I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...it is true that they mixed with Arabs like Ethiopians and Northern Somalis but to a lesser extent...they are much darker than the majority of Ethiopians or Northern Somalis or Southern Africans(who are lighter than most Africans)...here is the Arab ambassador in the UK, the majority of the so called Arab Sudanese look like him, the majority look like West African, Southern Sudanese and some with a mix of Arab blood, the majority just look like Black African although they tend to look more like broad faced Africans: Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...
Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Habari wrote: Northern Arab Sudanese look like the average Black African
Tell that to them and they'll stick a kalashnikov up your ass. Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Habari the coo..coo..coo wrote:
quote:
Hey coo..coo..coo why don't you use some of that psycho time you spend worrying about features and worry about those Indians that control your country and those 70 year old wrinkly white yettis bedding your young boys.
You know I get the feeling that you obsess features because your ass is 500 miles past the city of ugly.
Have a good nights rest coo..coo..coo. : )
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
And for those not in the know coo..coo..coo got what he said from the Sudanese Ambassador to the U.S.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?
Alive-(What Box), how did your teeth get those shapes. Why don't you go somewhere and fixem, them motherfuckers is spooky.
Guys, Alive-(What Box) posted his picture to the forum a year or so ago and his teeth were shaped like the Keebler Elves.
Alive-(What Box) this is going to be your new name.....
"Keebler Teeth"
LOL : )
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
quote:Tell that to them and they'll stick a kalashnikov up your ass.
They don't even fight in Darfur or Southern Sudan, they just send surrogates:"Arab" militia who are even darker than you average African(I mean they live in the Sahel-Sahara)...
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Hey Alive-(What Box), oh I'm sorry Geeves (since you are the forum's butler).
Damn, I forgot you've got a new name. Well in that case:
Hey Keebler Teeth
You say that you are from Yompton. Since that is the case then you probably don't know who your father is do you?
Your mother probably doesn't know who he is from the hundreds of guys she's been in the sack with either.
I guess that explains you. LOL! : )
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
Lmao
Your funny in a sick way.
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
quote:Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?
So why do you post anything?
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
This bitch actually mention my name?
Oh I'm Jeeves?
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?
No, but I've noticed how non-childish your mom is.
quote:Originally posted by Habari:
quote:Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?
So why do you post anything?
Oh, I just thought I'd let you know, and I saw some nice videos.
Speaking of videos, I wonder why they made argyle so phreaking upset?
Yeah, but my indifference to your thread...
It's pretty much the reason I don't really post in your threads anymore unless I see an ignorant comment.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Hey Alive-(What Box), oh I'm sorry Geeves (since you are the forum's butler).
Damn, I forgot you've got a new name. Well in that case:
Hey Keebler Teeth
You say that you are from Yompton.
Perhaps you should come visit, so you could come and get straightened out. Or flattened out .
quote:Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?
Alive-(What Box), how did your teeth get those shapes.
ROFL!
I don't recall posting an image of me showing my teeth, but you're funny.
Only thing I don't get is what pissed you off about my post. :???
I don't get it? Why get so upset over the posting of some black babilicious college eye-candy?
This doesn't matchup with your frustrated remarks about black men 'sleeping with all other races/ethnicities of women but their own'
Unless...
You suffer from the same white male disorder syndrome found in Francess Cress Welsing's Papers, black male penis envy/lust, which Malcom X wrote about as well and I've even seen admitted in some hilarious forums!
Perhaps we should call you Agatha, or something such. I'll just call you Argly. Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Some populations do show admixture or recent migration or just plain Saharan features not common in Sub Saharan Africa.
Shoot, just do an image search for the Rashaida of Sudan Rashaida of Sudan
The Baggara of Sudan are not the only Arabic people in SUdan. They are just the largest and probably the one with most admixture or just arabization of southern populations.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Look Chimu...
Ric Flair burns love letters.
Get over it.
LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Alive-(What Box) wrote:
------------------------ ------------------------
Your mama is in a profession......
Well let me just say, the profession she is in, is one where most of the women have chipped teeth.
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAARAAAARRRRRRGHAHAHA!
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Chimu,
Soap and water ain't your enemy.
You don't have to go through life smellin like you've just played 9 physically grueling games of 36.
LOL : )
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Hey Alive-(What Box)
Your orthodonist just called
bwahahaheeeeeeeeeeeee!
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
We know argyle likes soap. He constantly picks it up in the jail showers.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Chimu wrote:
--------------------------- We know argyle likes soap. He constantly picks it up in the jail showers. ---------------------------
Well I had an internship at the jail and one of the duties was to pick up any stray items that was on the floor.
Can you answer a question?
Why is it that your picture is in 1 out of every 6 jail cells with an appointment date on it? : )
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
If you mean to imply that certain looks necissarily qualify some Sudaneseas being of non-African stock, and assumably, that this has bearings on the phenetic makeup of Africans said to be the Ancient and *indigenous* Kemtwy ["Egyptians"], then, Chimu, do you comprehend the following?
quote: J. Edwards, A. Leathers, et al.
"...based on Howell’s sampling Fordisc 2.0 authors state that "there are no races, only populations," yet it is clear that Howell was intent on providing known groups that would be distributed among the continental "racial" groups. We tested the accuracy and effectiveness of Fordisc 2.0 using twelve cranial measurements from a homogeneous population from the X-Group period of Sudanese Nubia (350CE-550CE). When the Fordisc program classified the adult X-Group crania, only 51 (57.3%) of 89 individuals were classified within groups from Africa. Others were placed in such diverse groups as Polynesian (11.24%), European (7.86%), Japanese (4.49%), Native American (3.37%), Peruvian (3.36%), Australian (1.12), Tasmanian (1.12%), and Melanesian (1.12%). The implications of these findings suggest that classifying populations, whether by geography or by "race", is not morphologically or biologically accurate because of the wide variation even in homogeneous populations."
Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation -April 2005, Current Anthropology:
It is well known that human biological variation is principally clinal (i.e., structured as gradients) and not racial (i.e., structured as a small number of fairly discrete groups). We have shown that for a temporally and geographically homogeneous East African population, the most widely used “racial” program fails to identify the skeletal material accurately. The assignment of skeletal racial origin is based principally upon stereotypical features found most frequently in the most geographically distant populations. While this is useful in some contexts (for example, sorting skeletal material of largely West African ancestry from skeletal material of largely Western European ancestry), it fails to identify populations that originate elsewhere and misrepresents fundamental patterns of human biological diversity.
[Hence, since traits vary clinally West Africans and Europeans should be out of the phenetic equation when dealing in modern East Africa.]
quote:Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation(Paperback) by Barry Kemp (Author) Publisher: Routledge; 2 edition (December 12, 2005) p.54
"Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans"
And what it means for any presupposed notion of a phenetic correlation with genotype vs. the reality of the phenetic correlation with geographic location (and the attached climatic properties thereof).
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Hmmmmm...
No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?
quote:Here, both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations can be considered to be hybrids of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa and the Near East. Therefore, the proximity of Yemenis to Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot and the insignificant southeastern African contribution revealed by the admixture analysis could reflect only the trivial fact that the northeastern African and Yemeni populations are all hybrids of the same basic components.
quote:On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas »40% is of Caucasoid derivation (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
quote:Considering both paternal and maternal lineages, only 5.4% of the mtDNAs can be classified as Caucasoid (table 3), whereas 25.4% of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes have a clear Caucasoid origin (12f2–8 kb; table 6). If one also includes as Caucasoid mtDNA types the ambiguous haplogroup U and the 10 DdeI10394AluI10397 (22) haplotypes that did not show any tested non-Caucasoid feature, there could be a maximum of 27.0% of “Caucasoid-like” mtDNAs in the Ethiopian population. On the other hand, considering that the 12f2–8 kb allele can account for as much as 44% of the Caucasoid Y chromosomes (the highest observed incidence of this allele), a male genetic admixture of 57.7% between Caucasoids and Africans is obtained in Ethiopia. Interestingly, the average level of admixture estimated from our mtDNA and Y-chromosome data (42.3%) is very similar to estimates based on autosomal studies (40%) (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174). However, our data suggest that Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.
quote:The frequency of the DdeI10394AluI10397 (11) haplotype is of interest in this regard. As shown in table 4, this haplotype is virtually absent in Caucasoid populations (Indians excepted) and other sub-SaharanAfricans. It has been found in India (Passarino et al. 1996c), in eastern Asia, and in peoples who migrated very early from eastern Asia (i.e., Australians, Papua New Guineans, and Amerindians: Ballinger et al. 1992; Torroni et al. 1992, 1993a, 1993b, 1994a, 1994c, 1994d). On the basis of its distribution and antiquity (estimated at 40,250–80,500 years ago [Chen et al. 1995] and 30,250–60,500 years ago [Passarino et al. 1996a]), we have suggested elsewhere that it preceded the split between proto-Indians and proto–eastern Asians (Passarino et al. 1996a, 1996c). This haplotype reaches a frequency of »20% in Ethiopia and has never been observed in mtDNA molecules of the other African or Caucasoid lineages (Torroni et al. 1994b, 1996; Chen et al. 1995; Passarino et al. 1996c; present study). Thus, it is likely that the Ethiopian Ethiopian and Asian DdeI10394–AluI10397 (11) haplotypes have a common origin. If so, then this marker either (1) has been acquired by Ethiopians through interchanges with Asians (indicating an Asiatic component in the Ethiopian genetic structure) or (2) was present in the ancient Ethiopian population and was carried by groups who migrated out of Africa. In the case of the second hypothesis, the very low (1%–2%) frequency of this marker in the Middle East (table 4; and A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, unpublished data) would support the hypothesis of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa via the eastern Africa–western India route (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 195).
quote:The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. With the exception of some surveys on the general Ethiopian populations, little is known about the degree of genetic differentiation between the Amhara and the Oromo. Aim : The study seeks to investigate the genetic structure of these two heterogeneous Ethiopian populations and to characterize their relationships with other African and Mediterranean peoples. Subjects and methods : Amhara and Oromo individuals ( n = 171) were analysed for three RFLPs (restriction fragment length polymorphisms) of the COL1A2 gene. To better define the genetic relationship between the two Ethiopian groups, and also between African and non-African peoples, genetic distances among Amhara, Oromo and other populations were estimated using the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies, and the allele frequencies of 16 additional classical markers. Results : le2 analysis applied to the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies showed a small but statistically significant degree of heterogeneity between the two Ethiopian populations. Combining the information obtained from the three RFLP markers, a significant level of differentiation (Fst = 0.0147, p = 0.036) was also detected between Amhara and Oromo. The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position. This pattern is consistent with the location of the two Ethiopian groups in other genetic analysis and with cultural data. Conclusions : The present findings suggest the presence of a differential level of genetic relatedness with south-Saharan peoples in the two Ethiopian groups, which could reflect their different history and seems to indicate the existence of genetic sub-structure within the country.
Posted by Wolofi (Member # 14892) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Hmmmmm...
No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?
quote:Here, both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations can be considered to be hybrids of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa and the Near East. Therefore, the proximity of Yemenis to Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot and the insignificant southeastern African contribution revealed by the admixture analysis could reflect only the trivial fact that the northeastern African and Yemeni populations are all hybrids of the same basic components.
quote:On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas »40% is of Caucasoid derivation (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
quote:Considering both paternal and maternal lineages, only 5.4% of the mtDNAs can be classified as Caucasoid (table 3), whereas 25.4% of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes have a clear Caucasoid origin (12f2–8 kb; table 6). If one also includes as Caucasoid mtDNA types the ambiguous haplogroup U and the 10 DdeI10394AluI10397 (22) haplotypes that did not show any tested non-Caucasoid feature, there could be a maximum of 27.0% of “Caucasoid-like” mtDNAs in the Ethiopian population. On the other hand, considering that the 12f2–8 kb allele can account for as much as 44% of the Caucasoid Y chromosomes (the highest observed incidence of this allele), a male genetic admixture of 57.7% between Caucasoids and Africans is obtained in Ethiopia. Interestingly, the average level of admixture estimated from our mtDNA and Y-chromosome data (42.3%) is very similar to estimates based on autosomal studies (40%) (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174). However, our data suggest that Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.
quote:The frequency of the DdeI10394AluI10397 (11) haplotype is of interest in this regard. As shown in table 4, this haplotype is virtually absent in Caucasoid populations (Indians excepted) and other sub-SaharanAfricans. It has been found in India (Passarino et al. 1996c), in eastern Asia, and in peoples who migrated very early from eastern Asia (i.e., Australians, Papua New Guineans, and Amerindians: Ballinger et al. 1992; Torroni et al. 1992, 1993a, 1993b, 1994a, 1994c, 1994d). On the basis of its distribution and antiquity (estimated at 40,250–80,500 years ago [Chen et al. 1995] and 30,250–60,500 years ago [Passarino et al. 1996a]), we have suggested elsewhere that it preceded the split between proto-Indians and proto–eastern Asians (Passarino et al. 1996a, 1996c). This haplotype reaches a frequency of »20% in Ethiopia and has never been observed in mtDNA molecules of the other African or Caucasoid lineages (Torroni et al. 1994b, 1996; Chen et al. 1995; Passarino et al. 1996c; present study). Thus, it is likely that the Ethiopian Ethiopian and Asian DdeI10394–AluI10397 (11) haplotypes have a common origin. If so, then this marker either (1) has been acquired by Ethiopians through interchanges with Asians (indicating an Asiatic component in the Ethiopian genetic structure) or (2) was present in the ancient Ethiopian population and was carried by groups who migrated out of Africa. In the case of the second hypothesis, the very low (1%–2%) frequency of this marker in the Middle East (table 4; and A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, unpublished data) would support the hypothesis of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa via the eastern Africa–western India route (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 195).
quote:The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. With the exception of some surveys on the general Ethiopian populations, little is known about the degree of genetic differentiation between the Amhara and the Oromo. Aim : The study seeks to investigate the genetic structure of these two heterogeneous Ethiopian populations and to characterize their relationships with other African and Mediterranean peoples. Subjects and methods : Amhara and Oromo individuals ( n = 171) were analysed for three RFLPs (restriction fragment length polymorphisms) of the COL1A2 gene. To better define the genetic relationship between the two Ethiopian groups, and also between African and non-African peoples, genetic distances among Amhara, Oromo and other populations were estimated using the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies, and the allele frequencies of 16 additional classical markers. Results : le2 analysis applied to the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies showed a small but statistically significant degree of heterogeneity between the two Ethiopian populations. Combining the information obtained from the three RFLP markers, a significant level of differentiation (Fst = 0.0147, p = 0.036) was also detected between Amhara and Oromo. The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position. This pattern is consistent with the location of the two Ethiopian groups in other genetic analysis and with cultural data. Conclusions : The present findings suggest the presence of a differential level of genetic relatedness with south-Saharan peoples in the two Ethiopian groups, which could reflect their different history and seems to indicate the existence of genetic sub-structure within the country.
I kind of figured Ethiopians weren't really true Africans. I am actually glad, I think this will benefit African studies and help keep Africa "pure" and keep people from begging for highly mixed people as brethren Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Coloureds/Half breeds.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Wolofi, take that vibrator out of your back pocket.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Jo Nongowawawawawawawawawawawawawa wrote:
------------------------ ------------------------
How did you learn to type while wearing a straight jacket? From David Copperfield?
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Wow, somebody's actually endorsing the guy's rediculous post?
Oh, it's just Wolofi, no surprise there.
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Hmmmmm...
No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?
You do realize that your context was different from my context, right?
I was only quoting what the authorities had to say about ancient Egyptians, not modern-day Ethiopians.
Even so, I am befuddled as to how anyone could fall for a 'study' that assigns genes that didn't arise in the Caucasus or in European people to a 'caucasian race'.
A sign some folks clearly want to have something to do with stuff they had little to do with.
"Approximately one-half of both Ethiopian (52.2%) and Yemeni (45.7%) mtDNA lineages belonged to clades specific to sub-Saharan Africa, whereas the other half was divided between derived subclades of haplogroupsMand N that are, with the exception of M1 and U6 lineages, more common outside Africa." - Kivisild 2004
Concerning M and N, to put things in perspective, from a study in 2006 we have:
"Although two mtDNA lineages with an African origin (haplogroups M and N) were the progenitors of all non-African haplogroups, macrohaplogroup L (including haplogroups L0-L6) is limited to sub-Saharan Africa." - Tishkoff and Kivisild 2006
So calling the genetic 'fathers' of all non-African lineages caucasian - influenced is more than a bit dis-ingenuous.
In fact:
quote:Caucasian 1. adj. Of or being a purported human racial classification traditionally distinguished by light [?] to brown skin color [?] and including peoples indigenous to Europe, N Africa, W Asia, and India. Not in scientific use.2. Of the Caucasus. n. 1. Anthro. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. 2. A native inhabitant of the Caucasus.
The Caucasus is a mountain region.
There's more:
quote:Caucasoid adj. Of or relating to the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use.
But most laymen will continue to do what they're free to:
that is believe what they want to believe in regardless of factual basis or lack thereof.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
The Usage of Caucasian is a unfortunate left over from racialism of the past. But if you read the study you realize they use the term to refer to all near easterners. SO just switch the word. The markers still show back migration into Africa And it is not modern but dates back to the Holocene
quote:"Several mtDNA haplogroups—such as (preHV)1, U6, and some subbranches of L3 that Ethiopians share with North African populations—display coalescent times in the early Holocene (table 3) a similar period to that estimated for North and East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78, which is abundant and may have originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78, these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample (table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period. On the other hand, similar to mtDNA haplogroup (preHV)1, Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1-M267 can be identified as the sole branch that is highly abundant in the Near and Middle East and in northeastern and East Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002, 2004; Luis et al. 2004). Higher STR diversity of this Y-chromosomal clade among Europeans and Ethiopians, as compared with populations from northeastern Africa and the Middle East, suggests that it may have reached Ethiopia (and Europe) early in the Holocene, whereas its frequent spread in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
quote:The Usage of Caucasian is a unfortunate left over from racialism of the past.
Agreed, the Caucasian notion is a total joke especially from an African perspective....
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: The markers still show back migration into Africa And it is not modern but dates back to the Holocene
quote:"Several mtDNA haplogroups—such as (preHV)1, U6, and some subbranches of L3 that Ethiopians share with North African populations—display coalescent times in the early Holocene (table 3) a similar period to that estimated for North and East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78, which is abundant and may have originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78, these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample (table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period. On the other hand, similar to mtDNA haplogroup (preHV)1, Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1-M267 can be identified as the sole branch that is highly abundant in the Near and Middle East and in northeastern and East Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002, 2004; Luis et al. 2004). Higher STR diversity of this Y-chromosomal clade among Europeans and Ethiopians, as compared with populations from northeastern Africa and the Middle East, suggests that it may have reached Ethiopia (and Europe) early in the Holocene, whereas its frequent spread in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).
Well, conserning the M267 lineages, it's awfully important to keep things in perspective:
quote:J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people
Let's take a look at Hg J in general, and then J-M267:
quote:J-M267 is notable, since this haplogroup shows its highest frequencies in the Middle East, North Africa, and Ethiopia (fig. 2B) and its lowest in Europe, having been observed only in the Mediterranean area.
quote:The lower internal variance of J-M267 in theMiddle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations. In the absence of additional binary polymorphisms allowing further informative subdivision of J-M267, the YCAII microsatellite system provides important insights. The majority of J-M267 Y chromosomes harbor the single-banded motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the Middle East (>70%) and in North Africa (>90%), whereas this association is much less frequent in Ethiopia and only sporadically found in southern Europe. Considering the distribution of this YCAII single- banded pattern—which, besides the usual stepwise mutational mechanism, could be due to a stable mutational event (one locus deletion or a single-nucleotide mutation in the primer sequence)—we suggest that the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 potentially characterizes a monophyletic clade of J-M267. A comparable situation is observed within Hg I-M170, in which the single-banded haplotype YCAIIa21-YCAIIb21 parallels a biallelic marker (O.S., unpublished data).
According to this interpretation, the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of theMiddle East and in North Africa.
quote:Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/ YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa.
I would like to know what qualifies the term "The Middle East" to be used in the bolded of the abov piece (an ever growing shrinking term that sometimes encompasses Egypt, Sudan, all of North Africa, South Western Asia, and sometimes a big chunk of the Indian sub-continent) -> what exactly the "Middle East" means.
I would like for the bolded to be more specific.
Even so, in North Africa this is deemed to be the result of more recent diffusion "of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa" and so I don't see how it would be a relevant rebuttal to what I posted earlier.
Of course, as a member that went by the alias al Takruri put it, there were no invisible bug-zappers set to non-African fatality at the borders of Kemet, and Kemet had much to offer, and so there was probable immigration. However, what I posted was primarily in response to the intense racialized attitude toward Kemet while not doing the same for civilizations out side of it.
With the Holocene African outmigration into the Levant, and African lineages all the way to Greece, perhaps we should talk about their ethnicities as being "admixed" too.
Everyone's "mixed", we all come from common ancestors.
Persia is South Asian, Greece was European, and Kemet African.
And before anyone talks about contributions: don't forget Europe and the "Mid-East" civilizations have Kemetian contributions of there own.
Not that what I've posted has been refuted -> it includes some of the most up-to-date material in comparison to what you've posted.
However it seems that many take my material and go off on "there MUST have been SOME non-blacks there" modern political oriented tirades as if my material is posted with anti-non African intentions.
The only sentiment behind what I post is perhaps the idea that Ancient Egypt/ Kem.t should be given the same respect approach that other ancient cultures are given no matter how much it offends self-proclaimed "whites" and "non-Africans" and that double-standards should be eliminated.
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Hmmmmm...
No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?
What I quoted was this:
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time.
Posted by Charlie Bass (Member # 10328) on :
Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: [QB] Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years
And are now a part of Sudan. And only some of the pictures I posted were Rashaida. So try again.
quote:As for paternal contributions from the Mid East to Ethiopia - hg E variants are dominant in both sides. However, although there are many sub-lineages of Y chromosome hg E known, deeper work is needed at the level of fine branches, in order to compare STR variation within shared branches to get idea about split time. To the best of my knowledge nobody has so far studied such details - and of course it is not so easy to collect representative samples either.
Sounds like more work needs to be done.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
"Mixed"?
What truly entails this 'mixed'.
If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?
Posted by Charlie Bass (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): "Mixed"?
What truly entails this 'mixed'.
If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?
"In any case, migrations before the demonstrable emergence of known language families and food production belong to a level of biological history that long antedates the interaction of current ethnic groups, and care should be taken not to express admixture in terms of these .......Migration and gene flow at a later time is an issue."
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN BIOLOGY 16:679–689 (2004)
Posted by Wolofi (Member # 14892) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): "Mixed"?
What truly entails this 'mixed'.
If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?
Watch out for this kid he is a Mulatto too. Don't fall for his charm because now he is going to say everyone is mixed too Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
quote:I kind of figured Ethiopians weren't really true Africans. I am actually glad, I think this will benefit African studies and help keep Africa "pure" and keep people from begging for highly mixed people as brethren
just curious according to your standards, as a native african, constitutes being pure african? What if an AA learned the language and cultre of the wolof nation would he be acccepted as a member? Do AA's remind you of any africans that you are familiar with?
Posted by Wolofi (Member # 14892) on :
Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people. But I admit I would not have guessed that Don Cheadle had 20% European ancestry.
Pure African just means no admixture from arabs, Berbers or non Africans.
YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people and very good natured so they would accept an African American learning the language and culture with no problem. We don't have a problem with them in New York where most of us are. Nigerians might though.
But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language? Why are you interested in Africa or it's culture if I may ask?
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wolofi:
Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people.
YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people
You must not be Wolof then. Your views are the only thing "screwed up" and certainly Diop would attest to this. Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock. Posted by Mmmkay (Member # 10013) on :
quote:Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock.
^ Members of the troll "Legion of Doom" here on ES, opposite the ES "Justice League" .
Posted by Wolofi (Member # 14892) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by Wolofi:
Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people.
YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people
You must not be Wolof then. Your views are the only thing "screwed up" and certainly Diop would attest to this. Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock.
There are rumors Diop was gay and he married a white woman. What does Diop have to do with anything lol?
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
quote:Nigerians might though.
That is interesting. Do you have further info of why that may be?
quote:But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language?
I am an arab.
quote:Why are you interested in Africa or it's culture if I may ask?
im trying to live there.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
^^ Diop was Wolof, Senegalese and African. Oh, dare I say this? He was also a Black and did have a French wife (a White). Now, why would Diop view "Afro Americans" as "a very screwed up people" or take issue with African-Americans/ Diasporan Africans of the Maafa having an interest in African ethnicities and cultures?
You see no self respecting Wolof person (as Diop was) would hold such negative views about African-Americans or Diasporan Africans!
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
quick question to any of the senegambians on here. Being nurtured and more informative of the senegambian regions, ,may i ask that are there any distinctive signs(physical features, dress,manners) other than language that nominates one as a serer, pula, mandinka, etc.? There is a member here re white and blue who is heavily into the senegambian diaspora to N. america. DO you see any physical characteristics from AA's that remind you of any of the ethni-national groups?
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habari: I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...it is true that they mixed with Arabs like Ethiopians and Northern Somalis but to a lesser extent...they are much darker than the majority of Ethiopians or Northern Somalis or Southern Africans(who are lighter than most Africans)...here is the Arab ambassador in the UK, the majority of the so called Arab Sudanese look like him, the majority look like West African, Southern Sudanese and some with a mix of Arab blood, the majority just look like Black African although they tend to look more like broad faced Africans:
-Here in the USA the media usually makes it out to be "Arab militias from the North targeting Black christians from the South".
-In terms of phenotype, I don't really see Sudanese that resemble African Americans on average.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^True.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass:
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): "Mixed"?
What truly entails this 'mixed'.
If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?
"In any case, migrations before the demonstrable emergence of known language families and food production belong to a level of biological history that long antedates the interaction of current ethnic groups, and care should be taken not to express admixture in terms of these .......Migration and gene flow at a later time is an issue."
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN BIOLOGY 16:679–689 (2004)
^Yess.
I was simply trying to stir the thoughts a few posters.
Saying "mixed" like saying caucasoid/caucasian or African (the way Marc defines it based on phenotype alone, with no chronally relevant recent ancestry applicable - making us all African; thusly subtly and deceptively using "African" as a substitute for "human with certain features") can be arbitrary.
That is why dating for genetic mutations and skeletons is necissary.
It's also why assessing the time frames in which genetic diffusion happened is necissary and why blind statements like "must've been mixed" are/can be biologically meaningless.
Anyway, perhaps laymen that wish to waste away at their fantasies of other peoples' origins should go watch The Mummy series, other hollywood flicks like The Ten Commandments, or if those aren't your style go visit Dodona forums or do a search through this site of posts made by Horemheb/Celt/Arrow99/TheAmericanHammer, Marc Washington, Abaza, Stupid-Euro, the premature Bass-Master ( lol Charlie), and the list goes on.
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
quote:But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language?
I am an arab.
Wow I knew there had to have been some cool ass Arabs on htis forum!
Going from quotes alone (at least one I've recently read you're far more down than Wolofi or Yonis).
And no, for the record, you don't necissarily have to pay verbal tribute to be black or black (down with blacks) in to me - you just have to be a cool or genuinely ...'good' person.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
USA troll chum wrote:
----------------------- -In terms of phenotype, I don't really see Sudanese that resemble African Americans on average. -----------------------
Then why did I come across some "Northern Sudanese" that were saying that Bill Cosby looked like he was from "Northern or Central" Sudan? I know this makes you angry. : )
And how do you explain some other African Americans who resemble Sudanese?
Are you nervous now? LOL!
Amazing how so many Africans from all over the continent mistake AAs for one of their own or say that AAs resemble them.
You may dry your eyes now. : )
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years
-I don't see how Chimu's posts insinuate that the Sudan is populated by Mulattos. He posted various pics, not just Rashaida.
-The Sudanese are very much a heterogeneous population of various ethnic groups.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): "Mixed"?
What truly entails this 'mixed'.
If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?
Mixed as in two socio-cultural groups. Obviously culturers that are in pivotal regions where migration can come from various cultures and phenotypes can be varied as well, then "mixed looks" will occur. Which just means populations that have characterisitcs of more than just one population. Then you have clinal variation as well which just means that as a population moves farther away froma region changes may occur and with time three populations can exist. The one that remained adjusting further to their original environment, the ones that moved to an intermediate position and the ones that moved to an even more differentiated place. Of course migration itself could function as a selective force or not allow for selectiveness to occur based on environmental factors if constantly changing. The point though is that variation in looks will occur in the different populations. Then if they mix among themselves new looks can occur as well.
So a population can look different just from movement and one population can look somewhere in between from just moving less. Or they might look somewhere inbetween from back migrations and admixture. We can look and make all types of assumptions, but genetics is the best answer as to phenotypical change just through environmental change or through environmental change and subsequent admixture with another population.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: USA troll chum wrote:
Then why did I come across some "Northern Sudanese" that were saying that Bill Cosby looked like he was from "Northern or Central" Sudan?
And how do you explain some other African Americans who resemble some Sudanese peoples?
I know that you are now nervous. LOL!
Do the words "on average" mean anything to you? Does the personal statement "that I've seen" register?
I've seen AA's that can look like alot of other nationalities, and?
One more time: On average, AA's do not look like Northern Sudanese.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Mixed as in two socio-cultural groups.
Oh.
Yes, this goes for alot of Asia and Europe as well, as alot of their social (customary/religious) systems have their roots elsewhere and so these same system coming back to Africa can just obfuscate the picture.
Alot of people also don't recognized Berber customs as the African customs that they are.
Largely probably because many (as indigenous and mixed North/Saharan Africans along with the Tuareg) live in North Africa and have light skin like alot of North Africans do, yet dark skin gets associated with "sub-saharan" admixture and slaves - naturally because of the political atmosphere in the U.S.
It's funny that actually, white skin is the non-indigenous element in North Africa and Europeans were the recent advent, the - mainly female - slaves, and genetics confirms this.
quote:Originally posted by USA: -I don't see how Chimu's posts insinuate that the Sudan is populated by Mulattos. He posted various pics, not just Rashaida.
^^
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Some populations do show admixture or recent migration or just plain Saharan features not common in Sub Saharan Africa.
quote:Originally posted by USA: -The Sudanese are very much a heterogeneous population
What do you mean by heterogeneous? Heterogenous like all African countries, more genetically diverse or containing more non-indigenous elements?
quote: of various ethnic groups.
(dubious claim)
Most places have them. Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by USA: I've seen AA's that can look like alot of other nationalities, and?
On average, AA's do not look like Northern Sudanese.
On a similar but slightly off-topic note:
I've read of (and met) AAs that were "mistaken as Egyptians![?]" (and perhaps were apparently surprised by the fact because of a dis-association between modern Egypt and Africa pervading thru to what their pre-suppositions of who Egyptian people are.
^The above man is meduim skinned, (actually my skin color, and I'm not sure if this is considered within the range of indigenous African skin coloration,) but IMHO probably has the look (if one could - that modern country is probably indigenously as well as in generally diverse) of the Average Egyptian.
^(Fellahin)
(^She looks JUST just like my moms friend, who is darker though) (Delta btw)
^(Fellahin)
(from the Delta)
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Also I don't give a damn about on "average" because unless you know what every AA looks like, your "average" doesn't mean a thing since you don't know what every AA looks like.
I tend to take the word of Africans, African Americans, and what my own eyes tell me over the lies of a jealous troll envious of the ancestry of African Americans.
Now dry your eyes. : )
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Wow it seems every pic of the Alexandra Egyptians won't allow you to post/paste! (the spaceball thing)
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Mixed as in two socio-cultural groups.
Oh.
Yes, this goes for alot of Asia and Europe as well, as alot of their social (customary/religious) systems have their roots elsewhere and so these same system coming back to Africa can just obfuscate the picture.
Alot of people also don't recognized Berber customs as the African customs that they are.
Largely probably because many (as indigenous and mixed North/Saharan Africans along with the Tuareg) live in North Africa and have light skin like alot of North Africans do, yet dark skin gets associated with "sub-saharan" admixture and slaves - naturally because of the political atmosphere in the U.S.
It's funny that actually, white skin is the non-indigenous element in North Africa and Europeans were the recent advent, the - mainly female - slaves, and genetics confirms this.
quote:Originally posted by USA: -I don't see how Chimu's posts insinuate that the Sudan is populated by Mulattos. He posted various pics, not just Rashaida.
^^
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Some populations do show admixture or recent migration or just plain Saharan features not common in Sub Saharan Africa.
quote:Originally posted by USA: -The Sudanese are very much a heterogeneous population
What do you mean by heterogeneous? Heterogenous like all African countries, more genetically diverse or containing more non-indigenous elements?
quote: of various ethnic groups.
(dubious claim)
Most places have them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto -Mulatto (Spanish mulato, small mule, person of mixed race, mulatto, from mulo, mule, from Old Spanish, from Latin mūlus.) is a person of mixed black and white ancestry or the offspring of one white parent and one black parent or someone 50% black and 50% white.[1] ^ Again, how does Chimu's posted pics of Sudanese suggest that the Sudan is a mulatto country?
Meaning the Sudan is composed of many ethnicities that include Blacks, Arabs (wether actual or culturally Arabicized) Beja, etc. What is so dubious about that?
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Meaning the Sudan is composed of many ethnicities that include Blacks, Arabs (wether actual or culturally Arabicized) Beja, etc. What is so dubious about that?
Last time I checked, Beja were Black Africans. Also, "Black" isn't an ethnic group, it comprises many ethnic groups and mainly signifies relatively dark skin tone.
Also I don't give a damn about on "average" because unless you know what every AA looks like, your "average" doesn't mean a thing since you don't know what every AA looks like.
I tend to take the word of Africans, African Americans, and what my own eyes tell me over the lies of a jealous troll envious of the ancestry of African Americans.
Now dry your eyes. : )
Troll? lol @ the irony,that term fits you like a tee.
So, let me try to understand your myopic views on blackness: You think that because AA's descend from mostly Western Africa, they will on average look like any random African nationality? Let me end this post right here. And I'll take the words of Africans and New World (non-USA)Afrodiasporic people than the deluded posts of a lonely sensitive online geek with self esteem issues.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Meaning the Sudan is composed of many ethnicities that include Blacks, Arabs (wether actual or culturally Arabicized) Beja, etc. What is so dubious about that?
Last time I checked, Beja were Black Africans. Also, "Black" isn't an ethnic group, it comprises many ethnic groups and mainly signifies relatively dark skin tone.
That is the major ethnic breakdown in commonly refrenced sources (look it up), they can be also broken down further. The POINT being made is that the Sudan is composed of not just one group.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by USA:
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Meaning the Sudan is composed of many ethnicities that include Blacks, Arabs (wether actual or culturally Arabicized) Beja, etc. What is so dubious about that?
Last time I checked, Beja were Black Africans. Also, "Black" isn't an ethnic group, it comprises many ethnic groups and mainly signifies relatively dark skin tone.
That is the major ethnic breakdown in commonly refrenced sources (look it up), they can be also broken down further. The POINT being made is that the Sudan is composed of not just one group.
Blindly referencing misguided "sources" does nothing to substantiate the validity of the claim that "Black" is an ethnic group and that Beja aren't Black, so your blind and willful ignorance and appeals to authority have no significance. Of course Sudan doesn't comprise one ethnic group, that's redundant. The point I believe being made is that the vast majority of ethnic groups are Black African ones.
^Some of you will also have to learn someday not to chase the radical ideas of these spaced-out newbs whose only goal seems to be to pick a fight and move the goal post every two seconds.
quote:And I'll take the words of Africans and New World (non-USA) Afrodiasporic people than the deluded posts of a lonely sensitive online geek with self esteem issues.
LOL.. Point n case. When the outkast loser who knows little about Africans and their descendants starts feeling the pressure, they immediately cop out with an argument from ad hominem. One can see how arbitrary his methods are. He's a closed minded troll, let him rant.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by USA:
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Meaning the Sudan is composed of many ethnicities that include Blacks, Arabs (wether actual or culturally Arabicized) Beja, etc. What is so dubious about that?
Last time I checked, Beja were Black Africans. Also, "Black" isn't an ethnic group, it comprises many ethnic groups and mainly signifies relatively dark skin tone.
That is the major ethnic breakdown in commonly refrenced sources (look it up), they can be also broken down further. The POINT being made is that the Sudan is composed of not just one group.
Blindly referencing misguided "sources" does nothing to substantiate the validity of the claim that "Black" is an ethnic group and that Beja aren't Black, so your blind and willful ignorance and appeals to authority have no significance. Of course Sudan doesn't comprise one ethnic group, that's redundant. The point I believe being made is that the vast majority of ethnic groups are Black African ones.
^Some of you will also have to learn someday not to chase the radical ideas of these spaced-out newbs whose only goal seems to be to pick a fight and move the goal post every two seconds.
quote:And I'll take the words of Africans and New World (non-USA) Afrodiasporic people than the deluded posts of a lonely sensitive online geek with self esteem issues.
LOL.. Point n case. When the outkast loser who knows little about Africans and their descendants starts feeling the pressure, they immediately cop out with an argument from false authority. One can see how arbitrary his methods are. He's a closed minded troll, let him rant.
-There is no one picking a "fight" here, lol @ the importance you give to these posts. And I see the goal post being moved in every single post by your cohorts.
-Follow the thread progression, my posts state 2 things: a) Average AA does not look like the average Northern Sudanese. b) The Sudan is composed of various ethnic groups. It was in answer to specific posts. It's amusing how quick you call someone a troll who makes such radical statements like I have (very sensitive of you). Also amusing how hard you're trying to make an argument (by morping my posts) out of this non-issue and the hypocritical double-standard.
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
Northern Sudanese: the so called Arabs from Karthoum tend to look like West African and Nubians and have broader faces compare to Beja. Beja people look more like Ethiopians, Somali and Afars...As Ausar and other Africans noticed, actually many African American could pass for Northern Sudanese, because of their mixed heritage, although Northern have less Arab ancestry based on genetics compare to AA who have more European ancestry...It seems that even Farakhan mentioned once that AA shouldn't care about Southern Sudanese since the Arab Northern Sudanese were closer physically to AA.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Habari the Coo..Coo..Coo wrote:
------------------------------------ Northern Sudanese: the so called Arabs from Karthoum tend to look like West African and Nubians and have broader faces compare to Beja. Beja people look more like Ethiopians, Somali and Afars...As Ausar and other Africans noticed, actually many African American could pass for Northern Sudanese, because of their mixed heritage, although Northern have less Arab ancestry based on genetics compare to AA who have more European ancestry...It seems that even Farakhan mentioned once that AA shouldn't care about Southern Sudanese since the Arab Northern Sudanese were closer physically to AA. ------------------------------------
Your whole post is full of lies. Its not even worth responding because I saw what Farrakan said and what Ausar said. So I won't bother with expending the energy. And there are some AAs that I have seen that resemble Southern Sudanese.
Plus you seem to have a "white man is god" complex since you think that white men are responsible for AAs looking like well Africans. From what I've seen mixed breed West Africans don't look like Eastern Africans (including the so called Horners), Northern Africans, or Southern Africans. So your proclamations are seen as the jokes they are.
Where did you get that mentality Habari?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
USA wrote:
---------------- So, let me try to understand your myopic views on blackness: You think that because AA's descend from mostly Western Africa, they will on average look like any random African nationality? Let me end this post right here. ----------------
Aww poor thing. You have lot of emotional investment in your AA and west Africa yelp fest. You can "mostly" and "average" all that you want.
But Africans from Northern Africa, Southern Africa, Eastern Africa, and Western Africa mistake AAs as being one of them as well as saying they look like one of them. It doesn't happen with whites.
The historical facts and records state that AAs are descendents from the entire continent.
You can't refute the evidence, so you whine like a child.
I hope everyone is noticing what an abnormal obsession these people have with African Americans ancestry. Notice the emotional psychotic investment they have in it as if their peace of mind is at stake.
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
1.I'm not Kenyan, 2.I'm not Kikuyu. 3.Many AA look like Northern Sudanese and vice versa...Farakhan himself said it.... If he wore muslim clothes he would pass easily as an Arab Sudanese in Karthoum... Bear in mind as a Northern Arab Sudanese(AMR1) wrote in this forum, in Africa being an Arab doesn't corolate with skin color, there are Native Arab African in Central Africa, Cameroon, Nigeria. That's why it's a joke when Western media try to portray Northern Sudanese as leucoderm or non Black people...pure joke...just spend some time in Khartoum...
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Habari wrote:
----------------------- 1.I'm not Kenyan, 2.I'm not Kikuyu. 3.Many AA look like Northern Sudanese and vice versa...Farakhan himself said it.... If he wore muslim clothes he would pass easily as an Arab Sudanese in Karthoum... -----------------------
Your not worth the energy to rebuff. You're probably that loon Red, White, and Brainless.
Either way, what you are is a freak with severe psycological problems and hardly anyone on this forum has not noticed.
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
quote:But Africans from Northern Africa, Southern Africa, Eastern Africa, and Western Africa mistake AAs as being one of them as well as saying they look like one of them. It doesn't happen with whites.
Stupid statement...Africans are the most diverse people on earth...it's very easy to identify people even within the same country, whereas it's almost impossible among Europeans or European American...
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Habari wrote:
----------------------- Stupid statement...Africans are the most diverse people on earth...it's very easy to identify people even within the same country, whereas it's almost impossible among Europeans or European American... -----------------------
I know I'm not the only one seeing the above response and chuckling at its moronic incoherency. Were you trying to say something freak? Or maybe you are panicing because you've been outed as Red, White, and Brainless? Hence the nonsensical bable. : )
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
Ignored...you don't make any sense... P.S.: I appreciate your rethorical improvement...less insults and more mature posts...
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Habari wrote:
----------------------- -----------------------
When are you going to turn in those porn tapes that you rented from the video store? They're due back soon.
Posted by Habari (Member # 14738) on :
I enjoyed them too much, they stay with me...you are falling back in your mediocrity...I'm disappointed..
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
And Habari err um Red, White, and Brainless err um Loon Unlimited you are what they call a Pure D loon.
Posted by HornAfrican (Member # 14279) on :
Does it really matter what northern Sudanese look like. They are culturally, linguistically and politically Arab and there for they are Arabs. Sudan also is an Arab state in Africa like Algeria or Libya.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
So by your definition, "Arab" in terms of looks means niltch - the term is primarily culturally relevant.
Well yeah, it's true, Sudan is diverse.
But in comparison to Africa I don't see how this doesn't aply the the vast majority of Africa and other places as well for that matter.
By the way Wolofi, I'm not a Mulatto.
Since Sundiata already eagle-eyed that black and beja aspect of USA's post, I nothin else to say.
quote:Originally posted by USA: - lol @ the importance you give to these posts.
Non sequitar .. I think.
Well regardless it's a 'hush' tactic that no one, but, perhaps someone like Yonis would fall for.
Eg. Internet loser [not you]: "You're not cool if you think this or that./!"
Yonis: "I know ..." / or / "I [conformity] [yada yada]"
Me: "BITCH I'll shank/MURK you ... [crazines .. yada yada]"
quote: And I see the goal post being moved in every single post by your cohorts.
lol who are her cohorts and how are goal posts being moved?
We're all just talking about looks in Northern Sudan [North East Africa] relative to the rest of Africa. We're all [this thread] not his cohorts.
quote:-Follow the thread progression, my posts state 2 things: a) Average AA does not look like the average Northern Sudanese.
So there's an average AA -- what does he look like? ! Post a picture.
quote:b) The Sudan is composed of various ethnic groups.
We were initially talking about how "many AAs look like Northern Sudanese" .. or vice versa it might have been but whatever.
Not "most" nor any "average".
There was nothing wrong with your initial statement, just an opinion.
The statement I remember being a bit problematic was "heterogenious" which you know deals particularly with genetics and which I asked you to expound upon what you meant by that.
It could be true depending upon how you meant it.
quote:It was in answer to specific posts. It's amusing how quick you call someone a troll who makes such radical statements
lol you're being sarcastic right?
I know this is inteded for Sundiata but you haven't said anything that radical at all IMO.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Bottom Line Post.
quote:Originally posted by USA:
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: USA wrote: USA wrote:
Also I don't give a damn about on "average" because unless you know what every AA looks like, your "average" doesn't mean a thing since you don't know what every AA looks like.
I tend to take the word of Africans, African Americans, and what my own eyes tell me over the lies of a jealous troll envious of the ancestry of African Americans.
Now dry your eyes. : )
Troll? lol @ the irony,that term fits you like a tee.
true.
quote:Originally posted by USA:
think that because AA's descend from mostly Western Africa, they will on average look like any random African nationality?
actually I don't think anybody would agree with you there.
I don't think anybody has posted anything anywhere near what you have just stated there.
AAs have African and European ancestry.
Simply put, and bottom line: AAs have African (primarily West African however relevant that is to what follows:) ancestry, and people of African regions share a number of physical traits in common. Many Sudanese "Arabs" from the North look like some/many African Americans.
You said the average of one of the above don't look similar. That is fine by me. I don't really care.
However, you said:
Sudan was heterogenous, which I asked you to espound upon,
and you seemingly seperated Sudan into black, Arab, Beja, [and other?].
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habari: 1.I'm not Kenyan, 2.I'm not Kikuyu. 3.Many AA look like Northern Sudanese and vice versa...Farakhan himself said it.... If he wore muslim clothes he would pass easily as an Arab Sudanese in Karthoum... Bear in mind as a Northern Arab Sudanese(AMR1) wrote in this forum, in Africa being an Arab doesn't corolate with skin color, there are Native Arab African in Central Africa, Cameroon, Nigeria. That's why it's a joke when Western media try to portray Northern Sudanese as leucoderm or non Black people...pure joke...just spend some time in Khartoum...
LOL. They portray them as Mixed. Now I agree many of the looks are clinal and not from admixture Sahelic-Arid versus Sub-Saharan or Tropical. But there has been plenty of admixture as well. Many African Americans could pass as Northern Sudanese for this very reason. Their admixture either imitates the admixture or the clinal variation in the Sudanese population.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): So by your definition, "Arab" in terms of looks means niltch - the term is primarily culturally relevant.
Well yeah, it's true, Sudan is diverse.
But in comparison to Africa I don't see how this doesn't aply the the vast majority of Africa and other places as well for that matter.
By the way Wolofi, I'm not a Mulatto.
Since Sundiata already eagle-eyed that black and beja aspect of USA's post, I nothin else to say.
quote:Originally posted by USA: - lol @ the importance you give to these posts.
Non sequitar .. I think.
Well regardless it's a 'hush' tactic that no one, but, perhaps someone like Yonis would fall for.
Eg. Internet loser [not you]: "You're not cool if you think this or that./!"
Yonis: "I know ..." / or / "I [conformity] [yada yada]"
Me: "BITCH I'll shank/MURK you ... [crazines .. yada yada]"
quote: And I see the goal post being moved in every single post by your cohorts.
lol who are her cohorts and how are goal posts being moved?
We're all just talking about looks in Northern Sudan [North East Africa] relative to the rest of Africa. We're all [this thread] not his cohorts.
quote:-Follow the thread progression, my posts state 2 things: a) Average AA does not look like the average Northern Sudanese.
So there's an average AA -- what does he look like? ! Post a picture.
quote:b) The Sudan is composed of various ethnic groups.
We were initially talking about how "many AAs look like Northern Sudanese" .. or vice versa it might have been but whatever.
Not "most" nor any "average".
There was nothing wrong with your initial statement, just an opinion.
The statement I remember being a bit problematic was "heterogenious" which you know deals particularly with genetics and which I asked you to expound upon what you meant by that.
It could be true depending upon how you meant it.
quote:It was in answer to specific posts. It's amusing how quick you call someone a troll who makes such radical statements
lol you're being sarcastic right?
I know this is inteded for Sundiata but you haven't said anything that radical at all IMO.
-Correct, I was being sarcastic. Now let me be specific as to what formed my current personal opinion on the AA/Northern Sudanese looks comparison: Here in the Northern NJ/NYC area I have come across some Sudanese whose features were very distinct from the AA's. Based on just what I saw, they ranged in looks between looking like some of the darker Egyptians I've seen (except taller)or very dark skinned with a tall/lanky build. Thats it, there is nothing more to my personal opinion. And then I stated that AA's can look like many other Nationalities, which is true. Either some posters think all Afrodescendants look alike and/or they don't live in very diverse areas.
And what I meant by heterogeneous is that the Sudan is composed of varied ethnicities.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Bottom Line Post.
quote:Originally posted by USA:
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: USA wrote: USA wrote:
Also I don't give a damn about on "average" because unless you know what every AA looks like, your "average" doesn't mean a thing since you don't know what every AA looks like.
I tend to take the word of Africans, African Americans, and what my own eyes tell me over the lies of a jealous troll envious of the ancestry of African Americans.
Now dry your eyes. : )
Troll? lol @ the irony,that term fits you like a tee.
true.
quote:Originally posted by USA:
think that because AA's descend from mostly Western Africa, they will on average look like any random African nationality?
actually I don't think anybody would agree with you there.
I don't think anybody has posted anything anywhere near what you have just stated there.
AAs have African and European ancestry.
Simply put, and bottom line: AAs have African (primarily West African however relevant that is to what follows:) ancestry, and people of African regions share a number of physical traits in common. Many Sudanese "Arabs" from the North look like some/many African Americans.
You said the average of one of the above don't look similar. That is fine by me. I don't really care.
However, you said:
Sudan was heterogenous, which I asked you to espound upon,
and you seemingly seperated Sudan into black, Arab, Beja, [and other?].
-Heterogeneous meaning composed of diverse ethnic groups. -Yes, you are correct in that I used the most commonly cited (but not precise)breakdown of Black/Arab/Beja/Other as an example of the diversity. -Another poster pointed out that the Beja are black Yes, I do agree that the breakdown is simplistic and not entirely correct, but that was not meant as an exhaustive detailed breakdown of the different groups populating the Sudan.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
^^USA. I disagreed with some of your ideas, but now admit that I may have misinterpreted some of them. My apologies.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Keebler err um Jeeves, I know that you said this in hopes that he will loan you some money in order to fix your teeth, but he owes child support and so no dice. hahahaheeeeeeee!!!!
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Keebler Teeth aka Alive-(What Box) wrote: ------------------------------------------ AAs have African and European ancestry.
Simply put, and bottom line: AAs have African (primarily West African however relevant that is to what follows:) ------------------------------------------
Sorry Keebler Teeth, the historical record and documented facts say otherwise. LOL : )
Now either you can refute the below or keep your spooky mouth shut. ahahaahahahaa!
jwsr.ucr.edu/archive/vol5/number1/v5n1r1.php (east african slaves in new york)
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Now, let me be specific:
Well, as long as you don't think AAs all look a certain way, and don't have mixture of their own (more than Sudanese).
I guess some of us are quick to catch one another.
Really you (in general) could think African Americans all look like Peter pan or Kermit the frog for all I care.
Thing is you can usually spot agents of ideology, particularly raciallist ideology and particularly folks with a painful past closely related with the particular ideology.
How they are spotted is enclosed in asterisks at the end of this post.
Here is my theory about where most agents come from:
[url=]Probably for reasons havgin to do with insecurity, in Europe, there was a back-lash against blacks as soon as they aquired hands (their own political sovereignty coupled with actual millitary and naval power) they changed their attitudes regarding Africans (from Greeks in the East to the imperial West Europeans headed by Spain) and not only directed a large amount of their attention and energy towards 'blacks' and Africa but surmised a number of myths and epithets concering 'non whites' and Africans.[/url]
Well, I'm not a victim-ist and know that racism slavery the way it was practiced in America among other things were avoidable mistakes that simply developed rather than were inevitable (certainly with the millitary/industrial economic sitch in Europe and West/North/and South Africa in the 15th Century there would've been no imposing of the wills with regard to African manual labor/servitude for sale. They sold us, though slavery there wasn't as it would evolve into (and to its limit) in the Americas.
******************************************************* The Beef:
Myths and epithets were directed primarily towards African Americans designated as "blacks" whom they put at odds with their own image, needless to say it bothers AGENTS of this out-dated ideology for anything positive to be associated with "black".
Since across Africa, we have, quite a number ancient Kingdoms, other forms of autonomous sovereign and un-sovereign polities and other forms of societies of antiquety, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT AROSE IN THE SAHARA AND NILE VALLEY, this would obviously bother them that they'd be seen as 'black'. And to the point, from my experience EVERY time we have someone on here spacklin off about Afro Americans (when they weren't brought up and don't know any of our identities - I'm talking about when this was a descent forum) and then: doing the same about blacks, making ad-hominems about "blacks", or starting non-sequitars about "blacks this" or "blacks that" - they end up revealing themselves for their agenda or modus-operundi they already revealed in their words by revealing either a use, reliance on or especially belief in the bankrupt low-level kindergarten-type (basically, bewilderingly stupid or laughed at in the scholarly world) sources, or a failure to comprehend [accept] data and objective modes of data gathering. You don't seem to be that way. *************************************************************
If not, why then when they found and stole the art of the Ife and Yoruba cultures did they claim they must have been (impossibly) works of whites? Aryan Zulus, Martian (green) ancient Kemet, Eskimo Kemet (Kemet is ancient Egypt), to mythic Nordic invasions being the cause for Indian "civilizations" (word implying great society and culture), East Asian ones, Central/South American ones, and even invasions sparking the Nile Valley culture that started before their group existed (that is if there is a connection between them and the ancient Nile, it's Nile inhabitant admixture in THEM)!
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Chimu wrote:
---------------------- ----------------------
Just adding some much need scholarship to this thread. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!
jwsr.ucr.edu/archive/vol5/number1/v5n1r1.php (east african slaves in new york)
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104:
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): You're a biatch.
So basically you're saying that the majority of African Americans didn't go to slavery via West Africa?
I'll check the links later but I want to make sure that's what you're saying..
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
No Keebler, I'm saying they came from all over Africa. Which no one can refute.
In case you haven't heard the Hamitic Theory is discredited. No white man is responsible for Africans looking like Africans. Unfortunately your dumb ass believes just that (the white man is responsible for African diversity).
Which is funny because they can't even get their dicks up without Viagra, Cialis, etc. Hell they can't even populate their own continent, which is why they're bringing in every non-white population on the planet, so Europe will stay populated.
But the important questions you should ask yourself is why do give the white man "God Status" and why are you so desperate to have slavery designated as exclusive to West Africans?
Now where are my h'orderves.
BWHAHAHAAAARRRRGHAHAHA!!
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: I'm saying they came from all over Africa.
Which no one initially disagreed with. Perhaps "USA" did but I didn't just now.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Results 1 - 2 of 2 for "slaves from northern africa" americas Results 1 - 55 of 55 for america "berber slaves". Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 143 for "slaves from southern africa"
Sorry Rastafarians did not come from Ethiopia. LMAO
The Berber slaves that were captured by the Spanish were minimal. And between 1400 to 1900 the Majority of slaves came in this order of volume
He feebly attempts to counter documented history from historians themselves with 1 economics professor from British Columbia.
Po, Po thang you're too dumb to even see how moronic you are.
Historical facts from historians vs 1 economics professor from british columbia. LOL!
And the thing is, this economics professor is obviously on the lower end of the scholarship spectrum since his historical references are astonishingly insufficient. See the links that I provided. If I could find them, then why couldn't he? LOL
One has to wonder how he got his job, via a Legacy program. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Have good nights rest Chimu. : )
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
LOL at Taco Tim's attempt to interject race loon forum pseudoscience into history.
For the numbskulls out there, look at the countries that he has in his list and notice the countries that he left off his list. heeeeeeee!!!
But should one be surpised? This is the same fool that thought that the modern day country of Ethiopia was the same as the region known as Ethiopia in ancient times.
Pseudoscience can't beat history, it just can't. : )
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: blah, blah, blah
As usual argyle has nothing substantive to prove anyone wrong.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Chimu aka Taco Tim wrote:
----------------------------- My argument has been completely discredited with historical facts. So now I'm crying. -----------------------------
Sorry diversions won't work. Only scholarly refutation of historical facts will do.
Have a good nights rest loon. : )
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^^USA. I disagreed with some of your ideas, but now admit that I may have misinterpreted some of them. My apologies.
No problem
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Historical fact of what? That some slaves came from north Africa? LOL That was never debated. The point is how many. Your source presents no numbers. Try again.
Posted by USA (Member # 15085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: I'm saying they came from all over Africa.
Which no one initially disagreed with. Perhaps "USA" did but I didn't just now.
No I did not (check my posts) I essentially said the same thing you said.
All sources I've read so far state that the majority of the Africans slaves that were shipped to the New World were from the Western Coast of Africa (starting from the Senegambian region down to Angola)and some from the Congo & Mozambique.
As far as I know, Brazil received a good amount of Angolans,Mozambiquens & Congolese. The USA received the majority from West Africa. If anyone has any good sources that indicate that slaves from other African regions were imported into the USA, than I'd be greatly interested in seeing these.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
USA aka Habari aka Red, White and Brainless wrote:
jwsr.ucr.edu/archive/vol5/number1/v5n1r1.php (east african slaves in new york)
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Now that I recall it seemed the original topic was that Northern Sundanese look like "the average Black African".
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Alive-(What Box) aka Jeeves wrote:
quote: Now that I recall it seemed the original topic was that Northern Sundanese look like "the average Black African".
So you posted to a thread that hadn't had any posts in a WEEK just to say the above?
Seriously Jeeves, where do you get all of this free time? I mean the other day I saw where you bumped up a 4 year old post. I repeat people a 4 year old post. It must have taken an eternity to scroll through that many thread pages.
I know that you say you live in Yompton, but you can't be this pitiful.
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! Post a picture.