While researching Minoan DNA, I happened across this story, which I later found, had been propagated all over the Internet. From my own knowledge of Cretan/Minoan history, I recognized it right away as an attempt by White people to further propagate the lie of White people creating the Cretan-Minoan/Mycenaean/Greek civilizations (in that order).
The Story:
Ekathimerini.com English Edition - Greece's International English Language Newspaper Exclusively available inside The International Herald Tribune in Greece and Cyprus
NEWS STORY - 03/04/2008
DNA sheds light on Minoans
Crete’s fabled Minoan civilization was built by people from Anatolia, according to a new study by Greek and foreign scientists that disputes an earlier theory that said the Minoans’ forefathers had come from Africa.
The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.
The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.
The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.
“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.
I have never heard of scholars, much less scholars from such prestigious Universities - (Stanford University (USA) - Istanbul University (Turkey) - McMaster University (Canada) - Aristotle University (Greece) - Russian Academy of Sciences (Russia) - and University of Crete (Greece). Responding to a BOOK by doing a genetic study. Of course, we are all aware that the book "Black Athena" asserts that the ancient Cretans, thus the ancient Mycenaeans and original Greeks were Blacks. (It's not like he grabbed this assertion out of thin air - there is a wealth of ancient artifacts which show the ancient Cretans to be Black people).
Note: I have not read the book, as I indicated, I do my own research. So if my references to the book are not right-on, please excuse me.
As I said, I recognized it right-away as an attempted cover-up, so I immediately set about compiling data to refute it. But at the same time, all the while that I was doing this: I was wondering why they did it. After all, they allowed this study.....
"The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study Cristiano Vernesi,1 David Caramelli,2 Isabelle Dupanloup,1,* Giorgio Bertorelle,1 Martina Lari,2 Enrico Cappellini,2 Jacopo Moggi-Cecchi,2 Brunetto Chiarelli,2 Loredana Castrì,3 Antonella Casoli,4 Francesco Mallegni,5 Carles Lalueza-Fox,6 and Guido Barbujani1"
To be published, and that study concluded that the "Etruscans" the original people of Italy, and thus the founders of Roman civilization, were Black people. So why are they making such a fuss about the Cretan-Minoan/Mycenaean/Greek civilizations?
The answer lays in statements like this:
Quote: "The story of European civilization really begins on the island of Crete, the Minoans stand at the very beginning of European civilization. While Europeans had known about the pre-Homeric world through the poems of Homer, only the Greeks and Romans seem to have taken these poems seriously as history. That pre-Homeric world, however, was lost in the haze of generations of oral story-telling before it finally got fixed in the poems of Homer."
So apparently the logic is; we can give-up the Etruscans - they only relate to the Romans. But if we give-up Crete, then we can make no claim to a White presence in ancient Europe, and thus no claim to ANY ancient European civilization. Seems like reasonable logic, so lets see what's what.
A Summary of the study on Wiki
Crete
In 2007, a team of researchers from Stanford University (USA), Istanbul University (Turkey), McMaster University (Canada), Aristotle University (Greece), Russian Academy of Sciences (Russia), and University of Crete (Greece) researched the genetics of the Neolithic founder population of Crete, the ancient Minoan inhabitants of Crete, and their Mycenaean neighbors from mainland Greece.
Their research was published in the March 2008 issue of the Annals of Human Genetics. While based on modern populations in Crete (193 samples) and Greece (171 samples), and previously published data on Anatolian (Turkish) populations, the researchers projected backwards in time to make conclusions about the ancient origins of these people groups. The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia. Specifically, the researchers connected the source population of ancient Crete to well known Neolithic sites of ancient Anatolia: Asıklı Höyük, Çatalhöyük, Hacılar, Mersin/Yumuktepe, and Tarsus. Haplogroup J2b-M12 (Crete: 3.1%; Greece: 5.9%) was associated with Neolithic Greece. Haplogroups J2a1h-M319 (8.8%) and J2a1b1-M92 (2.6%) were associated with the Minoan culture linked to a late Neolithic/ Early Bronze Age migration to Crete ca. 3100 BCE from North-Western/Western Anatolia and Syro-Palestine (ancient Canaan, Levant, and pre-Akkadian Anatolia); Aegean prehistorians link the date 3100 BCE to the origins of the Minoan culture on Crete. Haplogroup E3b1a2-V13 (Crete: 6.7%; Greece: 28%) was suggested to reflect a migration to Crete from the mainland Greece Mycenaean population during the late Bronze Age (1600 BCE - 1100 BCE). Haplogroup J1 was also reported to be found in both Crete and Greece (Crete: 8.3%; Greece: 5.2%), as well as haplogroups E3b3, I1, I2, I2a, I21b, K2, L, and R1a1. No ancient DNA was included in this study of YDNA from the Mediterranean region.
The ancient populations and haplogroups of Crete are very significant in relation to the ancient people group known from the biblical literature as the Philistines who are thought to have originated from one of the ancient populations of Crete and were believed by ancient ethnographers to be closely related to people groups from North-Western Anatolia (Ludites, Hebrew: לודים), and people groups from other regions, and more distantly, but related to ancient Egyptians. As to the origins of the Philistines archaeologists have proposed two theories of their route of migration as one people group among many associated with the Sea Peoples. The first is that of an Anatolian (ancient Turkey) origin into the Mediterranean region and Levant. The second is an origin from the region of the Mycenaean culture via the Mediterranean to Crete, Cyprus, and various locations in the Levant and North Africa. The Philistines were not thought to have originated from mainland Greece according to the ancient ethnographers.
From the bolded items above, we already know that this study is an awkward attempt at lie telling. But since they stupidly admitted that they were looking at the MODERN people of Crete, Greece, and Turkey, let's look at the CURRENT people of Crete, Greece, and Turkey, and see who they are, and where they came from.
In DE-constructing this lie posing as a scientific study, lets first look at Greece.
Note: The following material comes from the Encyclopedia, it is written by White people, so of course there is a certain amount of inaccuracy built in.
Greece - Historical overview Greece was inhabited as early as the Paleolithic period. Prior to the 2nd millennium BC, the Greek peninsula was inhabited by various pre-Hellenic peoples, the most notable of which were the Pelasgians. The Greek language ultimately dominated the peninsula and Greece's mosaic of small city-states became culturally similar. The population estimates on the Greeks during the 4th century BC, is approximately 3.5 million on the Greek peninsula and 4 to 6.5 million in the entire Mediterranean Basin, including all colonies such as those in Magna Graecia, Asia Minor and the shores of the Black Sea. During the history of the Byzantine Empire, the Greek peninsula was occasionally invaded by the foreign peoples like Goths, Avars, Slavs, Normans, Franks and other Romance-speaking peoples who had betrayed the Crusades. The only group, however, which planned to establish permanent settlements in the region were the Slavs. They supposedly settled in isolated valleys of the Peloponnese and Thessaly, establishing segregated communities that were referred by the Byzantines as Sclaveni. However, traces of Slavic culture in Greece are very rare. Yet, by the 9th century, the Sclaveni in Greece were largely eliminated. The populations in central and southern Greece were the subject of population exchanges and army recruitments, but some Slavic communities managed to survive in rural Macedonia. At the same time a large Sephardi Jewish emigrant community from the Iberian peninsula established itself in Thessaloniki, while there were population movements of Arvanites and Vlachs, who established communities in several parts of the Greek peninsula. The Byzantine Empire ultimately fell to Ottoman Turks in the 15th century and as a result Ottoman colonies were established in the Balkans, notably in Macedonia, the Peloponnese and Crete. Many Greeks either fled to other European nations or to geographically isolated areas (i.e. mountains and heavily forested territories) in order to escape foreign rule. For those reasons, the population decreased in the plains, while increasing on the mountains. The population transfers with Bulgaria and Turkey that took place in the early 20th century, added in total some two million Greeks from to the demography of the Greek Kingdom.
Above we see mention of the original "pre-Hellenic peoples" so who were the "Hellenic" peoples who got there after them?
The Greeks, also known as Hellenes; Proto-Greek would have been spoken in the late 3rd millennium BC, most probably in the Balkans. The unity of Proto-Greek would have ended as Hellenic migrants, speaking the predecessor of the Mycenaean language, entered the Greek peninsula either around the 21st century BC, or in the 17th century BC at the latest. They were separated from the Dorian Greeks, who entered the peninsula roughly one millennium later (see Dorian invasion, Greek Dark Ages), speaking a dialect that had in some respects remained more archaic.
Close similarities between Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit suggest that both Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian were still quite similar to either late Proto-Indo-European, which would place the latter somewhere in the late 4th millennium BC, or a post-PIE Graeco-Aryan proto-language. Graeco-Aryan has little support among linguists, since both geographical and temporal distribution of Greek and Indo-Iranian fit well with the Kurgan hypothesis of Proto-Indo-European.
I don't know about you, but already I am beginning to wonder what in the world these people, who clearly immigrated into the area relatively LATELY, could possibly have in common with the ancient Cretans/Minoans who began civilization on Crete from about 8,000 B.C.
Now let's look at modern Crete.
In the Classical and Hellenistic period (about 330 B.C.) Crete fell into a pattern of combative city-states, harboring pirates. Gortyn, Kydonia (Chania) and Lyttos challenged the primacy of ancient Knossos, preyed upon one another, invited into their feuds mainland powers like Macedon and its rivals Rhodes and Ptolemaic Egypt, a situation that all but invited Roman interference. Ierapytna (Ierapetra) gained supremacy on eastern Crete.
Crete continued to be part of the Eastern Roman or Byzantine empire, a quiet cultural backwater, until it fell into the hands of Iberian Muslims (see Abo Hafs Omer Al-Baloty) in 824, who established an emirate on the island. The archbishop of Gortyn (Cyril) was assassinated and the city so thoroughly devastated it was never reoccupied. Candia (Heraklion), a city built by the Iberian Muslims, was made capital of the island instead.
In 960 Nicephorus Phocas reconquered Crete for the Byzantines, who held it until 1204, when it fell into the hands of the Venetians at the time of the Fourth Crusade. The Venetians retained the island until 1669, when the Ottoman Turks took possession of it. In the partition of the Byzantine empire after the capture of Constantinople by the armies of the Fourth Crusade in 1204, Crete was eventually acquired by Venice, which held it for more than four centuries. During Venetian rule, the Greek population of Crete was exposed to Renaissance culture. A thriving literature in the Cretan dialect of Greek developed on the island. The best-known work from this period is the poem Erotokritos by Vitsentzos Kornaros (Βιτσένζος Κορνάρος). Another major literary figure is Georgios Hortatzis, author of the dramatic work Erophile. The painter Domenicos Theotocopoulos, better known as El Greco, was born in Crete in this period and was trained in Byzantine iconography before moving to Italy and later, Spain.
During the 17th century, Venice was pushed out of Crete by the Ottoman Empire, with most of the island lost after the siege of Candia (1648–1669), possibly the longest siege in history. The last Venetian outpost on the island, Spinalonga, fell in 1718, and Crete was a part of the Ottoman Empire for the next two centuries. There were significant rebellions against Ottoman rule, particularly in Sfakia. Daskalogiannis was a famous rebel leader.
One result of the Ottoman conquest was that a sizeable proportion of the population gradually converted to Islam, with its tax and other civic advantages in the Ottoman system. Contemporary estimates vary, but on the eve of the Greek War of Independence as much as 45% of the population of the island may have been Muslim.[2] Some of them were crypto-Christians who converted back to Christianity; others fled Crete because of the unrest. By the last Ottoman census in 1881, Christians were 76% of the population, and Muslims (usually called "Turks" regardless of language, culture, and ancestry) only 24%. Christians were over 60% of the population in 19/23 of the districts of Crete, but Muslims were over 60% in the three large towns on the north coast, and in Monofatsi.
Again: I don't know about you, but already I am beginning to wonder what in the world these people, who clearly immigrated into the area relatively LATELY, could possibly have with the ancient Cretans/Minoans who began civilization on Crete from about 8,000 B.C.
Finally, let's look at Turkey (ancient Anatolia)
Demographics of Turkey The word Turk or Turkish also has a wider meaning in a historical context because, at times, especially in the past, it has been used to refer to all Muslim inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire irrespective of their ethnicity. The question of ethnicity in modern Turkey is a highly debated and difficult issue. Figures published in several different sources prove this difficulty by varying greatly.
It is necessary to take into account all these difficulties and be cautious while evaluating the ethnic groups. A possible list of ethnic groups living in Turkey could be as follows: 1. Turkic-speaking peoples: Karakalpaks, Turkmens, Kazakhs, Kumyks, Yörüks, Uzbeks, Crimean Tatars, Azeris, Balkars, Uyghurs, Karachays. 2. Indo-European-speaking peoples: Kurds, Zazas, Armenians, Hamshenis, Greeks 3. Semitic-speaking peoples: Arabs, Jews, and Assyrians 4. Caucasian-speaking peoples: Georgians, Lazs, Circassians, and Chechens 5. Other Muslim groups originally from the Balkans (Bulgarians, Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croats, Romanians and Bosniaks): These people migrated to Anatolia during the Ottoman Era and have been assumed to accept Turkish-Muslim identity. 6. Cossacks in Turkey (mostly left Turkey by 1962) 7. Others: There are small groups and individuals from all over the world living in Turkey, either remnants of past migrations (there is for instance a village near the Bosphorus named Adampol in Polish, Polonezköy, "the Polish village", in Turkish) or witnesses of contemporary mass migrations towards the European Union and its periphery (there are also illegal migrants camps with thousands of Africans and others intercepted while trying to embark, or swimming from the wreckage of overpopulated small boats, for the Greek or Italian shores).
Proving the difficulty of classifying the ethnicities of the population of Turkey, there are as many classifications as the number of scientific attempts to make these classifications. Turkey is not unique in this respect; many other European countries (e.g. France, Germany) also bear a great ethnic diversity that defies classification. The immense variation observed in the published figures for the percentages of Turkish people living in Turkey (ranging from 75 to 97%) simply reflects differences in the methods used to classify the ethnicities, with a main factor being the choice of whether to exclude or include Kurds. Complicating the matter even more is the fact that the last official and country-wide classification of spoken languages (which do not exactly coincide with ethnic groups) in Turkey was performed in 1965; many of the figures published after that time are very loose estimates.
According to a 2008 report prepared for the National Security Council of Turkey by academics of three Turkish universities in eastern Anatolia, there were approximately 50 to 55 million ethnic Turks, 12,5 million Kurds (including 3 million Zazas), 2,5 million Circassians (Adige), 2 million Bosniaks, 1,3 million Albanians, 1 million Georgians, 870,000 Arabs, 700,000 Roma, 600,000 Pomaks, 80,000 Laz, 60,000 Armenians, 20,000 Jews, 15,000 Greeks and 13,000 Hemshins living in Turkey
Some ambiguity exists with reference to Turkic ethnicity. The Oğuz people (western branch of the wider Turkic peoples) began arriving in the region as mercenary soldiers under the Abassid caliphs over a thousand years ago. Their origins were in the Altay region (across the boundary of modern day Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia and China). The features of these original Turks were mainly mongoloid or a mongoloid-caucasoid mixture and there is substantial evidence that the Native American peoples share the same roots. The Oghuz became substantially mixed during their westward migrations, with Persians, Armenians and other Caucasian peoples. The Oğuz people, which once constituted the majority of the reigning fraction of Turkic people in Anatolia, gained political, cultural and military dominance in the region but remained for centuries only a small part of the population, demographically speaking. Anatolia, which was formerly a part of many civilizations like the Hittites and the Byzantine Empire, was (and still is) an ethnically very mixed region where the last official religion was Greek Orthodox, but there are also adherents of other Christian churches or "deviant" Christian or syncretist movements, as well as Jews. The Turkic migrations were not only westwards, but also south into India, China and Afghanistan, north into Siberia and east into Korea (although some sources contest this). The wider Turkic peoples therefore represent one of the most widely distributed ethnicities in the world. Other non-Ottoman Turkic tribes are present in Turkey and include the Karakalpaks, Turkmens, Kazakhs, Kumyks, Uzbeks, Tatars, Azeris, Balkars, Uyghurs, Karachays, Nogai and Kyrgyz, mostly the result of modern migrations from the former Soviet Union.
Kurds Main article: Kurds in Turkey Although the Turks were largely successful in their cultural domination and assimilation of many subject peoples in their empire, the Kurdish identity remains the strongest of the many minorities in modern Turkey. This is perhaps due to the mountainous terrain of the south-east of the country, where they predominate and perhaps represent a majority. They inhabit all major towns and cities across Turkey, however. No accurate up-to-date figures are available for the Kurdish population, because the Turkish government has outlawed ethnic or racial censuses. Though some estimates such as the CIA World Factbook place their population at approximately 20%. Another estimate, according to Ibrahim Sirkeci, an ethnic Turk, in his book The Environment of Insecurity in Turkey and the Emigration of Turkish Kurds to Germany, based on the 1990 Turkish Census and 1993 Turkish Demographic Health Survey, is 17.8%.
The Minority Rights Group report of 1985 (by Martin Short and Anthony McDermott) gave an estimate of 19% Kurds in the population of Turkey in 1980, i.e. 8,455,000 out of 44,500,000, with the preceding comment 'Nothing, apart from the actual 'borders' of Kurdistan, generates as much heat in the Kurdish question as the estimate of the Kurdish population. Kurdish nationalists are tempted to exaggerate it, and governments of the region to understate it. In Turkey only those Kurds who do not speak Turkish are officially counted for census purposes as Kurds, yielding a very low figure.'. In Turkey: A Country Study, a 1995 on-line publication of the U.S. Library of Congress, there is a whole chapter about Kurds in Turkey where it is stated that 'Turkey's censuses do not list Kurds as a separate ethnic group. Consequently, there are no reliable data on their total numbers. In 1995 estimates of the number of Kurds in Turkey ranged from 6 million to 12 million.' out of 61.2 million, which means from 10 to 20%. And a higher percentage (between 20 and 25%) can be found elsewhere in various sources. Kurdish national identity is far from being limited to the Kurmanji language community, as many Kurds whose parents migrated towards Istanbul or other large non-Kurdish cities mostly speak Turkish, which is one of the languages used by the Kurdish nationalist publications.
Assyrians Main article: Assyrians/Syriacs in Turkey Around 20,000 Assyrians lives in Turkey. Ca 2,500 in Tur Abdin and 15,000 in Istanbul. The rest lives in Adiyaman, Diyarbakir, Kharput, Ankara and other places of Turkey. These numbers are the usual to read and hear in the Assyrian Diaspora Media. Today, no Assyrian is left in Hakkari and Urhoy (Urfa). The Assyrians of Turkey belong to different religious backgrounds, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Protestant Church, Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian Church of the East. The Mhalmites, who usually are described as Arabs, have Assyrian ancestry. They live in the area between Mardin and Midyat, called in Syriac "I Mhalmayto" (ܗܝ ܡܚܠܡܝܬܐ). Circassians Towards the end of the Russian-Circassian War (1763–1864) many Circassians fled their homelands in the Caucasus and settled in the Ottoman Empire. Today there is still a considerable Circassian population, estimated to constitute 5% of the total population, or over 3 million.
Lazs Main article: Laz people Most Lazs today live in Turkey, but the Laz minority group has no official status in Turkey. Their number today is estimated to be around 500,000. and 1.5 million. Most of the Laz are Sunni Muslims. They are typically bilingual in Turkish and their native Laz language, which belongs to the South Caucasian group. The number of the Laz speakers is decreasing, however, and is now limited chiefly to the Rize and Artvin areas. The historical term Lazistan – formerly referring to a narrow tract of land along the Black Sea inhabited by the Laz as well as by several other ethnic groups – has been banned from official use and replaced with Doًu Karadeniz (which also includes Trabzon). During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877–1878, the Muslim population of Russia near the war zones was subjected to ethnic cleansing; many Lazs living in Georgia fled to the Ottoman Empire, settling along the southern Black Sea coast to the east of Samsun.
Others (Christians) An exception is the Hamshenis, Armenians who converted to Islam in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries but still keep some pre-Islamic traditions and retain the use of two distinct Armenian dialects. Their Laz neighbours name them "Ermeni," the Turkish term for Armenians. There are also some Pontic Greek Muslims. Among the Black Sea Turkish intellectuals, there has been in the last few years a revival of interest for the forgotten ethnic and religious identities of their ancestors. The research by ضzhan ضztürk, but also the books of ضmer Asan and Selma Koçiva, are good illustrations at this trend. There have also been, through the XIXth and XXth centuries and still nowadays, rumors of the existence, mostly in rural and small town areas, of large populations of Crypto-Christians and Crypto-Jews, notably among the Dِnme, descendants of Sabbatai Zevi's followers who had to convert en masse following Zevi's example. Islam spread slowly over many generations either through voluntary or forced conversions; many poor families chose to become Muslims in order to escape a special tax levied on conquered millet peoples or for reasons of upward mobility. Another common motivation was to escape the dev؛irme system for recruiting Janissaries to the Ottoman forces, and the similar institution of using dhimmi children to serve as odalisques or kِçeks in the Ottoman harems or as tellaks in the hammams. Conversion to Islam was usually accompanied by the adoption of the Ottoman-Turkish language and identity and eventual acceptance into the mainstream population, because conversion was generally irreversible and resulted in ostracism from the original ethnic group.
Soooo, anybody see any mention in the current Turkish people above, of the ORIGINAL people of Turkey/Anatolia. Such as the Hatti, Phrygians, Urartuians, Hurri, Hayk, Mitanni?
Now let's summarize what we have going on:
Martin Bernal wrote a book called "Black Athena" which said that these people...
The ancient Minoans of Crete, were Black Africans.
And in order to dis-prove that, a group of White scientist did a DNA study on these people...
Some modern-day Greek children.
INSTEAD of extracting DNA from these people.
An ancient Black Greek.
And they took DNA from these people....
Some modern Cretan men.
INSTEAD of extracting DNA from these people.
Ancient Minoan Above.
And they took DNA from these people....
A modern-day Turkish couple.
INSTEAD of extracting DNA from these people.
Ancient Anatolian Woman.
Or, INSTEAD of extracting DNA from this King.
To prove that it wasn't so.
Does that make sense to anybody? They say that desperation makes you do strange things. But the absurdity of this study, takes gall to new heights.
The final absurdity of this absurd study, is that they came to the same conclusion that every other serious scientist had already come to; that is, that the Ancient Minoans of Crete came from Anatolia. The difference being that these people were trying to say that there were White people in ancient Anatolia. That assertion is of course dis-proved by all serious genetic studies, and common sense itself. Since whites didn't begin arriving in Europe until about 1,200 B.C. (see the Kurgan hypothesis), how could they possibly be the ancestors of any of the original European or Middle Eastern civilizations.
But as is obvious from the photo above, Martin Bernal has the last laugh. The question is NOT whether or not the Minoans of Crete were Black, of course they were Black. Rather, the question is WHICH group of Blacks were they. Were the Black Anatolian's, Africans who migrated up through the Levant into Anatolia, or were they descendants of the African Grimaldi, Who was the first modern humans in Europe, and who had entered Europe at Gibraltar at about 45,000 B.C.
Web link for the study
Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic
I have never heard of scholars, much less scholars from such prestigious Universities - (Stanford University (USA) - Istanbul University (Turkey) - McMaster University (Canada) - Aristotle University (Greece) - Russian Academy of Sciences (Russia) - and University of Crete (Greece). Responding to a BOOK by doing a genetic study, much less, a book by a Black man.
Damn Mike, you think everybody is Black!
Martin Bernal:
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Like I said, I never read the book, I just assumed that he was Black. Thank you, I will correct.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^^^That's pretty sad, that we still need White people to "take-up" for us and to educate us about ourselves. Very sad indeed.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
God damn it Mike. lol
You don't know who Bernal is or what he actually argues do you?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: God damn it Mike. lol
You don't know who Bernal is or what he actually argues do you?
I think that I said in at least two places that I did not read the book, and no, I don't know a thing about him.
I was neither defending him or his book, I was defending the truth of Minoans being Black. I take it that is a little too complicated for you?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
If you never read the book, why did you make this statement, "Of course, we are all aware that the book "Black Athena" asserts that the ancient Cretans, thus the ancient Mycenaeans and original Greeks were Blacks."?
How do you know what it "asserts"?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: If you never read the book, why did you make this statement, "Of course, we are all aware that the book "Black Athena" asserts that the ancient Cretans, thus the ancient Mycenaeans and original Greeks were Blacks."?
How do you know what it "asserts"?
From the newspaper article above.
Quote: The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.
Additionally; the book has been discussed on this forum and in many other places. It really is complicated for you, isn't it.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^That's what happens when you chase straws because Bernal never made that contention. It's the first thing that I thought when reading that specific quote.
Mike, you sure do some sloppy work. If I were you, I'd scrap the copy and paste method and actually start getting my hands dirty by reading material from the people and theories I choose to discuss.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Martin Bernals black. You just don't have his DNA test to prove his E-Haplogroup origin.
He is either E3A or E3B. Never, never never let colour decieve you.
He may be temperate adapted (apologies to Rasshole) but his DNA is Black (apologies to the Robot).
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^That's what happens when you chase straws because Bernal never made that contention. It's the first thing that I thought when reading that specific quote.
Mike, you sure do some sloppy work. If I were you, I'd scrap the copy and paste method and actually start getting my hands dirty by reading material from the people and theories I choose to discuss.
Sundjata: Would you care to explain what you said above?
Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Volume 1) (Paperback)
Winner of the American Book Award and a Socialist Review Book Award What is classical about Classical Civilization? In one of the most audacious works of scholarship ever written, Martin Bernal challenges the whole basis of our thinking about this question. Classical civilization, he argues, has deep roots in Afroasiatic cultures. But these Afroasiatic influences have been systematically ignored, denied, or supressed since the eighteenth century--chiefly for racist reasons. The popular view is that Greek civilization was the result of the conquest of a sophisticated but weak native population by vigorous Indo-European speakers--or Aryans--from the North.
But the Classical Greeks, Bernal argues, knew nothing of this "Aryan model." They did not see their political institutions, science, philosophy, or religion as original, but rather as derived from the East in general, and Egypt in particular. Black Athena is a three-volume work. Volume 1 concentrates on the crucial period between 1785 and 1850, which saw the Romantic and racist reaction to the Enlightment and the French Revolution, and the consolidation of Northern expansion into other continents. In an unprecedented tour de force, Bernal makes meaningful links between a wide range of areas and disciplines--drama poetry, myth, theological controversy, esoteric religion, philosophy, biography, language, historical narrative, and the emergence of "modern scholarship." Martin Bernal is Professor Emeritus of Government Studies at Cornell University; he was formerly a Fellow at King's College, Cambridge.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Bernal is a white Jew. He does not argue that the first Greeks were black. Take Captain America's advice and read him.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: Bernal is a white Jew. He does not argue that the first Greeks were black. Take Captain America's advice and read him.
I argue that the above study was bogus and proved it. As I said, the book and author are immaterial. But since the two of you (akoben: Sundjata) want to make an issue of the book, then please tell us all, what does it say that is different from the title and caption of the book as posted above?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
The only thing you "proved" is that your knowledge extends to book back covers and bizarre interpretations of what you cut and paste from the net.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
Mike, you sure do some sloppy work. If I were you, I'd scrap the copy and paste method and actually start getting my hands dirty by reading material from the people and theories I choose to discuss.
Sundjata: Since you seem to be having difficulty answering the previous question above, here is an easier one for you.
When compiling and posting material from different sources; since you deplore the cut and paste method, what is your preferred method?
And just one more question: Since you find my work "Sloppy" perhaps you would care to show me some of your work, so that I might know how it's done.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: The only thing you "proved" is that your knowledge extends to book back covers and bizarre interpretations of what you cut and paste from the net.
Ah ha - I knew it, I was just waiting for you to confirm it! You ignorant little piece of worthless sh1t masquerading as a Black ghetto kid. You have no clue as to what is in the book, the closest you have ever come or will ever come to that book or any other book, is to see it in the store window.
But yet, true to form with your type, you just had to find something to say. I didn't matter that you had no clue about what you were talking about, just so you got to say something. Well congratulations, you got to say something. Now go away.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Ahmm...ok Mikey, where does Bernal say the original Greeks were black people? Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: Ahmm...ok Mikey, where does Bernal say the original Greeks were black people?
I think - no - I know that you are confused. I never said that he said anything. As a matter of fact, I have said many times that I have NOT read the book. I was clearly referencing quotes of what he "supposedly" said, such as in the book caption above, this also was made clear. Keeping track of all of this is clearly too much for you, why not just play a nice game of Pac Man.
BTW - Why not try to find a little part-time job so that you can get the money to buy the book. Then you will KNOW what he said. Just don't get the money by Mugging any little old ladies - please!
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
"Of course, we are all aware that the book "Black Athena" asserts that the ancient Cretans, thus the ancient Mycenaeans and original Greeks were Blacks."
^ That certainly looked like you were giving the impression you knew what he was asserting. We all know your theory, Mike, and again Bernal doesn't argue it so his book is irrelevant to your agenda. Bernal argues for "Afroasiatic influences" he does not say they were black people or it was a black civilisation. He doesn't even define ancient Egypt as such! In relation to the "findings" re the peopling and origins of Greek civilisation the study is distorting what Bernal actually argues and elevating his importance in the area, unjustifiably so. Bernal was simply building on what others have long discussed. Read for example Diop's book Civilisation or Barbarism or Van Sertima's African presence in Early Europe. Save up some money and buy the books or go to the library. You're wasting your time with crack pot internet sites.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^That's what happens when you chase straws because Bernal never made that contention.
Posted by Warepanman (Member # 16060) on :
Akoben is right. Y'all are being played. The actual study says nothing bout Martin Bernal or "black Cretans." That whole part is bogus, appearing on "Matilda's" website as if it were an actual quote from the study. It fact it is a paraphrase by some web troll called "Kathimerini" whose been spamming it all over. Note on the website that the so called Greek scientist told "Kathimerini" about Bernal.
The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia - modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria - and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal. The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.
The actual study has nothing of the sort. Its all bogus. Unable to deny the African influences in Crete, Matilda is using sleight of hand now, passing the write-up off to imply it is an actual quote, but its a bogus "summary" being spammed by "Kathimerini." Furthermore Bernal never said the original Cretans or Greeks were black.
You should have posted the actual abstract of the study: Middle Eastern and European mtDNA lineages characterize populations from eastern Crete.Martinez L, Mirabal S, Luis JR, Herrera RJ. Department of Biological Sciences, Florida International University, Miami, Florida 33199, USA.
Throughout centuries, the geographic location of the island of Crete has been one of the leading factors shaping the composition of its population. Invasions and commercial and cultural ties at various time periods with European, Middle Eastern, and North African civilizations have created a collage of genetic and/or cultural influences from each of these regions within the island. Previous Y-chromosome diversity analyses uncovered pronounced differences in the frequency distribution of haplogroups from a mountain refugium and surrounding lowland populations of eastern Crete. In this study, the current geographic stratification of mtDNA haplotypes in eastern Crete was explored to elucidate potential sources of maternal gene flow. Our work includes a comparative characterization of two lowland collections from the Heraklion and Lasithi Prefectures in eastern Crete, as well as of an isolated mountain population from the Lasithi Plateau, all three previously examined using Y-chromosome markers. In addition to the presence of European mtDNA haplogroups in all three collections, our analyses reveal a significant contribution of Middle Eastern and Central Asian genetic signatures in the island of Crete, and particularly in the two populations from the Lasithi region at the eastern-most portion of the island. Close association between these Cretan groups and the Balkans can also be discerned, which in the case of the Lasithi Plateau corroborates previously uncovered Y-chromosome affiliations with the same geographic region.
Note it doesn't rule out African influences, but says there are significant "contribution of Middle Eastern and Central Asian genetic signatures in the island of Crete" particularly in the Eastern parts. This study thus has nothing to do with "debunking" Bernal and does not address other data on Crete showing those African linkages.
Sunja and Ako seem to have spotted the game early on. You've been played dude, by another one of Matilda's false disinformation scams. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Warepanman:
You've been played dude, by another one of Matilda's false disinformation scams.
Indeed.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
It seems everyone is having trouble keeping everything in order. So let's take it real slow.
Quote from the article: The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.
The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.
The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.
“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.
Clyde Quote: It fact it is a paraphrase by some web troll called "Kathimerini" whose been spamming it all over. Note on the website that the so called Greek scientist told "Kathimerini" about Bernal.
Actually there is a web newspaper called "Kathimerini". Note it's web link below.
As to Mr. Triantafyllidis statement; he WAS Paraphrasing, we all do it, especially on this board. Whether or not there is an actual Mr. Triantafyllidis, who cares.
Clyde Quote: You should have posted the actual abstract of the study:
Actually there is a link to the study in my article.
Clyde quote: Furthermore Bernal never said the original Cretans or Greeks were black.
akoben Quote: Bernal argues for "Afroasiatic influences" he does not say they were black people or it was a black civilisation.
From the book caption above Quote: The popular view is that Greek civilization was the result of the conquest of a sophisticated but weak native population by vigorous Indo-European speakers--or Aryans--from the North.
But the Classical Greeks, Bernal argues, knew nothing of this "Aryan model." They did not see their political institutions, science, philosophy, or religion as original, but rather as derived from the East in general, and Egypt in particular.
Re. the bolded text; Do you think that those weak natives who were conquered by the Whites were Chinese? I mean, if the Whites are the ones invading, that only leaves Blacks and Chinese to be the "Weak Natives". It is complicated for you, isn't it? To correct this deficiency, please look up "Deductive Reasoning" or "Inference" it will help you!
What my post is actually about:
DE-constructing a study which uses DNA from modern people, instead of using DNA from ancient skeletons to glean information about the etymology of said people.
By investigating the backgrounds of the modern people, I demonstrated that it was not possible to make a meaningful connection in that way; and thus the study was bogus - Regardless of its conclusions. I believe in legal parlance that is called "fruit from rotten roots".
You will also note, that at no time do I argue the technical merits of the study, only it's methods.
You will also note, that I do not argue it's supposed conclusion, only it's method in reaching it's conclusion.
And need I repeat, that I have not read the book or know it's author.
And I might add; It seems that not only have none of you actually read the book, it seems that you have not bothered to read my article either.
But yet, there is all of this spirited debate about the book, which no one has actually read. And there is spirited debate about what the study says, but no debate of what is actually in my article.
So, is this a case of everyone just needing something to say. Or perhaps, a reading comprehension problem. Or worst yet, a manifestation of the "Crabs in the Bucket" syndrome? Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
OMG Mike you really have a comprehension problem! And I'm not being facetious. Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Mike
Is Warepanman . .Clyde Winters???
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Mike
Is Warepanman . .Clyde Winters???
I don't know, I don't even know what or who a Warepanman is.
But there are strange goings on here. Especially with the younger set.
Sundjata Quotes: from the Battles BC: Hannibal Barca, thread. akoben's reply's are about the same. (The reference is to Black Europeans - such as the Etruscans).
Quote: Mike, you should stop posting random pictures and assuming that their physical features can accurately identify them. Honestly, what you and Marc do (in claiming that everybody and their Mama who did anything important was Black) borders on the side of reverse "racism.".
Quote: Get out of here with this nonsense Mike.. Jeeze..
Quote: It's your presentation Mike. Some of the things that you refer to and take for granted as "evidence" seems so dubious and outright objectionable as to defy common sense. Your fixation on Europe suggests to me a deviation from a useful priority.
Quote: What do you think those crazy ideas of yours are doing?
xyyman, I don't know about you, but as a young man, I was EAGER to hear about such things. And when I got an opportunity, I learned all that I could about it. So the responses of these supposed young Black people leaves me mystified.
Either there is some serious Pickaninnyhood going on, or they are White Trolls. I just don't see a NORMAL young Black person responding like that. Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hi Mike
I didn't make these quotes. They were made by warepanman.
.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: It seems everyone is having trouble keeping everything in order. So let's take it real slow.
Quote from the article: The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.
The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.
The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.
“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.
Clyde Quote: It fact it is a paraphrase by some web troll called "Kathimerini" whose been spamming it all over. Note on the website that the so called Greek scientist told "Kathimerini" about Bernal.
Actually there is a web newspaper called "Kathimerini". Note it's web link below.
As to Mr. Triantafyllidis statement; he WAS Paraphrasing, we all do it, especially on this board. Whether or not there is an actual Mr. Triantafyllidis, who cares.
Clyde Quote: You should have posted the actual abstract of the study:
Actually there is a link to the study in my article.
Clyde quote: Furthermore Bernal never said the original Cretans or Greeks were black.
akoben Quote: Bernal argues for "Afroasiatic influences" he does not say they were black people or it was a black civilisation.
From the book caption above Quote: The popular view is that Greek civilization was the result of the conquest of a sophisticated but weak native population by vigorous Indo-European speakers--or Aryans--from the North.
But the Classical Greeks, Bernal argues, knew nothing of this "Aryan model." They did not see their political institutions, science, philosophy, or religion as original, but rather as derived from the East in general, and Egypt in particular.
Re. the bolded text; Do you think that those weak natives who were conquered by the Whites were Chinese? I mean, if the Whites are the ones invading, that only leaves Blacks and Chinese to be the "Weak Natives". It is complicated for you, isn't it? To correct this deficiency, please look up "Deductive Reasoning" or "Inference" it will help you!
What my post is actually about:
DE-constructing a study which uses DNA from modern people, instead of using DNA from ancient skeletons to glean information about the etymology of said people.
By investigating the backgrounds of the modern people, I demonstrated that it was not possible to make a meaningful connection in that way; and thus the study was bogus - Regardless of its conclusions. I believe in legal parlance that is called "fruit from rotten roots".
You will also note, that at no time do I argue the technical merits of the study, only it's methods.
You will also note, that I do not argue it's supposed conclusion, only it's method in reaching it's conclusion.
And need I repeat, that I have not read the book or know it's author.
And I might add; It seems that not only have none of you actually read the book, it seems that you have not bothered to read my article either.
But yet, there is all of this spirited debate about the book, which no one has actually read. And there is spirited debate about what the study says, but no debate of what is actually in my article.
So, is this a case of everyone just needing something to say. Or perhaps, a reading comprehension problem. Or worst yet, a manifestation of the "Crabs in the Bucket" syndrome?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Clyde - So sorry, I glanced at the icon, and thought it was you. Can you sue him for using your icon? Once again, I am very sorry. But to be honest, I should have known from the content that it was not you.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ This is symptomatic of how you approach research. You don't read. We are seeing a trend here.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ This is symptomatic of how you approach research. We are seeing a trend here.
Please answer the questions and references addressed to you above.
Is it Pickaninny or White Troll?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
I already dismissed your delusions. You have "refuted" nothing mike since:
1) you didn't know who Bernal was or what he argued
2) Random photo spasms (!) don't prove anything
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Oh, I don't know, seems that I was right on the Etruscans. What have you been right on?
So, Is it Pickaninny or White Troll?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Whenever you're ready Mike. Let me have the script.
quote: Black Athena From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality. Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page. (December 2008)
Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization is a three-volume work by Martin Bernal. Its subject matter is ancient Greece; the author's thesis regards the perception of ancient Greece in relation to its African and Asiatic neighbors by the West—Europe, the change of this Western perception from the 18th century onward, and the subsequent denial by Western academia of the African and (western) Asiatic influence on ancient Greek culture.
The work was published in three volumes:
Volume I, The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985 (1987) Volume II, The Archaeological and Documentary Evidence (1991) Volume III, The Linguistic Evidence (2006)
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
In accounting for the origins of all of the White people in Europe, I missed this one.
The Basques
The Basques are a people who inhabit a region spanning over parts of north-central Spain and southwestern France.
The name Basque derives from the ancient tribe of the Vascones, described by Ancient Greek historian Strabo as living south of the western Pyrenees and north of the Ebro River, in modern day Navarre and northern Aragon. This tribal name, of unknown etymology, was extended in late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages to cover all Basque-speaking people on either side of the Pyrenees
The Vascones were an ancient people who, at the arrival of the Romans, inhabited the region of present day Navarre, Lower La Rioja and north-western Aragon. It is likely that they are ancestors of the present-day Basques, to whom they left their name.
Since the Basques speak a non-Indo-European language and have the highest proportion of the Rh negative blood type of all the peoples of the world, they were widely considered to be a genetically isolated population, preserving the genes of European Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers, until recent genetic studies found that modern Basques have a common ancestry with other Western Europeans. The similarity includes the predominance in their male populations of Y-chromosome (Haplogroup R1b), now considered to have been spread through Europe by new arrivals in the Neolithic period or later.
mtDNA (Haplogroup V) was initially thought to have spread through Europe after the last Ice Age from a refuge in what is now the Basque Country. However studies have found no V in ancient remains from three prehistoric sites in the Basque Country dating to 4000-5000 years ago. In addition, haplogroup K (mtDNA), found at frequencies of 16%-23% in the prehistoric sites, is nearly absent from modern Basques., while haplogroup J (mtDNA) (thought to have arrived in Europe with Neolithic farmers), found in two prehistoric sites at a frequency of 16% and the early medieval necropolis at Aldaieta at 14.7%, has suffered a major reduction to 2.4% in modern Basques.
Bottom line - The Basque sh1t, is just the usual White bullsh1t, trying to say that White people are Europeans instead of Asians.
This study further proves it!
We Are Not Our Ancestors: Evidence for Discontinuity between Prehistoric and Modern Europeans
Ellen Levy-Coffman
The model of European genetic ancestry has recently shifted away from the Neolithic diffusion model towards an emphasis on autochthonous Paleolithic origins. However, this new paradigm utilizes genetic reconstructions based primarily on contemporary populations and, furthermore, is often promoted without regard to the findings of ancient DNA studies. These ancient DNA studies indicate that contemporary European ancestry is not a living fossil of the Paleolithic maternal deme; rather, demographic events during the Neolithic and post-Neolithic periods appear to have had substantial impact on the European genetic record. In addition, evolutionary processes, including genetic drift, adaptive selection and disease susceptibility, may have altered the patterns of maternal lineage frequency and distribution in existing populations. As a result, the genetic history of Europe has undergone significant transformation over time, resulting in genetic discontinuity between modern-day Europeans and their ancient maternal forbearers.
Received: August 17, 2006; Accepted October 20, 2006
Address for correspondence: Ellen Coffman, Ellenlevy66 (at) yahoo.com
Introduction
The genetic model currently presented by many population geneticists emphasizes the autochthonous Paleolithic ancestry of contemporary Europeans. This paradigm is based on the perspective that contemporary Europeans descend primarily from their hunter-gatherer forbearers who lived in the same region until approximately 10,000 years ago, when the beginning of settled agriculture began. This Paleolithic ancestry is seen as remaining relatively unaffected by later gene flow, including any large-scale movements of farmers out of the Middle East during the Neolithic era. These agriculturalists are in fact presented as outsiders who left only limited genetic traces among contemporary Europeans, who instead derive most of their ancestry from indigenous hunter-gatherers groups that adopted Levantine agricultural practices through a cultural diffusion process.
In an effort to lend support to this genetic model, the distribution and frequency of both mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome haplogroups among modern European populations are utilized in reconstructing ancient population histories. The Basque, lone speakers in of a non-Indo-European language living in the Pyrenees Mountains of Spain and France, are often presented as the best example of a contemporary European group that retains the strongest and most undiluted genetic ancestry derived from Europe’s Paleolithic inhabitants.
Thus, the picture presented by this model is one of substantial genetic continuity between modern groups and the Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who inhabited the same region thousands of years ago.
Yet the DNA evidence suggests a more complex picture than a direct and undisturbed genetic link between contemporary Europeans and their Paleolithic forbearers. A significant and as of yet unexplained genetic discontinuity exists between present and past populations. Since the recent advent of techniques allowing the extraction of DNA from ancient remains (“aDNA”), in particular mtDNA, the actual genetic background of the ancient maternal inhabitants of Europe can now be compared to their contemporary counterparts. Rather than using contemporary European DNA to reconstruct the genetic histories of populations from the past, this new technique allows researchers to determine to what extent later European populations truly do retain the genetic legacy of the earlier group.
In contrast to the Paleolithic paradigm, these studies indicate an unexpected and significant genetic discontinuity exists between contemporary Europeans and their Paleolithic predecessors. They also suggest that the exclusive use of contemporary DNA samples in the reconstruction of earlier population histories has created a misleading picture of the European genetic legacy.
Various demographic and evolutionary mechanisms may have led to this genetic break with the past, including the strong likelihood of genetic contributions from migratory peoples that occurred during the Neolithic, and into the Bronze and Iron Ages. This gene flow may have been so significant that genetic signals from the earlier inhabitants of Europe have been all but obliterated, even amounting to wholesale population replacement. Founder effects, genetic drift and bottlenecks also have had a dramatic impact. In addition, Darwinian principles of natural selection and resistance against disease may have changed the face of Europe over time, causing certain genetic groups to disappear while others have come to dominate the genetic landscape. These events, either alone or in combination, have resulted in a striking genetic discontinuity between past and present populations.
As a result, contemporary Europeans should not be viewed as descending entirely or even significantly from either Neolithic farmers or the indigenous Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe. Rather, Europeans appear to be an entirely new and modern genetic mix formed as a result of a number of demographic and evolutionary events over time, including the continual movement of peoples across the European continent over the millennia.
The Popular Paradigm of Paleolithic Ancestry: Evidence from Central Europe and the First Farmers
One recent and highly publicized DNA study illustrates not only how the idea of autochthonous Paleolithic origins of modern-day Europeans has been readily adopted by many population geneticists, but also how the researchers fail to address contradictory evidence that appears to conflict with that Paleolithic paradigm.
Anthropologist Joachim Burger and graduate student Wolfgang Haak of Johannes Gutenburg University in Mainz, Germany, along with their research team, successfully extracted mtDNA from twenty-four ancient remains buried at sixteen early farming sites in Germany, Austria and Hungary. (Haak 2006) All the human remains were dated to 7500-7000 years ago based on associated cultural finds connected with the Linear Pottery Culture (Linearbandkeramik or “LBK”) that is regarded as marking the onset of the early farming cultures of Central Europe. The study sought to answer the crucial question of whether Europeans descended from the first European farmers of the Neolithic period 7500 years ago, or from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who were present in Europe since 40,000 years ago.
Out of twenty-four samples, seven were in mtDNA haplogroup H or V, five were T, four K, one J and one U3. These haplogroups, widespread in Europe, the Middle East and Central Asia, and apparently lacking “temporal or geographic discrimination,” did not yield enough useful clues to allow the researchers to address their Paleolithic versus Neolithic ancestry question. Thus, the researchers focused on the remaining six results. Those six samples were found to be within haplogroup N1a, a distinctive branch of haplogroup N that is rare among Europeans today. Among the ancient samples, however, N1a was found at a high frequency ranging from 8% to 42%, or 150 times more frequent than among modern-day Europeans. It was also widespread, appearing in sites in both Hungary and Germany.
Based on this evidence alone, the authors of the study concluded that the early Neolithic agriculturalists had “limited success in leaving a genetic mark on the female lineages of modern Europeans.” They further concluded that because modern Europeans do not appear to be descended from the first farmers, they must therefore be direct descendants of indigenous Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.
However, the possibility that either genetic drift or post-Neolithic migrations caused N1a to disappear from modern European lineages requires adequate examination. Haak and Burger dismissed the first possibility and failed to address the second. Using computer simulations intended to reconstruct the impact of genetic drift over the past 7500 years, the researchers found that drift alone could not account for the disappearance of N1a lineages among contemporary Europeans. This scenario, however, did not address other factors such as susceptibility to disease which may have had an impact on mtDNA groups over time and could have affected the longevity of the N1a lineage, particularly when coupled with the effects of genetic drift.
Nor did the authors address the possibility of a post-Neolithic replacement scenario, noting only that “[a]rchaeological evidence for such an event is as of yet scant.” Yet large-scale movement of peoples throughout Europe is recorded in both the archaeological record and numerous historical accounts. Given the lack of genetic continuity between modern Europeans and Paleolithic samples as evidenced by other aDNA studies, impact from post-Neolithic migrations is not only reasonable but highly likely.
Haak mentions only a single additional ancient DNA study in a footnote, addressing such evidence only in the most cursory fashion. That study involved the DNA testing of a 2500 year-old skeleton belonging to the Scytho-Siberian population of the Altai Republic in Central Asia. (Ricaut 2004) The mtDNA results indicated that this individual also belonged to haplogroup N1a. The researchers noted the absence of N1a among 490 modern Central Asian DNA results, but found N1a in low frequency in nearby Iran and southeastern India. They concluded that changes in the genetic structure of Central Asian populations must have occurred in the past 2500 years, probably as a result of Asian population movements into the west.
This conclusion was supported by the finding that in India, N1a was absent from the Dravidic-speaking population, but present in low frequency among five Indo-Aryan speaking individuals, the majority belonging to an upper Brahman caste. This suggested that the Bronze Age migrations of the Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians out of the Central Asian steppe and into southeastern regions of Eurasia could be responsible for the appearance of N1a among these contemporary populations. Given that the Scythians were an Indo-Iranian speaking people believed to have originated in the western Altai, there appeared to be a possible N1a connection between the ancient Scytho-Siberian peoples and contemporary Indo-Iranian derived populations of India and Iran.
Yet this explanation, while reasonable, did not explain the disappearance of N1a entirely from a region believed to be the homeland of the Scythian peoples, and when linked with Haak’s older N1a findings from Europe, the mystery of N1a’s disappearance only deepened. Furthermore, both the European N1a remains and the Central Asian skeleton clearly belonged to the Eurasian rather than the south Asian/African branch of N1a. It became less likely, then, that they were N1a “outsiders” migrating from outside Eurasia. This fact led the Scytho-Siberian researchers to suggest that more recent migrations within the last 2500 years impacted the genetic ancestry of modern Central Asians; Haak, on the other hand, ignored the possibility of post-Neolithic migrations impacting the genetic structure of modern Europeans. He also failed to address the fact that modern-day Middle Eastern and Caucasian groups living in regions from whence the Neolithic agriculturalists would have originated possess a high frequency of the south Asian/African branch of N1a, while Europeans fall almost exclusively within the Eurasian branch. Yet none of Haak’s skeletal remains fall within the Asian/African branch, making the supposed link between N1a and the Neolithic agriculturalists less likely. (Haak 2006, supplementary material).
Haak also failed to examine other available aDNA research on ancient Paleolithic remains from Europe. Had he done so, he would have discovered that haplogroup N, the ancestral root of N1a, was present among Paleolithic Europeans. Two Cro-Magnon individuals were tested from the Paglicci cave of Southern Italy, a site dated to 23,000 years ago, during the Upper Paleolithic era. (Caramelli 2003) The first individual belonged to haplogroup HV or pre-HV, two groups noted to be “rare in general but with comparatively high frequencies among today’s Near Easterners.” The second individual belonged to macrohaplogroup N, which contains haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c and R. However, a single change in the CRS at HVRI nucleotide position 16223 suggested classification in haplogroup N* rather than in any of its subgroups. N* is found today in low frequency in the Middle East and Central Asia, including among Iranian, Pakistani and Indian populations. (Quintana-Murci 2004) It is rare in modern-day Europeans. Thus, not only did the study suggest that Paleolithic Europeans displayed a closer genetic link with modern-day Middle Easterners than they did with contemporary Europeans, but it also established that the root of N, obviously ancestral to Eurasian group N1a, was already present in Europe during the Paleolithic period.
Nor did Haak address the extensive Strontium isotope data derived from the same sites presented in his study. Strontium isotopes from human teeth and bones provide a geochemical signature of the place of birth and the place of death of the individual. Thus, it can be used as a direct measurement of migration, tracking the movement of groups between different geological zones. Three archaeological studies containing Strontium isotope data on the LBK sites generated similar results. (Bentley 2003; Bentley 2002; Price 2001). They suggested that while many of the LBK inhabitants moved to these sites from some distance away, it was also evident that some of the individuals were of local origin. This raised the question, however, of whether the local individuals represent sedentary farmers or local foragers/herders. One study suggested that the non-locals were hunter-gatherers (Bentley 2003) while the other study suggested they were immigrant farmers (Price 2001).
Archaeologists were also able to differentiate between the locals and immigrants by examining burial goods. In particular, many locals were buried with shoe-last adzes, particularly at sites like Flomborn in Germany, where the isotopic data also indicate that almost all the adze burials accompanied individuals of local origin. (Bentley 2002) Haak noted in his study that the Flomborn individual was indeed buried with a shoe-last adze. However, many of the other human remains he tested were not and thus, it should not be assumed that they were also of local origin. Rather, Haak appeared to be examining a mixture of locals and immigrants. His samples should therefore not be deemed exclusively “Neolithic” or “Paleolithic” in origin.
Intermixture between Paleolithic and Neolithic peoples is further supported by the fact that burial orientation also correlated with place of origin. (Price 2001) This intermixture becomes especially apparent at Schwetzingen, at site also tested by Haak and representing the later phase of the LBK, when the process of contact between the farmers and hunter-gatherers appears to become more complex. At Schwetzingen, all but two of the immigrant burials are oriented in directions from north to east. At Flomborn, 4 of the 5 west-facing burials were of immigrants. Yet in Haak’s samples, the Flomborn and Derenburg individuals were buried in an East-West direction, while in Halberstadt, the burial orientation was West-East. One study suggested that immigrant brides may have been incorporated into the community and given a local identity, including burial in a northeastern direction. (Bentley 2003)
The failure of Haak’s genetic study to incorporate important archaeological data along with other ancient DNA results leaves the question of N1a’s ultimate origins unanswered. Nor is the mystery of N1a’s disappearance among Europeans today adequately addressed. The idea that N1a represents a Neolithic farming lineage that failed to impart a genetic legacy is not supported by the evidence. Based on the limited N1a findings, Haak made a sweeping generalization that the Neolithic farmers overall failed to have a significant genetic impact on Europe. But the evidence suggests a much more complex picture, even the possibility that N1a may represent a Paleolithic European lineage that has mysteriously diminished over time.
The Basque: Reflections of a Paleolithic Past?
The group most often presented as the best representatives of the genetic descendants of Europe’s pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer past is the Basque. In this case, the idea of relatively undiluted Paleolithic ancestry is an understandable one, given that the Basque, who today inhabit the Pyrenees Mountains of Spain and France, remain the only Western European group that continue to speak a non-Indo-European language (Euskara) with no known living European relatives. The Basque are generally depicted not only genetic vestiges of the most ancient inhabitants of Europe, but also one of the oldest human isolates, receiving no significant genetic contributions from outsiders. This isolation is supposedly reflected by Basque cultural/linguistic uniqueness, a high level of endogamy, and geographic protection among the Pyrenees Mountains.
Because of this uniqueness, the Basque have been the subject of numerous genetic studies, allowing researchers to investigate whether the perception of the Basque as representatives of the indigenous Paleolithic gene pool is in fact a valid one. Furthermore, numerous aDNA studies have also been performed on both Neolithic and historic Basque remains, providing the opportunity for researchers to compare modern-day Basque with their Neolithic counterparts. Thus far, however, only a few researchers have performed such a comparison. Those few have reached conclusions that conflict with the idea that the Basque population represents a “living fossil” of the first European settlers of the Paleolithic. (Alonso 2005)
One such study compared the mtDNA variability of a historical Basque population (VI-VII c. AD) recovered from the necropolis of Aldaieta (Nanclares de Gamboa, Araba, Basque Country) with remains tested from three prehistoric sites in Basque Country dating to 4000-5000 Years Before Present (“YBP”). (Alzualde 2005) These populations were then compared with modern-day Basque. The results were stunning.
The researchers discovered that the mtDNA of the historical Basque population falls within the range of present-day populations along Europe’s Atlantic coast, known as “the Atlantic fringe,” while the prehistoric Basque populations were clearly differentiated. In particular, notable frequency differences were found among the haplogroup K, V, H and J results. For example, haplogroup K was found at a high frequency among the prehistoric groups (16% - 23%), but is nearly absent from present-day Basque, and in contemporary Europeans, it occurs between 3.6% to 7.7%.
Haplogroup H, hypothesized to have been present in Europe since at least the late Paleolithic and the most common haplogroup among present-day Europeans (approximately 50%) and Basque (62%), was also found at a high frequency of 48% among the historical remains at Aldaieta, but at lower frequencies at the prehistoric sites (37% at SJAPL and Rico Ramos, 44% at Longar). This variation suggests that there was heterogeneity between the various prehistoric communities themselves, with some communities having a higher frequency of certain haplogroups than others. (Alzualde 2005)
Haplogroup V, on the other hand, is believed to have originated in the vicinity of Basque County, possibly during the late Paleolithic, and is found today in its highest frequency among present-day Basque groups (10.2%). Yet the researchers found no V among the prehistoric remains. The complete absence of prehistoric V in a region where V is believed to have originated disrupts the theory of V’s Paleolithic origins among southwestern Europeans. It also casts doubt on the belief that V’s presence among modern-day Basque represents genetic continuity from their Paleolithic ancestors (Izgirre 1999).
Further aDNA evidence supports the view that V either did not originate in this region or does not represent the vestiges of an autochthonous Paleolithic lineage. It has been theorized that the Spanish and the Basque may share genetic affinities as relics of indigenous Paleolithic Europeans. The ancient Iberians, a group inhabiting the Iberian Peninsula including present-day Spain (and ultimately giving their name to this region) from at least the Bronze Age, also spoke a non-Indo-European language, though unrelated to the Basque tongue. Yet in a study examining the mtDNA diversity of the Pre-Roman ancient Iberians dating from 6th century BC, the researchers also found an absence of haplogroup V, leading to the conclusion that “this lineage was not especially prevalent in the ancient populations with non Indo-European languages from the Iberian Peninsula” (Sampietro 2005). The researchers instead suggested that the high frequency of V among contemporary Basque was more likely the result of genetic drift or admixture with later arrivals of haplogroup V migrants. In particular, the impact of later immigrants to the region, including the Romans, Visigoths and Vandals, may have exerted a cumulative genetic impact on the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula. Most importantly, they strongly suggested that both Iberians and Basque were composed of a “complex mosaic of pre-Roman peoples” that emerged not from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but from later Bronze and Iron Age local communities.
Similar conclusions were reached when analyzing the mtDNA haplogroup J results among the Basque. Haplogroup J is considered a main lineage of Neolithic expansion out of the Middle East. Although absent from the prehistoric Basque site of Longar, it is present at the other two, displaying values of approximately 16%. Even at Aldaieta, haplogroup J reached a frequency of 14.7%, yet in present-day Basque, J is present at a low frequency of 2.4%. Thus, this Neolithic lineage was clearly present in high frequency among both the prehistoric and historic Basque groups. Yet the low frequency of haplogroup J among contemporary Basque has led researchers to incorrectly conclude that the early Basque population was genetically unaffected by this Neolithic lineage. In reality, haplogroup J appears to have suffered a severe reduction in frequency among the Basque over time.
Frequency differences among the mtDNA results between modern and prehistoric Basque populations led researchers to conclude that a “discontinuity” exists between prehistoric and modern-day groups (Alzualde 2005). The results also suggest that the reconstruction of the biological history of European populations based only on current DNA results is often misleading and incorrect. Using haplogroup J as an example, Alzualde explains that because “the Basque population is considered an outlier regarding the Neolithic component, it has been proposed that this region experienced a smaller genetic impact from Neolithic farmers. But if we accept that lineage J is a marker of migrations of Neolithic populations from the Near East, then the Basque Country also experienced the impact of these people, as shown by the high frequency of haplogroup J in certain ancient populations” (Alzualde 2005). Additional aDNA evidence from Basque archaeological sites lends support to this conclusion. Alzualde more closely investigated the frequency and presence of various haplogroups, including a number of uncommon haplotypes, among the Basque of the 6th-7th centuries from the historic site of Aldaieta. (Alzualde 2006) He had also examined the mtDNA from Aldaieta in his previous study, though not with the depth of coverage present in this subsequent investigation.
The study emphasized the uncertain background of the Aldaieta population. While the remains suggested that the site was settled by “autochthonous individuals” with stable familial ties, the high percentage of weaponry and similarity of mortuary objects with Frankish cemeteries were also noted, indicating possible trade links or even temporary Frankish control of Basque territory.
Of the fifteen haplotypes from Aldaieta, nine are uncommon or unique haplotypes. The unique haplotypes are found within haplogroups T, U5, U2 and J. One of these haplotypes bore close affinities with modern-day populations in Eastern Europe, while the remainder of the unusual haplotypes were nearly absent from contemporary European populations, including the Basque.
The researchers also discovered the presence of haplogroup M1 at Aldaieta, a rare haplogroup among present-day Europeans and peoples of the Iberian Peninsula. This suggested a probable genetic relationship between the historical Basque group and Northwestern Africa, where sequences similar to those at Aldaeita have been found. This relationship predates the Moorish period, since the chronology of the material remains at Aldaeita is dated earlier than the 8th century AD, the time when occupation by the Moors began.
The researchers issued a warning to other geneticists, suggesting that hypotheses formulated solely on the basis of DNA results from modern-day populations, without accompanying aDNA evidence, can lead to inaccurate reconstructions of population histories. Geneticists who propose an undiluted Paleolithic ancestry for the Basque often do so without reference to numerous aDNA studies. As a result, they incorrectly attribute the unique and unusual genetic results of contemporary Basque as indicators of undiluted Paleolithic ancestry.
The Aldaieta study concluded with the controversial suggestion that the Basque were not only impacted by cumulative gene flow from Neolithic Near East ancestors and as well as later invaders, but may have been affected by significant post-Neolithic biological events, including genetic drift and natural selection. Given the genetic discontinuity between present and prehistoric populations, the researchers urged their colleagues to consider the idea that “the genetic patterns of present-day populations reflect the evolutionary processes experienced by their predecessors,” suggesting that these post-Neolithic processes have altered the genetic composition of the Basque and European populations as a whole.
Other genetic studies on the Basque have focused on examining blood groups, STR loci, and autosomal markers, often in an attempt to support the Paleolithic paradigm. However, in light of the aDNA studies, Basque distinctiveness can be accounted for by the processes of genetic drift, inbreeding over long periods of time and natural selective processes. For instance, a correlation was observed between increased genetic differentiation between Europeans and Basque groups still speaking the Basque language. (Perez-Miranda 2005) It has been postulated that one of the causative agents of Basque isolation over the centuries is the Basque language. Thus, the more conservative the retention of the Basque language, the more likely the particular Basque community suffered the effects of isolation and genetic drift.
Moreover, the researchers noted that the Basque are unique among European populations due to their extremely high rate of consanguinity. Basque social and cultural traditions continue to promote consanguinity. The genetic impact of such inbreeding has yet to fully explored by geneticists, but the high frequency of inherited disorders among the Basque, including Coagulation Deficiences (Factor XI) and Mutation F508 (Cystic Fibrosis Gene), support the suggestion that drift, inbreeding, and a small population size maintained over many generations, as opposed to significant retention of Paleolithic genetic ancestry, best explains the present genetic makeup of the Basque (Alonso 2005; Bauduer 2005).
Finally, even researchers that have found limited genetic evidence of probable Paleolithic ancestry among the Basque also acknowledge that such findings do not support the contention that contemporary Basque retain significant genetic links with indigenous Paleolithic Europeans. (Gonzalez 2006) For instance, although the Basque mtDNA lineage U8a may date to the late Paleolithic, it is rarely found today among modern-day Europeans and, furthermore, constitutes only 1% of contemporary Basque mtDNA results. Thus, U8a has diminished in frequency among populations today in a manner similar to the N1a lineage.
Etruscans: Extinction or Mutation?
Like the ancient Basque, the origin of the Etruscan people remains obscure. The Etruscans lived in central Italy from the 8th-2nd centuries BCE. Like the Basque, they spoke a non-Indo-European language, but unrelated to the Basque language. After the Romans rose to dominant Italy in the 2nd century BCE, the Etruscan language disappeared from the records. It was therefore assumed that the Etruscan population had been culturally and genetically assimilated by the Romans. But the aDNA evidence tells a different story.
Two separate aDNA studies on the Etruscans reached similar conclusions, finding essentially no genetic relationship between the ancient Etruscans and the modern-day inhabitants of Tuscany (ie, “Tuscans”) (Belle 2006; Vernesi 2004). Specifically, out of twenty-eight mtDNA sequences, only six occur in any modern-day groups. The remaining twenty-one haplotypes, identified as belonging to the JT haplogroup, do not occur in any contemporary European populations, including the common Etruscan haplotypes 16126- 16193 and 16126-16193-16278. These sequences, while occurring among modern-day haplogroups J2 and T, are not accompanied by substitutions at 16069 and 16294, respectively, which are inevitably present among the contemporary motifs (Vernesi 2004).
The researchers attributed this lack of genetic relationship between Etruscans and Tuscans to two possible processes – the extinction of Etruscan mtDNA lineages among modern-day Europeans, or demographic and evolutionary processes occurring in the last 2,500 years. These processes, if they occurred, were severe enough to disrupt the genetic continuity between the modern and ancient inhabitants of Tuscany.
Researchers performed a number of simulations to investigate whether certain phenomenon, such as genetic drift, migration or a higher than average mtDNA mutation rates, could have impacted the genetic continuity between Etruscans and Tuscans. (Belle 2006) None of their simulations were compatible with the DNA results. The genetic evidence did not support the conclusion that Tuscans were the modern-day descendants of the Etruscans, although the researchers noted that the skeletal remains used for their aDNA samples may not have been representative of the entire Etruscan population, but of a more elite sub-strata. Even so, they seemed to have contributed very little to the mtDNA background of modern Tuscans.
However, the researchers also found that genetic continuity could be generated if the mtDNA mutation rate was set very high (0.5 mutations per million years as opposed to commonly used lower rate of approx. 0.05 mutations per million years per nucleotide) or if gene flow from other areas was so extensive that Etruscan descendants became underrepresented in the modern Tuscan samples. They concluded, however, that the very high mtDNA mutation rates needed to reproduce genetic continuity were “implausible” and, furthermore, the only way to determine if descendants were underrepresented in the study was to collect more modern samples over time.
Thus, the study concluded that modern-day Tuscans largely descend from non-Etruscan ancestors. Regarding the fate of the Etruscans, the suspicion voiced by the researchers was that the Etruscan lineages simply went extinct.
Evolutionary Extinction of mtDNA Lineages
If the idea of mtDNA lineage extinction is accepted as the most likely scenario leading to the weak genealogical relationship between ancient and modern-day populations, then the question arises as to what evolutionary, demographic or human processes have caused such extinctions.
For example, in the case of the Etruscans, significant historic gene flow could have diluted the Etruscan lineages to the point where they have become difficult to detect in modern-day Tuscans, particularly if the lineages were already weakened by extensive gene flow from the Romans. DNA studies examining ancient remains from periods much later in time than the Iron Age Etruscans suggest admixture with other populations may indeed be a strong contributing factor to the apparent genetic break between past and present populations. Given the later date of these aDNA remains, more genetic traces of these ancient lineages are often found among their modern-day European descendants. Still, notable differences remain.
One such study examined the genetic legacy of the ancient Cumanians, believed to have migrated from Central Asia during the 13th century, among their alleged Hungarian descendants. After analyzing the aDNA of eleven medieval Cumanian samples, the researchers found that some of the lineages could not detected among modern-day Hungarians. (Bogacsi-Szabo 2005) One Cumanian sequence belonged to haplogroup D, found in modern Buryats of Central Asia, but absent from Hungarians (and rare in Europeans, found primarily among European Russians at 1.86%). Some of the samples were assigned to haplogroup U, but again no identical sequences could be found among Hungarians. One of the skeletal samples was identified as a Cumanian chieftain based on burial goods. His sequence belonged to U3, present in Greeks and some Balkan groups, but absent from the contemporary Hungarian sample. A few of the sequences, originally thought to belong to haplogroup F, but possibly belonging to haplogroup T, are found among Hungarians today. Still, the notable lack of genetic continuity between Cumanians and Hungarians led the researchers to suggest that a dilution of the Cumanian lineages had occurred, possibly due to admixture with “more westerly genetic elements.” Yet the study failed to cite evidence supporting this contention, other than relying on “legends” of Cumanian nomads carrying off local women from raided territories (Bogacsi-Szabo 2005).
In another study examining aDNA from an early Danish Christian cemetery dating to 1000-1250 AD, two rare haplotypes were found among the ten samples. One belonged to haplogroup U7, absent from modern-day Scandinavians, but found in contemporary groups in the Middle East, India and western Siberia. The other unusual sequence belonged to haplogroup I, occurring in only 2% of modern-day Scandinavians. These results suggested that individuals living in this area of Denmark as recently as 1,000 years ago “comprised individuals with genetic links with populations that were much farther away.” Furthermore, there was a surprising diversity among the aDNA results and a lack of direct maternal or sibling relationship between the subjects, indicating that “the ancient Danes were not just members of a tightly knit local population; some probably originated from far way” (Rudbeck 2005).
The researchers speculated that the Scandinavian population had either not yet become stable, or in the alternative, that the close proximity of the site to a nearby port town had brought in significantly more immigrants than might be found in groups residing in the surrounding countryside. This suggests the possibility of increased genetic continuity of ancient lineages among populations living far from ancient urban centers where admixture and cumulative gene flow with other incoming populations may have been more significant. It also indicates that ancient populations were not genetically static or homogenous, but incorporated immigrants from regions far away.
This fact was further emphasized in a study of Anglo-Saxon remains from a number of archaeological sites in England (Topf 2005). Researchers found that while the early skeletal remains, including those from early Saxon sites, showed close genetic links with northern European populations such as Estonia, Norway and Finland, later Saxon sites dated a mere few hundred years later were closer not only to southern European populations (Germany & Spain) but to Middle Eastern groups as well (Topf 2005).
The idea of dilution of genetic lineages was also proposed in the ancient Iberian study in which the researchers noted the likely cumulative genetic impact exerted by the invading Romans, Visigoths and Vandals on the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula. (Sampietro 2005) However, while redistribution of mtDNA lineages by migration and dilution may be one factor impacting genetic continuity, evolutionary processes may be another contributing factor. This controversial idea was proposed by Alzualde in his studies on the Basque (Alzualde 2005). What these evolutionary processes might be, however, was not explored further.
There are numerous studies suggesting that mtDNA genetic variation may be associated with adaptive selective, as well as linked with complex diseases and disorders. (Ruiz-Pesini 2004; Moilanen 2003) Some researchers have argued that the human genome evolution has been shaped over time primarily by infectious disease and that mtDNA has played a central role in the selection process due to its control of cellular metabolism (Samuels 2006).
Mitochondrial haplogroup J has been associated with Leber’s hereditary optic neuropathy, a rare disease that causes blindness in young people (Man 2004). It has also been associated with possible protection against Parkinson Disease, but increased susceptibility to multiple sclerosis (Ruiz-Pesini 2004; Ross 2003). Furthermore, Haplogroup J has been linked to increased longevity (De Benedictis 1999; Coskun PE 2003). Haplogroups K and T have been associated with protection against Alzheimer’s disease (Ruiz-Pesini 2004). Haplogroup K has also been linked with a lower risk of Parkinson’s Disease (Ghezzi 2005). Haplogroup U has been linked to increased risk of occipital stroke, and sub-clade U5 specifically to migrainous stroke (Finnila 2000). Haplogroup H has been linked to increased survival rates after recovery from sepsis (Baudouin 2006).
However, a number of other studies have failed to substantiate links between various mtDNA haplogroups and selective disease resistance or adaptive advantages (Houshmand 2004; Yao 2002; Rose 2001). Thus, the role that mitochondrial function and variability may play in adaptive selection, particularly disease resistance, remains unclear.
Other researchers have asserted that specific mtDNA replacement mutations allowed our prehistoric ancestors to adapt to more northern climates as they migrated out of Africa (Ruiz-Pesini 2004). These same mutations are allegedly influencing our health today. These secondary health effects became either deleterious or adaptive in terms of evolutionary selection.
In this scenario, lineages that encounter new environments for which their mitochondria were maladapted would be eliminated by selection, as would any lineages that developed deleterious mutations. These extinctions would leave no traces in the phylogeny. Similarly, selection would cause lineages with mutations that were positively adaptive to become more numerous. Those adaptive mutations can still be observed in the internal nodes of the phylogeny where their position indicates that they have been highly conserved. The researchers suggested that mtDNA haplogroup variation was primarily influenced by climatic selective pressures. Specifically, changes in mtDNA amino acid variants permitted certain ancient European mtDNA lineages to adapt to colder climates, particularly among haplogroups H, I + N1b, J, and X. These haplogroups had higher replacement mutation values among their internal branches and higher retention of the altered amino acids when compared to those in mtDNA haplogroup L, the most common haplogroup in Africa, indicating the influence of adaptive selection among the European lineages. According to the researchers, this arctic selection resulted in “the regional enrichment of specific mtDNA lineages (haplogroups)” in Europe (Ruiz-Pesini 2004).
However, it should be noted that haplogroups I, N1b, and X occur at much lower frequencies among European populations today than haplogroups H and J, in conflict with the idea that these particular lineages have equivalent survival advantages based on climatic adaptation. Additionally, the theory of climatic selective pressure shaping the mtDNA genome continues to remain a matter of debate among geneticists.
In another study, researchers suggested that differences observed between the mtDNA groups utilized in the Ruiz-Pesini study were merely the result of comparing “region-specific haplogroups of different diversity levels: e.g., the “old” paragroup L in Africans vs. “young” Arctic haplogroups” (Kivisild 2006). Although Kivisild’s study did not detect lineage-specific positive selection, evidence of site-specific positive selection was found within mitochondrion-encoded rRNA. This selection appeared to involve the replacement of two specific amino acids, threonine and valine, with two other acids, alanine and isoleucine. This pattern led Kivisild to suggest that diet rather than climate could be one important selective factor impacting mtDNA population histories. According to Kivisild, [t]hreonine and valine, essential amino acids that must be taken in the diet, are abundant in meats, fish, peanuts, lentils, and cottage cheese, but deficient in most grains.”
Given the significant modification in diet that European populations underwent during the Neolithic era as they transitioned from hunter-gatherer subsistence to an agricultural grain-based diet, Kivisild’s theory of potential selective pressure based on dietary factors warrants further investigation.
Ancient mtDNA variants advantageous in one climate or dietary environment may have been maladaptive in a different environment, contributing to the rise of modern bioenergetic disorders such as obesity, hypertension, diabetes and cardiovascular disease. (Mishmar 2002) However, whether due to dietary factors, climate adaptation, disease resistance or a combination of selective pressures, these studies suggest that natural selection may have played a role in determining which mtDNA lineages survived over time.
Conclusion: Why We Are Not Our Ancestors
The ancient DNA studies present a picture of genetic break or “discontinuity” between ancient and modern-day European maternal histories. This evidence indicates that modern-day mtDNA haplogroup frequencies and distributions should not be considered living fossils of Europe’s Paleolithic past.
Currently, the genetic picture presented by the aDNA studies is based exclusively on mitochondrial DNA results. This form of DNA, unlike that of the Y chromosome, is generally preserved in a form that allows for testing of ancient remains. However, the Y chromosome genetic picture of Europe may also have undergone significant change similar to that impacting the ancient maternal lineages. The ancient DNA results provide a cautionary framework for geneticists in their reconstruction of the distribution and frequency of ancient European Y chromosome lineages. Modern-day Europeans cannot accurately be used as genetic proxies for their prehistoric counterparts.
These findings stand in stark contrast to the model presented by many DNA studies of an undisturbed genetic link between contemporary and Paleolithic European groups. Yet evidence of such genetic continuity is sparse, even among populations such as the Basque. More problematically, it contradicts the findings of the ancient DNA studies. These studies indicate that populations have indeed changed dramatically over time, with some ancient lineages suffering reductions and even extinctions from the European gene pool.
Extinction appears to be the fate suffered by the Etruscans maternal lineages. Many other ancient groups appear to have suffered a similar fate, the continuity of their genetic lineages extinguished for future generations. Only the archaeological record remains a testament to their existence. Certain genetic lineages, like mtDNA haplogroup H, came to dominate the genetic landscape over time. The contemporary European genetic picture is thus a reflection of these complex demographic and evolutionary processes, changing and adapting until it is no longer a mere reflection of its genetic past, but a new and constantly evolving population.
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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
LOL @ Negrocentrics getting upset that the neolithic ancestors of the Minoans come from Asia minor and other Greek Islands and not from "Black" Egyptian colonists.
Bernal loses.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by SirInfamous: LOL @ Negrocentrics getting upset that the neolithic ancestors of the Minoans come from Asia minor and other Greek Islands and not from "Black" Egyptian colonists.
Bernal loses.
You don't read well or know much, do you White boy. You people started off as ignorant and aggressive creatures, incapable of creative thought, and you still are. Guess who the people in Asia minor (Anatolia/Turkey) were White boy. Here is a clue...
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
Dont be an idiot. When Africans leave Africa they don't become anything else once they 'step over some imaginary Border.' How did North East African genes get INTO Greece?
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe
"Evidence from three Y-chromosome lineages, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, make it possible to distinguish between Holocene Mesolithic forager and subsequent Neolithic range expansions from the eastern Sahara and the Near East, respectively."
"The ensuing range expansions of E-V13 and I-M423 parallel in space and time the diffusion of Neolithic Impressed Ware, thereby supporting a case of cultural diffusion using genetic evidence."
Haplogroup E = African Genetics any way you slice it.
Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by SirInfamous: LOL @ Negrocentrics getting upset that the neolithic ancestors of the Minoans come from Asia minor and other Greek Islands and not from "Black" Egyptian colonists.
Bernal loses.
You don't read well or know much, do you White boy. You people started off as ignorant and aggressive creatures, incapable of creative thought, and you still are. Guess who the people in Asia minor (Anatolia/Turkey) were White boy. Here is a clue...
Firstly, I am Greek.
Anyways I take it your cheap shots are at Northern Europeans primarily? Well when your West Africans ancestors were living in mud huts Northern Europeans were sailing the Atlantic Ocean. West Africans didn't even have a written language until they were bestowed the Latin Alphabet by European colonialists.
Today Northern Europeans nations are the most advanced in the world while the bottom 25 nations in human development are all in Sub Saharan Africa.
Your pictures do nothing to prove the "blackness" of Asia Minor. LOL.
Why is it that Blacks created all these great kingdoms in Asia Minor and North African yet didn't create a damn thing of noteworthiness in their homeland? Which is a trend that is still going on today. LOL
Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
ancient greeks lived their entire lives and never saw a black person.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^
But hey, I can understand why you would say that. lol
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^^LMFAO!! The lingua franca for west Africans was Arabic the same as how Latin was for northern Europe (in both cases, neither region had developed written languages before they adopted one). West Africa had urban centers at Djenne-Jeno, Nok, Ife, etc, before northern Europe even entered the dark ages, let alone before they built cities and left their caves. Mali was larger than all of western Europe combined.
""European travelers in the sixteenth century were impressed with the African kingdoms of Timbuktu and Mali, already stable and organized at a time when European states were just beginning to develop into modern nations."" - Howard Zinn
Ancient Greeks attributed intelligence to Blacks and slow-wits to Barbarian whites, considering themselves as intermediates.
"The Ethiopians, being in all else wiser than other men," invented astrology and taught it to the Egyptians - Lucian
The races that live in cold regions and those of Europe are full of courage and passion but somewhat lacking in skill and brainpower - Aristotle
Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards…The complexion of courage is between the two." - Aristotle
^^Greeks linked intelligence but cowardice to the dark south, and bravery but dull-wittedness to the white north.
"Now while the southern peoples are of acute intelligence and infinite resource, they give way when courage is demanded because their strength is drained away by the sun; but those who are born in colder regions by their fearless courage are better equipped for the clash of arms, yet by their slowness of mind they rush on without reflection, and through lack of tactics are balked of their purpose" - Vitruvius Polio
West Africans had more respect among Arabs and all other peoples outside of Europe than northern Europeans did..
They (whites) lack keenness of understanding and clarity of intelligence, and are overcome by ignorance and dullness, lack of discernment, and stupidity." - Sa'id al-Andalusi
Go back to citing Arthur Kemp..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Okay, just to answer the topic article:
First of all Anatolia was NOT in what is today modern Iraq, Iran, and Syria!! Anatolia is what is today Turkey.
Second of all, its been well known now from archaeological findings first and recent genetic findings that yes-- the predominant culture of Crete is Anatolian, there is an African cultural substratum which represents the first culture to settle the Island!:
British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941), who conducted excavations on the island, was convinced of African migrations to ancient Crete. He pointed out that:
"The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete."
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: "Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa."
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete:
"While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."
Whether the Minoan culture was more brilliant than that of Egypt is highly questionable at best, but on the other points Hall seems to just about to hit the mark. Evans, again, indeed considered Egypt and Libya as the springboards of Minoan civilization; so much so that he structured his own Minoan chronology on that of dynastic Egypt. He was particularly struck by the similarities in the contents of the of the tombs of the ancient Minoans and Egyptians:
"So numerous, in fact, are the points, of comparison presented by the contents of these early interments with those of pre dynastic Egypt that, far-fetched as the conclusion might appear at first sight, I was already some years since constrained to put forth the suggestion that about the time of the conquest of the lower Nile Valley by the first historic dynasty some part of the older population had actually settled in this southern foreland of Crete."
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt:
"At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce."
And of course there is too much anthropological evidence that shows the early Cretans and even later Cretans retained African features to deny an African presence!
All of this was discussed many times in this forum including here!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Assopen says to Pat: ^
But hey, I can understand why you would say that. lol
Of course. The same reason why you deny that you and the rest of your British boob kind have black ancestry as well, or the fact that Jews were victims of genocide. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Djehuti - Is that you? Looking to join the grown-ups I see. No need to take gratuitous rips then, and how did White Jews get into this? BTW - did you know that the original Hebrews came from there (Anatolia)?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by SirInfamous:
Why is it that Blacks created all these great kingdoms in Asia Minor and North African yet didn't create a damn thing of noteworthiness in their homeland? Which is a trend that is still going on today. LOL
Sundjata - You never really answered his question.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^You're an idiot Mike..1) How is "North Africa" not a homeland of indigenous African blacks and what does this say of Mali, Songhai, Ghana, Benin, Oyo, Kanem, Bornu, Askum, Kongo, Mutapa (Great Zimbabwe), etc., not to mention the pre-imperial ones I'd mentioned in Ife, Nok, and Djenne-Jeno? 2)He didn't ask me, he asked you, you self-hating weirdo.
Go concern yourself with Black aliens or something and leave me alone. I don't respect you at all.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course. The same reason why you deny
LOL You mean like your denial that "Greek" classical philosophy is a stolen legacy?
Difference between me and you, chump, is that I am willing to debate (crush) you fools on your holocaust myths while you consistently avoid defending your BS. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL I see you have the mentality of small child and not just a sexual deviant. I've addressed your distorted claims many times before. Of course I deny that Greek philosophy was a "stolen legacy" because they never stole it as cited in the very thread you linked to, moron! Its misappropriation was by modern Westerners. Sorry, if you don't feel 'vidicated' yet. Perhaps it's because your sorryass was debunked here and here Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Professor James said the Greeks sole it. You dismiss him as "silly" and that Greek classical philosophy was "home grown". You have yet to back up your claims. Thank you again for showing us how much a pu$$y you are. Oh btw, in keeping with exposing your f*** ups, this thread shows just how "great" your late Yurco was! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Does everyone understand that James' title Stolen Legacy is in reference to later historians erroneously labeling Aristotles' students compiling the traditional Sophia or Wisdom of the Egyptians.
Any other claim as to what James means is spurious and results from not reading what James himself explains is meany by the phrase 'stolen legacy.'
Of course everyone but you does not refuse to understand the above-- that the Greeks did not 'steal' anything from the Egyptians. It was later Westerners who misappropriated it. And as for 'homegrown' I was referring to philosophical schools of Classical times not the older archaic traditions which do indeed come from Egypt.
So stop with the SAME TIRED B*TCHING LIES.
As for your ad-hominem attacks (due to your inadequate frustrations), a pu$$y gets screwed and by d*cks. That sounds more like yourself does it not.
If you want to get drilled like the worn out c*nt that you are, come back here or here! Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Oh please bitch, stop hiding behind Great Jew's posts. If you were really interested in that thread you would have answered his challenge re "Greek" Classical philosophy directed at you. [posted 14 January, 2009 07:00 PM]
Recap:
quote:Professor James said the Greeks stole it. (p.14) You dismissed him as "silly" [you undercover racist bitch] and that Greek classical philosophy was "home grown". You have yet to back up your claims. Thank you again for showing us how much a pu$$y you are. Oh btw, in keeping with exposing your f*** ups, this thread shows just how "great" your late Yurco was!
LOL Your frustrated ad-hominems don't end, and neither does your projection.
I don't hide behind anyone or anything. I merely cited and accurate acessment from Takruri on your 'Stolen Legacy', which is correct. The Greeks did NOT "steal" anything from the Egyptians since first of all they were adamant on which of their texts were of foreign (Egyptian or otherwise) origin and because of it was foreign they really had no favor of it.
But you like all stubborn jackasses hates to admit error but repeat your nonsense.
quote:If you were really interested in that thread you would have answered his challenge re "Greek" Classical philosophy directed at you. [posted 14 January, 2009 07:00 PM]
directed at me, or YOU. LOL
quote:Recap:
SAME SH*T FROM THE SAME A$$
So how about you stop hiding behind your cyber facade as a black 'afrocentric' you stupid wap and confront your worstfear! Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I merely cited and accurate acessment from Takruri on your 'Stolen Legacy', which is correct. The Greeks did NOT "steal" anything from the Egyptians
How the hell do you know if its an "accurate" statement you tongue tying bigot?! You NEVER read the damn book! You dismissed it out of hand as "silly" remember?
Now you "agree" with great Jew's take on a book, you never read, but declined (more appropriately RAN from) his challenge to you on the question of the authenticity of "Greek" Classical philosophy. You're a god damn mole!
This is why you have to end up apologising for your "contradictions" (read: racist slip ups) because you're a f****** fraud who exposes himself every now and then! LOL
Posted by The_Killer_Wolofi (Member # 16624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^LMFAO!! The lingua franca for west Africans was Arabic the same as how Latin was for northern Europe (in both cases, neither region had developed written languages before they adopted one). West Africa had urban centers at Djenne-Jeno, Nok, Ife, etc, before northern Europe even entered the dark ages, let alone before they built cities and left their caves. Mali was larger than all of western Europe combined.
""European travelers in the sixteenth century were impressed with the African kingdoms of Timbuktu and Mali, already stable and organized at a time when European states were just beginning to develop into modern nations."" - Howard Zinn
Ancient Greeks attributed intelligence to Blacks and slow-wits to Barbarian whites, considering themselves as intermediates.
"The Ethiopians, being in all else wiser than other men," invented astrology and taught it to the Egyptians - Lucian
The races that live in cold regions and those of Europe are full of courage and passion but somewhat lacking in skill and brainpower - Aristotle
Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards…The complexion of courage is between the two." - Aristotle
^^Greeks linked intelligence but cowardice to the dark south, and bravery but dull-wittedness to the white north.
"Now while the southern peoples are of acute intelligence and infinite resource, they give way when courage is demanded because their strength is drained away by the sun; but those who are born in colder regions by their fearless courage are better equipped for the clash of arms, yet by their slowness of mind they rush on without reflection, and through lack of tactics are balked of their purpose" - Vitruvius Polio
West Africans had more respect among Arabs and all other peoples outside of Europe than northern Europeans did..
They (whites) lack keenness of understanding and clarity of intelligence, and are overcome by ignorance and dullness, lack of discernment, and stupidity." - Sa'id al-Andalusi
So the Lucian quote is saying Egyptians weren't black? Why separate the two when Ethiopians just meant "black" to the Greeks back then?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^^Pray-tell, where does Lucian say such a thing? "Aethiopian" didn't mean "black", Wolofi, it was a general reference to those closest to the sun i.e., "burnt faced" people. The word black, or "melas" was used to describe both populations. Why would you ignore Aristotle (who is cited in the same post) in favor of a loosely distorted interpretation of Lucian?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Not to mention that the Greeks also used the label 'Aethiopians' for the Canaanites of the Levant.
Posted by The_Killer_Wolofi (Member # 16624) on :
So now you are espousing the Hamitic theory about Canaanites being cursed and that they were blacks Djehuty?
Hmmm maybe you are a covert racist on here, I will watch you more closely.
Have you ever thought that Aethiops just means dark skinned and not black skinned Djehuty?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And exactly where in Biblical texts did it say Canaanites were cursed to be black??!! As I recall, the Canaanites as Hamites or children of Ham were black from birth an inheritance from their father who in Hebrew myths is the father of black peoples the same way Japheth is the father of white peoples with his Japhethite children being white.
Your knowledge of Biblical tales obviously comes from white racism and not the actual texts themselves. Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Those Hebrew Myths were heavily influenced (but never acknowledged hence another stolen legacy) by AE as were ancient "Greek" classical philosophy. Both of which you deny Mary so as to maintain your classical western civilisational purity.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards…The complexion of courage is between the two." - Aristotle
The "excessively white" in the above referred to women and not to "those" as you write above.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by gapingass: Those Hebrew Myths were heavily influenced (but never acknowledged hence another stolen legacy) by AE as were ancient "Greek" classical philosophy. Both of which you deny Mary so as to maintain your classical western civilisational purity.
Actually, the majority of influence on Hebrew myths come from Mesopotamia but of course there was some Egyptian influence as well. This was never denied, however I recall on a past thread your attempts to show this Egyptian influence was rather pathetic. And of course Greek philosophy was influenced by Egypt as I never denied it but this influence predates Classical times. So no, I don't support Mary Lefkowitz nor have I ever professed any claims to 'Western' civilization "purity"-- again false claims YOU attribute to me! So please stop lying or projecting your fears of a little ol' Jewish lady on me. Ironic you fear an old Jewish lady but not the countless men who have their way with you everyday! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards…The complexion of courage is between the two." - Aristotle
Yes, I've read this quote by Aristotle many times before. I wonder what SirInfamous an alleged Greek has to say about this and other writings from his ancient ancestors which blatantly described the Egyptians as 'black'. Yet according to him the label is a U.S. socio-political phrase! LOL Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I recall on a past thread your attempts to show this Egyptian influence was rather pathetic.
You claim to have read the "silly book" but it is obvious you were lying as you claim the thieves were later historians when James did in fact point to the Greeks. Also, the fact that you merely cut and paste Lefkowitz's "review" re the Alexandrian library spin exposed you, Mary. Even Great Jew called you out on insulting this great black scholar, you little duck egg-eating Filipino ****. lol
But it is rather interesting to see you now admit "some Egyptian influence" on Hebrewism when in that very thread you steadfastly denied any AE influence whether monotheism (even Freud is more honest than your shitty ass on this), or AE prototypes for the Ark of Covenant. Even the commonalities you grudgingly acknowledge you denied any AE influence, you attributed it to mere coincidence.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards…The complexion of courage is between the two." - Aristotle
The "excessively white" in the above referred to women and not to "those" as you write above.
Straw man..
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote: Please cite actual evidence then that Socratic irony and the Socratic method are somehow 'stolen' from Egypt. Please show evidence that Platonic realism was stolen from Egypt, or the Organon was Egyptian but stolen by Aristotle. And I want real evidence and NOT some link to an Afrocentric book on stolen legacies. Link.
^ Here you not only showed your ignorance of the very Greek Philosophers you defend (e.g. realism is traced to Aristotle not Plato you dumbass ( )) but you tried to argue, in standard Eurocentric fashion, that scientific inquiry, reasoning and logic started with the Greeks and could not possibly be traced back to AE who you portrayed throughout the thread as "cultists" and mere polytheists who worshipped winged creatures and the like. This is classic Eurocentric stereotyping of AE and the fact that you echo it only shows that you are indeed Mary, Mary. Also, notice how in dismissing Prof. James' book (the one you never read) you equate Afrocentricity (read: black scholarship) with not "real" or "actual" evidence. Seems you're not that different from anti-black Yonis Mary. At least he honest which is more than what we can say for your weasel ass.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Djehuti wrote:
''I recall, the Canaanites as Hamites or children of Ham were black from birth an inheritance from their father who in Hebrew myths is the father of black peoples the same wayJapheth is the father of white peoples with his Japhethite children being white.''
Well some had better hope these stories remain myths because white skin came about 6-12,000 years ago according to. And I do recall humans left Africa wayyy before that as black folks—not white.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Those stories ARE myths-- religious stories that serve as explanations for the way things are. That particular myth attempts to cite the common ancestry between the various peoples the Hebrews knew and how they relate to each other. Like all myths there *is* some truth to it-- namely the fact that all groups of people descend from common ancestors. It just so happens these ancestors were in actuality Africans. And whatever great flood that did occur in Genesis happened well after the globe was populated by humans.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Djehuti said: ''Those stories ARE myths-- religious stories that serve as explanations for the way things are.''
I don't know what is myth or not but how is it you *know* they are myths? Has this been proven by archaeologists? What criteria did they use to say they are and not to be accepted? Are there reputations at stake when they pause and pull back the hat and scratch their head?
''Like all myths there *is* some truth to it-- namely the fact that all groups of people descend from common ancestors''.
I wasn't aware that was exclusive property of the good Book. If humans originated from *one* source, the origin, in Africa, then how do we arrive at common ancestors?
quote:''And whatever great flood that did occur in Genesis happened well after the globe was populated by humans.''
So you pick and choose your myths I see. Can you get any scientist to agree to a world wide flood like the Bible says? Other than a creationist scientist? That is what you meant by the ''great flood''?
Posted by ackee (Member # 16371) on :
@ Grumman, I just saw a documentary about the flood, If I remember correctly at about 8000 B.C a great landslide off a mountain into the sea in southern Italy and caused a tsunami around the mediterranean basin,the resulting rise in sea levels traveled up to 100 miles inland in some places.Memories of which was past down from generation to generations untill finaly codified. But a Really world wide tsunami would require an astroid crashing in the ocean.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: I don't know what is myth or not but how is it you *know* they are myths? Has this been proven by archaeologists? What criteria did they use to say they are and not to be accepted? Are there reputations at stake when they pause and pull back the hat and scratch their head?
I already told you what a myth was! By definition a myth is a story usually of religious intent used to explain something. A myth is not necessarily a 'lie'. The equation of myth with lie began in the 'Enlightment Age' to dismiss religious stories as nonsense. But the problem is all myths have some truth to it.
quote:I wasn't aware that was exclusive property of the good Book. If humans originated from *one* source, the origin, in Africa, then how do we arrive at common ancestors?
Of course the myth of human origins isn't confined to Israelite or Biblical myths alone but almost all relgions around the world share a similar belief. As for your second question, I dont understand it. Humans do come from one source hence, common ancestors. What the heck do you mean?
quote:So you pick and choose your myths I see. Can you get any scientist to agree to a world wide flood like the Bible says? Other than a creationist scientist? That is what you meant by the ''great flood''?
No, I don't pick and choose myths. All myths are simply myths to me whether they are Biblical or not. Also, the Bible never actually said a flood engulfed the whole world. The actual Hebrew word used-- eretz-- is a word that means 'earth' in the general as in land or planet. It's likely used in the former as in a great flood in engulfed the land.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Ackee reference's, ''...at about 8000 B.C a great landslide off a mountain into the sea in southern Italy and caused a tsunami around the mediterranean basin,the resulting rise in sea levels traveled up to 100 miles inland in some places.''
Greece probably would have taken the brunt of the rising sea waters, possibly Libya and Egypt depending on which direction the initial movement of water. So without knowing what a geologist would say I don't think it possible a landslide from a mountain could sustain water levels to rise that far away into the Biblical middleast to cause any significant recall from the population to warrant codification. Now if it was an undersea earthquake the size of the one in Indonesia in December 2004 which it is said, the earthquake, to have stretched for 700 miles then that would warrant significant recall I think. But still not to the levels of the mountains of Ararat story.
An asteroid a mile wide hitting the Atlantic off the coast of Spain wouldn't do the trick either, in my opinion, at least not enough to cover the earth as the Bible says. Besides the Bible says it rained 40 days and 40 nights so local flooding at least must have taken place. On the other hand the Bible says all the mountains were covered. I'm thinking some of those folks thought hills may have been mountains; maybe, maybe not. Even so Mount Ararat is the highest in the region at 16,945 feet and it was covered according to the Bible.
Djehuti, you said,
''Humans do come from one source hence, common ancestors. What the heck do you mean?''
This is what you said:
namely the fact that *all groups* of people descend from *common ancestors.*
So you are saying there were several groups in Africa, or is it a single solitary source and out of that solitary source came every group? Is this what you mean?
If you intended it to mean solitary source isn't this some creation talk?
''Also, the Bible never actually said a flood engulfed the whole world.''
But it did say that boat came to rest on the mountains of Ararat which is 16,945 feet high. Well if this is the mythical part to you then I will have to agree. Not because I can prove it didn't happen but I simply can't wrap myself around that belief, plus scientists say there is no geological evidence to say it happened.
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