Stela Fragment From Naga, Lion Temple, inner room; found in 1996 Meroitic, beginning of the christian era
Professor Winters: This fragmented stela shows Meroitic inscriptions, could you translate please? Thank you
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Myra, do you have an idea as to how old this fragment is estimated to be?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hi Myra
I will attempt to read the broken tablet. First of all it is hard to make out some of the signs on this piece, especially parts of line three(3) and five (5), but I will attempt to read the piece.
Reading the piece from right to left we have the following:
Transliteration
1. m...e-ne...ap....
2. [s]....mlo..nea...š.....
3. m...p....b...ye..... s
4. e.....q....b....p...nea....
5. [o]...lo... ň-ne...ml....ne...s...mš....
Translation
"...(1)The great Commander and ancestor....(2)[prop up] the inner heart at this time (of) the King....(3) m entreat the Ba to travel (and) prop up...(4)Register the wish (of) the Ba to solicit at this time....(5)[Begin] to dispatch Goodness and the good spirit (of) the son of Mash.....
Vocabulary
ap, ancestor, father
m , great
e-ne, commander
e, register; vouchsafe; grant a boon
b, Ba
ml, spirit
mlo, innerheart, soul
s, son; to protect; to prop up
ye, to make; travel, voyage
nea, at this time;
ne, good
ň-ne, Goodness
mš, Mash
lo, dispatch
o, begin
The so called word divider sign : equals -ne. The : is used to change verbs into nouns, or means good.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
The book which I got this picture from dates it from Meroitic, beginning of the christian era.
Thank you Dr. Winters.
Reference:
Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, (1997)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You are welcome.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
King Tańyidamani, and the Meroitic lion-god Apedemek (110 BC-90 BC)
The most interesting Meroitic text concerning Apedemak is found on the votive tablet of Tańyidamani which is now found in the Paris Museum. On this votive tablet Tańyidamani is depicted on the obverse side , and the god Apedemak on the reverse side.
On the reverse side of the Tańyidamani votive tablet the god Apedemak is depicted wearing a short apron and hemhem crown. On this votive tablet Apedemak also wears armlets, bracelets, a collar and pectoral. Inside a panel in front of Apedemak we find a cursive Meroitic inscription.
The inscriptions in the panel on the reverse side of the votive tablet of King Tańyidamani make it clear that the king acknowledged the important role the god Apedemak played in his life. These inscriptions can be read either from right to left or top to bottom. Reading from right to left we read:
TRANSLITERATION OF REVERSE SIDE OF VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAŃYIDAMANI
1. w e to
2. q tel
3. w to si
4.tone m-k
5. d.[l]..r-i
6.te i
TRANSLATION
1. You (it is Apedemak who) gives guidance.
2. Revitalize support (for me King Tańyidamani).
3. You guide (me) to satisfaction.
4. (And ) much reverence (for your patron).
5. Give (it) amicably (to me).
6. May (it go forth).
Reading this same inscription top to bottom we find the following:
TRANSLITERATION OF THE REVERSE SIDE OF THE VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAŃYIDAMANI
1. w q b-to d-te.
2. e te to m ne l.
3. toe i skr-i.
TRANSLATION
1. (Oh Apedemak) Guide and Make Honor (for your patron).
2. Give here your (full) measure of Good indeed.
3. (It is) thou (Apedemak who) give(s) leave to eminence (for your patron).
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Head of a BA Statue with Sun Disk From Aniba, Lower Nubia Meroitic, second to third century A.D.
The Meroitic Nubians produced these characteristic Ba statues showing the deceased in human form sometimes with a sundisk on their head.
Image from Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, (1997)
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Shrine Stands of King Natakamini and Kandake Amanitore Sandstone; H. 116, W. 84 cm, Th. 84 cm From Wad Ban Naga Preuliische Agypten-Expedition, 1844 Meroitic, A.D. 0-20 Berlin, Agyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung
Bilingual Text
The Kushite rulers King Natakamani and Kandake Amanitore constructed important temples throughout the kingdom. They erected one such building, similar in ground plan and size to the Amun Temple at Naga, in one of the largest city centers of the "island" of Meroe, in the vicinity of the present-day Wad Ban Naga. In 1844, the Prussian expedition discovered three stands for divine barks or shrines there, of which the largest was brought through the authority of Muhammad Ali to Berlin.
The two others disappeared long ago. On the two larger stands, the decoration and inscriptions in Egyptian, used one last time after a long interval, bear close similarity to pieces from contemporary Egypt (that is, the early Roman Period), particularly at Philae.
The Egyptian temple is a model of the universe whose heavenly region is inhabited by the god. The divine image rests in a naos or divine bark on a stand which thus takes the form of a temple. Beneath a torus molding and cavetto cornice, adorned on one side with a winged sun-disk delineating a gateway, the star-filled heavens are shown on all four sides being "supported" by four individuals. Two opposite sides show two of the deities of the four cardinal points, holding up the heavens according to mythic imagery; they are Tawyt ("Bearer") for the north and Ahayt ("Midday") for the south. The horizontal captions describe the scene: "The heavens are lifted up by me for the mistress of the earth. Through me her place is established in greater (heavenly) distance than that of the one who bore her; may she shine in it in her bark like the moon who travels in his bark." "The heavens are lifted up by me for Isis, who grants life. Through me her place is established in greater (heavenly) distance than that of the one who raised her; may she shine in her chapel like the sun in his night-bark." In place of the other two cardinal point deities are King Natakamani and Kandake Amanitore. Among the well-established duties of the king was the maintenance of the temple as insurance of cosmic order. This is signified by the "lifting" of the heavens, as is the hope that the deity might inhabit its cult image in the temple. Thus the inscriptions accompanying Natakamani and Amanitore read: "Stay, stay on the great throne, Isis, mistress of the Underworld, like the living sun-disk in the horizon, in that you let your son Natakamani remain on his throne." "Stay, stay on the great throne, Isis, mistress of the Underworld, as does the moon that grows like an egg in traversing heaven. May it give life to your daughter, Amanitore." The bark stand is also of importance for the decipherment of the Meroitic script. Beside the heads of the two rulers, their throne names are written according to Egyptian custom, while their birth names appear in Meroitic hieroglyphs. The latter also appear, this time in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the caption texts; the object is thus truly bilingual.
Photo and text from the book Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, 1997, p. 256
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Meroitic mortuary offerings reflect many objects the Meroite would use in the afterworld. They inscribed or painted ba statues, stela and offering tables with cursive Meroitic . The utilitarian items of every-day use by the Meroites were placed in the tomb., while the ba statuettes and stela were often placed outside the tombs.
The offering tables were used to make libations in behalf of the deceased after his interment. They were made of sandstone and shaped either rectangular or square. The tables measured anywhere between ten and fourteen inches in length, with a recessed center surrounded by a raised border.
The offering tablets and funerary stela often include carved designs and inscriptions. The inscriptions were in Meroitic. The most popular designs on the tables include loaves of bread, and the mortuary gods Anubis and Nephthys.
The artifacts found near the tombs of rich Meroites include ba statuettes. The ba statuettes often made in the shape of humans with folded wings, were usually placed in front of the tomb . It was made in this way to represent the free and mobile nature of Ba, which was suppose to sore into the sky. The Ba was recognized as a soul, which possessed mobility.
The term Ba represented the ability of the deceased person's spirit to move from the grave and implore the gods for passage and protection of the Kha to the underworld.
In the funerary inscriptions we also find much mention of the Ba or Be . I have interpreted the term Ř ba #, as "soul'. The ba, united the conception of the Kha, and the Khe / Kho . The best place to find this term in the Meroitic funerary literature include the Tańyidamani , Armina West and Karanog steleas.
The spirit body of the King was to sustain Good at the burial site. For example the Ba of Tańyidamani was to remain at Jebel Barkal (Tańyidamani stela, lines 33-34) for a period of time continuing to serve Aman, while it represented a talisman of blessing for the pilgrims that visited his tomb.
According to the Tańyidamani stela ,line 139, the Ba was a gift to Aman . This may explain the placement of the Meroitic carved items such as the ba statues and funerary tablets outside the Meroite tombs. Placement outside the tomb probably tolerated the ba's effortless access to flight.
In the late Meroitic text. The Ba , was no longer forced to stay at the tomb. In these inscriptions it is made clear that the Ba, retired in B(a)ne.
Below we will first give the transliteration of the Karanog stelae and then a translation of Meroitic into English. At the end of the translation we will provide a vocabulary of the text.
Line 1. Woshi ...ne... Shore... yi-ne... t-po... m-i... d.
Line 14. P-Sin ...ote ...m-i ...ke ...te-ne ...Wosi ...ne.
...Shore ...o-i ...ine.
TRANSLATION "l. Isis the Good, and Osiris the Eternal (are) commanding the measure (of) the bequeathal. (2) Tqowine, the patron to transmit her satisfying bequeathal. She commands the beginning of the bequeathal of the He. (3) The solitary honorable patron (is) to behold the He-ne's (the abstract personality of man)...to prop up the renewal. Act to (make) the conveyance. (4) (Its) the Fashion to dispatch Awe...[h]i to remain to reproduce within satisfaction from a distance. (5) The solitary object of respect to make indeed a good voyage to Mtetl...[here] to be give(n) a good existence.(6) She is to witness solitary reverence capable of cleverly bowing in reverence (to the gods)--give leave to the /a grand journey (Oh) Commander. (7) Measure the good (of the ) lonely object of Honor [lying in the grave]...esteem and dignity. Adorn (her with) goodness, give opening to honor.(8) Your nonexistent patron goes to measure goodness. Give (its) beginning Now! The Object of Respect (Tqowine, to be) renewed indeed. (9) Endorse the embarkation of the (good) Supporter. Set in Motion the dispatch of this object of respect (Tqowine) to reverberate luck. (10) The patron, she is present (in) the grave. Send the Object of Respect to unlock H-ne [the place where the H, is kept] --the Patron begs you. (11) Protect her conveyance of the H. This honorable woman give (her) isolated departure. The Teacher (to take) a journey. (12) Announce in a lofty voice indeed, the dispatch of this Object of Respect (on the) path (of) the grand bestowal (of) atonement (and ) favor. (13) Rebirth is the path to grand bestowal of honor to the H , indeed give permission for the rebirth of the H, and the soul to exit. (14) Much satisfaction (and) wonder (to come) measure it. The permission (for its bestowal ) is arranged by Isis,( and) Osiris (is) the Opener of the Way."
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
From Musawwarat es-Sufra, Lion Temple Meroitic, 200 B.C. Berlin Museum
Three animal heads are shown side by side, accompanied below by their front paws. The ram's head in the center combines horns winding around the ears with an additional, horizontally turned pair of horns; both breeds of ram are symbolic form of Amun. The crown consists of two uraei, each wearing a sun-disk and cow's horns, then a large sun-disk with a band of uraei and two falcon plumes, which are flanked in turn by two more uraei. Between the front paws is a papyrus umbel. The lion heads wear the hem-hem crown above their horizontal ram's horns, consisting of stylized bundles of reeds and a sun-disk, flanked on each side by a single ostrich feather and uraeus. The lion on the right also wears a crescent moon. The two deities Shu and Tefnut, closely associated with Amun's residence of Gebel Barkal, are probably represented by the two lions.
Meroitic Bowl Post-Meroitic, fourth to fifth century A.D.
The continuity of the Meroitic kingdom in the fourth and fifth century the most important site is el-Hobagi, situated not far from Wad Ban Naga on the left (west) bank of the Nile. Instead of the pyramid form, the traditional tumulus reappears, now surrounded by a large temenos wall. Although these are usually seen as typically post-Meroitic complexes, the burial equipment found in the el-Hobagi tombs indicates just the opposite. Their inventory is strictly Meroitic; hence the fall of the city of Meroe and its royal cemetery is not delineated by sharp, historical break. The continuity of Meroitic culture extends into fourth and fifth centuries A.D.
An inscription in Meroitic hieroglyphs mentioning the words "king" and "god" appears on this bronze bowl. This is the latest known Meroitic text discovered so far. -- Dietrich Wildung (1997)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Naqa Temple
At the lion temple of Naqa, we find Natakamani on the left façade and Amanitore on the right. Under the feet of the ruling pair we find friezes of their defeated enemies.
There are a number of Meroitic hieroglyphics on the front of the Naqa Lion Temple. There are three columns of hieroglyphic inscriptions on under the falcon of King Natakamani. Reading from left to right we see the following
Transliteration
1. ter tel i ne
2. …ni-ne b-q r
3. ikh iy kh te b d r te Translation
"1….the erection (of this structure) elevates (our) tradition [of building].2…brilliance (is) also desired indeed.3…this spot bring Great light (and) also leave a legacy (of) unity."
We can interpret the inscriptions and engraving from this part of the temple as follows:
"King Natakamani smites the enemies of Meroe. The royalty "...[has made] the erection (of this structure) to elevate (as is our) tradition.2…Brilliance (is) also indeed desired.3…This spot to bring Great light (to many and) also leave (to the Meroites) a legacy (of) unity."
..
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Meroitic mortuary offerings reflect many objects the Meroite would use in the afterworld. The offering tables were used to make libations in behalf of the deceased after his interment. They were made of sandstone and shaped either rectangular or square. The tables measured anywhere between ten and fourteen inches in length, with a recessed center surrounded by a raised border.
The offering tablets and funerary stela often include carved designs and inscriptions. The inscriptions were in Meroitic. The most popular designs on the tables include loaves of bread, and the mortuary gods Anubis and Nephthys.
Offering Table Sandstone From Meroe, northern cemetery, Pyramid B N 30 Meroitic, A.D. 140-155 Berlin Museum
The goddess Nephthys and the god Anubis pour water or milk over an offering altar. Anubis looks after the deceased, and Nephthys assists her sister, Isis, in mourning and protecting the deceased Osiris. The scene thus associates the deceased with Osiris. The text is written in Meroitic hieroglyphic, instead of the usual cursive Meroitic script. Some of the inscription may be deciphered, thanks to the strict conventionality of offering table formulae: "O Isis, O Osiris, Takideamani, born of Napatadakheto, and created by Adeqetali, . . . may . . .a good Nile may . . . become . . . may . . ." -- Karl-Heinz Priese
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Sheath for a Staff From Gebel Barkal, Temple B 500, north gate in B 502 Harvard University—MFA Boston Expedition, April 1919 Meroitic, 110-90 B.C. Boston, Museum of Fine Arts
This bronze fitting was found in the vicinity of the northern side entrance leading into the hypostyle hall of the great Amun Temple at Gebel Barkal. It was set onto a staff-like object and fastened with a split pin. The decoration reproduces the motif of "unification of the Two Lands"—two Nile gods bind the emblematic plants of Upper and Lower Egypt together. On the opposite side are the royal epithets "King of Upper and Lower Egypt" and "Son of Ra," each above a cartouche.
Despite the different spellings, the name is probably the same in both cartouches: Try-kmn. The right cartouche uses a striding lion sign for the second half of the name. A column of cursive Meroitic text occurs on each side, and four more columns surround the two Nile gods. Among the words present is the name of Amun. The beginning of the inscription contains the name of King Taneyidamani, who erected an inscribed, four-lined stela in front of the first pylon of the Amun temple. Taneyidamani is most likely the name inside the cartouches; the sign used, however, were apparently not incorporated into final, standardized alphabet of Meroitic writing. -- Karl-Heinz Priese
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Stela Fragment From Naga, Lion Temple, inner room; found in 1996 Meroitic, beginning of the christian era
What reference number is given to this item, by the German Museum, if indeed, this is where the item is located? In any case, I'm interested in the reference number, for further research purposes. Thanks in advance.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Stela Fragment From Naga, Lion Temple, inner room; found in 1996 Meroitic, beginning of the christian era.
What reference number is given to this item, by the German Museum, if indeed, this is where the item is located? In any case, I'm interested in the reference number, for further research purposes. Thanks in advance.
Hi Supercar:
This is the full description:
Sandstone; H. 11.2 cm, W. 10.4 cm, Th. 1.6 cm From Naga, Lion Temple, inner room Berlin Naga-Project 1996, field no. Naga 301-4 Meroitic, beginning of the Christian era Khartoum, Museum 27449
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Sebiumeker
Meroitic deity Sebiumeker was an anthropomorphic god of procreation. His main center of worship is in the temple complex at Musawwarat el-Sufra in the desert east of the sixth cataract of the Nile.
Gold, fused glass ring of Queen Amanishakheto, Meroitic, 35 BC-20 BC.; (right) Meroitic deity Sebiumeker
Queen Amanishaketo and her Treasures From Wad Ban Naqa
(left) Gold ring; The concluding scene of a sacred marriage is represented here, the crown prince between the king and queen, (right) Gold ring; An enthroned ruler holds a staff in each hand.
Amanishaketo was the daughter of a queen and the wife of a brother whom she survived. Her successor was her daughter, Amanitore, who is mentioned in the Bible (Acts 8:27).
This remarkable woman must have possessed vast wealth and power, considering the pyramid where she lay buried and the treasures that surrounded her in her death. In 1832 her pyramid at Wad Ban Naqa was leveled to the ground by the explorer Giuseppe Ferlini, then working in Meroe as a treasure hunter. Here was found her residence and several temples. Her mud brick palace is one of the largest identified to date. It measures some 61 meters in length and covers an area of some 3,700 squares meters. The ground floor contained over 60 rooms for various purposes. This palace originally had a second story as the remains of columns found on the ground floor indicate, and this may have contained an atrium, a design feature paralleled elsewhere.
Pyramid N6 of Queen Amanishaketo, before it was destroyed.
The treasure itself is remarkable for the variety of types and materials used. It contained ten bracelets, nine so-called shield rings, sixty-seven signet rings, two armbands, and an extraordinary number of loose amulets and elements belonging to necklaces and other articles. Most of the articles were created especially for Queen Amanishakheto, although a few were heirlooms, and almost all of the jewelry appears to have been created by Nubian artists in the Kingdom of Meroe.
References:Daily Life of the Nubians, Robert Steven Bianchi, Oct. 2004 and; Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, (1997)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Funerary Stela of Meteye
This Stela dates back to the 2nd to 3rd Centuries. It is has a reddish-white undercoat. It comes from Grave 275, Karanog. The stela is located in Cairo, Egyptian Museum JE40229.
The couple Meteye and Abakharta stand under the inner wings of the sun disk. Meteye wares her hair with a topknot and cornrows. This man may be either Meteye’s husband or father. (I am uncertain because the words ab-a can be interpreted as ‘[her] father’. If this is the correct reading aba Kharta would mean ‘her father Kharta’.)
The grave was excavated by Woolley-Randall-MacIver at Karanog. The skeleton in the grave was of a woman. The pointed breast on the figure indicate that she was a young women. Standing side by side suggest that this man was her husband. Since the grave contained only one skeleton we can imagine that Abakharta was depicted on this stela to show his devotion to his wife.
There are three sets of inscription on this stela. There are inscriptions in front of Meteye and Abakharta, and an inscription between the legs of Abakharta.
Reading from right to left beginning with the inscription between the legs of Abakharta, then the inscription before Abakharta and finally the one in front of Meteye we have the following: Inscription between Abakharta’s legs.
P .. š ….o ….
“Pray for the patron to commence……”
Inscription in front of the man:
Wosi .. ne. Sore… yi-ne. Abkharta… ke ….lo …..wi-ne... a…kh…m…še..
“ Isis the Good. Osiris the eternal. Abakharta gives permission (for) the offering of this Object of Respect (Meteye) to acquire greatness (and) protection.”
“Isis the good. Osiris the eternal. Meteye , renew (her) honor down the path (to) abundant alms giving. The patron [Meteye] has commenced the Rebirth”.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Tedeqen Funerary Tablet
Inscription under the gods:
[………] lo…. wi-ne ….šo ….tk ….te
Translation:
“Dispatch (this) Object of Respect [Tedeqen] to live and to reflect (on good)—may (it go forth).”
Inscription on the funerary tablet reading from left to right and around the tablet :
Wosi …i-ne …a…. šore ….. yi-ne ….tedeqen ….qo-ne …ah ..d …s-ne-l …. d …h … lo-ne… me …ň …tone …e ….ri-ne …..ke …. li-ne …..e … ri …ke …lo… ne … atom … lo ..ne ….el … h …..tene ….al …ml …ol
Translation
“Isis the Good, Osiris the eternal. Tedeqen to live good (and) to acquire a lasting legacy (of Good). The patron’s legacy (is for) the Kha’s transmigration , measure the Good Rebirth (now). Give withdrawal (to the Kha) for revitalization (and) exaltation. Register the sendoff (of the Kha) to invigorate the good offering (of Tedeqen). He is to be (re)born to transmit Good (as his) gift (to mankind). The Kha’s noble (re)birth (of a) grand soul.”
....
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Another Tedeqen Artifact:
Funerary stelae of Prince Tedeqen, circa 100-200 B.C.
Clyde could you translate the bottom of this stelae: Thanks
Offering Stela of Tedeqeň
Translation by Clyde Winters:
Woš-i-ne …Tdeqeň …ne …ĥ …ml …. ol … ħo ….lk …tene ..at …mlo …ne… p … rem … eš …. d …. o … tl … wi-ne … el …ĥ …tene ….ete …. eš …. d…. ot …. el … ĥ … tene …ĥe …. ra …. Ke-ne-l ….l …d …tene.
Translation
[Oh] Good Isis (give) Tedeqeň kha, grand inner heart (and) soul to behold the path of rebirth. The good inner heart prays to witness (its) manifestation. (This) bequeathal to open (and) elevate the Object of Respect (i.e., Tedeqeň) gift (of the) Kha’s rebirth (Oh Isis). You give the manifestation of the bequeathal prestige. The gift (of) the Kha’s (and the) external body’s rebirth . Indeed [Tedeqeň] revitalization (will) be the rebirth of the bequeathal (of the Kha).
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Head From a Royal Statute Sandstone From Gebel Barkal, Temple B 500, room B 514 Harvard University-MFA Boston Expedition, 1916, field no. 16-4-286 Meroitic, beginning of the Christian era Boston, Museum of Fine Arts 24.1797
This head was excavated in 1916, but only rediscovered in a storage magazine in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, in 1989. Of exemplary artistic quality, it makes a welcome addition to the corpus of Meroitic art. Traces of Egyptian blue are still preserved on the once inlaid eyes; the face appears to have been gilded. Above the brow a depression meant to take a uraeus is visible. The distinctive cheekbones and full lips give the face its "African" appearance. The findspot, directly in front of the sanctuaries of Great Amun Temple at Gebel Barka, support then statue's original locate" innermost temple area. This portion of the temple was restored by Natakamani and Amanitore beginning of the Christian era, and stylistic criteria point to a date in this period for the head. It is likely, then, that either King Natakame or Amanitore, great builders in several cities in the kingdom of Meroe, is represented in this extraordinary portrait. -- T. Kendall
From Meroe, town; Building KC 104 Excavations of the University of Calgary and the University of Khartoum (P. Shinnie) 1976, field no. 6682 Meroitic Khartoum, National Museum 24556
The hairstyle identifies this head as a female who, to judge from the over-life-size format, may have belonged to the royal family. The beard support at the chin is not unexpected, since Meroitic queens often wore the ceremonial beard as an emblem of their royal status. With its bulging eyes and full lips, the head belongs stylistically in the first to second century A.D. Additional clues may be expected from the forthcoming excavation report. -- T. Kendall
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hi Myra below is the decipherment of the Stela. I don’t know how to publish your picture of the artifact with the decipherment. Why don’t you copy the text below and place it below the artifact you published.
Offering Stela of Tedeqeň
Transliteration
Woš-i-ne …Tdeqeň …ne …ĥ …ml …. ol … ħo ….lk …tene ..at …mlo …ne… p … rem … eš …. d …. o … tl … wi-ne … el …ĥ …tene ….ete …. eš …. d…. ot …. el … ĥ … tene …ĥe …. ra …. Ke-ne-l ….l …d …tene.
Translation [Oh] Good Isis (give) Tedeqeň kha, grand inner heart (and) soul to behold the path of rebirth. The good inner heart prays to witness (its) manifestation. (This) bequeathal to open (and) elevate the Object of Respect (i.e., Tedeqeň) gift (of the) Kha’s rebirth (Oh Isis). You give the manifestation of the bequeathal prestige. The gift (of) the Kha’s (and the) external body’s rebirth . Indeed [Tedeqeň] revitalization (will) be the rebirth of the bequeathal (of the Kha).
You can learn more about the Meroitic religion from my article on Meroitic religion published at Arkamani see :
......
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Thanks Clyde. I'm most curious. How long did it take to translate that last one?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hi Myra
It didn't take that long to decipher the stela because most of the funerary inscriptions are formulaic in that they have a specific pattern in which they are written.
The Offering Tablets have the following pattern:
1. Invocation to the Gods
2. Name of deceased
3. Sometimes, the name of relative making the offering of the deceased person
4. The wish statement of the deceased requesting his/her passage to rebirth.
Often Anubis & Nephtys are depicted on the stela or tablet pouring libations.
I would estimate that it took me around 30-60 minutes to read the text. First I have to transliterate the text. This takes the most time because I am usually reading the text from photographs in books since I don't have access to the original text.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Hi Myra
It didn't take that long to decipher the stela because most of the funerary inscriptions are formulaic in that they have a specific pattern in which they are written.
The Offering Tablets have the following pattern:
1. Invocation to the Gods
2. Name of deceased
3. Sometimes, the name of relative making the offering of the deceased person
4. The wish statement of the deceased requesting his/her passage to rebirth.
Often Anubis & Nephtys are depicted on the stela or tablet pouring libations.
I would estimate that it took me around 30-60 minutes to read the text. First I have to transliterate the text. This takes the most time because I am usually reading the text from photographs in books since I don't have access to the original text.
Greetings:
That is VERY informative. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Dr. Winters.
Due to your translations, [past and present], I've been able to spot names of the Meroitic royal family to further my research. Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
myra
quote:Greetings:
That is VERY informative. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Dr. Winters.
Due to your translations, [past and present], I've been able to spot names of the Meroitic royal family to further my research.
I am glad I could help. Over the years I have deciphered many Meroitic inscriptions in the search for Meroitic "historical documents". Some years ago I heard of the Qasr Ibrim 1420 stela, which someone said mentioned Akinidad. This is a very important stela because it provided information on the death of Akinidad and noted that the city was once ruled by this prince.
I do not have permission to publish the stela. But parts of it I hope to publish in an article on Akinidad which will be published one day in Nubica et Ethiopia. Given the fact that this city was controlled both by the Romans and Meroites I am sure that there are other important documents at Qasr Ibrim on the Meroitic-Roman conflict. As a result I can't wait until more Meroitic documents are published from this site so I can see what other goodies are found among these Meroitic records.
......
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Great contributions here well worth bumping up.
Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
Wow. Dr. Winters, forgive me for asking a stupid question. The fact was that I thought I knew a little something about Ancient Egypt, Nubia, etc., till I came to this site: MAN, I am learning alot! This is my question: I thought that the ancient language of Meroe, Ancient Nubia, etc., wasn't decipherable. Now that I know that it is translatable, can you explain the details for me? Is it only the language from Ancient Meroe that is translatable, or can we read Nubian documents from before 1,000 B.C.E.? Thanks.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Israel: Wow. Dr. Winters, forgive me for asking a stupid question. The fact was that I thought I knew a little something about Ancient Egypt, Nubia, etc., till I came to this site: MAN, I am learning alot! This is my question: I thought that the ancient language of Meroe, Ancient Nubia, etc., wasn't decipherable. Now that I know that it is translatable, can you explain the details for me? Is it only the language from Ancient Meroe that is translatable, or can we read Nubian documents from before 1,000 B.C.E.? Thanks.
yes scholars could.kush used egyptian writing for thier documents in the egyptian new kindgom,later kerma before egypt conqured them and they used it after they free themselves from egypt after the new kingdom,but egyptian writing was use more so starting in the 8th century b.c.
THE first meriotic script used egyptian script for thier own language around 275b.c. but it was different,because it became a fully developed alphabet and it became more advanced once they created thier own cursive script around 180 b.c. and it advanced further later. egyptian writing was used once again for a short time along with this script in the early first century a.d.
meriotic not used after 440 a.d. anymore,and greek was used along with egytian coptic.
Early medieval nubia had thier own script again called old nubian,but most of the letters were in greek but there was three meriotic letters used in this script too.later arabic was used along with nubian,greek and coptic,so alot of scripts were used during the medieval period.In early modern times after 1504,arabic script was only used,but now in recent history the nubian script is back. So all of the writing after 440 a.d. could be fully understood and writing could understood before meriotic. SOME of THE meriotic writing could be understood,but most of it still can't be undestood,but slow progess is happening,but all of it could be read however,but for the time being most can't be understood yet.SCHOLARS are using computers and other ways to make the script fully understood today and hopefully there would be a full understanding of it.
edited
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Israel
quote:
Wow. Dr. Winters, forgive me for asking a stupid question. The fact was that I thought I knew a little something about Ancient Egypt, Nubia, etc., till I came to this site: MAN, I am learning alot! This is my question: I thought that the ancient language of Meroe, Ancient Nubia, etc., wasn't decipherable. Now that I know that it is translatable, can you explain the details for me? Is it only the language from Ancient Meroe that is translatable, or can we read Nubian documents from before 1,000 B.C.E.? Thanks.
Kenndo has already discussed the Nubian writing.
I have written a detailed grammar of Meroitic but it is being considered for publication so I can not give you a copy of this text.
You can find out more about my decipherment at the following sites:
Thanks Dr. Winters.....I hope that these discoveries will help to unveil the truth of our historical past. Salaam
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^Thanks for the support
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Anklet, Meroitic period, 100–250 BC Meroitic; from Faras, Lower Nubia, cemetery 1, grave 186 Bronze Gift of Oxford University Expedition to Nubia, 1926
Kushite artists of the Meroitic period were noted for their fine metalworking skills. The Museum owns none of the exquisite inlaid cloisonné and gold jewelry produced during this period, but this heavy bronze anklet with its finely incised decoration gives some idea of their talent for working bronze, a much harder metal than gold. - Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Meroitic royalty
Statue of Queen Shanakdakhete (170-150 BCE) ruling queen of Kush, and a male member of her family giving her royal power.
Her name is carved in a ruined temple where the earliest inscriptions in Meroitic hieroglyphic writing are found. Her pyramid at Meroe is one of the largest ever built for a Kushite ruler. It has a unique chapel with two rooms and two pylons. The chapel is among the most elaborately carved of any known. The scenes in the chapel show military campaigns to the south and the capture of numerous cattle and prisoners.
Red sandstone relief from the pyramid chapel of Queen Shanakdakhete
From Meroe, Nubia Meroitic Period
First female ruler of the Meroitic Period
The royal cemetery at Meroe has given the name 'Meroitic' to the later stages of rule by the Kushite kings. The Meroitic script has been deciphered, but the language is still not fully understood. This wall comes from one of the small steep-sided pyramids with chapels in which the rulers were buried. It was probably that of Queen Shanakdakhete, the first female ruler. She appears here enthroned with a prince, and protected by a winged Isis. In front of her are rows of offering bearers and also scenes of rituals including the judgement of the queen before Osiris.
The term 'Kush' or 'Kushite' refers to Nubian ruling powers. Nubian royalty were buried at el-Kurru, Nuri, Gebel Barkal, and Meroe. - The British Museum
Sandstone Meroitic Museum purchase: 1922.145
Prince Arikankharer Slaying His Enemies, 25-41 AD
Contemporary with early imperial Rome, the Meroitic civilization flourished along the fertile banks of the Nile River in the land of Kush in what is now the Sudan. This African dynasty traded not only with Egypt to the north but also with Greece, Rome, and peoples of the Near East. Consequently, official Meroitic art reflects the absorption of external influences adapted to serve local rulers.
Arikankharer belonged to the black royal house of Kush, whose capital was at Meroe. Although the crown prince died before he could come to power, this superbly carved, raised relief shows him as a vigorous, victorious conqueror. Behind him floats a female Winged Victory, brushing away flies, while between his legs a vicious dog mutilates a fallen enemy. The prince's father is King Natakamani. Distinctly Meroitic in style and detail are the compact proportions, round head, curly hair, oversized eyes, flabby neck, and broad shoulders of the prince as well as the portrayal of fear in the faces of the vanquished. The body is shown with the imperial stride, and with the "slaying the ememy" pose which were found at other Meroitic archological sites. - Worcester Art Museum, Maine
King Natakamani
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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
Mr Winters i am a linguist as well and i cant help but to see the similarities with the Siniatic script as well as the Ethiopic/Sabean with the Meroitic i was wondering since u have more experience with merotic than i do but there characters seem similar. In all of those Tablets is see the Hebrew Shin which is a W as well as the S and the N in Ethiopic i remember we were talking about the Meroitic and u mention that it was similar to the Dravidian Languages.
Mr. Winters one more thing i heard that Latin Greek German & English come from sanskrit is this true.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hikuptah
quote: Mr Winters i am a linguist as well and i cant help but to see the similarities with the Siniatic script as well as the Ethiopic/Sabean with the Meroitic i was wondering since u have more experience with merotic than i do but there characters seem similar. In all of those Tablets is see the Hebrew Shin which is a W as well as the S and the N in Ethiopic i remember we were talking about the Meroitic and u mention that it was similar to the Dravidian Languages.
Mr. Winters one more thing i heard that Latin Greek German & English come from sanskrit is this true.
First of all Latin , Greek and German did not come from Sanskrit. Sanskrit is a lingua franca, It was used in Northern India to provide a means of communication between the diverse people who lived in the region.
The Sanskrit -Indo-European language connection comes from the fact that when Sanskrit was invented there were Greek speakers already present in India. This is proven by Panini, author of one of the earliest Sanskrit grammar mention of these people. As a result, the relationship between Sanskrit and Greek is probably the result of Greeks and Indians living in a former state of bilingualism resulting from Alexander the Great's conquest of South Asia.
You are right about the similarities between Siniatic script, Ethiopic and the other writing systems.
In the graphic above you can clearly see how all of the signs in this illustration from throughout Africa and Asia are related.
In many cases, these signs have the same sound. The oldest examples of these signs come from the Sahara .
The authors of these writing systems the Dravidians, Elamites, Sumerians , Egyptians, Manding, Xia spoke similar and related languages. I call these people Proto-Saharans. Below is an article that discusses the Proto-Saharans
This results from the fact that the history of African writing is much more complicated than the traditional view that writing began in Africa with Egyptian hieroglyphics.
I provide a detailed discussion of this tradition of African literacy at the following website: Middle African Writing System
Read this paper and then maybe we can discuss this matter further.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^So in other words-- Sanskrit, Ethiopic, and Manding are all related both in script and in actual linguistics.
Whatever you say, Clyde. LOL Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
Mr.Winters so how did this writing system reach Ethiopia and are the ethiopians really ancient Saharans.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
No, because according to Winters the ancient Saharans were Mande peoples who spread their languages as far east as India. All of this is rubbish. I don't think there is any evidence of the ancient Saharans migrating into Ethiopia, let alone Mande speakers of West Africa! And non have anything to do with Dravidian or even Indo-European Sanskrita of India!
Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
So Djehuti no ancient Saharan ever migrated into Modern Day Ethiopia but they have migrated to Sudan i disagree with that.
So the ancient people of the Sahara were are they know and are they older than modern peoples of Sudan.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hikuptah
quote: Mr.Winters so how did this writing system reach Ethiopia and are the ethiopians really ancient Saharans.
I believe that the Ethiopians were ancient Saharans. The Ethiopians probably learned this writing in the Sahara and used it to write their own language.
The original writing system of the Saharans was a syllabary. The Ethiopians modified the syllabary into a semi-syllabary/"alphabetic" script to write numerous Semitic languages: Themudic, Sabaean, Ge'ez .
I prefer to call the Semitic speakers of Africa, Punites since many of them live in the area the Egyptians called Punt.
The people of Punt lived in an area stretching from the Eastern desert of Egypt, eastward to the Red Sea, and Central Africa. These people spoke Puntite/Semitic languages. This group of Africoids lived in the Eastern Desert and the Red Sea Hills. Whereas most Africans are clean shaven the Puntites preferred to wear beards. The boats of these Easterners are found engraved at prehistoric sites in Mesopotamia. In the Egyptian records the standard of the Easterners was the Set animal.
It also appears that Puntite speakers lived in the Proto-Sahara in modern Libya. As early as 2500 B.C. , Puntite people migrated into North Africa. Josephus maintained in Antiquities, that the people of Punt founded Libya. The Bible says: "...[T]he Libyans that handle the shield" (Jeremiah 46:9). "Persia, Ethiopia and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet" (Ezekiel 38:5).
This passage from the Bible, makes it clear that many people of Persia and modern Ethiopia originally had lived in Libya. This supports the Bible's listing of the Libyans , Persians and Ethiopians as analogous ethnic groups.
The Puntites are mentioned in Egyptian or Kemetic literature as invading this area around 2400 B.C., according to the text of Herkhut,found at Aswan, written during the VIth Dynasty of Egypt.
The Egyptian traditions tell us that there was a struggle between Set and Horus which took place in Nubia. This story indicates that in ancient times Semitic-speaking people formerly lived in Nubia; this explains the Egyptian identification of Punt or Pwene as "the land of the gods" (Ullendorf 1973).
This view is supported by the archaeological evidence that support a close relationship between the Puntites/ Ethiopians and Nubians. For example, according to Fattovich, the pottery from Tihama Cultural Complex and other Ethiopian sites shows similarities to the Kerma and C-Group pottery. Given this connection between Ethiopian civilizations and civilizations in Nubia, make it clear that the Ethiopians would have been familiar with the ancient writing system used in this area discussed above.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The earliest suggested dates for the Bronze Age cultures of S.W Arabia go back exactly to the mid-2nd milennium dates where we find the Tihama coastal culture established, probably as a colonization from the African shores, where a pastoral group probably related to the Pan-Grave people (Miluhhans?) was extending their control over the Gash culture and towards the Atbara to Meroe. (This is the same date given by the ancients for the settlement of the Blemmyan "Indians" in the Nile Valley). The pillbox or cheesecake burial monuments which we know from Oman and from OK Lower Nubia both starting from the late 3d milennium BC can be traced across Dhofar, the Gara mts, to Hadramaut, Qataban, Ausan, Aden, and the Wadi Jawf to Najran and Main areas, the Asir & the Tihama.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: So Djehuti no ancient Saharan ever migrated into Modern Day Ethiopia but they have migrated to Sudan i disagree with that.
So the ancient people of the Sahara were are they know and are they older than modern peoples of Sudan.
I'm sure there were some migrations, but they were relatively limited. Migration tended to go in the other direction in the Holocene (spread of E3b), and Saharan influences are limited to some pottery influences on the Tihama cultural complex and Gash group (as Winters said above). There were no major migrations during this period, however.
As to writing, Mr. Winters is mistaken. I'm not aware of any ancient syllabic Saharan writing system. The Ethiopian writing system ultimately comes from the Egyptian hieroglyphs through the Proto-Sinaitic script. This further developed into what is called the Epigraphic South Arabian script (but the first examples of this script are found in Ethiopia and Eritrea, not Yemen), and then into Ge'ez, which became an "Abugida" (a semi-syllabic script where each consonant can be given an inherent vowel) in the 4th century, like the Indian Brahmic scripts (which may have been an inspiration).
Proto-Sinaitic probably would have spread to Ethiopia/Eritrea and Yemen (the Tihama) along the coastal area during the 2nd millenium BC (after the 1st intermediate period when Proto-Sinaitic might have formed) due to trade with Punt.
One scholar's view (same ANE list):
quote:Moreover the question of the spread of the language is probably quite different than the spread of the alphabet. The new dating for the latter (the end of the 2nd mil, or even if it's the very early lst mil) strongly suggests it travelled via the sea trade through Adulis and the coastal Tihama culture to Subr near Aden and on to Hadramaut . The highlands simply were not involved in much interregional trade at that time, and the oases cities and the camel trade were only just picking up momentum. Whereas the coastal areas had been in touch with Punt and Dhofar and possibly Oman (therefore indirectly with Eg & Msp) for milennia. (Infra)
Read p. 93-95 in Edens, C. & Wilkinson, T.J. (1998). “Southwest Arabia during the Holocene,” in J. of World Prehistory. 12, section called Epigraphic Chronology, in which they sum up the archaeologists' raising of the dates for the appearance of writing in the highlands. At Ad-Durayb 30 km W of Marib de Maigret finds 3 inscribed sherds in startum B (dated 1050-830 BC) and they call this 12th-9th c. At Hajar ar -Rayhani, the largest town in Wadi Jubah, Glanzman finds 4 inscribed sherds from the 2nd Occup Phase, which consists of ashy layers without architecture and is dated by RC to the early lst milennium or slightly earlier., which is called 11th-8th c BC. The conclusion, Edens and Wilkinson, op cit p 95: "The stratigraphic context of these inscribed sherds establish that a writing system appeared in S. Arabia perhap as early as the 12-11th c BC, seemingly well before the first identified monumental inscriptions (perhaps early the 8th c BC). This conclusion requires that the South Arabian writing system was borrowed from northern antecedents as early as the Late Bronze Age."
But this would mean a gap of 3-400 years! If instead we chose the lower dates, writing could have come as late as the 9th c. and inscriptions started as early as the 8th.. doesn't that make a lot more sense? Imagine us having an alphabet in the Renaissance and never cutting an inscription till today! A stray merchant from a literate culture can leave behind a sherd or an insignia without that meaning that the local culture has become literate. Although apparently some have put a 13th c date on the time of divergence of the ESA alphabet from its northern ancestors based on factors of consonant coalescence in the N. not shared in by ESA, I'm not clear why this means this system would have had to have REACHED S. Arabia that soon, for it could have spent quite a while in the Hejaz, in Punt, or in some intermediate home before pushing on to colonize the inland oases of Saba. (What ever happened to Minaean Dedan? as an earlier more northerly stage of this culture?)
This is the real beauty of Punt having leapfrogged from Somaliland, past the Yemen to land in the Suakin to Adulis area. Why would W.Semitic languages (or alphabets!) coming from the north skip this area, go straight to the Yemen, then come back here as colonizers?? What is the evidence for such an improbability , more than the old fixation that the Queen of Saba or Sabaean merchants introduced Semitic languages (and "civilization") to Ethiopia..
Here what Edens and Wilkinson, op cit. have to say about the implications of these geo-chronological paradigmatic shifts. After examining the new higher chronology pushing back the origins of writing in Saba to the end of the LBA , they go on to draw the important conclusion: significant contact with the Levant at this early date would not have been by camel caravan but by sea, via the land of Punt. Here's an exerpt from their section on the Tihama in the Iron Age:
p 105 "Its variety of exotic goods, including a relative abundance of metalwork, distinguishes the Subr-Sihi complex [the Eastern end of Zarins' & Kitchen's "Afro-Tihama culture"] from the situation elsewhere in SW Arabia during the late 2nd milennium and, presumably, reflects active seaborne connections with neighboring regions. The implication of maritime traffic connecting SW Arabia with the African coast at this time suggests involvement of communities of the Tihama with Punt, well known from the Egyptian records. Although the distinctive Subr-Sihi pottery appears as far away as the Hadramawt (Zarins & Zahrani, 1985, p 95-6) early maritime trade would have left largely untouched highland and desert fringe communities, helping to account for the air of greater prosperity in the large coastal communities early in the Iron Age."
In case you think these civilizing influences imparted from the Eg-Punt trade (writing, monumental architecture, and even the introduction of Semitic -- if Proto-Semitic wasn't already in the area since the Ubaid!! )simply by-passed the Ethiopian plateau, they have already made it clear that this area was an integral part of this interregional communication : After examining its connections to C Group, Pan Grave, etc. African ceramics: "The Subr-Sihi group may also be related to pre- Axumite materials in Ethiopia, where burnished wares with incised geometric motifs and several vessel forms bear comparison with materials from the lower levels at Matara and from the Ona culture in Hamasen (refs)." (p 105).
So the odds are that the alphabet and W. Semitic language reached coastal Eritrea before it reached Yemen, certainly before it reached Highland Yemen. What northerners needed from S. Arabia was really only the frankincense of Dhofar. Gold, ivory, timber, all the rest of it, were much nearer and more easily available on the African side of the sea. So the archaeology of the Yemen highlands, as well as the oasis states which rose to prominence in the lst milennium, indicates that these inland areas had very little contact with the outer world at all before the early first milennium, by comparison with the age-old cosmopolitan commerce of the coastal areas, which were the terminus of the sea routes from Dhofar. (or the Hadramaut as the terminus of a land route?)
There are other good discussions in this article about why the camel caravans were only just beginning at this time, and that evidence of camel bones don't become significant till the mid lst milennium, paralleled by the evidence of S Arabian script, cuboid incense burners, etc. in the S Levant, also not till the mid 1st. Thus you can't have it both ways. If you want "civilizing" Sabaeans in Ethiopia transmitting such things as writing, monumental architecture, etc. you've got to keep it in the mid lst milennium. If you want to push the Sabaean "civilization" backward to the end of the 2nd milennium (by processes which even Kitchen admits are highly hypothetical) then you have to admit the "civilizing" influences arriving by sea, via the Ethiopian coast. So the question of who is the donor and who the recipient of these common cultural traits is still up in the air, especially as D'MT sites dated by their epigraphy will slide back along with their cohorts in Yemen. The real problem, again, is that the key node in the network, the Eritrean coast, the harbors of Punt, Adulis, Gabaza, Sabea, etc. have not been excavated or are covered by modern cities.
Note that despite what is said above, the Highlands were part of the Tihama cultural complex (above he says that parts of them, like Ona and Hamasien may have been, but it seems that actually most of the Tigray plateau was involved).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Yom
quote:
As to writing, Mr. Winters is mistaken. I'm not aware of any ancient syllabic Saharan writing system. The Ethiopian writing system ultimately comes from the Egyptian hieroglyphs through the Proto-Sinaitic script. This further developed into what is called the Epigraphic South Arabian script (but the first examples of this script are found in Ethiopia and Eritrea, not Yemen), and then into Ge'ez, which became an "Abugida" (a semi-syllabic script where each consonant can be given an inherent vowel) in the 4th century, like the Indian Brahmic scripts (which may have been an inspiration).
Ancient Saharan Writing
Qued Mertoutek Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Yom
quote:
As to writing, Mr. Winters is mistaken. I'm not aware of any ancient syllabic Saharan writing system. The Ethiopian writing system ultimately comes from the Egyptian hieroglyphs through the Proto-Sinaitic script. This further developed into what is called the Epigraphic South Arabian script (but the first examples of this script are found in Ethiopia and Eritrea, not Yemen), and then into Ge'ez, which became an "Abugida" (a semi-syllabic script where each consonant can be given an inherent vowel) in the 4th century, like the Indian Brahmic scripts (which may have been an inspiration).
Please provide examples of this alleged transition from Heiroglyphic writing to Sinaitic.
.
Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
So Mr. Winters and Yom Is it safe to Say that People populated the Sahara before they Populated East AFrica Ethipia Eritrea Somalia Sudan. From the Sahara AFricans spread into West East South then spread into Arabia then Asia.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
No, it's the other way around. East Africa first, Sahara later.
I will respond to Mr. Winters later, when I have more time (could be in a week, though). Note that the transition from Heiroglphic to Proto-Sinaitic is pretty certain and widely accepted by the archaeological community due to the similarity of shapes. When I have more free time I'll provide some citations.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Yom
quote:
No, it's the other way around. East Africa first, Sahara later.
What archaeological evidence do you possess to support this hypothesis?
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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Yom
quote:
No, it's the other way around. East Africa first, Sahara later.
What archaeological evidence do you possess to support this hypothesis?
.
This is based on genetics, which has been thoroughly discussed at Egyptsearch in other threads.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This genetic evidence relates to 25,000-60,000 ybp. How does this genetic evidence relate to the period between 3000-1200 BC, when the earliest urban cultures and civilizations appear in the Sahara and spread to Ethiopia?
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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This genetic evidence relates to 25,000-60,000 ybp. How does this genetic evidence relate to the period between 3000-1200 BC, when the earliest urban cultures and civilizations appear in the Sahara and spread to Ethiopia?
.
No one's talking about cultures or civilization, here. I'm saying that people spread to the Sahara from East Africa mainly in the period 25,000-10,000 BP. Of course this also happened between 25kya and 60 kya when the area was [i]first[/b] populated, but that's not what I'm talking about.
What you are talking about is cultures and complexes, which is a completely different subject altogether (and I don't propose that these things were introduced from East Africa).
Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
So Cultures and Complexes started off in the Sahara first than moved to the rest of Africa but why didnt these africans who were in East Africa first create cultures and complexes why did they need to start once they got to the Sahara.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Meroitic – an Afroasiatic language? Kirsty Rowan, Linguistics School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London, Working Papers in Linguistics Vol. 14 (2006): 169-206
Conclusion from article:
Crucially, this investigation highlights that within the field of Meroitic research many assumptions that have been taken as factual have to be re-examined, deconstructed and verified. The case in point is the investigation into an affiliation with a related language, which has consistently focused upon Nilo-Saharan languages with no fundamental results. Hintze’s (1955) refutation of Zhylarz’s (1930) data was interpreted as refuting the overall premise, further Griffith’s (1911) statement that there are no ‘Semitic’ consonants in Meroitic has led researchers to conclude that if there are no ‘Semitic’ consonants in Meroitic then Meroitic is not an Afroasiatic language. This paper has contributed to this line of research by specifically outlining that there is no strong evidence against Meroitic not being a member of Afroasiatic, and that on the contrary, the investigation into consonantal compatibility restrictions shows a strong possibility for its inclusion, as this phonological process is a distinctive trait amongst Afroasiatic languages. This paper does not make any claims as to the likeliest individual candidate for relatedness with Meroitic, but hopes to redirect this research with promising results.
Winters, Clyde, A. (1984) ‘A note on Tokharian and Meroitic’ Meroitic, Newsletter, No. 23. Paris. 18-21.
Dr. Winters what is your opinion about this article Meroitic – an Afroasiatic language?
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
It is interesting, to note that Rowan discusses Meroitic within 6 pages, while the paper is 38 pages long.
Rowan attempts to imply that a typological relationship exists between Meroitic and Afro-Asiatic due to alleged consonantal compatibility restrictions. Although this is her opinion I don't believe that it is supported by the evidence, since she uses imagined Meroitic terms as her data. Since the terms Rowan uses in her analysis are "made up" she can say they have any feature she chooses and be "right".
Moreover, finding only one feature common to Meroitic and AA languages does not support a connection.
The major problem with the thesis is that Rowan failed to discuss Meroitic based upon the agreed upon vocabulary of Meroitic. Failure to do this has led her to make conclusions that can not be supported by the evidence since some words she uses as examples in her paper are based on conjecture or are hypothectical/imagined Merotic terms. Moreover, the failure to acknowledge that most Meroitic consonants are probably associated with a schwa, except when a Meroitic vowel is joined to a consonant e.g., -i.-e, - a, makes any discussion of Meroitic phonology suspect.
Failure to present examples from agreed upon Meroitic lexical items, especially given the clear Meroitic examples of Egyptian loan words in Meroitic is quite strange. This is further compounded by the fact that she fails to provide a cognate language to read the script and therefore provide a firm foundation for her spurious conclusions.
In general the paper is a good discussion of the state of research relating to Afro-Asiatic. But in my opinion it offers little support for the posibility that Meroitic is related to Afro- Asiatic, or Nilo-Saharan for that matter, given the phantom/imagined words she provides as Meroitic lexical items.
Publication of this article, given its flaws make it clear that Rowan has a powerful advisor, given the fact that the abstract makes it clear that she is not providing any direction on a possible candidate for relatedness with Meroitic. Publication of this article adds little to the previous scholarship on Meroitic, eventhough its publication will make her a new "expert" on Meroitic.
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Thank you Dr. Winters.
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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^Winters' hypothesis makes little sense. Modern descendants of the Meroites speak Nilo-Saharan languages today which they have likely spoken since before the Arab invasion. If the Meroites didn't speak Nilo-Saharan nor Afro-asiatic then what did they speak?
Perhaps a language isoloate? All of this was discussed before
And please don't tell me they spoke Manding!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Meroitic was a lingua franca. It is closely related to the Niger-Congo group. The Meroites probably spoke a Niger-Congo language.
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
I challenged you on this issue before, and you were never able to make an adequate come back. However, to put it simply, if Meroitic language wasn't a native Nile Valley language, but just a lingua franca, then which other places spoke Meroitic language outside of the Nile Valley, and what is your evidence of this?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Modern descendants of the Meroites speak Nilo-Saharan languages today which they have likely spoken since before the Arab invasion
And they completely lack the genetic lineages found in Dravidians....who in turn completely lack lineages native to Africa.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote: I challenged you on this issue before, and you were never able to make an adequate come back. However, to put it simply, if Meroitic language wasn't a native Nile Valley language, but just a lingua franca, then which other places spoke Meroitic language outside of the Nile Valley, and what is your evidence of this?
quote: Modern descendants of the Meroites speak Nilo-Saharan languages today which they have likely spoken since before the Arab invasion
This is conjecture. There is evidence that Niger-Congo was also spoken in this area. What evidence exist supporting the continued presence of descendants of the Meroites in the Sudan.
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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar
quote: I challenged you on this issue before, and you were never able to make an adequate come back. However, to put it simply, if Meroitic language wasn't a native Nile Valley language, but just a lingua franca, then which other places spoke Meroitic language outside of the Nile Valley, and what is your evidence of this?
It is in the link that you posted. Now, how about answering the question you just evaded!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote:
I challenged you on this issue before, and you were never able to make an adequate come back. However, to put it simply, if Meroitic language wasn't a native Nile Valley language, but just a lingua franca, then which other places spoke Meroitic language outside of the Nile Valley, and what is your evidence of this?
First of all I never said that Meroitic was spoken outside of the Nile Valley. It was a lingua franca that allowed the diverse people of the Meroitic Empire to communicate in a common language.
I have never argued that the Kushites abandoned their native language or that Meroitic was spoken anywhere except in the Meroitic Sudan. I have argued, and supported with evidence the fact that the Kushites. never wrote their inscriptions in a Kushite language.
They used lingua francas to unite the diverse speakers in the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations first Egyptian and later Meroitic. This is supported by the abundance of Kushite documents written in Egyptian before the introduction of Meroitic.
As I point out in post below, the Napatans and Meroites wrote their inscriptions in Egyptian until the Egyptians became a sizable minority in the Meroitic Empire. The Kushites had a tradition of using a non-Kushite language to record their administrative and political religious activities due to the numerous and diverse subjects from different tribes they ruled. Since the Meroitic and Napatan documents were written in Egyptian there is no lexical evidence of the languages spoken by the Kushites and other groups in the inscriptions left by these people.
Below is my original answer to this question. What don't you understand about this answer.
quote:
Literacy in the Napatan and Meroitic Civilizations
Ancient Kush extended across a large part of the Sudan. In this vast region encompassing the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations there were many different nationalities, that spoke a myriad of languages.
Due to the ethnic diversity of the Napatans, it is clear that at least from the Napatan period of Kush the rulers of the empire had decided that no single language spoken in the empire would be used to record political, administrative and religious information. To maintain an equilibrium within and among the Napatan nationalities Egyptian was used as the lingua franca of the empire. The leaders of the Napatan empire probably used Egyptian because it was an international language, and few Kushites were of Egyptian ethnic origin.
Egyptian remained the lingua franca for the Kushites during the Napatan and early Meroitic periods in Kushite history. After the Assyrians defeated the Egyptians the ethnic composition of the Kushite empire began to change. As a result, many Egyptians began to migrate into Kushite, to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other political and military conflicts after the Assyrians led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deserters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testify to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
The Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign domination the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population.
After the Egyptians became a sizable minority in Kush, the Kushites abandoned Egyptian as a lingua franca. Egyptian was replaced by the Meroitic writing.
Due to the fact that Meroite leaders were trying maintain unity within the Meroitic Confederacy/Empire they did not record any ethnic lexical items in the Meroitic inscriptions , that I have read so far, except ethnonyms and toponyms.
Now explain to me what's not understandable about this answer?
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
First of all I never said that Meroitic was spoken outside of the Nile Valley. It was a lingua franca that allowed the diverse people of the Meroitic Empire to communicate in a common language.
Okay then, I can agree with that, given that you aren't implying that Meriotic isn't a native Nile Valley language.
quote:Clyde:
Below is my original answer to this question. What don't you understand about this answer
quote:
Literacy in the Napatan and Meroitic Civilizations
Ancient Kush extended across a large part of the Sudan. In this vast region encompassing the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations there were many different nationalities, that spoke a myriad of languages.
Due to the ethnic diversity of the Napatans, it is clear that at least from the Napatan period of Kush the rulers of the empire had decided that no single language spoken in the empire would be used to record political, administrative and religious information. To maintain an equilibrium within and among the Napatan nationalities Egyptian was used as the lingua franca of the empire. The leaders of the Napatan empire probably used Egyptian because it was an international language, and few Kushites were of Egyptian ethnic origin.
Egyptian remained the lingua franca for the Kushites during the Napatan and early Meroitic periods in Kushite history. After the Assyrians defeated the Egyptians the ethnic composition of the Kushite empire began to change. As a result, many Egyptians began to migrate into Kushite, to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other political and military conflicts after the Assyrians led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deserters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testify to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
The Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign domination the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population.
After the Egyptians became a sizable minority in Kush, the Kushites abandoned Egyptian as a lingua franca. Egyptian was replaced by the Meroitic writing.
Due to the fact that Meroite leaders were trying maintain unity within the Meroitic Confederacy/Empire they did not record any ethnic lexical items in the Meroitic inscriptions , that I have read so far, except ethnonyms and toponyms.
Now explain to me what's not understandable about this answer?
.
What is there not to understand? You didn't provide answer to my question the first time around when it was asked here, until just now; what part of that didn't you understand?
As far as the passage is concerned, I would like to point out that, there are indications that Kushites had used their own languages for official purposes as well, but just used Egyptic script as medium to write it, i.e. prior to developing their own script [influenced by Demotic script], the "Meroitic" script.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote:
As far as the passage is concerned, I would like to point out that, there are indications that Kushites had used their own languages for official purposes as well, but just used Egyptic script as medium to write it, i.e. prior to developing their own script [influenced by Demotic script], the "Meroitic" script.
This is news to me. Please provide us with a discussion of the Kushite language you claim was recorded for official purposes in the Egyptian script, especially the Kushite lexical items contained in these texts.
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I have never argued that the Kushites abandoned their native language or that Meroitic was spoken anywhere except in the Meroitic Sudan. I have argued, and supported with evidence the fact that the Kushites. never wrote their inscriptions in a Kushite language.
They used lingua francas to unite the diverse speakers in the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations first Egyptian and later Meroitic. This is supported by the abundance of Kushite documents written in Egyptian before the introduction of Meroitic.
I see that you modified your response, after I had responded to the original format. Clyde, there is no need to pretend that this is where the point of our disagreement lay, for this is the reason I asked the question, which you just responded to. The idea of a Kushitic lingua franca is nothing new here, as you can see from my own earlier post in the following, so there is no reason for me to question that:
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
The Kushites were more ethnically heterogenous than their lower so-called "Nubian" counterparts, as can readily be seen in Kemetian art. Now, as the likes of Claude Rilly have pointed out, there are clues as to Meroitic being a spoken language in the Nile Valley long before the corresponding script was adopted for it. **With these different ethnic groups, it would make sense that the Kerma social complex, from the start was able to amalgamate the related language groups of its societal occupants under a regional/Nile Valley lingua franca.** It would seem that after the decline of Meroe, that the said Nilo-Saharan 'affiliated' lingua franca broke down as the region became increasingly subjected to foreign invasions, for example, Afrasan speakers from southwest Asia, European imperialists, and groups from west Saharan regions. On that backdrop, elements of the [defunct] Meroitic script and Kushitic names on Egyptian papyri come out as being related, and linguistic reconstructions done, as that done by Mr. Rilly, show 'relationship' with several languages now spoken in the region. What is your thoughts on this?
Our point of disagreement was the origins of 'Meroitic' script, and its language family affiliation.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Supercar
quote:
As far as the passage is concerned, I would like to point out that, there are indications that Kushites had used their own languages for official purposes as well, but just used Egyptic script as medium to write it, i.e. prior to developing their own script [influenced by Demotic script], the "Meroitic" script.
This is news to me. Please provide us with a discussion of the Kushite language you claim was recorded for official purposes in the Egyptian script, especially the Kushite lexical items contained in these texts.
Not sure why it is news to you, as it has been pointed out to you in the very link you posted, of an earlier discussion on the subject. In particular, this piece communicated the idea:
From Claude Rilly, courtesy of ARKAMANI Sudan Journal of Archaeology and Anthropology; An Arabic/English Review on Archaeological and Anthropological Research in the Sudan:
Meroitic was the language of the successive kingdoms of Kush. It was not written before the last stage of the civilization of Kush, the so-called « Kingdom of Meroe ». However, there is evidence for a much earlier date for the appearance of this language (Rilly, 8th Nilo-Saharan Conference, Hamburg, 2001), although it was not yet written with a script of its own. A list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC.[I assume the one provided below]
The problem is that you don't pay attention to detail, when you are busy trying to propagate your own viewpoints...usually questionable ones at that.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Judging from his past posts, it seems Winters claims the Meorites to be different from Kushites even though all evidence both historical and material show that the Meroitic culture was founded by Kushites and so their language had to be a form of Kushite.
Winters declares the Meroitic language to be Niger-Congo, and while it certainly is possible, exactly how likely is this scenerio. We know that the only languages of the Niger-Congo family spoken in Sudan are those of the Kordofanian group found in western Sudan. Winters, are you therefore proposing these languages to be Kordofanian? I hope you aren't saying they are Manding!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote: A list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC.
The problem is that you don't pay attention to detail, when you are busy trying to propagate your own viewpoints...usually questionable ones at that.
This has nothing to do with detail. It has to do with the absence of Kushite langauge material.
We have always been aware of Kushite/Meroitic names. These names can not provide insight into the Meroitic language.
They can not provide insight into the Meroitic language because they were not written as a bilingual text. The text only records Kushite names.
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar
quote: A list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC.
We have always been aware of Kushite/Meroitic names. These names can not provide insight into the Meroitic language.
.
Use your common sense at least; why one would need a lingua franca, if it weren't important for official use? Moreover, you acknowledged that the Kushites wouldn't have abandoned their own language, which would have been this 'lingua franca', and now you contradict yourself. The Kushites weren't under Egyptic control; they were for the most part, an autonomous polity throughout much of the dynastic period. So again, why would Kushitic elites need to speak Egyptian to their own people?...I can understand if they used 'Egyptian' as a communication line with Egyptians to the north, but not for their own polity [and general populace], when the idea of a lingua franca for Kushites would have been developed in the first place for this purpose. The names show that the language was in use quite early on, and that is the point. The rest should follow, via common sense.
quote:Clyde:
They can not provide insight into the Meroitic language because they were not written as a bilingual text. The text only records Kushite names.
Duh, it is an "Egyptian" papyrus!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote: Use your common sense at least; why one would need a lingua franca, if it weren't important for official use? Moreover, you acknowledged that the Kushites wouldn't have abandoned their own language, which would have been this 'lingua franca', and now you contradict yourself. The Kushites weren't under Egyptic control; they were for the most part, an autonomous polity throughout much of the dynastic period. So again, why would Kushitic elites need to speak Egyptian to their own people?...I can understand if they used 'Egyptian' as a communication line with Egyptians to the north, but not for their own polity [and general populace], when the idea of a lingua franca for Kushites would have been developed in the first place for this purpose. The names show that the language was in use quite early on, and that is the point. The rest should follow, via common sense.
quote:Clyde:
They can not provide insight into the Meroitic language because they were not written as a bilingual text. The text only records Kushite names.
Duh, it is an "Egyptian" papyrus!
Yes it is an Egyptian papyrus, not a Kushite papyrus. Keep this fact in mind.
As a result, except for the Kushite names in the text, the entire text was written in Egyptian and read in Egyptian--not Kushite.
I can write a story and give the characters Native American names, use of the names tell us very little about the language spoken by the Native American. Use of Kushite names in this story only tell us there were characters in the story of Kushite origin nothing more.
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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Yes it is an Egyptian papyrus, not a Kushite papyrus. Keep this fact in mind.
As a result, except for the Kushite names in the text, the entire text was written in Egyptian and read in Egyptian--not Kushite.
I believe you are misdirecting that post; it is you who didn't seem to have noticed this, I guess, until now. Can't be emphasized enough: pay attention to detail.
quote: I can write a story and give the characters Native American names, use of the names tell us very little about the language spoken by the Native American.
If "Native American" names are 'distinctive' of an indigenous language, as indicated by your terminology, my friend, how can it not reflect a language?
quote:Clyde:
Use of Kushite names in this story only tell us there were characters in the story of Kushite origin nothing more.
You always miss the obvious points, whether through intellectual inadequacy or purposefulness; continuity between the Kushitic names and the Meroitic. See post above, for more 'obvious' insights that evaded you.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote: If "Native American" names are 'distinctive' of an indigenous language, as indicated by your terminology, my friend, how can it not reflect a language?
It is clear you lack any critical reasoning. A name is simply a word and reflect only a name unless the name is interpreted in the language from whence it came.
For example, Michael is biblical name. Its roots lay in Hebrew. Yet the average person does not know the meaning of the word Michael unless they have studied Hebrew.
The average joe names their son Michael because to them it sounds nice. For these people what can they learn about Hebrew from reading this name, unless they know Hebrew and the meaning of the word Michael ="god like".
To these people its just a pretty name from the Bible, that they chose to name their child. Unless they know Hebrew they wouldn't even know how the word was contructed and I guarantee that just by knowing the name Michael, they could not converse in Hebrew. Given this reality your claim about knowing a language through a name must be a joke or evidence of a juvenile mind or intellectual inadequacy.
The same can be said for the names in the papyrus. They may be Kushite, but they tell us nothing about the Kushite language unless the author translates these names into Egyptian, and even then we only know the meaning of these names--not the entire language which can be made up of thousands of words.
Please explain how these terms provide us insight into the Kushite language. Also give us the meanings of these names which you believe can provide us with an understanding of the Kushite language. The reason we can read many Meroitic names is the fact that elements of the names include the names of Egyptian dieties or Kushite dieties mentioned by the Egyptians . Without this knowledge the names would be silent. It provides us with knowledge of personal names, but very little in the way of language.
To study a language you need bilingual text or the cognate language of a dead language as in the case of Coptic=Egyptian. Names alone will not provide anyone with keen insight into a spoken or written language dead or alive.
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar
quote: If "Native American" names are 'distinctive' of an indigenous language, as indicated by your terminology, my friend, how can it not reflect a language?
It is clear you lack any critical reasoning. A name is simply a word and reflect only a name unless the name is interpreted in the language from whence it came.
Names are only just that, and have no language affiliation; you are off your rocker! For instance you say:
quote:Clyde:
For example, Michael is biblical name. Its roots lay in Hebrew. Yet the average person does not know the meaning of the word Michael unless they have studied Hebrew.
How do you know its roots lay in "Hebrew". Is "Hebrew" not a language?
quote:Clyde:
Given this reality your claim about knowing a language through a name must be a joke or evidence of a juvenile mind or intellectual inadequacy.
Your 'reality' is not always in touch with 'reality' of the natural world, if you know what I mean. Sheer intellectual breakdown on your part to assume that names have no linguistic basis, and then go on to casually speak of "Native American" names, and names of "Hebrew" origins: how on earth would you make such claims in the first place, if names aren't distinctive of languages of origin? How does a "Native American" name become one in the first place, duh?
quote:Clyde:
Please explain how these terms provide us insight into the Kushite language. Also give us the meanings of these names which you believe can provide us with an understanding of the Kushite language.
Names are but one of the tools that hint to continuity, as presented by Rilly:
list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC...
Typological similarity between Egyptian texts and their Meroitic counterparts can also be useful. Of course, the elements of the texts that are known, for example names of persons and gods, can help towards clarifying the grammatical nature and the semantic field of the unknown words. Most of the time, all these elements are insufficient. But in a few cases, a meaning can be suggested for new words and be confirmed in various inscriptions. Although very slow, this approach recently provided new translations. A set of thirtynine purely Meroitic basic words was finally produced, not including of course too specific words such as « prince » or « great priest », which are useless for comparative purpose.
Of course, all this has been presented to you before. That you never get it, can only be attributed to two things: Actual obtuseness or pretending to be obstuse.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Supercar
quote: Your 'reality' is not always in touch with 'reality' of the natural world, if you know what I mean. Sheer intellectual breakdown on your part to assume that names have no linguistic basis, and then go on to casually speak of "Native American" names, and names of "Hebrew" origins: how on earth would you make such claims in the first place, if names aren't distinctive of languages of origin? How does a "Native American" name become one in the first place, duh?
This proves your illiteracy. A name is just a word and can provide you little information with out translation of that name, any insight into a language.
For example, a common Afro-American name for a female is Shenika and Shenique. Afro-Americans speak English. They have distinct names they use, but this name tells us little if anything about the Afro-American language. People who use these Afro-American names don't even have a meaning for them.
If names tell us so much about a language why don't these terms provide us with insight into Afro-American language.
You know names by themselves can't provide us with any linguistic evidence for a language. You just want to keep arguing due to your pompous arrogance.
Supercar
quote:
Typological similarity between Egyptian texts and their Meroitic counterparts can also be useful. Of course, the elements of the texts that are known, for example names of persons and gods, can help towards clarifying the grammatical nature and the semantic field of the unknown words. Most of the time, all these elements are insufficient. But in a few cases, a meaning can be suggested for new words and be confirmed in various inscriptions. Although very slow, this approach recently provided new translations. A set of thirtynine purely Meroitic basic words was finally produced, not including of course too specific words such as « prince » or « great priest », which are useless for comparative purpose.
Your acceptance of this passage shows that you can't read. To read a dead language you have to find the cognate language. To read Egyptian Champollion used Coptic. To read the cuneiform writing Col. Rawlinson used Oromo and a South Semitic language.
You accept this statement as valid when :
1) Rilly has not found a cognate language for Meroitic;
2) Rilly has reconstructed Meroitic when there is not enough Meroitic lexical items to reconstruct a Proto-language;
3)Rilly has reconstructed Meroitic terms using South Sudanic languages especially Nubian, that were not even spoken in the Meroitic Empire;
4) Proto-terms are imagined words that can not even be proved to have ever existed; and
5) How can you read Meroitic text and discovery new word when you don't even know the language.
This makes any readings by Rilly conjecture. And your acceptance of his theory clear evidence of your lack of linguistic knowledge--and need to believe that just because an authority says something it must be true.
I am waiting for you to answer my questions.
1)Please explain how the terms Rilly has reconstructed based on Nubia provide us insight into the Kushite language, when Nubians were not even part of the Meroitic empire.
2)Give us the meanings of these names which you believe can provide us with an understanding of the Kushite language.
3) Provide us with a list of the 39 words Rilly uses to read Meroitic.
4) Name ancient languages deciphered and read using a Proto-Language.
5) Name a Proto-language supported by textual evidence from an actual document written in a Proto-language.
I am waiting........hmm.....
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Recently Claude Rilly is being given credit for presenting a method to decipher Meroitic, I already deciphered Meroitic years ago. Rilly believes that he can decipher the Meroitic language language using the Proto-NorthEastern Sudanic, which he has reconstructed.
According to Rilly, since the people presently living in the Sudan today speak languages associated with the Nilo Saharan Superfamily of languages, the Meroites probably spoke a language associated with this family. This was a radical decision, because research has shown that none of the attested Meroitic terms accepted by mainstream scholars are related to any living language in the Sudan (there are some Meroitic terms borrowed from Egyptian).
Because there are no cognate Meroitic terms and lexical items in the Eastern Sudanic Languages, Rilly has begun to reconstruct Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and attempt to read Meroitic text using his Proto-Eastern Sudanic vocabulary. Even if I hadn’t deciphered the Meroitic writing this method would never lead to the decipherment of this or any other language.
First, it must be stated that no “dead “ language has been deciphered using a proto-language. These languages were deciphered using living languages, Coptic in the case of Egyptian, Oromo and (Ethiopian) Semitic was used to decipher the Mesopotamian Cuneiform scripts.
The basic problem with using a proto-language to read a dead language results from the fact that the proto-language has been reconstructed by linguist who have no knowledge or textual evidence of the alleged proto-language. Secondly, there are subgroups in any family of languages. This means that you must first establish the intermediate proto-language (IPL) of the subgroup languages in the target language family. Once the IPLs have been reconstructed, you can then reconstruct the superordinate proto-language (SPL). You can only reconstruct the SPL on the basis of attested languages. In addition, before you can reconstruct the IPLs and SPL a genetic relationship must be established for the languages within the Superfamily of languages, e.g., Nilo Saharan.
The problem with Rilly’s method, is there is no way he can really establish the IPLs in Eastern Sudanic because we have not textual evidence or lexical items spoken by people who lived in the Sudan in Meroitic times. As a result, the languages spoken by people in this area today may not reflect the linguistic geography of the Sudan in the Meroitic period. This is most evident when we look at modern Egypt. Today the dominant language is Arabic, and yet Arabic has no relationship to Egyptian. If we accept Rilly’s method for deciphering Egyptian we would assume that once me reconstructed proto-Semitic , we could read Egyptian—but as you know Egyptian is not a Semitic language.
Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language. If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic. As a result, Rilly’s reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan can offer no insight into the language spoken by the Meroites.
My decipherment of Meroitic is based on the Kushana theory. The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.
The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.
Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites. It also makes it impossible for us to accept Rilly’s contention that he can read Meroitic using Proto-Eastern Sudanic.
Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol. 1,cliamed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (p.45),1950). Given the fact that the Kushana had formerly ruled India around the time that the Meroitic writing was introduced to the Kushite civilization, led to the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Gymnosophist may have been Kushana philosophers.
The historical evidence of the Kushana having ruled India made the Classical references to Indians in Meroe, an important source for the construction of alternative theories about the possible location of the cognate language of Meroitic.
There is external evidence, which supports my theory. A theory explains observed phenomena and has predictive power. I have theorized that due to the claims of the Classical writers that some of the Meroites came from India (F.C Conybeare (Trans.), Philostratus: The life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol.2, (1950) pg.271). According to the Life of Apollonius, the Indian Meroites were formerly led by a King Ganges, who had "repulsed the Scythians who invaded this land [India from] across the Caucasus" (Conybeare, Vol.1, Pg.273). Pilostratus also made it clear that the Indians of Meroe came to this country after their king was killed.
The presence of this tradition of an Indian King of the Indian-Meroites conquering the Scythians predicts that the Indian literature should record this historical episode. This prediction is supported by a Jaina text called the Kalakeharya-Kathanaka, which reports that when the Scythians invaded Malwa, the King of Malwa, called Vikramaditya defeated the Scythians (H. Kulke & D. Rothermund, History of India (London, Routledge: 1990, pg.73). This king Vikramaditya may be the Ganges mentioned in the Life of Apollonius.Confirmation of the Ganges story, supports the Classical literary evidence that their were Indianized-Meroites that could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.
Moreover, there were other Indians in North Africa in addition to Kush/Meroe. For example, at Quseir al-Qadim there was a large Indian speaking community (see: R. Salomon, "Epigraphic remains of Indian traders in Egypt", Journal of the American oriental Society, (1991) pp.731-736; and R. Salomon, Addenda, Journal of the American Oriental Society, (1993) pg.593). These Indians were in Egypt writing messages in their own language, around the time we see a switch from Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Meroitic writing system.
The evidence that the Classical references to an Indian-Meroite King who conquered the Scythians is supported by the Indian literature, provides external corroboration of the tradition that some of the Meroites were of Indian origin. The presence of Indian traders and settlers in Meroe (and Egypt), makes it almost impossible to deny the possibility that Indians, familiar with the Tokharian trade language did not introduce this writing to the Meroites who needed a neutral language to unify the diverse ethnic groups who made up the Meroite state. In relation to the history of linguistic change and bilingualism, it is a mistake to believe that linguistic transfer had to take place for the Meroites to have used Tokharian, when it did not take place when they wrote in Egyptian hieroglyphics.
In summary the classical literature makes it clear that there was a connection between the Gymnosophists (of Meroe) and the Indians. The fact that historical events mentioned in the classical sources are found in the Indian literature confirm the view that there were Indian-Meroites who could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.
The fact that the Nubians who were part of the "Meroitic state", used hieroglyphics and Coptic to write their language without abandoning their native language support the view that they could have also used Tokharian to write Meroitic. And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.
The evidence presented above provides internal and external validity for my theory based upon the sources I have cited previously. The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed [i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence. The fact that the claims made by the Classical writers is supported by the Indians themselves if further strong confirmation of the Kushana hypothesis.
The hypothesis based on the classical literature, was enough to support the original Kushana Hypothesis. The predicting power of the original theory, matches the observed natural phenomena which was confirmed elsewhere by cognate place names, ethononyms, lexical items and grammatical features, indicate that my theory has not be falsified.
The ability to reliably predict a linguistic relationship between Kushana and Meroitic, was further confirmation of the Kushana Hypothesis, because the linguistic connections were deducible from prediction.
I controlled the Kushana Hypothesis by comparing the statements of the classical writers, with historical, linguistic anthropological and toponymic evidence found not only in Africa, but also India and Central Asia [where the people also used Tokharian as a trade language to unify the various people in Central Asia]. I constructed five testable hypotheses in support of the Kushana theory, and it seems only fair that these five variables must be disconfirmed, to falsify the Kushana Hypothesis. Failure to disconfirm this theorem, implies validity of my prediction.
My confirmation of the above five variables: the presence of Kushites in Africa and Asia; the presence of Kushana sages in India who may have migrated to Meroe; cognate lexical items; cognate verbs and cognate grammatical features indicates systematic controlled, critical and empirical investigation of the question of Kushana representing the Meroitic cognate language.
You can read more about my decipherment of Meroitic in the following articles:
Winters,Clyde Ahmad. (Juin 1984b). "A Note on Tokharian and Meroitic", Meroitic Newsletter\Bulletin d"Information Meroitiques , No.23 , pages 18-21.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad. (1989b). "Cheikh Anta Diop et le dechiffrement de l'ecriture meroitique",Cabet: Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature 8, pp. 149-152.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad.(1998). Meroitic funerary Text. Part1, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt 1,(1), pp. 29-34.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad.(1998). Meroitic funerary Text. Part1, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt 1,(2), pp. 41-55.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad. (1999). The inscriptions of Tanyidamani. Nubica IV und Nubica V., pp.355-388.
My most recent article discussing Meroitic history and deciphering Meroitic documents titled the Meroitic Evidence for a Blemmy Empire in the Dodekaschoinos can be found at the following site:
quote: Your 'reality' is not always in touch with 'reality' of the natural world, if you know what I mean. Sheer intellectual breakdown on your part to assume that names have no linguistic basis, and then go on to casually speak of "Native American" names, and names of "Hebrew" origins: how on earth would you make such claims in the first place, if names aren't distinctive of languages of origin? How does a "Native American" name become one in the first place, duh?
This proves your illiteracy. A name is just a word and can provide you little information with out translation of that name, any insight into a language.
...this would pale considerably to your dirt stupidity for saying that there exists such a thing as "Native American" names, and names of "Hebrew" origin, while at the same time claiming that names have no linguistic basis.
quote:Clyde:
For example, a common Afro-American name for a female is Shenika and Shenique. Afro-Americans speak English. They have distinct names they use, but this name tells us little if anything about the Afro-American language. People who use these Afro-American names don't even have a meaning for them.
Immaterial. What is the primary language of black Americans? What is the origin of the names you just mentioned; I highly doubt they are African names.
quote:Clyde:
If names tell us so much about a language why don't these terms provide us with insight into Afro-American language.
A stupid question you might want to consider answering.
quote:Clyde.
You know names by themselves can't provide us with any linguistic evidence for a language.
Indeed, I do. The real question is whether you do.
quote:Clyde:
You just want to keep arguing due to your pompous arrogance.
Nope, I just want to exhibit your stupidity and lack of intellectual integrity, and it works like charm all the time.
quote:Clyde:
Supercar
quote:
Typological similarity between Egyptian texts and their Meroitic counterparts can also be useful. Of course, the elements of the texts that are known, for example names of persons and gods, can help towards clarifying the grammatical nature and the semantic field of the unknown words. Most of the time, all these elements are insufficient. But in a few cases, a meaning can be suggested for new words and be confirmed in various inscriptions. Although very slow, this approach recently provided new translations. A set of thirtynine purely Meroitic basic words was finally produced, not including of course too specific words such as « prince » or « great priest », which are useless for comparative purpose.
Your acceptance of this passage shows that you can't read.
Really; what does it say, you tell us. Let's examine how literate you are.
quote:Clyde:
You accept this statement as valid when :
1) Rilly has not found a cognate language for Meroitic;
2) Rilly has reconstructed Meroitic when there is not enough Meroitic lexical items to reconstruct a Proto-language;
3)Rilly has reconstructed Meroitic terms using South Sudanic languages especially Nubian, that were not even spoken in the Meroitic Empire;
4) Proto-terms are imagined words that can not even be proved to have ever existed; and
5) How can you read Meroitic text and discovery new word when you don't even know the language.
This makes any readings by Rilly conjecture. And your acceptance of his theory clear evidence of your lack of linguistic knowledge--and need to believe that just because an authority says something it must be true.
Ah, so you now admit that the citation really has nothing to do with my reading ability, but rather, your unwillingness to acknowledge what it is relaying to you. It seems that the reading issue is on your end after all. I don't really have to do much but stand aside, and allow you to do what you are best at doing: exposing yourself as one heck of an individual full of b.s.
quote:Clyde:
I am waiting for you to answer my questions.
1)Please explain how the terms Rilly has reconstructed based on Nubia provide us insight into the Kushite language, when Nubians were not even part of the Meroitic empire.
2)Give us the meanings of these names which you believe can provide us with an understanding of the Kushite language.
3) Provide us with a list of the 39 words Rilly uses to read Meroitic.
4) Name ancient languages deciphered and read using a Proto-Language.
5) Name a Proto-language supported by textual evidence from an actual document written in a Proto-language.
I am waiting........hmm.....
It'll be one heck of a wait, for I owe you no more than what has already been provided [along with the link], as evidence by a linguist who utilized names, amongst other elements, to assist in reconstructing Kushitic language, in addition to what your own clumsy blunders about name 'origins' reveal about your utterly intellectually bankrupt standpoint.
quote: Clyde:
In summary the classical literature makes it clear that there was a connection between the Gymnosophists (of Meroe) and the Indians. The fact that historical events mentioned in the classical sources are found in the Indian literature confirm the view that there were Indian-Meroites who could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.
The fact that the Nubians who were part of the "Meroitic state", used hieroglyphics and Coptic to write their language without abandoning their native language support the view that they could have also used Tokharian to write Meroitic. And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.
The evidence presented above provides internal and external validity for my theory based upon the sources I have cited previously. The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed [i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence. The fact that the claims made by the Classical writers is supported by the Indians themselves if further strong confirmation of the Kushana hypothesis.
The hypothesis based on the classical literature, was enough to support the original Kushana Hypothesis. The predicting power of the original theory, matches the observed natural phenomena which was confirmed elsewhere by cognate place names, ethononyms, lexical items and grammatical features, indicate that my theory has not be falsified.
The ability to reliably predict a linguistic relationship between Kushana and Meroitic, was further confirmation of the Kushana Hypothesis, because the linguistic connections were deducible from prediction.
I controlled the Kushana Hypothesis by comparing the statements of the classical writers, with historical, linguistic anthropological and toponymic evidence found not only in Africa, but also India and Central Asia [where the people also used Tokharian as a trade language to unify the various people in Central Asia]. I constructed five testable hypotheses in support of the Kushana theory, and it seems only fair that these five variables must be disconfirmed, to falsify the Kushana Hypothesis. Failure to disconfirm this theorem, implies validity of my prediction.
This is just another hogwash, as exemplified by this very contradictory response to my earlier question, with respect to "Meroitic" language being spoken outside the Nile Valley, which you later proclaimed to have answered:
Clyde earlier said...
First of all I never said that Meroitic was spoken outside of the Nile Valley. It was a lingua franca that allowed the diverse people of the Meroitic Empire to communicate in a common language.
I have never argued that the Kushites abandoned their native language or that Meroitic was spoken anywhere except in the Meroitic Sudan....
^Busted with your pants down!
Posted by Pax Dahomensis (Member # 9851) on :
And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.
Meroitic script isn't Tocharian script. You haven't shown any shred of evidence of "Meroitic" script being used outside of the Nile Valley.
quote:[i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence.
Easy, you have no textual Kushitic or artistic Kushitic evidence of Indians in Kush. You have no genetic evidence to that extent either.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You are intellectually bankrupt and naked in your total ignorance of Meroitic. If not for your troll existence on this forum attacking anyone you disagree with you would not have any thing to contribute to the forum. Your troll existence is obvious when you write: Supercar
quote: Easy, you have no textual Kushitic or artistic Kushitic evidence of Indians in Kush. You have no genetic evidence to that extent either.
This is a retarded statement when I already posted the textual sources supporting Kushana/Indians in Meroe above. Textual information you might understand if your were not blinded by white supremacy to accept any statement made by a European [Rilly] supported by other Europeans as fact. I already noted:
quote:
My decipherment of Meroitic is based on the Kushana theory. The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.
The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.
Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites. It also makes it impossible for us to accept Rilly’s contention that he can read Meroitic using Proto-Eastern Sudanic. Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol. 1,cliamed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (p.45),1950). Given the fact that the Kushana had formerly ruled India around the time that the Meroitic writing was introduced to the Kushite civilization, led to the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Gymnosophist may have been Kushana philosophers.
The historical evidence of the Kushana having ruled India made the Classical references to Indians in Meroe, an important source for the construction of alternative theories about the possible location of the cognate language of Meroitic.
There is external evidence, which supports my theory. A theory explains observed phenomena and has predictive power. I have theorized that due to the claims of the Classical writers that some of the Meroites came from India (F.C Conybeare (Trans.), Philostratus: The life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol.2, (1950) pg.271). According to the Life of Apollonius, the Indian Meroites were formerly led by a King Ganges, who had "repulsed the Scythians who invaded this land [India from] across the Caucasus" (Conybeare, Vol.1, Pg.273). Pilostratus also made it clear that the Indians of Meroe came to this country after their king was killed.
The presence of this tradition of an Indian King of the Indian-Meroites conquering the Scythians predicts that the Indian literature should record this historical episode. This prediction is supported by a Jaina text called the Kalakeharya-Kathanaka, which reports that when the Scythians invaded Malwa, the King of Malwa, called Vikramaditya defeated the Scythians (H. Kulke & D. Rothermund, History of India (London, Routledge: 1990, pg.73). This king Vikramaditya may be the Ganges mentioned in the Life of Apollonius. Confirmation of the Ganges story, supports the Classical literary evidence that their were Indianized-Meroites that could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites. Moreover, there were other Indians in North Africa in addition to Kush/Meroe. For example, at Quseir al-Qadim there was a large Indian speaking community (see: R. Salomon, "Epigraphic remains of Indian traders in Egypt", Journal of the American oriental Society, (1991) pp.731-736; and R. Salomon, Addenda, Journal of the American Oriental Society, (1993) pg.593). These Indians were in Egypt writing messages in their own language, around the time we see a switch from Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Meroitic writing system.
The evidence that the Classical references to an Indian-Meroite King who conquered the Scythians is supported by the Indian literature, provides external corroboration of the tradition that some of the Meroites were of Indian origin. The presence of Indian traders and settlers in Meroe (and Egypt), makes it almost impossible to deny the possibility that Indians, familiar with the Tokharian trade language did not introduce this writing to the Meroites who needed a neutral language to unify the diverse ethnic groups who made up the Meroite state. In relation to the history of linguistic change and bilingualism, it is a mistake to believe that linguistic transfer had to take place for the Meroites to have used Tokharian/Kushana, when it did not take place when they wrote in Egyptian hieroglyphics. In summary the classical literature makes it clear that there was a connection between the Gymnosophists (of Meroe) and the Indians. The fact that historical events mentioned in the classical sources are found in the Indian literature confirm the view that there were Indian-Meroites who could have introduced the Tokharian/Kushana trade language to the Meroites.
The fact that the Nubians who were part of the "Meroitic state", used hieroglyphics and Coptic to write their language without abandoning their native language support the view that they could have also used Tokharian/Kushana to write Meroitic. And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian/Kushana, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.
The evidence presented above provides internal and external validity for my theory based upon the sources I have cited previously. The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed [i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence. The fact that the claims made by the Classical writers is supported by the Indians themselves if further strong confirmation of the Kushana hypothesis.
The hypothesis based on the classical literature, was enough to support the original Kushana Hypothesis. The predicting power of the original theory, matches the observed natural phenomena which was confirmed elsewhere by cognate place names, ethononyms, lexical items and grammatical features, indicate that my theory has not be falsified.
The ability to reliably predict a linguistic relationship between Kushana and Meroitic, was further confirmation of the Kushana Hypothesis, because the linguistic connections were deducible from prediction. I controlled the Kushana Hypothesis by comparing the statements of the classical writers, with historical, linguistic anthropological and toponymic evidence found not only in Africa, but also India and Central Asia [where the people also used Tokharian/Kushana as a trade language to unify the various people in Central Asia]. I constructed five testable hypotheses in support of the Kushana theory, and it seems only fair that these five variables must be disconfirmed, to falsify the Kushana Hypothesis. Failure to disconfirm this theorem, implies validity of my prediction.
My confirmation of the above five variables: the presence of Kushites in Africa and Asia; the presence of Kushana sages in India who may have migrated to Meroe; cognate lexical items; cognate verbs and cognate grammatical features indicates systematic controlled, critical and empirical investigation of the question of Kushana representing the Meroitic cognate language.
Although I have met my burden of proof Supercar like most trolls, you continue making reckless uninformed claims that you won't back up with sources.
You hide behind authorities and believe everything they say is the gospel. It is not so. Like most weak people when you are confronted with the defects in the statements of your Eurocentric gods then you become rude and like a rabid dog you go on the attack . Blindly attacking anything your narrow mind can not understand.
Your insidious statements are hollow since they lack the substance necessary to provide them with a factual basis and betray the deceitful nature trolls like you present in a debate when you don't have a clue about what you are debating.
Like most other trolls your unsound propositions are frequently posted on this forum and people refuse to respond to them because you contemptuously dismiss them with a put down, or negative comment which is supported by your cheerleaders. Without these cheerleaders you are just a puppy, barking wildingly to cover up the empty rhectoric you tender in many threads.
Supercar
quote:
quote:Clyde:
I am waiting for you to answer my questions.
1)Please explain how the terms Rilly has reconstructed based on Nubia provide us insight into the Kushite language, when Nubians were not even part of the Meroitic empire.
2)Give us the meanings of these names which you believe can provide us with an understanding of the Kushite language.
3) Provide us with a list of the 39 words Rilly uses to read Meroitic.
4) Name ancient languages deciphered and read using a Proto-Language.
5) Name a Proto-language supported by textual evidence from an actual document written in a Proto-language.
I am waiting........hmm..... ---------------------------------------------------
It'll be one heck of a wait, for I owe you no more than what has already been provided [along with the link], as evidence by a linguist who utilized names, amongst other elements, to assist in reconstructing Kushitic language, in addition to what your own clumsy blunders about name 'origins' reveal about your utterly intellectually bankrupt standpoint.
Due to your ignorance about Meroitic and refusal to answer my questions I will no longer discuss this matter with you. I don't have time to waste with people who have no competence in an area their arrogance has made them feel they are capable of debating.
You may continue to troll this thread as long as you wish. Then more and more people can drink of your ignorance--or throw it up.
.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
I was about to post and support our Dr. Clyde Winters, but I see he also takes part on name calling.
Guys, lets avoid the name calling, and remember why we are here. I'm sure if we were on a café or someone else's home, we'd not act childish.
You can disagree someone without using name calling.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You are intellectually bankrupt and naked in your total ignorance of Meroitic. If not for your troll existence on this forum attacking anyone you disagree with you would not have any thing to contribute to the forum. Your troll existence is obvious when you write: Supercar
LOl. We are suppose to trust that you know what Meroitic script is, when you can't even tell the difference between "Meroitic" script and 'Tocharian' script?
quote:Clyde:
quote: Easy, you have no textual Kushitic or artistic Kushitic evidence of Indians in Kush. You have no genetic evidence to that extent either.
This is a retarded statement when I already posted the textual sources supporting Kushana/Indians in Meroe above.
You can't even tell the difference between a 'request' or a 'challenge' and 'statement', and you are talking of 'retarded'; a request you are intellectually incapable of delivering!
quote:Clyde:
Textual information you might understand if your were not blinded by white supremacy to accept any statement made by a European [Rilly] supported by other Europeans as fact. I already noted:
You have not provided any basis for this claim, but I've amply demonstrated that you are blinded by stupidity.
quote:Clyde:
My decipherment of Meroitic is based on the Kushana theory. The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.
...which is totally out of this universe in terms of intellectual bankrupcy, because the so-called Kushanas didn't write in "Meroitic" script, and you haven't shown even a 'straw' of evidence of this.
quote:Clyde:
The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.
For the first point, of course Rilly's reconstruction and the fact that "Meroitic" language is "African" makes you look silly. For the second and third point, you have no textual or artistic evidence from the Kushites of Indian presence, nor do you have any genetic evidence to support the idea of 'Indian' Meroites.
quote:Clyde:
Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites. It also makes it impossible for us to accept Rilly’s contention that he can read Meroitic using Proto-Eastern Sudanic.
You haven't falsified jack. In fact, you've contradicted yourself, in claiming that the Kushites didn't abandon their language, only to then imply that the Kushites didn't speak the same language as the "Meroites". Moreover, your idea that there would be no contemporary language in the region that is related to the Kushitic "lingua franca", is intellectually bankrupt when you have shown no evidence of 'population replacement' or population 'extinction'. You act like Meroites didn't leave descendants behind who would today speak related languages. Even Egyptians today, while they speak Arabic, speak one that is infused with words carried over from Egyptic, and then there are Coptic holdouts. Where is your evidence that none of the people who now live in northern Sudan at least, are descendants of Meroites?
quote:Clyde:
The historical evidence of the Kushana having ruled India made the Classical references to Indians in Meroe, an important source for the construction of alternative theories about the possible location of the cognate language of Meroitic.
Pseudo science contradicts itself: did you not moments ago, claim that you never argued for the use of "Meroitic" outside of the Nile Valley? The Kushana aren't Africans or natives of the Nile Valley. If Kushana didn't speak "Meroitic", how on this green earth can you claim to use them to decipher "Meroitic"? If "Meroitic" hadn't been used outside of the Nile Valley, how do you use an outside source to 'decipher' Meroitic. Also, where is your evidence of "Meroitic" script found outside of the Nile Valley?
quote:Clyde:
Although I have met my burden of proof Supercar like most trolls, you continue making reckless uninformed claims that you won't back up with sources.
You must have been holding a mirror to your face when you were writing this piece, super-troll one.
quote:Clyde:
You hide behind authorities and believe everything they say is the gospel.
Better than hiding behind pseudo-scientistific sources and taking their unsubstantive claims as 'gospel'; asking me to accept your peculiar theories, would amount to doing just that.
quote:Clyde:
It is not so. Like most weak people when you are confronted with the defects in the statements of your Eurocentric gods then you become rude and like a rabid dog you go on the attack . Blindly attacking anything your narrow mind can not understand.
You see the act of challenging questionable material as weakness; I on the other hand, see it as a sign of strength and intellectual alertness.
quote:Clyde:
Your insidious statements are hollow since they lack the substance necessary to provide them with a factual basis and betray the deceitful nature trolls like you present in a debate when you don't have a clue about what you are debating.
I've actually produced more substantive material on this board in a short period of time than you have in your entire lifetime. You are the same person who confused mtDNA with Y chromosomes, and then act like you know what you are talking about. You are the same person who claims Dravidian and African connection, turning to genetics, when there isn't a shred of evidence in this regard. You are the same person who talks of Mande speaking Olmecs, when there is no evidence of this either. You are the same person who talks of "Indian" Meroites, when there isn't even a straw to cling on.
quote:Clyde:
Like most other trolls your unsound propositions are frequently posted on this forum and people refuse to respond to them because you contemptuously dismiss them with a put down, or negative comment which is supported by your cheerleaders
This is of course a boldface lie, because I've confronted so many posters here and refuted or challenged their claims deemed questionable by me. And in any case, even if your questionable claim was given consideration, well then, it only paints the 'hypothetical' people you speak of, as copouts or cowards. This is a forum; you can either speak out, or forever remain silent; it is that simple. I am not going to concern myself with 'potential' copouts. Their silence would be their prerogatives, not mine. Mine is to dispel myths, like yours.
quote:Clyde:
Without these cheerleaders you are just a puppy, barking wildingly to cover up the empty rhectoric you tender in many threads.
...which beats a chicken and copout, as you've just proven yourself to be.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.
Which is where it becomes clear the absolute necessity of pretending that Indians are Africans, once Meroitic text is misassigned to India.
"Afrocentrisms" tangled self-defeating mess.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Arwa
quote:
Guys, lets avoid the name calling, and remember why we are here. I'm sure if we were on a café or someone else's home, we'd not act childish.
You can disagree someone without using name calling.
I agree . But when resident trolls like Supercar and his cheerleaders start the name calling I will respond.
Once these trolls prove that they don't know what their talking about in relation to a thread I will no longer discourse with them.
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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I agree . But when resident trolls like Supercar and his cheerleaders start the name calling I will respond.
Once these trolls prove that they don't know what their talking about in relation to a thread I will no longer discourse with them.
All Clyde, the mother of all trolls, can possibly do now, is to simply come back with nothing more than meaningless name calling; basically nothing that can humanly be considered coherent or relevant to his obligation to produce 'substance'. Make no mistake, I don't sit idly while childish names are thrown at me; I'll strike back in ways that will only make your head spin.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Dr. Clyde,
You must understand why you are an easy target--because this place is crowded with wannabes scholars and you provide tolls by participating on this forum. I do not agree with everything you write but I'll not go that point by using name calling.
I see you have discovered new fields to research but as you can see you need a lot works to do.
Reagarding cheerleaders, you are right about that there are people on this forum who lack backbone.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
At least Winters and Supercar materially discuss the issues.
Let Winters and Supercar continue their debate.
It's interesting.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
"Wannabes, scholars, cheerleaders, trolls' or whatever, all get equal treatment here; nothing said and nobody is above questioning.
Frankly, I give no qualms about what label any person wishes to attach to me, I go about doing business as usual.
Clyde hasn't provided jack to support his bizarre theories, and that is the way it will be treated. Not a single sole has found "Meroitic" inscriptions outside of the Nile Valley, and yet Clyde will have folks here believe that some "naked" Indians introduced this script into the Nile Valley. Just sheer comedy.
Posted by Morpheus 27 (Member # 10819) on :
About the cheerleading, if you speak of the people on hear who disagree with Clyde Winters, whose posts (about anything I could comprehend) I liked when I was new, I took a lot of time to deliberate with whom I'd agree with on alot of the debates before (rarely) posting on them (I'm a laymen ). And I hate to jump on bandwagons, I typically think for myself, if anything, I'm rebelious . I just like to be correct .
I was actually surprised when Winters ended up wrong (in my observations and opion). With all the recent knowledge I'd been verifying at the time, the black or 'afrocentric' side seemed to be winning.
Plus I think just about everyone in that group has disagreed over something or another at some point in time.
It seems to me that people who side with Clyde W. are the cheerleaders and sidekicks who aren't looking for info, just supporting his agenda.
He still makes some good posts, I just disagree with him on a couple things, especially the Negroid definition of african, it's just so senseless.
In my opinion it would make much more sense to Include everything african, but unlike afrocentrists eurocentrists would be alot quicker (you'd think, at their own game,) to realize the uselessness, since alot physical types of groups overlap. Winters is really knoledgeable and it surprises me that he would not get this. Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Calling nameless people 'cheerleaders', 'trolls' or 'wannabes', supposedly meant to be a cheap shot at opponents of Clyde Winters, is what's actually a blatant indication of a person who is insecure, dishonest and has yet to develop a backbone, hiding behind unfounded generalizations and unspecified points.
Speaking out in support of truth and objectivity, is a cheerleading worth the effort in my book and one which I would gladly indulge in.
That Clyde directs cheap shots at experts in their absence, reveals what about Clyde’s character and security?…calling the idea of citing a linguist like Claude Rilly, catering to ‘white supremacy’. On what basis does Clyde assume Mr. Rilly is a proponent of ‘white supremacy’, when it is ironical that this ‘white’ person is not deliberately looking towards non-African explanation for a blatant African development without placing emphasis first and foremost on the region in question, and then seek to get answers elsewhere outside of the said region, while Clyde, a self-proclaimed “Afro-centrist” seeks a non-African solution to an African development, even when it is clear that a non-African explanation is quite meager. Is it not the expectation of ‘white supremacy’ to first seek a non-African explanation or solution for all things African which have been imparted with any degree of meaningfulness, before begrudgingly accepting or conceding, if at all, to facts or truth to the contrary?
“Truth” knows no gender, class or ethnic affiliation, and THAT'S THE WORD!
Posted by Morpheus 27 (Member # 10819) on :
^^Yep, indeed there's hypocrisy goin on. I couldn't agree more, especially with that last part about truth.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:On what basis does Clyde assume Mr. Rilly is a proponent of ‘white supremacy’, when it is ironical that this ‘white’ person is not deliberately looking towards non-African explanation for a blatant African development without placing emphasis first and foremost on the region in question, and then seek to get answers elsewhere outside of the said region, while Clyde, a self-proclaimed “Afro-centrist” seeks a non-African solution to an African development, even when it is clear that a non-African explanation is quite meager.
Because the best rhetorical defense is a good offense.
By accusing you of catering to and anti-African agenda, the focus is taken off the fact that what is being advocated is that the Meroitic script is Indian, and not African, in origin. This in spite of and abscense of any proof of and Indian progenator.
I pointed out awhile ago that one of the scholars cited to this effect went so far as to suggest that *all the civilisations of the Sudan* are the product of Indian migrants.
The argument is in fact rooted in the assumption that Sudanese could not possibly have developed their own writing system.
Ironic isn't it, to foster such a notion in the name of "Afrocentrism"?
The proponents are aware of, and embarrassed by the irony.
But they have and "answer".
They further confound the issue by proclaiming Indians to be Africans - 'anway', and so related to proto-Mandingo who migrated from the Sahara, which is yet another fabrication unsupported by evidence. Thus Indian Meriotic is really African because Indians are Africans.
It's important to understand that these two lies are interdependant - and moreover lead directly to the need for other fabrications.
And example is the notion that the Berber are not native to AFrica, but rather to Yemen, or was it...Germany? [anywhere but Africa.]
Thus this vision of Africa - the Dravidians live in the Sahara, whereas the Berber live in Yemen and/or Germany.
Somehow all the Berber migrate into North Africa, and all the Dravidians leave Africa and migrate to India.
Genetic evidence to the contrary can simply be ignored via panderings to anti-intellectualism - ie - genetics is too hard [for Black folk?] and can't be trusted.
For those who claim to 'believe' the total hypothesis, the true wonder is how they manage the mental juggling act necessary to prevent the whole thing from crashing down and shattering into a million pieces?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Professor Winters: This fragmented votive tablet shows Meroitic inscriptions, could you translate for me please? Thank you
King Tanyidamani [Tanwetamani] Meroitic Period 664-653 B.C.
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
I meant to say King Tanyidamani 110-90 BC.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Professor Winters: This fragmented votive tablet shows Meroitic inscriptions, could you translate for me please? Thank you
King Tanyidamani [Tanwetamani] Meroitic Period 110-90 BC
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Reading this same inscription right to left we find the following:
TRANSLITERATION OF THE VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAŃYIDAMANI
1……..
2. d lm…….
3. tńyi[dmni]……
4. d h ni
5. lw r i n
6. p e ĥ n
7. d qr i
8. to….wi
9. to…..no
10. qo…. l e
11. W-ne lw kl
12. Mo k-i* nea
13. tb d tm k-i*
Translation 1.[ ………]
2. Leave a legacy firmly established……..
3. Tańyidamani………
4. Bequeath a radiant offering.
5. Indeed send out glory and Good.
6. Vouchsafe Blessings and Good.
7.Leave this legacy Monarch (as is the) tradition.
8.To ignite[……] honor
9. To ignite[……] anew.
10. The Renewer[Apedemak]….to grant a blessing.
11. The Commander bears Glory.
12.Initiate (this) great obligation at this moment.
13.Announce out loud/in a lofty voice this lasting legacy to produce (this) duty.
*In Meroitic the affix /-i/ is used to form agent nouns. The Meroitic k= ‘necessary’, with the addition of the /-i/, e.g., k-i= ‘oblig
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Thank you
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You are welcome.
The statement that was cut off reads as follows: *In Meroitic the affix /-i/ is used to form agent nouns. The Meroitic k= ‘necessary’, with the addition of the /-i/, e.g., k-i= ‘obligation, duty'.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
I thought his name was on it. Their belief system was deep.
Stela of Queen Amanishaketo
The temple of Amon (1st cent. BC/ 1st cent. AD). Hypostyle Hall.
(left) Goddess Amesemi (right) Amanishaketo
Amesemi - Woman with falcon on head, sometimes also with crescent moon
Amesemi was a Meroitic goddess, who was the wife of Apedemak, lion god of Meroë. The Egyptians never worshiped her. Amesemi wears a crown shaped like a falcon or a falcon standing on a crescent moon. (The falcon is a symbol of kingship and of the god Horus.) The moon was known as the Eye of Horus, as was the cobra on the ruler’s crown. People believed that the moon and the cobra were forms of their ruler’s protective goddess. Because Amesemi wore the falcon and the moon on her crown, many people believe that Amesemi was this protective goddess.
Can you read this one? I like to pick your brain. You are so kind about it. I might have to blow it up for you which I can do later tonight for I am at work.
Stela of queen Amanishaketo. Reverse
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: I thought his name was on it. Their belief system was deep.
Stela of Queen Amanishaketo Can you read this one? I like to pick your brain. You are so kind about it. I might have to blow it up for you which I can do later tonight for I am at work.
Stela of queen Amanishaketo. Reverse
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I will try to read the stela. I will tell you now that the decipherment is tentative because it is hard read the Meroitic letters. In the future some of this decipherment may have to be done over.
Transliteration
1. nišheto qo-ne qo
2. n-ne he ńk e li-ne ml o
3. ps e o-ne a r-i te
4. k-ne a ine rm i l-ne t d b e šo
5. sli n0 tene q en ne-n
6. te ši-ne ht nk tone n h-ne
7. tek ……ok…….nm…..n h n om-ne
8. hl[e]…. O h p ne š m r
9. m ……. Te r h tl k-ne l tene
10. [………….. ……]
11. h ne m e ter h te m n š nel l
12. w-ne q š-ne l h mete o om-ne
13. sl lne tek nei h r tne š
14. k ńh d ne ate h te ši kne
15. r-ń h ne-ń kne ane e-m bo
Translation
1. Anishkheto noble and good restored
2.Manifest the external spirit now; command the transmittal of the sould to commence.
3. Give guard the accession (of the) apparition—may it go forth.
4. The Object of Supplication and Good [Anishkheto] goes to witnee [a new] existence. Arrange to leave a legacy [and] blessed life.
5. Leave to set in motion now the Rebirth. Act to command Good to manifest.
6. The propitiation to pour out. God ignites and manifest the abstract personality of man.
7. To investigate…….a new…..reverence and Good the offering’s only acquisition.
8. Reverberate…….initiate the offering a good pray[er] [for] the patron’s luck
9. m… …. ..te indeed the blessings to elevate the Object of Supplication’s rebirth.
10. [……….. ….. …. … …]
11. The abstract personality of man to unlock indeed the great holy place (of) good (to) merit existence
12. The Commander acts to uplift Greatness, unlock from a distance (its) acquisition.
13. Set in motion (her) existence to investigate benevolence (and) dignity. Lay Good (on) the patron.
14. It (is) obligatory at this time to leave a legacy at this moment dispensing (your) satisfaction.
15. Certainly her abstract personality of man to manifest the Object of Supplication’s spirit much favor (and) increase.
The inscription on the edge
Transliteration
1. ah
2. e k p
3. k h
4. š ne nek e
5. [………..]
6. [….. …… ]
7. […. …… ..]
8. a šne
9. š
10. [… ….. …..]
11. [….. ….. ….]
12. [… ….. …. ..]
13. ń l li
14. l d
15. b ene
Translation
“The blessed dead [Anishkheto] prays (for) nourishment (of) the obligatory offerings…..to merit……patron……retire exalted. (Her) lasting legacy is abundant almsgiving.”
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Thank you Dr. Winters.
The Stela of Queen Amanishaketo is a beautiful piece.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Myra could you blow up the front of the Stela of Queen Amanishaketo. I would like to see what is written in hierglyphics. The smaller picture of the tablet has a lot of shadows which make it difficult to read.
I was suprised that companion was not mentioned in the text.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
I'm at work now. I will do it tonight.
I'll look to see if I have other images of the goddess Amesemi in my archive. I think I do.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: I thought his name was on it. Their belief system was deep.
Stela of Queen Amanishaketo Can you read this one? I like to pick your brain. You are so kind about it. I might have to blow it up for you which I can do later tonight for I am at work.
Stela of queen Amanishaketo. Reverse
.
I will try to read the stela. I will tell you now that the decipherment is tentative because it is hard read the Meroitic letters. In the future some of this decipherment may have to be done over.
Transliteration
1. nišheto qo-ne qo
2. n-ne he ńk e li-ne ml o
3. ps e o-ne a r-i te
4. k-ne a ine rm i l-ne t d b e šo
5. sli n0 tene q en ne-n
6. te ši-ne ht nk tone n h-ne
7. tek ……ok…….nm…..n h n om-ne
8. hl[e]…. O h p ne š m r
9. m ……. Te r h tl k-ne l tene
10. [………….. ……]
11. h ne m e ter h te m n š nel l
12. w-ne q š-ne l h mete o om-ne
13. sl lne tek nei h r tne š
14. k ńh d ne ate h te ši kne
15. r-ń h ne-ń kne ane e-m bo
Translation
1. Anishkheto noble and good restored
2.Manifest the external spirit now; command the transmittal of the sould to commence.
3. Give guard the accession (of the) apparition—may it go forth.
4. The Object of Supplication and Good [Anishkheto] goes to witnee [a new] existence. Arrange to leave a legacy [and] blessed life.
5. Leave to set in motion now the Rebirth. Act to command Good to manifest.
6. The propitiation to pour out. God ignites and manifest the abstract personality of man.
7. To investigate…….a new…..reverence and Good the offering’s only acquisition.
8. Reverberate…….initiate the offering a good pray[er] [for] the patron’s luck
9. m… …. ..te indeed the blessings to elevate the Object of Supplication’s rebirth.
10. [……….. ….. …. … …]
11. The abstract personality of man to unlock indeed the great holy place (of) good (to) merit existence
12. The Commander acts to uplift Greatness, unlock from a distance (its) acquisition.
13. Set in motion (her) existence to investigate benevolence (and) dignity. Lay Good (on) the patron.
14. It (is) obligatory at this time to leave a legacy at this moment dispensing (your) satisfaction.
15. Certainly her abstract personality of man to manifest the Object of Supplication’s spirit much favor (and) increase.
The inscription on the edge
Transliteration
1. ah
2. e k p
3. k h
4. š ne nek e
5. [………..]
6. [….. …… ]
7. […. …… ..]
8. a šne
9. š
10. [… ….. …..]
11. [….. ….. ….]
12. [… ….. …. ..]
13. ń l li
14. l d
15. b ene
Translation
“The blessed dead [Anishkheto] prays (for) nourishment (of) the obligatory offerings…..to merit……patron……retire exalted. (Her) lasting legacy is abundant almsgiving.”
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Myra could you blow up the front of the Stela of Queen Amanishaketo. I would like to see what is written in hierglyphics. The smaller picture of the tablet has a lot of shadows which make it difficult to read.
I was suprised that companion was not mentioned in the text.
This is a pretty good close up. Notice the three ritual scars on the face of the goddess Amensemi.
Note:
An observation from Derek A. Welsby from his book Sudan Ancient Treasures, 2004, page 181:
"Not only does the text keep its secrets, but an important historical question also remains open: why and how was a stela of Queen Amanishakheto, dated about sixty years before Natakamani and Amanitore, donated to the Temple of Amun at Naga, a structure not yet in existence during the lifetime of this queen? Do we have to rethink the sequence of Meroitic rulers?"
What does he mean? Can you clarify for me?
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Myra could you blow up the front of the Stela of Queen Amanishaketo. I would like to see what is written in hierglyphics. The smaller picture of the tablet has a lot of shadows which make it difficult to read.
I was suprised that companion was not mentioned in the text.
This is a pretty good close up. Notice the three ritual scars on the face of the goddess Amensemi.
Note:
An observation from Derek A. Welsby from his book Sudan Ancient Treasures, 2004, page 181:
"Not only does the text keep its secrets, but an important historical question also remains open: why and how was a stela of Queen Amanishakheto, dated about sixty years before Natakamani and Amanitore, donated to the Temple of Amun at Naga, a structure not yet in existence during the lifetime of this queen? Do we have to rethink the sequence of Meroitic rulers?"
What does he mean? Can you clarify for me?
.
The hieroglyphic writing is just the names : reading from the center to the left
Center Inscription a m i n sh h to qo
Translation
Amanishkhato the honorable
Left inscription
a m e se m i q[e]
Translation
Amesemi the Creator
He is just saying that Queen Amanishakhato came after Natakamani and Amanitore, but this stela is dated before this couple.
It is clear from the text that the obituary on the stela was written for a certain Anishakheto. It is clear that she was a royal given her title "qo" 'nobel. Maybe the solution to this contradiction is that Anishakheto is not Queen Amanishakhato.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
What does the cartouche on the left say?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: What does the cartouche on the left say?
They both say the same thing.
Pylon
a m i n sh h e to qo
Transliteration
Amanishakheto qo
Translation
'Nobel Amanishakheto'
or
'Amanishakheto the honorable'
Amanishakheto Stela
A m i n sh h e to qo
Transliteration
Amanishakheto qo
[/list]
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Thank you for your time. That was fun.
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Posted by jahi issa (Member # 12994) on :
Dr. Winter,
how do we get in touch with you? We believe that we have discovered Narmer/Menes real name. His name is Amen Heru. we base this off our revisiting the serekh facade, were you see heru standing on the three-column building. We have published this in our book called The Origin of the Word Amen. What do you think? We have much more....
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by jahi issa: Dr. Winter,
how do we get in touch with you? We believe that we have discovered Narmer/Menes real name. His name is Amen Heru. we base this off our revisiting the serekh facade, were you see heru standing on the three-column building. We have published this in our book called The Origin of the Word Amen. What do you think? We have much more....
Hi
This information sounds very interesting. I can't comment on the issue because I have never researched the issue. I am sorry to say I have not read your book. Is there anyway you could post the artifacts denoting this name on this site and explaining their significance.
Great research.
Posted by kifaru (Member # 4698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This genetic evidence relates to 25,000-60,000 ybp. How does this genetic evidence relate to the period between 3000-1200 BC, when the earliest urban cultures and civilizations appear in the Sahara and spread to Ethiopia?
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Well Clyde I must admit I have always had a feeling that the sahara held onto more secrets than it has revealed about the beginnings of human civilizations. The problem is that the sahara being that it is a desert, constantly shifts and may have covered coverd up much of any evidence that exist or may have existed.
Maybe the problem is that we assume too much based on the few facts we have about the past. Such as thinking that because: We found 10,000 yr old article A in site X And We found 6,000 yr old article B in site Y that some culture in site A is the oldest culture. This doesn't take into account that we haven't excavated site C yet.
Clyde do you know if any archeological work is being done around the lake chad region or any of the dry lakes or rivers in the sahara?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kifaru
quote:
Clyde do you know if any archeological work is being done around the lake chad region or any of the dry lakes or rivers in the sahara? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some research is being done but much of it is published in French.
In the Sahara archeologists found a beautiful monument to Seth which indicates his early worship in this area. We discussed this piece last year on this form but I can't remember the thread now. Maybe when I am at home I may be able to find it.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Statue of Kushite King Senkamanisken
Napata (643-623 B.C.)
"As far as royal iconography goes, the panther skin that was the special garb of the sem priest, became an important element of regalia in Napatan and later Meroitic art". (Charles Bonnet, 2007)
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
UP^^^
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Archaeological Site: Begrawiya
A glazed terracotta figure from the Royal Baths at Meroe, in the shape of the head and forepaws of a lion, probably the lion-god Apedemak. The lion wears a crown and crouches on a crescent moon. Crescent moons and lions' heads were common Meroitic decorative motifs and are normally found together on vessels. (Liverpool Museum - 03/061)
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Present location: Rijksmuseum van Oudheden Leiden, the Netherlands Inventory Number: F 2000/6.1/2 Dating: 25th Dynasty Archaeological Site: Upper Nubia (Sudanese site) Category: Leg Material: Wood; Ebony? Bibliography: Christie's New York, Antiquities, 9/12 1999, 100-101, lot nr. 403.
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Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^Bumped:
quote:Clyde Winters:
A writing system only conveys the sounds of the language.
Which would apply to Meroitic script [and Kharosthi], and hence, no need to look to far-off corners of the planet.
quote:Clyde Winters:
The meaning results from reading the words.
...which you couldn't do in Meroitic, because you don't understand Meroitic language, and since Kushana is neither the same language as Meroitic, nor is its script the same as that of Meroitic, it cannot be used to read Meroitic. The only way you can possibly come close to reading Meroitic using Kharosthi script, is if you had bilingual texts in Meroitic and "Kushana" uncovered in Sudan, for which you have no shred of evidence.
quote:Clyde Winters:
Using the Kushana language you can read any Meroitic text.
How? Kushana [which comprises two or more dialects] isn't Meroitic language. They don't have common recent ancestry, much less share specific relatively culture-free basic & standard lexicon cognates. You'll have us believe that a measly collection of pseudo-lexical correspondence supposedly in 'signs', terms like 'queen', 'agent' et al., and toponyms, allows you to 'fully' translate two very distinct languages belonging to different language superfamilies.
Recap of Clyde's supposed lexical cognates, that allow him to *fully* translate Meroitic script, whose alphabets are strinkingly distinct from Kharosthi script's:
kadke / ktke # queen 0 katak # master of the house
0 ato # water 0 ap #
0 s # 'race' 0 sah # 'man'
0 wide # youth 0 wir #
0 qor # monarch 0 oroce # 'the grand king'
0 parite # agent 0 parwe # 'first'
0 apote # 'envoy' 0 ap # 'father'
Neither of the supposed word comparisons of Ato vs. ap, s vs. sah and wide vs. wir, show lexical correspondence.
Too specific cultural terms like 'king' or 'queen', which are rarely used for comparative analysis, are supposed to be represented by the dubious affiliation of qor vs. oroce and kadke vs. katak.
The only terms above that Clyde openly admits to not having lexical correspondence are supposedly parite vs. parwe and apote vs. ap, yet he still parades them around as part of the already weak lexical cognate collection.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Clyde Winters: Could you please tell us in detail, on which specific lexical, morphological, syntaxic, phonemic, etc., Tokharian/Meroitic similarities you did rely on to do your previous translations?
Thanks in advance.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Clyde Winters: Could you please tell us in detail, on which specific lexical, morphological, syntaxic, phonemic, etc., Tokharian/Meroitic similarities you did rely on to do your previous translations?
Thanks in advance.
This site is reserved for Meroitic artifacts and inscriptions. I have already discussed points of my decipherment earlier in this thread so I will not discuss these issues here, they have also been discussed elsewhere see the following:
You can also check out the following site where I explain my decipherment in detail: Meroitic Decipherment
You seem to have access to a good library you can also check out these articles:
C.A. Winters. (1984). "A note on Tokharian and Meroitic", Meroitic Newsletter, 23, 18-21.
__________. (1989). "Cheikh Anta Diop et le déchiffrement de l’écriture Méroďtique,"Revue
Martiniguaise de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature, No. 8, 149-152.
_________.(1998a). Meroitic Funerary text: Temple architecture and mortuary practices,
InScription: Journal of Ancient Egypt,1 (1), 29-33.
_________.(1998a). Meroitic Funerary text: Stelae and funerary tables, InScription: Journal of Ancient Egypt,1 (2), 41-55.
___________ (1998c). The inscriptions of Tanyidamani. Nubica et Ethiopica IV \ V, 355-388.
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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I understood that, but what I'm requesting is an example of a detailed translation explaining step by step which phonemic, semantic, morphological and syntaxic aspects of Tokharian language allow you to provide translations of any of the Meroitic inscriptions you posted above.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Clyde Winters: Could you please tell us in detail, on which specific lexical, morphological, syntaxic, phonemic, etc., Tokharian/Meroitic similarities you did rely on to do your previous translations?
Thanks in advance.
This site is reserved for Meroitic artifacts and inscriptions. I have already discussed points of my decipherment earlier in this thread so I will not discuss these issues here, they have also been discussed elsewhere see the following:
You can also check out the following site where I explain my decipherment in detail: Meroitic Decipherment
You seem to have access to a good library you can also check out these articles:
C.A. Winters. (1984). "A note on Tokharian and Meroitic", Meroitic Newsletter, 23, 18-21.
__________. (1989). "Cheikh Anta Diop et le déchiffrement de l’écriture Méroďtique,"Revue
Martiniguaise de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature, No. 8, 149-152.
_________.(1998a). Meroitic Funerary text: Temple architecture and mortuary practices,
InScription: Journal of Ancient Egypt,1 (1), 29-33.
_________.(1998a). Meroitic Funerary text: Stelae and funerary tables, InScription: Journal of Ancient Egypt,1 (2), 41-55.
___________ (1998c). The inscriptions of Tanyidamani. Nubica et Ethiopica IV \ V, 355-388.
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Meroitic period (270 BC-350 AD). The deity figure with a Atef crown, holding the Ankh symbol in his right hand, the Was scepter in his left. Above the scepter two columns of hieroglyphs (now unreadable).
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I understood that, but what I'm requesting is an example of a detailed translation explaining step by step which phonemic, semantic, morphological and syntaxic aspects of Tokharian language allow you to provide translations of any of the Meroitic inscriptions you posted above.
My decipherment of Meroitic is based on the Kushana theory.
The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.
The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.
Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. Meroitic is not related to languages spoken in this area. Griffith and Haycock tried to read Meroitic using Nubian and failed. K.H. Priese tried to read the Meroitic text using Eastern Sudani; he also failed.
The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who were engaged in constantly conflict with the Meroites , failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites.
The evidence presented above provides internal and external validity for my theory based upon the sources I have cited previously. The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed[i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence. The fact that the claims made by the Classical writers issupported by the Indians themselves if further strong confirmation of the Kushana hypothesis.
The hypothesis based on the classical literature, was enough to support the original Kushana Hypothesis. The predicting power of the original theory, matches the observed natural phenomena which was confirmed elsewhere by cognate place names, ethononyms, lexicalitems and grammatical features, indicate that my theory has not be falsified.
The ability to reliably predict a linguistic relationship between Kushana and Meroitic, was further confirmation of the Kushana Hypothesis, because the linguistic connections were deducible from prediction. I controlled the Kushana Hypothesis by comparing the statements of the classical writers, with historical, linguistic anthropological and toponymic evidence found not only in Africa, but also India and Central Asia [where the people also used Tokharian as a trade language to unify the various people in Central Asia]. I constructed three testable hypotheses in support of the Kushana theory, and it seems only fair that these variables must be disconfirmed, to falsify the Kushana Hypothesis.
Hypothesis 1: If the meroites used a writing system of non-African origin a tradition mentioning this fact will exist. (Hypothesis confirmed. Classical literature mentions Indian scholars in ancient Meroe.)
Hypothesis: 2. If the classical literature mentions Indians who lived in Egypt influencing the Meroites their should be historical evidence relating to this tradition. (Hypothesis confirmed .Classical literature mentions a King who left his country is mentioned in the Jaina text called the Kalakeharya-Kathanaka.)
Hypothesis: 3. If Classical literature is true about the Indian origin of the Gymnosophists Indians will be found living near the Meroites around the time the Meroitic inscriptions appear. (Hypothesis confirmed. Artifacts and coins with Indian inscriptions have been found in Egypt and Ethiopia.) Failure to disconfirm this theorem, implies validity of myprediction.
My confirmation of the above , and 1) the presence of Kushites in Africa and Asia; 2) Asoka sent many Buddhist missionaries to Egypt who wrote their scriptures in Kharosthi and Tocharian; 3) a Blemmya--native to the Meroitic empire, is mentioned in numerous Buddhist Pali text; 4)the presence of Kushana sages in India who may have migrated to Meroe;5) cognate lexical items; 6)cognate verbs and 7) cognate grammatical features; indicates systematic controlled, critical and empirical investigation of the question of Kushana representing the Meroitic cognate language.
As a result of these facts we can now use Tocharian or Kushana to read the Meroitic text. The historical evidence make it clear that the Meroites were probably not strangers to Kharosthi literacy since the Gymnosophists had been in Upper Egypt and Meroitic Empires hundreds of years.
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Maurice Pope in THE STORY OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL DECIPHERMENT, has made it clear that before an unknown language can be deciphered you must have the right theoretical structure to base your inquiry upon. Pope found that in the historical decipherments of ancient languages three preliminary conditions must be met:
1) confidence that a script can be deciphered; 2) location of proper names must be determined; 3) the grammatical rules of the target language/ script must be found .
We were able to read Meroitic because these preliminary conditions were met, and we were able to develop new hypothesis based on historical evidence to determine the cognate language of Meroitic. Conditions number one and two were met by Griffith when he deciphered the Meroitic script in 1910, and his discovery of the proper names of the Meroitic gods and individuals in Meroitic text. Griffith also discovered the direction the Meroitic writing was written.
This recognition by Griffith of the solubility of the Meroitic text was reinforced in 1978, with publication of UNESCO's The Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Decipherment of the Meroitic Script. This was an important publication because it provided researchers with up-to-date information on the status of Meroitic.
Condition number three for the decipherment of Meroitic was met in 1979 when Fritz Hintze published his Beitrage zur meroitischen Grammatik . The research of F. Hintze (1979) and I. Hoffmann (1981) have made it possible for us to find the cognate language of Meroitic: Tokharian (Winters 1984 ,1989). The work of Griffith and Hintze fulfilled all the requirements for the decipherment of the Meroitic writing. The comparative method was used to find the cognate language of Meroitic. Using this method Meroitic scholars have compared the "known" Meroitic terms to vernacular African languages to establish morphological cognition between Meroitic and an African language. Up to now these linguistic comparisons failed to reveal the cognate language of Meroitic. Researchers working on the Meroitic language do not believe that it was a member of the Afro-Asian group. Griffith and Haycock tried to read Meroitic using Nubian. K.H. Priese, tried to read the Meroitic text using Eastern Sudani; and F. Hintze, attempted to compare Meroitic with the Ural-Altaic group. Recently Siegbert Hummel, compared the "known" Meroitic words to words in the Altaic family which he believed was a substrate language of Meroitic. These scholars failed to find a match between Meroitic and the vernacular languages of Nubia and the Sudan. This made it necessary to turn to the historical literature concerning the Kushites to form a new hypothesis related to possible sources of the Meroitic language. The historical literature of the Kushites comes from Egyptian and classical sources.
LINGUISTIC SUPPORT
The classical literature supported the view that we might be able to find the Meroitic cognate language through a comparison of the Meroitic terms and Kushan lexical items. To test the Kushana hypothesis we had to then: 1) find agreement between Kushana and Meroitic terms; 2) compare Central Asian and Egypto-Sudanese toponomies; 3) compare Kushana and Meroitic grammatical forms.
Hintze's (1979) grammar of Meroitic provided the necessary material to compare Meroitic with other languages to find its cognate language. Hintze (1979) recognized three approaches to the study of Meroitic: 1) philological, 2) comparative, and 3) structural (i.e., the morphological-syntactical). The philological methods of Hintze (1979) were informed guesses based upon context.
In the comparative method the structures of two or more languages are compared to determine the relationship between languages. Hintze's (1979) discussion of the Meroitic affixes provided us with the linguistic material to compare Meroitic successfully with Tocharian. Linguist to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states uses the comparative method.
The comparative linguist looks for patterns of correspondence, i.e., the isolation of words with common or similar meanings that have systematic consonantal agreement with little regard for location and/or type of vowel. Consonantal agreement is the regular appearance of consonants at certain locations in words having analogous meanings.
Using the comparative methods proposed by Hintze we have found that the Meroitic inscriptions are written in Tocharian, a language used as a lingua franca in Central Asia by the Kushana or Kush people. The Kushana people ruled Central Asia and India. Linguist prefer to call the Kushana language Tocharian, after the Sanskrit term for Kushana: Tu-kara.(Winters 1984,1989) There is structural, morphological and toponymic evidence which support the view that Tokharian is cognate to Meroitic (Winters 1984,1989).
There are many Central Asian place names that agree with toponomies in Nubia/ Sudan. Below we list a few of these common toponomies:
Central Asia Sudan
Pap Pap Karnak Karnak Kukushka Kurush Shaur Sarur Kandi Kandi Urban Borgan Khara Kara- Kupuri Gabur, Capur
These placenames cam be compared with the maps of Central Asia and the Sudan supplied me by Dr. Vamos-Toth and attached hereto.
Some of the alleged Meroitic terms, but not all have being verified by my decipherment. What you must remember though, is that most of the alleged Meroitic lexical items were simply guesses by the researchers themselves. These Meroitic terms could only become valid when they can be read in all the Meroitic text and have consistent meaning. I found that some of these terms are homonyms, while other terms "discovered " by Griffith and others were good guesses that do not prove valid given our discovery of the cognate language of Meroitic. There are several recognized Meroitic words they are not of Egyptian origin (Hintze 1979). The following words correspond to Tokharian words:
Meroitic Tokharian
0 kadke / ktke # queen 0 katak # master of the house 0 ato # water 0 ap # 0 s # 'race' 0 sah # 'man' 0 wide # youth 0 wir # 0 qor # monarch 0 oroce # 'the grand king' 0 parite # agent 0 parwe # 'first' 0 apote # 'envoy' 0 ap # 'father'
Around 57% of these terms show agreement. This made it highly probable that Meroitic and Tokharian were cognate languages.
The grammar of Meroitic determined by Hintze (1979) also allowed us to make comparisons with Tocharian to test the Kushana hypothesis for reading Meroitic. This comparison of grammatical structures showed cognition between this language and Meroitic. Hintze was sure that there were number of Meroitic affixes including:
p ye -te -to -o
B.G. Trigger in his "Commentary" (Hintze 1979) mentioned several other possible Meroitic affixes including:
-n -te -b
In addition , A. M. Abdalla in his "Commentary" (Hintze 1979) mentioned three possible verbal suffixes , including:
-n -t -y
The Kushana language includes all of these affixes. Recognition of analogous structural elements in relation to Kushana and Meroitic allowed us to divide the Meroitic phonemes into words. Griffith provided us with evidence for selected Meroitic nouns. Abdalla (Hintze 1979, 149) was sure that he detected several common verbs in Meroitic including: hr, the, tk, we, pl, do, mde and yi mde.
Following this lead we searched the Kushan language to determine if it possessed any verbs that might match the proposed hypothetical verbs of Abdalla. A comparison of Kushan and Meroitic proved to be successful. We now know that he was absolutely right about his interpretation of possible Meroitic verbs. Below is the interpretation of these Meroitic verbs:
hr to have dignity the to move tk to set in motion, to investigate w-e to give escort pl to boast, to praise m-de measure the offering y i m-de go make (full) measure of the offering
Recognition of these Meroitic terms as verbs gave us any more confirmation that Kushana was probably the Meroitic cognate language. This discovery of Meroitic verbs and nouns, and cognate toponomies in Central Asia and Upper-Nubia-Sudan proved that Meroitic could be read using Kushana lexical items.
The discovery that Tocharian is cognate to Meroitic has led to the full decipherment of the Meroitic script. We can now translate Meroitic using Tokharian. This allows us to obtain new information about the Meroitic civilization. My research into Kushan or Tokharian has led me to recognize that this language was probably used as a lingua franca or trade language in Central Asia by the diverse peoples living there in an intense bilingual environment. C. A. Winters (1991) has illustrated how the Greek and Slavic terms in Tokharian were loanwords, absorbed by Tokharian after the Greek conquest of Bactria. This borrowing pattern was consistent with the spread of the Greek language into Bactria by a small elite group of warriors.
To test this hypothesis at attepted to decipher an inscription from Mussawarat es-Sufra. The inscription included several Meroitic signs.
The picture associated with this inscription is a graphic depiction of a sexual experience.
Reading from right to left we have the following Meroitic words
Nem pkh ote
In Kushana these words had the following meaning in Kushana
Nam = tendency Pak = to aim Ote = Wonderment
This allows us to read the Musawwarat es-Sufra inscription as follows: "The tendency (is) to aim for the Wonderment of (sex)!
Once I had made this breakthrough in the decipherment of Meroitic I began to decipher other Meroitic inscriptions and learn more about the Meroitic language.
Meroitic Language
The classical and Egyptian sources make it clear that Upper Nubia and numerous tribes inhabited the Sudan. The possible early use of Kushan\Tokharian as a trade language made it an ideal candidate for use by the Meroitic elites who ruled an empire that was made up of many diverse ethnic groups as the language for literate Meroites.
Meroitic is basically a suffixing language. The funerary tablets are written in the third person.
Conclusion
In conclusion the multiethnic populations that lived in the Meroitic empire used the Meroitic language as a lingua franca. This would explain the inability of earlier researchers to find the cognate language of Meroitic in the Sudan, even though they might find some analogous lexical items.
As a result of the above, I believe that my decipherment of the Meroitic script is correct. You will find that these lexical items allow us to gain insight into the Meroitic religious and funerary world. I look forward to finding some historical Meroitic text, but up to now I have just found materials relating to funerary customs and the Meroitic religion. The Meroitic chamber inscription is interesting , but it also deals mainly with things funerary.
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This site is reserved for Meroitic artifacts and inscriptions. I have already discussed points of my decipherment earlier in this thread so I will not discuss these issues here, they have also been discussed elsewhere see the following:
This Stela dates back to the 2nd to 3rd Centuries. It is has a reddish-white undercoat. It comes from Grave 275, Karanog. The stela is located in Cairo, Egyptian Museum JE40229.
The couple Meteye and Abakharta stand under the inner wings of the sun disk. Meteye wares her hair with a topknot and cornrows. This man may be either Meteye’s husband or father. (I am uncertain because the words ab-a can be interpreted as ‘[her] father’. If this is the correct reading aba Kharta would mean ‘her father Kharta’.)
The grave was excavated by Woolley-Randall-MacIver at Karanog. The skeleton in the grave was of a woman. The pointed breast on the figure indicate that she was a young women. Standing side by side suggest that this man was her husband. Since the grave contained only one skeleton we can imagine that Abakharta was depicted on this stela to show his devotion to his wife.
There are three sets of inscription on this stela. There are inscriptions in front of Meteye and Abakharta, and an inscription between the legs of Abakharta.
Reading from right to left beginning with the inscription between the legs of Abakharta, then the inscription before Abakharta and finally the one in front of Meteye we have the following: Inscription between Abakharta’s legs.
P .. š ….o ….
“Pray for the patron to commence……”
Inscription in front of the man:
Wosi .. ne. Sore… yi-ne. Abkharta… ke ….lo …..wi-ne... a…kh…m…še..
“ Isis the Good. Osiris the eternal. Abakharta gives permission (for) the offering of this Object of Respect (Meteye) to acquire greatness (and) protection.”
“Isis the good. Osiris the eternal. Meteye , renew (her) honor down the path (to) abundant alms giving. The patron [Meteye] has commenced the Rebirth”.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Check out my books: Meroitic Writing and Literature
Meroitic Writing and Literature is divided into three parts. The first part of the book explains how I used the Kushana hypothesis to decipher the Meroitic script. It will outline the Classical literature that informed my decipherment of Meroitic and how Buddhists early settled in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire and spread their religion and writing system: Tocharian.
In Part two we outline the grammar of Meroitic. It will provide readers with a detailed overview of the Meroitic language and its grammar.
Part Three provides translations of key Meroitic text. These texts provide knowledge of the lifeway’s of the Meroites especially their religion and some historical data.
The Meroitic literature discussed in this book include : The Inscriptions of Tanyidamani; The Meroitic Chamber Inscription of Philae; and Meroitic Evidence for a Blemmy Empire in the Dodekaschoinas. These text were chosen because they include text written in archaic Meroitic (Tanyidemani), and other text written in late Meroitic.
Meroitic Writing and Literature, is the first account of the Meroitic language and literature. It will allow readers the opportunity to learn how to read/decipher Meroitic text, while acquiring an intimate knowledge of the Meroites as individuals.
The Meroitic Language, provides a detailed account of the language of the Kushites who founded the Meroitic Empire. In Meroitic Language, Dr. Winters explains his decipherment of the Meroitic language and provides an outline of the grammar of the Meroitic language.
Meroitic language provides readers with the necessary tools to read the Meroitic inscriptions.It also gives the reader key insight into the culture and religion of the Kushites.
Meroitic Language can be purchased at Scribd. Purchase the full version and... • Read the full version in your browser • Send to mobile device • Download as pdf (PDF) • Download as txt (Text file)
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And please don't tell me they spoke Manding!
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). And I hate to jump on bandwagons, I typically think for myself, if anything, I'm rebelious . I just like to be correct ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
