quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Can someone tell me about them please. Were they arab or african? I know they were forced to convert, but someone I'm arguing with claims blacks never created anything...you know the typical racist. He brought up the Moors and I only know them by name.
a) try searching this forum; the Moors have been discussed before.
b) according to C.A. Diop, the Moors were Arabs from Yemen
c) keep in mind that the root cause of Racism is a deep seated fear of another ethnic or racial group. Knowone, however irrational that person might be, is in the least bit intimidated by someone they feel innately superior too, in fact they are very comfortable around such an individual...
In this instance, the 'Blacks never created anything', isn't something they particular believe; their main point is to get you to believe it!
Ever read about the 'ol "Blacks can't play sports" routine? -- same thing
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 January 2005).]
During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon
The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali).
Good topic.
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Interesting subject. Moors can be said to be African and Arab, with some Spanish as well. And perhaps the Berber component is the most significant. It isn't an ethnic group per se. The term Moors comes from Greek mauros meaning dark. Not many people know this but the Romans used Moor for a time generically to describe Africans in a way similar to earlier Greek use of Ethiopian. The Romans often used Mouros interchangably with terms like Afer and Ethiopian. The Arabs conquered or converted much of North Africa to Islam around 700 AD. And these African/Arab peoples swept into Spain and conquered much of Southern Europe:During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon
The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali).
Good topic.
I agree completely with your analysis. What really fascinates me is how this small group of Yemeni families from a small country managed to conquer all of northern Africa and southern Europe, or
-how that 'tiny' English island had empires all over the globe, and
-how 'tiny' Japan held sway in eastern Asia, humbling even the mighty nation of China...
Is it the old axiom that it's not the quantity but the quality of something that is the more important element?...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 January 2005).]
This reply of yours is quite factual for a change!!
Every afrocentrist, would say that the Moors are Black and Black only, because that is how they were described by the Europeans.
The Black-a-Moors, many were actually not Black or Negro, but were darker than the White Europeans.
This only shedds light on the fact that when a European calls a Group Black, does not mean that they're Black Negros or Black Africans.
Rasol, I'm really surprised that this came from you......
Someone recently on this board, called the people of Mauritania (Land of the Moors), Black Native Africans.
It it seems that Herodutus had the same myopic vision as the other early Europeans about, when they described certain Africans.
Just a little food for thought!!
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Interesting subject. Moors can be said to be African and Arab, with some Spanish as well. And perhaps the Berber component is the most significant. It isn't an ethnic group per se. The term Moors comes from Greek mauros meaning dark. Not many people know this but the Romans used Moor for a time generically to describe Africans in a way similar to earlier Greek use of Ethiopian. The Romans often used Mouros interchangably with terms like Afer and Ethiopian. The Arabs conquered or converted much of North Africa to Islam around 700 AD. And these African/Arab peoples swept into Spain and conquered much of Southern Europe:During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon
The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali).
Good topic.
quote:
Rasol,This reply of yours is quite factual for a change!!
quote:
And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
Not long after the above quote was written Arabs and Arabized
"middle easterners" and Iranians professing Islam overcame
Amazigh resistance last led by queen Dahya alKahina of the
Aures in eastern Algeria. Though technically part of Numidia
rather than Mauritania all these Imazighen adopting Islam and
under Arab orders invading and successfully conquering what
is now southern Spain came to be called Moros. 150 years later
ibn Qutayba wrote down Wahb ibn Nunabbih opinion:
quote:
Kush and Kan`an's descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers.
Maur started out as a north Mediterranean concept of a specific
North African region but after the birth of al Andalus aka Muslim
Spain, the term Moor came to generally mean African Muslim in
the European languages. Though the Black a Moor is the Moor
that mostly captures our view there were also Tawny Moors and
White Moors. Their ascent in Europe survives in surnames of their
European descendents: Moore, Blackmoor, Tanimer, Whitmore, etc.
The term Black a Moor is a contraction of the phrase Black as a
Moor. The dominant image of a Moor as literally black, though they
were a variety of complexions, is because of two Andalusian dynasties
that arose from what is now the modern nation of Mauretania. They
were the al Murabitun and al Muwahhidun which included large
numbers of what are now Senegalese who are among the blackest
skinned people on earth. Many of the Zenaga al Mulathimun were
themselves very dark.
The legacy of the Roman age Mauritanii and the Moros of al Andalus
live on in the names of Morocco and Mauretania. To Africans the
Amazigh people of those countries are the Moors and not the Gnawa
people of the Sahel and Savanna. In particular the Mauritanians are
the Maurs divided into Beydan white Maurs and Haratin black Maurs.
Though some Fulani and Wolof have Mauritanian citizenship that
stretches back to pre Almoravid days they are not Maurs nor do they
seek to call themselves Maurs.
Yemini Arabs penetrated to Mauritania a thousand years ago and
eventually became the ruling class among the Beydani which also
includesZenaga. The peculiar Hasaniya dialect of Arabic is theirs
but these Yeminis are by no means the origin of the Maurs in fact
being the last people and the only Arabs to acquire the name Moor
which properly belongs to the northwest Africans.
The Gnawa or western Sudanese are not Moors. The Gnawa
attribute the destruction of the Songhai empire to a Moorish
invasion from Morocco. The descendents of the Moroccan
conquest of Songhai, which included Spaniards and I think
Scotts in their invasion force as well as genuine Moors, are
known as the Arma. I dont think any ethnic group located
below the Sahara between the Atlantic and Lake Chad
other than the Arma call themselves Moors. Its the Euros
who indiscriminately threw the word Moor around to the
point that even Indians and Filipinos were called Moors.
.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 18 January 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Can someone tell me about them please. Were they arab or african? I know they were forced to convert, but someone I'm arguing with claims blacks never created anything...you know the typical racist. He brought up the Moors and I only know them by name.
They were African with slight Turkic (Ottoman Moslem) admixture. Phenotypically, they are not too far removed from the coastal Carthaginians. There are Moorish people in Mauritania, Mali, Western Sahara (Sarawi) and Tunisia.
Watch the musical "Otello" starring Placido Domingo as Otello and pay close attention to the scene where he was taken as a slave in Africa by Arab horsemen. The depiction of the Moorish people in that scene is the most accurate I have seen to date.
Well, of course, Placido had to be made over to resemble a Moor. His skin was darkened and his hair was made frizzier than it naturally is. I guess they used him for his voice. But they did quite a good job in trying to capture the Moorish phenotype. He might as well be cast as Hannibal. It's a great movie.
My advice to you is, don't get into argument with people who make claims that black (African) people never created anything. Like their claim, they're pretty lame. So why waste your precious time on people like that. Let them wallow in their ignorance and stupidity.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
This thread is typical of this board. The Moors start out being arabs, which they were, and by the end of the thread they have turned black. I'm waiting for the black slavs to show up here.
If you were some sort of God-like figure then I would believe you dogmatically. However, since you are not, we require to see some credible scientific sources. Currently, such sources have not been postes, hence your ranting is meaningless.
Why even refer to Slavs? Do understand that your racist posts is rather hypocritical. The Germanic people were also slaves in Ancient Rome, and considered Barbarians by the Greeks.
In the beginning of the seventh century, the Arab prophet, Muhammad, began to preach the word of Islam. Consumed with religious fervor, the Arabs sought to spread Islam and conquer the world. By 708, the Arabs had overrun North Africa. Consequently, Moors in large numbers accepted Arabic as the national language and converted to their conqueror's religion, Islam. After the fall of the Roman Empire (fifth century), Spain was held by a barbaric white tribe, the Visigoths. Though they were Christians, their brand of Christianity was cruel and unjust. For this reason, Spain's Jews, serfs, and slaves looked favorably upon the arrival of a new civilization in which they would be able to live free of persecution.
Tarik, a great African chief, was given the rank of general in the Arab army and sent to raid Spain. On April 30, 711, Tarik landed on the Spanish Coast with 7,000 troops. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans (Moors). An ancient source, Ibn Husayn (ca. 950, recorded that these troops were "Sudanese", an Arabic word for Black people.
The Moors were unstoppable, and Visigothic Spain ceased to be. The few resisting Visigoths fled to the caves of the Cantabrian Mountains. Later in the century, the cave dwellers would venture out of the Cantabrian Mountains and reclaim parts of northern Spain.
The Moors of Africa were the real conquerors. When the Arabs arrived, the hardest part of the job had been done. Instead of treating the Moors fairly, the Arab chiefs assigned themselves the most fertile regions. The dissatisfied Moors were not long in coming to blows with the Arabs. (The History of Spain by Louis Bertrand and Sir Charles Petrie - published by Eyre & Spottiswood, London, 1945, page 36). Ultimately, the Moors acquired two-thirds of the peninsula, which they named Al-Andulus.
Al -Andulus was obliged to pay tribute to the Arab Caliph (King) of Damascus. As Al-Andulus acquired its own identity, its bond with the Caliph began to weaken. In 756, Al-Andulus proclaimed itself an independent state. Thus, its only links to the Arabs would be the Islamic faith and the Arabic language.
The Moorish architectural remains in Cordoba, Seville, and Granada prove conclusively that these cities were more prosperous and artistically more brilliant than any Christian cities in Europe at the time. The Moors of Al-Andulus held the torch of leaning and civilization when the rest of Europe was plunged in barbaric ignorance.
If Moorish Spain had been an accomplishment of the Arabs it would have been called Arab or Arabic Spain. Instead it bears the name of its creators, the Moors, i.e., Moorish Spain. - Yvonne Clark
quote:From what you're writing, it appears that you do not know how to read. Move along professor.
Originally posted by Horemheb:
[B]from what I am reading
Look at this! You all let it keep happening. Out of 20 posts
only 8 are on topic. Once again a thread has been hijiacked by
a reactionary and diverted to white supremist ideaology. Wake up people.
Learn to ignore the ignorant and keep the train on the tracks, please.
quote:
Out of 20 posts
only 8 are on topic.
Back to the topic.
The Moors: The Islamic West 7th-15th centuries David Nicholle
Several peoples were involved in the remarkable military hist5ory of the Islamic West.
The Berbers predominated throughout North Africa and the Sahara. To the south were Berber speaking peoples, African in appearance. The introduction of the camel in the medieval period meant that the Sahara bacame a bridge between North and sub-Saharan Africa. This allowed Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history.
The historical facts on the Moors are actually not in serious dispute. Most of the topical posts essentially concur. Does anyone have fundamentally different information to share?
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
takruri, You would not know a white supremist if you ran into one. Most of the stuff on this board is radical garbage, some of us have the need to point that out and possibly save a mind here and there. You can't have a historical discussion when people want to use Yvonne Clark and marcus Garvey to make their points. This black thing just has some of you people obsessed, you can't get past your skin color to live in the world. I'll bet you get up every day of your life thinking about being black.
Horemheb,
Your posts are irrelevant, just as you are irrelevant.
So, as rasol just stated, back to the topic at hand please!
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Roy, First lets cut the 'racist' charge.
quote:
In the second place son I do not rant.
Secondly, you are a hilarious individual. You have been ranting for a long time, and yet have provided credible sources for your claim. Instead of ranting, you ought to focus on proving that:
i) Moors were Arab.
ii) Arabs = Caucasoid
Come on atleast provide some source rather than the ancient white supremist crap you been raised with.
quote:
This is typical black radical response, 'you must be a racist if you don't agree with me.
You are a very paranoid individual. For your information, I am not really even Black.
quote:
Problem is Roy that this entire board is based on racism. Almost every thread gets back to making some kind of racial point. The objetct here is to use history for racial political purposes. these guys all know who they are and what they are trying to do. The rest of us know as well.
I don't know. Most of the "afrocentric" posts tend to make Egypt appear greater than before. For example, they proven that Egypt were writing before the Sumerians, nor was it a younger civilization. Even if they were going into racial topics, they did prove that the Egyptians were Negroid. They used Western AKA White sources to prove it, and they were not from country/trailer park people, they were from well educated linguists, egyptologists, etc. I think we cannot criticize such sources without presenting a stronger source.
quote:
That is why mainstream Egyptology rejects their point of view.
Mainstream Egyptology? I swear I thought Discovery Channel only gathers anything about Egypt from mainstream Egyptologists. The King Tut and Nefertiti images do look pretty Black or Negroid to me.
quote:
I believe the Moors were a mostly black african people with some arab admixture.
There are many very specific European accounts of Moorish armies which are stated to have hailed from the Sudan, and other parts of inner-Africa.
Most important thing is that Moor is neither an ethnicity nor nationality. It's a group of Africans and Arab muslims both Black and non-Black who conquered most of Spain and dominated much of Europe for centuries.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 January 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Most important thing is that Moor is neither an ethnicity nor nationality. It's a group of Africans and Arab muslims both Black and non-Black who conquered most of Spain and dominated much of Europe for centuries. [/B]
That is the main point that needs to be highlighted. It really doesn't matter much what race the Moors were, but what is more significant, is that the Moors were Africans, who conquered Spain and southern Europe. From North to South, African developments will remain African, as is the case with other parts of the globe.
To nonAfricans there may be confusion over who are Moors but in
Africa the Hasaniya speaking Beydan and Haritin of Mauritania are
the Moors. They are the only people in Africa other than the few
Arma along the Niger, who call themselves Moors. Many of the
inhabitants of the original old Mauretania were pushed south by the Arabs.
This is why Moor is such a slippery term because its definition
and application to anyone, except the Mauritanians and Arma, is
an externally imposed identity and will vary through time and
according to the country of the observer using the word Moor.
So for those who are not continental Africans, who is a Moor
boils down to a cojoint Muslim and African identity that lumps
together people who do not or did not consider themselves
ethnically, nationally, or culturally related. For an example as
to how imprecise this word really is, consider the patron saint
of Germany, St Maurice the Moor.
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/grunewal/grunewa4.jpg
St. Moritz (Maurice) the Moor (a black man dressed as a soldier; patron saint of the militant Order of Teutonic Knights, who were forcibly converting the Slavs to Christianity--or else).
http://www.wisc.edu/arth/ah330/charles.html
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
This thread is typical of this board. The Moors start out being arabs, which they were, and by the end of the thread they have turned black. I'm waiting for the black slavs to show up here.
Straight from Magdeburg, Germany!
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 January 2005).]
Well it was a close up at the source.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 January 2005).]
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 January 2005).]
quote:
Yemenis Arabs and even Saudi Arabs are mainly dark/black skinned, with Dravidian-like features. However, the elite Arabs or those from Hijaz are white. This means that the term Moor could be applied to the Arabs too.
This is true that the lower classes in Yemen have an Austric[Dravidian,veddoid element]. Many people from Sadui Arabi come from historic hajjis pilgrims,slaves, and soliders. During the time of the phophet Mohammed[pbuh] many Habesha[Ethiopians] came to Mecca and also controlled parts of Yemen for awhile.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
alTakruri, the irony of this is St. Maurice actually came from Upper Egypt[Southern Egypt] around the Luxor area. He is also a Coptic saint held in high reguard. He was part of the Theban league of soliders who were stationed in parts of Europe by the Romans.
Ausar
You hit the nail square on the head!
Yes, this is why I offered him as an example of how slippery the
word Moor is in the European mind and their obsession with the
Black a Moor that could make nearly any kind of black anywhere
into a Moor regardless of their bonified ethnicity or nationality.
No way an Upper Egyptian of the 3rd century was ever a Moor since
during that time period Mauretania was clear across the continent at
the NW and no ancient writer ever correlated Maurs to Egyptians.
Only after the Muslim conquest of the southern parts of Iberia did
he become a Moor even though he was an Egyptian Coptic Christian.
It doesnt serve African history for scholars to perpetuate the same
nonsense instead of recknoning Moors as first the Mauretanians
and now the Mauritanians both of whom were and are overwhelmingly
Imazighen. All the rest to me is just slight of hand magnification.
However slippery the usage of the 'Moor' term became, this is what is important to take from Muslim conquests of southern Europe (pointed out earlier in the thread):
"Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history."
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 20 January 2005).]
quote:
No way an Upper Egyptian of the 3rd century was ever a Moor since
during that time period Mauretania was clear across the continent at
the NW and no ancient writer ever correlated Maurs to Egyptians
Lol. It seems that we can add Moor to our list of most often confused terms relating to African history.
* Ethiopia
* Nubia
* Egypt
* Berber
* Moor
quote:
Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Yemenis Arabs and even Saudi Arabs are mainly dark/black skinned, with Dravidian-like features. However, the elite Arabs or those from Hijaz are white. This means that the term Moor could be applied to the Arabs too.
The Arabs including Yeminis are more red (brown and lighter) than
black (brown and darker). Unless youre using Moor as a code
word for dark/black skinned the only Yemini Moors are the ones
heavily or actually predominently mixed with Zenaga Imazighen
in Mauritania. At least thats my personal experience and opinion.
Moor has a precise definition Mauretanian/Mauritanian. To call
anyone else Moors is to impose an identity label on them that they
themselves do not recognize or accept. It doesnt help historical
investigation to allow everyone from Iberia to Senegal to Egypt
to Mozambique to the Arabian peninsula to the Fillipines to be
Moors. They all have their separate actual identities and
accomplishments.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
This is true that the lower classes in Yemen have an Austric[Dravidian,veddoid element]. Many people from Sadui Arabi come from historic hajjis pilgrims,slaves, and soliders. During the time of the phophet Mohammed[pbuh] many Habesha[Ethiopians] came to Mecca and also controlled parts of Yemen for awhile.
I think Muhammed was born in the Year of the Elephant which marked
the end of Ethiopian rule over Arabia as a consequence of the excesses
of Dhu Nawas. But this was last not the first time there was shared
government across the Bab el Mandeb.
Long in the past the Horn and the Yemen was a Two Shore Empire
just like the later Morocco and al Andalus. This is why both Yemen
and Ethiopia claim Bilqis aka Makeda as an ancient queen of theirs.
So we have Saba or Sheba after Kushitic and protoSemitic speakers
found their way to the Arabian peninsula. The black connection is
African more so than Austric especially when culture and history are
consulted not to discount the fact that Ethiopis, Yemenis, and Deccan
Indians have intermarried throughout time.
Theres the prominence of the cDe allele of the Rh gene, called the
African chromosome, in Yemenis from Habban in particular. The Fy*O
allele is another African marker and its occurence is even higher than
cDe in Yeminis and Habbanis.
Nor are the African elements further north of the Yemen due to migrants
from the late Islamic era with its hajjis and slaves. Arab origin mythos
name two distinct ancestors, Qahtaan (pure southerners) and Adnan
(mixed northerners), and the three way division of their society into:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I think Muhammed was born in the Year of the Elephant which marked
the end of Ethiopian rule over Arabia as a consequence of the excesses
of Dhu Nawas. But this was last not the first time there was shared
government across the Bab el Mandeb.
Could you please expand on this? I'm not familiar with any of it, particularly the excesses of Dhu Nawas.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Is it true that Eric the Red was really blackhave you heard the rumor that julius caesar was actually black?
I've heard those rumors.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Supercar... Is it true that Eric the Red was really black? you know it could be that in Viking lore red really means black or it could be that one of those black Moorish knights wantered up to Denmark and began an entire line of black Vikings !!!!
have you heard the rumor that julius caesar was actually black? I know it sounds crazy but, as in all the other topics we talk about on our board, it COULD be true....lets just say it is.
Horemheb, you have a choice. You can deal with reality stuff that is right in front of you; or you can chose to live in the 19th century mindset wonderland. It is safe to say that you've decided to waste your mind in engaging in the latter.
quote:
Originally posted by supercar:
AlTakruri, that is a good point you just made.However slippery the usage of the 'Moor' term became, this is what is important to take from Muslim conquests of southern Europe (pointed out earlier in the thread):
"Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history."
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 20 January 2005).]
Yes the Europeans were most impressed by the al Murabitun and al
Muwahhidun who were mainly Zenaga Imazighen and Gnawa Atlantics
found on either side of the river Senegal. These people became
the Moors par exellant in the European psyche but the Luso Hispanics
did not consider their own familiar nonMuslim Gnawa slaves and
servants as Moors whereas in the British Isles nonMuslim Gnawa were
called Moors, like Elen and Margaret More and Peter Moryen free favorites
and courtiers of queen Margaret and king James of Scotland.
quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Could you please expand on this? I'm not familiar with any of it, particularly the excesses of Dhu Nawas.
In a nutshell the Arabian population of the 6th century were mostly
either traditional, Jewish, or Christian. Dhu Nuwas was a Yemini
who converted to Judaism and like many new proselytes was over
zealous and persecuted the Christian elements. The Byzantines and
the Abyssinian Coptics came to the aid of their Arab coreligionists with
the Abyssinians attaining hegemony over the
peninsula.
At some point in time the Abyssinian Coptics decided to overthrow
the site of the Traditionalists at Mecca where the Qa`aba housed
their idols. Elephants were the tanks of those days and when an
elephant mysteriously failed to obey its mahout it made a great
impression on the Arabs who defeated the Abyssinians regaining
their sovereignty.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
In a nutshell the Arabian population of the 6th century were mostly
either traditional, Jewish, or Christian. Dhu Nuwas was a Yemini
who converted to Judaism and like many new proselytes was over
zealous and persecuted the Christian elements. The Byzantines and
the Abyssinian Coptics came to the aid of their Arab coreligionists with
the Abyssinians attaining hegemony over the
peninsula.At some point in time the Abyssinian Coptics decided to overthrow
the site of the Traditionalists at Mecca where the Qa`aba housed
their idols. Elephants were the tanks of those days and when an
elephant mysteriously failed to obey its mahout it made a great
impression on the Arabs who defeated the Abyssinians regaining
their sovereignty.
Interesting. Thx.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Arabs including Yeminis are more red (brown and lighter) than
black (brown and darker).
You mean Red like an Somali/South Indian?
My uncle and others whom have been in Saudi Arabia has told me that most Saudi Arabians tend to be more darker skinned like a Dravidian. However in Jeddah, you will find the more Caucasoid looking Arabs.
The lower class Yemenis look more Australoid, which is distinct from the 'Asiatic' or Somali-like Yemenis with similar complexion. They tend to look more like a Jarawa than a Somali. Surprisingly, the Jarawa would be considered more 'African' than even the Somali or Khosiens by Westerners.
Note: I am fully aware that the Mauritanian were the Moors, and are much darker than the Yemenis Arab.
[This message has been edited by Roy_2k5 (edited 20 January 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Surprisingly, the Jarawa would be considered more 'African' than even the Somali or Khosiens by Westerners.
This makes no sense.
You asked about the ethnicity of the Moors and a interesting discussion ensued.
So add this to the points to ponder:
ANWAR CHEJNE tells in his informative text, "MUSLIM SPAIN: IT'S HISTORY AND CULTURE" the following: " But the most relevant and significant views on Islam are those of Alfonso X(1252-1284), a king and scholar.... Before assuming the throne, Alfonso X was in intinate contact with Muslims, first as governor of Murcia and later as a king who surrounded himself with Muslim savants....In fact, like his immediate predecessors he gave serious consideration to the expulsion of the Moors".
But Alfonso was quite nationalistic and he expressed his views on the Moorish presence in his "CRONICA GENERAL DE ESPANA". For Alfonso it was a big calamity that had befallen the Visigoths when they succumbed to the Moorish invasion at the behest of King Roderick. He was quite upset at how the Moors conquered Spain as is demonstrated by these comments: "All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired; the reins of their horses were like fire; their BLACK faces were like PITCH and the most handsome of
them was like a cooking pan; thus their eyes shone like flames; their horses fast as leopards...The vile people of AFRICA who were not used to kindness...are now exalted 'Poor Spain. Your death was so afflicted...."
So obviously King Alfonso saw the Moors as blacks--persons of Africoid phenotype.
Ivan van Sertima has also edited a text titled "GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR" whose virtue is that it contains many paintings and visual depictions of the Moors as they were seen in the days of their presence in Spain. They were clearly Africoid in appearance.
But note that the term "Moor" is not of African origin as is the name of the West African country called Mauritania. The so-called Moors of Mauritania actually call themselves "Naah" and their language is not Arabic but "Naah" itself. When they migrate to Senegal and Gambia they usually set up small shops. The French erroneosly referred to them as "white Moors" but in actual fact they range from dark brown to yellow in colour with the lighter coloured ones resembling the generic phenotype seen in North Africa.
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 20 January 2005).]
[This message has been edited by efe_adodo (edited 20 January 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by efe_adodo:
Can anyone give me a list of All the modern day countres where the Moors originated from?
I believe this question has indirectly been addressed in previous posts here. I think AlTakruri broke it down rather appropriately into African and non-African perspectives. What is important is that the Moors as applied to southern European conquests, involved Islamic Africans, including black Africans.
quote:
AlTakruri posted earlier:By and large, when it comes to al Andalus aka Muslim Spain the
Imazighen and certain Islamized Gnawa were Moors whereas the
Arabs and Arabized east Mediterraneans, Iraqis, and Iranians were
Saracens.To nonAfricans there may be confusion over who are Moors but in Africa the Hasaniya speaking Beydan and Haritin of Mauritania are the Moors. They are the only people in Africa other than the few Arma along the Niger, who call themselves Moors. Many of the inhabitants of the original old Mauretania were pushed south by the Arabs...
Yes the Europeans were most impressed by the al Murabitun and al Muwahhidun who were mainly Zenaga Imazighen and Gnawa Atlantics
found on either side of the river Senegal. These people became the Moors par exellant in the European psyche but the Luso Hispanics
did not consider their own familiar nonMuslim Gnawa slaves and servants as Moors whereas in the British Isles nonMuslim Gnawa were called Moors, like Elen and Margaret More and Peter Moryen free favorites and courtiers of queen Margaret and king James of Scotland.
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[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 21 January 2005).]
Moorish Black Noble men playing chess.
*For expanded version of the above picture, just copy & past this link to your browser:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cantigas/images/libro_2.gif
Couldn't allow the size of the photo to distort the page of the thread.
Depictions of four Moorish Princes killed in battle with Aragonese forces. (courtesy of playahata.com)
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 21 January 2005).]
Yes, you are right. Just my spelling is almost the same as yours.
quote:
Originally posted by supercar:
This makes no sense.
I meant that the Jarara Australoid do look very Negroid, even more so than a Somali. I do at times use the term 'African' and 'Negroid' interchangeably, but I picked up this habit in the West.
quote:
Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
I meant that the Jarara Australoid do look very Negroid, even more so than a Somali. I do at times use the term 'African' and 'Negroid' interchangeably, but I picked up this habit in the West.
I understand what you are saying.
Australians also have some physical characteristics which are distinct from most Africans [including often white/blonde hair]. There was a Cavalli-Sforza [not my favorite reference] genetic study which reputed to show that Austrialians and Africans were the most genetically distant populations on earth. However both are also distant from Europeans.
Australians were classified by some physical anthropologists as racially caucasoid - but this makes no 'genetic' sense. Others classified them as racially 'negroid'. But this makes no genetic sense either.
Australians do not 'need' to be classified in terms of Africans or Europeans any more than Europeans need to be classified as 'Australoid'.
The race classifcation system is really a scam. It's a contrived European caste system meant to provide pseudo-scientific rationale for white supremacy.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 January 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
I meant that the Jarara Australoid do look very Negroid, even more so than a Somali. I do at times use the term 'African' and 'Negroid' interchangeably, but I picked up this habit in the West.
Then I take it that by "Negroid" you mean "forest Negro" type, because "Negroid" in itself doesn't apply to just central and West Africans, but indeed includes Northeastern and sub-Saharan eastern tropically adapted Africans. When you state the some ethnic group, which actually may be more distant from Africans, than actual Africans, it doesn't make sense, and that is what I was pointing out. Somalians are Africans, and have always been African. How much more African can that get?
You mind if we narrow it down? If you don't have an answer (and you never do) we'll just blame it on the 'not too bright' Horemheb.
....which causes you to relapse into increasingly hysterical engraged ranting? Uh, ok. Tell us more.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 January 2005).]
quote:That is indeed a good question.
Originally posted by Horemheb:
is that your only good line rasshole. why in the world would a European want to steal anything from you....think about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
is that your only good line rasshole. why in the world would a European want to steal anything from you....think about it.