Enter Egyptology - The only culture with a 'science' named for its study

The thesis that Black African history is myth making, "feel good" Black history, has long been a tenet of European racism & romanticism. This racist/romantic ideology resulted in the creation of the pseudo-scientific discipline of "Egyptology," whose basic function has been to invent and to perpetuate the nonsensical notion that 'the ancient Egyptians were a white race with black skin and woolly hair.(sic!)' It's 18th century romanticism (i.e., Tarzan, She, King Solomon's Mines, ad nauseam) posing as science. It has also become like the bully who steals something from you (your history), and then has the nerve to be upset when you take it back.
J. Olumide Lucas, in his book "The Religion of the Yorubas," gave scientific evidence of the Egyptian origin of the Yoruba people. He too was accused of trying to "invent" a glorious past. One of the scientific instruments Lucas used was comparative linguistics. For example, one can use linguistics to establish the fact that the Anglo-Saxons of England came originally from Germany. This is science. When used in Africa, to trace origins, if it ends up back in Ancient Egypt (as it invariably does), it's myth making!
White racists/romanticists will never accept the reality of a Black Egypt. To admit that Blacks created civilization is to destroy any notion of White racial superiority. That is how they think. It's a hangup.
For information on the Ancient Egyptians own view of race, and where they were in the ethnic universe please refer to: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo

 

I agree with you Aaliyah that modern and ancient Egyptians ecopnpass various ranges of phenytypes and ethnicities. Yes,Americans are obcessed over the question of the race of the ancient Egyptians.

The Egyptians[Kemetians] were a mixed race people,but understand it was the people in Upper Egypt that founded the civlization. It is true that people in the Delta[Lower Egypt] since antiquity were more of a mixture than was the people in the South. Costal Northern African types in the Delta;while more tropical African types dominated in Southern Egypt. Later large influxes of Asiatics like Caanites started to flood the region of Upper Egypt,as did Libyans[Berbers] into the Delta as mercenaries. Each of these people added to the mix of the existing Egyptian population.

Misegenation in Egypt has occured since the Ptolmeic dyansty,because there are referenences to Greeks in some provinces taking Egyptin wives and husbands. This pratice was banned in Naucratis,a Greek city that was located in the mouth of the Nile. Notice that Greeks only built one city in Upper Egypt,but also settled in various regions of Middle Egypt.

I think the obcession with the race of the ancient Egyhptians stems from years of Euro-centric and white supremist Egyptology circles. People like Sir Grafton Smith believed that the Egyptians started off as ''white'',but mixed with their imaginary black slaves;thus the dark skin of many modern inhabitants of modern Egypt. This is not true,because the negriod element in Egypt has always been there from pre-dyanstic times amung the Badarian,Naquda not from later imaginary slave trades which the Egyptians never had. The Egyptians used other Egyptians for manual labor not some imaginary slaves. Unfortunatley,amny anthropologist did this not just with Egypt bu with every civlization.

for example, giza and min-nefer are in lower egypt, but not in the delta.
 

Kem-mau,you are correct in what you state about Lower Egypt. The division of Lower and Upper Egypt probally did not exist in ancient Kemetian times since the unification of Narmer considered the two to be equally part of Egypt. We do observe though that dialect differences and cultural differences did exist between the two regions and this is made clear in the Middle Kingdom text of ''Tales of Sinhue'' that states ''when a Delta man finds himself in Elephantine,he is confused. Can a papyrus cleave to a rock?''

The divisions of Egypt were as follows:Lower Egypt was divided into every region from Giza to the Delta. Men-nefer,named so after Pepi's shrine,was also called the sma-tawy,Ineb-hedj or 'White Wall' and Ankh-Tawy - 'That which binds the Two Lands'was the border between Upper and Lower Kmt.

Every thing South of Men-nefer is considered Upper Egypt. Middle Egypt extends from El Minya to Abydos where you finally get to Asyut.
 

A comparison, I am white skinned, and my Y chromosomes will lead to a German Stock. So that makes me "White Folk" of European decent, which makes me a European Caucasoin (Although this is not really correct).

Greeks are classed as White, European, Caucasion. Therefore since they are from the same Continent, the same colour and classed in the same racial category (Caucasion) then I therefore am one and the same as the great Civilisation of Greece. The same could be said of Rome, or any other culture that arose out of Europe.

Tripe!!!!. Many of my forefathers were transported to a country against their will and treated with contempt and cruelty not for the colour of their skin, but for the colour of their money (The poor, jailed for steeling a loaf of bread) some, were eventually given their freedom. Any Australian from such stock will tell you they are far from being a “European Australian”, they are simply Australian, and proud of it regardless of the circumstances of use being there. None! Despite their family genealogy leading to Europe will claim to be connected directly to any great civilisation of Europe, simply because of the colour of their skin or the racial category they are unfairly classed into.

Africa has a much more diver’s population than the rest of the world, and indeed Europe. So why then, do so many people around the world with similar coloured skin strive to connect themselves with the civilisation of Egypt? The Egyptians and the genetically related Nubians are closer related, (because they are the fathers of the peopling world), to some Europeans and Asians than they are to the other diverse African populations. But despite the rest of the world being closer related to North-eastern Africans than the North-eastern Africans are to the rest of Africa, all peoples of the same colour would call them brother, and one and the same, this is simply from the colour of skin!

Egyptians were Egyptians, and unless your forefathers were born in Egypt you are not one and the same. No more than I can claim to be related to the Greeks or Romans, because my forefather’s line came from an area which had cultural and ethnic trade, and had the same colour skin.

Ohh and I am reasonably sure that you are correct that most white people go into Anthropology and Egyptology to purposely divert the truth. I think they teach us at school how to manipulate history. We are in the 21ST Century man, not the 19th were most of what is Quoted is from. No one considers those people as leaders of their fields anymore.

Ausar, is Egyptian, He has a right to claim his country you dont.

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 05 October 2003).]
 

I am refering to the Pre-dyanstic era all the way to today. It is well known that the further you go down the Nile from the Delta the more African the people appear.

I also reffered to msiegenation that occured in regions of Middle Egypt during the Ptolmeic period where many Greeks and Egyptian intermarried. This is true because there are drawn contacts showing that many of these paring produced offspring.

The population in ancient Kmt up to the 1860's was only about 2 to 3 million people in both Lower and Upper Egypt. Later, up to the modern period there was a large explosion of birth rates that were mainly in Lower Egypt. We also have various rual peasents that moved from Upper Egypt into the cities that live in isolated urban landscapes around Bulaq,and even in some parts of Alexzandria.

In my post I also pointed out that dialectal difference amung the Egyptian population from the Delta to Upper Egypt that probally existed as far back as the Middle Kingdom;thus the reason why I quoted from the Tales og Sinuehue,a text written around the time of the 12th dyansty. Even linguist will agree that Saidi Arabic and Sahidic Coptic differ from Boharic,and Arabic spoken in the Northern regions of Egypt.
It is well known is historical texts such as the Instructions of Meri-ka-re that Asiatics,Libyans,and other immigrants began moving into these territories around the First Intermediate Period. References to Libyans illegal immigrants into these regions are so abundant they built fortifications to keep them out. By the Saite Dyansty the Delta was overwhelmed by a Libyan pressence.

In Reguard to modern Anthropology,Egyptology,and other disciplines,I feel there is still much they should make up for in the past. The reputations of various people like George Resiner,Breasted,Grafton-Smith,and others are put a dent into mainstream Egyptology when it comes to being objective. I still know Egyptologist who try to say that early Egyptians were blonde haired or red haired or give the impression that these physical types were predominant in the Nile Valley. The case with Joanne Fletcher who made these claims even thought she is not an Anthropologist or any type of sepcialist in this field.

I don't purposely believe that many are in these fields to lie about their findings. In some area prehaps there is still a need to do this,but most seem to be objective. I have alot of respect for Anthropologist like Larry Angel who was one of the people who trained Shomarka Keita. He is well established and respected in peer-reviwed journals. Still others like Cavalli Sfoza cling tightly to data that I don't always agree with. Sfoza does support though that much of the Sahara was ''black'' during the Nelothic periods with some caucasoid types in the Northern fringes.

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ozzy, i think your message was alot more personal than it needed to be. to say that some kemites are genetically closer to some europeans and asians than they are to other to some other africans may be true because people move around. but i don't why that should stop other africans with identifying with kemet. kemites were african, and not very different from other africans in that region in culture, language and probably appearance. there are numerous links for more info in the last couple of topics. if anyone wants to prove otherwise, they'd better work the genetics angle because it's about all they have left.

kemet was an african civilization, that shared much in common with other african civilizations. it was founded by tropical africans who were not originally from the nile valley, and also founded other civilizations in africa.

today, one goal of egyptology seems to have been to separate kemet from the rest of africa. this is not just a 19th century thing. hawass is alive and well today. only africans and their descendants will put kemet back where it belongs. in africa. i think the middle eastern classification of kemites is hurting our understanding of them.

also kemites moved around africa and founded other civilazations after the multiple invasions from the north east. some of these civilizations are still around today, that is if you buy gadalla's theories.

just because someone is from egypt today, or even the past thousand years, does not make them a kemite decendant.

lastly, why does it matter where someone is from? just because someone isn't from egypt shouldn't mean that they can't identify with kemites. i'm sick of people telling africans that they can't identify with kemites, when they too were african. and who's to tell a non african that they can't identify with kemet. i highly doubt many people today are going to listen to someone who tells them they can't call kemites brother. and i don't think they should. no one looks at an englishman funny for indentfying with greeks and romans.
 

A comparison, I am white skinned, and my Y chromosomes will lead to a German Stock. So that makes me "White Folk" of European decent, which makes me a European Caucasoin (Although this is not really correct).

Ozzy, I think the comparisons you have used are NOT parallel at all. First of all, things are very different in America. I have taken western Civilization in college and stood in awe as my Irish professor talk so proudly of Greece and Rome as if his direct ancestry is from that region. When other Africans have more genetically in common with Greeks than Anglo-Saxons. However, that did not stop him from standing proudly every single day as he lectured on the greatness of Rome. The thing about Rome (past and present) is that it too like Egypt, is a very genetically mixed region of the earth due to the constant flow of genes between Africans and southern Europeans. Even though some of them look "mulatto"/ Hispanic, blacks do not claim them as black even though commonsense tells us that there has to be some mixture of African black to have certain characteristics! On the other hand when it comes to Egypt they are all called "white" or non-black even when the overall ancient phenotype had an overwhelming "Negro/black" element. That would be equivalent to calling some ancient and present day Italians and Greeks black even though they are overall phenotypically "white" with occasional Negro/black elements. It all comes down to perception and what the present group with power feels about the situation. I just read an article about the strong "Negro" genes in Spain and Sicily but I will not call these people black. When I get a chance I will post the link. Thus why is it so heresy when blacks claim that they have something in common with Egyptian hence can identify with them as brothers? Are you outraged when they use "white" pale-skinned Northern Europeans to play roles of Egyptians? Europeans whites have obviously tried and continue to try identity them self with Ancient Egyptians! Don't you think this is an outrage when most ancient Egyptians obviously had dark/brown/black skin? Who seems to be the more unrealistic group? Should African claim that Ancient and present day Greeks and Italian/Sicilians are black because of the small Negro elements present in those countries? Where do we draw the line? Black people weren't the ones to claim superiority over all other groups! Have you ever been in a class where the professor thinks and implies, "he is doing well for a Negro!" Have a professor ever talked to you as if you were stupid, but then realizes that you have a 3.6 GPA in medical school, are doing research in immunology and are ranked in the top 10% of the class respond to you in awe? I bet not! My point is that racial stereotyping is alive and well and this stemmed from hundreds of years ago and will take time to change! If it is this evident in today's academia how do you think it was 140 years ago when Egyptology was being founded? Obviously I am not claiming all white Americans especially in academia are guilty of stereotyping, but it is still present after all these years! Do you even realize that when Egyptians are compared to Caucasian/white, they are not comparing them to Anglo-Saxons, but when they are compared to blacks/Negro, they are compared to the most extreme western African groups? How much in common do you think someone from Kenya and Ethiopia have in common with Ancient Egyptians compared to an Anglo-Saxon and an ancient Egyptian?

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

There's only so much one can argue about this topic. Race is a very sensitive topic with many people and in America race is more important than ethinic identity. This leads to confusion in the US for the "mixed" ethnicities like Latinos and Arabs. Psychologically, no one wants to be identified as "black." I have even met East Africans who prefer to identify themselves as Arabs rather than black. It's no wonder it's so difficult for historians to accept anceint Egypt as a black African civilization. Even if 100% of Egyptologists accepted this belief as fact they would most likely offened many modern-day Egyptians who attach a negative stigma to the word "black" and see dark skin as a negative trait.

I don't think there should be any reason why black Americans shouldn't identify with ancient Egypt, afterall, West Africans descend from the people who roamed the Sahara for thousands of decades ago too. However distant West Africans and Egyptians may be, they are still all Africans and African Americans should have pride in ancient Egypt as an African civilization but not so much a black civilization because on the whole, Egypt was never all blacks.
 

Yes it was a little personal, and I make no apologies for that, This guy makes unsupported statements referring to “white folks” not only in his posts but on the site he is advertising here. He makes generalizations about white “caucasion” people which unfortunately places me in the same box. I take offence as you would by someone posting saying all “Black” people are ? whatever. If he has a beef about a particular group or a person, or even research then direct it to them. Don’t use a bullshit blanket statement backed by nothing but personal agenders.

I see however that there have been a number of reactions to people who have posted negetive “Black” statements but little who have similar white statements to the one above, and on his site. It does not make you guys very objective.

Now did I say that Egyptians were not African?, man this is tyring, I said that North-Eastern Africans were closer related to Europeans, not because of migration of Europeans back to Africa but because the Europeans and Asians are the children of the North-Eastern Africans who migrated out. Not the other way round. But as soon as anyone mentions any connection with Europe or Asia you guys turn so quick you miss the message and assume it is another attempt to connect Europe or Asia with the civilization of Egypt and hence separate it from the rest of Africa.

And my post had nothing to do with what I believe about the Ancient Egyptians.

Kem: said “today, one goal of egyptology seems to have been to separate kemet from the rest of africa. this is not just a 19th century thing. hawass is alive and well today. only africans and their descendants will put kemet back where it belongs. in africa. i think the middle eastern classification of kemites is hurting our understanding of them”.

I have read much of what has been suggested to me by all you guys and I have to say that the Eurocentric crap that used to be around is long gone, only kept alive by the people who consistently quote from these outdated, unsupported, Hundred year old views. Many of the ones quoting them are the authors you have suggested .Few main stream Egyptologist or Anthropologists agree with the likes of George Resiner,Breasted,Grafton-Smith. They even use these guys mistakes as examples in the education of the new generation of Egyptologists, not as examples of good Egyptology. There is some die hards out there and I agree that they do some damage to Egyptology, but they will always exist just as extreme Afrocanist still exist and support whole heartedly the views of some Africansist who also are damaging those areas of science. I don’t see anyone complaining about there damaging contribution.

I am sick of hearing how the goal of main stream Egyptology (White Europeans) is to separate Egypt from the rest of Africa. Its unfounded generalization based on outdated unsupported 19th century Egyptologist and a few media seeking fools. And even the current Egyptologists, who you quote as damaging Egyptology today, like Joanne Fletcher. You have no hesitation in supporting when they support your views or agenda. Re: Nefertiti Reconstruction, Quote Ausar:”At least this time she got something right”. A comment made simply because she displayed a black image. Not because of research, not because of her proving it was Nefertiti, not because of any contribution to Egypt, but simply because she showed a black person. The agenda is clear, and not objective.

For people who complain about the damage done by one eyed Eurocentric Egyptology should as another member said to me “examine their biases”

Kem: Said. just because someone is from egypt today, or even the past thousand years, does not make them a kemite decendant.
O
f Ancient Egypt decent of cause not, but they are still Egyptians. But I’m not sure of your point here.

Kem; said “lastly, why does it matter where someone is from? just because someone isn't from egypt shouldn't mean that they can't identify with kemites. i'm sick of people telling africans that they can't identify with kemites, when they too were african. and who's to tell a non african that they can't identify with kemet. i highly doubt many people today are going to listen to someone who tells them they can't call kemites brother. and i don't think they should. no one looks at an englishman funny for indentfying with greeks and romans”.

I have never meet an Englishman that identifies with Greeks or Romans because they are white like them (WHICH IS DEBATABLE ANYWAY) or because he comes from the same continent, that’s ridicules. Only when there is a family history connection.
My problem is as I said that how can anyone say they are “one and the same” just because they have the same skin color.

I said that Africans are the most genetically diverse people on the planet, they have as much genetic diversity in a tribe than some Europeans have between peoples thousands of miles away.

I also said that (and this is what again is being misinterpreted) the rest of the world are the “descendants” of North-eastern “Africans” and some of the these two areas share a genetic make up “closer” to each other than the North-eastern Africans with the many other African peoples.

If these North-eastern Africans, possibly the closest relations to Egyptians are closer related to a European (Again only because the European is of their decent) Then how can one deny any person on the planet an association with Egypt as much as any African or African decendant. To do so would be to separate on the basis of the color of skin. This is just what this guy above is doing. Read my post again and read his post and his site.

I have no problem with anyone having an “affinity” with Egypt, as many of all nationalities do. But to say that all Africans, and of African decent are closer related and therefore can identify with Egypt because they are all “black”, is racist and absolute crap. When, others of different color could easily if wished, show a closer relationship. Its identification based on skin color nothing else.

I know of no one who, simply because of their European heritage and color of skin, claim a relationship with any great civilization of Europe. In fact I have found the complete opposite where, the likes of Albania and Greece, who are from the same stock. No Albanian would dare claim to be of the ancient Greek civilization. No Sicilian, would claim to be anything else but Sicilian, no Turk would claim to be anything else but a Turk.

And I have asked every African I know here which numbers twelve, what they believe there relationship with Egypt was and they all have said Egyptians were Egyptians, They agree they were an African people but that’s all they know and all they care.

They have their own countries. They do not consider themselves one and the same, nor do they feel or have a need to indentify with Egypt, they are proud of their own countries, and their own heritage.

This is an American problem, and much of the remaining posts, show that there is a **** load of politics and personal racial issues you guys are dragging into Egyptology from America that simply does not belong there. And I dare say is not even wanted.

And Keno your assumptions are based again on the fact I am not black, it shows your bias. I in fact left school unable to spell, and barely able to read. I was told by a number of teachers, I was to stupid to learn, and the treatment I recieved would be hard to imagine even to some of you. the funny thing is the one person that did try to help me was an migrant from Nigeria. I will not tell you what I have gone on to do but I now live in a country were I am considered an (Extranjero) stranger, and always will be. Not one person spoke to me or sat next to me for two years. I was ignored or yelled at because I spoke little Spanish, and if you don’t speek the language you are considered an idiot. Its not the same as in America and I am not claiming I know what its like to be you, but you are making assumptions about my life based on my color. Your wrong. And until you guys do not apply the same feelings you have about white America on the rest of us your always going to be looking for “white” Eurocentric in us that isn’t there!

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery;
None but yourself can free our minds.
-Bob Marley
If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
Who the 'eck do I think I am.
-Bob Marley

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
My problem is as I said that how can anyone say they are “one and the same” just because they have the same skin color.

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This is a mentality that has existed in the West since the latter part of the Enlightenment. It lives on today in the US but its dying in Europe.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

But to say that all Africans, and of African decent are closer related and therefore can identify with Egypt because they are all “black”, is racist and absolute crap. When, others of different color could easily if wished, show a closer relationship. Its identification based on skin color nothing else.

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I disagree. Many people including myself argue the cultural and lingusitic affinity of ancient Egypt. Unlike most African countries, Egypt isn't racially homogenous, so to argue a racial affinity with any one group is difficult unless you focus on each region of the country individually. The cultural and linguistic affinities with other African peoples hasn't fully been explored and is the only thing worth debating.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

I know of no one who, simply because of their European heritage and color of skin, claim a relationship with any great civilization of Europe.

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I know of many in the US. The mentality of Americans is different. The nationalistic element isn't as dominant. If it was we'd all be killing each other. Where else but Brooklyn NY could Arabs and Jews live amongst each other in peace? If only Americans could deal with our racial differences as well as we deal with our ethnic differences.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

This is an American problem, and much of the remaining posts, show that there is a **** load of politics and personal racial issues you guys are dragging into Egyptology from America that simply does not belong there. And I dare say is not even wanted.

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I agree. There is a lot of baggage with African Americans since our ancestors were brought here by force and were stripped of their ethnic and cultural identities. Italian Americans can look to Rome with pride; WASP Americans can look to the British Isles with pride. African Americans, stripped of our ethnic identities simply take pride in being African. One of the flaws in Afrocentricism is the tendancy to treat the words "African" and "black" like they mean the same thing.

Ozzy, you make good arguments but you tend to get too personal with your rebuttals.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 06 October 2003).]
 

Don't Confuse Me with Facts

People who believe that the racial identity of the Ancient Egyptians is debatable have either not visited my website http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo or are unaware of the existance of the Ancient Egyptian "mural of the races" (They too were, like Americans, "obsessed" with race). This mural, found in the tomb of Rameses III and in other royal tombs, commissioned by the Ancient Egyptian ruling classes, is authentic and explicit. The Ancient Egyptians show us, in P.I.C.T.U.R.E.S. , that they belonged to the Black African racial group. Debate that one...
A confused individual will probably look at these murals with the same non-registering expression as someone, who believes that the earth is flat, looks at pictures of earth from space.
Modern day Egyptians are about as racially mixed as are African-Americans. African-Americans who visit Egypt (sans cameras and tropical shorts) are invariable mistaken for Masri or Egyptians. Debate that one...
 

Keino responds: “I agree with you , but there have also been a constant flow of genes between the North-Eastern Africans and Southern Europeans although most of the mixture is only recently. I understand what you are saying but you seem to be missing my point. From my knowledge, most of the genetic testing supposedly proving that ancient Egyptians were “Caucasian” or should say have more in common with the Caucasian people are very one-sided and biased. Why is it ok to compare Ancient Egyptians with some of the most extreme African groups and when comparing them to Europeans use someone that they obviously had genetic exchange with? How much in common do they have with Northern Europeans and Anglo-Saxons? How much in common do Mediterranean Caucasian have with their Northern counter part? I am not saying they don’t have anything in common but how much? Believe it or not sub-Saharan Africans do have some things in common with Ancient Egyptians. You see Ozzy, they use tropical/sub-Sarah African type as the prototype of blackness or “Negro-ness” ( not to be confused with the lose association with African and Blackness). But use the Mediterranean type as the prototype of Caucasian when comparing then to Ancient Egyptians. This is not a parallel comparison. How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common genetically with Anglo-Saxons and Northern Europeans. If they genetically test me its a good chance that I might have more in common with an Elglish person than some tropical Africal who come close to fitting the "true negro" criteria! Does that classify me as "Caucasian" even thought my overall phenotype is "black"? Do you understand my point?

Scenario: Lets say that two tropical/Sub-Saharan African groups have very differing genes, which is very possible in Africa. Does this difference in genes make one group black and one non-black? One groups moves to the North and intermix with Mediterranean Caucasian. You do genetic testing on them and compare them to Mediterranean and other African groups. How do you think the genetic testing would show?

Ozzy said: “And Keno your assumptions are based again on the fact I am not black, it shows your bias. I in fact left school unable to spell, and barely able to read. I was told by a number of teachers, I was to stupid to learn, and the treatment I recieved would be hard to imagine even to some of you. the funny thing is the one person that did try to help me was an migrant from Nigeria. I will not tell you what I have gone on to do but I now live in a country were I am considered an (Extranjero) stranger, and always will be. Not one person spoke to me or sat next to me for two years. I was ignored or yelled at because I spoke little Spanish, and if you don’t speek the language you are considered an idiot. Its not the same as in America and I am not claiming I know what its like to be you, but you are making assumptions about my life based on my color. Your wrong. And until you guys do not apply the same feelings you have about white America on the rest of us your always going to be looking for “white” Eurocentric in us that isn’t there!”

Keino responds: Why are you taking things so personally? My post had NOTHING to do with the assumption that you are non-black. Indians, Asians and Hispanics are also stereotyped in America although most of the stereotypes are not as damaging as the “Black” ones. I was simply trying to show you the difference with racial issues in America and how racism is still alive today especially when it comes to persons of “Black” African descent ; nothing more, nothing less! Sorry to hear of your ordeal in Spain, but that is irrelevant in the conversation as I see it. Your story does not parallel with the issue we are discussing. African Americans are home in their country and still discriminated against and stereotyped. Maybe I missed the point of that Spain story, what is its purpose? Are you saying that you was like a different “race” in Spain from the local population because you didn‘t speak Spanish? Again I reiterate, I only told you that story to set the tone so that you can see that racial biases and stereotype still exists in America and I am sure they still exists in Europe although not anywhere near as much as they are in the “west”.

I await your response!

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.' Eastern Hamites consist of various Black African peoples such as the Oromo and Beja of Ethiopia and Sudan, and the Somali of Somaliland. When you leave the great Arab cities of the Delta ( IE., Cairo, Alexandria, etc.) and go into the Nile Valley or Egypt Proper, you are in Black Africa, not dark or brown Africa. Egypt is a Black African country which is dominated by an Arab minority. Any real-world reference source will inform you of this fact.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
More Real-World facts:

Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.' Eastern Hamites consist of various Black African peoples such as the Oromo and Beja of Ethiopia and Sudan, and the Somali of Somaliland. When you leave the great Arab cities of the Delta ( IE., Cairo, Alexandria, etc.) and go into the Nile Valley or Egypt Proper, you are in Black Africa, not dark or brown Africa. Egypt is a Black African country which is dominated by an Arab minority. Any real-world reference source will inform you of this fact.

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Wrong! The "realworld" reference source almost alway avoids racial caterogization of Egyptians. I have seen a source the (history channel) that describes the population as, "Ancient egyptians, modern egyptians, sudan migrants and other black migrants". That is not even a category for race but they do it anyway.

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

From the CIA World Factbook:
Ethnic groups: Egypt
Eastern Hamitic stock (Egyptians, Bedouins, and Berbers) 99%, Greek, Nubian, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1% [Note: Bedouins are actually Semitic and Berbers are considered to be Western Hamites]

From Encyclopedia.com:
The Eastern Hamites comprise the ancient and modern Egyptians, the Beja, the Berberines, the Oromo , the Somali, the Danakil, and most Ethiopians. [Note: these are the Egyptologists black, wooly haired Caucasians!]
 

on the plus side of these race topics, i've learned alot about egpyt, past and present. on the negative side, no topics gets more heated and once things get out of hand, they're of interest to no one.

i'm not sure what made you angry, but i doubt anyone here means to say that all white people are have a hidden agenda. but africans around the world, especially in the u.s. and europe, are tired of hearing about our distorted history, or lack there of, and no feel that we must not rely on traditional scolarship to shape african history.

just to give you an idea of how egypt plays into this, if you see a depiction of an ancient egyptian today in the u.s. or europe, they are usually caucasian. this is frustrating because it is simply not an accurate depiction of kemet. i've seen kemites depicted as africans on television once, and that was a michael jackson video. when i see slaves depicted, they are always african, however i've never seen a non european portray a greek or a roman.

this site is about egypt, but keep in mind that many africans are careful not to overstate the importance of egypt in africa's history and overlook other great cultures. you'll find that africans will also call south, west, central, etc, africans "brother" as you like to say, regardless of their genetic relationship.

an african-american, a haitian and a jamacain might call each other brother even if they have no links to each other. and they won't listen to anyone who tells them they can't. but these subjects are too personal and are useless to a site about kemet. if someone wants to call another african, i don't see a problem with that. hell, if you wanted to call an african brother, i wouldn't argue with you.
 

You missed my point. You said, You “bet not”! because you see me as white and how could I have experienced anything like what you have described above because I am not black. (or even if it was not an assumption that I could not have experienced it because I white, it was still an assumption I could not have experienced it) My response was to show you, I have, and many others have. There are many forms of racism, and discrimination. My experiences were not to complain, nor do I have no problem with my past, and I totally accept and understand my treatment here. I am pointing out your assumptions that you “bet not” I could experience such things is based on your knowledge I am white. And as such I could not experience such treatment. I was showing you, your wrong. And I used personal experience to show you this, just as you did with yours examples. So I thought it was an acceptable parallel and relevant.

Kem: Said “this site is about egypt, but keep in mind that many africans are careful not to overstate the importance of egypt in africa's history and overlook other great cultures. you'll find that africans will also call south, west, central, etc, africans "brother" as you like to say, regardless of their genetic relationship.
The word use of “brother” has obviously caused some confusion, I have no problem with anyone calling anyone brother. They call each other variouse family names here when no family connection exists. The word use was to stress a point made in the whole paragraph.

You may also be surprised to find that many Africans from different parts have long considered themselves very separate from each other. Tribes in Africa have a very long history of conflict, the brother thing is an imported identity that is in fact not that common. Shaka Zulu was one of the first to Unite Africans under the same banner, pre-history was much different. I have as I said a number of African friends from different areas of Africa, I have asked them many questions and they tell a different story. It seems as you say it’s the people from the west who are seeking this affinity. The native Western and northern Africans I know do not. I have to add I don’t know anyone from Egypt.

Kem: said “i'm not sure what made you angry, but i doubt anyone here means to say that all white people are have a hidden agenda. but africans around the world, especially in the u.s. and europe, are tired of hearing about our distorted history, or lack there of, and no feel that we must not rely on traditional scolarship to shape african history”.

Keno, said “If they genetically test me its a good chance that I might have more in common with an Elglish person than some tropical Africal who come close to fitting the "true negro" criteria! Does that classify me as "Caucasian" even thought my overall phenotype is "black"? Do you understand my point?

Yes I understand your point, and that is my point exactly, even though genetically you may show this relationship, you will be placed in the “guy above,s” acceptable box because of your appearance, and some one else who does not have your apearence but may have a closer genetic relationship would not, again based on appearance and colour of skin. Unacceptable, and unjust.

If you have read this guys new posts then maybe you may understand my personal offence to what he has to say and the site he is promoting. My comments were initially to him. I have seen posts removed for showing the opposite extreme to the argument, but these are accepted. Why?

And Wally, if the extent of your research is limited to almanacs it explains your narrow views. Your site contains no data backed arguments at all, and your research is non existent.

PS Ausar, have you checked this guys IP logs, you will find he has been here before under other names.

"they use tropical/sub-Sarah African type as the prototype of blackness or “Negro-ness” ( not to be confused with the lose association with African and Blackness). But use the Mediterranean type as the prototype of Caucasian when comparing then to Ancient Egyptians. This is not a parallel comparison. How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common genetically with Anglo-Saxons and Northern Europeans?"

Wally, Why are you taking me saying wrong so personally? Most of the sources I have found usually dances around the race issue of Egyptians. A simple explaination of your findings would have opened the door for discussion, but instead you chose to attack me personally telling me that I should change my name to, "it helps to read". What's up with that? If you think I personally attacked you because I said you were wrong then you have issues.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 07 October 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 07 October 2003).]
 

2) Incorrect usage of nouns
a) Usiri is the Sahidic Coptic Egyptian noun for Osiris, and since the Greeks added an 's' to Egyptian nouns Osiris=Osiri. Isis=Isi (It is Ese in Sahaidic Coptic).
b) Kemmau; Kemmiu is a plural noun-adjective which means "Black folk" (Egyptians). It is not proper to use as a singular name. Kemsa="Black man" (Egyptian man) - would make sense to an Ancient Egyptian.
c) Kemmao = "important Black folk" - just as Rmmao = "important folk" (also found in Sahidic Coptic Egyptian)
The adjective 'Kem' (to be black) is a sacred Egyptian word that, unlike common adjectives, comes before the noun. Common adjectives follow the noun.
Other expressions for 'Egyptians' are:
a) Tawiu = "People of the Two Lands"
b) TaMeriu = "People of the Land of the Inundation"
c) TaMeriu = "People of the Beloved Land" (These two expressions are written the same, but with different expressions, kinda like lead and lead.
3) The origin of 'Africa?'
In Egyptian, the expression Afrika(o) = "Hot country above the Nile valley, IE., the hills. (Afri = "hot steam or vapors" ka;kao = "high, above")
 

Wally,the ancient Kemetians were very xenophobic,but I could not honestly say they were a racist people. Laws in ancient Kmt never forbade Kemetians from marrying foreginers nor belittled foreginers that has assimilated into ancient Kmt. You might find that some Kemetian texts refered to people was ''dreaded'',''wrecthed'',and other comments;however this was not a sign of racism on the Kemetians part. This was just war profaganda that tried to dehumanize their enemies at war. From time to time Nubians and Egyptians fought,but unlike early Egyptologist like Breasted who reasoned this was because of race were wrong.

One example is Senworset III long used by racialist types because one of his stela says no Neshsi say pass. Breasted translated this to mean ''negro'' when it only means Nubian. You notice how words can come under false meanings attached with false racial stigma. Yet we find that Senwroset III's family had Nubian relatives. It would be wrong to assume that Sneowrset III attacked the Nubians or any of his foes because of racism,when the fact remained he had Nubians in his family. The entire 12th dyansty,one of the best in Kmt,was started by a Nubian and a Upper Egyptian father from modern day Aswan.

''Again, the ancient Egyptians practised what they preached, and they did
not discriminate by skin complexion or ethnic origin. As the vizier stated
in a 20th Dynasty case, it matters not, if a man married an Egyptian, a
Nubian, or a Syrian woman, she would enjoy the protection of pharaoh's
law governing marriage, but the man could give her his property if he
so desired.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu''

''The Ancient Egyptians show us, in P.I.C.T.U.R.E.S. , that they belonged to the Black African racial group. Debate that one...''

I agree,Wally,that majority of the Kemetians would have been black,but also many Kemetians in the Delta and Lower Egypt were not black. Most likley the people in the Delta region were costal type Northern Africans you see today in Morocco,Libya,and Algeria. On the Narmer Palette,there is picture of Narmer from Upper Egypt smiting what appears to be an Asiatic person which look different from Narmer and the other Upper Egyptians.

''Modern day Egyptians are about as racially mixed as are African-Americans. African-Americans who visit Egypt (sans cameras and tropical shorts) are invariable mistaken for Masri or Egyptians. Debate that one...''

You are correct on this one that many African Americans often get mistaken fot native Egyptians. This esepcially occurs alot in the Southern region. Frank Joseph Yurco brought his Carribean wife to Egypt and she looked more Egyptians than her mixed French-Egypt friend. Understand,the same thing happens to Lower Egyptians from Cairo in Egypt are called ''Khawaga'',which means foreginer because of their apperance. People speaking Cairene Arabic can sometimes barely understand Sa3edi Egyptians. Of course during Medevil times in Egypt, there was less mixing in Upper Egypt,because the assorted city dwellers looked down upon the village dwelling Fellahin. Turks considered these people to be savages and even forced them to join his army and stole their land from them.


''Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.'''

Egypt has been a melting pot since the pre-dyanstic time period. Considering that Lower Egypt was probally more diverse than agricultural pastorial people of Naquda,Badari and other regions. In Lower Egypt around Maadi,we even have references to Palistinean pottery that indicates that Lower Egypt was conducting trade with peole in these regions. In Upper Egypt,we have a close connection to A-group Nubians and Upper Egyptians who shared the same exact cultural base. So the Delta and Lower Egypt was a meeting place for Africans and Asiatics;while Upper Egypt was a meeting place for other Africans and Saharans,as well as the Nomadic Tasin culture that is well connected to the Sudan.

''You may also be surprised to find that many Africans from different parts have long considered themselves very separate from each other''

This is true.

''Yes I understand your point, and that is my point exactly, even though genetically you may show this relationship, you will be placed in the “guy above,s” acceptable box because of your appearance, and some one else who does not have your apearence but may have a closer genetic relationship would not, again based on appearance and colour of skin. Unacceptable, and unjust.''

You are correct to assume that genotype does not mean phenotype. I will point out using Yap+ as I have many times that the modern Egyptians appear to be very close to other African groups. To clear the confusion,eveybody has Yap- which only indicates the out-of Africa hypothesis,so of course Europeans have Yap-. Two distinct Yap + exist ne is existant in Asians and the other is existant in Africans. Geneticists have long debated the origin of the Yap+ and found no pluasible existance origin of it in Asia. Modern Egyptians also through Abo blood typing have a large existance of B which does occur somehwat in other populations,but most frequently in African populations.

The Sutter factor was once touted as the big "African marker."
Some other important ones are cDe(Rho), Fy(a-b-) and antigens V and
Jsa.

It's a bit dated but try this source:

Tills, D. _The distribution of the human blood groups, and other
polymorphisms._ Oxford [Oxfordshire] ; New York : Oxford
University
Press, 1983.
Here are a few abstracts:
Ann Hum Biol 1987 Nov-Dec;14(6):487-93

Human blood groups in Dakahlya, Egypt.
Mahmoud LA, Ibrahim AA, Ghonem HR, Jouvenceaux A.
Department of Clinical Pathology, Faculty of Medicine, Mansurah
University, Egypt.

New data on blood groups among Egyptians (Dakahlya province) are
obtained by studying eight blood group systems: ABO, Rhesus, MNSs,
Kell, Duffy, Kidd, P and Lewis. Comparing our results with the data
reported in neighbouring countries, we found in Egypt a high
frequency of B, NS, cDe and K genes, a moderately high frequency of
P and the presence of Fy gene. The Egyptian population appears as a
mixture of African, Asiatic and Arabian characteristics.

Ann Hum Genet 1984 Jan;48 ( Pt 1):61-4

Xeroderma pigmentosum in Egypt. III. ABO blood grouping in 22
affected families.

German J, Hashem N, El-Hefnawi M, Cleaver JE.

>
> Hum Hered 1974;24(3):259-72

Genetic markers and anthropometry in the populations of the
Egyptian
oases of El-Kharga and El-Dakhla.

Selim O, Kamel K, Azim AA, Gaballah F, Sabry FH, Ibrahim W, Moafy
N,
Hoerman K.

Hum Hered 1974;24(1):12-23

Genetic blood markers and anthropometry of the populations in Aswan
Governorate, Egypt.

Azim AA, Kamel K, Gaballah MF, Sabry FH, Ibrahim W, Selim O, Moafy
N.

J Egypt Med Assoc 1972;55(8):655-60

ABO blood group distribution in relation to malignancies in Egypt.

Hammouda F, Soliman HA, Hussein MH.

Hum Biol 1974 Feb;46(1):57-68

Hereditary blood factors and anthropometry of the inhabitants of
the
Egyptian Siwa Oasis.

Ibrahim WN, Kamel K, Selim O, Azim A, Gaballah MF, Sabry F, el-
Naggar A, Hoerman K.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kieno, To be honest i thought it was a statement, I dont realy understand the question. Could you refrase it for me, then I will respond. Thanks.

---

I was just stating that from my knowledge the few genetic research that was done to "prove" anceint Egyptians were Caucasian or should I say closely related to Caucasians have been biased and unilateral. Many researchers compare the ancient Egyptians to Tropical/Sub-Saharan Africans but when they compare them to Caucasians, they use Mediterranean and not Northern Europeans. They use Sub-Sarahan African type as the prototype (essense) of "Blackness" but use Mediterranean Caucasoids as the caucasian prototype (essense). I don't think this is a controlled research from a scientific point of view.

How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common with Anglo-Saxons, Mediterranean, Northeast Africans and Sub-Saharan African?

would I be wrong if I said that Greeks and Italians have a strong genetic similarity to Northeast african hence they are "Black"?

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

You mentioned that the Africans have the Yap+ and the Europeans have the Yap-.

My understanding is that, Its an inserton on the chromosome called YAP and basically, you either have it on your Y-chromosome which is(YAP+) or you don't have it at all which is (YAP-).

As you said it is most common in sub-Saharan Africa but is found in decreasing amounts across Northern Africa, Europe, Oceania, and Asia, its found in Asia only in Japan and Tibet. The mutation is estimated to be at between 7000 to 10000 years old to its furtherest location in Japan.

Could you direct me to your info please. Are you quoting from africanancestry.com ?

The African and Asian Yap + are different from each other.

see the following

POSTER NO: 584 Y chromosome polymorphisms indicate an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan 1B. Su, 3G.V. Ramana, 3S.H. Lu, 4B. Wen, 5R.S. Wells, 2R. Deka, 6P. Underhill, 2R. Chakraborty, 2L. Jin 1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, China, 2Center for Genome Information, Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati,USA, 3Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston,USA, 4Institute of Genetics, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University and Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences, Shanghai,China, 5Wellcome Trust Center for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, Oxford,UK, 6Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford,USA The Alu insertion polymorphism on the Y chromosome (YAP+) has a characteristic distribution in worldwide populations, mainly restricted in Africa, Central Asia and East Asia. The ongoing controversy on the origin of YAP+ and its mysterious occurrence in East Asia, i.e. dominant in Tibetan and Japanese populations but generally absent in other East Asian populations call for further studies along this ancient human lineage. Here we report our preliminary study on a systematic screening of YAP+ in more than 2,500 male individuals from 70 world populations. Nine Y chromosome biallelic markers derived from the YAP+ polymorphism and eight Y chromosome micro satellites were typed in 172 YAP+ individuals from Africa (35), South Asia (9), Southeast Asia (12) and East Asia (116). Our results showed that African and Asian YAP+ are distinctive from each other due to a deep genetic divergence. No evidence was found to support the hypothesis of an Asian origin of YAP+. Among the East Asian YAP+, Tibetans are the most diversified population and have the haplotype ancestral to those in Japanese, indicating an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan. In addition, a relatively recent migration of YAP+ from Tibet to Yunnan (southwestern China) was also implied by the homogenous YAP+ haplotypes in Yunnan ethnic populations, which was signified by the low microsatellite diversity and an almost fixed unique microsatellite allele at locus DYS392 in Yunnan populations.
<http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0584.htm>

 

According to Jean-François Champollion the Younger, in his 13th letter to his brother, remarking about these 'mural of the races' he had seen in various tombs (and unlike the mural on my web site, the ones Champollion found were structured in a racial hierarchy; 1) Egyptians 2) Other Africans 3) Semites 4) Europeans. This blew Champollions mind:

"According to the legend...they wished to represent the inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender, clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is called Tamhou.... I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes of the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved."

Melting pot - Maybe we merely differ semantically on this one

There have been Asiatic peoples inhabiting the Nile Delta probably since the time it became inhabitable. (Narmer's tablet indeed shows them being subjugated) This is not unusual, anymore than there are Arab peoples who have been in Ethiopia and Somali for decades, since Arabia is but a stone's throw across the pond. That being the case, then Ethiopia is a melting pot. France and England are melting pots as well. Ethiopia is a Black African country. France and England are both White European countries...Melting pots and all.

 

What proof do you have of the ancient Egyptians being racists? Sure the Egyptians were both aware of physical variations,but during the Old Kingdom males were depicted as Reddish brown and females were depicted as a yellowish color. This was symbology and all Egyptians both Upper and Lower Egyptians were depicted as so. Realistic depictions did not start to occur untill the 18th dyansty. This was simply a way to diguise themselves from their enemies that surrounded them.

In the tomb of Horemheb there are pictures of Nubian captives that appear to look like modern Nuer and Dinka people. In contrasts,we also have pictures of Nubians in the tomb of Huy that appear the same as Egyptians during the New Kingdom. While in other tombs like Medinet Haibu there are depictions of red haired Tamahou[Libyans]which are probally the ancestors of modern day Berbers like Kaybele,Riffian,Shawi,and others.

''They distinguished groups according to their ethnicity''
No,they distinguished people according to ''Egyptians'' and ''non-Egyptians''. People who assimilated were painted in the same way that Kemetians were.

''The words Sett (Red; evil; devil)''

Actually,Set was once a good deity that switched later to represent the Hykos deity Sutekh that they associated with their deity. His original birth place was Kom Ombo. Set was never truly evil,but a trickster deity that was still called upon in the barqe of Ra to slay Apep,the serpent of ignorance. He was represented red because of the sand in the Eastern Desert.

''The words Sett (Red; evil; devil)The words Sett (Red; evil; devil) and Deshretiu (Red devils) were racial perjoratives, used to describe White and Semitic peoples. This is well documented''

What text refers to people as red devils? Name your source please. Kemetian refered to many people as wrecthed dreaded,and other epitahs. Does this mean they were racist towards these people? Senworset III banned Nubians from coming into Egypt,but the fact remains he was of Nubian ancestry. Would this imply that Senworset II was racist against himself? Rameses,who refered to Asiatics as wretched,had a daughter named Bint Anath which clearly was a Semetic name.

''there are Arab peoples who have been in Ethiopia and Somali for decades, since Arabia is but a stone's throw across the pond. That being the case, then Ethiopia is a melting pot. France and England are melting pots as well. Ethiopia is a Black African country. France and England are both White European countries...Melting pots and all.''

Yes,this is why some like the Amharan have 30% admixture. This is also why the Asiatic genetic halpotype shows up in some samples of Ethiopians. The Oromo are the oldest people of Ethiopia and show little admixture from Himyarite Yemanis. Somalis have a little Arab admixture due to Mogadishu and it;s interaction with Arabs.

Europe,in a way, was a melting pot of Cro-Magnoid,Grimladi Man,Iberians,and Near-Eastern farmers.

Are you all getting the message about Wally yet?
 

Egyptian = "Ret" (page 435a,b) = Men
Egyptian chauvanism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, etc)
Semites = "Namu" (page 373b) =Travelers or wanderers
We also have "Namu Sho" or People who travel the sands
Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan."
Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red.
"Deshret" (page 554a) = horrible, evil
"Deshretu, Deshrut" (p554a,b) = red ones, red devils; wicked gods associated with Set. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu; a pejorative.
Asiatic copper was called "Hompt Sett" or copper of the red nations.

It is significant that even today, Africans use the term 'red' to describe Europeans, Semites, and even light-complexioned Africans.

Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country

Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.

 

If you get a chance althoug its not about Egypt the Hap marker in japan is interesting, It has corrected a few misconceptions about the (Ainu) Jomom civilisation and settled a few debates.
 

Egyptian = "Ret" (page 435a,b) = Men
Egyptian chauvinism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, Diop, Champollion, etc)
Semites = "Namu" (page 373b) =Travelers or wanderers
We also have "Namu Sho" or People who travel the sands
Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan."
Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red.
"Deshret" (page 554a) = horrible, evil
"Deshretu, Deshrut" (p554a,b) = red ones, red devils; wicked gods associated with Set. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu(Asians); a pejorative.
Asian copper was called "Hompt Sett" or copper of the red nations.

"those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough..."ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..."
---From African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62

It is significant that even today, Africans use the term 'red' to describe Europeans, Semites, and even light-complexioned Africans. A candid Nigerian will tell an African with light or hazel eyes, "you have the devil in your eyes." (Ask one)

--Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.
Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic)
Wolof
 

I have the PDF on Yap + in Egyptians and other Africans,but I am away from my computer right know.

Like I said previously,genetics are only subjective on who they study and from what samples they take. People like Cavalli Sfoza are top people in their field,but the data he uses on African populations is questionable because of his seletive sampling.

Ozzy,understand there is a group of linguist out there called the Nostratics. These people have proposed that one big super group of language from Indo-European,Alatic,Dravidian,and other languages come from a common source of farmers that spread out from Asia Minor. Some have included Afro-Asiatic into this cluster,but so far there has been no positive link to this group.

I prefer to use historical and linguistic data when conducting reserch,but I can venture off in population genetics when necessary. Many of these geneticist donot take in consideration historical or archeological events that have taken place. This is true when they reference Egypt.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 09 October 2003).]
 

Yes,most Western and Central Africans refer to lighter people then themselves as ''red'' and even ''white''. Reported cases of African Americans moving to Ghana the locals have refered to them as ''white'' and even ''red''. The Mande people often refer to white people as toumba[sp]. Some linguist speculate that the Wolof word honq is the origin for the epitaph honky.

The ancient Kemetians called foregin people the following: Setjet,Ferakhu[Caanites,Phonecians],Bedu[nomadic arabs that lived around the Sinai],mazoi[Nubian tribe],Yam[region that later became Cush],Wawat[region of Lower Nubia],medijay[related to the modern day Beja],aamu[Asiatics],lebou[Libya],Techneu[dark skinned Libyans],Tamhou[white skinned libyans possibly desendants of modern Kaybele,Riffian,Chawi,and others]

''Egyptian chauvinism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, Diop, Champollion, etc)''

Kemetians refered to themselves as Rmt En Km

Show me in exact quatations where any of the following said the Kemetians were chavinistic. If you pay close attention on the bas reliefs you notice that women are placed as equal size of their male conterpart. Usually in Babylonian art we see that females are shown below the size of men. This was not existant in ancient Kmt.

Diop argued that the Kemetians were matriarchical like other Africans.

''Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan." ''

Actually,the word means riverline Nubian not black.

''Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red. ''
Tamahu refered to Libyans.

''those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough..."ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..."
---From African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62''

Diop quoted Menetho to counter attack that Kemetians only refered to Nubians as wretched. Yes,Senworset I also refered to Asiatics as ''vile'' and bragged about being the throat slitter of Asia.

''Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.
Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic)''

Depends which region of Nubia you are talking about since Ta-Seti[Lower Nubia] was considered part of Kmt. The term for Nubia was ta-seti,and the word Nubia did not come into use until Greco-Roman times. In the ''Hymn to Aten'' Akenaten denotes all lands south of Ta-seti to be foregin lands with the exception of Punt which was considered ta-ankhu[land of the ancestors]

Yes, the Kemetians referred to themselves as Rome n Kem(et) (Rmt en kem), but also Kemmiu, Kemetiu(Kmtjw), Kemu (Kmw), Ret, etc. It was Maspero who first mentions the term Rot en na Rome (Ret na Rome) in his history of Egypt.

Nahas means "good for nothing in wolof"; of course it doesn't mean black. It essentially means "barbarian." Wolof is as close to Pharaonic Egyptian as Coptic is.

Nubia comes from the Kemetian noun Nub for gold, and we also have Nubi or "gold worker", it became the name of the gold region of Egypt/Sudan.

True, the Kemetians claimed Punt(land), Somali, as one of their ancestral homelands, the other was Ta-Seti, or simply "the south." Depended on which ethnic group was dominant at the time (IE., Mesnitu, Anu).

 

Many of these areas are just as interesting. Diop did not just write about Kmt,but also wrote about other parts of Africa to.

Out of curiosity Wally, are you the same person who did the web page''The Pyramids are not a Mystery''?

>> This is probably inevitable.
"Out of curiosity Wally, are you the same person who did the web page''The Pyramids are not a Mystery''?"

>> A site supporting organized religion?! Heaven's no! (good looking site, though...)

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptiangurl:
just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

---

Copt is not an ethnic group, it is sect of Christainty practised in Egypt, Ethiopia and Ertirea. Just cause you are born in Egypt does not mean you are the closest thing to Ancient Egyptian, hell you could be closer to the Romans or Greeks more than the Ancient Egyptians.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptiangurl:
just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

---

hey, a coptic christian! i don't think we've had one a coptic here since egyptmed. how are you egyptiangurl?
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
You also have the same IP trail as wally, Go figure?????

---

ozzy, i really don't see what this has to do with anything. i don't want to make it seem as if i'm taking any sides here because i'm not, but does this really matter? it doesn't offer anything to anyone on this board. if it's a credibility issue, then i think that's a little silly because we are simply people posting on an internet forum.

i've long had problems with egyptology (amongst other disciplines) because too often they attack the credibility of their opposition, rather than the points they make. hawass is the most recent example i can think of, attacking fletcher's credibilty, rather than debating her points.

and how can you even tell what someone's IP trail is on this board anyway (not that i'd actually go and do it)?
 

Actually,what she is saying about the Coptics is partially true. Many Coptics that live in Lower Egypt are very light and pale,but she should not speak for all Coptics throughout Egypt. The Coptics in Upper Egypt are dark brown,and many of them could be considered black in America.

Know what is a lie is that only Coptic Egyptians are pure. This is a blantant lie that has been made by some Coptics because of their persicution by other Muslims.

She is also mistaken to say that the only black people in modern Egypt are the Sudanese of Nubians. Go to any place in Luxor,Aswan,or even Assiut and look at both the Coptic and Muslim populations there.

What the Coptic correspondent stated is true certainly of Copts found in
the northern part of Egypt, and in Middle Egypt. However, there is a large
Coptic population in Luxor, as well as Aswan, and those Copts are brown
complexioned just like the other, Muslim Egyptians of those parts of
Egypt. So, it is not true that all Copts are light complexioned.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Yes, Egyptologists do consider the ethnicity of the Egyptians, but in a rational way without the flaming that is seen in many postings in this issue. To the Egyptian who considered any dark complexioned Egyptians as descendants of Nubians or Sudanese, have you ever travelled from Luxor to Aswan? There the entire population is dark brown in complexion. Yet can you write them all off as descendants of Sudanese? Hardly. They are Egyptians and that they have been that complexion for thousands of years is demonstrated by New Kingdom paintings of the Theban population, then just as dark brown as now, for instance, in Sennedjem's tomb at Deir el-Medinah. So, what we have is a very diverse population in Egypt, light complexioned in the north, and gradually darkening as you proceed south. Another myth that needs exploding is that all Copts are light complexioned. Ever meet a Copt from Luxor or Aswan? They are as brown as the rest of the population there. I lived three years in Luxor and have travelled extensively in Egypt, so I speak from experience. Again, surveying the ancient monuments can be instrutive. So, for instance, the statue of Sheikh el-Beled, or Ka-Aper, as he was known anciently, looks exactly like the people of Saqqara today. That's how he acquired the name "Sheikh el Beled" for those who know the story of the statue's finding by Mariette's workmen. Another famous excavated piece is the double statues of Rahotep and Nofret. You can see people like the facially, all over the Cairo greater area. What differs, is the color convention that has depicted Nofret as light and Rahotep as red-brown. Aside from that color convention, if you examine the facial details of Dynasty IV-V statuary and reliefs, they look very alike the modern Cairo area population. As Sinuhe, in his story put it, when a Delta man finds himself in Elephantine, he is confused. The two extreme parts of Egypt were quite distinct even back in Dynasty 12! Another of Sinuhe's metaphors is, "can the papyrus ever cleave to the rock" another contrast of the Delta with Elephantine.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Kem, Before making comments like above you should first ensure you do not or have not done the same. Should I cut and past some of the things you have labled others without addressing the issue?

As for the IP thing I think its very relivant considering that you aare all responding to the same person; who loggs on in different names: Wally has no less than three or four logg in names. Ausar can confirm as he has access to IP loggs, he cn tell you if he knows what he is loking at that the Ips are from the same server.

As for debating his or hers arrgument, I think you know by now if I felt it was worth the efort I could debate any and all his or hers posts.

PS:Anyone can track IPs, check servers etc etc.

The Coptics cannot claim they are pure,because over the centuries Greeks freely intermixed with the Coptics in Lower Egypt and Middle Egypt. This is well docuemnted the mixing of Greeks and Egyptians.

The only pure Egyptians today are the Fellahin,Sa3eadi,and other people who dwell in Upper Egypt. We know for sure that these areas were ruled indepdently by Egyptians that even claimed themselves to be pharoahs.

The term Coptic comes from the Arabic term Qibti which actually refers to all Egyptians who untill Caliph Hakim were all Christains. Coptics in Upper Egypt spoke Sahidic Coptic untill about the 16th century. All Coptic dialects desend from Sahidic which is clearly Upper Egyptian in origin.

Little does the poster know that Al Kahiz,a writer in the 9th and 10th century, refered to the Coptics as amung the black people of the world. Other Arab writters also wrote about the blackness of the Coptics. Even today in regions of Southern Egypt there are Coptics there that are dark brown like the Muslims and have wavy to kinky hair. Matter of fact,most of the Coptic population is in Assiut,Luxor,and Aswan.

Al-Jahiz (Abu Uthman Amr ibn Bahr al-Kinani al-Fugaimi
al-Basri) was among other things a naturalist, a
zoologist, and a taxonomist. Many have called him the
greatest scholar of hist time. In The Book of the Glory
of the Blacks over the Whites he writes:

"And they said, 'The number of blacks is greater than the
number of whites, because most of those who are counted as
whites are comprised of peoples from Persia, the mountains,
Khurasan, Rome, Slavia, France, and Iberia, and anything
apart from them is insignificant. But among the blacks are
counted the Zanj, the Ethiopians, the Fezzani, the Berbers,
the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors, the people
of Sind, the Hindus, the Qamar, the Dabila, the IndoChinese,
and those beyond them. The sea is more extensive than the
land, and the islands in the sea between IndoChina and Zanzibar
are full of blacks, like the Sarandib, Kalah, Amal, Zabij,
and its islands up to Hindustan and IndoChina, and Kabul and
those coasts."

Ibn Qutayba (828-89) wrote: Wahb ibn Nunabbih said: Ham the son of Noah was a white man, with a handsome face and a fine figure, and Almighty God changed his color and the color of his descendants in response to his father's curse. He went away, followed by his sons, and they settled by the shore, where God increased and multiplied them. They are the blacks. ...Some of his children went to the West. Ham begat Kush ibn Ham, Kan`an ibn Ham, and Fut ibn Ham. Fut settled in India and Sind and their inhabitants are his descendants. Kush and Kan`an's descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers. (Kitab al-Ma`arif, ed. Tharwat `Ukasha, 2nd ed., Cairo, 1969, p. 26)

Finally, the posters have lurched into the truth on the issue of who the
ancient Egyptians were. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike are
dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy to kinky. Certainly,
in the ante-bellum American South, they would have been classed with the
other Africans who were enslaved. That ante-bellum southern image is still
common in the United States, where if you have any African ancestors you
are classed as "b;ack". Yet, how screwed up the Americans are is evident
by how the census bureau deals with Egyptians who migrate to the United
States. They are classed as "white" no matter how brown they appear!!!

The facts are this: Egyptians are, and were anciently an African people.
All Africans, though are not uniformly black! In the Nile Valley, pre-
cisely, you can see the whole array of complexions that these Africans
come in, from the light complexioned northern Egyptians, to the light
brown of Middle Egypt, the rich brown of southern Upper Egypt and the
Sudan, and finally the jet black Shilluk, Dinka, and Nuer. No Africans
anywhere are blacker than these three Sudanese groups.

So, calling ancient Egypt an African culture is quite correct, but
calling it a black culture, simply takes the American social construct
and incorrectly applies it to a country where it simply does not fit.
No wonder the Egyptians get upset with this misrepresentation. I cannot
blame them, and agree with them, that all people in their society, no
matter how light or dark complexioned, are Egyptians. They have never
practiced racial discrimination such as the American and certain western
Europeans nations reek from.

Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Here is some of your ''so called' white Coptics. Most look more Mulatto than white.

http://www.4th-district.com/Images/4th-mind.jpg
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p17a.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p18b.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p9a.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p18a.htm

The following a Coptics take from El Kosheneh,but darker skinned Coptics live further to the South.

Here is description of moder Egyptian fellahin in Luxor who have not mixed with anybody !!!!!!!!!

Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African negro
blood, he [Shahhat] looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most of the
men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had strong
cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged faces,
Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
The reader might conclude from such a description that Critchfield's
initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his features
were much less African than those of the majority of Upper Egyptians.
Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of northern
Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs, and
consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice is the
second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to poverty:
racism.
Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent racial
implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an Egyptian is
an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and diversity
of rural Egyptian life.
Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American Educational Trust
specializing in Islamic affairs.
Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available from the http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm

Egyptians were never Medditerean or Middle Eastern except for Lower Egypt around the Delta !!!!!!!!!

The civlization of Egypt started in Upper Egypt were even today the people are dark brown !!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kem, Before making comments like above you should first ensure you do not or have not done the same. Should I cut and past some of the things you have labled others without addressing the issue?

---

yeah, that would make an interesting research project. let's see what you can dig up.
 

[This message has been edited by blackman (edited 11 October 2003).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
You also have the same IP trail as wally, Go figure?????

---

Ozzy,
Do you think I am the same person as Wally?
I'm not. Let's get back to the topic please. I think egyptiangurl is the revised version of egyptmed or whowever by other names.

Carry on shall we?

The article has a neighbor-joining tree and dendogram
both showing that present-day Egyptians cluster
together with Africans. A sample of 64 Egyptians was
used.

From Passarino et al.

Ethiopian (64) 50.0 ± 6.2
Senegalese:
Mandenka (56) 98.2 ± 1.8
Wolof (31) 100
Mixed African (44) 59.1 ± 7.4
Bantu (442) 78.0 ± 2.0
Khoisan:
Nama Sekele San 68) 46 ± 6
Tsumkwe San (38) 11 ± 5
Egyptian (64) 53.1 ± 6.2
Saudi Arabian (21) 10.0 ±6.4
European (192) 7.0 ± 1.8

<http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v62>
n2/970077/970077.html

here is the Yap + for Egyptians and some other people

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Ausar, Do you know what the representation for the Egyptian sample was. Re; you always point out that sameples do not often include rural populations and often come from norther populations.

---

I'm not sure where in Egypt the sample was taken but I do know that it was a relatively small number of Egyptians used in the study.

 

Again,depending which population they took from Egypt the numbers would be different.

 

Ozzy,the Khoisan are amung the earliest people on the planet. These people are probally amung our earliest ancestors. Ethiopians are related,because they are also amung the earliest people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Are you the same Tarah that is part of the Kemetic orthdoux? ???

---

No,I don't even know what that is! But I'm interested to know now that you brought it up...will you tell me?

 

Are there a few actors from Luxor or Asyut then are there?

I Watched a TV movie the other day made in 2002 were black Americans played New guinea highlanders. I have also seen non native Americans play, native American Indians, French, Spanish, German, Greek; Italian, Russian, Australian aboriginal, New Zealander Maori, Polonisian, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Arab, etc, etc, etc. I don’t think Its a conspiracy its simple economics. Thats not to say I agree with it.

The photos were taken by a man by the name of Jorge Tutor; he is not Egyptian. The phot´s are of a family around the Luxor area as Ausar has stated. Jorge did not post the pics.

You may wish to check out the rest of his site, the photos are excellent.

 

____________________________________________

Ozzy, I understand that people select different actors on budget reasons. It would be a pleasent change to see that ethnic groups are played by their proper ethnic group. Not only Egyptians,but other groups to.

One thing I am disapointed with is that there never has been a documentary on the rual Egyptians. If I ever get up enough money and a camera crew I plan to document them for cultural,and anthropological reasons. There is a cultural center in modern Egypt that documents this,but unfortunatley I donot have their adress.

The person who did those photos did a very nice job. I also like the shots of the pyramids,sphinx,and Cairo.

The festival features a colorful pageantry, a fascinating array of
centuries-old musical instruments, and dances ranging from the martial
artistry of the TaHtib (stick dancing) to the Raks Sharki (belly
dancing). The festival provides a rare look at Egyptian folk arts
spanning nearly 6,000 years. The performers are drawn primarily from
Cairo's Nile Folklore Traditional Group, which was founded in 1954
with the mission of preserving the authenticity of ancient Egyptian
folklore and presenting it as a living art to today's audiences. The
festival's artistic director, Abdel Rahman ElShafie, travels
throughout Egypt visiting villages and remote provinces in search of
artists who have learned their craft from their parents and
grandparents.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Ozzy, I understand that people select different actors on budget reasons. It would be a pleasent change to see that ethnic groups are played by their proper ethnic group. Not only Egyptians,but other groups to.

---

ausar, we've been over this topic before, but the reasons are not always budget. in fact, i'd go as far to say that when it comes to africa, especially egypt, it's usually not budget.

there was a discovery channel program i mentioned a while back where "nubians" were said to be black africans, but egyptians were not. go see the play aida. the egyptians are white, but if a black actor is used, s/he will play a nubian. in the recent mummy movies, the egyptians are white. in movies that deal with slavery (amistad) the actors are black etc. there are too many examples to go into.

there is clearly a double standard here, but the trend is beginning to change. the discovery channel is beginning to use more black actors in egyptian programs. And there was a computer program I saw recently (I believe it was called civilization) where they had both egyptian and kushite civilizations and both were black.

now as far as using rural egyptains themselves, i think that might have something to do with socio-economic conditions in egypt today, but i can't say for sure.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Here is more information if you are interested.

The festival features a colorful pageantry, a fascinating array of
centuries-old musical instruments, and dances ranging from the martial
artistry of the TaHtib (stick dancing) to the Raks Sharki (belly
dancing). The festival provides a rare look at Egyptian folk arts
spanning nearly 6,000 years. The performers are drawn primarily from
Cairo's Nile Folklore Traditional Group, which was founded in 1954
with the mission of preserving the authenticity of ancient Egyptian
folklore and presenting it as a living art to today's audiences. The
festival's artistic director, Abdel Rahman ElShafie, travels
throughout Egypt visiting villages and remote provinces in search of
artists who have learned their craft from their parents and
grandparents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Kem-Au,would you agree that rual Upper Egyptians are the direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians?

---

absolutely. in fact, i believe that is part of the reason they are not more well known today.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Here is more information if you are interested.

The festival features a colorful pageantry, a fascinating array of
centuries-old musical instruments, and dances ranging from the martial
artistry of the TaHtib (stick dancing) to the Raks Sharki (belly
dancing). The festival provides a rare look at Egyptian folk arts
spanning nearly 6,000 years. The performers are drawn primarily from
Cairo's Nile Folklore Traditional Group, which was founded in 1954
with the mission of preserving the authenticity of ancient Egyptian
folklore and presenting it as a living art to today's audiences. The
festival's artistic director, Abdel Rahman ElShafie, travels
throughout Egypt visiting villages and remote provinces in search of
artists who have learned their craft from their parents and
grandparents.

---

wow, can ppl like me visit one of these? do you have more info, like where or when? i'd love to go to one.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarah:
[QUOTE]
Wow, that sounds like a breathtaking experience. It reminds me a lot of the Native American Indian festivals(called pow-wows)that we have here in the U.S. I love going to those because of my heritage, but even if I weren't half Cherokee I would still enjoy it. We have dancers and drum ceremonies and great food and crafts.

---

can you tell me when and where these are held? you can send me an e-mail if you like.
 

The problem is you have a very hetrogenous population that varies from very different phenotypes,so people naturally get these people confused. Even Egyptians in Lower Egypt who come to Upper Egypt often get called Khawagas because of their apperance,and there is also a language difference between Cairene Arabic and Upper Egyptian[Saidi] Arabic. Apparently,this has been in Egypt for quite a while according to the ''Tales of Sinhue''.

What is sad is that modern Egyptians donot idenify with the very distant past condeming it as pagan. Only the very rual modern Egyptians preserve the traditions of the ancient Egyptians. Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 22 October 2003).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
[BSome will say that rual Egyptians like the Sa3eadi are the direct desendants and others will give you various other opinions.
Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 22 October 2003).][/B]

---

I'm very curious, what is the Sa3eadi? I've seen this name in other threads and it confuses me because there is the number "3" inserted into the spelling. Is this the English translation from another language? If so, what language is its origin? And how is it pronounced? Sorry, just curious.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
can you tell me when and where these are held? you can send me an e-mail if you like.

---

Sa3eadi refers to people from Upper Egypt. The 3 is an Arabic accent mark that is used in Arabic words in translations. Since Arabic and other Semetic languages have not vowels.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

What is sad is that modern Egyptians donot idenify with the very distant past condeming it as pagan. Only the very rual modern Egyptians preserve the traditions of the ancient Egyptians. Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 22 October 2003).]

---

ausar, i know there are people who disagree with my, but i think that modern day egyptians who consider the ancients pagan, and who persecute "witches" are simply not descended from kemites. why would someone show such blatant disrespect for their own ancestors? these people are arabs, or turks, or descendants of greeks etc, not kemite descendants.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarah:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kem-Au:
[b] can you tell me when and where these are held? you can send me an e-mail if you like.

---

[/B][/QUOTE]

i'm american, i live in new jersey. my e-mail address is Akhenaten@comcast.net.
 

There are some colourful photos from Luxor
 

To Wally: your description of this picture is not correct: first figure is surely Nubian, second is Lybian, third is other Nubian and fourth is Semite.You must use faithful informations!
 

Yes,majority of Algerians are very light complected,but there are people like the Tuareg that live in the Sahara area that are dark skinned. In Algeria there are also people called the Haratin that are desedant of the ancient Saharan people.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayazid:
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/

To Wally: your description of this picture is not correct: first figure is surely Nubian, second is Lybian, third is other Nubian and fourth is Semite.You must use faithful informations!

---

There is actually a big debate to that. Some say the first figure is an Egyptian, but Kent Weeks website (though that doesn't mean Weeks himself wrote it) says it is a Nubian mistaken for an Egyptian. The question is who made the mistake? The two figures are labeled differently, and have very slight facial differences. I can't read the glyphs, so I don't know if it says one is an Egyptian. But if it does, I'd be inclined to think it is correct.
 

Last one is the Kemetian

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 October 2003).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Obenga:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/colors1.jpg

Last one is the Kemetian

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 October 2003).]

---

those are actually two different images. it's not the same as the one posted earlier.
 

Look that the current western representation of Jesus christ! Blond haired, blue eyes, pale skin. When the bible described him as bronze (a rich/dark shade of brown) with hair like wool! Also the bones found in Israel around the time Jesus is supposed to be alive represent an Afo-asiatic or Eurafrican type. So it isn't much of a shock to me that the western view tries to paint the ancient egyptians as white, but what is a shock is supposedly educated people look at all the fact and some try to turn black white and disregard information that indicates views that are different from the eurocentric society.

Another things is the Arab influence into Cairo and other nothern countries while Upper and parts of middle egypt have much of the original phenotype of the ancients. Had this been any other place that had no big significance, it would have been easily seen that: 1) many rural upper egyptians still have some of the culture of the ancient egyptians. 2) The "Arab" north has none the original culture and the Arab invasion didn't take place until about 7th century. I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture. There are countless facts that "solves" the origin of these people, but the the western view does not like them. They don't fit their "eurocentric" view of the world hence it is a "mystery".

If you don't think that white western world as a whole thinks that black is inferior ask a black person in america, Austria, South Africa and some parts of Europe. A white person in america might not notice the subtle sometimes blatant undertone of "white right and black stay back" mentality. If you are a white person ask yourself honestly, "How would my family and friends think if I brought home a black boyfriend/girlfriend or married someone black?" You can even ask yourself this if you're not white, but not black.

I know it is a very debatable aspect of Ancient Egyptian history that doesn't get the proper coverage in the proper way. Many Egyptologist view ancient Egyptians like a separate race. Its like calling african americans non-black while only calling sub-saharan africans black when egyptologist use phrases such as, "during this period the Black pharoh of Nubia ruled Egypt and later the Egyptians took it over." When the only difference was the ethnicity of these two peoples not the race.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
Dear Keino, I think that is absolute nonsense to say that the ancient Egyptians were "black" or "white" people. My father is black but I´m not influenced by the ideas of afrocentrism in that case.I think that the ancient Egyptians were mostly mediterrean people with certain negroid elements, which are distinct up to the present , especially in the Upper Egypt.To say that light-skinned Egyptian of the Lower Egypt is probably foreigner and dark-skinned Egyptian from the South is certainly direct descendant of the ancient Egyptians is groundless racism, the Ancient Egypt were very heterogenous and there were different phenotypes. But it´s true that there were some influences from Asia and Europe in the North.

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I respect your view, but I see the evidence as proving the ORIGINS of the ancient People as Being "black". I am not saying that they weren't a "mixed" population because it is evident that they had some admixture. When it comes to the origins of The ancients I think the edivence clearly points to a "Black" African ORIGIN.

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 24 October 2003).]
 

Know I agree that most of the era that Lower Egypt was probally coastal type Northern Africans related to the other Africans who lived on the coastal regions of Northern Africa. We must consider that most of the pharoahs came from Upper Egypt and this is also where the civlization originated.

Recently over the years,Lower Egptians,have produced more rapidily than people in Upper Egypt. Around the turn of the century the population was only about 3 million,but know the population in Egypt is over 80 million people. Many Mamelukes,Turks,Kurds,and Arabs settled in the Northern regions,especially Around Cairo. Much of the elite in modern day Egypt are desendants of these people to.

I will agree that the populations of Egypt was heterogenous,but I reject the notation that is was mostly Medditerean. Remeber we are talking about Dyanstic and pre-dyanstic Egyptians.
 

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Originally posted by ausar:
Ayazid,the population of Egypt was mostly in Upper Egypt up to the modern era. I would say the negriod element in Egypt was far from minor. It is not racist to say that many of the people of Lower Egypt probally do have lots of foreign ancestry. Even though the Arabic invasion was small in number,Greeks settled the regions of Lower and Middle Egypt and did have an effect on the population there.

Know I agree that most of the era that Lower Egypt was probally coastal type Northern Africans related to the other Africans who lived on the coastal regions of Northern Africa. We must consider that most of the pharoahs came from Upper Egypt and this is also where the civlization originated.

Recently over the years,Lower Egptians,have produced more rapidily than people in Upper Egypt. Around the turn of the century the population was only about 3 million,but know the population in Egypt is over 80 million people. Many Mamelukes,Turks,Kurds,and Arabs settled in the Northern regions,especially Around Cairo. Much of the elite in modern day Egypt are desendants of these people to.

I will agree that the populations of Egypt was heterogenous,but I reject the notation that is was mostly Medditerean. Remeber we are talking about Dyanstic and pre-dyanstic Egyptians.

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Thank you Ausar! The point I wanted to make was how some scientist seem to disreguard some scientific procedures and way of thinking when it comes to Ancient and modern Egypt. How is it possible to say that all present day egyptians are white when some of them are abvioulsy not? Doesn't this raise a red flag? Why does some countries like America want to make ALL egyptians white so badly that they would classify a dark skinned, kinky haired person white, but at the same time is so prejudiced and sometimes racist towards people of that phenotype? To me it make no sense. Why is it that some current day egyptologist take Heroditus word that Egypt soil was black, but reject his him when he describes the people as black with kinky hair?

As I see it some Egyptoligist are chosing what they want to believe is fact while rejecting anything that does not fit their preconceived notion of who these ancient people were. Do you think these people were so intelligent and kept records of the stars for centuries, but can't keep a record of where they originated? Why do scientist reject that Ancient Egyptians origins are in the south (punt/Sudan) when they said so themself?

If we as humans take all of our biases (Eurocentrism, afrocentrism, and all other "isms") I still believe that there would be enough information that proves that the origins of Ancient Egyptians was indeed a Black African one!

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

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Originally posted by Amun:
Here we go again... It has always been evident that Egyptians were always different shades of brown. There is asiatic mixture in lower Egypt but its not enough to discount most lower Egyptians as descendants of the ancients. Both lower and upper Egyptians retain a look distinctive from Syrians and Saudis. If I were Egyptian I would be offended.

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i've said this too many times before, and i've even posted my reasons for it, but i simply do not believe the majority of lower egyptians descend from kemites. there is too much eveidence to the contrary.

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population. again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently. but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people. kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

i don't want to give the inpression that i have a problem with arabs because i don't. from what i've learned, kemites did some terrible things too. but i live in america, though i don't decend from the same people most americans do. my culture is different, my way of speaking is different. the link is that americans all live here. i do not take offense to people saying that englishmen are not my ancestors.
 

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
There is actually a big debate to that. Some say the first figure is an Egyptian, but Kent Weeks website (though that doesn't mean Weeks himself wrote it) says it is a Nubian mistaken for an Egyptian. The question is who made the mistake?

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Could you post a link to that webpage? I searched Kent Weeks's website for quite some time but was unable to find it.

 

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Originally posted by Marcus:
Could you post a link to that webpage? I searched Kent Weeks's website for quite some time but was unable to find it.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population.

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I agree. The point I'm making is that Arabs didn't just recently appear in Egypt, Syrio-Palestinian tribes had been settling in the Delta as early as the first dynasty and by the 13th dynasty, the Hyksos entered lower Egypt with little resistance. Egyptologists note a significant increase in the number of Egyptians of high rank with Asiatic names by the 18th dynasty. So it's evident that the descendants of Asiatic immigrants and slaves could assimilate.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

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I don't know much about a population explosion. Perhaps you could give more details. It's true that Egypt has had many immigrants over time but what evidence is there supporting an unusual rise in the general population numbers?

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently.

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I agree with the first point but the same goes for upper Egypt. More foriegnors live in lower Egypt but upper Egypt has had foriegnors too. As far as culture goes, more lower Egyptians live in the cities and city dwellers tend to be more cosmopolitan and less bound by cultural traditions. In the US we have regional differences in culture as well. People in NYC live much differently than people in the suburban and rural areas of the American south.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people.

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To some extent, due to a mix of Arab, greek, and Turkish immigrants, you're right but most Egyptians I've met(I've met lots of Egyptians in NYC and Philadelphia) or seen from Cairo and Alexandria are light to brown skin and they have kinky to wavy hair. I have often mistaken Egyptians for Dominicans, or Puerto Ricans. Rarely have I mistaken an Egyptian for an Arab or Turk. As I said earlier, Egyptians have a distinctive look.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

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Kemites were not homogenous. They had 3 to 4 different phenotypes. I have seen little evidence supporting a homogeneous ancient population.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]
 

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
i've said this too many times before, and i've even posted my reasons for it, but i simply do not believe the majority of lower egyptians descend from kemites. there is too much eveidence to the contrary.

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population. again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently. but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people. kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

i don't want to give the inpression that i have a problem with arabs because i don't. from what i've learned, kemites did some terrible things too. but i live in america, though i don't decend from the same people most americans do. my culture is different, my way of speaking is different. the link is that americans all live here. i do not take offense to people saying that englishmen are not my ancestors.

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I agree with you Kem-Au. The immigration patterns and cultural aspect indicate that Upper egyptians are the much closer to ancient Egyptians than Upper. Any other area outside of Egypt and maybe the "middle East" historians would see that the Arab north in comprised of mostly foreign people compared to the south which still have alot of the cultural and phenotypic similarities as ancient Egypt. I just don't get the sloppy, "chose when to apply this procedure, chose when to reject that procedure". Had this been any other area of the world, the wishy-washy scientific procedures would be unacceptable.

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley
 

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The division of Egypt into south and north (upper and lower) may have reflected a conflict between African natives and Asiatic immigrants. The dangerous accentuation of geographic and ethnic differences was resolved for a time when Menes brought the "Two lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws that he claimed had been given to him by Thoth, and established the first historic dynasty.

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The cultural differences between north and south existed since Egypt's founding. Indigenous Africans founded Egypt but Near Eastern people have dominated lower Egypt for several millenia. Long enough to be considered descendants of kemites.

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During the Second Intermediate Period the foreign Hyksos rulers brought the Delta to prominence by establishing their capital at Avaris in the north-east Delta. These people, who were originally Asiatic immigrants from Canaan, gradually became more and more powerful until they dominated Lower Egypt around the seventeenth century BC, ruling through vassal overlords.

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By the time the Hyksos came to power in Egypt, the north was already dominated by Asiatics...

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For many centuries the Hyksos capital of Avaris was a lost city and its ancient walls have only been discovered over the past two decades by an Austrian Expedition led by Professor Manfred Bietak, near the modern village of Tell el-Daba. Other important Delta towns have also been re-excavated more thoroughly in recent years with the aid of modern technology. To the north-east of Tell el-Daba, beyond the town of Qantir, is the site of Per-Rameses (Piramesse). This was the Delta estate of Rameses II and capital of the region during Dynasty XIX and early Dynasty XX, after which it was abandoned, leaving little in situ at the site today.

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As you can see, the descendants of the Hyksos became very powerful in Egypt and eventually challeneged the High Priests of Amun who dominated upper Egypt after the 18th dynasty.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]
 

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com

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Um, I knew that. I meant the article(?) on his website that discusses the "mural of the races" painting you were talking about. I used the search function on his site but couldn't find it.

 

Something that makes this subject rather confusing is talking about a people without specifing a time period. What we call native, aboriginal, or indiginouse depends in part on a time period.

Anyone with a 500 or more history in the new world, such as Australia, America etc could be called if not native at least, American or Australian etc. Some people of the pacific Islands are as recent as 800 years as in the Islands of New Zealand, and they are considered Indiginouse.

I dont think anyone would deny any of those or Us our claim to be of those nations regardless of how far back our history goes.

(PS I do understand the difference between native, aboriginal, or indiginouse )

England has a history of invasion and settlement, over a less period than Egypt but no one would deny any Englishman the right to be called English. Regardless of if they were decended from the original inhabitants or Normans or Anglo-Saxons or Romans or Germanic tribes or Vikings, or any other minority that introduced their DNA into the population.

So when we talk of who is Egyptian or who were the Ancient Egyptians, how far do we go back,? 500 years? 2000 years? 3000? years, 5000? years, or 10,000 years?. Each of these would give you a different answer.

If we take the start of the dynasties or earlier as the mark then only a small part of the current population could lay any clam to the title. And even that would be debatable.

But even then how can we denie those who came after, all the way to the last Dynasty that contributed to the civilisation, the right to call themselves Ancient Kemitians? As without them, the history and grandure of the civilisation may not have existed as we know it today.

So can we clear something up here please, who do we call Ancient Kemitians? what time period do we give to this clasification?.

Anything beyond this point in time I think we could call "all" who have been born in to this country, to this very day "Egyptian". Before this date there lyes the debate.

My second dilema lies before this date,

There is evidence that North African types as we know them today existed some 10,000 years ago, maybe as i believe from different migrations up and down the firtile crest over 10s of thousands of years. They dwelt mainly in the Lower Nile. Regardless of who began the Dynasties, the uper and Lower Nile were in contact, interacted and at an early period maybe even united.

So there were at least two distinct groups along the nile as far back as 10,000 years ago.

So on what criteria do we give to establish who were the Ancient Kemitians?

The people who established the Dynasties? Which may be the Upper Egyptians, which excludes the Lower Egyptians from the title. Although the Lower Egyptians existed as early and may have contributed as much as Upper Egypt, but not as a governing body. Does this make hem less able to claim themselves as Ancient egyptians.

The Families who maintained the Dynasties? who may have even been from an area which may not have even represented the majority population of Ancient egypt at the time.

Or the Archelogical evidance of peoples prior to the dynasties?. Who may have not been the same as the founding peoples of the Dynasties.

All of the above,(And there are many more) will also give you a different answer.

Anyone have a yard stick?

Amun,Lower Egypt has had large amounts of birth-rates as compared to Upper Egypt. The population around 1865 was only about three miliion;however due to the increase of living standards under Mohammed Ali the population grew to the number that it is know. Right know it is about 83 million,and climbling each year.

At one time during the Greco-Roman era Egyptians were not even allowed to go into the city of Alexzandria. Greek forbade mixing with Egyptians in the colony of Naukratis[sp],but in other Greek city states through out Egypt Greek freely mixed with Egyptians. See the book the following book:Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan Bowman. Of course this had little effect on Upper Egyptian villages,but I am sure that regions like Fayium,El Minya,and other places in Middle Egypt there was a effect.

''I agree with the first point but the same goes for upper Egypt. More foriegnors live in lower Egypt but upper Egypt has had foriegnors too. As far as culture goes, more lower Egyptians live in the cities and city dwellers tend to be more cosmopolitan and less bound by cultural traditions. In the US we have regional differences in culture as well. People in NYC live much differently than people in the suburban and rural areas of the American south.''

This is certainly a good point about the regional differences in Upper and Lower Egypt. You are certainly correct that foreginers do exist in Upper Egypt. Jews,according to the Book Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan Bowman,have lived in Thebes[Waset],Aswam[Elephantine],and sections of Middle Egypt, So foreginers have existed in these regions for quite a while;at least since the Persian Era in Egypt these people have existed in these region,and perhaps going further back.

For instance,Gamal Abdel Nasser,a strong proponent for pan_Arabization, was from around Middle Egypt. His family had come from wealthy Arabs who came from Hijaz settling in Middle Egypt. One physical apperance that set Nasser apart from other Egyptians was his noses,for his nose was not an Egyptian nose,but an Arab one. The common epitah for ''Asiatic Arabs'' is the term Shamy. The other foreginers in Upper Egypt are Horobat[tomb robbers],Jamasah[bedouins who fled Makkah,and it is forbidden to marry them],and Yemani bedouins[rarely do sa3eadi marry these people,but intermarriage has happened.

As far as the murals of race,Egyptians colored themselves Reddish brown for puposes to distinguish themselves from foreginers. This was not realistic at all,but simply symbolic in nature. Not untill the 18th dyansty do we see depictions of Upper Egyptians in the tombs of Ramose,Ipuy,Sennefer,and others that reflects the realistic color of the indivuals.
 

Prior to unification of the two lands according to the Palermo Stone existed two sets of kingdoms ne kingdom was in Lower Egypt called the Souls of Pe,and the other known as the Souls of Nekhen. You have the Badarian,Naquda I,II,III,Tasins. In the Lower region of Egypt you have the Merimada,Fayium,Maadi,El Omari,and others.

To the south you have the Khartoum Mesolithic,A-group Nubia which are all contemporary with Badarian culture. Also there exists a archeological site called Nabta Playa which contains cattle burials that reflect the Old Kingdom traditions of the significance of cattle in whorship. These populations come from the Central Sahara

Going to as far back as the Naquda II culture,Lower Egypt starts to adapt cultural traits from Upper Egyptians,such as pottery,whorship,and etc.

It should be noted though that the 1st dyansty pharoah of Menna married a person from the Delta to legitmize his title of ruler of Upper and Lower Egypt.
 

In regards to culture influence from Upper over Lower egypt, in Ancient times, do you know of evidence of this prior to 2000bc? Many of there gods, like neith are said to have their origins in the Lower Nile.
 

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

There is evidence that North African types as we know them today existed some 10,000 years ago, maybe as i believe from different migrations up and down the firtile crest over 10s of thousands of years. They dwelt mainly in the Lower Nile. Regardless of who began the Dynasties, the uper and Lower Nile were in contact, interacted and at an early period maybe even united.

So there were at least two distinct groups along the nile as far back as 10,000 years ago.

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That is the point I have been trying to make. It appears upper Egyptian rulers founded Egypt and united both the north and south yet lower Egyptians did make contributions in technology and trade. Even if they made no contributions at all, they were one nation of people, not duel nations.

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 26 October 2003).]
 

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Originally posted by Amun:
Lower Egypt has always been dominated by coastal North Africans and Arabs. The phenotypical contrast between north and south isn't due to invasion, its just due to steady immigration and assimilation.

[QUOTE]
The division of Egypt into south and north (upper and lower) may have reflected a conflict between African natives and Asiatic immigrants. The dangerous accentuation of geographic and ethnic differences was resolved for a time when Menes brought the "Two lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws that he claimed had been given to him by Thoth, and established the first historic dynasty.

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[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).][/QUOTE]

the info on that first link is extremely debateable. it's basically using the egypt has more in common with near east asia argument. on top of the fact that it's a biblical web site.

as far as the delta region, the asiatic mixture in that region is known, the percentage is not. what is known is that it was not as populated as upper egypt in dynastic times.

but i think the main issue here is that people can't get past the race issue here. it almost sounds like you're arguing that there was a strong asian (or maybe non-negro?) presence in lower egypt in dynastic times. there may well have been. i've never disputed that. and i'm also not saying that these supposed non-negroes were not egyptians. asian wanderers (who did not look like other egyptians to the south?) may have always existed there since pre-dynastic times. again, i've never argued this and i have no interest in trying to disprove it.

what i am saying is that the arab (muslims from arabia which indicates no racial identification) presence today that i see so much of in lower egypt today is probably not descended from dynastic egypt. i think they're presence in egypt basically begins with the arab invasions.

i know the asian presence grew since the decline of the middle kingdom, and exploded with the multiple conquests of asian civilizations. but the arab muslims were a distinct group.

i think too many people are trying to see this as a race issue and twisting my argument to say that lower egyptians aren't native egypt because they don't look like black people. i do believe that it is very debateable whether a large percentage of modern lower egyptians are descended from pharonic egypt, but not because of them not looking black. the respect (or lack thereof) arabs show to ancient egyptian practices should tell us something.
 

There was a strong non-African element in lower Egypt even prior to unification. To think anything otherwise is just speculation. It may have been a mix of coastal North African types with nomadic tribes from Palestine but the predynastic lower Egyptians were found to be culturally and phenotypically differnt from upper Egyptians. However, the cultural differences for the most part disappeared after unification in 3000 B.C.. The next major migration from the Near East into lower Egypt happened during the Second Intermediate period but records show that these immigrants, even the Hyksos, adopted Egyptian culture.
The Ramsesside family of 19th dynasty came from the Nile Delta near the Hyksos capital of Avaris and could very well have been descendants of the Hyksos. Most of those Asiatic migrants DID assimilate and become Egyptians. The point I'm making is that just because lower Egyptians may not all descend from the upper Egyptian founders of Egypt doesn't mean they can't claim to be descendants of the Kemites. It's especially wrong when you condiser how far back Asiatc settlements in Egypt go.
 

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Originally posted by Amun:
Kem-Au,

There was a strong non-African element in lower Egypt even prior to unification. To think anything otherwise is just speculation. It may have been a mix of coastal North African types with nomadic tribes from Palestine but the predynastic lower Egyptians were found to be culturally and phenotypically differnt from upper Egyptians. However, the cultural differences for the most part disappeared after unification in 3000 B.C.. The next major migration from the Near East into lower Egypt happened during the Second Intermediate period but records show that these immigrants, even the Hyksos, adopted Egyptian culture.
The Ramsesside family of 19th dynasty came from the Nile Delta near the Hyksos capital of Avaris and could very well have been descendants of the Hyksos. Most of those Asiatic migrants DID assimilate and become Egyptians. The point I'm making is that just because lower Egyptians may not all descend from the upper Egyptian founders of Egypt doesn't mean they can't claim to be descendants of the Kemites. It's especially wrong when you condiser how far back Asiatc settlements in Egypt go.

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and again, we are not arguing the same points. my original point was that many lower egyptians are probably descended from arabs from various parts of southwest asia who entered egypt after the mid 7th century. and not descended from kemites from pharonic egypt, regardless of their ethnicity.

any asians who took on kemite ways were probably expelled (or enslaved) by the arabs from lower egypt just like any native africans would've been.

i think the confusion is that you're linking modern day arabs to the asian presence in kemet. i'm not. i'm saying that the arabs who occupy much of lower egypt now are not the same people as the asians who lived in pharonic egypt.
 

Its just a thought, but as this topic is not going to go away, and maybe it shouldnt, so should we keep a thread open with the topic, and leave it out of others if we can help it. If it relates to another topic it can be refered to that topic but remain in this or a simular one. Just a thought to keep it in check. We all have POVS but maybe it does not belong in some topics but it does in others.

Thoughts???
 

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
and again, we are not arguing the same points. my original point was that many lower egyptians are probably descended from arabs from various parts of southwest asia who entered egypt after the mid 7th century. and not descended from kemites from pharonic egypt, regardless of their ethnicity.

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This is true for some parts of lower Egypt, especially the metropolitan areas like Cairo and Alexandria, but there are villages which haven't been affected by foriegnors over many centuries. There has always been a slow but steady migration of people from the Near East into Egypt. These migrants don't seem to have affected the population outside the cities.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

any asians who took on kemite ways were probably expelled (or enslaved) by the arabs from lower egypt just like any native africans would've been.

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This is speculation. The Arabs who invaded in the 7th century AD were small in number and faced some but not much resistance from the natives who were happy to have anyone but the Romans in power. You make it seem like it was coloniztion as opposed to an invasion. Arabic wasn’t even widely spoken in Egypt until several centuries later.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

i think the confusion is that you're linking modern day arabs to the asian presence in kemet. i'm not. i'm saying that the arabs who occupy much of lower egypt now are not the same people as the asians who lived in pharonic egypt.

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I agree but I'm saying that the Arabs who occupy Egypt are a minority and for the most part, don't claim ancient Egyptian ancestry anyway. There are many in the cities who mixed with Europeans and Arabs if that's what you are referring to when you speak of those who look Arab but even those who are mixed often maintain some of the distinctive Egyptian phenotypes like wide noses and kinky hair.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 27 October 2003).]
 

This is very interessant album with some photos of fellaheen from the middle Egypt,
some of them have probably certain black admixture, but majority have relatively strong mediterrean appearance. So,they are a kind of "missing link" between light lower Egyptias from the North which are similar to Syrians or Palestines and dark-skinned upper Egyptians which have relatively distinct negroid admixture.Personally,I think that they are most similar to original Arabs like Saudis or Yemenis.
 

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
http://www.ifad.org/photo/region/PN/EG.htm

This is very interessant album with some photos of fellaheen from the middle Egypt,
some of them have probably certain black admixture, but majority have relatively strong mediterrean appearance. So,they are a kind of "missing link" between light lower Egyptias from the North which are similar to Syrians or Palestines and dark-skinned upper Egyptians which have relatively distinct negroid admixture.Personally,I think that they are most similar to original Arabs like Saudis or Yemenis.

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I think Egyptians are the most misrepresented people on this earth. I guess since the big cities like Cairo are mostly the arab phenotype and they are the ones with money, they can afford travel and get outside of egypt more than the other areas. But why is it that their government and the US government want to paint that whole population as white? Egypt is definitely one country that I will visit very soon. I would like to form an unbiased first hand opinion of the country myself.

Can anyone tell me how are egyptians towards foreigners? Would me (black) and my girlfreind (white) have any problems? I know race is not a big issue amongst egyptians but how is their perception of race when it comes to foreigners.
 

Jah luv
 

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Keino,I don't think you would have any problem with visiting Egypt with a white girlfriend. You might have some difficuluty if you are an American,but not because of having a white girlfriend.

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.

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So it sounds like an American will have to try to blend in as much as possible. Will an American have problems in both upper and lower egypt? I remember you saying upper egyptians were very friendly people.
 

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Keino, I take it you didnt agree with the description given to the last set of photos.

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Not at all, the pictures were very nice! Present day egyptian are a very diverse phenotype just as america is today. Many of those people look either indian or biracial which in america "biracial" would be considered as "black". But that's not my point. I was just saying how in the main stream media and even with the "richer" egyptians we see today (ones that can afford to travel and are more likely of "arab" phenotype because the have more money) represent only a small part of the phenotype that exists in that country. Saying that all egyptians are white or black or arab is ludicrous and is equivelant to saying that all americans are black. I don't understand how the Egyptian government as well as america "bleach" the whole country and say that all egyptians are "white". Why is that? What is the purpose?

The scenario kind reminds me of my Vietmanese friend. When she came to America she only saw black people for the first day and she thought that america was made up of only black people. How funny right?! It wasn't until she moved outside of the urban areas during the following days that she saw the plethra of phenotypes in america.
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Keino,I don't think you would have any problem with visiting Egypt with a white girlfriend. You might have some difficuluty if you are an American,but not because of having a white girlfriend.

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.

---

I am not American, but I am from the West Indies. I would love to visit and get the real native experience, but I my girlfriend felt that she would stand out like a sore thumb and draw unwanted attention because she is American especially in these times of war. Several times I have been mistaken for Ethiopian and I have no idea why.

I have heard of the horror stories of American women being harrassed in many muslim countries even when they are dressed appropriately. I think they have a view of Americans being freaky and loose women because of the horrible, one dimentional view they get from the media.

How are the laws concerning sharing housing and beng unmarried? Is that a No-No in Egypt?
 

Keino, you can look there and if you will search keywords Sinai, you will see that original Arabs from Arabia are not so "white" how you think that they are.The people from Syria,Libanon and Palestina are probably most light Arabs which I see.These have not "white" skin.
 

In Muslim Asia we experience what many Americans would come accross in other countries, as Australians and Spanish are not the most welcome nations In Indonesia, Malasia, Timor etc.

With two young children we have been pulled up at gun point, had men touch my wife and my children, mostly out of couriosity more than molestation, and numurouse other situations. My wife is dark but my Daughter is Blond and very light skinned, she has been the object of couriosity many times. She got so used to people touching her hair and her face she is no longer fased by it.

The thing that has worked for us were ever we have gone is "when in Rome do as the romans do". I think you will find that the touching thing is more often harmless untill a big deal is made of it. Its usualy the hair, hands and the face. But having never been to Egypt I am only projecting my experiences on the people who live there and I may be wrong.

Keino, Egypt follow's the Sharia law which is set by the Quran. Having pre-martial sex in Egypt is totally ''haram''[forbidden] Women in villages usually get floggings with bamboo if this rule is broken. However,Egyptian being very liberal,I am sure pre-martial sex happens all the time without following the Sharia law. As far as know Egypt does not honor livin relationships,but I am sure they do happen in the city of Cairo.

However,some blondes do exist in Egypt,but this is only because of rape by Napolean's troops. This is mainly in Masnoura[Lower Egypt],so even there they are in great minority.

Anyway,Ayazid I believe the original Arabs came from Yemeni culture known as ther Himyar. However,there is some evidence that possibly Africans brought the Semetic language across the Red Sea;as opposed to Semites bringing Semetic to Africans across the Red Sea from the ''Middle East''

Christopher Ehret,leading linguist at UCLA, seems to agree that the Semetic brach broke off from the Ethiopian highlands possibly bringing it into parts of Southern Yemen where it brached off. Some linguist believe that possibly Semetic was a early break off language that diversified being adapted by various different people. So we will not know this for sure untill a comprehensive reconstruction of Afro-Asiatic is done from Ormotic to Semetic to the know extinct ancient Egyptian language.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Keino, Egypt follow's the Sharia law which is set by the Quran. Having pre-martial sex in Egypt is totally ''haram''[forbidden] Women in villages usually get floggings with bamboo if this rule is broken. However,Egyptian being very liberal,I am sure pre-martial sex happens all the time without following the Sharia law. As far as know Egypt does not honor livin relationships,but I am sure they do happen in the city of Cairo.

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interesting considering how sexually liberal the ancient egyptians were.
 

I think that Gamal Abdannasser was not erent from average Egyptians.
 

Actually,Nasser was very different than the average Egyptian because his heritage was mostly Arab. I believe Nasser mother came from El Minya. It was his nose that set him apart;not really his phenotype.

Plus those so called Bedouins you see have mixed with African slaves that were brought there many years ago in the Arab slave trade.

 

quote:

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The Question of Race in ancient Egypt
A disputed terrain

The human catastrophe of early modern slavery juxtaposed west and central Africans with northwest Europeans in the Americas. Out of this genocidal experience, race has become a dominant category for uniting and dividing people in modernity. Within the race debate, ancient Egypt has become a terrain contested by three mutually exclusive views:

modern Egyptian: the ancient Egyptians are the same group of people as the modern Egyptians
Afrocentric: the ancient Egyptians were black Africans, displaced by later movements of peoples, for example the Macedonian, Roman and Arab conquests
Eurocentric: the ancient Egyptians are ancestral to modern Europe
Sources

1. Human remains: The direct evidence for debating the question is the ancient population as it survives in human remains. There are two dominant problems:

published physical anthropological study of groups remains astonishingly rare, with most attention going to studies of a single individual
objectivity remains elusive within the race debate, and is perhaps impossible
The contributions by Keita are outstanding exceptions to the general lack of both demographic study and objectivity (Keita 1990; Keita 1992). DNA research is expected to transform this debate, though self-critical consciousness is not always displayed by proponents.

2. Material culture: Archaeology also provides evidence for supraregional groupings of peoples, by revealing which areas shared, and which areas differed in, material culture: however, modernity abounds in examples of shared material culture exported across cultural divides (for example, cans of North American soft drinks in the Arab world).

3. Language groups: Another broad category of evidence is language: here again, though, the modern world illustrates the use of the same language across different groupings.

A social constructivist might conclude that ethnicity is, like everything else in human societies, a socially agreed category combining geographical and historical origins. An Afrocentric historian might reply that such an attitude amounts to a European strategy to defuse the issue of race, now that it undermines as much as reinforces European and North American domination. The terrain is still contested.

An ancient Egyptian view on race?

The question of race can be approached from another vantage-point: how did the ancient Egyptians group human beings? For this question, there are more diverse published sources, including pictorial and written.

Pictorial sources: differences in depicting peoples include differences in

skin colour
facial features
hair
costume
material culture (tools, weapons, other artificial products)
Substantive differences can only be verified from observation of the original, or from good photographic reproductions; an Egyptological publication may assert clear differences in skin colour and facial features, where the original depiction is not clear or reveals no difference. The various types of difference may be borne out in the archaeological record. Examples on this website include:

distinctive treatment of hair and different material culture and burial customs revealed in 'Pan Grave burials' of the Second Intermediate Period
the blonde hair and burnt groups found by Petrie at the New Kingdom palace town at Gurob
different pottery traditions between local (Nubian) and intrusive (Egyptian), among finds from the Egyptian smelting colony at Buhen in Nubia, Old Kingdom

Written sources: in their writing, people (at least the writers) may define themselves or others as the same or different. Written sources for the ancient Egyptian categories include references to foreign lands (see on this website the translation of the Hymns to Senusret III) and lists of words for types of people (see on this website the page on the Onomasticon of Amenemipet, from the late New Kingdom, after 1300 BC). The Great Hymn to the Sun, from the reign of Akhenaten, ascribes differences in skin colour and language to the will of the creator, in a divine impetus towards diversity as an expression of creation. In these sources, there is, though, no ancient Egyptian definition of Egyptianness: in the Prophecy of Neferty (a literary composition, probably of the Middle Kingdom), Egypt seems to be defined in contrast to the Asiatics encroaching on the eastern fringes of the Delta, but this is a central motif of the composition, and therefore it is too closely tied to its context to be able to provide a more generally applicable definition.

Together, the pictorial and written sources indicate most often four broad divisions of human beings, as in the Underworld Books (in tombs of kings in the New Kingdom):

Egyptians
those living to the south (Nubians and others)
those living to the west (western nomads, 'Libyans' in the sense of anyone living west of the Nile and south of the Mediterranean)
those living to the east (Asiatics)
Rarer references to peoples from the north include, from the Middle Kingdom, the Keftiu (Minoans from Crete), and from the New Kingdom the Mycenaeans (from mainland Greece) and the Hittites (from the central and eastern part of modern-day Turkey). At the end of the New Kingdom, other peoples of the north appear, sometimes called 'peoples of the sea' or 'in their islands', with distinctive costume and headgear; they have been identified in some studies as Aegean island and coastal groups emerging at the breakdown of the Hittite Empire. See foreign contacts.

A definition of 'ancient Egyptian' in an ancient Greek tale

The fifth century BC Greek writer Herodotus records a legal dispute that provides one definition of Egyptian identity: a community on the western Delta fringes argued that it should not pay tax, because it was outside Egypt, but the oracle consulted in the case gave the answer that all who drank of the Nile north of Elephantine were Egyptians (Herodotus Book II, 18).

Two features set Elephantine as a natural southern border for this Nile Valley Egypt:

communications: travelling south from the Mediterranean, Elephantine heralds the first group of rocks impeding river travel (the First Cataract in the Nile Valley), and so it presents a natural communications border to the area of relatively free travel
linguistic: the area was unified by one language, Egyptian

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This posting is typical of the subsequent postings following my initial one. It reveals the sheer ignorance and arrogance on the subject matter! It also reveals a rationale which, in order to deny reality, seeks to debate the messenger(me) and not the message(from the Ancient Egyptians themselves.) It is not MY description of the mural! It is the Ancient Egyptians' own description! Faithful information?? No Egyptologist, anywhere, would deby the accuracy of my translation of the words on the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races.'

The Ancient Egyptians, ultimately, have the final say as to who they were as a people, so debate them!

This posting is typical of the subsequent postings following my initial one. It reveals the sheer ignorance and arrogance on the subject matter! It also reveals a rationale which, in order to deny reality, seeks to debate the messenger(me) and not the message(from the Ancient Egyptians themselves.) It is not MY description of the mural! It is the Ancient Egyptians' own description! Faithful information?? No Egyptologist, anywhere would debate the accuracy of my translation of the words on the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races.'

The Ancient Egyptians, ultimately, have the final say as to who they were as a people, so debate them!

You said your mother is from Lower Egypt,but is your father from Upper Egypt? If so which part is he from?

I am glad you introduced yourself and you being an Egyptian I hope you will explore deeper in your past than what is premitted in modern Egypt. A good reserch project for you if you can do is document customs,rituals,and traditions in both the balady neighboorhoods and in rural villages in Upper and Lower Egypt that go back in deep antiquity.

Welcome to the messageboard. Feel free to ask me any questions you wish.

Sounds like your father is probally from somewhere near El Minya. People in this region,although not technically Sa3eadi,still pocess many customs of the ancient Egyptians. A British anthropologist named Winfried S.Blackman did a book called the Fellahin of Upper Egypt documenting the customs that still persists in this region.

Very interesting article ...

Re;

1. Where the Upper and lower Egyptian kingdoms started.

2. By whom they were started (what people).

3. When they migrated there.

4. Where they migrated from.

5. What influences (Technology) they brought with them.

6 What customes they adopted from natives.

And anything else you can add.

This is not to start another debate, I would just like to know what conclusions you have come to, and how.

Ozzy

 

I cited archeological evidence found over the years that clearly demonstrated that Egyptians in Upper Egypt were ethnically African. Could you tell me some cultural traits that ancient Egyptian soceity had with Western Asia besides a ''supposed' genetic connection?

If Egyptians were like other Medditerean people then why are their culture so much matriarhical compared to patriarhical? Remeber also that prior to the Myceanns in Greece you had Minoans that were probally not ethnically like Greeks.

Be careful how you use sub-Saharan because this did not exist dduring the Neolithic times when the Sahara was more moist. Most of the Sahara during the Neolithic times was black with some costal Maghrebian elements. The culture of ther Central Sahara had a complex burial rituals and mummified their dead.

Tell me also if female circumscision is praticed by either Near Eastern or Medditerean people. This is praticed in rural Egyptian villages and Strabo pointed out that this was a common pratice. Both Christains and Muslims in Egypt do it.

Physical anthropology or Biological Anthropology (Foresic Anthrology)

Other disciplines in physical anthropology: genetics, human growth and development, primatology (study of primates), paleoanthropology (primate and human evolution), human osteology (study of the skeleton), paleodemography (vital statistics of past populations), skeletal biology, nutrition, dental anthropology, human adaptation and variation to different climates, altitudes, etc

Archaeology

Cultural Anthropology

Linguistic anthropology

My questions are directed at those that are not addressed in your refered reports. I am sure you would have come to some conclusion regarding the areas I have mentioned.

It is widely agreed by Anthropoligists that any conclusion based on only one of these areas which conflicts with one or more others is to be considered flawed. I am simply interested to know the range and supporting evidance in these other areas for the Mediterranean origin.

Ozzy
 

quote:

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As a history professor I am always sceptical about anything old. You really have to be for a variety of reasons. For example, we draw conclusions from the Armarna period that may be miles from reality. We draw the conclusions based on the facts we have but we just don't have nearly enough. We have serious accuracy problems with events two or three centuries ago much less two or three thousand years ago.

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This part I agree with. (although I don't believe you're always skeptical, in my opinion you are just as biased as Wally)
 

The same report you stated where mummies had no negriod hair agreed that traces of negriod hair was prevelent in pre-dyanstic Badarian burials. You have not conclusively proven any of your points,but have kept reffering to obscure references. You never even took the time to read the texts you are quoting from.

refute this:
same study you refer calls Upper Egyptian pre-dyanstic hair negriod

With the aim of elucidating the question of the morphological
character of the Badarians,I studied both Badarian series,the first
one in Duckworth Laboratory at Cambrige[53 skulls]and the second one
in the Insitute of Anatomyat Kasr El-Aini,Unversity of Cairo[64
skulls],making a total of 117 skulls of adult and juvenile
individuals.

Of the total of 117 skulls,15 were found to be markedly Europoid,9
of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type.....6 were of very
robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cro-Magnoid type.
Eight skulls were clearly negriod........and were close to the Negro
types occuring in East Africa. The majority of 94 skulls showed mixed
Europoid-Negriod features in different combinations and with
different shares of both components,either well balanced or with
characters of the neautral range,common to both racial groups. We may
conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same,with
some overweight to the Europoid side.

In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved,thanks to good
conditions in the desert sand. In the first series ,according to the
description of the excavators,they were curly in 6 cases,wavy in 33
cases,straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples ,dark brown
in 11,brown in 12,light brown in ,and gray in 11 cases.......

I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian
indivduals which were macroscopically
curly[spirals of 10-20mm in diameter]or wavy in [25-35 mm]. They were
studied microscopically by S. Tittlebacchova from the Institute of
Anthropology of the Charles Unversity,who found in five out of seven
samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its
length ,sometimes with simultaneous narrowing of the hair pitch. The
outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened ,with
indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show Negriod
influence among the Badarians.
{Thus] the Negriod component amung the Badarians is anthropologically
well based. Even though the share of ''pure'' Negores is small[6.8
percent],being half that of Europoid forms[12.9 percent],the hig
majority of mixed forms [80.3 percent] suggest a long-lasting
dispersion of Negriod genes in the population. It can be interpreted
by the supposition that the mixture of both components began many
generations previously.....

We still donot know exactly when neolithic farmers first settled in
the Nile Valley,nor from whence they came. A date in the sixth
millennium B.C. is most likley the sources of the settlement may
probally be found in the eastern Mediterraneanarea. At the same
period,however,with the begginings of the Makalian wet phases ,the
Niegro populations of the Sudanic savannah belt would have started
its movement towards the north,into Saharan latitudes,which then,for
the last time became open to human occupation. Maybe some of these
emigrant groups penetrated down the Nile as far as Upper Egypt,thus
providing one of the oldest known biological contacts between
Negriods and Europoids,the ultimate evidence of which appears some
1,000-1,500 years later in skeletons preserved in the Badarian
cemetaries.
In this connection,we have to mention the Egyptologist have found
in Badarian and other pre-dyanstic cultures of Upper Egypt some
materials and idelogical evidence of southern or Sudanic African
elements. The Badarian pottery is connected with the pottery of the
Khartoumn neolithic culture,which originated probally from cermacis
of the early Khartoumn culture. Some authors postulate the direct
derivation of Badarian pottery from the Khartoumn neolithic pottery.
While in Egypt pottery of this type was later replaced by other
ceramic forms,often under the influence of the Middle East,in the
Sudan this arhaic pottery persisted flor along time,and was form
there later introduced on several occasions by southern immigrants
into Nubia and even[though in small quanities] into Egypt. Fishing
hooks were also found in Badari ,typologically similar to Khartoumn
neolithic hooks,but more developed,and therefore pobally younger. To
this connection between the Khartoumn neolithic and Badarian cultures
it is necessary to add that,according to present--unfortunatley still
very poor----evidence,the population of the Khartoumn neolithic was
negriod.
Badarian flint instruments are of suprisingly poor quality. They
were made from free-lying boulders,regardless of the fact that in the
living area of the Badarians plenty of superb flints could have been
collected from limestone layers. This provides an argument for the
arrival of Badarian people from area lacking limestones with flints
e.g.,from more southern areas ,where,starting with 25 degrees N.
latitude in the Eastern Desert and Esna in the Nile Valley,the
limestone relief comes o an end.

In some of the BAdarian graves,conical buttons made from fine
polished cermaics were found which were probally worn in the earlobes
or in the nasal wings.......The custom of wearing ornaments in the
nose or ears can be considered in this region also being of African
origin.
In the pre-dyanstic cultures of Upper Egypt Alderd found evidence
of the cult of ceslsetial and astral deities ,as well as of the idea
of the leader]later deified king],and the ''rainmaker''. This is also
an old African conception ,which may be connected with the original
home of the Upper Egyptian populations [or part of it] in a region
dependking motr on rainfall than on the Nile floods. Ritual killing
of the leaders in the time of their deceased strength,known also from
predyanstic Egypt,has analogies in the historic and even in the
recent Sudan.
Source: Eugen Strouhal,''Evidence of the Early Penetration of Negroes
into Prehistoric Egypt,'' Journal of African History [1971],12[1]:4-7
[extracts;footnotes omitted].

quote:

---

was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian
indivduals which were macroscopically
curly[spirals of 10-20mm in diameter]or wavy in [25-35 mm]. They were
studied microscopically by S. Tittlebacchova from the Institute of
Anthropology of the Charles Unversity,who found in five out of seven
samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its
length ,sometimes with simultaneous narrowing of the hair pitch. The
outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened ,with
indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show Negriod
influence among the Badarians.
{Thus] the Negriod component amung the Badarians is anthropologically
well based.

---

Also you fail to realize that physical apperance of mummy hair does not tell somebody's race.You have to place them under microscopic observation to truly know. Some hair textures amung modern Nubians and beja people would show up a caucasoid because of their wavy texture;yet their hair is wavy and thick. Caucasoid hair is wavy and fine and poceeses a greater diameter.

PS: One of my best friends and Monash University, has informed me, as I have mentioned before, that a large percentage of USA school texts contain outdated data, some as much as 20 years and more, hence withdrawal from many western countries Universities. Considering you do not trust old data you may wish to check the references.

If you would like to know the resources used by other countries i would be pleased to ask for a list. My freind has great resources. He is the one who sent me the single pdf file that all your references (quotes)come from.

Ozzy

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
post

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I have never heard any recent history books refering to AE as western civilization. I my western civilization course in undergrad my professors never once mentioned Egypt unless they were talking about the exchanges that went on between Africa and Europe. Infact one of them (he was very pompus and arrogant and "very eurocentric") Downplayed everything that had to do with Africa inculding Egypt and basically infered that Western Civilization was supreme. I'm sure there are some fringe groupes who claim that AE was a western civilization, but in my readings Africa is rarely mentioned in western civilization except with imperialism....
 

quote:

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Everywhere we dig in the Delta we find Minoan and Myceane pottery and Frescos. We have evidence now of an early and continous trade between mesopotamia and AE through the Wadi near Thebes.

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....and? No one is disputing that.

While it is true that Egypt and Nubia are sometimes considered part of the Near East that still doesn't make (Ancient) Egypt "Western". The great civilizations of Egypt and Mesopotamia made great contributions to Western Civilization, but neither were Western Civilizations.
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Marcus:
....and? No one is disputing that.

While it is true that Egypt and Nubia are sometimes considered part of the Near East that still doesn't make (Ancient) Egypt "Western". The great civilizations of Egypt and Mesopotamia made great [b]contributions to Western Civilization, but neither were Western Civilizations. [/B]

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That's interesting. Most western history courses (ones that I have had and books that I've read) greatly downplay the contributions of Egypt to the Greeko-roman empire and "western civilization".

 

The history courses I took focussed on the significant contributions to western civilization of the classical civilizations Egypt, Mesopotamia, Rome, Greece, and - believe it or not - Kush. But I guess it's different in the US. Sorry for the confusion.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 20 February 2004).]
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Keino, if you walk into any college book store in America and look at their basic western civ book you will find they start with AE and mesopotamia. Trust me on this...its a fact. That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be.

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Exactly, Read a non US publication and see what you find. Hence the withdrawal of US publications in this feild and many others from other western countries education systems.

Then go to the back and read the references of the US publications. you will find the same resources in the new publication as the ones published 15 to 20 years ago. This is why your comment is so true

"That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be".

Ozzy

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Keino, if you walk into any college book store in America and look at their basic western civ book you will find they start with AE and mesopotamia. Trust me on this...its a fact. That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be.

---

To call Egypt a Western civ is a bit odd and believing that it is puts ypu in the same boat as Afrocentrics who quote books like "Black Athena". I live in the US yet I share the same view as Marcus that most courses on Western Civilization briefly touch on the contributions made by Egypt and and Mesopotamia but they aren't considered "Western." Seriously, what college level Western history class doesn't start with ancient Greece?

In the past, Egypt was considered exclusively a Near Eastern civ but in the past 30 years it has changed a bit. Most classes on early Near Eastern history will include Ancient Egypt. At the same time, any class on African history will include ancient Egypt. It's geographically correct because Egypt is both part of Africa and Asia. Just as it's geographically correct for the history of Turkey to overlap inbetween Western and Near Eastern history.

quote:

---

Originally posted by neo*geo:
To call Egypt a Western civ is a bit odd and believing that it is puts ypu in the same boat as Afrocentrics who quote books like "Black Athena".

---

Can you please expand on this. I don't see the connection.
 

I don't see how the Greek islands helped "advance" ancient Egypt when Egyptian society predates anything on the greek islands by a substantial amount of time?

Horemheb, I'm curious what do u teach about how the Greek islands "advance" ancient Egypt?

Black Athena is not an afrocentric book.

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 February 2004).]
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
AE could not have acomplished what it did had it been where Angola is today. It would not have had the cultural interaction with Mesopotamia and the greek Islands to advance.

---

I disagree. China had no advanced civilizations nearby yet they prospered. I'm sure the ancient Egyptians were influenced by Mesopotamians and vice versa but we're talking about two completely different cultures.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

The contributions of the Hyksos are a clear case in point but they are limitless.

---

While the contributions of the Hyksos were numerous and helped reinvent the Egyptians militarily, the Great Pyramids had already been built by the time they arrived. By this I mean most of the scientific advances created by Egyptians came during the Old Kingdom. Egyptians were very xenophobic so they allowed foriegnors to make only minor contributions to their culture. The Hyksos certainly contributed as did other people from Asia but fundamentally, Egypt remained African.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Obenga:

Black Athena is not an afrocentric book.

---

It is, actually.

quote:

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Originally posted by Marcus:
It is, actually.

---

Care to elaborate on this point marcus, how exactly is it an afrocentic book.

The title is a little provocative but needed to be to sell books. Bernal did not approve of the title it was forced upon him by the publisher.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Additionally, since the American higher educational system leads the world in all fields it is a little silly to say they are 20 years behind in any field.

---

Your kidding! You do read the national reports from your own United States Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, dont you?.

quote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:
Care to elaborate on this point marcus, how exactly is it an afrocentic book.

The title is a little provocative but needed to be to sell books. Bernal did not approve of the title it was forced upon him by the publisher.

---

I would like to read Mary Lefkowitz's book and compare it to the "afrocentric" books. What is a good book that you guys suggest reading? I have heard that Black Spark, White Fire is good....what do you guys think??

quote:

---

Originally written by Martin Bernal

Before going any further, I should like to look at what is meant by "Afrocentrism." As Mary Lefkowitz points out, the term was invented by Molefi Asante, who sees it as a way to escape Eurocentrism and its extensions, by looking at the world from an African standpoint. Since then, the label "Afrocentrist" has been attached to a number of intellectual positions ranging from "All good things come from Africa," or as Leonard Jeffries puts it: "Africa creates, Europe imitates," to those, among whom I see myself, who merely maintain that Africans and peoples of African descent have made many significant contributions to world progress and that for the past two centuries, these have been systematically played down by European and North American historians.

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[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Keino:
I would like to read Mary Lefkowitz's book and compare it to the "afrocentric" books. What is a good book that you guys suggest reading? I have heard that Black Spark, White Fire is good....what do you guys think??

---

I'd say Black Athena and Black Athena Writes Back.

If you don't consider these books to be Afrocentric then I guess you should pick up Black Spark, White Fire or Destruction of Black Civilization (by Chancellor Williams)

Personally, I don't like books that are specifically and exclusively written for African American audiences. The chapter "The Mulatto problem" in Destruction of Black Civilization is disturbing IMO.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]
 

You should read both Bernal's books and Leftowitz's books to understand her stance. She never denies the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians being Africa;however she cautions accusing the Greeks of stealing from the Kemetians. I disgaree with Leftowitz on many reguards in that ancient Kemetians never devised a philosophy prior to the Greeks. This is simply not true,and texts like the discussion between a man and his ba clearly demonstrate that philosophy was clearly in existence prior to the Greco-Roman period.

Bernal has never claimed all Egyptians were black nor does he claim this anywhere in his book. He believes,like most mainstream scholars,that Upper Egyptians were black;while Northern Egyptians were a mixture of various elements including Africans.

Matter of fact,Bernal believes it was the Hykos who were the Pelgisians that civlized the Greeks not the Egyptians. He does make some mention of the Greek pyramid in connection to Danos in the Illid. His contention is that Hykos passed their knowleadge from Kmt via into Greece.

Marcus said:
Personally, I don't like books that are specifically and exclusively written for African American audiences. The chapter "The Mulatto problem" in Destruction of Black Civilization is disturbing IMO.

Ausar responds: I will agree up to a certain extint. I think scholars like Diop who never proclaimed what Willams said get a bad name from these various scholars. You have to understand also reactionary people like Chancellor Willams comes from the past in academic racism that denied African people their proper place in world history.

The problem with Willams is not only his beliefs in reguard to ancient history,but also his methodology of reserch. Unlike Diop he never presents foot notes or references of where his material comes from.

I apologize if the discussion is starting to drift more in the matters oif politics rather than ancient Egypt. Sometimes politics is intertwined with history.

Richard Poe does not claim to be an Afrocentric. He simply gathers material from various fields that argue various points. Poe allows other to make up their mind for themselves.
 

On the other hand, I think books such as Black Athena should be based on archaeological evidence first and foremost. I found it to be lacking in that department.

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I think scholars like Diop who never proclaimed what Willams said get a bad name from these various scholars.

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I agree. Diop's work isn't feel-good literature exclusively written for African Americans, though. Neither is Shomarka Keita's work. I have nothing against Afrocentrism per se.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]
 

On the other hand, Lefkowitz did try to change history by claiming that Plato was not educated in KMT, when this was long held to be true. Bernal pointed out that is is the only person to say something like this. Her story is that the Greek terms were mistranslated. and that Plato was educated elsewhere.
 

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Originally posted by Marcus:

On the other hand, I think books such as Black Athena should be based on archaeological evidence first and foremost. I found it to be lacking in that department.

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He released a second volume that cited the archaeological evidence. It was always planned to be a multi volume set, though I have not read it.
 

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Originally posted by Marcus:
Thanks for the heads up, Kem. I didn't even know there was a second part, besides BA Writes Back (but I haven't read that one). I just assumed he never finished the series.

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Actually I don't think he finished the series. From what I understand he planned a 4 volume set, but after vol 2 the last thing he released was BA Writes Back. So he should have 2 more volumes to deliver. Perhaps he wasn't suspecting such a huge backlash.
 

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Your kidding! You do read the national reports from your own United States Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, dont you?.

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Ozzy, I thought about you when I went to the Brooklyn museum. When you first go into the Egyptian exibit, off to the right there is a big poster that say "Egypt in Africa". As you can probably guess, it deals with the early denial of the African heritage of Egypt, and that modern scholars are changing the commonly accepted views. It mentioned that people like Frederick Douglass and W.E.B. Du Bois were instumental in this reassessment of AE, but it did not mention Diop. This is strange because it did mention that the shift away from a non-African Egypt began in the 60's, which was a direct result of Diop's work, though admittedly he was not the first to note that AE was an African civilization.

The poster also mentioned the idea of an AE origin of West African civilizations. So American text books and pop culture may be behind the times, but at least the museums are getting their act together.
 

RE: Its bigger, faster, better and truer in the USA so therefore we must be right so whoo needs any new or outtside imput. That is a big generalisation, but I think you get the idea. Education systems are often the first o fall into the hole. Legal systems follow.

Hows the legal system over there LOL, only joking!

Ozzy

 

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 01 March 2004).]
 

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
When you first go into the Egyptian exibit, off to the right there is a big poster that say "Egypt in Africa". As you can probably guess, it deals with the early denial of the African heritage of Egypt, and that modern scholars are changing the commonly accepted views. It mentioned that people like Frederick Douglass and W.E.B. Du Bois were instumental in this reassessment of AE, but it did not mention Diop. This is strange because it did mention that the shift away from a non-African Egypt began in the 60's, which was a direct result of Diop's work, though admittedly he was not the first to note that AE was an African civilization.

The poster also mentioned the idea of an AE origin of West African civilizations. So American text books and pop culture may be behind the times, but at least the museums are getting their act together.

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[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 01 March 2004).]
 

it is what it is...

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Originally posted by egyptiangurl:
just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

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Originally posted by Cush_R:
Copt is not an ethnic group, it is sect of Christainty practised in Egypt, Ethiopia and Ertirea. Just cause you are born in Egypt does not mean you are the closest thing to Ancient Egyptian, hell you could be closer to the Romans or Greeks more than the Ancient Egyptians.

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Here is the CIA's ethnic description of modern Egypt:
Eastern Hamitic stock (Egyptians, Bedouins, and Berbers) 99%, Greek, Nubian, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%
C.I.A.-The World Factbook 2002; Egypt, People.

Please Note: Arabs & Bedouin are Semites, not Eastern Hamites. Berbers are Western Hamites. Nubians, like Ethiopians and Somalis are Eastern Hamites. The CIA is confused.

And this from a 1911 Encyclopedia! :

HAMITIC RACES AND LANGUAGES. The questions involved in a consideration of Hamitic races and Hamitic languages are independent of one another and call for separate treatment.
I. Hamitic Races.The term Hamitic as applied to race is not only extremely vague but has been much abused by anthropological writers. Of the few who have attempted a precise definition the most prominent is Sergi,i and his classification may be taken as representing one point of view with regard to this difficult question.

Sergi considers the Hamites, using the term in the racial sense, as a branch, of his Mediterranean Race; and divides them as follows:

1. Eastern Branch

(a) Ancient and Modern Egyptian (excluding the Arabs).

(b) Nubians, Beja.

(c) Abyssinians.

(d) Galla, Danakil, Somali.

1 G. Sergi, The Mediterranean Race. A Study of the Origin oJ European Peoples (London, 1901); idem, Africa, Antropologia della stirpe camitica (Turin, 1897).

(e) Masai.

(f) Wahuma or Watusi.

2. Northern Branch

(a) Berbers of the Mediterranean, Atlantic and Sahara.

(b) Tibbu.

(c) Fula.

(d) Guanches (extinct).

So according to Sergi, the Ancient and Modern Egyptian (excluding the Arabs), Nubians, Beja, Abyssinians (Ethiopians), Galla, Danakil, Somali belonged to the same racial grouping - like Swedes, Germans, Danes, etc. are Nordic peoples.

So whether or not we call them "Mediterranean Race" or "GoobleyGookins", everyone knows what these folks look like. What debate? What controversy??