quote:
Originally posted by Phacshuoal:
Greetings, I am hoping there are those among this Spiritually powerful forum who can enlighten me on the Egyptian Mysteries
System.
I'd like to learn a little more about this myself. I do know that this was a hotly debate issue when Martin Bernal's, Black Athena was getting headlines. Perhaps you should start there.
The black label can be decieveing an Bernal admits that he could have had the title African Athena as opposed to ''Black'' Athena. Bernal tend to favor Phonecian influce in ancient Greece as opposed to Egyptian-African influces.
The person who coined the phrase Afrocentric was Molefi Assante and not Martin Bernal. Martin Bernal previously was a scholar at Oxford University specilizing as a Sinologist. He might have been a little out of his league but he made some interesting arguments.
Like I said in my earlier post,Bernal deserves a critique in his work that is professional and not on a unprofessional crtique that much of Leftowitz did. Leftowitz herself admitted that Bernal's claims were legitmate,but she attacked unfounded scholars like Melanist and Leonard Jefferies and not Bernal.
Read Bernal Responds to hist Critics or Black Athena Writes Back. The debate is not fully over. It has only begun.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
The 'Black Athena' is not an academic study. It has been throughly discredited.
The many views in Black Athena Writes Back have been generally accepted since the Black Athena debate began.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
The black label can be decieveing an Bernal admits that he could have had the title African Athena as opposed to ''Black'' Athena.
Thought Writes:
Why do you think the Black label is decieving?
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
We simply have no room in academics for politics.
Thought Writes:
The question is, did modern academia evolve within a political millieu (Romanticism)that skewed evidence and espoused a Eurocentric version of history?
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
I have read all the literature invovled in the Black Athena debate. Martin Bernal has never once claimed to have been an Afrocentric nor endorses such thought.
Thought Writes:
The real question is are any two so-called "Afrocentricists" even the same in terms of ideaology? Or is the term "Afrocentric" a loaded slogan utilized to stifle openess and debate.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
He might have been a little out of his league but he made some interesting arguments.
Thought Writes:
Why do you feel he was out of his league?
I feel Bernal might be out of his league because he has no degree in classics nor any formal training in Afro-Asiatic linguistics. His specaility was Sinology which is Chinese history.
The fact you are a college professor means very little to me. When people make comments they see flaws in the argument but never point them out and then go on to exagerate by boisterous name calling means nothing.
Let me adress a few points:
1. I have never heard anybody not even exreme Afrocentric people ever describe Socrates as black. Looking at his picture and his description by one of his colleges leaves one to wonder if he was a native Athenian.
2. The Cleopatra claim comes from JA Rodgers from the 1930's. Rodgers made many claims that were not accurate and Leftowitz pointed this out. Sometimes people use this in a strawman to knock down the claims of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians. I am in agreeance that Cleopatra was not Egyptian and she belonged to a line of Macedonians. Macedonians usually inbreed with each other thus she could not have been Egyptian or Nubian.
3. The claim that Aristotle stole knowleadge from the Library from Alexzandria was claimed by George G.M. James in his book Stolen Legacy and not by Bernal.
4. Plato's visit to Egypt comes from another source in Strabo's writtings. We truly don't know what Plato absrobed from Egypt,but we do have a quote from Socrates himself that claims Egyptians were the first philsophers. Plato scrons the Hellenistic people for being such lazy people and talks highly of an Egyptian mathematical game. You can find this in Plato's book Laws.
5. Leftowitz's claims Egyptians had no philsophy outside of the Pyramid Texts. This is incorrect because Egyptians clearly had some vestiages of philsophy that can be seen in assorted wisdom texts including A dialogue with a man and his Ba. Leftowitz is ignorant of Egyptian texts. This is to be expected since her specialty is classics not Egyptology .
Horemheb,I don't agree with you acessment with Africa either. Many kingdom thrived even in the heart of Africa well before Europeans arrive. Western and Central Europeans comparied to many parts up to the Industrial Revolution was up to par. Sure there were areas in Africa that lagged behind but let's compare the Mediterrean European region to say the British Isles where most of Americans come from. You will see how much your opinions are distorted.
I can prove that Africans had sucessful economic systems and democracy well before Europeans arrived. One does not need to fabricate myths to do this but to show ''true'' African history that is not very well publicized.
Greco-Roman writers like Cicero went so far to call Northern and Western Europeans,particulary from Britian,''so stupid they were incapable of slaves''. Let imagine also that Aristotle when ranking people in the classical word also found the interior of European to be an abysmal wasteland. Muslims writers from the 7th century in Cordova Spain commented on how Slavic and Nordic Europeans never even bathed or washed themselves.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 24 May 2004).]
I am not sure about the Mystery system myself and I believe some of the concepts were incorporated into Egypt by Masonic teachings during the 19th century. It's doubtful priesthood training took 40 years since the life span of most Egyptians is not that long.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Thought,Bernal said himself that the ''black'' in Athena was never his idea. He argued for a black foundation for Egypt,but admitted that Lower Egyptians were much different from the people in the south. Infact read the first Chapter in Black Athena Writes back where he feels the people in Lower Egypt were close to Western Asian poeple. He quotes Keita as his source for this information.
Thought Writes:
The lower Egyptians may have been somewhat different from the people directly south of them, but that does not mean they were not Black. In addition, Angel long ago demonstrated that early some Western Asians and Europeans had affinites with tropical Africans.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
I feel Bernal might be out of his league because he has no degree in classics nor any formal training in Afro-Asiatic linguistics. His specaility was Sinology which is Chinese history.
Thought Writes:
As you stated to Horemheb, a degree means very little. It is the facts and evidence presented that should be the focus. Bernal is a very capable linguist and many of his theories in one manner or another are beginning to gain mainstream acceptance as demonstrated in the book "Ancient Egypt in Africa" by O'Conner and Reid.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
There is no Eurocentric version of history.
Thought Writes:
Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of "Western Civilization" which by its very nature equates to Eurocentrism.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Marry Leftowtiz is a classics teacher at Welseley Unversity.I am not sure about the Mystery system myself and I believe some of the concepts were incorporated into Egypt by Masonic teachings during the 19th century. It's doubtful priesthood training took 40 years since the life span of most Egyptians is not that long.
Thought Quotes:
Black Athena Writes Back
Martin Bernal
2001
Page 389
"If anything, the onus of proof should be on those who deny both the significance of these striking similarities between Egyptian and Greek mysteries and the widespread Ancient testimony that the latter had come from Egypt, rather than on those who are inclined to support traditions."
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
First of all only a fool would deny substantial African background in Ancient Egypt.
Horemheb,
Don't be so harsh on yourself.
[This message has been edited by blackman (edited 25 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by blackman:
Horemheb,
Don't be so harsh on yourself.
[This message has been edited by Phacshuoal (edited 25 May 2004).]
That would appear accurate, most Masons point it origins to an Ancient Egyptian Mystery system. George Washington was a mason, and on the back of One dollar bills, there is a symbol with an eye above a pyramid which is supposed to be some sign of a New World Order. Some have even claimed the the eye in the middle of the sun, is supposed to be a symbol of the Egypian Sun God. We do know that George Washington was a Mason. The mason supposedly worship the sun, moons, etc. although I'm not sure of this its only heresy.
Do you question how Europe went from being a resourceless, backward, starving, disease ridden and destitute subcontinent to commandeering most of the world's wealth while Afrika went from being the cradle of civilization with most of the gold, rich lands and mineral resources to being a vast expanse of arrested social and technological development?
Can you even began to grasp the correlation between European military and political ascendancy, its wealth and Afrika subjugation. We've been duped into believing Europeans have a higher standard of living because they are smarter and work harder; rather than realizing Europeans (Western Society) are where they are today because of their history of covetousness, imperialism, larceny and rapine. The so called age of exploration wasn't a time of scientific investigation, mutually beneficial, ethnic, racial and cultural relations or exchange. The whites made out like the bandits they were/are.
The military power (imperialism) Europeans possessed in comparison to the Africans was the only thing superior. The bow and arrow was definitely no match to the cannon ball. Imperialism and Colonialism created wealth generating opportunities and improved the quality of life throughout Europe while simultaneously introducing disease, social disruption, death, ecological and trade unbalances everywhere they set foot on planet earth. This was true no matter which European nation was involved. Not to mention how the whites forced or attempted to force the indigenous inhabitants of the lands they invaded or the millions they kidnaped or bartered for around the globe to work for little or nothing to enrich the mother countries.
This type of "white supremacist" attitude is what continues to blind people from realities. Africa was flourishing while Europe was still in the Dark Ages.
Thank heavens, the world can witness the destructive imperialistic nature of the Europeans in a modern sense, in how they are destroying Iraq,(which is only one country, mind you) in order to control the oil. This same evil was imposed on Africa continent wide.
Why dont you discuss how the Berlin Conference of 1884 in which 14 European nation states including the United States sat around a large table and carved up the continent conspiring to shanghai its riches, its natural and human resources and plotting to appropriate them for their benefit.
Lets not pretend that colonialism was to benefit "civilize" the Africans. Show it for what it really was.
"Africa accounts for a significant proportion of U.S. imports-100% of industrial diamonds; 58% of uranium;48% of cocoa; 44% of manganese used in producing steel, 40% of antimony to harden metals; 39% of platinum, 36% of cobalt for jet engines and high strength alloys, 33% of petroleum, 30% of beryl used in weapons and nuclear reactors, 23% of chromite used in gun barrels, 21 % columbium-tantalum for heat resisting alloys in missiles and rockets and 21% of coffee," from Imperialism and Dependency Obstacles to African Development.by Daniel A. Offiong
And all of this was controlled by Apartheid WHITE South Africans who still in modern times oppressed the Black south Africans.
Your type of "white supremacist" attidude that you biasly spread, is the main purpose we need to spread "Afrocenticism". And please believe me when I tell you, that people like myself with be at the forefront of this movement.
quote:
Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
[b]Africa today is the most poverty stricken, education deficient, aids infested area of the world. It continues to fall further and further behind the first world nations with little if any imaginable way of catching up.Do you question how Europe went from being a resourceless, backward, starving, disease ridden and destitute subcontinent to commandeering most of the world's wealth while Afrika went from being the cradle of civilization with most of the gold, rich lands and mineral resources to being a vast expanse of arrested social and technological development?
Can you even began to grasp the correlation between European military and political ascendancy, its wealth and Afrika subjugation. We've been duped into believing Europeans have a higher standard of living because they are smarter and work harder; rather than realizing Europeans (Western Society) are where they are today because of their history of covetousness, imperialism, larceny and rapine. The so called age of exploration wasn't a time of scientific investigation, mutually beneficial, ethnic, racial and cultural relations or exchange. The whites made out like the bandits they were/are.
The military power (imperialism) Europeans possessed in comparison to the Africans was the only thing superior. The bow and arrow was definitely no match to the cannon ball. Imperialism and Colonialism created wealth generating opportunities and improved the quality of life throughout Europe while simultaneously introducing disease, social disruption, death, ecological and trade unbalances everywhere they set foot on planet earth. This was true no matter which European nation was involved. Not to mention how the whites forced or attempted to force the indigenous inhabitants of the lands they invaded or the millions they kidnaped or bartered for around the globe to work for little or nothing to enrich the mother countries.
This type of "white supremacist" attitude is what continues to blind people from realities. Africa was flourishing while Europe was still in the Dark Ages.
Thank heavens, the world can witness the destructive imperialistic nature of the Europeans in a modern sense, in how they are destroying Iraq,(which is only one country, mind you) in order to control the oil. This same evil was imposed on Africa continent wide.
Why dont you discuss how the Berlin Conference of 1884 in which 14 European nation states including the United States sat around a large table and carved up the continent conspiring to shanghai its riches, its natural and human resources and plotting to appropriate them for their benefit.
Lets not pretend that colonialism was to benefit "civilize" the Africans. Show it for what it really was.
"Africa accounts for a significant proportion of U.S. imports-100% of industrial diamonds; 58% of uranium;48% of cocoa; 44% of manganese used in producing steel, 40% of antimony to harden metals; 39% of platinum, 36% of cobalt for jet engines and high strength alloys, 33% of petroleum, 30% of beryl used in weapons and nuclear reactors, 23% of chromite used in gun barrels, 21 % columbium-tantalum for heat resisting alloys in missiles and rockets and 21% of coffee," from Imperialism and Dependency Obstacles to African Development.by Daniel A. Offiong
And all of this was controlled by Apartheid WHITE South Africans who still in modern times oppressed the Black south Africans.
Your type of "white supremacist" attidude that you biasly spread, is the main purpose we need to spread "Afrocenticism". And please believe me when I tell you, that people like myself with be at the forefront of this movement.[/B]
Jus tha Phacz and nuthin but tha phacz, Great post Homeylu.
Out of my head ...
Jump on me for sources ...
In AE ...
- There was a variety of different kinds of priests, each having a different specialty.
(Remember, "church & state" were not divided. Further, priests were considered extention of the pharaoh, a little like the Roman Catholic pope today.)
- Some priestly positions were passed down through families, and so training would have begun for those from early childhood.
- Some priestly positions were quite honestly part time. There are a kazillion cross-referenced accounts this - 4 month stints; 1 season per "shift" - 2 seasons off.
The original question could refer to either secret initiatory societies OR magics. I will respond to the former. First, at least.
The Masons ...
Do not realisticly think that their magic is based in Egyptian "stuff".
By the time the Masons came into existance, Egypt was Moslem. Obviously, the hieroglyphic language was lost - and nobody even knew for sure what the pyramids were all about. Masonic "stuff" comes out of the Greek mysticism in fact, with a dash of Kabbala. Whatever the Greeks had written was what the Masons extrapolated from. As an example of what I mean, you can tell their roots by their treatment of the 4 quarters, and their usage of the Arch Angels (VERY busy, those four, since they are used in the mystical systems of all the "peoples of the Book" ... ya know, Raphie, Mickie, Uri & Gab?) ...
Masons were born of the crusades, people!!!
Masons do not worship "the sun and the moon", as such. To be a Mason is to believe that there is one omnipotent God ... but who the individual Mason decides that omnipotent One is, and how many layers of divinity lie between "it" and us is not dictated. Therefore, people from every religion in the world can in fact be a Mason.
Historically, the Masons were impressed with certain honestly Egyptian "amulets of power", like composition right angles and plummets. And they liked that Eye of Heru, too! They built up a truly beautiful philosophy surrounding it all - which had nothing to do with Egyptian philosophy, for the reasons stated above. (For good pictures of the right angle & plummet amulets, check out Carol Andrews' Amulets of Ancient Egypt, Pgs 85 - 86.)
I will unequivically state that until the latter half of this century, mystical systems purporting to be AE weren't.
Will resend with appropriate chronology.
The Masonic thing just made my eyes cross a little ...
(A synopsis of AE basic magics would be no short post. I could post a book list ...)
They do NOT think of themselves as "Egyptian", and so shouldn't properly be a topic in this forum about that which is!
Please remember that almost 100% of what you will find online is written by Masonic detractors.
Thank you!
European Masonary was also very much influced by already existing Islamic secret soceities like the Ishmalis[Hashhasians]. The Masonic pratices within America are the York and Scotish Rite who are directly desended most likley from the Knights Templear.
Interesting you should mention magic because many magical pratices from the ancient Egyptians were later taken upon by early Christains and even Arabs. The magical pratices of the past continue to exist in rural areas of Upper Egypt. You could write a whole book upon magical survivals within Upper Egypt. From the exceration rituals down to the love spells and even the amulets are the same.
Right!
11th century - Seresons took over the "holy land, incl. Jerusalem. Thus began the first crusade.
The first crusade was "successful". The police force left to maintain control, mostly French, took up residence in what was known as "the temple of Solomon." They wrote to the Pope to say that they should be called the "Knights Templar".
To become one of the Knights Templar, one had to give all their worldly possessions to the group.
To aid pilgrems, the Templars hired masons to build castles along the pilgramage routes, from the Danube - Turkey - Gilbralter, from the Rhine - Marcelles ...
This created a secondary group - The Masons.
They studied math and archetecture and decided that they were maintaining the wisdome of the original designer of the pyramids. (Whatever rocks one's boat!)
In 1304, Phillip King of France decreed that the Templars had to be stomped, and there was a "Templar Burning Party" as the group was outlawed. But the Masons were never outlawed ... so there ya go.
Just to prove I'm not hallucinating, a search with King Phillip and Masons turns up: http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/daymart/masons.htm http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/centennial/2.html
"It is a privalege to be African, but all Africans must unite"!
The Rosicrucian Order first came to America in 1694. Many of its members made important studies in music, art, and painting. Today, Rosicrucians study the trends of history and attempt to apply their philosophy to meeting life's problems. Members believe that people must understand and live in harmony with nature. The Rosicrucian Order is not a religion.
The full name of the Rosicrucian Order is the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis. Its emblem is a gold cross with a red rose in the center. Headquarters are in San Jose, Calif.
Critically reviewed by the Rosicrucian Order "
--Their awe of the Ancient Egyptians, however, have them portraying them as your everyday European..But, we already know this symptom, so let us not digress...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 28 June 2004).]
Phacshuoal, if you want to claim that Masons are older than the 11th century, of the French, and born in Jerusalem, it's now up to you to prove that claim with some level of actual documentation. Please do.
Wally, please prove the claim that the Rosecrusians are older than the 15th century.
These are both originally medieval European magicl systems. They are both lovely systems, but it doesn't help to claim that they were born in AE. If we do this, we are going to miss what IS AE.
The moon in AE is masculine.
The actual disk of the moon is Iah, a god Himself (like Aten is as the sun disk). In reality a number of gods are *associated * with the Moon, most often include Khonsu and Wesir and Sokar, sometimes Djehuty, and infrequently Heru. Djehuty wears the moon-crescent on His head in some images and He also has the story about winning days from the moon (although the actual story's Greco Roman and so may be more about Hermes than Djehuty). Khonsu's name means "traveller", and He is often also depicted with a crescent on His head.
Wesir has the oldest associations with moon: Wesir is said to be the moon itself (the sun in the Duat, a connection between Ra and Wesir), and his sister-wife Aset is the one who restores the moon, either as Wesir or as Heru. Coffin Texts 155-6 may very well support Djehuty-as-crescent theory.
All the moon festivals I've been able to unearth in terms of actual "full moon" and "new moon" have been related to Heru (Moon is one of His eyes) and Sokar-Wesir as Ra in Darkness or the "sun of night."
References for Wesir as Moon, related to Ra in the Duat:
*J. Gwyn Griffiths, "The Standing Statue of Osiris-Iah (Osiris – moon disk) at Lyon,"
Journal of Egyptian Archaeology volume 65 (1979), pages 174-175.
*J. Gwyn Griffiths, "Osiris and the Moon in Iconography," Journal of Egyptian
Archaeology volume 62 (1976), pages 153-159.
*E. A. Wallis Budge, "Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection."
Not the best source, but even has an entire chapter called "Osiris as Moon God."
*Coffin Texts (Faulkner) Utterances 93, 155-156 and others
*Book of the Dead (Allen) Utterances 2, 65a, 162var.
**Note: logic says the Pyramid Texts, from which both of these arise, will have earlier versions, but I cannot find my copy today so I can't check on this immediately.
On relationships of Djehuty, Sokar, and Wesir: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/sokar.html
Coffin Texts 155-6 may very well support the Djehuty-as-crescent theory. After explaining in 155 and most of 156 that the moon, and particularly the New Moon, are associated with Wesir, it offers this tantalizing tidbit at the end of CT 156:
"I know the souls of Khmun.
What is small in the full month and what is great in the half-month, that is Djehuty."
(the references sound to me like the waxing and waning crescents).
No extant calendars from Khmun exist sadly; the temple of Djehuty was taken down to its foundations about a century ago to feed a lime-kiln.
In Sumer, the moon is masculine as well - Nanna / Suen. In worship, people treated his wife Ningal (name meaning “Great Lady”) as lunar too, but her association was strictly through her marriage with Nanna / Suen.
*Thorkild Jacobsen, "The Treasures of Darkness", Yale University Press
*Thorkild Jacobsen, "The Harps that Once ...", Yale University Press
*Michael Roaf, "Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia", Andromeda Oxford
*anything by Samuel Noah Kramer
Conversely, in the Jewish Kabbalistic system, the moon is distinctively feminine.
The Goddess of the Kabbala is Matronit, and there are references to Shekhina-Matronit as “Moon with the hair”.
*Raphael Patai, “The Hebrew Goddess”, Wayne State University Press.
*Tikva Frymer-Kensky, "In the Wake of the Goddesses", MacMillan
In Greek and Roman also, the moon is distinctively feminine. Artemis, Selene, Luna, Hecate, all of these reflect various aspects of the moon. Egyptian Aset had no direct relation to the moon, being masculine. She is the Sothic star Sirius, and her reappearance begins Egyptian New Year. The Greeks and Romans greatly venerated Aset, who they renamed Isis, but their theocracy dictated that the sun must be male and the moon must be female, and so Isis became for them related to the moon.
[This message has been edited by cassia (edited 29 June 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by cassia:
Wally, please prove the claim that the Rosecrusians are older than the 15th century.
There is a striking similarity between the myths of Ancient Egypt and modern materialist thinking. A hidden reason for this interesting fact is that, there is a modern organization that has adopted these Ancient Egyptian beliefs, and aims to establish them throughout the world. This organization is Masonry.
The Ancient Egyptian materialist philosophy continued to exist after this civilization disappeared. It was adopted by certain Jews and kept alive within Kabbalist doctrine. On the other hand, a number of Greek thinkers adopted the same philosophy, and reinterpreted it and perpetuated it as the school of thought known as "Hermeticism."
The word Hermeticism comes from the name of Hermes, the Greek counterpart for the Ancient Egyptian god "Thoth." In other words, Hermeticism is the Ancient Greek version of Ancient Egyptian philosophy
So even if it came from the Greeks, the Greek got it from the AE! Hence the AE "origins"---As in the "orginal" believers.
quote:
Originally posted by homeylu:
"The Egyptians believed that matter had always existed; to them it was illogical to think of a god making something out of absolutely nothing. Their view was that the world began when order came out of chaos, and that ever since there has been a battle between the forces of organization and disorder…This chaotic state was called Nun, and like the Sumerian …descriptions …, all was a dark, sunless watery abyss with a power, a creative force within it that commanded order to begin. This latent power which was within the substance of the chaos did not know it existed; it was a probability, a potential that was intertwined within the randomness of disorder."There is a striking similarity between the myths of Ancient Egypt and modern materialist thinking. A hidden reason for this interesting fact is that, there is a modern organization that has adopted these Ancient Egyptian beliefs, and aims to establish them throughout the world. This organization is Masonry.
The Ancient Egyptian materialist philosophy continued to exist after this civilization disappeared. It was adopted by certain Jews and kept alive within Kabbalist doctrine. On the other hand, a number of Greek thinkers adopted the same philosophy, and reinterpreted it and perpetuated it as the school of thought known as "Hermeticism."The word Hermeticism comes from the name of Hermes, the Greek counterpart for the Ancient Egyptian god "Thoth." In other words, Hermeticism is the Ancient Greek version of Ancient Egyptian philosophy
So even if it came from the Greeks, the Greek got it from the AE! Hence the AE "origins"---As in the "orginal" believers.
Solid!
I am in no way "claiming that the masons are
older than the 11th century, of the French".
I stated that masonry, has the Egyptian
Mysteries System to thank for the idea and
undoubtedbly ideas that was used in its inception to create much of what is known as the masons today. I never mentioned Jerusalem in regards to anything in my posts.
The claim is not mine to provide any documentation, or proof toward. Since it is
you who made the statemnt and so-called claim not I. What you have done is thrown
out a baitless hook, that will certainly not
be struck at by me.
"It is a privilege to be African, but all
Africans must unite"
Phacshuoal, I am sorry I miswrote. I didn’t mean to infer that you mentioned Jerusalem – you certainly didn’t. *I did.* I meant to ask you to show me any proof that the birth of the Knights Templar was anything other than what I had stated, since you didn't believe me.
Your statment read: "Masonry was born out of the crusades people" is a bit much to take, remember, Africa came first, and masonry could very well have emerged before or during the crusades, but if we are to give proper credence to civilization begining in Africa, which gave the concept of the family, which also gave us monotheism, as you stated in your writing, I guess that might be classed as Egyptian "stuff"? huh.
You're accusing me of misrepresenting a lineage of groups whose history is carefully documented not only by themselves, but by the Vatican and by several monarchies. Yet, you say you are skeptical of anything written by the majority of Europeans. This was Europeans documenting Europeans.
I tried to say that these groups were not born of AE *despite* their visual use of Kemetic symbols that they did not yet understand. The knowledge of hieroglyphs had been lost about 1,000 years before, and common knowledge at the time was that the pyramids were grain silos.
The GrecoRoman understanding of the Gods, the GrecoRoman system of directional elements, the Catholic system of angelic forces, the Jewish cabbalah, and the doctrine of reincarnation ... all of these things combine to describe the mystical systems of these groups ... and none of these things is remotely Kemetic. I guess the founders of the groups never thought to ask anybody who actually WAS Egyptian for input.
It is hard to believe in the doctrine of reincarnation at the same time as venerating one's blessed ancestors (akhu) and hoping that one's akhu as spiritual protectors will provide some spiritual guidance.
The forum entitled "letters to the dead" - this column begins to touch the edges of all I would have hoped this thread would be.
Peace to you and yours.