quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
You need to understand how fanatical white people think. Stop using wiki as your source. Here is another example. I frequent the Davidski blog because he scurries the web for new research papers. Saves me the time(wink). I do the same with Dienekess. But he caught on and don't post new stuff anymore. I have dismantled and debunked all his EuroCentric pseudoscience. I did the same with FTDNA, that site is now dead. When I poached Davidski site I got this paper. I did not read it right away but when I read some of the comments I knew something big had happened. Those Euronuts were fuming in anger about this paper. Eg comment quote(s):

Quotes
-------------
1. On Figure 1, they denoted Adygei as Indo-Europeans, lol.
2. Probably just a graphical error, but I wouldn't be surprised if they really thought that Adygei were Indo-Europeans.
3. we conclude that Brahui are an example of cultural (linguistic) retention following a major population replacement.
4. The Brahui are the only Dravidian-speaking population in Pakistan, where they are surrounded by Indo-European speakers, and are well separated from all other extant Dravidian-speaking populations who currently reside in southern India and parts of Sri-Lanka. (p.269
5. The hypothesis of the article that the Brahui have 3000 years old Dravidian roots in Pakistan is not supported by any of the available evidence.
6. In addition, the Brahui do display a genetic resemblance to some of the less African-admixed people of Iran's southeastern provinces.
7. Hopefully, they are not concluding that the Brahui are an Adygei/Yoruba or Adygei/Austo-Asiatic mix just based on some f3s, which even show other W Asian groups
8. Blogger Davidski said...yeah, I was too kind when I said this paper was "far from definitive". These authors have a lot to answer for when it comes to their work on South Asia
9. Also, a suggestion of a Yoruba-Adygei mix from 8000 years ago to form Brahui is not very sound...
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so....why were they so angry?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
You need to understand how fanatical white people think. Stop using wiki as your source. Here is another example. I frequent the Davidski blog because he scurries the web for new research papers. Saves me the time(wink). I do the same with Dienekess. But he caught on and don't post new stuff anymore. I have dismantled and debunked all his EuroCentric pseudoscience. I did the same with FTDNA, that site is now dead. When I poached Davidski site I got this paper. I did not read it right away but when I read some of the comments I knew something big had happened. Those Euronuts were fuming in anger about this paper. Eg comment quote(s):

Quotes
-------------
1. On Figure 1, they denoted Adygei as Indo-Europeans, lol.
2. Probably just a graphical error, but I wouldn't be surprised if they really thought that Adygei were Indo-Europeans.
3. we conclude that Brahui are an example of cultural (linguistic) retention following a major population replacement.
4. The Brahui are the only Dravidian-speaking population in Pakistan, where they are surrounded by Indo-European speakers, and are well separated from all other extant Dravidian-speaking populations who currently reside in southern India and parts of Sri-Lanka. (p.269
5. The hypothesis of the article that the Brahui have 3000 years old Dravidian roots in Pakistan is not supported by any of the available evidence.
6. In addition, the Brahui do display a genetic resemblance to some of the less African-admixed people of Iran's southeastern provinces.
7. Hopefully, they are not concluding that the Brahui are an Adygei/Yoruba or Adygei/Austo-Asiatic mix just based on some f3s, which even show other W Asian groups
8. Blogger Davidski said...yeah, I was too kind when I said this paper was "far from definitive". These authors have a lot to answer for when it comes to their work on South Asia
9. Also, a suggestion of a Yoruba-Adygei mix from 8000 years ago to form Brahui is not very sound...
------------------

so....why were they so angry?

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Part of the reason I'm asking the questions I am is because of my general skepticism of wiki. Also...what paper are we talking about from Daviski???

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
So the pre-historic pattern are being confirmed over and over and over again. The "meta-population" that FIRST left Africa, >40,000ya, radiated from Africa to the East Asia, North East and even Northern and Western Europe. Aesthetics(visuals) aside these were populations heavily related to modern Asians like Onge, Dravidians, East Asians, Native Americans. Keeping in mind KOS14 was closest related to Makrani. The second major wave occurred about 8-10,000ya. Also commencing from Africa. But they only conquered population in Western and Southern Europe. Further North and East they had less of an effect. That is why Finns and other North Europeans carry MORE ANE and East Asians carry less Basal Eurasians DNA. That is why East Asian also carry MORE Neanderthal and Denisovan "genes?". Keep in mind this has absolutely nothing to do with race or blue eyes and pale skin. The science of it is this "metapopulation" had black skin and black hair, some carried blue eyes. The skin phenotype entered Europe within these new migrating SSA Africans(Shriver et al etc). There are still some unanswered questions, like, what are the genes that made East Asians light skinned. Are they the same as modern Europeans. My guess is an emphatic ...no! my money is on ASIP. Similar to the Khoi-San. The African population with closest affinity to East Asians

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quote:

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further supporting the importance of OCA2 in regulating normal variation in pigmentation. The widespread distribution of the derived allele in the CEPH-Diversity Panel suggests that it is not necessarily a new mutation, nor has it been restricted to a specific geographic area. Interestingly, derived allele frequencies at this locus are quite different between Native American (15%) and East Asian populations (45%), suggesting that perhaps the derived allele at this locus did not reach very high frequencies in East Asians until after the colonization of the Americas.

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quote:

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Iirc, Rana or Rees or Mekova inferred /interpreted the pattern as “removal of constraint”. I will have to go back to my early postings on ESR. I believe I created a thread on it several years ago. Because of that statement I remember I challenged Swenet/Kalonji on pigmentation of Native Americans entering North America from Asia. Did they enter as dark or light skin? Why is that important and the significance? And why I don’t believe it is “slection” for light skin? Because Native American show the same pigmentation pattern as Africans. Darkest closest to the equator and lightest further away from the equator. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual preference or selection. It is the NATURAL order of things. So the follow-up question ..WHY? Why are Central Americans dark, if 1000 individuals of the same tribe(of the same pigmentation color – whichever) crossed into Alaska and migrated south. Did the native American women told the light skin men to stay behind. Lol! “Only blacks allowed” in Central America? Lol! You see how ridiculous this sexual preference theory is?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

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Iirc, Rana or Rees or Mekova inferred /interpreted the pattern as “removal of constraint”. I will have to go back to my early postings on ESR. I believe I created a thread on it several years ago. Because of that statement I remember I challenged Swenet/Kalonji on pigmentation of Native Americans entering North America from Asia. Did they enter as dark or light skin? Why is that important and the significance? And why I don’t believe it is “slection” for light skin? Because Native American show the same pigmentation pattern as Africans. Darkest closest to the equator and lightest further away from the equator. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexual preference or selection. It is the NATURAL order of things. So the follow-up question ..WHY? Why are Central Americans dark, if 1000 individuals of the same tribe(of the same pigmentation color – whichever) crossed into Alaska and migrated south. Did the native American women told the light skin men to stay behind. Lol! “Only blacks allowed” in Central America? Lol! You see how ridiculous this sexual preference theory is?

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Do They? and if they follow a pattern, how much of it is because of genetics?
The Amerindians entered america with the same amount of variation available to earlier East Asian populations followed by ensuing bottlenecks which was inferred by Rana's results having all 5 of the Amerindian sample scoring Homozygous for Arg163Gln, other than that I haven't seen any evidence for sweeping selection at the equatorial level. However, regardless of the genetics we will always see a correlation between UV exposed areas and local pigmentation, because of 2 things which I can't express how much they're overlooked. 1. Melanogenesis and 2. the Epigenome.

For Those unfamiliar with what those two things are as they relate to this discussion - Melanogenesis is the process & regulation for which we produce and localize melanosomes. A Laymen term for this is tanning, there are 4 collective stages to tanning, an immediate stage which produces grey pigment and happens so fast it is undetected, two intermediate stages which are the ones we're familiar with, one last for a day and the other lasts for 2 weeks or so based on prolonged sun exposure... the 4 stage though is referred to as permanent (though not necessarily permanent) and this can last for months even years knocking a subject's skin tone down multiple shades.
Epigenetics involves the regulation of genes through methylation and acetylation of regions located at a targeted loci. This can be a result of imprinting (being passed down from parents) or adaptation via environmental factors. for example you can have a subject with a permanent tan one side of their body due to prolonged UV exposure during developmental stages etc.
**NONE OF THESE TWO THINGS HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE GENETIC MAKEUP OF DNA.**

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
This is not really too difficult to understand.


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Quote:
Abstract: Ancient genomes have revolutionized our understanding of Holocene prehistory and, particularly, the Neolithic transition in western Eurasia. In contrast, East Asia has so far received little attention, despite representing a core region at which the Neolithic transition took place independently ~3 millennia after its onset in the Near East. We report genome-wide data from two hunter-gatherers from Devil’s Gate, an early Neolithic cave site (dated to ~7.7 thousand years ago) located in East Asia, on the border between Russia and Korea. Both of these individuals are genetically most similar to geographically close modern populations from the Amur Basin, all speaking Tungusic languages, and, in particular, to the Ulchi. The similarity to nearby modern populations and the low levels of additional genetic material in the Ulchi imply a high level of genetic continuity in this region during the Holocene, a pattern that markedly contrasts with that reported for Europe.

Siska et al., Genome-wide data from two early Neolithic East Asian individuals dating to 7700 years ago, Science Advances, 01 Feb 2017: Vol. 3, no. 2, e1601877, DOI: 10.1126/sciadv.1601877

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As I said before. The expansion of the Neolithic from Africa did NOT reach as far as East Asia. That is why there were only TWO(WHG/ENE and EEF) major population involved in the creation of modern Europeans reaching Harrapan Valley. The expansion did not reach East Asia. East Asians are basically ONE populations and NOT two as with modern Europeans

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quote:

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(1)Immediate pigment darkening (IPD), which develops in
minutes and can remain for several hours (Honigsmann et al., 1986; Routaboul et al., 1999),
is gray/black in color and is thought to be due to the direct effects of UV on existing melanin
or melanin precursors, perhaps oxidizing them to darker colors (Lim HW and Soter NA,
1993).
-
(2) Persistent pigment darkening (PPD), which occurs within hours and remains for
days (Moyal et al., 2000; Moyal et al., 2006) is thought to result from newly synthesized
melanin in the epidermis (Tadokoro et al., 2003; Tadokoro et al., 2005).
-
(3) Delayed pigmentation (DP), which develops in days and remains for weeks (Ortonne, 1990), results
from prolonged increases in melanin content (Miller et al., 2008; Brenner et al., 2009). (4)
Long-lasting pigmentation (LLP), which remains >9 months after initial UV exposure, results
from prolonged activation of the pigmentary system (Brenner et al., 2009; Coelho et al.,
2009).

---

quote:

---

Phenotypic assessment of melanin index (MI) across 1674 individuals from two distinct cohorts, Cohort A and Cohort B (see Materials and Methods; Tables 1, S1 and S2) demonstrated a wide variation in skin color (MI 28–79) in South Asia. Comparison with published datasets for the regions of the world revealed that the observed range in South Asians was three times greater than that in East Asians and Europeans and comparable to that of Southeast Asians (Table 1). Notably, Cohort A (n=1228) which included individuals from three closely related agricultural castes of Andhra Pradesh in South India, shows remarkable variation in skin color (MI 30–64), similar to heterogeneous pool of samples in Cohort B (MI 28–79)

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quote:

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Originally posted by The fool above:
@ xyyman

You've ignored rs642742/KITLG *G.

Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe were already depigmentating (becoming lighter skinned).

"Our estimates for the onset of selection at KITLG [30,000 years] are consistent with these findings, although more ancient dates (>40,000 years) cannot be excluded, due to uncertainty of age estimates." (Beleza et al. 2012)

So for example if you compared the skin colour of an average UP inhabitant from Europe, say 20,000 years ago, he/she would be lighter brown skinned than an actual black skinned person from the tropics.

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quote:

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Xyyman said:
Remember Shriver et al(see his work on Cape Verde) and others concluded that AMH probably left Africa with the capability of developing light skin. He speculated it was at the time of the FIRST OOA exit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Xyyman:

So the question is …WHY?.....Why didn’t these black Europeans develop light skin since they live in Europe close to 30,000 years. Even more puzzling is why didn’t their relative, Neanderthal, also turn light since Neanderthal live in Eurasia for over 300,000 years. Keeping in mind the genome of Neanderthal is now published revealing they carry ancestral alleles for skin pigmentation hair and eyes. They were also black.

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quote:

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Crackpot black supremacist
IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.

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My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.

La Brana 1


This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.

Genotypes of Stone Age Europeans (pigmentation SNPs)
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
LaBrana lacks the staple OCA2, Slc24a5 & Slc45a2 (and even MC1r) mutations recognized for European and even North African hipopigmentation. Though fixation has been observed in SSA populations for MC1r, SSAs still have the most diverse set of Melanin related SNPs. So naming 3 non exclusive SNPs in Labrana is pointless.

Now please, Stop...
I would rather us not go around the mulberry bush with you. It's counter productive.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@theReal
See my thread on ESR called "Other 'Negros'". That is my point. The "negros" outside of Africa like in Asia are closest genetically to "white" populations geographically closest to them and not African "negros". Why ...and how? Which came first? I know D'Denn speaks about a tropical belt across the Indian Ocean from Africa. That may be ONE of many explanation. But the more I read the more I am convinced that there was a land bridge somewhere in the Indian Ocean. This recent paper I read on mtDNA M adds further proof. The authors disclose the FACT is mtDNA M is Older East Asia, Madagascar, general southern and eastern regions than India. Concluding M did NOT originate in India. Now, since there is no VISIBLE land mass in the Indian Ocean they speculate that M travelled overland via Central Asia to East Asia then back to India. NONSENSE! With YDNA and Other MtDNA there is some unexplicable observation that the DNA on both sides of the Indian Ocean is very similar. This needs to be resolved.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
That is the problem with you have fanatics with their own motivation posting. They mis-guide and misdirect.

I just got back to this. As you said. Quote



Beleza et al. 2012
At the rs642742 SNP, the frequency of the KITLG*G derived allele in Africans is 7%, in contrast to the high frequencies found in Europeans AND East Asians (?80%)


So Paleolithic Africans were white @( KITLG*G derived allele in Africans is 7%,). Lol! I am Kidding of course.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
If these artist were honest and not fixated on making La Brana close to resembling modern Europeans....this is closer to La Brana.

If you had read the paper you would know based upon 1000's of SNP for La Brana ancient Europeans were closer to this....La brana.


 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
" This needs to be resolved. " xyyman

No bridge. Coracles. Inverted waterproof rainforest dome huts with long spear/punt pole. Replaced by dugout canoes(Papua) and taut-bundled rafts(Lake Tana) due to better propulsion.

India: arigolu = sun boat = coracle
Mbuti: mongolu = moon hut = coracle (inverted)

This I wrote at Sci.Anthropology.Paleo :

" Homo differentiated from Australopithecus by the adoption of leopard-proof water-proof rainforest ground-based dome huts=round shields, lifted on one side for entry/egress, while other side's sharp-tipped poles were jabbed into shallow post-holes and acted as a hinge, but which, when hut was flipped over, served as croc-proof bowl boats to cross rivers and other open water; a long spear was used to punt through shallow water and to pierce fish, ducks etc. and pry up water lily & sedge rhyzomes, and to knock kernels of wild rice into the basket hull, long before the advent of specialized watercraft such as dugout canoes or tautly bound rafts, which eventually replaced them due to faster lateral locomotive propulsion in most areas. "
- - -

I don't like white bashing.
I don't like black bashing.

BUT I really don't like Pygmy bashing.
(You aren't, of course.)

Pygmies are literally being squeezed to death by tall agricultural/industrial "humanity" closing in on all sides.

I'm not blaming. I'm saying, goddam, Everybody, give Pygmies some breathing room. And nobody's listening or even understands what I'm talking about. That's hard.

And That's why I separate Pygmies from "black". Because "black" (and all other) people are (unintentionally) destroying the only home they have, one they earn every single day and have, 'forever'.

No easy answers, but simple awareness helps.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I am other the impression that Cape Verde holds some answers. Again. The sea levels may have been much lower than is currently believed. We have aDNA of islands off the coast of Africa that these ancient individuals carried R1b-M269. What will the aDNA of Cape Verde tell us?




Quote:

NEWS

57% of genes in Cape Verdean population from Africa, 43% from Europe, according to Portuguese researcher
27 May 2010
“The Cape Verdean population is one of the most mixed in the world,” in which “57% of genes are of African origin and 43% of European origin.” This is the conclusion of the study “Genetic diversity in Cape Verde,” carried out by Jorge Rocha of the University of Porto’s Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology in Portugal.57% of genes in Cape Verdean population from Africa, 43% from Europe, according to Portuguese researcher
The researcher presented the results of the project, developed in cooperation with the University of Cape Verde, to the public this week. The study was aimed at characterizing Cape Verde’s biological diversity. According to the web site Ciência Hoje, “the islands are a meeting point of populations coming from various different and very diversified regions.”

Considering the fact that the archipelago was uninhabited when discovered????? and was subsequently colonized by individuals of European origin and slave laborers from adjacent regions of the African continent, Cape Verde turned into a melting pot of populations which, under other conditions, were greatly differentiated.

This amalgamation is visible in the human species on various levels, ranging from the biological to the cultural. Given that “an enormous quantity of biodiversity was generated or that the existing diversity was reorganized, many characteristics that had been separate appear blended,” stressed the researcher.

Fogo shows highest levels of miscegenation

Jorge Rocha also explained that the distribution of miscegenation may be evaluated on an island-by-island basis. The most African is the island of Santiago, which was the first to be colonized and was where the largest portion of slaves disembarked, even after other islands were already populated with mixed-race populations. The island showing the highest levels of miscegenation is Fogo, the second to be colonized by families coming from the local mixed-race aristocracy.

Most of the Europeans who settled in Cape Verde were of Portuguese origin, while most of the Africans came, in historic terms, from West Africa. The largest portion of Africans likely came from Mandinga peoples, who constitute one of the largest ethnic groups in West Africa.

What’s more, miscegenation almost always occurred between European men and African women,***** explained by**** the absence of European women during the initial colonization of Cape Verde.

Skin and eye color

One of the most evident characteristics of this miscegenation is skin color, which constitutes an essential part of the study on Cape Verde’s genetic diversity. In the archipelago’s mixed populations, there is a series of combined features that are NOT found together in other African or European populations!!!!!!!!!. This variation was studied in a quantified way by measuring pigmentation.”It is possible to elaborate a melanin index and study the distribution of melanin,” affirms the author of the study.

Discovering genes

The researchers involved in the project characterized 364 individuals from Cape Verde with approximately 1 million genetic markers each. “Individuals from the same island tended to be more genetically alike,” adds the study.

Miscegenation may also be evaluated on a genetic level. According to estimates by the researchers, “57% of the genes are of African origin and 43% are of European origin,” making Cape Verde one of the most mixed populations on Earth, “much more so even than in certain zones of Brazil.”

“We know that skin color is hereditary, but we’re not too sure which genes influence it,” said Jorge Rocha. As such, one of the central parts of the study was to use the Cape Verdean population to try to discover which genes affect skin and eye color.

According to the study, at least five genes are responsible for 40% of skin color variations in Cape Verde.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I am not into picture spamming.

But these people have some unusual features NOT found either African and Europeans. aDNA Cape Verde hold some answers


It will be really fascinating to see a really comprehensive study on Cape Verde. Are they remnants of initial admixture of La Brana and Neoliithic? Remember Canary Islanders carry MORE La Brana SNPs than Berbers/North Africans. I would bet the Cape Verde Islanders carry even more.










 

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Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
are going post this info to reloaded or find a small picture because I can't read it that well.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sage. Can you adjust the size ? Thanks.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
According to the study. Cape Verde Islanders have an unusual high frequency of "light eyes" ..... compared to North Africans. Remnant of La Brana? I will to be a fly on that wall in the lab when the testing is going on.






[img]http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Cabo%20Verde/848892.jpg[img]


Even in East Africa. Remnants of La Brana.


 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
@Xyyman
That news article was a bit un-informative
Read Sandra Belezas 2013 study. - I will make a proper response when I get home.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I posted on Beleza study several years ago. On ESR. I believe the title was "white west Afticans" or something like that. The paper first gave me the clue that light/white skin did NOT originate in Europe but in Africa. We are a continuum and not races according to Rosenberg et al. Now aDNA is confirming all of this. As I told Beyoku about 5years the clues will be in the DNA of Sardinians, Greeks etc. Transition points. Now it looks like these Cape Verde and Canary Islanders still harbor these "transition" populations. Mechta Aflou?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Great discussion and feedback. This should be in another thread but since we have no mods. If what I am thinking is true I would predict that Cape Verde Islands to the south will have more "African" ancestry and those to the north more "European" ancestry. Lighter eyes will also be found to the North. Darker colored eyes and skin to the south. And guess what. Santiago, the southern most island, has the most "African" ancestry. Surprise!!! Not!


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Note also. R1b-M269 and V-88 is found at high frequency in Western Africa eg Guinea-Bissau. No one has made an attempt to parse out the M269 in Africa. That is to come. Assuming it came from European Colonialist. We know western Europeans males are NOT Steppe migrants. It is a fantasy, since R-M269 found the aDNA of the Steppe pastoralist is YOUNGER and on a DIFFERENT branch of R1b-M269. We know R1b-M269 was in ancient Irish(2000bc) and who has one of the highest frequency of that marker. We know that the Canary Islanders carried R1b-M269 BEFORE the "Spanish" conquest. We know that R1b-M269 has an Atlantic modal haplotype. Get the picture emerging. This is not rocket science.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans


=======

continuing...

Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.

Back-migration..... HA!!


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yes! I am good. I completely forgot I did this break down of SLC24A5 years ago. What does it all mean? Tic! Toc!

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&where_thread_title=white+west+africans&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yes. I did a break down of the paper back in 2013. To the newbies, what does the below chart show? Simple. The pigmentation of Cape Verde people CANNOT be explained solely by modern European admixture.



http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1487/light-skin-eyes-white-africans
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Diebythesword:

quote:

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Crackpot black supremacist
IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.

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My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.

La Brana 1


This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.

Genotypes of Stone Age Europeans (pigmentation SNPs)

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quote:

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Although eye color and skin color are correlated, their underlying genetic architecture in Cape Verde is very different. Beyond HERC2 (OCA2) and SLC24A5, individual genomic ancestry has relatively little effect on eye color. By contrast, the ‘‘rest of the genome’’ (beyond APBA2 (OCA2), GRM5-TYR, and SLC24A5) has a very strong influence on skin color, nearly twice that of all four single loci combined. What is the biological basis for the large effect of individual ancestry on skin color? Theoretical explanations include non-genetic components that correlate with ancestry, or many genes of small effect whose contributions were not strong enough to be detected in our sample. We favor the latter alternative, which supports a view of skin color genetic architecture that is multimodal, in which many genes of small effect cumulatively explain the correlation between skin color and individual ancestry, and together with several genes of moderate effect (GRM5-TYR, APBA2 (OCA2), SLC45A2, and SLC24A5), account for high overall heritability.


[...]

...An accurate understanding of human diversity requires that we measure phenotype as well as genotype.

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quote:

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[...]a substantial part of the North-to-South genetic differentiation can
be attributed to demographic events (admixture, drift and founder
effects) ensuing the initial settlement of Santiago and Fogo, without
further significant exogenous contributions besides the regular
importation of slaves to the two southern islands.

---

Basically the initial hyopthesis is based on "historical knowledge", Portuguese got slaves from Africa, brought them to Santiago first (based on record), then to Fogo, then from Fogo to Sao Vincent, Antonio & Nicholas, etc. The extra boost in diversity is attributed to more traffic being brought into Fogo and Santiago from Africa.

However, although we see decrease in diversity from Santiago to fogo to the northern islands, each Island has it's own batch of exclusive components which then lead to the following hypothesis..

quote:

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[...]the North and South genetic clusters could result from separate migrations coming from Europe (mainly Portugal) and the West Coast of Africa, which then evolved in parallel before converging into a common cultural and social background.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Xyyman. Archaeological evidence?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I posted on Beleza study several years ago. On ESR. I believe the title was "white west Afticans" or something like that. The paper first gave me the clue that light/white skin did NOT originate in Europe but in Africa. We are a continuum and not races according to Rosenberg et al. Now aDNA is confirming all of this. As I told Beyoku about 5years the clues will be in the DNA of Sardinians, Greeks etc. Transition points. Now it looks like these Cape Verde and Canary Islanders still harbor these "transition" populations. Mechta Aflou?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Xyyman. Archaeological evidence?

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Notice there is a North to South cline. Notice also ONLY 500years of "European" colonization. Also Guinea-Bissau has the highest frequency of upstream clade of R-V88 and also has R1b-M269
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Any one reading this can tell the researchers are perplexed by these "Negroids" with white skin and green eyes. And at such high frequency. Even more than known admixed popualtions like Brazilians and AFRAMS.

Remnants of La Brana and incoming Neolithics?

Cape Verde Child
[img [/img]
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



so where does the straight hair come in if people from Guinea-Bissau established Europe?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Iris Texture Traits show Associations with Iris Color and Genomic Ancestry - ELLEN E. QUILLEN,


"Negros" with blonde hair and green eyes





 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
You are not following Lioness. It’s gradual transition that takes THOUSANDS!!!! Of years. I will irate my brothas but the evidence seems to point to that light skin is the natural state of humans(Mekova and Rees et al – “quote: removal of the constraint”. On the other hand we became humans because of pigmentation(blackness). Confusing?

@ Lioness you do know that some West Africans carry the “derived” form of the EDAR gene. Significance? You also do know that Europeans and African hair is very similar in relation to structure and thickness. Asians are on the extreme end.

Relethord et al – “SS Africans carry the most diverse pigmentation phenotype of all humans”.

Again. As I said before - “negros” are new. Why? “ Negros” around the world are NOT related to each other. They are more related to population to the North of them.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You are not following Lioness. It’s gradual transition that takes THOUSANDS!!!! Of years. I will irate my brothas but the evidence seems to point to that light skin is the natural state of humans(Mekova and Rees et al – “quote: removal of the constraint”. On the other hand we became humans because of pigmentation(blackness). Confusing?

@ Lioness you do know that some West Africans carry the “derived” form of the EDAR gene. Significance? You also do know that Europeans and African hair is very similar in relation to structure and thickness. Asians are on the extreme end.

Relethord et al – “SS Africans carry the most diverse pigmentation phenotype of all humans”.

Again. As I said before - “negros” are new. Why? “ Negros” around the world are NOT related to each other. They are more related to population to the North of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Of course there are still some unanswered questions, like, why did Euroepans remain black for over 30,000years up to about 6000BC. The incoming agriculturist brougth in the white genes which is today virtual fixed in Europeans. So...as the OP stated, why are central Americans darker than North Americans? "The constraint has returned"? Mekova and Rees et al?

---

So incoming R-M269 carriers, blue eyed agriculturalists from Guinea-Bissau went into Europe and in within 6,000 years their skin went pale, their hair straitened and went blond, their noses narrowed and lips shrunk, the ancestors of Donald Trump
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
No Lioness. I do not believe race exist, when I started about 10years ago on ES I did believe that. Of course being black I am cognitive of our plight and have some bias. But being open-minded and objective I cannot ignore the facts. Yes, E1b1a is new about 5-6Kyo, We also know some AEians were E1b1a. We know that R-V88 is upstream(also older) of R1b-M269. We know R1b-V88 has high freqiency ns "WEST" and North West Africa. We know Western Euroepans carry the Atlantic modal haplotype of R1b-M269 and NOT the Steppes version. We know "WEST" Europe carry highest frequency of the R1b-M269. We know aDNA from Ireland and Canary Islands carried R1b-M269.....BEFORE European colonization and BEFORE the apperance of Steppes nomads(lol!). Something was was obviously going on in the WEST.

See where the FACTS take you. Your response?


BTW - Guinea-Bissau carry low frequency of European mtDNA. IIRC traces of U and H. Significance?

REMEMBER I only state FACTS. Prove me wrong!
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As usual , misdirecting. SMH(insert sarcasm). I know your game.

You are not reading and/or listening.

The research has shown that light eyes already existed BEFORE light skin apppeared in Europe. Europeans are a mixture of TWO(or three) parental popualation - Lazaridis et al. WHG or paleolithic European apparently carried blue eyes and black skin - Lueza-Fox et al(sp?). African carried light skin before exiting Africa - Shriver et al. The new incoming migrants 6000years ago carried light skin Mathesion et al. I can go on and on and on. This is not rocket science.

One unanswered question is why R1b-M269 became so dominant and replaced yDNAG and E1b1b? E1b1b is still about 10-25% is come areas of Europe. But G virtually disappreaed. Is there a genetic advantage with R1b1ba2 "IN" Europe. The same applies to E1b1a in the SSA. Is there a genetic advantage "IN" SSA? Is it cultural/social? These TWO young markers vitually wiped-out older lineage in Europe and Africa. Were the women to blame? Davidski proposed a model I think made sense.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Of course there are still some unanswered questions, like, why did Euroepans remain black for over 30,000years up to about 6000BC. The incoming agriculturist brougth in the white genes which is today virtual fixed in Europeans. So...as the OP stated, why are central Americans darker than North Americans? "The constraint has returned"? Mekova and Rees et al?

---

So incoming R-M269 carriers, blue eyed agriculturalists from Guinea-Bissau went into Europe and in within 6,000 years their skin went pale, their hair straitened and went blond, their noses narrowed and lips shrunk, the ancestors of Donald Trump

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

So "Peul" is ...just speculation.

But I agree "adrker' and "lighter" is all relative. We have no way of telling how dark La Brana was but if we go by the gene make up, based upon modern humans...he WAS jet black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Swenet ...mechta Aflou?

---

I think you're close with some of the things you're saying in regards to Africa and Iberia and Europe. But I think we disagree on the details. You think the involved lineages are La Braña-like while I think they were L lineages. You think La Braña is prime example of such an African presence in Europe. While I think that La Braña had small amounts of African ancestry, I think populations like Muge had much more African ancestry—perhaps including also the African ancestry that is in La Braña.

I'm really big on archaeology nowadays.

More coming soon.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 







 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Cameroon per google. Can't authenticate. But obviously found throughout Africa








 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 




 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ok. So much for selective picture spamming. But get the picture.(pun intended)
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Ok. So much for selective picture spamming. But get the picture.(pun intended)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Diebythesword:

quote:

---

Crackpot black supremacist
IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.

---

My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.

La Brana 1


This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.

Genotypes of Stone Age Europeans (pigmentation SNPs)

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Cameroon per google. Can't authenticate. But obviously found throughout Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Quote from Davidski the racialist blogger. The aDNA is proving racialist WRONG. lol! HA! HA! Euroepans are depigmented Africans.


QUOTE
"Blogger Davidski said...
Yeah, not much chance that H1 and H3 are European.

February 13, 2017 at 10:30 PM"


QUOTE:
"Blogger Annie Mouse said...
@Samuel

We dont know all the paleoeuropean populations yet I think. Too many holes.

I favour the North African origin for H1 and H3. The facts fit (paleolithic presence, pattern of expansion from Iberia, absence from the Near East etc) and the first Bell Beakers are associated with North Africa (archaeologically/culturally).

February 14, 2017 at 12:08 PM"


quote:
"
IIRC early work on La Brana suggested Iberian HG had no more Basal Eurasian than Loschbour, throwing doubt on any connection between S Europe and Near East prior to Neolithic.
"


Seems people are catching on. Ha! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Trofimova et al. (2015) found a surprising high frequency of R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103) among the peoples of the Idel-Ural. 21 out of 58 (36.2%) of Burzyansky District Bashkirs, 11 out of 52 (21.2%) of Udmurts, 4 out of 50 (8%) of Komi, 4 out of 59 (6.8%) of Mordvins, 2 out of 53 (3.8%) of Besermyan and 1 out of 43 (2.3%) of Chuvash were R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103),[41] the type of R1b found in the recently analyzed Yamna remains of the Samara Oblast and Orenburg Oblast

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

The problem with my position though, is East Asians... Saying that a population developed such a dynamic trait by chance is one thing, but it happened twice on two separate continents under seemingly "similar" pressures. But when we dig deeper, the evidence becomes too overwhelming in favor of my position.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans


=======

continuing...

Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.

Back-migration..... HA!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
ESR!!! or Table S9 of the Mallick paper

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyyman:
Swenet, forget archeology - all your questions are answered in genetics. Archeology is easily misinterpreted but genetics cannot .....lol!

---

Genetics can also be misinterpreted. For instance, you make a spectacle out of the fact that Europeans have low variation in the haplotype background of their SLC24A5 SNP. But this is to be expected as they're fixed for the light skin allele. Their loss of variation at this locus doesn't say anything other than that 100% derived SLC24A5 necessitates 0% of the other haplotypes that occur in Asians. In other words, 100% of one and 0% of the other are two sides of the same coin, not two separate findings.

You also build a grand narrative around blue eyed and blonde haired Africans, making a link with La Braña. But La Braña wasn't blonde haired.

You have have a lot of work to do. You're not there yet. I don't see these gaps being bridged but, as I always say, see if you find the evidence to build your case.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
deleted
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ever the BSer

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyyman:
Swenet, forget archeology - all your questions are answered in genetics. Archeology is easily misinterpreted but genetics cannot .....lol!

---

Genetics can also be misinterpreted. For instance, you make a spectacle out of the fact that Europeans have low variation in the haplotype background of their SLC24A5 SNP. But this is to be expected as they're fixed for the light skin allele. Their loss of variation at this locus doesn't say anything other than that 100% derived SLC24A5 necessitates 0% of the other haplotypes that occur in Asians. In other words, 100% of one and 0% of the other are two sides of the same coin, not two separate findings.

You also build a grand narrative around blue eyed and blonde haired Africans, making a link with La Braña. But La Braña wasn't blonde haired.

You have have a lot of work to do. You're not there yet. I don't see these gaps being bridged but, as I always say, see if you find the evidence to build your case.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Ever the BSer

---

quote:

---

As expected from the near fixation of A111T in Europe, the C11 clade predominates there, and all other haplotypes are rare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry



^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry



^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans

---

Why are you quoting this? are you confused?

---

quote:

---

Just a tip to remember, multiple polymorphisms can exist at a single loci
100% fixation =/= 0% peripheral up/downstream mutation at a coding region Btw, (that's why [LD]Linkage Disequilibrium is a thing).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry



^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans

---

Why are you quoting this? are you confused?

---

No,
Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. (Canfield et al. 2013)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

The derived threonine allele (Ala111Thr; also known as A111T or Thr111) represented 98.7 to 100% of the alleles in European samples, while the ancestral or alanine form was found in 93 to 100% of samples of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Indigenous Americans. The variation is a SNP polymorphism rs1426654, which had been previously shown to be second among 3011 tabulated SNPs ranked as ancestry-informative markers. This single change in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the difference in skin melanin index between peoples of sub-Saharan African and European ancestry



^ The unique allelle accounting for light skin in Europeans

---

Why are you quoting this? are you confused?

---

No,
Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. (Canfield et al. 2013)

---

quote:

---

[…] display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European populations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).

[…]

Although too few African C11 sequences have been determined to draw strong conclusions, those available from the 1000 Genomes Project show no evidence of greater age in the form of greater SNP diversity than the European examples.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?

lol! You are a funny dude.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.

---

---

quote:

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3815065/


Published online 2013 Nov 1. doi: 10.1534/g3.113.007484
PMCID: PMC3815065
Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection

Victor A. Canfield,


Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. The distributions of C11 and its parental haplotypes make it most likely that [/b]these two last steps occurred between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent,[/b] with the A111T mutation occurring after the split between the ancestors of Europeans and East Asians.


Where did C11 originate?

The precursors to C11, haplotypes C3 and C10, are common in East Asia and the New World (Figure S5), but the distribution of C11 indicates that these locations are not likely sites for the origin of C11 or its immediate precursor. Similarly, B6 not associated with C11 is distributed widely in East Asia and the New World (data not shown). The paucity of C3 and C10 among existing African haplotypes suggests that both events leading to the origin of C11 took place outside this continent. Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin.

Because A111T is far from fixation in most Indian samples (Table S1), the high diversity of B-region haplotypes associated with C11 in the GIH sample may be the result of prolonged recombination rather than early arrival of A111T. In fact, the decrease in frequency of A111T to the east of Pakistan suggests that C11 originated farther to the west and after the initial genetic split between western and eastern Eurasians. On this basis, we hold the view that an origin of C11 in the Middle East, broadly defined, is most likely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?

lol! You are a funny dude.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
If Europeans are fixed for the derived allele, they're going to automatically have 0% of the 'Asian' haplotypes. Stop treating the low European haplotype diversity in this genetic region as some sort of super revelation.

---

---

quote:

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3815065/


Published online 2013 Nov 1. doi: 10.1534/g3.113.007484
PMCID: PMC3815065
Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection

Victor A. Canfield,


Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa. The distributions of C11 and its parental haplotypes make it most likely that [/b]these two last steps occurred between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent,[/b] with the A111T mutation occurring after the split between the ancestors of Europeans and East Asians.


Where did C11 originate?

The precursors to C11, haplotypes C3 and C10, are common in East Asia and the New World (Figure S5), but the distribution of C11 indicates that these locations are not likely sites for the origin of C11 or its immediate precursor. Similarly, B6 not associated with C11 is distributed widely in East Asia and the New World (data not shown). The paucity of C3 and C10 among existing African haplotypes suggests that both events leading to the origin of C11 took place outside this continent. Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin.

Because A111T is far from fixation in most Indian samples (Table S1), the high diversity of B-region haplotypes associated with C11 in the GIH sample may be the result of prolonged recombination rather than early arrival of A111T. In fact, the decrease in frequency of A111T to the east of Pakistan suggests that C11 originated farther to the west and after the initial genetic split between western and eastern Eurasians. On this basis, we hold the view that an origin of C11 in the Middle East, broadly defined, is most likely.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


The FACTS are SS Africans Carry ALL the Haplotypes for SLC24A5

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans


=======

continuing...

Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.

Back-migration..... HA!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?

lol! You are a funny dude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
When all the genes come together . BAMMM!!! You gene Africans with green eyes and the occasional “red bone” African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
HA! HA! HA! stick to bones...Anthropology. You don't understand what you are looking at , do you? Africans carry "ALL" the haplotypes except the two found only in Asians. Most likely those two found in Asians either died out in Africans or those mutations occurred in Asia indicative of a ancient disconnection between Asians and Africans. Europeans carry only ONE found in Africans and Asians....do you understand what it means?

lol! You are a funny dude.

---

In Europe, 50% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 50% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 60% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 40% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 70% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 30% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. And so on. So, no, having none of the other haplotypes, but only 100% the SLC24A5-associated one, doesn't mean anything other than that derived SLC24A5 recently rose in frequency. That's why we still generally see 'Asian' haplotypes in pre-Neolithic aDNA. Isn't that one of the takeaways from your thread—the fact that La Brana didn't have the SLC24A5-associated haplotype as recently as the mid-holocene?

It's not my job to educate you. That's your own responsibility; to educate yourself. But I find it interesting that you find this difficult to grasp.

---

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
In Europe, 50% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 50% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 60% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 40% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. 70% derived SLC24A5 means there is only room for 30% of the other, 'Asian', haplotypes. And so on. So, no, having none of the other haplotypes, but only 100% the SLC24A5-associated one, doesn't mean anything other than that derived SLC24A5 recently rose in frequency. That's why we still generally see 'Asian' haplotypes in pre-Neolithic aDNA. Isn't that one of the takeaways from your thread—the fact that La Brana didn't have the SLC24A5-associated haplotype as recently as the mid-holocene?

---

quote:

---

The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes,

---

Having one snp doesn't exclude you from having another. because your population is fixed for having a single SNP dosen't mean you can't have another one in the same region. One reason is because, yes ...you might've finally guessed it, Crossover! how we have the C11 marker/Haplotype in the first place, (a region with two derived and a couple of ancestral alleles btw, but don't mind that.)

I mean bro, look at the other pigment related loci, OCA2 and Slc42a5, lol how can you read about these and say that having a polymorphism doesn't leave space for having another one?

I wan't to believe in you Swenet, but you're breaking my heart.

[LD] insinuates association of different loci, but anyone with sense would know I was referring to the calculation of linkage in general
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Admit it, you don't really understand what's going on.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
You and xyyman are discussing simp sh!t. In the specific case of slc24a5 there are a few SNPs that were identified OOA in general, and as it just so happens A111 swept Europe leaving no "room" for the other SNPs....ok, and?

But do you know that there's at least 2 mutations at the slc45a2, one novel and the other present in Africa? Did you know that one is fixed and one is not? Do you know that the one in Africa (which probably is the first mutation) isn't the one that fixed in Europe? please explain how that can occur using your rudimentary calculations...
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
To the readers who may not be able to discern the point of contention, the point is that DNA that occurs somewhere on an individual's chromosome is mutually exclusive with other known variations others may have at that exact same locus. So, for instance, you can't have two variations of the same piece of DNA on the same locus, of the same homologous chromosome, in the same individual.

Translated to our situation: Europeans can't have mention-worthy diversity in their SLC24A5 haplotypes because they're already fixed for the derived SLC24A5 allele. Recent selection in Europe removed all the polymorphic SLC24A5 haplotypes inherited from early settlers of Europe. Some of these still occur in Asians. Not because Asians are early Europeans, but because early Europeans and early Asians had the same OOA skin pigmentation genotype immediately after their split.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

As expected from the near fixation of A111T in Europe, the C11 clade predominates there, and all other haplotypes are rare.

---

http://www.g3journal.org/content/3/11/2059.full

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
To the readers who may not be able to discern the point of contention, the point is that DNA that occurs somewhere on an individual's chromosome is mutually exclusive with other known variations others may have at that exact same locus. So, for instance, you can't have two variations of the same piece of DNA on the same locus, of the same homologous chromosome, in the same individual.

Translated to our situation: Europeans can't have mention-worthy diversity in their SLC24A5 haplotypes because they're already fixed for the derived SLC24A5 allele. Recent selection in Europe removed all the polymorphic SLC24A5 haplotypes inherited from early settlers of Europe. Some of these still occur in Asians. Not because Asians are early Europeans, but because early Europeans and early Asians had the same OOA skin pigmentation genotype immediately after their split.

---

Lmao what!?

please, just go here ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24528593
look at table 1, and on your own, research the European distribution of each polymorphism.

Or read the abstract for Eaton 2015
10.1002/ajhb.22678

Or look at tables 3, 4 and 5 On Norton et. al. 2016
10.1002/ajpa.22861

I assume you know basic math, if you can't see how you're wrong I can't help you from there.

and if you wan't to get super technical, no one in this thread have yet to mention a single loci, we've vaguely been referring to genes, the coding region for solute carriers(SLCs) are genes not loci. We've only really been focusing in on SNP's of the slc24a5 gene....but not only that, even if we were more focuses on loci, you'd still be wrong asf. though loci have shorter total distance bp, a chromosome can still crossover within the region, its just more rare. C'mon man, this is simple ****.

Just for the benefit of the doubt I'm going to assume some might not know what the implications of crossing over maybe so here's a SIMPLE breakdown by example. You have a Father who has a Homozygous SNP at the 'A' allele {aa BB}, plus a mom who has a homozygous polymorphism at 'B' giving us {AA bb}- The son will be {Aa bB}, one chromosome being {a B} with the SNP passed down from Dad and the other {A-b} with the SNP passed down from mom.... there's a chance that the chromosomes can crossover between the two SNPs creating an 'a-b' or an 'A-B' phenotype. And if the son passes down a double recessive/polymorphic {a-b} chromosome when mixing with a common homozygous carrier of only SNP at 'A' {aa BB} then viola! you have 2 son's with two SNP's!! (one with a homozygous derived A snp!!!) I mean, it's almost like its entry level biology!!!

I'm officially done now good night... smh.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Said I was logging out, but I'm tripping, I realized something that went unnoticed, that might contribute to confusion...

In Figure S3 from Mallicks paper each letter (A-G) from the phylotree is NOT (necessarily) INDICATIVE OF AN INDIVIDUAL SNP, only H is!

@lioness lmaoooo, troll.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Now that I have some free time, to elaborate on what I was speaking about earlier on this page...

Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection
CanField 2013

Highlight in Green represents the two haplogroups said to have crossed over to give us the daughter C11 Hg in question. --Just in case this is hard to grasp for "some", a part of the chromosome within the marked region, ('C') crossed over with another chromosome resulting in a daughter chromosome sharing some SNPs WITHIN the marked region.-- The pinkish-red highlight indicates the haplogroup associated with 'slc24a5-(rs1426654 [A111T])'. Group higlighted in grey are all SS-Africans and the purple is a contemporary Mexican population (which will be important to look at objectively).

What I was trying to convey before was that even though the author suggests a SWAsian origin of C11 this doesn't technically "rule out" an African origin of the Hg, much less the slc24a5 mutation for a bevy of reasons. One being the more blatantly obvious reason/nitpick, in sampling... I mean, we have 3 cultural groups, and two of them are neighbors, everyone knows about the complexity and diversity of Africans in general, I mean it's quite noticeable when comparing the result from the Maasai and Luhya (neighbors!) in this study.

Secondly is the presence of the parent Hg's, they might be infrequent but they're there... both of them are there (in SSA). not only that, but the daughter c11 was found in all three SSA groups. C11 being in YRI w/o the presence of C3 or C10 suggests either a European back migration or an early Asian back migration followed by a possible sweep, eliminating the parent Hg's. Not only that, but like I tried to hint at earlier A LOT of the C11 carriers in SSA Lack the slc24a5 mutation. That suggests that C11 was introduced or arrived in SSA before slc24a5 was widespread. Logically if C11 was to have expanded along with slc24a5 in Europe, it would be impossible for YRI to receive a back migration from Europe, but not have either parental Hg's or the Slc25a4 mutation.

Moving on, our best guess would be an early Asian back migration predating the widespread selection of the mentioned slc24a5 if there was a back migration at all. But it doesn't completely explain the continental occurrence of slc24a5. If they disclosed all minor haplogroups found in SSA containing the rs1426654 snp, and we see that they're not all a subsequent recombination of the C11 haplogroup. the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.

there's some other things mentioned in the study regarding the sequence of recombination that I find interesting, but its too technical and not entirely relevant ...like mentioning this study in the first place... Cough* Cough*
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.

---

quote:

---

"xyyman says that slc24a5 in Africa means that Europeans are depigmented Africans that their ancestors lived in Africa 10,000 years ago or less and are more African than they are Central Asian, middle Eastern or descendants of the first Europeans . Do you agree with this? He's been saying this for a few years now, that the modern white European's immediate primary ancestors where Africans who crossed the Strait of Gibralter"

---

quote:

---

Me Pg.2:
There's an actual chance we might be looking at genes falsely attributed to Eurasian admixture, which is why I often show interest in topics speaking of neanderthal admixture and AMH pigment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

I don't really agree 1:1 with his hypothesis, particularly a displacement of "colored" europeans by contemporaneous depigmented Africans, which seems "unlikely," to put it kindly...

---

About 40% of all maternal lineages in Europe belong to haplogroup H.
Do you agree with the xyymian theory that the maternal ancestors of at least 40% of modern Europeans are berbers who introduced haplogroup H to Europe by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar?
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
stop instigating...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
stop instigating...

---

quote:

---

Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.



The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

---

quote:

---

"However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
On that note.

quote:

---

Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.



The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

---

--Carles Lalueza-Fox

Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960

quote:

---

"However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

---

--Lalueza-Fox

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm%C2%A0

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Speaking of gramps. Where did he go? He was all over this thread a little while ago. Back to the drawing board.. after all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.

---

What is the significance of that?

Why are there multi millions of light skinned people in the Northern hemisphere but not in Africa?

How did the light skin occur there?

xyyman says that slc24a5 in Africa means that Europeans are depigmented Africans that their ancestors lived in Africa 10,000 years ago or less and are more African than they are Central Asian, middle Eastern or descendants of the first Europeans . Do you agree with this? He's been saying this for a few years now, that the modern white European's immediate primary ancestors where Africans who crossed the Strait of Gibralter

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
^I don't understand why Xyyman is so reluctant to patch the loopholes in his hypotheses. Its almost like he's proud of them. Blonde haired Africans are remnants of a La Brana-like population when the latter wasn't even blonde? We have to do better than that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] To the newbies. You have to forget what you learned. Forget the visuals, forget what your perception of what an African looks like or a European should look like. Follow the genetic data, follow the science. Forget the modern visuals. The data don't lie. There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans.

---

So are the Siwa the most likely immediate ancestors to Europeans?
The Tuareg?

You don't really have much until you can point to a region or regions in Africa that have high frequencies or diversity of haplogroups common to Europeans and place them as candidates for the immediate ancestors of modern Europeans.
t can't be kept just as an abstract political concept
 

---

Posted by JoshuaConnerMoon (Member # 22355) on :
 
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yo! You are in the wrong forum section. Try the next one over. We back up what we say here with data and facts not dogmatic rhetoricals. Please.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
On that note.

quote:

---

Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.



The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

---

--Carles Lalueza-Fox

Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

---

"There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa,"

What have you been smoking?

"Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this)."

These people were an extent from Africans from the Sudan region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
" just as an abstract political concept" ...nice!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

---

"There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa,"

What have you been smoking?

"Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this)."

These people were an extent from Africans from the Sudan region.

---

Ish please don't give him reason to derail another thread, take it elsewhere.

---

Okay. But I had to get it out of my system.

Don't know if this has been posted here already?

Original post is by Zarahan:

quote:

---

"Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus hunter)gatherer groups (5, 21, 26)suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation (5, 21, 23). "

---

--Llorente et al 2016. The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros.
Biorxiv preprint 2016


http://tudasbazis.sulinet.hu/hu/tarsadalomtudomanyok/tortenelem/eletmodtortenet-oskor-es-okor/ritusok-a-korai-termelo-kulturakban/gimszarvasvadaszatot-abrazolo-festmeny-catal-huyuk -i-e-5800-k
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] To the newbies. You have to forget what you learned. Forget the visuals, forget what your perception of what an African looks like or a European should look like. Follow the genetic data, follow the science. Forget the modern visuals. The data don't lie. There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans.

---

So are the Siwa the most likely immediate ancestors to Europeans?
The Tuareg?

You don't really have much until you can point to a region or regions in Africa that have high frequencies or diversity of haplogroups common to Europeans and place them as candidates for the immediate ancestors of modern Europeans.
t can't be kept just as an abstract political concept

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now. So the follow-up question is can humans morph that quickly?

---

quote:

---

Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.

--2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Does the environment change the genes or the genes adapt to the environment?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now. So the follow-up question is can humans morph that quickly?

---

quote:

---

Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.

--2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani,

---

…remember that R-V88 had not been discovered in 2007…

---

quote:

---

Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines haplogroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). [/b] Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0049170.s001

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now.

---

If that is the case who is more similar to an ancient Egyptian a modern European or a modern West African?

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As I said Davidski has his hands full. Lol! Defending the origin of R1b-M269 from the Eurasian Steppes.


Quote:
-----
Blogger Rob said...
Dave do you play table tennis, or collect stamps ?

February 26, 2017 at 6:47 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
Maybe you should take that up, along with Romulus?

February 26, 2017 at 6:53 PM

Blogger Rob said...
@ Davidski

I agree that M417 and L51 show star like expansions, I just said to that effect.
Can you prove at this juncture that L51 and M417 came from Yamnaya?


February 26, 2017 at 4:19 PM

Blogger Olympus Mons said...
@Davidski.

That is game of thrones. Its a.different thing. Reality? That is going to be simple, real simple.

February 26, 2017 at 7:51 AM


26, 2017 at 6:58 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
Dave is from Australia so I figure he is round the clock drunk and hence this explains the argument style.

February 26, 2017 at 7:59 PM


February 25, 2017 at 3:46 AM
Blogger Gioiello said...
I have Always considered that R1b (and much other) from the Italian Refugium after the Younger Dryas expanded and Balkans may have been one of the places, but also all the other subclades are more in Western Europe than the Balkans, and you should know what I think about the R-L23 found at Samara and eastern Europe. Anyway we all are waiting for the aDNA, but it seems to me a complete defeat of all the PhDs of Harvard, Stanford and all their sponsors, and also the false agenda they had. I regret only for my dear friend Sam Vass, and Ashkenazic Jew belonging to R-V88 perhaps I caused some grief with my theory. "A grief ago" the poet said...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Why do you ask these questions you know the answer to. AEians are closest to South Africans, Great Lakes and then West Africans. Magrehbians and Europeans are not even in the discussion.

---

So, Magrehbians are quite different from other Africans, why is that?







^^ this means this boy from Zimbabwe would not be ancestor to European
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

which Europeans are 80% African?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
typo-
*more African than non-African.






BTw- this is UNSUPERVISED. ie "NOT"manipulated!!!! not filtered by selecting SNPs

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2083/rosenberg-et-2002-cluster-chart

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

which Europeans are 80% African?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals

---

@Xymann,

If Europeans are "depigmentated Africans" why do African fossils lack the most noticeable/salient "Caucasoid" traits? i.e. where are the narrow nasal aperture and reduced/small teeth and jaws on early African crania? On the contrary all palaeo-anthro evidence suggests these traits arose in Europe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

which Europeans in particular are 80% African, from what country and region?

Or were you just bullshitting when you said that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
typo-
*more African than non-African.






BTw- this is UNSUPERVISED. ie "NOT"manipulated!!!! not filtered by selecting SNPs

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2083/rosenberg-et-2002-cluster-chart

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

---

which Europeans are 80% African?

---

Since 2002 this has been resolved. Lazaridis et al was late to the scene with his three ancestral populations to modern Europeans . Fig1 K3 agrees with what Lazardis saw that Bedouins are "admixed" Africans. This was clear since 2002 by Rosenberg. Also the so called "Eurasian" Mazb are heavily admixed with SSA.

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Europeans(Davidski and his crew), in denial again that modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. Lol! They just can’t believe it…..lol!

From the Davidski webiste
-----
Modern-day Europeans: a post-Neolithic product

There's a new preprint at bioRxiv looking at the relationship between ancient and modern-day Europeans. I think it misses its mark, because the author concludes that the Neolithic transition created the modern-day European gene pool.

This is only partly true, because modern-day Europeans are in fact, by and large, the product of intense Indo-European expansions from the Late Neolithic to the Migration period.

Just take a look the Y-haplogroup landscape in much of Europe and you'll see that our direct ancestors did not mostly spring from Neolithic farming communities. If you want to find them in the ancient DNA record, then seek out post-Neolithic populations rich in R1b-L51, R1a-Z645 and I1-M253.

By the way, the author uses Mormons from Utah (also known as CEU) to represent Europeans. I don't know if this is a problem, it might well be, but in any case, why Utah Mormons? Why not a wide variety of actual Europeans all the way from the Atlantic to the Urals? They're freely available online nowadays.

Abstract: Genetic material sequenced from ancient samples is revolutionizing our understanding of the recent evolutionary past. However, ancient DNA is often degraded, resulting in low coverage, error-prone sequencing. Several solutions exist to this problem, ranging from simple approach such as selecting a read at random for each site to more complicated approaches involving genotype likelihoods. In this work, we present a novel method for assessing the relationship of an ancient sample with a modern population while accounting for sequencing error by analyzing raw read from multiple ancient individuals simultaneously. We show that when analyzing SNP data, it is better to sequencing more ancient samples to low coverage: two samples sequenced to 0.5x coverage provide better resolution than a single sample sequenced to 2x coverage. We also examined the power to detect whether an ancient sample is directly ancestral to a modern population, finding that with even a few high coverage individuals, even ancient samples that are very slightly diverged from the modern population can be detected with ease. When we applied our approach to European samples, we found that no ancient samples represent direct ancestors of modern Europeans. We also found that, as shown previously, the most ancient Europeans appear to have had the smallest effective population sizes, indicating a role for agriculture in modern population growth.

Joshua Schraiber, Assessing the relationship of ancient and modern populations, bioRxiv, Posted March 4, 2017, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/113779
---

One thing I have to agree with Davidski is the male line appeared or at least started dominating Europe AFTER the Neolithic. The female line is most definitely African pre/Neolithic. Sergi, Coon and recent autosomal data points to the Neolithic’s being Africans through Craniology. Now that leaves the question of where the male line came from. It has also to be African. Why? The males are ALSO Autosomaly AFRICAN. If the autosomes are African then the nR-Y-DNA is also African. THEY GO TOGETHER…unfortunately. Lol!
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
As I said. Europeans are depigmented Africans. Migrating to Europe through Sardinia and Iberia and to a small extent the Levant. The evidence points to land bridges connecting the two lands. Lol!. Don’t believe me? This is aDNA found in 10,000year old Sardiniand


QUOTE
---

More surprises from pre-Neolithic Southern Europe courtesy of a new paper at Scientific Reports. Emphasis is mine:


Abstract: Little is known about the genetic prehistory of Sardinia because of the scarcity of pre-Neolithic human remains. From a genetic perspective, modern Sardinians are known as genetic outliers in Europe, showing unusually high levels of internal diversity and a close relationship to early European Neolithic farmers. However, how far this peculiar genetic structure extends and how it originated was to date impossible to test. Here we present the first and oldest complete mitochondrial sequences from Sardinia, dated back to 10,000 yBP. These two individuals, while confirming a Mesolithic occupation of the island, belong to rare mtDNA lineages, which have never been found before in Mesolithic samples and that are currently present at low frequencies not only in Sardinia, but in the whole Europe. Preliminary Approximate Bayesian Computations, restricted by biased reference samples for Mesolithic Sardinia (the two typed samples) and Neolithic Europe (limited to central and north European sequences), suggest that the first inhabitants of the island have had a small or negligible contribution to the present-day Sardinian population, which mainly derives its genetic diversity from continental migration into the island by Neolithic times.

...

The CAR-H8 sample belongs to haplogroup I3, hence representing, to the best of our knowledge, the first pre-Neolithic sample carrying the haplogroup I. Studies based on complete mitogenomes have previously reported haplogroup I in ancient samples from Iran (individual I674, haplogroup I1c) and Levant (individual I1679, haplogroup I), dated to 5,105 ± 35 yBP and 8,850–8,750 yBP, respectively [39]. It was also found in two late Neolithic individuals from Germany, both belonging to haplogroup I3a and dated to around 4,000 yBP [50] but not in previous periods in Europe. Nowadays, this haplogroup is uncommon; its frequency is about 2% in modern Sardinians, 3% across Europe, and raises at maximum 6% in Northern European countries [51]. This is the first time that haplogroup I is found in a Mesolithic individual in Europe and the fact that we recovered this haplogroup in a sample of only two sequences may mean that it was present at higher frequencies in pre-Neolithic Sardinians or, in general, in the population that first settled in the island. The other sample (CAR-H7) belongs to the haplogroup J2b1. The haplogroup J has already been found in late hunter-gatherer European populations, with a frequency of about 4% 32]. The current frequency of the haplogroup J is higher than that of the haplogroup I, variable in Europe from 1.7% (Caucasus) to 15% (Wales), and representing the 13% of the total modern Sardinians mitochondrial sequences.
---

From Wiki on mtDNA hg-I

QUOTE
Distribution[edit]

Projected frequencies of mtDNA haplogroup I.
Haplogroup I is found at moderate to low frequencies in East Africa, Europe, West Asia and South Asia (Fernandes 2012). The rare basal/paraphyletic clade I* has been observed in three individuals; two from Somalia and one from Iran (Olivieri 2013).

Africa[edit]
Outside of Europe, the highest frequencies of mitochondrial haplogroup I observed so far appear in the Cushitic-speaking El Molo (23%) and Rendille (>17%) in northern Kenya (Castrì 2008). The clade is also found at comparable frequencies among the Socotri (~22%).
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! As I said many times. go where the data takes you.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
I know you don't like wiki but I seen an interesting quote.

By some authorities the Masai are included in the Hamitic group, but we have only to compare the features of a member of this tribe with those of a Galla... to realise the predominance of the negro element in the former. The aspect of the pure Hamite differs altogether from those of the Bantu and Negroid races. The... portrait of a Galla presents no correspondence with the conception usually formed of an African native. The forehead is high and square instead of low and receding; the nose is narrow, with the nostrils straight and not transverse; the chin is small and slightly pointed instead of massive and protruding; the hair is long and not woolly; the lips are thinner than those of the negro and not everted; the expression is intellectual, and indicates a type of mind higher than that of the simple negro. Indeed, except for the colour, it could hardly be distinguished from the face of a European. These characteristics prepare us for the fact that the Galla are not African, but immigrants from Asia.[26]
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Note the above is a quote from this 1896 book,
"Galla" refers to the Oromo

https://books.google.com/books?id=fqVBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA356&lpg=PA35






Oromo Leader Roba Butta (Real Name: Goro Bubbe) in 1901 (Shortly After the Fall of the Arsi Territory). Photo by the French Traveler Du Bourg de Bozas; Photo Acquired from Gadaa.com Oromo Documents Archives,


Oromo
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What!.... you guys still don't get it? WTF is a hamite or Kakazoid?


What a person "looks" like has no relevance. the only thing that correlates is GEOGRAPHY and GENETICS. THAT CANNOT CHANGE.

Undoubtedly Europeans are depigmented Africans. The question is why they look so different in most instances.

It goes back to ....plasticity. I tell you.

Humans can change and adapt in about 500years.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
In a non political sense looks don't matter you know better when looks are applied to civilization or anything white put value into regarding themselves,my comments was more about how a white person was describing African diversity that is in a agreement with what you have presented secondly your comment about plasticity is conflicting because as a concept or theory I seeing nothing wrong with it but it makes no sense when some of these earlier African still exist and they look vastly different from the contemporary population who in some instances are foreigners.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Way to patronize Xyyman, you know damn well that Europeans clustering @K2 where we have one cluster belonging to the NATIVE AMERICANS, don't mean a damn thing. Stop trying to confuse readers man, a young gentleman like myself could've fell for that.

...after all, that ~20% non African mixture @K2 could very well be indicative of admixture from non-AMH and steppe populations ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

In regards to plasticity, you need to answer 2 things before I'd advise any body to buy into the idea.
1.Why didn't the adaptive pressures cause such a radical change in EHG's, over the course of over +50,000 years nor had an effect on East Asian phenotype (other than skin lightening, which has answers in genetics).
2. what happened to the other haplogroups, said to have contributed to contemporary European ancestry!?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
To the “young gentlemen” , sic, these cluster charts are very simple. @K2 the computer algorithm divides the SNPs found into TWO(K2) categories regardless of populations/origin. These may be several hundred or several 100,000’s SNP or Ancestry Informative Material(AIM). They use the “labels” non-African vs African. Why? Because the “non-African” AIM has high frequency outside Africa and in this case Native Americans. Notice this “non-African” AIM is also found IN Africa. loL! That does not mean that Native Americans back-migrated to Africa. SMH. The “non-African' component is ALSO African in origin and found throughout Africa but at low frequency because most Africans are also Neolithics and NOT hunter-gatherers.

So stop mis-directing. …Lioness.(wink)


Europeans carry more “African” AIM in this unsupervised Kluster/Cluster Chart. Why? Because Europeans are primarily African Neolithics. Europeans are depigmented Africans. End of story. It does not matter how and how much the try to spin the BS.


Don’t believe me? Keep reading all the DNA studies coming out.


It does matter what YOU advise. The facts are there. Within intelligent minds this is not even debatable. The debate is how come and why the fundamental physical difference? Plasticity is the only reasonable explanation I have seen thus far.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
If anyone has been keeping up there is no such things as “steppe migration to Europe”. It is internet folklore held by delusional red-necks with pickup trucks and Volvos who want to maintain their white identity that they are not depigmented Africans.

The adaptive pressure DID cause a radical change. Instead of speaking through the you know what. What does an EHG “look” like? What does a 50,000yo East Asian “look” like. Lol! SMH. You people.


???? What haplogroup in modern Europeans? Europeans are made up of TWO(or 3 depending) populations. HG were yDNA I and mtDNA U.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Davidski has a rebellion on his hands…R-V88 is showing up in Ancient Europeans. loL!
The Steppe hypothesis has come to an end. Only rabid racialist are holding up hope.


-------------------

@Gioiello,

R1b1a2 is the new name for R1b1c V88.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Gioiello said...
@ Samuel Andrews

I thank you, I have to read the paper yet. That R-V88 was in Iberia, and that it came from Italy, is just my theory that I think having demonstrated, but we were discussing also about another possible R-M269 from Iberia. But the presence of WHG and specifically of Villabruna in these samples seems that is going in favour of my theory. We'll see...

Nirjhar007 said...
R1b is NOT IE...
March 7, 2017 at 2:48 AM

Rob said...
@ Sam

Well, R1b looks proto-WHG at least. Look at the supplementary data figue. EHG is now 61% proto-WHG & 39% MA-1.
Collectively, R1b looks WHG, even if some drifted onto the steppe at some point, and perhaps expanded back west.
March 7, 2017 at 3:57 AM


Nirjhar007 said...
Who gives a **** if its steppe or not , its not IE , that's the thing that matters.

I am not claiming any superiority you moron , THe Indo-Europeans were a successful lineage and that plain and simple , but I don't buy that crazy military dominant barbaric bullshit...

Its becoming evident day by day that R1b had nothing to do with IEs originally , they were assimilated later on.
March 7, 2017 at 3:57 AM


Richard Rocca said...
Gioiello said... But the R1b1a2-M269 from Iberia is confirmed against all what Rocca said against me and Genetiker.

Given that they used the ISOGG tree last month, R1b1a2 is indeed V88 and not M269. That must be very embarrassing for you.
March 7, 2017 at 6:16 AM
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
You never seen a preneolithic European mummy reconstruction before? Cu Oase, or your interpretation of la brana? It doesn't matter what ancient east Asians looked like, what matters is why the modern E.Asians don't more resemble Europeans, being that adaptive pressures are what shaped phenotype plasticly.

Also.... K2, << vs Native American .... K2! Xyyman ...have you ever read a paper where statistical significance peaked at K2... Especially when looking at unsupervised SNP's? - let alone a paper where general relatedness was inferred by analyzing 2 clusters?

Besides that here's some very loud peices of evidence that you are ignoring.
- modern Europeans have the lowest score for genetic diversity.
- modern Europeans are generally homogeneous when looking at area per gene ratio.
- R1b now Dominates Europe.
- Modern Europeans score highest for mutational load despite there being no evidence for ineffectiveness of removing deleterious mutations.
^
All of this and more that I can not think of off the top of my head points to an event, or multiple events of admixture, and or bottlenecks. It doesn't make sense to look away from genetics to try to understand why modern Europeans "look the way they do."
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
why do I bother


---

quote: "You never seen a preneolithic European mummy reconstruction before?"


--




 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Reluctantly, sometimes I think I am the smartest person out here. Just when I thought I had met an equal. Someone who has some rational and logical thinking….who is not into dogma and preconceived notions of what is and is not an Asian or European. Did you read my thread “ they found the race gene”?

Quote: “what matters is why the modern E.Asians don't more resemble Europeans, being that adaptive pressures are what shaped phenotype plasticly”.

---

“what matters is why the modern ‘ southern’ Negritos don't more resemble modern E Asians, being that adaptive pressures are what shaped phenotype plasticity”. ……..Tic! Toc! Tic! Toc! SMH
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The 10,000year old Sardinian is Kenyan? Ha! hA! Ha! Lol! Now R-V88 in ancient Europe. You know it takes a lot of kahuna’s for these racialist Europeans to publish the data. Earlier aDNA studies had consistently found mtDNA L in pre-historic Iberians. NoooW! Nada. What are they NOT disclosing?

------
Quote: “The CAR-H8 sample belongs to haplogroup I3, hence representing, to the best of our knowledge, the first pre-Neolithic sample carrying the haplogroup I.”

Quote:
“Distribution[edit]

Projected frequencies of mtDNA haplogroup I.
Haplogroup I is found at moderate to low frequencies in East Africa, Europe, West Asia and South Asia (Fernandes 2012). The rare basal/paraphyletic clade I* has been observed in three individuals; two from Somalia and one from Iran (Olivieri 2013).

Africa[edit]
Outside of Europe, the highest frequencies of mitochondrial haplogroup I observed so far appear in the Cushitic-speaking El Molo (23%) and Rendille (>17%) in northern Kenya (Castrì 2008). The clade is also found at comparable frequencies among the Socotri (~22%).”
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
xyyman you seem very focused on Europeans. If Europeans are depigmented plasticized Africans without heavy input from the Steppe, then who are the Steppe people descended from if they are in many cases depigmented as well?
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Besides that here's some very loud peices of evidence that you are ignoring.
- modern Europeans have the lowest score for genetic diversity.
- modern Europeans are generally homogeneous when looking at area per gene ratio.
- R1b now Dominates Europe.
- Modern Europeans score highest for mutational load despite there being no evidence for ineffectiveness of removing deleterious mutations

---

quote:

---

- modern Europeans have the lowest score for genetic diversity.
- modern Europeans are generally homogeneous when looking at area per gene ratio.
- R1b now Dominates Europe.
- Modern Europeans score highest for mutational load despite there being no evidence for ineffectiveness of removing deleterious mutations

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Neanderthal were mostly black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Neanderthal were mostly black.

---

do you have any proof?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
that is not a primary source quote and link

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Xyyman can't see that his questions were already answered, furthermore he himself already answered these questions.

what are the facts?

quote:

---

- modern Europeans have the lowest score for genetic diversity.
- modern Europeans are generally homogeneous when looking at area per gene ratio.
- R1b now Dominates Europe.
- Modern Europeans score highest for mutational load despite there being no evidence for ineffectiveness of removing deleterious mutations

---

Neanderthal were mostly black.
Neolithic Europeans were tropically adapted.

what can be inferred
Europeans, went through multiple admixture events and one major bottleneck or evolutionary event recently. The event which resulted in widespread homogeneity have yet to be explained.

There are PLENTY of polymorphisms within coding regions of pigment related genes. The mutations don't occur because they NEED to they are SELECTED FOR because they are needed. In other words mutations aren't adaptions but if we so happen to have a mutation that increases survivability, chances are it will be passed don't more efficiently.

You remember that supp table you posted from malick showing the high level of snp diversity in Africans and basically the opposite for Europeans ...?
remember how falloff in gene diversity was calculated via IBD?
Do you not see how all of this coincides with what I've been posting, geneflow, bottlenecks, variations?
Even if you were right about Africans entering Europe and morpholgically changing, how do you explain the disparity between African diversity and Europe, or even SSAn diversity and North Africa?

You're cutting corners.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] The point is 3 Neanderthal genome from Eurasia was published and is freely available.

---

Africans have SLC24A5 yet are not all light skinned therefore you cannot prove the Neanderthal were dark skinned.

Again, you have no quote reference. So you have mentioned this many times before and you cannot even go back to an old thread you made perhaps on ESR and show a quote.

Ish Gebor would not have this problem

It is because you and El Maestro are bluffing
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Not only were Neanderthals the first Europeans living in lower latitude, colder climate Europe longer than anatomically modern humans, but wasn't it discovered they had genes for red hair?? So how pray-tell were they 'black'?? If anything Neanderthals were the original whites!! LOL
 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
@ Xyman,

Your point about fast phenotypic changes only applies to limited craniometric variables, for example mean cephalic index within a relatively short time-frame (750 years) in Poland.

See figure 1 here:

http://www.academia.edu/27860888/The_influence_of_natural_selection_on_brachycephalization_in_Poland
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ignoring the two ignoramous. DJ the two tongued “afro-centric” and Lioness the provactuer. Neanderthal did not have red-hair FYI. That has been debunked.

---Anyways @ Cass. Agreed the astonishing rate of change will instill doubt in readers, but here may be an explanation….I was researching this to post to EL Maestro who seem to be able to provide credible discussion on the subject. But you can read it also...


Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution

Discussion
Our simple demographic model explains much of the recent pattern, but some aspects remain. Although the small number of
high-frequency variants (between 78% and 100%) is much more consistent with the demographic model than a constant rate of
change, it is still relatively low, even considering the rapid acceleration predicted by demography. Demographic change
may be the major driver of new adaptive evolution, but the detailed pattern must involve gene functions and gene– environment interactions.

The high empirical number of recent adaptive variants would seem sufficient to refute this claim (9, 12). It is
important to note that the peak ages of new selected variants in our data do not reflect the highest intensity of selection, but
merely our ability to detect selection. Because of the recent acceleration, many more new adaptive mutations should exist
than have yet been ascertained, occurring at a faster and faster rate***** during historic times****.

To the extent that new adaptive alleles continued to reflect demographic growth, the Neolithic and later periods would have
experienced a rate of adaptive evolution _100 times higher than characterized most of human evolution. Cultural changes have
reduced mortality rates, but variance in reproduction has continued to fuel genetic change (51).


Allele Ages. We used a modification of described methods (24–26) to estimate an allele age (coalescence time) for each selected
cluster. We focused on the HapMap populations with the largest sample sizes, which were theYRI andCEUsamples. Similar results
were obtained for the CHB and JPT populations (data not shown). Fig. 1 presents histograms of these age estimates. The YRI
sample shows a modal (peak) age of _8,000 years ago, assuming 25-year generations; the CEU sample shows a peak age of
_5,250 years ago, both values consistent with earlier work (9, 12). The difference in peak age likely explains why weaker tests
have found stronger evidence of selection in European ancestry samples (27, 28), unlike the current study.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I said many time modern West Africans are young and may be a bad exampla of ancient Africans. I posit that ancient Africans may be more like Australians.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Let them continue the delusion of Europeans are from the Steppes.


But quote: "The ancient samples from the Yamnaya archaeological culture are located on this eastern branch, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya population – in contrast to the published autosomal findings - still live in the Pontic steppe and were not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans."

lol!!!!!!! I can take the horse to the river......
 

---

Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
While I disagree with your other views, I agree the steppe/Yamna thing is nonsense. No coincidence its eastern European turds who push it since its in their ethnocentric interests.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The Steppes hypothesis is not “pushed” by “eastern Europeans” it is pushed by Western Europeans who do NOT want to acknowledge the fact they are recent African migrants. They prefer the label “near east” but Neolithics did NOT enter Europe from the Near East. Neolithic entered Europe from North Western Africa and Tunisia/Sardinia. Recent aDNA from the Levant/Natufians proved that. Kefi has proven that Western Europeans mtDNA is dissimilar to the Near East but clearly related to Mahgrebians. Now it looks like R-V88 is showing up in aDNA in Western Europe. This aDNA is clearly related to the Fulani’s R-V88. This is getting better and better. Lol! But I knew this more than five years ago!! Lol!

There were many clues in extant Africans and Europeans which the geneticist ignored until the aDNA is now shattering their illusion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
While I disagree with your other views, I agree the steppe/Yamna thing is nonsense. No coincidence its eastern European turds who push it since its in their ethnocentric interests.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] The point is 3 Neanderthal genome from Eurasia was published and is freely available.

---

Africans have SLC24A5 yet are not all light skinned therefore you cannot prove the Neanderthal were dark skinned.

Again, you have no quote reference. So you have mentioned this many times before and you cannot even go back to an old thread you made perhaps on ESR and show a quote.

Ish Gebor would not have this problem

It is because you and El Maestro are bluffing

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Neanderthal were mostly black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:


Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.... It all depends on if folks around here consider Khoisan variation black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:


..both East Asians and Europeans owe wide spread distribution to their levels of pigmentation to a recent event...

Does no one wonder why Inuits are darker than these guys?

---

The Inuit eat a lot of fish and get plenty of vitamin d. They also have not been in that region that long.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:


..both East Asians and Europeans owe wide spread distribution to their levels of pigmentation to a recent event...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

So given these vast amounts of time in the Northern hemisphere
in order to think that the Neanderthals were "mostly black" one would have to assume that skin color has no relation to UV levels

-even though there, although not exclusive, there is a broad pattern of it all over the Northern Hemisphere and in the East under other genes as well

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
That is the fascinating thing. "ALL" Neanderthal and Denisovan tested and published carried Ancestral alleles for black skin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Diebythesword:

quote:

---

Crackpot black supremacist
IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.

---

My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.

La Brana 1


This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.

Genotypes of Stone Age Europeans (pigmentation SNPs)

---

quote:

---

The genotypic combination leading to a predicted phenotype of dark skin and non-brown eyes is unique and no longer present in contemporary European populations.


Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome. The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n5112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n5113). This pattern confirms that the La Bran ̃a 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

---

quote:

---

Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
So here is what the White Europeans are saying about their black brothers


------------------------
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

Quote(s):
“The information about the origin and ethnic association of haplogroups on this website should not be read as hard facts, but, as is often the case in science, as a model in constant evolution based on the present knowledge and understanding (of the author). Whenever the advancement of genetics couldn't provide irrefutable answers, we have attempted to provide the most likely and logical hypothesis based on archeological, historical and linguistic evidence. This page is being updated regularly to keep up with recent studies giving additional insights or rectifying possibly erroneous theories. Feel free to add comments or share your opinion on the forum.

DNA Facts
Nucleobases are the alphabet of DNA. There are four of them : adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). They always go by pairs, A with T, and G with C. Such pairs are called "base pairs".
The 46 chromosomes of human DNA are composed of a total of 3,000 million base pairs.
The Y chromosome possess 60 million nucleobases, against 153 million for the X chromosome.
Mitochondrial DNA is found outside the cell's nucleus, and therefore outside of the chromosomes. It consists only of 16,569 bases.
A SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) is a mutation in a single base pair. At present, only a few hundreds SNP's define all the human haplogroups for mtDNA or Y-DNA.
“

“Firstly, the Y chromosome is a sequence of 60 million "characters" (nucleobases), against only 16,569 for mtDNA. The Y chromosome therefore offers a much greater resolution as mutations are more common, and indeed happen pretty much every generation. In contrast, mtDNA mutations happen much more infrequently. Since the time of the Mitochondrial Eve, approximately 200,000 years ago, modern humans have acquired in average 20 mtDNA mutations in each lineage - about one every ten thousand years. Even though the number of mutations has accelerated with the soaring of human population over the last 10,000 years, the dating of lineages based on mtDNA alone remains very approximate, and practically useless for historical times. By sequencing the full Y chromosome, it is theoretically possible to map the entire patrilineal genealogy of humanity (or any other species) within a few generations (in some cases even within one generation).”

“This included I*, pre-I1, I1, I2*, I2a*, I2a2, but the most widespread appears to have been I2a1, which was found in most parts of Europe. Northeast Europeans would have belonged mostly to haplogroup R1a. Other minor male lineages were certainly also present in parts of Europe, notably haplogroup A1a, C-V20, H2 (P96, formerly F3) and possibly even Q1a and R1b1* (P25).

“The maternal lineages of Mesolithic Europeans appears to have been predominantly U4 and U5, but also included several H subclades (H1, H3, H17), T, U2 and V.”

“There seem to have been several Palaeolithic and/or Mesolithic migrations from Northwest Africa to Iberia. The oldest might have brought West African haplogroup A1a to Western and Northern Europe during the Palaeolithic. A1a has been found in modern populations as far north as Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia and Finland. The presence of African maternal lineages (L2, L3 and possibly L1b1) has been attested in Neolithic Iberia. Northwest Africans would also have brought U6 and possibly HV0/V lineages to Europe.

A small percentage of sub-Saharan African admixture has been identified in Late Mesolithic Swedes from the Pitted Ware culture (2800-2000 BCE), which would imply that A1a was already present in northern Europe at the time. Another Mesolithic sample from Loschbour in Luxembourg had dark hair and ****considerably**** darker skin than modern Europeans.
“
“Agriculture first developed in the Levant, then spread to Anatolia, Greece, the Balkans, Italy, Central and Eastern Europe. These Neolithic farmers were confirmed to have belonged primarily to Y-DNA haplogroups G2a, but also included minorities of C1a2, E1b1b, H2 (formerly F3), J1, J2 and T1a lineages, who could have been assimilated in Anatolia before entering Europe. As they advanced across Europe Neolithic farmers also increasingly assimilated European lineages, notably E-M78 and I2a1 in Southeast Europe, I1 and I2a1 in Central Europe, I2a1 and I2a2a in Western Europe, and E-M78, I2a1 and I2a2a in Southwest Europe.”

“Hundreds of Neolithic samples from all over Europe (but especially Central Europe and Iberia) have been tested. The new lineages brought by these Near Eastern immigrants included mt-haplogroups HV, J1, J2, K1, K2, N*, N1, T1a, T2b, T2c, T2e, T2f, U3, W, X1, X2, and many subclades of H (including H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20). H4, H8 and H9 seem to have originated in the Near East as well, although ****no Neolithic sample has been identified in Europe ***yet.”

“Haplogroup V has never been found in prehistoric sites in Northeast Europe, nor in any Indo-European burial in the Eurasian steppe or Central Asia. It is nevertheless present in every part of Europe nowadays. Its frequency is higher than the European average in north-western Russia (> 5%), and peaks among the Sami (> 30%). Haplogroup V has also been found in most Uralic and Altaic populations across North Asia, and at trace frequencies as far as Korea and Japan. More intriguingly, ****haplogroup V is one of the four Eurasian haplogroups found among the Fulani people of Central Africa, who have high percentages of haplogroup R1b-V88.**** It is therefore likely that V was one of the original haplogroups of R1b people, and perhaps of the Paleolithic mammoth hunters from whom R1b is descended. Some V lineages could have been absorbed by the expansion of Ural-Altaic populations (Y-haplogroup N) in North Asia, which would explain its high frequency among the Finns and Sami.
“
“Haplogroup A (Y-DNA)

A is the oldest of all Y-DNA haplogroups. It originated in sub-Saharan Africa over 140,000 years ago, and possibly as much as 340,000 years ago if we include haplogroup A00. Modern populations with the highest percentages of haplogroup A are the Khoisan (such as the Bushmen) and the southern Sudanese.

There are only rare and isolated cases of European men belonging to haplogroup A. Commercial tests have identified a few Scottish and Irish families (surnames Boyd, Logan and Taylor) all belonging to the same A1b1b2 (M13) subclade. This subclade is normally found in East Africa (Ethiopia, Sudan), but has also been found in Egypt, the Arabian peninsula, Palestine, Jordan, Turkey, Sicily, Sardinia and Algeria. It was certainly brought to Europe by Levantine people, be it during the Neolithic or later (Phoenicians, Jews, immigration within the Roman Empire).

Haplogroup A1a* (M31) has been found in Finland, Norway and eastern England. This subclade is normally found along the west coast of Africa (Guinea-Bissau, Cape Verde, Mali, Morocco) and could have come*** to Europe during the Paleolithic.*** Indeed a few percent of sub-Saharan admixture was found among ancient DNA samples from Mesolithic Scandinavia tested by Skoglund et al. (2012).“

Haplogroup H & V (mtDNA)

Haplogroup H is by far the most common all over Europe, amounting to about 40% of the European population. It is also found (though in lower frequencies) in North Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, Northern Asia, as well as along the East coast of Africa as far as Madagascar.

Origins:
mtDNA
N => 75,000 years ago (arose in North-East Africa)
R => 70,000 years ago (in South-West Asia)
U => 60,000 years ago (in North-East Africa or South-West Asia)

yDNA
R1b-L21 => 4,000 years ago (in Central or Eastern Europe)
R1b-S28 => 3,500 years ago (around the Alps)
R1b-S21 => 3,000 years ago (in Frisia or Central Europe


Berber mtDNA

The Berbers are the indigenous populationof north-west Africa. Although their Y-DNA is almost perfectly homogenous, belonging to haplogroup E-M81, Berber maternal lineages show a much greater diversity, as well as regional disparity. At least half (and up to 90% in some regions) of the Berbers belong to some Eurasian lineages, such as H, HV, R0, J, T, U, K, N1, N2, and X2, mostly of Middle or Near Eastern origin. 5 to 45% of the Berbers will have sub-Saharan mtDNA (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5). There are only three native North African lineages, U6, X1 and M1, representing 0 to 35% of the people depending on the region.

Haplogroup U6 has been observed from the Iberia and the Canary Islands to Senegal in the West, and from Syria to Ethiopia and Kenya in the East. It is also found at low density in Europe, though mostly limited to Iberia. Approximately 10% of all North Africans belong to this lineage.

Haplogroup X (mtDNA)

Haplogroup X is a very old and scattered haplogroup found all over Eurasia, North Africa as well as among Native North Americans. It frequency rarely exceeds 5% of the population in any ethnic group, and is more often restricted to 1 or 2%. X1 is found almost exclusively in North Africa, while X2a is the only lineage present among Amerindians. X2d, X2e, X2n and X4 are found in Europe and Central Asia, and could therefore have been spread at least partially by the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

The strong presence of X2 around the Caucasus, progressively fading towards the Near East and Mediterranean , hints that it could be related to the spread of Y-DNA haplogroup G2a. R1b1b and G2a both having origins around the Caucasus it is unsurprising to find X2 alongside these two Y-DNA haplogroups

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