quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
I'm just not a fan of people using the concept of "cultural appropriation" to enforce separatism by telling people they can't wear or do certain things associated with other cultures. It might be understandable if the cultural artifacts in question have some sort of special spiritual significance (e.g. kippahs, the Polynesian tattoos you mentioned, or certain Native American headdresses), but that wouldn't apply to mundane subjects like hairstyles or foodstuffs.

Furthermore, the concept has potential for weaponization. If you've ever seen a racist North African "Arab" accuse Black people of cultural appropriation for wearing ankhs or Berber tattoos, you should know what I mean.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Berber tattoos on an Afro american is Appropriation. And people who wear ankhs are typically hoteps (in the most literal sense) ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
[QB] I'm just not a fan of people using the concept of "cultural appropriation" to enforce separatism by telling people they can't wear or do certain things associated with other cultures.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
 It might be understandable if the cultural artifacts in question have some sort of special spiritual significance (e.g. kippahs, the Polynesian tattoos you mentioned, or certain Native American headdresses), but that wouldn't apply to mundane subjects like hairstyles or foodstuffs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

Furthermore, the concept has potential for weaponization. If you've ever seen a racist North African "Arab" accuse Black people of cultural appropriation for wearing ankhs or Berber tattoos, you should know what I mean.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
As she also mentions in the video dreadlock like hairstyles have existed among Native Americans, in India and also in Europe. Braiding of different kinds have also existed all over the world. So it can be hard to lay claim to those hairstyles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

And also some black people in USA are guilty of cultural appropriation when they use Native American  dresses, symbols, headgear and sometimes even claim that they are the original Indigenous people of the Americas. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Key phase: "Dreadlock like"
The way Black people get locs is different from the way non-Black people do. And she even states there's hardly any solid evidence that they were locs. Point is we only really see African style versions of locs on non-Black people after the popularity of Bob Marley/Reggae.

---

quote:

---

This is a HUGE reach and you even know this. Only a fringe group does/believes this in the Black American community. I can tell you probably don't live in America. A better example would be Black people mainly REAL hoteps rocking ankh jewerly or using the ankh symbol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

quote:

---

Key phase: "Dreadlock like"
The way Black people get locs is different from the way non-Black people do. And she even states there's hardly any solid evidence that they were locs. Point is we only really see African style versions of locs on non-Black people after the popularity of Bob Marley/Reggae.

---

Well, some of the Indian, or Native hairstyles are more or less indistinguishable from some black peoples dreadlocks, and in some depictions of the polish plates they are at least very like. But I can agree that many of the whites having dreadlocks do perhaps not have polish plates in mind.

quote:

---

This is a HUGE reach and you even know this. Only a fringe group does/believes this in the Black American community. I can tell you probably don't live in America. A better example would be Black people mainly REAL hoteps rocking ankh jewerly or using the ankh symbol.

---

That is not a reach, it is actually a problem that Native Americans themselves have adressed. The African Americans that try to appropriate Native American culture and history are maybe not overwhelmingly many but some of them are rather active, especially on social media. There have also been attempts to sneak in especially the African Olmec myth in academic contexts as for example Greg Wiggans et als paper that was later retracted.
So if Black Americans do not want whites to wear dreadlocks maybe they ought also adress those African Americans who continue appropriate Native American culture in different ways. Fortunately some do, like Umar Johnson, Chief X and Richard Kittles to mention just a couple of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Well, some of the Indian, or Native hairstyles are more or less indistinguishable from some black peoples dreadlocks, and in some depictions of the polish plates they are at least very like. But I can agree that many of the whites having dreadlocks do perhaps not have polish plates in mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
That is not a reach, it is actually a problem that Native Americans themselves have adressed. The African Americans that try to appropriate Native American culture and history are maybe not overwhelmingly many but some of them are rather active, especially on social media. There have also been attempts to sneak in especially the African Olmec myth in academic contexts as for example Greg Wiggans et als paper that was later retracted.
So if Black Americans do not want whites to wear dreadlocks maybe they ought also adress those African Americans who continue appropriate Native American culture in different ways. Fortunately some do, like Umar Johnson, Chief X and Richard Kittles to mention just a couple of them.

---

quote:

---

The aesthetics maybe similar but how its done are not. People of African descent braid their hairs TIGHTER than people with non-4 type hair among many other factors. Each hair type has their advantages and disadvantages(I personally believe no hair type is superior over the other), but the advantage of type 4 hair is that it doesn't have to be washed all the time, however people with 4 type locs CAN wash their hair unlike people with non-4 type hair. So its a myth that you get locs(or at least the African version if it) via not washing. Hence the lady in the video even addressed.

---

quote:

---

Yes, it is a reach and a terrible one at that. Like I said you can only point to FRINGE groups in the Black community like most people who want to project on Black people. Like I said, I doubt you live in the USA. The average Black American doesn't even know what the heck an Olmec is if you ask them. Moving on, no one in the Black community takes those three people seriously, especially Umar Johnson who is made fun of especially by Gen Z Black people. More importantly Umar is Afrocentric, he doesn't even adhere to that fringe "indigenous" movement. How about you fetch us MAINSTREAM Black American media or academics arguing that Black Americans are indigenous. And again NOT fringe groups/pseudo-intellectuals. Show me popular Black American celebrities wearing Native American dresses, headreases, etc. lol.
There is actually MORE evidence of White Americans claiming a indigenous ancestry. Hence terms like "5 dollar Indian." Black Americans also aren't the ones who freaking named a sports team "Redskins" and had to have the name changed decades LATER due to protests. We also AREN'T the ones who exotified/commercialized their culture....https://qz.com/805704/columbus-day-cultural-appropriation-white-americans-need-to-stop-assuming-native-american-culture-belongs-to-them-too

---

quote:

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I gave you a better example with Ankhs or heck "Nubian queen" yet you didn't wanna compromise... *shrugs* I'm not saying Black people AREN'T innocent of appropriation, but like usually people who LOVE to criticize Black people always pick the most fringe group.

---

quote:

---

Archeopteryx, just an aside, you are aware there are Black people who actually have Native ancestors right? Or do you just automatically assume they are all pretendians trying to usurp Native history?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Aestetically and visually the dreadlocks and similar locks are rather alike, so the original concept of that kind of hair is not only invented by black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

Not a reach at all, as long as it bothers some Native Americans it is a problem. Those groups who conduct these forms of appropriation are rather active on social media so they have an influence, even if they are not so many. Some of them also try to spread their ideas through art work (as the hotly debated Olmec heads in murals about African American history) and in academia like in university courses about the Black presence in Mexico which also included the Olmecs.

Some write children books or make children videos trying to spread the appropriation to young people.

It may be a minority who promotes those ideas but it still is a nuisance for Native Americans who already have lost land, lives, and also through the times been forbidden to express their own cultures (just like blacks have been).

So for Native Americans it is a nuisance that both white and black Americans are trying to steal or usurp their history.

When I mentioned Dr Umar I meant that he actually protested against black peoples pretending to be Native Americans, so he obviously does not adhere to that notion. Rickard Kittles have protested against black people claiming to be the Native Americans too. He is a geneticist.

An academic who has promoted the Black Olmec idea is Greg Wiggan who published an academic article who was later retracted, as I already linked too.

]I do not mean that Black people are alone appropriating Native culture, or other cultures, but whites are not alone either doing it. Both groups are guilty of such things, even if whites do it more and have a much bigger power base in spreading their kind of appropriation.

So maybe both groups ought to adress the worst sinners among them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
@ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey

So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
@ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey

So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?

---

quote:

---

While it is cool and true to say "We should let people wear any hairstyle they want"
It is also true but sad that "In many cases such as that with Dreadlocks, the fashion has become so mainstream it was disassociated with the source culture and even re-branded as indigenous (as a practice) to many other cultures."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
I'm glad this silly myth is getting debunked day by day, especially as a person who has started his hair journey and has been getting more and more into the "anthropology" or history of "Black hair."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCnacDWAOFc&ab_channel=SnappyDragon

---

quote:

---

Snappy Dragon
Historical costuming, youtube

Ugh, white people with "dreads".
These delusionals are your white Rastas. Uh, they're big Marley fans, they think they're
Black. Semi-political, but mostly-- Smoke a lot of weed?
Don't even get me started on you too!
I live in the Bay Area, which means every August (except the past two) half the population of my
town gets all done up to go to some thing in the desert, and I end up seeing a lot of this.

My hair may be curly, but it’s
not curly enough to truly loc. Similar-looking hairstyles on straight hair have a different
structure because they don’t have the coil in their texture. They’re basically long, cylindrical
tangles, which I refer to as “matts”.


Loc-like hairstyles do have long histories in certain
non-Black cultures, especially ones with trade connections to Africa : they have an extremely
long history in Hindu religion and may also have been worn by the ancient Hebrew Nazirites.
Loc-like styles also have a history among some Tibetan Bhuddists, Indigenous North Americans,
Indigenous Australians, and possibly the Aztecs. However . . . none of these people are white.

So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it
Actual Viking hairstyles
is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation of Viking-age Norse
imagery by white supremacists.

---

come come now my white people, we must be prim and proper,
none of this mischievousness and rambunction
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

quote:

---

Aesthetically doesn't mean anything, because once again the way African style locs is braided/done is NOT the same as East Indians or any other non-Black people. Plus East Indians have a more matted look anyways. So yea your bolded already fall flat. Watch the video again...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great
Aesthetically doesn't mean anything, because once again the way African style locs is braided/done is NOT the same as East Indians or any other non-Black people. Plus East Indians have a more matted look anyways. So yea your bolded already fall flat. Watch the video again...

---

quote:

---

Before I even continue, do you live in the USA or not? Because its very relevant.

---

It is not relevant since the problems will be there whether I am there or not. Do you live in Egypt since you now and then write about Egypt? Most people here on ES write a lot about Egypt without actually living there. Some have a lot of opinions about people in different African countries (and other places too), without actually living there, or without even having sat their foot there

The main point I want to mediate is that it is hypocritical of African Americans to complain over some white people wearing dreadlocs while at the same time certain African Americans claim to be the true Native Americans or that Africans were in the Americas first and things like that. Even if they are few their presence on the net is noticeable. At least the whites who wear locs mostly do not claim they were first in Africa or that they are the true Africans. They do not question the whole existence of black people.

The people claiming and usurping Native American culture is seen as a problem among some Native Americans whether they are few and many. That is what matters. It goes deeper than some locs.





Because It Matters - Black Indians were already here!


 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
@Askia Notice the bait and switch tactics again. We know specifically the popularized style referenced. We as well as the lady in the video addressed it's ubiquity. The concept is easy to understand but alas logic resonates with blacks. So guess what, now it's time for the patronizing.

"Well, some Africans have had tattoos too. It might be hard to tell apart Maori Tribal sleeves from theirs. No Maori should accuse a black man of stealing or appropriation?"

"They eye of horus and the ankh looks like sacred sigils of other cultures. So it isn't appropriation to rock those either. (to no credit of the cultural source)"

"They also wear bird feathers and white garb for ritual ceremony in Africa, it'll be very hard for the untrained to notice the difference from Native american customs, so Native americans should shut f* up about appropriation if black people are wearing similar things"

-retard logic. Don't take the bait.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
...
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Borrowing of hair styles, certain clothes and similar exist among many peoples. But to complain that some others wear African American style locs while not complaining over African Americans claiming other cultures or dressing up like other people is just hypocritical.
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
@ Askia, Elmaestro, and Punos_Rey

So, just to make sure we're on the same page, you guys aren't actually arguing it's always wrong for non-Black people to wear their hair in dreadlocks or African-style braids, are you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Borrowing of hair styles, certain clothes and similar exist among many peoples. But to complain that some others wear African American style locs while not complaining over African Americans claiming other cultures or dressing up like other people is just hypocritical.

---

No one here was complaining about either, but if I would complain about one I'd complain about the other. You can do well as to ignore the Nuance being explained to Brandon and chalk it up as collective "complaining" as if black people are a hive minded species but I'll just continue to expose your brain dead logic. You have an odd habit of patronizing. Notice also now that the problem is with hypocrisy and no longer with censorship.

How about you premise all of your posts protecting the identity of whichever culture you choose that day by denouncing Scandinavian depictions with Locs, Tribal tattoos and Horned helmets. And do it every single time! Remember folks, You can't call it out if someone who identifies with your tribe has done it before. Regardless if it has anything to do with you personally.

--retard logic attempt #2
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Your post is unintelligible so I will ignore it. But I can tell as much as that I think it's a worse kind of appropriation when some Afrocentric and wabocentric[1] extremists claim to be the "real" Native Americans. They are not content with borrowing a hairstyle, they want to take an entire culture from another people. Maybe some African Americans could be more active in calling those people out than complaining over locs.
---------------------------------
[1] Wabocentric after "Wabo" = Wannabee aboriginal
--------------

 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it
Actual Viking hairstyles
is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation of Viking-age Norse
imagery by white supremacists.

---

Seems many want a bit of the Viking glory






(The pic is in reality from the movie Black Panther)

Thread: Topic: Not even the Vikings were white – Part 2
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://blackvikingbrewing.com
_____________________________________________

https://samadamsbostontaproom.com/blog/2023/innovation-collaboration-2023-black-viking-brewing

Sam Adams

Something innovative is BREWING at our Sam Adams Downtown Boston Taproom! We’ve partnered with Black Viking Brewery, the first black-owned brewery in MoCo, Maryland to bring you Storm of the Century (6% ABV). This beautiful ginger black lager kicks-off the 2023 Sam Adams Innovation Collaboration Series, a series that helps highlight other breweries sharing our ethos of innovation through amazing small-batch beers.

With its punch of ginger, Storm of the Century is smooth, roasty and a little bit spicey, and is the perfect lager to enjoy as the weather gets warmer. “When I first tasted Black Viking Brewing’s Zingabier, I was floored. The use of the ginger was some of the best I've ever tasted in a beer, and immediately knew we could create something special together!” explains Head Brewer, Megan Parisi, as the inspiration behind this perfect storm.

Releasing on Thursday, April 6th, this brew will be available on draft and in special crowlers to-go. We’ll be celebrating the Storm of The Century’s release with our friends from Black Viking that very same day, starting at 5:30pm. The festivities will feature a special pairing from Brewing The American Dream entrepreneur, Delectable Desires, and 80s and 90s hip hop pumping through our speakers all night!

The Sam Adams Downtown Boston Taproom Innovation Collaboration series was started in 2021, showcasing that the Taproom is a “Home of Innovation” for all. Past, present and future collaborations serve as a commitment to making a positive impact in the brewing industry through expanded opportunities, resources, and amplification of brewers and breweries we think you should know about.

Be on the lookout and save the dates for our other upcoming Innovation Collaborations this year!





https://www.amazon.com/Black-Viking-Bill-Downey/dp/B001KTO8PS

1981
Publisher ‏ : ‎ Fawcett;

Gunnar Black Wolf, son of a Viking lord and a Moorish slave, grows up as one of the chosen of Odin and the companion of prince Harald Finehair. He returns home from fun and free-booting to find his adoptive parents, wife, and child dead, and vows vengeance against their slayer. In the course of this quest, he becomes outlawed and is driven to lead a mighty raid against the Franks.


Currently unavailable, Amazon
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




10 is a 1979 American romantic comedy film written, produced and directed by Blake Edwards and starring Dudley Moore, Julie Andrews, Robert Webber and Bo Derek. It was considered a trendsetting film at the time of its release and became one of the year's biggest box-office hits. The film follows a middle-aged man who becomes infatuated with a young woman whom he has never met, leading to a comic chase and an encounter in Mexico.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
First it was fighting again censorship
"Black people shouldn't be able to dictate what others wear or style their hair"
-simple answer: black people can't dictate how others decorate or ornament themselves however universally it's appropriation of the worst kind to disassociate cultural elements from the parent culture"

Then it became [b]"calling out hypocrisy"
Black people can't call out appropriation because there's some other irrelevant black people I seen on the internet dressed like native Americans"
-simple answer: Black people aren't a monolithic hivemind. Saying a black person is not allowed identify cultural appropriation because other black people might be appropriating other cultures is asinine. It's just as stupid as saying a Scandinavian can't call out appropriation because other Scandinavians are being depicted with cultural adornments not of their own.

Now it's simply mockery.
" post is unintelligible, Afrocentrics and Wabocentrics ruined my marriage!"


Truth is, she probably likes the African dreads on her Vikings. She just can't stomach the fact that it's African. 😂
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Dredlocks are not even very popular in Africa



whatever you want to call this hairstyle, show me an African with this hairstyle

quote:

---

Snappy Dragon
Historical costuming, youtube

they don’t have the coil in their texture. They’re basically long, cylindrical
tangles, which I refer to as “matts”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
@Askia Notice the bait and switch tactics again. We know specifically the popularized style referenced. We as well as the lady in the video addressed it's ubiquity. The concept is easy to understand but alas logic resonates with blacks. So guess what, now it's time for the patronizing.

"Well, some Africans have had tattoos too. It might be hard to tell apart Maori Tribal sleeves from theirs. No Maori should accuse a black man of stealing or appropriation?"

"They eye of horus and the ankh looks like sacred sigils of other cultures. So it isn't appropriation to rock those either. (to no credit of the cultural source)"

"They also wear bird feathers and white garb for ritual ceremony in Africa, it'll be very hard for the untrained to notice the difference from Native american customs, so Native americans should shut f* up about appropriation if black people are wearing similar things"

-retard logic. Don't take the bait.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
@Lioness

Key phase: "Loc-like." Not necessarily the same locs that Black people wear or the technique used to get those locs. Hardly any non-Black person before the rasta movement had locs like these.
https://wordpress.styleseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/04-class-dreadlocks.webp


And the "locs" you claim these people have aren't even locs but really matted hair. Like I said if they were to get "locs" the African technique it would mess up their hair and cause balding because fine hair is NOT MEANT for those types of styles. And its already been proven that the Vikings did NOT have that type of locs(even in the video) so not sure why you posted it.

And as a person who's been to Africa 6 fucking times(more than you) and plan on going back 2 times next year, yes the fuck locs are big in Africa especially among certain ethnic groups like the Mau Mau who the Rastas got it from.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/17/91/f9/1791f9d1dc1195c012f1eab73d412bc9.jpg
https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/f8Sk9kpTURBXy85ZWVkNjZhZDA5MjRkOWZkNjMxMzVjYzA2NjY1NDlmNi5qcGeRlQLNAZbNAZbCw94AAqEwBaExAA
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/c7/6b/f0c76b3f3fde2408a38e527707edf1bc.jpg

Additionally more and more younger Africans on the continent are rocking locs. Locs in Africa(outside of the youth) are associated with more spiritual journey.

---

quote:

---

"9:27
So, Viking-age Norse hairstyles. This is probably the one I hear most often, despite how contrary it
is to the historical record. Guessing that’s got something to do with the frequent appropriation
of Viking-age Norse imagery by white supremacists.

---

^^ This doesn't make too much sense, are we to believe that supposedly trying to evoke rastas,
this is part of white supremacists cultural appropriation of Nordics?
And the whole thing is kind of late to be complain about. Hippie-ish white people have been doing their hair like this for how long? a couple of decades?
To me this is like black people straightening their hair and dying it blond
.


.







these are braids !!
not even locs then are these even usurping dreadlocks?

quote:

---

And the "locs" you claim these people have aren't even locs but really matted hair

---

Yes, that is what I was saying, if it's not even dreadlocks then where's the "appropriation"?

This whole "cultural appropriation" issue is old. When were people talking about this, 2014?




These are dredlocks

If this is a problem Mary J Blige and Niki Minaj is a problem

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
And as a person who's been to Africa 6 fucking times(more than you) and plan on going back 2 times next year, yes the fuck locs are big in Africa especially among certain ethnic groups like the Mau Mau who the Rastas got it from.

---

quote:

---

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kenya/comments/15g8s4c/why_is_having_dreadlocks_a_bad_thing/

Martin_084
•
3 mo. ago
Dreadlocks in Kenya is associated with gangs - and whatnot. You become a target of the police, especially for these young guys who stay in the ghetto.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

---

quote:

---

https://theconversation.com/in-nigeria-dreadlocks-are-entangled-with-beliefs-about-danger-123463

In Nigeria, dreadlocks are entangled with beliefs about danger
Published: September 19, 2019

A grown man wearing his hair in dreadlocks is bound to attract attention in Nigeria. And it’s not always positive attention. Many Nigerians, regardless of their education and status, view dreadlocked men as dangerous. The hairstyle sometimes even gets a violent reaction.

A popular phrase used by Yoruba people to describe dreadlocks is “a crazy person’s hair”....

In the 1970s and 80s, other Nigerian musicians like Majek Fashek were inspired by the fame of Jamaican reggae artists to begin styling their hair the same way. From the 1990s, Nigerian footballers joined in by wearing cornrows and dreadlocks.

Barring these exceptions, adults with unkempt hair are judged deviant beings who have become conduits for evil. Since it is difficult to differentiate between adults wearing dreadlocks as fashion statement from those with “evil dreadlocks”, people either flee from them or attack them out of fear and self preservation.

---

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
this, I think is, relatively more concerning





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AI29xwQoOI

Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle


Barbers Hill Independent School District prohibits male students from having hair extending below the eyebrows, ear lobes or top of a T-shirt collar, according to the student handbook. Additionally, hair on all students must be clean, well-groomed, geometrical and not an unnatural color or variation. The school does not require uniforms.

George's mother, Darresha George, and the family's attorney deny the teenager's hairstyle violates the dress code. The family last month filed a formal complaint with the Texas Education Agency and a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state’s governor and attorney general, alleging they failed to enforce a new law outlawing discrimination based on hairstyles.

The family alleges George's suspension and subsequent discipline violate the state’s CROWN Act, which took effect Sept. 1. The law, an acronym for “Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair,” is intended to prohibit race-based hair discrimination and bars employers and schools from penalizing people because of hair texture or protective hairstyles including Afros, braids, dreadlocks, twists or Bantu knots.

A federal version passed in the U.S. House last year, but was not successful in the Senate.
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AI29xwQoOI

Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle

this I think is relatively more concerning, I think

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
this I think is relatively more concerning, I think





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AI29xwQoOI

Black student at Texas high school suspended over hairstyle


Barbers Hill Independent School District prohibits male students from having hair extending below the eyebrows, ear lobes or top of a T-shirt collar, according to the student handbook. Additionally, hair on all students must be clean, well-groomed, geometrical and not an unnatural color or variation. The school does not require uniforms.

George's mother, Darresha George, and the family's attorney deny the teenager's hairstyle violates the dress code. The family last month filed a formal complaint with the Texas Education Agency and a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state’s governor and attorney general, alleging they failed to enforce a new law outlawing discrimination based on hairstyles.

The family alleges George's suspension and subsequent discipline violate the state’s CROWN Act, which took effect Sept. 1. The law, an acronym for “Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair,” is intended to prohibit race-based hair discrimination and bars employers and schools from penalizing people because of hair texture or protective hairstyles including Afros, braids, dreadlocks, twists or Bantu knots.

A federal version passed in the U.S. House last year, but was not successful in the Senate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
And..... This is essentially what me, Elmaestro and Punos_Rey been saying... And why I been saying why certain hairstyles are "sacred" to Black ppl and why some Black ppl(and mostly rightfully so) get bitter and frustrated when non-Black people rock "Black" hairstyle as a costume.
Case and point Justin Bieber.
https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:11a6b18a-fa88-11eb-84ca-0e0dce71f2a5?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn&legacyStatusCode=true&format=webp&width=1600

---

^^ that's Justin Timberlake 13 years ago

https://parade.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Ch_2000%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_2000/MTkwNTc4MTIwOTM4ODkwMzY1/justin-timberlake-through-the-years-a-hair-timeline.jpg


Justin Timberlake, May 2000



Justin Bieber 2016

quote:

---

Bieber’s latest 2016 hairstyle will definitely go in the books for one of his most shocking.

Justin shared a photo on IG of him rocking cornrows while on vacation in St. Barts with his rumored girlfriend Hailey Baldwin, who he says influenced him to get his hair braided.

"Hailey made me get corn rows like an absolute douche bag, these will be off tomorrow trust me Danny"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
And..... This is essentially what me, Elmaestro and Punos_Rey been saying... And why I been saying why certain hairstyles are "sacred" to Black ppl and why some Black ppl(and mostly rightfully so) get bitter and frustrated when non-Black people rock "Black" hairstyle as a costume. Case and point Justin Bieber.
https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:11a6b18a-fa88-11eb-84ca-0e0dce71f2a5?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn&legacyStatusCode=true&format=webp&width=1600


Non-Blacks don't NEED these hairstyles to really grow out their hair. People with 4 type of hair depend on these type of protective styles for their hair to grow due to 4 type hair being very vulnerable. But also the fact that when these hairstyles are on Black people they are deemed "inappropriate" but on non-Black people its "exotic" or trendy. Again this is why certain Black people are bitter. And why we needed a damn "crown act" to protect ourselves from crap like this.

But hey us angry Afrocentrics are being "unreasonable."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
@BrandonP

Our argument was never gatekeeping but protecting parts of our culture we believe are sacred from being erased. See my Eminem example again. No one is (besides extreme haters) is telling Eminem to stop rapping because he is White instead many Black people respect Eminem. Why? Because he respects the culture, gives credit where its due and doesn't see it as a costume.

Its the same thing with British Punk stars during the British Invasion giving credit to Black Rhythm and Blues artists. Again showing respect and not ERASING the original ppl from said culture.

The Justin Timberlake Biebers, Kardashians, etc of the world its a costume for them and they either unwillingly or even sometimes willingly erase the original group of that culture. And tbh the whole "Vikings had dreadlocks" was really a weak argument by those who WANT to WILLINGLY appropriate to erase.

Not telling non-Black ppl to NOT wear Black hairstyles is a whole different ball game. But like I said "fine hair"(which is scientifically proven) can be damaged by African braiding techniques. Heck the products ppl with kinky hair use are usually took "heavy" for ppl with non-kinky hair.

---

Well said.
Only thing missing is to elaborate on how appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide. But I can predict how a deep conversation point of that type will go around here.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Maybe the woman in the OP also could make a video about white people and black people mimicking Native American hairstyles. Native American peoples hair has for a long time been discriminated against. Already in the days of the residential schools Native children were forced to cut their hair to look more "civilized". Hair was used as a weapon in the ethnocide against indigenous peoples.
Still both whites and blacks are now and then sporting hairstyles which were originally used by Native Americans.

One such hairstyle is the so called Mohawk hairstyle. It is a hairstyle that has deep traditional roots among indigenous peoples in the eastern woodlands of America, The style has been usurped and mimicked by both White and Black people.

The Internet site Afroculture.Net for example promotes Mohawk hairstyles for black men.

Mohawk hairstyles for Black men - Afroculture Net


 

---

Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 
@Elmaestro @BrandonP

Another good example of why Black people fight so fiercely against cultural appropriation.
https://jezebel.com/white-people-are-rebranding-cornrows-as-boxer-braids-1765012240

Archeopteryx
Now are Black men trying to rebrand or claim Mohawks as apart of Black culture? No. And that website even GIVES Natives credit for the Mohawk and even mentions how it was made more mainstream by WHITE punk artists. Black men aren't even the only ones nor the first non-Natives to rock Mohawks. I agree with Elmaestro that you really do need to touch grass. Your weird obsession on what Black people can do and not do is cringe when you live all the way in Sweden. No offense.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Well it is still as much theft as if a white persons wear locs. You complain over Whites appropriating Black culture, but when Blacks appropriating Native culture you are trying to diminish the problem.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
(Matthew 7:3)



But maybe the woman in the OP will adress the appropriation of Native hairstyles, clothes and other things by both whites and blacks too.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Here is a Native Americans view about both Black and Whites appropriating Native culture

This goes out to the Pretendians and Culture Vultures
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Maybe the woman in the OP also could make a video about white people and black people mimicking Native American hairstyles. Native American peoples hair has for a long time been discriminated against. Already in the days of the residential schools Native children were forced to cut their hair to look more "civilized". Hair was used as a weapon in the ethnocide against indigenous peoples.
Still both whites and blacks are now and then sporting hairstyles which were originally used by Native Americans.

One such hairstyle is the so called Mohawk hairstyle. It is a hairstyle that has deep traditional roots among indigenous peoples in the eastern woodlands of America, The style has been usurped and mimicked by both White and Black people.

The Internet site Afroculture.Net for example promotes Mohawk hairstyles for black men.

Mohawk hairstyles for Black men - Afroculture Net

---

https://www.lookphotos.com/en/images/71369106-Angola-western-part-of-the-province-of-Cunene-young-man-from-the-Mucohona-ethnic-group-with-mohawk-hairstyle
Angola; western part of the province of Cunene; young man from the
Mucohona (Mucawana) ethnic group
_____________________________


https://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-photo-himba-male-epupa-namibia-august-unidentified-man-standing-tourists-visit-settlement-august-namibia-image33709005
Himba man, Namibia



wait a minute, who appropriated what?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by the Lioness
I think they are only bad when
- done to mock
OR
- make a false claim that someone else's culture actually belongs to yours, that they are imposters

---

Also when some group uses another cultures (especially if it concerns an economically disadvantaged minority) specific clothes, jewelry, artwork and similar to earn money.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

71% Sub-Saharan African
23% Native American
6% European

~A DNA test whose results were displayed on the show Lopez Tonight (2010)
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Dane Calloway is an idiot but why worry over it?
It's freedom of speech, let it pass, people on this continent can handle it. They can fight their own battles
Europeans are the ones who displaced Native Americans and took over in the first place, so would they elect a European to chastise certain fringe black people for going overboard trying to be indigenous ?
 

---

Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 
Once again are Black people rebranding/erasing Native American culture? Yes or no?

An example of erasure:
https://jezebel.com/white-people-are-rebranding-cornrows-as-boxer-braids-1765012240

Your arguments this entire thread are just a bunch of deflections and projections. And there ARE Black admixed Native American groups like the "Black Seminoles" and yes they are a real group and not some "hotep" creation. They were runaway slaves/rebels absorbed by Natives.

And tbh American culture in general is creolized. You wouldn't know that since you don't live here. Again the issue is NOT non-Blacks taking part in Black culture such as hairstyles but the whole erasing the original people from it...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The whole hair thing is silly.
Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views

https://www.youtube.com/@danecalloway

Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Obviously there are people who also think that Black people participate in the erasure of Native American culture. Some black people are not content in only appropriating some hairstyle, they want to displace the whole Native American culture and claim they were in the America first and thus have the right to Native land and Native rights. That is a worse problem than some people mimicking locs.

Both pretendians (whereof many are White) and Wabos (mostly Black) worry Native Americans.

Here is a video about those groups, participating in indigenous erasure, and many also earning money on the erasure.

quote:

---

In this video, I will briefly discuss the relevance of these two groups of people and the harm they can cause to Indigenous people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The whole hair thing is silly.
Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views

https://www.youtube.com/@danecalloway

Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Some black people are not content in only appropriating some hairstyle, they want to displace the whole Native American culture and claim they were in the America first and thus have the right to Native land and Native rights. That is a worse problem than some people mimicking locs.

---

quote:

---

belief that the people of Great Britain are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The whole hair thing is silly.
Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views

https://www.youtube.com/@danecalloway

Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles

---

Fringe group. Umar Johnson gets even more views than Dane and he is still just a loud minority who many don't take serious. Lets see mainstream examples. I'm talking Howard university for example promoting this...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the Lioness
why worry about these small fringe movements going nowhere? Why put so much energy into it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
some of the Natives I talked with think that some of these movements can influence politicians and other people in power, at least locally, which can have consequences for Native people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The whole hair thing is silly.
Dane Calloway and other "Abos" have a whole alternate history for black people and his channel has 41 million views

https://www.youtube.com/@danecalloway

Askia, you ever seen this? This is way deeper (in the wrong way) then people messing with hairstyles

---

Fringe group. Umar Johnson gets even more views than Dane and he is still just a loud minority who many don't take serious. Lets see mainstream examples. I'm talking Howard university for example promoting this...

---

The thing is we are in a new internet world now
people are being educated on the internet from youtube videos

Look in the "about" tab of a youtuber
4,000 views ? who cares?

But what if it's 400,000
or 4 million?

I think Dane Calloway, Mr Imhotep, Metatron
are with mentioning because they have influence,
they get millions of views and many thousands of subscribers

>> although I only occasionally mention them,
Archeopteryx seems to be on a mission

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the Lioness
why worry about these small fringe movements going nowhere? Why put so much energy into it?

---

Because my Native American friends worry about it.

It is not easy to prove how much power they can put in place to actually erase Native Americans for real. But some of the Natives I talked with think that some of these movements can influence politicians and other people in power, at least locally, which can have consequences for Native people.

Yes I heard about British Israelism and I heard about Mormons and others who also are spreading misinformation.

But maybe I will reason more about it in another thread. This thread was about locs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
I know don't even know who Dane Calloway or either of those ppl you listed are. Sure a naive Black person will come across their content and be like "DAMN!!!! I didn't know that!" But that's about it... Not just that the average person doesn't even care about history like that.

---

There are people on youtube now like HomeTeam History, Dane Calloway , Mr Imhotep, who make videos using
professional level documentary editing and narration and are getting millions of views.
I recommend watching some of their videos just to see wants going on.

There are also people that start youtube channels now with no official credentials who comment on news and world events, some of them are on a competitive level of views and influence with actual news companies
 

---

Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 
Those are individual Youtubers. Lets see larger platforms that can reach mass audiences when it comes to getting their views out. And I mean across MULTIPLE medias. The only good example would be that Queen Cleopatra documentary. Which also gathered all types of protests from Egyptians. We aren't seeing Native Americans or other non-Black groups protest Dane Calloway in mass. Now are we? And more importantly the average person doesn't even care about history to begin with.

Anyways, like I said we are getting off-topic.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I had read a couple of things that there is some old writings describing Viking hairstyles (or some particular character) including "rope-like" or "snake-like" styles but didn't see a sourced quote
(although I didn't not do deep research for the source). The remarks seemed vague as to what was being described


this in my judgment are real dreds
I'm not sure how it was done though, if it was just by not combing or brushing or if some other method was used also
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Back to hairstyles: It is hard to take some patent on hairstyles, especially styles that existed in different cultures through millennia, like "cornrows". The name is rather late, and that hairstyle probably had many names in different languages through times.

quote:

---

History

The oldest known depictions of hairstyles that appear to be cornrows or braids are the statues known as the Venus of Brassempouy and the Venus of Willendorf, which date to 25,000-30,000 years ago and were found in modern day France and Austria.

Depictions of women with cornrows have been found in Stone Age paintings in the Tassili Plateau of the Sahara, and have been dated as far back as 3000 B.C. As well as the cornrow style is seen in depictions of ancient Cushitic people of the horn of Africa wearing this style of braids as far back as 2000 B.C. The traditional hairstyle of Roman Vestal Virgins incorporated cornrows.

The tradition of female hairstyling in cornrows has remained popular throughout Africa, particularly in the Horn of Africa and West Africa and the rest of Africa as a whole. Historically, male hairstyling with cornrows can be traced as far back as the early 5th century BC within Ancient Greek sculpture and artwork, typically shown on warriors and heroes. Artwork and statues of different Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations dating back to the 3rd and 4th century BC also suggest that such hairstyles were common amongst warrior cultures. More modern male depictions occur in the 19th century Ethiopia, where warriors and kings such as Tewodros II and Yohannes IV were depicted wearing cornrows.

The name also refers to either the corn fields or sugar cane fields in the Caribbean. It is most commonly held that this idea originated from Benkos Biohó during his time as a slave in Colombia.


Cornrow hairstyles in Africa also cover a wide social terrain: religion, kinship, status, age, racial diversity, and other attributes of identity can all be expressed in hairstyle. Just as important is the act of braiding, which passes on cultural values between generations, expresses bonds between friends, and establishes the role of professional practitioner.

Cornrows have made a comeback in the United States in the 1960s and 1970s, and returned again during the 1990s and 2000s. In the 2000s, some athletes wore cornrows, including NBA basketball players Allen Iverson, Rasheed Wallace, and Latrell Sprewell. Many female mixed martial artists who have more than jaw-length hair choose to wear cornrows for their fights as it prevents their hair from obscuring their vision as they move.

---

Cornrows - Wiki


Cornrows seen on a statue of the Small Herculaneum woman, ca. 2nd century

So African Americans can hardly claim a hair style which existed for thousands of years. It is just silly.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Cornrows - Wiki


Cornrows seen on a statue of the Small Herculaneum woman, ca. 2nd century

---

side view, large
https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en-US/noartistknown/greek-art-greece-funerary-statue-of-a-woman-carved-in-marble-bust/nomedium/asset/562671
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Aspasia of Miletus




Bust of Aspasia, identified through an inscription. Marble, Roman copy after an Hellenistic original. From Torre della Chiarrucia (Castrum Novum) near Civitavecchia.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Maybe Scandinavian people should start to gate keep some old hairstyles too, like this style on a Viking shield maiden from Denmark



Figurine from Hårby, Denmark, 9th century
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Talking about Cornrows I found a post by our own Brandon (hope it is Ok that I post it here) about an ancient Greek statue with cornrows



Twitter
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://ancientimes.blogspot.com/2020/05/girl-playing-astragaloi-knucklebones.html#:~:text=This%20Hellenistic%20sculpture%20is%20one,astragales%20)%20with%20her%20right%20hand.

Girl playing astragaloi (knucklebones), from Caelian Hill in Rome, 150 CE

one of six Roman copies with a similar theme. All versions depict a female sitting on the floor with her legs drawn up, supporting herself with her left hand and just throwing two knuckles ( astragales ) with her right hand.
An Ancient Greek divination game from around 2,300 years ago, known as ‘astragaloi’ (meaning ‘ankles’) and made from bones
Either five astragaloi (plural) were rolled at once or, otherwise, one astragalos (single) was rolled five consecutive times in order to obtain an oracle.

The gaming pieces were comprised of ankle or hock bones (hence the name of the game) from animals such as goats or sheep although imitations have previously been found in bronze or wood.

Discovered bones have inscriptions of ancient Greek gods


 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://www.lookphotos.com/en/images/71369106-Angola-western-part-of-the-province-of-Cunene-young-man-from-the-Mucohona-ethnic-group-with-mohawk-hairstyle
Angola; western part of the province of Cunene; young man from the
Mucohona (Mucawana) ethnic group
_____________________________

https://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-photo-himba-male-epupa-namibia-august-unidentified-man-standing-tourists-visit-settlement-august-namibia-image33709005
Himba man, Namibia


wait a minute, who appropriated what?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
appropriation is a trigger warning for potential genocide.

---

you seem to be in agreement with Archeopteryx

I disagree. I think it's the opposite. It shows cultures intermixing
White people doing rap music, black people singing opera, it's all good

It's racial separatists, black and white who are dangerous who are against all this

Anti-miscegenation laws in America and similar law in Nazi Germany are the types discouraging "race mixing" and culture is a part of that

I think some things many people call "cultural appropriation" are good signs of interaction between culture

I think it's bad when
- done to mock
OR
- make a false claim that someone else's culture actually belongs to yours, that they are imposters

and bad when racial separatists try to tell people
to stick to their own
That doesn't work in the modern interconnected world

---

Cultural exchange is cultural exchange. Appropriation is appropriation. White people rapping is not appropriation.

If you believe I'm in agreement with that poster then you aren't paying attention. That poster is barely in agreement with herself.

Sticking to your own is fine, people shouldn't be crucified for wanting to be exclusive. & Also being progressive doesn't necessarily lead to progression. I'm not taking up a moral argument in this thread.

My point was very simple. Taking cultural practices from another group and insinuating that it has always been apart of your own group to justify not paying homage OR to sidestep it's cultural significance is a problem.

Have you heard variations of the phrase: Everybody wan't to be [you] but nobody likes when [you're] around." "People can like what [you] do do but not like [you]"

If such statements are in consensus with the greater social sphere, then by all means, we can eliminate [you].

Logically, judging by some of what you say you think is bad, you are in agreement with me.

@Askia
See how predictable people like that poster is. Pay attention, it's no longer about hypocrisy lol. Caught pants down with the attempt to call the fro-hawk appropriation (which he/she might have has a point if they didn't contradict themselves about "similar practices") and now we're back to claiming cornrows were deeply embedded into European culture. Look at how pathetic it is ...


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Nina Simone with her daughter, 1970





I've seen various online articles saying that Cecily Tyson wore cornrows in a 1962 TV episode of EastSide/Westside
The series aired for one season (1963–1964), and was shown Monday nights on CBS.
but I think that's incorrect.


This is what she did on East Side/West Side in 1963. It was her idea to cut her hair and go natural. Black women were not doing this on TV at the time.
Her cornrows came later > as we see, 1972 but Nina Simone had done it before her in 1970 (maybe before also?)
You might have to go back to the colonial era to find black women in America doing cornrows before 1970 (or maybe a few in the late 60s- I'm not sure
if there is a photo to prove it)
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
This girl wore "cornrows" hundreds of years before there even were any African Americans. Just arrogance that some African Americans suddenly claim that hairstyle as their own.


 

---

Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 
@Elmaestro

Yea I stopped engaging it. lol.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
@Elmaestro

Yea I stopped engaging it. lol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

https://blackvikingbrewing.com

---

Wonder if any Scandinavian Americans reacted on this ?
_________________________

Sometimes one must just Facepalm:



Mr Imhotep - Facebook
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
For those who are interested in the anthro side of things. Samson was already mentioned in the Snappy Dragon quote. Another one I can think of rn is Hindu deity Rudra.

त्र्यम्बकं यजामहे tryambakaṃ yajāmahe   We worship the three eyed one RV 7.59.12
कपर्दिने kapardine Who has matted hair RV 1.114.1
हिरण्यम् इव रोचते   hiraṇyam iva rocate Who shines like gold RV 1.43.5
शुक्र इव सूर्यो śukra iva sūryo Who shines like [the] Sun RV 1.43.5
स्थीरेभिरंगै sthīrebhiraṃgai Who is with firm limbs RV 2.33.9
पुरुरुप pururupa Who has multiforms RV 2.33.9
यजतं विश्वरुपम् yajataṃ viśvarupam   Who is of the form of the universe   RV 2.33.10
येभिः शिवः yebhiḥ śivaḥ Who is auspicious RV 10.92.9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudra

Nice artwork (makes me want to pick up my pencil again):

https://www.reddit.com/r/hinduism/comments/1166cx3/asau_devam_rudra_by_me_happy_mahashivratri/
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
Bumping this because there is one thing bugging me about ancient North African hairstyles.

If wavier hair textures are supposedly the indigenous North African hair texture, what's with all the ancient depictions of Egyptians, Libyans, and Numidians with what appear to be tight braids or dreadlocks? Aren't those the hairstyles supposed to be damaging to non-4C hair? Even allowing that many of the Egyptian self-representations show the subjects wearing wigs, I have a hard time believing they were importing all those braided or dreadlocked wigs from sub-Saharan sources.



 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Two videos about the the Indian connection regarding dreadlocs. In the first a young woman tells about locs in a Hindu context.

The other one talks about how Indian and Black culture met on Jamaica. Perhaps the Rastafaris got inspired by Hindus.

Dreadlocks Originated In India: The Spiritual Significance Of Shiva Jattas

The Untold History of Dreadlocks - The Connection of Rastas and Hindus
 

---

Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
This girl wore "cornrows" hundreds of years before there even were any African Americans. Just arrogance that some African Americans suddenly claim that hairstyle as their own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TyDaniels
...trying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ty Daniels:
These are NOT EVEN CORNROWS, SMH!!!!

You don't even know the difference, but are tying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.

How ARROGANT!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TyDaniels
...trying to "School" Black Folks, about OUR HAIRSTYLES.

---

No one owns a hair style so it is not your hairstyles. To try to police other peoples about what hairstyle to wear is arrogant.

It is always hard to interpret ancient statuary. We do not exactly know how these hairstyles looked like in real life. Unfortunately we have no authentic hair preserved from that context. But that does not really matter. African Americans still have no patent on dreadlocs or corn rows. It is up to everyone to wear whatever hairstyle he or she wants.

Similar hairstyles existed in different cultures before African Americans even existed.

---

NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, THOSE ARE NOT CORNROWS.

You FAIL!!!!!!

I've had Cornrows for over 10 Years, I have "4C" hair to accommodate ACTUAL CORNROWS.

I know, and anyone capable of getting REAL CORNROWS, knows those aren't Cornrows.

But instead of falling back, because you are CLUELESS, you DOUBLE DOWN.

Arrogance, Narcissism, FAILURE!!!!!
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
So what, you still do not own that hairstyle.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
About stealing and rebranding: Mohawk is a name of a Native American people, to call a hairstyle a "Frohawk" is nothing other then rebranding. Were there ever a people called Frohawks"?


 

---

Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 
CORNROWS ARE AN AFRICAN HAIRSTYLE

DEAL WITH IT!!!!

You're always on here trying to Race Bait, Black Folks, GET A FKN LIFE!
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Are you an African? Many African Americans have never sat their foot in Africa so they can not automatically claim African ideas, just as I can not automatically claim Spanish or Greek cultural traditions just because I am an European.
 

---

Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
About stealing and rebranding: Mohawk is a name of a Native American people, to call a hairstyle a "Frohawk" is nothing other then rebranding. Were there ever a people called Frohawks"?

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Are you an African? Many African Americans have never sat their foot in Africa so they can not automatically claim African ideas, just as I can not automatically claim Spanish or Greek cultural traditions just because I am an European.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
That is the most sorry a** excuse I often hear: "White people did it first", or "white people did it worse". That is no excuse, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. Not blame others because they also did it.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Not all whites wear dreadlocs either. Many whites think it is rather silly if a blond guy runs around with dreadlocs, at least if he has no religious reasons to do so.

I do not live there so my ancestors did not take any part in the genocide in USA.

But some Black people actually did, some Buffalo soldiers helped the whites to remove Native Americans from their land.

About hair, black people wear "white" wigs or bleach their hair or straighten it, and some also wear Native American hairstyle (or at least the names of them) so Black people also borrow from other cultures. So they have no cause scolding other people for borrowing hairstyles.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
So what do you call that hairstyle? If you are a hair expert so tell the proper name. Then I know it in the future.

I do not exert any "passive aggressive racism", it is just you who seem a bit paranoid.

And you posts do not get better because you write in versals.

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WHY IN THE FKN WORLD WOULD I TELL YOU THE ACTUAL NAME OF THE HAIRSTYLE, YOU LIED AND CLAIMED WERE "CORNROWS"??????

You only posted it to try and "Prove" a point and "School" Black Folks.

I WILL NEVER GIVE YOU AMMUNITION, JUST SO YOU COULD PULL THE TRIGGER!

Stop Concern Trolling Black Folk!
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
So if you still are at it maybe you can go to Wikipedia and correct the image there since they obviously also got it wrong.



Cornrows - Wikipedia
 

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Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
So if you still are at it maybe you can go to Wikipedia and correct the image there since they obviously also got it wrong.

Cornrows- Wikipedia

Herculaneum woman, ca. 2nd century

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
I did not write that article or put that pic there. But since it is wrong according to you you could maybe go there and correct it, and put the right name to the picture, since you are the expert.

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Originally posted by Ty Daniels:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
I did not write that article or put that pic there. But since it is wrong according to you you could maybe go there and correct it, and put the right name to the picture, since you are the expert.

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YES I am EXPERT ON CORNROWS, I HAD THEM FOR OVER 10 YEARS OF MY LIFE.

Getting them Redone Every Two Weeks, in Different Styles OVER A FKN DECADE, Makes ME AN EXPERT.

THE CLUELESS AZZ PEOPLE ON WIKIPEDIA SURE THE HELL AREN'T!

And NO your Toddler "Reverse Psychology", WILL NOT WORK.

If you want to find out the name of the hair style YOU LIED ABOUT....


FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF!!!!

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
I just went by articles I read on the net. I do not have that kind of hair so I am no expert. Seems that the name are used by some for similar hairstyles.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
So hurry to Wikipedia and set them straight since they are obviously lying

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Similar hairstyles have actually existed even if you do not call them cornrows, obviously some other people call them cornrows. Why should I trust you? So give me the proper name of those locs so I know that you are an expert.

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"wHy ShOuLd I tRuSt YoU???

LMAO!!!!!!

After all that "Chest Thumping" you were doing when you "Thought" you we're "Schooling" Somebody, now THIS LAME SHYT!!!

LMAO!!!!!


NAW, You WILL FIGURE IT OUT ON YOUR OWN!

YOU WERE WRONG, DEAL WITH IT!

That Ego of yours is something else.

SMH!
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
One more example were this ancient hairstyle is called cornrows



Then many on the net are also wrong, while you some anonymous guy claim to be right.
 

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Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 
OH LOOK A MOTORCYCLE, see it ALSO HAS WHEELS! LMAO!!!!


 

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Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
One more example were this ancient hairstyle is called cornrows



Then many on the net are also wrong, while you some anonymous guy claim to be right.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
So everyone is wrong but not you? Talking about Ego.

Since other people call them cornrows then so will I, regardless of your whining. You have not yet given that hairstyle another name. And I see more people on the net calling them cornrows. So obviously the word have a wider definition than you think.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
I do not know anything about you so why should I trust what you say. Seems you just want to give the name exclusivity only to black people. But words change and now many also call the old Greek hairstyle for cornrows and there is nothing you can do about it.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
A French braid that is done close to the scalp, even if it’s very thick, can be considered a cornrow. The defining factor is the braiding is done against the scalp (but the remainders might hang down)
However smaller tighter braids close to the scalp might result in a more dotted look, like corn kernels

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Depictions of women with cornrows have been found in Stone Age paintings in the Tassili Plateau of the Sahara, and have been dated as far back as 3000 B.C. As well as the cornrow style is seen in depictions of ancient Cushitic people of the horn of Africa wearing this style of braids as far back as 2000 B.C. The traditional hairstyle of Roman Vestal Virgins incorporated cornrows.

The tradition of female hairstyling in cornrows has remained popular throughout Africa, particularly in the Horn of Africa and West Africa and the rest of Africa as a whole. Historically, male hairstyling with cornrows can be traced as far back as the early 5th century BC within Ancient Greek sculpture and artwork, typically shown on warriors and heroes. Artwork and statues of different Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations dating back to the 3rd and 4th century BC also suggest that such hairstyles were common amongst warrior cultures. More modern male depictions occur in the 19th century Ethiopia, where warriors and kings such as Tewodros II and Yohannes IV were depicted wearing cornrows.

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Cornrows seem to be the oldest hairstyle of humanity. Indeed, the Venus of Brassempouy and the Venus of Willendorf are two statuettes dating from approximately 22,000 years B.C ; both represent a woman with braided hair. When we observe prehistoric art and in particular female statuettes called “Venus” dating from the Gravettian period (between 29,000 and 22,000 before present) and discoveries in Europe, we are struck by their similarities to Africa. Today, most prehistorians have come down on the side of the theory that these figures have braided coarse hair, although some continue to propagate the qualifier “lady in the hood” to name this kind of portrait of Gravettian era. All Venus figures with hair have coarse hair.

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written by DORIA ADOUKÈ
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
What would you call this hair style? One can see similar looking styles still today.




 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ty Daniels:

It was a passive aggressive, response to claims of "Cultural Appropriation", that some Black Folks have RIGHTFULLY Made.

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
So if you still are at it maybe you can go to Wikipedia and correct the image there since they obviously also got it wrong.



Cornrows - Wikipedia

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To me, the Roman women with wear cornrows braids appear to have been inspired by Egyptian hair fashion. Because traditional Roman women's hairstyles are very plain, and later in imperial Rome, due to interaction with the Near East and North Africa, there was influence from there on hair fashion and trends. Consider how women's hairstyles evolved significantly in Roman sources, from simpler early styles to more elaborate and intricate designs during the Roman Imperial Period.

Here typical Roman hair fashion for women:





 

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Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
Bumping this because there is one thing bugging me about ancient North African hairstyles.

If wavier hair textures are supposedly the indigenous North African hair texture, what's with all the ancient depictions of Egyptians, Libyans, and Numidians with what appear to be tight braids or dreadlocks? Aren't those the hairstyles supposed to be damaging to non-4C hair? Even allowing that many of the Egyptian self-representations show the subjects wearing wigs, I have a hard time believing they were importing all those braided or dreadlocked wigs from sub-Saharan sources.

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We don't know how "tight" they are even braided. But more importantly those people rocking those hairstyles could've had hair similar to modern day Horn of Africans who also braided their hair but not as tightly as other SSA especially West Africans. Still less damaging to a person with type 1 or 2 hair...
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Greek Kouros statues, with clear Egyptian influence (see statue below), have braided hair. We cannot assume that hairstyles next door to Africa in the Mediterranean are automatically independent of African influence, just because they're not within the confines of the African continent.


Ebony statue of Meryrahashtef, 6th Dynasty (c. 2345-2181 B.C.)

Not trying to argue African or Euro origin for such hairstyles in Greece or Rome (I don't know much about hairstyles common in Indo-European cultures). But I just thought that speaks for itself. The mere fact of finding a hairstyle somewhere, doesn't mean it originated there independent of foreign influences.
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Greek Kouros statues, with clear Egyptian influence (see statue below), have braided hair. We cannot assume that hairstyles next door to Africa in the Mediterranean are automatically independent of African influence, just because they're not within the confines of the African continent.

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I just noticed that too while looking up those kouros sculptures. Those make me more convinced that ancient Greek braided hairstyles have African connections.

Also, Cleopatra VII's most famous bust shows her with that very same style of braiding. I feel that, had the Netflix documentary shown her wearing that hairstyle instead of the big fluffy Afro they went with, it would have been a welcome nod to the actual historical record that was also consistent with how they wanted to represent her.

In fact, in between her choice of hairstyles, how she preferred to represent herself as Egyptian according to Sally Ann-Ashton's research, and how she was the first Ptolemy to even learn the indigenous Egyptian language, I wouldn't put even a "White" Cleopatra above some blackfishing. That's entirely speculative on my part, mind you, and I don't plan to draw her doing that due to the trend's modern baggage, but back then her motive would have been identifying herself with her indigenous subjects rather than the more nefarious ones of blackfishers today.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^I've heard of hatfishing, catfishing, Kanye being a gay fish. Never heard of blackfishing. Had to look it up.

I seem to remember a quote from an ancient Greek author saying braided hair was a sign of slaves in Greek society, while it had positive connotations in Egypt. Not sure how that would fit in this discussion, but probably shows it wasn't common or popular among Greeks (broadly speaking), in the time of that author. Taken together with the hairstyles on the Kouros statues, it possibly shows a general lack of popularity of such hairstyles outside of some isolated trends influenced by Egyptians and possibly others.
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
I seem to remember a quote from an ancient Greek author saying braided hair was a sign of slaves in Greek society, while it had positive connotations in Egypt. Not sure how that would fit in this discussion, but probably shows it wasn't common or popular among Greeks (broadly speaking), in the time of that author. Taken together with the hairstyles on the Kouros statues, it possibly shows a general lack of popularity of such hairstyles outside of some isolated trends influenced by Egyptians and possibly others.

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Originally posted by Swenet:
^Her sister Arsinoe, whose partial Egyptian ancestry is now thought to be more or less confirmed by the looks of her skeletal remains, could also have influenced Cleopatra in this regard (Arsinoe could have been in touch with her Egyptian side, to some degree, due to her Egyptian mother).

EDIT:
On looking up the skeletal remains in question, the identification with Arsinoe is more uncertain than I thought, but the hint of partial African ancestry still stands, according to Wilkinson.

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