arrogant. Yet laurass seems to think putting up nothing else but a single goggle-eyed cartoon constitutes "maturity", "intellectual eloquence" and humility. LOL. Where do you live? In a trailer can?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: They will not tolerate ever rising oil prises, and see these "revolutions" go unabated;
This was my point. Afghanistan and Kosovo weren't about oil. Everyone gets on the oil bandwagon but I don't think it necessarily follows. I believe they had no ulterior motive for entering Kosovo and that it was the right thing to do. Afghanistan, yup, definitely wasn't to protect the Afghans from the Taliban regime - seeing as though they put them there in the first place - but it wasn't about oil.
The west getting involved in Libya could have entirely the opposite effect on oil prices. It could destabilise them from our point of view completely if they go in like a bull in a China shop rubbing the Arab League up the wrong way. When they talk, we need to be listening - I think we are, but we'll see.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Its amazing how people buy into propaganda espoused by the Media...
Frankly, I get so tired of seeing this worn out phrase. Instead, why don't you publish YOUR list of "credible media sources" and let's see where YOU get your info from.
Or do you magically transport yourself around Libya and gather it yourself?
Im not the one jumping on band wagons and forming conclusions based off secondary hear-say, am I...? Why is the Media suddenly claiming the Lybians want the U.S to invade and oust Gadaffi?? Did you not see the signs in the clip I posted where the Lybians made it clear they DON'T want help??
Who are supposed to believe??
BTW, I don't see your arse in Lybia either Miss thang so your opinion is about as valid as mine.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Monkey, I don't get your point other than to constantly mix up the points I relayed to. For instance, I'm not sure from where you keep reading this notion that the geopolitics specific to the motivations behind militarily getting involved in Libya has to be one and same as those for either Kosovo and Afghanistan. Perhaps you might want to chime in on that.
Other than the comparisons drawn around the "humanitarian" pretext used to justify military intervention, I don't get from where you come up with the idea that the underlying motives are indistinguishable.
I've produced direct quotes from the powers that be, which you claim to have finally read, that question any "humanitarian" pretext for getting militarily involved. In addition to this, I gave you the specifics of what is the driver behind a potential military intervention. You offer no counterpoints to this, other than your "belief" that it was because of so and so reason. You also refused to grasp the point made about ruling circles in the would-be participant countries in any military intervention of being conflicted about such a move, because these will involve the same countries who are already militarily preoccupied with Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, and so forth, and hence, might find their military assets stretched too thin, if things don't go well in any military intervention in Libya.
I have to strongly emphasize to you the reasons for going into Afghanistan is not the same as that of Libya, albeit *some* superficial parallels can be drawn. In this case, it concerns oil: Going into Afghanistan has more to do with oil interests than you think. 1) It was to serve as an important premise for oil pipelines going into the Indian Ocean. That's a central factor, but not the only factor for invading Afghanistan. 2) To route out the Taliban who were not corporative about proposed oil pipeline constructions, and to add salt to injury, harbored public enemy -- Bin laden, 3)provide the U.S. with more military bases. The US is littering the region with military bases, and one of the major intentions of doing this is to effectively encircle China with military bases...China is perceived as a rising major economic player, which is seen as being accommodated by growing hunger for more or less the same resources that the U.S. and the Europeans are competing for, in more or less the same regions.
Take a cue from regular media sources, like this piece from APF:
Oil prices rose as Libya's violence sparked global supply jitters, with Brent North Sea crude for delivery in April ending in London at $115.42 a barrel, a sharp gain of $3.62 from Monday's close.
New York's light sweet crude for April, known as West Texas Intermediate (WTI), leapt $2.66 to close at $99.63 a barrel
You argue that going into Libya militarily will not help with the oil prices. Well, as far as ruling circles in the U.S. and Europe are concerned, civil unrest in Libya that keeps the trend of high oil prices for any considerable of time, is not an option either. Some of these countries have oil investments and lucrative slices of Libya's oil business pie; each of those countries would want to also see to it that these assets are secured under any new regime set up in Libya, in a post-Gaddafi scenario.
The article also also points out:
Any intervention beyond humanitarian assistance would have to take into account the effect on the US-led war effort in Afghanistan and likely hostile perceptions in the region of US military action.
It is interesting that the article should mention anything about an intervention beyond "humanitarian" intentions, don't you think? It recalls something to effect of this quote, that I posted earlier:
"the impression that this is about military intervention must not emerge under any circumstances." - Guido Westerwelle
The article points out what I had noted about ruling circles being kind'a conflicted about direct military intervention, and for reasons I had already stated...
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Libya was at a crossroads in its history and "the stakes are high."
"In the years ahead, Libya could become a peaceful democracy, or it could face protracted civil war" and descend into chaos, she told the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
"We also have to think about frankly the use of the US military in another country in the Middle East," said Gates, a former director of the Central Intelligence Agency.
Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said all options would be examined. But he too expressed caution about a potential Libya no-fly zone.
"It's an extraordinarily complex operation to set up," Mullen said.
The admiral agreed with an earlier assessment by the head of US Central Command, General James Mattis, that enforcing a no-fly zone would first require bombing Libyan radar and missile defences.
New French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe ruled out military action without a clear UN mandate and said NATO intervention in Libya might be "extremely counter-productive" in the eyes of Arab public opinion."
"And the kinds of options that have been talked about in the press and elsewhere also have their own consequences and second and third order effects, so they need to be considered very carefully," he said at a news conference with the US military's top officer, Admiral Mike Mullen."
Despite this cautionary approach and conflict within the discourse of ruling circles, mainly on tactical grounds rather than principle, the preferred course of action is still military action...
But British Foreign Secretary William Hague said a no-fly zone did not necessarily require UN approval, telling the BBC "there have been occasions in the past when such a no-fly zone has had clear, legal, international justification even without a Security Council resolution."
"UN support looks unlikely after Russia, one of France and Britain's partners in the Security Council, hinted it would veto any resolution.
Even so, British UN envoy Mark Lyall Grant said new Security Council action against Libya, including a no-fly zone, is possible."
Which also goes back to the point I made earlier about the US and Britain going it alone, as a means to circumvent any Security Council vetoes.
On Kosovo: While the rudimentary importance of Yugoslavia lied with its reserves of gold, lead, silver, cadmium, zinc, take a good guess which vital region is near it? And why is stabilized Kosovo necessary for this?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Well, you know, I think it's all done with the best of intentions. Actually I don't see anything being 'done' come to think of it. So I'll have to agree to disagree.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Then you must be deluded, because you are entertaining your "beliefs" in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I would ask what evidence but... nah.
I think it's best to judge a situation by what you see rather than what you hear. I see a nutter killing his own people - lots and lots of people. Anyone who doubts how many dead there are now - just go look on youtube, there must be a thousand faces there alone. I see someone using mercenaries. Yes, mercenaries - lots of them. I saw explosions on the TV today so that blows my idea about him not using bombs out of the water - sorry to have to admit that. I see a humanitarian disaster on the borders with babies spending night after night in the cold. I see umpteen human rights abuses, not to mention hostile action against foreign governments merely trying to repatriate their citizens. I see more than enough reason for NATO going in but they are holding back, which I feel is sensible. I see no reason for criticism here.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
I would ask you to read again, and provide your counter evidence, instead of lazily saying you have no clue.
What we "heard" here does NOT come from third party sources, it comes right from the horses' mouths! It would be mighty clumsy of anyone, who hasn't been living under a rock and is a grown up with a fully functioning brain, to take these primary words as mere jokes, and dismiss them out of hand.
This is all we get from people like you, I "belief", I "feel" and so on. While you are hung up on approaching the matter purely from an emotional standpoint, the rest of us approach the matter from an objective angle, and see it for what it is.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ah enough with the "people like" me baloney. Wait and see. If you're right, you're right - I'm not to big to admit when I'm wrong.
There's nothing objective about your angle, whatsoever. It's totally skewed, just like mine.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Figures. A white flag under the banner of "nothing being objective", on something that you did not bother to counter, replete with primary sources and articles. Judging from your voodoo-style of debating, you must be a novice to forum settings. You can rely on witch craft mentality to approach real world affairs. If you are ready to call back to planet earth, just let me know when you are ready to provide a counter case, rather than cowardice cloaked in fancy words that are beyond the scope of your understanding.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I'm not really into online battles with fantasists, sorry. You stated your beliefs and followed up with a bunch of quotations with no bridge between the two. Quotes from Yahoo News I might add. As for my diction, pah - I just don't have the heart to come at you with a "counter case" on that one. Don't want to go smashing down your delusions of grandiosity.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Laurass, the silly whore who never cleans herself after selling herself to clients for a measly penny, answer this:
You know, if I'd even bothered to read this post, I could have spared myself that painfully dull, drab and truly awful ensuing 1,000 word post of yours, not to mention the accompanying, utterly overwhelming urge, to swallow my own tongue. I have lost five minutes of my life on that nonsense. Five minutes I will never get back again.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Probably.
Conversation closed.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
You must really be a monkey, who managed to escape from a zoo cage and randomly tap away at the facility's computer. Dufus, I was referring to the elaborate post above, replete with references to primary quotations; you sit on your fat lazy ass, and simply come up with one liners, saying that you don't "believe" this or that, or that you "feel" that my viewpoint is on the same sub-intelligent level of your one or two lowbrow liners. The post you are citing was addressed to another moron, going by the name of "laurass". Guessing from your response to it, rather than the post you are supposed to be addressing with counter-evidence, I have to come to the conclusion you are the same asshole or should I say bitch-hole as that laurass character, no? Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You must really be a monkey, who managed to escape from a zoo cage and randomly tap away at the facility's computer. Dufus, I was referring to the elaborate post above, replete with references to primary quotations; you sit on your fat lazy ass, and simply come up with one liners, saying that you don't "believe" this or that, or that you "feel" that my viewpoint is on the same sub-intelligent level of your one or two lowbrow liners. The post you are citing was addressed to another moron, going by the name of "laurass". Guessing from your response to it, rather than the post you are supposed to be addressing with counter-evidence, I have to come to the conclusion you are the same asshole or should I say bitch-hole as that laurass character, no?
hehehehe
Jewboy going crazy as usual.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by monkey clit:
You know, if I'd even bothered to read this post, I could have spared myself that painfully dull, drab and truly awful ensuing 1,000 word post of yours, not to mention the accompanying, utterly overwhelming urge, to swallow my own tongue. I have lost five minutes of my life on that nonsense. Five minutes I will never get back again.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Probably.
Conversation closed.
You've decided to edit this like a thousand times, and this is the best you can come up with? Do you suck yo father's winnie with that mouth? Absolutely.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^Oh btw, zoo ape, on the last page your tiny monkey ass at first blurted that my commentary was something that you presumably agreed to several pages back; this was when you were busy acting like a true ape and throwing you feces at any human being who points out matters that don't jive with your petty emotional feelings. The next minute, in a sudden u-turn, your bleeding ape ass decided this was not what you claimed it was, after all, and that your fried monkey brain was too cooked up to read any simple text properly. Now, you want to convince me that the extensive fact-ridden materials that were delivered to you made you expend some energy for the first time in your life, for 5 minutes. Buddy, you waisted more than 5 minutes writing some unintelligible orangutan drivel at me. You do provide comic relief, I'll give you that. LOL.
NOW, the conversation is over for you. Let us adults resume reasoned conversation in human language.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^^Roaches and rats have infested this thread. This is simply outrageous..
Whatz with the suckng mama cunt and Daddy strings? Infantile language. This is just disgraceful.
Somebody start a new one...
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Agreed. Stop infesting the place, paper lion.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
fuk you and your fake ass six million jewboy dawidowicz.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Speaking of vermin that infest this place, let's play the guessing game:
Which maggot scribbled these infantile lines earlier; guess!
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Geri Jeri pink gwoat
I do not live in America. Never lived in America, the poem there, that was just a metaphorical exegesis!
Now when are you heading back to Scotland, Europa your "beloved home and heaven" what are you doing in the Americas that Niggaz built?
Your pink Euros are beggarz incorporated!
...Go play with your sex toys if this is getting too stressful for you.
...Geri Geri pink-gwoat,
North America is not United States; ever heard about Mexico? Ever heard of Canada? whatz up Albinos? You need geography lesson too? You cannot read or what?
Now answer me, when are you gettin back to Euro-land, to Noddy land, the land of vicious red heads? When?
...Is that your justification for telling lies? and spreading rumors and wishful thinking? and racist lies about aboriginal black Libyans?
Turkic, that is not a justification for your crimes...
And yes, I am bitter at bitter people and acts like your genocidal Turkic nation and the great and wicked American empire...
But not for long, since you all going down down, down under, before our very eyes...
Hehehe.. "watch history in the making!"
...Geri pink dog
Just point out one sentence in that your long rambling post where IronLion stated that he lived in United States.
We are waiting....
...Exiile, shame on you, and shame to you!
Is that Black African Abdel Rahman in United Nations security council representing Libya or Black Africa?
Don't turn tail and run....now facts have come to haunt you!
Only cowards run when they are hit with challenges...
...Geri Jeri Moofuka is a gaylord. He likes to fantasize about men being girls, butt rapes, and all that gay crap...
Read his comment below so you know he knows he is dealing with a "him", a man, but he is just gay like that...
...and it goes on and on, more than space here would allow. Too late mothafuka, I had walked in a a war zone of zoo creeps uncontrollably urinating and defecating besides themelves, running the place bunkers.
Getting advising from a yellow paper lion, is like a cursing retard trying to advise normal people to not curse.
Attention-seeking damsel in anguish, you do know how to flirt with me like a school girl. Is it because you are sexually ambiguous? Tell me the whole story. And oh, fock you too.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^^Joo boi lost it again...
Doctoooor...!!! We need your help here Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Sorry, no doctor can fix your broken English, my Caribbean hippie.
...but you do need to have your head checked...by a doctor. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
حالة مأساوية يعيشها ما يقرب من 3 آلاف مصري في مدينة مسراطة بالجماهيرية الليبية على خلفية تصاعد الاحتجاجات الشعبية هناك وصدها بعنف من قبل السلطات الليبية.
وقال بعض المصريين في المدينة أنهم محاصرون بداخلها ويعيشون في قلق دائم خاصة مع تناقص المواد الغذائية هناك وتصاعد حدة المواجهات بين السلطات والمتظاهرين ، وأضافوا أن غالبيتهم انقطعت أعمالهم وفقدوا أموالهم ويقيمون داخل محل إقامتهم بشكل دائم.
وأشاروا إلى أن المدينة تكتظ بالمصريين وتشتهر بذلك ورغم ذلك لم يتم إغاثتهم حتى الآن ، وأكدوا أن الوسيلة الوحيدة لإجلائهم من المدينة تكون عن طريق البحر ، وطالب المصريون في مسراطة ضرورة تدخل السلطات المصرية لإنقاذهم من الأوضاع التي يعيشون فيها.
على جانب آخر قال مصريون بليبيا أنهم قاموا بتحرير العديد من السجون يحتجز فيها مصريون سواء من الداخل أو المحتجزين على خلفية قضايا هجرة غير شرعية إلى ايطاليا.
Now this could give and excuse for the Egyptian army to use force.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
U.S. Prepares to Make Its Lunge at Libya’s Oil Fields
“A vicious, racist pogrom is raging against the 1.5 million sub-Saharan Black African migrant workers who do the hard jobs in Libya.”
The U.S. government and media, are making all the familiar noises preliminary to an invasion of Libya. It is amazing how arch villains think themselves heroes. “The U.S. is the last country in a moral position to criticize Khadafi for his treatment of Arab civilians. Remember Fallujah.” Meanwhile, Americans express little concern that “hundreds of Black migrant workers have already been killed by anti-Khadafi forces.”
American progressives and peace forces have been in a state of joyous delirium in recent weeks as they experienced vicarious, televised popular victories in Tunisia and Egypt. Watching unarmed crowds achieve tentative victories against entrenched, U.S.-backed regimes produced a kind of giddiness on this side of the ocean – an otherworldly feeling that somehow, the foreign outposts of U.S. empire might suddenly disintegrate by popular demand. But now, the U.S. naval war machine lies off the coast of Libya, and it is time for the American anti-war movement – such as it is – to remember who is the biggest enemy of peace on planet Earth: U.S. imperialism.
It is certainly not Muamar Khadafi, no matter what you think of him. And the conflict that is raging in Libya seems in important ways very much unlike the events in Tunisia and Egypt. The anti-Khadafi forces were armed from almost the very beginning of the uprising, and included elements of the military. Unlike the opponents of Egypt’s President Mubarak, we know very little about who these rebel Libyans are – except that they have been getting lots of material help from the Americans and the French and other Europeans. It is also becoming clearer by the day that a vicious, racist pogrom is raging against the 1.5 million sub-Saharan Black African migrant workers who do the hard jobs in Libya, work that is rejected by the relatively prosperous Libyans. Hundreds of Black migrant workers have already been killed by anti-Khadafi forces – yet the U.S. corporate media express absolutely no concern for their safety. One western report noted that large numbers of Black Africans were seized in Benghazi, and were assumed to have been hanged. That is a war crime, whether these men were soldiers or migrant workers, but the western correspondent seemed unconcerned. One suspects there are many atrocities occurring in the rebel-held areas of Libya, especially against people that are not members of the locally dominant tribe. Benghazi is not Tahrir Square, in Cairo.
How convenient that most of the Libyan voices we hear on corporate media call for armed western intervention. How in synch with the increasing American and European threats of “no-fly zones” and amphibious naval actions – all, of course, for humanitarian reasons, rather than having something to do with the fact that Libya is a major producer of some of the world’s sweetest crude oil.
American United Nations Ambassador Susan Rice, who is at least as warlike as Condoleezza Rice, is visibly eager to invade Libya under humanitarian pretexts. The U.S. is the last country in a moral position to criticize Khadafi for his treatment of Arab civilians. Remember Fallujah, the Iraqi city of a quarter million people that the U.S. leveled after first bombing its hospitals, inflicting many thousands of casualties. If most Americans don't remember Fallujah, the Arab world certainly does.
Many Americans that claim to be anti-war are actually just looking for a U.S. military action that is to their liking. Fortunately, the United National Anti-War Committee, UNAC, understands that U.S. imperialism is the ultimate enemy of peace, and says “no” to the U.S. invasion of Libya.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
African Migrants Targeted in Libya
from Al Jazeera
Anti-Khadafi forces have already killed hundreds of sub-Saharan Blacks, supposed because Black “mercenaries” are fighting for Khadafi. About 1.5m Sub-Saharan African migrants work in Libya as low-paid laborers. Said one man from Mali, “"The most dangerous situation is for foreigners like us – and also us black people – because Gaddafi brought soldiers from Chad and Niger who reportedly killed Arabs."
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Libya, Getting it Right: A Revolutionary Pan-African Perspective
The conflict in Libya is not a revolution, but a counter-revolution. The struggle “is fundamentally a battle between Pan-African forces on the one hand, who are dedicated to the realization of Qaddafi's vision of a united Africa, and reactionary racist Libyan Arab forces who reject Qaddafi's vision of Libya as part of a united Africa.” The so-called Black African “mercenaries” are misnamed. “As a result of Libya's support for liberation movements throughout Africa and the world, international battalions were formed” which are part of the Libyan armed forces.
Thousands of Indians, Egyptians, Chinese, Filipinos, Turks, Germans, English, Italians, Malaysians, Koreans and a host of other nationalities are lining up at the borders and the airport to leave Libya. It begs the question: What were they doing in Libya in the first place? Unemployment figures, according to the Western media and Al Jazeera, are at 30%. If this is so, then why all these foreign workers?
For those of us who have lived and worked in Libya, there are many complexities to the current situation that have been completely overlooked by the Western media and 'Westoxicated' analysts, who have nothing other than a Eurocentric perspective to draw on. Let us be clear - there is no possibility of understanding what is happening in Libya within a Eurocentric framework. Westerners are incapable of understanding a system unless the system emanates from or is attached in some way to the West. Libya's system and the battle now taking place on its soil, stands completely outside of the Western imagination.
News coverage by the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera has been oversimplified and misleading. An array of anti-Qaddafi spokespersons, most living outside Libya, have been paraded in front of us – each one clearly a counter-revolutionary and less credible than the last. Despite the clear and irrefutable evidence from the beginning of these protests that Muammar Qaddafi had considerable support both inside Libya and internationally, not one pro-Qaddafi voice has been allowed to air. The media and their selected commentators have done their best to manufacture an opinion that Libya is essentially the same as Egypt and Tunisia and that Qaddafi is just another tyrant amassing large sums of money in Swiss bank accounts. But no matter how hard they try, they cannot make Qaddafi into a Mubarak or Libya into Egypt.
The first question is: Is the revolt taking place in Libya fuelled by a concern over economic issues such as poverty and unemployment as the media would have us believe? Let us examine the facts.
Under the revolutionary leadership of Muammar Qaddafi, Libya has attained the highest standard of living in Africa. In 2007, in an article which appeared in the African Executive Magazine, Norah Owaraga noted that Libya, “unlike other oil producing countries such as Nigeria and Saudi Arabia, utilized the revenue from its oil to develop its country. The standard of living of the people of Libya is one of the highest in Africa, falling in the category of countries with a GNP per capita of between USD 2,200 and 6,000.”
This is all the more remarkable when we consider that in 1951 Libya was officially the poorest country in the world. According to the World Bank, the per capita income was less than $50 a year - even lower than India. Today, all Libyans own their own homes and cars. Two Fleet Street journalists, David Blundy and Andrew Lycett, who are by no means supporters of the Libyan revolution, had this to say:
“The young people are well dressed, well fed and well educated. Libyans now earn more per capita than the British. The disparity in annual incomes... is smaller than in most countries. Libya's wealth has been fairly spread throughout society. Every Libyan gets free, and often excellent, education, medical and health services. New colleges and hospitals are impressive by any international standard. All Libyans have a house or a flat, a car and most have televisions, video recorders and telephones. Compared with most citizens of the Third World countries, and with many in the First World, Libyans have it very good indeed.” (Source: Qaddafi and the Libyan Revolution)
Large scale housing construction has taken place right across the country. Every citizen has been given a decent house or apartment to live in rent-free. In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.” This dictum has now become a reality for the Libyan people.
Large scale agricultural projects have been implemented in an effort to “make the desert bloom” and achieve self-sufficiency in food production. Any Libyan who wants to become a farmer is given free use of land, a house, farm equipment, some livestock and seed.
Today, Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of all charges. The fact is that the Libyan revolution has achieved such a high standard of living for its people that they import labor from other parts of the world to do the jobs that the unemployed Libyans refuse to do. Libya has been called by many observers inside and out, “a nation of shop keepers.” It is part of the Libyan Arab psyche to own your own small business and this type of small scale private enterprise flourishes in Libya. We can draw on many examples of Libyans with young sons who expressed the idea that it would be shameful for the family if these same young men were to seek menial work and instead preferred for them to remain at home supported by the extended family.
No system is perfect, and Libya is no exception. They suffered nine years of economic sanctions and this caused huge problems for the Libyan economy. Also, there is nowhere on planet earth that has escaped the monumental crisis of neo-liberal capitalism. It has impacted everywhere – even on post revolutionary societies that have rejected “free market” capitalism. However, what we are saying is that severe economic injustice is not at the heart of this conflict. So then, what is?
A Battle for Africa
The battle that is being waged in Libya is fundamentally a battle between Pan-African forces on the one hand, who are dedicated to the realization of Qaddafi's vision of a united Africa, and reactionary racist Libyan Arab forces who reject Qaddafi's vision of Libya as part of a united Africa and want to ally themselves instead with the EU and look toward Europe and the Arab World for Libya's future.
One of Muammar Qaddafi's most controversial and difficult moves in the eyes of many Libyans was his championing of Africa and his determined drive to unite Africa with one currency, one army and a shared vision regarding the true independence and liberation of the entire continent. He has contributed large amounts of his time and energy and large sums of money to this project and like Kwame Nkrumah, he has paid a high price.
Many of the Libyan people did not approve of this move. They wanted their leader to look towards Europe. Of course, Libya has extensive investments and commercial ties with Europe but the Libyans know that Qaddafi’s heart is in Africa.
Many years ago, Qaddafi told a large gathering, which included Libyans and revolutionaries from many parts of the world, that the Black Africans were the true owners of Libya long before the Arab incursion into North Africa, and that Libyans need to acknowledge and pay tribute to their ancient African roots. He ended by saying, as is proclaimed in his Green Book, that “the Black race shall prevail throughout the world.” This is not what many Libyans wanted to hear. As with all fair skinned Arabs, prejudice against Black Africans is endemic.
Brother Leader, Guide of the Revolution and King of Kings are some of the titles that have been bestowed on Qaddafi by Africans. Only last month Qaddafi called for the creation of a Secretariat of traditional African Chiefs and Kings, with whom he has excellent ties, to co-ordinate efforts to build African unity at the grassroots level throughout the continent, a bottom up approach, as opposed to trying to build unity at the government/state level, an approach which has failed the African unification project since the days of Kwame Nkrumah and Sekou Toure. This bottom up approach is widely supported by many Pan Africanists worldwide.
African Mercenaries or Freedom Fighters?
In the past week, the phrase “African mercenaries” has been repeated over and over by the media and the selected Libyan citizens they choose to speak to have, as one commentator put it, “spat the word ‘African’ with a venomous hatred.”
The media has assumed, without any research or understanding of the situation because they are refusing to give any air time to pro-Qaddafi forces, that the many Africans in military uniform fighting alongside the pro-Qaddafi Libyan forces are mercenaries. However, it is a myth that the Africans fighting to defend the Jamahiriya and Muammar Qaddafi are mercenaries being paid a few dollars and this assumption is based solely on the usual racist and contemptuous view of Black Africans.
Actually, in truth, there are people all over Africa and the African Diaspora who support and respect Muammar Qaddafi as a result of his invaluable contribution to the worldwide struggle for African emancipation.
“It is a myth that the Africans fighting to defend the Jamahiriya and Muammar Qaddafi are mercenaries being paid a few dollars.”
Over the past two decades, thousands of Africans from all over the continent were provided with education, work and military training – many of them coming from liberation movements. As a result of Libya's support for liberation movements throughout Africa and the world, international battalions were formed. These battalions saw themselves as a part of the Libyan revolution, and took it upon themselves to defend the revolution against attacks from within its borders or outside.
These are the Africans who are fighting to defend Qaddafi and the gains of the Libyan revolution to their death if need be. It is not unlike what happened when internationalist battalions came to the aid of the revolutionary forces against Franco's fascist forces in Spain.
Malian political analyst, Adam Thiam, notes that “thousands of Tuaregs who were enrolled in the Islamic Legion established by the Libyan revolution remained in Libya and they are enrolled in the Libyan security forces.”
African Migrants under Attack
As African fighters from Chad, Niger, Mali, Ghana, Kenya and Southern Sudan (it should be noted that Libya supported the Sudanese People’s Liberation Army under John Garang in their war of liberation against Arab hegemonists in Khartoum, while all other Arab leaders backed the Khartoum regime) fight to defend this African revolution, a million African refugees and thousands of African migrant workers stand the risk of being murdered as a result of their perceived support for Qaddafi.
One Turkish construction worker described a massacre: “We had 70-80 people from Chad working for our company. They were cut dead with pruning shears and axes, attackers saying: ‘You are providing troops for Qaddafi. The Sudanese were also massacred. We saw it for ourselves.”
This is a far cry from what is being portrayed in the media as “peaceful protesters” being set upon by pro-Qaddafi forces. In fact, footage of the Benghazi revolt shows men with machetes, AK 47s and RPGs. In the Green Book, Qaddafi argues for the transfer of all power, wealth and arms directly into the hands of the people themselves. No one can deny that the Libyan populace is heavily armed. This is part of Qaddafi's philosophy of arms not being monopolised by any section of the society, including the armed forces. It must be said that it is not usual practice for tyrants and dictators to arm their population.
Qaddafi has also been very vocal regarding the plight of Africans who migrate to Europe, where they are met with racism, more poverty, violence at the hands of extreme right wing groups and in many cases death, when the un-seaworthy boats they travel in sink.
“Qaddafi has also been very vocal regarding the plight of Africans who migrate to Europe.”
Moved by their plight, a conference was held in Libya in January this year, to address their needs and concerns. More than 500 delegates and speakers from around the world attended the conference titled “A Decent Life in Europe or a Welcome Return to Africa.”
“We should live in Europe with decency and dignity,” Qaddafi told participants. “We need a good relationship with Europe not a relationship of master and slave. There should be a strong relationship between Africa and Europe. Our presence should be strong, tangible and good. It’s up to you as the Africans in the Diaspora. We have to continue more and more until the unity of Africa is achieved.
From now on, by the will of God, I will assign teams to search, investigate and liaise with the Africans in Europe and to check their situations...this is my duty and role towards the sons of Africa; I am a soldier for Africa. I am here for you and I work for you; therefore, I will not leave you and I will follow up on your conditions.”
Joint committees of African migrants, the United Nations, the African Union, the European Union and international organizations present at the conference discussed the need to coordinate the implementation of many of the conference's recommendations.
Statements are appearing all over the internet from Africans who have a different view to that being perpetuated by those intent on discrediting Qaddafi and the Libyan revolution. One African commented:
“When I was growing up I first read a comic book of his revolution at the age of ten. Since then, as dictators came and went, Colonel Qaddafi has made an impression on me as a man who truly loves Africa! Libyans could complain that he spent their wealth on other Africans! But those Africans he helped put in power, built schools and mosques and brought in many forms of development showing that Africans can do for themselves. If those Africans would abandon him to be swallowed by Western Imperialism and their lies and just let him go as a dictator in the name of so-called democracy...if they could do that...they should receive the names and fate that the Western press gives our beloved leader. If there is any one person who was half as generous as he is, let them step forward.”
And another African comments:
“This man has been accused of many things and listening to the West who just recently were happy to accept his generous hospitality, you will think that he is worse than Hitler. The racism and contemptuous attitudes of Arabs towards Black Africans has made me a natural sceptic of any overtures from them to forge a closer link with Black Africa but Qaddafi was an exception.”
Opportunistic Revolt
This counter-revolutionary revolt caught everyone, including the Libyan authorities, by surprise. They knew what the media is not reporting: that unlike Egypt and Tunisia and other countries in the region, where there is tremendous poverty, unemployment and repressive pro-Western regimes, the Libyan dynamic was entirely different. However, an array of opportunistic forces, ranging from so-called Islamists, Arab-Supremacists, including some of those who have recently defected from Qaddafi's inner circle, have used the events in neighbouring countries as a pretext to stage a coup and to advance their own agenda for the Libyan nation. Many of these former officials were the authors of, and covertly fuelled the anti-African pogrom in Libya a few years ago when many Africans lost their lives in street battles between Africans and Arab Libyans. This was a deliberate attempt to embarrass Qaddafi and to undermine his efforts in Africa.
Qaddafi has long been a thorn in the Islamists side. In his recent address to the Libyan people, broadcast from the ruins of the Bab al-Azizia compound bombed by Reagan in 1986, he asked the “bearded ones” in Benghazi and Jabal al Akhdar where they were when Reagan bombed his compound in Tripoli, killing hundreds of Libyans, including his daughter. He said they were hiding in their homes applauding the US and he vowed that he would never allow the country to be returned to the grip of them and their colonial masters.
Al Qaeda is in the Sahara on his borders and the International Union of Muslim Scholars is calling for him to be tried in a court. One asks why are they calling for Qaddafi's blood? Why not Mubarak who closed the Rafah Border Crossing while the Israeli's slaughtered the Palestinians in Gaza. Why not Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair who are responsible for the murder of millions of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan?
“An array of opportunistic forces, ranging from so-called Islamists, Arab-Supremacists, including some of those who have recently defected from Qaddafi's inner circle, have used the events in neighbouring countries as a pretext to stage a coup.”
The answer is simple - because Qaddafi committed some “cardinal sins.” He dared to challenge their reactionary and feudal notions of Islam. He has upheld the idea that every Muslim is a ruler (Caliph) and does not need the Ulema to interpret the Quran for them. He has questioned the Islam of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda from a Quranic/theological perspective and is one of the few political leaders equipped to do so. Qaddafi has been called a Mujaddid (this term refers to a person who appears to revive Islam and to purge it of alien elements, restoring it to its authentic form) and he comes in the tradition of Jamaludeen Afghani and the late Iranian revolutionary, Ali Shariati.
Libya is a deeply traditional society, plagued with some outmoded and bankrupt ideas that continue to surface to this day. In many ways, Qaddafi has had to struggle against the same reactionary aspects of Arab culture and tradition that the holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was struggling against in 7th century Arabia – Arab supremacy/racism, supremacy of family and tribe, historical feuding tribe against tribe and the marginalisation of women. Benghazi has always been at the heart of counter-revolution in Libya, fostering reactionary Islamic movements such as the Wahhabis and Salafists. It is these people who founded the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group based in Benghazi which allies itself with Al Qaeda and who have, over the years, been responsible for the assassination of leading members of the Libyan revolutionary committees.
These forces hate Qaddafi's revolutionary reading of the Quran. They foster an Islam concerned with outward trappings and mere religiosity, in the form of rituals, which at the same time is feudal and repressive, while rejecting the liberatory spirituality of Islam. While these so-called Islamists are opposed to Western occupation of Muslim lands, they have no concrete programmatic platform for meaningful socio-economic and political transformation to advance their societies beyond semi-feudal and capitalist systems which reinforce the most backward and reactionary ideas and traditions. Qaddafi's political philosophy, as outlined in the Green Book, rejects unfettered capitalism in all its manifestations, including the “State capitalism” of the former communist countries and the neo-liberal capitalist model that has been imposed at a global level. The idea that capitalism is not compatible with Islam and the Quran is not palatable to many Arabs and so-called Islamists because they hold onto the fallacious notion that business and trade is synonymous with capitalism.
Getting it Right
Whatever the mistakes made by Qaddafi and the Libyan revolution, its gains and its huge contribution to the struggle of oppressed peoples worldwide cannot and must not be ignored. Saif Qaddafi, when asked about the position of his father and family, said this battle is not about one man and his family, it is about Libya and the direction it will take.
That direction has always been controversial. In 1982, The World Mathaba was established in Libya. Mathaba means a gathering place for people with a common purpose. The World Mathaba brought together revolutionaries and freedom fighters from every corner of the globe to share ideas and develop their revolutionary knowledge. Many liberation groups throughout the world received education, training and support from Muammar Qaddafi and the Libyan revolution including ANC, AZAPO, PAC and BCM of Azania (South Africa), SWAPO of Namibia, MPLA of Angola, The Sandinistas of Nicaragua, The Polisario of the Sahara, the PLO, The Native American Movements throughout the Americas, The Nation of Islam led by Louis Farrakhan to name but a few. Nelson Mandela called Muammar Qaddafi one of this century’s greatest freedom fighters, and insisted that the eventual collapse of the apartheid system owed much to Qaddafi and Libyan support. Mandela said that in the darkest moments of their struggle, when their backs were to the wall, it was Muammar Qaddafi who stood with them. The late African freedom fighter, Kwame Ture, referred to Qaddafi as “a diamond in a cesspool of African misleaders.”
“Nelson Mandela called Muammar Qaddafi one of this century’s greatest freedom fighters.”
The hideous notion being perpetuated by the media and reactionary forces, inside and outside of Libya, that this is just another story of a bloated dictatorship that has run its course is mis-information and deliberate distortion. Whatever one’s opinions of Qaddafi the man, no one can deny his invaluable contribution to human emancipation and the universal truths outlined in his Green Book.
Progressive scholars in many parts of the world, including the West, have acclaimed The Green Book as an incisive critique of capitalism and the Western Parliamentary model of multi-party democracy. In addition, there is no denying that the system of direct democracy posited by Qaddafi in The Green Book offers an alternative model and solution for Africa and the Third World, where multi-party so-called democracy has been a dismal failure, resulting in poverty, ethnic and tribal conflict and chaos.
Every revolution, since the beginning of time, has defended itself against those who would want to roll back its gains. Europeans should look back into their own bloody history to see that this includes the American, French and Bolshevik revolutions. Marxists speak of Trotsky and Lenin’s brutal suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion by the Red Army as being a “tragic necessity.”
Let's get it right: The battle in Libya is not about peaceful protestors versus an armed and hostile State. All sides are heavily armed and hostile. The battle being waged in Libya is essentially a battle between those who want to see a united and liberated Libya and Africa, free of neo-colonialism and neo-liberal capitalism and free to construct their own system of governance compatible with the African and Arab personalities and cultures and those who find this entire notion repugnant. And both sides are willing to pay the ultimate price to defend their positions.
Make no mistake, if Qaddafi and the Libyan revolution are defeated by this opportunistic conglomerate of reactionaries and racists, then progressive forces worldwide and the Pan African project will suffer a huge defeat and set back.
Gerald A. Perreira has lived in Libya for many years and was an executive member of the World Mathaba. He can be contacted at mojadi94@gmail.com.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Approx. translation of the Arabic post above:
"Tragic situation experienced by almost 3 thousand Egyptians in the city of Emsratp in Libya against the backdrop of mounting popular protests there and violently stopped by the Libyan authorities.
And said some Egyptians in the city, they are trapped inside, and living in constant worry, especially with declining food there and the escalation of clashes between authorities and demonstrators, and added that most of them cut off and lost their money and living within their place of residence permanently.
They pointed out that the city is packed with Egyptians and is famous for this and although it is not relief so far, and stressed that the only way to be evacuated from the city by sea, and called on Egyptians in Emsratp need to enter the Egyptian authorities to rescue them from situations in which they live.
On the other hand, Libya Egyptians said they had to edit many of the prisons are being held by the Egyptians, whether from inside or held against the backdrop of the issues of illegal immigration to Italy."
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Libyan state television is reporting that the eastern city of Zawiya is back under the control of the government. "The masses and the popular leadership in Zawiya have managed to secure the city and wrest control from terrorist elements," it says.
POWER TO THE LEADER!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: حالة مأساوية يعيشها ما يقرب من 3 آلاف مصري في مدينة مسراطة بالجماهيرية الليبية على خلفية تصاعد الاحتجاجات الشعبية هناك وصدها بعنف من قبل السلطات الليبية.
وقال بعض المصريين في المدينة أنهم محاصرون بداخلها ويعيشون في قلق دائم خاصة مع تناقص المواد الغذائية هناك وتصاعد حدة المواجهات بين السلطات والمتظاهرين ، وأضافوا أن غالبيتهم انقطعت أعمالهم وفقدوا أموالهم ويقيمون داخل محل إقامتهم بشكل دائم.
وأشاروا إلى أن المدينة تكتظ بالمصريين وتشتهر بذلك ورغم ذلك لم يتم إغاثتهم حتى الآن ، وأكدوا أن الوسيلة الوحيدة لإجلائهم من المدينة تكون عن طريق البحر ، وطالب المصريون في مسراطة ضرورة تدخل السلطات المصرية لإنقاذهم من الأوضاع التي يعيشون فيها.
على جانب آخر قال مصريون بليبيا أنهم قاموا بتحرير العديد من السجون يحتجز فيها مصريون سواء من الداخل أو المحتجزين على خلفية قضايا هجرة غير شرعية إلى ايطاليا.
Now this could give and excuse for the Egyptian army to use force.
I agree. But let's wait, this is an oppurtunity for Egypt to impose its power in the region. And while it is limited they do have enough American Hardware to inflict serious damage on Qadaffi and his sons' paramilitary and mercenary units.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
There is a precedent;
Sadat disciplined Qadaffi. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Just heard neocon warmonger Sen. John McCain saying that a no fly zone would inhibit Qadaffi's ability to prevail militarily.
Like I said to the dumbo above, a no fly zone is in effect a declaration of war. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: a no fly zone is in effect a declaration of war.
And? A declaration of war on Qaddafi is not a bad thing. My objection is that I believe that Libyan will want to do this on their own as any proud people would and at the same time I hate to see many dead innocent.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Declaration of war on Gaddafi alone should be of little to no concern. A no-fly zone in Libya however, would have the same effect it has had in Bosnia and Iraq. They end up in military escalations that cost thousands upon thousands of lives, aside from the head figures being hunted down. They are usually used in the pretext that they are being enforced for "humanitarian" reasons, i.e. to protect the hapless average citizens from dictators.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Declaration of war against Ghadafi would be a violation of international laws of war, and the U.N Convention, and all the international law that govern conducts between states and among states.
You don't declare a war cause you do not like theLeader of a country.
You don't declare a war because a state is trying to ensure its integrity and non-violation by a bunch of thugs.
You don't declare a war because a state is trying to enforce peace, and public order in its territory.
Wars are only declared with the authorization of the Security Council for defense against aggression by other states. Principally this is the only ground for legalization of war, otherwise war is an illegal conduct under the present state of international law.
A new principle of humanitarian intervention has been canvassed so that war is legalized in the name of stopping genocide by some leaders against a segment of their society. This is highhly controversial though, and its limits are not yet set nor widely accepted.
So any talk of war at this point is illegal, (no evidence of genocide in Libya, no aggression by Libya against another country), and pre-mature.
Any country that attacks Libya without provocation will be defeated by the African Army and the leaders of such countries will face war crimes.
That is why they will never, never dare attack Libya. All this talk of war and war ships and war plane are just hot air.
Just miltiary Generals and their war supplier contractor friends just making more and more money....
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Libyan rebels accused of targeting blacks Rights groups say African migrant workers and black Libyans face beatings and detention by rebel fighters who suspect them of being mercenaries hired by Moammar Kadafi to put down the rebellion. By David Zucchino, Los Angeles Times
5:46 PM PST, March 4, 2011
Reporting from Benghazi, Libya
About a dozen African men stood lined along a hallway of the courthouse in the eastern city of Benghazi. The men were suspected of being mercenaries fighting on behalf of Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi and had been rousted from their homes in the morning, turned in by residents responding to a rebel campaign urging them to report "suspicious people."
We are construction workers, one of the men said, pleading his innocence to a Times reporter visiting the courthouse, which now serves as the headquarters of the rebel government.
But the interview was abruptly ended and the group of Africans were led away to detention by Muhammed Bala, who described himself as a security officer for the rebel government.
"We're out looking for mercenaries every day," Bala said.
Across eastern Libya, rebel fighters and their supporters are detaining, intimidating and frequently beating African immigrants and black Libyans, accusing them of fighting as mercenaries on behalf of Kadafi, witnesses and human rights workers say.
In a few instances, rebels have executed suspected mercenaries captured in battle, according to Human Rights Watch and local Libyans.
The rebel-led provisional government in Benghazi denies mistreating suspected mercenaries, though it acknowledges that it is detaining some for questioning. It says it has given human rights representatives access to detainees.
But rebel fighters and bands of gunmen who looted government weapons depots are reportedly instigating their own detentions and beatings.
Kadafi has long used mercenaries, many of them from sub-Saharan Africa, to help enforce his rule.
As the country has descended into violence in recent weeks, witnesses in the capital,Tripoli, and other cities have reported mercenaries suppressing protests and indiscriminately shooting at civilians.
But Libya also is home to thousands of immigrant laborers as well as black Libyans. In their zeal, human rights officials and witnesses say, rebel fighters in some cases have arbitrarily killed some mercenaries and in others cases failed to distinguish between them and non-combatants.
In the eastern city of Beida and in other areas under rebel control, several accused mercenaries have been killed recently, said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director for Human Rights Watch in Libya. There have been "widespread and systematic attacks" on Africans and black Libyans by rebels and their supporters as they attempt to root out suspected mercenaries, he said.
"Thousands of Africans have come under attack and lost their homes and possessions during the recent fighting," Bouckaert said in an interview Friday in Benghazi. "A lot of Africans have been caught up in this mercenary hysteria."
He called the rebel fighters and gunmen "ad hoc military and security forces."
The provisional government says it is struggling to control thousands of armed men fighting under the banner of the "revolutionary movement." There is no central military leadership or chain of command, only undisciplined street fighters.
"This is a revolution. We're starting from zero," said Mustafa Gheriani, an official with the provisional government in Benghazi, who said detainees are well-treated. "We don't have structures in place to deal with these issues."
As many as eight Libyans who fought with pro-Kadafi forces in a battle for the oil hub of Port Brega were shot or stabbed to death by rebels Wednesday, according to Mustafa Abdulrahim, a rebel who fought there and said he disapproved of executing prisoners.
Jalal Elgallal, a Benghazi businessman who is part of the transitional government, said he had no information about the eight pro-Kadafi fighters reported slain in Port Brega. But he acknowledged that killings might have taken place.
"If they were killed, I'd be glad that it was only eight," he said. "And I can say that when we have them in our hands, they are treated properly."
After Kadafi came to power, he began training fighters to create an unofficial army he could use to foment unrest in the region and that he could call upon in a crisis, Libya experts said. Some signed on for the arms and training, including rebel forces among the Tuareg Berber nomads from Chad, Niger and Mali. But the primary motivation was money, with thousands of dollars often paid up front.
"In the existing environment of Africa, of war and poverty, why not? You get weapons, you get paid, you live the life of ease, to a certain extent," said Mansour El-Kikhia, chairman of the department of political science and geography at the University of Texas at San Antonio. In exchange, "they are his backbone," he said.
But their presence during the last 30 years has also made black Africans targets within Libya, El-Kikhia said. When suspected mercenaries are caught, they are almost always hanged or otherwise executed, he said, leading to the deaths of some innocent black immigrants.
Bouckaert, who witnessed the fighting in Port Brega, said Human Rights Watch is investigating credible reports that several African or black Libyan men being treated in a Benghazi hospital recently were abducted by armed men.
He said he was promised access Friday to the men detained at the courthouse in Benghazi, as well as to pro-Kadafi fighters captured in the Port Brega battle. He said other men he has interviewed in custody have told him they were treated well. Bouckaert said the men were released after "extensive discussion" with authorities.
Khaled Sayah, a spokesman for the rebels' "military council," said about 150 men were being held at several secret locations in and around Benghazi. Some of them are suspected mercenaries from Niger or Chad, and even Libya, he said.
Gheriani of the rebels' provisional government said, however, that he had been told that none of those captured were from other countries.
Bouckaert said Human Rights Watch has not confirmed a single instance a foreign mercenary having been brought in to fight in eastern Libya. He said many black men accused of being mercenaries are actually black Libyans or Africans who have been living in Libya for years.
He said some of the 160 Libyan pro-Kadafi fighters captured in street fighting in Beida last month probably were guilty of killing civilians, he said. They were released under a tribal agreement, he said.
But many innocent Africans and black Libyans have faced detention, beatings or intimidation while being accused of accepting money to fight for Kadafi.
Six men from Ghana who were turned over to rebels by a taxi driver after a fare dispute were detained as mercenaries recently and later released, Bouckaert said.
Africans recently interviewed in Benghazi said they had been threatened, beaten and driven from their homes by gunmen calling them mercenaries.
Yusef Ghawys, a construction worker from Ghana, said he and several other workers from Somalia, Ethiopia and Niger were forced from their living quarters by men armed with knives who ordered them to leave the country.
"Our lives are in danger," Ghawys said. "They said they'd kill us."
Ghawys and hundreds of other Africans were camped out at the Benghazi port this week, trying to board a ship leaving the country. Crewman on ships transporting Chinese, Tunisian and South Asian workers to safety refused to take the Africans.
Gheriani said only 10 to 15 detainees are held at any time, with most released after questioning by courthouse prosecutors. He declined to say how many have been held as accused mercenaries after questioning or what will happen to them. There is no functioning judicial system here yet.
He said detainees have access to food, water, medical care and human rights groups.
"We're not feeding them caviar, but they eat what we eat," he said.
Elgallal said the provisional government is trying to protect Africans and black Libyans from false accusations and harassment.
"Just being black or African is not a crime," he said.
david.zucchino@latimes.com
Times staff writer Raja Abdulrahim in Benghazi and Molly Hennessy-Fiske in New Orleans contributed to this report.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Rebels hold British special forces in Libya: report
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: a no fly zone is in effect a declaration of war.
And? A declaration of war on Qaddafi is not a bad thing. My objection is that I believe that Libyan will want to do this on their own as any proud people would and at the same time I hate to see many dead innocent.
STFU. wasn't referring to you.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Who cares whom you were referring t! The point is still valid.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing: ''Like I said to the dumbo above, a no fly zone is in effect a declaration of war.''
Declared by who? The ones who want it or the group who doesn't? Or both?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I'm afraid to answer old man. I think its a trap. Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Former nightclub dancer reveals how she had a 'crazy' six-year fling with Gaddafi's son and watched as he blew millions
''Former nightclub dancer reveals how she had a 'crazy' six-year fling with Gaddafi's son and watched as he blew millions.''
Without my reading the article, what's her complaint? That it ended? Did he tire of her? Is she ticked because her 'crazy'' six year lifestyle was interrupted too soon.
Should I read the lengthy article... and come to the same conclusion?
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Hey, Grunman, cheer up. This article is purely for entertainment purposes only not for in-depth evaluation.
Have a great Sunday. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman:
Who do you think declares it then? The ones that want it or the group who doesn't? I go with former, those that hate Gaddafi US/EU. Or is it that you dont see it as a declaration of war?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Well if the Colonel wants to appear unintimidated then he might declare war if the west announces a no fly zone. But if he does this then he may be playing into the U.S's and others hand who probably will set him up on a Gulf of Tonkin type charge. But, he can declare war and not attack anything the cowboys have thereby not giving the gunslingers reasons to attack simply because of a no fly zone. He can take his time and root out the discontents by using ground forces, that is, killing them at a snail's pace--on the ground--so as not to rile up the western cowboys who undoubtedly would have to act much more quickly to save face if the Colonel became impatient and wanted to end everything suddenly by attacking in overwhelming force...assuming he has this type force of course.
In this case a no fly zone won't be the issue. Khaddafi will still be in power and the cowboys can say ho hum, at least they prevented wholesale killing by the intimidation factor, i.e., no fly zone; they'll simply settle for that small scale killing noted above, even if it takes the colonel several more weeks of struggle.
The oil prices will settle but the speculators and the oil companies will be mad because their run on money will have stopped at some time much too soon for their interests.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
THE ROVING EYE
War porn is back in Libya
By Pepe Escobar
Forget "democracy"; Libya, unlike Egypt and Tunisia, is an oil power. Many a plush office of United States and European elites will be salivating at the prospect of taking advantage of a small window of opportunity afforded by the anti-Muammar Gaddafi revolution to establish - or expand - a beachhead. There's all that oil, of course. There's also the allure, close by, of the US$10 billion, 4,128 kilometer long Trans-Saharan gas pipeline from Nigeria to Algeria, expected to be online in 2015.
Thus the world, once again, is reintroduced to war porn, history as farce, a bad rerun of "shock and awe". Everyone - the United Nations, the US, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) - is up in arms about a no-fly zone. Special forces are on the move, as are US warships.
Breathless US senators compare Libya with Yugoslavia. Tony "The Return of the Living Dead" Blair is back in missionary zeal form, its mirror image played by British Prime Minister David Cameron, duly mocked by Gaddafi's son, the "modernizer" Saif al-Islam. There's fear of "chemical weapons". Welcome back to humanitarian imperialism - on crack.
And like a character straight out of Scary Movie, even war-on-Iraq-architect Paul Wolfowitz wants a NATO-enforced no-fly zone, as the Foreign Policy Initiative - the son of the Project for the New American Century - publishes an open letter to US President Barack Obama demanding military boots to turn Libya into a protectorate ruled by NATO in the name of the "international community".
The mere fact that all these people are supporting the Libya protesters makes it all stink to - over the rainbow - high heavens. Sending His Awesomeness Charlie Sheen to whack Gaddafi would seem more believable.
It was up to Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to introduce a note of sanity, describing the notion of a no-fly zone over Libya as "superfluous". This means in practice a Russian veto at the UN Security Council. Earlier, China had already changed the conversation.
In their Sheen-style hysteria - with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton desperately offering "any kind of assistance" - Western politicians did not bother to consult with the people who are risking their lives to overthrow Gaddafi. At a press conference in Benghazi, the spokesman for the brand new Libyan National Transitional Council, human-rights lawyer Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, was blunt, "We are against any foreign intervention or military intervention in our internal affairs ... This revolution will be completed by our people."
The people in question, by the way, are protecting Libya's oil industry, and even loading supertankers destined to Europe and China. The people in question do not have much to do with opportunists such as former Gaddafi-appointed justice minister Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, who wants a provisional government to prepare for elections in three months. Moreover, the people in question, as al-Jazeera has reported, have been saying they don't want foreign intervention for a week now.
The Benghazi council prefers to describe itself as the "political face for the revolution", organizing civic affairs, and not established as an interim government. Meanwhile, a military committee of officer defectors is trying to set up a skeleton army to be sent to Tripoli; through tribal contacts, they seem to have already infiltrated small cells into the vicinity of Tripoli.
Whether this self-appointed revolutionary leadership - splinter elements of the established elite, the tribes and the army - will be the face of a new regime, or whether they will be overtaken by younger, more radical activists, remains to be seen.
Shower me with hypocrisy
None of this anyway has placated the hysterical Western narrative, according to which there are only two options for Libya; to become a failed state or the next al-Qaeda haven. How ironic. Up to 2008, Libya was dismissed by Washington as a rogue state and an unofficial member of the "axis of evil" that originally included Iraq, Iran and North Korea.
As former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark confirmed years ago, Libya was on the Pentagon/neo-conservative official list to be taken out after Iraq, along with Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Syria and the holy grail, Iran. But as soon as wily Gaddafi became an official partner in the "war on terror", Libya was instantly upgraded by the George W Bush administration to civilized status.
As for the UN Security Council unanimously deciding to refer the Gaddafi regime to the International Criminal Court (ICC), it's useful to remember that the ICC was created in mid-1998 by 148 countries meeting in Rome. The final vote was 120 to seven. The seven that voted against the ICC were China, Iraq, Israel, Qatar and Yemen, plus Libya and ... the United States. Incidentally, Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in two weeks around new year 2008 than Gaddafi these past two weeks.
This tsunami of hypocrisy inevitably raises the question; what does the West know about the Arab world anyway? Recently the executive board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) praised a certain northern African country for its "ambitious reform agenda" and its "strong macroeconomic performance and the progress on enhancing the role of the private sector". The country was Libya. The IMF had only forgotten to talk to the main actors: the Libyan people.
And what to make of Anthony Giddens - the guru behind Blair's "Third Way" - who in March 2007 penned an article to The Guardian saying "Libya is not especially repressive" and "Gaddafi seems genuinely popular"? Giddens bet that Libya "in two or three decades' time would be a Norway of North Africa: prosperous, egalitarian and forward-looking". Tripoli may well be on its way to Oslo - but without the Gaddafi clan.
The US, Britain and France are so awkwardly maneuvering for best post-Gaddafi positioning it's almost comical to watch. Beijing, even against its will, waited until extra time to condemn Gaddafi at the UN, but made sure it was following the lead of African and Asian countries (smart move, as in "we listen to the voices of the South"). Beijing is extremely worried that its complex economic relationship with oil source Libya does not unravel (amid all the hoopla about fleeing expats, China quietly evacuated no less than 30,000 Chinese workers in the oil and construction business).
Once again; it's the oil, stupid. A crucial strategic factor for Washington is that post-Gaddafi Libya may represent a bonanza for US Big Oil - which for the moment has been kept away from Libya. Under this perspective, Libya may be considered as yet one more battleground between the US and China. But while China goes for energy and business deals in Africa, the US bets on its forces in AFRICOM as well as NATO advancing "military cooperation" with the African Union.
The anti-Gaddafi movement must remain on maximum alert. It's fair to argue the absolute majority of Libyans are using all their resourcefulness and are wiling to undergo any sacrifice to build a united, transparent and democratic country. And they will do it on their own. They may accept humanitarian help. As for war porn, throw it in the dustbin of history.
Civil War is happening in Libya and it seems the media is so biased it's rediculos.
Let me just say I support peaceful revolutions like Egypt. I really can't get around how the Libyan people are killing ANY Black African(Libyan or Sub Saharan) and claim them as mercenaries as there excuse....Thats just pathetic. You hope the Libyans would learn from Egypt how to do a Revolution and fight for freedom without all the senseless violence and hatred. It's time Lybians see that Africans are there brothers and sisters and stop all the killings.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Big difference King. In Egypt the Army refused to kill the people and decided babaMu had to go to regain some sort of peace in this country, The Egyptian army are for the country and people first. In Libya the Army refused to kill the people so the nutter shipped in a load from other African countries that will have no problems with mass killings, hence the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers shipped in to do nutters killing for him. At this rate Libya will have no Libyans left, a head nutter and a mass of African killing machines. Someone needs to aim at this nutters third eye and fire.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
So you have Proof that the whole Lybian army is fighting for the Rebels??
If it's just "Hired" Killers from Africa then Ghadaffi should not be able to stand against the Libyan Rebels. If the Army fights with the Rebels then they should be able to rest control of the country easy then.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Ayisha
So you have Proof that the whole Lybian army is fighting for the Rebels??
If it's just "Hired" Killers from Africa then Ghadaffi should not be able to stand against the Libyan Rebels. If the Army fights with the Rebels then they should be able to rest control of the country easy then.
Peace
Rebels? In Egypt they were called 'protestors' and in Libya they are called 'rebels'? Why is that?
Where did I say the army was 'fighting for the rebels', or protestors? I said 'the army refused to kill the people' just as they did in Egypt.
As you are onto your normal twist and turn of words I will go get some work done, can't waste all day with someone with such little comprehension skills and lack of tollerance.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
Sigh
Wow Ayisha you really can't help yourself You love to twist peoples word to quell your ego. How was I "Twisting" your words??? You said that the Lybian Army refused to fire upon the protestors...That would mean they sided with the Protestors Yes No??
Rebels is what they call them on Aljazeera and other News information. Did not mean any disrespect just trying to understand what side the Lybian army is on. Is the Army just standing around doing nothing since they decided not to kill the "protestors"?? You think you know so much then it would be easy to post an article that is speaking about simply what the Libyan Army is doing.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Ayisha:In Libya the Army refused to kill the people
quote:King: So you have Proof that the whole Lybian army is fighting for the Rebels??
Ayisha: Where did I say the army was 'fighting for the rebels', or protestors? I said 'the army refused to kill the people' just as they did in Egypt.
quote:King: Wow Ayisha you really can't help yourself You love to twist peoples word to quell your ego. How was I "Twisting" your words??? You said that the Lybian Army refused to fire upon the protestors...That would mean they sided with the Protestors Yes No??
As in Egypt they knew the people had a right to protest, it was a legitimate protest. Nowhere have I said the 'whole Libyan army was fighting for the protestors', your 'assumptions' are based on your twisting of my words, obviously something to do with your ego, not mine. The difference is that in Egypt the government did not hire other killers, they tried using their own on Jan 28th which only resulted in the entire world seeing what that government was capable of in terms of dirty dealings. When the government is gone or going or obviously corrupt to that extent the next leader is the army, who were the ones that got rid of babaMu and babaMu and Egypt were in a totally different position globally to that of Libya. The army here are of the people, for the people and to protect the country from attack. Libya has a nutcase at it's head with no army backing so has used other killers from outside countries that have been trained as killers by Libya, paid killers, mercenaries. If this had happened in Egypt then things would have turned out differently and there would be blood flowing here as there is there. babaMu was 'out of touch' with reality, gaddafi is totally insane.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
I see you are in ego boosting mode so I will just ignore your foolishness and ask you again WHAT IS THE ARMY IN LYBIA DOING??? Are they just watching from sidelines and cheering on the Libyan Protestors, or are they Actively defending the People from Ghadaffi??
It's simple Ayisha You should have proof that the Army who you claim refused to attack the people(Good Thing) are either supporting the people or Not. If the Army is not supporting Ghadaffi you must have a Article that told you this??
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Ayisha
I see you are in ego boosting mode so I will just ignore your foolishness
Good day to you King. Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
Sigh
Stop the nonsense and answer the questions.
WHAT IS THE ARMY IN LYBIA DOING??? Are they just watching from sidelines and cheering on the Libyan Protestors, or are they Actively defending the People from Ghadaffi??
It's simple Ayisha You should have proof that the Army who you claim refused to attack the people(Good Thing) are either supporting the people or Not. If the Army is not supporting Ghaddafi you must have a Article that told you this??
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
wishing you a good day is now nonsense?
Seriously have you been in a news free bubble the last few weeks?
Here is one to start you off, you go search, there are many more.
Seems they are defecting and trying to keep their own lives after many have been executed for not following nutters orders to kill their own people.
With a little time and thought you could answer your own questions instead of trying for an argument with me. You have the internet, use it.
Now do have a good day, I have to work now.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Big difference King.
The obvious difference is one is an armed rebellion and the other was not. You are a simple propagandist.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
Don't give me that you wished me a "good" day nonsense. Why would you post the smile Emoticon if you really wished me a Good day?? Never will I fall for your cheap shots or your obvious ideas of attacking the poster and not the post. Your Insults which is the only thing you have will never intimidate nor stop me from asking you questions that you know you can't answer, Hence the reason for insults.
So tell me if the Miltary is defecting then how come Gaddafi is still in control of Half the country?? You think one article about Soldiers defecting will end what I asked You? Is the army in Libya that weak that they cannot reclaim the country for the "Protestors"?? We saw the Army in Egypt refuse to attack civilians and the people ousted there Pres in a Peaceful way. How come the Army in Lybia who You claim refuse to fire against Lybians cannot have the same effect?
So I ask you AGAIN what is the Lybian Army doing if they are as you say defecting does that meen they are fighting for the protestors? Is the Lybian army that weak that they cannot affect Lybia like the Egyptian Army?
Peace
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think the proposal that Gaddafi is controlling half of the country is pushing the bounds of believability...
Technically you can't call those from the army who have defected the Libyan army anymore til Mr G's crazy a$$ has been wiped out. So I guess you would have to term them the liberation front, or such like.
Egyptian Army is a whole different ball game. Egypt has 4 armys, all capable of fighting four separate wars, theoretically. It's chalk and cheese, comparison wise. Everyone knows Gaddafi has run down Libya's national army for fear of precisely this situation, whilst engratiating himself with numerous African nations to use their people as cannon fodder.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Libyan army's strength has to be seen in the context of sanctions and long isolation form the west. Unlike the Egyptian army, it did not get billions of dollars each year for thirty years. As an important client state in the region, the Egyptian army was built up with US money to neutralize an enemy of Israel: money will continue to flow so long as you keep the peace. America simply got tired of Mubarak, like they did Mobutu etc, told the army (they controlled) not to interfere with the anti-Mubarak protesters (since there will be no "change" anyway) but give the impression it was supporting a "democratic change". There will be no such thing in Egypt. America and Israel cannot afford it.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Err I dunno, think that one would need some research there. Egypt's army has always been pretty fierce. My grandpa would vouch for that too, god rest him. Oh, the irony there.
Let's not give the US too much of a pat on the back, you can't rewrite history after all.
America may have grown tired of Mubarak, but whose to say Egypt won't have another Saddat who'll grow tired of America too? There's plenty of money within Egypt itself, oil refineries and the like, so long as it isn't deviated into dictator's back pockets, who can say what they're capable of without a US baksheesh? Heck, the military runs on compulsory service at a pitance. The difference between Egypt and Libya is precisely as Ayisha spelled out. Egypt's military, is for the people, because IT IS the people.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Libyan army's strength has to be seen in the context of sanctions and long isolation form the west. Unlike the Egyptian army, it did not get billions of dollars each year for thirty years. As an important client state in the region, the Egyptian army was built up with US money to neutralize an enemy of Israel: money will continue to flow so long as you keep the peace. America simply got tired of Mubarak, like they did Mobutu etc, told the army (they controlled) not to interfere with the anti-Mubarak protesters (since there will be no "change" anyway) but give the impression it was supporting a "democratic change". There will be no such thing in Egypt. America and Israel cannot afford it.
America didn't get tired of Mubarak, they and Israel were and are crapping themselves. They mumbled he should step down as they could see how it was going and wanted to try and stay on the 'right side', after all Egypt is a keystone in this area. America wants to play 'friends' with whoever is in power for their own agenda as you rightly implied in your final words, they cannot afford not to.
Egypt's army is not controlled by America, far from it. They can do without your money too thank you very much. If they need any they have other offers to consider but without theft in high positions this country has a hell of a lot of resources, it will be financially fine without 'military aid', or as Monkey put it, backsheesh. America will have to learn to accept there are changes going on here that could 'unbalance' those on high horses in all directions.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Keep telling yourself that BS. He who pays the fiddler calls the tune. America got tired and embarrassed of the old man, they want a new lap dog, not democracy.
quote:They can do without your money too thank you very much.
Dont be a fool, for thirty years they eat up all that money and suffered the indignity of being Israel's bitch while she expanded and oppressed a fellow Arab people. Pretty fierce my ass. In all that time there was no military coup. Why do you think that was? If you weren't so naive and self-delusional you'd add it up and see whats happening. Like idiots suffering from post-Obama melancholy you will learn, THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
مصادر ليبية: القذافي يفاوض المجلس الوطني لتأمين خروجه من البلاد
I believe it was pointed out in a recent posting in some thread or another, that rebels detained or killed "blacks" even when they were aware that the captured folk were not combatants. Any truth to this?
Should this be true, along with reports of other targeted abductions and killings of both Libyan "black" and other African "blacks", presumably under the pretext of capturing "foreign mercenaries", then anti-government movement can no longer be objectively seen as a "revolution". Racist genocide or massacre would be a fitting title.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
The Explorer
Took the words right out of my Mouth....This was what I was trying to get accross to Ayisha who thinks it's "Okay" to kill Africans because some of them are mercenary.
If it's true that the Libyans are killing African Blacks simply because of being accused of being Mercenaries then it is racist genocide. Ayisha also attacked me for Calling the Lybians "Rebels" and not "Protestors". She seems to think that no army people are fighting for Gaddafi, that it's all African Mercenaries so she justifies the attacks on Blacks because of that.
Ayisha's issues are deeply in her and she tries to quell her ego by insults and disrespect....Hence the reason why she claims she wished me a good day with a Smilie Emoticon.
Peace
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
THE US SHOULD NOT INTERFERE IN WHAT'S GOING ON IN LIBYA!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had last night a pretty long conversation with my hubby who is retired US Army and at this time still continues to work to support military forces overseas. He's fed up that his country puts its nose very much into this issue.
2 ongoing wars are not enough for America? Truly the US can't afford another one yet at this time the US Government considers all kind of military intervention.
People who now call on to support Libya's 'anti-goverment forces' (others call them 'rebels') don't even know who they are and what's in their agendas. Yet they are considering to support them with arms. It seems like the US has not learned from the past.
On the other side there are many other countries in this world in which people are being oppressed by their own regimes, they are getting tortured and killed on a daily basis and no one gives a flying f#ck.
With all the money which is spend on invading third world/developing countries, battling wars, building these countries back up these billions of USD should be better used to fix internal problems within the US. The Obama administration needs to take care of its own people at first!!!
Let the UN and NATO fully deal with the crisis in Libya if they want to. Clearly the US should stay out of there. America has enough blood on its own hands already and needs to stop playing leading superpower.
End of story.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
The Libyans are not rebels. They were initially pro-democracy demonstrators. They initially wanted more transparency, human rights and justice. The Mad Dog using brutal force illegitimately attacked unarmed pro-democracy protesters in Benghazi provoking a popular revolution. Revolutionaries is exactly what they are and to call them rebels proves lack of understanding of what a rebel is and what a revolutionary is. If the revolutionaries were merely a small contingent of people fighting the majority of the people and an authorized government they would be rebels.
The fact is they are not fighting the majority of Libya because they are the majority. Qadaffi has been reduced to his own regime protection forces and mercenaries. Qadaffi lost the confidence of many of his diplomats, government officials and most of all his people. It is a revolution of the people against a tyrant who is now seeking a safe way out of Libya for him, his family and cash. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: The Explorer
Took the words right out of my Mouth....This was what I was trying to get accross to Ayisha who thinks it's "Okay" to kill Africans because some of them are mercenary.
I beg your pardon! Where the hell did you TWIST that from? NO it is NOT ok, don't you dare try putting your racist comments onto me.
quote:If it's true that the Libyans are killing African Blacks simply because of being accused of being Mercenaries then it is racist genocide.
are you insane?? People are killing people irrelevant of colour because they are at war you idiot.
quote:Ayisha also attacked me for Calling the Lybians "Rebels" and not "Protestors". She seems to think that no army people are fighting for Gaddafi, that it's all African Mercenaries so she justifies the attacks on Blacks because of that.
BS, I didn't attack you I asked WHY they were called rebels and not protestors and I have justified no attacks on anyone black, white or sky-blue pink with spots on! This is a serious TWIST of anything I said which is plain to see by anyone that can read.
quote:Ayisha's issues are deeply in her and she tries to quell her ego by insults and disrespect....Hence the reason why she claims she wished me a good day with a Smilie Emoticon.
Peace
I did wish you a good day, does a smile mean something different to you with your racists small minded issues king. Just like you slander and attack me and stick peace at the end of your posts, hypocrite.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
ayisha
Is this Not YOUR words?:Did you say this or is it my imagination?: Libya has a nutcase at it's head with no army backing so has used other killers from outside countries that have been trained as killers by Libya, paid killers, mercenaries.
Again ayisha YOUR words: Army refused to kill the people so the nutter shipped in a load from other African countries that will have no problems with mass killings, hence the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers shipped in to do nutters killing for him. At this rate Libya will have no Libyans left, a head nutter and a mass of African killing machines. Someone needs to aim at this nutters third eye and fire.
Also is this not YOUR Words again: Rebels? In Egypt they were called 'protestors' and in Libya they are called 'rebels'? Why is that?
Nothing hypocritical of any thing I have said. The smile that you Used was the roll of the eyes. How can anyone not take it as you being sarcastic. You have deep seated issues that you really need to work out....For how long have I spoken with you and you still think your insults have ANY effect. Just have to laugh at you BAhahahhahaha. Really ayisha you start attacks on every person that has a different stance then you. Glad to see some things stay the same.
Also please post a post from me slandering you. Thanks
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: ayisha
Is this Not YOUR words?:Did you say this or is it my imagination?: Libya has a nutcase at it's head with no army backing so has used other killers from outside countries that have been trained as killers by Libya, paid killers, mercenaries.
Again ayisha YOUR words: Army refused to kill the people so the nutter shipped in a load from other African countries that will have no problems with mass killings, hence the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers shipped in to do nutters killing for him. At this rate Libya will have no Libyans left, a head nutter and a mass of African killing machines. Someone needs to aim at this nutters third eye and fire.
Notice it was YOUR claim about killing 'any blacks', not mine. The ONLY time I have used the word Black is when quoting YOU. I was trying to explain to the stupid about what's going on, but you cannot get past the skin colour. The racist comment was yours.
quote:Also is this not YOUR Words again: Rebels? In Egypt they were called 'protestors' and in Libya they are called 'rebels'? Why is that?
so where is that an 'attack' King, it's a QUESTION.
quote:Nothing hypocritical of any thing I have said. The smile that you Used was the roll of the eyes. How can anyone not take it as you being sarcastic. You have deep seated issues that you really need to work out....
The roll of the eyes was at the quote of yours which I didn't waste time replying to but wished you a good day. Sorry you are so wrapped up in your issues with ME that you missed that.
quote:For how long have I spoken with you and you still think your insults have ANY effect. Just have to laugh at you BAhahahhahaha. Really ayisha you start attacks on every person that has a different stance then you. Glad to see some things stay the same.
Again no attack from me but as nomal from you. It is impossible to have any sort of discussion with you without you twisting words, as has been shown here.
quote:Also please post a post from me slandering you. Thanks
There are plenty in this thread, I don't have time to waste finding things you demand.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
The reports that I have seen, speak of targeting of "Blacks", Libyan or not. In fact some of these have already been posted in previous pages of this thread. Are we to assume that these are false statements, with images of "Blacks" - Libyan and not -- rushing to leave harassment and violence? I'm not hearing reports of "whites" -- Libyans or not, being selectively targeted, and their rushing out of the country as a result. It would be one thing if they simply attacked what is perceived to be "sub-Saharan blacks", but Libyan "blacks" are also targets of this.
As one poster already kind'a hinted on, in journalistic jargon, "rebels" seems to be a reference to "armed" opposition groups who may go in semi-organized gangs, rather than peaceful protesters whom may have lesser coordination amongst themselves.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
This is my words that you took offence too:Took the words right out of my Mouth....This was what I was trying to get accross to Ayisha who thinks it's "Okay" to kill Africans because some of them are mercenary.
In the next Paragraph I said IF African Blacks are being killed simply because they are African Blacks then it's genocide. This was your responce: are you insane?? People are killing people irrelevant of colour because they are at war you idiot.
I only mentioned African Blacks in the 2nd Paragraph because Explorer was saying that was what was happening in Lybia.
Unless I am mistaken Ayisha calling people Idiots, Stupid is a form of disrespect and attacks. You made the comments about mercenaries Read Again:
Army refused to kill the people so the nutter shipped in a load from other African countries that will have no problems with mass killings, hence the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers shipped in to do nutters killing for him. At this rate Libya will have no Libyans left, a head nutter and a mass of African killing machines. Someone needs to aim at this nutters third eye and fire.
^Can you really post this and then claim that you were not defending violence against Africans?
Really Ayisha you have some deep seated issues you need to work out...All I ask is for you to keep it civil in your debates with others on these forums. Insults just stalls the Learning.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Ayisha
This is my words that you took offence too:Took the words right out of my Mouth....This was what I was trying to get accross to Ayisha who thinks it's "Okay" to kill Africans because some of them are mercenary.
In the next Paragraph I said IF African Blacks are being killed simply because they are African Blacks then it's genocide. This was your responce: are you insane?? People are killing people irrelevant of colour because they are at war you idiot.
I only mentioned African Blacks in the 2nd Paragraph because Explorer was saying that was what was happening in Lybia.
Do I say King you are wrong or do I say King you are a liar here?
YOU mentioned killing 'any blacks' before I even started posting in this thread to reply to you. I have NEVER said it is ok to kill 'any black' as you have SLANDERED me as saying, I was explaining to you WHO and WHY was killing WHO. You don't seem to grasp that.
quote:Unless I am mistaken Ayisha calling people Idiots, Stupid is a form of disrespect and attacks.
but you are being a stupid idiot if you can't see it was YOU who brought up killing 'any black' and I never mentioned it. So not meant as an insult but a fact.
quote:You made the comments about mercenaries Read Again:
Army refused to kill the people so the nutter shipped in a load from other African countries that will have no problems with mass killings, hence the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers shipped in to do nutters killing for him. At this rate Libya will have no Libyans left, a head nutter and a mass of African killing machines. Someone needs to aim at this nutters third eye and fire.
yes King, read again, YOU claimed, not me, YOU claimed they were killing 'any blacks' I explained they were killing the mercenaries that were attacking them, I never mentioned colour as I am not obsessed with skin colour as you are.
quote:^Can you really post this and then claim that you were not defending violence against Africans?
Yes, It it clear to anyone who can read, except you it seems. issues mumkin?
quote:Really Ayisha you have some deep seated issues you need to work out...All I ask is for you to keep it civil in your debates with others on these forums. Insults just stalls the Learning.
Then stop twisting my words and insulting me.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by King:
I only mentioned African Blacks in the 2nd Paragraph because Explorer was saying that was what was happening in Lybia.
Remember King, I'm basing my claims on actual reports in news journals. I'm not making them up out of thin air.
Ps: I don't know what "revolutionaries" go around killing and/or abducting their working class colleagues. That is not revolutionary; that is reactionary!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
The Explorer
I respect your words. I KNOW you are not making anything up. I saw a Aljazeera report that spoke of these crimes.
Don't think I was trying to disrespect you that is not what I was trying to do. Just showing Ayisha that Lybia is not the revolution that was in Egypt.
Peace
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^Gotcha. I mean, if somebody is lying here, then it would have to be the news organizations churning out those reports. The question is, are they...lying?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: The Explorer
I respect your words. I KNOW you are not making anything up. I saw a Aljazeera report that spoke of these crimes.
Don't think I was trying to disrespect you that is not what I was trying to do. Just showing Ayisha that Lybia is not the revolution that was in Egypt.
Peace
I started posting in this thread with the words "Big difference King." telling YOU it was not the same as the revolution in Egypt and why. Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Ayisha
When I tried to open your link, It does not work. I admit that I said Lybians are killing Any Blacks. That was worded in my first post in this forum.
What I don't understand is how were you trying to say that THIS is correct thinking Your words again:the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers So what am I to take from this quote of yours? Please tell me so I don't repeat that mistake.
Then you claim that the Lybians were killing mercenaries...Yet there is proof in this thread if you read some of it that they(Lybians) were attacking Any African that is Black...There were also reports from Aljazeera saying the same thing.
Also how have I insulted you Ayisha?? Unlike you If you feel I insulted you then I apologize. I'm not going to cling to any attacks and claim them as Fact.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Ayisha
When I tried to open your link, It does not work. I admit that I said Lybians are killing Any Blacks. That was worded in my first post in this forum.
Thank you! the link was to your first post on this page where you said it, not me.
quote:What I don't understand is how were you trying to say that THIS is correct thinking Your words again:the Libyan people killing what you claim as 'any blacks' because they ARE the paid killers So what am I to take from this quote of yours? Please tell me so I don't repeat that mistake.
What is so hard to understand from that King? The Libyans were defending themselves against the mercenaries who were attacking them.
quote:Then you claim that the Lybians were killing mercenaries...Yet there is proof in this thread if you read some of it that they(Lybians) were attacking Any African that is Black...There were also reports from Aljazeera saying the same thing.
Then why are you accusing me of saying this? You said they are killing 'any blacks', if the Lybians are in a state of war right now defending their lives and all they know is there are paid killers from other African countries trying to kill them, what are they supposed to do? Ask for ID first? No it is NOT ok to be killing 'any blacks' as you put it and I have NEVER said or implied it is, NONE of this is ok but they are in a position they don't know who is friend and who is enemy right now, I don't suppose they are wearing badges of identification, so if the other african countries have mercenaries killing Lybians then yes the Lybians will fight back whoever they see as the enemy. Logic.
quote:Also how have I insulted you Ayisha?? Unlike you If you feel I insulted you then I apologize. I'm not going to cling to any attacks and claim them as Fact.
By totally twisting my words and what I said you have insulted me and caused an argument. I will not sit back and let you do that, maybe I should and let you have a way of releasing some of your issues but sorry thats not me, you twist my words and I will say something, you know I will and that's why you do it.
I apologize sincerely if you feel I have insulted you in some parts and for actually insulting you in others.
For the record, no war, no killing, of ANYONE no matter what colour, race, religion, sex or planet they are from is 'ok' in my book and I resent that you think it would be. The Libyans are not fighting the same 'war' that Egypt or Tunisia have and that is down to the Mad Dog, not the Libyans, Americans or planet Mars. This nutter (Gadaffi, not King ) is killing his own people as a display of power, he is insane and needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost, whatever colour they are or where they are from.
**Disclaimer, King that was a joke, not meant as an insult, please take it in the humour it was delivered in.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
King, You make some useful points. If there was no support in Gaddafi's armed forces then his regime would have fallen by now.
There are many indigenous Africans in Kaddafi's forces; some are from Libya such as the Touaregs, Tebu, and Hausa. Others paying no attention to colonial borders simply cross over to Libya as they see fit.
Let's face it North Africans many of whom are settlers into Africa are known racists and they should watch out. One day they could be expelled from the continent as Idi Amin did to the settler Asians in Uganda. Since they call themselves Arabs they already have a place waiting for them: the Arabian peninsula.
Points to note: This very fascist reactionary movement began in Benghazi in Cyrenaica(long at loggerheads with Gadaffi for overthrowing the feudal monarch Idris--hence their quick resort to the colonial flag) and not in Tripoli--unlike the Egypt and Tunisia movements which began in the capitals.
The movement did not flare up spontaneously but was a mere copy-cat imitation of what happened in Tunis and Cairo.
The fact that Libya had to import so many workers to help develop the country shows that those who are now shouting and screaming in the streets were just idle people who lived off the largesse of the state.
Gaddafi has overstayed his time. 40 years is just too much. He should have established institutions so that his policies of socialism and Pan-Africanism continue[the degenerate settlers in the North are much opposed this] could continue. Putting his sons in key governmental positions is wrong. Maybe MK was hampered by the fact that Libya is just a colonial nailing together of 3 distinct regions just a few decades ago.
And this thing about "shooting your own people" is just bogus propaganda. The modern state as an instrument of force and repression has always done it. There were many killed in Egypt by Egyptian forces themselves. The big Security unit that the Egyptians have stormed and tried to take over was skilled in the torture and killing of those who threatened the state. All the Arab states of West Asia routinely kill "their own people".
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
RawyaRageh Rawya Rageh AJE says air traffic control in Cyprus & Malta can tell the #Gaddafi jets took off from #Libya in direction of Vienna, Athens, Cairo #Feb17 27 minutes ago
quote: he is insane and needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost, whatever colour they are or where they are from.
Amazing after you say you are against killing of anyone you fail to mention that the Libyans taking up arms against the state (and hence supporters of Qaddafi) need to be stopped as well? Arent they going to kill more people after all? You are a hypocrite.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
CNN's Wolf Blitzer (former AIPAC worker) said EL Baradi was in the "fore front" of democracy movement in Egypt (!) and he will be running for president. Look out for this American stooge to "win" the next election. I said it before, THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
El Baradei.. hehehe! Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
But some of the Egyptians in the street at the height of their unrest said El Baradei is not wanted in Egypt.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by King:
I only mentioned African Blacks in the 2nd Paragraph because Explorer was saying that was what was happening in Lybia.
Remember King, I'm basing my claims on actual reports in news journals. I'm not making them up out of thin air.
Ps: I don't know what "revolutionaries" go around killing and/or abducting their working class colleagues. That is not revolutionary; that is reactionary!
Gaddafi was hiring West Africans who had worked in the petro/chemical industry to be mercenaries.
Problem with Gaddafi's choice is the West Africans had no problem go straight to the prodemocracy rebels to surrender and explain that it was either be a mercenary for Gaddafi or be shot at the border.
Gaddafi's mercenaries: Who are they, where are they from? Tripoli : Libya | Feb 26, 2011 By Gino C. Matibag
A mercenary is a person who fights or kills for money. They are sometimes referred to as "guns for hire," private armies, soldiers or warriors.
They have a long history going back all the way from the Middle Ages when Italians hired condottieri or Contractors, to King Henry II’s suppression of England rebellion in the 12th century, to modern era's America's private military contractors such as Blackwater or Xe, DynCorp and Triple Canopy.
When everything seems to be difficult to defeat Libya's strongman Moammar Gaddafi, there is an avenue that may be worth considering to pin him down: the mercenaries.
The country's army had turned away from him and joined the protesters, needless to say, it's natural that a Libyan will not attack and kill a fellow Libyan.
In a report by the ABC News, Gaddafi's mercenaries are black Africans, spoke French and were identified by wearing yellow hats.
"They are from Africa, and speak French and other languages," said Libya's emissary to India Ali al-Essawi who resigned this week.
Gaddafi employed foreign mercenaries who come from sub-Saharan states such as Chad, Congo, Mali, Niger, Sudan and even Eastern Europe, according to The Guardian.
However, Nairobi-based Thierry Vircoulon of the International Crisis Group said, "Congolese are not known to be very efficient soldiers or fighters. I’m not even sure there is such a thing as Congolese mercenaries on the market."
Vircoulon continued by saying that the Libyan leader developed a vast military network in the continent. Gaddafi is the only Arabic leader who had an African policy. There was even a time that the dictator dreamed of a United States of Africa--an acronym that would rival America's name.
Libya has long been supporting foreign militaries as explained by Vircoulon.
"The Libyan regime used to be a training area for a lot of rebel groups in the Sahel region," a place in North Africa. He has got a huge network of contacts across the continent…so that’s the reason why you have all these people who were actually very used to flying to Libya to get a bit of money and [go] back to their country. Even Nelson Mandela flew to Libya to get money in 1994."
War-torn countries have produced an ample supply of unemployed military and paramilitary personnel who are willing to do anything given the right price.
An Al Jazeera report mentioned that ads offering prospective mercenaries as much as $2,000 appeared in Guinea and Nigeria to come to the Libyan dictator, who has been shopping for private armies starting from West Africa, according to the NPR.
It is practical for the strongman to hire foreign contractors designed to kill. It is cheaper to hire them for a single, specific mission than housing and feeding the army--even with increased pay.
Mercenaries will also not hesitate to attack on people they share no country, tribal or social affinity.
According to reports, that is one reason why the military defected to the civilians--foreign armies firing on fellow Libyans angered the Libyan army.
Jose Luis Gomez del Prado, chairman of the UN Working Group on the use of mercenaries explained that there is no accountability with mercenaries whose goal is only for profit.
"Whereas if you are a foreigner and you have been recruited as a private soldier, you don’t have anything to lose. Except if Gaddafi doesn’t win, you will lose your job and your money."
Reports describe black, French-speaking troops but observers warn they could just be sub-Saharan immigrants in the army
* o o Share507 o Reddit o Buzz up
* David Smith in Johannesburg * guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 22 February 2011 18.28 GMT * Article history
Protesters chant anti-government slogans in Tobruk, Libya. Protesters chant anti-government slogans in Tobruk, Libya. Photograph: Asmaa Waguih/Reuters
There are widespread reports that Muammar Gaddafi has unleashed numerous foreign mercenaries on his people, in a desperate gamble to crush dissent and quell the current uprising.
Their origins vary according to speculation: Chad, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Niger, Mali, Sudan and possibly even Asia and eastern Europe.
The claims are hard to pin down but persistent. Ali al-Essawi, the Libyan ambassador to India, who resigned in the wake of the crackdown, told Reuters on Tuesday: "They are from Africa, and speak French and other languages."
He said their presence had prompted some army troops to switch sides to the opposition. "They are Libyans and they cannot see foreigners killing Libyans so they moved beside the people."
In a separate interview, Essawi told al-Jazeera: "People say they are black Africans and they don't speak Arabic. They are doing terrible things, going to houses and killing women and children."
Witness accounts seem to bear out the claims. One resident of Tripoli was quoted by Reuters: "Gaddafi obviously does not have any limits. We knew he was crazy, but it's still a terrible shock to see him turning mercenaries on his own people and just mowing down unarmed demonstrators."
Saddam, a 21-year-old university student in Bayda, claimed mercenaries had killed 150 people in two days. "The police opened fire at us," he said. "My friend Khaled was the first martyr to fall and seven others died with him.
"The next day, we were shocked to see mercenaries from Chad, Tunisia, Morocco speaking French attacking us ... We captured some of the mercenaries and they said they were given orders by Gaddafi to eliminate the protesters."
Amid the chaos gripping Libya, the volume of foreign mercenaries and much else remains confused. Some believe they could be veterans of civil wars in the Sahel and west Africa.
Ibrahim Jibreel, a Libyan political activist, told al-Jazeera that some had been in the country for months, based in training camps in the south, as if in anticipation of such an uprising. Others had been flown in at short notice, he said.
Some reports suggest white mercenaries have also been spotted fighting on Gaddafi's behalf. White South Africans who left the national army after the end of racial apartheid have been in demand for their expertise in various war zones, including Afghanistan and Iraq, but there is currently no evidence that any have joined the conflict in Libya.
Experts suggest that Gaddafi has plenty of options in the region. "He has traditionally had a network of skilled soldiers from all over west Africa," said Adam Roberts, author of The Wonga Coup, the story of a failed attempt by Simon Mann and other mercenaries to overthrow the president of Equatorial Guinea in 2004. "There are lots of Africans, particularly from west Africa or Sudan, who go to Libya because it's wealthier."
Mercenaries remain a potent weapon against civilian populations, despite the African Union's 1977 Convention for the Elimination of Mercenarism in Africa. Liberian civil war veterans have been hired by Ivory Coast president Laurent Gbagbo to terrorise protesters following his widely acknowledged election defeat.
Roberts added: "Gaddafi and other dictators tend to surround themselves with fighters who will be loyal to them rather than to a local faction. Foreign mercenaries are likely to be less squeamish about shooting at local people.
"They are likely to better trained – a small unit that can be relied upon. They might also have experience of fighting battles and therefore be more capable if push comes to shove."
The view was echoed by Reed Brody of Human Rights Watch. "It's hard to get your own people to shoot your own people," he said. "In this kind of situation, you can see why mercenaries would be an advantage because it's easier to get foreigners to shoot at Libyans than to get Libyans to shoot at Libyans."
Gaddafi can offer mercenaries what they want more than anything: money. Sabelo Gumedze, a senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies (ISS) in South Africa, said: "Mercenaries are purely driven by profit. As long as they make money, they're going to do it, and leaders like Gaddafi have money at their disposal."
There is a constant supply of willing recruits, he added. "In Africa the process of demobilising rebels is poor. The only thing they know is how to fight. If someone can turn the barrel of a gun into profit, they jump at it. They have few other employment opportunities."
José Gómez del Prado, chair of the working group on the use of mercenaries at the UN human rights council, said: "You can find, particularly in Africa, many people who've been in wars for many years. They don't know anything else. They are cheap labour, ready to take the job for little money. They are trained killers."
Del Prado said he has heard the reports of mercenaries in Libya from a number of sources and is "very worried".
But some analysts urged against jumping to conclusions in Libya, noting that the country has a significant black population who may simply be serving in the regular army and could be mistaken for mercenaries. These include Chadians who sided with Gaddafi in his past conflicts with Chad and were rewarded with houses, jobs and Libyan citizenship.
The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) said yesterday it had received "alarming reports" that Libyans were turning on African refugees whom they accused of being mercenaries.
Issaka Souare, a senior researcher at the ISS's Africa conflict prevention programme, said: "In the south of Libya you do have people of sub-Sarahan origin, including Hausa speakers. Some might have integrated into the Libyan army and these would probably be among the first to be deployed. It will then be easy for people to say they are foreign mercenaries.
"People started talking about this issue on the third day, but I think Gaddafi should have had sufficient resources to deal with the protests before resorting to mercenaries. How long would it take Gaddafi to get mercenaries together and deploy them? Maybe a week. So I see it as unlikely at this stage, but it could happen if army defections continue."
Yeah its too bad that West African guest workers are being recruited to be mercenaries for Gaddafi, but if they don't they are dead anyhow.
I somehow feel that the West African guest workers were recruited because of their "child soilder" background or they aren't allowed work visas without a military service possibly required by Libya. Hence Gaddafi was thinking ahead when he set the immigration policy for guest workers.
Its a shame. But I was listening to the BBC in which a Libya (not to be named) was making a phone call with a satellite phone within the ranks of the pro-democracy fighters. The Libyans were arresting West African mercenaries, who infact were surrendering and trying to explain that they had not killed any civilians.
A few more Libyans who called in to the BBC had stated the West African mercenaries who were killing weren't going after "rebels" but women and children in their homes. Most were quite young men, explaining why their killing resembles "child soldiers".
Really disgusting that Qaddafi made sure he had some mercenaries that are capable of this sort of thing.
Warning not for the faint of heart, these are gruesome images from youtube:
Really disgusting you're taking hearsay as gospel.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote: he is insane and needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost, whatever colour they are or where they are from.
Amazing after you say you are against killing of anyone you fail to mention that the Libyans taking up arms against the state (and hence supporters of Qaddafi) need to be stopped as well? Arent they going to kill more people after all? You are a hypocrite.
Sorry didn't think I would need to keep repeating it for it to sink in, see the full quote.
"For the record, no war, no killing, of ANYONE no matter what colour, race, religion, sex or planet they are from is 'ok' in my book and I resent that you think it would be. The Libyans are not fighting the same 'war' that Egypt or Tunisia have and that is down to the Mad Dog, not the Libyans, Americans or planet Mars. This nutter (Gadaffi, not King [Big Grin] ) is killing his own people as a display of power, he is insane and needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost, whatever colour they are or where they are from. "
There is also a difference between attack and defence, see earlier posts, or would you have them just lie down and die when Gadaffi's lot come in to kill them?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Do you think the opposition needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Do you think the opposition needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost?
opposition? The people are calling for the mad dog to leave, the opposition to that are Gadaffi and his boys. Are you saying they should just go home quietly and NOT do what they're trying to do, as Egypt did and as Tunisia did and get rid of their unelected false leader dictator? They tried to do it peacefully and were slaughtered, should they just give up and continue with Gadaffi leading them now, a man who will seek out any and every face that was among those opposing him?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^Ayisha, you are such a bore.... gosh!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Ayisha, you are such a bore.... gosh!
then dont read it, golly gosh. Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Aluta Continua!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Do you think the opposition needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost?
opposition? The people are calling for the mad dog to leave, the opposition to that are Gadaffi and his boys. Are you saying they should just go home quietly and NOT do what they're trying to do, as Egypt did and as Tunisia did and get rid of their unelected false leader dictator? They tried to do it peacefully and were slaughtered, should they just give up and continue with Gadaffi leading them now, a man who will seek out any and every face that was among those opposing him?
Damn hypocrite. After all your I-have-a-dream speech about nonviolence what you really want are the terrorists to continue with their mayhem so you can get what you want.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Do you think the opposition needs to be stopped before anymore lives are lost?
opposition? The people are calling for the mad dog to leave, the opposition to that are Gadaffi and his boys. Are you saying they should just go home quietly and NOT do what they're trying to do, as Egypt did and as Tunisia did and get rid of their unelected false leader dictator? They tried to do it peacefully and were slaughtered, should they just give up and continue with Gadaffi leading them now, a man who will seek out any and every face that was among those opposing him?
Damn hypocrite. After all your I-have-a-dream speech about nonviolence what you really want are the terrorists to continue with their mayhem so you can get what you want.
and what is it 'I' want, in your opinion? And who are the terrorists, in your opinion?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
Yeah its too bad that West African guest workers are being recruited to be mercenaries for Gaddafi, but if they don't they are dead anyhow.
I somehow feel that the West African guest workers were recruited because of their "child soilder" background or they aren't allowed work visas without a military service possibly required by Libya. Hence Gaddafi was thinking ahead when he set the immigration policy for guest workers.
Its a shame. But I was listening to the BBC in which a Libya (not to be named) was making a phone call with a satellite phone within the ranks of the pro-democracy fighters. The Libyans were arresting West African mercenaries, who infact were surrendering and trying to explain that they had not killed any civilians.
A few more Libyans who called in to the BBC had stated the West African mercenaries who were killing weren't going after "rebels" but women and children in their homes. Most were quite young men, explaining why their killing resembles "child soldiers".
Really disgusting that Qaddafi made sure he had some mercenaries that are capable of this sort of thing.
Warning not for the faint of heart, these are gruesome images from youtube:
There is a hole in your line of thinking, when one considers certain basic facts:
The armed Libyan opposition groups are abducting, raping and killing non-armed "black African" immigrants with families in their homes, as well as "black" Libyans [Therefore to say Libyans are not targeted, is not grounded on truth].
If Gaddifi's Libyan troops all deserted him, and his army was left with untrained "guess worker black African" immigrants, then he would have totally collapsed by now. An effective army has to be quite organized, which requires extensive training. Untrained "guess workers" as military personal would not have the organization needed to precede over warfare involving a highly trained military opposition. Furthermore, his "Libyan" troops who deserted him would have taken weapons along with them; they are not just going to tell Gaddafi that they are quiting, and then hand in their weapons to the person they are trying to get rid of. They'd take the weaponry already at their disposal with them, which would include heavy military machinery like Tanks, fighter jets, etc.
There is no justification for racist attacks against 'blacks' in Libya; none whatsoever.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
Yeah its too bad that West African guest workers are being recruited to be mercenaries for Gaddafi, but if they don't they are dead anyhow.
I somehow feel that the West African guest workers were recruited because of their "child soilder" background or they aren't allowed work visas without a military service possibly required by Libya. Hence Gaddafi was thinking ahead when he set the immigration policy for guest workers.
Its a shame. But I was listening to the BBC in which a Libya (not to be named) was making a phone call with a satellite phone within the ranks of the pro-democracy fighters. The Libyans were arresting West African mercenaries, who infact were surrendering and trying to explain that they had not killed any civilians.
A few more Libyans who called in to the BBC had stated the West African mercenaries who were killing weren't going after "rebels" but women and children in their homes. Most were quite young men, explaining why their killing resembles "child soldiers".
Really disgusting that Qaddafi made sure he had some mercenaries that are capable of this sort of thing.
Warning not for the faint of heart, these are gruesome images from youtube:
There is a hole in your line of thinking, when one considers certain basic facts:
The armed Libyan opposition groups are abducting, raping and killing non-armed "black African" immigrants with families in their homes, as well as "black" Libyans [Therefore to say Libyans are not targeted, is not grounded on truth].
If Gaddifi's Libyan troops all deserted him, and his army was left with untrained "guess worker black African" immigrants, then he would have totally collapsed by now. An effective army has to be quite organized, which requires extensive training. Untrained "guess workers" as military personal would not have the organization needed to precede over warfare involving a highly trained military opposition. Furthermore, his "Libyan" troops who deserted him would have taken weapons along with them; they are not just going to tell Gaddafi that they are quiting, and then hand in their weapons to the person they are trying to get rid of. They'd take the weaponry already at their disposal with them, which would include heavy military machinery like Tanks, fighter jets, etc.
There is no justification for racist attacks against 'blacks' in Libya; none whatsoever.
Who stated the army has left Gaddafi?
I stated West African mercenaries were hired to kill civilians and protestors. I didn't say the army left Gaddafi, they just won't kill civilians the way the mercenaries will.
Actually there are reports that over 18 months ago in the south Gaddaffi started to train Africans in the desert. Yes they are trained and equiped, as much as the army is.
This actually has been a claim within Libya for years that migrant and guest workers are often trained in the south desert. Then filtered back into the petro-chemical workforce, which is a national industry.
There might be some guest workers who are African, especially families who have been targeted by civilian Libyans and fleeing guest workers of non-Arab origin since quite a few guest workers have also been attacked on their way to the border by mercenaries. But from the reports that hasn't happened in a large scale, just a few incidents.
On the otherhand there has been literally hundreds of reports of mercenaries killing civilians. Mercenaries that are well trained and equiped. Let alone the army steps aside when the merceneries are there.
The insinuation I gather from your statements is you either feel these mercenaries from West Africa don't exist (and I posted youtube and mainstream journalism articles to prove that assertion wrong) or that you are implying that the Libyan civilians being killed by West African mercenaries deserve it because Libyans are Arab and the mercenaries are black like you.
Mind clarifying your point of view? Since you refuse to provide eye witness video or news articles to back up what you are implying?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
Who stated the army has left Gaddafi?
I guess you don't read what you cite, like this for example:
The country's army had turned away from him and joined the protesters, needless to say, it's natural that a Libyan will not attack and kill a fellow Libyan.
In a report by the ABC News, Gaddafi's mercenaries are black Africans, spoke French and were identified by wearing yellow hats.
"They are from Africa, and speak French and other languages," said Libya's emissary to India Ali al-Essawi who resigned this week.
Gaddafi employed foreign mercenaries who come from sub-Saharan states such as Chad, Congo, Mali, Niger, Sudan and even Eastern Europe, according to The Guardian...
Source: Gaddafi's mercenaries: Who are they, where are they from? Tripoli : Libya | Feb 26, 2011, By Gino C. Matibag
...which is essentially saying that the army deserted Gaddafi, which is to be expected --so it seems according to your cited article, since it is natural that "Libyans will not attack and kill a fellow Libyan."
The article is trying to justify why "black Africans" are attacked, and in doing so, is emitting broader information, which includes killing of fellow Libyans by Libyans.
quote: I stated West African mercenaries were hired to kill civilians and protestors. I didn't say the army left Gaddafi, they just won't kill civilians the way the mercenaries will.
That's not what the above, cited by you, says. Plus, why would Gaddafi hold onto an army that will not do, i.e. kill, what he asks them to do? How are mercenaries better killers than the Libyan army?
quote: Actually there are reports that over 18 months ago in the south Gaddaffi started to train Africans in the desert. Yes they are trained and equiped, as much as the army is.
And these are "guess worker black African" immigrants? You spoke of "guess worker" migrants being turned into military personnel. My guess is that by this, you were trying to justify why "guess worker black African" immigrants, and other "black African" immigrants were being targeted.
quote: This actually has been a claim within Libya for years that migrant and guest workers are often trained in the south desert. Then filtered back into the petro-chemical workforce, which is a national industry.
I haven't seen any evidence that any and every "guess worker and other" immigrants are just turned into soldiers. Nor have I seen evidence that every "immigrant" targeted in Libya are combatants. I've heard news stories of the exact opposite.
quote: But from the reports that hasn't happened in a large scale, just a few incidents.
The reports I've read, and have been also posted in this thread, suggest it is otherwise--i.e. it has become systematic to single out "blacks" in Libya, citizen or otherwise.
quote:
On the otherhand there has been literally hundreds of reports of mercenaries killing civilians. Mercenaries that are well trained and equiped. Let alone the army steps aside when the merceneries are there.
Whether mercenaries commit atrocities or not, has no bearing on non-combatant civilians who had worked for years in Libya and contributed considerably to its development, and just want to make a living with their families.
quote: either feel these mercenaries from West Africa don't exist
No, that's your insinuation, without cause. If you disagree, then cite me. Don't paraphrase or simply assume that I said something.
quote: or that you are implying that the Libyan civilians being killed by West African mercenaries deserve it because Libyans are Arab and the mercenaries are black like you.
Again, your assertion and your assumption.
quote: Mind clarifying your point of view? Since you refuse to provide eye witness video or news articles to back up what you are implying?
I already have, in previous pages of this thread. You chose not to carefully read what I wrote, and instead drive at your own assumptions, because you dislike the facts that were relayed in those posts.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
Who stated the army has left Gaddafi?
I guess you don't read what you cite, like this for example:
[i]The country's army had turned away from him and joined the protesters, needless to say, it's natural that a Libyan will not attack and kill a fellow Libyan.
I am not reading the rest of your "hobbit-like" rant. The rant doesn't make sense so I will respond to the part that does.
If you hadn't noticed the Libyan army has other duties to carry out besides just kill protestors.
The Libyan army won't kill civilians, so the mercenaries do.
There is still literally thousands of tasks, duties to perform that doesn't require killing Libyan citizens.
Still you mind answer my question.
Do you think these West African mercenaries don't exist despite youtube vids showing that they do, or do you think its okay for West African mercenaries to kill civilians?
Come on answer a question for once directly instead of wimping out.
Edit:
and this comment:
The reports I've read, and have been also posted in this thread, suggest it is otherwise--i.e. it has become systematic to single out "blacks" in Libya, citizen or otherwise.
I have went through the thread and looked at the hyperlinks, I can't find which hyperlink you are refering to.
If it was someone's post, please reply the post and note "here is the proof". that will help.
Otherwise I don't think you can point out exactly where in this thread anyone has supplied either eye witness vids or eye witness accounts or a news article that will substantiate your claims.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
I am not reading the rest of your "hobbit-like" rant. The rant doesn't make sense so I will respond to the part that does.
I am not going to read your pussified aimless rambling like a ghetto prostitute. If you can speak human, come back for business.
quote: If you hadn't noticed the Libyan army has other duties to carry out besides just kill protestors.
fuckhead, we are discussing your posts. Get with the program or STFU. Your citation says the army deserted Gaddafi, and you didn't bother to read what you cite. Other than a knucklehead, who does that sort of thing.
quote: The Libyan army won't kill civilians, so the mercenaries do.
Which goes back to you essentially saying that the army have deserted Gaddafi. If they don't kill, then they are rendered useless. Of course, there is no truth to this other than a figment of your imagination.
quote: There is still literally thousands of tasks, duties to perform that doesn't require killing Libyan citizens.
The task at the moment would be to kill armed opposition against Gaddafi. This should be a no-brainer, not something that requires you to burn whatever little is left of your braincells. What good is an army that cannot counter-attack and kill an armed enemy?
quote:Still you mind answer my question.
There is nothing for me to answer. You are the one who replied my posts, without bothering to read them, and instead cite stuff that you've hardly read either. You go onto make some funny claims that you have no intention of backing up, as evidenced by your evasion of requests to do just that.
quote:Do you think these West African mercenaries don't exist despite youtube vids showing that they do, or do you think its okay for West African mercenaries to kill civilians?
Go and read what I posted, instead making dumb comments and confusing yourself with aSSumptions.
quote: Come on answer a question for once directly instead of wimping out.
How about you answer mine. You don't seem to have a clue about what's being discussed. If you can't follow the thread, better stay in your cave.
quote: Edit:
and this comment:
The reports I've read, and have been also posted in this thread, suggest it is otherwise--i.e. it has become systematic to single out "blacks" in Libya, citizen or otherwise.
I have went through the thread and looked at the hyperlinks, I can't find which hyperlink you are refering to.
Tough luck, then. You had no business replying to me, if you can't do a simple thing as reading and following the discussion.
quote: If it was someone's post, please reply the post and note "here is the proof". that will help.
Otherwise I don't think you can point out exactly where in this thread anyone has supplied either eye witness vids or eye witness accounts or a news article that will substantiate your claims.
You go on thinking that. I care not. However, under no circumstance are you going to distort anything coming from me. You do it, you will pay a heavy price. And trust me, that is no idle threat.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
Tough luck, then. You had no business replying to me, if you can't do a simple thing as reading and following the discussion.
skimmed found this. not reading the rest you coal bin hobbit.
Since you cannot provide hyperlinks or any kind of proof its your conspiracy the other hobbits have pointed out to you.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^Keyboard porn-queen, if you are as good in reading as you are in showing photographs of your ugly cunt on the internet for everyone to see, you will be in good standing to join in on adult conversations.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: I am not reading the rest of your "hobbit-like" rant.
ROFLMAO!! Mabruk The Expolorer joins the hobbits! Welcome to the hobbit club explorer, you are among friends ROFL made my day, 'sono tries politics', typical reaction when she's confused Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ^Keyboard porn-queen, if you are as good in reading as you are in showing photographs of your ugly cunt on the internet for everyone to see, you will be in good standing to join in on adult conversations.
You don't even know if these photos exist.
You cannot win an argument by imposing your conspiracy theories on others.
Mind reposting those links to sheid some light on those conspiracies of yours?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
I know like a porn-slut pumped up on drugs, photos of your private "badies" were released on the net. Maybe this has affected your brains irreparably such that you don't know how to carry yourself among adults who are having a conversation. Address my points, or else get off my back. Your delusional fabrications will not be entertained under any circumstance.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Top U.S. Intelligence Official Tells Congress Gaddafi 'Will Prevail' In Libya
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government's top intelligence official fumbled the Obama administration's message Thursday about embattled Muammar Gaddafi's fate, telling Congress that the Libyan leader will prevail in his fight with rebel forces there. It was the latest in a series of public gaffes for James Clapper, the director of national intelligence.
Hours later, the White House distanced President Barack Obama from Clapper's remarks. Obama does not think Gaddafi will prevail, a senior administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss Obama's position on Clapper's comments. The official reiterated Obama's stand that Gaddafi has lost legitimacy and should leave power.
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: Top U.S. Intelligence Official Tells Congress Gaddafi 'Will Prevail' In Libya
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government's top intelligence official fumbled the Obama administration's message Thursday about embattled Muammar Gaddafi's fate, telling Congress that the Libyan leader will prevail in his fight with rebel forces there. It was the latest in a series of public gaffes for James Clapper, the director of national intelligence.
Hours later, the White House distanced President Barack Obama from Clapper's remarks. Obama does not think Gaddafi will prevail, a senior administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss Obama's position on Clapper's comments. The official reiterated Obama's stand that Gaddafi has lost legitimacy and should leave power.
Does it really matter what aberrant stated, obama and co distanced themselves from the bald headed man's comment (sorry don't know his name, never heard it before). What are the facts?
A major country FRANCE does not longer recognize Qadaffi as leader of Libya. What does that say?
If you are a betting man. Will you bet:
A.)Qadaffi gone 2011 b.)Qadaffi stay 2011
There's just A and B
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
France alone would be as impactive as a fly crashing against a brick wall. It would require more than France; that is how "alienation" [or sanctions for that matter] works. Otherwise, the alienated can just turn to another friend, partner or ally.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I know like a porn-slut pumped up on drugs, photos of your private "badies" were released on the net. Maybe this has affected your brains irreparably such that you don't know how to carry yourself among adults who are having a conversation. Address my points, or else get off my back. Your delusional fabrications will not be entertained under any circumstance.
Sono's clearly getting to him. I've noticed this creep does tend to throw expletives and insults like toys out of his pram when he's floundering.
I'll lay a bet he's barely old enough to vote, condescending little twit.
He ain't no hobbit.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Hehe, monkey clit's out of her laboratory cage. I think knowing your mama's grey pubic hairs and privates like bees know honey, says that I'm old enough to be your daddy, little pumpkin. You may go back to the playground, and let adults handle this discussion.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ah, so sorry. From your posts I took you to be so much younger. It's a compliment really Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: France alone would be as impactive as a fly crashing against a brick wall. It would require more than France; that is how "alienation" [or sanctions for that matter] works. Otherwise, the alienated can just turn to another friend, partner or ally.
France is huge. Just as huge as the UK and Germany. My point was 'trend', sooner rather than later Qadaffi will not be the recognized head of state of Libya. He is becoming illegitimate by the day. He is doomed. As far as how 'alienation' works, yeah he is increasingly alienated.
A.) Qadaffi Stay 2011 B.) Qadaffi Gone 2011
How would you bet your gold?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
@ monkey clit
You are forgiven, lil betty boop. You are not old enough to judge anything correctly. Don't be in a hurry to grow up so soon. Just play with your Barbie dolls and let the grown ups handle complex machines like the computer.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Aw thanks.
You gonna answer Exiiled's question though now? Be rude to make him ask three times Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
France is huge. Just as huge as the UK and Germany.
It doesn't matter if France was the size of North America. Alone, it would be immaterial. Ask the racist apartheid white South African governments; they'd tell you that it takes a lot more than one to get that sort of job done. They'd know.
quote: My point was 'trend', sooner rather than later Qadaffi will not be the recognized head of state of Libya.
We are in agreement here: That it will take more than France to put Gaddafi on ignore, for an effective alienation campaign.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey clit:
Aw thanks.
You gonna answer Exiiled's question though now? Be rude to make him ask three times ;
I know you have this undying crush on grown up figures like me. Come back when you turn 18 in 13 years. I might take a look at you, and we can see if a hook up is on the cards. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I just felt a little bit of vomit rise up in my throat...
Why would I get a crush on you, ExP? There's a wonderful zoo just around the corner from me. The primate section is second to none.
Still didn't answer the question, I notice Hmm. I see a pattern emerging.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Re: vomit. That's odd; you cannot possibly be having pms or pregnant at your age. It must be goose bumps you are mistaking for vomit.
chimpanzees are known for having a crush on human beings. Just ask the Tanzanian ladies who complain about chimp sexual advances towards them. You've been locked up as a laboratory specimen for too long. It is understandable why your hormones are supercharged. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
ExP, therein lies your undoing. You don't even recognise the difference between monkesy and apes.
Monkeys don't menstruate for starters. Indeed they could be pregnant at my age.
I can't debate with someone who displays such flagrant shortcomings in basic education. Sorry.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
monkey clit is now attempting to lure me with sexual role playing gestures -- pretending to be teacher on monkey culture. You are way too young to be thinking about these things. Remember the barbie dolls? Chew them away, if you can't play with them. This crush you have on me is leading you nowhere at the moment.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Ps: You forgot that it is impossible for you to debate. You grunt. "monkey" is a slang for pan troglodytes like yourself; don't take it too personal. If you don't like that, how does "queen kong" or "donkey kong" sound? LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You really do sound so f***** up. The good news is help is out there when you realise you need it.
Bet it's a long time since you were with a real woman, as opposed to the blow up version. It's a proven fact that porn lowers the IQ. Are you in minus points now?
That's all I'm saying.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
What does an laboratory ape know about sanity? You are in the wrong department here, bugs bunny. Intellectualism is not your forte.
Hey, let's not forgot who is grunting [hint: the name starts with an "m" and ends with a "key". LOL] after whom here. I've been trying to restrain your bestial sexual advances, apparently with little success. LOL
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: France alone would be as impactive as a fly crashing against a brick wall. It would require more than France; that is how "alienation" [or sanctions for that matter] works. Otherwise, the alienated can just turn to another friend, partner or ally.
France is huge. Just as huge as the UK and Germany. My point was 'trend', sooner rather than later Qadaffi will not be the recognized head of state of Libya. He is becoming illegitimate by the day. He is doomed. As far as how 'alienation' works, yeah he is increasingly alienated.
A.) Qadaffi Stay 2011 B.) Qadaffi Gone 2011
How would you bet your gold?
Man, you are sounding delusional.
Two weeks ago, you told us that Ghadafi was done.
Yoo informed us that he fled to Venezuela...(lies) You informed us his entire army left him...(lies) You told us he had no more aircraft pilots..(lies) You told us that only African mecenaries supported him...(lies) Then you told us that he had bombed civilians...(lies) then you told us that he was killing "his own people"... (lies) then you told us African mecenaries were randomly killing Libyan people....(Lie) Then you said they had shot one of his sons..(lies) then you announced that the rebels were already in Tripoli...(lies)
and more and more lies...
When you were caught all you had to offer in response was that you read this all from the press.
And now you begin again, this time it is that:
Ghadafi will soon be illegitimate...(lies)
What do we call you now?
Liar Liar the Exiiled? Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Sono should feel well at home in here.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
That's right, because everybody who posted here are in company.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
It all makes sense.
quote: "I am a friend of Israel, and Israel can always count on my friendship."
"The Jewish origins of the next Catholic French president have provoked large hopes in Jerusalem"
"[Israeli paper] Maariv hailed 'the French revolution which brings a clear friend of Israel to the Elysée Palace...' "
"Nicolas Sarkozy is by far the most pro-Israeli French presidential figure Israel could have hoped for"
"...seen by Jewish voters as a friend to Israel"
"...a great advantage for Israel"
"As a Minister of Interior, Sarkozy shared much common policy ground with former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu."
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: France alone would be as impactive as a fly crashing against a brick wall. It would require more than France; that is how "alienation" [or sanctions for that matter] works. Otherwise, the alienated can just turn to another friend, partner or ally.
France is huge. Just as huge as the UK and Germany. My point was 'trend', sooner rather than later Qadaffi will not be the recognized head of state of Libya. He is becoming illegitimate by the day. He is doomed. As far as how 'alienation' works, yeah he is increasingly alienated.
A.) Qadaffi Stay 2011 B.) Qadaffi Gone 2011
How would you bet your gold?
With China, The US, Cuba, Russia in the mix, France ain't HUGE. Not by a long shoot. The only way NATO can go into Libya is as peace keepers or on the DL using MI as they have been. LOL, it's not as if an embargo by France will have any huge impact on Libya.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Gaddafi Rains Rockets On Rebels In Oil Port
BREGA, Libya — Moammar Gadhafi loyalists shelled around a key oil port Friday trying to dislodge rebels who have dug in and are struggling to regroup after their fighters were scattered in a heavy regime offensive.
The rebels appeared to have a tenacious hold around the oil facilities at Ras Lanouf, taking refuge among the towering storage containers of crude oil and gas. Government forces stopped directing their fire at those positions, apparently to avoid blowing up the facility's infrastructure, according to fighters.
Instead, the pro-Gadhafi troops, positioned in Ras Lanouf's residential about 10 miles (16 kilometers) east of the oil port across a barren desert no man's land, were raining rockets and shelling along the main coastal highway, targeting rebel vehicles trying to reinforce and bring supplies to the port, said Mohammed Gherani, a rebel fighter.
The bodies of at least three opposition fighters killed in the shelling were brought to rebel-held Brega, a larger oil port to the west, bringing the toll from two days of battles at Ras Lanouf to at least nine.
The standoff in Ras Lanouf was an attempt by the rebels' ragtag force to halt a dramatic shift in the momentum of Libya's upheaval, which is shaping into a potential civil war. Last week, opposition forces that hold the entire eastern half of the country came charging along the Mediterranean coast westward, trying to push toward the capital Tripoli, Gadhafi's strongest bastion.
But the regime struck back with an overwhelming force, backed by warplanes, artillery, rockets and tanks, that over the past few days pushed the rebels back to Ras Lanouf, 380 miles, 615 kilometers, southeast of Tripoli. On Thursday, pro-Gadhafi forces barraged the port for hours, reportedly adding warships shelling from off shore to their arsenal, in an assault that stunned the once-confident rebels and sent hundreds of their volunteer fighters fleeing in an unorganized retreat.
"They came from the air, they came from the sea, and there were rockets everywhere. It was a big surprise for us," one rebel fighter, Mustafa Mehrik, a 39-year-old coffeeshop owner, said in Brega. "Everyone is worried. Today they say there will bring heavy weapons from Benghazi."
In Tripoli, Gadhafi's son Seif al-Islam vowed to retake the eastern half of the country. If government forces take Ras Lanouf, they could threaten the opposition's bastions further east.
"I have two words to our brothers and sisters in the east: We're coming," he told a cheering crowd of young supporters late Thursday. The son depicted Libyans in the east as being held "hostage" by terrorists.
The rebel force at the Ras Lanouf front appeared thinner Friday, perhaps a sign they had yet to regroup from Thursday's blow. The core of the opposition port holding out at the oil facilities appeared to be the more disciplined soldiers from army units that defected and joined the uprising.
At Brega's western entrance, facing Ras Lanouf, there were few rebel fighters to be seen at the checkpoint – usually the scene of many fighters waving their automatic weapons. Few fighters or equipment were seen passing through on the way to Ras Lanouf, except an occasional pickup truck with an anti-aircraft gun mounted on the back. Doctors in Brega said six people were killed in Thursday's fighting, raising their previous count of four.
The assault on Ras Lanouf was a sign of greater confidence in the Gadhafi camp after it first seemed to reel in confusion for the much of the uprising that began Feb. 15.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: France alone would be as impactive as a fly crashing against a brick wall. It would require more than France; that is how "alienation" [or sanctions for that matter] works. Otherwise, the alienated can just turn to another friend, partner or ally.
France is huge. Just as huge as the UK and Germany. My point was 'trend', sooner rather than later Qadaffi will not be the recognized head of state of Libya. He is becoming illegitimate by the day. He is doomed. As far as how 'alienation' works, yeah he is increasingly alienated.
A.) Qadaffi Stay 2011 B.) Qadaffi Gone 2011
How would you bet your gold?
With China, The US, Cuba, Russia in the mix, France ain't HUGE. Not by a long shoot. The only way NATO can go into Libya is as peace keepers or on the DL using MI as they have been. LOL, it's not as if an embargo by France will have any huge impact on Libya.
Not being funny, but what has Cuba got to do with anything? That's like saying China, the US and Luxemburg - in comparison France IS huge!
Oh well.... I heard tell Egypt may make an intervention. Not before time someone was allowed to, if you ask me.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Actually, I think if Europe and the US embargo Libya, Cuba will benefit by increased exchange of essentials such as medicine, doctors and other medical assistance, as well as military advisors. Gaddaffi's elite guards are already comprised of trained Cubans.
LOL, Luxemburg is certainly not to be confused with Cuba. Totally different reality.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Not a fan of Gaddafi, but if the little Vietnamese can administer an ass whooping on France, why can't Libyans handle French political alienation; that is to say, if France were to act alone, with no partners. In any case, this talk of France's political threat being the grave of Gaddafi's regime strikes me as rookie talk in politics. No single country, without additional partners, can manage it on its own to alienate a pariah state, like Libya. By putting France on that artificial pedestal, one is overestimating the French power.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
عمرو موسي سيطالب القذافي السبت بالرحيل ويرفض استقبال مبعوثيه
علم موقع "الدستور الأصلي" أن عمرو موسى الأمين العام للجامعة العربية سيطالب غدا السبت الرئيس الليبي العقيد معمر القذافى بالرحيل عن السلطة حقنا لدماء الشعب الليبي, وذلك في الكلمة التي سيلقيها لدى افتتاح الاجتماع الطارئ الذي سيعقده وزراء الخارجية العرب.
كما يعتزم موسى الذي يعتبر أرفع مسئول عربي يطالب علنا القذافى بالتنحي طواعية عن الحكم الذي يقوده منذ عام 1969, تحميل القذافى المسئولية التامة عن الخسائر المادية والبشرية للشعب الليبي وجر البلاد إلى حرب أهلية خطيرة.
وقال عمرو موسى في تصريح خاص لموقع "الدستور الأصلي" أن مقعد ليبيا سيظل شاغرا خلال اجتماع وزراء الخارجية العرب في تمام الساعة الثانية من بعد ظهر غدا السبت والمخصص لمناقشة تطورات الوضع في ليبيا.
وعلم موقع "الدستور الأصلي" أن السلطات المصرية رفضت الترخيص لوقفة احتجاجية كان يعتزم آلاف الليبيين المقيمين بالقاهرة تنظيمها أمام مقر الجامعة العربية بميدان التحرير خلال انعقاد الاجتماع الطارئ لوزراء الخارجية العرب للتنديد بنظام القذافى والتخاذل العربي عن مواجهته وردعه.
ويتواجد حاليا في القاهرة وفدان متناقضان أحدهما يمثل القذافى والآخر يمثل المجلس الوطني الانتقالي المناهض للقذافى والذي شكله معارضون ومنشقون في بنغازي مؤخرا.
ورفض موسى استقبال سلمى راشد التي عينها نظام القذافى في منصب مندوبة لليبيا لدى الجامعة العربية بدلا من عبد المنعم الهوينى الذي انشق على نظام القذافى وكان أول ديبلوماسى ليبي يعلن انضمامه للثورة الشعبية ضد القذافى.
وقال مسئول من جامعة الدول العربية إن الجامعة لن تسمح لوفد ليبي بحضور الاجتماع الاستثنائي الذي تعقده يوم السبت لكن ممثلي الجامعة قد يجتمعون مع المبعوثين الليبيين على هامش الاجتماع لبحث سبل إنهاء ألازمة.
وفي وقت سابق قال مسئولون في مطار القاهرة والسفارة الليبية إن الوفد الذي أرسله القذافي وصل إلى العاصمة المصرية القاهرة يوم الجمعة في مسعى لحضور اجتماع السبت الذي تعقده الجامعة العربية لبحث ألازمة الليبية.
وكانت جامعة الدول العربية قد علقت مشاركة ليبيا في الاجتماع احتجاجا على تعامل حكومة طرابلس مع الاحتجاجات المناهضة للقذافي.
وقال هشام يوسف مسئول الجامعة لوكالة رويترز "لا اعتقد انه سيسمح لهم بالحضور لان قرار المجلس الوزاري كان بتعليق مشاركة الوفد الليبي."
وأوضح أن الجامعة العربية لم تقطع كل الروابط مع حكومة طرابلس وان هناك حاجة لبحث ألازمة مع حكومة القذافي بما في ذلك الموقف الإنساني وسبل وقف العنف.
وأضاف "قد نلتقي بهم. لكن ليس في إطار اجتماع مجلس الوزراء لم يتحدد شيء بعد."
واستطرد "هناك حاجة لمناقشة كل التفاصيل مع المسئولين الليبيين. كل هذه الخطوات تتطلب اتصالا مع من يسيطرون على الموقف في ليبيا."
وقال أحمد بن حلي نائب الأمين العام لجامعة الدول العربية لوكالة رويترز إن هناك "محادثات ومشاورات."
وصرح يوسف بأن جامعة الدول العربية كانت على اتصال أيضا مع المجلس الوطني الانتقالي الذي يمثل المعارضة في بنغازي.وأضاف "نناقش معهم الموقف الإنساني والموقف بشكل عام وتقييمهم لتطور الأحداث وما إلى ذلك." وصرح بأن المجلس الوطني لن يحضر أيضا اجتماع الغد.
ويوم الخميس أصبحت فرنسا أول دولة غربية تعترف بالمجلس المعارض وأعلنت أنها تعتبره الممثل الشرعي للشعب الليبي. وقال الاتحاد الأوروبي انه قد يعترف بالمجلس إذا اعترفت به الجامعة العربية.
وقال يوسف حين سئل عن هدف اجتماع الغد "آمل أن يكون خطوة إلى الأمام في التعامل مع قضايا تخص حماية الشعب الليبي ووضع حد لإراقة الدماء."
وذكرت السفارة الليبية ومسئولون في مطار القاهرة إن عمران أبو كراع يرأس الوفد الليبي الذي وصل يوم الجمعة وذكروا انه يشغل منصب وزير الكهرباء.
كما ضم الوفد سلمى راشد التي عينها القذافي مندوبة لليبيا في جامعة الدول العربية بعد أن استقال مندوب ليبيا الدائم لدى الجامعة ضمن عدد كبير من الدبلوماسيين في شتى أنحاء العالم انشقوا على النظام الليبي احتجاجا على تعامله مع الانتفاضة.
وأعلن مجلس التعاون الخليجي أمس إن النظام الليبي فقد شرعيته.
وقالت وكالة أنباء الإمارات (وام) إن وزراء دول مجلس التعاون الخليجي اجتمعوا في الرياض وقالوا يوم الخميس أن نظام القذافي فقد شرعيته.
ودعا المجلس الوزاري لدول مجلس التعاون الخليجي الجامعة العربية "إلى تحمل مسئولياتها باتخاذ الإجراءات اللازمة لحقن الدماء وتحقيق تطلعات الشعب الليبي الشقيق ودراسة السبل الكفيلة لتحقيق ذلك بما في ذلك دعوة مجلس الأمن الدولي لفرض حظر جوي على ليبيا لحماية المدنيين."
وفي الاجتماع الوزاري الذي عقدته جامعة الدول العربية في الثاني من مارس آذار طرحت فكرة فرض حظر جوي للبحث
Seems the Arab League does not want to be accused of not doing anything. It asks for U.N. Security Council to impose the no-fly zone which will depend on Russia and China supporting it....
They do not support NATO intervention and only open channels of communications with terrorist racist colonial minded opposition on a humanitarian basis but no political recognition...
Read between the lines.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Seems the Arab League does not want to be accused of not doing anything. It asks for U.N. Security Council to impose the no-fly zone which will depend on Russia and China supporting it....
They do not support NATO intervention and only open channels of communications with terrorist racist colonial minded opposition on a humanitarian basis but no political recognition...
Read between the lines.
are you refering to the rebels as "terrorist racist colonial minded opposition"?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Seems the Arab League does not want to be accused of not doing anything. It asks for U.N. Security Council to impose the no-fly zone which will depend on Russia and China supporting it....
They do not support NATO intervention and only open channels of communications with terrorist racist colonial minded opposition on a humanitarian basis but no political recognition...
Read between the lines.
are you refering to the rebels as "terrorist racist colonial minded opposition"?
no, your momma.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^STFU you idiotic racist...
Libya is a black African country dominated today by the descendants of colonial Italics, migrating and rootless Turkics, and the remenants of the pink Egyptian mameluke slaves...
You cagotic strangers come into mother Africa and attempt not only to steal our heritage but you would also kill us in our own land.
That is done now.
The rupture has occurred and the whole world is looking disgusted at you rats, roaches and druggies, as you put on an ugly show worthy of the KKK.
You will never get liberty at the expense of African history and legacy. There will be no peace in Libie without justice for Africans whose land have been stolen.
Down with Al Qaeda activists. Long Live Colonel Brother Moamar Khadafi. Although he is part Turk-Italian, he respects the African owners of Libie.... unlike hungry roaches like the Turkic pink ass called Exiile...
Fiyah buuuuuuuurrrrrrn!
Lion!
But while Younis pledged to fight for Benghazi street by street, some residents were openly discussing escape routes to Egypt.
.............................................
Yassin Mawafaq, a 22-year-old baker and revolutionary volunteer, had been posing with his Kalashnikov assault rifle for the cameras, firing off round after round into the air and vowing he would rather be a martyr than fail in his mission. Now the only thing on his mind was how to stay alive. Hunched in the back of a battered Toyota Corolla, he whispered: "A rocket landed near us. I saw a man with half his body blown off. We need to get away. We cannot stay here, we need to get away."
...............................................
On Saturday evening a group of shivering rebel fighters standing at a checkpoint in Brega got a fleeting visit from a commander in Benghazi. "Do not worry, we have 50 tanks now in Azdabia, they are coming up. We shall attack as soon as they arrive."
Yesterday the same officer, who refused to give his name, was at the main gate of Azdabia, loudly claiming that Gaddafi forces were fighting among themselves in Misrata and some had switched sides to the rebels. These tales have been coming since the uprising began and many were by now openly sceptical.
"I do not think I believe any of this any longer," said Khalid Bugaighis. "If all these soldiers are changing sides, then why are we in this position? No, it is finished here now. We need to go back to Benghazi and try and defend there. We can do street-fighting there. Maybe, in the meantime, [the international community] will bring in this no-fly zone. That will be our last chance."
Libyan military may not be very sophisticated but it can cause a lot of trouble
To intervene or not to intervene in Libya, that is the question. Indeed, the next two lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are also apposite: “Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against the sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?”
The vote for a No-Fly-Zone over Libya is expected to begin 19:30GMT. Here is a breakdown of what is going down.
1- France/UK drafted a resolution for a NFZ
2- China/Russia/India were openly against the NFZ, Russia suggested a “Cease Fire” resolution.
3- China/Russia reportedly warmed up to a NFZ resolution after The Arab League voted and endorsed a NFZ. This warming up will probably result in both nations abstaining from voting.
4- The US was reluctant in agreeing with a NFZ because it wasn't enough. There is speculation that additional language is included in the latest draft. Language that will permit military strikes against Qadaffi forces, but won't amount to boots.
5- Sources: 2 Arab nations will join France, UK and US in enforcing the resolution militarily. Sources: Egypt will not be one of those two nations.
If NFZ resolution is passed things to look into:
1. The language in the resolution.
2. Which Arab nations will participate (my guess like most others - UAE, Qatar)
Prediction :
For: 12 Against: 0 Abstentions: 3
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
UN Source: Jordan and Qatar are two Arab nations that will enforce NFZ.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Listening to Qadaffi threatening Benghazi on AJA and on split screen watching huge defiant rally in Benghazi.
While reading “Air strikes will start immediately if NFZ resolution passes UN vote”
Surreal.
Okay - Gadaffi just ended his radio speech.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
According to BBC UN Correspondent, five nations will abstain from voting. Only 9 "For" votes are needed for passage.
#UN diplomatic sources say five countries are expected to abstain from the vote on the #Libya resolution 13 minutes ago via web
Who could these 5 be? China, Russsia, Brazil, India, South Africa?
This is the draft resolution that will be put to a vote. It is basically an amendment to UNSC Resolution 1970 (2011), and the language here cities violations in that particular resolution and also includes new language that grants almost unlimted military action short of occupation.
Libya : DRAFT SCR
The Security Council,
Recalling its resolution 1970 (2011) of 26 February 2011,
Deploring the failure of the Libyan authorities to comply with resolution 1970 (2011),
Expressing grave concern at the deteriorating situation, the escalation of violence, and the heavy civilian casualties,
Reiterating the responsibility of the Libyan authorities to protect the Libyan population and reaffirming that parties to armed conflicts bear the primary responsibility to take all feasible steps to ensure the protection of civilians,
Condemning the gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions,
Further condemning acts of violence and intimidation committed by the Libyan authorities against journalists, media professionals and associated personnel and urging these authorities to comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law as outlined in resolution 1738 (2006),
Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity,
Recalling paragraph 26 of resolution 1970 (2011) in which the Council expressed its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures, as necessary, to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Expressing its determination to ensure the protection of civilians and civilian populated areas and the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance and the safety of humanitarian personnel,
Recalling the condemnation by the League of Arab States, the African Union, and the Secretary General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of the serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law that have been and are being committed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Taking note of the final communiqué of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference of 8 March 2011 and the communiqué of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union of 10 March 2011 which established an ad hoc High Level Committee on Libya,
Taking note also of the decision of the Council of the League of Arab States of 12 March 2011 to call for the imposition of a no-fly zone on Libyan military aviation, and to establish safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Taking note further of the Secretary-General’s call on 16 March 2011 for an immediate cease-fire,
Recalling its decision to refer the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and stressing that those responsible for or complicit in attacks targeting the civilian population, including aerial and naval attacks, must be held to account,
Reiterating its concern at the plight of refugees and foreign workers forced to flee the violence in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, welcoming the response of neighbouring States, in particular Tunisia and Egypt, to address the needs of those refugees and foreign workers, and calling on the international community to support those efforts,
Deploring the continuing use of mercenaries by the Libyan authorities,
Considering that the establishment of a ban of all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya constitutes an important element for the protection of civilians as well as the safety of the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a decisive step for the cessation of hostilities in Libya,
Expressing concern also for the safety of foreign nationals and their rights in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Welcoming the appointment by the Secretary General of his Special Envoy to Libya, Mr Abdel-Elah Mohamed Al-Khatib and supporting his efforts to find a sustainable and peaceful solution to the crisis in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Reaffirming its strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,
Determining that the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security,
Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
1. Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;
2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people and notes the decisions of the Secretary-General to send his Special Envoy to Libya and of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union to send its ad hoc High Level Committee to Libya with the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;
3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance;
Protection of civilians
4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;
5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4;
No Fly Zone
6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;
7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorisation conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established in paragraph 8;
8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,
9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary over-flight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;
10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;
11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above, including to supply a concept of operations;
12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above ;
The Resolution has been adopted, 10 Votes "For", 0 Votes "Against", 5 countries Abstained.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think...
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Egypt Said to Arm Libya Rebels
CAIRO—Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments—mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition—appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters. Those fighters have been losing ground for days in the face of a steady westward advance by forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The Egyptian shipments are the strongest indication to date that some Arab countries are heeding Western calls to take a lead in efforts to intervene on behalf of pro-democracy rebels in their fight against Mr. Gadhafi in Libya.
Washington and other Western countries have long voiced frustration with Arab states' unwillingness to help resolve crises in their own region, even as they criticized Western powers for attempting to do so.
The shipments also follow an unusually robust diplomatic response from Arab states. There have been rare public calls for foreign military intervention in an Arab country, including a vote by the 23-member Arab League last week urging the U.N. to impose a no-fly zone over Libya.
The vote provided critical political cover to Western powers wary of intervening militarily without a broad regional and international mandate. On Thursday evening, the U.N. Security Council voted on a resolution endorsing a no-fly zone in Libya and authorizing military action in support of the rebels.
Within the council, Lebanon took a lead role drafting and circulating the draft of the resolution, which calls for "all necessary measures" to enforce a ban on flights over Libya. The United Arab Emirates and Qatar have taken the lead in offering to participate in enforcing a no-fly zone, according to U.N. diplomats.
Libyan rebel officials in Benghazi, meanwhile, have praised Qatar from the first days of the uprising, calling the small Gulf state their staunchest ally. Qatar has consistently pressed behind the scenes for tough and urgent international action behind the scenes, these officials said.
Qatari flags fly prominently in rebel-held Benghazi. After pro-Gadhafi forces retook the town of Ras Lanuf last week, Libyan state TV broadcast images of food-aid packages bearing the Qatari flag.
The White House has been reluctant to back calls from leaders in Congress for arming Libya's rebels directly, arguing that the U.S. must first fully assess who the fighters are and what policies they will pursue if they succeeded in toppling Col. Gadhafi. U.S. officials believe the opposition includes some Islamist elements. They fear that Islamist groups hostile to the U.S. could try to hijack the opposition and take any arms that are provided.
The Egyptian weapons transfers began "a few days ago" and are ongoing, according to a senior U.S. official. "There's no formal U.S. policy or acknowledgement that this is going on," said the senior official. But "this is something we have knowledge of."..............................
كشفت مصادر دبوماسية أوربية وأمريكية أن قوات غربية تتأهب لتوجيه ضربة عسكرية ضد قوات القذافي في حالة شنه الليلة هجوما علي بنغازي "لإنقاذ المدنيين فيها من مذبحة متوقعة"، وفق المصادر. وعلمت أن جهات عربية وغربية أقامت لجنة إتصالات عاجلة مع الثوار لتحديد توقيت ومدى الضربة المتوقعة ضد قوات القذافي في حالة شنه الهجوم.
وبحسب مصادر أوربية واسعة الإطلاع فإن طائرات الإنذار المبكر الأمريكية وحاملات طائرات أمريكية وفرنسية تقف علي أهبة الإستعداد حال صدور الأمر لها بالعمل "حتي وإن لم يصدر مجلس الأمن قرار بفرض حصار جوي علي ليبيا".
وينص مشروع القرار البريطاني اللبناني الذي قدم لمجلس الأمن على "اتخاذ مواقف عسكرية فورية لمنع القذافي من شن هجوم علي اي منطقة مدنية بما فيها بنغازي".
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Military action against Gaddafi 'within hours' of UN vote
Absolute BS the whole thing!!! Some western countries are supporting armed rebels to get rid off Gaddafi and get hold of the oil all in the name of 'protecting civilians' and 'bringing democracy' - HOW LAUGHABLE.
Gaddafi will fight back big time. This Friday will go down as 'Bloody Friday' in the country's history and god only knows what's gonna happen next. I can't imagine how many innocent people will lose their lives in the next hours and days because foreign countries had to intervene.
The French are d*cks so are the British. And wow Obama you initiate your first war during your presidency. You are so toast!!! For weeks the US prepared for military intervention in Libya and got the French and the British to lead it now. Of course this world can afford another war, why not. Way to go, suckers!!!
And where are the Arabs anyway? The Arab League backed UN's 'no fly zone' proposal but why can't they deal with Gaddafi themselves??? Yeah let someone else do the dirty job.... it's absolutely disgusting what's going on there.
Thanks god Germany abstained from voting on the UN resolution and made it clear that our country won't participate in any kind of military action - not for all the oil in this world.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Go Tigerlily_misr, I just became your die hard fan.
Yes, I say, best of luck to Ghadafi, he is gonna need it now. He has been wronged and betrayed by his friends and allies. Just like Sadam. Islam Saif what a joke all your western connections turned out to be.
Oh Obama, what a disappointment you are. Yes, you are indeed a New World Order ho!
And for the old Colonel Ghadafi, I hope he gives out as much as he receives.
Lion!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
All I can say is wow.
You hope violence does not get out of hand and too many people die on either side.
If the Libyans protested peacefully like in Egypt, Then I would support them.....Sadly they went down the path of Violence and war. I also shake my head at the attacking of Black Libyans claiming them as "mercenaries".
One thing that gives hope is that on aljazeera they showed a Few Black Libyans in Benghazi.
This does seem like a Oil grab by the west and I always thought that Obama was a NWO puppet.
You need peace to have love and you need Love to have Peace.
Peace
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Wesley Clark may have given a taste of what's to come, when pressed on CNN about the passing of the no-fly zone resolution...
"When you use force, it's messy, and innocent people get hurt." Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Qaddafi Says He Will Join Al Qaeda If The West Invades
I am seriously freaked out by the events of the last few months...friends are even saying to stay away from TV etc as just not getting any work done...are others here having same problem?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Libyan FM :
“We the government of Libya as full members of the United Nations under article 25 of the UN charter, oblige by the UNSC resolution, and oblige to a cease fire, oblige to humanitarian aid, oblige to protecting foreigners and their assets....
We emphasize and agree to resolution 1973 (2011) and agree to protection of civilians and to the sovereignty of Libya”
Live on Al-Jazeera
--------------------
@Glassflower, he's unstable.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
United Nations Article 25
The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter.
"...International relations experts say the strategic move buys the regime of dictator Muammar Gaddafi breathing space as the UN-backed states must now agree on a response. Oliver Miles, former British ambassador to Libya, told Sky News: "I think he has taken a step that no one foresaw." "It is very difficult to read Gaddafi's mind but I think he sees this as a way of holding back the military attack..."
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Absolute BS the whole thing!!! Some western countries are supporting armed rebels to get rid off Gaddafi and get hold of the oil all in the name of 'protecting civilians' and 'bringing democracy' - HOW LAUGHABLE.
Gaddafi will fight back big time. This Friday will go down as 'Bloody Friday' in the country's history and god only knows what's gonna happen next. I can't imagine how many innocent people will lose their lives in the next hours and days because foreign countries had to intervene.
The French are d*cks so are the British. And wow Obama you initiate your first war during your presidency. You are so toast!!! For weeks the US prepared for military intervention in Libya and got the French and the British to lead it now. Of course this world can afford another war, why not. Way to go, suckers!!!
And where are the Arabs anyway? The Arab League backed UN's 'no fly zone' proposal but why can't they deal with Gaddafi themselves??? Yeah let someone else do the dirty job.... it's absolutely disgusting what's going on there.
Thanks god Germany abstained from voting on the UN resolution and made it clear that our country won't participate in any kind of military action - not for all the oil in this world.
Preach Sister Preach.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Some people are slow, but they always seem to catch up after the **** has hit the fan. and it always does eventually, hit the fan.
Now, Obama always knew he would be a one term President. That is the way his handlers planned it. He has succeeded in finalizing the same plan Bush was executing and is well prepared to pay the price in 2012, after which he will given a cush position in some leading corporation (perhaps Google) and make a ton of money like Clinton making the speech circuit.
Tell me you so-called black Christians; Has Obama helped your status at all in America to justify your 90% (exclusive) voter turn-out that put him in office? Do you now realize the difference between symbolism and reality? As I said; There are NO innocents!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Newt Gingrich: Sarkozy Led On Libya Because He Wasn't Filling Out A Bracket*
* NCAA Basketball Tournament Bracket (64 Teams)
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Absolute BS the whole thing!!! Some western countries are supporting armed rebels to get rid off Gaddafi and get hold of the oil all in the name of 'protecting civilians' and 'bringing democracy' - HOW LAUGHABLE.
Gaddafi will fight back big time. This Friday will go down as 'Bloody Friday' in the country's history and god only knows what's gonna happen next. I can't imagine how many innocent people will lose their lives in the next hours and days because foreign countries had to intervene.
The French are d*cks so are the British. And wow Obama you initiate your first war during your presidency. You are so toast!!! For weeks the US prepared for military intervention in Libya and got the French and the British to lead it now. Of course this world can afford another war, why not. Way to go, suckers!!!
And where are the Arabs anyway? The Arab League backed UN's 'no fly zone' proposal but why can't they deal with Gaddafi themselves??? Yeah let someone else do the dirty job.... it's absolutely disgusting what's going on there.
Thanks god Germany abstained from voting on the UN resolution and made it clear that our country won't participate in any kind of military action - not for all the oil in this world.
W
Oh god, yes thank goodness for germany. For all the difference their abstaining will make. Germany is the new Switzerland
So presumably you feel that using anti aircraft weaponry on civilians is highly commendable and would fully support further murders of foreign press as well as more airstrikes against civilians - people who just want to have a say in who governs their country - I mean, is it really so much to ask? Not to mention using disadvantaged men from other African nations as cannon fodder. Sick and twisted and evil is what that was.
Bagism is all well and good in theory, just doesn't cut it in the real world, more's the pity. To not stand up and say something is wrong is to say it's ok. The UN waited for support from the Arab League before imposing a no fly zone. Now they have it. I'm proud to be British today, thank you very much. Vive la France aussi. You want to shilly shally on the fence, well that's just fine. Personally I'd be more than happy if they blew him to kingdom come like those poor folk over Lockerbie.
The oil line... soooooo passé.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Well, so much for your "peoples revolution" in Libya. According to all you dumbasses Qaddafi was "cornered" and was suppose to have been overthrown long ago. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Dunno what you're on about mate. Just sick to the back teeth of seeing mass graves, kids being washed ready for burial, women being dragged into their homes to be raped by pro gaddafi mobs, and blokes with their heads split in two or bits of blokes laid out on a slab.
Course that was back where you did see what was going on. Now since the reporters have had the fear of god put into them feck knows what's really happening.
Take him out. I know it's against the whole UN ethos, but it would save a whole lot of hassle in the long run.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
If you think this is about human rights you are as dumb those Iraqis that thought Bush really wanted to "liberate" them. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Never agreed with Iraq. Not the second time around, anyway. Now that's just like comparing apples to conkers.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Unfair analogy? Why?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Unfair? Who said unfair? You're getting me mixed up with Gaddafi Jnr. Unfair isn't an argument in grown up conversation.
Weapons of mass destruction - anyone with half a brain was questioning that reasoning at the time. People getting blown to smitherines for wanting democracy? That's fact. It's wrong. End of.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote: Weapons of mass destruction - anyone with half a brain was questioning that reasoning at the time.
And why do you think Britain wanted a no fly zone over Libya?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Because we don't really like to see this over our cornflakes.
So you didnt buy the weapons of mass destruction argument in Iraq but you buy the human rights one in Libya? You half a brain sucker. lol
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Way to debate.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Was this a debate? Britain cares about suffering Muslims? I guess this is why they wanted a no fly zone over Israel during their slaughter of Lebanese in 2006, right? Makes sense. LOL!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So you didnt buy the weapons of mass destruction argument in Iraq but you buy the human rights one in Libya? You half a brain sucker. lol
You are attempting to argue with a Brit about an imperialistic action. History shows that is a dead-end one-sided argument. The Brits have always been what they are and their US cousins as well. Control of the middle-east and Africa is always number 1 on their minds.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Imperialistic? i.e. we're trying to build up an empire or what? In the ME?
You want to take more water with that.
We're barely a spec on the globe these days. Really, I'm flattered you find us such a threat.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
@Monkey Re: “sooooo passe”
I couldn't agree more. But don't waste your time with people who suffer from the IOTA syndrome, or the Iraq Oil Terrorist Afghanistan syndrome. It's not merely a feeble mindset but a conditioned mindset. Before IOTA it was “another Vietnam”, and before that “another Korea.” When their minds can't grasp something, the IOTA light-bulb turns on. And do notice IOTA syndrome sufferers have an affinity for one another.
Libya will continue to sell oil under Qadaffi, sans Qadaffi, today, tomorrow, a year from now, 20 years from now and so on.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
So why do you think US and Britain wanted a no fly zone?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think this is completely unchartered territory. You can't compare what's happening in the ME right now to anything that's gone before. Anyone who thinks the UN/US/UK whatever are flexing their muscles are sadly deluded. We're all bricking it - bricking it that we do the wrong thing - bricking it that we don't do the right thing. I am sorry that something wasn't done earlier, maybe it could have saved a few hundred lives. I hope it helps - maybe it won't - but it feels right at this juncture. Otherwise Benghazi would be flattened in the next seven days.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
STFU, let exiled one answer the question. You had your chance and failed.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
the No-fly zone is merely a beginning. The US is presently attempting to get agreement for direct military action. What will your opinion be when U.N. consent is given for the US to deploy ground troops to aid the rebels and join the Isrealis already there posing as Arab rebels?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
STFU yourself. I wasn't even talking to you.
Who died and made you the reply gestapo?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So why do you think US and Britain wanted a no fly zone?
To facilitate the removal of Qadaffi regime.
I believe Qadaffi forces will be “strategically targeted”, the rebels will be armed, more governments will be recognized the Benghazi government, and eventually they'll march to Tripoli.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
No shyt. Why do they want to remove the Qadaffi regime?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: No shyt. Why do they want to remove the Qadaffi regime?
Heeding the call of the Arab League and Libyans. A democratic Arab World is beneficial to the entire world.
Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
' A democratic Arab World is beneficial to the entire world.'
...... fingers crossed!!!!!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The Arab League wants democracy? LOL!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The Arab League wants democracy? LOL!
With the exception of Yemen, Sudan, Algeria and Syria (The countries that voted NO)
The rest have no choice, their people demand it. Look at Saudi Arabia, their King showered them with billions today, 500,000 low-income homes, raises, free interest loans as much as $133,000. It's not enough, they want Freedom. The people want to BREATHE in their own countries. This is something you'll probably never understand, but smart western nations are jumping on the Arab World freedom wagon.
Sex, drugs and MTV, with a little pocket money for the Arab youth. A democratic prosperous Arab World is much more peaceful (compliant) than a radical one. It will also be better for world trade. Smart western nations recongize this fact.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The Arab League wants democracy? LOL!
With the exception of Yemen, Sudan, Algeria and Syria
Oh please, even you dont believe this BS. And when did USrael and Britain "heed" anything coming from the Arab world that is not in their interest? Democracy is not, Gaza is a perfect example. And please dont babble on about Arab youth and Egypt, you sound like a boring little naive college student. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The Arab League wants democracy? LOL!
With the exception of Yemen, Sudan, Algeria and Syria
Oh please, even you dont believe this BS. And when did USrael and Britain "heed" anything coming from the Arab world that is not in their interest? Democracy is not, Gaza is a perfect example. And please dont babble on about Arab youth and Egypt, you sound like a boring little college student.
Israel has always been a special status. It's complicated. That will probably be the final chapter, and hopefully by then there will be a compromise between Palestinians and Israelis.
I read an article today about New Yorker editor David Remnick ("most influential Jewish American Journalist"), titled: Israel: The eroding consensus.
You should read it.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: It's complicated.
LOL! No its not. Its fairly simple for those honest enough with themselves to know whats going on.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Libyan government forces are entering the terrorist epicenter in Benghazi. Now the NATO imperialists cannot attack government forces there without killing the civilians on the ground which will turn them against the "rebels" there. Its all over now. They should let the "rebels" clean up and rebuild the cities after this as punishment.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Exiled: ''Sex, drugs and MTV, with a little pocket money for the Arab youth.'' Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing, I wonder if the French have better missiles than the Americans; you know, the kind that can distinguish friend and foe?
Move over Japan, Libya is back in the news; your radiation problems can wait.
Posted by Classic Doctor (Member # 6729) on :
^^
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
French Judeophile president says no-fly zone is "in the name of the universal conscience". LOL!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Anguishofbeing, I wonder if the French have better missiles than the Americans; you know, the kind that can distinguish friend and foe?
Move over Japan, Libya is back in the news; your radiation problems can wait.
Naw.
We Americans sell downgraded, cheaper versions of our technology to our NATO partners. France doesn't have the military budget to develop better weapons than the US. The US dumps a major portion of our GNP to military maintenance. France's budget is less than 1/4, not to mention all the weeping from frenchmen whenever they get lucky enough to actually hit a target..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You should check your facts. The French have a better battle history than any other country in the world, including, shock, horror, the US.
It's not what you have, it's what you do with it that counts Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh they have been known to "do" a lot with what they have, like slaughtering Muslims in Algeria. Not so much at Dien Bien Phu though. lol
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I get the impression that you guys who are against it are all from the US. I think it's the kind of mentality where meh, well it isn't on our doorstep so lets just take care of number one. I don't know how anyone could see all that's going on and not give a ****, pretty heartless, but heyho.
Bet if he went and blew up another one of your passenger planes, you'd be the first to complain.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Go to CNN. The look on the French Judeophile president's face shows that not even he believes his own BS about saving Arab peoples. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Why on earth would I go to CNN? I'll stick with Al Jazeera, thanks.
So France have 20 planes over Libya now and have made one airstrike against pro Gadaffi army. The Red Cross have just released a statement that civilians are being kidnapped by the pro Gaddafi lot to be used as human shields.
You sure you want to stand by this fruit loop?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
All this irritating chatter about which vile neocolonial power has better weapons. I say: A plague on all their houses: the U.S.( a wicked, genocidal settler nation. Just amazing that U.S. blacks--the survivors of the wicked trade and afterwards--and other blacks want to be part of that rotten moral carcass; a wicked and pompous place--with no real stomach for a man's fight. Lost in Haiti, lost in Vietnam, lost in Algeria, sold out to Hitler. I mean that little big-nose man, Sarkozy is no more than a pint-sized joke. The U.K is just another wickedly vile genocidal artist that slaughtered its way to its so-called Empire and built its riches[dirty blood money] on the blood, gore and sweat of the Atlantic slave trade. Can't see why any black nation would want to be part of the Commonwealth. Maybe just no sense of shame, just an instinctive worship of whiteness. Imagine the jokers having that Brit Queen as their head and who has held that position for more than 50 years.
The thing about Libya is that it's axiomatic that the West has never, ever supported a genuine freedom movement. Never! So those fascist Benghazi mobs are really with the vultures when they can get that kind of support.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Al Jazeera ad CNN; what's the difference? I watch both and quite frankly, not much difference. Maybe less commercials on the Jaz, that's all.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing, what ''look'' did Sarkozee have to let you know he was bs'in'?
This ain't some of that dasein philosophy is it?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Great. The black and white mob are descending once more. Beyond boring, and completely irrelevant.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
^^^^^Lamin, do you take this stuff to bed with you? If you do then you probably look like one of those scientists who say there are parallel universes but can't prove it.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Al Jazeera ad CNN; what's the difference? I watch both and quite frankly, not much difference. Maybe less commercials on the Jaz, that's all.
Because I'm British. I'm watching something in the ME. Why would I watch an American channel?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Some editing above: "France, a wicked and pompous place...."
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Absolute BS the whole thing!!! Some western countries are supporting armed rebels to get rid off Gaddafi and get hold of the oil all in the name of 'protecting civilians' and 'bringing democracy' - HOW LAUGHABLE.
Gaddafi will fight back big time. This Friday will go down as 'Bloody Friday' in the country's history and god only knows what's gonna happen next. I can't imagine how many innocent people will lose their lives in the next hours and days because foreign countries had to intervene.
The French are d*cks so are the British. And wow Obama you initiate your first war during your presidency. You are so toast!!! For weeks the US prepared for military intervention in Libya and got the French and the British to lead it now. Of course this world can afford another war, why not. Way to go, suckers!!!
And where are the Arabs anyway? The Arab League backed UN's 'no fly zone' proposal but why can't they deal with Gaddafi themselves??? Yeah let someone else do the dirty job.... it's absolutely disgusting what's going on there.
Thanks god Germany abstained from voting on the UN resolution and made it clear that our country won't participate in any kind of military action - not for all the oil in this world.
W
Oh god, yes thank goodness for germany. For all the difference their abstaining will make. Germany is the new Switzerland
So presumably you feel that using anti aircraft weaponry on civilians is highly commendable and would fully support further murders of foreign press as well as more airstrikes against civilians - people who just want to have a say in who governs their country - I mean, is it really so much to ask? Not to mention using disadvantaged men from other African nations as cannon fodder. Sick and twisted and evil is what that was.
Bagism is all well and good in theory, just doesn't cut it in the real world, more's the pity. To not stand up and say something is wrong is to say it's ok. The UN waited for support from the Arab League before imposing a no fly zone. Now they have it. I'm proud to be British today, thank you very much. Vive la France aussi. You want to shilly shally on the fence, well that's just fine. Personally I'd be more than happy if they blew him to kingdom come like those poor folk over Lockerbie.
The oil line... soooooo passé.
So you seriously believe that your country along with France and the US has the okay of the world to start an international war???
Where is your, where is Britian's compassion for the people from Darfur, Rwanda and others in the past? Where was the UN????? And where is your support for the people in Zimbabwe, Yemen, Bahrain and even now Ivory Coast then???
It's interesting to see how agressively you are supporting Britain's unjustified actions in Libya while you are turning your back on so many other horrifying situations. There is only one word for that: HYPOCRITE.
Let me tell you something: When foreign military forces will attack Libya it will cost without a doubt many more lives than the atrocities Gaddafi ordered during his 40 year of dictatorship. If Britain invades Libya it will have blood on their hands. Can you live with knowing that?
And these protesters in Libya are not peaceful (not at all to compare to the Egyptians); they are dangerously armed. Gaddafi is not out for the civilians he's out for the armed rebels which hide sheepishly among civilians.
And I guess you still believe that Britain will go and help the Libyans because of 'humanitarian reasons'..... oh boy.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: No shyt. Why do they want to remove the Qadaffi regime?
Heeding the call of the Arab League and Libyans. A democratic Arab World is beneficial to the entire world.
Arab democracy is an oxymoron.
Surely you are a big doofus and I wouldn't have imagined anything else coming from you.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Monkey,
The point is not whether its British, ME owned or not, it's whether the reporting is fair and unbiased. The Jaz is owned by some dissolute pro-Western type over in Doha--and he's just bending over backwards to copy the CNN model and their distorting BS.
On Libya, Al Jazeera is extremely biased against Tripoli. They are always interviewing some cowardly dissolute settler Arab type from Benghazi begging for that Tory pig Cameron to intervene. What utter cowards.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
TL, honestly, I struggle to take you seriously these days. You've proven yourself to be an out and out racist who doesn't think that people in the Middle East deserve the fundamental human rights you enjoy in the west. Don't tell me where my compassions lie. Don't tell me my take on Rwanda, Darfur and what not. Who made you the German envoy to the contents of my head? If you want to know what I think on other, separate, issues, I believe the conventional method of finding out is by asking.
We have the ok. Like I said to you before, if you don't stand up and say something is wrong then you are saying it is ok. The countries that abstained from voting didn't have the balls to make a stand. So. It's ok.
Those actions are not unjustified. If you want to set aside the genocide he's currently commiting on his own people - keep up the "I'm alright, Jack" mentality, there's still justification. He attacked a British plane weeks ago when we were trying to extract our citizens. That was enough all by itself.
Dangerously armed? What, like anti-aircraft weaponry and air assaults? Give me a fecking break.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Monkey,
The point is not whether its British, ME owned or not, it's whether the reporting is fair and unbiased. The Jaz is owned by some dissolute pro-Western type over in Doha--and he's just bending over backwards to copy the CNN model and their distorting BS.
On Libya, Al Jazeera is extremely biased against Tripoli. They are always interviewing some cowardly dissolute settler Arab type from Benghazi begging for that Tory pig Cameron to intervene. What utter cowards.
Do you think I'm going to get upset because you call my PM a pig? Pathetic attempt. I don't much care for him myself.
My point is that you guys think the US is the be all and end all. Again, why would a Brit not watch one of their own news teams, or a ME news team (seeing as though it's a ME story), but follow a US news team? I couldn't give a flying fig how CNN report things. I've no interest in them because I'm not American and, shock horror, there is a whole wide world outside of the US that doesn't follow them either.
I really do think once all of this is done and dusted, and this ME house of cards has scattered we will be looking at a very different world - a new world order, if you like.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: TL, honestly, I struggle to take you seriously these days. You've proven yourself to be an out and out racist
Both of you are fuking idiots.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nothing like a reasoned argument there, Anguish.
Well done.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Vive Le France. I'm proud of the international community, including the Arab League. France is huge, but so is the UK, US and other nations participating in this operation. Qatar stood up from day one, with numerous humanitarian flights helping their Arab brothers in Benghazi. You know how many jet fighters Qatar has – 10! This tiny nation stood strong from day one and despite having only 10 fighters will also take part in the NFZ. Egypt and Tunisa who are in the midst of their own chaos, who are still struggling in their own revolutions have also stepped up with humanitarian aid and Egypt a step further by arming the revolutionaries.
Props to the UAE, who have not only sent humanitarian aid from the early going, but who will also pay a financial chunk for the NFZ and other operation costs under UNSC Resolution 1973. Working in accordance with international law, and in accordance with SC council resolution, is the only way to legitimately deal with this situation. There is no shame that the US is taking a back seat to France, no shame at all. True multinational commitment should never be about ego, and it's just a great day for the international community. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Five country coalition launching strikes now:
US, Italy, France, UK, Canada.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them." - Mahathir Mohamad
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Monkey,
I said CNN distorts the news. I add that it is a silly racist U.S. outfit but Al Jazeera is stupidly trying to copy them. OK, the thing about Cameron being a Tory pig. That's a fact. I also add 2 other piggies to his pig pen too: Obama and Sarkozy. Satisfied now?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I've no idea about CNN's reporting. I'm pretty impressed by Al Jazeera's. I only switched to them during the Egyptian revolution and find them cracking myself.
The pig stuff - that's just infantile. Not even going to dignify that.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Operational "odyssey dawn" LOL I like that!
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Nothing like a reasoned argument there, Anguish.
Well done.
You gotta admit, she has a point, you are the typical British hypocrite.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Is the world still in a recession?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Operational "odyssey dawn" LOL I like that!
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Nothing like a reasoned argument there, Anguish.
Well done.
You gotta admit, she has a point, you are the typical British hypocrite.
Again, beautifully reasoned.
Don't you just love the way when some folk run out of reasons they just toss out insults instead?
Woeful.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
The pirates are bombarding Libya ... Ghadafi had 40 years to prepare for this day. What will he do now?
Squash the rats and roaches in Benghazi first, and then confront the old European pirates?
Or confront the pirates and then deal with the Benghazi rats and roaches later?
Will he cave in or will he stand and fight?
Will he be a hero or die like Saddam Hussein?
Hard call... time will tell
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman:
Move over Japan, Libya is back in the news; your radiation problems can wait.
I've noticed this too.
Posted by Classic Doctor (Member # 6729) on :
Hard call...indeed. But I believe in the example. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
23:38 AFP Operation Odyssey Dawn: A French official tells the AFP news agency that air strikes by Britain, France and the United States are being co-ordinated at a US headquarters in Germany.
Hypocrite? Pot kettle, kettle black.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
French Judeophile president says no-fly zone is "in the name of the universal conscience". LOL!
I saw this coming. Remember that little talk we had, when I told you that the US-European bunch would use the Arab League's agreement to a no-fly zone as a green light towards pushing forward a propaganda campaign that they are acting in the name of the "international community", regardless of whatever "hidden" reservations the League members may or may not have actually had about the enforcement of a no-fly zone, and you argued with me in disagreement. Well, it seems to be playing out that way, isn't it?!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: TL, honestly, I struggle to take you seriously these days. You've proven yourself to be an out and out racist who doesn't think that people in the Middle East deserve the fundamental human rights you enjoy in the west. Don't tell me where my compassions lie. Don't tell me my take on Rwanda, Darfur and what not. Who made you the German envoy to the contents of my head? If you want to know what I think on other, separate, issues, I believe the conventional method of finding out is by asking.
.....
Monkey, you are the racist artist here with your fake condescending neo-liberal mannerisms..
Who cares if you are British, or German. There is a body of international law principles that is being completely violated by the western powers and their minions.
Tonight, citizens in Tripoli are cowering from massive Western Bombardments of their neighbourhoods. What are the crimes of those civilians of Tripoli that France should be bombing them? Are they Ghadafi?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
2217: An un-named French official tells the AFP news agency that the United Arab Emirates has pledged 24 aircraft to the coalition and Qatar between four and six.
-BBC
"Qatar between 4-6" That's half their entire fleet of Fighter Jets. If one goes down, that's 10% of their entire Air Force. Go Qatar!!!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
French Judeophile president says no-fly zone is "in the name of the universal conscience". LOL!
I saw this coming. Remember that little talk we had, when I told you that the US-European bunch would use the Arab League's agreement to a no-fly zone as a green light towards pushing forward a propaganda campaign that they are acting in the name of the "international community", regardless of whatever "hidden" reservations the League members may or may not have actually had about the enforcement of a no-fly zone, and you argued with me in disagreement. Well, it seems to be playing out that way, isn't it?!
Yeh, I disagreed because I didn't think it would have been authorized by the UN, didn't expect Russia and China to abstain. Oh well.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
To be honest, I was kind of skeptical about the no-fly zone passing in the security council myself, at least in the first try. I was of the mindset that it would likely either end up with the US and its European "coalition of the willing" going it alone without a UN authorization but under the pretext that an agreement had been reached with the Arab League, OR that the US and its like-minded European allies would "muscle" [through economic blackmail or like] their way into getting a resolution passed. At least one of the talking heads I cited, hinted on these two options being used, as a means to getting the no-fly zone enforced, to be possibly followed up with ground invasion, if need be.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Tonight, citizens in Tripoli are cowering from massive Western Bombardments of their neighbourhoods. What are the crimes of those civilians of Tripoli that France should be bombing them? Are they Ghadafi?
Yes, and there's folks in Benghazi thanking their lucky stars someone in the world gives a toss. One guy was just on the phone to a BBC correspondent and when asked about what he thought of the UN airstrikes and he said, and this is verbatim "It is the happiest day of my life".
If it's more convenient for you label me a racist Lion, well, that's your prerogative. Whatever makes you happy.
You know, within less than a week of Libya starting up it was pretty clear it was all going off. I thought pretty early on there would need to be intervention to stop mad dog tearing his own citizens to pieces. You know, if I'd been proven wrong, no one would have been happier than me.
Seems there are quite a few people here who relish the thought of seeing genocides and carnage so long as their petty points are proven. I bet several of you are sitting there right now hoping one of those missiles goes astray and hits a hospital so you can wag a finger and say "told you so".
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Where Are The Arab Countries?
These Nations Voted No to NFZ in Arab League
-Syria -Algeria -Sudan -Yemen
These Nations are disqualified because they are in turmoil or don't have the means.
-Egypt – Helped humanitarian and armed revolutionaries, including fixing their old tanks -Tunisia – Helped Humanitarian -Somalia – They need more help than they can give. -Bahrain – Severe chaos -Iraq – They need more help than they can give. -Comoros – They don't have any compliant aircraft -Mauritania – They don't have any compliant aircraft -Djibouti – They don't have any compliant aircraft -Palestine Authority – They need more help than they can give -Lebanon – Non Compliant aircraft. Spearheaded the Arab call for NFZ at UN, also insisted on “no occupation” language.
These Nations Are Part of NFZ coalition or are rumored to be
-UAE – Pledged 24 Jets (F-16, Mirage 2000), humanitarian aid, and $$$$ -Qatar – Pledged 4-6 Jets (Mirage 2000), Provided Humanitarian Aid since day one -Jordan – Speculation is they will provide Aircraft -Morocco – Speculation is they will provide Aircraft
The Cowards Club
Kuwait – Cowards to date Saudi Arabia – Cowards to date Oman – Cowards to date
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Beating up on third world Muslim countries Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya is pretty cowardly. And wow, the so-called "Arab support" your "NFZ coalition" are all undemocratic US client states. No brainer. Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
IronLion says, ''Tonight, citizens in Tripoli are cowering from massive Western Bombardments of their neighbourhoods. What are the crimes of those civilians of Tripoli that France should be bombing them? Are they Ghadafi?''
Cnn's correspondent in Tripoli showed video footage of tracer rounds heading into the night sky plus the characteristic sound of anti aircraft fire. But I saw no bombardment; not even flashes of light in the distance; no whump, whumps at all. Is there any way to know if it's true. On the other hand what I saw could simply be a defense mechanism: shower the sky with ordnance as a precautionary measure; or it could be propaganda from the Colonel's angle. In which case I would use it too to change an opinion or two at this stage.
Or, maybe CNN is lying. Fox News didn't mention anything about Tripoli; MSNBC had Lockup or Lockdown on at the time; yeah I'm really interested in hearing a confessed murderer's side of the story.
Anguishofbeing replying to The Explorer:
''Yeh, I disagreed because I didn't think it would have been authorized by the UN, didn't expect Russia and China to abstain. Oh well.''
...and you based your disagreement on China and Russia not abstaining? When you KNOW how the political game is played? Why Anguishofbeing you let me down real bad.
''Beating up on third world Muslim countries Iraq, Afghanistan...''
Looks like those two countries are doing the beating up lately. Nearly 10 years for Afghanistan and nearly 8 for Iraq.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Oh my God. He's banging on about Hitler now. So far his enemy has been kids on halucenogenic drugs; the Egyptians and Tunisians; the foreign media; Al Qaeda; now there's a "Hitlerism" against him.
Who is madder, mad dog or the numpties that follow him? Don't answer that. Cuckoo.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Oh my God. He's banging on about Hitler now. So far his enemy has been kids on halucenogenic drugs; the Egyptians and Tunisians; the foreign media; Al Qaeda; now there's a "Hitlerism" against him.
Who is madder, mad dog or the numpties that follow him? Don't answer that. Cuckoo.
Sounds to me he knows Israel when he smells it.
They are the recognized successors to Adolf, and the U.S. is their acting lapdog, Aye.
The madness comes by way of the same folk who have been ejected from every country in the world over the last 1000 years due to their repeated and habitually murderous mischief. Today, we realize their historic madness is due to a genetic defect affecting their brains and their perceived perceptions of reality.
Meaning, they know not what they do for they are insane in every sense of the word. Compounding this we have all others conforming to a world view defined by insanity, following the insane.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: ...and you based your disagreement on China and Russia not abstaining? When you KNOW how the political game is played? Why Anguishofbeing you let me down real bad.
Yeh I let myself down sometimes. I still dont know what they have to gain by allowing USrael and CO. to try and dominate Libyan politics - which is why they want to over throw the regime. Maybe they have something planned. Wait and see.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Pretty Heartless that Black Native Lybians are being beat and murdered and mocked by posting dead mutalated Carcasses and the beatings of black Lybians on Youtube.
Heartless that a bunch of unemployed Arabs looked on their T.V and Saw Egypt and all of a sudden decided to demand the same thing without thinking about the consequences, start whining and begging for the West to clean their Mess up.
And Yeah we need to start to take care of our own, who gives a damn about a bunch of Lazy Unemployed Arabs calling themselves Lybians with Blood on their hands.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I get the impression that you guys who are against it are all from the US. I think it's the kind of mentality where meh, well it isn't on our doorstep so lets just take care of number one. I don't know how anyone could see all that's going on and not give a ****, pretty heartless, but heyho.
Bet if he went and blew up another one of your passenger planes, you'd be the first to complain.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Ive been trying to figure this out too. If you think about it the Media both the Arab and Western have jumped on the band wagon of the Racist Unemployed Arabs calling themselves Lybians. I mean it can be about civilian lives considering how man Civilians esp. Women and children are killed by Israelis the the complete lack of coverage on any atrocity Israel does.
Something is planned for Lybia and the Mid East by the World Banks, the IMF and the Zionists they just have not revealed it yet.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: ...and you based your disagreement on China and Russia not abstaining? When you KNOW how the political game is played? Why Anguishofbeing you let me down real bad.
Yeh I let myself down sometimes. I still dont know what they have to gain by allowing USrael and CO. to try and dominate Libyan politics - which is why they want to over throw the regime. Maybe they have something planned. Wait and see.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people.
You have contradictory logic. Let me explain, initially you claimed the West is in it for the Oil Grab, an insinuation that they are in it for the money. Now your contention is it will be too costly. You're basically saying the West is in it to make money AND to lose money. Just think things through before replying.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
A Qadaffi military convoy of at least 40 tanks and other armored vehicles were destroyed on a road leading to Benghazi, spreading over several kilometers.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people.
You have contradictory logic. Let me explain, initially you claimed the West is in it for the Oil Grab, an insinuation that they are in it for the money. Now your contention is it will be too costly. You're basically saying the West is in it to make money AND to lose money. Just think things through before replying.
And yet you try again to put words in my mouth, Doofus.
Any military action against Libya is unjustified and da*n right it's too costly. Even one dollar which is spent for that very reason is one dollar TOO MUCH.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people.
You have contradictory logic. Let me explain, initially you claimed the West is in it for the Oil Grab, an insinuation that they are in it for the money. Now your contention is it will be too costly. You're basically saying the West is in it to make money AND to lose money. Just think things through before replying.
And yet you try again to put words in my mouth, Doofus.
Any military action against Libya is unjustified and da*n right it's too costly. Even one dollar which is spent for that very reason is one dollar TOO MUCH.
Unjustified? According to you and Qadaffi?
The United Nations Security Council voted on Resolution 1973 (2011) and adopted it by a vote of 10-0.
Article 25 of the UN Chapter: All member states must comply with UNSC resolutions or face consequences.
It's not simply justified, it is legitimate.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Arab warplanes taking part in Libya mission
Four Qatari war planes were deployed in Libyan skies on Sunday, the French defense ministry said, as other Arab warplanes were moving to positions near Libya to participate in the Western military operation that has effectively established a no-fly zone.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, on Sunday said aircrafts from Qatar were moving into position near Libya to participate in the Western military operation that has effectively established a no-fly zone.
"There are forces, airplanes in particular from Qatar, that are moving into position as we speak, into theater. There are other countries who have committed, although I'd rather have them publicly announce that commitment," he said in an interview with CBS' "Face the Nation" program.
Meanwhile, aircraft from the United Arab Emirates were due to arrive Sunday at the Decimomannu air force base on the Italian island of Sardinia, which is already hosting four Spanish F-18 fighter jets that arrived on Saturday.
Ii don't understand Amr Mousa's problem. How want a no fly zone with no bombings, how does that work?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Ii don't understand Amr Mousa's problem. How want a no fly zone with no bombings, how does that work?
I believe his presidential aspirations are an influence. He could very well be the next president of Egypt. He's very smart and doesn't want the MB or any other party to use the NFZ and any civilian toll as a result against him during Egyptian presidential campaigns.
As a potential future statesmen he also has to take into account relationships with other Arab nations. Most of them voted YES to a NFZ, but there are some Arab heavyweights that voted NO. Egypt's neighbor Sudan is one of them and so are Algeria, Syria and Yemen. Two of these nations at one point belonged to the UAR.
He's a fine diplomat.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Ii don't understand Amr Mousa's problem. How want a no fly zone with no bombings, how does that work?
Now you can understand the naivete or the duplicity of your so-called leaders and new breeds. What a bastard! Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Amr Mousa is scum by my standards, and that's pretty bad.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people.
You have contradictory logic. Let me explain, initially you claimed the West is in it for the Oil Grab, an insinuation that they are in it for the money. Now your contention is it will be too costly. You're basically saying the West is in it to make money AND to lose money. Just think things through before replying.
And yet you try again to put words in my mouth, Doofus.
Any military action against Libya is unjustified and da*n right it's too costly. Even one dollar which is spent for that very reason is one dollar TOO MUCH.
Unjustified? According to you and Qadaffi?
The United Nations Security Council voted on Resolution 1973 (2011) and adopted it by a vote of 10-0.
Article 25 of the UN Chapter: All member states must comply with UNSC resolutions or face consequences.
It's not simply justified, it is legitimate.
United Nations is not the most democratic or inclusive of organizations.
4 old colonial European nations (and China) decide over the rest of the world via the Security Council. The vote of one of those nations trumps the vote of all the other countries.
Now these 4 colonial European hawks, plus Canada, Italy and Spain, launched an unjustified war of aggression against Libya.
Those 4 colonialist European powers were supported by countries undemocratic medieval monarchist Arab states like Saudi Arabia, Bharain, Yemen, and the Hezibolla-terrorist governed Lebanon to invade a stable progressive African country like Libya.
Hizbullah are Islamist terrorist extremists controlled by the Safavids.
Saudi Arabia invaded Bharain with tanks and soldiers to put down a pro-democracy movement.
Bharain has murdered hundreds of pro-democracy protesters since February.
And Yemen just killed more than 100 protesters yesterday and the news is all over the world.
These are the countries that voted to invade Libya.
Exiiled soul, you can surely see that many things are wrong in this arrangement.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Arab warplanes taking part in Libya mission
Four Qatari war planes were deployed in Libyan skies on Sunday, the French defense ministry said, as other Arab warplanes were moving to positions near Libya to participate in the Western military operation that has effectively established a no-fly zone.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, on Sunday said aircrafts from Qatar were moving into position near Libya to participate in the Western military operation that has effectively established a no-fly zone.
"There are forces, airplanes in particular from Qatar, that are moving into position as we speak, into theater. There are other countries who have committed, although I'd rather have them publicly announce that commitment," he said in an interview with CBS' "Face the Nation" program.
Meanwhile, aircraft from the United Arab Emirates were due to arrive Sunday at the Decimomannu air force base on the Italian island of Sardinia, which is already hosting four Spanish F-18 fighter jets that arrived on Saturday.
You are so desperate. Even an Arab professor at American University in Beirut recently said so-called "Arab leaders" in your coalition of the willing lacks legitimacy themselves and dont speak for the Arab people. Essentially saying they are lackeys. Nothing we didn't know already. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Pentagon: 110-112 Tomahawk missiles fired from US Ships, US/UK submarines at Libyan Air Defense Systems on the coast of Libya. These include warning systems, surface-to-air-missiles(SAM), etc.
Material costs alone: $63000000
Keep it going!!!!
The US will not foot the bill. The costs similarly to the military operations will be shared by the coalition. Cost was one of the reasons the US was initially reluctant to get involved. Obama made this clear in his speech yesterday. He made it clear that costs as well as military involvement will be shared by the coalition.
Of course the US will not pay alone for all the military operations alone; no one said that.
Keep in mind I just stated previously the material costs. Now add transportation and operation for one missile and you end up with at least $1000000. 110 of them were shot..... wow you do the math. Surely the bill of the coalition forces is growing but I guess it's all worth it for Libya's oil erm ....... I meant to say for the freedom of the Libyan people.
You have contradictory logic. Let me explain, initially you claimed the West is in it for the Oil Grab, an insinuation that they are in it for the money. Now your contention is it will be too costly. You're basically saying the West is in it to make money AND to lose money. Just think things through before replying.
And yet you try again to put words in my mouth, Doofus.
Any military action against Libya is unjustified and da*n right it's too costly. Even one dollar which is spent for that very reason is one dollar TOO MUCH.
Unjustified? According to you and Qadaffi?
The United Nations Security Council voted on Resolution 1973 (2011) and adopted it by a vote of 10-0.
Article 25 of the UN Chapter: All member states must comply with UNSC resolutions or face consequences.
It's not simply justified, it is legitimate.
United Nations is not the most democratic or inclusive of organizations.
4 old colonial European nations (and China) decide over the rest of the world via the Security Council. The vote of one of those nations trumps the vote of all the other countries.
Now these 4 colonial European hawks, plus Canada, Italy and Spain, launched an unjustified war of aggression against Libya.
Those 4 colonialist European powers were supported by countries undemocratic medieval monarchist Arab states like Saudi Arabia, Bharain, Yemen, and the Hezibolla-terrorist governed Lebanon to invade a stable progressive African country like Libya.
Hizbullah are Islamist terrorist extremists controlled by the Safavids.
Saudi Arabia invaded Bharain with tanks and soldiers to put down a pro-democracy movement.
Bharain has murdered hundreds of pro-democracy protesters since February.
And Yemen just killed more than 100 protesters yesterday and the news is all over the world.
These are the countries that voted to invade Libya.
Exiiled soul, you can surely see that many things are wrong in this arrangement.
I'm fully aware that the UN is not perfect, but nothing is, but it can be a great tool to unite nations for a cause.
We may agree on somethings, but we disagree on the principle – Qadaffi. Who is a cold blooded mass murderer, who is also a lunatic, a psychopath and a liar. I don't care how important he was to deemed towards a Pan-Africa. Such a ruthless cockroach should not be a head of state of any nation. I am more than grateful that the powers that be now see it fit to dispose of their rat who is currently hiding in his bunker like the coward he is.
Africa needs to find a sane man, and hopefully next time around not a lunatic Arab who paid his way for the title of King of Kings of Africa. I'll quote Malcolm X “By any mean necessary”, and this murderer of children, women and men needs to be removed by any means necessary. We are in 2011, and the killing of people by their own leaders is as ruthless as ruthless can be. The Israelis as ruthless as they are don't kill their own people. Qadaffi is on par with Pol Pot, Stalin and modern day Brutal Arab leaders.
He has to go. And He will go. :-) The Libyan people asked for help, the Arab League put a stamp on it, and the international community acted on it. UNSC resolution 1973 (2011) is about as perfect as perfect can be. Hopefully we will see more such resolutions adopted against other brutal regimes. And which I truly believe we will.
One less brutal dictator makes me a happy man.
Peace Rasta Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Monkey,
Don't make one of yourself. Most people here are not from the U.S. And more than that the U.S. is a despised nation--birthed as it was on genocide and any crime you can think of. If there were actually a Satan--the U.S. would be its natural offspring. Think of it genocide topped off with a cruel slavery and again topped of with a cruel KKK enforced segregation.
On to Libya: this is an axiom. Whenever historically wicked nations like France, Britain and the U.S. say YES to anything, normal human instincts will say NO. That's like a law of nature. Chew on it Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Exiiled, Yes, some people called for help but they are just a bunch of degenerate fascist Arab settlers who long that vile colonial king Idris. Imagine calling criminals, thieves and colonial murderers and genocidal maniacs like France, Britain and the U.S. to solve any problem. The must be real sickos to do that. Don't the Benghazi mobs with their fascist feudal flag know about the vile criminalities of the French in Algeria. Don't they know that the vile Brits killed of millions to establish their so-called Empire. And the U.S.--nothing but a vile racist settler state that everybody wants to excuse for its wicked crimes against humanity. The fascist mobs in Benghazi are just cut from the same cloth as the vultures from France, Britain and the U.S.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Exiiled, Yes, some people called for help but they are just a bunch of degenerate fascist Arab settlers who long that vile colonial king Idris. Imagine calling criminals, thieves and colonial murderers and genocidal maniacs like France, Britain and the U.S. to solve any problem. The must be real sickos to do that. Don't the Benghazi mobs with their fascist feudal flag know about the vile criminalities of the French in Algeria. Don't they know that the vile Brits killed of millions to establish their so-called Empire. And the U.S.--nothing but a vile racist settler state that everybody wants to excuse for its wicked crimes against humanity. The fascist mobs in Benghazi are just cut from the same cloth as the vultures from France, Britain and the U.S.
Libya is for Libyans. And they can be lighter skinned Libyans, brown Libyans or Black Libyans. I could care less about what transpired hundreds of years ago. A Libyan citizen is a Libyan citizen, whether they were born there or legally naturalized. Libya is part of the Arab League and African Union, which makes them unique.
As labeling revolutionaries “mobs”, well that is often heard from Qadaffi and his sons almost every day. The fact is they are not mobs. The fact is, it is entire cities. Take a look at this video, you call this a mob or an entire city? Benghazi is a city of 750,000 people, more than half the city is here, celebrating their liberation from Qadaffi, several weeks ago. The city of Misarata of 500,000 is the same, as are Bayda, Zentan, Adjabeya, Zawiya and MOST of Tripoli.
It's not about white, beige, brown or black. Libya is Libya. It's Qadaffi against his people, and they hail for all spectrums of colors. One of the Generals commanding the revolutionaries is black Libyan, and there are many more black Libyan revolutionary officers.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
What is Libya but a cobbled together colonial creation. That's all. But my main gripe is with those degenerate yellow hybrids that are squatting on African soil. They should behave themselves since they are guests in Africa. If they continue with their nonsense they would be expelled back to whence they came riding on the back of that stupid cult they infected Africa with since the 7th century.
Posted by Arafat- (Member # 6729) on :
^ What cult are you talking about?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Libya is for Libyans.
Yet you cheer on your roof top while western Jets bomb the country in order to control the politics there. You are a walking contradiction.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
@Exiile
Peace Exiile.
Tell me something, what are your views now that the Arab league is expressing doubts about the bombing mission, and AU has asked that the aggression be stopped. Why are your views now?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Libya is for Libyans.
Yet you cheer on your roof top while western Jets bomb the country in order to control the politics there. You are a walking contradiction.
UNSC Resolution 1973 (2011) is not against Libya or Libyan people. Military action is not against Libya or Libyan people. The current military operation is against Qadaffi and his regime. And it has been effective so far, or are you on another planet. The international community literally wiped the floor clean with Qadaffi forces. Numerous tanks destroyed, entire columns of military vehicles ablaze, entire integrated air defenses destroyed, Benghazi has never been safer. Eastern Libya with half the population has never been safer. Numerous civilians dead yesterday in Benghazi yesterday because of Qadaffi onslaught are safer today, or precisely no deaths today from new onslaught.
The Libyans asked for military intervention, it's on record. Keep your petty attacks to yourself. And yes I cheer. I just heard that a Qadaffi residence was destroyed, hot of the press. I was hoping for this, because it should hit home, when the colonel hears - “sir your home in east Tripoli was just bombed”
I give him one week.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I give him one week.
You joker! Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I give him one week before his own lot turn on him.
We'll see.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: @Exiile
Peace Exiile.
Tell me something, what are your views now that the Arab league is expressing doubts about the bombing mission, and AU has asked that the aggression be stopped. Why are your views now?
You mean AL head Amr Moussa, “this” asked about him earlier and I replied about his personal aspirations. Thinking a NFZ is going to be a neat package is wrong. As far as the AU, they need credibility which they are obviously lacking now. They need credibility, and Qadaffi as one of the main heads of such a union says a lot. I think there is huge potential there, just not today. Ridding Qadaffi from the AU is a start towards credibility.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing: ''Maybe they have something planned. Wait and see.''
I miscalculated in thinking the NFZ would only encompasss the eastern half of libya. My reasoning at the time (above) was the revolutionaries could then go back on the type of attack they already were doing without bothering about Khaddafi's airforce (mainly). So from my limited perspective I was shocked to see the entire country or nearly so under that ruling.
Well no doubt the game has changed now. In this case yes, ''Wait and see''.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Nice opinion to entertain from the comforts of the west, but...:
Africa is not ready for re-colonialism anymore. Nor neo-colonialism too. Those are busted games.
Colonialism started with lust after Africa's wealth (Libya's oil) by European powers being France, Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal, with United States being the beneficiary.
Many times, the colonialists were invited by the colonised people themselves, usually one side asking for help, to aid it in fighting off another side. The two sides ended up getting colonised anyway.
That was the blue-print everywhere. Divide and rule.
Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morrocco, Egypt, all got colonised through divide and rule. One side of the family calls in the stranger to destroy the entire land.
No more!
That is why the attacks must be called off and the attackers back off.
Secondly, you cannot win a war by controlling the air alone. Africa is not Iraq or Afgahnistan.
Sudan, Chad, Northern Nigeria, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, Algeria, will supply all the millions of men that Ghadafi needs to fight this anti-colonialist battle. Millions and upon millions will be answering the call to arms. Call them mecenaries or liberation fighters or what you will, but be sure they will line up.
The arms and munitions are there already, and more will be procured by Ghadafi if necessary from the Eastern bloc, coming through the Atlantic coast then up the Sahara desert.
The white boi cannot fight in North Africa. Look at the story of Omar Muhktar of Libya. What about the uprisings of Algeria? Do you forget the Mhaddi rebellions of Sudan?
This time we are better armed, better informed, and absolutely resolved not to give in to enslavement any more.
They know that too. Tha aggressors, they know they cannot fight "Black African Mecenaries" That is their biggest nightmare and our greatest dream. To break the pink-white boi on the battle field.
Pink white boi knows that, and he will for the life of him avoid a land battle in Africa. Without a land battle in Libya, the New World Order cannot win. If you cannot win a war, then don't even start a war.
This aggression has no real aim or objective except for spitefulness. Militarily it is hopeless.
The aggression will fail and fall into confusion within two weeks. Words, sound and power.
Watch more mystics and magical events unfold.
Lion!
March 20 2011
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Exiled says:
''I could care less about what transpired hundreds of years ago.''
Even though the seeds were sown then I will have to agree with you on this.
lamin, this is for you. Many years ago a comedian speaking from a southern perspective asked one of the guests on a television talk show just what he thought should be done for past historical events; they were talking about the Civil War in America. He then asnwered his own question by saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, ''Go dig up those responsible who now sleep in a cemetery and kick their asses, and get off me.''
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I give him one week before his own lot turn on him.
We'll see.
You wanna take a bet? Ghadafi will still be there come December 2011. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote: The international community literally wiped the floor clean with Qadaffi forces.
Please keep this BS newspeak for CNN or Faux news. You mean the USrael coalition wiped out his fleet.
quote:The Libyans asked for military intervention
You mean the opportunists in Benghazi - or one of the fractions there. I say this because even neocon warmonger H. Clinton was skeptical about whether or not there was even an "opposition" so to speak in Benghazi. They are really a rag-tag of opportunists, Islamists and criminals. Maybe a few rational, educated, genuine, democrats in the mix but we all know from Iraq experience that they will be eventually pushed aside by the loud mouth opportunists.
But speaking of "asking for military intervention", I wonder if the Muslims who rioted against French state couple years ago had called on "international community" how would that fear out?
quote: The international community literally wiped the floor clean with Qadaffi forces.
Please keep this BS newspeak for CNN or Faux news. You mean the USrael coalition wiped out his fleet.
quote:The Libyans asked for military intervention
You mean the opportunists in Benghazi - or one of the fractions there. I say this because even neocon warmonger H. Clinton was skeptical about whether or not there was even an "opposition" so to speak in Benghazi. They are really a rag-tag of opportunists, Islamists and criminals. Maybe a few rational, educated, genuine, democrats in the mix but we all know from Iraq experience that they will be eventually pushed aside by the loud mouth opportunists.
But speaking of "asking for military intervention", I wonder if the Muslims who rioted against French state couple years ago had called on "international community" how would that fear out?
Only a dumbass would cut and paste a video of an anti-government mob as "evidence" as if that refutes the argument they are mixed bag of a section of the Libyan population. Am I suppose to respond with a clip of a pro-Kaddafi mob now? LOL! It is as silly an infantile as your "Arab support" argument, you know damn well theres no peoples revolution in Libya, which is why you need USrael now to overthrow the regime. Days ago you gleefully cheered thinking the Colonel was "cornered", now you need outside help. Joker. lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Where are you exiled? Tel Avivv? lol
Only a dumbass would cut and paste a video of an anti-government mob as "evidence" as if that refutes the argument they are mixed bag of a section of the Libyan population. Am I suppose to respond with a clip of a pro-Kaddafi mob now? LOL! It is as silly an infantile as your "Arab support" argument, you know damn well theres no peoples revolution in Libya, which is why you need USrael now to overthrow the regime. Days ago you gleefully cheered thinking the Colonel was "cornered", now you need outside help. Joker. lol
The point of the videos was very simple, to display "rag-tag" Libyan "mobs." Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Iron Lion: ''Many times, the colonialists were invited by the colonised people themselves, usually one side asking for help, to aid it in fighting off another side. The two sides ended up getting colonised anyway. That was the blue-print everywhere. Divide and rule. Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morrocco, Egypt, all got colonised through divide and rule. One side of the family calls in the stranger to destroy the entire land.
No more!
So you are agreeing the colonizers knew, and still know how to ''divide and rule'' right? But I do note your ''no more''.
''Secondly, you cannot win a war by controlling the air alone. Africa is not Iraq or Afgahnistan.'''
I agree here but doesn't this revert back to your divide and rule idea?
''Sudan, Chad, Northern Nigeria, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, Algeria, will supply all the millions of men that Ghadafi needs to fight this anti-colonialist battle. Millions and upon millions will be answering the call to arms. Call them mecenaries or liberation fighters or what you will, but be sure they will line up.''
Millions of men. Really? If this be true then don't you think the ones who started the colonization and set up the rules, skullduggery and chicanery won't recognize what you say in the above comment?
''This time we are better armed, better informed, and absolutely resolved not to give in to enslavement any more.''
''Absolutely resolved'' is a tall order given that human nature according to recorded history hasn't changed any in thousands of years. I wish you luck on that one.
''This aggression has no real aim or objective except for spitefulness.''
Are you referring to the 'recent' release of the Libyan intelligence guy responsible for the Lockerbie Scotland bombing in 1988 as spite?
I have a hypothetical for you; I don't normally invoke hypotheticals because of the spinning wheels sort of thing. But what if no one was involved but the Libyans themselves and the revolutionaries ousted khaddafi. Would they be wrong? If so then why?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Not sure if these image will display, but it is cool. It's part of an Arab Spring Art Exhibition, and it's of .... who else....
Just read one of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing what do you think is the real reason bebind the western countries involvement? Is it the oil? Don't forget we've been buying his stuff since they lifted sanctions against him years ago. So what will change if he is removed from power as opposed to if he stays. The oil will continue to flow but maybe at a higher price than expected. But even analysts say it will come down in due time. So what does it all mean to you. Just asking.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: BREAKING: Almanara Media confirms from trusted sources that Khamis Al Gaddafi is dead
Do you work for the British Ministry of Truth? Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nah. Misinformation.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read on of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
You know Monkey. And I know you feel otherwise, I don't want to see Qadaffi dead, because he needs to answer for his atrocities, even though his death fasten the inevitable.
Khamis however was a solider on the streets. He commanded the "elite" 32 Brigade, and I know if these reports are indeed true, the morale of that Brigade is like s__t , just fill in the blanks.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Iron Lion: ''Many times, the colonialists were invited by the colonised people themselves, usually one side asking for help, to aid it in fighting off another side. The two sides ended up getting colonised anyway. That was the blue-print everywhere. Divide and rule. Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morrocco, Egypt, all got colonised through divide and rule. One side of the family calls in the stranger to destroy the entire land.
No more!
So you are agreeing the colonizers knew, and still know how to ''divide and rule'' right? But I do note your ''no more''.
''Secondly, you cannot win a war by controlling the air alone. Africa is not Iraq or Afgahnistan.'''
I agree here but doesn't this revert back to your divide and rule idea?
''Sudan, Chad, Northern Nigeria, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, Algeria, will supply all the millions of men that Ghadafi needs to fight this anti-colonialist battle. Millions and upon millions will be answering the call to arms. Call them mecenaries or liberation fighters or what you will, but be sure they will line up.''
Millions of men. Really? If this be true then don't you think the ones who started the colonization and set up the rules, skullduggery and chicanery won't recognize what you say in the above comment?
''This time we are better armed, better informed, and absolutely resolved not to give in to enslavement any more.''
''Absolutely resolved'' is a tall order given that human nature according to recorded history hasn't changed any in thousands of years. I wish you luck on that one.
''This aggression has no real aim or objective except for spitefulness.''
Are you referring to the 'recent' release of the Libyan intelligence guy responsible for the Lockerbie Scotland bombing in 1988 as spite?
I have a hypothetical for you; I don't normally invoke hypotheticals because of the spinning wheels sort of thing. But what if no one was involved but the Libyans themselves and the revolutionaries ousted khaddafi. Would they be wrong? If so then why?
All to say that this is wasted money and effort by a sinking empire (the western world).
They will go to Libya, they will leave Libya in a rush and they will not return again.
Ghadafi already promised that the aggressors will not dare touch one foot on Libyan soil. The Touareg enforcers are on alert.
The Toubous of Saaba, the Zimbabweans, Nigerians and Eritreans... One million man army! Waiting for white boi to come down from his Iron bird, if he dares....
They will go home soon. Beaten and confounded, like schoolyard bullies caught in their own games!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
We're not even "going" to Libya. Majority of it's being done from way out at sea.
Libya for the Libyans - that's plural - not just one aging fruitcake.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read on of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
You know Monkey. And I know you feel otherwise, I don't want to see Qadaffi dead, because he needs to answer for his atrocities, even though his death fasten the inevitable.
Khamis however was a solider on the streets. He commanded the "elite" 32 Brigade, and I know if these reports are indeed true, the morale of that Brigade is like s__t , just fill in the blanks.
Exiile
General Khamis is fit and fine as a fiddle, commanding the militia against the aggression of the infidel pig eaters, and their Libyan collaborating roaches, fleas and rats.
Lion!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: We're not even "going" to Libya. Majority of it's being done from way out at sea.
Libya for the Libyans - that's plural - not just one aging fruitcake.
Yes, you could still be taken in the deceptive safety of your own home. The good Lord keeps the sleeper and the night watch man as well.
Your army will return back as soon as it hears what is going on in that your nest of vipers... called Europa.
Mystics
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read on of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
You know Monkey. And I know you feel otherwise, I don't want to see Qadaffi dead, because he needs to answer for his atrocities, even though his death fasten the inevitable.
Khamis however was a solider on the streets. He commanded the "elite" 32 Brigade, and I know if these reports are indeed true, the morale of that Brigade is like s__t , just fill in the blanks.
Well, you know, I'd just rather he took up his place in the afterlife, up or down, aint up to me, but asap because every minute he lingers here another poor Libyan gets killed.
His kids? Dunno. When I see Saif on TV, half of me thinks oh you sick, sick little man, but he spews out all this nonsense with such conviction... Maybe they are just completely brainwashed. I dunno. Doesn't please me none that his kid is toast, but if that keeps them off the streets killing other folks kids, well fair enough.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Anguishofbeing what do you think is the real reason bebind the western countries involvement?
Same as Iraq, Zyonism. They never forget. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read on of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
You know Monkey. And I know you feel otherwise, I don't want to see Qadaffi dead, because he needs to answer for his atrocities, even though his death fasten the inevitable.
Khamis however was a solider on the streets. He commanded the "elite" 32 Brigade, and I know if these reports are indeed true, the morale of that Brigade is like s__t , just fill in the blanks.
Exiile
General Khamis is fit and fine as a fiddle, commanding the militia against the aggression of the infidel pig eaters, and their Libyan collaborating roaches, fleas and rats.
Lion!
I think he's a major (not sure). Cockroaches, rats, fleas to my understanding love dark hidden places, and that perfectly describes the Qadaffi family's current disposition.
You think Qadaffi is a hero? If his daughter gets killed, his grandchildren? This is crazy, he's crazy. The ONLY thing I admire about Qadaffi is he is a little poetic, other than that, he's a murderous lunatic.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ you are selling the same Iraq sandwich. Not even creative enough to modify the rhetoric. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ok, I have a question for the conspiracy theorists.
If you reckon this is an, ahem, western attempt at colonising the ME, why is France joining us? You will no doubt remember that they were vehemently opposed to the war in Iraq from the get go. And what about Qatar's participation? And the UAE? And Spain? And Canada? And all the other countries that haven't stated their participation yet? Assuming what you're saying is true, how would we all divvy it up? Do you really think it would be worth the bother, or do you think you might be talking out of your hat?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^ you are selling the same Iraq sandwich. Not even creative enough to modify the rhetoric.
Iraq was an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. The United Nations did not sanction the invasion and all indications were France was going to veto the draft resolution that the UK/US put forth. This led to the UK/US withdrawing the draft resolution, and going at it illegitimately.
Libya is a different case. There isn't a comparison at all.
Resolution 1973/2011 authorizes NFZ and paragraph 4 in the resolution authorizes use of force to protect civilians.
Here is Paragraph 4 of the UN Resolution with an analysis by BBC.
Protection of civilians:
4. Authorises member states that have notified the secretary-general, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in co-operation with the secretary-general, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the member states concerned to inform the secretary-general immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;
Analysis: This is the essential paragraph in the resolution. It "authorises member states to take all necessary means" to protect civilians. This gives wide latitude for operations, for example, against ground units attacking Libyan towns. It specifically mentions the city of Benghazi, the pro-Gaddafi forces objective, and the centre of gravity of the rebel resistance. Crucially it excludes any "foreign occupation force" in sweeping terms. This is a message to the Arab world - this is not another Iraq. This is an operation with a clear limit. Is occupation too specific a term? Might it allow some ground operations like the deployment of Special Forces? There certainly is no appetite for ground operations in any of the countries backing this resolution.
Take some supplements.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ok, I have a question for the conspiracy theorists.
If you reckon this is an, ahem, western attempt at colonising the ME, why is France joining us? You will no doubt remember that they were vehemently opposed to the war in Iraq from the get go. And what about Qatar's participation? And the UAE? And Spain? And Canada? And all the other countries that haven't stated their participation yet? Assuming what you're saying is true, how would we all divvy it up? Do you really think it would be worth the bother, or do you think you might be talking out of your hat?
Have you heard about the Berlin conference of 1889? Google it..
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Mkay, so how do you get around Qatar and UAE and Canada.
Come on man, that was over a century ago. The world is a very different place. Look at the UK now. Times change. You have to move on or you're in danger of being left behind reminiscing in your outdated notions.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Iraq was an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. The United Nations did not sanction the invasion ...
I was referring to the reasons, excuses, dufus. Its all the same sandwich.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Iraq was an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. The United Nations did not sanction the invasion ...
I was referring to the reasons, excuses, dufus. Its all the same sandwich.
No it's not the same sandwhich, one is halal/kosher and the other is not. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Sarkozy Puts France at Vanguard(front) of West’s War Effort
PARIS — President Nicolas Sarkozy may be in down in the opinion polls, but he has put France boldly in the forefront of an allied effort to prevent the decimation of the opposition to Libya’s leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi......
1-2-3 Sarkozy 1-2-3 Sarkozy 1-2-3 Sarkozy
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
The 1-2-3 Sarkozy chants started when French planes took to the skies of Benghazi.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Qadaffi is so vile that he has women and children in and around his compound in Tripoli. EVEN if the women volunteer, EVEN if they insist. Decency is to tell them thank you but no thank you, now get your butts home and take the little ones with you.
Members here admire this man. This coward.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
They've just said they've aborted a Tornado attack because they saw civilians.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Mkay, so how do you get around Qatar and UAE and Canada.
Come on man, that was over a century ago. The world is a very different place. Look at the UK now. Times change. You have to move on or you're in danger of being left behind reminiscing in your outdated notions.
Quit sucking that kool-aid. It is even a more dangerous and cynical world that it was 100 years ago. Now you have little tin-pot wanna be emperors like Sarko Sarko, strutting on the world stage, in his extra high heel shoes.
Canada's Harper is another wanna-be emperor right winger ass-kisser in chief of Canada. A shifty guy who never held an honest job in his life other than to work as a shill for the conservatives.
Qatar, my dear, women in Qatar cannot leave their homes without their husbands permission. They cannot drive cars, they are considered inferior to men. Not so in Libya, where you have women scientists, women soldiers, women lawyers and Doctors. Qatar is a feudalist ****-hole.
UAE another slaving, whoring, fagotty feudalistic ****-hole where basic human rights are non-existence and women are considered as precious as camels. How many people live in UAE? How many people has Qatar got? Are those feudal ****-holes country or bunga-bunga vacation land for westerners? You sorely lack examples to build your case if these are all you can offer.
Wake up man, all those vampires will drink the blood of Libyans notwithstanding what side they are currently on. Those bastards want to control the world's oil resources and have the leverage to curtail the growth of the BRIC economies out-performing them in any every way. Brazil, Russia, India, China, and Germany, the real economies of the world. They are all against the invasion.
Old Europe is gonna lose this war sorely. They will regret this aggression as Ghadafi promised.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read one of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
Yeah and Santa Claus stands infront of my door right now lol.
Seriously why are you doing all this?
Why are you so aggressive in your passion that Gaddafi has to get killed and those poor Libyans need to be helped but if black Africans get mass killed in their own countries you just turn your back????
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so. Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Boehner: Obama must consult Congress before further Libya attacks
Obama def doesn't see it like this. He looks pretty relaxed on his little vacation in Brazil while his military leads air attacks in Libya.
AP The Associated Press President Obama plays soccer with children during his visit to Brazil. Watch this video: http://apne.ws/dJTspK -EF 6 hours ago
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Grumman,
A really nonsensical comment. You are an American courtesy white genocide of the indigenous. Now you tell me, do you think the people you used to call "Red Indians" are happy living on those barren reservations your settler kin folk carved out for them. Do you think they feel happy about your disgusting annual feast day that you people call "Thanksgiving".
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Grumman,
Your thinking is really warped. You are saying that because wicked people did wicked things in the past that the victims should just move on--because that's just history. I just think you want to avoid the truth: the past is always with us as it expresses itself in the present.
What I am saying about North Africa is true. I have been there and those yellow settler scum must be taught a lesson and informed loud and clear that they are guests in Africa could be removed when necessary.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read one of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
Yeah and Santa Claus stands infront of my door right now lol.
Seriously why are you doing all this?
Why are you so aggressive in your passion that Gaddafi has to get killed and those poor Libyans need to be helped but if black Africans get mass killed in their own countries you just turn your back????
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so.
Wooooo.... Someone has a bug up their arse since that comment about their senior years, eh?
My love life has feck all and nothing to do with a thread on Libya. If you're so lacking in that department yourself that you feel the need to discuss mine, feel free to open another thread in the appropriate section. And I will feel free to ignore you, tigerblood.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Libyan Citizen Journalist Mohammed Nabbous Killed by Gunfire While Reporting on the Battle for Benghazi
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read one of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
Yeah and Santa Claus stands infront of my door right now lol.
Seriously why are you doing all this?
Why are you so aggressive in your passion that Gaddafi has to get killed and those poor Libyans need to be helped but if black Africans get mass killed in their own countries you just turn your back????
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so.
You hit the nail on the head. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Oookay. Let's not forget that Mrs "Let There Be No More Wars" hubby served in the US military. What's up? Worried his vet's pension might go up the spout?
How many Iraqis did he murder there TB? Bet he got some nice snapshops as a keepsake, eh? Explains the attitude - 'leash' remarks directed at Arabs (well, specifically Muslims) and wot not. Nuff said, I reckon.
Finish this sentence: hypocrasy, thy name is...
My political opinions are based on what I think is right and wrong - if your fella doesn't allow you freedom over your own thought process, well I feel sorry for you.
Different nail, different head I guess.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Lamin wails: ''A really nonsensical comment. You are an American courtesy white genocide of the indigenous.''
I am an American ''courtesy of the slave trade.''
Are you suggesting you are of pure stock and you know from whence you came?
''Now you tell me, do you think the people you used to call "Red Indians" are happy living on those barren reservations your settler kin folk carved out for them.
Do you think they feel happy about your disgusting annual feast day that you people call "Thanksgiving".
How old are you Lamin? Did you just come into a sudden fit of knowledge concerning what you are asking? If you are in your 20s then this can explain your bizarre questions to me. If you're in your thirties then the conclusion to be drawn is you simply don't know any better. If you're in our 40s then you're pathological, that is, I hope you don't have firearms at your side.
Your elevated sense of truth and purpose can only be analyzed by you and see what it is you are trying to make sense of here. I do hope your alter ego doesn't consume you.
''Grumman, Your thinking is really warped. You are saying that because wicked people did wicked things in the past that the victims should just move on--because that's just history.''
Lamin...if the people you speak of were victims... in the past, then how do you make sense of what you just said? But I do know what you mean. I'm just trying to make you prepare yourself better before you open your mouth next time and make a fool of yourself with your next batch of senseless projections.
[b]''The past is always with us as it expresses itself in the present.''
I see you're starting to come out of your self-induced stupor. That's good news. However that doesn't relieve you in terms of you thinking that past events by people should be held accountable by those in the present--who had nothing to do with it. Should I hold you accountable for the massacres in Rwanda in the 90s? This assumes you are black and not some white boy masquerading as one who happens to be on an extended guilt trip. And shouldn't the civil authorities take this measure of revenge on those specifically responsible for it--in the present?
''What I am saying about North Africa is true. I have been there and those yellow settler scum must be taught a lesson and informed loud and clear that they are guests in Africa could be removed when necessary.''
That's not my interest, it's yours and the ''authorities''
And just as I said above you are pathological Lamin. You need to be watched because you may lose control at any time because of those demons sitting on your shoulders whispering in your attentive ears.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Who would have thought it: you name is a white Germanic name and you sound just like a white man. Well, if you're black as you claim then it shows what that cursed trade did to you. And you have done nothing about it. And you are a human being supposedly
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so. [/QB]
Do you seriously get off at being so spiteful Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Boehner: Obama must consult Congress before further Libya attacks
Obama def doesn't see it like this. He looks pretty relaxed on his little vacation in Brazil while his military leads air attacks in Libya.
AP The Associated Press President Obama plays soccer with children during his visit to Brazil. Watch this video: http://apne.ws/dJTspK -EF 6 hours ago
WOW!!!
Absolutely amazing watching this 180 degree transformation!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Grumman,
Who would have thought it: you name is a white Germanic name and you sound just like a white man. Well, if you're black as you claim then it shows what that cursed trade did to you. And you have done nothing about it. And you are a human being supposedly
It may be hard to believe. I too found it puzzling that a black man would select such a nick. However, there are blacks all around the world with different perceptive. It appears that Grumman is one of them. Very likely retired, ex-Air Force or Navy is my guess.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Guiliani and Farrakhan both blast Obama over Libya. Hmmmmmm.....
LOL No surprise there with Grumman. He and his mythical six million dead Joos. lol
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
What Libya can expect from the Allies in the near future.
American Dixie-land soldiers posing with dead Afghanistan citizens. Look at these good ole boys grabbing hair and holding the head up like it's a deer. That second picture is of a female albino, just in case you are mistaken the "softer" sex is your friend.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Links to the Panarama Libya episode aired in the UK tonight.
Pretty compelling viewing, for anyone who is interested in Libya. Those men in Benghazi are so brave.
I did hear a funny story today. Funny as it gets, anyway. An old lady was standing in a queue in Tripoli. A man turned and said to her "Madam, I'm sorry. You are in the wrong queue. The ladies' queue is over there. You are standing in the men's queue." So she looked up at him and said "What are you talking about? There are no men here. All the real men left days ago for Benghazi" and didn't budge an inch.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Links to the Panarama Libya episode aired in the UK tonight.
Pretty compelling viewing, for anyone who is interested in Libya. Those men in Benghazi are so brave.
I did hear a funny story today. Funny as it gets, anyway. An old lady was standing in a queue in Tripoli. A man turned and said to her "Madam, I'm sorry. You are in the wrong queue. The ladies' queue is over there. You are standing in the men's queue." So she looked up at him and said "What are you talking about? There are no men here. All the real men left days ago for Benghazi" and didn't budge an inch.
Monkey, great video. I only finished part 1, but I had to just say, awesome video. I have contempt for people who whine about the international community aiding Libyan citizens. Claiming there will be destruction as a result. Appartently they don't know sh—t and just talk out ther @sses because Libyans were already under invasion by mad dog Qadaffi and his thugs. Watching this video clearly illustrate this fact.
Qadaffi forces weren't put together to repel foreign forces. Qadaffi forces are a joke against any army by any nation. They were however trained and equipped to subdue and kill Libyan civilians. Anyone who is honest would acknowldge this fact. Khamis the thug, wanted an fleet ofLittle Bird Helicopters. The US even after his insistence told him "not a chance", because they knew how these urban helicopters could be used.
As painful as it is to watch such massacre and destruction of Libya, I know Libyans will see a better day.
Libya is rich country. They have 12,000 years worth of underground water. 1 Trillion dollars worth of proven oil reserves. 70 billion dollars in cash and with a relatively small population of 6 million people, I could very well see Libya as the envy of Africa and the Middle East.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
"[The Jews are] using their power, and they have power in every direction,” she told Playboy. “Power over the White House, power over Congress … Everybody is in the pocket of the Israeli lobbies, which are funded by wealthy supporters, including those from Hollywood. Same thing with the financial markets. There's total control … It isn't the 2 percent. It's real power when you own the White House, when you own these other places in terms of your political persuasion. Of course they have power. [To the interviewer] You don't deny that. You're Jewish, aren't you?" - Helen Thomas
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
I would think to offset: Qadaffis Air Force, Qadaffi's Private Brigades, Qadaffi's Foreign Mercenaries. To level the playing field, I would imagine. If Qadaffi believes he has the right to use an Air-Force and hire Foreign Mercenaries to pilot them and Mercenaries to kill civilians, don't you think the revolutionaries have the right to ask for international help? Fair is fair. He brought in outsiders first. Things are even now.
Did that answer your question. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"revolutionaries". lol
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
I would think to offset: Qadaffis Air Force, Qadaffi's Private Brigades, Qadaffi's Foreign Mercenaries. To level the playing field, I would imagine. If Qadaffi believes he has the right to use an Air-Force and hire Foreign Mercenaries to pilot them and Mercenaries to kill civilians, don't you think the revolutionaries have the right to ask for international help? Fair is fair. He brought in outsiders first. Things are even now.
Did that answer your question.
Funny thing is, France and the US thought he had the right to fly them also. They sold them to him without hesitation. They sold Saddam his too. These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Yes the topic is Libya, but first...
Lamin: ''Who would have thought it: you name is a white Germanic name and you sound just like a white man.''
You're trying really hard to make sense of something aren't you. But you don't know how to go about it. But I'm not the one to help you out of your predicament. Your internal issues block you at every turn. Seek help from those demons sitting on your shoulders. But wait, that's you. My bag.
''Well, if you're black as you claim then it shows what that cursed trade did to you. And you have done nothing about it. And you are a human being supposedly.''
See what I mean. Other than the psychologial nonsense you affix yourself to what else are you trying to say. Damn Lamin, why can't you get this right.
I do take it you're in your struggling 20s.
I'll tell you like I told Melaninking about the name grumman a couple of years ago. It represents nothing to me other than a particular type of aircraft. Plain and simple. I can drop it right now on the condition you make a concerted effort to explain yourself better than you have thus far.
I didn't play the ridiculous name changing foolishness until I came on this site. A site replete with some grownups wanting to be something or someone else. Just how adult can this be. But not to worry, white folks are ate up with this foolishness too so you do have something in common with them despite your all over the place suggestive denials.
By the way, what's a lamin? Is that really you. If it isn't your birth name then why are you using it. If it is then good for you; maybe you can start a trend. If it isn't you then a psychologist will have something to say to you about this; that is if he can explain it. The same goes for a few other frequent name-changers on this site. But you don't have to concern yourself with this at all. I don't expect an answer from you of any kind.
But one thing I have noticed about you other than your pathology you seem to be satisfied with your choice of names... at least on this website.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Actually, Lamin is a fairly common name in western African countries in the furthest west by the Atlantic ocean, from around Mali to Senegal/Gambia. It is a popular name for eldest sons particularly in the latter region.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Just read one of his sons, Said al Arab defected some time ago to the protestors - well if that doesn't say it all, what does?
Yeah and Santa Claus stands infront of my door right now lol.
Seriously why are you doing all this?
Why are you so aggressive in your passion that Gaddafi has to get killed and those poor Libyans need to be helped but if black Africans get mass killed in their own countries you just turn your back????
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so.
Wooooo.... Someone has a bug up their arse since that comment about their senior years, eh?
My love life has feck all and nothing to do with a thread on Libya. If you're so lacking in that department yourself that you feel the need to discuss mine, feel free to open another thread in the appropriate section. And I will feel free to ignore you, tigerblood.
I didn't talk about your love life, I meant sex life, banging you know??? Hell yeah I am sure that even a freaking sharmouta can get laid that's what I was refering to.
And hell no why would I open a thread on you? Do you feel you are that important to me??? Haha, you are such a strange character. I must really have p#ssed you off with my reply yesterday that's why you went and looked for personal info on me here on ES. You not gonna pull a sono on me now, are you???
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by young at heart:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so.
Do you seriously get off at being so spiteful [/QB]
Look you old woman: Go and do what you can do best. Blow your 30 year younger husband you important from the Red Sea resort!!
While other tourists bring souvenirs back home like papyrus and necklaces you had to have it your way. Must be a great feeling to save have 'saved' an adult from a third world country who couldn't take care of himself. WOWWW.... your mom would be so proud of you if she knew. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Ban Ki-moon attacked in Cairo
Supporters of Col Muammer Gaddafi, Libya's autocratic leader, attacked UN chief Ban Ki-moon today on his way from the Arab League headquarters to Tahrir Square in downtown Cairo.
Journalist Sawsan Abu Hussein was among the tens of protesters against the UN's sanctions on Libya. The protesters surrounded Ki-moon and attacked him verbally. They also chanted anti-UN and pro-Gaddafi slogans.
The U.S. picked Banki to use as a diplomatic fist for Kim in North Korea. But they didn't count on their puppets in North Africa--Mubarak and Ali--falling. No worry though! Banki, like any good message-boy stooge appointment, will do anything and sing any song for his supper.
I mean why would a guy do anything that would interfere with his retirement package? If you know about Boutros, then you will do as you are told by the U.S.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by young at heart:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
To impress the Arab you are currently fUcking????
Honey do yourself a favor and calm down IMHO. You gonna end up with a nice British boy anyway. And when you do just remember I told you so.
Do you seriously get off at being so spiteful
Look you old woman: Go and do what you can do best. Blow your 30 year younger husband you important from the Red Sea resort!!
While other tourists bring souvenirs back home like papyrus and necklaces you had to have it your way. Must be a great feeling to save have 'saved' an adult from a third world country who couldn't take care of himself. WOWWW.... your mom would be so proud of you if she knew. [/QB]
Remind me, How old are you again Tiger because you seem to be incapable of answering in a mature and adult manner as shown by your outburst towards me for questioning your response to Monkey. She has a different point of view to you(you get that on a forum ) so why personally insult her? Bringing my late mother into this is really quite low even by your standards But actually she would be happy for me and like him as everyone else I know clearly does. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
A US warplane has crashed in eastern Libya following an apparent mechanical failure, the US military says.
US spokesman Kenneth Fidler told the BBC there was no indication the F-15E Eagle had been brought down by hostile fire.
Both crew members ejected and now safe, the military says.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
I would think to offset: Qadaffis Air Force, Qadaffi's Private Brigades, Qadaffi's Foreign Mercenaries. To level the playing field, I would imagine. If Qadaffi believes he has the right to use an Air-Force and hire Foreign Mercenaries to pilot them and Mercenaries to kill civilians, don't you think the revolutionaries have the right to ask for international help? Fair is fair. He brought in outsiders first. Things are even now.
Did that answer your question.
Funny thing is, France and the US thought he had the right to fly them also. They sold them to him without hesitation. They sold Saddam his too. These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.
Let's get something right. The main suppliers of military weapons to Libya are (in order):
Russia China
The jets used are mostly Russian Migs (Mig 21/23) and Russian Sukhoi ground attack planes. The helicopters used to slaughter people are also Russian and Yugoslavian. All tanks used against his people are older model T-Model Russian tanks. The artillery are mostly Russian and Chinese. Qadaffi armored personnel carriers (BTR 50/60, etc) are also Russian. The machine guns used are also mainly Russian, Chinese and from former East European nations. And as a matter of fact the entire Libyan security apparatus is mainly equipped with Russian and Chinese hardware.
Name me one US attack plane/helicopter in Libya's airforce?
Not one single attack aircraft in the Libyan air force is from the USA. His US inventory include C-130s and Chinooks and both are for only for transport. Qadaffi has a total of 3 French fighter planes but over 300 mostly from Russia.
As for: “These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.“
That's exactly what Qadaffi keeps telling us. Thing is he hasn't been able to substantiate such claims. Can you?
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
“The No-Fly Zone Has Always Been a Recipe for Disaster”: Jeremy Scahill Says Libyan Strategy Has No Endgame
A Black Libyan Revoultionary: "Qadaffi forces are using Israeli weapons on us"
-AJ
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
I would think to offset: Qadaffis Air Force, Qadaffi's Private Brigades, Qadaffi's Foreign Mercenaries. To level the playing field, I would imagine. If Qadaffi believes he has the right to use an Air-Force and hire Foreign Mercenaries to pilot them and Mercenaries to kill civilians, don't you think the revolutionaries have the right to ask for international help? Fair is fair. He brought in outsiders first. Things are even now.
Did that answer your question.
Funny thing is, France and the US thought he had the right to fly them also. They sold them to him without hesitation. They sold Saddam his too. These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.
Let's get something right. The main suppliers of military weapons to Libya are (in order):
Russia China
The jets used are mostly Russian Migs (Mig 21/23) and Russian Sukhoi ground attack planes. The helicopters used to slaughter people are also Russian and Yugoslavian. All tanks used against his people are older model T-Model Russian tanks. The artillery are mostly Russian and Chinese. Qadaffi armored personnel carriers (BTR 50/60, etc) are also Russian. The machine guns used are also mainly Russian, Chinese and from former East European nations. And as a matter of fact the entire Libyan security apparatus is mainly equipped with Russian and Chinese hardware.
Name me one US attack plane/helicopter in Libya's airforce?
Not one single attack aircraft in the Libyan air force is from the USA. His US inventory include C-130s and Chinooks and both are for only for transport. Qadaffi has a total of 3 French fighter planes but over 300 mostly from Russia.
As for: “These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.“
That's exactly what Qadaffi keeps telling us. Thing is he hasn't been able to substantiate such claims. Can you?
If you want to use FACTS to present a case, first you must at least seek to find them. In the absence of FACT, I see you at well versed in presenting FACTOID. That crap don't work here.
Obama administration approved $40billion in private arms sales to countries including Libya and Egypt
By Daily Mail Reporter Last updated at 1:15 PM on 12th March 2011
The U.S. government approved $40billion in private arms sales to countries including Libya and Egypt in 2009 - before they both dissolved into unrest this year - the State Department reported.
From 2008 to 2009, the U.S. authorised an increase in sales of military shipments to the now-toppled Egyptian government of Hosni Mubarak and the embattled kingdom of Bahrain.
But they did reduce the sales approvals to Muammar Gaddafi's Libyan government to $15million that year from $46million in 2008.
The figures show $458,000 in tear gas sales licensed to Egypt, where there were numerous reports that U.S.-supplied crowd-control gas suppressed democracy protesters in Cairo.
The U.S. authorised $18,000 in tear gas for Bahrain in 2008, but did not license it in 2009, the figures show.
Both countries were also authorised shipments of firearms, shotguns and close assault weapons.
All sales to Libya were restricted to non-lethal equipment.
Almost all of the equipment approved in 2009 were aircraft parts, compared to more than $1million that had been approved in 2008 for explosives and incendiary agents.
On the whole, U.S. defense shipments to Libya under the Obama and Bush administrations have been tightly screened in recent years. U.S. sales were dwarfed by a tide of arms sold by European allies. European Union nations approved sales of $470 million in weapons to Gadhafi’s military in 2009 alone — a rush of Italian military aircraft, Maltese small arms and British munitions, according to a January EU arms control report.
In 2007, Libyan army generals told a visiting American delegation they wanted upgraded troop carriers as well as Chinook helicopters to speed their military’s transport, said a senior U.S. official familiar with the request. European subsidiaries of major American defense firms were soon shuttling into Tripoli. General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman were among companies listed as attending the 2008 and 2010 Libya Defense and Security Exhibition in Tripoli.
BAE is a British firm with a major U.S. defense arm, BAE Systems, Inc., that was listed in 2010 as the nation’s 12th largest government contractor. Headquartered in Rockville, Md., the company’s U.S. board is chaired by former Gen. Anthony Zinni, who retired at the end of Clinton administration; former Indiana Rep. Lee Hamilton, an Obama foreign policy mentor; and former Bush administration Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff.
Libyan officials wheedled for swift action. In a meeting with American diplomats in Tripoli in late 2009, a senior aide to Gadhafi’s son Saif said that he and his brother Khamis wanted the U.S. to quickly approve the armored transport upgrades. The aide “requested an update on the status” of the joint venture, Ambassador Gene Cretz wrote on Dec. 14, 2009, in the cable published by WikiLeaks.
The Libyans’ obsession with troop transport also showed in their interest in Jordanian-built “Tiger” high-mobility vehicles and in MH-6 “Little Bird” helicopters previously denied by U.S. officials. Both items could not be sold to Libya, U.S. officials repeated, according to the memo.
The armored transport deal, though, sailed through. By late 2009, it was green-lighted by the State Department’s trade office, officials said. Under rules governing defense trade, the deal still required congressional oversight before it could be clinched — because of the high cost involved and the fact that troop carriers were deemed major military equipment.
But the deal soon bogged down in doubts. Officials noted that documents cited differing numbers of troop transports, ranging from 40 to 60 — raising alarm that the Libyans might be padding the figures to obtain additional parts. The committees also pressed the State Department for a clearer sense of how the Libyans would use the armored carriers, but complained they did not get definitive answers.
There were also concerns about BAE’s role. After months of negotiations with the Justice Department, the parent firm of the British-owned defense giant pleaded guilty in March 2010 to conspiracy and false statements charges, agreeing to pay a $400 million fine in a case involving questionable payments to a Saudi official and offshore shell companies.
The State Department then placed a “temporary administrative hold” on weapons export licenses sought by both BAE’s British and U.S. entities. The department also said it was considering debarring BAE, a move that would limit the company’s ability to export items with U.S.-made content.
The State Department has not debarred the defense firm, but BAE’s involvement added to uncertainty about the deal, officials said. “I’m a little surprised the right hand at State didn’t coordinate with what the left hand at Justice was doing,” said William Reinsch, president of the National Foreign Trade Council and a former senior Commerce Department official.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why did the "men" of Benghazi cry for western intervention? I thought they were leading the "cornering" of Qaddafi in a "peoples revolt" in all Libya? lol
I would think to offset: Qadaffis Air Force, Qadaffi's Private Brigades, Qadaffi's Foreign Mercenaries. To level the playing field, I would imagine. If Qadaffi believes he has the right to use an Air-Force and hire Foreign Mercenaries to pilot them and Mercenaries to kill civilians, don't you think the revolutionaries have the right to ask for international help? Fair is fair. He brought in outsiders first. Things are even now.
Did that answer your question.
Funny thing is, France and the US thought he had the right to fly them also. They sold them to him without hesitation. They sold Saddam his too. These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.
Let's get something right. The main suppliers of military weapons to Libya are (in order):
Russia China
The jets used are mostly Russian Migs (Mig 21/23) and Russian Sukhoi ground attack planes. The helicopters used to slaughter people are also Russian and Yugoslavian. All tanks used against his people are older model T-Model Russian tanks. The artillery are mostly Russian and Chinese. Qadaffi armored personnel carriers (BTR 50/60, etc) are also Russian. The machine guns used are also mainly Russian, Chinese and from former East European nations. And as a matter of fact the entire Libyan security apparatus is mainly equipped with Russian and Chinese hardware.
Name me one US attack plane/helicopter in Libya's airforce?
Not one single attack aircraft in the Libyan air force is from the USA. His US inventory include C-130s and Chinooks and both are for only for transport. Qadaffi has a total of 3 French fighter planes but over 300 mostly from Russia.
As for: “These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.“
That's exactly what Qadaffi keeps telling us. Thing is he hasn't been able to substantiate such claims. Can you?
If you want to use FACTS to present a case, first you must at least seek to find them. In the absence of FACT, I see you at well versed in presenting FACTOID. That crap don't work here.
Obama administration approved $40billion in private arms sales to countries including Libya and Egypt
By Daily Mail Reporter Last updated at 1:15 PM on 12th March 2011
The U.S. government approved $40billion in private arms sales to countries including Libya and Egypt in 2009 - before they both dissolved into unrest this year - the State Department reported.
From 2008 to 2009, the U.S. authorised an increase in sales of military shipments to the now-toppled Egyptian government of Hosni Mubarak and the embattled kingdom of Bahrain.
But they did reduce the sales approvals to Muammar Gaddafi's Libyan government to $15million that year from $46million in 2008.
The figures show $458,000 in tear gas sales licensed to Egypt, where there were numerous reports that U.S.-supplied crowd-control gas suppressed democracy protesters in Cairo.
The U.S. authorised $18,000 in tear gas for Bahrain in 2008, but did not license it in 2009, the figures show.
Both countries were also authorised shipments of firearms, shotguns and close assault weapons.
All sales to Libya were restricted to non-lethal equipment.
Almost all of the equipment approved in 2009 were aircraft parts, compared to more than $1million that had been approved in 2008 for explosives and incendiary agents.
On the whole, U.S. defense shipments to Libya under the Obama and Bush administrations have been tightly screened in recent years. U.S. sales were dwarfed by a tide of arms sold by European allies. European Union nations approved sales of $470 million in weapons to Gadhafi’s military in 2009 alone — a rush of Italian military aircraft, Maltese small arms and British munitions, according to a January EU arms control report.
In 2007, Libyan army generals told a visiting American delegation they wanted upgraded troop carriers as well as Chinook helicopters to speed their military’s transport, said a senior U.S. official familiar with the request. European subsidiaries of major American defense firms were soon shuttling into Tripoli. General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman were among companies listed as attending the 2008 and 2010 Libya Defense and Security Exhibition in Tripoli.
BAE is a British firm with a major U.S. defense arm, BAE Systems, Inc., that was listed in 2010 as the nation’s 12th largest government contractor. Headquartered in Rockville, Md., the company’s U.S. board is chaired by former Gen. Anthony Zinni, who retired at the end of Clinton administration; former Indiana Rep. Lee Hamilton, an Obama foreign policy mentor; and former Bush administration Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff.
Libyan officials wheedled for swift action. In a meeting with American diplomats in Tripoli in late 2009, a senior aide to Gadhafi’s son Saif said that he and his brother Khamis wanted the U.S. to quickly approve the armored transport upgrades. The aide “requested an update on the status” of the joint venture, Ambassador Gene Cretz wrote on Dec. 14, 2009, in the cable published by WikiLeaks.
The Libyans’ obsession with troop transport also showed in their interest in Jordanian-built “Tiger” high-mobility vehicles and in MH-6 “Little Bird” helicopters previously denied by U.S. officials. Both items could not be sold to Libya, U.S. officials repeated, according to the memo.
The armored transport deal, though, sailed through. By late 2009, it was green-lighted by the State Department’s trade office, officials said. Under rules governing defense trade, the deal still required congressional oversight before it could be clinched — because of the high cost involved and the fact that troop carriers were deemed major military equipment.
But the deal soon bogged down in doubts. Officials noted that documents cited differing numbers of troop transports, ranging from 40 to 60 — raising alarm that the Libyans might be padding the figures to obtain additional parts. The committees also pressed the State Department for a clearer sense of how the Libyans would use the armored carriers, but complained they did not get definitive answers.
There were also concerns about BAE’s role. After months of negotiations with the Justice Department, the parent firm of the British-owned defense giant pleaded guilty in March 2010 to conspiracy and false statements charges, agreeing to pay a $400 million fine in a case involving questionable payments to a Saudi official and offshore shell companies.
The State Department then placed a “temporary administrative hold” on weapons export licenses sought by both BAE’s British and U.S. entities. The department also said it was considering debarring BAE, a move that would limit the company’s ability to export items with U.S.-made content.
The State Department has not debarred the defense firm, but BAE’s involvement added to uncertainty about the deal, officials said. “I’m a little surprised the right hand at State didn’t coordinate with what the left hand at Justice was doing,” said William Reinsch, president of the National Foreign Trade Council and a former senior Commerce Department official.
Those are future US arms deal or deals of weapons that have not been delivered yet. I am not talking about the future. I am talking about now. As in weapons Qadaffi is NOW using against his people - there is not one single US attack aircraft in the Libyan military. And as of now there are only 3 attack/interceptor French aircraft in the Libyan Military. Two of them are now in Malta.
I don't care about potential future arms deal. I am asserting now as in fact, as in tangible military assets that are in Libya's possession.
1- Present any proof, ANY, of 1 single attack US aircraft in the Libyan military!
2- Try to subtantiate the following fallacy: “These aren't revolutionaries. They're organized cells of infiltrators recruiting naive Libyan youth, mercenaries and foreign operatives.“
So before you shout out factoid, bring the truth first and don't resort to trickery, as in future arms deals. When damn well you and everyone else knows that Libya's military consists of 95% Russian, Chinese and Yugoslavian hardware. This can be verified by an assortment of websites that specialize in global militaries.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
The US is more than eager to sell arms to Libya. Following this conflict, they will again. As you can clearly see above, and I hope you can also read and comprehend, the US sold Libya European arms sales to Libya, in figures
by Guest March 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
contribution by Dan O’Huiginn
There’s no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.
Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here’s a summary of what they’ve found so far…
Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.
Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:
Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with ‘material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles’, the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment. … This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million). Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that “the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya“. The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a “priority market”, and says “high-level political interventions” have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.
Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they’d identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.
In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:
Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important.
Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
U.S. Aircraft In Libya Air Force
10 Lockheed C-130H Hercules USA Heavy transport
1 Gulfstream II USA Light transport
4 Bell 206 JetRanger USA Training helicopter
2 Bell 212 Twin Huey USA Light transport helicopter
8 Boeing CH-47 Chinook USA Heavy transport helicopter
Like they did for Saddam, France has sold the Dassault Mirage to Libya.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
I mean, that's what they always do. They pressure you, pressure you, pressure you, until they force you to join the club. And one way to break the ice is to buy a lot of military and torture hardware. Only Castro and Kim from Korea didn't break.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: As you can clearly see above, and I hope you can also read and comprehend, the US sold Libya European arms sales to Libya, in figures
by Guest March 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
contribution by Dan O’Huiginn
There’s no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.
Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here’s a summary of what they’ve found so far…
Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.
Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:
Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with ‘material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles’, the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment. … This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million). Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that “the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya“. The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a “priority market”, and says “high-level political interventions” have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.
Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they’d identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.
In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:
Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important.
Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration.
Activism European arms sales to Libya, in figures
by Guest March 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
contribution by Dan O’Huiginn
There’s no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.
Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here’s a summary of what they’ve found so far…
Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.
From Germany – And my isn't Germany pious as they abstained from voting for UNSC 1973/2011
Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:
Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with ‘material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles’, the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment. … This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million). Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
From ITALY – And wasn't Silvio Berlusconi one of Qadaffi's biggest backers and also personal friend. The Heli's not delivered yet.
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that “the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya“. The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a “priority market”, and says “high-level political interventions” have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.
The UK, tear gas, rifles are a fry cry from Fighter Jets, Tanks, Helicopters, and other devastating weapons supplied by Russia
Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they’d identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.
Belgium – Small Arms or pistols , no comment
In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:
Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important.
Ahh here are the French. Future deals, and future upgrades of Mirage fighters, yes indeed significant but these deals did not finalize, or not delivered yet. And hopefully never will as Arab leaders should not be in possession of anything more than a side-arm and AK at most
Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration.
More future deals, or something that is irrelevant now
My point is very simple. The culprits in supplying the Libyan government with weapons are Russia, a distant second China and former East European nations a distant 3rd. As of now the weapons in Qadaffi's military are 95% from those two nations.
Russia is the main culprit here. There aren't any weapons here from the US. And French armament haven't been delivered yet.
Russia is the guilty party here. They armed Libya with devastating military equipment and abstained in vote as their weapons are used to slaughter innocent civilans.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: My point is very simple. The culprits in supplying the Libyan government with weapons are Russia, a distant second China and former East European nations a distant 3rd. As of now the weapons in Qadaffi's military are 95% from those two nations.
Russia is the main culprit here. There aren't any weapons here from the US. And French armament haven't been delivered yet.
Russia is the guilty party here. They armed Libya with devastating military equipment and abstained in vote as their weapons are used to slaughter innocent civilans.
Didn't know that. Explains a lot.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: U.S. Aircraft In Libya Air Force
10 Lockheed C-130H Hercules USA Heavy transport
1 Gulfstream II USA Light transport
4 Bell 206 JetRanger USA Training helicopter
2 Bell 212 Twin Huey USA Light transport helicopter
8 Boeing CH-47 Chinook USA Heavy transport helicopter
Like they did for Saddam, France has sold the Dassault Mirage to Libya.
Yes I mentioned these and I specifically stated than none are for attack or weaponized.
And I also mentioned that Libya has 3 Mirages from the French, 2 of which are in Malta.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Absolutely hilarious. The Libyan government have taken a BBC camera crew to a navy repair unit that was bombed last night. They did a pretty good job on it to be fair, still smouldering now but three missiles survived.
Now some dufus is making a statement to say there are no missiles there! Pssst! They're behind you!
Absolutely flipping mental. Any sane government would want to keep whatever damage has been done as quiet as possible. I could understand it if they were showing you a civilian area that had been bombed. Oddly, they don't seem to be able to find any of those so far. It looks like it's been pretty damned successful so far.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Absolutely hilarious. The Libyan government have taken a BBC camera crew to a navy repair unit that was bombed last night. They did a pretty good job on it to be fair, still smouldering now but three missiles survived.
Now some dufus is making a statement to say there are no missiles there! Pssst! They're behind you!
Absolutely flipping mental. Any sane government would want to keep whatever damage has been done as quiet as possible. I could understand it if they were showing you a civilian area that had been bombed. Oddly, they don't seem to be able to find any of those so far. It looks like it's been pretty damned successful so far.
With the blatant Arab dictators it is all a family affair. They retard their nations intellectually and it shows during such crises.
*Qadaffi has his sons Brigades protecting the regime.
*Ali Abdullah Saleh has his son's Republican guard protecting the regime.
The intellectual capital of these nations migrate from such brutal regimes. And as a result you have the elites running the nation not with intellect but sheer brutality. All that's left are idiotic YES men on their sides.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Romania is sending a frigate with a crew of 200.
Well that's that then. Blatant colonisation Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
40,000 Serbs sign up on facebook to support and show solidarity with Qadaffi.
They're not the only ones. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: As you can clearly see above, and I hope you can also read and comprehend, the US sold Libya European arms sales to Libya, in figures
by Guest March 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
contribution by Dan O’Huiginn
There’s no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.
Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here’s a summary of what they’ve found so far…
Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.
Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:
Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with ‘material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles’, the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment. … This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million). Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that “the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya“. The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a “priority market”, and says “high-level political interventions” have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.
Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they’d identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.
In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:
Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important.
Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration.
Activism European arms sales to Libya, in figures
by Guest March 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
contribution by Dan O’Huiginn
There’s no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.
Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here’s a summary of what they’ve found so far…
Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.
From Germany – And my isn't Germany pious as they abstained from voting for UNSC 1973/2011
Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:
Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with ‘material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles’, the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment. … This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million). Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
From ITALY – And wasn't Silvio Berlusconi one of Qadaffi's biggest backers and also personal friend. The Heli's not delivered yet.
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that “the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya“. The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a “priority market”, and says “high-level political interventions” have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.
The UK, tear gas, rifles are a fry cry from Fighter Jets, Tanks, Helicopters, and other devastating weapons supplied by Russia
Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they’d identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.
Belgium – Small Arms or pistols , no comment
In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:
Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important.
Ahh here are the French. Future deals, and future upgrades of Mirage fighters, yes indeed significant but these deals did not finalize, or not delivered yet. And hopefully never will as Arab leaders should not be in possession of anything more than a side-arm and AK at most
Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration.
More future deals, or something that is irrelevant now
My point is very simple. The culprits in supplying the Libyan government with weapons are Russia, a distant second China and former East European nations a distant 3rd. As of now the weapons in Qadaffi's military are 95% from those two nations.
Russia is the main culprit here. There aren't any weapons here from the US. And French armament haven't been delivered yet.
Russia is the guilty party here. They armed Libya with devastating military equipment and abstained in vote as their weapons are used to slaughter innocent civilans.
Don't be foolish. These are merely REPORTED deals. The majority of these deals go unreported. France sold Saddam all his jet fighters also, and packaged them as "kits" requiring assembly to get around any objections of embargo. Not surprisingly, these were the same Jets the U.S. and France shot down during Gulf War 1. Oh, and let's not forget all that Nerve Agent the US (Bush Sr.) sold to Saddam to use on Iran, killing tens of thousands, including women and children. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
UPDATE: The American Dilemma in Libya: To Bomb, Invade, Partition, Or All of the Above
by BAR executive editor Glen Ford
UPDATED: As Khadafi’s forces prepare to encircle the rebel stronghold at Benghazi, western media remain curiously unable to “provide a coherent overview of rebel politics, beyond an incandescent hatred of Khadafi.” However, the corporate press seem to have suddenly “undergone a crash course in the intractable nature of Libyan tribal politics,” an indication the U.S. is considering drawing a line in the sand to effectively partition Libya.
“R2P” – Responsibility to Protect – is the Obama regime’s favored formula for pouring mud in the otherwise clear waters of international law. The philosophy – actually, a political position seeking legal recognition – amounts to a kind of super-power judicial waiver couched in the language of nobles oblige, the obligation of the strong to help the weak. In the real world, the strong only help themselves – in this case, to Libya’s oil reserves, the largest in Africa.
Obama UN Ambassador Susan Rice, a far meaner junkyard dog than George Bush’s Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, is the administration’s loudest and most bellicose proponent of so-called “humanitarian” intervention. Even before the Democrats won the White House, Susan Rice proposed a sea and air blockade and “no-fly zone” against Sudan. Having finally succeeded in partitioning Sudan, after decades of fomenting civil war, the West is clearly considering the “option” of partitioning Libya, where most of the oil is conveniently located in the eastern part of the country, near Benghazi.
The workings of the imperial brain are plainly visible in the output of the corporate press, which act as ventriloquist dummies to power. Suddenly, the media have all undergone a crash course in the intractable nature of Libyan tribal politics – a subject until now totally unknown to the western press. After a quick education from the State Department and designated think tankers, corporate media dutifully prepare the public for the possible drawing of an American “line in the sand” somewhere before the gates of Benghazi, a town that would then be dubbed a “hero city” – the opposite of Fallujah, the demon-city leveled by the U.S. in 2004 at the cost of tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, to the cheers of U.S. corporate media.
“The West is clearly considering the ‘option’ of partitioning Libya.”
Western reporters, who are such quick studies when it comes to tribalisms and other perceived pathologies of exotic, non-western peoples, have not yet figured out who the rebels are, politically. This is quite strange, since corporate correspondents have for weeks spent all their waking hours among the rebels, profiling individuals and rushing to the battlefronts. Yet, they cannot – or will not – provide a coherent overview of rebel politics, beyond an incandescent hatred of Khadafi, the man. Khadafi’s narrative of the conflict, that the rebels are largely Al Qaida-type elements, is dismissed as nonsensical. But no one disputes that Benghazi was the center of an Islamic revolt in the Nineties, and that resentments from that period fester. The presence of Islamic militants among the rebels is now widely acknowledged, although corporate correspondents can’t seem to find many in the flesh to profile.
The western media, and the governments they serve, are caught in crossfire of contradictions. The U.S. wants desperately to position itself on the “right” side of some aspect of the unfolding Arab Reawakening. The West dearly wishes to appropriate to itself a section of the “Arab revolt,” so as to bomb an evil “dictator” on their behalf. The western media’s job is to do the public relations work, presenting these “pro-western” combatants in the most attractive light. However, it appears the media are having trouble packaging the Libyan rebels as sufficiently virtuous “freedom fighters” – one suspects because, on closer inspection, many turn out to be fundamentalists or tribalists.
“Why is the rebellion apparently incapable of taking advantage of mass desertions from the armed forces?”
Ironically, the merest presence of Islamic fundamentalist fighters would have, in previous times, been reason for a U.S. attack and invasion – against those harboring such elements.
And, what happened to the estimated 6,000 former regime troops that deserted at the start of the rebellion? Some former Khadafi officers occupy high profile positions in the rebel ranks, but the equivalent of several brigades worth of deserters is not in evidence. This, again, raises the question of who the rebel leaders really are; why are they apparently incapable of taking advantage of mass desertions from the armed forces? One cannot help but suspect the presence of unwholesome elements around whom former soldiers and others cannot bring themselves to effectively coalesce.
The most unwholesome elements of all, of course, are the U.S. and European imperialists, whose intervention represents the overarching threat to the Libyan and Arab nation. Much is made of the Arab League’s request for a no-fly zone over Libya. But the League’s rather ambiguous proposal – it cautions against an “attack” on Libya, as if a no-fly zone can be imposed without attacking anybody – has no more force of law than a NATO no-fly decision, or an African Union decision to attack Europe!
The United States has paid no attention to countless Arab League resolutions regarding Israel’s six decades of lawless behavior in the region, or to the Jewish State’s constant violations of UN resolutions. No one in the Arab world believes the West has suddenly developed a new respect for either Arabs or the rule of law. What’s new is western fear that, at long last, the empire is finally slipping away.
BAR executive editor Glen Ford can be contacted at Glen.Ford@BlackAgendaReport.com.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Qadaffi forces in training.
Literally kissing dead dog mouth, and literally eating raw dog meat.
Split on Libya averted as Nato given military control
International coalition including Qatar and United Arab Emirates to share oversight of UN-mandated anti-Gaddafi campaign
Bosnia, which came to symbolise Europe's failure to prevent bloodshed on its doorstep , could provide a model for a new era as the world confronts Muammar Gaddafi.
Diplomatic sources say that a structure which has kept the peace in Bosnia could be replicated as the international community enforces the no-fly zone over Libya.
Bosnia is indeed the "model" that will be sold, given the deception that was involved there too. Same sandwich, same people. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Same whores, New dresses
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Qadaffi forces in training.
Literally kissing dead dog mouth, and literally eating raw dog meat.
While the rebels help a downed pilot, bring him a doctor and cut flowers:
"He was a very nice guy," Libyan businessman Ibrahim Ismail told Newsweek of the initially quite anxious American pilot. "He came to free the Libyan people." Rebel officials dispatched a doctor to attend to the pilot and presented him with a bouquet of flowers, according to Newsweek.
AP – An Italian financial police helicopter flies over the island of Lampedusa, Italy, as clothes hang from …
Barbie Latza Nadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau – Mon Mar 21, 2:16 pm ET
NEW YORK – Thousands of Libyans are risking their lives to escape to a small Italian island, where conditions are appalling. Barbie Latza Nadeau on the camp and why Italy’s cozy relationship with Gaddafi is to blame.
The battered hulls of hundreds of destroyed migrant boats are stacked like firewood along the port in Lampedusa, a tiny Italian tourist island 180 miles from the coast of Libya. Nearly 15,000 men, women, and children have made the 24-hour voyage across the Mediterranean to this tiny island since January 14, when Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi’s naval guards stopped patrolling the waters off the North African coast to curb the flow of illegal immigrants to Europe.
Most of those who make the journey claim to be bona fide refugees fleeing the troubled conflict zones in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya. But few have documents to prove where they are really from, and even fewer have money after spending between $1,500 and $3,000 to make the trip. Those who qualify for refugee status are sent to the Italian mainland to wait out asylum hearings. Eventually they’ll be turned back to their countries of origin or released where they are free to travel throughout the open-border countries of Europe.
Italy fears that the boats are increasingly infiltrated with thugs and terrorists, planted by Gaddafi and his followers as a form of retaliation against Italy for abandoning Libya in their time of crisis. Last week just hours after Italy said it would lend airfields to any NATO-led UN-sanctioned military effort, a ferry from Tripoli carrying 1,800 men tried to dock in Lampedusa. Unlike the smaller boats that are often piled high with women and children, the ferry was suspicious. Italian authorities turned it away. “We have intelligence about some of the passengers,” said Italy’s Interior Minister Roberto Maroni. “We can’t be sure there are no terrorists on board.”
Libya is justifiably angry at Italy for siding with the West and not honoring its cozy friendship. Retaliation by mass illegal immigration and the planting of dangerous characters will hurt the country more than any military strike. The boats don’t go to Malta or Crete with the same regularity they head to Italy because those countries simply send them back. But Italy rarely does, even though they cannot maintain an acceptable ethical standard of humanitarian treatment of the would-be refugees due to the sheer inundation.
Lampedusa’s migrant detention center houses just 850 detainees. There are currently over 4,000 on the island. No country in Europe or elsewhere will help by taking refugees, leaving Italy to cope with the chaos alone. Once off the boats, there is now nowhere to sleep, very little fresh drinking water, and atrocious hygienic conditions. The seas last week were too rough for supply ships from Sicily to bring fresh drinking water and food supplies, yet more boats landed, often crashing into the rocky shores. Hundreds of lives have been lost at sea. Bodies are often caught in fishing nets or wash up on the shores. The local authorities, bolstered by military troops from the Italian mainland, have set up cage-like metal fences around the harbor and many of the immigrants are sleeping under semi-trailers draped with plastic to keep out the rain. The Red Cross calls the situation in Lampedusa “deplorable.”
Hundreds of lives have been lost at sea. Bodies are often caught in fishing nets or wash up on the shores.
Italian authorities were hoping to set up an emergency tent camp on the island over the weekend, but they were unable to deliver tents, portable toilets, and blankets when angry residents blocked the supply ship from docking. “Lampedusa cannot be transformed into a refugee camp just a few weeks before the summer tourist season begins,” says the now-desperate Lampedusa Mayor Dino De Rubeis. “You are giving us a death sentence. The immigrants have to be transferred to the rest of Italy or Europe. These immigrants are treated like animals, left to sleep under the rain without food or shelter.” A military boat is now docked off the island to take some of the immigrants, especially those the Italians suspect to be terrorists or released prisoners sent by Gaddafi, but the authorities on Lampedusa are often left to guess and use racial profiling to decide who stays and who goes.
In many ways, Italy is paying the price for befriending one of the most controversial leaders on the planet. While many countries scorned Gaddafi, Italy invested millions of Euros (and its reputation) by forging a lucrative friendship with its former colony based on oil and infrastructure contracts. Silvio Berlusconi and Gaddafi have exchanged 11 state visits in Tripoli and Rome during the last two years. Berlusconi’s photo shaking hands with Gaddafi is even embossed on an inner-page of Libyan passports. Rumors abound that Berlusconi’s famed “bunga bunga” ritual was borrowed from the Libyan leader.
Italy and Libya signed a landmark “friendship deal” signed in 2009. Then, Italy was having an illegal immigration crisis and the centers in Lampedusa were overflowing, though nothing compared to the current state. Back then rioting prisoners took to the streets of the small island and set the detention center alight. Berlusconi was desperate and Gaddafi promised that he could stop the flow of immigrants from North Africa, patrolling the seas and acting as “bad cop” by ramming the boats and turning them back in ways that Italy could not. In exchange, Italy invested millions in Libya’s infrastructure.
The countries are now deeply entwined, so much so that Libya’s current crisis will affect the Italian economy. Over 100 Italian companies are present in Libya. In 2009, under the bilateral treaty, Italy promised $5 billion in infrastructure investments over a 25-year span. Italian companies, including ENI, which until last Thursday played a major role in oil production in Libya, do €11 billion ($16 billion) of business a year in Libya.
Last week as the U.N. deliberated the parameters of the no-fly zone now in effect, Libyan leaders threatened against Italian cooperation. When Libyans took to the streets in January and violence erupted, Berlusconi did not follow other world leaders by urging the dictator to exercise restraint. Instead, he insisted he didn’t want to “bother” Gaddafi. The reluctance to intervene when Italy may have been the only country the Libyan leader listened to was lost on no one, especially the Libyans. “Let’s hope Italy keeps out of this initiative,” Libyan Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim told the Italian news agency ANSA as the U.N. Security Council was voting on a no-fly zone. “We are certain Italy has Libya’s integrity and the protection of the population at heart. Let’s hope that it doesn’t consent to the use of its bases.”
Instead, Italy offered up its military bases at Aviano, Naples, and Puglia, in addition to two bases on the island of Sicily and one on Sardinia. They are now filled with foreign military aircraft and supply planes running missions over Libya. Italy also pledged eight of its own aircraft, which are now flying missions, and Italy is vying to make Naples the strategic command center for the whole NATO operation. Italy also froze $10 billion Libyan assets held in the country.
This is not the first time Italy and Libya have been in conflict. In 1986, after American aircraft bombed Tripoli and Benghazi, Libya shot two Scud-missiles at a former American coast guard base in Lampedusa. The missiles missed their target, but the threat was clear. Libya likely no longer has the power to fight back with a similar rocket launch, but they are showing their power to strike back at Italy in other ways.
After airstrikes began, Libyan armed men seized an Italian tugboat in Tripoli used to service the coastal oil platforms. Eight Italian crew members are now captive on the ship, which is “zig-zagging” out of control around the port of Tripoli, according to the Italian Foreign ministry, which believes the seizure is a direct retaliation for Italy’s involvement in the no-fly zone missions. In the last 24 hours, two boats bypassed Lampedusa and limped into the port of Catania on the Sicilian island. This time the immigrants were all Libyan. Many of them arrived barefoot, their clothes soaked with seawater from the treacherous voyage in rough seas. Four more boats arrived in Lampedusa, each with nearly 100 people onboard. The Italian coast guard says many more are on the horizon.
As the conflict gets bloodier, the flow of refugees is expected to increase—the United Nations Refugee Agency anticipates a deluge of up to 350,000 people fleeing the conflict zone, most by way of Italy—a subtle sign that no matter how it ends, Gaddafi will have kept his promise to get even.
Barbie Latza Nadeau, author of the Beast Book Angel Face, about Amanda Knox, has reported from Italy for Newsweek since 1997 and for The Daily Beast since 2009. She is a frequent contributor to CNN Traveller, Departures, Discovery and Grazia. She appears regularly on CNN, BBC and NPR.
They didn't have running water or electricity for 9 days. This evening electricity was turned on. For those of you who experienced power outs, you know how joyous it is to have power back on. Another important thing to note, or actually an impressive note worth mentioning is the international community destruction of a column of Qadaffii tanks and armored vehicles inside the city.
This is due to more collaboration between revolutionaries on the ground and international forces in the skies and seas. The revolutionaries are apparently giving the international community forces coordinates.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"international community", newspeak for USrael and Co.
The Bush Doctrine of preemption echoed by Obama:
"Left unchecked, we have every reason to believe that Qaddafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die. A humanitarian crisis would ensue. The entire region could be destabilized, endangering many of our allies and partners. The calls of the Libyan people for help would go unanswered. The democratic values that we stand for would be overrun. Moreover, the words of the international community would be rendered hollow."
Bush told us Saddam was "killing his own people," and now Obama is telling us Gadhafi could possibly kill "many thousands" of Libyans.
Same sandwich. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: "international community", newspeak for USrael and Co.
How would Israel benefit from a free Libya, a free Egypt, a free Tunisia, a free Arab World?
Benyamin Netanyahu is on record supporting Mubarak and pleading to Western nations to prop up Mubarak during the Egyptian revolution. Netanyahu told them Mubarak was in the best interest of Israel and regional stability.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Those anti-black racist tribalists in Benghazi dont want a "free" Libya. Neither does USrael and Co. Nice try. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Those anti-black racist tribalists in Benghazi dont want a "free" Libya. Neither does USrael and Co. Nice try.
How would Israel benefit from a free Libya, a free Egypt, a free Tunisia, a free Arab World?
Benyamin Netanyahu is on record supporting Mubarak and pleading to Western nations to prop up Mubarak during the Egyptian revolution. Netanyahu told them Mubarak was in the best interest of Israel and regional stability.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Repeating obvious nonsense is your idea of a rational argument? Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Repeating obvious nonsense is your idea of a rational argument?
How would Israel benefit from a free Libya, a free Egypt, a free Tunisia, a free Arab World?
Benyamin Netanyahu is on record supporting Mubarak and pleading to Western nations to prop up Mubarak during the Egyptian revolution. Netanyahu told them Mubarak was in the best interest of Israel and regional stability.
Yes Because you can't answer it. So come again how this is all "USrael" Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
To the contrary, I don't see USrael benefiting from a free and truly democratic Arab world, especially in Egypt. However, I fail to see what this has to do with the anti-black racist tribalists in Benghazi and the USrael crusade there. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: To the contrary, I don't see USrael benefiting from a free and truly democratic Arab world, especially in Egypt. However, I fail to see what this has to do with the anti-black racist tribalists in Benghazi and the USrael crusade there.
Alright fair enough.
Now regarding racism in Libya (particularity East Libya), it has to stop. And hopefully it will and the sooner this revolution is over the quicker the signaling out of black people in Libya will end. I expect an investigation and black people who are in custody for no other reason than being black to be released. This is a matter that should be pursued and again investigated. The AU, HRW and the UN should investigate any crimes of this nature thoroughly.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: And hopefully it will and the sooner this revolution is over ...
You mean the sooner your pro-monarchy racist tribe takes power with USrael help. Please refrain form using "freedom and democracy" or even "revolutionaries" from here on. Racism and tribalism are not compatible with democratic ideals. Unless of course you live in Apartheid Israel. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: And hopefully it will and the sooner this revolution is over ...
You mean the sooner your pro-monarchy racist tribe takes power with USrael help. Please refrain form using "freedom and democracy" or even "revolutionaries" from here on. Racism and tribalism are not compatible with democratic ideals. Unless of course you live in Apartheid Israel.
Unfortunately racism exists in all societies whether democratic or not. This revolution is about the people of Libya fighting for freedom. It is in every sense of the word pro-democracy revolutionaries against the brutal regime of Qadaffi. Black people did in fact get caught in the revolution and many were in fact harmless migrants. Some were murdered. Some were helped out of Libya by the same people you call racist. Some black people were caught at the Tunisian border with AK-47s. Some black people were driven to safety by their landlords in Benghazi. Some black people were hidden by the employers in Benghazi. There is a room full of males from Mali, dressed in ordinary clothes, yet are held in detention. When asked why they were in custody, the answer was they had “trigger fingers” (swollen fingers), that were consistent with continuous firing of gun/machine guns. There were also fabricated reports of 80 black Africans that were hacked to death in the oil fields. It's a revolution and when it ends all the questions will be answered.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You are just piling on the Orwellian newspeak are you? LOL
You mean "This [uprising] is about people[s] of Libya fighting for [different things]."
If there was an "opposition" with a coherent goal the brutal USrael regime would have stated this. However, even they aren't sure who they are and what they really want, it keeps coming up in the various criticisms of this new war...although a news clip showed a WH spokesperson not even sure if USrael was in fact involved in a war. LOL!
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Egypt adopts pragmatic stance over Libyan crisis
by Ahmed Zaki Osman Wed, 23/03/2011 - 19:48
The Egyptian government has been keeping quiet over the Libyan crisis, fearing that the one million Egyptians who work there would be badly affected if Cairo supports the Western airstrikes against the regime of Muammar al-Qadhafi.
The two countries share a frontier of some 1000km that stretches from the Mediterranean coast into the Sahara desert. About 1.5 million Egyptians live and work in Libya, the largest community of Egyptians in the Middle East outside of Egypt. Around 100,000 Egyptians have fled Libya since violence erupted through the western and eastern borders of the country, according to the Egyptian government.
A popular revolt in Libya has posed the toughest challenge for Qadhafi in his 42 years in office. He reacted violently by attacking rebels and committing crimes against humanity, as described by international rights watch dogs.
On Wednesday, their fifth day of operations, Western powers enforcing the UN resolution for a no-fly zone launched more air strikes on pro-Qadhafi troops. A senior British commander said on Wednesday that the Libyan air force was destroyed.
“Because of the border and the number of Egyptians working there, Libya is a vital element of Egyptian national security, but there is uncertainty over what position Cairo should take,” says Mohamed Abdel Salam, an expert in national security affairs and editor in chief of the quarterly International Affairs.
“During the revolution, Cairo had two main challenges for its national security: the southern secession in Sudan, and the crisis in Libya. Egypt is overwhelmingly busy with administrating internal affairs, and now it has to pay serious attention to the turmoil on its borders,” adds Abdel Salam.
Egypt’s Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) has been in charge of running the country after the toppling of President Hosni Mubarak and has deployed army personnel and tanks in the streets of different cities to maintain security. Last month, after Libyan border guards had withdrawn from their side of the border with Egypt, the latter’s army sent additional forces to the area.
At a session of the Arab League, Egypt gave its support to the imposition of a no-fly zone over Libya, a move that aimed at preventing Qadhafi’s air force from attacking civilians. However, Secretary General of the Arab League Amr Moussa said on Sunday that the League’s decision was not designed to endorse the intense bombing and missile attacks undertaken by Western forces.
But British Prime Minister David Cameron alleged on Wednesday that Arab support for the military operation over Libya is "very strong," telling the House of Commons that Kuwait and Jordan would take part in the operation, and that Qatar already had planes in action.
“They are simply agents for the West,” says political analyst Refaat Sayyed Ahmad, referring to Moussa and the Arab countries that announced their participation in the Western military operations.
“Only the oil resources in Libya and Iran are not under the American hegemony," argues Ahmad.
“The US wanted simply to control these resources, but Egypt’s military can’t go and attack Libya because it would mean bowing to Western pressure, and also because it poses other threats.”
“The fall of Qadhafi wouldn’t come from airstrikes. The only way is to have troops on Libyan soil that are able to topple the regime. I guess Western forces are aware of the fact and hope for the participation of Egypt’s military in such an operation,” continues Ahmad.
US Defense Secretary Robert Gates arrived in Cairo on Wednesday on an unannounced two-day visit, during which he discussed operations in Libya with Field Marshall Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the head of Egypt's SCAF.
“[Gates] is especially appreciative of [Tantawi's] leadership and the performance of his military through a very tumultuous period in Egypt over the past several weeks," said Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell.
“Egypt can’t take part in the operation for two reasons: the fear that Qadhafi would target its citizens living in the troubled country, and also because Egypt’s military is concerned with administrating the internal affairs of the nation,” argues Abdel Salam.
On Tuesday, Egypt’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs called the Libya ambassador in Cairo to express disapproval of attacks on Egyptian citizens in Libya.
But for Abdel Salam, there are other reasons for Egypt's reluctance to intervene in Libya, such as not having a concrete vision of how to administer its foreign policy.
“Under the former regime, Egypt had a stance of not intervening in other countries' affairs. The post-Mubarak era hasn’t achieved a vision on how to manage its regional relations,” he says.
This month, Foreign Minister Nabil al-Araby said during a press conference with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that Egypt supports any people who demand more freedoms.
Later, after a meeting with the Bahraini ambassador to Cairo, al-Araby said that Egypt supports the Bahraini government.
Asked whether the fall of Qadhafi would benefit Egypt, Abdel Salam said: “I think that the Egyptian foreign policy towards Libya will be adopting a pragmatic stance concerning the stability of its border and its citizens, regardless of the issue of Qadhafi being in power or not.”
'No constitutional authority to take this nation to war'
President Barack Obama faced fierce criticism and even long-shot calls for his impeachment Wednesday over a US role in Libya that had no formal price tag and only a murky "exit strategy."
Excellent!!!
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Don't fret too much over this latest event in human affairs. In a couple more years there will be another U.S. president to pick on with the same shortcomings. And Mr. Obama should pointedly tell the democrats and republicans, libertarians, progressives, not so progressives and a host of other not important enough affiliations to mention, to kiss his ass...you folks can have this bullshit.
If Mrs Obama and her two daughters have any politcal awareness by now, and then, then they too should tell them and everyone connected to the world scene to kiss their asses too.
Maybe the autocrats and dictators are right about this stuff: some people need to stfu. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Don't fret too much over this latest event in human affairs. In a couple more years there will be another U.S. president to pick on with the same shortcomings. And Mr. Obama should pointedly tell the democrats and republicans, libertarians, progressives, not so progressives and a host of other not important enough affiliations to mention, to kiss his ass...you folks can have this bullshit.
If Mrs Obama and her two daughters have any politcal awareness by now, and then, then they too should tell them and everyone connected to the world scene to kiss their asses too.
Maybe the autocrats and dictators are right about this stuff: some people need to stfu.
Congress is playing politics as usual. What matters most is what voters think, and according to polls 60% of Americans support Military action in Libya.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Don't fret too much over this latest event in human affairs. In a couple more years there will be another U.S. president to pick on with the same shortcomings. And Mr. Obama should pointedly tell the democrats and republicans, libertarians, progressives, not so progressives and a host of other not important enough affiliations to mention, to kiss his ass...you folks can have this bullshit.
If Mrs Obama and her two daughters have any politcal awareness by now, and then, then they too should tell them and everyone connected to the world scene to kiss their asses too.
Maybe the autocrats and dictators are right about this stuff: some people need to stfu.
Congress is playing politics as usual. What matters most is what voters think, and according to polls 60% of Americans support Military action in Libya.
The polls have already been shown to be tailor made by the Think Tanks to yield a predetermined response.
90% of white Americans polled supported the invasion in Iraq. Exactly the outcome the administration's NEOCON element desired.
Look where we are today with Israel benefiting at America's expense due to dependence on Zionist denominated Think Tank designed polling questions and geographies.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Germany Pulls Forces Out of NATO by lewrockwell
Germany is protesting the Libyan aggression. Now, Germany, pull out of the US straitjacket called NATO entirely. In 1952, Stalin offered a great deal to the US: he would pull his troops out of East Germany and allow the country to be reunited, provided it was as a peaceful, neutral, demilitarized nation that would be part of neither Nato nor the Warsaw Pact, much like Finland. The US rejected this proposal, ensuring another 47 years under the Communist boot for the East Germans. Capitalism with no strangling military or merchants of death! What a paradise Stalin offered his former ally, the US. But Germany can still have it all. Germans, you must kick the US occupation bases off your soil, too. Be peaceful, neutral, your own country, not dominated by any foreign superpower.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: The polls have already been shown to be tailor made by the Think Tanks to yield a predetermined response.
90% of white Americans polled supported the invasion in Iraq. Exactly the outcome the administration's NEOCON element desired.
Look where we are today with Israel benefiting at America's expense due to dependence on Zionist denominated Think Tank designed polling questions and geographies.
Exactly! Its the same sandwich! Its really amazing watching the so-called progressives using the very same tactics as the warmongering neocons. Not A Dime's Worth of Difference.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
UAE contributes 12 planes to Libya no-fly zone: US official
WASHINGTON (AFP) – The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has contributed 12 warplanes to the UN-backed no-fly zone over Libya, a US official said Thursday.
"We are deeply appreciative of their contribution," the official told AFP on the condition of anonymity.
The official did not confirm press reports they were six F-16 and six Mirage aircraft.
Amid fears that Arab states were slow to contribute, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Wednesday the United States expected "more announcements" of Arab participation in UN-backed military action in Libya in the coming days.
On Wednesday, five days after the United States, Britain and France launched air strikes to protect Libyans from Moamer Kadhafi's security forces, Qatar was the only Arab country to have offered warplanes for a no-fly zone.
Obama administration officials have said that pledges of Arab political leadership and active participation in a no-fly zone in a fellow Arab country were crucial to the US decision to go ahead with military action in Libya.
Following unpopular US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last decade, US officials had balked at launching a US military campaign in a third Muslim country that risked further fueling anti-American sentiment.
The 22-member Arab League endorsed the air exclusion zone in which allied warplanes and attacks on Libyan air defenses ground Kadhafi's air power.
A day after the military action began, Arab League Secretary General Amr Mussa had courted controversy by speaking out against the air and missile strikes against Libya, saying they exceed the bounds set by UN Resolution 1973.
But after a meeting with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in Cairo on Monday, Mussa got back behind the military strikes.
The United Nations Security Council voted on Resolution 1973 (2011) and adopted it by a vote of 10-0.
Article 25 of the UN Chapter: All member states must comply with UNSC resolutions or face consequences.
It's not simply justified, it is legitimate.
True, they voted on the resolution which stipulates "protection of civilians" presumably via a no-fly zone, but laughably, "not regime change", which is the stated goal of the "western" imperialist bunch enforcing the no-fly zone. To that end, the "western" bunch's actions are unjustified even going by the resolution.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You know your grabbing for straws when UAE and Qatar is your so-called "Arab support".
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by the Esplorer:
quote:True, they voted on the resolution which stipulates "protection of civilians" presumably via a no-fly zone, but laughably, "not regime change", which is the stated goal of the "western" imperialist bunch enforcing the no-fly zone. To that end, the "western" bunch's actions are unjustified even going by the resolution.
Indeed. The "protection of civilians" is a fig leaf, just like the "Arab contribution." Why don't they come right out and admit it:
(1) Payback time for all the years Ghadaffi has disturbed the Wrst including his complicity or claimed complicity with the Lockerbee bombing,
(2) It sets up a "crisis" that can be exploited in a greater game- such as keeping oil prices high and tethering US power more closely to the controllers of the game..
(3) It sets up a nice precedent for future imperialist control of TW areas, using "human rights" as cover, and what is more ironic, TW groups will be eager to help the process. It is an excellent, clever approach. Forget the racism and unpleasant gunboat diplomacy, strong-arming of the past. Now, the West can coat its actions as part of a "humanitarian" intervention.
Of course such "humanitarian" actions are highly selective. One million dead in the Sudan over 2 decades did not move the "friends of humanity" to any such military action. But let the Arab League and the its oil associated profits enter the picture and yes! We must "do" something.
The Libyan action, some say, is a template for the neo-imperialist order, exercised through the tentacles of the UN, itself controlled by the tentacles of the European Union bureaucracies, and Western financial interests.
Some say the above analysis is "left wing" or "communist." But in fact it is similar to the conclusions drawn by mainstream right wing and libertarian observers and commentators- that is the future dominance of interlocking UN bureaucracies, manipulated behind the scenes by other Western power brokers. And in fact, the same conclusion has been reached by friends of the State of Israel, who see a troubling precedent that in a future day will lead to the destruction of the Jewish state- lobbying by the Arab league, European hostility, a UN Resolution to "protect" whatever favored Palestinian or Arab entity the Europeans are in bed with at the time, and the planes and missiles are unleashed to teach the Jews a lesson. Some see this as a good thing.
The beauty of the neo-colonialist template is that it has something for everybody. And it undermines traditional TW loyalties because it can make common cause with any number of disgruntled tribes, factions, ethnic groups or what have you. There is something for everybody- liberals, conservatives, whomever. Hate blacks? Well, tough interventionist action can straighten them out. Think of what a no-fly zone format can do with Robert Mugabe for example, in collaboration with his opponents! Hate Jews? Well just manipulate the UN in collaboration with Jew enemies when the time is ripe and the full force of "the international community" (read Western power mostly) can be unleashed.
Hate white people? No problem. The template speaks expansively of multi-cultural diversity and black and brown faces will be put in front of various actions as cover, encouraging identification by the manipulated masses.
They got it all covered. Business should be brisk in the future as people get angry, not at the manipulators of the game, but angry that there isnt some intervention according to THEIR particular agenda. Either way, the neo-colonialist controllers make money and exercise control. Control is much more effective when your pawns think they are acting independently.
The template is a deceptive format of the first order, shrewd and well thought out. It will attract support too all the time- all you need again, is a disgruntled group somewhere to collaborate, and you are in business. Said group provides the cover while behind the scenes they are manipulated in a greater game.
Whatever the wheels set in motion, the "intervention" is not the simplistic goody two shoes, "we are the world" action some make it out to be. It is much more.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
Great point..1 million sudanese get killed and barely a wimper from the west. Darfur....They never even spoke about bombing Bashir.
Now we come to Libya and all they can say is that they want to "Save" Civilians and "stop" a mad man.
All this smells fishy...It smells even worse when you hear that Bahrain, Syria etc are also facing protest and killing their people. This whole world is in a depraved perverted mess. Its hard to find Truth in this disgusting world. All a person can do is cling To God(Yahoshua) and let his love guide you and protect you.
Peace
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
USrael control the UN. The notion that white Jews fear a UN mandate that will one day destroy their Apartheid state is a ploy to hide this fact.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Some of the "news" being served up for public consumptuion is patently bogus. Here for example is what one blogger reportss on the "official" government line:
"A no-fly zone has been imposed, and Gaddafi-loyalist armored columns have been destroyed outside Benghazi and Misrata. But there's no sign yet that those efforts can bring the conflict to a close.
Even if they succeed in halting the loyalist offensive to overrun rebel-controlled towns, U.S. military chiefs say their orders do not include mounting attacks in support of a rebel counteroffensive. Africom chief General Carter Ham told reporters Monday that his mission is limited to protecting civilians and forcing Gaddafi forces' withdrawal from rebel-held towns, but does not include protection or support for rebel combatants attacking regime forces."
Anyone not see the contradiction there? First, how could armored colums be driven back and lines of comm attacked and still float the claim that "their orders do not include mounting attacks in support of a rebel counteroffensive." If tanks are driven back and the rebels advance to consolidate new ground, as numerous news reports say they are doing, isn't that "supporting" offensive action by the rebels?
And note the second contradiction in the "official" line. The general says he is:
"limited to protecting civilians and forcing Gaddafi forces' withdrawal from rebel-held towns, .. but does not include protection or support for rebel combatants attacking regime forces."
lmao... does anyone really believe this drivel?
By forcing Gaddafi's forces to withdraw via relentless airstrikes, what the Western forces are doing is precisely what they claim they are not doing, helping the rebels to continue their attacks and advance. Free of the tanks, the rebels are free to move forward into better positions, awaiting the next round of "limited" Western airstrikes to further advance. America is in essence, providing free flying artillery to the rebels, who are in fact, using the feebies to advance.
And by forcing back attacking loyalists the good general is in fact "protecting" the rebels from liquidation- even as he claims he is not doing so.
And yet the public is expected to consume the double talk like lemmings, helped along by an uncritical media. Equally laughable is the fiction that the West is not trying to specifically oust Ghadaffi. yeah, right. SO lets get this straight. We will let rebel forces advance, and provide free flying artillery for them as they do so, but mind you we are not "supporting" any attacks? And we will be "handing off" soon to somebody else. Uh huh..
Why doesn't Obama just come clean and admit we are embroiled in someone else's full scale civil war in North Africa? Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
One scenario of how Ghadaffi can 'win'.. Not an "endorsement" of anything but a look at some possibilities. A "defence in width" strategy, adjusting tactics to neutralize Western airpower, might create conditions for a long drawn out civil war that will embarrass and exhaust 'the West'. This stalemate might create conditions where Moammar can still be at the bargaining table at the end of the day.
Under this scenario, what Moammar has to do is to maintain a resistance in-being that controls important chunks of the country in patchwork fashion. With that control he can create a stalemate, in which Libya is split into rebel-held areas and loyalist areas.
Since said West will spare numerous civilian targets in its air campaign, Moammar’s best bet is to use “hugging” and human shield tactics as the VC and NVA did in Vietnam. Human shield tactics means of course placing and transporting weapons, munitions and supplies mixed in as much as possible with the civilian population, and in civilian guise, neutralizing airpower by exploiting Western Rules of Engagement. It is a cynical business, again calling into question whether "victory" will be worth the cost for the ordinary masses.
Hugging tactics means Khadaffi’s forces need to fight as close as possible to the rebels. The VC/NVA called this “hanging on the belt” – fighting so close to US troops that they were unable to employ their full range of firepower in numerous engagements. Fighting close to the rebels means difficulty distinguishing “friendlies” from “enemies.” Fighting at a distance, such as rolling tanks in long columns for miles to attack some rebel position is a suicidal approach. Better he conceals and disperses his tanks and artillery and use them for quick strikes, rather than set-piece offensives. Another option is to dig into deep positions amid civilian structures and slug it out with the rebels when they get close. This too will neutralize Western airpower.
Moammar needs to avoid as much as possible a large-zone partition pattern as happened in Iraq with the Kurds. He needs to create a patchwork pattern, a jigsaw of loyalist strongholds that is fluid enough to stay close to the rebels in several different places. He needs to avoid clearly demarcated front lines, and fight throughout the country. While an important city might need to be protected, he must again avoid providing clear targets massed for opposing airpower, and blend his fighters as in the hugging and human shield tactics outlined above.
A "fight in width" strategy, will enhance survivability and maneuvering space. It will also stymie attempts to create a major Western sponsored rebel partition in Libya. Far from backing off the rebels, if he wants to stay in power, he needs to keep attacking to prevent a major land partition forming. Such an enclave will be extremely dangerous to him. The Western powers for example control the coastlines, so they can ship in massive supplies to build a major rebel partition. A major partition also means that the rebels can develop stronger defensive lines. Massing his forces in the open desert terrain to attack these enclaves will spell their doom. Hence he needs to fight relentlessly "in width" using deception to move men and material around, and split the rebel forces up into small, isolated areas. While the West will control the air, and will inflict localized pain, keeping the rebels under continuous pressure in limited pockets will allow Moammar to retain the initiative.
The stalemate will embarrass "the West" and force pressure for a settlement. Moammar can still be at the bargaining table as negotiations go forward, another embarrassment to the West, demonstrating its failure to remove him.
Course, all the above assumes Moammar can stay alive long enough to use the "fight in width" strategy. And is his staying in power really be a "victory"? The only losers may be the people of Libya.
Again Note: the above is not "endorsing" an extended fight. If Moammar exits with some sort of transitional arrangement and peace, the people of Libya will be better off than under a long destructive war lasting years. But if he intends to fight, the above may offer a scenario where he can create a stalemate and embarrass his enemies.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [qb] whinnne whinnne....
Asshole Explorer
Why do you love fuuking and suuking on your mother's bleeding vagina?
Shyte talker!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: USrael control the UN. The notion that white Jews fear a UN mandate that will one day destroy their Apartheid state is a ploy to hide this fact.
This is it, and it will succeed, simply because Ashkenazi Jews have plenty of loot, obtained from you and I by purchasing their exploited products and services, and by using the various government/sales taxes we pay.
You watch BET? You funding White Jews! You wearing FUBU? You are funding White Jews! You pay for movies? You are funding White Jews! You purchase music? $$$ In the Jew pocket! You pay US Federal Taxes? You are funding Israel!
If you are purchasing simple toilet paper (Koch Industries), internet service (Verizon, Time-Warner, Cox=Zionist control), corn flakes (Monsanto), Jay-Z/50 Cents CD or concert tickets(Russian Mob=Jews), then Da damn Jews got your money. In fact, if you cast your vote for Barack Obama, you were actually voting to maintain Jewish status quo and continued support of elevating Israel as, The Capital Of The world!
Self funded genocide! The Jews greatest invention.
Not to mention, the world's colored masses have been purposely plunged into poverty, to the level where they will willingly sell or compromise their DNA for peanuts or ignorance, allowing the diseased & impotent Jews to use their human DNA to correct their own in-bred genetic reproductive and immunization defectiveness.
Cystic Fibrosis (one symptom of Albinism) is detected in 97% of the Ashkenazi Jewish population, although the media erroneously states that it primarily effects WHITE Males. Careful not to speak truthfully that these are in fact Jews which would likely alienate other groups from willing mating with Jews, once they fully understood the true ramifications of mixing normal DNA with that of Jews.
This one statistic alone will make for a very desperate group of ancient subterranean dwellers, Nazi-like and relentless in their approach.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Henry says: ''Anyone not see the contradiction there?''
The contradiction is plain to see, that's a given. What isn't a given is the U.S. government or any government participating expects anyone to suspend their intelligence at all.
Questions are asked by reporters, the government gives answers they know reporters aren't going to like. So what. They asked the questions.
Governments don't like reporters because they ask too many and there you have it. The answers don't jive intelligently, the government says well you asked, I told you, figure it out. Then what's left. Bloggers and the internet roll out answers trying to analyze why governments are feeding bs and then the interneters say they're on to the bs, all the while knowing that it is. But that makes some feel good because they think the governments think they can't recognize bs when they see it so they respond to the bs. The governments respond with ''What kind of answer do you need the next time. The truth as I see it or the truth you don't want to hear. Didn't you get it the first time around''? The internet and reporters say ''No we didn't.'' So they ask again, ''Why are you bs-ing us?'' The government then says ''What!' Are you serious?''
The governments then go ahead with its business of missiles probably wondering why they didn't really think this through themselves and saying by now ''aw ****''. But it's too late. So the missiles continue.
Then the governments start seeking insiders in the colonel's house hoping someone will assassinate him., thereby relieving them of a protracted engagement. This then gets the reporters off their backs ...temporarily.
The reporters ask, ''Who do you think got to the colonel?'' The government(?) says ''We have no information on who is responsible.'' The reporters say all over again ''BS!'' The government/s then say ''What made you ask this same question--again?''
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: You know your grabbing for straws when UAE and Qatar is your so-called "Arab support".
Arab states participation is instrumental, and directly lead to the current military action. The US would not have agreed to the resolution without AL approval of NFZ, and without Arab military participation, and without Arab states paying some of the costs. Clinton made this clear before the US agreed to the draft resolution.
AL approval was also a factor in China and Russia abstaining rather than vetoing the resolution.
“U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that since the Arab League backed a no-fly zone over Libya there has been a “sea change” in international opinion toward favoring the action.”
“Russia and China, who have questioned a no-fly zone at the UN, are reconsidering after the Arab League statement on Saturday,”
The number of planes might only be 16, but the significance of Arab involvement from A to Z was/is instrumental to in the adoption of the UNSC Resolution. I would not be surprised to hear that main boulevards in Libya are renamed after Qatar and UAE.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You know you are desperate when the very autocratic anti-democratic states you are crying against are the ones you are cheering for "approval". Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
The only one desperate is Qadaffi and anyone who supports him. The revolutionaries have all the confidence in the world at this point.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
You know deep down you're a hypocrite.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: You know deep down you're a hypocrite.
Your delusions, conspiracy theories, personal attacks, and fabrications are not substitutes for facts on the ground. Libya will be free, live with it. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Libya may force Gaddafi out, but LOL, it will never be FREE. That is unless you believe Saudi is Free.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
If you think about it, unlike Sadam or Milosevic, Gaddafi is a legitimate target, given his "Colonel" status.
King you are right, but they'll be a damned sight freer than they are now.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: If you think about it, unlike Sadam or Milosevic, Gaddafi is a legitimate target, given his "Colonel" status.
King you are right, but they'll be a damned sight freer than they are now.
That's baloney. Every dictator is the Commander of his army, even Saddam.
There is no "Free" in Capitalism. All we are seeing is the expansion of opportunities for international banking since every everyone in the so-called developed world (US, UK, Russia, Canada, Europe) is in hock up to their necks. To continue growth, the banks need new customers and opportunities. They have id'ed the Middle-east, China, and India as their new feasting grounds, but first they need to till the fields.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: Libya may force Gaddafi out, but LOL, it will never be FREE. That is unless you believe Saudi is Free.
MelanKing, you're an educated man, how about we leave the “LOL” to the kids? I truly believe Libya will be free. I also believe it is in the best position for prosperity and reconciliation. It is a very wealthy country, to date more than $200 billion of Qadaffi/Libya assets have been frozen. $82 billion in Switzerland, 31 Billion in the US, 32 Billion in the UK, 10 Billion in Italy, etc. Even if this tremendous capital were to disappear - Libya has more than 1 trillion dollars worth of oil reserves. The starting point is $14K GDP (PPP), with a transparent government that can easily rise to $20K per annum in the short term and $30K-$40K in the long-term.
What's my point:
These immense asset, and immense potential, in addition to a relatively small population assures one thing – Libyans don't have to worry about money. This will makes things so much easier for them as they transition from dictatorship to a democracy. They won't have to fight about where each and ever dollar/euro goes. This is huge, a content society is complacent and will be more than willing to compromise. This will facilitate reconstruction, reconciliation, legislation and ultimately freedom. Libya is about as great a prospect for freedom and prosperity as you will ever come across. I didn't even get into religion, 97% are Muslims, 96% are Sunnis. This isn't Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain or any other Arab country for that matter. The sky is the limit for Libyans Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@ King. Exactly. It's all relative. What is "free" anyway? No country is. I'm sure the revolutionaries will find that the problems they have eradicated are replaced by a different set. But when your problem is having no electricity (cut off by the government), no water (cut off by the government), not being able to go out to get food for the fear of getting shot (on government orders)... you have to come to a point where you say, well, things couldn't get any worse.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh, Qatar and UAE are fighting for a free Arab world.
quote:These immense asset, and immense potential, in addition to a relatively small population assures one thing – Libyans don't have to worry about money. This will makes things so much easier for them as they transition from dictatorship to a democracy...This will facilitate reconstruction, reconciliation, legislation and ultimately freedom.
We have seen this before. With its vast oil wealth, Iraqis can pay their way to reconstruction and prosperity, oh, and they will be free. Same sandwich people. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: Libya may force Gaddafi out, but LOL, it will never be FREE. That is unless you believe Saudi is Free.
MelanKing, you're an educated man, how about we leave the “LOL” to the kids? I truly believe Libya will be free. I also believe it is in the best position for prosperity and reconciliation. It is a very wealthy country, to date more than $200 billion of Qadaffi/Libya assets have been frozen. $82 billion in Switzerland, 31 Billion in the US, 32 Billion in the UK, 10 Billion in Italy, etc. Even if this tremendous capital were to disappear - Libya has more than 1 trillion dollars worth of oil reserves. The starting point is $14K GDP (PPP), with a transparent government that can easily rise to $20K per annum in the short term and $30K-$40K in the long-term.
I have to LOL, because you cats fail to grasp history and seem so very naive.
Do you think the US and Israel aren't fully aware of Libya's resources? They know exactly how much loot is available to Libya, exactly how much oil is in reserve and how much they will produce in the future.
They knew that Saddam had over 1 million barrels of Oil reserves prior to the invasion he was forced to store because of the embargo. Surprisingly, these oil reserves disappeared right after the invasion and hasn't been found. The Iraqi people have asked Washington about it, but received no response. Is Iraq free? Libya will soon be in the same boat, and possibly worst. However, you cats have your internal enemies which will lead you to cut off your own nose to spite your face. Live and learn.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Qatar and UAE are fighting for a free Arab world.
quote:These immense asset, and immense potential, in addition to a relatively small population assures one thing – Libyans don't have to worry about money. This will makes things so much easier for them as they transition from dictatorship to a democracy.
We have seen this before. With its vast oil wealth, Iraqis can pay their way to prosperity, oh, and they will be free. Same sandwich.
Iraq:
1.Invaded Illegally 2.40% Shia – 35% Sunni – 30% Kurds 3. 30 Million Population 4. GDP $2.5 Starting
Libya:
1.Revolution and aided legally (which Libyans asked for) with UNSC 1973/2011 2. 96% Sunnis 3. 6 Million Population 4. GDP $14K Starting
Apples and Oranges. I should get paid for teaching.
Same exact sandwish. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Correction Kurds 20%
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Qatar and UAE are fighting for a free Arab world.
quote:These immense asset, and immense potential, in addition to a relatively small population assures one thing – Libyans don't have to worry about money. This will makes things so much easier for them as they transition from dictatorship to a democracy.
We have seen this before. With its vast oil wealth, Iraqis can pay their way to prosperity, oh, and they will be free. Same sandwich.
Iraq:
1.Invaded Illegally 2.40% Shia – 35% Sunni – 30% Kurds 3. 30 Million Population 4. GDP $2.5 Starting
Libya:
1.Revolution and aided legally (which Libyans asked for) with UNSC 1973/2011 2. 96% Sunnis 3. 6 Million Population 4. GDP $14K Starting
Apples and Oranges. I should get paid for teaching.
Same exact sandwish.
Iraq, dissidents asked for the kicking out of Saddam Hussein and the subsequent invasion was legally authorized United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Apples and Oranges. I should get paid for teaching.
Same exact sandwish.
Dont worry the world is full of simpleton teachers.
Both countries are/were headed by socialist anti-Zyonist leaders who shamed the pro-western corrupt sheiks with their social and economic achievements. Both countries have vast oil wealth. Both countries have/had leaders were are anti-Islamic fundamentalist, hence hated by al Queda, ally of west. Bogus humanitarian interventionist claims were made for both countries. Both countries are "tribalised" in the sense that they have entrenched political and sectarian loyalties, hence terrorist center in Benghazi.
Same sandwich simpleton. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Qatar and UAE are fighting for a free Arab world.
quote:These immense asset, and immense potential, in addition to a relatively small population assures one thing – Libyans don't have to worry about money. This will makes things so much easier for them as they transition from dictatorship to a democracy.
We have seen this before. With its vast oil wealth, Iraqis can pay their way to prosperity, oh, and they will be free. Same sandwich.
Iraq:
1.Invaded Illegally 2.40% Shia – 35% Sunni – 30% Kurds 3. 30 Million Population 4. GDP $2.5 Starting
Libya:
1.Revolution and aided legally (which Libyans asked for) with UNSC 1973/2011 2. 96% Sunnis 3. 6 Million Population 4. GDP $14K Starting
Apples and Oranges. I should get paid for teaching.
Same exact sandwish.
Iraq, dissidents asked for the kicking out of Saddam Hussein and the subsequent invasion was legally authorized United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441
That is not accurate. UNSC Resolution 1441 did not in any way authorize an invasion of Iraq. There is no language whatsoever in the resolution that authorized the invasion of Iraq.
The Invasion of Iraq was illegal, this is common knowledge.
Here is the entire resolution:
UN Security Council Resolution 1441 (2002)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 4644th meeting, on 8 November 2002 The Security Council, Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President, Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,
Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,
Further recalling that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,
Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,
Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,
Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council’s repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,
Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,
Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein, Determined to ensure full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions and recalling that the resolutions of the Council constitute the governing standard of Iraqi compliance,
Recalling that the effective operation of UNMOVIC, as the successor organization to the Special Commission, and the IAEA is essential for the implementation of resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions, Noting that the letter dated 16 September 2002 from the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq addressed to the Secretary-General is a necessary first step toward rectifying Iraq’s continued failure to comply with relevant Council resolutions, Noting further the letter dated 8 October 2002 from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq laying out the practical arrangements, as a follow-up to their meeting in Vienna, that are prerequisites for the resumption of inspections in Iraq by UNMOVIC and the IAEA, and expressing the gravest concern at the continued failure by the Government of Iraq to provide confirmation of the arrangements as laid out in that letter,
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States, Commending the Secretary-General and members of the League of Arab States and its Secretary-General for their efforts in this regard, Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions, Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);
2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;
3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, subcomponents, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;
4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;
5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC’s or the IAEA’s choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi Government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter;
6. Endorses the 8 October 2002 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;
7. Decides further that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the Council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq, to facilitate their work in
Iraq: – UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;
– All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities, corresponding to those of experts on mission, provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA;
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to Presidential Sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998) of 2 March 1998;
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq’s chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programmes and the associated research, development, and production facilities;
– Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient United Nations security guards;
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare, for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles;
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof; and
– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;
8. Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or the IAEA or of any Member State taking action to uphold any Council resolution;
9. Requests the Secretary-General immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;
10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;
11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;
12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;
13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;
14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Coalition of Crusaders Join with al Qaeda to Oust Qaddafi and Roll Back Libyan Revolution Wed, 03/23/2011 - 07:49 — Gerald A. Perreira
* British Plot with Al Qaida Against Gaddafi
by Gerald A. Perreira
The West – the former colonial powers and the United States – have not only coordinated their assault on Libya, but orchestrated the rebellion against Col. Qaddafi from the start, says the author. Qaddafi's claim that al Qaeda is involved is only dismissed by those who fail to understand that “al Qaeda is a Wahhabi/Salafi ideological movement and it has reinvigorated Salafi movements and cells worldwide.” Qaddafi deserves support at this critical hour, as “a revolutionary leader who has consistently opposed western hegemony in the Arab and African World.”
A coalition of Crusaders, as Qaddafi described them, including the US, Britain, France, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Spain and Canada, have begun an all out military assault against Libya. Using what Libya claims is an invalid and illegal UN resolution as a pretext, the coalition is pounding the Libyan defense forces with a military might that has not been seen since the Gulf war.
The real and illegal goal of what has been called Operation “Odyssey Dawn” is “regime change.” A replay of the nightmarish Gulf war scenario, the plan is clear: to disable Libya's defense ability, and to arm and strengthen the reactionary conglomerate of rebel forces in Benghazi, in the hope that this rag tag bunch will roll back, once and for all, the Libyan revolution.
This is not the first imperialist attempt to lynch Qaddafi and bring Libya to its knees. In 1986, the US falsely accused Libya of the bombing of a discotheque in Berlin and Reagan attempted to assassinate Qaddafi, by bombing the Bab al-Azizia compound in Tripoli where he was housed, killing Qaddafi's daughter and over one hundred Libyans. Next, Libya was falsely accused of the 1988 Lockerbie bombing as an excuse for initiating sanctions, in order to economically cripple the revolution.
Not the first time Britain and al Qaeda have collaborated on Libya
In 1996, British intelligence employed the services of an al Qaeda cell inside Libya, paying them a huge fee to assassinate Muammar Qaddafi. A grenade was lobbed at Qaddafi as he walked among a crowd in his hometown, Sirte. He was saved by one of his bodyguards, who threw herself on the grenade.
Former MI5 operative David Shayler revealed that while he was working on the Libya desk in the mid 90s, British secret service personnel were collaborating with the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which is connected to one of Osama bin Laden’s trusted lieutenants.
Muammar Qaddafi and the Libyan revolutionary forces were the first to issue an arrest warrant for Osama bin Laden. They have spent years trying to warn the world about the very serious threat posed by these Islamic deviants. According to Shayler, western intelligence turned a deaf ear to Libya's warnings because they were actually working with the al Qaeda group inside Libya, to bring down Qaddafi and the Libyan revolution.
Anas al Libi was a member of the Libyan al-Qaeda cell. He remains on the US government’s most wanted list, with a reward of $25 million for his capture, and is wanted for his involvement in the African embassy bombings. al Libi was with bin Laden in Sudan before the al Qaeda leader returned to Afghanistan in 1996.
Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, despite being a high-level al Qaeda operative, al Libi was given political asylum in Britain and lived in Manchester until May of 2000.
Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)
The claims by Qaddafi and the Libyan revolutionary forces that the rebels in Benghazi are inspired by al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and the serious threat this poses, not only to Libya but to the entire region, are once again falling on deaf ears, just as David Shayler said they did back in the mid 90s. Why? Because once again, British intelligence forces, among others, are clearly in collaboration with the rebels in Benghazi - those referred to all over Libya as the 'bearded ones', who have close ties to al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.
The evidence for this is overwhelming. As revealed by Shayler, the British have a long standing relationship with the al Qaeda affiliated Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, based inside Libya. The British also have an historical relationship with the Wahhabi/Salafi brand of Islam, espoused today by Ikhwan al Muslimeen (Mulsim Brotherhood) and their offshoots, including al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.
A Battle with a Long History
In 1744, an alliance was formed between the founder of Wahhabism, Muhammad ibn Abdal-Wahhab and the ruthless tribal leader, Muhammad ibn Saud, whose descendants rule Saudi Arabia up to today. This reactionary brand of Islam was the perfect theological foundation for the colonial creation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and Wahhabism remains the official Islamic tendency in Saudi Arabia up till today. In 1915, the British entered into a treaty with the murderous House of Saud, protecting their lands and supplying them with weaponry, as part of the colonial project to establish the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. At the same time, the British did everything they could to help the Wahhabist doctrine to flourish, recognizing it as the perfect ideological tool to further their imperialist objectives. Some scholars have argued that the British actually helped to create Wahhabism.
Imagine, today, the British are calling on the descendants of Muhammad ibn Saud, the current Saudi regime, and their present day army of Wahhabis in the form of al Qaeda, to join in a medieval crusade to crush a bastion of revolutionary Islam, which is present day Libya. And the contradictions verify this. We have to wonder why a Saudi government official can say on BBC that “to allow the people to choose their own government is a very bad thing”, and why, with all the Western outcry about women's rights in the Muslim world, the Saudi regime, which does not even allow women to vote or drive motorcars, is never questioned. Instead they are the ones that the Americans, British, and French are calling on to join them in the destruction of Libya which has liberated women and struggled to bring real democracy to its people.
As early as the mid 19th century, Wahhabi fundamentalism was imported into Benghazi by the reactionary and feudal Senussi fraternity. The influence of this tendency has been passed on from generation to generation, and Benghazi has been the center for those who have consistently opposed the liberatory Islam articulated by Qaddafi and implemented by the Libyan revolution.
The Muslims of Benghazi, who embrace the same ideology as al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, and have done for the last hundred years or more, have been reinvigorated in the last few years by AQIM's presence on Libya's borders. There is a renewed interest in the possibility of achieving the stated goal of AQIM, which is the establishment of an Wahhabi Islamic Emirate in the Maghreb, stretching over the entire North African region. When we understand the history of this region, we realize why the imperialists have not gone out of their way to find Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri and how and why these reactionary forces and doctrines are actually encouraged by western powers.
To understand Qaddafi's current claims about al Qaeda in the Maghreb, we have to understand both the history of this current battle and also the present day chapter: how al Qaeda affiliated organizations operate in the region in 2011. There is a deliberate attempt to misguide the uninformed with the suggestion that Qaddafi is throwing up a simplistic image of Osama bin Laden directing the rebellion in Benghazi from a cave somewhere, as a scare tactic. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Qaddafi is well aware of the reactionary aims of Wahhabism and understands only too well their modus operandi in the region. Being affiliated to al Qaeda does not mean that each cell refers to an al Qaeda central command. Rather, al Qaeda is a Wahhabi/Salafi ideological movement and it has reinvigorated Salafi movements and cells worldwide. The term Salafi simply refers to a contemporary strain of Wahhabism.
If there remains any skepticism regarding Qaddafi's claims, let us turn to the Washington based think tank, the Council on Foreign Relations, which gives us a description of AQIM's operations in the region.
On their official website they state:
“Terrorist activity in North Africa has been reinvigorated in the last few years by a local Algerian Islamist group turned pan-Maghreb jihadi organization: al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). A Sunni group that previously called itself the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), the organization has taken responsibility for a number of terrorist attacks in the region, declared its intention to attack Western targets, and sent a squad of jihadis to Iraq. Experts believe these actions suggest widening ambitions within the group's leadership, now pursuing a more global, sophisticated, and better-financed direction. Long categorized as part of a strictly domestic insurgency against Algeria's military government, AQIM claims to be the local franchise operation for al Qaeda, a worrying development for a region that has been relatively peaceful since the bloody Algerian civil war of the 1990s drew to a close. European officials are taking AQIM's international threats seriously and are worried about the growing number of Europe-based cells.”
The Struggle Continues
This current battle in Benghazi is not new in Libya. For many years, the revolutionary forces have been struggling to keep this feudal, reactionary brand of Islam in check.
On February 24th, 2011, at the very outset of the Benghazi rebellion, al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb posted the following statement on the al Qaeda affiliated al Fajr website: "We declare our support for the legitimate demands of the Libyan revolution. We assert to our people in Libya that we are with you and will not let you down, God willing. We will give everything we have to support you, with God's grace."
A few days after this statement was issued by AQIM, al Libi resurfaced. The same al Libi exposed by David Shayler as an al Qaeda operative working inside Libya back in the 90s. Now a top al Qaeda commander based in Afghanistan, he urged his countrymen to overthrow Muammar Qaddafi's regime and establish Islamic rule. Al Libi, a pseudonym that means 'the Libyan' in Arabic, said in a video, produced by As-Sahab, the media wing of al Qaeda, that “it would bring shame to the Libyan people if the strongman (Qaddafi) were allowed to die a peaceful death”.
Al Qaeda and Drugs in the Maghreb
Libya's revolutionary forces have also made continual references to the fact that there are drug problems in the region and that many of the young people are affected. Once again, this claim was scoffed at by Western media and analysts, who are ill informed about what is actually taking place on the ground.
As recently as November 2010, Moroccan police detained 34 people with ties to al Qaeda in the Islamic Mahgreb, attempting to move 1,300 pounds of cocaine through the country.
Moroccan Interior Minister, Taieb Cherquaoui said "We are dealing with an apparent coordination and collaboration between drug traffickers and terrorists linked to al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.”
He added that the leader of AQIM's drug ring was detained in Mali, and he stated that the international drug peddling ring involved local Moroccan drug traffickers, who were collaborating with al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, as well as cartels in Latin America.
Until recently, Moroccan authorities have been able to keep the actions of al Qaeda inside Morocco at bay. The drug activity, however, has now revealed the extremist organization's growing network, and the interior minister expressed “the urgent need for the Sahel countries to collaborate to secure their territories and to fight the group's expansion.”
Tragically, the “coalition of crusaders” has seen fit to pound Qaddafi's defense installations, thereby preventing Libya from being able to challenge AQIM's expansion into their sovereign territory.
In a further development on this front, the Wahhabi spiritual leader of Ikhwan al Muslimeen, Egyptian cleric, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, issued a fatwa stating that any Libyan soldier who can shoot dead embattled leader Muammar Qaddafi should do so "to rid Libya of him."
Qaradawi is a neo-feudalist, who has defended the practice of female genital mutilation, called for the death penalty to be applied to those who leave Islam and advocates separate systems of law for different classes of citizens. Such are the views of those who are opposing Muammar Qaddafi.
In a letter to Barak al Hussein Obama and in a separate letter to Sarkozy, Cameron and Banki Moon hours before the coalition launched its first military strikes, Qaddafi stated clearly that the destabilization of Libya's eastern cities was being inspired and assisted by al Qaeda in the Islamic Magreb, and he invited member states of the coalition to come to Libya and confirm this reality for themselves.
Of course, just as the war in Iraq was not about establishing the truth regarding weapons of mass destruction, this war against Libya was not about discovering the truth of events on the ground or verifying Qaddafi's claims. When we understand the historical and present day facts, we realize that the crusader coalition is well aware of exactly who they are fighting and who they are supporting. In fact, that is why they were in such a hurry to act – to prevent any international fact finding mission which would verify Qaddafi's claims for the world to see.
In the letter to Obama, Qaddafi asked him if al Qaeda was occupying American cities what Obama would do so that he (Qaddafi) could follow his lead. All to no avail, because Qaddafi has been demonised to the point of being inhuman and therefore not requiring even the courtesy of a response. Named by US media as the Castro of the Middle East there is only one aim – remove him by any means necessary.
Why?
In contrast to the Wahhabis and the neo-colonial regimes in the region, Qaddafi is a revolutionary leader who has consistently opposed western hegemony in the Arab and African World. Libya's revolution has, for the past three decades, assisted liberation movements all over the world struggling against neo-colonialism and imperialism.
Libya's oil resources are of course a factor. We know for sure that control of oil resources is a top priority for the the US and Europe. but even more worrying for the imperialists is Qaddafi's call for a United States of Africa – with one government, one army and one currency.
Not surprisingly, the actions taken against Qaddafi and Libya are in stark contrast to western inaction with regard to events on the ground in other countries in the region such as Yemen, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia, where protesters are being shot in the streets. In the case of Bahrain, protesters are being brutally suppressed with the assistance of invading Saudi ground forces and in Saudi Arabia itself, the regime has told its people that “anyone who raises a finger against the Saudi monarchy will have their finger cut off!.”
The so-called international community can barely name their long time partner in crime, Saudi Arabia, in their pronouncements, such is their support for this most undemocratic of regimes. In fact, far from condemning the actions of these governments, the Crusading coalition is frantically trying to get some of these same Arab countries to actively join the military operation against Libya so that this whole thing does not look like another US and European led aggression.
Are we going to hear impassioned pleas regarding the aspirations of the people of Bahrain and Saudi Arabia? Are the US, Britain and France going to launch attacks on Yemen and Bahrain to assist the uprisings there to achieve regime change. I don't think so.
Arab League legitimizes Crusade
The Arab League endorsed this imperialist attack on Libyan soil despite the nightmare of Iraq, where the number of civilian deaths has now reached one and a half million. It is an honor for Qaddafi to have no support among this league of bloated imperialist surrogates. At a recent meeting, he told them, prophetically it now seems, that they should be ashamed of themselves, having sat by and watched the US hang the entire leadership of the Iraqi Arab Ba'ath regime. It should be noted that although there were serious ideological and political differences between Qaddafi and Saddam Hussein, Libya took a principled position regarding hostile external aggression against Iraq. A few days ago, the National Leadership of the Arab Ba'ath Socialist Party issued a statement expressing solidarity with the revolutionary forces of Libya.
The Arab League has been consistently embarrassed by Qaddafi's outspoken criticism of their double standards and hypocrisy with regard to Palestine, Iraq and a host of other issues, they are terrified by Qaddafi's revolutionary Islam, and are contemptuous of Black Africa and Qaddafi's attempts to bring about African-Arab unity.
Recently, when Qaddafi urged Libyans to intermarry with Africans, following the example of Prophet Muhammad himself, who encouraged intermarriage between races, Libyan and Arab contempt for Black Africans re-surfaced. Extremely few fair skinned Arabs would sanction the marriage of their daughters to a Black African. Rarely do fair skinned Libyans marry Black Libyans. Their disdain for Black people runs deep.
“The Arab League are terrified by Qaddafi's revolutionary Islam, and are contemptuous of Black Africa and Qaddafi's attempts to bring about African-Arab unity.”
In fact, across other Arab countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and the Gulf States, the horror stories emerging regarding the mistreatment of African domestic servants is reminiscent of the kind of treatment meted out to Black people during the days of chattel slavery. So a project for the development and unification of all of Africa, uniting, on equal terms, the 'Arab' north with Black Africa, is not close to the hearts of many fair skinned Arabs. Qaddafi is an exception to the rule.
In his book “Islam and the Third Universal Theory: The Religious Thought of Muammar Qaddafi,” the respected Muslim scholar, Mahmoud Ayoub, states that:
“he (Qaddafi) wishes to follow the example of the Prophet who fought with such determination against oppression and inequality in society that Bilal, the Black slave, became equal with his master Umayyah. He sees his own mission and the task of the
Libyan revolution as having the same motivations and goal for modern Muslim society. The basic aim of the Green Book is to present in general and contemporary terms the ideals of justice and equality which Qaddafi sees in the Qur'an and the life of the Prophet and his community.”
And what of Libya's African neighbors?
'A Million Man March'
Already an estimated 16,000 African freedom fighters (not mercenaries as the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera would have us believe) have poured into Libya from the Congo, Guinea, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Niger, Chad, Mauritania, Southern Sudan, Kenya, Ethiopia and Burkina Faso to fight to the death for the Libyan revolution and Brother Muammar Al Qaddafi.
According to an official in northern Mali, hundreds of young Tuaregs from Mali and Niger are also among the African fighters, "We’re very worried", said Assalat Ag Abdou Salam, president of the Regional Assembly of Kidal, "These young people are moving in droves to Libya. It’s very dangerous for us because whether Qaddafi wins or falls the impact will be felt in our region."
We are witnessing a Pan-African unity on the ground that we have never seen before. Who is this man and this revolution that has the moral authority and power to draw an army of Africans from every corner of the continent?
One Tripoli resident answered with the following statement: “Qaddafi is our Che Guevara, and for Libyans and many people around the world, he is a symbol of freedom and democracy.”
He explained that the West does not understand Libya and the age old tribal and religious battles that are being waged, and pointed out, that even if Qaddafi was to leave Libya, these armed gangs and tribes would fight till judgment day. He added that it is Qaddafi who has tried for the last 40 years to overcome these age old conflicts and the backwardness that accompanies them, and build real democracy, through a system of people's congresses and popular committees.
He finished by saying that “the West does not know this man but that they would surely come to know who he is now.”
The Pan-Africanism we are finally witnessing is not the ivory tower academic brand, which has been viewed as relatively harmless and ineffective by the imperialists, but a grassroots Pan-Africanism - bottom up - which has given birth to the continent's first Pan-African army, willing to lay down their lives for a revolution and a leader that they love and to whom they owe a great deal.
Many of these fighters and liberation movements have received education, military training and assistance from Libya when they were battling imperialist backed despotic regimes in their own countries, and now they are determined to defend the man and country who stood by them in their darkest hour. This attack on Libya has serious repercussions for the entire African continent.
The Pan-Africanist Congress of Azania (South Africa) travelled to Libya to meet with Qaddafi face to face and express their support and solidarity. They issued a statement expressing “their support to Qaddafi, who had been crucial to the PAC during the days of apartheid in South Africa.” “We have a long cooperation with Qaddafi himself and Libya. Our cadres were trained in Libya by Qaddafi and a friend is a friend no matter what,” said the party’s spokesman, Mzwanele Nyhontso.
Qaddafi has been a friend to all oppressed peoples throughout the world. There is hardly a liberation movement that has not been helped in some way by Qaddafi and Libya over the past three decades. He is our friend and brother and let's hope everyone is clear on who our enemies are.
The Emperor is naked - what's new?
Of course, imperialist maneuvers and crusades similar to this current one have been on going for centuries. In more recent times, from Vietnam to Iraq, we have seen the same scenario played out based on a litany of lies. So what is different this time around?
Certainly not the lying part – they are still weaving their usual web of lies. The African freedom fighter Kwame Ture, who had close ties with the Libyan revolution, warned us that “the imperialists don't just lie sometimes, they lie all the time.”
What is different is that things are changing for the imperialists as the world plunges deeper and deeper into chaos, and their ability to influence affairs worldwide is diminishing rapidly. In the midst of rebellions all over the Arab world, what is clear is that fewer and fewer people give a damn what the US and Europe thinks. So they saw fit to take desperate measures in an attempt to regain some political hegemony and limit the demise of their strategic influence in the region.
Even as Mussa Kussa, the Libyan Foreign Minister, announced a cease fire and the Libyan authorities determination to accept the UN resolution and utilize it in a positive way, the French and British were in a frenzy, trying to get international support for military strikes against the Libyan forces. We have witnessed their war mongering before, however, they were quite literally foaming at the bit this time.
“The imperialists will become more and more desperate in their attempts to regain their influence.”
Such a frenzy can only be understood against a backdrop of their dwindling ability to dominate. Even in the economic sphere, their power is decreasing, as China, India and Brazil emerge as vital new trading partners in Africa and South America. In the words of Kwame Nkrumah, “Neo-colonialism is not a sign of imperialism’s strength, but rather of its last hideous gasp”.
In 2011, the imperialists have brought the world to the brink of disaster. At an economic summit, at the outset of the current ongoing global capitalist crisis, former president of Brazil, Lula da Silva, publicly told the gathering that “the credit crunch was the fault of white, blue-eyed people.”
As the capitalist crisis worsens, and the world plunges deeper and deeper into chaos, the imperialists will become more and more desperate in their attempts to regain their influence and direct events worldwide as they are used to doing. Events which they are increasingly incapable of comprehending – not only because of the speed at which these events are occurring, but also because of the complexity of the events and the paradigm shifts taking place, that are, quite simply, far outside their western imagination.
Furthermore, they have lost all credibility as the Iraq and Afghanistan debacles continue. The Emperor is naked, and the hypocrisy of the Empire has become so transparent, that even the least informed observers are finally realizing that something is horribly wrong.
A Last Hideous Gasp?
Imperialism is experiencing its “last hideous gasp” and it is imperative for progressive and revolutionary movements worldwide to seize this moment and to oppose this current assault with all of our collective strength. Those who still struggle to see the wood from the trees remain enablers of the continued enslavement of our people. As Pan-Africanists we need to come together as never before to defend this brother and the Libyan Al Fateh revolution.
Sadly, the African Union has become another impotent international body with a neo-colonial mindset, due to the fact that unfortunately, a number of member states are still imperialist facilitators. The Pan-Africanist scholar, Chinweizu, calls these facilitaors of imperialism “leaders in Africa,” because, as he points out, they are not “African leaders.”
Despite this, the African Union, under the guidance of progressive members, have managed to take a principled stand on Libya. In a statement issued by the AU Peace and Security Council, headed by Zimbabwe, they unanimously opposed any foreign military intervention and recognised the unity and territorial sovereignty of the North African State of Libya. The statement went on to call for “an urgent African action for the immediate cessation of all hostilities.”
How good and how pleasant it would be, before God and man... Muammar Qaddafi has a vision for Africa - a United States of Africa - with one government, one army and one currency. Of course, if this were to happen, it would shift the balance of power globally. The well documented fact is that if Africa stopped the flow of all African resources and raw materials to the western nations for just one week – the United States and Europe would grind to a halt – they are that dependent on Africa and are therefore determined to maintain their ability to control events on the continent.
Control over Africa’s affairs has always been a priority for the imperialist project. As Minister Louis Farrakhan pointed out many years ago at a conference in Libya, “Europe and the US cannot go forward into the new century without unfettered access to the vast natural resources of Africa” and he added that “Qaddafi is one who stands in their way.”
If they cannot maintain control, then at least they must try to maintain Africa's divisions, thereby ensuring it is always in a position of weakness. African unity and true independence is something white supremacy, in all of its manifestations – capitalism, imperialism and neo-colonialism - will oppose with all its might.
When Sarkozy the clown, to quote Saif Qaddafi, made his ridiculous pronouncement recognizing the rag tag conglomerate of reactionaries in Benghazi as the sole legitimate representative of the Libyan people, and Hillarity rushed to meet with the “Libyan opposition,” the sinister imperialist plot began to unfold. Their mission was certainly not to “protect innocent civilians.” They had from the outset, very clearly chosen a side and now, as they bombard the Libyan revolutionary forces we know without any doubt, whose side they are on.
“If they cannot maintain control, then at least they must try to maintain Africa's divisions.”
Their plot further unraveled, when a Dutch helicopter, carrying Dutch marines on some kind of sabotage/espionage mission was captured right inside Libyan territory. The Dutch government finally acknowledged that its warship, the Tromp, was offshore in the sea off Sirte and the captured helicopter had lifted-off from there. If the rebellion in Benghazi was, as the media has reported, “a spontaneous rebellion, like others in the region,” then the Dutch were surprisingly well prepared. Actually, it would have been impossible for them to arrive so swiftly at the scene, and so they had to have had prior knowledge of what was taking place. It is now crystal clear that this rebellion in Benghazi was an orchestrated attempt, supported by foreign sources, to use the events taking place across North Africa as a cover for the overthrow of the Libyan revolution.
And then there was William Hague’s brazen landing of the British SAS personnel inside Libyan territory to make contact with the al Qaeda inspired rebels. Of course it is no surprise that the British and al Qaeda are on the same side – as noted above they have been collaborating to destroy Libya for a very long time. Reactionaries inevitably end up dovetailing, and a partnership with the imperialists is after all where al Qaeda had its beginnings: as a US instrument in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. George Bush Senior had close ties with the Taliban, and Ronald Reagan poured millions of dollars into assisting the Jihadists in Afghanistan, the forerunners of al Qaeda, which means 'the base', and refers to a data base of Mujahideen from numerous countries, compiled with the help of the CIA.
Many Battlefronts
In addition to the battle between “true religion and false religion” to paraphrase the Muslim revolutionary thinker, Ali Shariati, there is another major battlefront in Libya. It is the battle between Black Africans and those fair skinned 'Arab settlers', who embrace a “separatist” stance, refusing to acknowledge their African heritage, and who want little to do with the Pan-African project although they are on the African continent. As noted above, these 'Arabs' look upon black people with utter contempt and disdain. They definitely do not share Qaddafi's vision of a united Africa and resent the resources of Libya being used to assist projects towards this end throughout the continent.
It has been well documented that the Libyan rebels are committing crimes against humanity. There have been “African hunts” in rebel held territory. Black workers, students and refugees have been detained, raped and executed - some of them were led into the desert and stabbed to death. Even Black Libyans have been targeted, and many of them have been abducted by armed rebels and are being held in secret locations. These are the forces that the imperialists are racing to support. There has been a deafening silence from the so-called international community and western media regarding these well documented “African Hunts” and the massacre of Black Africans by the rebels.
“Black workers, students and refugees have been detained, raped and executed.”
From Washington, France and London, they continue their attempts to demonise Muammar Qaddafi with their lies. But the truth is that he is a revolutionary and a freedom fighter, who has assisted almost every struggle for liberation over the past three decades, and worked tirelessly, day and night, to facilitate African advancement and unification. At the same time, the revolution he has led, has taken Libya from the status of being the poorest country in the world to a country that has attained the highest standard of living in Africa. The “weapons of mass deception” assembled by the Crusaders can never succeed in portraying him as a ruthless dictator - an enemy of humanity? Let us heed the warning of the great revolutionary, Al Hajj Malik Al Shabazz, better known as Malcolm X: “The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power because they control the minds of the masses.”
As I write this article, Qaddafi is addressing the world. He is defiant, preparing Libyans for a long war and assuring the crusaders that they will never get their hands on Libya and its resources. Meanwhile, the coalition of Crusaders and their Arab enablers are starting to show some signs of strain.
I am reminded of Qaddafi's words in 1986, when Reagan bombed his residence,
“They may hit us with long range missiles and aircrafts – this is expected, but they will never stay. This land is too hot for their feet.”
Gerald A. Perreira has lived in Libya for many years. He served in the Green March, an international battalion for the defense of the Libyan revolution and was an executive member of the World Mathaba based in Tripoli.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Already an estimated 16,000 African freedom fighters (not mercenaries as the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera would have us believe) have poured into Libya from the Congo, Guinea, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Niger, Chad, Mauritania, Southern Sudan, Kenya, Ethiopia and Burkina Faso to fight to the death for the Libyan revolution and Brother Muammar Al Qaddafi.
Melanin King, what you have here is interesting. Can you provide independent documentation of the movement of African allies to help Ghadaffi? How are these allies escaping attack by the Western aerial armada, both planes and unmanned robot aircraft?
The claims by Qaddafi and the Libyan revolutionary forces that the rebels in Benghazi are inspired by al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and the serious threat this poses, not only to Libya but to the entire region, are once again falling on deaf ears, just as David Shayler said they did back in the mid 90s. Why? Because once again, British intelligence forces..
Also interesting, If true, Ghadaffi is actually helping the West by suppressing Al Qaeda, yet in this war, "the West" is destroying an opponent of one of its supposed most deadly enemies- Al Qaeda. This raises legitimate questions as to the real motives in the aerial assaults against the Libyan leader. Are the British looking for payback for the Lockerbee bombing? Do you have any other independent documentation to support Ghaaffi's claim to be opposing Al Qaeda?
And what about the end game if the rebels fold? If the rebels prove anemic and too weak to mount serious opposition, what is the end game? Will the West in essence prop up a weak opposition to avoid embarrassment and save face? It is said that there is "no UN authorization" to kill Ghadaffi, but if there is weak rebel staying power, doesnt it create every incentive for the West to try to kill Ghadaffi- the main source of opposition - in order to save face from a long stalemate? Is the so called "lack of authorization" something bogus for public consumption?
What about the so-called "handover" of the US to NATO when the bulk of the aerial forces are American and key commanders are American officers? Is this just window dressing by the Obama admin to deflect scrutiny of his policies? Is it a real handover? Does it make any difference?
How do other readers see potential ending scenarios? Won't the Libyan people be better served by an end to the fighting? How can this be achieved Exiled?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Arab states participation is instrumental, and directly lead to the current military action. The US would not have agreed to the resolution without AL approval of NFZ, and without Arab military participation, and without Arab states paying some of the costs. Clinton made this clear before the US agreed to the draft resolution.
But here's the caveat: The Arab League wouldn't have agreed to the resolution either, if the US-Europeans insisted that the goal was "regime change". The US and its European cronies knew this, which is why they didn't insist on it before the passing of the resolution. If the US and Europeans had taken unilateral action without a UN rubber-stamp, it would have been another "illegal" intervention.
Therefore, there is a paradox in Arab participation and those of US-European participation.
So now, the US-Europeans claim that they have "legitimacy" for their military actions, but if they specifically target Gaddafi, they will be in violation of this "legitimacy".
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^Motha fuka aka AssExplorer, go fuuk your motha! Go suck on your mother's red stinky vagina!
Lion!
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Arab states participation is instrumental, and directly lead to the current military action. The US would not have agreed to the resolution without AL approval of NFZ, and without Arab military participation, and without Arab states paying some of the costs. Clinton made this clear before the US agreed to the draft resolution.
But here's the caveat: The Arab League wouldn't have agreed to the resolution either, if the US-Europeans insisted that the goal was "regime change". The US and its European cronies knew this, which is why they didn't insist on it before the passing of the resolution. If the US and Europeans had taken unilateral action without a UN rubber-stamp, it would have been another "illegal" intervention.
Therefore, there is a paradox in Arab participation and those of US-European participation.
So now, the US-Europeans claim that they have "legitimacy" for their military actions, but if they specifically target Gaddafi, they will be in violation of this "legitimacy".
From what I see the West has every reason to kill Ghadaffi. It would allow them a face saving exit even if the rebels fold. The only reason Moammar is alive now is because he has been smart enough to go into concealment. The longer he is alive the more the West and the Arab League are embarassed. His best bet, if he wants to stay in power, is to announce a series of reforms, and negotiate a mixed government with more genuine popular representation and clean up some of the more oppressive aspects of his regime. Even in this however, he needs to keep fighting relentlessly. He cannot afford a large rebel enclave set up in Libya covered by Western airpower. He has to keep pressing the rebels, isolating them in small pockets. This improves his chances in any end game negotiations.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Already an estimated 16,000 African freedom fighters (not mercenaries as the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera would have us believe) have poured into Libya from the Congo, Guinea, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Niger, Chad, Mauritania, Southern Sudan, Kenya, Ethiopia and Burkina Faso to fight to the death for the Libyan revolution and Brother Muammar Al Qaddafi.
The author forgot to mention Syrians, Ukrainians, Serbians and Algerians. “Freedom Fighters” that fight for money. Classic.
The claims by Qaddafi and the Libyan revolutionary forces that the rebels in Benghazi are inspired by al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)
The author forgot to mention that Qadaffi threatened to join al-Qaeda.
Note: If NY Times asks you to Login, simply cut and paste: Qaddafi Forces Pull Back as Rebels Retake Ajdabiya to Google and click on the article there it will by-pass Login.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Arab states participation is instrumental, and directly lead to the current military action. The US would not have agreed to the resolution without AL approval of NFZ, and without Arab military participation, and without Arab states paying some of the costs. Clinton made this clear before the US agreed to the draft resolution.
But here's the caveat: The Arab League wouldn't have agreed to the resolution either, if the US-Europeans insisted that the goal was "regime change". The US and its European cronies knew this, which is why they didn't insist on it before the passing of the resolution. If the US and Europeans had taken unilateral action without a UN rubber-stamp, it would have been another "illegal" intervention.
Therefore, there is a paradox in Arab participation and those of US-European participation.
So now, the US-Europeans claim that they have "legitimacy" for their military actions, but if they specifically target Gaddafi, they will be in violation of this "legitimacy".
The international community is buzzing him, they could kill him if they wanted to, but they know too well that doing so will appear like an “assassination” and may very hinder future cooperation with the Arab League. Killing him would make them lose “legitimacy” with the Arab League. As long as he is in a rat-hole somewhere he should be fine, and will probably get apprehended phyically resembling a Bum, e.g. Saddam.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^Dubious. "Buzzing" Moammar means nothing. They have been "buzzing" him from Day 1 using unmanned drones and regular planes. They have every incentive to kill him because it would make life easier for them. They have not killed him because they have not been able to as yet. It is naive to think that if they had a clear shot at Moammar that they would not take it. But even if they did have a clear shot and deferred, it is only temporary because it was too early in the war- they are only awaiting a "decent interval" - to allow the war to go on a bit, to lesssen the impact of perceived "assasinations."
No "legitimacy" would be lost with the Arab league if Moammar died. In fact they would like it because Moammar has been a thorn in their sides for decades. The AL will provide diplomatic "cover" in the event of his death, just as they provided "cover" for the Western attack. Sure there might be a few boilerplate expressions of "regret" for the consumption of the gullible, but every day Moammar fights on is an embarrassment for them. Any so-called "assassination" would blow over in a day or two as a compliant media fills the airwaves with celebrating rebels and a new "caretaker" regime gets the press.
Moammar needs to keep fighting if he wants to stay in business. "The West" knows it will be greatly embarrassed if the rebels collapse. It is pulling out all the stops to prevent that while feeding the press disinformation or incomplete information to make the situation less dire for them that it could turn out to be. The West is actually desperate to keep the rebels in business - hence predictably vague reports that they are "pondering" arming the rebels. What a bunch of malarkey. They have ALREADY armed the rebels with the vast number of Ak-47s and other small arms readily available, not to mention allowing them full access to captured regime stocks, not to mention providing free flying artillery, and Special Forces Units on the ground to coordinate detailed airstrikes.
It is a full fledged civil war with Obama openly backing one side of the civil war. The so called "mission" for "protection" of civilians is plain and simple bullshiit. Obama knows he will look stupid if the rebels falter. he will have dragged the US into someone else's civil war with no end in sight. It has nothing to do now with so called "protection." It is about saving face.
The fall of Ajdabiya is a setback for Moammar, but hardly fatal. He needs to keep pressing the rebels regardless. This means having his forces assume civilian guise and infiltrate into the city to conduct attacks, including placement of mines and IEDs. They need to fight close to the rebels to stymie Western attempts to set up privileged enclaves. He should contest every city even if his main force formations have to pull back en masse. Break them down into smaller units, infiltrate forward in civilian guise and keep fighting, house by house, block by block. Or use irregular militia while reserving the main forces for bigger battles. But in any event, fight vigorously. Moammar's forces need not retake Adijaba, they only need to make it contested, chaotic and unsafe, blending his fighters in with civilian structures and populations to neutralize all that vaunted airpower.
The veiled, barely mentioned press reports bout attacks against "other" regime targets and "command and control" targets shows that the West is going all out to destroy him. The media made much of obsolete aircraft being destroyed by the French, as if it were some kind of big deal. That is what the spinmasters would have people focus attention on. The real battle however is detailed airstrikes against troop and mechanized concentrations, and against any government related facilities including radio and TV stations. They are going after him all out, despite disinformation fed the press, to obscure that fact.
Dispersal and hugging tactics can defeat airpower, particularly in urban areas, as long as morale and manpower holds up. Another gambit some have suggested is that Moammar up the ante by preparing demolition charges to destroy the oil facilities, rendering them useless to "the West" and embarrassing it further. At this point he has nothing to lose since the West is going all out against him some argue. At the same time, a package of reforms politically will keep diplomacy open.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Good summary.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Good summary.
SURE COK SUUKR, GOOD SUMMARY
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No, It is this:
fagcoon, I intend to make millions of slave whips out of da .. blah... blah... coily fucktentacles...
Prominent U.S. pundits are expressing deep skepticism about the U.S. intervention in Libya. CNN Globalspin has compiled some of the frequently-made arguments [against]... Skeptics of the intervention are asking: Why this? To protect what interests? At what cost? For whom? And what next?
1. Why this?
Ezra Klein thinks there are better things to do with our money:
“The easy response to this is to ask how I can be so diffident in the face of slaughter. But consider Obama’s remarks. “Left unchecked,” he said, “we have every reason to believe that Gaddafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die.” Every year, one million people die from malaria. About three million children die, either directly or indirectly, due to hunger. There is much we could due to help the world if we were willing. The question that needs to be asked is: Why this?”
2. What are our interests in Libya?
Richard Haas argues that the U.S. doesn’t have any, anyway:
"…U.S. interests are decidedly less than vital. Libya accounts for only 2 percent of world oil production. The scale of the humanitarian crisis is not unique; indeed, this is not strictly speaking a humanitarian intervention. It is a decision to participate in Libya's civil war.”
Leslie H. Gelb agrees:
“No foreign states have vital interests at stake in Libya. Events in this rather odd and isolated land have little bearing on the rest of the tumultuous Mideast region. Also not to be dismissed, there are far, far worse humanitarian horrors elsewhere. Yet, U.S. neoconservatives and liberal humanitarian interventionists have trapped another U.S. president into acting as if the opposite were true.”
3. At what cost?
Jim Manzi contends that we cannot afford this:
"I understand the humanitarian impulse to help the underdog, but we have finite resources, and cannot hold ourselves responsible for the political freedom of every human being on Earth. As many others have said, the obvious problem with this action is that we must set the pretty gauzy-sounding benefits of influencing public opinion in the Middle East, avenging ourselves for the Pan Am bombing, possibly improving the lives of people in Libya and so forth, against the many ways that this could plausibly turn into a much more expensive proposition than is currently anticipated – and not only in terms of money."
Tom Friedman agrees:
"…sadly, we can’t afford it. We have got to get to work on our own country. If the president is ready to take some big, hard, urgent, decisions, shouldn’t they be first about nation-building in America, not in Libya?"
4. Who are we helping?
Friedman further holds that we don’t know who we are helping:
"...we should be doubly cautious of intervening in places that could fall apart in our hands, a là Iraq, especially when we do not know, a là Libya, who the opposition groups really are — democracy movements led by tribes or tribes exploiting the language of democracy?"
5. What happens next?
James Fallows says that the American military rarely asks this essential question:
"Count me among those very skeptical of how this commitment was made and where it might lead….The most predictable failure in modern American military policy has been the reluctance to ask, And what happens then? We invade Iraq to push Saddam Hussein from power. Good. What happens then? Obama increases our commitment in Afghanistan and says that "success" depends on the formation of a legitimate, honest Afghan government on a certain timetable. The deadline passes. What happens then?"
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, Is this the first time since the fall of the white Apartheid government in SA that Western(South Africa under Apartheid and now is still Western) that Western(whites) planes have bombed African territory?
If so then the fraudulent and weak-minded and Zionist controlled Obama has the very dubious distinction of being the first U.S. president to bomb an African nations. And the negro fools in Africa and the U.S. were celebrating when the Jews fronted their man.
They knew that negroes are weak-minded and impervious to clear and level-headed thinking so when South Africa, Nigeria were presented with the case[ forget that Kleptocracy, Gabon. What is the confounded place good for except to serve as a place of sin and infamy for whites in Gabon, always in holiday mode]the fools forgot to read the fine print as India, Brazil and Germany did--and were just bowled over by the loud hysterics of half-pale face overseer for BHO, Susan Rice.
The illiterate[that's true, check it out. There is some question as to whether he ever went to school] Jacob Zuma msut have known that Gaddafi poured money and resources into the ANC when it was battling white power[ U.S., Israel, France, Britain, etc.] during the Apartheid days. Jacob Zuma must have known[ not read] that Mandela was arrested and jailed courtesy the CIA. Yet the jackass was easily rolled and played just by a simple phone call from Obama.
That's what I am saying, the whites who pushed BHO into the presidency must have known that negroes are incredibly weak on the sentimental front.
And Nigeria? I said before. Just big for nothing! I mean, what else you can say?
And what are they saying about the racism of the fascist Benghazi mobs? Nothing! Have they protested in a serious way? No!
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: the whites who pushed BHO into the presidency must have known that negroes are incredibly weak on the sentimental front.
Christian Negroes. Whites/Jews still piss themselves when they hear N.O.I. or Farrakhan's name.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
They knew that negroes are weak-minded and impervious to clear and level-headed thinking
Does this include yourself? If not, then I think the generalization can be done away with, and focused on the target subjects.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Zarahan, Is this the first time since the fall of the white Apartheid government in SA that Western(South Africa under Apartheid and now is still Western) that Western(whites) planes have bombed African territory?
...if one discounts the air support that accompanied the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in recent times, and the bombing of a Sudanese pharmaceutical plant [this one done from a ship].
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
"Today we are all Qadaffi - down, down, Sarkozy. Down, down, USA" Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Not surprising, the analogy is clear. The British supported terrorist KLA to undermine Milosevic. They are using the same template today against Qadaffi...oh sorry, in this case they are merely helping Muslim freedom fighters.
There is a book on the Milosevic trials that shows how much of a farce the whole thing was, cant remember the name.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Qadaffi thugs forcefully snatch a woman who claimed she was raped by Libyan soldiers. There was a brawl with western journalist attempting to defend her.
Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".
Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".
His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".
Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.
US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996.
------------------------------------------------------------- If the Telegraph story is true, why is 'the West' attempting to destroy someone who is at odds with 'the West's' great enemy, Al Qaeda? Ghadaffi has stated that al Queda operatives are among the rebels,and this British news story confirms this. Again, if the British news story is true, why is America helping rebels that include Al Qaeda among its ranks?
The president of Chat in the article states that Al Qaeda operatives have even been able to seize some of the abandoned or looted Ghadaffi regime's arms, including SAM missiles. If true, those missiles could well be next seen headed towards civilian aircraft filled with peace loving Westerners.
Isn't the US SUPPOSED to be fighting Al Qaeda ruthlessly wherever and whenever it is found? And wouldnt American air assets be more profitably emoloyed against Taliban in Afghanistan rather than helping one side fight an internal civil war in Libya? Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The west needs al qaeda like batman needs the joker and god needs the devil.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Qadaffi thugs forcefully snatch a woman who claimed she was raped by Libyan soldiers. There was a brawl with western journalist attempting to defend her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV-qG3BQkaw
"Her face was heavily bruised."
LOL oh really, didn't look that way to me.
"So were her legs. She displayed blood on her right inner thigh."
...proof beyond doubt she was raped two days ago... Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The west needs al qaeda like batman needs the joker and god needs the devil.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Qadaffi thugs forcefully snatch a woman who claimed she was raped by Libyan soldiers. There was a brawl with western journalist attempting to defend her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV-qG3BQkaw
"Her face was heavily bruised."
LOL oh really, didn't look that way to me.
"So were her legs. She displayed blood on her right inner thigh."
...proof beyond doubt she was raped two days ago...
Snatching a woman from a hotel and shoving her into a car, and driving off may be be acceptable from where you come from. This is however unacceptable and is a human rights violation.
You need to see “blood” and “bruises” to verify a woman is raped. You are indeed very ignorant, and obviously in more than one topic. Even if her claims were false, snatching a woman from a hotel and shoving her into a car is a violation of human rights. Something you obviously failed to notice.
Being subjected to your idiocy is a violation of my human rights. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
The Explorer,
Come on, you must know by now that the epithet "negroes" is used for effect to describe really "off the wall" behaviour of Africans who just do very negative things. There must be a word to describe those kinds of people.
"Negro" is a disgusting word made up by whites to describe Africans so it could be reserved for certain kinds of people.
The East Asians use the word "banana" when necessary but "negro", on account of its despicable history in the English language has more effect. "Negroid", the "n" word, etc. all fall in the same category.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Shame to all the people who support the military strikes against Libya, you should bury your stupid heads in the sand!!!!!!!!!
Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have AL-QAEDA links
By Praveen Swami, Nick Squires and Duncan Gardham 5:00PM GMT 25 Mar 2011
Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".
Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".
His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".
Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.
US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996.
Even though the LIFG is not part of the al-Qaeda organisation, the United States military's West Point academy has said the two share an "increasingly co-operative relationship". In 2007, documents captured by allied forces from the town of Sinjar, showed LIFG emmbers made up the second-largest cohort of foreign fighters in Iraq, after Saudi Arabia.
Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.
British Islamists have also backed the rebellion, with the former head of the banned al-Muhajiroun proclaiming that the call for "Islam, the Shariah and jihad from Libya" had "shaken the enemies of Islam and the Muslims more than the tsunami that Allah sent against their friends, the Japanese".
Jihadis who fought U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan now enjoy American support in Libya
By: Byron York 03/26/11 11:12 AM
Evidence is emerging that United States forces are waging war in Libya on behalf of rebels whose ranks include jihadis who fought against the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Britain's Daily Telegraph reports that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, a leader of U.S.-supported rebel forces in the fighting around Adjabiya, went to Afghanistan in 2002 to fight against the "foreign invasion" -- that is, U.S. troops who invaded Afghanistan in retaliation for the September 11 attacks. The Telegraph says al-Hasidi told an Italian newspaper, Il Sole 24 Ore, that he was captured in 2002 in Peshawar, Pakistan. "He was later handed over to the U.S., and then held in Libya before being released in 2008," the Telegraph reports. Al-Hasidi also told the Italian paper he recruited about 25 Libyan men to fight against U.S. forces in Iraq.
Al-Hasidi's story is consistent with evidence presented in a 2007 report published by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point. That report, by professors Joseph Felter and Brian Fishman, examined records of an al Qaeda-affiliated organization found after an October 2007 raid near Sinjar, Iraq. The records contained biographical information about nearly 700 foreign terrorists who came to Iraq to fight against the United States between August 2006 and August 2007.
Felter and Fishman found that the largest portion of foreign fighters, about 41 percent, came to Iraq from Saudi Arabia. The second-largest source of foreign fighters, at nearly 19 percent, was Libya. "Libya contributed far more fighters per capita than any other nationality in the Sinjar records, including Saudi Arabia," the authors conclude. Since previous studies had indicated far fewer Libyan fighters in Iraq, the authors suggest there may have been a "surge" of Libyans into Iraq in the spring and summer of 2007. "The apparent surge in Libyan recruits traveling to Iraq may be linked to the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group's [LIFG] increasingly cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, which culminated in the LIFG official joining al Qaeda on November 3, 2007," the report say.
The Telegraph, citing U.S. and British government sources, reports that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi was a member of the LIFG.
The Combating Terrorism Center reports says that Darnah, Libya -- al-Hasidi's hometown-- supplied more foreign fighters to Iraq than any other city, including Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, a city far larger than Darnah. Benghazi, Libya, now a rebel stronghold, was also a major source of Libyan fighters traveling to Iraq. "Both Darnah and Benghazi have long been associated with Islamic militancy in Libya, in particular for an uprising by Islamist organizations in the mid-1990s," the authors report. "The Libyan government blamed the uprising on 'infiltrators from the Sudan and Egypt' and one group -- the Libyan Fighting Group -- claimed to have Afghan veterans in its ranks. The Libyan uprisings became extraordinarily violent. [Libyan strongman Moammar] Gadhafi used helicopter gunships in Benghazi, cut telephone, electricity, and water supplies to Darnah and famously claimed that the militants "deserve to die without trial, like dogs." In the current fighting, Gadhafi has said that the rebels fighting against him are affiliated with al Qaeda, but his claims have found little acceptance.
There is no doubt that the rebels associated with the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group are violent extremists. The Combating Terrorism Center Report found that the Libyans, along with Moroccans, were more likely than others to become suicide bombers once they were in Iraq. The Sinjar records, plus political developments in the 2007 time period, "suggest that Libyan factions (primarily the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group) are increasingly important in al Qaeda," the report says.
Now, it is not clear what portion of the Libyan rebels, who enjoy the backing and assistance of the United States military, have been associated with al Qaeda and attacks on the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. That's one reason critics of the Libya war say the U.S.-led coalition doesn't really know who it's fighting for. But we may learn more in the future, especially if the rebels prevail and some former jihadis find themselves running Libya, courtesy of the United States.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Qadaffi thugs forcefully snatch a woman who claimed she was raped by Libyan soldiers. There was a brawl with western journalist attempting to defend her.
Hilarious!!! I hope you don't believe this. So she claims to be gangraped and runs straight to the hotel where all the foreign journalists reside. Yeah what a story.... NOT!! Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] The Explorer,
Come on, you must know by now that the epithet "negroes" is used for effect to describe really "off the wall" behaviour of Africans who just do very negative things. There must be a word to describe those kinds of people.
"Negro" is a disgusting word made up by whites to describe Africans so it could be reserved for certain kinds of people.
The East Asians use the word "banana" when necessary but "negro", on account of its despicable history in the English language has more effect. "Negroid", the "n" word, etc. all fall in the same category.
Gotcha, but I thought it was necessary to clear the air, lest some in the dark about these terms may read them differently. After all, this is an international forum, though I understand a lot of individuals from the State, followed by those from Europe, frequent this site.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
If the Telegraph story is true, why is 'the West' attempting to destroy someone who is at odds with 'the West's' great enemy, Al Qaeda? Ghadaffi has stated that al Queda operatives are among the rebels,and this British news story confirms this. Again, if the British news story is true, why is America helping rebels that include Al Qaeda among its ranks?
The US-Europeans are taking the "let's take the opponents of our enemy's side now, and then sort out the details later" approach as they had done in previous occasions. We know where that lands them; how does one suppose al Qaeda and the Taliban came into being in the first place? In an "earlier war", the Mujahideen were used against the Soviets in Afghanistan; elements of the al Qaeda and the Taliban came from this very movement.
In the "new war", the Taliban and the al Qaeda were shoved aside and became THE enemy, and the "northern alliance" took their place. At the end of the early phase of that war, and onto the "occupation" phase, the Taliban were brought back in, to pacify the relentless insurgency. In Iraq, Shiite opposition groups became the recipients of US-European support, in contrast to their earlier policy of supporting the Sunny minority. Again, during the "occupation" phase of the conflict, the US and Europeans found out that there own new lackey/puppet is very cordial to the Iranians, US's next big enemy in the region, who are in the main, Shiites as well.
Fast forward to the present: now, we have the US and Europeans helping an opposition group they hardly know enough about. Gaddafi's opposition groups comprise different factions, including recently defected Gaddafi administration officials! So, the US and Europeans are going to help this opposition group, and then try to sort out the details of their identities at a later time, by which time, elements of al Qaeda will have been armed, or at least have been emboldened by the US-European military support, to set up a new presence in Libya that they did not enjoy under Gaddafi's watch. When this happens, they will undoubtedly become the next thorn, amongst other elements, in the side of the US-Europeans in any military chaos that ensues in Libya.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
EXPLORER HAVE YOU DONE WITH FUCHING YOUR MOTHA'S STINKY VAGINAS???
GO FUCH YOUR MOTHER, GO FUCH YOUR MOTHER, GET LOST GO FUCH YOUR LITTLE SISTER THAT SPEAKS AMHARIC WHEN SHE WETS HER PUSSY....
quote:posted 26 March, 2011 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Ass Explorer Let's "decorate" this dull bland looking thread...with more colorful photos...
Amid the chaos of the fighting, the rebels have set up a prison camp for Gaddafi loyalist fighters. Babak Dehghanpisheh reports on the abuse accusations
In the wave of political change in the Arab world, Libya clearly stands apart. Unlike his counterparts in Egypt or Bahrain, Muammar Gaddafi’s power does not seem to be slipping out of his hands, and there’s a reason for it.
Gaddafi’s resilience looks really strange, when you start considering it. His domestic opposition is armed with machine guns, not stones and Molotov cocktails. Even after a period of thaw, his international reputation is still on a par with Kim Jong-il – with all the airliner bombings, killing of police officers in St. James’ Square and a WMD program in his bag. Now he even has an international military force in his backyard, which without doubt could take control of Libya in a matter of days, if such a decision was made.
With such pressure, any dictator would have been dethroned – if not by his own will, then with the friendly help of cautious subordinates. Yet that’s exactly what has not happened. Moreover, noticeably missing in reports from the country are the expected mass defection of government officials, troops and security forces to the opposition, and those voiced often turn out to be false, like that of Gaddafi’s daughter Ayesha allegedly attempting to flee to Malta.
The plain fact is that Colonel Gaddafi has the support of both the public and his own government. This certainly doesn’t make him “the good guy” in the story, but it casts a huge shadow on the whole “oppressed people gather to oust the hated dictator” scenario.
One has to remember that Libyan society is traditional and fundamentally fractionalized. Being in power in Libya is a balancing act between age-long blood feuds, traditions that prevail over rational thinking, the vital necessity to at least appear too strong to be defied, and a bunch of sons who are not eager to wait long before replacing you. All this is aggravated by the “oil pie” (of which everyone wants a bigger slice) and a small army of youths who are unlikely to find a job in a country which mostly consists of desert.
Gaddafi’s strategy involves hefty social benefits, mass education and a great degree of local self-governance within communities (his latest step to hand out arms to all civilians is actually a development of the ongoing situation, in which a major part of the army is in essence a well-armed militia). His supporters apparently believe that those benefits outweigh drawbacks like the public execution of political opponents or funding of international terrorism.
The bad thing about the position of a dictator is that as soon as you seem to have lost your grip, someone will try and replace you. And this is what happened in Libya in February. The stronghold of rebels is the region of Cyrenaica, dominated by the conservative religious order Senussi, with strong ties to Libyan Bedouins. They have never been fans of Gaddafi, with is natural once you take into account that he overthrew King Idris, who was also a hereditary leader of Senussi and emir of Cyrenaica. But for 40 years he managed to hold them in check through violence, bribes and intrigues.
Assuming that those people’s only desire is to live in a democratic state with an elected president would be highly optimistic. Assuming that they want a bigger share of the oil which happens to be in their territory is much more realistic. Believing that they’ll keep free schools and hospitals on the list of their priorities – well, that’s wishful thinking. In fact, their inability to organize themselves and the consequent general retreat from Gaddafi’s loyal troops is a good indication of what they would do if they are in power.
The biggest mystery is why on earth the international community would send a fleet to Libya to support one faction in an ordinary civil war. Is it so Sarkozy can score political points for being a tough guy ahead of the presidential election? Is it so Berlusconi can draw media attention away from his sex scandal? Is it so Obama can keep up with the tradition that each US president start a war? Judging from how slow the action is unfolding there, the people in charge don’t seem to have the answer themselves.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
If the Telegraph story is true, why is 'the West' attempting to destroy someone who is at odds with 'the West's' great enemy, Al Qaeda? Ghadaffi has stated that al Queda operatives are among the rebels,and this British news story confirms this. Again, if the British news story is true, why is America helping rebels that include Al Qaeda among its ranks?
The US-Europeans are taking the "let's take the opponents of our enemy's side now, and then sort out the details later" approach as they had done in previous occasions. We know where that lands them; how does one suppose al Qaeda and the Taliban came into being in the first place? In an "earlier war", the Mujahideen were used against the Soviets in Afghanistan; elements of the al Qaeda and the Taliban came from this very movement.
In the "new war", the Taliban and the al Qaeda were shoved aside and became THE enemy, and the "northern alliance" took their place. At the end of the early phase of that war, and onto the "occupation" phase, the Taliban were brought back in, to pacify the relentless insurgency. In Iraq, Shiite opposition groups became the recipients of US-European support, in contrast to their earlier policy of supporting the Sunny minority. Again, during the "occupation" phase of the conflict, the US and Europeans found out that there own new lackey/puppet is very cordial to the Iranians, US's next big enemy in the region, who are in the main, Shiites as well.
Fast forward to the present: now, we have the US and Europeans helping an opposition group they hardly know enough about. Gaddafi's opposition groups comprise different factions, including recently defected Gaddafi administration officials! So, the US and Europeans are going to help this opposition group, and then try to sort out the details of their identities at a later time, by which time, elements of al Qaeda will have been armed, or at least have been emboldened by the US-European military support, to set up a new presence in Libya that they did not enjoy under Gaddafi's watch. When this happens, they will undoubtedly become the next thorn, amongst other elements, in the side of the US-Europeans in any military chaos that ensues in Libya.
This is so true. Sad but true. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Exiiled, it's a valiant effort but personally I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to debate with the terminally retarded. Some people just see what they want to see, until that very thing turns around and bites them on the ass.
So far we've had "there are no mercenaries" "civilians aren't being killed" "there are no mass graves" "there are no airstrikes". Now as the news permeates a few thick heads to the point that this is irrefutable now, now we have "well it isn't our war" "why is the west getting involved?" "oil oil oil" "imperialism imperialism". Some people just can't accept that they were wrong in the first place and just clutch at any old straw to make their point. And some haven't got the foggiest what their talking about, just jump on the bandwagon and post a few daily mail cut and pastes
If what the west was doing was wrong, Libyans from all over the country wouldn't be saying thank you - please carry on. If it was a western oil grab other Arab nations wouldn't be committing to it. If you don't give a $hit about the people getting killed and object to your governments committing funds to saving them, at least have the balls to say so. Stop with the holier than thou crap. You're not fooling anyone.
And that's all I have to say about that. Right, in a few hours it'll be one week since I said "I give Gaddafi a week". I'm off to eat my hat Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Just got to add, I saw a post on the BBC website earlier:
"1641: Libyan state TV is also reporting that "hundreds of thousands demonstrated in London yesterday to say we are with you against this war and we oppose the conspiracy hatched against Libya", according to BBC Monitoring. To back its claim with "facts", it showed pictures of protesters carrying green flags and chanting pro-Gaddafi slogans near the Palace of Westminster.
Can anyone outside the UK (and Libya) confirm whether this is true or not, please?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Libyan uprising is not “people toppling dictator”
Written by Mizoram Express World Mar 27, 2011
In the wave of political change in the Arab world, Libya clearly stands apart. Unlike his counterparts in Egypt or Bahrain, Muammar Gaddafi’s power does not seem to be slipping out of his hands, and there’s a reason for it.
Gaddafi’s resilience looks really strange, when you start considering it. His domestic opposition is armed with machine guns, not stones and Molotov cocktails. Even after a period of thaw, his international reputation is still on a par with Kim Jong-il – with all the airliner bombings, killing of police officers in St. James’ Square and a WMD program in his bag. Now he even has an international military force in his backyard, which without doubt could take control of Libya in a matter of days, if such a decision was made.
With such pressure, any dictator would have been dethroned – if not by his own will, then with the friendly help of cautious subordinates. Yet that’s exactly what has not happened. Moreover, noticeably missing in reports from the country are the expected mass defection of government officials, troops and security forces to the opposition, and those voiced often turn out to be false, like that of Gaddafi’s daughter Ayesha allegedly attempting to flee to Malta.
The plain fact is that Colonel Gaddafi has the support of both the public and his own government. This certainly doesn’t make him “the good guy” in the story, but it casts a huge shadow on the whole “oppressed people gather to oust the hated dictator” scenario.
One has to remember that Libyan society is traditional and fundamentally fractionalized. Being in power in Libya is a balancing act between age-long blood feuds, traditions that prevail over rational thinking, the vital necessity to at least appear too strong to be defied, and a bunch of sons who are not eager to wait long before replacing you. All this is aggravated by the “oil pie” (of which everyone wants a bigger slice) and a small army of youths who are unlikely to find a job in a country which mostly consists of desert.
Gaddafi’s strategy involves hefty social benefits, mass education and a great degree of local self-governance within communities (his latest step to hand out arms to all civilians is actually a development of the ongoing situation, in which a major part of the army is in essence a well-armed militia). His supporters apparently believe that those benefits outweigh drawbacks like the public execution of political opponents or funding of international terrorism.
The bad thing about the position of a dictator is that as soon as you seem to have lost your grip, someone will try and replace you. And this is what happened in Libya in February. The stronghold of rebels is the region of Cyrenaica, dominated by the conservative religious order Senussi, with strong ties to Libyan Bedouins. They have never been fans of Gaddafi, with is natural once you take into account that he overthrew King Idris, who was also a hereditary leader of Senussi and emir of Cyrenaica. But for 40 years he managed to hold them in check through violence, bribes and intrigues.
Assuming that those people’s only desire is to live in a democratic state with an elected president would be highly optimistic. Assuming that they want a bigger share of the oil which happens to be in their territory is much more realistic. Believing that they’ll keep free schools and hospitals on the list of their priorities – well, that’s wishful thinking. In fact, their inability to organize themselves and the consequent general retreat from Gaddafi’s loyal troops is a good indication of what they would do if they are in power.
The biggest mystery is why on earth the international community would send a fleet to Libya to support one faction in an ordinary civil war. Is it so Sarkozy can score political points for being a tough guy ahead of the presidential election? Is it so Berlusconi can draw media attention away from his sex scandal? Is it so Obama can keep up with the tradition that each US president start a war? Judging from how slow the action is unfolding there, the people in charge don’t seem to have the answer themselves.
The article you post raises some interesting points. It says:
"The biggest mystery is why on earth the international community would send a fleet to Libya to support one faction in an ordinary civil war. Is it so Sarkozy can score political points for being a tough guy ahead of the presidential election? Is it so Berlusconi can draw media attention away from his sex scandal? Is it so Obama can keep up with the tradition that each US president start a war? Judging from how slow the action is unfolding there, the people in charge don’t seem to have the answer themselves."
Several scenarios explain the "mystery":
(a) One could be the naivete of the Obama Admin and its belief in the goodness of the "international community" and the UN, but also its desire to subordinate American power to those entities- So say various libertarian and conservativers. Urged along by his 3 female advisers- Hilary Clinton, Susan Rice and Samantha Powers, Obama performs on cue, this line of argument holds.
(b) ANother reason could be the creation and manipulation of a "crisis" to divert attention from most serious problems elsewhere and serve as an excuse to maintain high oil prices and perform other financial manipulations down the road. The "Libyan crisis" can be trotted out as an explanation at that future time.
(c) The "crisis" serves as a test run for an evolving neo-colonialist template of control- use of disgruntled Third World rebels to invoke "humanitarian" intervention. Of course, such "intervention" will be highly selective. Arab League fine. One million black dead in the Sudan, yawn.. Such interventions of course have the benefit of bypassing or undercutting local leaders who stand up to neo-coloniaist hegemony. Note the above refers to the manipulation of TW turmoil as part of a template of control, not the age old practice of one nation supporting opposition in an enemy nation.
d) One web site mentions hidden manipulation by the "bankstas" of Babylon, but did not elaborate. What entities make up these "bankstas"? -------------------------------------------------------------------
'A three-month military plan, to be agreed on Sunday, does not call for NATO to intervene in support of the armed rebellion fighting Kadhafi's forces as the alliance will remain impartial in the conflict.
quote- "NATO will always remain impartial. NATO does not take sides. The goal is to stop any potential danger for the population, in line with the UN Security Council resolution," said one diplomat, who asked not to be identified.
What a bunch of nonsense. So lets get this straight. You are sending warplanes to conduct a massive bombing campaign to help one side in a civil war and you are "remaining impartial"? Does anyone really believe this crap?
And more nonsense: the goal is to "stop any potential danger for the population." Uh huh. And this great state of affairs will be achieved by: (a) bombing Ghadaffi's forces and government installations and buildings causing civilian collateral damage, and (b) by said bombing, forcing Gadaffi's regulars to embed themselves deeper within the civilian population and fighting from there.
So according to NATO, its noble "humanitarian" campaign will stop any potential danger for the population" when in fact their attacks increase the potential for even MORE DANGER for ordinary Libyans. Like I say above, is anyone really gullible enough to believe NATO's bullshiit?
And the ultimate howler: - quote:
"NATO does not take sides."
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Could it be that France[courtesy arch-Zionist Bernard Henry Levy] and the U.S. are quietly opposed to Gaddafi's Pan African reach into all parts of Africa. Gaddafi was instrumental in the transition from the OAU to the African Union.
Now Pan Africanism derived from the old Nkrumah paradigm could be a real irritant to the perpetual divide-and-conquer strategies of the West. Obama probably is upset that Africom has not been allowed on African soil. This could be another possibility I think.
In all this note how shabbily the AU is being treated in the ongoing crisis. Jean Ping the Head of the AU has been complaining that the AU has been completely side-lined in all of this. Deliberate? Because after the AU signifies a kind of Pan-Africanism.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan,
I immediately discount A and B above. The very simple and obvious reason is that the U.S. the major imperial power on earth and with a military budget[ mainly to terrorise, kill and bully others] bigger than the rest of the world combined did not want to be eclipsed by France in this bombing move by the dwarf in high heels, Sarkozy.
But let me respond to your comments re Sudan. The thing about Darfur was mainly a Zionist pet project. The Zionists--U.S. based or Israel based--are vehemently opposed to any government that is not under the U.S./Israel heel. Simple as that. The goal was to topple Bashir. That's all. See Mahmood Mamdani's latest book. He wrote a piece a year plus ago in the London Review of Books asking for more balance on Darfur and the Jews flooded the Review with hundreds of letters denouncing Mamdani and the LRB for publishing his piece.
Forget those women who supposedly rolled Obama. They are of little consequence--including the very noisy and hysterical Susan Rice.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Latest update:
Financial Times - Andrew England, Peter Spiegel - 48 minutes ago Libyan rebels recaptured the eastern oil town of Ras Lanuf and advanced farther west on Sunday, reclaiming territory after western air strikes destroyed regime tanks, armoured personnel carriers, rocket launchers and trucks.
Yet according to one "unnamed" NATO diplomat, NATO is remaining "impartial.." What happened to all those early assurances that the mission was only seeking to "protect" people, and would not be "taking sides?" Could it be the "assurances" were all bullshiit?
------------- Originally posted by lamin:
In all this note how shabbily the AU is being treated in the ongoing crisis. Jean Ping the Head of the AU has been complaining that the AU has been completely side-lined in all of this. Deliberate? Because after the AU signifies a kind of Pan-Africanism.
I am skeptical. maybe in the days of Nkrumah the AAU was more PanAfican. The "new" AU seems more a case of a front group- a shell manipulated by the European Union. The manipulation is not as open as in past times. Plenty of brown and black faces will be out front to speak of "diversity." And small bits of cash are doled out to pliant "NGOs" to lend a gloss of popular spontaneity and "authenticity".. Maybe the AU can "hand off" their useless presence to some other shell group..
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Exiiled, it's a valiant effort but personally I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to debate with the terminally retarded. Some people just see what they want to see, until that very thing turns around and bites them on the ass.
So far we've had "there are no mercenaries" "civilians aren't being killed" "there are no mass graves" "there are no airstrikes". Now as the news permeates a few thick heads to the point that this is irrefutable now, now we have "well it isn't our war" "why is the west getting involved?" "oil oil oil" "imperialism imperialism". Some people just can't accept that they were wrong in the first place and just clutch at any old straw to make their point. And some haven't got the foggiest what their talking about, just jump on the bandwagon and post a few daily mail cut and pastes
If what the west was doing was wrong, Libyans from all over the country wouldn't be saying thank you - please carry on. If it was a western oil grab other Arab nations wouldn't be committing to it. If you don't give a $hit about the people getting killed and object to your governments committing funds to saving them, at least have the balls to say so. Stop with the holier than thou crap. You're not fooling anyone.
And that's all I have to say about that. Right, in a few hours it'll be one week since I said "I give Gaddafi a week". I'm off to eat my hat
Oh I agree Monkey. Personally I got a kick out of mercenaries being described as “Freedom Fighters”. Thing is I never knew Black Africans, Serbians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Syrians were so brotherly, all fighting for Qadaffii, in the name of Freedom. It's the brotherhood of Black African and East European Freedom Fighters.
Hunker down, because the ridiculousness will reach new heights when the Arab Revolution moves onward to Algeria
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Only two hours and twenty four minutes to go. Praying for a miracle now... Stray missile perhaps? Hat on slow cook... I'm planning on marrying it up with a nice chianti
Bummer. I hate being wrong. Particularly on this Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Only two hours and twenty four minutes to go. Praying for a miracle now... Stray missile perhaps? Hat on slow cook... I'm planning on marrying it up with a nice chianti
Bummer. I hate being wrong. Particularly on this
Ah don't worry. You still got the ex-dictator of the month contest going for you. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Dammit, it is going to be a close run thing. Wish I'd said a fortnight - damn my impatience.
Oh well, still time. It ain't over til the fat lady sings...
This is very exciting. They are rumors they might bypass sirte, on to Musarta as that's where the fight is now, and then directly onwards to the jugular (Tripoli)). Have you seen the revolutionaries convoy though? It's mainly an army of pick-up trucks. But they have the international community backing them up, and the warthogs(tank-busters) are wreaking havoc on Qadaffi's tanks and armored vehicles. Total annihilation.
So we'll see if they battle in Sirte.
The outcome in Musarata, and the finally the grand finale - Tripoli.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Tripoli is going to be the last stand, by the look of it. All quiet because he's pulled his troops back there, unless they really have all buggered off home.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Libyan Regime Lies About Eman Obedi Exposed:
I -First they said she was – mentally ill
II -Then they claimed she was – drunk
III -Now they are claiming she is a prostitute who got raped at a party.
The only truth out of Qadaffi Regime is acknowledging she was raped. ______________________________________________________________________
Mother of Libyan woman in rape-claim case says she is ‘very proud’ of her daughter
TRIPOLI, LIBYA — The mother of the woman who burst into a Tripoli hotel and claimed she had been raped by militiamen loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi hailed her daughter as a hero Sunday and said she had been offered money and a house by the government if she changed her story.
Aisha Ahmed, contacted by telephone at her home in Tobruk, in the rebel held eastern part of the country, said she was proud of the courage displayed by her daughter, Iman al-Obaidi, whose dramatic outburst Saturday was broadcast around the world.
“I am very happy, very proud,” said Ahmed, describing her daughter as a 26-year-old law student in Tripoli.
A government official in Tripoli who said he had spoken with Obaidi called her a prostitute and said the rape took place when a party went wrong.
Obaidi was catapulted to world fame Saturday when she burst into the breakfast buffet at Tripoli’s Rixos Hotel, where the foreign press corps is staying as guests of Gaddafi's regime.
Disheveled, weeping, bleeding and bruised, she told reporters she had been raped by 15 Gaddafi militiamen after being detained at a checkpoint because she comes from the eastern city of Benghazi, the epicenter of the revolt against the Gaddafi regime. Before she could finish her story, security guards, government minders and wait staff violently overpowered her and hauled her away in an unmarked car.
Hasan Modeer, a rebel activist who was with Obaidi's mother in Tobruk, said a government official had called Ahmed at 3 a.m. Sunday, asking her to convince her daughter to change her story.
“They said they will give her a new house and a lot of money and anything she wanted,” Modeer said, adding that Ahmed had relayed the message to her daughter by phone but that Obaidi had refused.
“She said, ‘I will die rather than change my words,’ ” Modeer said.
But government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said that he had talked to Obaidi by telephone and that it turned out she knew her assailants. He described her as a divorced mother who earned an income “having parties with men” and said the rape occurred after the men she was with tried to force her to drink whiskey and beat her up.
One of them was the son of a high-ranking government official, Ibrahim said, but otherwise there were no political implications to what he called a “criminal” case.
“It is unfortunate she has to make a living in this way,” he said.
Journalists have been pressing Ibrahim to allow them to meet with Obaidi to verify her story. But, he said, her family has so far refused to allow her to do so.
Obaidi’s father, Atiq Saleh al-Obaidi, said no such request had been relayed.
“The only communication we’ve had was when they called us at 3 in the morning” offering money if she recanted, he said.
He also contradicted the government’s claim that his daughter was a divorced mother, saying she was single and has no children.
The incident offered insight into the regime’s treatment of its citizens and the lengths to which it will go to prevent them from speaking out against the government. Journalists who tried to protect Obaidi were punched or knocked to the ground. One government minder pulled a pistol, and a CNN camera was smashed in the melee.
But with multiple news organizations on hand to record the event, video clips quickly found their way onto Facebook and Twitter, turning Obaidi into a symbol of defiance against Gaddafi among activists seeking to oust his regime.
Ahmed said she still has hope her daughter can be saved.
“Inshallah [God willing], I will see her again,” she said. “We will force Gaddafi down. France, Obama, America, please come and save my daughter.”
^ Waste of time talking about this. It's obviously thrown out here as trivial propaganda, but who cares about this one woman, but the local Libya law enforcement. It's up to them to determine what/where/why/how this woman has been abused, IF she has actually been abused at all. Hopefully, the invaders haven't bombed the local police departments so that citizens have this option.
I see Zionist propaganda websites sticking this trivia all on the web as if it reflects on Gaddaffi. It doesn't. No commander In Chief is responsible for individuals, so STFU.
This is certainly not international news, so go and post it on your Israeli site where someone may actually care.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: This is certainly not international news.
Weird. Lara Logan's assault was.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Don't understand how anyone could have missed that. It was in the news for well over a week.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
@MK
You STFU. You fail to notice the absurdity in this. This would have never been such an international issue had the Qadaffi Regime simply left her alone. But they had to physically abduct her from a 5 star hotel. Phsysically tried to silence her. They had to physically rough up western journalists – which is a no-no.
They should have learned from Egypt. Western reporters there were roughed up and it became very personal with them. They tore Hosni and new one. Qadaffi is next. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
It just isn't important to most.
Millions of people (men & women) are sexually abused every year. Local authorities handle it, and as I said, it is certainly a non-relevant issue in war where many thousands of families have actually lost their lives. It certainly isn't of international interest. Why should we care about one women's CLAIMS of sexual abuse when the whole country is being abused where thousands of people have lost their lives?
It's akin to having the world fall apart all around you and all you're concerned about is your pedicure.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
This is exactly what I'm talking about. They'll argue til they're blue in the face "didn't happen, didn't happen", then when it comes to the point they can't argue it anymore, it's "oh well, don't matter anyway - I don't care" and start rambling about something else, usually oil, colonialism, the new world order, viscious knids and whatever BS conspiracy theory is en vogue today.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Thank You & Keep It Up President Obama ,Coalition and UN
On behalf of the Libyan American community and in support of the citizens of Libya currently under siege by Moammer Gaddafi and his forces, we the undersigned would like to take this opportunity to express our deepest gratitude to the International Community led by the United States, France and Great Britain in conjunction with the United Nations and the Arab League for working to end the suffering of the Libyan people. Moreover, in response to the current debate and discussion in the wake of this crisis we would like to declare the following points.
o We welcome and fully support the passage and complete implementation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 and thank the United States for spearheading the drive to establish a “no fly zone” over Libya and include “all means necessary” to protect civilians from the violence and oppression of the Gaddafi regime. The moral clarity and bold leadership the United States and its allies have undertaken in response to the rapidly escalating crisis in Libya underscores their undeniable commitment to the preservation of human rights, liberty and self-determination.
o Moammer Gaddafi and his forces continue to be in flagrant and egregious violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. Whole cities and towns are being rampantly attacked each day resulting in countless deaths, injuries and destruction of civilian structures. People have been denied access to medical care, food, clean water and electricity in many parts of the country. We urge the United States and its allies to continue to apply and increase forceful pressure on the Gaddafi regime as outlined in Resolution 1973 until all of its objectives are fully achieved with all expediency.
o In the absence of a legitimate government in Tripoli reflecting the will and protecting the rights and lives of the Libyan people, we applaud and unanimously support the establishment of the Interim National Council (INC) of Libya based in the Libyan city of Benghazi as the sole, legal representative and governing body of the nation of Libya. We agree that the objective of this new government is the liberation of all of Libya from the control of Moammer Gaddafi and his supporters and the transition to a free and democratic state.
o Further to the United States’ declaration that Moammer Gaddafi has lost his legitimacy to lead and that a successful outcome to this crisis would be his removal from power, we call on the US to recognize and engage the Interim National Council of Libya as the only legitimate government and voice of the people and to provide all available means of support to it in achieving its defined goals.
We, the undersigned declare that the above mentioned points accurately and clearly convey our position on the ongoing situation in Libya. We actively seek the continued strong support of the United States and its coalition partners in achieving these objectives until Libya is free of the tyranny
I never argued about this even once. In fact, I completely ignored it since it is irrelevant to the discussion of the invasion. The only reason we are discussing this non-issue presently is because Zionist are working over time to explode it's importance beyond reality. That is what Zionists do.
What do you want to discuss next? That some Libyan women had a car Hit and Run accident? If so, expect most of us to ignore that too.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
We welcome and fully support the passage and complete implementation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 and thank the United States for spearheading the drive to establish a “no fly zone” over Libya and include “all means necessary” to protect civilians from the violence and oppression of the Gaddafi regime. The moral clarity and bold leadership the United States and its allies have undertaken in response to the rapidly escalating crisis in Libya underscores their undeniable commitment to the preservation of human rights, liberty and self-determination.
Translation: We welcome the fact that you are fighting our internal civil war for us, and fooling the gullible rubes elsewhere with soothing platitudes. We understand that your commitment to "human rights" is a selective one, and bigger violations elsewhere such as in the Sudan with millions dead will not garner a fraction of the effort you are putting out here. Gracias.
Moammer Gaddafi and his forces continue to be in flagrant and egregious violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. Whole cities and towns are being rampantly attacked each day resulting in countless deaths, injuries and destruction of civilian structures. People have been denied access to medical care, food, clean water and electricity in many parts of the country.
Translation: We are eager to ignore the fact that your bombing will also contribute to what we moan about above - numerous civilian deaths, injuries and destruction of civilian structures as fighting continues in our internal civil war. We lnow that as a sheer matter of survival and evasion of the air strikes, regime troops and supporters have every incentive to blend into civilian guise and continue the battle, causing even more death and destruction. THe bombing and civilian embedding will intensify precisely what we say above: People have been denied access to medical care, food, clean water and electricity in many parts of the country."
We are glad that a compliant Western press will be careful not to full report on this other side of the "humanitarian" intervention. Shukran gazilan.
In the absence of a legitimate government in Tripoli reflecting the will and protecting the rights and lives of the Libyan people, we applaud and unanimously support the establishment of the Interim National Council (INC) of Libya based in the Libyan city of Benghazi as the sole, legal representative and governing body of the nation of Libya.
Translation: We applaud your support of our own agenda and our own group, in overthrowing a legitimate government recognized by the UN. We also applaud your hypocrisy in supporting, or ignoring numerous other regimes with equal or WORSE "human rights" records, like Saudi Arabia, China or Russia. We applaud that in your selective hypocrisy, you will them and numerous others a pass from your precious "human rights" criteria. Danke.
In the absence of a legitimate government in Tripoli ..
Translation: There was a legitimate government in Tripoli and the UN resolution says nothing about its overthrow. But we applaud your shrewd hypocrisy and propaganda campaign that has turned a "no fly" resolution, into overthrow of a legitimate government. Arigato.
Further to the United States’ declaration that Moammer Gaddafi has lost his legitimacy to lead and that a successful outcome to this crisis would be his removal from power//
Translation: We call on the US to continue its shrewd hypocrisy, and its selection of a black front man, epitomy of happy "diversity" to actually carry out the program. Who can argue with a "colored leader" hisself declaring another nation's leader to be "illegitimate." It must be true if he says so. Any who object can be diverted with the "diversity" and "race" cards. Spasibo.
We actively seek the continued strong support of the United States and its coalition partners in achieving these objectives until Libya is free of the tyranny
Translation: We don't really mind that any successor regime may turn out to be a worse tyranny, like that of the Ayatollah's in Iran. or that Al Qaeda operative may as a result gain more influence in the long run. No sweat. As long as Westerners feel noble about "human rights" at the present time, that is all that counts. Asante.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Jubilant Libyan rebels set sights on Gaddafi's hometown
(Image of Black Libyan Revolutionary)
A Libyan rebel sits in his vehicle next to an image of Argentine-born Cuban revolutionary leader Ernesto "Che" Guevara.
JUBILANT rebel forces marching rapidly westward toward Tripoli set their sights on Muammar Gaddafi's hometown stronghold of Sirte as a series of explosions rattled the capital, drawing anti-aircraft fire. Witnesses said the Tripoli airstrikes targeted the road to the international airport 10 kilometers outside the city, as well as a neighborhood on its eastern outskirts, AFP reported.
Two explosions rocked Sirte last night as planes flew overhead but journalists were unable to immediately pinpoint their source.
In other military action, French warplanes carried out strikes on Libyan armored vehicles and a "major munitions depot" in the western Misrata and Zintan regions, French military headquarters said.
Following their military successes, made possible by a week of coalition airstrikes, a confident rebel leadership in Benghazi said they planned to resume oil exports "in less than a week." "We are producing about 100,000 to 130,000 barrels a day. We can easily up that to about 300,000 a day," Ali Tarhoni, the rebel representative responsible for the economy, finance and oil, told AFP.
At the same time, NATO agreed to immediately take full command of operations in Libya from a US-led coalition, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen announced in Brussels.
"NATO will implement all aspects of the UN resolution. Nothing more, nothing less," he said.
NATO officials, however, told AFP the transition would take about 48 hours, meaning the coalition will co-exist with NATO's operation for another two days.
But the question of how long the mission would continue was far from resolved.
Asked on ABC's This Week whether he expected the American military mission in Libya to be over by year's end, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, "I don't think anybody knows the answer to that."
He also suggested on another talk show that "one should not underestimate the possibility of the regime itself cracking." And as for Gaddafi himself, he joked, "I wouldn't be hanging any new pictures if I were him."
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who also made the weekend talk show rounds, maintained, "We're beginning to see, because of the good work of the coalition, his troops begin to turn back toward the west - and to see the opposition begin to reclaim the ground they had lost."
In the last several days, the rebels have taken the coastal oil town of Ajdabiya, then seized control of Brega and Ras Lanuf, a major oil exporting terminal. Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte was firmly in their sights another 100 kilometers down the road - and, with many of his troops based there, expected to be the next major battle.
In the hamlet of Bin Jawad, exultant rebels stuck up a poster of Gaddafi and took potshots at it with automatic rifles as a green Libyan regime flag burned and a group of about 100 chanted, "Moamar, you're a dog," AFP reported.
"Gaddafi's forces are now scared rats," said Mohammed Ali el-Atwish, a bearded 42-year-old fighter. "They are dropping their weapons and uniforms and dressing as civilians. We are no longer concerned about Gaddafi's forces at all."
Al Jazeera reported that Gaddafi forces in Bin Jawad had surrendered without a fight.
As Gaddafi's forces pulled back under international air strikes, it was reported that plans were being drawn up to arm the rebels.
"People are looking at arming the rebels, whether that's by us or by other states," a senior UK government source told The (London) Sunday Times. "If you want to improve the effectiveness of the rebels, then as well as pummeling Gaddafi's forces from the air when they threaten civilians, they could benefit from better and more modern weaponry."
However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
Defence Secretary Robert Gates said intervention in Libya was not vital to US interests, but explained: "You had a potentially significantly destabilising event taking place in Libya that put at risk potentially the revolutions in both Tunisia and Egypt."
If it is not vital to US interests, why is the US involved? And how exactly would a Ghadaffi victory have "put at risk" "revolutions" in Tunisia and Egypt? Right.. Moammar would have ordered Libyans to attack Tunisia and Libya? lmao...
And another howler of the day: -----------------------------------------
Elsewhere, Gates reiterated that regime change was not part of the military mission in Libya.
"As we've seen in the past, regime change is a very complicated business, sometimes it takes a long time, sometimes it can happen very fast. But it was never part of the military mission (in Libya)," he told ABC television.
What a crock of absolute crap. If "regime change" was "never part" of the mission why are your planes providing massive, free flying artillery to overthrow a legitimate government? Why do you have US Special forces on the ground aiding rebels? Why are you giving said rebels a free hand to amass as many weapons as possible? Why are you freely supplying said rebels access to tons of supplies? Does anyone really believe the nonsense you are spinning?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote: Does anyone really believe the nonsense you are spinning?
Believe it or not, there are a few dullards around who are actually thoroughly duped that this is a 'humanitarian' mission.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
British intelligence confirms what Moammar has been saying all along: - rebels have links to al Qaeda.
quote:
quote: "People are looking at arming the rebels, whether that's by us or by other states," a senior UK government source told The (London) Sunday Times. "If you want to improve the effectiveness of the rebels, then as well as pummeling Gaddafi's forces from the air when they threaten civilians, they could benefit from better and more modern weaponry."
However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
And let's see that again from the news article. It appears that the naive Obama Admin is actually helping along terrorists we are supposed to be at war with.. Yes, the British themselves admit Al Qaeda operatives are aiding the rebels. QUOTE:
However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
So again, let's get this straight. We are supposed to be at war with the terrorists of Al Qaeda, but we are aiding people who are being supported by al Qaeda terrorists? You finally are forced to admit it...
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Believe it or not, there are a few dullards around who are actually thoroughly duped that this is a 'humanitarian' mission.
^^ What is really scary is that it might be more than a few..
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Yalla #Libya! Yalla! Reports coming in that revolutionaries have taken over bastard #Gaddafi's hometown Sirte. Onwards to #Tripoli, yalla!
^ "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Thank You & Keep It Up President Obama ,Coalition and UN
^ "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."
I noticed that you only login to ES reply to me. I'm that much in your mind. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
British intelligence confirms what Moammar has been saying all along: - rebels have links to al Qaeda.
quote: However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
"The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."
^^Hmm.. seems like the "Five Mao Army" used by China - hundreds of thousands of moles that flood internet zones to obscure, block and drown out opposition or questioning of the party line. Their payday per post: Five Mao or about 50 cent.
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Thank You & Keep It Up President Obama ,Coalition and UN
^ "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."
I noticed that you only login to ES reply to me. I'm that much in your mind.
I'm always thinking about Moosad agents. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Thank You & Keep It Up President Obama ,Coalition and UN
^ "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."
I noticed that you only login to ES reply to me. I'm that much in your mind.
I'm always thinking about Moosad agents.
Oh, I bet they haunt you. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
British intelligence confirms what Moammar has been saying all along: - rebels have links to al Qaeda.
quote: However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
^^I have no doubt Mossad is well aware of the Al Qaeda connection. But how can the Libyan rebel situation serve Mossad or "banksta" interests?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: British intelligence confirms what Moammar has been saying all along: - rebels have links to al Qaeda.
quote: However, MI6, the British secret intelligence service, apparently warned lawmakers the move was risky, saying the Libyan opposition was "fractured" and that some of its fringe groups were suspected of having links to al Qaeda.
^^I have no doubt Mossad is well aware of the Al Qaeda connection. But how can the Libyan rebel situation serve Mossad or "banksta" interests?
Just as the Iraq war did, destabilize an anti-Zyonist progressive Muslim country.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^So Mossad has a direct interest in getting rid of Moammar because of his support for revolutionary or anti-Zionist movements in the past?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Isn't he still anti-zyonist?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
MORE US BULLSHIIT - LIBYA NOT "REALLY" A WAR, JUST "KINETIC" ACTION
quote: White House: Libya fight is not war, it's 'kinetic military action'
n the last few days, Obama administration officials have frequently faced the question: Is the fighting in Libya a war? From military officers to White House spokesmen up to the president himself, the answer is no. But that leaves the question: What is it?
In a briefing on board Air Force One Wednesday, deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes took a crack at an answer. "I think what we are doing is enforcing a resolution that has a very clear set of goals, which is protecting the Libyan people, averting a humanitarian crisis, and setting up a no-fly zone," Rhodes said. "Obviously that involves kinetic military action, particularly on the front end."
Rhodes and Donilon are by no means alone. "Kinetic" is heard in a lot of descriptions of what's going on in Libya. "As we are successful in suppressing the [Libyan] air defenses, the level of kinetic activity should decline.."
Get it? Military action should "decline" as the Libyan air defenses are suppressed. Instead, the exact opposite has occurred. Military action in support of the rebels has INCREASED after air defenses were liquidated. Stay tuned for another round of Barry Obama's BS...
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
priceless! Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Isn't he still anti-zyonist?
Who isn't?
Everyone in the world hates Zionists because of the trouble they always cause. their greed and arrogance. The only people who don't dislike Zionists are 30% of the Zionist populace, Tea Baggers, and Satan.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
From Henry:
British intelligence confirms what Moammar has been saying all along: - rebels have links to al Qaeda.
I read on this site about a year ago Al Qaeda was a nonexistent organization--it was all made up by the cia to blah, blah,blah. I believe Anguishofbeing was agreeing to it somewhat. I don't recall who the poster was but he had nearly an entire page of Al Qaeda's nonexistence. Is this true? Did the cia make this up? If true then why doesn't Khadaffi know anything about this. You don't mean to tell me the cia is lying now do you. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Al Queda was created by George Bush's father, George Bush, Sr. when he was Director of the CIA. They were created, trained, and armed by the US to oppose Russia's expansion into Afghanistan.
After Russia privatized all of their government services and utilities, it allowed Russian Billionaires to raid the system and siphon off all of the government's monies, corporations, and dignity. As it happens, like Al Queda, these Russian thieves were also financially connected to the Bush family, and they are still business partners today.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
It's official. Qadaffi clan (Qadthafa) and Sirte rolled over without a fight. What happened? I thought they were going to fight to the death for MoMo Qadaffi
Wait it gets better. (and how could it possible get better – read below)
"Abdul Rahman Shalgam tells Al Jazeera that Gaddafi tribesmen are now fleeing to Chad. "The dictatorship is over, this is #Libya's new dawn"
*Abdul Rahman Shalgam is a Black Libyan who was the Libyan Ambassador to the UN. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The CIA lie? gasp! The "West" says it is "fighting" Al Qaeda, but here it is allowing Al Qaeda operatives extensive access to weapons and munitions from Ghafaddi's stocks. Seems a funny way to "fight terrorism.."
The Obama Admin is now desperate that Ghadaffi should be liquidated as soon as possible, as the string of lies told daily increases its credibility gap - like bogus claims 'bout "not taking sides" and "kinetic" action "declining" after the Libyan air force is eliminated, or bogus talk about merely enforcing "no fly" resolutions when the most ruthless application of airpower is being deployed to help rebels overthrow a legitimate government. Its lies are catching up with it. But the death of Moammar does not necessarily mean the end of Obama's problems in Libya- it may only be the beginning.
Assuming Moammar still wants to fight, he may be keeping his powder dry for big confrontations in Tripoli. Again, when you are under attack by highly accurate smart bombs, special forces directing detailed targeting, missiles, drone aircraft flying overhead &monitoring 24/7, not to mention probable C-130 gunships, it is a simple matter of survival that you have to embed yourself deeply among the civilian population and civilian structures and fight from there.
If Moammar still wants to fight, it makes perfect sense as a matter of sheer physical survival for those fighting, to pursue "human shield" tactics that will get a massive number of civilians killed. But of course, this will not be blamed on "the West". The lapdog media will spin the government line, and not ask too many questions about how the West's attacks are driving up the body count of the very civilians they claim to be "protecting."
In a siege the rebels will most likely try "probe and retire" tactics, pulling back to let US/NATO collaborators pound located regime targets. In such a case, Moamar's men have no choice but to lure them deep into built up urban areas and slug it out house by house, fighting as close to the rebels as possible- "hugging tactics" - and involving as many civilian "human shields" as possible, to neutralize Western airpower.
This is the ironic possibility of the Western attack. It can get many more civilians killed than would have been killed if Moammar had been allowed to crush the rebellion as any normal government would crush an internal rebellion. But few will hold "the West" accountable for this perverse outcome. The Internatl Court of Justice conveniently gave NATO a pass for the large amount of civilian causalities its bombing caused in the Kosovo war of the 1990s. The "international community" will again repeat the same pattern- where, despite boilerplate rhetoric, it is still a dependent supplicant of aid and resources from "the West." The "international community" will play along with the double standard.
Another potential outcome is that even if Ghadaffi folds, as desperately sought by the West" his partisans continue to fight, making for an extended civil war. And even if his partisans vanish there are still rebel factions in a "victory", that might to fight over the spoils. This is a common scenario in numerous civil wars. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civil_wars
In addition, the "humanitarian" intervention has made for a golden opportunity for Al Qaeda to build up its arms, munitions and manpower stocks for further attacks on Western interests in the Mideast, using bases in chaotic Libya - all courtesy of Barack Obama. Danke.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
As pundit Frank Gaffney claims, the intervention sets up a handy precedent for liquidating Israel in the future - collaboration by Arab League and the Europeans, a UN resolution, Palestinian forces advancing under UN air cover, and so on.
Some see this as good thing, but would the Jews fold as easily an an Arab regime? The "Masada Option" - house by house, street by street, nuke for nuke -bandied about by some pundits, suggests that maybe not, the Jews will fight on, unlike Arabs. See "Operation Samson" planned by the Israeli's as a "final call" solution.
Serious misinformation is taking place. I'm watching live fighting between revolutionaries and Qadaffi thugs. Sirte has not fallen.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, Any comments on my "Games that nations Play: Libya"--which seems to answer some queries?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, Would you say then that one part of the the imperialist bombing of Libya has to do with setting back once again the idea of a Pan-African Africa?
The West enjoys the advantages of a Pan-European Europe--right? What else is NATO but an European High Command(Nkrumah's idea from way back for an African High Command).
But it is just very eye-opening how South Africa and Nigeria just foolishly sold out to the Jew-corralled fraud in the settler state White House.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, If you are not aware yet the website "informationclearinghouse.info) has some useful postings on the imperialist bombing of Libya.
But I assume you might know it.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
It is just so ironic that the imposter--faking as a white man, faking as a Jew, faking faking--who promised "hope" to million with his windy talks has completely betrayed those hopes.
What he should have been pushing for is to carry the U.S. to the status of the Scandinavian countries in terms of health, welfare and education; opening up completely to Cuba, closing down the prison house known as Gitmo, ending the imperialist adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, closing all those overseas bases that are using up useful resources, etc.
Domestically he could have moved against the huge imbalance in black incarceration--often for petty drug crimes--simply by starting a conversation on it.
The inner cities are still disaster areas in terms of infrastructure and jobs. The imposter could have started a conversation there too. He didn't.
Israel gets $3Billion plus every year--economic depression or not--so given his "hope" talk why not make the argument that depressed areas in the U.S. should get $30B each year for development--automatic. And Africa to get $40B each year only for research centres to fight malaria, and for scientific research in solar energy, making the Sahara and Kalahar desert bloom, etc.
Bush and the Republicans say exactly what they stand for and they go full bore to implement what they stand for. But there's something just disgusting about a guy who gets the blessings of Africa and African America to be such a deceitful fraud. OK you don't want to get involved in Africa so why the unprovoked bombing of Libya?
Who knows maybe it's all psychological. Maybe it has do with the Kenyan father. Who knows?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Re: Sirte Mis-Information
Best for Reuters & Al Jazeera put that latest #Libya correction down to 'the fog of war'
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Melaninking--then Al Qaeda does exist right?
From Henry Cordova:
''Again, when you are under attack by highly accurate smart bombs, special forces directing detailed targeting, missiles, drone aircraft flying overhead &monitoring 24/7, not to mention probable C-130 gunships, it is a simple matter of survival that you have to embed yourself deeply among the civilian population and civilian structures and fight from there.''
...and you knowingly and willingly would embed yourself, in the same room, this civilian structure, knowing full well that those smart bombs are going to kill your entire family and anyone else who happens to be outside that structure, even maybe a hundred yards away, minding their own business, and you are going to get them incinerated too because you are afraid and don't want to hide someplace else? Really! Your entire family! Just so you can fight another day? What!
Further, don't you think the family unit should have something to say about how they are going to die--when they *should* have a choice in this?
Do you really think if those bombs even suspect one man is hiding inside--that they want badly, that the operators are going to have a sudden fit of compassion for anyone in that house or building--even if they knew the family was inside? Have you looked at Afghanistan lately? How about Pakistan?
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Yep.
For civilian casualties and compassion for innocents by UAV and smart bomb spotters, one can merely appreciate Iraqi, Pakistan and Afghanistan civilian casualties rates by US bombings to realize it's validity and the lack of compassion by white murdering albinos.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: It is just so ironic that the imposter--faking as a white man, faking as a Jew, faking faking--who promised "hope" to million with his windy talks has completely betrayed those hopes.
What he should have been pushing for is to carry the U.S. to the status of the Scandinavian countries in terms of health, welfare and education; opening up completely to Cuba, closing down the prison house known as Gitmo, ending the imperialist adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, closing all those overseas bases that are using up useful resources, etc.
Domestically he could have moved against the huge imbalance in black incarceration--often for petty drug crimes--simply by starting a conversation on it.
The inner cities are still disaster areas in terms of infrastructure and jobs. The imposter could have started a conversation there too. He didn't.
Israel gets $3Billion plus every year--economic depression or not--so given his "hope" talk why not make the argument that depressed areas in the U.S. should get $30B each year for development--automatic. And Africa to get $40B each year only for research centres to fight malaria, and for scientific research in solar energy, making the Sahara and Kalahar desert bloom, etc.
Bush and the Republicans say exactly what they stand for and they go full bore to implement what they stand for. But there's something just disgusting about a guy who gets the blessings of Africa and African America to be such a deceitful fraud. OK you don't want to get involved in Africa so why the unprovoked bombing of Libya?
Who knows maybe it's all psychological. Maybe it has do with the Kenyan father. Who knows?
His "African" father abandoned him. This is his vengance! Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Zarahan, Would you say then that one part of the the imperialist bombing of Libya has to do with setting back once again the idea of a Pan-African Africa?
The West enjoys the advantages of a Pan-European Europe--right? What else is NATO but an European High Command(Nkrumah's idea from way back for an African High Command).
But it is just very eye-opening how South Africa and Nigeria just foolishly sold out to the Jew-corralled fraud in the settler state White House.
I don't think it has to do with Pan-African Africa but more with manipulations involving the Arab world. But the manipulation is two-way. In certain aspects, the US is being played by arab gamers as well. See: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=005377;p=1#000001 ........................ Yoichi Shimatsu, "Mideast Revolutions and 9-11 Intrigues Created in Qatar," New America Media, March 1, 2011
"It may puzzle and perhaps dismay young protesters in Benghazi, Cairo and Tunisia that their democratic hopes are being manipulated by an ultra-conservative Arab elite which has underhandedly backed a surge of militant Islamist radicals across North Africa. Credible U.S. intelligence reports have cited evidence pointing to Qatar's long-running support for the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda and jihadist fighters returning from Afghanistan.
^^Hmmm, If this is so, Obama then is being played. His naive "humanitarian" mission serves certain Arab gamers in 3 ways: (a) it gets rid of a long time thorn in their sides- Moammar, (b) demonstrates to the US that it is weak in dealing with fractious Mideast politics and that its 'democracy crusade' is misguided & fraught with danger if a Libyan civil war intensifies even after Moammar, and (c) it expands Islamic jihadism across a broader area of North Africa, just as Pakistan's Intelligence Services helped expand the Taliban while the "official" Pakistan government kept issusing "official" denials of any support for the Taliban. ..........................
PS: didnt see "Games that nations Play: Libya"- can you provide link?
Grumman, I agree that civilians would never approve of such tactics. Never said or implied any such approval. Alas though, it is a fact of the dirty thing called war. It is a dirty, cynical business as said in earlier posts. I said that as a matter of sheer survival, this is what people who want to keep fighting unlimited airpower have to do. The Viet Cong and NVA did it against the Americans for example.
These are the military facts of life, or death. Even if you don't care about civilians, if you want to fight an enemy with superior airpower, you have to embed deep in whatever cover there is. Built-up urban areas provide excellent cover when facing an enemy superior in firepower whether air delivered, or via artillery. British and French troops did it during WWII against the Germans in the Blitzkreig, occupying the nearest farmhouses for cover to keep fighting. Was this "good" for civilians? Of course not. American troops cut off by Germans during WwII, seized civilian structures and kept fighting, as did Russians facing the might of German panzers, Stukas and artillery. You are right that doing this just to keep fighting is very bad news for civilians, very bad indeed. That's war for you.
I would not be surprised if Moammar throws in the towel though. Many people do not rate modern era Arab troops highly. Some on the web argue that the toughest fighters are likely to be the black troops. Black troops have a long reputation for hard-nosed fighting. During the German Blitz of WWII in France, some of the toughest fighting was by blacks fighting for France, who in some areas bore the brunt of the Panzer assault. According to one German report:
"..the French fought tenaciously; the blacks especially used every resource to the bitter end, defended every house. To break them we had to use flame throwers, and, to overcome the last Senegalese we had to kill them one by one." -- R. Edgerton, 2002, Africa's Armies
Contrast the hard-nosed black troops with modern era Arab troops some decades after. One historian of the 1991 Gulf War notes that Saddam's forces did folded without much of a fight despite being well equipped, and explicitly compares them to the African fighters of old, who, armed mostly with spears, posted several credible victories against imperialist troops armed with modern rifles, artillery, rockets and machine guns.
"One side, the Coalition, did virtually all of the fighting; the other, Iraq, did almost all of the dying and surrendering. The Dervishes at Omdurman, the Zulus at Rorke's Drift .. all put up a better fight than did the "world's fourth largest army." -- From: Jeffery Record. 1993. Hollow victory: a contrary view of the Gulf War
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, The U.S. knows exactly what's going on. They are not being played by Arab regimes. Are they smart enough? I doubt it. No, the game is to bring down Gaddafi then deal with the rag tag Al Quaeda--whose only MO is stupid suicide bombings.
The U.S likes Al Quaeda around because it allows the fascist U.S. government to control its populations with its frequent rabit-out-of the-hat airport "terror warnings". Quaeda also allows the U.S. to keep that Pentagon budget rolling up every year.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Enrique:
''I agree that no sane family unit would approve of such tactics. Never said or implied any such approval.''
In that case I apologize.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
lamin I agree that the game is to bring down Moammar, but they have miscalculated. IN bringing him down, they have provided a bonanza for Al Qaeda to gain fresh arms, munitions, supplies and manpower stocks, and a fresh base in Libya, to carry out more attacks against American interests. Maybe it is a "full employment" deal for the Pentagon, but the US will pay down the road. Even Hilary Clinton now admits that Moammar was right all along when he said Al Qaeda operatives were working among the rebels. See:
"Americans, Britons and the French are finding themselves as comrades in arms with the rebel Islamic Fighting Group, the most radical element in the Al Qaeda network [to bring down Gaddhafi]. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted the risks of the unholy alliance in a congressional hearing, saying that the Libyan opposition is probably more anti-American than Muammar Gaddhafi. A decade ago, this very same delusion of a Western-Islamist partnership in Kosovo, Bosnia and Chechnya ended abruptly in the 9/11 attacks."12 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/scott-pd9.1.1.html
^^This is what Moammar has been saying all along. The naive Obama claims to be fighting Al Qaeda terrorists, yet here he is giving said terrorists new resources to conduct future attacks against Americans. Of course, the "bankstas" may not mind that at all- "never waste a good crisis.."
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Lamin: ''The U.S likes Al Quaeda around because it allows the fascist U.S. government to control its populations with its frequent rabit-out-of the-hat airport "terror warnings".
An entire country is controlled by the fear of Al Qaeda? Nope.
''Quaeda also allows the U.S. to keep that Pentagon budget rolling up every year.''
There may be some kernel of truth in that one. But the Pentagon and the U.S war machine is an entity unto itself without Al Qaeda.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^ Yeah, they would seek "full employment" even without Al Qaeda. One wonders about the staying power of native, home grown Libyan forces. More laughable Western pronouncements in this news report: ........................................
Later in the day, the advance continued cautiously as the rebels searched houses along the road and appeared to encounter diminishing resistance from Gaddafi loyalists.
An AFP reporter said nine powerful explosions rocked Sirte early on Monday, as warplanes flew overhead and the coalition operation to enforce a no-fly zone in Libya entered its ninth day. .............................
lol... the rebels are right. They "never heard" of the fictional US/NATO "mission" to "protect" civilians under attack. Why should they when the fictional "protection" force is providing free flying artillery for them? Presumably the bombing is still concerned with the equally fictional "no fly" zone.
Is it only so-called black 'mercenaries' who are hitting back effectively? That would not be surprising. Will home grown Libyans really fight? If their experience in Chad is anything to go by, they may not last long, for they were routed by African troops in the 1980s. Libya has played its own imperialist games with other parts of Africa- but in Chad they backfired, and Libyan troops made a poor showing, despite clear superiority in air and ground assets. According to one military analyst:
"In contrast, Chadian forces possessed nothing more sophisticated than a handful of older Western armored cars, and mostly relied on Toyota pick-up trucks mounting crew-served infantry weapons. The Chadians had no tanks, no APCs, no artillery, no air force, no infantry weapons heavier than the Milan antitank guided missile, and only the complicated and ineffectual Redeye shoulder-launched surface-to-air missile (SAM) for air defence. What's more, the Chadians did not operate their weaponry very well.
Nevertheless, an army of as many as 20,000 Libyans was demolished by 10,000 Chadian regulars and 20,000 tribal militia during eight months of fighting."[24]
-- Ken Pollack, Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, p. 3
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: I read on this site about a year ago Al Qaeda was a nonexistent organization--it was all made up by the cia to blah, blah,blah. believe Anguishofbeing was agreeing to it somewhat.
I said your six million gassed Joos are nonexistent. The holocau$t is a myth, you know, the fable you've been trying to prove since 2008. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Diplomats discuss Libya's future as Italy plots Gaddafi's escape route
Rome is negotiating an African haven for the Libyan leader as international pressure mounts on him to go
"Efforts appear to be under way to offer Muammar Gaddafi a way of escape from Libya, with Italy saying it is trying to organise an African haven for him,
A senior American official signalled that a solution in which Gaddafi flee to a country beyond the reach of the International Criminal Court (ICC), which is investigating war crimes charges against him, would be acceptable to Washington, pointing out that Barack Obama had repeatedly called on Gaddafi to leave. "I can't say I know of active efforts to find him a place to go, but I would not say it has been ruled out," the official said. "The ICC has said it will ready to pursue the case, but there are also the rules of the ICC," he added, pointing out that some countries do not recognise the court's jurisdiction."
Doesn't add up because most African countries are either members that honor the ICC treaty, or members who have yet to ratify the treaty. The only countries in Africa that are not members are: Somalia, Ethiopia, Mauritania, SADR/western Sahara, Rwanda/Burundi, Swaziland and Libya itself.
He may have friends now in some of these African countries that are not members or have yet to ratify the treaty. But what's to prevent a new leader from honoring an arrest warrant in the future? Surely the tyrannt knows this.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Mother of Libyan rape victim says she was offered bribe to change story
The mother of Iman al-Obaidi, who said she was raped by soldiers at a Libyan military check post, says government officials have offered money and a house in return for persuading her daughter to change her story.................
From alleged to "rape victim". lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
President Obama Speech - March 29, 2011- GREAT SPEECH Awesome
Here is the prepared text for President Obama’s address on Libya Monday night:
Good evening. Tonight, I’d like to update the American people on the international effort that we have led in Libya – what we’ve done, what we plan to do, and why this matters to us.
I want to begin by paying tribute to our men and women in uniform who, once again, have acted with courage, professionalism and patriotism. They have moved with incredible speed and strength. Because of them and our dedicated diplomats, a coalition has been forged and countless lives have been saved. Meanwhile, as we speak, our troops are supporting our ally Japan, leaving Iraq to its people, stopping the Taliban’s momentum in Afghanistan, and going after al Qaeda around the globe. As Commander-in-Chief, I am grateful to our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, and their families, as are all Americans.
For generations, the United States of America has played a unique role as an anchor of global security and advocate for human freedom. Mindful of the risks and costs of military action, we are naturally reluctant to use force to solve the world’s many challenges. But when our interests and values are at stake, we have a responsibility to act. That’s what’s happened in Libya over the course of these last six weeks.
Libya sits directly between Tunisia and Egypt – two nations that inspired the world when their people rose up to take control of their own destiny. For more than four decades, the Libyan people have been ruled by a tyrant – Moammar Gaddafi. He has denied his people freedom, exploited their wealth, murdered opponents at home and abroad, and terrorized innocent people around the world – including Americans who were killed by Libyan agents.
Last month, Gaddafi’s grip of fear appeared to give way to the promise of freedom. In cities and towns across the country, Libyans took to the streets to claim their basic human rights. As one Libyan said, “For the first time we finally have hope that our nightmare of 40 years will soon be over.”
Faced with this opposition, Gaddafi began attacking his people. As President, my immediate concern was the safety of our citizens, so we evacuated our embassy and all Americans who sought our assistance. We then took a series of swift steps in a matter of days to answer Qadhafi’s aggression. We froze more than $33 billion of the Gaddafi regime’s assets. Joining with other nations at the United Nations Security Council, we broadened our sanctions, imposed an arms embargo, and enabled Gaddafi and those around him to be held accountable for their crimes. I made it clear that Gaddafi had lost the confidence of his people and the legitimacy to lead, and I said that he needed to step down from power.
In the face of the world’s condemnation, Gaddafi chose to escalate his attacks, launching a military campaign against the Libyan people. Innocent people were targeted for killing. Hospitals and ambulances were attacked. Journalists were arrested, sexually assaulted, and killed. Supplies of food and fuel were choked off. The water for hundreds of thousands of people in Misratah was shut off. Cities and towns were shelled, mosques destroyed, and apartment buildings reduced to rubble. Military jets and helicopter gunships were unleashed upon people who had no means to defend themselves against assault from the air.
Confronted by this brutal repression and a looming humanitarian crisis, I ordered warships into the Mediterranean. European allies declared their willingness to commit resources to stop the killing. The Libyan opposition, and the Arab League, appealed to the world to save lives in Libya. At my direction, America led an effort with our allies at the United Nations Security Council to pass an historic Resolution that authorized a No Fly Zone to stop the regime’s attacks from the air, and further authorized all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people.
Ten days ago, having tried to end the violence without using force, the international community offered Gaddafi a final chance to stop his campaign of killing, or face the consequences. Rather than stand down, his forces continued their advance, bearing down on the city of Benghazi, home to nearly 700,000 men, women and children who sought their freedom from fear.
At this point, the United States and the world faced a choice. Gaddafi declared that he would show “no mercy” to his own people. He compared them to rats, and threatened to go door to door to inflict punishment. In the past, we had seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day. Now, we saw regime forces on the outskirts of the city. We knew that if we waited one more day, Benghazi – a city nearly the size of Charlotte – could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.
It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen.
And so nine days ago, after consulting the bipartisan leadership of Congress, I authorized military action to stop the killing and enforce UN Security Council Resolution 1973. We struck regime forces approaching Benghazi to save that city and the people within it. We hit Gaddafi’s troops in neighboring Ajdabiya, allowing the opposition to drive them out. We hit his air defenses, which paved the way for a No Fly Zone. We targeted tanks and military assets that had been choking off towns and cities and we cut off much of their source of supply. And tonight, I can report that we have stopped Gaddafi’s deadly advance.
In this effort, the United States has not acted alone. Instead, we have been joined by a strong and growing coalition. This includes our closest allies – nations like the United Kingdom, France, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Spain, Greece, and Turkey – all of whom have fought by our side for decades. And it includes Arab partners like Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, who have chosen to meet their responsibility to defend the Libyan people.
To summarize, then: in just one month, the United States has worked with our international partners to mobilize a broad coalition, secure an international mandate to protect civilians, stop an advancing army, prevent a massacre, and establish a No Fly Zone with our allies and partners. To lend some perspective on how rapidly this military and diplomatic response came together, when people were being brutalized in Bosnia in the 1990s, it took the international community more than a year to intervene with air power to protect civilians.
Moreover, we have accomplished these objectives consistent with the pledge that I made to the American people at the outset of our military operations. I said that America’s role would be limited; that we would not put ground troops into Libya; that we would focus our unique capabilities on the front end of the operation, and that we would transfer responsibility to our allies and partners. Tonight, we are fulfilling that pledge.
Our most effective alliance, NATO, has taken command of the enforcement of the arms embargo and No Fly Zone. Last night, NATO decided to take on the additional responsibility of protecting Libyan civilians. This transfer from the United States to NATO will take place on Wednesday. Going forward, the lead in enforcing the No Fly Zone and protecting civilians on the ground will transition to our allies and partners, and I am fully confident that our coalition will keep the pressure on Gaddafi’s remaining forces. In that effort, the United States will play a supporting role – including intelligence, logistical support, search and rescue assistance, and capabilities to jam regime communications. Because of this transition to a broader, NATO-based coalition, the risk and cost of this operation – to our military, and to American taxpayers – will be reduced significantly.
So for those who doubted our capacity to carry out this operation, I want to be clear: the United States of America has done what we said we would do.
That is not to say that our work is complete. In addition to our NATO responsibilities, we will work with the international community to provide assistance to the people of Libya, who need food for the hungry and medical care for the wounded. We will safeguard the more than $33 billion that was frozen from the Gaddafi regime so that it is available to rebuild Libya. After all, this money does not belong to Gaddafi or to us – it belongs to the Libyan people, and we will make sure they receive it.
Tomorrow, Secretary Clinton will go to London, where she will meet with the Libyan opposition and consult with more than thirty nations. These discussions will focus on what kind of political effort is necessary to pressure Gaddafi, while also supporting a transition to the future that the Libyan people deserve. Because while our military mission is narrowly focused on saving lives, we continue to pursue the broader goal of a Libya that belongs not to a dictator, but to its people.
Despite the success of our efforts over the past week, I know that some Americans continue to have questions about our efforts in Libya. Gaddafi has not yet stepped down from power, and until he does, Libya will remain dangerous. Moreover, even after Gaddafi does leave power, forty years of tyranny has left Libya fractured and without strong civil institutions. The transition to a legitimate government that is responsive to the Libyan people will be a difficult task. And while the United States will do our part to help, it will be a task for the international community, and – more importantly – a task for the Libyan people themselves.
In fact, much of the debate in Washington has put forward a false choice when it comes to Libya. On the one hand, some question why America should intervene at all – even in limited ways – in this distant land. They argue that there are many places in the world where innocent civilians face brutal violence at the hands of their government, and America should not be expected to police the world, particularly when we have so many pressing concerns here at home.
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. Given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. But that cannot be an argument for never acting on behalf of what’s right. In this particular country, Libya, at this particular moment, we were faced with the prospect of violence on a horrific scale. We had a unique ability to stop that violence: an international mandate for action, a broad coalition prepared to join us, the support of Arab countries, and a plea for help from the Libyan people themselves.
We also had the ability to stop Gaddafi’s forces in their tracks without putting American troops on the ground.
To brush aside America’s responsibility as a leader and – more profoundly – our responsibilities to our fellow human beings under such circumstances would have been a betrayal of who we are. Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. And as President, I refused to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action.
Moreover, America has an important strategic interest in preventing Gaddafi from overrunning those who oppose him. A massacre would have driven thousands of additional refugees across Libya’s borders, putting enormous strains on the peaceful – yet fragile – transitions in Egypt and Tunisia. The democratic impulses that are dawning across the region would be eclipsed by the darkest form of dictatorship, as repressive leaders concluded that violence is the best strategy to cling to power. The writ of the UN Security Council would have been shown to be little more than empty words, crippling its future credibility to uphold global peace and security. So while I will never minimize the costs involved in military action, I am convinced that a failure to act in Libya would have carried a far greater price for America.
Now, just as there are those who have argued against intervention in Libya, there are others who have suggested that we broaden our military mission beyond the task of protecting the Libyan people, and do whatever it takes to bring down Gaddafi and usher in a new government.
Of course, there is no question that Libya – and the world – will be better off with Gaddafi out of power. I, along with many other world leaders, have embraced that goal, and will actively pursue it through non-military means. But broadening our military mission to include regime change would be a mistake.
The task that I assigned our forces – to protect the Libyan people from immediate danger, and to establish a No Fly Zone – carries with it a UN mandate and international support. It is also what the Libyan opposition asked us to do. If we tried to overthrow Gaddafi by force, our coalition would splinter. We would likely have to put U.S. troops on the ground, or risk killing many civilians from the air. The dangers faced by our men and women in uniform would be far greater. So would the costs, and our share of the responsibility for what comes next.
To be blunt, we went down that road in Iraq. Thanks to the extraordinary sacrifices of our troops and the determination of our diplomats, we are hopeful about Iraq’s future. But regime change there took eight years, thousands of American and Iraqi lives, and nearly a trillion dollars. That is not something we can afford to repeat in Libya.
As the bulk of our military effort ratchets down, what we can do – and will do – is support the aspirations of the Libyan people. We have intervened to stop a massacre, and we will work with our allies and partners as they’re in the lead to maintain the safety of civilians. We will deny the regime arms, cut off its supply of cash, assist the opposition, and work with other nations to hasten the day when Gaddafi leaves power. It may not happen overnight, as a badly weakened Gaddafi tries desperately to hang on to power. But it should be clear to those around Gadaffi, and to every Libyan, that history is not on his side. With the time and space that we have provided for the Libyan people, they will be able to determine their own destiny, and that is how it should be.
Let me close by addressing what this action says about the use of America’s military power, and America’s broader leadership in the world, under my presidency.
As Commander-in-Chief, I have no greater responsibility than keeping this country safe. And no decision weighs on me more than when to deploy our men and women in uniform. I have made it clear that I will never hesitate to use our military swiftly, decisively, and unilaterally when necessary to defend our people, our homeland, our allies, and our core interests. That is why we are going after al Qaeda wherever they seek a foothold. That is why we continue to fight in Afghanistan, even as we have ended our combat mission in Iraq and removed more than 100,000 troops from that country.
There will be times, though, when our safety is not directly threatened, but our interests and values are. Sometimes, the course of history poses challenges that threaten our common humanity and common security – responding to natural disasters, for example; or preventing genocide and keeping the peace; ensuring regional security, and maintaining the flow of commerce. These may not be America’s problems alone, but they are important to us, and they are problems worth solving. And in these circumstances, we know that the United States, as the world’s most powerful nation, will often be called upon to help.
In such cases, we should not be afraid to act – but the burden of action should not be America’s alone. As we have in Libya, our task is instead to mobilize the international community for collective action. Because contrary to the claims of some, American leadership is not simply a matter of going it alone and bearing all of the burden ourselves. Real leadership creates the conditions and coalitions for others to step up as well; to work with allies and partners so that they bear their share of the burden and pay their share of the costs; and to see that the principles of justice and human dignity are upheld by all.
That’s the kind of leadership we have shown in Libya. Of course, even when we act as part of a coalition, the risks of any military action will be high. Those risks were realized when one of our planes malfunctioned over Libya. Yet when one of our airmen parachuted to the ground, in a country whose leader has so often demonized the United States – in a region that has such a difficult history with our country – this American did not find enemies. Instead, he was met by people who embraced him. One young Libyan who came to his aid said, “We are your friends. We are so grateful to these men who are protecting the skies.”
This voice is just one of many in a region where a new generation is refusing to be denied their rights and opportunities any longer. Yes, this change will make the world more complicated for a time. Progress will be uneven, and change will come differently in different countries. There are places, like Egypt, where this change will inspire us and raise our hopes. And there will be places, like Iran, where change is fiercely suppressed. The dark forces of civil conflict and sectarian war will have to be averted, and difficult political and economic concerns addressed.
The United States will not be able to dictate the pace and scope of this change. Only the people of the region can do that. But we can make a difference. I believe that this movement of change cannot be turned back, and that we must stand alongside those who believe in the same core principles that have guided us through many storms: our opposition to violence directed against one’s own citizens; our support for a set of universal rights, including the freedom for people to express themselves and choose their leaders; our support for governments that are ultimately responsive to the aspirations of the people.
Born, as we are, out of a revolution by those who longed to be free, we welcome the fact that history is on the move in the Middle East and North Africa, and that young people are leading the way. Because wherever people long to be free, they will find a friend in the United States. Ultimately, it is that faith – those ideals – that are the true measure of American leadership.
My fellow Americans, I know that at a time of upheaval overseas – when the news is filled with conflict and change – it can be tempting to turn away from the world. And as I have said before, our strength abroad is anchored in our strength at home. That must always be our North Star – the ability of our people to reach their potential, to make wise choices with our resources, to enlarge the prosperity that serves as a wellspring of our power, and to live the values that we hold so dear.
But let us also remember that for generations, we have done the hard work of protecting our own people, as well as millions around the globe. We have done so because we know that our own future is safer and brighter if more of mankind can live with the bright light of freedom and dignity. Tonight, let us give thanks for the Americans who are serving through these trying times, and the coalition that is carrying our effort forward; and let us look to the future with confidence and hope not only for our own country, but for all those yearning for freedom around the world. Thank you, God Bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America.
"The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda." Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Man...This senseless war is terrible.
You want the people of Libya to live and support peace. They have advantages other African countries people can only dream of.
Now Exiled said that there is missinfo going on and that Serte has not fallen. It seems even the western media is trying to make out that the rebels are running through the Gaddafi soldiers.
I also agree with Lamin about Obama. He is really a joke...Talks about Change but does nothing to help the poor Black and Hispanic communities. Build up your people Obama instead of working to serve Israel and screw your people.
You hope something Good comes out of this stupid war and the Libyans can show that they really are not racist and attacking Black Libyans. It's time North Africans realize that Africans are there Brothers and Sisters and supports and respects them and not claiming that Africans are mercenaries.
Peace
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
President Obama Speech - March 29, 2011- GREAT SPEECH [Smile] Awesome
For more than four decades, the Libyan people have been ruled by a tyrant – Moammar Gaddafi. He has denied his people freedom, exploited their wealth, murdered opponents at home and abroad, and terrorized innocent people around the world – including Americans who were killed by Libyan agents.
Why havent you done anything about the Iranians who have done even worse? In fact you ducked when the Iranian opposition needed your support. How come?
Last month, Gaddafi’s grip of fear appeared to give way to the promise of freedom. In cities and towns across the country, Libyans took to the streets to claim their basic human rights. As one Libyan said, “For the first time we finally have hope that our nightmare of 40 years will soon be over.” Faced with this opposition, Gaddafi began attacking his people.
You don't seem to have the same level of concern for the massacres carried out by client state Syria or the massacres in Iran. Now why is that?
and I said that he needed to step down from power.
Who are you to demand that the head of a legtimate government step down? The Taliban have asked you several times to cease and desist your office, as has Venezuelan ruler Chavez. WHy haven't you "obeyed"?
Innocent people were targeted for killing. Hospitals and ambulances were attacked. Journalists were arrested, sexually assaulted, and killed. Supplies of food and fuel were choked off. The water for hundreds of thousands of people in Misratah was shut off. Cities and towns were shelled, mosques destroyed, and apartment buildings reduced to rubble. Military jets and helicopter gunships were unleashed upon people who had no means to defend themselves against assault from the air.
This has been done by several regimes before Moammar. How come you weren't concerned then, and why don't you do something about it now? WHy arent you calling for sanctions against Russia after the much worse devastation it wrought in Chechyna? How about China in Tibet and its massacre of numerous civilians? Why such selective "humanitarian" concern?
Confronted by this brutal repression and a looming humanitarian crisis, What about the humanitarian crisis you will have provoked if Moammar digs in and fights house to house in Tripoli? That will get a lot more people killed than if he were allowed to put down an internal rebellion, which it is his perfect right to do as a head of state. That he needs reforms is clear but it is his prerogative as head of state.
at this point, the United States and the world faced a choice.
You could have chosen NOT to get involved in someone else's civil war with no vital US interests at stake. You could have chosen not to give Al Qaeda fresh arms, munitions and manpower and a fresh base in Libya to kill more Americans in the future.
I said that America’s role would be limited;
This is complete nonsense. In fact you have chosen sides in an internal civil war and committed American prestige to a project that can turn very ugly as Libya descends into chaos, with or without Moammar. A chaotic Libya can get many more people killed than if Moammar had been allowed to put down his internal rebellion.
Our most effective alliance, NATO, has taken command of the enforcement of the arms embargo and No Fly Zone. Last night, NATO decided to take on the additional responsibility of protecting Libyan civilians. This transfer from the United States to NATO
What "transfer?' Most of the assets are US, and the key comanders are Americans, and you have mortgaged American prestige to your naive project. No one buys the flim-flam of a "hand over"..
.. at this particular moment, we were faced with the prospect of violence on a horrific scale.
Nonsense. You were faced with another small internal rebellion in another distant state where US interests were not vital. But you pushed ahead naively, with the prospect of causing sunstantial civilian deaths with your "limited" bombing.
Moreover, America has an important strategic interest in preventing Gaddafi from overrunning those who oppose him. A massacre would have driven thousands of additional refugees across Libya’s borders, putting enormous strains on the peaceful – yet fragile – transitions in Egypt and Tunisia.
Since when are you so concerned with refugees? Africa is filled with many more refugees than any potential Libyan "crisis." How come you are not so solicitous of them? When do they get their "no fly" zones?
That is why we are going after al Qaeda wherever they seek a foothold.
Sheer nonsense. In fact, by intervening in someone else's civil war, you have given Al Qaeda access to fresh arms, munitions and manpower, and a fresh base in Libya to kill more Americans in the future. Your own Secretary of State has admitted this, so has British Intelligence. Your naive mission is actually helping a sworn enemy of the United States down the road.
The United States will not be able to dictate the pace and scope of this change
But you have already started "dictating" things beginning with your demand that Moamar must go.
But let us also remember that for generations, we have done the hard work of protecting our own people, as well as millions around the globe.
No, you have opened up new opportunities for terrorists to attack Americans in the future. ==========================================================
Originally posted by KING:
quote:It's time North Africans realize that Africans are there Brothers and Sisters and supports and respects them and not claiming that Africans are mercenaries.
King I hope too the crisis can be resolved with as little bloodshed as possible. This means ALL parties to the bloodshed, including parties bombing from the air around the clock pull back. There are any number of options ranging from a "transitional" regime allowing Moammar a "decent interval" to Moammar staying on board while implementing democratic reforms, to several other possibilities. But by demanding that Moammar step down right off the bat, US prestige has been committed to just that object. It has less to do with the Libyan people now, and more' the US saving face.
The Somalia situation, where US prestige was committed to capturing an obscure warlord morphed into the total "Black Hawk Down" fiasco, that emboldened Al Qaeda. Even if Moammar goes the problems of a post Moammar chaotic Libya with squabbling factions, plus Moammar's partisans still in the picture and fighting, promises to turn the future situation into YET ANOTHER fiasco for America.
As for those who talk about black African "mercenaries" if is quite likely, based on the previous performance of Libyan and Arab armies in the modern era that the only ones who will put up a good fight will be black African troops. When Libyan forces were in Chad in the 1980s they were completely routed by lightly armed black African fighters who did not possess 1/5th of the hardware at the Libyan's disposal.
[quote:]
"In contrast, Chadian forces possessed nothing more sophisticated than a handful of older Western armored cars, and mostly relied on Toyota pick-up trucks mounting crew-served infantry weapons. The Chadians had no tanks, no APCs, no artillery, no air force, no infantry weapons heavier than the Milan antitank guided missile, and only the complicated and ineffectual Redeye shoulder-launched surface-to-air missile (SAM) for air defence. What's more, the Chadians did not operate their weaponry very well.
Nevertheless, an army of as many as 20,000 Libyans was demolished by 10,000 Chadian regulars and 20,000 tribal militia during eight months of fighting."
-- Ken Pollack, Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, p. 3
And in WWII, again, it was black African troops fighting for France who turned in some of the toughest fighting performances, and who in some areas areas bore the brunt of the blitzkrieg Panzer assault, by much better equipped, first tank German forces. According to one German WW II report:
"..the French fought tenaciously; the blacks especially used every resource to the bitter end, defended every house. To break them we had to use flame throwers, and, to overcome the last Senegalese we had to kill them one by one." -- R. Edgerton, 2002, Africa's Armies
Contrast the hard-nosed black troops with modern era Arab troops some decades after. One historian of the 1991 Gulf War notes that Saddam's forces did folded without much of a fight despite being well equipped, and explicitly compares them to the African fighters of old, who, armed mostly with spears, posted several credible victories against imperialist troops armed with modern rifles, artillery, rockets and machine guns.
"One side, the Coalition, did virtually all of the fighting; the other, Iraq, did almost all of the dying and surrendering. The Dervishes at Omdurman, the Zulus at Rorke's Drift .. all put up a better fight than did the "world's fourth largest army." -- From: Jeffery Record. 1993. Hollow victory: a contrary view of the Gulf War
If anything, Moammar's skin can only be saved by so-called black "mercenary" troops. at least, THEY are likely to put up a strong fight.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing:
''I said your six million gassed Joos are nonexistent.
Yeah I agree, it's your figure of one million or less. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^If Moammar had 5-6 divisions of Jews or 5-6 divisions of black Africans, or VC/PAVN regulars he would not be in the predicament he is in now. One wonders if he intends to fight. He let two key cities, Benghazi and Misrata, both built up urban areas with populations exceeding half a million each, fall into the hands of the rebels, cities that could have been resolutely defended using their civilian structures to neutralize Western airpower, and bog down the rebels in slow, grinding defensive battles.
Why hasnt he made whatever political and reform concessions are necessary and mobilize for a hard-nosed struggle? Does the man really intend to fight or will his forces fold quickly like so many modern era Arab armies?
On the other hand mayne he is negotiating behind the scenes for a graceful exit.
By James Blitz in London and Daniel Dombey in Washington
Published: March 28 2011
Russia has expressed concern that the Nato coalition is going well beyond its UN mandate, as rebel forces and allied air strikes focus on the same targets.
Under the terms of UN Security Council resolution 1973, agreed 12 days ago, UN members are entitled to take “all necessary measures” to protect civilians under attack in Libya.
In the immediate aftermath of the resolution, Britain, France and the US specified they wanted Muammer Gaddafi to pull his forces out of the towns and cities of Misurata, Benghazi and Ajdabiya. In the past few days, however, Nato has attacked pro-Gaddafi forces elsewhere, notably around Col Gaddafi’s stronghold of Sirte, the target of a big rebel push.
Russia was quick to voice concern on Monday that the action of the past two days had gone beyond the protection of civilians. “There are reports – and nobody denies them – of coalition strikes on columns of Gaddafi’s forces; reports about support for actions by the armed insurgents,” said Sergei Lavrov, foreign minister. “We consider that intervention by the coalition in what is essentially an internal civil war is not sanctioned by the UN Security Council resolution.”
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Nato’s secretary-general, insisted that the alliance was sticking to the UN remit: “Our mission is to protect civilians against attack. Nato is impartial.’’
The Pentagon also denied it was either acting “in direct support of the opposition” or co-ordinating with the rebels, although the US state department now says it is “in contact with them constantly”.
At a briefing at the Pentagon, Vice-Admiral William Gortney, director of the US military’s joint staff, conceded that the rebels were “achieving a benefit from the actions” of the coalition. But he justified the strikes on other grounds, describing Sirte as a command-and-control site.
lmao... Right.. Everything is a "command and control" site to justify your bombing. What next, fried chikin joints or laundromats to target? What are the Russians "concerned" about anyway? It is inevitable that the "humanitarian" mission would morph into taking sides in an internal civil war once Obama had committed the prestige of the US. The primary concern now is not "humanitarian protection" of civilians but for NATO and the US to save face.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Zarahan, Would you say then that one part of the the imperialist bombing of Libya has to do with setting back once again the idea of a Pan-African Africa?
The West enjoys the advantages of a Pan-European Europe--right? What else is NATO but an European High Command(Nkrumah's idea from way back for an African High Command).
Of course this is the case and primary concern of invaders and Arabs who want to expand, but as usual Arabs are technologically ignorant, so have to depend 100% on US/Israeli aggression to open the path.
Once the US clears out all of Libya's air force and cannon placements, the Socially retarded Arabs may then over run the location, stand around not knowing what to do until the US informs them of their next move.
I always hoped that Budge had been wrong about the Arab history of invading and destroying great ancient monuments and treasures due to their cultural lack of technical understanding, but after we've seen what the idiots did to Babylon, Egypt, and the horn, it appears Budge's comment's were on the money.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Anguishofbeing:
''I said your six million gassed Joos are nonexistent.
Yeah I agree, it's your figure of one million or less.
less, much less. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
This, from Obama's yesterday speech, shows the true character of US intervention in Libya...
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. - Obama, March 28.
Even the slowest people should not be able to misconstrue the implications of those words. The idea that action is only taken when it serves the American state's "interest" puts a lie to the official pretext given for the intervention in Libya as a "humanitarian" gesture.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This, from Obama's yesterday speech, shows the true character of US intervention in Libya...
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. - Obama, March 28.
Even the slowest people should not be able to misconstrue the implications of those words. The idea that action is only taken when it serves the American state's "interest" puts a lie to the official pretext given for the intervention in Libya as a "humanitarian" gesture.
Or rather action ISN'T taken when it DOESN'T serve US interests, to put it in the context in which it was meant.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: .....
Even the slowest people should not be able to misconstrue the implications of those words. The idea that action is only taken when it serves the American state's "interest" puts a lie to the official pretext given for the intervention in Libya as a "humanitarian" gesture.
Mother fucker, you write the most belaboured and tortured sentences I have had the misfortune of coming across...
Which is why I always ignored your inane babblings until you made it a habit to interject into my conversations.
But I would rather you go finish suuking your mother's pussy as you are known to do before coming here to write sorrow stupidity!
Go now, go suuk your mother's vaginas! Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Monkey: ''Or rather action ISN'T taken when it DOESN'T serve US interests, to put it in the context in which it was meant.''
It sure looks clear to me.
Posted by Mugisha (Member # 6729) on :
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Libya vs. Iraq: ‘Making Charlie Sheen seem rational’
^^lol... "Obama is awesome is the mantra.." Oneinteresting point raised is that most of Libya's oil goes to Europe. Are they implying that liquidating Ghadaffi open ups greater avenues of control over that resource for the Europeans, with the double bonus for the Arab League in ridding them of a long standing thorn in their sides?
In Tripoli, Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim said at a news conference that the Gaddafi government was ready to accept international ceasefire monitors and to begin a national dialogue on political change - an offer rebels have rejected in the past.
Mr Kaim said Libya accepted UN Security Council resolution 1973, which calls for an immediate ceasefire, an end to attacks on civilians and a political solution that meets the ''legitimate demands of the Libyan people''.
---------------------------------------
^^So Moammar has accepted the UN Resolution. Well now, let us see what the feckless UN has to say about ALL bloodshedders, including US/NATO planes ceasing and desisting, after having turned what was a relatively small rebellion into a nationwide civil war in Libya. Will "member nations" demand reciprocity, or will "the international community" once more kowtow to vested European interests? And will "the international community" demand a full accounting of people that have died from "humanitarian" bombing, as well as action by the rebels?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This, from Obama's yesterday speech, shows the true character of US intervention in Libya...
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. - Obama, March 28.
Even the slowest people should not be able to misconstrue the implications of those words. The idea that action is only taken when it serves the American state's "interest" puts a lie to the official pretext given for the intervention in Libya as a "humanitarian" gesture.
Or rather action ISN'T taken when it DOESN'T serve US interests, to put it in the context in which it was meant.
How was it taken out of context? Its basically the same thing: Its about interests, the humanitarian argument is BS. Give it up man. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ok, ahem, lady (?). I wasn't very erudite. This is what I mean.
Scenario 1. The US takes an act to serve it's own interests.
Scenario 2. The US doesn't take an act because their doing so will harm their interests.
They are two separate things to me.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Scenario 1. The US takes an act to serve it's own interests.
Scenario 2. The US doesn't take an act because their doing so will harm their interests.
Translation: the US only acts in its own self-interest. Humanitarianism doesn't enter the picture. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
That's your translation.
Mine is that they don't take humanitarian actions where these conflict with their own interests.
It isn't the same thing.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: they don't take humanitarian actions where these conflict with their own interests.
So when they do, or say they do, its "humanitarian"? Explain.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ah, come on anguish. I know you just want someone to toy with til Exiiled gets here
I explained already I thought, but I'll explain once more since you asked so nicely.
Ok. There's an olympic swimmer taking a walk down by the river. He sees a guy in there drowning. He rescues him. Do you say the swimmer only did this for the reward/publicity? Or would you say it was a humanitarian act?
Now, if the swimmer wouldn't jump in because the river in question was full of crocodiles, then this is his prerogative.
It's up to you. You can see it however you want to - for me it don't matter one jot. I'm not going to try to persuade you. But before you come out with "how can a humanitarian act involve firing missiles?" I will ask you, how many civilians have been killed by foreign intervention, and how many people are walking around in Benghazi today who would otherwise be dead?
That's my lot. Take care now. Bye bye then.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Actually I was going to ask which US action, in your view, constitutes a "humanitarian act"?
Your silly ramblings remind me of Obama's excuse [or one of] for going into Libya: it was in order to avert a refugee crisis in Egypt! Yes, the NATO bombings in favor of one side in the civil war sure took care of that problem did it! LOL!
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Translation: Their bogus "humanitarian" intervention is not going so nicely according to plan. Moammar was supposed to have run away by now, but he hasn't. And the much touted "freedom fighters" contain a clear strain of AL Qaeda. And not only Al Qaeda, but Hezbollah fighters aree on the ground as well according to their own intelligence services.
As for so-called "debate" on "arming the rebels" what sheer BS. They are ALREADY arming the rebels, ALREADY giving them unfettered access to captured arms, and ALREADY providing free flying artillery and Special Forces support, all the while claiming to be "impartial." lmao..
When is the vaunted "investigative journalism" of the NY Times to tell people the real facts?
Washington Debates Idea of Arming Libyan Rebels Anja Niedringhaus/Associated Press
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is engaged in a fierce debate over whether to supply weapons to the rebels in Libya, senior officials said on Tuesday, with some fearful that providing arms would deepen American involvement in a civil war and that some fighters may have links to Al Qaeda.
The debate has drawn in the White House, the State Department and the Pentagon, these officials said, and has prompted an urgent call for intelligence about a ragtag band of rebels who are waging a town-by-town battle against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, from a base in eastern Libya long suspected of supplying terrorist recruits.
“Al Qaeda in that part of the country is obviously an issue,” a senior official said.
These fears surfaced publicly on Capitol Hill on Tuesday when the military commander of NATO, Adm. James G. Stavridis, told a Senate hearing that there were “flickers” in intelligence reports about the presence of Qaeda and Hezbollah members among the rebels. No full picture of the opposition has emerged, Admiral Stavridis said. While eastern Libya was the center of Islamist protests in the late 1990s, it is unclear how many groups retain ties to Al Qaeda.
The French government, which has led the international charge against Colonel Qaddafi, has placed mounting pressure on the United States to provide greater assistance to the rebels. The question of how best to support the opposition dominated an international conference about Libya on Tuesday in London, attended by President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and other coalition leaders. ----------------------------------------------------
"The road east of the capital to Misratah told a story of use to the rebels aiming to advance westward: an apparent lack of serious defenses. Yet further to the west, numerous checkpoints line the road, including one where soldiers and militiamen have been confiscating cassette tapes and breaking mobile phones.
But soldiers camped at points along the road appeared little deterrence to a future rebel advance. Troops lounged near canvas tents, hung laundry on lines strung between eucalyptus trees, and had huge aluminum pots piled up for making food.
Multi-barreled heavy machine guns and even tanks were hidden under trees or buried under branches for concealment. One military fuel truck tucked under a tree was destroyed by an airstrike. But there were few of those among the olive groves east of the capital, even as – closer to Misratah – they turned to palm groves.
One set of picnickers with a red car raised their arms in triumph as a journalists’ bus passed by, with official police escort."
----------
At the same time one wonders if Libyan troops are ready to fight it out as the "coalition" seeks to save face by intensifying bombing and trying to bolster their proxies on the ground. According to the story below, Libyan troops seem quite casual.. Once things like C-130 gunships arrive however the environment will not be casual at all. Do they have the stomach to fight like the black troops of WWII against the panzers, or the Chadians, or the tough, hardcore VC/PAVN regulars against US forces in Vietnam? Maybe they anticipate a ceasefire so are relaxing. Maybe Moammar can still play the UN and maneuver politically.. If so less civilian casualties as the 'crisis' winds down.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [qb] This, from Obama's yesterday speech, shows the true character of US intervention in Libya...
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. - Obama, March 28.
Even the slowest people should not be able to misconstrue the implications of those words. The idea that action is only taken when it serves the American state's "interest" puts a lie to the official pretext given for the intervention in Libya as a "humanitarian" gesture.
Or rather action ISN'T taken when it DOESN'T serve US interests, to put it in the context in which it was meant.
LOL, reversing the order of words around is of what significance? Or are you shooting for sound "effect"?
Note "interests" are measured against "the need for action", meaning even for something warranting the "need for action", the U.S. aristocracy's "interests" will be "measured" against it first. This means that the official justification for violating Libya's national sovereignty was not done in the interests of ordinary Libyan people, as the Obama administration professes, but rather, it was driven by the U.S. aristocracy's own "interests" in the region.
They have already violated the terms of the UN resolation. The no-fly zone resolution does not cover taking sides in a civil war.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
"World leaders" holding conferences about Libya's future, but no Libyans invited -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International conference in London plots Libya future A few representatives of the rebels fighting Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi hovered on the fringes of the talks. Their absence from the meetings reflected how politically delicate the crisis remains. Reporting from London— With the U.S. handing off responsibility for military action in Libya, scores of diplomats and international officials gathered in London to start plotting the country's future and declared their resolve to maintain pressure on Moammar Kadafi until he stops attacking his own people.
But there were no Libyans included in the blue-ribbon guest list Tuesday. Nor was there a consensus among NATO countries taking command of the military action on its ultimate goal, or whether it would be enough for Kadafi to flee to another country rather than face prosecution.
A few representatives of the rebels fighting Kadafi hovered on the fringes of the high-level talks. However, their absence from the meetings was a reflection of just how politically delicate the crisis in Libya remains, and how much its outcome could depend on outside factors.
-------------------------
Howler of the day:
".. declared their resolve to maintain pressure on Moammar Kadafi until he stops attacking his own people.
^^No word yet on whether they are also asking rebels to stop attacking Kadafi's forces, or civilians who SUPPORT Kadaffi. Apparently civilians who support Kadaffi, don't count as "the anointed" Libyan "people" by the European manipulators. The hypocrisy of "the West" continues. -------------------------------------------
Door ajar for Gaddafi to escape into exile BRITAIN, the United States and Italy have signalled that they may be prepared to allow Muammar Gaddafi to flee Libya, possibly into swift exile in Africa.
The possibility has been raised as more than 40 foreign ministers, and the leadership of the United Nations, NATO, Arab states and the African Union arrived in London for a summit on Libya.
^^ MORE HYPOCRISY The UN resolution spoke of the "wishes of the Libyan people", so why then are the European Union, its US lackey and the Arab League dictating who should and should not be the leader of the Libyan people? Kadaffi has his own base of support, and they too form part of the Libyan population. Let the Libyans AS A WHOLE decide THEIR OWN future, not outsiders. Note the feckless presence of the AU, the so-called African Union, obedient "diversity" lapdogs of Europe. How come they aren't standing up for the right of the "people" to select their own leaders? And why is it in assorted "Western" news reports that one rarely gets to read what the Kadaffi side has to say on its own behalf? In numerous "news" reports all you get is a truncated blurb by the
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
"the regime."
In the article above, "world leaders" (read the European Union cabal and American lackeys) generously hint that a ceasefire may be available if Moammar leaves. But why does Moammar need to leave to have any ceasefire? He can and should negotiate his own local ceasefire on the ground, and can and should make whatever local concessions and reforms he needs to make, including new elections if need be with his opponents. Its called local politics.
Why are Europeans dictating the internal affairs of the Libyan people? Give Moammar a chance to make his own package of concessions or reforms, just as Mubarak made his own concessions in Egypt. If part of those concessions is that he resign, OR stay on, well then let Libyans themselves decide. Moammar has plenty of backers. They deserve a voice as well, not only those "approved" by the European cabal. If said cabal wants to criticize or cut off financial aid, fine. It's their prerogative to withhold their dollars, or make whatever criticisms they want. But let the local people decide their own affairs, ALL the local people, not "the chosen" of the cabal. Isn't that what so-called UN "self-determination is all about? Why the hell is the US, NATO or the feckless African Lapdogs er, Union involved? Let the local people decide.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
I explained already I thought, but I'll explain once more since you asked so nicely.
Ok. There's an olympic swimmer taking a walk down by the river. He sees a guy in there drowning. He rescues him. Do you say the swimmer only did this for the reward/publicity? Or would you say it was a humanitarian act?
Now, if the swimmer wouldn't jump in because the river in question was full of crocodiles, then this is his prerogative.
So, interfering in the Libyan conflict is presumably not a "safety hazard" to the US, but conflicts in other places that fare no better than that in Libya are?
To you, the U.S. "interests" is synonymous with "avoiding a life-threatening situation", rather than resource hoarding and profit-driven ambitions?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
OTHER NEWS REPORTS CONTRADICT BOGUS CLAIMS OF OBAMA AND EUROPEANS
Note a spate of stories in "mainstream" media and claims by US and NATO officials that they are "debating" arming the rebels- giving the bogus impression that the rebels have no arms, trying to downplay the degree of collaboration and aid they are actually giving the rebels. But in the story below, the fleeing rebels are well supplied with small arms, mortars heavy machine guns, recoiless rifles and even 106mm artillery.
They are even have supposed to have seized multiple rocket launchers earlier. This shows the web of lies being spun by US and NATO, and how, far from "remaining impartial" they have encouraged unfettered access to arms and munitions seized from regime stocks, or supplied via the CIA or the Coalition. Claims about some "debate" in the Obama Admin about "whether to arm" the rebels are just more false spin to present a bogus gloss of "impartiality."
BIN JAWWAD, Libya -- A sustained counterattack by Libyan government troops sent overmatched rebel fighters fleeing eastward for almost 100 miles Tuesday, erasing many of the weekend gains by opposition forces attempting to overthrow Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
Panicked and badly rattled, hundreds of rebels sped away from the front to escape fierce rocket barrages by Gadhafi's soldiers and militiamen. Rebel gun trucks raced three abreast and jostled madly for position on a coastal highway choked with retreating fighters and civilians. At one point, rebels surrendered 70 miles of terrain in just four hours.
It was a humiliating rout for a volunteer fighting force that had advanced 150 miles in 24 hours over the weekend behind allied airstrikes that pummeled government troops and armor. Many rebels had spoken confidently of marching on Tripoli, the capital, buoyed by false news reports Monday that their forces had captured Gadhafi's hometown garrison of Sirte. Among those fleeing were rebels driving trucks mounted with the opposition's most effective weapons: 106mm artillery, heavy machine guns and recoilless rifles. Rebels firing behind sand dunes shouted at them to turn around, but they ignored them and sped east.
Some fighters acknowledged that they felt helpless against the BM-21 Grad rocket systems that pounded rebel positions throughout the day. There was no sign near Bin Jawwad of Grad batteries that rebels seized from government forces last weekend.
^It seems here at least Moammar's forces are actually fighting, biding their time in defence and then hitting hard to rout the Euro-cabal's proxies. This is the correct strategy- control strategic points and areas, defend in width (dispersal to defeat airpower) and let the rebels come to them. Don't roll long vulnerable columns of troops and weapons out in the open where the cabal's air power will pick them off.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: So, interfering in the Libyan conflict is presumably not a "safety hazard" to the US, but conflicts in other places that fare no better than that in Libya are?
To you, the U.S. "interests" is synonymous with "avoiding a life-threatening situation", rather than resource hoarding and profit-driven ambitions?
Indeed. If anything, Libyan civilians will be put into even more life-threatening situations because the Euro-cabal is increasingly desperate to save face. If Moammar resolutely fights a patient defensive strategy, coupled with a shrewd political strategy, he will stymie their designs, and drive off the rebels in various local battles. The only hope of the Cabal to avoid continued embarassment is to step up aerial assaults even more, and this means among other things C-130 gunships.
No doubt we all know these planes not only carry heavy gatling-type machine guns that can punch through concrete block and stucco, but carry heavy howitzer artillery weapons as well. Unlike the VC and PAVN in Vietnam, Moammar's men lack good anti-aircraft weapons in quantity, like the hand held Strela missiles (SA-7s) that brought down so many US helicopters and gunships in Vietnam, or the medium anti-aircraft guns. The only hope of physical survival for infantrymen facing such gunships is deep cover, and setting up flak ambushes, concealing their heavy machine guns until the very last minute once the trap is baited, blasting away, them moving their weapons around to enhance survival. Deep cover means embedding into civilian structures, and this will mean more civilian casualties caught in the crossfire. Ironically, the "humanitarian intervention" may thus get more civilians killed, than if Moammar had been allowed to put down his relatively small local rebellion in the first place.
In one news story Hilary Clinton vaguely mentions preparing for a "humanitarian disaster" - a hint perhaps that the Cabal will pull out all the stops, with augmented aerial attacks, then try to blame Mommar's troops for the collateral damage. It has already launched over 400 missiles, and has unmanned drone aircraft overhead 24/7 armed with more ordnance, not to mention jets constantly attacking. Things might get even uglier.
Hopefully Moammar can negotiate local ceasefires and work out the necessary negotiations with his own people, to determined their own future, without the foreign interference whose hidden agenda is to grasp more resources. If that future includes Moammar, well then let Libyans themselves decide, not be dictated to by a foreign Cabal.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Hey Zarahan, hope Moammar is reading this. Or maybe just send him a text message. When he survives--just send him the bill for consultancy services.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Monkey:
quote:Ok. There's an olympic swimmer taking a walk down by the river. He sees a guy in there drowning. He rescues him. Do you say the swimmer only did this for the reward/publicity? Or would you say it was a humanitarian act?
You are naive Monkey. Usually its the West as "olympic swimmer" that has thrown the guy in the river hoping he would drown. The Olympic swimmer[the West] would only rush to save the drowning man if he discovers that the man is drowning with a lot of diamonds and gold hidden on his body.
Just read some serious history and you will get the point.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ok. Explain Kosovo then. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the Kosovans, we were defending, were mainly Muslim, and the Serbs, the aggressors, were mainly Christian. Where was the motivation there, apart from it being the right thing to do?
If the whole world is controlled by Israel, which appears to be the mantra you guys are chanting, why would the West spend billions of pounds defending the Muslim people?
Where was the land grab? Where was the oil? Where is the colonisation? Doesn't quite fit in with the conspiracy theory, does it.
I suggest you don't just read some history, but actually think about it too.
I could also question the foundations upon which your belief that the world is controlled by Jews is built. Given that the world turned their backs whilst 6,000,000 Jews were exterminated during WWII (though we did steal land from the Arabs to give to them to salve our consciences - this I concur with). But of course, to try to discuss these issues would be futile. Because you don't believe it ever happened. It doesn't fit in with your hypothesis.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
There will be times, though, when our safety is not directly threatened, but our interests and our values are. - Obama.
This should alleviate any confusion about what constitutes the issue of "safety" and what constitutes "interests" that are measured against the "need for action".
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Just pretend the word "values" isn't there - exactly what I'm talking about - skipping along, picking out words that suit and ignoring those that don't.
If you do that with a book, you'll get a very different story.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
What is there to "pretend", when anybody with half a brain cell cannot confuse this in any shape or form:
It’s true that America cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. And given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. - Obama, March 28.
...on the heels of which, the above statement was made. To try to misconstrue this as a matter of the U.S.'s safety, is to be stupid beyond description.
As for values, sure: one is upholding "values" by supposedly turning a blind to other atrocities no less worse, while claiming to be concerned about and intervening for "humanitarian" reasons in highly selective cases. What sort of upholding of values is that?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Says Lawrence Vance:
Wouldn’t a Bullet Be Cheaper?
The war in Libya has cost the Pentagon $550 million so far. And as of Monday, the U.S. had launched 192 long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles at a cost of $1 to $1.5 million each. Although I advocate nonintervention, wouldn’t it have been cheaper and easier to bribe a Libyan to take out his leader with a single bullet?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@Exporer I accept the last point. I do find the "because we can" argument a little tiresome myself. But like I said, and no one's answering. If it's all about I, me, mine - explain Kosovo.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Humanitarian bombing is part of a historical process. It is embedded in military planning.
The Libyan “humanitarian bombing” campaign is an integral part of military strategy which consists in destroying the country’s civilian infrastructure. It is modelled on previous humanitarian bombing endeavors including the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia and the 2003 military campaign against Iraq.
When Yugoslavia was bombed in 1999, bridges, power plants, schools and hospitals were identified as “legitimate military targets” selected by NATO’s Combined Air Operations Centre (CAOC) in Vicenza, Italy and carefully “validated prior to the pilot launching his strike.” The same procedure is being applied to Libya: military and civilian targets are validated in advance. The pilot is not always informed as to the precise nature of the target.
In 1999, the children’s hospital located in the embassy area was the object of air attacks. It had been singled out by military planners as a strategic target.
NATO acknowledged that they had done it, but to “save the lives” of the newly borne, they did not target the section of the hospital where the babies were residing, instead they targeted the building which housed the power generator, which meant no more power for the incubators, which meant the entire hospital was for all sakes and purposes destroyed and many of the children died.
I visited that hospital, one year after the bombing in June 2000 and saw with my own eyes how they did it with utmost accuracy. These are war crimes using the most advanced military technology. The so-called “smart bombs”.
In Yugoslavia, the civilian economy was the target: hospitals, airports, government buildings, manufacturing, infrastructure, not to mention 17th century churches and the country’s historical and cultural heritage.
The diabolical objective of triggering an environmental catastrophe in the Danube river basin was also on the drawing board. NATO targeted the Pancevo petrochemical plant near Belgrade. The objective was no only to disable the plant but also to trigger an environmental catastrophe. How did they do it?
“A thermal imager from a spy satellite or an aircraft can detect infrared radiation emitted from any object situated on the petrochemical plant and convert its readings into a high-resolution video or snap picture. … In the words of a Pentagon spokesman, the U2 “snaps a picture from very high altitude, beams it back in what we call a reach-back, to the States where it is very quickly analyzed”. And from there, “the right targeting data” is relayed to the CAOC in Vincenza which then “passes [it] on to people in the cockpit”.
The “smart bombs” were not dumb; they went where they were told to go. NATO had scrupulously singled out the containers, tanks and reservoirs, which still contained toxic materials. According to the petrochemical plant director, NATO did not hit a single empty container: “This was not accidental; they chose to hit those that were full and these chemicals spilled into the canal leading to the Danube“. … When the smart bombs hit their lethal target at Pancevo (see photos below), noxious fluids and fumes were released into the atmosphere, water and soil. “More than one thousand tons of ethylene dichloride spilled from the Pancevo petrochemical complex into the Danube [through the canal which links the plant to the river]. Over a thousand tons of natrium hydroxide were spilled from the Pancevo petrochemical complex. Nearly 1,000 tons of hydrogen chloride spilled from Pancevo into the Danube River” (Michel Chossudovsky, NATO Willfully)
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
I'm not going to go over the Kosovo thing with you again. Been through that several pages ago, and I never got through to you then. I don't think I'm going to get through to you now. I am set on not getting sidetracked from the topic at hand: Libya!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@ VW spambot Jeese - did you never learn to talk? Did you go straight from the womb to copy and paste
@ Explorer. Don't recall that at all. Do recall you getting all defensive and throwing your toys out your pram with a lot of naughty words like a kid having a paddy, but explanation of how Kosovo fits into your theory? Didn't happen that I saw.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"When the smart bombs hit their lethal target, noxious fluids and fumes were released into the atmosphere, water and soil."
For this reason alone, any sensible person should oppose the bombing of Libya.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
The international forces commander is truly a tactician. He ceased bombing runs on the Sirte front for 2 days. This resulted in the revolutionaries retreat and Qadaffii forces advance. His tactic flushed out Qadaffi forces from Sirte. Their advance left them in wide open territory (between sirte and ras lanuf), they're paying the price now.
Good move by the 3 star Canadian General. Patient man.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
@ Explorer. Don't recall that at all. Do recall you getting all defensive and throwing your toys out your pram with a lot of naughty words like a kid having a paddy, but explanation of how Kosovo fits into your theory? Didn't happen that I saw.
Do you then also recall that you were a bitching pussy, hard of understanding? Or did you manage to block that out of your head, as the education on Kosovo.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "When the smart bombs hit their lethal target, noxious fluids and fumes were released into the atmosphere, water and soil."
For this reason alone, any sensible person should oppose the bombing of Libya.
Weak. Let's not get into pollution, shall we.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
@ Explorer. Don't recall that at all. Do recall you getting all defensive and throwing your toys out your pram with a lot of naughty words like a kid having a paddy, but explanation of how Kosovo fits into your theory? Didn't happen that I saw.
Do you then also recall that you were a bitching pussy, hard of understanding? Or did you manage to block that out of your head, as the education on Kosovo.
Yup, that was pretty much how it started last time. Then you delved deeper and deeper sifting through the turds of your somewhat limited vocabulary to create a little distraction to your really not having an answer on Kosovo.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Has Sirte fallen into rebel hands yet?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "When the smart bombs hit their lethal target, noxious fluids and fumes were released into the atmosphere, water and soil."
For this reason alone, any sensible person should oppose the bombing of Libya.
Weak. Let's not get into pollution, shall we.
VW wants the west to pull out and Libya to bury itself, because she is a bona fide, 100% Muslim hater. She just doesn't have the balls to say so. Hiding under the environment umbrella. Pathetic.
Good luck in the hereafter VW. For all your pomp and ceremony, aint a Christian bone in your body.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
monkey clit, the problem with your trogolodyte head, is that when people tell you things, it goes right through your airhead and past through the other ear. It is futile to try to make anything stick, and be digested like normal human beings do -- allow the brain to process things. Well, what to do, when you don't have a brain to process anything?!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
See. Insult after insult. Explanations? Not a one.
I expected better, Explorer. I expected better.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Frankly, I do not expect any progress from you, little pumpkin. This is why I'm not going to rehash the Kosovo matter with you. Block your ear on one end, and try to get this into your head: I'm not going to get sidetracked on the ongoing topic!
Squeal however much you want, it ain't happening. Distraction is futile.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Obama can tell people like you point blank, that there they are going in to economically loot the Libyans, and you will still insist on defending gobbledygook that it is "humanitarian", LOL.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Although I despise Islam as a political ideology, I definately don't hate Arabs and Muslims. Of course I don't expect a bigot like you to understand the difference.
I was against the war in Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and I am now against the war in Libya. You are delusioned to think that dropping hundreds of bombs on Lybia won't have environmental consequences for Libya and the wider region. The last thing the world needs today is more environmental pollution considering what's going on in Japan.
"After the "Shock and Awe" campaign in Iraq in 2003, very fine particles of depleted uranium were captured with larger sand and dust particles in filters in Britain. These particles had traveled in 7-9 days from Iraqi battlefields as far as 2400 miles away. The radiation measured in the atmosphere quadrupled within a few weeks after the beginning of the 2003 campaign, and at one of the five monitoring locations, the levels required two official alerts to the British Environment Agency."
"Within nine days of the start of the Iraq war on March 19, 2003, higher levels of uranium were picked up on five sites in Berkshire. - London Times"
After the "Shock and Awe" campaign in Iraq in 2003, very fine particles of depleted uranium were captured with larger sand and dust particles in filters in Britain. These particles had traveled in 7-9 days from Iraqi battlefields as far as 2400 miles away. The radiation measured in the atmosphere quadrupled within a few weeks after the beginning of the 2003 campaign, and at one of the five monitoring locations, the levels required two official alerts to the British Environment Agency.
Within nine days of the start of the Iraq war on March 19, 2003, higher levels of uranium were picked up on five sites in Berkshire. - London Times
According to Dr. Chris Busby and Dr. Saoirse Morgan, who forced the British government to release the above information, "On the basis of the mean increase in uranium in air of about 500nBq/m3 we use respiration data to calculate that each person in the area inhaled some 23 million uranium particles of diameter 0.25 microns. As far as we know, this is the first evidence that uranium aerosols from battle use have been shown to travel so far." The military, essential partners in everything nuclear, have been playing with the nuclear fires on the battlefields and the stuff is getting back home. Typical they would not tell us commoners anything about it. Will they tell us when things get completely out of control in Japan?
The shattering truth of all this leads us to the conclusion that radiation travels with ease on the winds and the jet stream long, very long distances, so it's a big mistake to assume we're out of harm's way. Busby and Morgan made it perfectly clear that "the evidence from the present analysis is implicit in the results; i.e., the increases found clearly demonstrate that the uranium particles are capable of long-distance travel."
Busby and Morgan continue saying, "Despite many pieces of evidence that the uranium aerosols are long-lived in the environment and are able to travel considerable distances, this is the first evidence as far as we know, that they are able to travel thousands of miles. The distance traveled from Baghdad to Reading following the wind patterns implicit in the pressure systems at the time is about 2,500 miles. Although this transport may be hard to believe at first, the regular desert sand events that occur in the UK should teach us that the planet is not such a large place, and that with regard to certain long-lived atmospheric pollutants, no man is an island."
"DU dust-like particles can enter human bodies, and once taken into the body, they will become tens of millions times more hazardous. Newly released data indicate that low-level radiation is more likely to cause biochemical abnormalities than intensive high-level radiation. It is wrong to make light of the hazard of low-level radiation."
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@Explorer A lot of assumptions, but never much of a roadmap on offer as to how you arrived there.
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Although I despise Islam as a political ideology, I definately don't hate Arabs and Muslims. Of course I don't expect a bigot like you to understand the difference.
I was against the war in Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and I am now against the war in Libya.
Oh quit with the enviro BS. Hmm. You were against nato intervention in Kosovo but you claim not to hate Muslims. Hmm. Isn't that a little like saying, me, I really like Jews but we should never have got involved in WWII.
Not that that's why we did get involved anyway, but still.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
The Libyan “humanitarian bombing” campaign is an integral part of military strategy which consists in destroying the country’s civilian infrastructure. It is modelled on previous humanitarian bombing endeavors including the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia and the 2003 military campaign against Iraq.
Good point, good article.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Although I despise Islam as a political ideology, I definately don't hate Arabs and Muslims. Of course I don't expect a bigot like you to understand the difference.
I was against the war in Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and I am now against the war in Libya. You are delusioned to think that dropping hundreds of bombs on Lybia won't have environmental consequences for Libya and the wider region. The last thing the world needs today is more environmental pollution considering what's going on in Japan.
"After the "Shock and Awe" campaign in Iraq in 2003, very fine particles of depleted uranium were captured with larger sand and dust particles in filters in Britain. These particles had traveled in 7-9 days from Iraqi battlefields as far as 2400 miles away. The radiation measured in the atmosphere quadrupled within a few weeks after the beginning of the 2003 campaign, and at one of the five monitoring locations, the levels required two official alerts to the British Environment Agency."
"Within nine days of the start of the Iraq war on March 19, 2003, higher levels of uranium were picked up on five sites in Berkshire. - London Times"
After the "Shock and Awe" campaign in Iraq in 2003, very fine particles of depleted uranium were captured with larger sand and dust particles in filters in Britain. These particles had traveled in 7-9 days from Iraqi battlefields as far as 2400 miles away. The radiation measured in the atmosphere quadrupled within a few weeks after the beginning of the 2003 campaign, and at one of the five monitoring locations, the levels required two official alerts to the British Environment Agency.
Within nine days of the start of the Iraq war on March 19, 2003, higher levels of uranium were picked up on five sites in Berkshire. - London Times
According to Dr. Chris Busby and Dr. Saoirse Morgan, who forced the British government to release the above information, "On the basis of the mean increase in uranium in air of about 500nBq/m3 we use respiration data to calculate that each person in the area inhaled some 23 million uranium particles of diameter 0.25 microns. As far as we know, this is the first evidence that uranium aerosols from battle use have been shown to travel so far." The military, essential partners in everything nuclear, have been playing with the nuclear fires on the battlefields and the stuff is getting back home. Typical they would not tell us commoners anything about it. Will they tell us when things get completely out of control in Japan?
The shattering truth of all this leads us to the conclusion that radiation travels with ease on the winds and the jet stream long, very long distances, so it's a big mistake to assume we're out of harm's way. Busby and Morgan made it perfectly clear that "the evidence from the present analysis is implicit in the results; i.e., the increases found clearly demonstrate that the uranium particles are capable of long-distance travel."
Busby and Morgan continue saying, "Despite many pieces of evidence that the uranium aerosols are long-lived in the environment and are able to travel considerable distances, this is the first evidence as far as we know, that they are able to travel thousands of miles. The distance traveled from Baghdad to Reading following the wind patterns implicit in the pressure systems at the time is about 2,500 miles. Although this transport may be hard to believe at first, the regular desert sand events that occur in the UK should teach us that the planet is not such a large place, and that with regard to certain long-lived atmospheric pollutants, no man is an island."
"DU dust-like particles can enter human bodies, and once taken into the body, they will become tens of millions times more hazardous. Newly released data indicate that low-level radiation is more likely to cause biochemical abnormalities than intensive high-level radiation. It is wrong to make light of the hazard of low-level radiation."
Iraq's “shock and awe” campaign dropped more than 50,000 cruise missiles/bombs in a few weeks time, some of these bombs included the 21,000 LB MOAB (mother of all bombs). This information is in "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Kelin.
In Libya the number the US used in 2 weeks is 192 to date.
Edited:
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ok. Explain Kosovo then.
Your government armed and supported them so as to undermine Milosevic. It was all a farce. Read more, rant less.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ok. Explain Kosovo then.
Your government armed and supported them so as to undermine Milosevic. It was all a farce. Read more, rant less.
Why did they want to undermine him? Nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and what not?
Now don't go falling into the trap of banging on about communism because that was the US's silver bullet, not ours.
Don't try to patronise me. I refuse to take anyone whose favourite phrases are "STFU" and "LOL" seriously.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
ES needs a like button. Finally VW says something I can get behind.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Humanitarian bombing is part of a historical process. It is embedded in military planning.
The Libyan “humanitarian bombing” campaign is an integral part of military strategy which consists in destroying the country’s civilian infrastructure. It is modelled on previous humanitarian bombing endeavors including the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia and the 2003 military campaign against Iraq.
When Yugoslavia was bombed in 1999, bridges, power plants, schools and hospitals were identified as “legitimate military targets” selected by NATO’s Combined Air Operations Centre (CAOC) in Vicenza, Italy and carefully “validated prior to the pilot launching his strike.” The same procedure is being applied to Libya: military and civilian targets are validated in advance. The pilot is not always informed as to the precise nature of the target.
In 1999, the children’s hospital located in the embassy area was the object of air attacks. It had been singled out by military planners as a strategic target.
NATO acknowledged that they had done it, but to “save the lives” of the newly borne, they did not target the section of the hospital where the babies were residing, instead they targeted the building which housed the power generator, which meant no more power for the incubators, which meant the entire hospital was for all sakes and purposes destroyed and many of the children died.
I visited that hospital, one year after the bombing in June 2000 and saw with my own eyes how they did it with utmost accuracy. These are war crimes using the most advanced military technology. The so-called “smart bombs”.
In Yugoslavia, the civilian economy was the target: hospitals, airports, government buildings, manufacturing, infrastructure, not to mention 17th century churches and the country’s historical and cultural heritage.
The diabolical objective of triggering an environmental catastrophe in the Danube river basin was also on the drawing board. NATO targeted the Pancevo petrochemical plant near Belgrade. The objective was no only to disable the plant but also to trigger an environmental catastrophe. How did they do it?
“A thermal imager from a spy satellite or an aircraft can detect infrared radiation emitted from any object situated on the petrochemical plant and convert its readings into a high-resolution video or snap picture. … In the words of a Pentagon spokesman, the U2 “snaps a picture from very high altitude, beams it back in what we call a reach-back, to the States where it is very quickly analyzed”. And from there, “the right targeting data” is relayed to the CAOC in Vincenza which then “passes [it] on to people in the cockpit”.
The “smart bombs” were not dumb; they went where they were told to go. NATO had scrupulously singled out the containers, tanks and reservoirs, which still contained toxic materials. According to the petrochemical plant director, NATO did not hit a single empty container: “This was not accidental; they chose to hit those that were full and these chemicals spilled into the canal leading to the Danube“. … When the smart bombs hit their lethal target at Pancevo (see photos below), noxious fluids and fumes were released into the atmosphere, water and soil. “More than one thousand tons of ethylene dichloride spilled from the Pancevo petrochemical complex into the Danube [through the canal which links the plant to the river]. Over a thousand tons of natrium hydroxide were spilled from the Pancevo petrochemical complex. Nearly 1,000 tons of hydrogen chloride spilled from Pancevo into the Danube River” (Michel Chossudovsky, NATO Willfully)
Vwvw, this is exactly what the Euro/Arab League Cabal is going to do, as they desperately try to save face. Moammar has not run away according to cue, so they have to pull out all the stops. Your example of the Yugo campaign shows that so called "precision" weapons are no necessarily that at all. I would not be surprised if they arent already doing the above. They are not telling the public that the so called "humanitarian" mission may wind up costing, or maybe already has cost, MORE civilian deaths, than if Moammar had been allowed to put down his small local rebellion in the first place.
ANd it is not only from direct bombing. By arming their proxies on the ground and providing direct air support, supplies and encouragement they also are helping to cause perhaps MORE civilian deaths than if Moammar had been allowed to restore order. Note: I think he needs to do local ceasefires and implement a reform package, but that should be left up to native Libyans not foreigners. There is nothing in the concept of a ceasefire that demands his removal, except the demand of the Cabal and their anointed proxies. What about the civilians who SUPPORT Moammar? Don't they have a voice too in this so called better "democratic" solution they claim to be seeking?
One NATO general talked a few days ago of Sirte being a "command and control" center- a whole city of over 100,000. The Cabal will grow more ruthless ints its air, and proxy ground attacks as its agenda keeps being thwarted. If the whole objective is to "prevent civilian deaths" why does the cabal keep ratcheting up and encouraging more war?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Why did they want to undermine him? Nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and what not?
The ethnic cleansing line was propaganda, it was a civil war, forced on the region by your government. Please take my advice earlier. I doubt you will though. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Hypocritical "human rights" leader calls for Kadaffi to not use land mines, but has nothing to say about US/NATO high explosives or fragmentation munitions in urban areas.
A new element also entered the military campaign on Wednesday when a prominent human rights watchdog urged Colonel Qaddafi’s forces to abandon the alleged use of landmines, outlawed in many parts of the world.
In a statement from Benghazi on Wednesday, Human Rights Watch, based in New York, said Colonel Qaddafi’s forces have laid both antipersonnel and antivehicle mines.
“Libya should immediately stop using antipersonnel mines, which most of the world banned years ago,” said Peter Bouckaert, the emergencies director at Human Rights Watch. “Qaddafi’s forces should ensure that mines of every type that already have been laid are cleared as soon as possible to avoid civilian casualties.”
The statement said two dozen antivehicle mines and three dozen antipersonnel mines had been found in the coastal town of Ajdabiya, now in rebel hands, after government forces held it from March 17 to March 27. Authorities in Tripoli had no immediate comment on the statement.
^What a bunch of sheer crap. Landmines are used by most armies in the world regardless of paper agreements on their use. They have not been put in mothballs. The US military uses Claymore anti-personnel mines for example, and has NOT ratified treaties or agreed to various international conventions banning landmines. Do you think if US Special Forces established a base in Libya that they would not use mines as part of normal base defense?
How come the "concerned" Human Rights Watch has not called for the US or NATO to cease use of such weapons? and why doesn't his "concern" extend to the use of high explosive and frag munitions by Euro-Cabal planes in urban areas?
And what "new element" has been introduced according to the NY Times, and why should the govt in Tripoli "have comment" to make about this bogus "human rights" red herring? And why doesn't the human rights leader call for the rebels to cease popping artillery and mortar rounds into built up civilian areas?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The US/NATO/Arab League cabal is using heavy munition strikes on Libya. Your claim is bogus, as the NYTimes article below using the US military's own figures show. Over 200 precision guided munitions, along with the missile strikes. And that's what they are only telling us about publicly.
-------------------------------------
quote:
"From the air, the United States is supplying much more firepower than any other country. The allies have fired nearly 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles since the campaign started on March 19, all but 7 from the United States. The United States has flown about 370 attack missions, and its allied partners have flown a similar number, but the Americans have dropped 455 precision-guided munitions compared with 147 from other coalition members.
March 28, 2011 U.S. Gives Its Air Power Expansive Role in Libya -------------------------------
quote: Originally posted by Exiiled: Iraq's “shock and awe” campaign dropped more than 50,000 cruise missiles/bombs in a few weeks time, some of these bombs included the 21,000 LB MOAB (mother of all bombs). This information is in "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Kelin.
In Libya the number the US used in 2 weeks is 192 to date.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth: he says 'it's not about regime change' then he demands Kadaffi leave. Which is it, forked tongue? And did airstrikes dry up because EuroCabal was afraid of "bending" UN Resolution too much or because Kadaffi's patient urban-based defence is not giving them the easy targets of the early days? --------------------------------
The reasons for the lack of support yesterday were unclear, though they followed a confusing speech in which President Barack Obama said international action here was not about “regime change” while also insisting that Qaddafi must leave power.
The UN mandate to “protect civilians” had been interpreted fairly expansively in its first week, with Qaddafi’s tanks destroyed in clearly defensive positions around Ajdabiya. But at least for a day, the mission appeared to have shifted.
Qaddafi certainly has more support in his hometown of Sirte than in Ajdabiya, where most of the population appeared to be in open rebellion against his troops, and it could be that the US or some of its NATO allies decided that assisting a rebel assault on that town would be bending the UN resolution to the point of breaking.
Obama's confusion shows his naivete in rushing the US into the setup of the Arab League and Euro Union. HE contradicts himself within the same speech.
As for claimed "restraint' by Euro-cabal forces Kadaffi's smarter urban-based defence strategy is no longer giving them easy "turkey shoot" targets. There is nothing "unclear" about the temporary tapering off in airstrikes at all. The Cabal also wants to obscure the fact of civilian collateral damage and divert negative world opinion on their civil war involvement - that has not only bent but broken the original "no fly" mandate beyond credibility.
Stymied, the Euro-Cabal will be even more desperate to save face. Moammar needs to continue his patient defence strategy- embed deep in strategic areas and let the rebels come to you before unloading on them. Don't give the Cabal easy targets from the air. Counterattack with small, mobile, agile task forces that can disguise themselves as they move into position, and can quickly deliver a heavy volume of firepower before dispersing to reform and embed again someplace else.
Such small-force counterattacks were used successfully by the VC/PAVN forces against the Americans in Vietnam, via the numerous sapper assaults after the Tet Offensive. Indeed one historian calls one VC/PAVN sapper attack on US Firebase Maryann in 1971, the U.S. Army's "most blatant and humiliating defeat in Vietnam."
And there is nothing at all that says the Euro-Cabal has to be involved if Moammar negotiates local cease fires in various areas. If they are so concerned about civilians why are they urging on rebel forces and arming them, and providing massive air support? They themselves are promoting warfare in Libya. Moammar should be allowed to come up with a reform package, and with the help (if requested) of others like the African Union, be allowed to negotiate his own arrangements and concessions with the rebels on the ground. Dictatorial commands to "leave" just shows the arrogance of the Euro-Cabal.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
How the hell does Moammar "stop attacks against civilians" if the Euro-Cabal itself keeps arming insurgents, urging them on and providing free flying artillery? The rebels themselves are attacking civilians who want nothing to do with them, or who support Moammar. And the fiction that the Obama, Cameron and the rest of the Cabal is "considering" arming rebels is laughable. The Cabal has already done so, and its anointed golden boys are failing.
Libyan Rebels Forced Into Retreat Near Sirte as Obama Considers Direct Aid
Libyan rebels retreated under fire from Muammar Qaddafi’s troops as U.S. President Barack Obama and U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron said they may consider sending arms to the opposition forces. “There’s little indication that Qaddafi’s forces were driven back by the rebels,” Nate Hughes, director of military analysis at the Austin, Texas-based geopolitical advisory firm Stratfor, said in a telephone interview. “The rebels are no match for Qaddafi’s forces.” Libyan Advance
Qaddafi’s advance shows he retains military capacity after almost two weeks of U.S.-led bombing that has targeted his air defenses, armor and army installations. In London, leaders of the anti-Qaddafi coalition pledged yesterday to continue military action against Libya until he complies with United Nations resolutions demanding an end to attacks on civilians. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The Hypocritical Euro-Cabal will not even follow its own UN resolution. The UN Resolution embargoes weapons shipments to Libya, yet here is Obama authorizing shipments of arms to the rebels, something they have ALREADY been doing. WHat outright hypocrisy. They keep citing "UN resolution" this and that, while violating it themselves.
But tis' to be expected from the Cabal and its enablers. The resignation of the Libyan foreign minister too is not surprising- trimming his sails to possible winds. Of course. Moammar can hold out for one or two years though, if willing to sacrifice, despite the Cabal's bombardment. The fatal disadvantage is that he is not situated like PAVN in Vietnam- lacking large manpower resources, lacking generous outside suppliers like Russia and China, and hampered with Libya's desert terrain that makes air interdiction easy. If willing to go down fighting he can destroy oil facilities and dump crude into the MEditerranean, while waging grinding urban and guerilla warfare. But it may not be worth the cost for him - already an old man.
President Obama Authorizes Covert Help for Libyan Rebels
Head of House Intel Committee Says Arming Unknown Rebels May Be a Mistake
By JAKE TAPPER, JON KARL and RUSSELL GOLDMAN March 30, 2011 President Obama has a signed a secret presidential finding authorizing covert operations to aid the effort in Libya where rebels are in full retreat despite air support from U.S. and allied forces, a source tells ABC News. The presidential finding discusses a number of ways to help the opposition to Moammar Gadhafi, authorizing some assistance now and setting up a legal framework for more robust activities in the future.
The finding does not direct covert operatives to provide arms to the rebels immediately, although it does prepare for such a contingency and other contingencies should the president decide to go down that road in the future.
The White House press office issued a statement saying it does not comment on intelligence matters. Those wary of arming the Libyan opposition cite several reservations.
The U.N. resolution that authorized airstrikes also embargoes weapon shipments to Libya. But Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has suggested that the embargo on weapons likely applies only to those sold to the government.
^The Cabal has ALREADY been arming the rebels in violation of their own UN Resolution, but their anointed proxies, the "representatives of the people" are disorganized. What this so-called "authorization" may mean is that the Cabal will be introducing more ground troops covertly, to direct airstrikes in more specific detail, and said ground troops will bring their own sniper, artillery, attack helicopter and other assets while preserving "deniability". In Vietnam PAVN stood up to such Special Forces Western troops, defeating them on a number of occasions in Laos and South Vietnam. The same can be done in Libya with a patient urban warfare strategy.
With resolute defence it will take regular Western forces to make any real headway. Moammar however, lacks troops of PAVN's hard-nosed quality and organization, plus the terrain is working against him, and he does not have fresh resources flowing in from generous outside allies. He is handicapped in the long term, while forbidden from negotiating his own reform and concession package on the ground with his own people, by the Cabal. They have handcuffed him while not even following their own "Resolution".
Still the Cabal may find victory a bitter taste. After Moamar, a guerilla insurgency as in Iraq may well develop, sucking the US into yet another costly Mid East venture, and the "humanitarian objectives" will be nothing of the sort as contiued fighting in years to come causes a much larger number of civilian casualties than if Moammar was allowed to put down hisinternal rebellion. And Al Qaeda will have gained fresh supplies, arms and manpower and a better base in Libya to attack Americans. Naturally, terrorists will be seeking revenge on Western targets too in the years to come, bringing fresh attacks to America and Europe. Let Obama and his "girl power" trio rejoice for now- it will be a bitter triumph.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth: he says 'it's not about regime change' then he demands Kadaffi leave. Which is it, forked tongue?
Obama's double speak is meant for the public consumption, ostensibly by the walking-dead saps out there who are easily duped by it. These are the same characters who are fully brainwashed that this whole affair is about some sudden western "humanitarian" concern for Libyan people.
It has finally come out in the US propaganda outlets [aka CNN, Fox new, MBC, etc], that Obama has in fact signed a request to get rid off Gaddafi.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Libya's foreign minister Musa Kusa and 2 other Libyan ministers avoid becoming potential cell mates with Qadaffi by defecting.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
These are the same sort of characters who rush to the "Opposition" corner, to save their own neck, having enjoyed and taken part in every endeavor Gaddafi had executed up to this point, and then the movement (Opposition) is then branded in the so-called "west" with heading the country towards a "revolution".
I guess it is a "revolution" against thyself, in Musa Kusa's and his ilk's case. Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
''It has finally come out in the US propaganda outlets [aka CNN, Fox new, MBC, etc], that Obama has in fact signed a request to get rid off Gaddafi.''
And he's probably hoping it will happen real soon because I beleve he's bitten off more than he can chew on this one. And if he has signed a 'request' then that means the cia will be in action real soon as the news a few hours ago said these guys are already on the ground snooping around.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
They have already been on the ground arming their proxies. The Obama "finding" to order "assistance" is merely a fig leaf farce. Exactly how "ceasefires" will be negotiated when the 'Coalition' is egging on insurgents in the civil war, and providing them with massive air support to attack beggars the imagination. It seems a very curious way to be "protecting" civilians for "humanitarian" purposes, when you are arming one set of civilians and sending them forth to kill other civilians, or conduct attacks that will get other civilians killed. The mendacious "Coalition" claim to be concerned about "making Khadaffi stop attacking civilians" is laced with sheer hypocrisy
Moammar's regime lacks the hard-nosed dedication of Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap, and lacks quality troops like PAVN regulars or VC Main Force. And he lacks a friendly outside supplier -the Arab League and surrounding countries like Chad, Egypt, Tunisia or Algeria too poor or too afraid to do anything for him. And the open desert terrain makes for easy flying against him. Playing with a bad hand he has done well despite unfavorable odds.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan, So how was the Algerian war against the French won. The French bombed and bombed, tortured and tortured but in the end they lost.
Exiled, Those guys defect because they end up living pampered lives in the West by being appointed to soft foundation posts here and there. And who knows he may have been bribed with money and arrangements made for himself and his family. As FM his decision must have taken weeks of negotiation with the Euro-cabal bribers. Let's see where he's going to live and who will pay his bills and find a house for him.
Rank opportunism!
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Protecting the Enemy in Libya?
As the war in Libya continues, and as the anti-Gaddafi opposition suffers serious setbacks, it is becoming more obvious that the success of the rebels is inextricably dependent on the military might of the NATO-led coalition’s forces. Yet U.S. intelligence regarding the composition of the rebellion already paints a grim and ominous picture: that the anti-Gaddafi insurgency is fortified with militant Islamists and even al-Qaeda-linked operatives who were formerly in the business of killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. CIA agents are only now being sent in to survey the extent of this influence....
BRUSSELS (AP) — NATO assumed command of all air operations over Libya early Thursday, taking over from the U.S., which had been eager to be rid that responsibility.
Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the transition was completed at 0600GMT (2 a.m. EDT) Thursday, giving NATO sole responsibility for all aerial and naval operations in the region....
If they're reporting in the news that agents are going in now, you can bet your bottom dollar they've been in there for days, or weeks.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Zarahan, So how was the Algerian war against the French won. The French bombed and bombed, tortured and tortured but in the end they lost.
Well, Obama can claim "victory" if Kadaffi leaves, and some sort of replacement regime arises. The exact nature of the claimed "victory" of course will remain to be seen. I forsee Moammar throwing in the towel eventually, one way or another, because the flat desert terrain of Libya (easy for air attack) and lack of outside support, not to mention the quality of his forces, is working against him. In the short term he can hold out for a year, maybe two if his people fight with resolution. I don't think they will put out that kind of effort- compared to say PAVN in Vietnam, prepared to fight 10, 15, 20 years if need be.
It is what happens after is the key. A guerilla war complete with the usual bombings, IEDs, etc as in Iraq could develop sucking the US into yet another drawn out Middle East affair. Al Qaeda could get an improved foothold in the Maghreb for attacking American and Western targets. In fact the press is making new noises about Al Qaeda involvement giving the Cabal new talking points for the intervention. They will now say "we knew all along" etc etc. Right....
In the long run, there may well be more civilian casualties from Obama's War than if Moammar had been allowed to put down the local rebellion in the first place. So yeah, Obama and the Cabal will be able to proclaim "victory" at some short or medium term point, like Bush declared "mission accomplished" in Iraq. But it is far from over.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ Obama answers to Israel, and Israel cares nothing about civilian casualties, not even Jewish ones. In fact, it appears that Obama's Grandparent's are Jewish, so....
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Protecting the Enemy in Libya?
As the war in Libya continues, and as the anti-Gaddafi opposition suffers serious setbacks, it is becoming more obvious that the success of the rebels is inextricably dependent on the military might of the NATO-led coalition’s forces. Yet U.S. intelligence regarding the composition of the rebellion already paints a grim and ominous picture: that the anti-Gaddafi insurgency is fortified with militant Islamists and even al-Qaeda-linked operatives who were formerly in the business of killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. CIA agents are only now being sent in to survey the extent of this influence....
^^Good article. This is what Moammar was saying all along and it was pooh-poohed by the Cabal and its supportive press. Indeed Moammar suppressed Islamic jihadists some years ago. They may be only now looking into Al Qaeda influence in more detail because it is embarassing them and makes Obama look naive, and can't be so readily denied. In essence as your article says:
"If Obama has ignorantly stumbled into a war in which he contributes American power and treasure to an al-Qaeda takeover of a nation, it would be a nightmare of catastrophic proportions. Even if the anti-Gaddafi rebels aren’t reporting directly to Osama bin Laden, they are certainly drawing on the valuable experience of jihadist fighters who cut their teeth battling NATO troops in Afghanistan or coalition troops in Iraq. Libyans formed one of the largest groups of foreign fighters who battled with the American-led coalition in Iraq, and many of them are now battling Gaddafi, while American, British and Canadian pilots risk their lives to make it easier for these former insurgents to advance. Gaddafi, for all of his atrocious and unforgivable terrorist acts, did serve at least one strategic purpose for the West — he fought al-Qaeda’s influence in Libya (and initially blamed them for the protests against him) because al-Qaeda would like to see Gaddafi gone."
^^In so, then "Obama's "rush to war" may actually be helping US enemies. But most likely Special Forces have already been on the ground helping to target airstrikes. The press reports about "no boots on the ground" are simply US Govt spin. To get really pinpoint airstrikes you need ground controllers and observers, people "lasing" targets -aiming lasers that tie into the smart bomb targeting systems of aircraft overhead. This is what the Special Forces did a lot of during the 2001 Afghanistan operation.
BRUSSELS (AP) — NATO assumed command of all air operations over Libya early Thursday, taking over from the U.S., which had been eager to be rid that responsibility.
^^Essentially a paper exercise so Obama can talk up "the international effort." Nothing much has really changed. Most of the planes and missiles are American, as are the Special forces troops, as are the key commanders. The "hand over to NATO" is sheer window dressing. However it may point to the increasing influence of the Europeans in the future, with America as errand boy and/or muscle man to implement their manipulations.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
As the article below claims, the CIA has already been assisting rebel forces in Libya weeks before the so-called "no fly" Resolution. Have they really? And if it is a covert matter why are they leaking to the press? Could it be that they rushed into war, got egg on their faces when their proxies had to flee, and now are trying to save face, and "spin" their miscalculations- as if to say: "look we already have been "vetting" rebels and "assisting" them. We gots this... Really now? It seems a bit all too convenient..
WASHINGTON — The Central Intelligence Agency has inserted clandestine operatives into Libya to gather intelligence for military airstrikes and to contact and vet the beleaguered rebels battling Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces, according to American officials. While President Obama has insisted that no American military ground troops participate in the Libyan campaign, small groups of C.I.A. operatives have been working in Libya for several weeks as part of a shadow force of Westerners that the Obama administration hopes can help bleed Colonel Qaddafi’s military, the officials said.
In addition to the C.I.A. presence, composed of an unknown number of Americans who had worked at the spy agency’s station in Tripoli and others who arrived more recently, current and former British officials said that dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya. The British operatives have been directing airstrikes from British jets and gathering intelligence about the whereabouts of Libyan government tank columns, artillery pieces and missile installations, the officials said.
American officials hope that similar information gathered by American intelligence officers — including the location of Colonel Qaddafi’s munitions depots and the clusters of government troops inside towns — might help weaken Libya’s military enough to encourage defections within its ranks.
In addition, the American spies are meeting with rebels to try to fill in gaps in understanding who their leaders are and the allegiances of the groups opposed to Colonel Qaddafi, said United States government officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the classified nature of the activities. American officials cautioned, though, that the Western operatives were not directing the actions of rebel forces. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan,
Algeria is not opposed Gaddafi and he could get help there. Chad and Niger and Mali--their northern borders--could easily allow for flow of resources to MG.
Again, as I said, Algeria defeated France in a brutal war of independence. The French all the technological resources on their side but in the end they lost. The Algerian terrain is the same as that of Libya.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: If they're reporting in the news that agents are going in now, you can bet your bottom dollar they've been in there for days, or weeks.
The only sensible thing you've posted on ES so far. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Zarahan,
Algeria is not opposed Gaddafi and he could get help there. Chad and Niger and Mali--their northern borders--could easily allow for flow of resources to MG.
Again, as I said, Algeria defeated France in a brutal war of independence. The French all the technological resources on their side but in the end they lost. The Algerian terrain is the same as that of Libya.
Well there is a difference between lending real material support and talk. Sure those nations are close to Libya but I doubt they are sending much aid. Maybe they are doing something under the table but how much and how effective? Kadaffi's forces badly need anti-aircraft capability for example, like the Soviet hand held SA-7 'Strela' missiles that brought down several US choppers and gunships in Vietnam.
Russia and China have good quality updated versions but they are no longer supporting Third World forces like in the old days of the Cold War. They want European Union trade and will play along with whatever game in on tap as long as their core interests aren't threatened. Moammar's men also need fresh munitions, mobile artillery, and fresh manpower. I don't see how he can rely on his tribal faithful for a very long time. "People's Volunteers" flowing in from Algeria, Tunisia etc would definitely help.
In the open desert terrain it is hard to bring up these resources in quantity, because they are easy targets for airpower. Under the table smuggling is the next option, but whether this can come in enough volume to replace losses over time is unknown. Besides the Arab League will persuade Algeria and Tunisia not to help Moammar. Poor Niger has few resources. Chad probably will not be willing to help given Moammar's past interference. In fact, in the 1980s, Chadian fighters routed over 20,000 Libyan troops from that country, even though the Libyans had tanks, jets, helicopters, heavy artillery etc. The quality of Libyan troops is open to question.
If I remember lamin, in the Algerian War the French made a good deal of headway against the rebels using a policy of ruthless terror and counter-terror, including massive torture, imprisonment, targeted killings, and remorseless search and destroy operations. A number of histories say that they had crushed major rebel operations militarily by the time of De Gaulle, and successfully sealed the borders at Tunisia and Morocco and cut off the insurgents from much outside support.
Course such military successes could not totally stamp out guerrilla action and the attritional struggle eventually caused the French to seek a political solution. This might be Libya's future. Even if Kadaffi exits, the US may be bogged down once again in another long Middle East guerrilla struggle. This is what the "Coalition" fears a great deal.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
I had dinner tonight in an Arab restuarant with my ex husband.
Literally all the talk was about the hydro-electric dam in Ethiopia.
Not a single Arab could understand why the Ethopians would chose to side with Israel and build a resource which harms Arab nations down river instead of building a Nuclear power plant.
I would not doubt most of the "Africans" posting support for their mercenery brothers in Libya are reacting in part due to the unfortunate decision to build a hydro-electric dam in Ethopia.
Nassar marched his army into Ethopia the last time a dam was built, and I suppose Africans are readying themselves for a similar effort again.
Yet all the time I am told by East Africans that Egypt is African and that they are brothers. Yet this is exactly the kind of **** that encourages Egyptians to define themselves as Arab not Africans.
Gaddafi will fall, and North Africa will limit the student and business visas for Africans. Expect total evaporation of cooperation.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^The Egyptian Army would get its clock cleaned if it messed with Ethiopia. And cooperation between Israel and Ethiopia is a long-standing thing, way back to Haile Selassie days. Egypt should not complain, since Egypt itself signed a peace treaty with Israel and cooperates with it in several technical areas. SO why are Egyptians supposedly "upset" about Ethiopia and Israel?
And a dam need not necessarily hurt those down river. Agreements can be negotiated to share water and electricity- happens all the time. Exactly how are Egyptians allegedly "upset"? Can you cite any articles? papers?
Exactly what the fall of Ghadaffi has to do with visas is unclear. Why would visas be limited?
Moammar will likely go sooner or later - I shed no tears knowing his murderous record, but he can create a long stalemate using the proper tactics, and with enough resolution. He can hit back for an extended time, no matter how much airpower they bring in. It would be nice if he can come up with a serious reform package to win over disaffected elements, and clean up various abuses of his regime, but that is up to the Libyan people to arrange between themselves.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates Says Arming And Training Of Libya Rebels Should Be Role Of Other Countries, Not U.S.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. should avoid developing a closer relationship with Libyan opposition forces, defense leaders said Thursday, telling an often hostile Congress that foreign nations must now take over airstrike responsibilities and any effort to train and equip the rebels.
With the U.S. role in Libya at a turning point, the next critical decision is how, if at all, the U.S. chooses to support the opposition forces, particularly in the face of the ongoing budget crisis at home. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he is opposed to arming the rebels, a step his boss President Barack Obama has not ruled out.
Gates and Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said it was time to turn the bulk of the conflict over to NATO.
The U.S. turned over control of the military operation to NATO Thursday, just hours before Gates and Mullen addressed Congress.
"The question of what kind of assistance to provide to the opposition is clearly the next step in terms of non-lethal or weapons," Gates told senators. "All the members of the coalition are thinking about that at this point, but as with our government, no decisions have been made."
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Well, Obama can claim "victory" if Kadaffi leaves, and some sort of replacement regime arises. The exact nature of the claimed "victory" of course will remain to be seen. I forsee Moammar throwing in the towel eventually, one way or another, because the flat desert terrain of Libya (easy for air attack) and lack of outside support, not to mention the quality of his forces, is working against him. In the short term he can hold out for a year, maybe two if his people fight with resolution. I don't think they will put out that kind of effort- compared to say PAVN in Vietnam, prepared to fight 10, 15, 20 years if need be.
What makes you think Libyans are not capable of fighting for 10+ years? They've done it fiercely before, against Italian forces with rudimentary weapons by comparison. The only scenario under which I see Gaddafi folding, is if all of his administrative associates abandoned him. Short of this, look for a fight till death. Even Mubarak wouldn't have resigned, were it not for pressure of the Egyptian military.
Posted by Mugisha (Member # 6729) on :
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
What makes you think Libyans are not capable of fighting for 10+ years? They've done it fiercely before, against Italian forces with rudimentary weapons by comparison. The only scenario under which I see Gaddafi folding, is if all of his administrative associates abandoned him. Short of this, look for a fight till death. Even Mubarak wouldn't have resigned, were it not for pressure of the Egyptian military.
A fair point. I am basing that on how his strong forces in the 1980s were routed by the Chadians, the promise of stepped up Cabal air attacks and SF troops on the ground, and the abandonment of his associates under the pressure, via flight or internal coup. But from the looks of it- he may have some maneuvering room. News reports claim the rebels want a cease fire due to the US withdrawing jets. Could be a Cabal head fake or prospects for a cease fire? -----------------
Libyan Rebels Seek Cease-Fire After U.S. Vows to Withdraw Jets April 01, 2011, 7:28 AM EDT
By Thomas Penny and Patrick Donahue
April 1 (Bloomberg) -- Libya’s opposition called for a cease-fire after the U.S. said it’s withdrawing aircraft used to attack Muammar Qaddafi’s forces following adverse weather that prevented strikes allowing Libyan loyalists to push back rebels. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
The Case Against the Iraq War
... by President Obama. Here are some quotes:
"I don’t oppose all wars. … What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.
I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military is a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history"
Lew Rockwell writes: Is This How the Libyan Revolt Was Financed?
The Fed “loaned” at least $5 billion to a bank in Libya.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
RE: Egypt vs Ethiopia
Ethiopia Military Facts:
* Air Force – Obsolete - 2 dozen Mig 21, 1 dozen Mig 23s, 1 dozen su-27, few su-25, * Navy (landlocked country) They don't have one * Army - 200,000 men with obsolete tanks T54/T55. * 500 Million Annual Military Budget
Egypt Military Facts:
* Best Air Force in Africa including 220 F-16, hundreds of other fighters (some ok e.g mirage 2000) * Navy - several US frigates, nothing too impressive, but impressive for African standards * Army 375,000 men with 1000 M-1 Abrams Tanks who train with the US annually. * 6 Billion Annual Military Budget
Conclusion:
Ethiopia has an obsolete Air-Force, an outdated army whose tanks were first introduced during the WWII era. Egypt can literally obliterate Ethiopia from the air. Ethiopia does not have the means to defend against an air bombardment, nor does it have the means to attack Egypt. To fully understand just how weak Ethiopia is, study the Ethiopia-Eritrea war. They lost 20% of their Army to a very weak Eritrea. The USA sought to it that Egypt became the beast of Africa.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: RE: Egypt vs Ethiopia
Ethiopia Military Facts:
* Air Force – Obsolete - 2 dozen Mig 21, 1 dozen Mig 23s, 1 dozen su-27, few su-25, * Navy (landlocked country) They don't have one * Army - 200,000 men with obsolete tanks T54/T55. * 500 Million Annual Military Budget
Egypt Military Facts:
* Best Air Force in Africa including 220 F-16, hundreds of other fighters (some ok e.g mirage 2000) * Navy - several US frigates, nothing too impressive, but impressive for African standards * Army 375,000 men with 1000 M-1 Abrams Tanks who train with the US annually. * 6 Billion Annual Military Budget
Conclusion:
Ethiopia has an obsolete Air-Force, an outdated army whose tanks were first introduced during the WWII era. Egypt can literally obliterate Ethiopia from the air. Ethiopia does not have the means to defend against an air bombardment, nor does it have the means to attack Egypt. To fully understand just how weak Ethiopia is, study the Ethiopia-Eritrea war. They lost 20% of their Army to a very weak Eritrea. The USA sought to it that Egypt became the beast of Africa.
^^You forget that if the Egyptian Army were to invade Ethiopia it would be at the end of a very long supply line, easy pickings for interdiction, and destruction piecemeal in Ethiopia's landscape. This is somewhat like what happened to a Khadaffi army in Chad during the late 1980s. Despite having modern fighter jets, bombers, tanks, artillery and mechanized transport, an army of 20,000 Libyans were routed by lightly armed Chadian forces that possessed nothing heavier than Toyota pickup trucks- the "technicals" armed with machine guns and recoilless rifles. And the Chadian force was not that much bigger than the Libyan army, some 10,000 regulars and 20k tribal militia. QUOTE:
"In contrast, Chadian forces possessed nothing more sophisticated than a handful of older Western armored cars, and mostly relied on Toyota pick-up trucks mounting crew-served infantry weapons. The Chadians had no tanks, no APCs, no artillery, no air force, no infantry weapons heavier than the Milan antitank guided missile, and only the complicated and ineffectual Redeye shoulder-launched surface-to-air missile (SAM) for air defence, What's more, the Chadians did not operate their weaponry very well. Nevertheless, an army of as many as 20,000 Libyans was demolished by 10,000 Chadian regulars and 20,000 tribal militia during eight months of fighting."[27] -- Edgerton, Africa's Armies 2002
Over an extended struggle, obsolete Ethiopian aircraft don't mean much. Egypt can't "obliterate" Ethiopia.. lol.. What it can do is pound certain targets, with some short term success, but the key battles will be in extended combat in the mountainous landscape of Ethiopia, with very good chances for a grinding stalemate inflicted on the Egyptians or piecemeal destruction via mobile and guerrilla warfare, as they are strangled at the end of long supply lines. Simple air bombardment cannot defeat a resolute opponent using good tactics. Moammar is a case in point. Despite hundreds of ballistic missiles (non-nuke) and hundreds of sorties, all the power of the West has not dislodged him.
You say the Ethiopians did poorly against the Eritreans. That is true, but only as far as the Eritrean War of Independence -one side of the story. In the second Eritrean-Ethiopian war, the Ethiopians did much better, even though they lacked the generous Soviet support of past years. In fact, [b]"By the end of May 2000, Ethiopia occupied about a quarter of Eritrea's territory, displacing 650,000 people[49] and destroying key components of Eritrea's infrastructure." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian-Eritrean_War#Chronology
As of 2010, Ethiopian troops still control a good slice of Eritrean territory. So much for your notion of Ethiopian weakness via the Eritrean example.
As for Egypt, it has a vast army with much modern equipment, but when it has faced resolute opponents with modern arms, its performance has not been uniformly impressive. Against Israel its failures are well known. The main exception is the excellent Crossing operation, but even that fizzled out despite huge advantages in manpower and equipment over the Israelis. Still the Crossing is spoken of with respect by even some Western military analysts. An invasion of distant Ethiopia however, rather than an operation right on the doorstep, would be an entirely different matter.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Lew Rockwell writes: Is This How the Libyan Revolt Was Financed?
The Fed “loaned” at least $5 billion to a bank in Libya.
^Very interesting. So you think its possible that such loans could have been a vehicle to provide financing of the rebels? But why then would the loans go to an entity partially controlled by the Libyan state? Unless other controllers were manipulating the entity as well?
Some on the web speak of a deeper agenda behind the Cabal's air attack- involving so-called "banksta" financial manipulators. Not sure what they mean. Why would the Fed float 73 loans? Just a routine financial transaction? Do you have any other info on Libya's oil connection with the Europeans? Did Khadaffi do something recently that denied or stymied attempts at Western resource control?
--------------------------------------------------------------- Libya-Owned Bank Got 73 Loans From Fed Window After Lehman
April 01, 2011, 12:53 PM EDT April 1 (Bloomberg) -- Arab Banking Corp., the lender part- owned by the Central Bank of Libya, used a New York branch to get 73 loans from the U.S. Federal Reserve in the 18 months after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. collapsed.
The bank, then 29 percent-owned by the Libyan state, had aggregate borrowings in that period of $35 billion -- while the largest single loan amount outstanding was $1.2 billion in July 2009, according to Fed data released yesterday. In October 2008, when lending to financial institutions by the central bank’s so- called discount window peaked at $111 billion, Arab Banking took repeated loans totaling more than $2 billion. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
FROM a 2004 conservative Think Tank Report below: Libya has been battling Islamists for years, and even has been cooperating with the US against Al Qaeda. Why then is the US helping arm such Islamists among the proxies, and providing them free supplies, training and air strikes?
In recent years Qadhafi's rule has been challenged not only by the LIFG, but also by other Islamist organizations of varying strength. The Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamic Liberation Party have drawn the attention of some observers in part due to their ability to tap existing centers of discontent within Libyan society--in particular the deteriorating state of the economy, rising inflation, and sporadic shortages of basic goods. The Brotherhood's relative popularity in Libya is in large part due to its strengths witnessed elsewhere in the Arab world: solid social welfare programs and a strong anti-corruption stance help maintain the group's popularity.
Similar to the LIFG is the Islamic Martyrs' Movement, another indigenous militant Libyan Islamist organization.11 Like the LIFG, the Islamic Martyrs' Movement has waged an ongoing, low-intensity conflict with the regime. While little is publicly known, both organizations are believed to be composed of Libyan veterans of the Afghan campaign against the Soviet Union,12 and receive funding from and support through "private donations, various Islamic nongovernmental organizations, and criminal acts."13 This fact can help explain Tripoli's desire to cooperate with Washington in the war on terror as Qadhafi identifies al Qaeda and its affiliates as direct threats to his rule." Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Qaddafi has already previously put down rebellions by Islamic militants in Benghazi according to American military AND Congressional reports, and numerous Islamic fighters in Iraq killing Americans have been from Libya. So why is Obama arming people who have been only too happy to kill Americans elsewhere?
"Documents captured by the US military from Al Qaeda in Iraq show that eastern Libya – and especially the city of Derna – provided per capita far more foreign fighters in Iraq from August 2006 to August 2007 than anywhere else in the world.
Today, no one knows how many Libyan veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan are taking up the fight against Qaddafi. And while Islamists are reported to be among the most active on the fluctuating frontline, they are a small minority among the mosaic of fighters who earlier this week made huge territorial gains, backed by US and French-led allied airstrikes, only to lose the ground in panicked retreat Tuesday.
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) in early 2007 publicly supported the insurgency in Iraq, calling on all “Muslim peoples” to wage jihad there. The LIFG declared in November 2007 that it had joined Al Qaeda.
The documents captured in 2007 in Sinjar, Iraq, give details of 595 foreign fighters in Iraq who crossed from Syria and listed a nationality, according to a late 2007 report by the Combating Terrorism Center (CTC) at West Point, which first published the Sinjar documents. Most of the fighters (41 percent) were from Saudi Arabia. Libya was second, accounting for 18.8 percent.
But when tallied on a per capita basis, the documents – known as the Sinjar Records – show that Libya accounted for virtually twice the number of insurgents as came from Saudi Arabia. And of the half of Libyans who listed their intended “work” in Iraq, more than 85 percent – the highest of any nation – said they wanted to be suicide bombers, according to the documents. Both Derna and Benghazi have long been associated with Islamic militancy in Libya, in particular for an uprising by Islamist organizations in the mid-1990s,” notes the CTC report. “The Libyan uprisings became extraordinarily violent,” it reads. “Qaddafi used helicopter gunships in Benghazi, cut telephone, electricity, and water supplies to Derna and famously claimed that the militants ‘deserve to die without trial, like dogs.’ ”
In recent years, Qaddafi has largely made peace with Libya’s homegrown Islamist groups, and released a number from prison after they denounced violence and any affiliation with Al Qaeda.
In a dialogue overseen by Qaddafi’s son Saif al-Islam, some 200 LIFG members were freed, including many top figures who issued recantations in 2009 and foreswore violence, according to a mid-March report by the US Congressional Research Service." Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Metinoot,
Who cares what Arabs think? But if Egyptians define themselves as Arabs--then they should just get out of Africa. We know that a large number of them are intruders and settlers on African soil, so they should know where they originated. Not difficult to return home, isn't it?
Africans will be relieved of these settlers who have long desecrated African soil with their nonsensical religion and silly customs.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Gaddafi forces storm Misrata, rebels offer truce
Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's forces stormed the western rebel outpost of Misrata with tanks and artillery on Friday, a rebel spokesman said, while insurgents marshaled defenses in their eastern heartland.
A rebel leader speaking after talks with a U.N. envoy in Benghazi offered a ceasefire on condition Gaddafi left Libya and his forces withdrew from cities now under government control. It was unclear if the offer was part of broader diplomatic moves to end a conflict that appears deadlocked on the military front.
Rebels speaking from Misrata said Gaddafi's forces had brought their superior firepower to bear on the insurgents' last western enclave with an intense bombardment.
"They used tanks, rocket-propelled grenades, mortar rounds and other projectiles to hit the city today. It was random and very intense bombardment," the spokesman, called Sami, told Reuters by telephone. "We no longer recognize the place. The destruction cannot be described."
Gaddafi, who has ruled Libya since taking power in a coup in 1969, describes the rebels as terrorists and Western agents. He accuses NATO led air forces, operating under a U.N. mandate, of killing huge numbers of civilians in bombing raids.
Civilian deaths haunt the calculations of coalition governments. Any sign of mounting casualties could shatter a fragile consensus between Western and Arab capitals who first called for the U.N. mandate to create a no-fly zone and protect the civilian population.
BBC television quoted a Libyan doctor as saying a coalition air strike had killed seven civilians, mostly children, and wounded another 25 near the oil town of Brega on Wednesday.
The doctor said he had been called to a village 15 km (9 miles) from Brega after the strike hit a pro-Gaddafi military convoy. A trailer containing ammunition exploded between two homes, killing girls and young men aged between 12 and 20, the BBC said on Friday. The report has not been confirmed.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Some of this press labeling is laughable. What exactly is a "pro-Gadaffi convoy"? If they are clearly military they are a legitimate target. But if they are civilians who support Gadaffi, why are they being attacked? Don't they count too as Libyans or is it only the anointed proxies of the "Coalition" that count? What if the "pro-Gadaffi convoy" was a bunch of peaceful demonstrators in buses and cars? Why should they be attacked? Aren't they "civilians" too?
Libyans have a right to support who they want, without being dictated to by self-styled "Coalition" leaders.
Isn't the "UN mandate" of the 'Coalition' supposed to be to protect civilians? Why then is the Euro/US cabal bombing civilians that it supposedly has a mission to "protect"? What if the rebels attack civilians who do not agree with their violent methods. Will the self-styled "Coalition" protect these people? Why are they arming an insurgent force that itself is threatening, coercing and attacking those they disagree with?
Based on these contradictions, Gadaffi might well argue that it is HIS forces that are the real protector of civilians, because the rebels {a) are going after people who support him, and (b) to consolidate their power, said rebels have to coerce or intimidate neutral civilians.
Based on what is going on in Libya, Ghadaffi would be a fool to ease up on attacks against the rebels unless he got solid concessions in return, such as a cessation of Coalition bombing. They want a breather so they can establish protected enclaves and in turn intimidate and coerce neutral people into supporting them, as well as attack civilians who disagree with them. In the meantime, inside their protected enclaves, the "Coalition" will be arming and training more rebels and planning more airstrikes. What kind of fool do they take the Colonel for?
Ghadaffi needs to keep using his "hugging" tactics, blending in among civilians and fighting close to the Cabal's proxies to neutralize Euro/US airpower. The rebels also demand that he stay out of the cities. He would be a fool to. He will need every bit of built-up urban landscape to defend and shelter his troops from deadly gunships and helicopters, plus more accurate targeting by CIA and Special Forces enemies on the ground. What, he is supposed to just roll tanks and equipment up on the open roads and pray when the planes start rolling in?
And there is no reason why Gadaffi himself cant present a package of concessions and reforms that can lay the basis for peace or at least a ceasefire. If for example regime officials have been unjust on various matters then he can fire the officals, make restitution, correct the abuses and implement other reforms. It is a Libyan matter to be solved by Libyans. Why does Obama or Szarkozy or any other outsider else need to be involved in dictating that internal dialog or process? And the Colonel also has a legitimate security concern in keeping Islamists out. He has already had to battle such Islamists in the past, and now he is supposed to roll over just cause Obama says so?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
RE: Egypt vs Ethiopia
Ethiopia Military Facts:
* Air Force – Obsolete - 2 dozen Mig 21, 1 dozen Mig 23s, 1 dozen su-27, few su-25, * Navy (landlocked country) They don't have one * Army - 200,000 men with obsolete tanks T54/T55. * 500 Million Annual Military Budget
Egypt Military Facts:
* Best Air Force in Africa including 220 F-16, hundreds of other fighters (some ok e.g mirage 2000) * Navy - several US frigates, nothing too impressive, but impressive for African standards * Army 375,000 men with 1000 M-1 Abrams Tanks who train with the US annually. * 6 Billion Annual Military Budget
Conclusion:
Ethiopia has an obsolete Air-Force, an outdated army whose tanks were first introduced during the WWII era. Egypt can literally obliterate Ethiopia from the air. Ethiopia does not have the means to defend against an air bombardment, nor does it have the means to attack Egypt. To fully understand just how weak Ethiopia is, study the Ethiopia-Eritrea war. They lost 20% of their Army to a very weak Eritrea. The USA sought to it that Egypt became the beast of Africa.
I highly doubt Egypt beats South Africa in air force equipment, naval or what have you. The latter even has an extensive self-reliant arms and weapons industry, which exports to markets in Europe, USA, Canada, etc. In that regard, it can hardly be considered the "best".
As a matter of fact, Ethiopia had confronted Egypt before, in modern times. Guess which side won? Hint: it wasn't the Egyptians.
Eritreans fighting Ethiopians is essentially like Ethiopians fighting Ethiopians. Lord knows that there is much that can be criticized about Ethiopians, but when it comes armed combat, it would be unwise to underestimate them. Ethiopia has a long track record of winning wars, be they from Europe, down the Nile Valley, the African Horn itself or right across the Red Sea.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: RE: Egypt vs Ethiopia
Ethiopia Military Facts:
* Air Force – Obsolete - 2 dozen Mig 21, 1 dozen Mig 23s, 1 dozen su-27, few su-25, * Navy (landlocked country) They don't have one * Army - 200,000 men with obsolete tanks T54/T55. * 500 Million Annual Military Budget
Egypt Military Facts:
* Best Air Force in Africa including 220 F-16, hundreds of other fighters (some ok e.g mirage 2000) * Navy - several US frigates, nothing too impressive, but impressive for African standards * Army 375,000 men with 1000 M-1 Abrams Tanks who train with the US annually. * 6 Billion Annual Military Budget
Conclusion:
Ethiopia has an obsolete Air-Force, an outdated army whose tanks were first introduced during the WWII era. Egypt can literally obliterate Ethiopia from the air. Ethiopia does not have the means to defend against an air bombardment, nor does it have the means to attack Egypt. To fully understand just how weak Ethiopia is, study the Ethiopia-Eritrea war. They lost 20% of their Army to a very weak Eritrea. The USA sought to it that Egypt became the beast of Africa.
^^You forget that if the Egyptian Army were to invade Ethiopia it would be at the end of a very long supply line, easy pickings for interdiction, and destruction piecemeal in Ethiopia's landscape. This is somewhat like what happened to a Khadaffi army in Chad during the late 1980s. Despite having modern fighter jets, bombers, tanks, artillery and mechanized transport, an army of 20,000 Libyans were routed by lightly armed Chadian forces that possessed nothing heavier than Toyota pickup trucks- the "technicals" armed with machine guns and recoilless rifles. And the Chadian force was not that much bigger than the Libyan army, some 10,000 regulars and 20k tribal militia. QUOTE:
"In contrast, Chadian forces possessed nothing more sophisticated than a handful of older Western armored cars, and mostly relied on Toyota pick-up trucks mounting crew-served infantry weapons. The Chadians had no tanks, no APCs, no artillery, no air force, no infantry weapons heavier than the Milan antitank guided missile, and only the complicated and ineffectual Redeye shoulder-launched surface-to-air missile (SAM) for air defence, What's more, the Chadians did not operate their weaponry very well. Nevertheless, an army of as many as 20,000 Libyans was demolished by 10,000 Chadian regulars and 20,000 tribal militia during eight months of fighting."[27] -- Edgerton, Africa's Armies 2002
Over an extended struggle, obsolete Ethiopian aircraft don't mean much. Egypt can't "obliterate" Ethiopia.. lol.. What it can do is pound certain targets, with some short term success, but the key battles will be in extended combat in the mountainous landscape of Ethiopia, with very good chances for a grinding stalemate inflicted on the Egyptians or piecemeal destruction via mobile and guerrilla warfare, as they are strangled at the end of long supply lines. Simple air bombardment cannot defeat a resolute opponent using good tactics. Moammar is a case in point. Despite hundreds of ballistic missiles (non-nuke) and hundreds of sorties, all the power of the West has not dislodged him.
You say the Ethiopians did poorly against the Eritreans. That is true, but only as far as the Eritrean War of Independence -one side of the story. In the second Eritrean-Ethiopian war, the Ethiopians did much better, even though they lacked the generous Soviet support of past years. In fact, [b]"By the end of May 2000, Ethiopia occupied about a quarter of Eritrea's territory, displacing 650,000 people[49] and destroying key components of Eritrea's infrastructure." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian-Eritrean_War#Chronology
As of 2010, Ethiopian troops still control a good slice of Eritrean territory. So much for your notion of Ethiopian weakness via the Eritrean example.
As for Egypt, it has a vast army with much modern equipment, but when it has faced resolute opponents with modern arms, its performance has not been uniformly impressive. Against Israel its failures are well known. The main exception is the excellent Crossing operation, but even that fizzled out despite huge advantages in manpower and equipment over the Israelis. Still the Crossing is spoken of with respect by even some Western military analysts. An invasion of distant Ethiopia however, rather than an operation right on the doorstep, would be an entirely different matter.
Egypt's military was designed to;
1.Contain its population 2.Protect its border 3.Protect its livelihood (the Nile)
#3, which we're discussing here does not require an army invasion. Punishing air strikes, ala US style will suffice. I specifically didn't mention an invasion because it is not probable. Anyone cynical of #3, ask yourselves why does Egypt have aerial refueling units.
As for Libya-Chad. Lets not mention Libya because Egypt more than embarrased them in 1977, nothing special here. Libya's army was/is intentionally weak.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
RE: Egypt vs Ethiopia
Ethiopia Military Facts:
* Air Force – Obsolete - 2 dozen Mig 21, 1 dozen Mig 23s, 1 dozen su-27, few su-25, * Navy (landlocked country) They don't have one * Army - 200,000 men with obsolete tanks T54/T55. * 500 Million Annual Military Budget
Egypt Military Facts:
* Best Air Force in Africa including 220 F-16, hundreds of other fighters (some ok e.g mirage 2000) * Navy - several US frigates, nothing too impressive, but impressive for African standards * Army 375,000 men with 1000 M-1 Abrams Tanks who train with the US annually. * 6 Billion Annual Military Budget
Conclusion:
Ethiopia has an obsolete Air-Force, an outdated army whose tanks were first introduced during the WWII era. Egypt can literally obliterate Ethiopia from the air. Ethiopia does not have the means to defend against an air bombardment, nor does it have the means to attack Egypt. To fully understand just how weak Ethiopia is, study the Ethiopia-Eritrea war. They lost 20% of their Army to a very weak Eritrea. The USA sought to it that Egypt became the beast of Africa.
I highly doubt Egypt beats South Africa in air force equipment, naval or what have you. The latter even has an extensive self-reliant arms and weapons industry, which exports to markets in Europe, USA, Canada, etc. In that regard, it can hardly be considered the "best".
As a matter of fact, Ethiopia had confronted Egypt before, in modern times. Guess which side won? Hint: it wasn't the Egyptians.
Eritreans fighting Ethiopians is essentially like Ethiopians fighting Ethiopians. Lord knows that there is much that can be criticized about Ethiopians, but when it comes armed combat, it would be unwise to underestimate them. Ethiopia has a long track record of winning wars, be they from Europe, down the Nile Valley, the African Horn itself or right across the Red Sea.
South African Air Force does not even come close to Egypt's. Check out military websites and compare their aerial hardware. Not even close.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
I already know about South African military equipment et al. Demonstrate it to me how Egypt beats south Africa in military ware.
List to me how many indigenous military hardware Egypt develops vs. how many indigenous military hardware South Africa develops. Let's see if your theory holds water.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I already know about South African military equipment et al. Demonstrate it to me how Egypt beats south Africa in military ware.
List to me how many indigenous military hardware Egypt develops vs. how many indigenous military hardware South Africa develops. Let's see if your theory holds water.
The point I made was very simple - Egypt has the best air force in all of Africa. Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
Actually, Both Israel and South Africa are Stolen African properties. Israel has the best Air Force in Africa because it is essentially, an American Air force, while South Africa comes in second because they are merely an extension of Israel. Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, Libya are really insignificant from a military standpoint, since the West and Israel strictly control the quality and number of their war machines. We sell these countries inferior weapons, that we know we will destroy or allow to go obsolete in a few years in the future.
Next to Israel, Iran is the strongest African country militarily, since of all, they are the only ones capable of designing, manufacturing and building their own.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
The point I made was very simple - Egypt has the best air force in all of Africa.
Your point is meaningless if it lacks fact. Anybody can say anything; that doesn't make it a fact.
Ps: Let me just give you a hint, how much of a military infrastructure south Africa has. South African weapons are being used by the American, British and Canadian armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. What Egyptian weapon is being used by these countries in Iraq and Afghanistan? This one example in itself should put into perspective how much of an advancement South Africa has over Egypt in military ware.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
'Punishing' air strikes would mean little if Ethiopian troops control the ground in the zone of conflict and are able to dig in and set up their own Anti-aircraft systems. Egyptian air refueling capability likewise would mean little in this context. Sure planes could be refueled for faster turnaround strikes, but this also means they make more frequent targets for dug-in AA troops, with their own guns and missiles. And you also forget that Egypt does not have anywhere the US/NATO aerial capability. A few dozen sorties would make little impression on disciplined, motivated ground troops.
And it is an open question whether Egypt has the best airforce in Africa. They may have the BIGGEST airforce, but a several wars with Israel show, what counts in that particular theatre is quality. Arab forces possessing massive numerical advantage and excellent, first-rank Soviet equipment have, with a few honorable exceptions, been repeatedly routed by much smaller Israeli forces.
Originally posted by Exilled: #3, which we're discussing here does not require an army invasion. Punishing air strikes, ala US style will suffice. I specifically didn't mention an invasion because it is not probable. Anyone cynical of #3, ask yourselves why does Egypt have aerial refueling units. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I already know about South African military equipment et al. Demonstrate it to me how Egypt beats south Africa in military ware.
List to me how many indigenous military hardware Egypt develops vs. how many indigenous military hardware South Africa develops. Let's see if your theory holds water.
The point I made was very simple - Egypt has the best air force in all of Africa.
you jackass, this is what you call a rational argument? lol
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Guys, guys, guys. Egypt has a VERY impressive army. In fact it has FOUR very impressive armies. The intention is that each is capable of fighting a whole war in it's own right. That's where the money goes... Well, that which isn't creamed off by the elite. OK, that's where a fair bit of the money goes.
For all Mubarak's failings as president, he had a damned impressive military career. Go read up on the Yom Kippur War. You think Israel runs the world? Well Egypt kicked their asses pretty convincingly. Where was the good old US of A then, hmm? I know you'll just ignore this because it doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theory. For those that can't quite get their head around it, here's a diagram:
Muat have missed something. Can't see they're doing any better or worse than at any other point in time.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
South Africa and Etheopia my eye.
A country's military strength can be gauged from its capacity to export surplus military hardware of local designs, but since you are such an "expert" on military strengths, maybe you can answer this, which Exilled couldn't:
South African weapons are being used by the American, British, Canadian, Swedish, UAE, Algerian, Brazilian, etc armed forces.
Name an Egyptian weapon that is being used by the British and American armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
South Africa and Etheopia my eye.
A country's military strength can be gauged from its capacity to export surplus military hardware of local designs, but since you are such an "expert" on military strengths, maybe you can answer this, which Exilled couldn't:
South African weapons are being used by the American, British, Canadian, Swedish, UAE, Algerian, Brazilian, etc armed forces.
Name an Egyptian weapon that is being used by the British and American armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan?
I invited you to visit military websites to compare South Africa Airforce assets and Egypt's Airforce assets.
Egypt is hands the best Air Force in all of Africa. This is free and public knowledge.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Guys, guys, guys. Egypt has a VERY impressive army. In fact it has FOUR very impressive armies. The intention is that each is capable of fighting a whole war in it's own right. That's where the money goes... Well, that which isn't creamed off by the elite. OK, that's where a fair bit of the money goes.
For all Mubarak's failings as president, he had a damned impressive military career. Go read up on the Yom Kippur War. You think Israel runs the world? Well Egypt kicked their asses pretty convincingly. Where was the good old US of A then, hmm? I know you'll just ignore this because it doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theory. For those that can't quite get their head around it, here's a diagram:
If Egypt has "FOUR VERY" impressive armies what are they? And if so impressive, why are they so often routed when facing Israel? In the Yom Kippur War it was really only the excellent Crossing performance that stands out for the Egyptians. In the aftermath they failed to hold off the Israelis despite a huge numerical advantage, plus Arab allies attacking on other fronts, and saw the 3rd Army trapped. It took a diplomatic bailout by the US and Soviets to save it from annihilation. Maybe it is you who needs to "read up" on the Yom Kippur War.
And your GLobalFirepower link merely gives numerical strenghts of national armies without saying anything about proficiency. Big numbers often don't mean much. The French Army outnumbered their GErman opponents during the Blitz of WwII, in both manpower, artillery and tanks and yet was demolished. Likewise Arab armies like Iraq, on paper "the fourth largest Army in the world", at the time of the 1991 Gulf War was quickly routed.
Originally posted by Exilled: I invited you to visit military websites to compare South Africa Airforce assets and Egypt's Airforce assets.
Egypt is hands the best Air Force in all of Africa. This is free and public knowledge.
All your link shows are paper strengths of national armies. This often means little. It is qualitative and other factors that are often most important, depending on the military situation. Explorer's question is one such qualitative indicator of proficiency in designing, developing and/or maintaining a military technology base. What information do you have re his query?
As is shown above, paper strengths often mean little. The Italian Army in WwII had far more manpower and equipment than the small Greek Army, including air superiority, and yet was fought to a stalemate by the Greeks. Mussolini needed the more proficient Germans to bail him out.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
BENGHAZI, Libya — A NATO airstrike intended to thwart Moammar Gadhafi’s forces killed 13 rebel fighters in eastern Libya instead, the opposition said Saturday, but they described it as an “unfortunate accident” and emphasized that it didn’t diminish their support for the international air campaign.
The rebels blamed the deaths and injuries on a mistake within their ranks.
“This unfortunate accident was a mistake that was caused by the rebels’ advance during the coalition’s attack,” said opposition spokesman Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga.
The attack highlighted the challenges the coalition faces in identifying targets without coordination with forces on the ground.
^^This is precisely why the Colonel needs to keep attacking the rebels, never letting up pressure. The more his forces "hug" or fight close to the rebels, using civilian guise if necessary, the more "friendly fire" will hit them.
Starting Sunday, no U.S. combat aircraft are to fly strike missions in Libya. Also falling silent on Sunday will be the initial workhorses of the military campaign: U.S. Navy destroyers and submarines that launched Tomahawk cruise missiles from the positions in the Mediterranean Sea.
The planes and naval vessels will be on standby in case NATO commanders decide their own forces cannot handle the mission on their own.
^^More bogus "coalition" statements: According to the NPR report below, US planes will "not be involved" in strike missions in Libya. Oh wow, like, this means a bit of "disengagement" right? THis ought to mollify Obama supporters, who are concerned about his war. But guess what suckers? The US planes are to be on "standby" - to be called in anytime by other "Coalition" partners, "if they can't handle" a mission. Right..... So they won't actually be involved see, but will be on flying overhead just in case on standby to get non-involved.. "I say Tex old chap, 'pro Ghadaffi' elements are escaping. Do be a bunter and come off standby will you, but I say be sure to remain 'non-involved' after you have bombed them old bean... Roight.. I'll write up the paperwork as another 'stand by to be non-involved' mission.." lmao.. ------------------------------------------
[b]Allies Face Risk of Stalemate as Libya Rebels Try to Hold Gains
April 02, 2011, 7:53 PM EDT
By Alison Fitzgerald and Walid el-Gabry
The allies are continuing military strikes and diplomatic pressure while trying to avoid a stalemate that might draw NATO members further into the six-week-old conflict.
No Ground Troops
U.S. and U.K. officials have pledged they won’t send ground troops into Libya to help the rebel forces. A spokesman for French President Nicolas Sarkozy said that country has no plans for ground forces in Libya, as the March 17 UN resolution adopting the no-fly zone didn’t provide for them.
U.S. and Egyptian special forces are training rebels in eastern Libya, Al Jazeera said, citing a rebel fighter. Egypt is supplying the rebels with heat-seeking Katyusha rockets, it reported yesterday. U.S. State Department Spokesman Noel Clay declined to comment on the report.
“We have no troops on the ground,” U.S. Defense Department spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Robert Ditchey said in an e-mail yesterday.
The U.K. Ministry of Defence said there are no plans at the moment to put ground troops into Libya.
The fact that "coalition" spokesmen keeps repeating the "no ground troops" mantra suggests that they are lying. In fact their own prior statements and actions show they are lying. If US Special Forces are training rebels, then, right there you have "troops on the ground." And to get more accurate targeting they hvae had, and will need more "troops on the ground" to help direct airstrikes. Yet in press account after press account, the media simply repeats the bogus line of "coalition" spokesmen and leaders without question. They know it is bogus yet keep repeating the "approved" line, without showing differing reports.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
South Africa Air Force is so weak that they only have 15 fighter aircraft - Yes 15 Swedish Fighter Jets Gripen C & D Class They are so weak, and not merely on paper as they only have 34 Combat pilots with a goal of eventually reaching 60.
Egypt's Air Force's backbone are 220 US F-16 fighter Jets. Their superior Air Force trains with the US Forces, is continuously upgraded and boasts:
240 US F-16 Fighter Jets 32 US F-4 Fighter Bombers 60 French Mirage 5 18 French Mirage 2000
This list doesn't include Russian and Chinese fighter jets. Also doesn't include AWACS, strong transport units, etc.
ht tp://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/Egyptian_Air_Force
Conclusion:
South Africa Air Force only has 15 fighter aircraft. South Africa Air Force is so weak they only have 34 combat pilots with a goal of eventually reaching 60. Egypt's Air force on the other hand has 220 F-16 Fighter jets and only the US, Israel and Turkey have more. The disproportionate superiority of Egypt Air Force is across the board and is not limited to Fighter Jets as they more quanity and superior Helicopters, Transport, etc.
P.S (to let it sink in) 15 Swedish Fighter Jets and 34 Combat Pilots. On paper, off paper, quality, quantity, honest, dishonest, realistic, delusional, don't matter how you cut it - South Africa has a very weak Air Force that can't hold a candle to Egypt's Air Force.
The arguement that South Africa has a military industry that builds hardware does not change the fact that Egypt Has The Best Air Force in All of Africa.
Nuff Ced Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^No one disputes the larger Egyptian airforce, but the key point is:
(a) Performance in an actual combat situation, such as if for example Ethiopian troops came under Egyptian aerial attack. Such air attacks would wreak some short term damage, but Ethiopian, troops dug into strong positions with their own anti-aircraft guns and missiles could well stymie that attack. The key is what the military objectives are. Impressive jet sorties ultimately don't mean much if your side fails to achieve its objective.
If for example Ethiopians troops were protecting a valley in their own country, they could make it a deadly flak trap from dug-in positions in, around, and in strategic spots some distance from the valley. This was the situaton in some engagements of the VIetnam War. PAVN set up traps, decoys and ambushes for US helicopters and gunships, that on occasion, shot several down. And they always had the option of melting away to return later. While gunships and helicopters might clear a particular jungle ridge on Tuesday, pAVN simply vanished into the hungle and returned on Monday, after the planes departed, to resume business. Time, terrain, morale, quality of fortifications, objectives etc etc all count on the military scales not merely strength numbers on paper.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Betsy Hiel is the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review Middle East correspondent and can be reached via e-mail.
By Betsy Hiel PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW Sunday, April 3, 2011
BENGHAZI, Libya — Western diplomats are trying to negotiate a cease-fire between pro- and anti-Gadhafi forces following a week of chaotic, seesaw battles.
An immediate halt to Libya's seven weeks of fighting seems unlikely, however, as both sides hold firm to opposing positions.
A bit of one-sided reporting in full article above. Did it ever occur to reporter Betsy Hiel that
the Coalition would be using seaports for more
than so-called "humanitarian" aid, but would also be bringing fresh manpower, weapons and munitions to arm their proxies on the ground? Now why on earth should any sane military commander allow his enemies to gain such a tactical advantage unmolested? Creation of an uncontested outlet to the sea for the rebels if not "neutral" at all in terms of helping civilians.. What it does is help CERTAIN favored civilians, the ones approved by the Coalition.
Did it ever occur to her that the rebels are attacking not only Khadaffi troops but civilians as well who do not share their goals? Or that said rebels, to create their zones of control, will need to coerce and intimidate people who do not agree with them?
Does Hiel ever question why a mission allegedly to "protect civilians" is in fact protecting only one favored set of civilians, the ones anointed by the Coalition? What about people who are neutral? or who don;t like the rebels? Aren't they civilians as well and deserve the same protection?
Does Hiel ever question why press reports keep speaking of "pro Ghadaffi" forces? What if these are peaceful civilians in a bus caravan or at a rally? Why should they be violently attacked for their political beliefs?
Did it ever occur to Hiel that when the US government says "no troops on the ground" that it is in fact lying- because US SPecial Forces are already on the ground training and supplying the rebels?
Did it ever occur to Hiel that the US is embroiled in a Civil War, arming one side to fight another, and trying to pass it all off as "humanitarian intervention"?
And note how Hiel quotes mostly rebels with their own "spin" on events, but rarely gives room for detailed replies by alternative or opposing interpretations? Doesn't the Libyan government have its own set of demands for a ceasefire? Why are these not being reported in detail if "both sides are holding firm?"
Has Hiel ever considered that Ghadaffi may have a legitimate security concern in battling Islamists among rebel ranks? Or that in years prior, Ghadaffi did in fact, in Benghazi and elsewhere, battle such Islamic militants?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
I invited you to visit military websites to compare South Africa Airforce assets and Egypt's Airforce assets.
Egypt is hands the best Air Force in all of Africa. This is free and public knowledge.
I invited you to answer a simple question that will test the validity of your post, but you couldn't handle it. It is also public knowledge that Egypt has nothing anywhere near the military infrastructure in South Africa. You just have to want to do minimum research, and put personal emotions aside.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
South Africa Air Force is so weak that they only have 15 fighter aircraft - Yes 15 Swedish Fighter Jets Gripen C & D Class They are so weak, and not merely on paper as they only have 34 Combat pilots with a goal of eventually reaching 60.
Egypt's Air Force's backbone are 220 US F-16 fighter Jets. Their superior Air Force trains with the US Forces, is continuously upgraded and boasts:
240 US F-16 Fighter Jets 32 US F-4 Fighter Bombers 60 French Mirage 5 18 French Mirage 2000
This list doesn't include Russian and Chinese fighter jets. Also doesn't include AWACS, strong transport units, etc.
ht tp://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/Egyptian_Air_Force
Conclusion:
South Africa Air Force only has 15 fighter aircraft. South Africa Air Force is so weak they only have 34 combat pilots with a goal of eventually reaching 60. Egypt's Air force on the other hand has 220 F-16 Fighter jets and only the US, Israel and Turkey have more. The disproportionate superiority of Egypt Air Force is across the board and is not limited to Fighter Jets as they more quanity and superior Helicopters, Transport, etc.
P.S (to let it sink in) 15 Swedish Fighter Jets and 34 Combat Pilots. On paper, off paper, quality, quantity, honest, dishonest, realistic, delusional, don't matter how you cut it - South Africa has a very weak Air Force that can't hold a candle to Egypt's Air Force.
The arguement that South Africa has a military industry that builds hardware does not change the fact that Egypt Has The Best Air Force in All of Africa.
Nuff Ced
No, you haven't said nearly half of enough. If you cared to do a little real research instead of just relying on wikipedia, you would have noted that nearly all of the machinery type you listed for Egypt, are actually produced and designed in south Africa. You would have also taken note that the South Africans are in the middle of upgrading their military equipment, as one of your meager wiki info suggests.
As a few mere examples, just to give you a wake up call, amongst well known South African military capacities, they have the infrastructure in place to convert heavy transport aircraft into drag & hose tankers, design EW suites for tanker aircraft and other transport aircraft, design transport aircraft (like airliners), design and produce critical components for transport aircraft, introduced the concept of the helmet mounted sighting system that is now a common place in airforces around the globe, design the latest generation helmet sight system for modern fighters like the Eurofighter and Gripen, design NATO interoperable pylons, submarine periscopes, EW suite and weapon systems, construct and design naval strike crafts along with a whole host of their components like cannons, missiles, radar and engines, design and produce helicopter gunships, design and produce armored personnel carriers, tanks, and a whole variety of mine-resistant vehicles used around the globe, design and produce unmanned aerial systems, have the latest design technologies for composite elements, new heat resistant, and bird impact-resistant components of aircrafts, design and produce one of the most advanced mobile gun systems like howitzers and tank turrets, aircraft navigations systems, black boxes and health & usage monitoring systems, flight simulators and pilot trainer systems, etc. These are just a few examples that immediately popped into mind with no effort at all. You'll be hard pressed to easily think of Egyptian equivalents. In fact, I challenge you to come up with Egyptian equivalents.
Not only does South Africa design and produce the examples of the just listed machinery, they actually export them. This is the true measure of military capacity, not headcount of aircraft and other hardware. Egypt imports pretty much all of the hardware you listed under their air-force; you can hardly call that military might. If the US were to stop supplying Egypt, they would be absolutely helpless, because much of their equipment is imported, or simply licence assembled copies. Likewise, the US can dump inferior weapons on Egypt, and there would be very little Egypt can do about it. South Africa actually produces these systems, and thus has fuller command on its military hardware. Get the difference, yet?
Your dismissal of the Gripen just goes to show how much of a rookie you really are, when it comes to understanding military issues. Aircraft platforms like the Gripen are customized according to the client's spending power and technological capacity. South Africa pretty designs all the important combat and EW suits for their Gripen, including NATO store pylons, and weapons. This makes their versions of the Gripen the most advanced of its type, and even more advanced than the Swedish counterparts.
I highly recommend that you do real research, and not the almost lazy peeping-into-wikipedia approach. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^No one disputes the larger Egyptian airforce, but the key point is:
(a) Performance in an actual combat situation, such as if for example Ethiopian troops came under Egyptian aerial attack. Such air attacks would wreak some short term damage, but Ethiopian, troops dug into strong positions with their own anti-aircraft guns and missiles could well stymie that attack. The key is what the military objectives are. Impressive jet sorties ultimately don't mean much if your side fails to achieve its objective.
If for example Ethiopians troops were protecting a valley in their own country, they could make it a deadly flak trap from dug-in positions in, around, and in strategic spots some distance from the valley. This was the situaton in some engagements of the VIetnam War. PAVN set up traps, decoys and ambushes for US helicopters and gunships, that on occasion, shot several down. And they always had the option of melting away to return later. While gunships and helicopters might clear a particular jungle ridge on Tuesday, pAVN simply vanished into the hungle and returned on Monday, after the planes departed, to resume business. Time, terrain, morale, quality of fortifications, objectives etc etc all count on the military scales not merely strength numbers on paper.
Exiiled is only naive because he/she hardly has a deep insight into the military track record of Ethiopia (w/without Eritrea). He/she dismisses them simply because they are not as well equipped as more wealthier economies.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
No, you haven't said nearly half of enough. If you cared to do a little real research instead of just relying on wikipedia, you would have noted that nearly all of the machinery type you listed for Egypt, are actually produced and designed in south Africa. You would have also taken note that the South Africans are in the middle of upgrading their military equipment, as one of your meager wiki info suggests.
Your argument that South Africa builds weapons does not disprove the fact that Egypt has a FAR SUPERIOR air force than South Africa.
No Denying Facts:
South Africa only has 34 Combat pilots. Repeat: South Africa only has 34 combat Pilots.
South Africa only has 15 Fighter aircraft. Repeat: South Africa only has 15 Fighter Aircraft.
Egypt has a backbone of 240 F-16 Fighter Jets. That train with US forces.
And No they don't make “nearly all of the machinery type you listed for Egypt”
This is April 2011. I repeat: This is April 2011
I challenge you to prove the statement you made about South Africa making "nearly all Egypt aircraft" The days when South Africa made fighter jets are LONG GONE. You seem found of reminiscing, here's a story titled "Back When South Africa Had Jet Fighters"
Nuf Ced Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Your argument that South Africa builds weapons does not disprove the fact that Egypt has a FAR SUPERIOR air force than South Africa.
To any clear-headed thinking person, my claim does prove that Egypt is IN FACT quite behind south Africa in military capacity, by many generations. Headcount of hardware is not a measure of military might, anyone with a common sense will tell. It is the ability to amass unique and internationally competitive military hardware. Egypt cannot have these, because much of its military equipment are point blank "imported". What part of that can't you understand? If overseas governments who supply Egypt become antagonistic with Egypt, and it is certainly possible, as seen in the case of Libya, and even Iraq, then Egypt would be in trouble. South Africa would not be in that same position, because quite simply, it has produced the capacity to internally build much of the weaponry that Egypt imports.
Should the US decide to stop granting weapons to Egypt, and cut military aid through funding, Egypt will be reduced to dust, because it is not as self reliant, as say South Africa is. You really do think like an unexperienced person, when it comes to discussing these issues.
quote:
No Denying Facts:
South Africa only has 34 Combat pilots. Repeat: South Africa only has 34 combat Pilots.
South Africa only has 15 Fighter aircraft. Repeat: South Africa only has 15 Fighter Aircraft.
Egypt has a backbone of 240 F-16 Fighter Jets. That train with US forces.
You can go on broken record mode, speaking to yourself on and on about stating "facts", but the value of those words remain in your mind only.
quote:
And No they don't make “nearly all of the machinery type you listed for Egypt”
Yes they do, I'd had listed them. They've come up with their own jet fighter, manned and unmanned aircraft designs, helicopter gunships, naval ships, a whole host of armored vehicles, store plyons that carry weapons, helmet-mounted sights, rockets and missiles, EW suites for transport aircraft, design authority in both civilian and military transport aircraft, design authority in critical components and EW suite for submarines, etc. South Africa is essentially self-reliant when it comes to military hardware; they have all the necessary infrastructure to build a lot of these hardware, in the event that overseas source dried up. Egypt will be as handicapped as a person with only a torso--no limbs. You are letting your romanticized imaginations of the real world get the better of you.
quote: I challenge you to prove the statement you made about South Africa making "nearly all Egypt aircraft"
Your challenge is frivolous, since 1) examples were already provided, and 2) you distorted what was actually said; this is what was said: The machinery "type" you listed under Egyptian airforce, meaning "jet fighters" et al., have been designed and produced in South Africa. All you need to do, is relieve yourself from being a couch potato and do minimal google research. Trust me, you won't have to try as hard as you would, if you were to do it with regards to Egypt, to verify that South Africa does in fact produce the equipment I listed earlier, and export them. Egypt is not in a position to have such an export infrastructure in military hardware, for reasons already stated. And so, it comes as no surprise that you will not find any Egyptian equipment being used in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. You will however, find South African designed and produced equipments in these theaters of conflict.
quote:
The days when South Africa made fighter jets are LONG GONE. You seem found of reminiscing, here's a story titled "Back When South Africa Had Jet Fighters"
You are daydreaming both about my motives and your understanding of South African capacity to produce fighter jets. Critical components of the Gripen, the Eurofighter, Airbus A300M, Hind and Rooivalk helicopter gunships, locally designed Super Pumas, etc, are designed and produced in that country. Production on the Gripen, Eurofighters, Airbus A300M and Hind helicopter gunships are for example, ongoing! South Africa carries design authorities on these products.
Egypt, if it produces any major military hardware, is only reduced to license assembly of imported components.
Do some research, and stamp out your ignorance on the subject.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
The UK made parts for the US space program. Does it mean we put a man on the moon?
What a dope.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Your argument that South Africa builds weapons does not disprove the fact that Egypt has a FAR SUPERIOR air force than South Africa.
To any clear-headed thinking person, my claim does prove that Egypt is IN FACT quite behind south Africa in military capacity, by many generations. Headcount of hardware is not a measure of military might, anyone with a common sense will tell. It is the ability to amass unique and internationally competitive military hardware. Egypt cannot have these, because much of its military equipment are point blank "imported". What part of that can't you understand? If overseas governments who supply Egypt become antagonistic with Egypt, and it is certainly possible, as seen in the case of Libya, and even Iraq, then Egypt would be in trouble. South Africa would not be in that same position, because quite simply, it has produced the capacity to internally build much of the weaponry that Egypt imports.
Should the US decide to stop granting weapons to Egypt, and cut military aid through funding, Egypt will be reduced to dust, because it is not as self reliant, as say South Africa is. You really do think like an unexperienced person, when it comes to discussing these issues.
quote:
No Denying Facts:
South Africa only has 34 Combat pilots. Repeat: South Africa only has 34 combat Pilots.
South Africa only has 15 Fighter aircraft. Repeat: South Africa only has 15 Fighter Aircraft.
Egypt has a backbone of 240 F-16 Fighter Jets. That train with US forces.
You can go on broken record mode, speaking to yourself on and on about stating "facts", but the value of those words remain in your mind only.
quote:
And No they don't make “nearly all of the machinery type you listed for Egypt”
Yes they do, I'd had listed them. They've come up with their own jet fighter, manned and unmanned aircraft designs, helicopter gunships, naval ships, a whole host of armored vehicles, store plyons that carry weapons, helmet-mounted sights, rockets and missiles, EW suites for transport aircraft, design authority in both civilian and military transport aircraft, design authority in critical components and EW suite for submarines, etc. South Africa is essentially self-reliant when it comes to military hardware; they have all the necessary infrastructure to build a lot of these hardware, in the event that overseas source dried up. Egypt will be as handicapped as a person with only a torso--no limbs. You are letting your romanticized imaginations of the real world get the better of you.
quote: I challenge you to prove the statement you made about South Africa making "nearly all Egypt aircraft"
Your challenge is frivolous, since 1) examples were already provided, and 2) you distorted what was actually said; this is what was said: The machinery "type" you listed under Egyptian airforce, meaning "jet fighters" et al., have been designed and produced in South Africa. All you need to do, is relieve yourself from being a couch potato and do minimal google research. Trust me, you won't have to try as hard as you would, if you were to do it with regards to Egypt, to verify that South Africa does in fact produce the equipment I listed earlier, and export them. Egypt is not in a position to have such an export infrastructure in military hardware, for reasons already stated. And so, it comes as no surprise that you will not find any Egyptian equipment being used in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. You will however, find South African designed and produced equipments in these theaters of conflict.
quote:
The days when South Africa made fighter jets are LONG GONE. You seem found of reminiscing, here's a story titled "Back When South Africa Had Jet Fighters"
You are daydreaming both about my motives and your understanding of South African capacity to produce fighter jets. Critical components of the Gripen, the Eurofighter, Airbus A300M, Hind and Rooivalk helicopter gunships, locally designed Super Pumas, etc, are designed and produced in that country. Production on the Gripen, Eurofighters, Airbus A300M and Hind helicopter gunships are for example, ongoing! South Africa carries design authorities on these products.
Egypt, if it produces any major military hardware, is only reduced to license assembly of imported components.
Do some research, and stamp out your ignorance on the subject.
Your argument isn’t even weak it is faulty. It doesn’t make sense. The fact is Egypt has the most powerful Air Force in all of Africa. I posted a wikipedia link, one you ridiculed, but it is one more source than you are able to provide. The wikipedia piece also cited more than 25 references including the Egyptian air force.
Anyway your illogical argument is Egypt can’t have a better Air Force than South Africa because South Africa makes military hardware. You don’t see the faulty logic in that. How does South Africa military industry change the fact that South Africa only has 15 fighter aircraft and only 34 combat pilots? How does the South African military industry disprove the fact that Egypt Air Force is far superior than SAAF?
Yes they do, I'd had listed them. They've come up with their own jet fighter, manned
What’s the name of the manned jet fighter that South Africa makes?
And provide a source
Is it called The Explorer Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
It would be useful if you both defined what you mean by "superior air force". Is there an objective definition for this?
Ability to produce critical components?
or
Number of fighter Jets?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: It would be useful if you both defined what you mean by "superior air force". Is there an objective definition for this?
Ability to produce critical components?
or
Number of fighter Jets?
How about KickAss as a definition - as in Egypt’s Air Force can wipe the floor clean with South Africa’s Air Force.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
With 240 fighter jets its a high probability they would. Billion dollar aid package each year for thirty years, its good being a lackey of a western democratic country aint it? Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: With 240 fighter jets its a high probability they would. Billion dollar aid package each year for thirty years, its good being a lackey of a western democratic country aint it?
Talk sense to your boy or your girl. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Exiiled, you need to get out of that basement, and breath real air. You need to expose yourself to the real world. Your talk has convinced me that your mind has not matured to sense the workings of the real world. Your multiple little school girl grins reaffirm this observation.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: With 240 fighter jets its a high probability they would. Billion dollar aid package each year for thirty years, its good being a lackey of a western democratic country aint it?
Talk sense to your boy or your girl.
You shouldve talked to your girls from Benghazi advising them not to advance thinking air strikes would protect them all the way to Tripoli. LOL!
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
It would be useful if you both defined what you mean by "superior air force". Is there an objective definition for this?
For me it is simple: "Military strength" is measured by a country's self-reliance in acquiring defense technology, and having enough surplus to even export it. Any fool with money, can import military hardware. How does that equate to military strength? The Saudis and UAE buy weaponry like mad; they don't strike me as a superpower.
I mean, one can import military hardware until one drops. But if and when the foreign suppliers choose to cut that supply off, not to mention selling one weapons that are obviously far inferior to their very own, then you bet that one will have "superiority" in store to beat one's chest about...my ass! LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
It would be useful if you both defined what you mean by "superior air force". Is there an objective definition for this?
For me it is simple: "Military strength" is measured by a country's self-reliance in acquiring defense technology, and having enough surplus to even export it. Any fool with money, can import military hardware. How does that equate to military strength? The Saudis and UAE buy weaponry like mad; they don't strike me as a superpower.
I mean, one can import military hardware until one drops. But if and when the foreign suppliers choose to cut that supply off, not to mention selling one weapons that are obviously far inferior to their very own, then you bet that one will have "superiority" in store to beat one's chest about...my ass! LOL
Cue the Beavis & Butthead type laughter... **ha-ha ha-ha** what a dumb ass **ha-ha**.
One can construct as much military hardware as one likes, but if one's economy is reliant on exporting said military hardware, and one makes a lot of money doing it, than it stands to reason one isn't going to cling onto every last piece, doth it not?
How do you think US and UK companies like Boeing and Grumman got to where they are today? Because foreign militaries were throwing money at them? No. Because we had massive defence budgets which we spent buying from our own. But does that mean they aren't allowed to sell to other countries? Of course they can (unless there's an arms embargo against the country, of course). These are private companies, remember. Their products aren't automatically property of our armies or air forces. So how on earth can you come to the conclusion that because military hardware is built here, our military might is greater than, say, China or India? We might have the big companies but if they have more money to spend stands to reason their army is bigger. End of.
Ok, say South Africa produces a lot of missiles. You still need all the other military paraphernalia to support them - radars, planes, people.
You measure a country's military might in terms of the size of its army and the size of their budget.
Serious speechless - the bounds of idiocy are being taken to new limits here today. "Explorer" is pretty damned apt.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:You measure a country's military might in terms of the size of its army and the size of their budget.
whats the size of n. korean army and how much do they spend on it? same with iraq before gulf war 1.
So based on your criteria Saudi Arabia military is better than the US. Makes sense. LOL!
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
Cue the Beavis & Butthead type laughter... **ha-ha ha-ha** what a dumb ass **ha-ha**.
monkey clit, I noticed that you are quite eloquent in understanding Beavis-Butthead lingo. It only makes sense, since you do display IQ on a scale lower than either Beavis or Butthead could possibly have.
quote:
One can construct as much military hardware as one likes, but if one's economy is reliant on exporting said military hardware, and one makes a lot of money doing it, than it stands to reason one isn't going to cling onto every last piece, doth it not?
This is got to be the dumbest thing in this entire universe, not just planet earth. Keyword is "surplus". What does "surplus" mean to you, knucklehead?
You actually think, in your little inexperienced mind, that a country with a fairly well-developed and almost self-reliant, exporting military network is likely to be a militarily weak country? LOL. Perhaps you just need to stick to munching bananas.
quote: Ok, say South Africa produces a lot of missiles. You still need all the other military paraphernalia to support them - radars, planes, people.
Where were you, when I was giving a quick list, not comprehensive by any means, of locally produced SA military hardware. You bet ya, they produce the "other stuff" you named; duh!
quote:
You measure a country's military might in terms of the size of its army and the size of their budget.
And you suppose a country with a gigantic and almost self-reliant military industrial complex has no budget for that sort of stuff? You tickle me with your utter intellectual incompetency.
quote: Serious speechless - the bounds of idiocy are being taken to new limits here today.
Tell me about it; the stupidity you display is totally out of this world.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
$40,000,000,000 apparently - what of it? I did say "might", I would add. Of course if you're talking about brains vs brawn it's a whole different thing. But it was brawn being discussed here, nonetheless.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Bitch STFU you make more sense cheering on the girls from Benghazi. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ok little boy. Ok.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So based on your criteria Saudi Arabia military is better than the US. Makes sense. LOL!
Uncomfortable thought, isn't it?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
monkey clit, in your entire participation in this thread, you haven't managed to get a single issue right. Not a single! But you do have one thing going for you: Persistence in being a dumbass.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Hey no sweat; being that dimwitted, almost anything can be compliment to you.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Blah blah blah * insult insult * blah blah * highly unlikely statement plucked from thin air with no factual basis or explanation whatsoever * blah blah * requests for clarification and reasoning dodged with * insult insult * blah blah.
Too predictable now. Boring even.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
What monkey is doing at this moment...
sniff sniff....<< scratch my butt >>...
Folks, nothing to see here. LOL
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Exiiled, you need to get out of that basement, and breath real air. You need to expose yourself to the real world. Your talk has convinced me that your mind has not matured to sense the workings of the real world. Your multiple little school girl grins reaffirm this observation.
This is how you cede defeat? This is how you accept that Egypt's Air Force could literally wipe the floor clean with South Africa's airforce.
What happened to the mysterious manned fighter jet "The Explorer" than S.A makes?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: With 240 fighter jets its a high probability they would. Billion dollar aid package each year for thirty years, its good being a lackey of a western democratic country aint it?
Talk sense to your boy or your girl.
You shouldve talked to your girls from Benghazi advising them not to advance thinking air strikes would protect them all the way to Tripoli. LOL!
Libyans will one day rule their country the way they see fit. I can guarantee that. Can you guarantee your king of kings of Africa will be around to see it?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
It would be useful if you both defined what you mean by "superior air force". Is there an objective definition for this?
For me it is simple: "Military strength" is measured by a country's self-reliance in acquiring defense technology, and having enough surplus to even export it. Any fool with money, can import military hardware. How does that equate to military strength? The Saudis and UAE buy weaponry like mad; they don't strike me as a superpower.
I mean, one can import military hardware until one drops. But if and when the foreign suppliers choose to cut that supply off, not to mention selling one weapons that are obviously far inferior to their very own, then you bet that one will have "superiority" in store to beat one's chest about...my ass! LOL
Doesn't quite change the fact that Egypt's Air Force can wipe the floor clean with SAAF.
Does it.
"For me it is simple:" Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Bitch STFU you make more sense cheering on the girls from Benghazi.
You're not only a racist but a nasty mouth one. Tsk. Tsk.
Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.
What did you gain by typing those words? What did you gain? You only lost more respect. You're a joke. Tuffff..
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Exiiled, no, nothing I said can change the fact that you'd fit right in a cuckoo's nest. Your mind has clearly gone into exile.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Exiiled, no, nothing I said can change the fact that you'd fit right in a cuckoo's nest. Your mind has clearly gone into exile.
Really? And because you said so.
Educate yourself, accept when you are wrong, it takes a real man to accept this fact, learn from your mistakes.
South Africa Air Force is weak, they only have 15 fighters and 34 pilots. EAF can wipe the floor clean with the SAAF. Whether you accept this reality or not will have a bearing on how serious/ or a joke you are deemed on ES in future posts.
I am not the only one reading this reply. Even a member who defends you acknowledges the fact that Egypt's Air Force is supeior. Simply put there is reality and then there is you BS. I called you out.
The mic is yours.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: You only lost more respect.
You mean like the girls of Benghazi? Or those who cheer autocratic regimes for ushering in democracy and transparency in the Arab world? What about those who claim Arabs must be free to choose their own leadership....as long as its acceptable to Israeel? Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Really? And because you said so.
Because it is the fact.
I'm talking about this right here:
Exiiled, no, nothing I said can change the fact that you'd fit right in a cuckoo's nest. Your mind has clearly gone into exile.
Be a real man, and accept it. A good road to recovery is acceptance.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: You only lost more respect.
You mean like the girls of Benghazi? Or those who cheer autocratic regimes for ushering in democracy and transparency in the Arab world? What about those who claim Arabs must be free to choose their own leadership....as long as its acceptable to Israeel?
The nerve.
Apologize to Monkey. And speak in respectable manner.
You want respect, EARN IT!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Really? And because you said so.
Because it is the fact.
I'm talking about this right here:
Exiiled, no, nothing I said can change the fact that you'd fit right in a cuckoo's nest. Your mind has clearly gone into exile.
Be a real man, and accept it. A good road to recovery is acceptance.
You're a joke and all ES knows this.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
You're the bare butt of a clown and all ES knows this.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Nooo, please don't apologise. Let us forever be on opposite sides of the fence. The grass looks no greener in la la land to me.
New Zealand is the greatest exporter of wool, therefore they lead the world fashion industry. Turkey is the greatest exporter of grapes, therefore they drink the most wine.
He-he... he-he... he-he... he-he
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^The laughs of mad men. And they call Gaddafi the mad man. LOL
monkey clit, thinking doesn't suit you. And stick to just bananas. You have the capacity to mix apples with oranges.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ooh, ooh, shall I run off and find myself a pretentious username so that no matter what drivel I emit I sound like a smart ass?
Tell me, Exp, exactly how much Exploring did you ever do? Ever make it outside your home country? Or is it restricted to the contents of your vast head?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Sounding like a smart ass, is better than being a dumbass like you, monkey clit.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It wasn't a rhetorical question. Come on, you want to qualify my username with the fact that I'm partial to the odd banana, I suggest you qualify yours and let us all know exactly how much "Exploring" you've done.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Sounding like a smart ass, is better than being a dumbass like you, monkey clit.
Monkey Clit?
Dude you are Iron Lion's personal Bytch. So chill with feminie insults.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
monkey clit, I wasn't answering your grunting noise (supposedly a "question"). I was merely making an observation.
Exiiled, you are the personal cunt that Gaddafi used to screw, but left you for another, which is why you are mad at him. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
See if you'd even confirmed you'd been abroad, my respect for you would have gone up by bucketloads, but it's pretty much as I suspected. Just a fraud and a phony with an online thesaurus and access to davidicke.com
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
monkey clit, what would a bush creature like you know about being "abroad", other than being laboratory broad? LOL
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: monkey clit, I wasn't answering your grunting noise (supposedly a "question"). I was merely making an observation.
Exiiled, you are the personal cunt that Gaddafi used to screw, but left you for another, which is why you are mad at him.
This is what you have been reduced to. Think about it. You couldn't accept the fact that EAF was better than SAAF.
Now you are in gutter. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Not as far in the gutter as you are, when you reduced to this:
"Dude you are Iron Lion's personal Bytch. So chill with feminie insults." - by an exiled mind
Anything outside a padded cell is not good environment for you. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Not as far in the gutter as you are, when you reduced to this:
"Dude you are Iron Lion's personal Bytch. So chill with feminie insults." - by an exiled mind
Anything outside a padded cell is not good environment for you.
You're a joke. You will forever be a joke on ES. You did this to yourself.
Or do you think otherwise? Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
And like I said, you are the bare red butt of a clown, and will forever be a bare butt of a clown on ES. You did this to yourself.
Or do you think otherwise? Right, you are not qualified to think. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: And like I said, you are the bare red butt of a clown, and will forever be a bare butt of a clown on ES. You did this to yourself.
Or do you think otherwise? Right, you are not qualified to think.
ES members are able to make conclusions. You imploded. Yea. you did. You went on and on and on, squirmed and squirmed, about how SAAF was better than EAF.
You're a bloody pig now, and you know what, I will leave you alone. Just squeal oink oink to your own content.
You have no respect here on ES. Anyone who gives you respect it's out of mercy.
Believe that!
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
ES members are able to make conclusions. You are fuckhead. Yea, you are. You went on and on and on, squirmed and squirmed about stuff you don't know jack about. You couldn't tell you ass apart from your head, if you were pressed on it.
You're Gaddafi's bloody cunt now, and you know what, I'll leave your cum smelly self alone. Just squeal oooo yah oooo yah to your own content to your fuckhole plugger.
You have no respect here on ES. Anyone who gives you respect its out of mercy.
Believe that!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ES members are able to make conclusions. You are fuckhead. Yea, you are. You went on and on and on, squirmed and squirmed about stuff you don't know jack about. You couldn't tell you ass apart from your head, if you were pressed on it.
You're Gaddafi's bloody cunt now, and you know what, I'll leave your cum smelly self alone. Just squeal oooo yah oooo yah to your own content to your fuckhole plugger.
You have no respect here on ES. Anyone who gives you respect its out of mercy.
Believe that!
Impode Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Correction: implode Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
The exiled mind says:
Conjection: Imploode.
And exiled mind, you are a confirmed liar. Thought you were leaving me alone. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
So where IS Gadaffi? Libyan dictator not seen in public for more than a week as government forces continue to shell rebels
Oh god! I thought things were crazy before but here comes an added dimension taking crazy to an all time high...
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Anyhoo, steering the subject back to Libya away from The Exp's meltdown, it would seem to me something funny is afoot. There is barely a story about it on the BBC whereas they were running live updates last week. The last news stories I saw there was some sort of organisation with the rebels they had been so lacking before - uniformed officers sprouting up and an actual heirarchy.
And weird about libyafeb17.com. If a website gets too many hits all your host providers usually do is throttle your CPU to slow down your site and drive away visitors. libyafeb17 was the only place you got minute by minute reports of what's actually going on on the ground. Something is being hushed up.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: So where IS Gadaffi? Libyan dictator not seen in public for more than a week as government forces continue to shell rebels
if someone were attempting to assassinate you, I expect you'd lay low too...or maybe not.
Perhaps Gaddafi has called his buddy Castro for advice on how to defeat assassination attempts. You couldn't ask advice from a better source than this since he's avoided over 600 CIA assassination attempts over the last 40 years.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yes, steering back to the girls of Benghazi. lol
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Here's a simple question.
What started this?
Why did the people of Benghazi revolt?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
For jihad, tribalism, opportunism, democracy...take your pick.
Surely you must know by now there was never any "opposition movement". They are more fractured and contradictory than the one in Egypt. And more cowardly I might add. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Exiiled, no, nothing I said can change the fact that you'd fit right in a cuckoo's nest. Your mind has clearly gone into exile.
Really? And because you said so.
Educate yourself, accept when you are wrong, it takes a real man to accept this fact, learn from your mistakes.
South Africa Air Force is weak, they only have 15 fighters and 34 pilots. EAF can wipe the floor clean with the SAAF. Whether you accept this reality or not will have a bearing on how serious/ or a joke you are deemed on ES in future posts.
I am not the only one reading this reply. Even a member who defends you acknowledges the fact that Egypt's Air Force is supeior. Simply put there is reality and then there is you BS. I called you out.
The mic is yours.
Exilled again, no one disputes the larger size of the Egyptian Air force. On paper, it is clearly the most powerful in Africa, in terms of numbers. But numerical strength on paper is only one factor in predicting air success. Egypt's Air Force has outnumbered the Israeli forces in past wars but the smaller Israeli force has usually defeated the larger Egyptian forces, even when it was using comparable, first-line Soviet equipment. In fact at the best Egyptian performance of the Yom Kippur War- the Crossing- Egyptian generals made the decision to MINIMIZE Egyptian air power because of its inferiority to the smaller but superior Israeli air forces. They relied instead on the ground-based missile shield. It was the GROUND-BASED FORCES using these missiles that took heavy toll on Israel, not any Egyptian airpower. Lesson: large numbers may not mean much without the associated skill, proficiency and battle management.
Even all the Arab air forces combined, made up a huge numerical advantage against Israel in past wars. But what is the bottom line? Defeat for the Arabs by the more technically proficient and skilled Israelis. One important reason (not the only one, but one important reason), was the ability of Israel to master, adapt, modify and innovate its own refinements to imported technology. This also means battle management and command and control systems. As time went on Israel advanced even more to produce its own aircraft.
In fact, one of the central weaknesses of the Egyptian Air force is a tendency to favor numbers over such things as sortie generation capability, battle management, mastery of technology etc.
QUOTE by one analyst of Egyptian air power: --------------------- ".. does still tend to emphasize modern aircraft numbers over sustained and sortie generation capability. More generally the Egyptian Air Force cannot compete with the Israeli Air Force in overall battle management, exploitation of modern sensors and targeting systems, electronic warfare.. and in using precision strike and attack munitions. It also focuses more on numbers than sustainability and had little ability to sustain high sortie rates. Air combat and joint warfare training still need improvement, as does the ability of manage large numbers of aircraft in air combat and attack missions. The air force badly needs to speed up its decision-making cycle."
-- Anthony H. Cordesman. Arab-Israeli military forces in an era of asymmetric wars. 2006. Center for Strategic and International Studies. pg 174 Check it out on GoogleBooks. ----------------------------
There you have it. What you cite as a strength- big numbers - is actually partially a weakness of the Egyptian Air Force. It has big numbers but is weak in battle management and other crucial factors, not to mention skill. Hence your claim of thee Egyptian Air force being "the best in Africa" is open very much to question. It is the LARGEST in Africa, but as shown by expert defense analysts, its reliance on big numbers, is also a weakness.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: ..it would seem to me something funny is afoot. There is barely a story about it on the BBC whereas they were running live updates last week. The last news stories I saw there was some sort of organisation with the rebels they had been so lacking before - uniformed officers sprouting up and an actual heirarchy.
And weird about libyafeb17.com. If a website gets too many hits all your host providers usually do is throttle your CPU to slow down your site and drive away visitors. libyafeb17 was the only place you got minute by minute reports of what's actually going on on the ground. Something is being hushed up.
^^You may be on to something. Here are some possibilities:
(1) Obama needs a cool out before the abyss: Obama realizes that his glorious "democracy project" could blow up in his face if the Colonel decides to wage a long, people's war, as increasingly seems to be the case. Hence, you see a reduction in the flurry of government announcements. They want to de-emphasize the situation, minimize it, get it out of the really hot top news tories, while they search for a face-saving way out. The so-called "hand over to NATO" and "reduction of the role of US aircraft" is part of this "cool it" strategy.
2) The so-called "Coalition" does not want continued media scrutiny and probes into the rebels, their methods and their affiliations because of their Islamist/AlQaeda connections, & because said rebels, if they have any smarts, will be or are already trying to consolidate control over the populations where they are, using various levels of violence, intimidation and coercion. The rebels cannot solely rely on their ad hoc groups of fighters. They have to control population numbers. In fact, the rebels themselves will be,or are already using civilians as human shields to avoid attack by loyalist forces. Why else would rebel strongpoints be set up in apartment buildings and hospitals? Because they hope to discourage loyalist attack while playing up to the international media that they are merely innocent victims. Furthermore in some cities there is clear PRo Ghadaffi sentiment among civilians. THe rebels will be or are already attacking these civilians that disagree with them.
The "Media cool out" may be designed to deflect media attention from the true dimensions of this civil war. It is designed to manipulate coverage more into pushing the "spin" that the rebels are heroic freedom fighters, and not, heaven forbid, a group or groups bent on power with their own hidden and open agendas. What has been embarrassing for the coalition is that too many "unsupervised" news stories and blogs are asking questions about the rebels, particularly their Islamist links. The "media chill" buys time to establish a proper propaganda line and image for the mass press to report. It also deflects attention from the duplicitous role of the Arab League and other players in the drama.
3) The news "cool out" may be a deception strategy, to cover MORE deployment of ground troops. They realize that the anointed golden boy rebels are not up to snuff. The media "cool out" gives them a chance to put more boots on the ground. Look at the flurry of assurances about "no boots on the ground". They are plain and simply lying. To get more precise air strikes, they will definitely need boots on the ground and already have such via US/NATO Special Forces. This is a big part of how the Taliban was ousted in 2001, by these Special Forces. Its hard to believe people are being taken in by "assurances" about "no boots." Second, if they want to raise rebel proficiency in combat, they will need even more "boots on the ground" to train said rebels. The "media cool out" provides cover, screening the fact that they are rapidly increasing deployment of such ground forces. They may call them "advisers" or classify them as CIA who are "not really" "ground" troops or may say they are "working with the Egyptians" or some other such fig-leaf. But it is just that, a bogus cover story.
Ironically, if these Euro/US boots on the ground are increasing, it should give any sane commander EVEN MORE INCENTIVE TO KEEP ATTACKING REBELS. Ghadaffi would be a fool to let Special Forces set up comfortably in Libya to call in precise air-strikes and train and arm his enemies. He needs to keep the pressure on constantly- sending hit teams out in civilian guise as needed to hunt down these Special Forces troops wherever he finds them. They represent a mortal danger to his forces because of their capabilities. In Laos during the Vietnam War, PAVN did not play when US SPecial Forces were in an area. They knew these men would be calling in punishing air-strikes, so they pulled out every stop to kill or capture them. The Colonel needs to do likewise from a purely military standpoint, if he wants to stay in business.
4) A bored or cooperative press? All of the above are possible scenarios, or maybe the media, sensing that the whole thing is becoming too difficult & complicated for exciting video clips and simple sound bites, is turning elsewhere. Besides, Obama is announcing his 2nd presidential run already. The last thing he needs is continual bad press about another, dreary, drawn out Mid East war without end.
At the same time, if he can get a Ghadaffi exit timed right, he can proclaim a victory. The post Ghadaffi problems can be relegated to obscurity and back page status. This would enhance his campaign talking points- burnishing his image as bringer of democracy, overthrower of dictators and a tough commander of the armed forces not afraid to make those tough calls.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Zarahan you are a filthy conspiracy theorist! Talking all this nonsense about possible al queda links and personal agendas of rebels! This is about freedom from a mad man who kills his own people! Don't make it any more complicated for me! Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Really? And because you said so.
Educate yourself, accept when you are wrong, it takes a real man to accept this fact, learn from your mistakes.
South Africa Air Force is weak, they only have 15 fighters and 34 pilots. EAF can wipe the floor clean with the SAAF. Whether you accept this reality or not will have a bearing on how serious/ or a joke you are deemed on ES in future posts.
I am not the only one reading this reply. Even a member who defends you acknowledges the fact that Egypt's Air Force is supeior. Simply put there is reality and then there is you BS. I called you out.
The mic is yours. [/qb]
Exilled again, no one disputes the larger size of the Egyptian Air force. On paper, it is clearly the most powerful in Africa, in terms of numbers. But numerical strength on paper is only one factor in predicting air success. Egypt's Air Force has outnumbered the Israeli forces in past wars but the smaller Israeli force has usually defeated the larger Egyptian forces, even when it was using comparable, first-line Soviet equipment. In fact at the best Egyptian performance of the Yom Kippur War- the Crossing- Egyptian generals made the decision to MINIMIZE Egyptian air power because of its inferiority to the smaller but superior Israeli air forces. They relied instead on the ground-based missile shield. It was the GROUND-BASED FORCES using these missiles that took heavy toll on Israel, not any Egyptian airpower. Lesson: large numbers may not mean much without the associated skill, proficiency and battle management.
Even all the Arab air forces combined, made up a huge numerical advantage against Israel in past wars. But what is the bottom line? Defeat for the Arabs by the more technically proficient and skilled Israelis. One important reason (not the only one, but one important reason), was the ability of Israel to master, adapt, modify and innovate its own refinements to imported technology. This also means battle management and command and control systems. As time went on Israel advanced even more to produce its own aircraft.
In fact, one of the central weaknesses of the Egyptian Air force is a tendency to favor numbers over such things as sortie generation capability, battle management, mastery of technology etc.
QUOTE by one analyst of Egyptian air power: --------------------- ".. does still tend to emphasize modern aircraft numbers over sustained and sortie generation capability. More generally the Egyptian Air Force cannot compete with the Israeli Air Force in overall battle management, exploitation of modern sensors and targeting systems, electronic warfare.. and in using precision strike and attack munitions. It also focuses more on numbers than sustainability and had little ability to sustain high sortie rates. Air combat and joint warfare training still need improvement, as does the ability of manage large numbers of aircraft in air combat and attack missions. The air force badly needs to speed up its decision-making cycle."
-- Anthony H. Cordesman. Arab-Israeli military forces in an era of asymmetric wars. 2006. Center for Strategic and International Studies. pg 174 Check it out on GoogleBooks. ----------------------------
There you have it. What you cite as a strength- big numbers - is actually partially a weakness of the Egyptian Air Force. It has big numbers but is weak in battle management and other crucial factors, not to mention skill. Hence your claim of thee Egyptian Air force being "the best in Africa" is open very much to question. It is the LARGEST in Africa, but as shown by expert defense analysts, its reliance on big numbers, is also a weakness. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I find it odd that Egypt's air force was eliminated in one day of air bombings, yet you make this statment.
F*ck it I am not going back and re-doing the hypermark up.
How often does the South African military actually take part in armed conflicts or wars?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^How is it odd? They had a big air force that outnumbered its opponent, and it STILL got beaten up in several wars. This confirms the point that mere numbers are not necessarily an indicator of success,or effective air power. This is standard history 101. In WWII, GErmany's air force during the battle of Britain, on paper, outnumbered the British, 4 to 1. But they were STILL beaten. Why? Under the notion of big numbers =BEST they should have won. So should the Egyptians against ISrael in various wars. But as any basic research shows:
"...the differences between the Spitfire and the Me 109 in performance and handling were only marginal, and in a combat they were almost always surmounted by tactical considerations: which side had seen the other first, had the advantage of sun, altitude, numbers, pilot ability, tactical situation, tactical co-ordination, amount of fuel remaining, etc. -Alfred Price in The Spitfire Story. Wikipedia- battle of Britain.
As you can see, much more goes into air campaigns than a simplistic hope in "big" numbers. The big=best air theory does not hold up.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^How is it odd? They had a big air force that outnumbered its opponent, and it STILL got beaten up in several wars. This confirms the point that mere numbers are not necessarily an indicator of success,or effective air power. This is standard history 101. In WWII, GErmany's air force during the battle of Britain, on paper, outnumbered the British, 4 to 1. But they were STILL beaten. Why? Under the notion of big numbers =BEST they should have won. So should the Egyptians against ISrael in various wars. But as any basic research shows:
"...the differences between the Spitfire and the Me 109 in performance and handling were only marginal, and in a combat they were almost always surmounted by tactical considerations: which side had seen the other first, had the advantage of sun, altitude, numbers, pilot ability, tactical situation, tactical co-ordination, amount of fuel remaining, etc. -Alfred Price in The Spitfire Story. Wikipedia- battle of Britain.
As you can see, much more goes into air campaigns than a simplistic hope in "big" numbers. The big=best air theory does not hold up.
I could give a rat's patoote about other air forces.
Egypt's air force was taken out early in the 67 war 304 of their 419 planes were gone June 5th. Israel had triple that number of planes.
It took Egypt another decade to build up that small number of planes.
I don't know where you are getting your ideas from, but I'd prefer you'd offer numbers, stats that can be verified.
And when was the last time South Africa was in any armed conflict or war, not including its acts against South Africa's own people.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Really? And because you said so.
Educate yourself, accept when you are wrong, it takes a real man to accept this fact, learn from your mistakes.
South Africa Air Force is weak, they only have 15 fighters and 34 pilots. EAF can wipe the floor clean with the SAAF. Whether you accept this reality or not will have a bearing on how serious/ or a joke you are deemed on ES in future posts.
I am not the only one reading this reply. Even a member who defends you acknowledges the fact that Egypt's Air Force is supeior. Simply put there is reality and then there is you BS. I called you out.
The mic is yours.
Exilled again, no one disputes the larger size of the Egyptian Air force. On paper, it is clearly the most powerful in Africa, in terms of numbers. But numerical strength on paper is only one factor in predicting air success. Egypt's Air Force has outnumbered the Israeli forces in past wars but the smaller Israeli force has usually defeated the larger Egyptian forces, even when it was using comparable, first-line Soviet equipment. In fact at the best Egyptian performance of the Yom Kippur War- the Crossing- Egyptian generals made the decision to MINIMIZE Egyptian air power because of its inferiority to the smaller but superior Israeli air forces. They relied instead on the ground-based missile shield. It was the GROUND-BASED FORCES using these missiles that took heavy toll on Israel, not any Egyptian airpower. Lesson: large numbers may not mean much without the associated skill, proficiency and battle management.
Even all the Arab air forces combined, made up a huge numerical advantage against Israel in past wars. But what is the bottom line? Defeat for the Arabs by the more technically proficient and skilled Israelis. One important reason (not the only one, but one important reason), was the ability of Israel to master, adapt, modify and innovate its own refinements to imported technology. This also means battle management and command and control systems. As time went on Israel advanced even more to produce its own aircraft.
In fact, one of the central weaknesses of the Egyptian Air force is a tendency to favor numbers over such things as sortie generation capability, battle management, mastery of technology etc.
QUOTE by one analyst of Egyptian air power: --------------------- ".. does still tend to emphasize modern aircraft numbers over sustained and sortie generation capability. More generally the Egyptian Air Force cannot compete with the Israeli Air Force in overall battle management, exploitation of modern sensors and targeting systems, electronic warfare.. and in using precision strike and attack munitions. It also focuses more on numbers than sustainability and had little ability to sustain high sortie rates. Air combat and joint warfare training still need improvement, as does the ability of manage large numbers of aircraft in air combat and attack missions. The air force badly needs to speed up its decision-making cycle."
-- Anthony H. Cordesman. Arab-Israeli military forces in an era of asymmetric wars. 2006. Center for Strategic and International Studies. pg 174 Check it out on GoogleBooks. ----------------------------
There you have it. What you cite as a strength- big numbers - is actually partially a weakness of the Egyptian Air Force. It has big numbers but is weak in battle management and other crucial factors, not to mention skill. Hence your claim of thee Egyptian Air force being "the best in Africa" is open very much to question. It is the LARGEST in Africa, but as shown by expert defense analysts, its reliance on big numbers, is also a weakness. [/QB]
[/QB][/QUOTE]
On paper South African Air Force has only 34 combat pilots and 15 Swedish fighter jets. On paper Egypt has 240 F-16 upgraded fighter jets. In reality what do you think the outcome of those two Air Forces going head to head? Let's get this out the way first.
You continuously mention past wars. Are we in 1960 or are we in 2011? The fact is Egypt prior to 1980 was an Air Force with Russian aerial hardware and Russian training. This was true in all of their wars with Israel e.g 48,56,67,73. You are basing all your arguments on this fact, on the past, right?
Your analysis is nor merely outdated but invalid. Egyptian Air force since 1980 began a tremendous transformation. They literally transformed from a Russian hardware air force to an American hardware air force. From Migs to kickAss F-16 fighter jets.
Get it. It's not 1950/1960/1970 it's 2011. It's no longer Migs. Its Fighting Falcons now with US training. Your argument is as outdated as the outdated Migs the Egyptian flew in 1950/1960/1970.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
Thanks for that up to date info Exiiled. A new addition to the family via marriage is in the AirForce.
I've been told Egypt Air pilots are on standby for the Egyptian Air Force as well.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Thanks for that up to date info Exiiled. A new addition to the family via marriage is in the AirForce.
I've been told Egypt Air pilots are on standby for the Egyptian Air Force as well.
You're welcome :-)
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
A patriotic Chadian refuses Qadaffi money $30K to become a filthy mercenary.
]if someone were attempting to assassinate you, I expect you'd lay low too...or maybe not.
Perhaps Gaddafi has called his buddy Castro for advice on how to defeat assassination attempts. You couldn't ask advice from a better source than this since he's avoided over 600 CIA assassination attempts over the last 40 years.
Gaddafi himself is an expert on having escaped so many assassination attempts on his life by the same players who are bombing Libya today. So, I think he can learn sufficiently from his own experience.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
2 Qaddafi Sons Are Said to Offer Plan to Push Father Out Take your vile PaPa and get the hell out of Libya!
TRIPOLI, Libya -- At least two sons of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi are proposing a resolution to the Libyan conflict that would entail pushing their father aside to make way for a transition to a constitutional democracy under the direction of his son Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi, a diplomat and a Libyan official briefed on the plan said Sunday.
The rebels challenging Colonel Qaddafi as well as the American and European powers supporting them with air strikes have so far insisted on a more radical break with his 40 years of rule. And it is not clear whether Colonel Qaddafi, 68, has signed on to the reported proposal backed by his sons, Seif and Saadi el-Qaddafi, although one person close to the sons said the father appeared willing to go along.
But the proposal offers a new window into the dynamics of the Qaddafi family at a time when the colonel, who has seven sons, is relying heavily on them. Stripped of one of his closest confidantes by the defection of Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa and isolated by decades of attempted coups and internal purges, he is leaning on his sons as trusted aides and military commanders.
The idea also touches on longstanding differences among his sons. While Seif and Saadi have leaned toward Western-style economic and political openings, Colonel Qaddafi's sons Khamis and Mutuassim are considered hard-liners. Khamis leads a fearsome militia focused on repressing internal unrest.
And Mutuassim, a national security adviser who also commands his own militia, has been considered a rival to Seif in the competition to succeed their father. But Saadi, who has drifted through careers as a professional soccer player, a military officer and a businessman, firmly backs the plan, an associate said.
The two sons "want to move toward change for the country" without their father, one person close to the Seif and Saadi camp said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution. "They have hit so many brick walls with the old guard, and if they have the go-ahead, they will bring the country up quickly." One son, this person said, has said many times that "the wishes of the rebellion were his own."
The proposals are the latest turn in a drama between Seif and his father that has played out for years on the stage of Libyan public life as the son has alternately pushed forward with calls for political reforms and then pulled back. During the recent revolt, he appeared to march in lockstep with his father in vowing to stamp out the rebels. "We are coming," he declared to a crowd of supporters who chanted, "Seif al-Islam, step on the rats."
The proposals are also the latest sign that the Qaddafi government may be feeling the pressure from two weeks of allied airstrikes that have severely diminished the advantage in equipment of the Qaddafi militias. A senior Libyan official arrived in Athens for talks about a potential resolution to the conflict, the Reuters news service reported. And Mohamed Ismail, a top aide to Seif, is returning from a trip to London, where, a Libyan official said, he presented the proposal for Seif to take over from his father.
Mutuassim may be particularly resistant because of his longstanding rivalry with Seif.
After Seif made a high-profile trip to Washington to meet with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in 2008, a WikiLeaks cable reported, the attention paid "exacerbated tension with his siblings."
When Mutuassim visited Washington the next year, the American ambassador to Libya wrote, "Mutuassim's desire to visit Washington this spring and his seemingly overweening focus on having meetings with senior U.S. government officials and signing a number of agreements are driven at least in part by a strong sense of competition with Saif al-Islam."
In a recent interview with the pan-Arab news channel Al-Arabiya, Saadi suggested that before the revolt Seif was already "the person who used to run the show every day in Libya." The defection last week of Mr. Koussa, the former top aide to Colonel Qaddafi, removes a figure who had been considered a leader of the old guard distrustful of Seif and opposed to reform.
A diplomat familiar with the proposal, however, said discussions remained in the initial stages. Despite the evidence of deep internal discontent, Colonel Qaddafi appears to believe that rebellion against him is a foreign conspiracy of Islamist radicals and oil-hungry Western powers attempting to take over Libya, the diplomat said. And the rebels, who have set up their own provisional government, continue to insist on the exit from power of Colonel Qaddafi and his sons.
"This is the beginning position of the opposition, and this is the beginning position of the Libyan government," this diplomat said. "But the bargaining has yet to commence."
Militarily, the rebellion remained locked in a stalemate on Sunday. On the eastern front, near the oil town of Brega, the two sides fired rockets, mortars and artillery against each other in a contest for the northern entrance of town. But the battle lines changed only slightly, and neither side appeared to have a clear upper hand.
The fighting intensified in the late afternoon and evening during a three-hour exchange in which rebels launched salvo after salvo of rockets toward the town, and loyalist artillery or mortars replied. The shells landed and exploded across an expanse of desert north of the town.
At least two rebels were killed and others wounded. The fight for Brega continued at the university, where the rebels, who have at times since Friday managed to gain a toehold, withdrew under fire. But the main body of rebels crept closer to the town, and seized two ridges that provided a vantage point for firing on the loyalists holding the town.
At the hospital in Ajdabiya, where casualties are first taken, a team of doctors rushed to help a wounded government soldier who had been shot through the left calf, the right arm, and twice through his right chest and out his back. The soldier, whose documents listed him as Akhmed Awad Omar, from Surt, died on the table, his blood pooled on the floor.
The attendants covered him with a cloth. "He is a Libyan, and we are sorry for him," said Dr. Habib Mohammed el-Obeidy, before the body was wheeled to the morgue. "Qaddafi is using Libyans against Libyans."
In Tripoli, armed checkpoints throughout the streets have kept the capital in an anxious lockdown with no signs of any renewed uprising since the revolt that shook the city six weeks ago. Noting that the United Nations resolution authorizing the air strikes also precludes the deployment of ground troops, the diplomat familiar with the proposal backed by the two sons said he wondered how the fighting could end without a negotiated solution.
"They will continue until the ammunition is finished, this stupid fighting along the highway," the diplomat said.
Proposals and counterproposals for a cease-fire exchanged between the Qaddafi forces and the rebels appeared deadlocked as well, the diplomat noted. "For Qaddafi a cease-fire means everyone should cease firing but the Qaddafi forces should stay where they are," the diplomat said. "But for the rebels it means that the Qaddafi forces should withdraw."
Rebels said Sunday that the Western airstrikes had begun hitting the heavy weapons of the Qaddafi forces even within cities. A spokesman for the rebels controlling the besieged city of Misurata said that on Friday night the airstrikes had hit two tanks and three armored vehicles of the Qaddafi forces that had entered the city.
But on Sunday morning Qaddafi forces outside the city continued shelling an area near the port, while Qaddafi gunmen occupied rooftops along the central Tripoli Street, said the spokesman, Mohamed, whose last name was withheld for the protection of his family.
In an interview in Tripoli, Levent Sahinkaya, the Turkish ambassador, said a Turkish hospital ship had left the Misurata port loaded with 250 patients seriously injured in the fighting. The Qaddafi government had sought to direct the ship first to Tripoli or to postpone its trip, Mr. Sahinkaya said, but instead the Turkish government sent it directly to Misurata with the escort of 10 F-16 fighters and a warship.
"The humanitarian side is so important to us," the ambassador said.
"We are the only country able to speak with both sides," he said, referring to both the rebels and the Qaddafi government.
"We think a cease-fire should be reached, and after a cease-fire a political solution can be discussed," Mr. Sahinkaya said. "This is the Turkish position." He declined to address the details of any cease-fire talks.
About 50 foreign embassies remain open in Tripoli, including those of Turkey, Russia, Bulgaria, Ukraine and China as well as sub-Saharan African countries.
Personally I think holding on to him would strategically be pretty stupid. If they want those around Gadaffi to defect they need to be offering an escape route, or at least the appearance of one, instead of backing them into a corner.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Good luck with getting back out again Moussa Koussa.
Personally I think holding on to him would strategically be pretty stupid. If they want those around Gadaffi to defect they need to be offering an escape route, or at least the appearance of one, instead of backing them into a corner.
Bad timing I agree. But Moses Zucchini is a low-life POS. They say Qadaffi's only advisors are “his sons and Moussa Koussa.” The UK prison system is too good for him BUT imokwiththis. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I'm not. I haven't got an x-box. Why should he get one?
Nah, don't fiddle around snipping away at the tail. Cut off the head of the snake I reckon.
Unless he personally delivered the semtex in this little visit. Nothing would surprise me.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Exilled wrote: Your analysis is nor merely outdated but invalid. Egyptian Air force since 1980 began a tremendous transformation. They literally transformed from a Russian hardware air force to an American hardware air force. From Migs to kickAss F-16 fighter jets.
Get it. It's not 1950/1960/1970 it's 2011. It's no longer Migs. Its Fighting Falcons now with US training. Your argument is as outdated as the outdated Migs the Egyptian flew in 1950/1960/1970
No you still don't get it. Your so called BIG=BEST notion is bullshiit. The defense analysis quoted above is from 2006. The author was talking about the CURRENT Egyptian Air Force. Get it? So whether the issue is looked at currently, or historically doesn't make any difference. Your notion that the Egyptian Airforce is somehow magically transformed because they are flying "kickass" F-16s (lmao) just shows your lack of understanding. Since you keep insisting on your dubious notion, show historically or currently, where your BIG=BEST air notion holds up for Egypt. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
And do you realize that you actually destroyed your own simplistic BIG=BEST theory when you mentioned advanced aircraft? DO you realize that advanced aircraft are one of the several factors that allow a smaller air force to defeat much larger one numerically? You are undermining your own simplistic "kickass" numbers theory.
And there is a second way you are undermined, using your own examples. At the time of Israel's most famous air victory against Egypt, the 1967 War, the Egyptian forces were not using wholly "obsolete" aircraft. To the contrary. Egyptians had numerous first line, high quality aircraft, comparable to what Israel had, including Soviet bombers that outclassed anything the israeli's could put in the air. Indeed the Arab armies as a whole could field top-of-the line aircraft that outnumbered Israel. And they STILL lost despite so-called "kickass" numbers (lmao), with "kickass" modern aircraft, equal to or better than the Israelis. You have undermined yourself with your own "obsolete" aircraft defense.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Interesting:
Who has the best air force in the world?
1. USA 2. Russia 3. China 4. UK 5. France 6. India 7. Germany 8. R. Korea 9. Israel 10. Greece
This list is comprised from data comparing not only manpower, but the budget size and mobility of the Airforce. It also doesn't favour countries like Israel as, although they do have highly trained pilots and a reasonable amount of aircraft, it is an example of a country that has built an unsustainable armed force (due to its relatively small economy) so could not withstand a war over 4 months at a time and its milatary strength is as a result of its generous share of its governments budget spending in comparision to other countries. Also countries like Israel and india may have landed higher in the table if they could compete with the USA, UK or France on Weapons and Aircraft technology develpment as these are the countries which develop and create the Aircraft where as israel and India buys its defence capitol from the USA and UK second hand. The Greek Air-Force is also very well-known for its extensively highly-trained pilots. Dont forget that their best squad beat America's best squad with an incredible 17-3 at NATO's biggest airforce exercise "Red Flag" which took place at Nellis Airbase of Nevada in 2007.
Fair play vw. Good post. Only because we come fourth, naturally. If we weren't on there I'd be moaning like hell
I don't think you can say categorically one country has a 'better' military than another by looking on a list. Leaving aside that one country might have better tacticians than another, you are relying on countries declaring their spending on arms, and that those declarations are truthful. Does kind of put them on a back foot from the get go. I would imagine some countries are fairly secretive about that sort of thing.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The air "rankings" above are flawed. That is not surprising since the source is Wiki Answers and not some verifiable analysis written by a credible defense expert or historian.
Nevertheless, even giving it the benefit of the doubt, the list actually UNDERMINES the bogus BIG=BEST theory, and actually expose it as nonsense.China, for example can post massive aircraft numbers, that dwarf the USA Air forces. But the USA is miles ahead of the Chinese in crucial OTHER factors such as carrier capability, skill, technology, electronic warfare and battle management. Notice how all these are OTHER key factors that shape outcomes and are not merely the simplistic "big" numbers others claim? Even China recognizes this and plans for an integrated defense involving land and ship based missiles working in tandem with their aerial force. China does not rely on sheer aircraft numbers alone. The basic reality that many OTHER factors make up aerial warfare, seem to be beyond the reach of those who talk about "kickass" numbers.. lol
Lets look at number 4 and 5 on the list- the UK and France. The Air Force of 'Dear Comrade Leader" Kim, in North Korea has "kickass" numbers.. Whoo hoo! At 1600-1700 aircraft, the 'dear Leader' outnumbers the French about 2 to 1. The dear Leader also outnumbers the British Airforce by 50% in aircraft, and his manpower totals are THREE times the British air force. But the British and French airforces are years ahead of the North Korean one in capability, technology, skill battle management, and killing power. Simplistic notions about "kickass" numbers fail to grasp such elementary realities.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Exilled wrote: Your analysis is nor merely outdated but invalid. Egyptian Air force since 1980 began a tremendous transformation. They literally transformed from a Russian hardware air force to an American hardware air force. From Migs to kickAss F-16 fighter jets.
Get it. It's not 1950/1960/1970 it's 2011. It's no longer Migs. Its Fighting Falcons now with US training. Your argument is as outdated as the outdated Migs the Egyptian flew in 1950/1960/1970
No you still don't get it. Your so called BIG=BEST notion is bullshiit. The defense analysis quoted above is from 2006. The author was talking about the CURRENT Egyptian Air Force. Get it? So whether the issue is looked at currently, or historically doesn't make any difference. Your notion that the Egyptian Airforce is somehow magically transformed because they are flying "kickass" F-16s (lmao) just shows your lack of understanding. Since you keep insisting on your dubious notion, show historically or currently, where your BIG=BEST air notion holds up for Egypt. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
And do you realize that you actually destroyed your own simplistic BIG=BEST theory when you mentioned advanced aircraft? DO you realize that advanced aircraft are one of the several factors that allow a smaller air force to defeat much larger one numerically? You are undermining your own simplistic "kickass" numbers theory.
And there is a second way you are undermined, using your own examples. At the time of Israel's most famous air victory against Egypt, the 1967 War, the Egyptian forces were not using wholly "obsolete" aircraft. To the contrary. Egyptians had numerous first line, high quality aircraft, comparable to what Israel had, including Soviet bombers that outclassed anything the israeli's could put in the air. Indeed the Arab armies as a whole could field top-of-the line aircraft that outnumbered Israel. And they STILL lost despite so-called "kickass" numbers (lmao), with "kickass" modern aircraft, equal to or better than the Israelis. You have undermined yourself with your own "obsolete" aircraft defense.
So whether the issue is looked at currently, or historically doesn't make any difference.
It makes all the difference, Egypt has totally transformed their Air Force from Russian to American. Get it!
From Migs to F-16 from Russian training to US training.
Pre-1980 Egypt Air Force was Russian hardware with Russian training.
Post-1980 Egypt Air Force is American hardware and American trained.
Do you comprehend?
I'm not interested of analysis of the Egyptian Air Force pre-1980 even if it was printed 2011. Get it - Egypt was a different Air Force prior to 1980, different hardware, different training.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
What happened to the ludicrous calls that South Africa with their 15 Swedish fighter jets and their measly 34 combat pilots were better than the EAF.
African Jedis Flying dem planes Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Correction: South African Jedis Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Do you comprehend?
I'm not interested of analysis of the Egyptian Air Force pre-1980 even if it was printed 2011. Get it - Egypt was a different Air Force prior to 1980, different hardware, different training.
It's you who don't comprehend. At the time of the Israeli victory in 1967, there was no obsolete issue. The Arab forces overall in total numbers, had more top quality aircraft equal to or better than Israel. This undermines your "obsolete" argument.
And the RECENT 2006 defence analysis notes that a central Egyptian weakness is that it relies too heavily on numbers, and is not proficient enough in crucial things like technology and battle management. So it doesn't matter if the Egyptians are flying new hardware, their weakness still remains, and your "kickass numbers" notion is exposed as dubious. I again ask- show credible proof where big aircraft numbers have been decisive in any Egyptian air force victory against another air force. Prove your "big =best" theory. What's taking you so long?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Do you comprehend?
I'm not interested of analysis of the Egyptian Air Force pre-1980 even if it was printed 2011. Get it - Egypt was a different Air Force prior to 1980, different hardware, different training.
It's you who don't comprehend. At the time of the Israeli victory in 1967, there was no obsolete issue. The Arab forces overall in total numbers, had more top quality aircraft equal to or better than Israel. This undermines your "obsolete" argument.
And the RECENT 2006 defence analysis notes that a central Egyptian weakness is that it relies too heavily on numbers, and is not proficient enough in crucial things like technology and battle management. So it doesn't matter if the Egyptians are flying new hardware, their weakness still remains, and your "kickass numbers" notion is exposed as dubious. I again ask- show credible proof where big aircraft numbers have been decisive in any Egyptian air force victory against another air force. Prove your "big =best" theory. What's taking you so long?
1967 Dude you are all about hindsight a.k.a retospect it is 2011! I keep telling you - Egypt Air Force is now American and not Russian.
Get it? How they fared prior to 1980 is irrevleant to the discussion we're having.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The RECENT 2006 defence analysis notes that a central Egyptian weakness is that it relies too heavily on numbers, and is not proficient enough in crucial things like technology and battle management. So it doesn't matter if the Egyptians are flying new hardware, their weakness still remains, and your "kickass numbers" notion is exposed as dubious. I again ask- show credible proof where big aircraft numbers have been decisive in any Egyptian air force victory against another air force. Prove your "big =best" theory. What's taking you so long?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The RECENT 2006 defence analysis notes that a central Egyptian weakness is that it relies too heavily on numbers, and is not proficient enough in crucial things like technology and battle management. So it doesn't matter if the Egyptians are flying new hardware, their weakness still remains, and your "kickass numbers" notion is exposed as dubious. I again ask- show credible proof where big aircraft numbers have been decisive in any Egyptian air force victory against another air force. Prove your "big =best" theory. What's taking you so long?
And this in your opinion believes that the 15 South African Jet Aircraft and 34 combat pilots can defeat the EAF?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
No, I am saying your BIG-BEst theory doesn't hold water. What's taking you so long to prove your theory?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: No, I am saying your BIG-BEst theory doesn't hold water. What's taking you so long to prove your theory?
My theory was never about Big=Best. It was always abot KickAss=Best.
So for clarification which Air Force is more KickAss. SAAF or EAF?
Simple question. Simple answer would be cool. SAAF or EAF?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
let's be honest about your Big=Best, or Kickass =BEst theory. It doesn't hold up to empirical evidence. As for SAF vs EAF, there are numerous factors besides numbers that determine battle outcome. The big superiority of EAF would give it a great advantage. But if the SAF were working in tandem with a land based missile umbrella, close to their bases, the outcome is open to question. This is why I say many OTHER factors make up aerial warfare, including objectives etc etc than numbers or even good aircraft.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Well doenst seem you are thinking at all. let's be honest about your Big=Best theory. It doesn't hold up to empirical evidence. Admit it.
You're also taking The Explorer road? Such a shame.
Why can't you admit that Egypt's Air Force 2011 and not 1970 can wipe the floor clean with SAAF with their measely 15 Fighters and 34 measely combat pilots. Maybe they have Master Jedi Zulu wid dem.
Cha!
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
lol.. again you merely keep citing numbers like a magic yoga chant. As already shown above, you have failed to support your BIG=Best "kickass" theory. I repeat, OTHER factors besides numbers make up aerial warfare. You cant wriggle away from the facts. Again, what's taking you so long in proving your BIG=BEST "kickass" theory of aerial warfare? Shifting to some SAF vs EAF theoretical can't save you. Show empirical proof of your theory.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: lol.. again you merely keep citing numbers like a magic yoga chant. As already shown above, you have failed to support your BIG=Best "kickass" theory. I repeat, OTHER factors besides numbers make up aerial warfare. You cant wriggle away from the facts. Again, what's taking you so long in proving your BIG=BEST "kickass" theory of aerial warfare? Shifting to some SAF vs EAF theoretical can't save you. Show empirical proof of your theory.
You're a joke. Humility is in BTW.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^lol, the only joke is you. Are you always this dumb or are you making a special effort? Why are you trying to wriggle away? Prove your so-called "kickass" theory.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^lol, the only joke is you. Are you always this dumb or are you making a special effort? Why are you trying to wriggle away? Prove your so-called "kickass" theory.
U got schooled Next...
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The only person that got schooled is you fool. Now focus and don't let your mind wander; it's far too small to be let out on its own. Why have you not yet come up with proof of your "kickass" theory? What's taking you so long?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Would just like to say, to those who pointed out "where was the UN when all the attrocities occurred in the rest of Africa and all those other countries that don't have oil..."
French atrocities against the people of Ivory Coast is well documented. This "halt attacks on civilians" argument is so BS.
Why is France so interested? "France lives off Francophone Africa via C.F.A franc" link
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: No, I am saying your BIG-BEst theory doesn't hold water. What's taking you so long to prove your theory?
My theory was never about Big=Best. It was always abot KickAss=Best.
Stop lying bitch. Your whole argument rests on numbers, big.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
French atrocities against the people of Ivory Coast is well documented. This "halt attacks on civilians" argument is so BS. [Roll Eyes] Why is France so interested? "France lives off Francophone Africa via C.F.A franc" link.
^^The author below lists 5 types of French hegemony and intervention: (1) setting up dictatorial but friendly regimes, 2) coup de'tat and destabilization operations, 3) intervention to suppress internal rebellions that threaten French clients, (4) intervention to defend against external aggression, (5) "multilateral" intervention under the guise or cover of UN institutions. He notes that France maintains numerous bases in Africa, strategically positioned near major harbors, airports, roads, etc. The aim is to create an African security dependency the writer argues.
-------------------
France and the new imperialism: security policy in Sub-Saharan Africa - Page 65 Bruno Charbonneau - 2008 - 189 pages - Preview Their fundamental role should not be underestimated, but the cornerstone of the French security apparatus in Africa was the rapid intervention forces stationed in France. French bases in Africa are positioned near airports and harbours ... books.google.com
--------------------------------------------
Over the years France and Libya have been entangled in several ways. DO you have any info on this? What happened to French friendship or collaboration after all the oil and arms sales connections over the years?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
I think the only way South Africa could compete against those kinds of numbers of f-16s they would have to be equipped with F-22 Raptors.
That said, if all the planes were in the air at one time facing each over a wide area and the South African Airforce had F-22s which carry 5 missiles apiece, I think, and they all hit their targets then that means only 75 F-16s destroyed. But this assumes the F-16s haven't fired any missiles of their own at the F-22s.
Even if the F-16 pilots were *ambushed,* and I can't see how that could happen with all the sophisticated electronics on board, then the F-22s have no where to hide from the remaining 165 F-16s after exhausting their missiles on the 75 destroyed F-16s. Presumably some of the F-16s have a missile or two left.
Speaking of F-16s, they have ''guns'', the Raptors don't, or so I've read from unofficial sources. Plus the F-16s are more maneuverable. So in this case sheer numbers will definitely do the trick.
But, if the Egyptians are dumbassess piloting the F-16s and their command and control continue to send up 75 F-16s to compete against the Raptors on a daily basis and they didn't catch on after about three trips up losing 225 planes then yes the South Africans will prevail--if they are using F22s that is.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
You're also taking The Explorer road? Such a shame.
Why can't you admit that Egypt's Air Force 2011 and not 1970 can wipe the floor clean with SAAF with their measely 15 Fighters and 34 measely combat pilots. Maybe they have Master Jedi Zulu wid dem.
Cha!
Oh yeah, you are that idiot who dismissed a fourth generation fighter [the Gripen] as a useless craft, supposedly out favor for a third generation fighter [F16], that is actually on its way out of use in its country of origin. A keen insight into how the military world ticks is clearly not your thing. You approach the topic with a kindergarten-like mindset. Do yourself a favor and just stick to cheerleading the ragtag opposition rebels.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman:
I think the only way South Africa could compete against those kinds of numbers of f-16s they would have to be equipped with F-22 Raptors.
The South African air force is currently refurbishing its equipment at the moment, and so, very few new aircraft are in their possession, aside from the already completed delivery of a new generation of dual trainer-fighter BAE Hawk jets. At the moment they are relying on the Cheetah C fighter jets, which are determined to be just as capable, if not even more, as the F-16s. The Cheetah C EW suit is so sophisticated that elements of it will be incorporated into the South African Gripen. The Gripen is more than capable of handling the job you are describing above, and its far lighter than the F-22 raptor, if memory serves me correctly. Word is that the South African Gripen is more sophisticated than the Swedish air force examples, because a major part of its EW suite is locally designed and produced, which will undoubtedly be on the classified list, along with its outfitting with a stock of highly potent locally designed and produced armament. South African leaders figure they don't need that many combat aircraft [i.e. more than 34 active fighters] at the moment, based on realistic estimations of external threat against their nation. In the past, the still limited amount of fighters were maintained only for use against Africans by the apartheid state. Believe me, if they actually thought they were more than like to always be under great threat, they'd swell the number of fighters in their military possession. They have the technology and means to do this if and when it is deemed necessary. Word is that South African air force is the world's second oldest independent air force!
Rookies never take into consideration that a country with a fairly well-developed and self-reliant military industry has to be a military power, because the arms industry is not like other industries. More often than not, these industries are highly protected by and subsidized by governments much more so than any other sector of industry. There are even highly competitive government sponsored espionage going on in this sector of industry, and can be cause for war, if one country deems that its secrets have been violated! Unlike some other sectors of industry, governments actually do the bidding for military ware, which means more often than not, an arms sales is politically driven.
Rookies just don't understand these issues, and so, do stupid things like simplifying military might into a competition of "headcount", never mind the quality of technology and capacity of local military industry, and comparing the sector to wine or soft drink production, LOL.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Report: US, Egypt providing military training to Libya rebels
Washington - US and Egyptian special forces are providing military training to rebels in Libya, according to Al Jazeera broadcaster on Saturday.
South African National Defence Force in crisis Date: 6 April 2010
The South African National Defence Force (SANDF), once by far the most effective in Sub-Saharan Africa, is in danger of becoming moribund. The effects of 20 years of underfunding are visible in the Department of Defence's (DoD's) current three-year strategic plan, which reflects armed forces incapable of major operations and clearly in decline.
In March 2009 parliament's Joint Standing Committee on Defence warned that the SANDF was in a "downward spiral of becoming inadequate to fulfil its constitutional mandate". Analysis of the strategic plan confirms it.
The army can field one mechanised brigade; five battalions for peacekeeping, border protection and internal security; and an under-strength parachute battalion group as a defence force reserve. The navy has two frigates, a submarine, a support ship and about four smaller vessels operational. The air force will not have an effective fighter capability until well after 2012 and has only six attack helicopters operational. Airlift is limited to about four 1960s-vintage C-130s and some modernised 1940s-vintage C-47s. Only the air force's helicopter and liaison components are properly equipped.
This is hardly adequate for a country with the largest economy in Africa, and the 30th largest in the world, and that is expected to play a major regional security role. The reality is underscored by a 'selective engagement' policy, defined in the strategic plan to mean that "the SANDF will execute all the prescribed missions, but will be selective in terms of the extent to which operations and tasks emanating from these missions will be executed. This concept implies that appreciated risks will have to be taken".
Quite apart from being under-strength for its responsibilities, the SANDF cannot with present funding train properly, maintain its equipment and facilities or pay acceptable salaries. The result is an accelerating decline in effectiveness and in morale, the latter reflected by the drain of key personnel and the violent demonstration by some 2,000 soldiers in November 2009 over poor pay and living conditions in bases that were not properly maintained.
Perhaps the most startling illustration of under-funding is that the air force will only have 550 flying hours for its fighter force this year and 250 hours in each of the next two, just when it planned to 'work up' on the new Gripen; lead-in fighter training on the Hawk has been cut from 4,000 hours to 2,000. The South African Air Force (SAAF) had planned the Gripen to be fully operational by 2012, but that is now clearly unattainable. The transport, helicopter and maritime components are hardly better off and the precipitate decision to cancel the acquisition of the A400M transport aircraft leaves the SAAF without a C-130 replacement plan.
The strategic plan does not give total sea day figures, but reveals that the navy will have only 10,000 operational hours at sea (9,000 per year thereafter) to patrol South Africa's 2,800 km coast and enormous exclusive economic zone. Inadequate funding has also limited fuel for sea training days and made it difficult to procure spares. The army's situation is aggravated by funding that allows only one brigade exercise per year - and that with a 'brigade minus'. It will also struggle to fund re-equipment. For example, it can only acquire 264 new infantry combat vehicles against an actual requirement for more than 1,000 and several key projects, have been delayed by years.
Other issues
Quite apart from under-funding, the SANDF is also being hurt by inadequate strategic direction, which was highlighted in March by a Treasury official briefing parliament's Standing Committee on Public Accounts. He said the strategic plan set no "strategic goals and objectives", lacked "high-level focus on the desired outcomes", lacked any "credible vision of what the defence force should be doing" and that the "operational plans at the lower levels focused on support functions rather than the core strategic objectives and responsibilities". He suggested the DoD should "have military strategists who are not civilians" and who would be able to "formulate a new vision". That goes to a root problem: the Defence Secretariat has not been effective since its establishment in 1995. Few senior civil servants had defence experience and political appointments saw people with neither defence nor civil service experience placed into key posts.
One result was the attempt to update the 1997/98 Defence Review, which produced a document that blithely skipped over core strategic issues, ignored already approved army and navy force designs and contained errors of fact. It was rejected by both the Standing Committee and the defence minister, who instructed that a new paper be drafted, this time involving the services in the process.
The ultimate roots of the problem lie in the Defence White Paper of 1996, which was drafted by advisers with naïve notions of international politics and little understanding of defence and who focused on peripheral issues. The Defence Review was led by the same advisers and focused almost entirely on fitting the shrinking budget, with no regard to likely missions. At the same time the SANDF was 're-engineered' along business principles. That mistake is being reversed, but the fundamental problems of vague policy, even vaguer strategy and a dysfunctional Secretariat remain.
The SANDF continues to suffer from self-destructive personnel management focused on gender and racial quotas to the near exclusion of practical requirements. It is unable or unwilling to dispense with dishonest and incompetent officers, which has driven out experienced white officers and demoralises black officers, who are frustrated and compromised by the incompetents. Their morale is not helped by often rather frank remarks of officers from other African forces, such as: "Why do you have these people on your courses? Do they not embarrass you?"
The situation is not terminal. The SANDF has highly competent officers and non-commissioned officers (NCOs); its young officers are keen; its soldiers have mostly performed well in peacekeeping operations. However, there is an urgent need for clear direction and leadership from the Cabinet, indeed from the president, to spell out what the SANDF will be expected to do and to support commanders who insist on discipline and on merit. And government must provide funding commensurate with the tasking. The best soldiers in the world cannot win wars without adequate training and equipment.
Many senior officers are optimistic that the new Cabinet will turn things around, but there is not much time - perhaps three or four years. After that the situation might become irretrievable.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The only person that got schooled is you fool. Now focus and don't let your mind wander; it's far too small to be let out on its own. Why have you not yet come up with proof of your "kickass" theory? What's taking you so long?
No theories or outdated information that is relevant to the 50s/60s/70s, just facts, you do know what fact is?. SAAF has only 9 Trained pilots, with 3 more coming up.
Combat pilots - secret's out Date: 19 November 2010
Pretoria - The air force's "secret" about the number of qualified Gripen fighter pilots was recently made public in great detail by its own officers during a briefing.
The sudden secrecy regarding the numbers is probably the result of the growing persecution complex, which has been siphoning downward from the defence ministry, experts said on Thursday.
During a recent visit to 2 Squadron at the Makhado air force base, where the Gripens are based, the air force held a comprehensive briefing regarding its fighter pilots.
Brigadier General John Bayne, director of combat systems in the air force explained at the first solo flight of locally-trained Gripen pilots that the first six South African pilots were trained by the SAAB aviation and defence company in Sweden.
SAAB is the manufacturer of the Gripens.
Lieutenant Colonel Musa Mbhokota, the squadron's operations officer, said at the same occasion that the squadron will train a further three Gripen pilots next year.
Coincidentally, Mbhokota is one of the six who were trained in Sweden.
Solo flights
On this occasion three pilots, including the first female Gripen pilot, and a navigator conducted their first solo flights.
This brings the total number of trained pilots to nine, with another three to follow next year.
Brigadier General Wiseman Mbambo of the air force refused to say how many pilots there are at a Parliamentary briefing on Wednesday.
He said such a disclosure would involve "a threat to national security".
Lately similar excuses have been offered by the defence ministry as the reason why details about VIP flights and those of President Jacob Zuma also can't be disclosed.
According to military expert Helmoed-Römer Heitman, it is clear that the air force has no policy regarding what is classified and what not.
"Senior officers now look like fools because there's no proper, logical policy regarding what they are allowed to say. In this case they might be a little embarrassed to say there are only nine Gripen pilots.
"It's almost like a revival of the era of General Magnus Malan (former minister of defence) when no-one was allowed to release information without permission.
"Under Mosiuoa Lekota (former minister of defence) this practice gained new momentum, and now it appears to be common practice to avoid uncomfortable answers by invoking 'national security'," Heitman said.
Bayne said at a recent briefing that the air force has already received 16 of the 26 Gripens on order.
The most important factor in having capable Air Force combat pilots is training which means flight hours. Poor SAAF can't afford to pay for fligt hours. So SAAF has a measely number of fighter jets and undertrained combat pilots.
Air force, navy 'just for show' Date: 4 March 2010
The expensive Gripen fighter jets, frigates and submarines which cost South African taxpayers billions of rands will mainly be on the ground and in port over the next three years, because there's no money to operate them.
The DA has called this a disgrace, while the department of defence's excuse is that its budget is hopelessly inadequate.
According to the department's strategic plan for the next three years, which was submitted to Parliament on Wednesday, their budgeting allows for the following:
- That the Gripens will spend 550 hours in flight in the current financial year, after which this will be scaled down to 250 flight hours per year for the next two years; and
- That the navy's 18 ships will have 10 000 hours at sea in 2011-2012 and 9 000 hours at sea per year in 2012 and 2013.
Operational capabilities
DA MP David Maynier said at a meeting between the parliamentary portfolio committee for defence and the department that it's clear "the defence force is being stripped of its operational capabilities".
"Look at maritime defence: Taking into account what we have at our disposal and the hours at sea which have been budgeted for, the navy's ships will spend 23 days at sea and 328 days in port. Perhaps eight ships - including the frigates at the submarines - would be more realistic: That would mean they'd spend 55 days at sea and 299 in port.
"Concerning the air force: We have 11 Gripens and 550 flight hours available this year, which means they are flying less than half of the hours required to comply with Nato (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation) standards. Most of these hours will be used during the 2010 World Cup, and between July and the end of the financial year, these fighter jets will be standing in their hangars," he said.
"It gets worse in the following years: Once all 26 Gripens have been delivered, they'll spend an average of 9.6 hours in flight per year."
Helmoed-Römer Heitman, a defence expert, described this budget as ludicrous and said if this is the way the navy and air force are run, the defence force might as well shut its doors.
According to him, Nato requires that fighter pilots log 20 flight hours per month (240 flight hours per year per fighter pilot, compared to the air force's budget of 550 flight hours) to remain operationally functional.
Bought for show
"According to these standards our air force is only barely going to be able to keep two fighter pilots in business.
"As far as our navy is concerned, it is now clear that the frigates and submarines were only bought for show."
Thabang Makwetla, deputy minister of defence, said it isn't the department's fault and that the problem lies with the inadequate defence budget.
According to Professor Renfrew Christie from the University of the Western Cape, South Africa is currently spending about 1.2% of its gross domestic product (GDP) on defence, compared to 4.5% in 1989.
The World Bank recommends that a functional defence force should be allocated no less than 2% of the GDP.
No theories or outdated information that is relevant to the 50s/60s/70s, just facts, you do know what fact is?. SAAF has only 9 Trained pilots, with 3 more coming up. [Big Grin]
What facts do you have?
lol... you can't wriggle away no matter how you try. I already gave the detailed 2006 assessment. You are not fooling anyone. Why are you taking so long to prove your "kick-ass" theory? Could it be that you can't and are trying to bluster your way out with empty repetition? Why are you taking so long?
And you can;t even keep your clams straight. In one post you say:
"On paper South African Air Force has only 34 combat pilots and 15 Swedish fighter jets. On paper Egypt has 240 F-16 upgraded fighter jets. In reality what do you think the outcome of those two Air Forces going head to head? Let's get this out the way first."
but up above you now say:
" SAAF has only 9 Trained pilots, with 3 more coming up. [Big Grin]"
You are so incompetent you can't even put forward a coherent set of data.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The article refers to 9 qualified GRIPPEN pilots not the entire SAAF. Even in basic reading comprehension your competence seems questionable.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by Exilled:
No theories or outdated information that is relevant to the 50s/60s/70s, just facts, you do know what fact is?. SAAF has only 9 Trained pilots, with 3 more coming up. [Big Grin]
What facts do you have?
lol... you can't wriggle away no matter how you try. I already gave the detailed 2006 assessment. You are not fooling anyone. Why are you taking so long to prove your "kick-ass" theory? Could it be that you can't and are trying to bluster your way out with empty repetition? Why are you taking so long?
And you can;t even keep your clams straight. In one post you say:
"On paper South African Air Force has only 34 combat pilots and 15 Swedish fighter jets. On paper Egypt has 240 F-16 upgraded fighter jets. In reality what do you think the outcome of those two Air Forces going head to head? Let's get this out the way first."
but up above you now say:
" SAAF has only 9 Trained pilots, with 3 more coming up. [Big Grin]"
You are so incompetent you can't even put forward a coherent set of data.
You're not only dishonest but also ignorant. The only “wiggling” is by you and those attempting to hold on to the fallacy that SAAF is better than EAF. SAAF has 34 total combat pilots out of 60 full positions. BUT only 9 (10) or so who are fully trained to pilot the Gripen Fighter jets. You know, or do I have to remind you, the entire basis of this argument is 15 (16) Gripen vs 220 F-16s. You and your lot are deaf, dumb and blind and will dishonestly cling on to fallacies, despite the overwhelming evidence that prove otherwise. What the hell is up with that, such a damned mentality.
Fact is South Africa has a POS air force, and making “components" does not change this fact. The fact is your dishonesty/ignorance does not change the fact that South Africa has only 1 measly Fighter Aircraft squadron to Egypt's 22 Squadrons. The fact is what Egypt did prior to 1980 has no bearing whatsoever on today's reality. Egypt transformed from basically a Russian tactic airforce, to an America tactic Air force. Hundreds of Egyptians officers train every year in some of the most prestigious military academies in the US. The fact is EAF is under the wing of the greatest military nation on the planet, they now employ American fighting tactics. The Russian air fighting strategies they used prior to 1980 are history. You still can't accept this fact. Different air craft, different training, they are trained now in basically the same type of tactics that the US/Israel/UK uses. But you are still basing your arguement on the past.
The fact is Egypt's Air Force with US training and joint missions, quality and quantity of fighter aircraft makes it the best Air Force in all Africa and entire Middle East (after Israel). Fact is the SAAF admits it's own weakness, and while it was once formidable, South Africans themselves joke that anyone can literally “waltz in” now. But you can remain ignorant and remain dishonest, It's become a a tradmark of certain members including yourself. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Some interesting readings for the dishonest/delusional/ignoramuses.
The South African Air Force currently musters 23 operational fighter aircrew. The Ministry of Defence says the flying service musters 10 Gripen aircrew (eight pilots, two navigators) and 13 Hawk aircrew, all pilots.
Last November Sisulu stated the SAAF had 60 posts for combat pilots, of which 34 were filled at the time and 26 were vacant. The number relates to the total of fighters the SAAF should operate by 2012: 24 BAE Systems Mk120 Hawk lead-in fighter trainers and 26 SAAB Gripen advanced light fighter aircraft, the former with 85 Combat Flying School and the latter with 2 Squadron, both co-located at Air Force Base Makhado in Limpopo. This amounts to 50 aircraft. To date, all 24 Hawk have been delivered and 15 of the Gripen.
To solo on the Gripen should typically take new pilots five years, 2 Squadron's operations officer, Lt Col Musa “Midnite” Mbhokota told journalists in October. This includes basic military training (three months), officers forming course (a further three months), the Military Academy (one year) and basic pilot training (one year). The latter includes 180 hours on the Pilatus PC7 MkII. Next follows some 390 hours on the Hawk at 85 CFS before posting to 2 Squadron where conversion to the Gripen takes place, starting with six weeks in the classroom followed by 70 hours on the Squadron Level Mission Trainer (a flight simulator) and a further 70 hours on the aircraft. Both periods include 30 hours of conversion training, 20 hours of air warfare training and 20 hours of surface warfare training. It then takes a further six sorties to solo.
At the same briefing, to mark the graduation of the first locally qualified Gripen fighter pilots, officers told reporters the squadron mustered three locally qualified pilots and six qualified in Sweden, making for nine. Three more were expected to qualify next year.
In response to a question by Freedom Front Plus MP Pieter Groenewald, tabled in Parliament yesterday, the military added two of the current Gripen pilot cadre are black men, one is an Indian male, one a white female and the remaining six are white males. The Hawk aircrew comprises 11 white men and two black males.
In addition, 21 Hawk aircrew are under training - 17 as pilots and four as navigators. The racial breakdown is given as nine black males, one Indian male, one Coloured male, nine white males and 1 white female.
The Explorer or Henry, do you disagree with the below as it is narrowly defined?
My comments:
quote:''That said, if all the planes were in the air at one time facing each over a wide area and the South African Airforce had F-22s which carry 5 missiles apiece, I think, and they all hit their targets then that means only 75 F-16s destroyed. But this assumes the F-16s haven't fired any missiles of their own at the F-22s.
Even if the F-16 pilots were *ambushed,* and I can't see how that could happen with all the sophisticated electronics on board, then the F-22s have no where to hide from the remaining 165 F-16s after exhausting their missiles on the 75 destroyed F-16s. Presumably some of the F-16s have a missile or two left.
Speaking of F-16s, they have ''guns'', the Raptors don't, or so I've read from unofficial sources. Plus the F-16s are more maneuverable. So in this case sheer numbers will definitely do the trick.
But, if the Egyptians are dumbassess piloting the F-16s and their command and control continue to send up 75 F-16s to compete against the Raptors on a daily basis and they didn't catch on after about three trips up losing 225 planes then yes the South Africans will prevail--if they are using F22s that is.''
And I will agree the F-16 is on the way out, unless retrofitted to perform duties like the Fa-18 Hornet from a few years ago.
That said I can't speculate on the Grippen fighter in the same scenario above, and for that matter, any of the above planes I mentioned re their ''hidden talents'' except to say what I've read over the years which isn't much. But from the aerial engagement mentioned above it seems to me sheer numbers will have to win in *this* instance.
If the Grippen fighter is or will be much more advanced than any major player in the armament industry in the very near future then in order for the scenario above to *not* work the Grippen will undoubtedly have to triple or nearly quadruple its tracking and numbers of missile-firing capabilities to severely reduce the number of F-16s in the battle above to more than even the playing field.
Keep in mind I'm not favoring the F-16 at all, just the numbers against the opposition in that particular battle as decribed by me.
Posted by adelly (Member # 14574) on :
Abdel fatah younis live libya on aje
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yemen continues to kill protesters yet American aid continues. The US is making it more difficult for you western apologists to argue they are oh so concerned about protecting Libyan citizens and spreading freedom there. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Given that the Yemen is probably holiday destination #1 with Al Qaeda right now, the US is going to do all they can to keep a stable government in and keep buttering their toast. Are you nuts? What do you suggest as an alternative?
Is there a moral argument for intervention? Sure. Would it harm US interests to intervene? Most likely. It all boils back to Obama's speech about weighing the two up against each other - the first priority is always going to be number 1. Meh, don't know why I'm even wasting my time.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Exilled says: You're not only dishonest but also ignorant. The only “wiggling” is by you and those attempting to hold on to the fallacy that SAAF is better than EAF. SAAF has 34 total combat pilots out of 60 full positions. BUT only 9 (10) or so who are fully trained to pilot the Gripen Fighter jets. You know, or do I have to remind you, the entire basis of this argument is 15 (16) Gripen vs 220 F-16s. You and your lot are deaf, dumb and blind and will dishonestly cling on to fallacies, despite the overwhelming evidence that prove otherwise. What the hell is up with that, such a damned mentality.
Your aren't fooling anyone. I never said the SAAF was "better" than the EAF. I said that bigger aircraft numbers do not necessarily translate into the "assured" victories in aerial warfare that you claim - and provided several historical examples why, including current data that shows Egypt's current reliance on numbers is flawed. You still are trying to escape your dismal failure to prove your big-best or (lol) "kick-ass" = best theory. Why are you ducking and dodging? WHat's taking you so long to prove your precious "kick-ass" theory?
Now you are trying to backtrack to cover your incompetence. First you wave around the 34 pilots then you say it is 9 pilots in the entire SAAF. Exposed in incompetence, you have resorted to a "red herring" strategy. NO, the entire basis of this argument is not 15 Grippens vs 220 F-16s. The basis is what you have been trying to avoid- namely your claim that big "kick-ass" numbers automatically mean assured victory. They don't.
Fact is South Africa has a POS air force, and making “components" does not change this fact. The fact is your dishonesty/ignorance does not change the fact that South Africa has only 1 measly Fighter Aircraft squadron to Egypt's 22 Squadrons. The fact is what Egypt did prior to 1980 has no bearing whatsoever on today's reality. Egypt transformed from basically a Russian tactic airforce, to an America tactic Air force. Hundreds of Egyptians officers train every year in some of the most prestigious military academies in the US. The fact is EAF is under the wing of the greatest military nation on the planet, they now employ American fighting tactics. The Russian air fighting strategies they used prior to 1980 are history. You still can't accept this fact. Different air craft, different training, they are trained now in basically the same type of tactics that the US/Israel/UK uses. But you are still basing your arguement on the past.
I have made no 'component' argument that SAF beats EAF. Take that up with Explorer if you think he made such an argument. I have said this though and will say it again- indigenous component development is ONE of the factors bearing on a successful air campaign, as Israel has proved. It is not the ONLY one. There are many OTHER such factors, but you keep naively insisting that numbers are all, your so-called "kick-ass" numbers. And yet, you have failed to provide any credible proof of your theory. What's taking you so long? Why are you ducking and dodging on proving your own "kick-ass" theory, that you so boldly proclaimed?
As for "basing my argument on the past", where else does one get empirical evidence to support a position but on established data? Why do you think every military in the world studies past campaigns? They do so to identify mistakes to avoid, and lessons learned for the future. Your implied notion that the past doesn't count is hilarious. If the past doesn't count, why do you yourself keep bringing up the 1980s developments implemented by the EAF? You keep saying, no no do not look back, then you do the same thing. Your arguments and approach are inconsistent. And I have already given the 2006 Defense assessment shoiwng where that one CURRENT central weakness of the EAF is a reliance on numbers, and not enough proficieny in the OTHER factors that make for air success.
I long ago "accepted as fact" changes in the EAF. Who doesn't? And who doesn't accept that the EAF has much greater numbers? Saying people are "denying" these obvious facts is a desperate strawman. Via paper numbers, the EAF is superior. This is news? But there are OTHER factors besides numbers, that shape air campaigns. A modernized or big EAF is not the crucial issue. We all know the EAF is no longer flying MiG-17s and that it has big numbers. The crucial issue is whether such big "kick-ass" numbers automatically translate into victory against an opponent, including SAAF. As I have repeatedly shown, big numbers do not mean automatic victory. Arab wars against Israel prove my point. In Yom Kippur the Arabs could field about 800 jet planes compared to about 400 by Israel (Addington 1994). According to your theory of "kickass" numbers, they should have won. They did'nt. Now why is that? In the Battle of Britian, the Luftwaffe outnumbered England overall by about 4 to 1 in aircraft. According to your "kickass" numbers theory they should have one because of the "kickass" numbers. They didn't. WHy are you taking so long in proving your "kick-ass" notion? Where is your empirical evidence?
And your simple number to numbers comparison is naive. A great deal depends on the tactical sitaution or objective. Over Vietnam the US possessed air superiority, and superior numbers, but about 95% of its combat losses were to LAND based guns and missiles. Communist planes accounted for only about 4% of the almost 2,000 US aircraft lost in combat. This again shows us that mere numbers, even by a superpower do not tell us everything about an aerial campaign.
Communist forces husbanded and hoarded their relatively smaller Air Force, while still preserving a credible aerial threat, and let land-based systems do most of the killing. It was a very smart approach to take in terms of preserving their air capabilities. Why wouldn't the SAAF do likewise in any theoretical conflict- lure EAF on to a land-defense umbrella where guns and missles decimate its aircraft, then pop up to finish off survivors, decoy more to their doom, or attack when conditions were very favorable such as when the EAF pilots were running out of fuel? There is no rule that says the SAAF must conveniently line up all their planes like Boy Scouts on Day 1 for a dogfight. Why do you assume this? Why would any sane air commander do this if he were outnumbered 10 to 1?
There are OTHER, repeat, OTHER factors that shape air campaigns not the naive "kick-ass" number theory you keep promoting.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Given that the Yemen is probably holiday destination #1 with Al Qaeda right now, the US is going to do all they can to keep a stable government in and keep buttering their toast. Are you nuts? What do you suggest as an alternative?
Is there a moral argument for intervention? Sure. Would it harm US interests to intervene? Most likely. It all boils back to Obama's speech about weighing the two up against each other - the first priority is always going to be number 1. Meh, don't know why I'm even wasting my time.
So instability (i.e. taking sides with al queda elements in a civil war) in Libya is a better option? You were one of dumb ones who thought it was going to be all over in a couple of days with army going over to the girls in Benghazi... until there was a need for a no fly zone, then arms to "rebels", then agents to train said "rebels". So there you have it, both sides hardening and arming...in fact the "opposition" cant even agree amongst themselves...a future holiday destination for al queda? another failed state in the making like Iraq. You are the dumbest of American apologists.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
What 'al qaeda' elements? Was there a 'whisper' was there? Ah right. That'll be why they bailed out then. Nothing to do with wanting to be re-elected for a second term and not needing a long term bombing campaign and the accompanying expense hanging over his head to put off the voters? Nah. It was all because there was a whisper. I'll believe you...
Instability is better than what would have happened in Benghazi that day if no one from the outside had lifted a finger. You don't sound clever calling them 'girls' you know. It doesn't make you appear a smartass. What's the most courageous thing you ever did, huh? Stay up all night playing World of Warcraft?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
There could be a number of factors why they "bailed out", an upcoming election is surely one of them. The rest of your post is typical BS "preemptive strike" argument used to justify what is now an obviously stupid decision to go to war with Libya.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
As you like. You see it as such, I don't. There is no war with Libya. There is a war for Libya against one fruit loop and a bunch of just-about-ares but soon to be has-beens.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: There is no war with Libya. There is a war for Libya
Thanks for reminding me that I should reread my copy of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four ..."no war with Libya"...LOL!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
You know what I mean.
So what would you suggest should have happened? No intervention? The west should have backed up Gadaffi? Minded their own? What?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:So what would you suggest should have happened?
Mind your own fuking business. That would have helped...and would have been alot cheaper I might add. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
So what you doing here?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"Rebel" on CNN complains they dont have arms and leadership. This is odd, I thought they had a "government" that Italy, Qatar et al. recognized? LMAO!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
"I never said the SAAF was "better" than the EAF."
"WHat's taking you so long to prove your precious "kick-ass" theory?"
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
How about the Egyptian equivalent of these OEMs?...
Mine-resistant Vehicles or MRAPs...
So far, more than 1 600 RG31s have been supplied to the US armed forces through GDLS-C, with another 566 supplied to the American military under separate contracts...
Land Systems South Africa’s current vehicle range comprises the RG12 protected police vehicle, the RG31 Mrap, the RG32M light armoured and mine hardened vehicle, the RG34 multipurpose armoured and mine- protected vehicle (all of these being 4 × 4 designs), and the RG35 6 × 6 multipurpose armoured and mine protected fighting vehicle as well as the RG41 8 × 8 armoured combat vehicle. There is also the jeep-type unarmoured Wasp 4 × 4 light reconnaissance vehicle. The company also designed and developed the RG33 Mrap, which comes in 4 × 4 and 6 × 6 versions and which is manufactured in North America, for the US armed forces.
Customers for RG range vehicles include Canada (RG31), Finland (RG32M), Ireland (RG32M), Italy (RG31), Sweden (RG32M), the United Arab Emirates (RG31) and the United Nations (RG31), as well as the US (RG31 and RG33). Predecessors of the RG range, such as the Mamba, are in service in South Africa. - Engineering News, - Engineering News, 11th February 2011 .
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
This is for the delusional clown who upholds Egyptian superiority. What Egyptian equivalents of these technologies come to mind? for starters...
The ability to marry west European craft with Russian technology...
The first major contract involved the re-engining of the Mirage F1 Fighter with the Klimov RD33 engine used in the Mig 29 fighter. - Aerosud
Production of submarine EW suite and submarine periscopes, night-vision goggles, laser rangefinders, etc...
19 April 2008
Following Denel’s recent restructuring, Eloptro (www.eloptro.co.za) is now part of Denel Optronics, which also includes many activities from the previous Kentron. As in this series we have covered Kentron as an entity under the old structure, this article refers to Eloptro as it was, and its main activities at its Kempton Park site. Eloptro was established in 1974 with funding from Armscor and technical assistance and transfer of key people from the CSIR’s Optical Sciences Division.
The product range offered by Eloptro, a Denel company whose activities were significantly curtailed following the end of the apartheid era; include submarine periscopes, laser rangefinders and laser target designators. Eloptro used to produce second generation image intensifiers together with a full range of night vision products for the then SADF. These products included riflescopes, goggles, observation sights, driverscopes and night vision devices for fire control.
There are only a small group of countries (and companies) where submarine periscopes are produced. These countries include the UK, the USA, France, Germany, Russia and now South Africa. South Africa required such a facility to upgrade the obsolete periscopes on its old Daphne submarines and so a state-of-the-art periscope facility, including a vertical test tower, was constructed at its site.
After the Daphne project was completed, the company found that a large number of other countries (mainly in South America) also required such upgrades, and Eloptro adopted this business and became a submarine upgrade facility, a unique niche as the other manufacturers in the world did not want such business, preferring to sell new periscopes! 'Upgrading' incidentally, includes a complete redesign and improvement of the optical system, integration of a passive rangefinder, television display capability (day and night), attachment of a still camera to the periscope and continued logistic support.
When the major arms purchases came about, Zeiss used the opportunity to form an alliance with Eloptro for the design and manufacture of new periscopes for the U-109 boats. The units for our submarines will be constructed here and Zeiss will pass orders on to Eloptro for other vessels of this class.
Eloptro's 'Nightowl' laser designator is integrated into the Rooivalk attack helicopter.
More recently, the company constructed a state-of-the-art manufacturing and assembly facility for laser designators. This facility includes a 250 m² Class 100 cleanroom and a 300 m² Class 100 000 cleanroom with integrated laminar flow design. The reason for this is a project named 'Brightstar' - where Eloptro has a major contract to manufacture laser designators for an overseas company.
Eloptro manufactures both standard and eye-safe laser rangefinders. The standard product is the LM30 which was specifically designed for integration into the gunner and commander sights of armoured vehicles. The LM30 uses the standard Nd:YAG laser rangefinder, powered by the vehicle itself and provides ranging from 300 to 10 000 m. The equivalent eye-safe product is the LP16 module that has been designed for integration in airborne, naval or land-based optronic systems and it uses a single-pulse erbium-glass laser operating at 1,54 μm. Range is 80 to 20 500 m with a range resolution of 5 m and a standard measuring rate of one measurement every six seconds. For short periods, this can be increased to one measurement every three seconds.
Eloptro also offers a range of handheld eyesafe laser rangefinders, these being the LH 40, LH40C and LH41C. All of these products have a range of 80 to 20 500 m with a resolution of 5 m. The LH40CF and LH41C have built-in digital magnetic compass with an accuracy in azimuth and elevation of ±0,5 and ±0,2° respectively. These two models also have an RS232 interface as compared with the RS422 for the LH40. The 40C and 41C are compatible with GPS with different standards. There are also differences in the tripod interface for the three devices. Sales of these laser rangefinders have been very successful in Europe.
The latest laser device from Eloptro is the Eagle Eye target acquisition binocular. This system has a 7 x 42 binocular with an integrated eyesafe laser with a measurement range of 80 to 20 km. The binocular itself has a built in laser filter to combat 1,06 μm radiation. Integrated with the system are a digital compass, GPS, a digital camera and a voice recorder. The compass has an azimuth and elevation accuracy of 0,6° and 0,2° respectively. The GPS is of SPS type with an integrated receiver antenna. The digital camera offers a 640 x 480 line resolution and a field of view of 1,16° x 0,87°. Video output can be NTSC or PAL. The voice recorder allows 15 seconds of audio to be stored with each photograph. Eloptro hopes that the Eagle Eye will be even more popular in Europe than even its standard range of eyesafe laser rangefinders.
Eloptro offers optical design services and has the capability of producing spherical lenses, prisms and mirrors from visible or IR materials. A fully-equipped precision mechanical workshop is available to produce mounting components or optical system bodies. A wide range of coating plants can produce anti-reflection coatings, beamsplitters, filters and metal-coated mirrors.
Eloptro has now been combined with Kentron's previous Cumulus activity and the group responsible for the wide range of KENIS thermal imagers which operate in the 3 to 5 μm waveband. These cameras incorporate an integrated Stirling cooler and the standard KENIS has a dual field of view of 2,25 μ x 3 μ (narrow) and 13,5 μ x 18 μ (wide).
Today, Denel Optronic Systems (DOS) consists of the activities of the previous Kentron Cumulus, Eloptro and the Kenis thermal imaging cameras activity. The portion previously known as 'Eloptro' is charged with designing and manufacturing optical systems as required by the rest of the group. - Dataweek
Conversion of Boeing 707s into Electronic Warfare/drag & hose tankers...
"The system was developed by little-known South African electronic warfare specialists Sysdel, which also developed equipment for the SAAF's electronic intelligence configured Boeing 707."
"The same firm [Grintek] was involved in the conversion of two SAAF Boeing 707s for COMINT operations in the early 1990s. One of these was also displayed for the first time at the show."
"The 707 COMINT aircraft displayed featured a palletised Grintek signals processing suite with four multifunction operator consoles and a twin display command console." - Flight International, September, 2000.
Navigation and EW systems of fighter aircraft and helicopters...
The new Hawk Navigation and Weapon System (NWS), the first of its type to be developed outside the United Kingdom, has required numerous software developments (especially algorithms in real time) in order to meet international standards (critical safety Level A, critical mission Level B). The software developed specifically for the Hawk aircraft has been certified by BAe Systems and Armscor.
ATE has also developed a new cockpit for the Hawk Mk 50/60 which is based on proven technology currently mounted on the Mk 120.
Equipped with ATE’s new system, the Hawk has become an advanced trainer aircraft for combat pilots, providing the latest generation sophisticated systems. In addition to the advanced training capacity, the new Hawk also has certain multirole fighter functions of a latest generation fighter aircraft.
24 Hawk Mk 120 systems have been delivered to the South African Air Force
A new system which can be integrated on the complete Hawk family of aircraft and which can be adapted in various configurations depending on the aircraft type: Hawk 60, 100 or 200 series.
The new Hawk 50/60 cockpit was presented to a delegation of Hawk users in Oman. - ATE
ATE has designed a modern avionics system for the C-130. To do this a dynamic simulation bench was used during the Man Machine Interface (MMI) design phase.
Concretely, this dynamic simulation bench makes it possible to evaluate and qualify the MMI before proceeding with flight testing. This approach was intentionally adopted to ensure that pilots could accept the proposed functional definition right from the start of the programme. - ATE
The upgrading of the Navigation and Weapon System (NWS) for the Mirage F1 was the first NATO contract for ATE.
ATE was selected by Thales (then Thomson CSF) for this contract for the Spanish Air Force.
ATE was responsible for the development, integration and production of the new NWS, alongside other major industrial partners, such as SABCA Belgium (Flight Testing) and CASA Spain (Fleet Embodiment).
The development of bombing algorithms in real time was specifically carried out by ATE in order to guarantee the accurate delivery of bombs. ATE established a successful transfer of technology which allowed its client to carry out future modifications to his system independently.
ATE has developed an upgrade concept for Mirage 5 aircraft constituting a new NWS, new radar and new 80km Beyond Visual Range missiles. - ATE
Systems for helicopters:
Denel Aviation’s Oryx helicopter with its Puma fuselage and Super Puma power plant is a military helicopter which has been in operation since 1989.
Started in 2008, the integration of the Oryx Communication Management System for the South African Air Force fleet involves:
• Tactical ECCM Communications (Voice and Data)
• Intercom functionality including use of caller groups
• Stored Speech, Warning and Caution Tones
• Tactical text and situational awareness messaging using the Link-ZA Protocol.
The building blocks created on this programme allows for its application on other helicopter - ATE
Multimission integration kit
The Helicopter Division has numerous cooperation programmes with leading helicopter manufacturing companies. One such programme is the SAWS (Stand Alone Weapon System), a multimission kit which can be integrated on any of the light to medium lift helicopters commercialised by Eurocopter.
This system includes:
• A day/night sighting system • A selection of unguided ballistic weapons • A selection of guided weapons (missiles and rockets), including the Ingwe missile Main functionalities of the Ingwe missile:
• Laser guidance • Effective range: 5000m • Target hit probability: greater than 90% • Missile weight : 27,5 kg
The HELLFIRE (SAL Semi-Active Laser) and Mokopa missiles are also an option of the SAWS kit. - ATE
Manufacture Tank Turrets and Towed and Self-propelled Artillery systems...
Turret systems:
Structural Design
Turret structures, weapon platforms and gun cradles are integral parts of the system control design and require state of the art design tools and capabilities. Denel Land Systems has successfully integrated these as well as Finite Element analysis (FEM), fatigue analysis and thermal analysis capabilities into its expert knowledge base and products...
Gun Drive Integration
Both electric and hydraulic gun drives have been successfully integrated with artillery, infantry, naval and armour turrets. These turret traverse and barrel elevation drives are specified and developed in conjunction with CWAT of Switzerland. System integration and assembly into the turrets are done at Denel Land Systems.
Project Management
Denel Land Systems skills to manage complex programs have been honed over many years. Thanks to the depth of its program management capabilities and state of the art management tools, Denel Land Systems has built an excellent track record to deliver on time and within budget.
Aiming, Pointing and Navigation Integration
Integrated fire control systems for stabilised turrets are specified and developed at Denel Land Systems. New systems have been developed that can be retrofitted to existing combat systems such as the T72 tank. The inertial gyro platforms required for the aiming and navigation of artillery systems are specified and developed in conjunction with Selex and Litef and integrated by Denel Land Systems. Fire Directing Systems are designed to be able to incorporate a range of Sight Systems.
Turret Management System
A proprietary Turret Management System, which is used to link diverse turret subsystems in a modular fashion, enables flexible turret configurations as cost-effective solutions. This affordable hardware forms the main building block of all Denel Land Systems armour, naval and infantry turrets. - Denel Land Systems
Towed and self-propelled artillery systems:
Weapon System Design and Integration
Denel Land Systems is a world leader in the design and manufacturing of towed and self-propelled artillery weapons, infantry systems, combat turrets and a range of infantry weapons. The capability to define, design and integrate these systems with small, medium and large calibre guns has been established over more than 30 years of practical experience and battlefield feedback. This has lead to world class products such as:
G5 155 mm towed Artillery system
G6 155 mm self-propelled Artillery system
Rooikat 76 mm and LMT 105 mm Armour combat turrets
Olifant 1B Optimised tank turret
12,7 mm, 20 mm, and 35 mm light combat turrets
35 mm Air defence and Naval turrets
The New Generation Infantry Combat Vehicle System (Badger)
A range of Infantry Weapons such as the SS77 General Purpose Machine Gun, 40mm Automatic Grenade Launcher, NTW 20 Anti-material Rifle, 60mm and 81mm Mortars
Main Weapon Design
Gun design experience, gained over the past 30 years, is now firmly established in the technological know-how and design capabilities at Denel Land Systems. These capabilities are applied over a wide spectrum of gun development, from 20mm to155 mm calibre. The elements related to Main Weapon design are:
Barrel design
Energy transfer and recoil systems
Cradle systems
Muzzle brake design
Breech and obturation systems
Ballistics
Cooling concepts
Dynamic simulation
Comprehensive test capabilities
Infantry Weapon Design
Infantry weapon design capability is firmly established in the technology and know-how gained over the years. These capabilities are applied over a wide spectrum of weapons development, such as:
Mini SS 5,56 Light Machine Gun
SS77 7,62 General Purpose Machine Gun
NTW 20 x 82mm and 110mm Anti Material Weapons
60mm and 81mm Mortar Systems variants
40mm Automatic Grenade Launcher (AGL) - Denel Land Systems.
....
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Here's a another question to stump the rookie with: What will happen to Egyptian American-made equipment, if the Muslim brotherhood were to assume power?
How about the Egyptian equivalent of these OEMs?...
South Africa’s acquisition of the Gripen fighter is far more than a plan just to buy new aircraft. Instead, the programme has become a carefully crafted vehicle to bring new skills, new capabilities and new opportunities across South Africa.
From the very beginning South Africa’s Gripens have been shaped by very clear national requirements. They were not bought ‘off the shelf’ or in a configuration dictated by the manufacturer. Project Systems Engineer Lt Col Mike Edwards explains, “we were involved in the Gripen programme from the earliest stages. We influenced the entire design process [of our aircraft] where we added our own requirements and made specific changes for South Africa.”
Col Chris Skinner, one of the two senior managers in the 10-strong South African Gripen Joint Project Team (GJPT) living and working Sweden, along with their families, is clear about how that development process is going. “We are here to make sure the user requirements are being met,” he says. “If you break the contract down into detail functional requirements, then there are thousands of points that have to be addressed and eventually verified. Is that happening? Yes.”
South African input into the evolution of the Gripen as an ever more sophisticated platform has been considerable. Nearly every aspect of aircraft functionality has been tailored to meet a long list of South African Air Force (SAAF) requirements. This includes the radar, weapons, electronic warfare gear, navigation fit, communications systems, datalink, mission planning computers, even the ejection seats. South Africa has had access and input to the Gripen at every level.
As a result, all Gripens – not just the aircraft for the SAAF – have the potential to adopt and integrate improved systems, designed in South Africa. South Africa itself is leading the field in adopting sophisticated mission systems such as the helmet-mounted display, for which the SAAF is the first Gripen customer.
Quite apart from acquiring the most modern combat aircraft in service anywhere in the world today, the associated benefits for South Africa have been considerable. Under Saab’s commitment to the DIP through the Gripen contract, $808 million will flow into the South African economy by 2012. That economic co-operation is actually running ahead of schedule with some $430 million invested in South Africa already. This takes the form of both direct orders from local industry and the far-sighted skills and technology transfer programme (STTP) that is building up a wide base of new capabilities across a number of South African industries, not just defence and aerospace.
Saab’s Eva Söderström provides a few practical examples of this co-operation to date. “Saab transferred manufacturing of the Gripen “Main Landing Gear Unit” fuselage section to South Africa’s Denel, which is now an important supplier to Saab Aerostructures. The Gripens delivered to NATO air forces are already flying with essential South African supplied components. Saab Avitronics won an important order for helicopter electronic warfare equipment from Switzerland which incorporates key technology from South African-based Avitronics, now merged into the greater Saab Avitronics business. That has given a South African company which previously had limited market reach, access to lucrative new export markets while expanding Saab’s product range, enabling it to win more orders. South Africa has become Saab’s second home market, all because of Gripen and the DIP.”
There is obvious harmony between the South African team overseeing the programme and their Swedish partners. With South Africa holding a position of honour as the first export customer for Gripen, the drive within Saab and Gripen International to deliver total customer focus and commitment has been unceasing. There is great pride in what has been achieved, but also a confidence that the Gripen team can continue to meet all of its customer’s needs.
Mike Edwards sums it up saying, “Our Swedish experience has been very positive. Of course we’ve had our differences here and there but in the big picture things are going well. The programme is well-managed within Saab, everything is pretty much on schedule – which is really saying something for a project this size.”
Project Test Pilot Lt Col Charl Coetzee notes that being in place in Sweden means “you can go straight to the guys who are doing the work and talk to them. That way we always get the ‘real’ answer. Never the company version”.
Looking back to the launch of South Africa’s next-generation fighter programme, which dates to 1994, Mike Edwards has the final word. “One of the main criteria for our new aircraft was the standing of the company that supplied it. I mean this in the widest sense, because we were entering into a 30-year relationship and it had to be with a company that we trusted – and one that was going to be around for all those years to come. Saab is that company. And with the delivery of the first aircraft our relationship is really only just beginning.” - by af.mil.za.
More EW technology...
South Africa lifts lid on Oryx special mission platforms
THE SOUTH AFRICAN Air Force (SAAF) has displayed for the first time two Denel Oryx helicopters, separately fitted as communications interception (COMINT) and jammer platforms. The jammer aircraft is fitted with twin flat antenna arrays mounted sideways across the cabin on a steerable platform supported on air-cushion bearings. The main jammer array operates in L-band with the secondary array in S-band. The helicopter's side doors have been replaced by sliding blisters enabling steering of the antenna across an arc of around 110°. The system is claimed to have an output capacity of up to 80Mhz but is about to be upgraded.
The system was developed by little-known South African electronic warfare specialists Sysdel, which also developed equipment for the SAAF's electronic intelligence configured Boeing 707. A steerable electronic support measures (ESM) antenna is located beneath the rear fuselage on a mechanically retractable mount. The rear of the cabin houses a twin operator console supporting separate ESM and techniques roles. The COMINT Oryx features a Grintek-developed fold-away dipolar antenna array projecting from the starboard side of the aircraft with a palletised signals processing and analysis suite fitted into the cabin. The system has a single operator.
The same firm was involved in the conversion of two SAAF Boeing 707s for COMINT operations in the early 1990s. One of these was also displayed for the first time at the show. The Oryx jammer is primarily designed to support strike operations against enemy air defence sites by SAAF Denel Cheetah fighters. An initial version was probably in operational service during the final twelve months of operations against Angola in 1989.
The proposed upgrade programme will see the introduction of digital RF memory based signals processing and to provide improved performance against low probability of intercept radar emitters. The upgrade will also introduce a co-processing capability to handle more sophisticated signals environments. - Flight International, September, 2000.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Al-Qaeda could get their hands on Libyan missiles, officials warn
Staff from the human rights charity inspected 35-bunker weapons dump on the eastern outskirts of the Libyan city, which is currently in the hands of rebel forces, which Western intelligence agencies fear are infiltrated by Islamist terror groups.
Peter Bouckaert, a senior Belgian HRW official, found that no guards were defending the depot, allowing civilians to haul away munitions including hundreds of Soviet "Strela" SA-7 anti aircraft missiles.
"When ordinary civilians, even children, can walk into a weapons depot and remove surface-to-air missiles capable of shooting down a civilian aircraft, you have a real problem," he said.
"Once they are fired, these weapons find the heat of jet engines. You can take out low-flying aircraft, including passenger jets taking off."
Mr Bouckaert fears that the chaos in the front line town means that the missiles have fallen into terrorist and referred to a previous 2002 al-Qaeda attempt to shoot down an Israeli jet in Mombasa with an SA-7 weapon.
"The missiles were simply there to be grabbed. Had I wanted, then I could have put one in our car and driven away," he said.
Western intelligence agencies are concerned that terrorists will benefit because the rebel Libyan transitional council is too busy fighting for survival to safeguard munitions depots in areas under its control.
As the Gaddafi regime lost control over eastern Libya last month, anti-government rebels and civilians gained access to massive military weapon and munitions depots, abandoned by government forces.
Human Rights Watch inspected 20 of 35 weapons bunkers in Ajdabiya, as well as heat seeking missiles were thousands of rockets, anti-tank weapons, guns and ammunition.
----------------------------------------
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^And yet we are told there is "debate" about "arming" the rebels. They are ALREADY well armed save in heavy weapons and have oil money on hand to get those. What bogus "debate"?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Why are a few here against an Al Qaeda Libya, or so it seems? They can drive out the westerners to a lot of peoples satisfaction. What's the problem with that? I don't recall Al Qaeda having anything to do with the Lockerbie, Scotland bombing; that was the Colonel's intelligence agency's doings, according to what I've read. But that may not be true either.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Well you believe the jewish holocaust, so you will believe anything. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
We keep hearing how poorly armed assorted rebels are, and "debates" about arming them, but the Voice of America stories show a possible mistaken NATO airstrike against rebel TANKS! Tanks? If so, NATO airstrike would be understandable since according to the press, only Ghadaffi's boys are supposed to have such heavy weapons as tanks.
And in the previous stories above Surface-Air missles were within easy reach of all and sundry including Islamists.
What this previous press mantra then we kept hearing about re - supposed "weapons starved" rebels?
Libyan Rebels: Deadly Airstrike Likely Friendly Fire A Libyan opposition commander says a deadly airstrike on rebel tank positions may be a case of friendly fire.
Rebel military commander Abdelfateh Yunis said four people died and 14 were wounded in Thursday's strike near the eastern town of Brega. Earlier, Libyan medical officials put the death toll at five.
Some opposition leaders blamed the strike on NATO, accusing the alliance of hitting the wrong targets. Others placed responsibility on pro-Gadhafi forces.
But the military commander, Abdelfateh Yunis, later said planes struck rebel tanks killing four troops and wounding 14. He said it appeared to be another NATO error and demanded answers. But earlier, medical officials reported five troops have been killed in the attacks.
He says if the attack was by NATO then it was a mistake. But if the attack was by the Gadhafi forces then it was an even bigger mistake since the no-fly zone is meant to protect his troops from the Gadhafi air force. Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing:
''Well you believe the jewish holocaust, so you will believe anything.''
Interesting. Do you think Lamin is right about just a few thousand people killed in Rwanda in 1994 intead of 800 hundred thousand? What is your view on this? And do you think George Bush advised Obama to go into Libya?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I dont think its a few thousand no. And Obama has his own court joos.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Groups of Libyan rebels and civilians have fled from the eastern town of Ajdabiya after a rebel armoured unit was hit by apparent NATO air strikes, allowing government troops to advance... Rebels had informed NATO that they were moving around 20 T55 and T72 heavy tanks from Benghazi to Brega, he said, while another commander, Ayman Abdul-Karim, told the AP news agency that rebels had followed NATO advice to avoid friendly fire and painted the tops of their vehicles with yellow markings.
General Abdelfatah Yunis, the rebel commander, said in Benghazi that four people - two fighters and two medics - were killed in the Brega attack, 14 wounded and another six people were missing.
He said "we think it was friendly fire, carried out in error by NATO," adding that the rebels had informed NATO that they were moving T55 and T72 heavy tanks from Benghazi to Brega.
"We suffered a setback today," he added, but said the rebels have 400 tanks and will get more.
^^ Several press stories in past weeks talk about "poorly armed" rebels.. But where on earth did the fictional "poorly armed" rebels get so many heavy tanks? El Commandante above is taking 400 tanks for the allegedly "poorly armed" rebels..
With this kind of firepower coming at them supported by NATO airstrikes, why on earth would any sane military commander who is told to fight on, comply with the "Coalition" demand to pull out of cities? Pull out? So rebel tanks can be massed to destroy one's troops? If anything, the COlonel's men will need every inch of urban landscape to defend themselves. In fact, it makes excellent sense for loyalist troops to step up attacks on the rebels, while they are still disorganized. To allow the rebels to consolidate and regroup, means that they will be able to gather even more heavy iron like tanks, and will have Coalition planes overhead. No sane military commander doing his job would withdraw from the cities or ease up on pressuring the rebels. His troops have a much better chance of survival fighting as close to the rebels as possible, and/or using built up urban landscape in defense.
Meanwhile, the United Nations called for a halt to hostilities in Misurata, around 215km east of Tripoli, saying several weeks of "heavy shelling" by Gaddafi's forces had killed or wounded hundreds.
UN chief Ban Ki-moon made a new "urgent call for an immediate cessation of the indiscriminate use of military force against the civilian population," his spokesman said.
"Conditions in Misurata are especially grave, with reports of the use of heavy weapons to attack the city, where the population is trapped and unable, as a result of heavy shelling that has continued over several weeks, to receive basic supplies, including clean water, food, and medicines," he said.
NATO said government troops are using civilians as human shields in Misurata, making its task more precarious.
Why doesn't "NAtO" admit that the rebels, their own anointed proxies, are themselves using "human shields" in Misurata, embedding strongpoints and weaponry amid civilians to avoid Ghadaffi's forces? Why does the press keep uncritically repeating the NATO line without examining the other side of the fence?
And if, as UN officials keep telling us, Ghadaffi's forces have been engaging in "heavy shelling" of Misrata "for weeks", where are the massive casualties that typically would result from such shelling? Where are the pictures of hundreds of bodies laid out, that the rebels can easily transmit via cell phone or Internet to the rest of the world? Something doesn't add up about NATO and UN pronouncements.
ANd why would loyalists simply keep pumping shells randomly at civilians as assorted press reports and UN/NATO bulletins imply? That is not only a waste of ammunition with little tactical gain, but such shelling, if it were so indiscriminate as claimed, would quickly attract swarms of airstrikes. Could it be that we are not being told the whole story? Could it be that the "heavy shelling" is in response to rebel fire at loyalist troops, and rebels embedding themselves in apartment buildings, houses, schools and other civilian areas and using civilians as human shields? If the whole point of the "humanitarian mission" is to protect civilians, why doesn't NATO/UN insist that the rebels remove themselves from high density civilian areas, and stop placing and using weaponry in such areas?
Then "UN Officials" tell us that the "population is trapped and unable.." to receive basic supplies, including clean water, food, and medicines.."
They blame it all on "heavy shelling for weeks" but could it be that the reason the population is "trapped" is that the rebels will not allow said population to leave? This was a typical cynical tactic of the Viet Cong in Vietnam, forbidding a population in an area under attack to leave, so that the population would suffer more from US bombs, and then "imperialist atrocities" could be claimed.
If food and water were a problem, one solution is for Ghadaffi troops to leave. BUt another equally valid solution to getting food and water to the populace is for the rebels to leave, or not hinder the free movement of civilians out, while allowing food, water & medicine in. As it stands now, the rebels have plenty of incentive to keep the population hostage. Atrocities can be claimed, dwindling air strikes can be once more ramped up for "humanitarian protection" and additional arms, cash and supplies can be lobbied for, using civilians as a bargaining chip.
The Ghadaffi regime seems very inept in not forcefully pointing out these things far and wide, and making them part of its negotiations. As propagandists or simply spokesmen making a case to world opinion, the regime is dismal. Or perhaps, or they are, and the media filter is not telling us.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
According to the report below, a ship full of food and other supplies has arrived in Misrata. So supplies are getting through despite claims by the UN/NATO implying some sort of mass starvation going on. And the BBC report below shows little of the alleged "heavy shelling", and few civilian casualties, despite the UN/NATO "spin" implying a Nazi like holocaust inside. See the video yourself below.
Even more interesting, the BBC reporter asks the rebel spokesman, who the rebels are? Ex- Khadaffi troops or "ordinary civilians with guns?" The answer was "civilians with guns." So again, let's get this straight. NATO keeps implying some sort of "humanitarian crisis" is going on in Misrata, but supplies are flowing in by ship, immune from Ghadaffi aricraft or artillery.
And supposed "innocent civilians" are walking around with AK-47s, RPGs and machine guns. SO then "innocent" civilians include those shooting at you? Does anyone expect Khadaffi troops to stand idly by when they are shot at, by allegedly "innocent" civilians? If "protecting civilians" was the NATO mission, why is it not only arming but egging on its own favored civilians to kill? Does anyone really beleive the fictional "cover stories" spun by the "Coalition" anymore?
Note the "peaceful civilians" under "heavy" Khadaffi attack, therein...
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
''I dont think its a few thousand no.''
More, or less? How many? I say it never happened at all.
''And Obama has his own court joos.''
I thought Obama kicked them out a long time ago?
Do you think, now that the Colonel has given Obama a letter that Obama will reconsider his actions in Libya?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
''Does anyone really beleive the fictional "cover stories" spun by the "Coalition" anymore?''
Who did?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: More, or less? How many? I say it never happened at all.
Around 500-800 thousand. And what never happened?
quote:I thought Obama kicked them out a long time ago?
His court joos? When, how?
quote:Do you think, now that the Colonel has given Obama a letter that Obama will reconsider his actions in Libya?
Depends on what his court joos tell him I guess.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Anguishofbeing:
''Around 500-800 thousand.''
I think Lamin says around 15,000. Maybe he meant 150,000?
''And what never happened?
The genocide, or whatever it's called. And did you see this first hand? Not all of it of course, just a little.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:The genocide, or whatever it's called.
A civil war is more accurate. You dont think it happened, ok old man, whatever floats your boat. All this stupidity just to defend joos and their myths? Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Aw relax, I believe it happened. Don't be so mean to me.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Wait! How do you know that figure is correct?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Wait! I dont...whats the other source count? Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Well I saw it as high as 1,000,000 but the 800,000 figure is parroted quite a bit. Where did you get the lower figure of 500,000?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
OK, let's look at the Rwanda civil war this way.
1) The U.S. killed approx. 3 million Vietnamese in 13 years. It had massive airpower and all kinds of weapons including chemical ones[ Agent Orange, etc.] They also almost a million men on the ground plus the South Vietnamese army. Plus, plus, etc.
2)That works out to be 230,000 killed per annum. Which means about 20,000 per month.
3) Now you mean to tell me that a Hutu rabble armed mainly with sticks, clubs and machetes could kill off in one month at least 200,000 people--almost the same as the U.S. with its massive killing power in one whole year? "Expletive deleted un-be-lievable".
Other empirical facts: 1) the Tutsis were some 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million people in 1994. If the war killed off 800,000 people--mostly Tutsis as they say--then how in whoever's name are there any Tutsis alive today? No need to be mathematics genius the do the calculations here.
2) The Tutsis are now 15% of Rwanda. The President is Tutsi and the Tutsis have won all the elections since 1994. From where did they get the numbers to vote for Kagame?
Just asking folks.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Or similar kinds of low tech wars in the last 30 years.
The Algerian civil war: 200,000 killed in 10 years. That amounts to less than 4,000 people in 90 days. And that was a brutal throat slitting war interspersed with bombs and bullets from the government.
The Tamil Tigers war: some 80,000 to 100,000 people were killed over a 25 year period. That amounts to about 1,000 in 90 days.And that war was a pretty brutal affair with frequent suicide bombings and other kinds of bomb and bullet carnage.
Compare those numbers with the claimed 800,000 number for Rwanda in 90 days.
You gotta scratch your head!
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
The reason why this thing peddled in the white world has to do with the limbic/reptilian core of the white brain: there is the deep unconscious belief that when it comes to violence blacks are unstoppable--once they are sufficiently excited.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:The Tutsis are now 15% of Rwanda. The President is Tutsi and the Tutsis have won all the elections since 1994. From where did they get the numbers to vote for Kagame?
Thats because the war wasn't about "Hutus" versus "Tutsis". If you try to understand it that way you will get confused. It was about French-backed government supporters versus supporters of RPF, armed by the United States.
Grumman, I remember reading the 500,000 figure somewhere. I agree with Lamin though that its probably a lot less.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by lamin:
1) The U.S. killed approx. 3 million Vietnamese in 13 years. It had massive airpower and all kinds of weapons including chemical ones[ Agent Orange, etc.] They also almost a million men on the ground plus the South Vietnamese army. Plus, plus, etc.
Of the heavy US impact there is no doubt, but the US did not kill 3 million Vietnamese. What credible sources do you have for this figure?
2)That works out to be 230,000 killed per annum. Which means about 20,000 per month. 3) Now you mean to tell me that a Hutu rabble armed mainly with sticks, clubs and machetes could kill off in one month at least 200,000 people--almost the same as the U.S. with its massive killing power in one whole year? "Expletive deleted un-be-lievable".
^^Not unbelievable at all. Hannibal and his African troops, along with troops of his Celtic, Iberian and Gallic allies slaughtered around 50,000 -60,000 Romans in one day at Cannae, using swords and spears. And that's just in on day, against trained fighting men, who were fighting back. (Goldsworthy 2001- The Punic Wars.)
In any event, the killing was planned for in advance and well organized. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The killing was well organized by the government.[10] When it started, the Rwandan militia numbered around 30,000, or one militia member for every ten families. It was organized nationwide, with representatives in every neighborhood. Some militia members were able to acquire AK-47 assault rifles by completing requisition forms. Other weapons, such as grenades, required no paperwork and were widely distributed by the government. Many members of the Interahamwe and Impuzamugambi were armed only with machetes. Even after the 1993 peace agreement signed in Arusha, businessmen close to General Habyarimana imported 581,000 machetes for Hutu use in killing Tutsi, because at the time, machetes were cheaper than guns.[11]
# ^ "Leave None to Tell the Story: Genocide in Rwanda." Human Rights Watch. Report (Updated April 1, 2003) # ^ Diamond, Jared. "Collapse", Penguin Books, New York, NY, 2005, pp. 316 # ^ Mark Doyle, "Ex-Rwandan PM reveals genocide planning", BBC News, March 26, 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other empirical facts: 1) the Tutsis were some 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million people in 1994. If the war killed off 800,000 people--mostly Tutsis as they say--then how in whoever's name are there any Tutsis alive today? No need to be mathematics genius the do the calculations here.
Agree that the 800,000 figure bandied about by so many, may indeed by exaggerated. It would not be the first time that so-called "human rights" advocates exaggerated. We can see that in Libya now. But even a sharply reduced body count is sobering. The Red Cross, and a number of independent observers put the killings at about 500,000 Tutsi, out of a pre-genocide figure of around 650,000. There are hundreds of first hand accounts by survivors who lived through this hell. Their stories are real. See:
The limits of humanitarian intervention: genocide in Rwanda, By Alan J. Kuperman, 2001, pg 20 on Google Books. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Zarahan,
Don't know why you ares so quick to believe Eurocentric apologists like Jared Diamond[racist] and BBC hacks like Mark Doyle.
Don't know why you want to deny the extreme brutality and kill-toll of the U.S. invasion and war in Vietnam. The toll was 2-3 million as even the U.S. historians admit.
Now to Rwanda. First, you haven't addressed the question: if the the Tutsis were just 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million population in 1994, and using the lowest number of 500,000 killed then explain how the Tutsis were able to win the war and drive the Hutus over to Goma in the Congo?Remember how the West characterised war: a genocide of the Tutsis.
Explain too why the Tutsi population in Rwanda is now some 15%+ of the population of some 8.5 million plus.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
You seem to have such faith in the "reportings" of all those white busy-bodies in Africa. What makes the Red Cross a paragon of truth in anything. They can lie and distort just as they fit.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:if the the Tutsis were just 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million population in 1994, and using the lowest number of 500,000 killed then explain how the Tutsis were able to win the war and drive the Hutus over to Goma in the Congo?
Good point. As said, to see the war as "tribal" is buying into western (American) propaganda. And this is easy to sell since Africa is suppose to be tribal and irrational. Fact is, the RPF consisted of Hutus and Tutsis and same with Interahamwe.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
I wrote before that deep in the white mind--its reptilian limbic core--there is the reflex belief that associates blacks with extreme uncontrollable violence--hence the hysterical reporting re Rwanda--which leads white reporters writing about killings in Africa to replace the word "kill" with "slaughter", "tribal slaughter", "savage slaughter", "massacre", "tribal massacre", etc. This also leads to a massive ramping up of numbers that are usually just accepted.
The same limbic reflex action is also triggered at the mention of "rape". In the U.S. the historic mob reaction to such was the direct cause of brutal lynchings. See too the controversy surrounding the film Birth of a Nation.
See Malcolm Gladwell's book BLINK. The book also discusses the Implicit Association Test in which test takers test their subconscious racial preferences and biases when they are flashed black and white phenotypes.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
James Baker says (in response to stated UN goal of "protection of civilians") Qaddafi has "plenty" of support in the west. He also asks how is this UN goal going to deal with atrocities of the rebels.
It seems as people in high places start asking obvious questions (now the war isn't going their favor) and as this gets more complicated "monkey" and "exile" have been noticeably absent. lol
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Gone, but not forgotten, eh
Nah. This thread is a little lacklustre of late. It's turned into a race war/reptilian farce. Nothing to do with Libya anymore. Too many chips on too many shoulders.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Zarahan,
Don't know why you ares so quick to believe Eurocentric apologists like Jared Diamond[racist] and BBC hacks like Mark Doyle.
Don't know why you want to deny the extreme brutality and kill-toll of the U.S. invasion and war in Vietnam. The toll was 2-3 million as even the U.S. historians admit.
Now to Rwanda. First, you haven't addressed the question: if the the Tutsis were just 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million population in 1994, and using the lowest number of 500,000 killed then explain how the Tutsis were able to win the war and drive the Hutus over to Goma in the Congo?Remember how the West characterised war: a genocide of the Tutsis.
Explain too why the Tutsi population in Rwanda is now some 15%+ of the population of some 8.5 million plus.
Lamin, it has nothing do do with "wanting to believe" Eurocentrists. It is a simple matter of being accurate factually. I again ask, what credible sources do you have for the claim that the US killed 3 million Vietnamese? Even official PAVN sources do not list so high a figure. Where are you getting this claim from? What "US Historians" admit this? Give a detailed citation of what and who? I see now you are waffling and are now saying 2-3million Vietnamese killed by the Americans. But again, I ask, what credible "US Historians" support your claim? I bet you can't because your claim is false. You have to be more accurate. The heavy negative US impact on Vietnam is well documented, and I don;t "deny" it. Play it straight man. You don't have to exaggerate - you lose nothing by respecting the facts.
Now to Rwanda. First, you haven't addressed the question: if the the Tutsis were just 8% of Rwanda's 6.9 million population in 1994, and using the lowest number of 500,000 killed then explain how the Tutsis were able to win the war and drive the Hutus over to Goma in the Congo?Remember how the West characterised war: a genocide of the Tutsis.
You keep shifting your claims every time you are called out on a falsehood. Above, you claimed the US killed 3million Vietnamese. When called on it, you fail to provide credible proof, but suddenly lower the figure to 2million "to" 3 million. But it still makes no difference, your claim is still false.
Now you are shifting your claims again. I already addressed how the 500,000 Tutsi killed could come out of a population of 6.9million, using your own 8% figure. Now you ask how the Tutsis could win. Easy.
The Tutsi RPF restarted their offensive, and took control of the country methodically by cutting off government supply routes and encircling Kigali. The RPF took control of Kigali on 4 July and the whole country by 18 July 1994. A coalition government was sworn in under a transitional constitution with Pasteur Bizimungu as President. --Dallaire, Roméo (2005). Shake Hands With The Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda. GoogleBooks
I highly recommend you look up the history of Rwanda before making a lot of sweeping claims, or false claims, like the 3million/2million claim above, that can't be backed up credibly.
Explain too why the Tutsi population in Rwanda is now some 15%+ of the population of some 8.5 million plus.
Think Lamin, think! If you had actually taken time to investigate the history instead of making these sweeping false claims, you would know that many Tutsi that had fled, were able to return. Also many Hutu fled Rwanda fearing retaliation as the Tutsi forces emerged victorious. Take some time to actually read and understand the facts.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"Tutsi RPF" is false as there were Hutus involved. The RPF gained control of the country because the UN -who was suppose to act as a buffer between aggression of the RPF and the defending Interhamwe/government supporters - pulled out allowing the US-backed RPF to advance. The peace deal and the UN was very biased in favor of the RPF - logically as it is controlled by the US - and they were better armed than their French-backed enemies.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Whether the RPF had UN support is not the question. The RPF may have had some Hutu supporters but it was overwhelmingly Tutsi as numerous credible histories Calling it "Tutsi RFP" just as these histories do is perfectly valid. In fact their Hutu opponents considered the RFP to be mostly Tutsi.
-----------------------------------------
GoogleBooks # Interim governments: institutional bridges to peace and democracy? - Page 85 Karen Guttieri, Jessica Piombo - 2007 - 406 pages - Preview Rwanda, Arusha Accords, July 25, 1993: After repeated military success by the mostly Tutsi RPF in early 1993 and increasing international pressure, the Habyarimana government is forced to enter into peace negotiations in Arusha, ... books.google.com - More editions
#A question of loyalty: military manpower policy in multiethnic states - Page 171
Alon Peled - 1998 - 203 pages - Preview The final Arusha agreements contained detailed articles concerning the integration of Tutsi-dominated RPF guerrilla fighters .. books.google.com
#In God's name: genocide and religion in the twentieth century - Page 153
Omer Bartov, Phyllis Mack - 2001 - 401 pages - Preview 26 With the largely Tutsi RPF attacking the borders of the country, claims that the Tutsi still sought to subdue the Hutu gained credence, and Tutsi within Rwanda could be scapegoated as RPF agents, effectively diverting public ..
#Global television and the shaping of world politics: CNN, ... - Page 119
Royce J. Ammon - 2001 - 197 pages - Google eBook - Preview As the Tutsi RPF consolidated its hold on power inside Rwanda, Hutus in Rwanda feared revenge from the army that had quelled the mass killing of Tutsis. As a result, Hutus began pouring over the border into neighboring countries. ...
#Ecoviolence: links among environment, population and security - Page 214
Thomas F. Homer-Dixon, Jessica Blitt - 1998 - 238 pages - Google eBook - Preview A careful review of the evidence shows that ethnic affiliations became salient among the elite, because the predominantly Tutsi RPF threatened the regime's hold on power. Moreover, ethnic divisions were not the only cleavages in Rwandan ...
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Ethnic division was not the cause or even driving force for the conflict. I dont give a fuk what your "sources" say, to call it "Tutsi RPF" is misleading. The war was not tribal. It was between the US-backed rebels, Tutsi and Hutu, versus government supporters, Tutsi and Hutu.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Of course you would try to duck and dodge credible sources because your claim is false. Whether one side was "US backed" makes no difference in the fact that the Tutsi dominated the RPF. Since you disagree, provide credible proof of your claim that the RPF was not mostly Tutsi.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Where did I claim the RPF was not "Tutsi dominated"? Reread my posts again. If you dont understand what I am saying ask.
quote:In fact their Hutu opponents
Do you even know who started the Interhamwe?
quote:As a result, Hutus began pouring over the border into neighboring countries.
Fact is, Hutus and Tutsis fled into DRC.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Zyonist Geraldo says he's glad to be back home and the Libyan "rebels" (those girls from Benghazi) are the worst group of fighters he has ever seen. LMAO!!!!
Exile and Monkey where are you please!!!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Notice too the line nowadays is "civil war". Before it wasn't a "civil war" but a popular "uprising", just as in Egypt, that would soon overthrow Qaddafi. It was to be understood as part of the sweeping "Arab renaissance" of democracy and transparency. What happened? LOL!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I thought it turned into civil war when (a) the people came out in their masses to protest and (b) the army started firing on them Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Re: Terminology (Civil War/Uprising)
What does Muammar/Saif have in common with Revolutionaries/Opposition? They all agree that it is not a Civil War. I haven't read the word الحرب الأهلية الليبية even once in any reputable Arab press. The only mention is when the article is translated from western press. Verify this for yourself. Type “Libyan Civil War” in english and then in Arabic “الحرب الأهلية الليبية " one at a time in Google search and attest to this fact. It's a Western Media label, nothing more, nothing less.
Re: Arab Renaissance
We are literally in the first 4-5 months in, and what have we witnessed so far? Tunisia and Egypt to hold free elections in July and September, respectively. Citizens of those countries who only months ago couldn't go on radio and voice their concerns are no freely speaking without repercussions e.g. fear of disappearing.
Yemen is literally on the verge getting rid of Saleh and paving the way for free elections. The hijacked momentum of the unity proclamtion may actually bear fruit once the tyrant is gone. It may or may not, the point is there is hope, a precious word that was non-existent in the Arab world prior to Jan-2011.
Morocco King Mohammad has publicly announced that Morocco will begin a process to transform it a Constitutional monarchy. You know what that means, free elections, when was the last time that Moroccans voted. This is a nation where it was forbidden to slaughter a lamb on Eid, before the King did it first on state tv.
Algeria has lifted the brutal Emergency Law.
Syria has publicly stated that they would change the constitution to allow for more than just the Ba'aath party. There are hopes that the Emergency Law will also be lifted. Syrian Kurds for the first time in their lives have been granted Syrian citizenship.
Saudi Arabia has issued more than 150 Billion dollars to it's citizens from raises to free housing, etc. Money that otherwise would have been embezzled out the country. There is hope for more freedoms including elected officials.
Jordan is on the path to meaningful elections in which the people will freely elect the Prime Minister of their choice and this is unprecedented as previously the King elected the PM and ensuing government. To date Unions have been allwoed to form e.g. teacher's unions. The law for free and public gathering is in full effect.
Libya, well look at where we are now, it is only a matter of time, and that's all it is, a matter of time. Does anyone seriously believe it will revert to Qadaffi's mad rule?
All of this has happened in the last few months. Before this the Arab World was literally gripped with an iron fist. If the year ended today, what transpired above would suffice for the year or 2 or even 3. The “change” has begun however, there is no reverting to the pre-2011 Arab world. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Well of course Muammar isn't going to see it as a "civil war", he already branded the Benghazi girls "terrorists" connected to al qaeda... and the girls for their part are not going to see "civil war" either, they are going to try and sell it as a peoples revolution like in Egypt. Not even close.
As for your "renaissance". The US client states, the most important ones to watch: there are still reports of abuse from Egyptian military, no change. Hard to see corrupt military elite giving up forty years of billion dollar aid without a fight. Jordan - only promises. Morocco the same. Yemen no way, dont see it. and Saudi Arabia isn't even promising shyt. LOL!
There might be change in the ME but it will take much more than facebook nerds and romantic notions of "people power".
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"Gadhafi declared he would show 'no mercy' to his own people," President Barack Obama said in his address to the nation the other night, explaining that he decided to attack Libya to avoid a civilian blood bath.
He's not the first president, and likely not the last, to call America to war by using such language. There is a high-minded moral tone to it — the same tone that both presidents named Bush used as they declared their wars in Iraq.
"What I am opposed to is a dumb war," said a tall, angular, young Illinois politician gaining a reputation as a great debater. "What I am opposed to is a rash war.
"What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt … of weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and hardships borne."
Many fighters in Ajdabiya wearing brand-new desert military boots they say were supplied by #Qatar. #Libya http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn
Furthermore:
As previously noted here, opposition fighters now have French-made MILAN anti-tank missiles. Source unknown. #Libya http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The emir wants to spread democracy in the region. As "Exxxiled" would say, "props" should go out to those freedom-loving sheiks. lol
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Anguish of Being,
Only fools and the racially anguished could have been taken in by Barack Obama. The man was tailor-made of 21st century America. A promoted fraud with a relatively weak intellect--contrary to the white liberal notion that he's smart.
It was that kind of face that the powers that be in white America were looking for to take the imperialist war to Africa. It's that kind of face that would put a smiley on Africom. Now the weakminded jackass joins with dwarf Sarkozy and condom-head(that's the term the British Guardian uses for him) Cameron to bomb an African nation. These 3 clowns are so simple-minded as to write a letter to the white European media with the message the "Gaddafi must go". The reason for this childish approach is just a very transparent ploy that the white Euro-American media should step up its propaganda.
But the big question is this: who planned it so that this weak-minded nonentity should become President of the U.S. only to be the instrument of the Jews and white America's programme for Africa in the new millenium?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
A key question is this: Who is going to get what shares of the oil revenues? One person’s take on this appears in this blog. A Venezuelan who was inside the process and saw how the State diverted oil revenues to itself and industrial projects addresses Libyans and tells them:
Citizens of Libya
Give yourselves a fighting chance to become real citizens in your own country. Demand for the oil revenues to be paid out to you directly. If you so wish, you can then later hand it over to your government in taxes… but at least that way you make it clearer to your government that it works for you. http://theoilcurse.blogspot.com/2011/04/citizens-of-libya.html Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Well at least they have something in common with the failed Libyan saboteurs, given the fact that they too failed to undermine their government even with help from Bush II. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Jalal Talabani kills 34 people at Ashraf. US, France, UK and Qatar should go in and stop him from "killing his own people!!!" I mean this is unacceptable! Opps, sorry, they were Iranians...still they should stop him from "killing other people!!!" Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
White House Seeks Exile Spot for Qaddafi
Even though there are no signs that Muammar Qaddafi is ready to leave power, or that there is a rebel leader who can be a credible successor, the Obama administration and its allies are quietly looking around for a place where the Libyan leader can live out his sunset years. The whole effort is made more complicated by his likely indictment by the International Criminal Court in the Hague for the bombing of PanAm Flight 103 in 1998, as well as human rights violations inside Libya, reports the New York Times. Officials are looking at the possibility of finding a country that has not signed the Rome Statute forcing nations to abide by the international court's rulings. That won't be as hard as it sounds since around half of the African countries have not signed the treaty, which the United States has also refused to do. The search is part of a White House effort to push for regime change without putting boots on the ground. Separately, the NYT also reports that rebels say they are receiving arms from abroad. Even though Qatar has publicly said it would be willing to arm rebels, the fighters refuse to confirm where the weapons are coming from or give details about when or how they might have arrived. On Thursday though, the emir of Qatar told CNN "that deliveries of antitank weapons might have already reached them."
Its for a good cause...al qaeda.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
These Benghazi fascist rebels have broken a record. It's the first time in history that a so-called rebel movement has sought arms and support from 3 imperialist, bloody-murder nations at the same time. Which, of course, proves that they are not a genuine rebel movement.
These silly boys who fight as if they had on burquas are just so astoundingly stupid--except when it comes to slaughtering African workers in Libya.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: --except when it comes to slaughtering African workers in Libya.
Yes, this has been their only success so far.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: These Benghazi fascist rebels have broken a record. It's the first time in history that a so-called rebel movement has sought arms and support from 3 imperialist, bloody-murder nations at the same time. Which, of course, proves that they are not a genuine rebel movement.
These silly boys who fight as if they had on burquas are just so astoundingly stupid--except when it comes to slaughtering African workers in Libya.
They are not only fascists, but also members of Bin Ladins, supported by the Saudis.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
In an earlier, happier time... yes we can...
[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0h-O4JRHaEE/TYgRR8nIMyI/AAAAAAAAB3c/QhS7w9LV7Kk/s1600/gaddafi-obama.jpg[/img]
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
It seems that the rebels have decided that they need "Western" intervention to win this civil war and it looks like the west is happy to help.
Ask yourself why Libya and not Yemen or Syria?? It seems the west is biased against Gaddafi and want him out at all costs.
Also I use to support the rebels in Libya, but after reading about how they treated the African workers I realized this was no revolution and saw that these ignorant Libyans are only out for blood....If they were peaceful like the Egyptians then I would support them but killing African workers shows them to be racist and they seem to be taking out there anger against Gaddafi by killing innocent people...Also I watch Aljazeera news and really don't like to see children being used as pawns in this fight. Hopefully this war ends soon.
I do not think no one on this forum, you would find someone who supports Qadafi. Let us make clear. Qadafi is a son of a bitch, and he has blood on his hands - both in his country and his many mercenary assistances to neighbouring countries.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
This "Arab Spring Revolution" was so beautiful, like a dream, that lasted just few seconds, until these Benghazi fascists turned it into a nightmare.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Putting your money where your mouth is: In strict material terms Gaddafi gave serious support to the ANC. While the U.S., Britain, and Israel were supporting the Apartheid regime Gaddafi was doing the opposite. Mandela had to say thanks. Gaddafi helped the IRA against English settler imperialism in Northern Ireland. Gaddafi was instrumental in getting OPEC started so that the U.S. and the West pay more than a few sou for a barrel of black gold. Gaddafi was instrumental in getting the AU morphed over into the AU. One of the few African states not to sign on to AFRICOM.
Lockerbie? Many say it was Iran that did it but blame was passed over to Libya.
In his war with Western imperialism Gaddafi fought fire with fire. OK some noses were bloodied but every Western leader has blood on his hands. Even the Turkish ones in their fight with the Kurds.
Casting stones is not for sinners.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
And Libya's metrics: Gini coefficient, life expectancy, literacy rate, gender equality, health and QLI? Gaddafi and Castro. Any comparisons?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
That is all true, but I would not give my freedom for an exchange to live in a golden cage.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Are you "free"?
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Photojournalist and filmmaker Tim Hetherington, director and producer of the documentary film “Restrepo,” and photojournalist Chris Hondros were were killed in the Libyan city of Misurata on Wednesday when the group of four photojournalists were attacked.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: That is all true, but I would not give my freedom for an exchange to live in a golden cage.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Are you "free"?
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
As usual, Farrakhan tells it like it truly is!
The Zionists (ADL) are controlling this Libya insurgence, and even went so far as to contaminate the $5M loan Gaddaffi extended to the the Nation Of Islam while Threatening the Chicago black bank; The Liberty Bank, and Black business, Johnson Products.
These Zionists are like a cross between Roaches and leaches.
The point is Gaddafi has been President of Libya too long. That's not good--even though so-called democratic political powers stay in power through machinations for more 50 years sometimes.
Point too is that It's up to Libyans to determine how long the Gaddafi regime and system of government should continue.
The people of South Africa and Zimbabwe overthrew the white settler regimes(partially) without devils like France, Britain and the U.S. putting boots on the ground in their defence.
Whenever you hear France, Britain and the U.S. wanting to liberate any people it would be like a Catholic priest adopting a young boy. Just say no!
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Are we talking about now philosophical questions or Qhadifi's crimes against his people? I do not mind to change the topic, but if the question is, freedom is a state of mind or the human flesh can never be "free", then what you are saying could be translated, that the slavery revorlt in Haiti was vain, because humans can never be "free".
What you had in Libya in the last 40 years, was a man who totally requested obedience from his people, for a exchange for a welfare state from cradle to grave. And he was also preparing for his people, that his sons to take over after he was gone. The state might had the highest incomst pr. person in Africa, but you would hardly find strong institutions (judiciary, academical, press, unions, even military!)- any institut that would challenge the power, and he did nothing in the last 40 years, where he had plenty of time to do it. He only knew how to survive -and he was a master of this game- that is why he sought reconciliation from the West after 9/11. Now the West want him out - not that they could not find agreement (Qhadafi would be more than happy to serve the West, if only the West let him alone), but the burning point was how to stop the Arab nationalism reaching across North Africa and the Middle East, and most importantly, the survival of House of Saud.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
The survival of House of Saud is a central point in Libya. If Qadhafi stays in power, that would worry the Saudis. And also, Qadhafi could arm Algerians to revolt against Bouteflika, and Algeria being the life line of France (remember when the Islamists won the election in 92? French military tanks were rolling in Algier few days after), France could not take any chances. The Arab nationalism had to be stopped, before it reached in Algeria and Chad (another very hot place!!).
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
That you would compare Haiti under the French to Libya under Qhadafi shows how much of a simpleton you are. Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Why did you ask a philosophical question? Who is running from the debat?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Qadhafi does not have wide support of his people, but he has oil, oil that can buy him survival, which he used in the last 40 years, and unlike Mubareek and Bin Ali. That is also one reason what makes him dangerous in the eyes of the West.
And the comparison of Haiti and Libya. Neither the Libyan people under Qadhafi or the slaves were free.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: That you would compare Haiti under the French to Libya under Qhadafi shows how much of a simpleton you are.
Are you kidding? This is about as interesting as this thread has ever gotten. At least it's progressed from calling everyone "girls" and quarrelling over "kick ass" this that and the other. I don't know who this Arwa dude is but he (or she) sure knows how to put forward a compelling, reasoned argument.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
BTW, I would never ever compare the suffering of the slaves with the Qadhafi's crimes against his people, but bottom line is, neither these people were free.
I do not understand why you bring the question whether I am "free"? You always have a habit to poison a debat.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
I really do not understand why the left (Chavez) has such a heroic status of Qadhafi. The man did not even protected his state, and repeated the same mistakes Sadam did! The West tells him to give up his weapons, and he did. The West tells him to pay compensation of Lockerbie disaster, when there are no concrete evidances that Qadhafi was behind, but he bend down like a true servant and paid an astronomical figure! Is he really good for Libya? At least North Korea did not give up their weapons. Arabs could learn something from Kim.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
That is why it is difficult to talk about race issues in Libya.
quote:Vol. 33 No. 9 · 28 April 2011 pages 19-20 | 2947 words Is there a Libya? Issandr El Amrani
At the time of writing, there is a stalemate in Libya. Towns such as Misurata and al-Baida, waypoints between Cyrenaica in the east and Tripolitania in the west, have been alternately in rebel and loyalist hands. The international community rushed to the rebels’ support, then discovered that they were less militarily proficient than it thought, with the result that the Gaddafi regime appears to be regaining its footing. No one seems to know what Nato’s mission is exactly: is it to establish a no-fly zone, a no-drive zone, or bring about regime change? Multiple diplomatic efforts are underway to achieve a negotiated ceasefire, although none is having much success, and the Libyan Transitional National Council – the rebel body recognised by France, Italy, Qatar and the Maldives as the legitimate government – has begun to show signs of internal division. A military standoff is a real possibility and even if Nato were to settle on an alternative strategy, such as arming and training the rebels, this would hardly guarantee their success; loyalist forces have considerable reserves of cash and gold with which to acquire weapons, and the country is used to a black economy that would alleviate the impact of sanctions.
In February, when the uprising began, the situation looked very different. One town after another fell to the rebels and the regime’s reaction was slow and clumsy. In the context of the toppling of Tunisia’s Ben-Ali and Egypt’s Mubarak just weeks before, the success of the rebellion seemed a safe bet, particularly when France unexpectedly recognised the Transitional National Council after Bernard-Henri Lévy persuaded Sarkozy to act quickly. Only a few years before, Sarkozy had given Gaddafi a warm welcome in Paris and, when criticised for it, pointed in his defence to Libya’s abandonment of its nuclear weapons programme, and, more obliquely, to the lucrative market the country offered French industry. But now Sarkozy needs to drum up some support in France.
The current de facto division of Libya into east and west, roughly along the boundaries of the old Ottoman provinces of Tripolitania and Cyrenaica, reflects the absence of any strong historical links between the two regions, which are separated by a 300-mile stretch of desert where the Gulf of Sirte swoops down to brush the 30th Parallel. Indeed, Libya had no history of political unity before its creation by the UN on 24 December 1951. At the beginning of the 20th century, the provinces of Tripolitania, Cyrenaica and Fazzan, in the south-west, had been under the nominal control of the Sublime Porte for about 400 years. Their population of around a million, two-thirds of whom lived in Tripolitania, consisted mostly of nomadic pastoralists. Disease and famine ensured that the number remained stable for more than a century. Europeans had romantic notions of the provinces’ ancient history – the coast had been controlled at various points by the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Byzantines – and the ruined temples these civilisations had left behind. (America’s connection with what is now Libya is even more superficial, for all that the US Marine Corps hymn begins with the lines: ‘From the halls of Montezuma/To the shores of Tripoli’.) They were the last area of North Africa to attract the attention of European colonisers, although during the 19th century the Banco di Roma established branches along the coast. In 1911, Italy, a latecomer to empire, decided to annex Tripolitania and Cyrenaica and turn them into what the proto-Fascist Gabriele d’Annunzio called its ‘Fourth Shore’. After formally notifying the Ottoman Empire, the Italians launched an invasion, starting with the major coastal cities. It was not until 1913 that it got Tripolitania under control; Cyrenaica proved more difficult still. They managed to hold onto the coastal towns and turn them into garrisons, but they met fierce resistance from the Senussi, a religious order founded in Mecca in 1837 which combined Cyrenaica’s traditional Sufi teachings with Salafist ruminations on the need for an Islamic renewal. The Senussi had fought against French encroachments into southern Cyrenaica and Fazzan in 1902, and now turned their energies on the Italians. Interrupted during the First World War, when Italian troops were needed elsewhere, this ‘pacification’ would continue until 1943, when the Allies finally pushed out the Italians and Germans after the battle of al-Alamein.
In a brief section on the Italian period in A History of Modern Libya (2006), Dirk Vandewalle writes:
quote: It was, by any standard, a brutal and unsparing campaign of subjugation. Estimates of overall deaths among the Libyan population as a whole vary considerably, but one reliable source estimates that the number of deaths, from all causes except natural ones, from 1912 to 1943, was between 250,000 and 300,000, from a population that stood at between 800,000 and one million at the time. Most of these occurred during the Fascist period, when, by execution alone, an estimated 12,000 Cyrenaicans died in 1930 and in 1931.
By killing more than a quarter of the total population, the Italians substantially weakened the power and social structure of the Cyrenaican tribes and the Senussi order. They made a pretence of acting in the best interests of the locals: Mussolini, foreshadowing Gaddafi in his deadly buffoonery, even proclaimed himself Protector of Islam in Tripoli in 1937. Il Duce’s policies did provide a rare and lasting national icon, however, with the martyrdom of Omar al-Mukhtar, a Cyrenaican tribal sheikh who led the guerrilla efforts against the Italians. Al-Mukhtar was captured in September 1931, and Rodolfo Graziani, Italy’s commander-in-chief in Libya, hurried from Rome to give him a perfunctory trial. Some 20,000 tribesmen and notables were forced to attend his public hanging. His name is now used by the rebels as a rallying call, his portrait adorns walls throughout the east, and his war cry – ‘We will never surrender, we will win or die’ – has become the unofficial slogan of the uprising.
The Italian colonial era left behind a traumatised population, and a tradition, in some coastal towns, of excellent coffee. The Italians sent 110,000 settlers to what they now called Libya, building infrastructure such as ports and a two-lane coastal road that linked Tunisia to Egypt for the first time. (In 2009, on the occasion of the celebrations of Gaddafi’s 40th year in power, Berlusconi opened a new coastal highway that Italy had financed. The Italian air force flew overhead, its jets releasing green vapour trails in honour of the Gaddafi-era Libyan flag. The highway was the price Italy paid to get a share of Libya’s lucrative oil and arms contracts, along with a treaty of mutual friendship that prohibited war between the two countries. The treaty has now been suspended by Italy’s parliament.) Italy saw Libya as a solution to its own surplus population – most of the settlers were landless peasants lured by the prospect of eventually owning the farms set up by the colonial government’s land reclamation projects – and it never showed much interest in recruiting natives into the administration it had created. At most, they would be hired as menial wage labourers. As Vandewalle notes, Libyans’ early encounters with the modern state made the relative egalitarianism of the tribal way of life all the more appealing – which goes some way towards explaining Gaddafi’s stubborn suspicion of centralised authority, captured in the first sentence of his Green Book: ‘The instrument of government is the primary political problem facing human communities.’
After the Second World War political life of a sort emerged in the more cosmopolitan Tripolitania, which favoured unification of the provinces, while Cyrenaica continued to support the heir of the Senussi, Sayyid Idris al-Senussi, and refused to be part of any state not ruled by him. The inhabitants of Fazzan preferred to go on being ruled by the French. The Great Powers initially favoured the idea of three trusteeships: Italian in Tripolitania (where some 40,000 Italian settlers remained), British in Cyrenaica and French in Fazzan. The intensification of the Cold War in the late 1940s changed that view, with the US and Britain now seeing an independent Libya as more to their advantage: the trusteeship system did not allow for the establishment of military bases. As the American ambassador noted at the time, ‘a glance at the map shows the strategic value of Libya … without which there might have been little interest in the emergence of an Arab kingdom in North Africa … If Libya had passed under any form of United Nations trusteeship, it would have been impossible for the territory to play a part in the defence arrangements of the free world.’ Thus was created the United Kingdom of Libya, a portmanteau state born out of compromise, whose new ruler, the Senussi chief King Idris, now had to unite it. It was one of the poorest countries in the world, with an annual income per capita of about $25, a 94 per cent illiteracy rate and not a single doctor – to this day, Libya imports much of its medical know-how, while Libyan visitors ensure rich pickings for doctors in Malta and Tunisia. Its three component parts insisted on a strongly federal system, and in its first version, from 1951 to 1963, the kingdom maintained three distinct capitals. Its chief source of income until oil revenues began to flow in the late 1950s derived from the rental of two military bases to the Americans and the British; by the end of the 1950s, Libya received the highest volume of US aid per capita in the world.
The king and his entourage were able to accrue considerable personal power, particularly after oil extraction began, but authority was also devolved to the provincial and local level, blocking the creation of an effective national administration. The king maintained two Praetorian guards, the Cyrenaican Defence Force and Tripolitanian Defence Force, each composed of tribesmen loyal to the Senussis. Since the monarchy banned political parties, the parties that had emerged after the war – in Tripolitania the National Congress Party, in Cyrenaica the Omar al-Mukhtar Club – could not operate, and the idea of a unified Libya gained little traction. Idris himself was much more interested in the future of Cyrenaica, where he spent most of his time, than he was in being the ruler of Tripolitania. Even when the federal system was abolished in 1963 and the country became the Kingdom of Libya, much informal power remained in the hands of Idris’s entourage – Tripolitanian technocrats and the Senussi family itself, which was plotting to ensure the succession. In this it was not unlike the Libya of the last decade, when the only people with real power were the Gaddafi family, its extended tribe, and a few loyalist technocrats.
In 1969 Gaddafi and his Free Officers mounted their coup and easily overthrew a monarchy now increasingly perceived as corrupt, scheming and responsible for rising inflation. The income from foreign military bases was no longer needed now that petrodollars were gushing in and Idris’s conservative, pro-Western stance was resented. The monarchy’s chief enemy had been Radio Cairo, with its message of pan-Arab revolution, and Gaddafi idolised Nasser. The Free Officers wanted to be part of an Arab and Muslim nation rather than a Libyan one. Later on, after repeated clashes with other Arab leaders (notably King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, whom it is alleged he tried to have assassinated in 2002 when he was still crown prince), Gaddafi gave up on his attempts to unify the Arab world. He played down his early Islamist, pan-Muslim ideology and looked south instead, appointing himself King of Africa through generous chequebook diplomacy.
The Gaddafi we know – the ‘mad dog’ of Libya, prone to rambling speeches, fancy dress and fits of megalomania, the object of ridicule in ‘Zenga Zenga’ videos on You Tube who takes his tent with him when he travels – was not always like that. On 1 September 1969, when he announced the overthrow of King Idris, Gaddafi was a handsome 27-year-old army officer who hoped to reverse the humiliation of the Arab defeat at the hands of Israel in 1967. But he was also a member of a minor tribe that had settled in the Tripolitanian town of Sirte – where most of the key officers in the Libyan army still come from – and his politics were primarily regional.
It took eight years for him to turn Libya into a Jamahiriya, or republic of the masses, and another two to publish the Green Book, his semi-literate philosophy of governance. It was not until 1989 that he relinquished his own position in government and anointed himself, simply, as the revolution’s Guide. Each of these steps was accompanied by changes in Libya’s political system designed to alter the relationship between citizens and the central authority, to deflect criticism of Gaddafi himself by making it easy to blame underlings for their poor implementation of his ideas. He has made it a feature of his reign to deliver long speeches criticising the structures he himself set up and the men he appointed to run them, always with the ultimate aim of concentrating real power in his family, his tribe and a few trusted individuals. In The Libyan Paradox, Luis Martinez speaks of four eras: in the first, from 1969 to 1973, control is held by the Revolutionary Command Council and a single party modelled on Egypt’s Arab Socialist Union; the second, from 1973 to 1977, sees the introduction of the Popular Committees, a disastrous attempt at decentralisation and ‘people’s power’; the third, from 1977 to 1992, witnessed the introduction of the Revolutionary Committees, the despised militia-cum-vanguard modelled on the Chinese Red Guards, tasked with the ‘absolute revolutionary supervision of people’s power’ and a foreign policy based on the support of international terrorism; the fourth covers the sanctions era and Libya’s rehabilitation in the West, when Gaddafi’s revolution ran out of steam and his regime shrank largely to its tribal base.
The uprising that began in February was unexpected, but so were the other Arab rebellions, even though there had been indications that a rough patch lay ahead as the question of who would succeed the elderly rulers loomed. These succession crises were only part of the picture, however. Mubarak and Ben-Ali were plainly corrupt; in Libya, Gaddafi’s sons controlled vast chunks of the economy. All three countries were mafia states. Over the last decade, the Libyan regime had held the country together through a combination of sticks and carrots: on the one hand, repression; on the other, the promise of rising oil and gas income as international oil companies returned after the lifting of sanctions and invested in new fields Libya did not possess the technology to tap, as well as the façade of a reform process whereby Saif Gaddafi, the Guide’s second son, promised partial liberalisation in return for an acceptance that he would inherit power. What was in effect being promised was a Libyan adaptation of the market-friendly, pro-Western dynastic authoritarianism evident until now in Egypt and Tunisia. In the end, what undid Gaddafi’s revolution was a wider pan-Arab revolution with which young Arabs across the region instantly identified. This is why diplomatic attempts to guarantee the succession for Saif, as advocated by the African Union and Curt Weldon, a former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania who conducted ‘private diplomacy’ financed by oil lobbyists, have been rejected out of hand by the rebels.
Throughout his 42-year reign, Gaddafi used Libya as a test-case for his ideal of statelessness, based on a mishmash of Marxist ideology, his own peculiar distillation of Islamic history and idealised bedouin values (egalitarianism, self-reliance). Despite his tribal background, there is now, thanks to him, a greater sense of a united Libya than ever existed before. What brought this about was the redistribution of oil income, which in the 1970s and 1980s dramatically increased the living standards of Libyans and made them more dependent on the state, particularly after Gaddafi banned private businesses for more than a decade, a measure that led to the exile of the country’s entrepreneurs and created a deep well of resentment, notably in Benghazi’s merchant class, now strong supporters of the uprising. The growing urbanisation of the country has resulted in the slow decline of tribal and regional identity, while standardised education and globalisation have made the old debate about whether Libya should exist at all obsolete. And yet, as Vandewalle’s history shows, Gaddafi’s fixation on statelessness and the haphazard administration of the country means that state-building has been ‘lopsided and incomplete’.
The question that must now be asked is whether there will be enough centripetal force to keep Libya together. Today, the rebels protest that they have no intention of dividing the country and insist that tribal and provincial considerations are largely irrelevant. But the reality is that their movement is mostly a Cyrenaican one, and that recruitment has taken place largely through tribal affiliation. Beyond a rejection of the Gaddafi regime, the Transitional National Council has given little indication of what its version of a post-Gaddafi Libya might look like. For his part, Gaddafi has rallied loyal tribes around him, and now relies on them for support more publicly than ever. With time, the historical Tripolitanian-Cyrenaican divide could gain new permanence.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
If you think Libya is messy. Wait until you see Chad!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: That you would compare Haiti under the French to Libya under Qhadafi shows how much of a simpleton you are.
Are you kidding? This is about as interesting as this thread has ever gotten. At least it's progressed from calling everyone "girls" and quarrelling over "kick ass" this that and the other. I don't know who this Arwa dude is but he (or she) sure knows how to put forward a compelling, reasoned argument.
Shouldn't you be wiring money to the girls or something? They need all the help they can get. LOL!
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Arwa, You are reading the wrong stuff. Looks like sine you moved to to Turkey you are being overcome by paleness.What's happening over there? If too intimate to talk about then just be coy about it.
Now with Gaddafi. Just name an African country in which the people are better off economically and politically. You say that Gaddafi abused his people--more than Saudis who have enslaved more than 50% of the population--in the name of the the weird cult called Wahabbism. On the issue of politics: how free are you when you can insult the President or Prime Minister but you have no way of changing a society of corruption and nepotism.
Again, name an African country or some Muslim country where the people are better off economically and politically than Libya.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
In terms of the control of the Libyan economy let me ask this question: which families control the bulk of the wealth in the U.S., France and Britain? How much wealth does the lazy, idle and corrupt Royal Family in Britain control? Some say that the Queen of the Brits is the world's richest woman. True?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
No way is it the Queen. She doesn't own all that stuff you know. If she abdicated she doesn't get to keep Buckingham Palace.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: That you would compare Haiti under the French to Libya under Qhadafi shows how much of a simpleton you are.
Are you kidding? This is about as interesting as this thread has ever gotten. At least it's progressed from calling everyone "girls" and quarrelling over "kick ass" this that and the other. I don't know who this Arwa dude is but he (or she) sure knows how to put forward a compelling, reasoned argument.
Shouldn't you be wiring money to the girls or something? They need all the help they can get. LOL!
No need to be wiring, they just take it straight out of my taxes Yours too probably, LOL.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
yes, historically the dumb goyim has spent alot for the protection of the joos. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
ARWA, Here's an article on Libya re he imperialist it is now undergoing.
"McCain's trip comes as Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced Thursday that President Barack Obama has authorized armed Predator drones against forces loyal to Gadhafi."
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Correction above:
"Here's an article on Libya re the imperialist war it is now undergoing".
Apparently, the imperialist West(NATO) believes that there is much at stake in Libya and it Gaddafi stays in power then their plans for control would be threatened. From their geopolitical point of view they also see China as a rival that should be stopped in its tracks re Africa.
Unfortunately, potentially strong African states like Nigeria and South Africa behave as if they are dazed and drugged out concerning these matters.
The control that Euro-America had over Tunisia and Egypt is now being threatened so the Libyan conflict is a chance to win one back.
Now with fascist right-winger McCain now being welcomed in Benghazi again reveals the true colours of the fascist right-wing Benghazi mobs. Note too that one of their leaders is a known CIA agent who lived very close to CIA headquarters during a long stay in the U.S.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
And Obama and his drones over Libya. What else do you expect from such weakminded and unprincipled nonentity catapulted into power deliberately to carry out America's dirty imperialist deeds in Africa and elsewhere.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"Sen. John McCain...greeted by a crowd of roughly 100 Libyans waving American flags." LOL
100 Libyans waving U.S. flags. Frankly amazing. McCain wouldn't even get that kind of welcome in Arizona today. Wow!
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Air strike destroys buildings in Gaddafi's compound as Nato and U.S. say Predator drones could be used to assassinate leader
By Daily Mail Reporter Last updated at 9:24 AM on 25th April 2011
^Terrorism against civilian men, women and little children...
Two wrongs never make a right!
Sad day for the Gadahafis.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^Terrorism against civilian men, women and little children...
Two wrongs never make a right!
Agree
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Sad day for the Gadahafis.
I'm sure it is and it has been a sad sad couple of months or so for too many Libyans to count.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Russian Official Tells Press NATO Going into Libya
By Kenneth Rapoza
April 30, 2011 "Forbes" -- Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told the Russian press on Saturday that they were aware of a ground campaign being prepared within NATO and some European nations.
“The information we have from our channels shows that both NATO and the EU are working on similar plans,” Lavrov saind on Russian TV. Translated from the Russian, Lavrov said that the he understands the idea is for the EU to develop plans for humanitarian convoys, and that nothing would be done with NATO on the ground unless the United Nations Security Council said a ground invasion to oust Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi was within their authority.
“If anybody wants to ask for this idea for carrying out ground campaign to the UN Security Council, then we will discuss it there and try to understand what is being planned on the ground,” Lavrov said.
A NATO campaign against Libya was launched on March 17 after a late night UN Security Council resolution condemned Gadhafi’s government and military for ordering strikes against anti-government protests.
Over the weekend, the Libyan leader declared war on Italy.
Last week, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said he still didn’t understand the modus operandi behind the NATO Libya operation. According to Ria Novosti newswire in Moscow, Putin said NATO went beyond the UN’s March 16th mandate when it dropped guided missiles on Gadhafi’s government offices in Tripoli.
“What kind of no-fly zone is this if they are striking palaces every night?” Putin said in Ria Novosti. “What do they need to bomb palaces for? To drive out the mice?” Putin even went as far as suggesting that Libya’s oil resources were a main object for NATO’s interest in Libya.
Libya is not a major oil exporter to the US. Russia is a larger oil and gas exporter to Europe and the US than is Libya.
"We'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way!"
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
MelaninKing
quote: As usual, Farrakhan tells it like it truly is!
The Zionists (ADL) are controlling this Libya insurgence, and even went so far as to contaminate the $5M loan Gaddaffi extended to the the Nation Of Islam while Threatening the Chicago black bank; The Liberty Bank, and Black business, Johnson Products.
That is unfortunate about the $5M but maybe the Nation of Islam shouldn’t challenge powerful political forces when it not in a position to do so.
quote:These Zionists are like a cross between Roaches and leaches.
The more powerful Muslims in the Islamic world have no problem with supporting Zionism (secretly of course)
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"The status of the besieged Libyan city of Misrata was in question Thursday, with representatives of the opposition Transitional National Council and rebels in the city giving different accounts of who controls the strategic town."
HAHAHAHHAHHA! Monkey, exile where are you?!
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Special from Libya: Misrata gravediggers ensure religious rites for Qadhafi's fallen
Misrata – A few hundred meters from the sea, over ramshackle huts, course shrubbery, and rocky desert terrain, the bodies of Qadhafi’s slain combatants lie in a jagged column, shrouded in bloodied white cloth. A man garbed in a beige robe and skullcap sprinkles perfume on each while murmuring Islamic recitations.
The ten bodies, sheltered under a makeshift tent, will soon find their way to the adjacent cemetery where others are buried. In the small plot of land outside Libya’s besieged western port of Misrata, nearly 550 bodies are entombed in wooden boxes paved over with cement.
The majority of the graves have a number associated with them that corresponds with a picture and the possessions found on each soldier. The nearly 200 graves that do not display the identities of the fallen contain bodies ravaged beyond recognition.
As clashes continue to rage on Misrata’s two primary battlefronts – those to the east and west – the death toll continues to rise, with volunteer gravediggers taking on the ghastly work of interring the many bodies.
“Some say: ‘This is our enemy. They’ve killed and done such tragic things. Why are you doing this?’” says Abdel Hafiz Bou Qurain, the cleric charged with overseeing the burial operations. “But the Prophet obligated us to do this.”
Despite widespread reports – from Libya’s rebels and independent observers alike – suggesting that Qadhafi forces have defiled the rebel dead, military and religious authorities in Misrata are making sure each loyalist soldier killed in the conflict receives a burial in accordance with Islamic tradition.
Trucks bring in the bodies from the battlefield. The clothes are stripped and the bodies are washed. The crimson-stained bulletproof vests, boots and other articles of clothing lie in a menacing pile that emits a putrid stench. After the religious rituals, they are carried one by one on stretchers over to the boxes. The six non-Muslims collected from the battlefield occupy a non-descript graveyard outside the concrete perimeter wall, a structure built to fend off blistering coastal winds.
“We put the [Muslim] bodies tilted towards Mecca,” says volunteer Mahmoud Mofta. “This is the Islamic way.”
Although violence in urban Misrata raged unabated for nearly three months, and now has merely shifted to the port city’s outskirts, those administering the burial process here are working under the impression that lasting peace will one day return.
“In case the relatives come to ask for the missing people, then we will have the documentation and photo and they can collect the belongings. Everyone has a family,” says volunteer gravedigger and chemical engineer Mohamed Jannet.
Misrata’s rebels say many of Qadhafi’s troops are coerced into fighting or are force-fed alcohol and drugs before being sent into combat. And many in Qadhafi’s legions, the rebels say, are just children.
“They’ve been brainwashed but they are still our kids,” says Jannet. “I’m obligated [to do this work] first by religion then by nationalism.”
Soldiers on the front echo those claims. They say they’ve witnessed Qadhafi forces kill soldiers who refused to fight or who attempted to surrender. According to rebel fighter Faraj al-Misteiry, some of those who managed to surrender evidenced a lack of conviction in Qadhafi’s army.
“Some kids surrendered with full magazines,” says Misteiry. “They were crying.”
Vague and unsubstantiated reports have surfaced in recent weeks indicating that some rebels have disposed of Qadhafi’s dead in un-Islamic ways, such as simply throwing the bodies into the sea. Misteiry unequivocally dismisses such claims.
“Perhaps the reason behind such reports is to make disagreement and divide us,” says Misteiry. “In the end, all bodies must be treated with respect, like we treat our dead. We’re all human beings.”
As of Monday, there are said to be 546 bodies buried at the coastal cemetery. The number is likely a very poor reflection of Qadhafi’s total losses in Misrata, the primary rebel stronghold in Libya’s west. Aside from the hundreds of Qadhafi soldiers that have been captured, Qadhafi’s losses probably include significantly more deaths. According to international law, prisoners of war may not be interviewed by the media.
“There are thousands of bodies not buried here,” says Hisham Mohamed, a former government notary who now is responsible for handling the personal belongings of dead and captured soldiers. “According to eyewitnesses, Qadhafi’s forces have taken a lot of their dead back.”
Jannet says it was impossible for the rebels to collect all of Qadhafi’s dead due to the intensity and the indiscriminate nature of the urban assault.
“In the early days, some were not buried because we were running from the clashes and people were unable to collect the bodies,” says Jannet. “We’re still trying to look for all the bodies.”
Restrictions on access to the burial ground were earlier imposed and, according to the volunteers there, are being implemented again. Jannet says he wants coverage limited because the volunteer gravediggers fear their work will be misunderstood.
“We bury them like this, not to send a message or to impress anyone, but strictly to treat them with respect,” he says. “This is a tragedy. We don’t want to publicize it.”
What is the point of the the article above? Western imperialism is fighting the war for the Benghazi vigilantes.
These so-called rebels are just proxy on-the-ground shooters for NATO.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
When all is said and done, Libya's once reasonably tended to infrastructure will look like that of war torn Somalia.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: In terms of the control of the Libyan economy let me ask this question: which families control the bulk of the wealth in the U.S., France and Britain? How much wealth does the lazy, idle and corrupt Royal Family in Britain control? Some say that the Queen of the Brits is the world's richest woman. True?
Answer: The Rothschilds and Rockefellers, Trillionaires NEVER listed on any of the "Wealthiest" lists.
and why are they still bombing the G's compound? Like he is still there They should be looking at local hospitals, a great hideout and one that is sure not to be on the Nato Hit List.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: When all is said and done, Libya's once reasonably tended to infrastructure will look like that of war torn Somalia.
It's okay. Libya had ugly socialist architecture anyway. They have more than 80 Billion to rebuild their country. And countless cash flow thanks to their oil. Quite the envy.
In other news - Russia is on board with ousting Qadaffi. Kind of ironic, that Qadaffi asked from Russia's help and their official reply is "you must step down"
It is okay for you, since you didn't put years upon years of labor and money into building the infrastructure that war jets are reducing into rubble in just a few days. However, it is not okay for those whose protracted hard work and resources went into it, to see their work go up in smoke virtually over night. Nor is it okay, that it has cost the lives of their loved ones, which "countless cash flow" will not bring back.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It is okay for you, since you didn't put years upon years of labor and money into building the infrastructure that war jets are reducing into rubble in just a few days. However, it is not okay for those whose protracted hard work and resources went into it, to see their work go up in smoke virtually over night. Nor is it okay, that it has cost the lives of their loved ones, which "countless cash flow" will not bring back.
Unfortunately freedom comes with a price. My point was a simple - they will prevail.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
A bunch of thugs cannot be role models of freedom. Freedom, if it were the initiative of the people and undertaken by them alone, then yes, they would have prepared to handle the "price" for it, and that would have been the price worth paying for. This bloodshed in Libya is nothing like the peoples' rise against despots in either Tunisia or Egypt. This bloodshed and destruction was made in France.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Actually it was made by an Arab who goes by the name of Muammar Muhammed al-Qadaffi.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Egyptian Christians: "We did not risk our lives to bring Mubarak down in order to have him replaced by Salafists"
CAIRO (Reuters) - Last January, Nazih Moussa Gerges locked up his downtown Cairo law office and joined hundreds of thousands of fellow Egyptians to demand that President Hosni Mubarak step down. The 33-year-old Christian lawyer was back on the streets this month to press military rulers who took over after Mubarak stepped down to end a spate of sectarian attacks that have killed at least 28 people and left many afraid.
Those who camped out in Tahrir Square side by side with Muslims to call for national renewal now fear their struggle is being hijacked by ultra-conservative Salafist Islamists with no one to stop them.
[For Reuters, an "ultra-conservative" is someone who wants to impose Sharia on a society, and simultaneously an "ultra-conservative" is someone who opposes the imposition of Sharia on a society. Hence a politician like Geert Wilders is routinely described as "far right," even though he opposes these "ultra-conservatives."]
"We did not risk our lives to bring Mubarak down in order to have him replaced by Salafists," Gerges said. "We want an Egypt that will be an example of democracy and freedom for the whole world." [...] Egypt's military rulers have vowed to punish those behind sectarian clashes, banned demonstrations outside places of worship and promised to give Christians equal rights.
But Christians say no one has been tried yet for the burning of a church in Helwan, south of Cairo, in March or for violence in the Cairo suburb of Imbaba on May 7 that left 15 people dead. At least 13 died in clashes after the Helwan incident.
The army has said 190 people will face trial over the Imbaba clashes, which began when a group of Salafists demanded to look inside a church where they suspected a female convert to Islam was being held against her will.
IRON FIST?
When Christians gathered to worship in the eastern Cairo district of Ain Shams last week, they said Salafists and other local Muslims blocked access to the church and pelted them with cinder blocks.
The Christians said they had to abandon their attempt after security forces arrested eight of them.
"The General has said he will strike with an iron fist. Where is the iron fist?" said Marcelino Youssef, a spokesman for a Christian youth group that has been leading protests against sectarian attacks. He was referring to Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who heads Egypt's ruling military council. [...]
Some blame leaders of Egypt's Coptic church for cultivating fear of Muslims, in turn stoking sectarian tension by making the Christian community more defensive.
"The Church has promoted a fear of Muslims, arguing that the Egyptian people lack awareness and that democracy will not work in our context," Muslim political scientist Amr Shobaki wrote in a column in newspaper al-Masry al-Youm on May 14. [...]
Gerges recalls bitterly the time when he applied to join the prosecutor's office in southern Cairo soon after graduating from Ain Shams University with distinction.
He said he was told by the recruiting official that his qualifications made him the ideal candidate.
"Then he looked at my family name and shook his head."
For Gerges, the message was clear: a Muslim gets priority over a Christian when it comes to government jobs.
Egyptian Christians say discrimination against them starts in school.
"Coptic history has been removed" from textbooks, said Imbaba priest Sarabamon Abdo Rizeq. "How is a Muslim going to love me if he doesn't know anything about my Christianity?"
At a sit-in outside state TV headquarters by the Nile in central Cairo, protesters posted a list of what they called "The Copts' Demands."
They included giving Christians equal access to government jobs, recognizing Egypt's Coptic history by making it part of the school curriculum, and easing restrictions on the construction of churches.
Christians complain that under laws inherited from Ottoman rule, Copts are required to obtain special permits from the head of state to build or repair a church.
"Our demands are actually basic rights," said Malak Maher, 33, one of the protesters. "We want equality."
Actually it was made by an Arab who goes by the name of Muammar Muhammed al-Qadaffi.
To say that Gaddafi "made this Libyan conflict", one would have to go back to day 1 of his presidency so as to say that this was the day he started it, because from that point on, he was the target of a series of assassination attempts by 'western' governments, which he has survived; the current destruction of Libya is nothing more than the latest rounds of assassination attempt by the usual 'western' suspects, aka France, UK and USA. This comes after Gaddafi had recently given economic and military concessions to these same suspects, but France still felt like a player in the Libyan economy--but not a primary player. The USA and UK were not to be outdone by the French, in the French military interference thereof. This affair is captured as follows...
"French firms are determined to climb higher in the ranks of Libya’s trading partners. Italy is currently in number one position, with China second and France a distant sixth." - Maghreb Confidential, France, December, 2010.
Try reading Italian reporter, Franco Bechis of the Italian news outlet, "Libero"; citing certain French websites, particularly "Maghreb Confidential", as a primary source in a number of occasions, he essentially spells out in his article, ‘Sarko’ manipulated the Libyan revolt -- dated to March 23, 2011, how France is implicated in the engineering of the anti-Gaddafi demonstrations in Benghazi, that paved way for the current destruction of Libya by NATO war jets. Courtesy of wsws.org, the following excerpts give a pretty good indication of a series of events in the lead up to French involvement in engineering anti-Gaddafi rebellion in Benghazi:
"On November 2, 2010, France and Great Britain signed an unprecedented agreement on defence and security. The Franco-British exercise Southern Mistral falls within the scope of this treaty. It is scheduled to take place from 21 to 25 March 2011 on several French air bases. On this occasion, the French and British forces will perform Composite Air Operations and a specific air raid (Southern Storm), delivering a very long range conventional strike." - courtesy of Southern Mistral website, c/o French Airforce.
This exercise was subsequently cancelled due to the French and British military interference in Libya, but Libya was to serve as a practical theater for these long range air strikes.
"on paper a commercial expedition to get juicy contracts in Benghazi. But there were also French military men in the group, disguised as businessmen. In Benghazi they met a Libyan air force colonel, Abdallah Gehani. He was above all suspicion, but Gaddafi’s ex-protocol chief had revealed that he was ready to desert and that he had excellent contacts in Tunisian dissident circles. The operation was carried out in great secrecy, but news reached the people closest to Kadhafi. The colonel got suspicious." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
Under French custody...
"Fearing for his life, Mesmari has asked for political asylum. Officially, Libya claims he embezzled money. Formerly close to Muammer Kadhafi, he has been described as a ‘Libyan Wikileak’ because of everything he knows about the regime. Anticipating that others might defect, Tripoli is confiscating the passports of several officials, including foreign minister Mussa Kussa, who is also being investigated for fraud." - Maghreb Confidential, France, December 9, 2010.
The following individuals, both pro-Gaddafi and Gaddafi defectors, were implicated in trying to get Nuri Mesmari to return to Libya...
"On December 16 it was Abdallah Mansour, the head of Libyan television, who tried. French authorities arrested him in the entrance of the [Concorde Lafayette] hotel. On December 23 more Libyans arrived in Paris: Farj Charrani, Fathi Boukhris, and All Ounes Mansouri." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
"Moatassim Kadhafi, left Paris alone on February 5. The son of Muammar Kadhafi, who had been staying at the luxury Bristol hotel since late January, failed to persuade Nuri Mesmari to return home. Kadhafi’s former chief of protocol, Mesmari was officially in Paris for medical reasons but was briefly held by the French authorities after Libya issued an arrest warrant against him. While claiming ‘everything has now been resolved’ with Libya, Mesmari seems reluctant to return without iron-clad ‘guarantees.’" - Franco Bechis, March 23.
"General Aoudh Saaiti, head of military intelligence in eastern Libya (Benghazi), a historically rebellious region, has been ordered to crack down on any demonstration of sympathy for the Tunisian revolution. The central government reproaches some officers of spending too much time on social networks on the Internet which tend to fan protests. Several officers have been arrested, including air force colonel Abdallah Gehani." - Maghreb Confidential, France, January 27, 2011.
"Benghazi has long been a thorn in Colonel Kadhafi ‘s side. Libya’s second-largest ‘Egyptian’ city has historically been a hotbed of rebellion, and it is living up to its reputation. Of eight activists arrested in recent days, six belong to the February 17 Movement, named after the bloody crackdown on anti-government demonstrators in Benghazi on February 17, 2006. They are Farj Charrani, Fathi Boukhris, Ali Ounes Mansouri, Safiddin Hilal Sahrif, Jalal Kouafi, and, of course, [Jamal] Al Hajji." - Maghreb Confidential, France, February 17, 2011.
"But it was too late: Gehani had already prepared a revolt in Benghazi with the French." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: It's okay. Libya had ugly socialist architecture anyway. They have more than 80 Billion to rebuild their country.
Ideologues tend to be dogmatic about ends, casual about means. You are just as ideological (and blood thirty) as Bin Laden.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^If your end is to stay healthily alive and therefor to stave off a rabid zombified Dick Cheney are you all that conservative and formal about your means or more casual?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
WTF does a zombie and Dick Cheney have to do with USrael in Libya?
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^It obviously has more to do with your ideologue comment in particular than the thread in general Einstein. Too complicated a scenario for you?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Your analogy is still wack, like your sexual orientation queer. To stave someone or something off (in this case your Zombie) when that thing threatens your life is not "ideological". Its just basic self defense for self preservation. Fuk off.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Actually it was made by an Arab who goes by the name of Muammar Muhammed al-Qadaffi.
To say that Gaddafi "made this Libyan conflict", one would have to go back to day 1 of his presidency so as to say that this was the day he started it, because from that point on, he was the target of a series of assassination attempts by 'western' governments, which he has survived; the current destruction of Libya is nothing more than the latest rounds of assassination attempt by the usual 'western' suspects, aka France, UK and USA. This comes after Gaddafi had recently given economic and military concessions to these same suspects, but France still felt like a player in the Libyan economy--but not a primary player. The USA and UK were not to be outdone by the French, in the French military interference thereof. This affair is captured as follows...
"French firms are determined to climb higher in the ranks of Libya’s trading partners. Italy is currently in number one position, with China second and France a distant sixth." - Maghreb Confidential, France, December, 2010.
Try reading Italian reporter, Franco Bechis of the Italian news outlet, "Libero"; citing certain French websites, particularly "Maghreb Confidential", as a primary source in a number of occasions, he essentially spells out in his article, ‘Sarko’ manipulated the Libyan revolt -- dated to March 23, 2011, how France is implicated in the engineering of the anti-Gaddafi demonstrations in Benghazi, that paved way for the current destruction of Libya by NATO war jets. Courtesy of wsws.org, the following excerpts give a pretty good indication of a series of events in the lead up to French involvement in engineering anti-Gaddafi rebellion in Benghazi:
"On November 2, 2010, France and Great Britain signed an unprecedented agreement on defence and security. The Franco-British exercise Southern Mistral falls within the scope of this treaty. It is scheduled to take place from 21 to 25 March 2011 on several French air bases. On this occasion, the French and British forces will perform Composite Air Operations and a specific air raid (Southern Storm), delivering a very long range conventional strike." - courtesy of Southern Mistral website, c/o French Airforce.
This exercise was subsequently cancelled due to the French and British military interference in Libya, but Libya was to serve as a practical theater for these long range air strikes.
"on paper a commercial expedition to get juicy contracts in Benghazi. But there were also French military men in the group, disguised as businessmen. In Benghazi they met a Libyan air force colonel, Abdallah Gehani. He was above all suspicion, but Gaddafi’s ex-protocol chief had revealed that he was ready to desert and that he had excellent contacts in Tunisian dissident circles. The operation was carried out in great secrecy, but news reached the people closest to Kadhafi. The colonel got suspicious." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
Under French custody...
"Fearing for his life, Mesmari has asked for political asylum. Officially, Libya claims he embezzled money. Formerly close to Muammer Kadhafi, he has been described as a ‘Libyan Wikileak’ because of everything he knows about the regime. Anticipating that others might defect, Tripoli is confiscating the passports of several officials, including foreign minister Mussa Kussa, who is also being investigated for fraud." - Maghreb Confidential, France, December 9, 2010.
The following individuals, both pro-Gaddafi and Gaddafi defectors, were implicated in trying to get Nuri Mesmari to return to Libya...
"On December 16 it was Abdallah Mansour, the head of Libyan television, who tried. French authorities arrested him in the entrance of the [Concorde Lafayette] hotel. On December 23 more Libyans arrived in Paris: Farj Charrani, Fathi Boukhris, and All Ounes Mansouri." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
"Moatassim Kadhafi, left Paris alone on February 5. The son of Muammar Kadhafi, who had been staying at the luxury Bristol hotel since late January, failed to persuade Nuri Mesmari to return home. Kadhafi’s former chief of protocol, Mesmari was officially in Paris for medical reasons but was briefly held by the French authorities after Libya issued an arrest warrant against him. While claiming ‘everything has now been resolved’ with Libya, Mesmari seems reluctant to return without iron-clad ‘guarantees.’" - Franco Bechis, March 23.
"General Aoudh Saaiti, head of military intelligence in eastern Libya (Benghazi), a historically rebellious region, has been ordered to crack down on any demonstration of sympathy for the Tunisian revolution. The central government reproaches some officers of spending too much time on social networks on the Internet which tend to fan protests. Several officers have been arrested, including air force colonel Abdallah Gehani." - Maghreb Confidential, France, January 27, 2011.
"Benghazi has long been a thorn in Colonel Kadhafi ‘s side. Libya’s second-largest ‘Egyptian’ city has historically been a hotbed of rebellion, and it is living up to its reputation. Of eight activists arrested in recent days, six belong to the February 17 Movement, named after the bloody crackdown on anti-government demonstrators in Benghazi on February 17, 2006. They are Farj Charrani, Fathi Boukhris, Ali Ounes Mansouri, Safiddin Hilal Sahrif, Jalal Kouafi, and, of course, [Jamal] Al Hajji." - Maghreb Confidential, France, February 17, 2011.
"But it was too late: Gehani had already prepared a revolt in Benghazi with the French." - Franco Bechis, March 23, 2011.
Sarkozy is an opportunist but the chaos we're seeing now was fermented by non other than Muammar Qadaffi. Had he ruled with some level of civility then France/NATO would not have been a factor. But he didn't and the uprising gave mutual opportunities to France and the Libyan people. It is a win-win situation. All this nonsense about the revolutionaries being “thugs” is just that - nonsense. Unless you believe Libya is a nation of Millions of thugs, because the red black and green Libyan flag is raised in Benhgazi, Misarata, Tabruk, Adjabeya, Baida, Zentan, etc, etc, and numerous clan areas. It's apparent nothing is for free and France wants it's lucrative contracts and oil deals, then so be it. This wouldn't be a precedent, it happen before (Korea, etc) and it will happen again. Dealing with a western European power is endlessly better than dealing with a wretched madman who has committed numerous atrocities throughout his 42 year reign of hell. What's great about this war it was done in accordance with international law. There is protection for all involved. Libya will be rebuilt and it will become more prosperous than ever. There are too many fallacies going around about Libya being totally devastated. Misarat is, but who's fault is that? All of East Libya is practically unscathed. The targets that NATO are selecting are mostly Qadaffi targets. They destroyed the navy the other day but left the port in tripoli intact. There is too much exaggeration and this is also common as people have biases. Sure I get it, he did some good things for black African states (e.g. helped ANC), but heck even Bush initiated a multi billion dollar ongoing AIDS relief program for Africa. This doesn't change the fact that Muammar Qadaffi is a murderous tyrant, and getting rid of him is what millions of Libyans want. After all it is about Libya.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: It's okay. Libya had ugly socialist architecture anyway. They have more than 80 Billion to rebuild their country.
Ideologues tend to be dogmatic about ends, casual about means. You are just as ideological (and blood thirty) as Bin Laden.
Funny you should mention “blood thirsty”, anguishina, because you have no qualms with Qadaffi's goons bombarding civilians in Misarata for months on end with grad artillery. Reports are no building is left untouched. But when genuine elation is expressed at NATO giving Qadaffi and his goons a taste of their own medicine, you get all dramatic and hissy.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Funny you should mention “blood thirsty”, anguishina, because you have no qualms with Qadaffi's goons bombarding civilians in Misarata for months on end with grad artillery.
You conveniently omit the fact that there has been a terrorist onslaught for months on end. Unless you are an anarchist, which I doubt your dumb pro-Obama ass is, the state has a right to maintain law and order. Armed uprisings, especially when there is no peoples support, is backward but in line with al queda. How does the actions of your thugs further progress in that country? Those thugs have hijacked a genuine reform movement which is why they have virtually no support inside Libya. How long has it been now? Why no broad "peoples" uprising against evil regime? Libyans clearly dont want another Iraq. The destruction and chaos now is result of al queda crazies and you know it.
quote:But when genuine elation is expressed
You are genuinely elated at the destruction of Libya? You must have came all over yourself during Bush's invasion of Iraq.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Sarkozy is an opportunist but the chaos we're seeing now was fermented by non other than Muammar Qadaffi. Had he ruled with some level of civility then France/NATO would not have been a factor. But he didn't and the uprising gave mutual opportunities to France and the Libyan people. It is a win-win situation. All this nonsense about the revolutionaries being “thugs” is just that - nonsense. Unless you believe Libya is a nation of Millions of thugs, because the red black and green Libyan flag is raised in Benhgazi, Misarata, Tabruk, Adjabeya, Baida, Zentan, etc, etc, and numerous clan areas. It's apparent nothing is for free and France wants it's lucrative contracts and oil deals, then so be it. This wouldn't be a precedent, it happen before (Korea, etc) and it will happen again. Dealing with a western European power is endlessly better than dealing with a wretched madman who has committed numerous atrocities throughout his 42 year reign of hell. What's great about this war it was done in accordance with international law. There is protection for all involved. Libya will be rebuilt and it will become more prosperous than ever. There are too many fallacies going around about Libya being totally devastated. Misarat is, but who's fault is that? All of East Libya is practically unscathed. The targets that NATO are selecting are mostly Qadaffi targets. They destroyed the navy the other day but left the port in tripoli intact. There is too much exaggeration and this is also common as people have biases. Sure I get it, he did some good things for black African states (e.g. helped ANC), but heck even Bush initiated a multi billion dollar ongoing AIDS relief program for Africa. This doesn't change the fact that Muammar Qadaffi is a murderous tyrant, and getting rid of him is what millions of Libyans want. After all it is about Libya.
You shrug them off with contemptuous excuses for Sarkozy and his Libyan ally thugs (your "revolutionaries") being merely "opportunists", but the facts I just brought to your attention has accomplished their intended mission [LOL, something that Bush can learn from before standing in front of a "Mission Accomplished" banner]: To refute your protestation against the Libyan bloodshed (your "revolution") being "made in France".
The facts reinforce my point about the destruction of Libya being nothing like the popular struggles of Tunisia and Egypt, which were by the people rather than some concoction of Sarkozy, Obama or Cameron in the comfort of their pajamas, safely away from Libya.
A "revolution" made in Paris by rich fat (or short, in Sarkozy's case) French ruling class personalities and defected Gaddafi generals/officials cannot possibly be a genuine revolution of any peoples, and at that, of Libya. There is something about "demonstrations in Benghazi--which started this whole affair--being authored by the French and some ex-Gaddafi personality" that doesn't seem to compute in your head, as you seem to confuse it with some proactive natural popular reaction ("uprising") to Gaddafi's heavy-handed rule. France and its 'western' friends have had Gaddafi in their crosshair targets from day 1 of the guy's ascension to power; you've been briefed that this latest episode is just part of a long line of assassination attempts; how then "can they not be a factor"? You act as though this is your first time learning about this preoccupation with targeting the guy for assassination.
The assassination campaign, contrary to your belief, is not "accordance with international law". In fact, it is the anti-thesis of the very resolution the "enforcers" claim to be "enforcing".
I gather that you are not acquainted with the meaning of "nonsense", when you dismiss astute description of NATO's Libyan proxy "boots on the ground" as thugs. Killing civilians execution style, kidnapping them, targeting immigrants and certain segments of the local population (in this case "black") are by no stretch of imagination humanitarian gestures. Just because "CNN won't mention them", does not mean that they aren't happening.
I see that Bush's propaganda about donating towards AIDS relief in Africa has got you hooked, like other propaganda from 'western' aristocrats. Places [e.g. Uganda] where the epidemic is/was on the decline, come from progressive local initiatives, while in other places, the outcome isn't so fortunate [e.g. in South Africa it is still a problem], continued to be so. In other words, Bush's is "a non factor", to use your words.
Your song about getting "rid of the Libyan tyrant will do a million wonders for Libyans" comes right from the Washington public relations textbook for dummies. Remember the line about the "bogeyman Saddam" [including the "mushroom cloud", "uranium from Liberia" et al.], how that overrides the evil intentions behind Washington's violation of Iraqi sovereignty and how Iraqis would be better off without the bogeyman? Iraq turned out to be quite a paradise, hasn't it. Now watch this space for Exiiled's next excuses.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
David Cameron resigns as patron of the Jewish National Fund
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Funny you should mention “blood thirsty”, anguishina, because you have no qualms with Qadaffi's goons bombarding civilians in Misarata for months on end with grad artillery.
You conveniently omit the fact that there has been a terrorist onslaught for months on end. Unless you are an anarchist, which I doubt your dumb pro-Obama ass is, the state has a right to maintain law and order. Armed uprisings, especially when there is no peoples support, is backward but in line with al queda. How does the actions of your thugs further progress in that country? Those thugs have hijacked a genuine reform movement which is why they have virtually no support inside Libya. How long has it been now? Why no broad "peoples" uprising against evil regime? Libyans clearly dont want another Iraq. The destruction and chaos now is result of al queda crazies and you know it.
quote:But when genuine elation is expressed
You are genuinely elated at the destruction of Libya? You must have came all over yourself during Bush's invasion of Iraq.
How about quoting an entire sentence rather than selectively choosing 3 words. And BTW no I didn't, but on numerous occasions did on black chicks. Mostly light skinned/coolies/mulattoes but definitely some rich pure chocolate as well. Yeah had a thing for chocolate.
Sarkozy is an opportunist but the chaos we're seeing now was fermented by non other than Muammar Qadaffi. Had he ruled with some level of civility then France/NATO would not have been a factor. But he didn't and the uprising gave mutual opportunities to France and the Libyan people. It is a win-win situation. All this nonsense about the revolutionaries being “thugs” is just that - nonsense. Unless you believe Libya is a nation of Millions of thugs, because the red black and green Libyan flag is raised in Benhgazi, Misarata, Tabruk, Adjabeya, Baida, Zentan, etc, etc, and numerous clan areas. It's apparent nothing is for free and France wants it's lucrative contracts and oil deals, then so be it. This wouldn't be a precedent, it happen before (Korea, etc) and it will happen again. Dealing with a western European power is endlessly better than dealing with a wretched madman who has committed numerous atrocities throughout his 42 year reign of hell. What's great about this war it was done in accordance with international law. There is protection for all involved. Libya will be rebuilt and it will become more prosperous than ever. There are too many fallacies going around about Libya being totally devastated. Misarat is, but who's fault is that? All of East Libya is practically unscathed. The targets that NATO are selecting are mostly Qadaffi targets. They destroyed the navy the other day but left the port in tripoli intact. There is too much exaggeration and this is also common as people have biases. Sure I get it, he did some good things for black African states (e.g. helped ANC), but heck even Bush initiated a multi billion dollar ongoing AIDS relief program for Africa. This doesn't change the fact that Muammar Qadaffi is a murderous tyrant, and getting rid of him is what millions of Libyans want. After all it is about Libya.
You shrug them off with contemptuous excuses for Sarkozy and his Libyan ally thugs (your "revolutionaries") being merely "opportunists", but the facts I just brought to your attention has accomplished their intended mission [LOL, something that Bush can learn from before standing in front of a "Mission Accomplished" banner]: To refute your protestation against the Libyan bloodshed (your "revolution") being "made in France".
The facts reinforce my point about the destruction of Libya being nothing like the popular struggles of Tunisia and Egypt, which were by the people rather than some concoction of Sarkozy, Obama or Cameron in the comfort of their pajamas, safely away from Libya.
A "revolution" made in Paris by rich fat (or short, in Sarkozy's case) French ruling class personalities and defected Gaddafi generals/officials cannot possibly be a genuine revolution of any peoples, and at that, of Libya. There is something about "demonstrations in Benghazi--which started this whole affair--being authored by the French and some ex-Gaddafi personality" that doesn't seem to compute in your head, as you seem to confuse it with some proactive natural popular reaction ("uprising") to Gaddafi's heavy-handed rule. France and its 'western' friends have had Gaddafi in their crosshair targets from day 1 of the guy's ascension to power; you've been briefed that this latest episode is just part of a long line of assassination attempts; how then "can they not be a factor"? You act as though this is your first time learning about this preoccupation with targeting the guy for assassination.
The assassination campaign, contrary to your belief, is not "accordance with international law". In fact, it is the anti-thesis of the very resolution the "enforcers" claim to be "enforcing".
I gather that you are not acquainted with the meaning of "nonsense", when you dismiss astute description of NATO's Libyan proxy "boots on the ground" as thugs. Killing civilians execution style, kidnapping them, targeting immigrants and certain segments of the local population (in this case "black") are by no stretch of imagination humanitarian gestures. Just because "CNN won't mention them", does not mean that they aren't happening.
I see that Bush's propaganda about donating towards AIDS relief in Africa has got you hooked, like other propaganda from 'western' aristocrats. Places [e.g. Uganda] where the epidemic is/was on the decline, come from progressive local initiatives, while in other places, the outcome isn't so fortunate [e.g. in South Africa it is still a problem], continued to be so. In other words, Bush's is "a non factor", to use your words.
Your song about getting "rid of the Libyan tyrant will do a million wonders for Libyans" comes right from the Washington public relations textbook for dummies. Remember the line about the "bogeyman Saddam" [including the "mushroom cloud", "uranium from Liberia" et al.], how that overrides the evil intentions behind Washington's violation of Iraqi sovereignty and how Iraqis would be better off without the bogeyman? Iraq turned out to be quite a paradise, hasn't it. Now watch this space for Exiiled's next excuses.
You're awaiting excuses? Welcome to my world because that's all I have read from you so far. It's understandable as we have fundamental differences. Chief of all is your unconditional support and sympathy for Qadaffi. Irrespective of the documented atrocities he committed. You stated you would have supported the uprising if it were popular uprising similar to that of Tunisia and Egypt. Well tell you what, the military of both Tunisia and Egypt did not unleash their weaponry might on protesters and demonstrators. That's right, the Tunisia/Egyptian Army, Air Force and Navy did not attack the people unlike the Libyan military. They defied the orders of Ben Ali and Mubarak. They stood down, can't say the same for Libya, can we?
Another fundamental difference is your contention that revolutionariness are thugs, to which I countered - "is Libya a nation of millions of thugs?” That's right the uprising is across the board or maybe you choose to close your eyes to this fact. Maybe you neglect to grasp the fact that the uprising is across Libya and not limited to East Libya. Here are come cities and towns where heavy fighting is occurring between revolutionaries and Qadaffi goons: Wazen, Zintan, Rogeban, Gharyan, Yafran, Qalaa, Jalaa, etc.
People from all ethnicities have revolted against the Qadaffi regime, including the Amazigh (their pledge is on youtube). Black Libyans from former UN ambassador Abdel Rahman Shalgham to a black Libyan mother who is learning to use an AK to help overthrow Qadaffi (on youtube too). And ask yourself, why is she picking up an AK? Maybe it's because unlike Tunisia and Egypt, the murderous Qadaffi has unleashed his military might on the people. And as far as NATO is concerned, don't you think it's honest? Seriously the tyrant is hiring mercenaries from Serbia, Belarus, Sub-Saharan Africa, Syria, Algeria, etc, who are killing Libyan civilians by the day. Now what kind of civilian uprising can overtake an Army with mercenariness, tanks, armored personnel carriers, etc. NATO evened the playing field, don't you think!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Unlike the masses in Tunisia and Egypt the girls of Benghazi took up arms against the state. Its not a broad based uprising as whenever they try to take their "revolution" outside their "base" they have to run back home, even Faux News Jew Geraldo said they were the worse group of girls he had ever seen in battle. But NATO will help them destroy the place, another Iraq, so you will be able to bust a nut once again.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Unlike the masses in Tunisia and Egypt the girls of Benghazi took up arms against the state. Its not a broad based uprising as whenever they try to take their "revolution" outside their "base" they have to run back home, even Faux News Jew Geraldo said they were the worse group of girls he had ever seen in battle. But NATO will help them destroy the place, another Iraq, so you will be able to bust a nut once again.
Excuse me but are you attempting to distort history? Qadaffi unleashed his military might and mercenary goons way before the revolutionaries picked up a single weapon. And why are you obsessed with my semen. That's two posts in a row you commented on my semen. LOL
I knew it, I knew you were on my tip What can I say, I have that effect on bytches. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Bytch please. The revolts in Libya and Egypt were always differentiated based on the level of mass support, violence and the tribal element. From the beginning the demonstrations in Libya were accompanied by violent elements, those who touched police stations and attacked warehouses for weapons etc.
Also in the first few days it was CNN et al. who were desperately trying justify the violence by "reporting" the number of people supposedly killed by the regime, with no evidence whatsoever other than their "anonymous sources". Then came Obeidy, then came NATO to "save" civilians (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, another Iraq regardless. History repeats itself in such a short time and you will be able to bust a nut once more. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Bytch please. The revolts in Libya and Egypt were always differentiated based on the level of mass support, violence and the tribal element. From the beginning the demonstrations in Libya were accompanied by violent elements, those who touched police stations and attacked warehouses for weapons etc.
Also in the first few days it was CNN et al. who were desperately trying justify the violence by "reporting" the number of people supposedly killed by the regime, with no evidence whatsoever other than their "anonymous sources". Then came Obeidy, then came NATO to "save" civilians (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, another Iraq regardless. History repeats itself in such a short time and you will be able to bust a nut once more.
You are blatantly distorting history. Libyans took to the streets demonstrating without any weapons. When the uprising spread, Qadaffi's response was vicious, even using mercenaries. If you're a Libyan and your leader is firing anti-aircraft bullets at civilian neighborhoods what would you do. If your leader hires mercenaries to shoot your neighbors, what would you do? Stop making excuses for the tyrant. You even ridicule the revolutionaries as “girls”, these are ordinary people who never fired a weapon. Students, doctors, teachers, etc. Doesn't this statement by you, give you any kind of sense of reality that these folk are ordinary people who never handled weapons before. They stood up. and then the Libyan police/army defectors in Benghazi and other cities started to hand them weapons.
Distort history all you want. It's online and it's everywhere.
As for my "nut" that's 3 posts in a row you mentioned my semen. You are so on my tip. It's cool.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:You are blatantly distorting history. Libyans took to the streets demonstrating without any weapons.
Nope, just facts, no distortion of history. Learn to read, I said "the demonstrations in Libya were *accompanied* by violent elements".Of course there were nonviolent demonstrations, however from the *start* there were the crazies who touched police stations and attacked warehouses for weapons; atrocity stories during the first couple of days of the anti-Qaddafi demonstrations are all from the same sources: the girls and their sympathizers i.e. not credible. The same "anonymous" sources even CNN had to admit they couldn't verify although that didn't stop them from repeating them ad nauseam. Thats text book propaganda. Just like the "rape victim" Obeidy, these reports of early killings (some 200 +) by the regime and alleged mercenaries were never proven. Oh, and there are no "revolutionaries" in Benghazi, only girls even sympathetic Faux News Jew Geraldo couldn't pretend they were men. Its *obvious* they are cowards with no mass support in the country. But your vision is going due to over masturbation, busting too much nut at the sight of yet another destruction of Usrael's enemies.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
EXIILED,
Here is a more serious analysis of the fascist and racist Benghazi mob behaviour than you have been dogmatically and naively presenting.
quote:You are blatantly distorting history. Libyans took to the streets demonstrating without any weapons.
Nope, just facts, no distortion of history. Learn to read, I said "the demonstrations in Libya were *accompanied* by violent elements".Of course there were nonviolent demonstrations, however from the *start* there were the crazies who touched police stations and attacked warehouses for weapons; atrocity stories during the first couple of days of the anti-Qaddafi demonstrations are all from the same sources: the girls and their sympathizers i.e. not credible. The same "anonymous" sources even CNN had to admit they couldn't verify although that didn't stop them from repeating them ad nauseam. Thats text book propaganda. Just like the "rape victim" Obeidy, these reports of early killings (some 200 +) by the regime and alleged mercenaries were never proven. Oh, and there are no "revolutionaries" in Benghazi, only girls even sympathetic Faux News Jew Geraldo couldn't pretend they were men. Its *obvious* they are cowards with no mass support in the country. But your vision is going due to over masturbation, busting too much nut at the sight of yet another destruction of Usrael's enemies.
History will be written in new Libyan History books, in a New Libya that will forever be free from the tyrant. So spare me your take on history.
And what's up with your obsession with my semen? LOL
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: EXIILED, Here is a more serious analysis of the fascist and racist Benghazi mob behaviour than you have been dogmatically and naively presenting. http://counterpunch.com/johnstone06022011.html
History repeats itself.
quote:History will be written in new Libyan History books,
Of this I have no doubt.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Even Qatar wants nothing to do with this nut case.
*Alleged* Libyan rape victim deported from Qatar back to Libya
^ notice the qualification by CNN. When, if repeated enough times, eventually becomes....
"Forcibly returning a refugee who survived gang rape not only violates international law, but is cruel and could trigger further trauma," said Bill Frelick, refugee program director at Human Rights Watch."
Was it ever proven that she was in fact gang raped? Doesn't matter really, when you are in the business of propaganda does it?
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Hey anguishedbitch I see you still trying to figure out this stuff. Whatcha gon' do tell me go f..k myself. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
EXIILED,
Another challenge for your naive support of white imperialism against Africa--now that Russia has joined that historically predatory gang: U.S., France, Britain, Italy and the rest of NATO
I'm not awaiting more excuses, I'm expecting them. Waiting for something requires a desire to care for it.
quote: Welcome to my world because that's all I have read from you so far.
It makes sense for you to want to "welcome me to your world", as you are fully aware I don't live in that kind of a world--a world of excuses, which contradicts your complaint about reading excuse. And in any case, "excuse" must be one of those words you are not acquainted with. There is a difference between supplying facts and rambling on with emotional pleas to be heard. The former describes my operation, and that latter, your's. If you disagree with that, I'm fine with examining what specific post of mine you declare an "excuse" rather than fact.
quote: It's understandable as we have fundamental differences.
Yes, I churn out facts, supported by official records and leaked memos. You offer "passionate" opinions on the other hand. That is indeed a fundamental difference between us.
quote: Chief of all is your unconditional support and sympathy for Qadaffi.
As reflected where?...that he has been the subject of a series of failed assassination attempts by 'western' governments, extending from early in his reign to the current destruction of Libya? Clarify.
quote: You stated you would have supported the uprising if it were popular uprising similar to that of Tunisia and Egypt.
You are imagining things. All I did, was to make a distinction between genuine popular uprising and some rebellion manufactured in the "west". Don't you think it's a good idea to first understand what you're being told, so you won't feel compelled to wrongly interpret them...I dunno, like say, calling facts "excuses"?
quote: Well tell you what, the military of both Tunisia and Egypt did not unleash their weaponry might on protesters and demonstrators.
False!...like almost every other thing you say.
quote:
Another fundamental difference is your contention that revolutionariness are thugs, to which I countered - "is Libya a nation of millions of thugs?”
Again, confusing "facts" with something else. I did not bestow this label on your "revolutionaries"; facts do. When you callously murder people because of their skin color, kidnap and execute civilians, that makes you a thug...and that's putting it politely.
quote: That's right the uprising is across the board or maybe you choose to close your eyes to this fact.
More delusion accepted as "fact". Benghazi [or parts of eastern Libya for that matter] is not "across the board" by any stretch of the imagination.
You only need to test your imagination with common sense, like say, how Gaddafi forces, whom are all but essentially out-gunned, thanks in no small part to law-busting NATO bombings and supply of weaponry, continue to outmaneuver the highly incompetent rebel thugs without any support whatsoever from Libyan civilians. With that kind of support [the rebellious thugs are getting], there shouldn't be a stalemate in Libya to this point.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Exiiled here's another question to stump you with, in response to your earlier claim that..."Dealing with a western European power is endlessly better than dealing with a wretched madman who has committed numerous atrocities..."
By this, it follows that you're in full agreement with the idea that Yemen is "endlessly better" off with Saleh's tyrany, since after all, he is the "west's wretched madman"; am I correct?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
You're awaiting excuses?
I'm not awaiting more excuses, I'm expecting them. Waiting for something requires a desire to care for it.
quote: Welcome to my world because that's all I have read from you so far.
It makes sense for you to want to "welcome me to your world", as you are fully aware I don't live in that kind of a world--a world of excuses, which contradicts your complaint about reading excuse. And in any case, "excuse" must be one of those words you are not acquainted with. There is a difference between supplying facts and rambling on with emotional pleas to be heard. The former describes my operation, and that latter, your's. If you disagree with that, I'm fine with examining what specific post of mine you declare an "excuse" rather than fact.
quote: It's understandable as we have fundamental differences.
Yes, I churn out facts, supported by official records and leaked memos. You offer "passionate" opinions on the other hand. That is indeed a fundamental difference between us.
quote: Chief of all is your unconditional support and sympathy for Qadaffi.
As reflected where?...that he has been the subject of a series of failed assassination attempts by 'western' governments, extending from early in his reign to the current destruction of Libya? Clarify.
quote: You stated you would have supported the uprising if it were popular uprising similar to that of Tunisia and Egypt.
You are imagining things. All I did, was to make a distinction between genuine popular uprising and some rebellion manufactured in the "west". Don't you think it's a good idea to first understand what you're being told, so you won't feel compelled to wrongly interpret them...I dunno, like say, calling facts "excuses"?
quote: Well tell you what, the military of both Tunisia and Egypt did not unleash their weaponry might on protesters and demonstrators.
False!...like almost every other thing you say.
quote:
Another fundamental difference is your contention that revolutionariness are thugs, to which I countered - "is Libya a nation of millions of thugs?”
Again, confusing "facts" with something else. I did not bestow this label on your "revolutionaries"; facts do. When you callously murder people because of their skin color, kidnap and execute civilians, that makes you a thug...and that's putting it politely.
quote: That's right the uprising is across the board or maybe you choose to close your eyes to this fact.
More delusion accepted as "fact". Benghazi [or parts of eastern Libya for that matter] is not "across the board" by any stretch of the imagination.
You only need to test your imagination with common sense, like say, how Gaddafi forces, whom are all but essentially out-gunned, thanks in no small part to law-busting NATO bombings and supply of weaponry, continue to outmaneuver the highly incompetent rebel thugs without any support whatsoever from Libyan civilians. With that kind of support [the rebellious thugs are getting], there shouldn't be a stalemate in Libya to this point.
quote: More delusion accepted as "fact". Benghazi [or parts of eastern Libya for that matter] is not "across the board" by any stretch of the imagination.
Wazen, Zintan, Rogeban, Gharyan, Yafran, Qalaa, Jalaa, etc, are all in West Libya. Across the board also includes support from all spectrum of Libyan society for the revolutionaires. From diplomats, to poilice, to soliders, to berbers, to black libyans, to various clans from every corner of Libya.
quote: You only need to test your imagination with common sense, like say, how Gaddafi forces, whom are all but essentially out-gunned, thanks in no small part to law-busting NATO bombings and supply of weaponry, continue to outmaneuver the highly incompetent rebel thugs without any support whatsoever from Libyan civilians. With that kind of support [the rebellious thugs are getting], there shouldn't be a stalemate in Libya to this point.
I don't ascribe to imagination. Fact are Qadaffi regime protection brigades are not out-gunned. They are heavily trained to protect the regime. Numerous tanks, grad rockets, mercenaries, weapons, etc. On the other end are civilians learning to use and a pistol, AK, and RPG and described as "girls", these are ordinary civilians. NATO bombing does what? It bombs away at command and control, weaponery infrastructure, and is effective but also very limited in eliminating ground units. Hopefully with introduction of Apache attack helicopers the targets will include Qadaffi's ground units.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Wazen, Zintan, Rogeban, Gharyan, Yafran, Qalaa, Jalaa, etc, are all in West Libya. Across the board
What a simpleton. During the cold war you had communists from California to New York to Florida, that doesn't mean in America there was broad support for Marxism. Face it, the girls dont have broad support, hence the need for NATO bombs. No brainer. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Exiiled here's another question to stump you with, in response to your earlier claim that..."Dealing with a western European power is endlessly better than dealing with a wretched madman who has committed numerous atrocities..."
By this, it follows that you're in full agreement with the idea that Yemen is "endlessly better" off with Saleh's tyrany, since after all, he is the "west's wretched madman"; am I correct?
Stump me? If your confidence could only translate to fact and not imagination.
Ali Abdullah Saleh has been president of Yemen since 1978. That's a total of 33 years of his tyranny. Which greatly worsened after the 1994 Civil War. His accession to "US puppet" is what the past 10 or so years, or since Al-Qaeda became prominent. He's been a tyrannt way before you even heard of him.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Wazen, Zintan, Rogeban, Gharyan, Yafran, Qalaa, Jalaa, etc, are all in West Libya. Across the board
What a simpleton. During the cold war you had communists from California to New York to Florida, that doesn't mean in America there was broad support for Marxism. Face it, the girls dont have broad support, hence the need for NATO bombs. No brainer.
What support does Qadaffi have? The AU. Libya for Libyans.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
I dont know exactly how much support Qaddafi has inside Libya, I think in a free election he would pull more votes than the transitional national council or government (?) though.
Question: do you believe Obeidy's latest story?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: I dont know exactly how much support Qaddafi has inside Libya, I think in a free election he would pull more votes than the transitional national council or government (?) though.
Question: do you believe Obeidy's latest story?
Oh you don't know. So how can you blindly dismiss the broad support that I mentioned again and gain and gain for the revolutionaries? Numerous populated cities, numerous towns, clans, Berbers, Black Libyans, etc, etc.
And of course politicians, dignitaries, diplomats, clan leaders, artists, etc and many from the very beginning of the uprising including Qadaff's best friend and right hand man Abdel Fatah Yunis. A man Qadaffi praised on TV. He initially resigned on Feb 22, after being disgusted by Qadaffi's tactic of using brute force on civilians and also hiring mercenaries to terrorize and kill Libyan civilians.
Across the board from east to west Libya. From black to fair skin. From artists to ministers. From street cleaners to Army generals.
Yet you type away and dismiss such facts when you can't even prove any support for Qadaffi beyond his regime protection military, supportive clans and paid mercenaries, and of course the AU.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Oh you don't know. So how can you blindly dismiss the broad support that I mentioned again and gain and gain for the revolutionaries?
You are truly one fuking idiot! LOL Qaddafi could have 1% support, that does not translate into "broad support" for the girls. Damn you are simple.
quote:Across the board from east to west Libya. From black to fair skin. From artists to ministers. From street cleaners to Army generals.
From east to west in America there were communists and their sympathizers, therefore there was broad support for Marxism in America pre-1989. You pathetic simpleton.
Notice you didnt answer the question! Bit of a problem now isn't she? LOLOLOL!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Oh you don't know. So how can you blindly dismiss the broad support that I mentioned again and gain and gain for the revolutionaries?
You are truly one fuking idiot! LOL Qaddafi could have 1% support, that does not translate into "broad support" for the girls. Damn you are simple.
quote:Across the board from east to west Libya. From black to fair skin. From artists to ministers. From street cleaners to Army generals.
From east to west in America there were communists and their sympathizers, therefore there was broad support for Marxism in America pre-1989. You pathetic simpleton.
Notice you didnt answer the question! Bit of a problem now isn't she? LOLOLOL!!!
You can run around, lash out, distort facts and arise at a conclusion that you're smarter than everyone else. As for Obeidy, don't know what to make of her situation, will know more as the story develops.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Oh please, STFU already. No distorting and you know it.
quote:As for Obeidy, don't know what to make of her situation, will know more as the story develops.
Hehhehe
So do you believe her initial story that she was gang raped?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Oh please, STFU already. No distorting and you know it.
quote:As for Obeidy, don't know what to make of her situation, will know more as the story develops.
Hehhehe
So do you believe her initial story that she was gang raped?
You are an artiste in distorting facts and words. I think you do it to get my attention. So tell me what qualifies as “broad support” in your opinion?
Again with regards to obeidy, Yes I do believe she was gang-raped. Whatever happened in Qatar or whatever her current situation is I don't know. It does not dismiss what happened to her in Libya. Her claims of gang-rape are in line with numerous allegations that Muammar Qadaffi troops are using rape as a weapon. A despicable man with despicable goons fighting to keep him in power. He has tortured people, killed people (1200 on day alone 1996 abu salim prison [1]) and other atrocities. I think he's capable of anything and everything.
[1]http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2006/06/28/libya-june-1996-killings-abu-salim-prison
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
RE: Rape By Qadaffi's Goons
Rape used 'as a weapon' in Libya
Doctors in city of Ajdabiya say pro-Gaddafi forces have used rape as a "weapon of war".
Psychologist: Proof of hundreds of rape cases during Libya's war
In the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, Libya the whispers and rumors about rape being used as a tool of war by Moammar Gadhafi's troops are coming from all corners of society, from rebel fighters to doctors and citizens, who have come in contact with families displaced by the conflict.
Now a Libyan psychologist has come forward saying she has case study after case study that proves these rumors and whispers are true.
Psychologist Siham Sergewa has a number of distressing images which she says demonstrates the abuse of alleged victims -- one appears to show a cigarette burn on a woman's breast, another a faded bite mark, while several others show the deep purple hue of nasty bruises.
Sergewa first heard reports of rape from the mother of a patient who called her from the Ajdabiya - a town that was caught in a deadly tug of war on Libya's front line war.
"She was crying and very distressed and she said to me that she had been raped. She was saying lots of women are raped and they wanted to call you," Sergewa said.
The woman then claimed lots of women had been raped and wanted to call Sergewa. More phone calls from other women followed and Sergewa decided she had to do something.
She traveled to refugee camps on the Libyan border with Tunisia and Egypt where thousands of people were seeking refuge from the devastating conflict. With the help of volunteers she began a mental health survey in an effort to identify those needing help.
The questionnaire that was distributed sought all sorts of information such as the names and ages of the respondents and asked whether they were getting enough food. One of the last questions asked whether they had been raped and by whom.
Sergewa says that of the 50,000 questionnaires she got back from men and women, 295 women admitted they had been raped, and all blamed Gadhafi's soldiers.
She said one woman told her "they tie up my husband, they rape me in front of my husband and then they kill my husband," while others wrote their feelings or detail of what happened on the back of the questionnaire in Arabic. One read: "Forget what is happening to me. The only way is by killing myself. I am so sad." Sergewa said others recounted stories of gang rape where they would be held for days in abandoned houses where up to 15 men would rape them.
"I'm a psychologist and I've seen lots of things really. But sometimes after I leave some of these families I just sit in my car and cry because it's really so painful," she said. Sergewa shared her research, complete with pictures and recordings, with the International Criminal Court (ICC) at The Hague, where prosecutors are currently investigating accusations that the Gadhafi regime has used rape as a tool of war.
The ICC's chief prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo told CNN last week that the court has information about women who were stopped at checkpoints and, because they were carrying the flag of the rebels, were taken by police and gang raped. He also said there were reports of the use of male sexual enhancement drugs, which he called a "tool of massive rape."
quote:So tell me what qualifies as “broad support” in your opinion?
When you dont need NATO and the west to do revolution for you. And please dont tell me they were "forced" to become violent, as I said before no evidence of killings by the regime or Sub Saharan African mercenaries led to the violence on rebels part. From the beginning they touched police stations and attacked anyone suspected of links to the regime (African immigrants) and army warehouses for weapons.
quote:Again with regards to obeidy, Yes I do believe she was gang-raped.
You readily believe her Libyan story because it serves your anti-Qaddafi agenda, but not the Qatar story because it makes both the council and Qatar look bad. LMAO @ your predicament!
Oh, and "whispers and rumors" from Benghazi is not evidence Obeidy was gang raped. What is your level of education? Seriously.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: You readily believe her Libyan story because it serves your anti-Qaddafi agenda, but not the Qatar story because it makes both the council and Qatar look bad. LMAO @ your predicament!
Oh, and "whispers and rumors" from Benghazi is not evidence Obeidy was gang raped. What is your level of education? Seriously.
How about returning the couresty and answering my questions too? What is board support in your opinion?
And the Obeidy's Qatar story? Please enlighten me. What I've read is she was deported, and left Qatar screaming an hollering. They deported her to Benghazi along with her parents. The Qatari official word is her visa expired. That's what I know. Do you know something that i don't? What did you make out of it?
Her story of gang-rape is definitely consistent with numerous allegations of rape that are coming out of Libya. If your read the entire article and watched the video you would know there is more to it than your cherry picking a word or two. Then again your are the distort the facts - queen.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:And the Obeidy's Qatar story? Please enlighten me. What I've read is she was deported, and left Qatar screaming an hollering. They deported her to Benghazi along with her parents. The Qatari official word is her visa expired.
Nice try. According to her she was beaten by the authorities, money,laptop etc taken away (i.e. human rights abused) because she spoke out against the council. Now your dumbazz is all skeptical about her allegations in one instance but not the other? Hmmm... LOL! Fuking clown.
quote:Her story of gang-rape is definitely consistent with numerous allegations of rape that are coming out of Libya.
Which online community college did you buy your degree? LOL!
quote:What did you make out of it?
I think the bytch probably thought she was getting green card, and lots more, when she signed up to do the council's bidding. And now when she doesnt get shyt, invents another story, anti-Qatar and council one this time. Read the fine print next time babes! LOLOLOL!!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:So tell me what qualifies as “broad support” in your opinion?
When you dont need NATO and the west to do revolution for you. And please dont tell me they were "forced" to become violent, as I said before no evidence of killings by the regime or Sub Saharan African mercenaries led to the violence on rebels part. From the beginning they touched police stations and attacked anyone suspected of links to the regime (African immigrants) and army warehouses for weapons.
quote:Again with regards to obeidy, Yes I do believe she was gang-raped.
You readily believe her Libyan story because it serves your anti-Qaddafi agenda, but not the Qatar story because it makes both the council and Qatar look bad. LMAO @ your predicament!
Oh, and "whispers and rumors" from Benghazi is not evidence Obeidy was gang raped. What is your level of education? Seriously.
quote:When you dont need NATO and the west to do revolution for you. And please dont tell me they were "forced" to become violent, as I said before no evidence of killings by the regime or Sub Saharan African mercenaries led to the violence on rebels part. From the beginning they touched police stations and attacked anyone suspected of links to the regime (African immigrants) and army warehouses for weapons.
First NATO is an instrument. A very crucial one that was deemed necessary because the nutcase Qadaffi did not want to relinquish his power and resorted to massive military attacks on civilians. This is why they needed NATO. The Libyan people asked for NATO's help. Qadaffi is nut, listen to his speeches, he's not stable. He said he would pulverize them and eradicate his people like rats. This man is so spiteful that he would rather Libya burn than be free of him. He said and I quote "I will burn her over her father's house" Her = Libya Father = Him
As for there is no evidence of violence and killings by the regime before the revolutionaries took arms? What purpose and what do you gain from distorting the facts. Qadaffi sent his son personally including his son's brigade to Benghazi with orders to kill them all. Military, not police, not riot police, but a freaking brigades with armored personnel carriers.
Who you think took part in the revolt and armed the protesters. It was Libyan police and Libyan army units who defected after realizing the atrocities being committed by their mental leader. He thought he'd kill 28 of them and they'd disperse, thing is next day more showed up, so he killed a hundred more and more showed up, and he killed 300 and more showed up.
Since when does the Great Magnifiecent Brother Leader Qadaffi Talk. Since when? He knows brute force. 2011 isn't 1996. His excuses are the same as yours and others, first it was Al-Qaeda, funny I don't hear Al-Qaeda anymore. Now his tune is imperilists, and funny that's what I'm reading on ES to. At least be a little honest.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Your flip flopping and hypocrisy is clearly evidence in your selective treatment of Obeidy. Is she a liar now? What? No 'props" for Qatar anymore? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
quote:The Libyan people asked for NATO's help.
LOL @ this fuking fool. 1. "the people" didnt ask for shyt, the anti-Qaddafi opposition asked for NATO. 2. and NATO did not even go in because of this, that's not how it works. They go in based on strategic objectives, in this case getting rid of their nemesis. If it wasn't in their interests they would not go in e.g. Bahrain, Yemen, Syria.
quote:Qadaffi sent his son personally including his son's brigade to Benghazi with orders to kill them all.
1. Who is "them" here. 2. Where is the evidence of this order?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:And the Obeidy's Qatar story? Please enlighten me. What I've read is she was deported, and left Qatar screaming an hollering. They deported her to Benghazi along with her parents. The Qatari official word is her visa expired.
Nice try. According to her she was beaten by the authorities, money,laptop etc taken away (i.e. human rights abused) because she spoke out against the council. Now your dumbazz is all skeptical about her allegations in one instance but not the other? Hmmm... LOL! Fuking clown.
quote:Her story of gang-rape is definitely consistent with numerous allegations of rape that are coming out of Libya.
Which online community college did you buy your degree? LOL!
quote:What did you make out of it?
I think the bytch probably thought she was getting green card, and lots more, when she signed up to do the council's bidding. And now when she doesnt get shyt, invents another story, anti-Qatar and council one this time. Read the fine print next time babes! LOLOLOL!!!!
quote:Nice try. According to her she was beaten by the authorities, money,laptop etc taken away (i.e. human rights abused) because she spoke out against the council. Now your dumbazz is all skeptical about her allegations in one instance but not the other? Hmmm... LOL! Fuking clown.
You're distorting again. Since when did I state I was skeptical of her story? You are too anxious. Let this story develope and play out. I didn't even know that she spoke out against the council. And try to watch your mouth, it's probably been everywhere, but keep it civil here, cool?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Let this story develope and play out. I didn't even know that she spoke out against the council.
LOL @ this dumbazz squirming. Do you believe her story or not?
She *claimed* she was gang raped by Qaddafi forces and you believe her. She *claimed* she was beaten, had her property taken away and thrown in a plane by Qatar forces, but you don't want to jump the gun on this one. You want to "wait and see". Wait and see what? The **Evidence**? LOL! You fuking Bozo.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Your flip flopping and hypocrisy is clearly evidence in your selective treatment of Obeidy. Is she a liar now? What? No 'props" for Qatar anymore? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
quote:The Libyan people asked for NATO's help.
LOL @ this fuking fool. 1. "the people" didnt ask for shyt, the anti-Qaddafi opposition asked for NATO. 2. and NATO did not even go in because of this, that's not how it works. They go in based on strategic objectives, in this case getting rid of their nemesis. If it wasn't in their interests they would not go in e.g. Bahrain, Yemen, Syria.
quote:Qadaffi sent his son personally including his son's brigade to Benghazi with orders to kill them all.
1. Who is "them" here. 2. Where is the evidence of this order?
You are too anxious.
First read my post about Obeidy. No where did I state I was “skeptical” of her story. That is something that you made up. I said let the story play out. Are you than anxious to make things up?
Secondly Qadaffi Opposition consists of Millions. Now that's not Libyans in your opinion?
Benghazi 750,000 Misarat 500,000 Ajadabeyia 110,000 Baida 100,000 Darna 90,000 Tabrouk 75,000 Al-Marj 70,000 Al-Bayar 25,000 Mersa Brega 20,000 Ras Lanuuf 12,000 All of Western highlands (from Wazen to Gharyan) Etc Etc Etc Amazigh people 200,000 Etc Etc
Ministers
General People's Committee of Libya Minister for Immigration and Expatriates Ali Errishi, resigned 20 February 2011[3][4] Justice Minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, resigned 21 February 2011[5]
Interior Minister and Army General Abdul Fatah Younis, defected 22 February 2011 as he announced his support for the protestors[6]
Foreign Affairs Minister Moussa Koussa, resigned and fled to Britain on 30 March 2011[7]
Oil Minister Shukri Ghanem defected mid-May 2011 and arrived in Rome two weeks later[8] Other officials
Nouri Al-Mismari, former head of protocol[9] Ahmad Qaddaf al-Damm, a cousin and aide of Gaddafi has fled to Cairo reporting of "grave violations to human right and human and international laws."[10]
Saif Al Arab Gaddafi, (not to be confused with Saif Al Islam Gadaffi), second youngest son of Muammar al-Gaddafi was reported to have joined protestors on 24 February 2011. The Libyan government claims he was killed by air-strikes on his residence in Tripoli.[11]
Abdul-Rahman al-Abbar, Libyan Prosecutor General resigned on 25 February 2011 and joined the opposition.[12]
Mohamed Amer Bayou, spokesman for the Gaddafi regime, resigned on 25 February over violence against protesters.[13]
Youssef Sawani, a senior aide to Muammer Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, resigned from his post "to express dismay against violence".[14]
Arab League Ambassador Abdulmoneim al-Honi[15] 20 February 2011 The reason for his resignation was the "oppression against protesters".[16] The Libyan delegation to the Arab League in Cairo has renounced Gaddafi and now represents 'the people'[17] 25 February 2011 They condemned his attack on "unarmed citizens".[18]
United Nations Ambassador Abdel Rahman Shalgham 25 February 2011 Did not resign, but denounced Gaddafi in a speech before the Security Council and no longer supports the regime.[19]
Deputy Ambassador Ibrahim Omar Al Dabashi 21 February 2011 Did not resign, but no longer supports government.[20][21][22] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported "in principle" the alternative government being formed in Benghazi.[23]
Delegation to the Human Rights Council Entire mission to the UN in Geneva[18] 25 February 2011
UNESCO Ambassador Abdoulsalam El Qallali 25 February 2011 [24]
Australia Musbah Allafi[citation needed] 20 February 2011
Austria Embassy staff 23 February 2011 The Libyan Embassy in Austria condemned 'excessive violence against peaceful demonstrators', stated that they represent the Libyan people and offered condolences to the families of the victims.[25]
Bangladesh Ambassador AH Elimam 20 February 2011 [15][26]
Belgium Ambassador 21 February 2011 [27]
Canada Counsellor Ihab Al-Mismari 23 February 2011 Son of Gaddafi's former protocol chief Nuri Al-Mismari (see list Other Government Officials above) told Toronto Star he resigned because embassy's chargé d'affaires was "hiding" the gravity of the deadly crackdown back home. “...killing the friends with whom I grew up, they are killing my brothers and sisters.”[28]
China Second Secretary to the ambassador Hussein Sadiq al Musrati 20 February 2011 He also called on the army to intervene and called for all Libya's diplomats to resign[29]
Egypt Consular employees in Alexandria 22 February 2011 Staff at the Libyan consulate in Alexandria removed the Gaddafi-era green flag and joined protestors outside[30] Consul in Cairo Faraj Saeed al-Aribi 12 May 2011 The consul in Cairo said that he had quit his job and joined the rebels[31][32]
European Union and Benelux Ambassador Hadeiba Alhadi and Embassy staff 25 May 2011 [33]
France Ambassador Mohamed Salaheddine Zarem 25 February 2011 [24]
Hungary Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Two members of the staff left the embassy to join the protesters in front of the building.[34] On the 21st March the Libyan embassy in Budapest is seen flying the old tricolor flag which indicates that they have officially changed sides in favor of the National Transitional Council.[35]
India Ambassador Ali al-Essawi 21 February 2011 [36]
Indonesia Ambassador Salaheddin M. El Bishari 21 February 2011 [36][37]
Jordan Ambassador Mohammed Hassan Al Barghathi 24 February 2011 [38]
Malaysia Embassy staff 22 February 2011 Distanced themselves from the government and called the protests a "massacre."[39]
Mali Consul general Musa Al-Koni (later referred as "Musa Kuni") 5 March 2011 Later accused by Malian officials of being an "impostor" who initially recruited Tuareg mercenaries before fleeing to Paris with the money entrusted to him for that purpose.[40]
Malta Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Left the embassy to join the protestors in front of it.[41] The embassy is now flying the flag of the protestors.
Morocco Embassy staff 23 February 2011 Staff destroyed images of Muammar al-Gaddafi and destroyed the Gaddafi-era flag[42]
Nambia Second-highest ranking diplomat Saad Bakar 3 March 2011 The second-highest ranking diplomat in Namibia, Saad Bakar, his wife and four children has left for a Mediterranean country to join the opposition movement.[43]
Netherlands Embassy staff 8 March 2011 Replacement of the Gaddafi-era flag with the Libyan 1951–1969 flag as used by the 2011 protesters; no further comments where made.[44]
Poland Ambassador 22 February 2011 [45][46][47][48]
Portugal Ambassador Ali Ibrahim Emdored 25 February 2011 [49]
Somalia Ambassador Issa Ashur 26 February 2011 Announced he is "joining the revolution", and would continue to carry out his duties "as a representative of the Libyan people"[50]
Sweden Ambassador;
Deputy Ambassador Abdelmagid Buzrigh; non-diplomatic staff 23 February 2011 After days of protests, the embassy announced on 23 February that they no longer support Gaddafi and lifted the former Libyan flag[51][52]
Switzerland Embassy staff 11 March 2011 "The members of the embassy no longer have any link to the regime of Moammar Gaddafi, and call on all countries to follow the example set by the Republic of France in recognising the National Transitional Council which represents the interests of the Libyan people".[53]
United States of America Ambassador Ali Suleiman Aujali; 22 February 2011 Ambassador did not initially resign, even though he distanced himself from the Libyan government.[54] However, he resigned on 22 February saying he does not serve the "dictatorship."[55][56] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported the efforts to form an alternative government in Benghazi.[57] Counsel Saleh Ali Al Majbari, Counsel Jumaa Faris 21 February 2011 [36]
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:No where did I state I was “skeptical” of her story. That is something that you made up. I said let the story play out.
hehehe
Oh please simpleton don't try to wiggle out. Why cant you just believe her like you did before? Why do you want to let the story play out? She made specific and serious allegations against Qatar and the council but unlike the gang rape story you want it to play out. That's being skeptical son.
quote: Secondly Qadaffi Opposition consists of Millions.
*sigh* First off, it may well be the case that those opposed to the regime could number in the millions - in a country of 6 million 400k – but it doesn't translate into 1. support for the girls and 2. NATO actions. What a dumbo.
Also, plucking shyt out of your azz to make an argument again I see? Equating city population numbers with those *opposed to the regime* or worse those who support the council and NATO only reveals the extent of your stupidity. Try to surprise me for once in your posts please.
Please dont forget:
quote:Qadaffi sent his son personally including his son's brigade to Benghazi with orders to kill them all.
1. who is "them" here. 2. wheres the evidence of this extermination order.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:No where did I state I was “skeptical” of her story. That is something that you made up. I said let the story play out.
hehehe
Oh please simpleton don't try to wiggle out. Why cant you just believe her like you did before? Why do you want to let the story play out? She made specific and serious allegations against Qatar and the council but unlike the gang rape story you want it to play out. That's being skeptical son.
quote: Secondly Qadaffi Opposition consists of Millions.
*sigh* First off, it may well be the case that those opposed to the regime could number in the millions - in a country of 6 million 400k – but it doesn't translate into 1. support for the girls and 2. NATO actions. What a dumbo.
Also, plucking shyt out of your azz to make an argument again I see? Equating city population numbers with those *opposed to the regime* or worse those who support the council and NATO only reveals the extent of your stupidity. Try to surprise me for once in your posts please.
Please dont forget:
quote:Qadaffi sent his son personally including his son's brigade to Benghazi with orders to kill them all.
1. who is "them" here. 2. wheres the evidence of this extermination order.
"Wiggle" this "Squirm" that. "Bust nut". More sperm talk. "Fuking clown." "Fuking idiot." Anything to distract from the facts eh Anguishina? Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! As for trying to surprise you, I think that is impossible as your mouth has clearly seen said and done it all.
Tell you what though I have Libyan people as my proof. I have Libyan people who attest to the carnage and atrocites committed by Qadaffi against Libyan people.
There are countless testimonials on TV. You've all seen the filled hospitals in Misarata, Benghazi, Zentan, etc. Here are resignations of Libyans in black and white over the brutal violence against Libyan people.
What do members such as Anguishina bring? They distort facts. They bring in foundless conspiracy theories about how the Millions of Libyans are thugs. And what else? Seriously, what facts do they bring? I will believe Libyans over these internet conspiracy theorists every day of the week. I will believe the testiomony of Libyan men and women over know-it-alls who hold a grudge against Libyans because of what happened initially (backlash against Sub-Saharan Africans, due to Qadaffi hiring Sub -Sahran African mercenaries to kill Libyan people).
That happened because of Qadaffi's policy. And it is unforunate but damn anyone who tries to distract from the ongoing atrocities that Qadaffi has committed against Libyan people, and continues to do so. And damn anyone who labels Libyans as thugs. And again "is Libya a nation of thugs?"
Anguishina et al may have a problem with NATO. Their problem. They may have imperialist conspiracy theories, their problem. They may want to make claims that a=b=c, their problem.
Now here's my dilemma, who shall I believe an ES member who is obessed with semen and other profanities or actual Libyans. Who should I believe the likes of Anguishina, et al who have their own biases and grudges against Libyans or actual Libyans? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what a tough one. ahahaa
Ministers
General People's Committee of Libya Minister for Immigration and Expatriates Ali Errishi, resigned 20 February 2011[3][4] Justice Minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, resigned 21 February 2011[5]
Interior Minister and Army General Abdul Fatah Younis, defected 22 February 2011 as he announced his support for the protestors[6]
Foreign Affairs Minister Moussa Koussa, resigned and fled to Britain on 30 March 2011[7]
Oil Minister Shukri Ghanem defected mid-May 2011 and arrived in Rome two weeks later [8] Other officials
Nouri Al-Mismari, former head of protocol[9] Ahmad Qaddaf al-Damm, a cousin and aide of Gaddafi has fled to Cairo reporting of "grave violations to human right and human and international laws."[10]
Saif Al Arab Gaddafi, (not to be confused with Saif Al Islam Gadaffi), second youngest son of Muammar al-Gaddafi was reported to have joined protestors on 24 February 2011. The Libyan government claims he was killed by air-strikes on his residence in Tripoli.[11]
Abdul-Rahman al-Abbar, Libyan Prosecutor General resigned on 25 February 2011 and joined the opposition.[12]
Mohamed Amer Bayou, spokesman for the Gaddafi regime, resigned on 25 February over violence against protesters.[13]
Youssef Sawani, a senior aide to Muammer Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, resigned from his post "to express dismay against violence".[14]
Arab League Ambassador Abdulmoneim al-Honi[15] 20 February 2011 The reason for his resignation was the "oppression against protesters".[16] The Libyan delegation to the Arab League in Cairo has renounced Gaddafi and now represents 'the people'[17] 25 February 2011 They condemned his attack on "unarmed citizens".[18]
United Nations Ambassador Abdel Rahman Shalgham 25 February 2011 Did not resign, but denounced Gaddafi in a speech before the Security Council and no longer supports the regime.[19]
Deputy Ambassador Ibrahim Omar Al Dabashi 21 February 2011 Did not resign, but no longer supports government.[20][21][22] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported "in principle" the alternative government being formed in Benghazi.[23]
Delegation to the Human Rights Council Entire mission to the UN in Geneva[18] 25 February 2011
UNESCO Ambassador Abdoulsalam El Qallali 25 February 2011 [24]
Australia Musbah Allafi[citation needed] 20 February 2011
Austria Embassy staff 23 February 2011 The Libyan Embassy in Austria condemned 'excessive violence against peaceful demonstrators', stated that they represent the Libyan people and offered condolences to the families of the victims. [25]
Bangladesh Ambassador AH Elimam 20 February 2011 [15][26]
Belgium Ambassador 21 February 2011 [27]
Canada Counsellor Ihab Al-Mismari 23 February 2011 Son of Gaddafi's former protocol chief Nuri Al-Mismari (see list Other Government Officials above) told Toronto Star he resigned because embassy's chargé d'affaires was "hiding" the gravity of the deadly crackdown back home. “...killing the friends with whom I grew up, they are killing my brothers and sisters.”[28]
China Second Secretary to the ambassador Hussein Sadiq al Musrati 20 February 2011 He also called on the army to intervene and called for all Libya's diplomats to resign [29]
Egypt Consular employees in Alexandria 22 February 2011 Staff at the Libyan consulate in Alexandria removed the Gaddafi-era green flag and joined protestors outside[30]
Consul in Cairo Faraj Saeed al-Aribi 12 May 2011 The consul in Cairo said that he had quit his job and joined the rebels[31][32]
European Union and Benelux Ambassador Hadeiba Alhadi and Embassy staff 25 May 2011 [33]
France Ambassador Mohamed Salaheddine Zarem 25 February 2011 [24]
Hungary Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Two members of the staff left the embassy to join the protesters in front of the building.[34] On the 21st March the Libyan embassy in Budapest is seen flying the old tricolor flag which indicates that they have officially changed sides in favor of the National Transitional Council.[35]
India Ambassador Ali al-Essawi 21 February 2011 [36]
Indonesia Ambassador Salaheddin M. El Bishari 21 February 2011 [36][37]
Jordan Ambassador Mohammed Hassan Al Barghathi 24 February 2011 [38]
Malaysia Embassy staff 22 February 2011 Distanced themselves from the government and called the protests a "massacre."[39]
Mali Consul general Musa Al-Koni (later referred as "Musa Kuni") 5 March 2011 Later accused by Malian officials of being an "impostor" who initially recruited Tuareg mercenaries before fleeing to Paris with the money entrusted to him for that purpose.[40]
Malta Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Left the embassy to join the protestors in front of it.[41] The embassy is now flying the flag of the protestors.
Morocco Embassy staff 23 February 2011 Staff destroyed images of Muammar al-Gaddafi and destroyed the Gaddafi-era flag[42]
Nambia Second-highest ranking diplomat Saad Bakar 3 March 2011 The second-highest ranking diplomat in Namibia, Saad Bakar, his wife and four children has left for a Mediterranean country to join the opposition movement.[43]
Netherlands Embassy staff 8 March 2011 Replacement of the Gaddafi-era flag with the Libyan 1951–1969 flag as used by the 2011 protesters; no further comments where made.[44]
Poland Ambassador 22 February 2011 [45][46][47][48]
Portugal Ambassador Ali Ibrahim Emdored 25 February 2011 [49]
Somalia Ambassador Issa Ashur 26 February 2011 Announced he is "joining the revolution", and would continue to carry out his duties "as a representative of the Libyan people"[50]
Sweden Ambassador;
Deputy Ambassador Abdelmagid Buzrigh; non-diplomatic staff 23 February 2011 After days of protests, the embassy announced on 23 February that they no longer support Gaddafi and lifted the former Libyan flag [51][52]
Switzerland Embassy staff 11 March 2011 "The members of the embassy no longer have any link to the regime of Moammar Gaddafi, and call on all countries to follow the example set by the Republic of France in recognising the National Transitional Council which represents the interests of the Libyan people".[53]
United States of America Ambassador Ali Suleiman Aujali; 22 February 2011 Ambassador did not initially resign, even though he distanced himself from the Libyan government.[54] However, he resigned on 22 February saying he does not serve the "dictatorship."[55][56] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported the efforts to form an alternative government in Benghazi.[57]
Counsel Saleh Ali Al Majbari,
Counsel Jumaa Faris 21 February 2011 [36]
RE: extermination order, this was the confession of an apprehended Qadaffi solider in Benghazi. He testified that Qadaffii's son (Saad) gave the command to kill the protesters. It is on video, also on several news sources.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:RE: extermination order, this was the confession of an apprehended Qadaffi solider in Benghazi.
WAHAHALOL! Yep, this just sums up your entire "body of evidence". I bet if he is captured by government forces and "confesses" he was sent by the council to kill civilian Qaddafi supporters you would be just as muted as you are on Obeidy now. You are a fuking joke. LOLOLOLOL!!!
quote:Now here's my dilemma
..yeh your dilemma is: which one of Obeidy's atrocity stories do you choose to believe. LOL!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:RE: extermination order, this was the confession of an apprehended Qadaffi solider in Benghazi.
WAHAHALOL! Yep, this just sums up your entire "body of evidence". I bet if he is captured by government forces and "confesses" he was sent by the council to kill civilian Qaddafi supporters you would be just as muted as you are on Obeidy now. You are a fuking joke. LOLOLOLOL!!!
The dead unarmed protestors in Benghazi just fell from the sky, right? No one gave the order? They just fell from the sky. Is that part of your conspiracy theory?
What about the rest of the post nothing to quote there. Here let me repost it
"Wiggle" this "Squirm" that. "Bust nut". More sperm talk. "Fuking clown." "Fuking idiot." Anything to distract from the facts eh Anguishina? Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! As for trying to surprise you, I think that is impossible as your mouth has clearly seen said and done it all.
Tell you what though I have Libyan people as my proof. I have Libyan people who attest to the carnage and atrocites committed by Qadaffi against Libyan people.
There are countless testimonials on TV. You've all seen the filled hospitals in Misarata, Benghazi, Zentan, etc. Here are resignations of Libyans in black and white over the brutal violence against Libyan people.
What do members such as Anguishina bring? They distort facts. They bring in foundless conspiracy theories about how the Millions of Libyans are thugs. And what else? Seriously, what facts do they bring? I will believe Libyans over these internet conspiracy theorists every day of the week. I will believe the testiomony of Libyan men and women over know-it-alls who hold a grudge against Libyans because of what happened initially (backlash against Sub-Saharan Africans, due to Qadaffi hiring Sub -Sahran African mercenaries to kill Libyan people).
That happened because of Qadaffi's policy. And it is unforunate but damn anyone who tries to distract from the ongoing atrocities that Qadaffi has committed against Libyan people, and continues to do so. And damn anyone who labels Libyans as thugs. And again "is Libya a nation of thugs?"
Anguishina et al may have a problem with NATO. Their problem. They may have imperialist conspiracy theories, their problem. They may want to make claims that a=b=c, their problem.
Now here's my dilemma, who shall I believe an ES member who is obessed with semen and other profanities or actual Libyans. Who should I believe the likes of Anguishina, et al who have their own biases and grudges against Libyans or actual Libyans? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what a tough one. ahahaa
Ministers
General People's Committee of Libya Minister for Immigration and Expatriates Ali Errishi, resigned 20 February 2011[3][4] Justice Minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, resigned 21 February 2011[5]
Interior Minister and Army General Abdul Fatah Younis, defected 22 February 2011 as he announced his support for the protestors[6]
Foreign Affairs Minister Moussa Koussa, resigned and fled to Britain on 30 March 2011[7]
Oil Minister Shukri Ghanem defected mid-May 2011 and arrived in Rome two weeks later [8] Other officials
Nouri Al-Mismari, former head of protocol[9] Ahmad Qaddaf al-Damm, a cousin and aide of Gaddafi has fled to Cairo reporting of "grave violations to human right and human and international laws."[10]
Saif Al Arab Gaddafi, (not to be confused with Saif Al Islam Gadaffi), second youngest son of Muammar al-Gaddafi was reported to have joined protestors on 24 February 2011. The Libyan government claims he was killed by air-strikes on his residence in Tripoli.[11]
Abdul-Rahman al-Abbar, Libyan Prosecutor General resigned on 25 February 2011 and joined the opposition.[12]
Mohamed Amer Bayou, spokesman for the Gaddafi regime, resigned on 25 February over violence against protesters.[13]
Youssef Sawani, a senior aide to Muammer Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, resigned from his post "to express dismay against violence".[14]
Arab League Ambassador Abdulmoneim al-Honi[15] 20 February 2011 The reason for his resignation was the "oppression against protesters".[16] The Libyan delegation to the Arab League in Cairo has renounced Gaddafi and now represents 'the people'[17] 25 February 2011 They condemned his attack on "unarmed citizens".[18]
United Nations Ambassador Abdel Rahman Shalgham 25 February 2011 Did not resign, but denounced Gaddafi in a speech before the Security Council and no longer supports the regime.[19]
Deputy Ambassador Ibrahim Omar Al Dabashi 21 February 2011 Did not resign, but no longer supports government.[20][21][22] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported "in principle" the alternative government being formed in Benghazi.[23]
Delegation to the Human Rights Council Entire mission to the UN in Geneva[18] 25 February 2011
UNESCO Ambassador Abdoulsalam El Qallali 25 February 2011 [24]
Australia Musbah Allafi[citation needed] 20 February 2011
Austria Embassy staff 23 February 2011 The Libyan Embassy in Austria condemned 'excessive violence against peaceful demonstrators', stated that they represent the Libyan people and offered condolences to the families of the victims. [25]
Bangladesh Ambassador AH Elimam 20 February 2011 [15][26]
Belgium Ambassador 21 February 2011 [27]
Canada Counsellor Ihab Al-Mismari 23 February 2011 Son of Gaddafi's former protocol chief Nuri Al-Mismari (see list Other Government Officials above) told Toronto Star he resigned because embassy's chargé d'affaires was "hiding" the gravity of the deadly crackdown back home. “...killing the friends with whom I grew up, they are killing my brothers and sisters.”[28]
China Second Secretary to the ambassador Hussein Sadiq al Musrati 20 February 2011 He also called on the army to intervene and called for all Libya's diplomats to resign [29]
Egypt Consular employees in Alexandria 22 February 2011 Staff at the Libyan consulate in Alexandria removed the Gaddafi-era green flag and joined protestors outside[30]
Consul in Cairo Faraj Saeed al-Aribi 12 May 2011 The consul in Cairo said that he had quit his job and joined the rebels[31][32]
European Union and Benelux Ambassador Hadeiba Alhadi and Embassy staff 25 May 2011 [33]
France Ambassador Mohamed Salaheddine Zarem 25 February 2011 [24]
Hungary Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Two members of the staff left the embassy to join the protesters in front of the building.[34] On the 21st March the Libyan embassy in Budapest is seen flying the old tricolor flag which indicates that they have officially changed sides in favor of the National Transitional Council.[35]
India Ambassador Ali al-Essawi 21 February 2011 [36]
Indonesia Ambassador Salaheddin M. El Bishari 21 February 2011 [36][37]
Jordan Ambassador Mohammed Hassan Al Barghathi 24 February 2011 [38]
Malaysia Embassy staff 22 February 2011 Distanced themselves from the government and called the protests a "massacre."[39]
Mali Consul general Musa Al-Koni (later referred as "Musa Kuni") 5 March 2011 Later accused by Malian officials of being an "impostor" who initially recruited Tuareg mercenaries before fleeing to Paris with the money entrusted to him for that purpose.[40]
Malta Embassy staff (undefined) 22 February 2011 Left the embassy to join the protestors in front of it.[41] The embassy is now flying the flag of the protestors.
Morocco Embassy staff 23 February 2011 Staff destroyed images of Muammar al-Gaddafi and destroyed the Gaddafi-era flag[42]
Nambia Second-highest ranking diplomat Saad Bakar 3 March 2011 The second-highest ranking diplomat in Namibia, Saad Bakar, his wife and four children has left for a Mediterranean country to join the opposition movement.[43]
Netherlands Embassy staff 8 March 2011 Replacement of the Gaddafi-era flag with the Libyan 1951–1969 flag as used by the 2011 protesters; no further comments where made.[44]
Poland Ambassador 22 February 2011 [45][46][47][48]
Portugal Ambassador Ali Ibrahim Emdored 25 February 2011 [49]
Somalia Ambassador Issa Ashur 26 February 2011 Announced he is "joining the revolution", and would continue to carry out his duties "as a representative of the Libyan people"[50]
Sweden Ambassador;
Deputy Ambassador Abdelmagid Buzrigh; non-diplomatic staff 23 February 2011 After days of protests, the embassy announced on 23 February that they no longer support Gaddafi and lifted the former Libyan flag [51][52]
Switzerland Embassy staff 11 March 2011 "The members of the embassy no longer have any link to the regime of Moammar Gaddafi, and call on all countries to follow the example set by the Republic of France in recognising the National Transitional Council which represents the interests of the Libyan people".[53]
United States of America Ambassador Ali Suleiman Aujali; 22 February 2011 Ambassador did not initially resign, even though he distanced himself from the Libyan government.[54] However, he resigned on 22 February saying he does not serve the "dictatorship."[55][56] On 26 February 2011, he stated that he supported the efforts to form an alternative government in Benghazi.[57]
Counsel Saleh Ali Al Majbari,
Counsel Jumaa Faris 21 February 2011 [36]
RE: extermination order, this was the confession of an apprehended Qadaffi solider in Benghazi. He testified that Qadaffii's son (Saad) gave the command to kill the protesters. It is on video, also on several news sources.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: spam spam spam The dead unarmed protestors in Benghazi just fell from the sky, right? No one gave the order? spam spam spam
No independent investigation confirms that 1. orders were given by the regime to "kill all the unarmed protesters" 2. shows that the dead "protesters" were result of government forces. 3. the pictures of dead Africans immigrants were in fact "mercenaries" hired by the regime. All your "evidence" are from Benghazi anti-Qaddafi opposition and their allies. Your shyt only works on CNN et al.
Give it up dude, youre done.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: spam spam spam The dead unarmed protestors in Benghazi just fell from the sky, right? No one gave the order? spam spam spam
No independent investigation confirms that 1. orders were given by the regime to "kill all the unarmed protesters" 2. shows that the dead "protesters" were result of government forces. 3. the pictures of dead Africans immigrants were in fact "mercenaries" hired by the regime. All your "evidence" are from Benghazi anti-Qaddafi opposition and their allies. Your shyt only works on CNN et al.
Give it up dude, youre done.
Testimony from Libyan civilians, and testimony from numerous Libyan diplomats, Libyan politicians, Libyan dignitaries, etc some of which I posted in my previous post. So who are you trying to fool. Stop with distorting facts. And you say all my evidence is from Benghazi? Isn't Benghazi part of Libya, the second largest city with 750,000 people? Are the black Libyan soliders who also defect are only from Benghazi and what about Abdul Rahman Shalagam is he too from Benghazi. And what about Abdel Fatah Yunis is he also from Benghazi. And what about the entire city of Misarata in Western Libya is that city too inside Benghazi? And what about Zintan is that city also inside Benghazi, a lot of testimony coming out of there Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Anguishina
Isn't the testimony of Libyan doctors and nurses from across Libya worth anything. Or are they like everyone else in your mind, part of a NATO conspiracy.
To you sure it doesn't amount to anything - because you are twisted, and you truly believe that you are right over the testiomny of Libyans. But the world doesn't consist of only people like you. There are honest people who are able to witness what is happening. And above all it has been a slow and gradual pace but Libya will be free. Spew in your own anguish as much as you like. It's all you have aside from your foul tongue.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Testimony from Libyan civilians, and testimony from numerous Libyan diplomats, Libyan politicians, Libyan dignitaries, etc
Nice try, you said the extermination order was based on the "confession" of a soldier captured in Benghazi. Changing your story already Obeidy? LOL
And diplomats and Ambassadors joining the opposition and resigning in protest claiming violence on part of the regime, though not NATO and the girls as the reason, does not in any way constitute an independent investigation. Sorry.
Again, no independent investigation to get to the truth as to what happened to initial dead in Benghazi, how much and why they were killed, if in fact an extermination order was given as you claim. Until then you are simply asking me to choose whose story to believe: regime or those opposed to it. Just as you choose to believe one of Obeidy's stories when it suits you. Failed. Try again please.
quote:Isn't the testimony of Libyan doctors and nurses from across Libya worth anything.
And all this testimony from some Libyans proves what? That an evil regime is killing nonviolent peaceful pro-democracy protesters? Theres a civil war going on Obeidy. Too late for that "peaceful pro-democracy movement" propaganda line. Its been long outdated with the girl's council (elected by whom?) called for NATO intervention (very democratic move in a Muslim country) and them being shown in violent combat, and reports of arms flowing in with military training and advisers along with victims of NATO bombs, hence the attempt to indict Sarkozy in France. Oh, I forgot, according to you theres no civil war in Libya. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
And who knows how much was paid or promised to these so-called "defectors". The NATO imperialists comprised of white European nations--all ganging up to defeat an underpopulated African nation.
They tried bombing big time. It didn't work. Then they are trying the usual bribery with dirty money. Now they are trying helicopter gunships. Time for Libya to get some of those heat-seeking missiles to roast those cowardly pinkies.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Libyan rebels accused of arbitrary arrests, torture
OMG!!! Say it aint so!!! Just like Obeidy, the Benghazi girls, I mean "rebels", are becoming quite an embarrassment! Now Exile is forced once again to choose which "testimonies" to believe!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Wheres Exiile? He's normally first with breaking news like in Yemen thread. Did you mean what you said exile??? Will you believe "actual Libyans"? HAHAHHAHAHA
quote:"I will believe Libyans over these internet conspiracy theorists"
"I will believe the testiomony of Libyan men and women over know-it-alls who hold a grudge against Libyans"
"Who should I believe the likes of Anguishina, et al who have their own biases and grudges against Libyans or actual Libyans?"
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Wazen, Zintan, Rogeban, Gharyan, Yafran, Qalaa, Jalaa, etc, are all in West Libya. Across the board also includes support from all spectrum of Libyan society for the revolutionaires. From diplomats, to poilice, to soliders, to berbers, to black libyans, to various clans from every corner of Libya.
When you say "across the board", is it possible you are yet again using terms you are not familiar with? If support for the thugs is "across the board", then they shouldn't have to resort to murdering "blacks" - both locals & immigrants [the very people whom you claim have the back of the thugs], kidnapping & detaining civilians, and least of all, require NATO support. Genuine movements have always sought to stick it out, not matter the blood cost. Take a cue from Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Bahrain, and Yemen, as examples. Folks in these countries did not require NATO to hold their hands, nor did they have to resort to murdering and scapegoating sections of their population. If the thugs had "across the board" support, as you imagine, then we shouldn't even be talking about a stalemate in Libya at this point. Face it, dreamer: the damning evidence against you is simply too overwhelming for you to playfully hop over.
quote: I don't ascribe to imagination. Fact are Qadaffi regime protection brigades are not out-gunned.
NATO aerial war machine + NATO special forces/advisors + weaponry supplies to the thugs does NOT out-gun the Libyan military that no longer has a functioning tank or armored vehicle machinery + no air power? Are you serious when you swear that your imagination is not running amok?
quote: NATO bombing does what?
Want to find out? Go to Libya, and expose yourself to one, and then report back to us in spirit (pun intended). LOL
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Stump me? If your confidence could only translate to fact and not imagination.
If I have too much confidence, who could blame me? I've already challenged you to produce these so-called imaginations you claim I'm having, only to be greeted with no results; that's a confidence booster. There are fantasies floating around here alright, but they come from you.
quote: Ali Abdullah Saleh has been president of Yemen since 1978. That's a total of 33 years of his tyranny. Which greatly worsened after the 1994 Civil War. His accession to "US puppet" is what the past 10 or so years, or since Al-Qaeda became prominent. He's been a tyrannt way before you even heard of him.
I'd just informed you so about the guy's reputation as a tyrant in the very post you're replying. Reading is obviously not your strong point. It's also comical how you talk to internet strangers like you personally know them. Anyhow, this is precisely the point; you should be dancing with overjoy--cheerleading Saleh, not moaning and throwing tantrums around at him, since after all, you are the same one who just moments ago, told us that dealing with European tyranny is "endlessly better".
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Exiile where you man?!
The illegal war in Libya
Former U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, originally supportive of the mission in Libya, explained the obvious about NATO in an interview this week: "they've crossed a line and are now part of the *civil war* and fighting on one side of the civil war."
Somewhere buried in the article is this "CNN has been unable to verify the video's authenticity, when it was shot, or by whom". Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Better late than never...
House set to rebuke Obama on Libya mission
"Support for the war has also been further shaken by evidence of several noncombatant deaths caused by recent NATO airstrikes."
^ wow, that CNN is forced to admit this much means things must be really bad. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
...but they didn't vote to cut off funding for the Libyan operations. As long as the funding continues, Obama can put his thumb to the congress' nose and keep U.S. Libyan operations going.
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
Watch what Obama's new found friends are doing to their own people in Libya.
WARNING EXTREME VIOLENCE: WARNING EXTREME VIOLENCE: Please, please don't watch if you can't stand extreme violence.
The so-called rebels took over a village in some hills and the white NATO propaganda springs into action. All of Tripoli is armed so what makes the imperialists believe that a bunch of throat-slitter racists led by a CIA plant could do any real harm. Just look at their head, Jalil and you see the face of a pervert. No kidding.
It's pathetic though that Algeria a nation that suffered greatly under the French is just not doing anything physical. Libya is fighting against the whole of NATO yet all the AU does is flit from meeting to meeting. Equally pathetic.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Libyan rebels looted and beat civilians, rights group says
quote:Originally posted by lamin: The so-called rebels took over a village in some hills and the white NATO propaganda springs into action. All of Tripoli is armed so what makes the imperialists believe that a bunch of throat-slitter racists led by a CIA plant could do any real harm. Just look at their head, Jalil and you see the face of a pervert. No kidding.
It's pathetic though that Algeria a nation that suffered greatly under the French is just not doing anything physical. Libya is fighting against the whole of NATO yet all the AU does is flit from meeting to meeting. Equally pathetic.
This really is pathetic and the answer to my question of why Africans even bother to migrate to Europe or the US when they have a whole continent packed with the most abundant and priceless precious commodities in the whole. I can only sadly surmise that the slave trade and petty internal conflict have almost completely depleted Africa of the majority of it's talented and resourceful peoples.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: In a week from now, the imbeciles will be on full showcase...
Happily, we will all be around.
My predictions:
Khadafi survives in a chaotic Libya;
Boutefilka survives in Algerie
King Hussein survives in Morocco
Ali Saleh will still be there in Yemen but weaker
Nothing will change in Bharain or Saudi besides the recently paid bribes
Egypt starves, Tunisia starves, .... modern day slavery
Watch and see who is gonna be smiling in a weeks time.
Follow the money!
Bump it up! Prophesy come to pass...
The global military-industrial complex is similing... follow the money!
The rats have turned on themselves, total confusion reigns...
BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Libyan rebels say the gunmen who shot dead their military chief were fighters allied in their struggle to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi, raising questions over divisions and lawlessness within rebel ranks.
The assassination of Abdel Fattah Younes, apparently by his own side, has hurt the opposition just as it was winning broader international recognition and launching an offensive against Gaddafi's forces in the west of the country.
After 24 hours of confusion, rebel minister Ali Tarhouni said Younes had been killed by fighters who went to fetch him from the front and that his bullet-riddled and partially burned body was found at ranch near the rebel capital of Benghazi.....
The Nato proxy thugs claimed to have pacified Sirte and captured Gaddafi, i.e. wounded and in NTC custody, and then, another report came saying that he died.
The initially jubilant (of the news) BBC reporters were scratching their heads on this one, trying to figure out which of this is true, if any of it.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
That one is fake but he is dead. There are a few videos. CNN and Aljazeera.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Makes one wonder why Washington is still waiting for the confirmation of Gaddafi's death.
Wait; I just got word that Obama is making a statement on the matter later.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Update: Heard the Obama speech. No specific mention of Gaddafi's death. Rather odd, considering his previous speeches on successful kills on the U.S. hit list.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
That image appears to be a ''cleaned up'' version according to what I saw on the news over and over earlier this afternoon. It showed Ghaddafi alive and being jostled about; then a picture with what appears to be a wound of some kind above his left eyebrow; he was lying there so its hard to tell if he was dead at that point or just unconscious. Yet later views, maybe 10 minutes or so, shows him in an ambulance? seemingly being taken care of. The pictures seemed to be shown haphazardly so it's difficult to tell what happened in what sequence. Still later the news shows a Libyan holding up a ''golden gun'' (which actually looks golden} that looks like a .45 calibre military pistol from earlier wars. Who the guy is holding up the gun is unclear. The newscaster made reference to the weapon but I didn't hear all of it.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Theres no way to know if that person was dead or alive in that vid. he could have been dead and stiff but just being jostled about. You couldn't see any movement of head or blinking of eyes.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
I agree on the linked picture not knowing whether he was dead ot alive. My mistake now that I read it again should have read: ''That image appears to be a ''cleaned up'' version according to what I saw on the news over and over earlier this afternoon. [The news channels] showed Ghaddafi alive and being jostled about; then a picture with what appears to be a wound of some kind above his left eyebrow''
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
"In this exclusive footage obtained on the scene by Tracey Shelton of GlobalPost, Col. Muammar Gaddafi is caught by fighters for the new Libyan government.
The shock discovery of the former dictator, found cowering in a water drain on Thursday in his hometown of Sirte, was captured by Ali Algadi, a rebel fighter, with an iPhone just seconds after Gaddafi was dragged from the drain in which he was hiding. This is the earliest footage to emerge so far.
Although clearly injured, Gaddafi is still alive during the capture. His captors can be heard shouting, "Dont' kill him! Don't kill him! We need him alive!" throughout the footage..."
Just as the Saddam "spider hole" story, the public will never know the real story as to where Gaddafi was captured.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: In a week from now, the imbeciles will be on full showcase...
Happily, we will all be around.
My predictions:
Khadafi survives in a chaotic Libya;
Boutefilka survives in Algerie
King Hussein survives in Morocco
Ali Saleh will still be there in Yemen but weaker
Nothing will change in Bharain or Saudi besides the recently paid bribes
Egypt starves, Tunisia starves, .... modern day slavery
Watch and see who is gonna be smiling in a weeks time.
Follow the money!
Bump it up! Prophesy come to pass...
The global military-industrial complex is similing... follow the money!
Duly bumped Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
What do you mean by this Anguishofbeing?
''Just as the Saddam "spider hole" story, the public will never know the real story as to where Gaddafi was captured.''
Are you saying Ghaddafi may have been captured in Antarctica? How about the Ivory Coast?...Madagascar?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
No, that we will never know if the story of him being captured "cowering in a water drain" is true or not.
"The United States will withdraw almost all its troops from Iraq by the end of the year,"
LOL what is the west up to now? Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
I don't understand your point. What if he was captured in his office surrounded by his aides instead of a drain pipe?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
What is the difference between the western champions of human rights and rule of law and the Islamists, whom, ironically, they regularly stereotype as irrational and violent.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: I don't understand your point. What if he was captured in his office surrounded by his aides instead of a drain pipe?
"Cowering" in a "spider hole" or a "water drain" plays into western propaganda of a "cowardly dictator".
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
''What is the difference between the western champions of human rights and rule of law and the Islamists, whom, ironically, they regularly stereotype as irrational and violent''.
Nothing.
"Cowering" in a "spider hole" or a "water drain" plays into western propaganda of a "cowardly dictator".
I know you don't believe that western proganda, but you are suggesting some are gullible enough to believe it?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
With a bullet hole in the guy's head in one scene, and then the guy being paraded *alive* (but obviously in great pain), isn't it obvious that this was an execution?
People in the media are talking of an "investigation" into whether he was executed upon being captured alive.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: "Cowering" in a "spider hole" or a "water drain" plays into western propaganda of a "cowardly dictator".
Indeed, there is an uncanny similarity to the two narratives. The very first report that came out, said that Gaddafi was in custody alive, but wounded in the leg(s). Then a more elaborate one came to surface, from the NTC, i.e. if memory serves me correctly, which is to the order of Gaddafi being found in some building, the guy tried to escape, and so, he was shot.
Then later came, the report that he was cowering in the water drain "like a rat".
This later story was then tweaked by Washington and Sarkozy's people, in an apparent effort to take credit, adding that he must have been in a convoy that the U.S drone struck, to be supplemented by the French fighter jet bombings....i.e. before he took cover for the drain pipe.
There were conflicting reports of how the guy was found, and eventually died, before settling on the above-mentioned.
I'm suspicious about the "cowering in the drain pipe" story, but in any event, the guy could have left Libya altogether and exiled in a friendly territory in say, Algeria or Chad. However, he chose to stay and fight with his supporters; that can hardly be a cowardly act.
Saddam didn't have that opportunity, i.e. to escape to friendly countries nearby, because he was essentially surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides. Were it otherwise, who knows, he might have gone for exile outside Iraq, instead of staying put. We will never know.
And yes, the video showcasing Gaddafi was kind of fuzzy, since the camera was very shifty.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: In a week from now, the imbeciles will be on full showcase...
Happily, we will all be around.
My predictions:
Khadafi survives in a chaotic Libya;
Boutefilka survives in Algerie
King Hussein survives in Morocco
Ali Saleh will still be there in Yemen but weaker
Nothing will change in Bharain or Saudi besides the recently paid bribes
Egypt starves, Tunisia starves, .... modern day slavery
Watch and see who is gonna be smiling in a weeks time.
Follow the money!
Bump it up! Prophesy come to pass...
The global military-industrial complex is similing... follow the money!
Duly bumped
Monkey gyal
Everything in the prophesy above came to pass. The western military industralists are smiling. Boutefilka is till there, Ali Saleh is still there, King Hussein is still there, Assad Bashar is still there, Tunisia and Egypt are starving...
And Libyan is completely chaotic. And the fight goes on. Even the NTC rats are about to fight themselves.
True Ghadaffi maybe supposedly dead but his son Saif Al-Islam who was supposed to take over from him is still alive.
Did you notice the smile on Hillary Clinton's face?
Did you notice the smile on David Cameron's face?
And Sarkozy the dwarf?
That is the face of the military industrial complex.
Now present your analysis of the situation seven months ago... Let's see how you read the situation.
I am waiting...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Interesting video - more so the comments. It doesn't look like everyone was against Gadhafi like the media and most of all the foreign governments who took part in the fighting against Gadhafi and his troops tried to make us believe.
What's up with Saif? There are conflicting reports out about his location and health status.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Oct 24, 1:06 PM EDT
Africans remember Gadhafi as martyr, benefactor
By MARTIN VOGL and KRISTA LARSON Associated Press
BAMAKO, Mali (AP) -- Moammar Gadhafi's regime poured tens of billions of dollars into some of Africa's poorest countries. Even when he came to visit, the eccentric leader won admiration for handing out money to beggars on the streets.
"Other heads of state just drive past here in their limousines. Gadhafi stopped, pushed away his bodyguards and shook our hands," said Cherno Diallo, standing Monday beside hundreds of caged birds he sells near a Libyan-funded hotel. "Gadhafi's death has touched every Malian, every single one of us. We're all upset."
That was the topic we were discussing, as I recall. Have to say, given all the talk in this thread about the NTC being "roaches" and "rats" the reports that they found Mad Dog in a sewer pipe was somewhat ironic, but I digress.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Did you notice the smile on Hillary Clinton's face?
I hear she has a snuke in her snizz??
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Did you notice the smile on David Cameron's face?
Yup. I can imagine he would be somewhat relieved at not having to spend any more money.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: And Sarkozy the dwarf?
No, I didn't see him.
My analysis is: I still think it was the right thing to do, but I don't deny there were some ulterior motives. America and the UK were miffed about the whole El Megrahi scam. And France initially relied on Libya for something nuts like 20% of their oil. The tides seem to be changing - after decades (or centuries) of supporting (or being) oppressive regimes, America and the UK has some bridges to build in the ME. These are oil producing countries. It's pretty important we be seen to be getting on with the next generation. But ultimately, I think when a brutal dictator is slaughtering his people with anti aircraft weapons, someone should step up to the plate.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
Boutefilka survives in Algerie
King Hussein survives in Morocco
Ali Saleh will still be there in Yemen but weaker
Nothing will change in Bharain or Saudi besides the recently paid bribes
Yeah, all that's just blowing in the wind to me. Who knows. The Arab Spring - well, we're getting to Winter now. I think we can safely say we're done for this season. I'd hazard a guess that no other dictatorships are going to fall before 2012. And when you get to Saudi, Iran and what not, what you have there, if there were Western interference, is the makings of WWIII. I said that right at the start and I stand by that.
OK, I'll stick my neck out and say I'm pretty sure the UK and US won't be getting involved militarily again - certainly not until the economic downturn is stabilised. But, you know, don't underestimate the power of the people in these countries themselves. Tunisia and Egypt overthrew their governments without foreign intervention. In fact, the touch light for the whole of the Arab Spring, really, if you think about it, was one Tunisian market stall holder tired of being screwed by the authorities - a voice for the people who just couldn't take it anymore. It's a pretty remarkable story.
As for what'll come of it for Libya, Egypt and Tunisia, well, that's up to them. But at least now they have the choice. That's the point.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Interesting video - more so the comments. It doesn't look like everyone was against Gadhafi like the media and most of all the foreign governments who took part in the fighting against Gadhafi and his troops tried to make us believe.
What's up with Saif? There are conflicting reports out about his location and health status.
Already signs that NATO's imperialist bunch (U.S., UK and France) are second guessing the newly installed NTC.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ Of course, it obvious..
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
.. [QUOTE]Originally posted by IronLion: [qb] Did you notice the smile on Hillary Clinton's face?
I hear she has a snuke in her snizz??
...
Do you care to elaborate? What does that sentence mean?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Saif-al Islam al Gaddafi:
In related news: I can see the Monkey is talking sh*t as usual.
quote:National Transitional Council (NTC) Chairman Mustafa Abdul Jalil said the extension was needed to help Libyans trying to control surplus weapons and to deal with Gaddafi loyalists.
Well, since the NTC are the "government" now couldn't they be prosecuted for "killing their people"?????
Gaddafi regime (government) versus NTC (rebels) = crime
now
NTC (government) versus Gaddafi loyalists (rebels) = legitimate
It just goes to show how fuked up international "law" and politics is.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Do you care to elaborate? What does that sentence mean?
It was a quote from a film called Team America. It was an attempt at humour.
Anguish, I "can see" a lot of things, doesn't mean it's necessarily so. Perspective is learned, after all. You know, a wise man, even on his death bed, would be the first to admit that he doesn't know it all. That's not humility. That's fact. I kind of think open discussion without resorting to petty insults and slights is more fruitful, but heyho, each to their own.
Sayonara guys.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
'Gaddafi death an omen of tribal war & mob rule in Libya'
I left many messages about Gaddafi. I am happy he is gone.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Amnesty finds widespread use of torture by Libyan militias
Hundreds of armed militias operating independently of central authorities, according to report by human rights group
A damning report by Amnesty International says that a year after the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's militias are "largely out of control", with the use of torture ubiquitous and the country's new rulers unable – or unwilling – to prevent abuses.
The report says that the "hundreds of armed militias" that took part in the overthrow of Gaddafi's regime continue to operate more or less independently of the central authorities. Since the fall of Tripoli last August, the militias have failed to disband – and now pose a serious threat to a democratic Libya.
Libya's ruling National Transitional Council (NTC) has "failed to get a grip" on the militia problem, Amnesty says. The NTC has taken no action against fighters from either side involved in human rights abuses, and has not brought to justice those involved in extrajudicial killings – including of Gaddafi and his son Mutassim, captured and executed last October.
Additionally, there is overwhelming evidence that Libya's victorious militias use torture. Thousands of detainees are being held in various prisons across the country. In at least 12 cases since October, prisoners have been tortured to death, including Omar Brebesh, Libya's former ambassador to France, who died in Tripoli last month.
Donatella Rovera, the author of the Amnesty report, said she witnessed violence against detainees first hand at one militia jail in Misrata. "I was leaving the place, three guys, two in military clothes, were beating the hell out of two detainees," she told the Guardian. "When I said: 'What are you doing?' he [a captor] said: 'These guys are not going to be released.'" She said she complained, and later returned to the jail, to find the detainees had been freed. But she said Amnesty's call for the NTC to take action had fallen on deaf ears. "I have not seen one single case that is being investigated," she said.
Rovera, who spent several months in Libya, said militia violence against detainees was not universal but that the violence is unchecked. "Within the militias there are members who don't agree with what's going on and feel that they are not able to expose it." She said Nato nations that played a large part in winning the war for the former rebels should put more pressure on the authorities to act. "Their friends including the UK need to start telling them [The Libyan authorities]. The international friends who supported them, they need to snap out of this self-congratulatory complacent attitude."
Amnesty interviewed dozens of prisoners in January and February. They were being held in and around Tripoli, as well as in the cities of Zawiya, Gharyan, Misrata and Sirte. Detainees said they had been suspended in contorted positions; beaten for hours with whips, sticks and bars; and given electric shocks with live wires and Taser-like weapons. "The patterns of injuries observed were consistent with their testimonies," Amnesty said.
Since the former regime's collapse, the militias have rounded up thousands of suspected Gaddafi loyalists, together with soldiers and alleged foreign mercenaries, the report says. Militias have also looted and burned homes, forcibly displacing tens of thousands of people, and meting out collective punishment against communities seen as having supported Gaddafi during the fighting.
In Misrata, the coastal city that saw some of the worst battles, families who fled have returned to discover that their apartments have been given to other people. Locals have accused them of being traitors and have expropriated or burned down their properties. The Misrata militias have also razed the regime-loyal town of Tawargha, 18 miles (30km) east of Misrata, forcing the entire population of 30,000 to flee. On a recent visit to Misrata's main military prison, a former school, the Guardian saw no visible signs of mistreatment, with several hundred inmates gathered in the playground area. Approximately 40 prisoners had lined up suitcases and canvas bags, ready to be discharged with prison authorities saying they were no longer suspected of war crimes.
But Médicines Sans Frontières (MSF), which quit treating tortured prisoners last month in protest at continuing mistreatment of detainees, said it occurs at several militia bases elsewhere in Misrata, with the victims returned, wounded, to the former school, and in some cases taken out again for fresh torture. MSF said it has treated 112 detainees who were the victims of torture, some more than once, prompting its decision to quit Misrata in protest.
One non-military source in Misrata said the problem rested with the lack of a command structure for the militias; each prisoner is in effect the property of the militia who arrested him. While some militias may be lenient, others can be harsh, and there is no military police organisation to enforce standards of conduct. The militias have also detained black Libyans and migrant workers from sub-Saharan Africa – accusing them of being hired Gaddafi mercenaries. Many have been tortured. "The NTC-led transitional government appears to have neither the authority nor the political will to rein in the militias, many of which are reluctant to submit to the central authority," Amnesty says.
Hana el-Gallal, of Libya's National Council for General Freedoms and Rights, a human rights group, said the problem rested with a lack of control over militias. "We do have torture, but it is not systematic, it is individual. We need to address this as fast as possible." She said a visit to detainees held in a makeshift prison in the coastal town of Sirte in January lasted five minutes, with Amnesty officials told to leave before it was possible to interview and examine the inmates. "There is a lot the NTC can and should do," she said. "This kind of chaos is very bad for security, for business, for everything in Libya."
Some 2,400 detainees remain in centres controlled by the new Libyan government. But the militias are believed to be holding thousands more. The International Committee of the Red Cross reported that between March and December 2011 it visited 8,500 detainees in some 60 detention centres. Speaking in January, the UN commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, said bluntly: "There's torture, extrajudicial executions, rape of both men and women."
Torture was used throughout Gaddafi's brutal 42-year reign. But testimony from detainees suggests that not much has changed. A 29-year-old former soldier told Amnesty he had been visiting Tripoli with a friend last November when two armed men grabbed him and took him to an unknown location. The men, part of a Nafusa mountains militia, accused him of having fought with Gaddafi.
He recalled: "They forced me to lie on my back on a bed and my hands and legs were tied to the frame. In this position I was beaten with fists on my face. Then they beat me with a plastic hose on my feet. Later, I had to turn around face-down and was tied again to the bed. In that position, I was beaten again with a hose on my back and on the head. I was also subjected to electric shocks to various parts of my body including my left arm and chest. The instrument they used was a black stick about 50cm long. My cousin was also subjected to electric shocks." He continued: "The torture lasted until about 3am. Then they put us in a vehicle and drove us back to the road to Tripoli, where they left us."
Another 45-year-old army officer from Tripoli of Tawargha origin, said he was repeatedly tortured in January after reporting to work at his military base, now occupied by the rebels. "Even before I was asked the first question I was beaten with a wooden stick and a heavy rubber cable while I was tied with one wrist to the iron bar of a window and with the other to a metal locker or cabinet," he told Amnesty.
"Later they tied me to the metal frame of a bed and beat me again with a rubber cable. The beating caused bleeding injuries and scars are still visible on my body. The beating also dislocated my right shoulder, which needed surgery.
"Two weeks ago my whole body was covered in bruises. They also subjected me to electric shocks through live wires while I was lying on the floor. They put the electricity to different parts of my body – including my wrists and toes. At one point I fainted and they threw water at me to wake me up."
In some cases prisoners died. A postmortem examination into the death of Fakhri al-Hudairi al-Amari – killed last November – found bruise marks in parallel lines across the body; marks of electric shocks; two nails missing on the left hand; burn marks on the forehead, right forearm and left wrist; bruising around both ankles; and severe abrasions on the soles of the feet. Other cases were similar.
Last November Libya's new interior ministry issued a decree prohibiting "revolutionary brigades" from arresting and interrogating suspects. But the decree is widely ignored, Amnesty said.
Source: The Guardian, Thursday 16 February 2012.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Syria, like Libya under Khadaffi, also has some oil, and plenty of bank reserves. But curiously, though Syria is killing even more unarmed protesters than Libya, and is a direct enemy and former attacker of US Mideast client Israel, and is a documented supporter of terrorism for well nigh 2 decades (Reagan bombed Syrian positions in 1980s Lebanon for example), "the West" isn't somehow rushing to "intervene" in Syria. Now why is that?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ how does Syria support terrorism?
quote:"the West" isn't somehow rushing to "intervene" in Syria. Now why is that?
Well, they are. But tell us why you think they aren't.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
What do you yourself think?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
cop out
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Militia storms hotel in Libya after guest told to pay overdue bill
If they get your pink-pale ass around Libie, they will roast it in the sunlight....
Beetch!
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
stalking much. lol
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Race-based lynchings continue in Libya
All the info was received in my email
"As some of you may know the 'uprising' in Libya against Gaddafi had serious racial undertones...it always did have...Gaddafi was right too about the so-called Rebels...they were a mixture of Western Agents, Criminals and al-Qaeda......Gaddafi himself did not hide his strong affiliation for dark skinned people...he more than any Arab leader or African leader for that matter did more for supporting Pan Africanist movements or causes for black and oppressed people worldwide....Libyan terrestial TV was full of positive pro-Black programmes...historical, Political and religious....in 1998 Gaddafi made the following statement
"I would like Libya to become a black country. Hence, I recommend to Libyan men to marry only black women and to Libyan women to marry black men."
sources: Orlandoweekly.com – COLUMNS: Brand recognition,Libya: News and Views, Kadafi Lambastes Arab Allies' Stance in Pan Am Blast Case – Los Angeles Times
A significant number of fair skinned Libyans hated his affiliation with Sub-Saharan Black Africa and the uprising gave them the opportunity to express that hatred by violently attacking any dark skinned person they saw even the original dark skinned Libyans in Benghazi, Tripoli and the mainly black skinned region known as the Fezzan.
In the attached video clip some of these dark skinned Libyans are being interviewed about the Rebels and their real motive....the person who uploaded the interview put subtitles so that those who don’t understand Arabic can understand what is being said...but even this ‘liberal’ person showed their prejudice by leaving out the last 4 minutes of translation...i have summarised what was said from 7:40 onwards
Libya is an African country
The original people of Libya were black
Libya was previously known as Gumra as-Sumra ( the Dark skinned Country )
That the white Libyans have only been in Libya less than 300 years
That Gaddafi has been protecting the dark skinned Libyans from the racist fair skinned Libyans
That many of the Rebels were known criminals
There is blatant lynching of dark skinned Libyans and other dark skinned Africans that the media has ignored
In the second video...you can see a lynch mob in action....here they have captured a dark skinned Libyan..an original Libyan not a migrant worker from Nigeria, Ghana or Sudan..he was walking home from the shops in Benghazi when the mob approached him...they accused him of being a Gaddafi supporter....during the video clip he is racially insulted..in response he tells them that he is a Libyan national like them and not a Mercenary...he says he is a family man..the Mob say he is a liar...they later on Lynch him and mutilate his body...they even had the wickedness of heart to record themselves doing it...his family later appear in the video explaining that he was not a mercenary.....that he was born in Libya and worked in construction...the images of him in uniform show him when he was doing his national Service...the family go on to say that the Rebels who opposed Gaddafi are wicked Devils masquerading as Muslims.
I wonder what the reaction of that Satanic Lynch mob who claim to be Muslims and anyone else of the same mentality...i wonder what their reaction would be if they ever knew that the same Prophet Mohamed, His Family and the majority of the early supporters of Islam looked just like the very same man they racially abused and murdered?
Who are they voting for? Who can they vote for?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Just need to add here that I didn't write the above so I don't know what all the story is. From what I have heard Al-Qaeda is also involved but since this racial problem against "blacks" has been going on a lot longer in North AFrica than the Muslim brotherhood.
It was very much a part of North AFrican history since the days of the crusaders.
In Spain one of the Berber leaders had to issue an edict protecting both "the blacks" and "the whites" against violence because of the conflict going on there amongst Muslim Cordobans and Berbers.
Ibn Idhari wrote “wa akhraja al al-nida fi aqtar al balad bi amanat al-ahmar (whites) wa l-aswad (blacks)” .
Similarly Salah-din acted in very racist ways against the black troops making up the backbone of the Fatimids. He disbanded them. Many were vanquished to remote parts of Upper Egypt, and appropriated their propoerties. It seems however that the blacks may have started the fighting.
And of course the same racial contempt and violence existed between Greek Copts andthe black or native Egyptian and Abyssinian Copts.
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quote:You mean the opportunists in Benghazi - or one of the fractions there. I say this because even neocon warmonger H. Clinton was skeptical about whether or not there was even an "opposition" so to speak in Benghazi. They are really a rag-tag of opportunists, Islamists and criminals. Maybe a few rational, educated, genuine, democrats in the mix but we all know from Iraq experience that they will be eventually pushed aside by the loud mouth opportunists.
