quote: The Phoenician civilization flourished along the eastern coastlines of the Mediterranean Sea (the present-day coasts of Syria, Lebanon, and northern Israel) from approximately 2000 BC to 500 BC
"The Phoenicians likely referred to themselves as Canaanites."
The ancient Greeks were the originators of the term “Phoenicia,” which derives from an ancient Greek word (phoinikes) for the color purple.
Ish Gebor is there any negroid skulls dating from 2000 BC to 500 BC from present day lebanon?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
"Phoenician" is a generalized term WE use to identify the ORIGINAL people of the EASTERN Mediterranean coastal area, AFTER they were forced into the northern part of same, by new migrants like the Hebrews. They called themselves by their CITY name, just like the Greeks.
There are seven pages (with artifacts) in the "Canaan" section here:
this can be only confirmed if you can show me negroid skulls in Lebanon that date to 2000 bce to 500 bce
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: this can be only confirmed if you can show me negroid skulls in Lebanon that date to 2000 bce to 500 bce
You are obviously a pink assed little high schooler with a delusional sense of self. Nobody needs to prove anything to you little boy. If you want information, ask for it, humbly and respectfully. As to skulls, where is YOUR White skulls?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
To those actually interested in the answer to the question:
The Phoenician's are a group that All albinos fear to loose, because it causes their bogus histories to unravel.
The Albinos and Mulattoes of Syria and Lebanon claim their heritage. As do the Khazar Turks in Israel, so they allow next to nothing in the way of modern research to escape to the rest of the world, (similar to what the mulatto Turks of Egypt do).
That is also why questioner was so confident that skulls could not be produced.
However, work was done before the Khazar Turks shut it off to the world.
i already know about carthage and Hannibal being black this can be proven
but what about Phoenicia do you have any skull remains from lebanon that are negroid dating back to 2000 bce to 500 bce
this is a honest question i don't mean to offend
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] i already know about carthage and Hannibal being black this can be proven
what's the proof of that?
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians, yet you are looking for evidence of black Phoenicians
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: i already know about carthage and Hannibal being black this can be proven
but what about Phoenicia do you have any skull remains from lebanon that are negroid dating back to 2000 bce to 500 bce
this is a honest question i don't mean to offend
quote:the Khazar Turks in Israel, allow next to nothing in the way of modern research to escape to the rest of the world, (similar to what the mulatto Turks of Egypt do).
Which part of the above didn't you understand?
Anyway, I can't figure a way to make it any simpler: Oh I know, ask lioness. Yes, she will simply lie, but it will be a very simple lie.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Mrs lioness bertholon and chantre both mentioned negroid skulls in carthage so you cant deny the negro presence in Carthage
and the coin mike showed depicts Hannibal himself who is clearly a negro
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
this is a honest question i don't mean to offend [/qb][/QUOTE]
quote:the Khazar Turks in Israel, allow next to nothing in the way of modern research to escape to the rest of the world, (similar to what the mulatto Turks of Egypt do).
do you have proof of this?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Carthage was NOT “founded” by Phoenicians. It is a BS story made up by Europeans. Carthagians were built by indigenous Africans. These people of the ancient Levant, Carthage, Sardinia nad Estuscia aer from the same genetic and cultural stock. So they “appear’ similar. As Sergi, Coon and others pointed out through Anthropology, The original peoples of North Africa, Levant and areas of Southern Europe all came from the same “stock” start about 5000BC. All originating in Great Lakes Africa.
The genetic evidence emerging is now confirming these Anthroplogist were correct. Why? As Eva Fernanadez et al point out through aDNA. The vast majority current population of the Levant are NOT indigenous to the area.
[
QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] i already know about carthage and Hannibal being black this can be proven
what's the proof of that?
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians, yet you are looking for evidence of black Phoenicians [/QUOTE]
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
xyyman thank you for joining us
do you know any skull remains from lebanon that are negroid dating back to 2000 bce to 500 bce
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: this is a honest question i don't mean to offend
quote:the Khazar Turks in Israel, allow next to nothing in the way of modern research to escape to the rest of the world, (similar to what the mulatto Turks of Egypt do). do you have proof of this?
This is your last question, you are definitely getting on my nerves with your inane questions. Which I answer, only because there might really be people that dumb.
If the rest of the scientific community is busy trying to catalog the genetic and artifactual history of their countries, and the Khazar Turks who call themselves Jews produce nothing of the kind. Then it is safe to conclude that they do not want to divulge what they have discovered. Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
i ask the questions so i can separate fact from theory
i want documentation that supports your claim not conjectures
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am not joining because the question is infantile and a red herring as Mike pointed out. I am talking to the Lioness and his BS.
TP is a resident expert of skull types. take the lead from her/him. Tp can share inormation about the Natuffuians and such.
As for aDNA/DNA the original people of the Levant are best represented by the Bedoiuns. That is why they are included in ALL genetic studies of the area.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Negroids are found all over the world. From Australia,, Melenesia, India and even some American Tribes etc. But are they African?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
how can i find and contact "TP"
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am not joining because the question is infantile and a red herring as Mike pointed out. I am talking to the Lioness and his BS.
TP is a resident expert of skull types. take the lead from her/him. Tp can share inormation about the Natuffuians and such.
As for aDNA/DNA the original people of the Levant are best represented by the Bedoiuns. That is why they are included in ALL genetic studies of the area.
xyyman - It seems extreme to make such blanket statements about North African history.
I personally prefer more nuanced history like this:
From RH: "As Carthaginian power grew, its impact on the indigenous population increased dramatically. Berber civilization was already at a stage in which agriculture, manufacturing, trade, and political organization supported several states. Trade links between Carthage and the Berbers in the interior grew, but territorial expansion also resulted in the enslavement or military recruitment of some Berbers and in the extraction of tribute from others. By the early fourth century B.C., Berbers formed the single largest element of the Carthaginian army. In the Revolt of the Mercenaries, Berber soldiers rebelled from 241 to 238 B.C. after being unpaid following the defeat of Carthage in the First Punic War. They succeeded in obtaining control of much of Carthage's North African territory, and they minted coins bearing the name Libyan, used in Greek to describe natives of North Africa. The Carthaginian state declined because of successive defeats by the Romans in the Punic Wars."
The questions reminded me about a discussion I had(on ESR) with a poster on Ronaldo the Portuguese soccer player. This poster was hot and heavy about Ronaldo being white. At the time I was doing a piece on the Berbers of North Africa and their characteristic “features”. I have an idea, now, what a Berber look like. So I stated that Ronaldo looked like he has some Berber feature. I was ignorant on Ronaldo’s background at the time. Of course the poster thought I was nutzz. With A few google search I was proven right as usual. I wasn’t aware at the time he was labeled Nigz by some Europeans. That idiot poster could have done the same. Dogma!!!! Anyway, that is why I only debate my equals all others I teach. A few days ago while channel surfing I saw a piece on Ronaldo’s mother. She was a pale as any white European woman but carried the unmistakable trait of what I recognize as Berber. So the question is ..is she black, Negroid, African, European or all of the above. I saw what Sergi saw in these people.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Mike. I exam the physical evidence first like, archeology, anthroplogy, genetics etc . I don't rely on books written by liars. I can''t read or translate the original text. So, where does that leave me? Believe a Liar? Not if I have other evidence.
Posted by Fencer (Member # 22259) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: "Phoenician" is a generalized term WE use to identify the ORIGINAL people of the EASTERN Mediterranean coastal area, AFTER they were forced into the northern part of same, by new migrants like the Hebrews. They called themselves by their CITY name, just like the Greeks.
There are seven pages (with artifacts) in the "Canaan" section here:
Mike is 100% correct here. To be honest, from what I've read this seems to have been known for well over 100 years now. If anybody is trying to say otherwise they are history quacks with an agenda.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
BTW – Ronaldo mother is an indigene of the African Azores. She probably carries mtDNA L3.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Does anyone here know if there is any negroid skulls dating from 2000 BC to 500 BC from present day lebanon?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
[Looks like indigene Africans having a dispute about territory. Ala AE and “Nubians”? There is no genetic evidence that “Phoenicians” occupied Africa unless they are one and the same people. They left no genetic trait. Same for the “Greeks”. There is no genetic evidence of Greeks dominating Africa unless the Greeks had an African substrate. Ala Africans fighting amongst themselves.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: :
From RH: "As Carthaginian power grew, its impact on the indigenous population increased dramatically. Berber civilization was already at a stage in which agriculture, manufacturing, trade, and political organization supported several states. Trade links between Carthage and the Berbers in the interior grew, but territorial expansion also resulted in the enslavement or military recruitment of some Berbers and in the extraction of tribute from others. By the early fourth century B.C., Berbers formed the single largest element of the Carthaginian army. In the Revolt of the Mercenaries, Berber soldiers rebelled from 241 to 238 B.C. after being unpaid following the defeat of Carthage in the First Punic War. They succeeded in obtaining control of much of Carthage's North African territory, and they minted coins bearing the name Libyan, used in Greek to describe natives of North Africa. The Carthaginian state declined because of successive defeats by the Romans in the Punic Wars."
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Looks like indigene Africans having a dispute about territory. Ala AE and “Nubians”? There is no genetic evidence that “Phoenicians” occupied Africa unless they are one and the same people. They left no genetic trait. Same for the “Greeks”. There is no genetic evidence of Greeks dominating Africa unless the Greeks had an African substrate. Ala Africans fighting amongst themselves.
There is no doubt of that, and I do not argue anything to the contrary.
Posted by Fencer (Member # 22259) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Does anyone here know if there is any negroid skulls dating from 2000 BC to 500 BC from present day lebanon?
You're purposely being stupid aren't you? You can't use a poorly constructed classification of a group of people to determine that it surely defines them as a whole. Do ALL blacks have "negroe" skulls? Are all blacks "negroes"? To be black does one need "negroe" features? This is completely moronic scientific construction when you look at it for what it is. You ask for skulls, but what can that proove by itself? You guys always ask for this ambigious mess but you run from artifacts like paintings and documentation of descriptions.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
im asking a very simple question
Does anyone here know if there is any negroid skulls dating from 2000 BC to 500 BC from present day Lebanon?
i just want a answer to this question
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^It's best to ignore this fool. This is obviously a moronic version of the child's question: "Are We There Yet?".
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
mike111 i can see you don't have the answer to my question
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
quote: The Phoenician civilization flourished along the eastern coastlines of the Mediterranean Sea (the present-day coasts of Syria, Lebanon, and northern Israel) from approximately 2000 BC to 500 BC
"The Phoenicians likely referred to themselves as Canaanites."
The ancient Greeks were the originators of the term “Phoenicia,” which derives from an ancient Greek word (phoinikes) for the color purple.
xyyman is Ish Gebor "TP"?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Carthagians were built by indigenous Africans. These people of the ancient Levant,
The Levant is not in Africa. let us know when you say something that makes sense
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Mrs lioness bertholon and chantre both mentioned negroid skulls in carthage so you cant deny the negro presence in Carthage
the coin mike showed depicts Hannibal himself who is clearly a negro [/QB]
The Phoencians of what is now Lebanon founded Carthage. There they encountered North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
the coin mike showed depicts Hannibal
Why are you saying the coin Mike showed depicts Hannibal ?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the lioness Asia is not in Europe so whats your point?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
[/QUOTE]Why are you saying the coin Mike showed depicts Hannibal ? [/QB][/QUOTE]
because it was found near trasimene where Hannibal had his famous battle
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
It'll always amaze me how Lebanon, Palestine/Israel, Gaza, and Sinai are on the African Plate yet not in Africa.
Negro is an obnoxious term. Genetics confirm Central/west African-like autosomes in biblical era Levant as discussed here on ES a year or so ago. Moorjani2011 Price2009
Lachish provides a snapshot of a very narrow time and site skull set (see Risdon and Keita).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
Why are you saying the coin Mike showed depicts Hannibal ? [/QUOTE]
because it was found near trasimene where Hannibal had his famous battle [/QB][/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean the man depicted on the coin is Hannibal
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
That doesn't mean its not Hannibal either
you asked me why and i gave you the answer
unless you can prove that's not hannibal then i dont want to hear it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: That doesn't mean its not Hannibal either
you asked me why and i gave you the answer
unless you can prove that's not hannibal then i dont want to hear it
If threre is a coin depicting an unknown person or god why are you asking me to try to prove that it is not a particular person ?
That's like if you found and old chest and it was locked and you say to me "there's gold coins in that chest" and I say "how do you know that?" -and you say "prove that there's not gold coins in the chest" So if I can't prove that there's no gold coins in the chest you say that's proof that there are
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
if "trasimene" was "X mark the spot" on a treasure map and if a treasure map said there was "gold" near "x mark the spot" then i will assume that there is "gold" in the treasure chest by the "x mark the spot"
you cant prove me wrong unless you open the treasure chest (proof)
Anyways Hannibals last elephant was an indian elephant named surus which is depicted on this coin
Posted by Real tawk (Member # 20324) on :
be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk: be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
Yes and albino's don't do the same **** with ancient civilizations, such as saying the Ancient Babylonians and Sumerians and Mesopotamians and Indus valley people were Nordic aliens or ancient lost whites, right you lying albino degenerate scumback?
I call that sheer albino stupidity and buffoonery!
Posted by Real tawk (Member # 20324) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter:
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk: be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
Yes and albino's don't do the same **** with ancient civilizations, such as saying the Ancient Babylonians and Sumerians and Mesopotamians and Indus valley people were Nordic aliens or ancient lost whites, right you lying albino degenerate scumback?
I call that sheer albino stupidity and buffoonery!
Present any current widely accepted scholarly work that purports Babylonians, Sumerians and Mesopotamians and Indus Valley people are racially Nordic.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Real tawk
im not a eurocentric and im not a afrocentric
im truthcentric
i dont disagree with everything an afrocentric says and i dont disagree with everything an eurocentrc says you can find truth in both of them as well as false hood
im not here to make friends or enemies im here to learn and find the truth
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk: be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
.
All you really need to know, is that even though some of those people use skin lightener, they all invariably call you: "WHITE DEVIL!"
Posted by Real tawk (Member # 20324) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk: be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
.
All you really need to know, is that even though some of those people use skin lightener, they all invariably call you: "WHITE DEVIL!"
And you'd be amazed at the plethora of derogatory names they have for your ilk, Mikey.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The point is tawk, you, like most Albinos, delusionally thought that Indians, Mongols, Turk mulattoes (aka Arabs), etc, identified with YOU, Wanted to be like YOU.
Haven't you noticed how often they try to destroy YOU, and everything associated with YOU?
As to the issue of Blackness:
Please note how these people were before you fuched with their minds:
The travels of Marco Polo ("The description of the world) translated by A.C. Moule & Paul Pelliot" (1938)
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Ish Gebor is there any negroid skulls dating from 2000 BC to 500 BC from present day lebanon?
"negroid skulls" What it hat supposed to mean?
Contributions to the Anthropology of the Near East
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: xyyman is Ish Gebor "TP"?
The name TP, Troll Patrol was temporary. The actual name is "Ish Gebor."
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk: be careful, the questioner. Afrocentrists paint with a broad brush when using the term "Black." It is a backdoor or "trojan horse" method to lay hold on history and legacies of Non-Africans; "culture-vultures."
Afrocentrists define race solely on a superficial trait, ie, black skin. They equate racially and indirectly an Asian with dark skin and a Black person (African) based on how they use the word "black." In order to effect this, ACs identify dark skin of Asians as "black." Thus they draw a link between dark skin people and Africans, racially. It's what I call, 'Afro-tricknowledgy.'
.
All you really need to know, is that even though some of those people use skin lightener, they all invariably call you: "WHITE DEVIL!"
And you'd be amazed at the plethora of derogatory names they have for your ilk, Mikey.
Yep, I've been telling this to Doxie and ilk for a long time now. Yet, Doxie complains about a word such as albino? Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
You would think some art made by Phoenicians would be shown
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You would think some art made by Phoenicians would be shown
Nothing is stopping you.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
It depends in what ethnic group you are looking for. Africans are diverse, did you know that.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
ive notice in some of the Phoenician art that is depicted in the nimrud ivories have negroid features
but no sign of negroid skulls i find this strange
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ive notice in some of the Phoenician art that is depicted in the nimrud ivories have negroid features
but no sign of negroid skulls i find this strange
I am going to ask you again, what negroid skulls are you refering at?
What you showed is segmented. First rule, from where was that supposed "negroid skull" you posted about? It doesn't speak for the general population. That is what I find strange. Even funnier is that you create a segregation then call it negroe.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
A typical negroid skull from Sub-Saharan Africa
that fulani is the exception and not the rule
where is this picture of skulls from?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: A typical negroid skull from Sub-Saharan Africa
where is this picture of skulls from?
What is a "typical skull" from the sub Sahara, that is what I am asking. I have shown you sub Sahara Africans and skulls, in the previous posts. How come it did not match your gullible post? Why it the Fulani an exception? Why denial their existence?
What I asked was, what is the ethicgroup of the skull you've posted.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Come-on Ish, questioner is a troll with a juvenile sense of humor, let it go.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Come-on Ish, questioner is a troll with a juvenile sense of humor, let it go.
It's not humor, I am very serious here. That's the point.
Rule one, let's trace ethnic backgrounds. We can take it from there.
There is something called human cremation. I think Phoenicians did just so.
Posted by Real tawk (Member # 20324) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: A typical negroid skull from Sub-Saharan Africa
that fulani is the exception and not the rule
where is this picture of skulls from?
I think you're referring to the Congoid skull, which accurately represents the Subsaharan stock.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Real tawk:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: A typical negroid skull from Sub-Saharan Africa
that fulani is the exception and not the rule
where is this picture of skulls from?
I think you're referring to Congoid skull which accurately represents the Subsaharan population.
You are delusional and dumb. What's new? How is Congo representative for all sub Sahara African ethnic groups? LOL SMH
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Ish Gebor all fulanis don't have those features that you posted
those African men you posted are the rule notice their features
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Ish - Now really????
You really didn't know that this fool was working toward the "True Negro" Albino created Myth?
Well here:
This is a "True Negro"
All others are "Dark Caucasians".
He,he,he,he:
Aren't Albinos totally ridiculous?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Ish - Now really????
You really didn't know that this fool was working toward the "True Negro" Albino created Myth?
Well here:
This is a "True Negro"
All others are "Dark Caucasians".
He,he,he,he:
Aren't Albinos totally ridiculous?
Well, she is exceptionally prognathic. Most sub Sahara Africans don't share those extreme characteristics. So yes, you're right.
However, it's remarkable that the first Europeans did share those characteristics.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Ish Gebor all fulanis don't have those features that you posted
those African men you posted are the rule notice their features
Of course not, nor did I claim so. That is why I am asking you what you are referring at? See, it's complex matter. Those men aren't the rule btw. Maybe on your TV screen, but that's about it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Malta, a Phoenician skeleton and burial in an urn displayed at the Archeological Museum at the Citadel, Rabat, Gozo.
The skeleton used to remodel the 2,500-year-old man from Byrsa, rebaptised Ariche -- meaning the desired man --, is seen during an exhibition at the American University of Beirut on January 30, 2014. Ariche has regained an almost living human appearance very close in physiognomy to a Carthaginian of the 6th century B.C. after a dermoplastic reconstruction undertaken in Paris by Elisabeth Daynes, a sculptor specialising in hyper-realistic reconstructions. Repatriated to Tunisia on September 24, 2010, Ariche is now on show in Lebanon, the land of the Phoenicians who founded Carthage
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the lioness what evidence do they have that this is a Phoenician?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Ish Gebor the pictures you posted show negroid features
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness what evidence do they have that this is a Phoenician?
lioness??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness what evidence do they have that this is a Phoenician?
There are hundreds of Punic burials in Malta with artifacts
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
do they have proof that that they are punic?
understanding the history of malta there were different types of people living there
what makes them think they are not one of these other people?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: do they have proof that that they are punic?
understanding the history of malta there were different types of people living there
what makes them think they are not one of these other people?
Because these are burials where the bodies are arranged in a specific way with objects of the period. There is also plant matter from foods which can be dated
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
your talking about dates(which is another issue)
im talking about culture what cultural evidence do they have that they are phoenician/punic
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: your talking about dates(which is another issue)
im talking about culture what cultural evidence do they have that they are phoenician/punic
They have Phoenician objects that are associated with the bodies
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
How do they know they are Phoenician objects?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Questioner=Brandon=TRex?
As Mike said He is navigating to the "True Negro" skull in the Levant. lol!
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the lioness im still waiting for your reply
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: How do they know they are Phoenician objects?
I could start getting into what are purported to be Punic burial sites
But why do you assume that that there are Phoenician objects?
I have gone back over this thread and have changed my mind. Perhaps there were no Phoenicians. It could just be a myth like people from Atlantis.
I assumed when you said " is there any anthropological evidence of black Phoenicians ? " that there were Phoenicans but I got duped by your title.
My question is "" is there any evidence that the Phoenicians existed? "
For example if somebody asks me what type of bullet can kill a vampire? If I said "silver" I would be wrong since vampires don't exist.
Similalry I fell for your objects question. I cant answer a question where the question itself is in question.
Your questions assume that Phoenicians existed so you need to prove that before somebody gets into questions as to their blackness.
It's like if somebody says "how tall were the people from Atlantis" ? First they have to prove that Atlantis existed.
Your follow up questions in regard to the Phoenicans all point to questioning the evidence that the Phoenicans even existed.
So they undermine your own initial assumption.
So first things first. Not what type of bullet can kill a vampire. The first is do vampires exist? If they don't then questions about bullets and garlic are irrelevant.
Likewise if you are going to assume the Phoenicians might have been black you first need to prove that the Phoenicians existed. It's as simple as that.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
excellent question
do Phoenicians exist? perhaps they are lost in history
can anyone answer?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: excellent question
do Phoenicians exist? perhaps they are lost in history
can anyone answer?
The burden is on you to do the homework.
Stop being lazy. Find one paragraph pertaining to Phoenician artifcacts
Then question it.
You can say "how do we know" about anything.
"How do we know monkeys don't speak French? "
We don't since we have not encountered every monkey, It's possible 3 or 4 might speak French.
So we don't know anything abut anything
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Have you or any other person ever heard a monkey speak french? the answer to this question should be the answer to your question
were there "Phoenician letters" found on the objects?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Have you or any other person ever heard a monkey speak french? the answer to this question should be the answer to your question
So if a given person has not personally encountered something then a claim that something occured is false
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
its not false ....its a theory
were there "Phoenician letters" found on the objects?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Ish Gebor the pictures you posted show negroid features
They all differentiate and are only a minor example. The people cluster so of course you while find similarities. You have to look at the intermediate traits. Noone of them looked like the sarcastic image as was shown by Mike, on how eurocentric nutjobs look at it.
The supposed "negroid skull" with the wide nasal aperture you posted earlier on would fit this man, I have posted below, he obviously has an exceptional wide nose:
quote:Exhibition brings 'Erich' Phoenician to the land of ancestors
Archaeological Museum at the American University in Beirut organize an exhibition under the title "young Bersa" of the historic definition of Phoenician statue of a man from the city of Cartagena.
Arabs Array [published in 2014 \ 02 \ 03]
BEIRUT "Erich" Phoenician young man from the city of Carthage, lived in the sixth century BC, can be identified him through a statue reconfigures its body in an exhibition titled "Young Bersa" organized by the Museum of Archaeology at the American University in Beirut, and continues until 26 February.
The name means "Erich" in Phoenician boy dear and beloved, the statue was carried out in a French laboratory in Paris identically Phoenician for a man of Carthage, aged between 19 and 24 years, standards and fine detail all the members of his body ranges.
The sculpture was designed from restoration of the skeleton of a young man, "Erich" and composition, using a technique heal the skin. The French specialist took effect in this area and sculptor Elizabeth Dennis.
Director of the Museum of the American University in Beirut Leila Badr and Troy that "the structure of 'Erich' skeleton found in 1994, when he was kept Carthage Museum wants to tree planting versus Bersa museum on the hill."
She adds, "having been dug about four meters, have been found on the two graves, first it's for" Erich "skeleton with some of the holdings, and the second was empty, indicating that he was not married because he usually bury the pair together with his wife. The second possibility is a link to another man his wife after his death and have been buried with him. " The statue was displayed in the Museum of Carthage in the year 2012.
Badr and waited for the completion of the currently brought in to Beirut after the approval of the Director of the museum, tanker him as saying, "It is very natural that travels" Erich "First to the land of his ancestors" in reference to the Phoenicians who lived in Lebanon.
Skeleton "Erich" which was discovered in 1994 And Carthage in Tunisia, which lies on the northern coast of Africa, built by left daughter of the king of Tyre (southern Lebanon for now) in the year 814 BC, and was known population of commerce and agriculture.
The length of the statue "Erich" 170 cm long, strong and apparently wearing a brown robe of white linen tip knitted purple color that the Phoenicians Astkhrgeonh coincidence of Murex.
He wears a Roman-style shoe, and holds a rosary in his hand, hanging pendant from his neck. It is oblong skull, a narrow face, with a long and delicate nose. Bader says in this regard, "the rosary is a talisman symbolizing the triumph of good over evil and life after death, Inspired Phoenicians of Egyptian civilization."
Show anthropological study carried out by the specialist in anthropology Tunisian Arrows Rodsla aluminous on the skeleton of this young man, it is a noble family, belongs to a social group were not practicing manual work such as agriculture and construction, and that the cause of death in this age remains unknown.
And "Erich," which tops the exhibition hall in the museum around it round, visitors, Badr and draws their reaction to the positive Rose says "standing in front of stunned because it seems alive and looking at him with great admiration because they see it as their ancestors."
It called Badr out that the exhibition opens fisherman from Tyre named Mikhael was subjected to DNA analysis (DNA) showed results that this sea has the genes close to the Phoenician genes, and submitted Bader as a destination "Erich" Carthaginian, due to the great similarities between them.
It should be noted that the American University Museum includes traces back to pre-history up to the Islamic eras of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, spread over several categories, including sculptures and mosaics and pottery, coins and others.
Assyria had a long tradition of maintaining economic contacts with the Phoenician city-states but its westward expansion resulted in increasingly closer relations: while Tyre in particular benefited from Assyria's protection and preferential treatment, the representatives of the Assyrian Empire did not hesitate to intervene directly in its affairs when they saw fit.
it seems to me that it is only theory that the so called "erich" is a Phoenician
nothing really to prove the objects are Phoenician or that the man is phoenician
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: it seems to me that it is only theory that the so called "erich" is a Phoenician
nothing really to prove the objects are Phoenician or that the man is phoenician
Cremation and social memory in Iron Age Phoenicia, Hommage Xella, 2013
Cremation and social memory in Iron Age Phoenicia
Up to 2009 a total of 278 cremation urns have been identified in the cemetery of Tyre-Al Bass, the most densely occupied Phoenician necropolis known in Lebanon.1 The rite of cremation is totally dominant and the funerary area was used as an adult necropolis over several generations during the so-called Iron Age II (ca. 900–600 BCE), with the highest concentration of burials dated to the 9th and 8th centuries BCE (Fig. 1).
There is little information available concerning the origin and spread of the practice of cremation in Phoenician cemeteries. There is also a tendency to see cremation as a rite that is opposed and antagonistic to inhumation. However, cremation and inhumation share many features. In the adoption of one rite or the other, various socio-cultural factors come into play; it isn’t always a matter of “fashion” or different religious beliefs, as has long been claimed (2).
The treatment of the body of the deceased is a response to a conscious and deliberate cultural and social decision, a choice dictated by ideological imperatives that are very difficult to explain exclusively on the basis of the archaeological record or changes in religious beliefs. To set cremation and inhumation in opposition for religious or ethnic reasons is extremely risky, not to mention the diffusionist background that frequently underlies many of these models. Mortuary rites are not static, they are subject to innovations, they evolve continuously and develop countless regional variations. Even greater variability is seen in the rite of cremation than in inhumations (3). Thus in Carthage, in the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, various differentiated groups of incinerations are observed—Junon, Douïmes, Byrsa—with many elements in common but also with appreciable typological and spatial differences (4). https://www.academia.edu/4961655/Cremation_and_social_memory_in_Iron_Age_Phoenicia_Hommage_Xella_2013 Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
did not answer my question about the Phoenician objects in "erich" grave
interesting information about "Phoenician" cremation but can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: did not answer my question about the Phoenician objects in "erich" grave
interesting information about "Phoenician" cremation but can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
It's funny how you keep asking questions, yet have nothing to contribute.
Google Books gave me 4.160 hits on "Phoenician cremation". Perhaps you'll find some references there.
The Iron Age II – Persian Period Transition: The Significance of Cremation in the Phoenician Mortuary Record
"it seems to me that it is only theory that the so called "erich" is a Phoenician"
I'm not sure what you mean? "Lessing, Erich, photographer (born 1923). Where did it state that "erich" is a Phoenician"?
Ps my purpose wasn't to answer your question on objects in "erich grave". But to analyze "Phoenician burials", since I don't know anything on "erich grave". But from the references we now know the Phoenicians were called the Canaanite.
Paleo- anthropological studies indicate that the twin urns contain the cremated remains of the same individual. One of the urns contains the ashes of the deceased; in the other, the deceased’s blackened bones are mixed with his or her personal possessions. It is therefore obvious that, once the funeral pyre was extinguished and the cremation of the deceased concluded, a careful sifting of the remains took place in order to separate the ashes from the bones. The third type of burial consists of large groupings of urns found superimposed or leaning against each other, thus forming a horizontal development of the burial space. In almost every case, these clusters consist of several double-urn graves (fig. 8).
quote: Ancient Carthaginians really did sacrifice their children
A collaborative paper by academics from institutions across the globe, including Oxford University, suggests that Carthaginian parents ritually sacrificed young children as an offering to the gods.
The paper argues that well-meaning attempts to interpret the 'tophets' – ancient infant burial grounds – simply as child cemeteries are misguided.
And the practice of child sacrifice could even hold the key to why the civilisation was founded in the first place.
The research pulls together literary, epigraphical, archaeological and historical evidence and confirms the Greek and Roman account of events that held sway until the 1970s, when scholars began to argue that the theory was simply anti-Carthaginian propaganda.
The paper is published in the journal Antiquity.
Dr Josephine Quinn of Oxford University's Faculty of Classics, an author of the paper, said: 'It's becoming increasingly clear that the stories about Carthaginian child sacrifice are true. This is something the Romans and Greeks said the Carthaginians did and it was part of the popular history of Carthage in the 18th and 19th centuries.
'But in the 20th century, people increasingly took the view that this was racist propaganda on the part of the Greeks and Romans against their political enemy, and that Carthage should be saved from this terrible slander.
'What we are saying now is that the archaeological, literary, and documentary evidence for child sacrifice is overwhelming and that instead of dismissing it out of hand, we should try to understand it.'
The city-state of ancient Carthage was a Phoenician colony located in what is now Tunisia. It operated from around 800BC until 146BC, when it was destroyed by the Romans.
Children – both male and female, and mostly a few weeks old – were sacrificed by the Carthaginians at locations known as tophets. The practice was also carried out by their neighbours at other Phoenician colonies in Sicily, Sardinia and Malta. Dedications from the children's parents to the gods are inscribed on slabs of stone above their cremated remains, ending with the explanation that the god or gods concerned had 'heard my voice and blessed me'.
Dr Quinn said: 'People have tried to argue that these archaeological sites are cemeteries for children who were stillborn or died young, but quite apart from the fact that a weak, sick or dead child would be a pretty poor offering to a god, and that animal remains are found in the same sites treated in exactly the same way, it's hard to imagine how the death of a child could count as the answer to a prayer.
'It's very difficult for us to recapture people's motivations for carrying out this practice or why parents would agree to it, but it's worth trying.
'Perhaps it was out of profound religious piety, or a sense that the good the sacrifice could bring the family or community as a whole outweighed the life of the child.
'We have to remember the high level of mortality among children – it would have been sensible for parents not to get too attached to a child that might well not make its first birthday.'
Dr Quinn added: 'We think of it as a slander because we view it in our own terms. But people looked at it differently 2,500 years ago.
'Indeed, contemporary Greek and Roman writers tended to describe the practice as more of an eccentricity or historical oddity – they're not actually very critical.
'We should not imagine that ancient people thought like us and were horrified by the same things.'
The backlash against the notion of Carthaginian child sacrifice began in the second half of the 20th century and was led by scholars from Tunisia and Italy, the very countries in which tophets have been found.
Dr Quinn added: 'Carthage was far bigger than Athens and for many centuries much more important than Rome, but it is something of a forgotten city today.
'If we accept that child sacrifice happened on some scale, it begins to explain why the colony was founded in the first place.
'Perhaps the reason the people who established Carthage and its neighbours left their original home of Phoenicia – modern-day Lebanon – was because others there disapproved of their unusual religious practice.
'Child abandonment was common in the ancient world, and human sacrifice is found in many historical societies, but child sacrifice is relatively uncommon. Perhaps the future Carthaginians were like the Pilgrim Fathers leaving from Plymouth – they were so fervent in their devotion to the gods that they weren't welcome at home any more.
'Dismissing the idea of child sacrifice stops us seeing the bigger picture.'
can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
im waiting
just one little quote
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
@the questioner you will find that Ish Gebor understands about half of what she posts. What she does is if there is a specific question on a topic she will find a link or copy some text about the general topic, often not understanding what she is posting and severely lacking the ability to explain it or extract form it the pertinant information. She is a waste of time
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor you still didn't answer my question
can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
im waiting
just one little quote
You assume Phoenicians existed? On what basis ?
The evidence for cremation is phyical evidence at burial sites. You don't need a Greek author to say they did it.
Have you studied the topic at all ? What have you read about it?
I listed some particular skeletal remains. Did you try looking into them to do for self?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor you still didn't answer my question
can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
im waiting
just one little quote
I answered you. Why you want people to do all the work for you? Are you really that lazy? I have a busy life and schedule.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the lioness Phoenicians are mentioned in antiquity so i assume they exist based on that
many ethnic groups practice cremation and there was many different ethnic groups who lived in Phoenicia how do we know its not one of these other groups?
none of what you posted support a Phoenician origin it is assumed to be phoenician origin
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor you still didn't answer my question
can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
im waiting
just one little quote
I answered you. Why you want people to do all the work for you? Are you really that lazy? I have a busy life and schedule.
if your not prepared to prove it don't bother showing me the post
i wanted this to be an intellectual topic for those who are interested in history and critical thinking about history not winning arguments
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @the questioner you will find that Ish Gebor understands about half of what she posts. What she does is if there is a specific question on a topic she will find a link or copy some text about the general topic, often not understanding what she is posting and severely lacking the ability to explain it or extract form it the pertinant information. She is a waste of time
Don't have some racially puere cacasoids to post, euronut?
When peolpe explain it in their own words, you'll ask for evidence, or simply dismiss it as untruth or even a lie. Dr. Clyde knows all about it.lol You delusional clown.
Btw, imposter black/ African American. I told you many times before I am of male gender. I am A MAN!!! Gees, you're dumb!
Lol at you contribution, by one of the biggest euronut of all time: "Elisabeth Daynes". In her lily white delusional world.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor you still didn't answer my question
can you pull a quote from an ancient author that states that Phoenicians practice cremation?
im waiting
just one little quote
I answered you. Why you want people to do all the work for you? Are you really that lazy? I have a busy life and schedule.
if your not prepared to prove it don't bother showing me the post
i wanted this to be an intellectual topic for those who are interested in history and critical thinking about history not winning arguments
What do I need to prove? LOL
I have shown artifacts etc... What have you shown? lol So much for your intellectuality. smh
I had over 4K hits on cremation and Phoenicians. lol
"in history and critical thinking about history".
Well, we now know that they cremated their bodies and were called Canaanites. Unless you have another "intellectual explanation"? ... Oh, I thought so....
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
how do they know the bodies were called Canaanites?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: how do you know the bodies were called Canaanites?
Because I have posted about it and read up papers? How about you? Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
so far i found out that no one on this topic can prove for a fact that any of the graves they found are Phoenician
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: so far i found out that no one on this topic can prove for a fact that any of the graves they found are Phoenician
Did you actaully read the papers I have posted, so far? Did you actually look up any of the 4K+ references, so far? Nope, I thought so.
It also could be they've never existed ... according to your theory.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: how do you know the bodies were called Canaanites?
Because I have posted about it and read up papers? How about you?
Good
then you should be able to show me how do you know they were called canaanites
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: how do you know the bodies were called Canaanites?
Because I have posted about it and read up papers? How about you?
Good
then you should be able to show me how do you know they were called canaanites
I already posted this. You need to scroll back one page, it's not that hard is it, or are you mentally slow?
It also could be they've never existed ... according to your theory.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: so far i found out that no one on this topic can prove for a fact that any of the graves they found are Phoenician
Did you actaully read the papers I have posted, so far? Did you actually look up any of the 4K+ references, so far? Nope, I thought so.
i did and no where on there did they prove that the cremated bodies found were called Canaanite
and you still didn't answer my question can you show me a quote from an ancient author that talks about Phoenicians practicing cremation?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: so far i found out that no one on this topic can prove for a fact that any of the graves they found are Phoenician
Did you actaully read the papers I have posted, so far? Did you actually look up any of the 4K+ references, so far? Nope, I thought so.
i did and no where on there did they prove that the cremated bodies found were called Canaanite
and you still didn't answer my question can you show me a quote from an ancient author that that states Phoenicians practicing cremation?
So you are telling me they did not show Urns, talked about 278 cremation urns?
You are telling me that all the references to cremation are false?
You keep askling me the same, which I already have posted. It's on the first page!!! Are you perhaps retarted?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Good work TP excellent resource as always .
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"So you are telling me they did not show Urns, talked about 278 cremation urns? [Big Grin]
You are telling me that all the references to cremation are false?"
no im asking you to prove Phoenicians practice cremation i never said it was false
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Good work TP excellent resource as always .
Well thx bro. I obviously have hurt some peoples feelings.
I once met a Moroccan chick years ago, she explained to me the whole supposed Phoenician connection to the "modern present day population" there, was based on a lie and political motives. Meaning the genetic study back then.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "So you are telling me they did not show Urns, talked about 278 cremation urns? [Big Grin]
You are telling me that all the references to cremation are false?"
no im asking you to prove Phoenicians practice cremation i never said it was false
I have shown what was written down. What part of this is still unclear? smh
I then looked for backup references, and I came up with over 4000 hits on Phoenicians and their cremations. I Snooped around and looked some books up here and there. On multiple occasions it was directed to a confirmation of these practices. Sorry!
however nothing too conclusive how do we know this is not a Greek or any other peoples grave who practice cremation?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ish gebor without a doubt there were Negroids in Spain but were they Phoenicians?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
What it hat supposed to mean? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
excellent resource as always .
