Hotep2u is providing us an opportunity to widen our Nile Valley studies by inadvertantly introducing the the Pan Grave era Medjay. The Medjay resided east of the Nile Valley for the most part. Overtime their residency spans the area east of the southern Lower Nile Valley and the Middle Nile Valley between the Eastern Desert and the Nubian Desert.
Known as mercenaries since Old Kingdom times, its small wonder that they took up Kemtyw employment when more soldiery was needed to oust the Hyksos.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
Here we show some DNA evidence showing a DIFFERENCE between Kerma and Kush notably the Gurna People. This should explain why Kerma sided with the hyksos and Kush sided with Kemet.
Here is a very good study done on the area called Nubia.
quote: Granted that there were several settlements in the region in the pre-Kerma periods, are you saying that the populations who resided at Kerma and Kush, were different folks, i.e., no continuity observed?
This is a good question, I think that at some point within 2500 B.C to 2000 B.C Kerma area was abondoned and later got inhabitted by a foreign group that eventually sided with the Hyksos upon their invasion. Though Kush might have had strong ties with Kemet and showed continuity thus they sided with Kemet in order to remove the Hyksos. The puzzle here is that Kerma sided with the Hyksos which implies that they felt that Kemet did NOT hold their best interest. Though Kush sided with Kemet showing they were very loyal to Kemet, the question then is why did Kush support Kemet and Kerma support the Hyksos? The war that led to the expulsion of the Hyksos proves that a difference between Kerma and Kush existed in my opinion.
Hotep
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I dont see your point. It seems as if you may be saying that they sided with the Hyksos because of a common heritage or ancestry? Of course not. The paper only states the obvious, that people in upper Egypt and Northern Sudan are related to the other populations around them and that the MOST ancient lineages came from Ethiopia, with modern populations having substantial influxes from the Near East. Nothing dramatically new or different about this. The point is that this study still cannot give us a n accurate picture of populations in the same area 5,000 years ago, since modern population samples may be "biased" due to recent migrations.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
The Hykso were Asiatics.
The Kushites were Africans.
The Rm.t [Ancient Egyptians] were Africans.
The Medijay were also Africans.
The conflict that brought about the New Kingdom was political in essence.
It also continued two long running themes of Km.t history -
1) The neverending incursions of Asiatics from the delta.
2) The battle for the Upper Nile valley heartland between Kesh-ite [and various other southerners] and Kemetians.
The Rm.t and their Medijay allies were on one side, the Hyksos and their Kushite 'allies' were on the other.
The conflict was not predicated on who was more related to 'whom'.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Thanks for stating these obvious points Rasol, Hotep2u may have overlooked or submerged them. On one issue I differ. Rather than allies, I suspect the Medjay were only in it for the money. KM.t probably offered more exchange currencies and benefits than did Kesh.
To all: thanks for your contributions! This thread was started to delve into the more or less desert dwelling seminomadic Medjay/Beja of pre-525BCE to amass a body of info such as we recently did for the riverine Nehhesyw.
Anybody got anything on * their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Rather than allies, I suspect the Medjay were only in it for the money.
Allies often are - then and now, politics is still politics. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Gotcha, allies (as in best interest) not allegiance (as in sympathetic or pledged affinity/loyalty).
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Some of these facts you already know:
Photo is from the book The Horizon: History of Africa, American Heritage Publishing Co, 1971, p. 92.
The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
The repertoire of grave goods associated with the Pan Grave culture is limited, but does include certain types of jewelry, such as two-stranded necklaces. These consist of faience disk beads threaded onto an upper and lower string, the strings themselves connected by a series of rectangular plaques, to the lower strand of which were attached rudimentarily formed pendants of ostrich eggshell and mother-of-pearl. These Nubians also appear to have favored earrings, worn in a pierced lobe and crafted of either silver or copper wire formed into hoops with overlapping ends or twisted in numerous spirals. It has been cogently suggested that the ancient Egyptian custom of wearing ear ornaments for the first time in their history during the Second Intermediate Period is due to their adoption of this Nubian practice, which during the course of the New Kingdom became an ancient Egyptian unisex fashion. That the Medjay are desert-Nubians is certain. Their presence has been detected in Old Kingdom contexts, but the Medjay are more frequently encountered as a distinct group during the Middle Kingdom when their designation, Medjay, appears among the named Egyptian foes in the Execration Texts of the Middle Kingdom. On the other hand, the Medjay like the Nubians of the C-Group culture interacted favorably with the Egyptians. In the case of the Medjay, they appear to be reliable allies and formed, therefore, part of the Egyptian army under Kamose in his campaigns against the Hyksos. Some have suggested that a Medjay contingent may have played a primary role in Kamose's interception of the Hyksos embassy en route to Nubia. Members of the Medjay community continued to be of service to the Egyptians of the New Kingdom, during which time they served in Egypt as the equivalent of policemen. They continued to serve in this capacity well into the reign of pharaoh Rameses IV (about 1152-1144 B.C.E.), during which time they accompanied an expedition into the Wadi Hammamat.
Reference:
Daily Life of the Nubians, Robert Steven Bianchi, 2004, pp. 102-103
About the Pan Grave culture, I'll do some digging around in the university archive for information.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
"Saqqara" is in "lower Egypt".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The snippets from
Manfred Bietak The Pan Grave Culture Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo
are reposted below in fuller form.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
On Monday Feb 8 Tom Simms wrote [lst line is quote from me]:
>>Hudi appears to place this particular region in Medjaiu territory... > > From the beginning of the 18th dynasty Medjay were used routinelyv> for police in Egypt. They had no family connections hence were > seen as more trustworthy and hard to bribe.
Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of the Ptolemaic era, were talking about. Chenephres is not the only 13th dynasty king to appear in their tales -- they also identify Tutimaios as the Pharoah who drowned in the Red Sea--- one of the last of the 13th dynasty rulers.
A. Spalinger, writing on Sobekhotep IV in the LdA confirms several details in which the inscriptions match the info provided by Artapanus about Chenephres: 1) his upper Egyptian origin: Artap. called him king of Upper Egypt.[JE] 2) Artapanus states Egypt was divided into several kingdoms at the time of Chenephres, which suggests the kings of the 13th dyn coexisting with kinglets at Kois [the 14th dyn] or "a small Hyksos domain in the NE Delta". [I would say Nehesi the E. Delta kinglet, who might have been washed up and left behind by the Ethiopian invasion in the time of Moses, which was said to have reached the sea.]. Most importantly, 3) "Artapanus also reveals that king Chenphres undertook a campaign against an invasion from Nubia, an account that is confirmed from a contemporary inscription of S. IV." To which I might add my own point: 4) Spalinger shows Sobek IV's wife as Th3n. Josephus calls her Thermouthis. If we add a feminine -t to this name, Th-r-n-t, and allow for the common OK & MK m/n Schwankung, we almost have Th-r-m-th[-is=Grk suffix].
The Papyrus Bulaq describes the visit to the royal court in the time of a King Sobekhotep of a delegation of the Madjaiu. See Scharff in ZAS 57,1922. They are given food and whatever they personally need by "scribe of the vizier", who lists 2 great ones [wrw] of the Madjaiu,a servant, a "small Madjai" [i.e. not an important personage?], and three wives of officials. "These mentioned are so to speak the staff of the delegation, while their leader, who has the foreign name 3?ushpkuwi [?], only arrives 10 days later." Again my termite-eaten old notes, but this is clearly a diplomatic mission of some kind. Much debate has gone on about which Sobekhotep this Papyrus is to be dated to, and now, acc to LdA,the consensus is Sobekhotep II. We only have 3 attested regnal years for him. However, with such short reigns as these, it hardly matters which king. Political situations like impending invasions from Nubia obviously could span several mini reigns.
The point is that the Madjaiu seem always to have been more aligned with Egypt than the other Nubian forces. [Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!] That Moses might have sheltered amongst them in the Eastern or Nubian desert is not unthinkable. Jethro is uncomfortable with the fact that Moses is in flight from the authorities and throws him into a dungeon. In one version he thinks to turn him over to the Egyptians, in another, to the Ethiopians. This is what one would expect of the political situation of the Madjaiu, caught between one great power and another, trying to preserve their own independence and way of life in the desert in the process, lending their military and intelligence skills to their more powerful neighbor to avoid being swallowed by the expanding Kushites.
Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus.
Now the Medjaiu, if they are identified, as has often been done, with the warrior/ mercenaries buried in the Pan Graves, would seem to qualify as Children of the East. The Pan Graves in Lower Nubia are almost always on the Eastern desert fringe of cemeteries,where the C Group tumuli are further toward the Nile.The PG folks are generally thought to have inhabited the E desert and have been at times associated with the modern Bedja. The latter have also been connected to the Medja and to the Blemmyes, and some have connected this name to Balaam! [Interesting that in 1922 Sharff transcribes the Medjaiu as "the Matoi", for the Old Nubian word for East was matto, matt-okki/Easterners in modern Mahas.Coincidental connections]. The Medjaiu had been around since the 6th dynasty era when the Heqa Kh3su of Nubia supplied manpower for Egyptian blitzkriegs in the Levant led by General Uni.(Yes the various rulers of Nubia at that time were called Hyksos too, and when the posterity of their armies became military ruling castes in Canaan in the MBI & II, the Egyptians still called them that! Shepherd kings, rulers of nomadic or non-urbanized ethnic groups... )
I am not going to try to unravel this politico-military ethnic situation in Nubia which seems to have begun building up during the MK and came to a head during the 13th dynasty.[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?] We do know that KhaneferRe Sobekhotep IV did fight some kind of campaign in Nubia, perhaps against the nearer jwntiw, or even against Kush itself, who were soon to nyam off the lst nome of Upper Egypt. It is interesting that the version which has Moses fighting on the side of the Ethiopians against the Bene Kedem is placed during the time of his exile, while Josephus' version, which has Moses laying waste the Ethiopians, is placed during his earlier Egyptian military career, before his glorious return, his crime, and his flight. One could thus assume that implicit Egyptian support lay behind Balaam's nearly successful attempt to conquer the Kushite kingdom, and that indeed this support was what Balaam [and the wru of Mdjaiu?] had been seeking at Iti Tawi.But Moses had switched sides, now that he was on the lam!
Whatever you make of all of these "fairy tales", the real historial role of the Madjaiu goes way beyond the fact that individual Madjaiu may have emigrated to Egypt and were employed as police, something which they had been doing since at least the 5th dynasty.
Later, much later, when the last 17th dynasty ruler Kamose is struggling against the Hyksos in the Cusae region we find that Medjaiu are used as troops.[Grimal, p 191:"Kamose marched his Medjay troops north to Nefrusy"- as if they were his whole army!] At that time Kamose intercepts a Hyksos letter being sent by way of the western oases to the Kerma Kushites, who have been friendly with the Hyksos, inviting them to help them fight against Egypt. The Theban ruler claims he is hemmed in by A3mw in the North and Nehesu in the South. When the Hyksos have finally been defeated and expelled by Ahmose of the 18th, the next order on the agenda is a drive south against the Kerma Kushites. I am not clear if the Medjaiu also took part in this campaign, but it would seem likely that at least the ones already serving in Egypt did. So in the line up Kush+A3mw vs Kemt + Madjaiu, we find the latter playing a key role in the global politics of the region, on the opposite side of the fence as Kush -- a situation reflected in the legends.
E Adams.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Since King Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom.
This fragment of relief comes from the tomb of one of the wives of King Mentuhotep II at Deir el-Bahri. It shows the queen with distinctly Nubian facial features and a close-cropped, curled hairstyle. We can assume that the royal house of the early Middle Kingdom, residing at Thebes, had close connections with Nubia.
Photo and text from the book Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, 1997, p. 81
The majority of the scenes in the chapel take their inspiration from the Book of The Dead, but the artist has nevertheless managed to express a certain degree of originality in their details. The sequence of scenes unfolds according to a logical order: the funeral and the scenes on earth which follow the death, lead to the door of the burial chamber. From then, unfold the scenes showing the life of the deceased in the Amenti, at the border of which Amenemonet is greeted by King Mentuhotep and Queen Neferys. Scenes of worship to Amun, Horus, Maat and other deities, conclude this decorative programme. The mural paintings, with their bright and fresh colours, are painted on a pale bluish-white wash throughout the chapel.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This otherwise good information is marred by suppositions about biblical personages that can neither be confirmed or disconfirmed by any historical records.
Rasol is it anyway possible to trim the fat and keep the meat?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
On Monday Feb 8 Tom Simms wrote [lst line is quote from me]:
>>Hudi appears to place this particular region in Medjaiu territory... > > From the beginning of the 18th dynasty Medjay were used routinelyv> for police in Egypt. They had no family connections hence were > seen as more trustworthy and hard to bribe.
Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of the Ptolemaic era, were talking about.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
[Reposted from earlier in the thread after more fleshing out]
I'm hoping Bietak is more accurate here than he was about the C-Group. Snippets from his article for Nubia Museum on The Pan Grave Culture
quote: The carriers of this specific Nubian culture are thought to have been nomads from the Eastern Desert and are identified with the Medjay (later the Bedja) of the Egyptian texts - a designation of the desert Nubians in contrast to the Nehesy-Nubians of the Nile valley. This may be the correct assessment for a part of this population. The Medja land is known, however, since the late Old Kingdom and seems to have been situated near the Nile. Since king Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom.This may have triggered the move of the Pan Grave people to Lower Nubia and Egypt. According to both the Semna Despatches, dating from the late twelfth Dynasty (c. 1850-1800 BC), and the name of the 10th Nubian M[iddle] K[ingdom] fortress "Khesef-Medjayu" - "The one which repells the Medjay"- the Egyptian military authorities tried to stop this immigration from the desert, but in vain. Pan Grave cemeteries can be found in Lower Nubia and at many sites in Egypt dating principally from the time of the late Middle Kingdom and early Second Intermediate Period (c. 1800-1600 BC). Normally the cemeteries are small and situated on the fringe of the desert, often in the vicinity of cemeteries belonging to the local population. The most important sites are Deir Rifeh, Mostagedda with the largest cemetery, Qau, Balabish, Hu, Tôd, Daraw, and in Nubia at Shellal, Dakka, Wadi Allâqi, Sayâla, Aniba, Toshka, and at several places between Faras and Gammai. Sherds of this culture have been found at many other sites in Egypt extending as far north as Memphis. The most distinct cluster is, however, in Middle and Upper Egypt and in Lower Nubia.
The name Pan Grave Culture comes from the typical circular pit graves, which sometimes have a small stone circle as their superstructure. The dead are buried in a crouched position, on their right side, oriented either according to the absolute co-ordinates north-south with the head in the north, looking west, or oriented east-west, with the head in the east, looking south. The bodies rest on mats and are wrapped in leather or fur. They seem to have also imported Egyptian linen according to the representation of a Medjay man painted on a bukranium. This painting also shows the coiffure bulging backwards, in a similar manner to that worn in modern times by the Watussi men.
Pan-Grave pottery consists of open, flat, round-bottomed bowls with polished surfaces, and ledged rims. They are either plain polished with a black polished interior, which extends over the rim in the form of a black top. Other types of such bowls show an incised pattern, produced by a rough comb in criss-cross fashion. Beadwork of ostrich egg shell and nerita snails can be found with burials of both genders and are typical for this culture. The latter show connections via the eastern desert to the Red Sea. The Pan Grave people also had shell strip bracelets which seem to occur only in this culture. Very specific is the deposition of the bukrania of gazelles or goats, often painted with red dots, within the superstructure of the tombs. We also meet a similar custom with bull bukrania among the Kerma Culture.
No domestic architectural features are known from the Pan Grave Culture. Camps only display open-air features. The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features. This made them very suitable for the warrior profession. Often weapons of Egyptian typology such as daggers and battle axes, as well as bowstrings and arrow tips are found in their graves. This documents the employment of those people as warriors of the 13th and early 17th Dynasties. Records of the 13th Dynasty show different Medjay delegations being received at court.
Towards the end of the Second Intermediate Period the Medjay seem to have completely adopted the Kerma Culture which shows that new waves of immigrants had arrived. We may conclude this since according to Egyptian records the Medjay were engaged by the Theban late 17th and early 18th Dynasties as soldiers against the Hyksos. Nubian graves and settlement remains in Egypt from this period at Deir el-Ballas, Avaris and elsewhere reveal, however, no Pan Grave features but only signs of the Kerma Culture.
During the New Kingdom the Medjay were formed into a special force in charge of the deserts and the necropoleis. They served under Egyptian officers and, by means of documents can be followed up to the time of the 20th Dynasty, although nothing of their original culture has survived so late within the archaeological record. Nevertheless the Medjay were still remembered in Ptolemaic times as being associated with the eastern desert and bringing the traditional product of this region, gold.
Manfred Bietak, Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo
Bibliography for C-Group and Pan Grave Culture:
W.Y. ADAMS, Nubia, Corridor to Africa, Princeton 1977; M. BIETAK, Ausgrabungen in Sayala-Nubien 1961-1965, Denkmälerler der C-Gruppe und der Pan-Gräber-Kultur Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1966; IDEM, Studien zur Chronologie der nubischen C-Gruppe, Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1968; IDEM, The C-Group and the Pan-Grave Culture in Nubia”, in: Nubian Culture: Past and Present, Kunigl. Vitterhets historie och antikvitets akademiens Konferenser 17. Stockholm (Swedish Academy of Letters) 1987, 113-128; C. BONNET, Kerma, Royaume de Nubie, Geneva 1990; J. BOURRIAU, "Relations between Egypt and Kerma during the and the New Kingdoms", in: Egypt and Africa, Nubia from Prehistory to Islam, ed. by W.V. Davies. London (British Museum) 1991; B. TRIGGER, History and Settlement in Lower Nubia, New Haven 1965.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This Mentuhotpe was considered a savior and founder of T3wy who relying on Nehhesyw resources consolidated Upper Egypt and conquered Lower Egypt to restore the unity of the Two Lands after the chaos and ravages of greedy self-interest Lower Egyptian nomarchs, unrestrained by a senile Pepy II, led to the breakdown known as the First Intermediate Period.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
We can assume that the royal house of the early Middle Kingdom, residing at Thebes, had close connections with Nubia.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay
The 15th king of the 17th Dynasty was the son Queen Ahhotep I, and the brother of Ahmose I. Kamose went into war with the Hyksos with horse and chariot. His chariots were lighter and more maneuverable than in previous eras. He also had the advantage by having the Medjay as allies. These Nubian forces were ferocious hand to hand combatants that fought in the front lines. Kamose overcame the enemy at Nefrusy and moved into the oasis of Baharia. He then sailed up and down the Nile in search of traitors. When Kamose died, either of natural causes or of battle wounds, without an heir, his brother Ahmose I took the throne. Kamose was the last king of the 17th Dynasty. Ahmose I was to begin the 18th dynasty New Kingdom.
Ahmose I
King Ahmose I (Aahmes I) brother/husband to Ahmose-Nefertari
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Rasol is it anyway possible to trim the fat and keep the meat?
I don't agree with some of it, but it isn't my writing so....I'm relying on the reader to extract what is of value, rather than editing without the writers permission.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I think this in particular is what Rasol is looking for in a repro of the original primary document now mislabeled as Carnarvon Tablet I which Labib Habachi corrected to The second stela of Kamose.
2nd stela of Kamose, Luxor Museum.
quote: His majesty spoke in his palace to the council of nobles who were in his retinue: 'Let me understand what this strength of mine is for! (One) prince is in Avaris [1], another is in Ethiopia, and (here) I sit associated with an Asiatic and a Negro! Each man has his slice of this Egypt, dividing up the land with me.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay
Most specifically, I am looking for is the mdw ntr source for the following which I placed in boldface:
Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!] Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Most specifically, I am looking for is the mdw ntr source for the following which I placed in boldface:
Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!
I couldn't find that statement in The Admonitions of Ipuwer, but still looking for more writings.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
It's probably this interpretation from your link: The Medjay are pleased with Egypt: The Madjoi fortunately are with Egypt. (Wilson); The Medjai are content with Egypt." (Lichtheim)
But what does the original mdw ntr, actually 'say'?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The Ipuwer Papyrus (which doesn't appear to have any such quote) is from the 12th dynasty, centuries before Kamose plays his part in his family's three generation war against the Hyksos at the very end of the 17th and the very beginning of the 18th dynasties.
If you want Kamose's description of Hyksos, Keshli, and Medjay you'll have to get it from his two stelae. I wouldn't rely much on a post to ANE from someone who places the Midrash on the same plane as primary documentation left by those actually involved.
The Midrash is, however, excellent for arriving at how the Judaeans perceived things through the eyes of their "religious authorities" and can help piece out some anthropological and social puzzles.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
In the meantime,
[Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!]
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
I'm not trying to change the topic just getting the facts in order because the Oriental Institute of Chicago is a RACIST and deceitful organization.
quote: .[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?]
LIE LIE LIE Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe and not native Afrikans the historic writers make it quite clear that Troglodytes who lived in North west Afrika lived in Caves so the word Troglodytes means "CAVE DWELLERS" here is some info on the Troglodytes.
quote: Mankind has added to the unique character of the region by carving cave dwellings into the hillsides and larger tufa cones here. The ancient Phrygians were probably the first to discover that the soft tufa was easily carved out into rooms and passageways . But it was the early Christians, several centuries later, that really seemed to "go to town," so to speak, building houses and even entire underground cities out of the soft rock. As you drive through the many valleys of Cappadocia, you see many ancient windows and doorways peeking out from the rock faces, but in a few areas, the work is especially interesting. The Goreme Valley, by the town of the same name, is loaded with tufa cones which have been carved into dwellings. Many of them are still inhabited today, and some have even been converted into hotels and pensions where you can sleep in an authentic cave room!
On the Terrace at Esbelli Evi
On our final day in Cappadocia, we visited the remarkable underground city of Derinkuyu, where a population of thousands actually lived sometime between 2000BC and 500AD. Derinkuyu is the largest of several similar underground cities in Cappadocia. Nobody is really sure who originally built these cities or when, but one theory holds that the Christians probably happened upon the remains of an ancient Phrygian complex here, and then expanded on it. They were then able to retreat into their completely-hidden subterranean city to hide from Arab raiding parties. The place is really amazing. There are some eight levels of underground rooms and passageways totalling some 1500 square meters discovered so far, with more exacavation work yet to be done. The troglodytes (underground dwellers) who lived here invented ingenious ventilation and defensive systems for their city. Dozens of hidden air vents reach to the surface, and large disc-shaped rocks weighing many tons could be rolled into place to block off the entry passages, making the city virtually impenetrable to outsiders. The troglodytes could hole themselves up in their underground cities indefinitely, leaving through secret passageways only to tend their fields when necessary. Taking a walk through the labyrinth of tunnels and rooms was like being in a J.R.R. Tolkien novel. Where are the hobbits?!
Historical writers make it known that the Troglodytes live underground in the DAYTIME to escape the HEAT of the SUN and came out at NIGHT. Such behavior is associated with people who are not endowed with the physical attributes to deal with the SUN.
quote: Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of , were talking about. Chenephres is not the only 13th dynasty king to appear in their tales -- they also identify Tutimaios as the Pharoah who drowned in the Red Sea--- one of the last of the 13th dynasty rulers.
We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
Hotep
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
"Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley"
I thought 'Nehesyw' was a name the Egyptians used to describe the settled riverine 'Nubians'. So the nomadic Medjay wer also called Nehesyw?
quote:rasol says:
The Hykso were Asiatics.
The Kushites were Africans.
The Rm.t [Ancient Egyptians] were Africans.
The Medijay were also Africans.
The conflict that brought about the New Kingdom was political in essence.
It also continued two long running themes of Km.t history -
1) The neverending incursions of Asiatics from the delta.
2) The battle for the Upper Nile valley heartland between Kesh-ite [and various other southerners] and Kemetians.
The Rm.t and their Medijay allies were on one side, the Hyksos and their Kushite 'allies' were on the other.
The conflict was not predicated on who was more related to 'whom'.
LOL
Ironically and humorously, the 'old scholars' have been claiming the Egyptian (read: "caucasian") vs. Nubian (read: "negro") war for the longest, even though the Asiatic Hyksos (even more "caucasian") were allies of the Kushites who are of course 'Nubian' (negro) and the "caucasian" Egyptians were allies of the Medjay who are also 'Nubians' (negro)!!
What a mess the 'old scholars' have gotten themselves into! If only they realized these politics had nothing to do with 'race' but with domination of one polity over another. All groups involved were indigenous (black) Africans, except of course the Hyksos. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
These Nubians also appear to have favored earrings, worn in a pierced lobe and crafted of either silver or copper wire formed into hoops with overlapping ends or twisted in numerous spirals. It has been cogently suggested that the ancient Egyptian custom of wearing ear ornaments for the first time in their history during the Second Intermediate Period is due to their adoption of this Nubian practice, which during the course of the New Kingdom became an ancient Egyptian unisex fashion..
It's interesting that you mention this, since wasn't it the Kushites that introduced what Egyptologists call the "shield earrings" which became especially popular among royals of the New Kingdom?? The "shield earrings" by the way, are those large circle earings that looked like small shields and were worn mostly by the women of the New Kingdom, like Tiye for example.
The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
quote:rasol writes: "Saqqara" is in "lower Egypt".
So this means that the Medjay territory stretched well into Lower Egypt.
Since the Medjay were 'Nubians', living so far north into Lower Egypt just messes up the 'old scholar's' demarcation of Egypt and Nubia, huh? Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Don't let your overconcern with racial polemic invictives deprive you of good learning tools Hotep2u.
In our context the "Troglodytes" were people who mostly mined in the Eastern Desert. They (the YNTYW) enter Nile Valley records under seige.
On the "Palermo" Stone one early ruler whose name is lost has one year of his reign noted as the "Year of Smiting the Troglodytes."
Khufu has it recorded on a Sinai inscription that he's "Khnum-Khufu, Great God, Smiter of the Troglodytes."
The YNTYW habitation was called the highlands. Henu, minister of Mentuhotpe IV, employed them as bodyguards during his Hammamat expedition "the hunters and the children of the highlands were posted as the protection of my limbs."
Mentuhotpe IV himself tells us the YNTYW adored Min, "... Min of Koptos, lord of the highlands, head of the Troglodytes, ..."
Senwosret III named a fort that he had built in Wawat at a site south of Semnah "Repulse-of-the-Troglodyte's." There was even a "Repulse-of -the-Troglodyte's" feast on the 21st of Pharmuthi that was celebrated up to the time of Thutmose III.
That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
* their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
not by a rant against what in your mind is a "racist, deceitful" Oriental Institute of Chicago and "those hotdamn Jews" not even the wonderful Jewish Troglodytes of the Djebels of Libya who have sense enough to stay out of the hot dry desert sun like anybody with a brain would likewise do.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Since the Medjay were 'Nubians', living so far north into Lower Egypt just messes up the 'old scholar's' demarcation of Egypt and Nubia, huh
And let's not forget that Hotep and Altakruri have shown us that one of the oldest AUTHENTIC references to Nubia actually pertains to a city in pre-dynastic Ta Shemu - known in modern scholarship as Naquada [and Arab word].
The ws.t concept of Nubia is like - 'the Matrix'. It's and invention to keep the African scholar pre-occupied and pacified so 'agent Smith' [aka western scholarship] can maintain control of 'history'. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:What a mess the 'old scholars' have gotten themselves into! If only they realized these politics had nothing to do with 'race' but with domination of one polity over another
The sickest comment i've ever read from a western scholar stated that the "Egyptians" practised mummification so that when western historians came along and dug up their graves - they wouldn't be confused with "negros".
Talk about projection, and borderline psychopathy of racism!
ps - will try to source the quote, later.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Ipuwer Papyrus (which doesn't appear to have any such quote) [Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!]
The question is still - what does it actually say?
Some quote is interpreted by Myra's link by three different scholars - so something is said, but what?
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
quote: So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
No need for Jew baitin', just making sure that your aware that this topic might spill over into Jewish history because Hyksos were sent to live in a land called Canaan so keep that mind before you venture into Jewish history. Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
alTakruri wrote:
quote: That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
Budge Volume 1 page 59b makes it known that on the EASTERN SIDE of the Nile between the Area of the Red Sea and the Nile is the location we should be focusing on. Eastern Desert Tribes in General, so if the original Mdu Ntr can be shown that should also clear this up.
Hotep
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
Already got to the bottom of it, when Ausar mentioned the following:
The term Kerma is a modern term for a village around Northern Sudan. Kush[although some dispute it] was a term that ancient Kemetians applied to regions in the Upper Nile. The town known today as Kerma is possibly the Yam of the Old Kingdom texts of Km.t.
Since the people of Kerma had no writting,and Merotic is mostly undeciphered we don't know much about them except from archaeological remains. We do have some textual correspondence between the Kushites and Hykos leader that was intercepted by Kamose…
I believe the correspondence and Kamose aprehending the Kushite messanger to the Hykos comes from the Kamose stela. You can read second hand translations of the stea in the following books:
Ancient Egyptian Literature: A Book of Readings: Vol. 2, The New Kingdom (Paperback) by Miriam Lichtheim
The second Stela of Kamose and his struggle against the Hyksos ruler and his capital
by Labib Habachi
...or are you aware of a case different, that we don't yet know about?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
According to the earliest records that we have mentioning the Medjay.
When Pepy I (~2289-2255 BCE) of the 6th dynasty wages war against the `A3mw Hhrywsh`a (sand-dwellers) Weny gathers recruits from the "Irthet (YRTT) Nehhesyw, the Mazoi (MDj') Nehhesyw, the Yam (Ym'm) Nehhesyw, among the Wawat (W'W'.T) Nehhesyw, among the Kau (K''W) Nehhesyw, and in the land of Temeh (TMHH)."
Then later, during the reign of Merenre (~2255-2246 BCE), Weny, who was eventually made Governor of the South, was sent to dig a channel through the 1st cataract. The pharaoh himself came to inspect the area, noted as the hill country, and personally met with the rulers of Mazoi (MDj'), Irthet (YRTT), and Wawat (W'W'T).
Later still, Weny is sent to dig canals and build cargo and tow boats out of Wawat acacia wood. He specifically says the rulers of Irthet (YRRTT), Wawat, Yam (Y'M) and Mazoi (MDj') who attend the project are Nehesu.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley"
I thought 'Nehesyw' was a name the Egyptians used to describe the settled riverine 'Nubians'. So the nomadic Medjay wer also called Nehesyw?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Substitute speculation with some serious research before presenting unsubstantiated guesswork. No one's ever agreed to the "racial hypothesis" for the situational conflicts leading to the founding of the 18th Dynasty. This thread's participants so far all agree with standard political science reasoning behind alliances and national rivalries.
Nothing like a Blacks vs Jews war had anything to do with it at all. Serious scholarship has ceased trying to make every A3mw group from the Retenu to the Hyksos to the Haribu into Jews, a people who just weren't in existance at the time and whose forebearers are first noted as landless people called YSR'L on the Merenptah stela 300 years after the Hyksos.
Don't forget this thread is about the Medjay who so far we've seen are * documented from the 6th dynasty all the way to the Ptolemaic era, * lived everywhere from near Kerma to the desert to near the Delta * practiced Kerma, Pan Grave and KM.t cultures * were everything from nomads to militarists
But please feel free to start a "Hyksos are Jews and the Keshli of Kerma were part Jewish and that's why they were at odds with KM.t and why the Hyksos called them son" thread.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: No need for Jew baitin', just making sure that your aware that this topic might spill over into Jewish history because Hyksos were sent to live in a land called Canaan so keep that mind before you venture into Jewish history. Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
alTakruri wrote:
quote: That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
Budge Volume 1 page 59b makes it known that on the EASTERN SIDE of the Nile between the Area of the Red Sea and the Nile is the location we should be focusing on. Eastern Desert Tribes in General, so if the original Mdu Ntr can be shown that should also clear this up.
Hotep
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
A Few "Pan Grave" Sites
Members of the "Pan Grave" culture (ca. 2500-1500 BC), named for its shallow circular graves, served as bowmen and mercenaries in the Egyptian military and are attested in burials not only in Nubia but in Egypt itself.
Site 1
The term "Pan Grave" was created by Flinders Petrie for a culture first discovered by him during cemetery excavation in Kahun, Upper Egypt in 1898-99. Kahun is known as the pyramid builders' town.
Site 2
Friedman, Renée, Pebbles, Pots and Petroglyphs. Excavations at HK64, in: The Followers of Horus. Studies Hoffman, 99-106.
"The remote locality Hierakonpolis HK64 contains numerous graffiti and petroglyphs, and abundant surface ceramics and quartz pebbles. The evidence reveals a strong Nubian component and the presence of the nomadic Pan Grave people in the Pre- and Protodynastic Periods."
A painted ox skull with a portrait of a Pan Grave chief from Mostagedda, Middle Egypt. Second Intermediate Period. (Now in the British Museum.)
At Mostagedda, Brunton excavated several small Predynastic villages consisting of hut circles and middens. Cemeteries range in date from the Badarian and Predynastic to Dynastic and Pan-grave (Second Intermediate Period, following the Middle Kingdom; Brunton 1937: 3-4). North of Mostagedda at Matmar more Predynastic graves were excavated, mainly in Cemetery 2600-2700. Scattered in different areas at Matmar were graves with Sequence Dates of 74-81 (late Predynastic, early Dynastic; Brunton 1948: pl. 8-10, 20).
Site 3
SLIWA, Joachim, Siedlung des Mittleren Reiches bei Qasr el-Sagha, in: Atti VI Congresso. I, 565-571.
"The site of Qasr el-Sagha has a west and east settlement dating from the M.K., of which the first, probably destined for workmen, shows a strictly geometrical ground plan. The site was fortified and contained a number of 30 living units of equal size, possibly having sleeping room for 40 persons. The ceramics confirm the M.K. dating, at the latest the S.I.P. An interesting, typically XIIth Dynasty feature was the regularly curved "snake" wall, which here served no constructional or other function, since it was found below street level. Its symbolic function may be connected with a foundation ritual. The inhabitants of the town were probably engaged in mining activities at the nearby Gebel Qatrani. The finds in the eastern settlement point to a more workshop-like character there than in the western one. There is evidence for the Pan Grave culture at the site."
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Question:
What specific term in Mdu Ntr makes translators think that the term "troglodyte" is justified as its equivalent?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Black-Top Pottery
Petrie excavated at Rifeh some 'pan graves' (Petrie 1907: 20-21), belonging to Nubian people living in Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period. Pan grave pottery is very similar to C-Group pottery. The surface is decorated with incised patterns. Other vessels are reddish-brown with a black top, very similar to the 'Kerma beakers', but not polished.
[dates approximated]
Badarian Pottery (4500-3800 BC)
Kerma Pottery (3000-1500 BC)
Pan Grave Pottery (2500-1500 BC)
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Posted earlier on the Pan Grave folks...
"The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features." - Manfred Bietak
An interesting comment from M. Beitak; wonder if these "archaic" characteristics extant prior to and 'apparently' during times contemporaneous to the so-called Pan Grave folks, has been identified in the living groups of the Nile Valley region...particularly the groups identified with them, the Beja.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
(Left) Beja pastoralist from 12th Dynasty Tomb Mier; (right) Modern Beja pastoralists, men are known for their large natural hair styles.
From the book A Modern History of the Sudan, P.M. Holt, 1961.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
^^Right; the "Fuzzy Wuzzies". I've seen that LHS image on the nubianet.org site (below) before. Striking resemblance in body build, height and hair style to those of the Bejas.
One thing is for sure, and that is the Medjay certainly weren't the Arab warriors portrayed in The Mummy movies!!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^^ What Nubianology ultimately amounts to, in spite of all it's good intentions.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
The Beja people were one of two broad multi-tribal groupings supporting the Mahdi, and were divided into three tribes. One of these, the Hadendoa, was nomadic along Sudan's Red Sea coast and provided a large number of cavalry and mounted infantry (called jehadiya). They carried breech-loaded rifles, and many of them had acquired military experience in the Egyptian army.
The name "Fuzzy Wuzzy" may be purely English in origin, or it may incorporate some sort of Arabic pun (possibly based on ghazi, "warrior"). It alludes to their butter-matted hair which gave them a "frizzy" look. This represents a rather weak attempt at humor on the part of British imperial troops, which had learned to respect the Hadendoa on the battlefield.
Wikipedia Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The name "Fuzzy Wuzzy" may be purely English in origin, or it may incorporate some sort of Arabic pun (possibly based on ghazi, "warrior"). It alludes to their butter-matted hair which gave them a "frizzy" look. This represents a rather weak attempt at humor on the part of British imperial troops, which had learned to respect the Hadendoa on the battlefield.
Indeed.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm hoping Bietak is more accurate here than he was about the C-Group. Snippets from his article for Nubia Museum on The Pan Grave Culture
The carriers of this specific Nubian culture are thought to have been nomads from the Eastern Desert and are identified with the Medjay (later the Bedja) of the Egyptian texts - a designation of the desert Nubians in contrast to the Nehesy-Nubians of the Nile valley. This may be the correct assessment for a part of this population. The Medja land is known, however, since the late Old Kingdom and seems to have been situated near the Nile. Since king Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom. This may have triggered the move of the Pan Grave people to Lower Nubia and Egypt. According to both the Semna Despatches, dating from the late twelfth Dynasty (c. 1850-1800 BC), and the name of the 10th Nubian M[iddle] K[ingdom] fortress "Khesef-Medjayu" - "The one which repells the Medjay"- the Egyptian military authorities tried to stop this immigration from the desert, but in vain. Pan Grave cemeteries can be found in Lower Nubia and at many sites in Egypt dating principally from the time of the late Middle Kingdom and early Second Intermediate Period (c. 1800-1600 BC). Normally the cemeteries are small and situated on the fringe of the desert, often in the vicinity of cemeteries belonging to the local population. The most important sites are Deir Rifeh, Mostagedda with the largest cemetery, Qau, Balabish, Hu, Tôd, Daraw, and in Nubia at Shellal, Dakka, Wadi Allâqi, Sayâla, Aniba, Toshka, and at several places between Faras and Gammai. Sherds of this culture have been found at many other sites in Egypt extending as far north as Memphis. The most distinct cluster is, however, in Middle and Upper Egypt and in Lower Nubia. -------------------------------------------------
Being nomads, I don't Medjay had actual 'kingdoms' like the Egyptians or the Kushites, but there is no doubt they had a ruling elite among them similar to those of other nomadic groups like the Scythian nomads of the Russian steppes whose 'royal' burial mounds were excavated and whose 'princesses' married Greek governors and nobles. I believe such was the case with the Medjay and that there was definitely an alliace between them and the Egyptians even before the advent of Kamose and the rise of the New Kingdom. The marriage of this Medjai princess may be proof of this.
However, even though the Medjay were allies of the Egyptians, I can understand the Egyptians' need to regulate their borders and prevent any unwanted incursions of Medjay people onto their lands. Such sudden incursions of foreigners may prove to be disruptive both economically as well as politically. The cause of the Medjay dispersals-- the Kerma domination also seems to be another likely factor to strengthen the Medjay alliance with the Egyptians especially in the war against the Kushites.
------------------------------------------------- The name Pan Grave Culture comes from the typical circular pit graves, which sometimes have a small stone circle as their superstructure. The dead are buried in a crouched position, on their right side, oriented either according to the absolute co-ordinates north-south with the head in the north, looking west, or oriented east-west, with the head in the east, looking south. The bodies rest on mats and are wrapped in leather or fur. They seem to have also imported Egyptian linen according to the representation of a Medjay man painted on a bukranium. This painting also shows the coiffure bulging backwards, in a similar manner to that worn in modern times by the Watussi men. -------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have this representation of a Medjay man??
------------------------------------------------- Pan-Grave pottery consists of open, flat, round-bottomed bowls with polished surfaces, and ledged rims. They are either plain polished with a black polished interior, which extends over the rim in the form of a black top. Other types of such bowls show an incised pattern, produced by a rough comb in criss-cross fashion. Beadwork of ostrich egg shell and nerita snails can be found with burials of both genders and are typical for this culture. The latter show connections via the eastern desert to the Red Sea. The Pan Grave people also had shell strip bracelets which seem to occur only in this culture[/b]. Very specific is the deposition of the bukrania of gazelles or goats, often painted with red dots, within the superstructure of the tombs. We also meet a similar custom with bull bukrania among the Kerma Culture. -------------------------------------------------
No doubt such material culture is continuous with the Sudanese Mesolithic.
------------------------------------------------- No domestic architectural features are known from the Pan Grave Culture. Camps only display open-air features. The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features. This made them very suitable for the warrior profession. Often weapons of Egyptian typology such as daggers and battle axes, as well as bowstrings and arrow tips are found in their graves. This documents the employment of those people as warriors of the 13th and early 17th Dynasties. Records of the 13th Dynasty show different Medjay delegations being received at court. -------------------------------------------------
As can be seen with modern day nomads of Northeast Africa, houses were simple and usually made of bio-degradable material like sticks and reeds so I would expect little evidence of homes. And of course the Medjay were famed for their armed services to the Egyptians from soldiers to policemen, which is another interesting parallel to the Greeks who would also employ Scythian nomads into such services because of their tall statures and their skill with the bow.
------------------------------------------------ Towards the end of the Second Intermediate Period the Medjay seem to have completely adopted the Kerma Culture which shows that new waves of immigrants had arrived. We may conclude this since according to Egyptian records the Medjay were engaged by the Theban late 17th and early 18th Dynasties as soldiers against the Hyksos. Nubian graves and settlement remains in Egypt from this period at Deir el-Ballas, Avaris and elsewhere reveal, however, no Pan Grave features but only signs of the Kerma Culture. -------------------------------------------------
Interesting. I wonder what initiated such a change in their culture. Was it really immigration of Kushites??
------------------------------------------------- During the New Kingdom the Medjay were formed into a special force in charge of the deserts and the necropoleis. They served under Egyptian officers and, by means of documents can be followed up to the time of the 20th Dynasty, although nothing of their original culture has survived so late within the archaeological record. Nevertheless the Medjay were still remembered in Ptolemaic times as being associated with the eastern desert and bringing the traditional product of this region, gold.
Manfred Bietak, Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo
Bibliography for C-Group and Pan Grave Culture:
W.Y. ADAMS, Nubia, Corridor to Africa, Princeton 1977; M. BIETAK, Ausgrabungen in Sayala-Nubien 1961-1965, Denkmälerler der C-Gruppe und der Pan-Gräber-Kultur Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1966; IDEM, Studien zur Chronologie der nubischen C-Gruppe, Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1968; IDEM, The C-Group and the Pan-Grave Culture in Nubia”, in: Nubian Culture: Past and Present, Kunigl. Vitterhets historie och antikvitets akademiens Konferenser 17. Stockholm (Swedish Academy of Letters) 1987, 113-128; C. BONNET, Kerma, Royaume de Nubie, Geneva 1990; J. BOURRIAU, "Relations between Egypt and Kerma during the and the New Kingdoms", in: Egypt and Africa, Nubia from Prehistory to Islam, ed. by W.V. Davies. London (British Museum) 1991; B. TRIGGER, History and Settlement in Lower Nubia, New Haven 1965. -------------------------------------------------
So the Medjay were completely assimilated? What about today's modern Beja, although they still practice many ancient customs why did they stop others?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I don't know. My focus is on the Medjay/Eastern Desert based Nehhesyw of some 2000+ years ago.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ So is my focus. My question is why did the Pan Grave cultures cease? According to that source it ceased by the 20th dynasty and could this be due to Egyptian assimilation?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
..Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus...
So is this person suggesting that Zipporah was black because she was a Medjay??
The Bible specifically states that she is Midianite and places her home somewhere in the Sinai.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
...I am not going to try to unravel this politico-military ethnic situation in Nubia which seems to have begun building up during the MK and came to a head during the 13th dynasty.[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?] We do know that KhaneferRe Sobekhotep IV did fight some kind of campaign in Nubia, perhaps against the nearer jwntiw, or even against Kush itself, who were soon to nyam off the lst nome of Upper Egypt. It is interesting that the version which has Moses fighting on the side of the Ethiopians against the Bene Kedem is placed during the time of his exile, while Josephus' version, which has Moses laying waste the Ethiopians, is placed during his earlier Egyptian military career, before his glorious return, his crime, and his flight. One could thus assume that implicit Egyptian support lay behind Balaam's nearly successful attempt to conquer the Kushite kingdom, and that indeed this support was what Balaam [and the wru of Mdjaiu?] had been seeking at Iti Tawi.But Moses had switched sides, now that he was on the lam!...
quote:Hotep vehemently responded: I'm not trying to change the topic just getting the facts in order because the Oriental Institute of Chicago is a RACIST and deceitful organization.
LIE LIE LIE Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe and not native Afrikans the historic writers make it quite clear that Troglodytes who lived in North west Afrika lived in Caves so the word Troglodytes means "CAVE DWELLERS" here is some info on the Troglodytes.
...Historical writers make it known that the Troglodytes live underground in the DAYTIME to escape the HEAT of the SUN and came out at NIGHT. Such behavior is associated with people who are not endowed with the physical attributes to deal with the SUN.
..We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
quote:Then Takruri responded:
Don't let your overconcern with racial polemic invictives deprive you of good learning tools Hotep2u.
In our context the "Troglodytes" were people who mostly mined in the Eastern Desert. They (the YNTYW) enter Nile Valley records under seige.
On the "Palermo" Stone one early ruler whose name is lost has one year of his reign noted as the "Year of Smiting the Troglodytes."
Khufu has it recorded on a Sinai inscription that he's "Khnum-Khufu, Great God, Smiter of the Troglodytes."
The YNTYW habitation was called the highlands. Henu, minister of Mentuhotpe IV, employed them as bodyguards during his Hammamat expedition "the hunters and the children of the highlands were posted as the protection of my limbs."
Mentuhotpe IV himself tells us the YNTYW adored Min, "... Min of Koptos, lord of the highlands, head of the Troglodytes, ..."
Senwosret III named a fort that he had built in Wawat at a site south of Semnah "Repulse-of-the-Troglodyte's." There was even a "Repulse-of -the-Troglodyte's" feast on the 21st of Pharmuthi that was celebrated up to the time of Thutmose III.
That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
* their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
not by a rant against what in your mind is a "racist, deceitful" Oriental Institute of Chicago and "those hotdamn Jews" not even the wonderful Jewish Troglodytes of the Djebels of Libya who have sense enough to stay out of the hot dry desert sun like anybody with a brain would likewise do.
So the question is just WHO ARE THE TROGLODYTES??
From what I've heard, the Troglodytes were people who lived in the Western Deserts somewhere in Libya and were "hunted" by the Garamantes in their two-horsed chariots.
But more recently, in a book I read it also speaks of Troglodytes who lived in the Eastern Deserts.
So my questions:
Were the Troglodytes of the Eastern and Western deserts the same or different peoples, and what relation do those in the Eastern Desert have with the Medjay?? Were they a branch of the Medjay or a different people altogether??...
LOL And what did that author mean by "large negroids"?!! Did he mean that these people were of great stature in the same way old scholars called Pygmies "small negoids"??
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
Djehuti:
quote: So the question is just WHO ARE THE TROGLODYTES??
alTukruri wrote:
quote: Nothing like a Blacks vs Jews war had anything to do with it at all. Serious scholarship has ceased trying to make every A3mw group from the Retenu to the Hyksos to the Haribu into Jews, a people who just weren't in existance at the time and whose forebearers are first noted as landless people called YSR'L on the Merenptah stela 300 years after the Hyksos.
Black people were also included amongst the Jews so of course it couldn't be a Black vs. Jews fight, stop trying to read between the lines and let it go.
LETS MOVE ON
Look Eurocentrics are trapped in RACIST idealogies so they always have to try and misconstrue information to fit their limited scope of intelligence again I will repeat
E.A Budge Egyptian Dictionary Vol.1 page 59b uses the words An-tiu which breaks down as "Eastern Desert Dwellers" from An-tt "Eastern Desert".
Troglodytes are extra mental leaps being added in that interpretation of An-tiu.
Hotep
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I agree with Hotep in that the use of the term Troglodytes is gratuitous in the context of this discussion - especially if one objects to the use of the term Jew, which is similarly gratuitous.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm all for using the indigenous words as much as possible. To that end YNTYW/jwntiw needs the anglo phoneme Antiu, "hillmen," to replace troglodyte, "hole dweller," which like the word nomad refers to living conditions not to ethnicity. Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte, like the former Hole Jews of the Libyan Djebels who have no relation to Herodotus' Aithiopian Troglodytes (c. 450 BCE) of the Western Desert "hunted" by the Garamantes nor Breasted's Troglodytes (c. 2500 BCE) in the Eastern Desert employed by the Kmtyw as miners, bowmen, etc.
I don't object to the term Jew. Its an invalid anachronism to refer to Jews before there was a state of Judah. It's incorrect and imprecise to substitute Jew for Aamu, Retennu, Hyksos, Haribu, and whatnot, as sloppy and enthusiast "scholars" do. Each of the foregoing have their own precise meaning that need to be stuck to if we're to retain any clarity when discussing either of them, that is unless we want to be as intentionally obscurist as we accuse others of being in their blanket usage of the term "Nubia/Nubian."
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte
Nonsense. Anyone anywhere in the world is *not* called that.
Eurocentrists select their interpretations with great predjudice, and bait others into repeating the terms and predjudices that go with it - even when it is done sub-consciously.
If there is one thing this thread makes clear - it's that.
Notice how the Beja can be Nubians or Negros in the context of Troglodite:
Medijay Troglodytes.
But in the context of being great warriors - suddenly they are "Arabs" and portrayed by Europeans:
Medijay Warriors.
Very mischevious indeed.
Hotep's point is well considered.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Antiu is a non-specific ethnonym applicable to people in the highlands or hill country east of the Nile Valley whether in the Sinai, the Eastern Desert, or the Nubian Desert. Medjay were Antiu but were all Antiu Medjay?
Medjay were employed by TaShemau in the wars against the Hyksos whereas other records make Antiu Seti out as enemies of TaShemaw.
Aahmes, a naval officer, served Ahmose I, Amenophis I, and Tuthmosis I, all the first kings of the 18th dynasty. Under Ahmose captain Aahmes
quote: sailed up the river to Khenthennefer to crush the Antiu of Sti,
In Amenophis' southern campaign Aahmes
quote: sailed up the river to Kash to extend towards the south the frontiers of Egypt. His Majesty captured that accursed Anti of Nubia in the midst of his accursed bowmen;
For Tuthmosis he again
quote: sailed up the river to Khent-hen-nefer, to put down the rebellion in Khet land, and to put an end to the incursions of the people of Asemt.
and received the commission "Captain of the Transport." Aahmes reports
quote: His Majesty sailed down the river having all the mountains and deserts in his hand. And that accursed Anti of Nubia was hung up head downwards, at the prow of the boat of His Majesty,
Unlike those Medjay Antiu in the TaShemau army these "Sti" Antiu were the ones Kamose complained about when contemplating the three way power split Kmty government between himelf, Kesh, and the Hyksos.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Troglodyte is from the Greek Trōglodutai, trōglē, hole, + dutai, burrower), and was employed as such by Herodotus in describing a people in the vicinity of the Garamantes. Since no one of that time new anything about prehistoric cavemen our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances. Miners are certainly hole burrowers.
Troglodytes can be anyone anywhere in the world and have been called so. Strabo's Troglodytes were south of the Danube (today's southern Germany, Austria, Hungary) and in the Caucasus (Russia, Georgia).
If the miners in the Sinai (mostly A3mw, possibly the Horites -- hole dwellers -- in Hebrew texts) and the Eastern Desert (Antiu) built their homes directly into the hills around them instead of erecting their housing then they were troglodytes. The rock cut churches of Lalibela in Abyssinia is an example of troglodyte architecture being hewn out of the living rock. Nothing primitive or cavemanish about it rather one of the highest form of monolithic work known to man (along with Khmer's Angkor architecture by an eastern Aithiop people).
Breasted's use of Troglodyte for the people between the Nile and the Red Sea is not pejorative. He's following the Greek usage. The Greek texts use Trōglodutai for them and Plutarch notes Cleopatra's knowledge of Troglodyte language.
Anyway as I wrote before, and it seems to have been missed so I repeat it here, I agree with Hotep2u's suggested use of Antiu instead of troglodytes for Eastern Desert/Nubian Desert folk because that's the word in the R3n Mdw and using it overturns mental colonization. However, that "Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe" is an erroneous assumption without support from primary documents, and what he further wrote confuses different times, places, and peoples.
But if the goal is to rap "whitey" instead of to learn about the Medjay and the Antiu then I mean go ahead what the heck. But me, as regards Medjay/Antiu, I'm about * their historic mentions * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc. Learning this will positively displace Eurocentric falseheads without negatively resorting to rage venting polemics that don't teach a thing about Medjay/Antiu, classic African civilizations, or Africana in general at all.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte
Anyone anywhere in the world is not called that though. Eurocentrists select their interpretations with great predjudice, and bait others into repeating the terms and predjudices that go with it - even when it is done sub-consciously.
Hotep's point is well considered.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Lalibela "troglodytes"; I must admit that, that one sounds a tad funny to me.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Is Lalibela a case of burrowing hole into rock?
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
I repeat, in case it was missed the first time:
Lalibela "troglodytes"; I must admit that, that one sounds a tad funny to me. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
And I repeat in case it was missed Is Lalibela a case of burrowing hole into rock?
The troglodyte or Hole Jews of Libya had entire underground villages. There's much more to troglodyte than the devolved simplistic popular image of primitive ugh ugh cavemen that modern connotations give the word.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Repeating redundant questions doesn't have a damn bearing on my comment. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Repeating redundant comments doesn't have a damn bearing on the ancients' or Breasted's usage of troglodyte Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Repeating redundant comments
...like this one of yours; I agree.
quote:alTakruri: doesn't have a damn bearing on the ancients' or Breasted's usage of troglodyte :!:
Who suggested otherwise?
Ps - Where can I find an ancient source referring to Lalibelans as "troglodytes"?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Where can I find an ancient source of Lalibelans, never heard that word before. And don't redundantly repeat what you already wrote.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Repeating redundant comments
...like this one of yours; I agree.
quote:alTakruri: doesn't have a damn bearing on the ancients' or Breasted's usage of troglodyte :!:
Who suggested otherwise?
Ps - Where can I find an ancient source referring to Lalibelans as "troglodytes"?
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Where can I find an ancient source of Lalibelans, never heard that word before.
Okay, let me put it this way, in a way you can understand:
Where can I find an ancient source that refers to the people of Lalibela as "troglodytes"?
quote:alTakruri:
And don't redundantly repeat what you already wrote.
Since, you've been the one who has been parroting my words to this point, but just incorporating a few new words, don't worry...I'll leave the art of redundant repetition to you.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Your mastery of redundancy is exhibited at the start of this exchange, thanks for teaching me so well. Baiting commentary aside, at level suited to your understanding, go do some research. There are no Lalibelans or people of Lalibela. Lalibela is the king responsible for the troglodyte architecture at Roha in Ethiopia. But since you're so much more intelligent than me I expect you can at least Google lalibela AND troglodyte and educate yourself on the application of the latter to the former.
Peace out!
Reserving my time for productivity, i.e., researching the thread's subject instead of inane chatter prompted by ridicule of my associating Lalibela and troglodyte in the hopeless attempt of imparting other than its popular connotation which I'm sure has been gathered by those who can follow me without contempt in mind.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Your mastery of redundancy is exhibited at the start of this exchange,
You parrot other people's comments and repeatedly ask a question that has no bearing on the said comment, and here you are, accusing me of redundancy. Interesting.
quote:alTakruri:
Baiting commentary aside,
Hey, more power to you, if you took my comment as a "bait", in which case, you have fallen for a "bait", and hence, making you a guilty party.
quote:alTakruri:
at level suited to your understanding, go do some research...
Lalibela is the king responsible for the troglodyte architecture at Roha in Ethiopia. But since you're so much more intelligent than me I expect you can at least Google lalibela AND troglodyte and educate yourself on the application of the latter to the former.
You make a claim, and you are asked to provide some 'substantiation' on the said claim, but somehow other folks have to do that job for you?! Wow.
quote:alTakruri:
There are no Lalibelans or people of Lalibela.
Whatever helps; if it makes your comprehension of what I am getting at any better, so be it:
Where can I find an ancient source that refers to the people of "Roha", or else, any Ethiopian associated with the Lalibela architecture as "troglodytes"?
quote:alTakruri:
Reserving my time for productivity, i.e., researching the thread's subject instead of inane chatter prompted by ridicule of my associating Lalibela and troglodyte in the hopeless attempt of imparting other than its popular connotation which I'm sure has been gathered by those who can follow me without contempt in mind.
How you perceive a comment that has no bearing on your follow up comments, is a problem that belongs you. That you see nothing wrong with calling folks "troglodytes", whom the Kemetians never referred to as a such, is something that you are of course entitled to, on a personal level; just don't expect others to buy into that logic!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle only designed to ridicule what one mind can't grasp, Lalibela's rock cut churches at Roha are fine representation of troglodyte architecture.
Now if anybody other than Supercar doesn't understand that, then I'll be happy to explain to them how an architectural style differs from the mode of living of a people. The Abyssinians employing troglodyte architecture no more makes them troglodytes than Americans pitching tents makes them nomads. Labeling Abyssinians troglodytes appears no where in my posts and is a weak attempt to substantiate ridicule by putting words in my mouth that never issued from my mouth by someone who has nothing on topic to contribute to this thread's subject matter, "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley."
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
Funny, because that is precisely what I intended to do about the mentioned inane prattles of yours.
quote:alTakruri:
only designed to ridicule what one mind can't grasp, Lalibela's rock cut churches at Roha are fine representation of troglodyte architecture.
What your mind doesn't grasp is that, the cheap attempt to use the Lalibela structures to justify your casual repetition of someone's usage of "Troglodytes" on some ancient African group, isn't lost on any perceptive observer.
quote:alTakruri:
Now if anybody other than Supercar doesn't understand that, then I'll be happy to explain to them how an architectural style differs from the mode of living of a people.
Interesting. So an isolated crude cave dweller can be called a "troglodyte", and someone who happens to live or use a rather more sophisticated, and possibly more impressive structure carved out of a huge rock could also be referred to as such, to the extent that nothing really delineates the former from the latter, by this simplistic reference to the term.
quote:alTakruri:
The Abyssinians employing troglodyte architecture no more makes them troglodytes than Americans pitching tents makes them nomads.
...hmmm, and yet, your bringing the Abyssinians into this in the first place, seems to be somehow meant to provide a justification of your reference to an ancient African group as "troglodytes".
quote:alTakruri:
Labeling Abyssinians troglodytes appears no where in my posts and is a weak attempt to substantiate ridicule by putting words in my mouth that never issued from my mouth
...why not call those Abyssinians troglodytes, as they would be supposedly named after a "style" or method of building/producing architecture, if your logic is anything to go by? Besides, again, isn't that the whole purpose of bringing them up in the first place? No one need to put anything in your mouth, when your own actions or postings make the implications pretty obvious.
quote:alTakruri:
by someone who has nothing on topic to contribute to this thread's subject matter, "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley."
As someone who apparently hasn't been following the posts in a topic started by himself, I suggest you take another peek at my postings herein. In fact, exposing the erroneous nature of someone's rather casual and unjustified reference/term imposed on an ancient group, is in itself a significant contribution to the discussion at hand. Naturally, the culprit of the error in question will feel different about the value of this contribution. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:SuperCar writes: the cheap attempt to use the Lalibela structures to justify your casual repetition of someone's usage of "Troglodytes" on some ancient African group, isn't lost on any perceptive observer.
^ Well said.
quote:AlTakruri writes: our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances.
I'm sorry, but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
You are trying to justify MODERN, selective, prejoritive and non-native use of the term, by Europeans.
Moreover, as Supercar rightly noted: you are repeating after it yourself - not merely quoting Greeks. So the issue here is your use of the word.
Is the term of the mdw ntr? No.
Is the term of Beja origin? No.
Therefore you have no defense, only rationalisations.
From past conversation, I know that, in spite of your intelligence and literacy, when you stop making sense, as you sometimes do, you quickly burrow yourself in deeper and it gets worse and worse.
Perhaps then, you regard YOURSELF as a TROGLODYTE: 1. A prehistoric race of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes.
2. A person considered to be reclusive, reactionary, out of date, or brutish.
3. An anthropoid ape, such as a gorilla or chimpanzee.
If not, if that *in any way* offends you - then you certainly get the point.
Or...you can drag this conversation on, by pretending it is not offensive, which would merely make you appear a desparate fibber, and a very unconvincing one at that. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
^ You've succeeded reducing your at one time civil and informative thread to just that. So I'm ending my contributions to it. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
It may make no sense to you and that's fine by me.
The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
As usual when it comes to disagreement you resort to talking about me instead of the subject matter at hand. What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes, it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture. If you want to take it out of context and make something else of it instead of researching the term its no reflection on me. Europeans do use the word in reference to current places in Europe not just Africa.
There is a larger world of learning outside the nature of a debate club. Go do the research! Just because you want to limit the word is no reason for others to have your limitation forced onto them, closing off their minds to learning something new, just as Hotep2u taught me something new. Expand your mind.
But since so many of our people still don't accept the word of one of their own but recognize something as valid only if "Simon" says, then hear it from Simon.
Troglodyte communities down the centuries have created a little-known form of architecture that demonstrates exceptional versatility and resourcefulness
Hewn from the living rock
Troglodytism belongs to a very ancient and widespread tradition which still continues to be practised. There are more than 40 million troglodytes in China today. In Tunisia, ancient dwellings hewn vertically out of the rock have been transformed into attractive hotel complexes. Remarkable examples of cave-dwelling communities still exist in Spain, Italy and France. In the Saumur region of France, near the river Loire, many cave dwellers enjoy the same amenities as householders who live above ground. At the same time many troglodytic sites have been abandoned, many are deteriorating and will soon be beyond repair, and others have disappeared entirely, even if some are being renovated thanks to tourism. Is troglodytism merely a survival from a bygone age which will one day be forgotten?
Sanctuaries and refuges
The tomb-temples of Petra in Jordan, the Buddhist temple-monasteries of Ajanta and Ellora in India, the burial vaults of Lycia and the rock churches and hermitages of Cappadocia in Turkey are outstanding examples of troglodytic sanctuaries. Some of them, such as the rock churches of Lalibela in Ethiopia, are still used for worship. These forms of sacred architecture hewn from the living rock are highly sophisticated. Carving a sanctuary from the block, like sculpture, allows no room for error.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances.
I'm sorry, but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
You are trying to justify MODERN, selective, prejoritive and non-native use of the term, by Europeans.
And, you are using it...now, independant of any authentic reference.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
No I think Supercar did that, the same as you two did after disagreeing on the Qustul censor where you each escalated the lack of civil discourse and information because one or the other of you had to win a debate instead or admitting there's supportive evidence to backup both of your differing opinions and letting it go at that.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
^ You've succeeded reducing your at one time civil and informative thread to just that. So I'm ending my contributions to it.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:alTakruri:
The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
If you agreed that the Kemetian reference was "at least" the appropriate way to refer to Medjay or related folks in the ancient context, then why are you trying so desperately hard to justify the term [troglodyte] imposed on them?
quote:alTakruri:
What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes,…
As far as you are concerned, correcting your obvious erroneous positions, is also an attack on you. So then, the Abyssinians weren’t seized upon, to justify your defense for calling the ancient Nile Group “troglodytes”, huh?
quote:alTakruri:
it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
Fabrication eh? Where is that source in Mdu Ntr, which refers to the “Medjay” or related group as troglodytes, or such ancient reference by the said group themselves? Unless, you can provide that source, you are imposing this term on these ancients, and well, the rest should be pretty forward, I hope.
quote:alTakruri:
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture.
…and hence, why not just call the folks associated with these Lalibela structures as “troglodytes”?!
quote:alTakruri:
No I think Supercar did that,
….in trying to get you to realize the straw base of your effort at defending the immaterial usage of “troglodyte” on an ancient Nile Valley group?…That, I am certainly guilty of. The prattle thereafter, however, should certainly be credited to you.
quote:alTakruri:
the same as you two did after disagreeing on the Qustul censor where you each escalated the lack of civil discourse and information because one or the other of you had to win a debate instead or admitting there's supportive evidence to backup both of your differing opinions and letting it go at that.
^^Red herring and tansparently crude distractive flame-instigation antics designed to deflect attention from your engagement in the very actions that you are attempting to accuse others of in the above. But FYI, in that discourse, there was no disagreement or agreement on an opinion on my end, which would have been clear to anyone who carefully read the thread. On that note, feel free to proceed with more distractive antics, as you just did.
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
PLEASE LET US STOP THE TROGLODYTE arguing, because it is just unproductive to this very important topic. I am not for promoting anti-semitism by calling children of Israel or followers of Judaism any names so let us just let go the distraction that I created due to the fact that I realized J.Breast was wrong for claiming Troglodytes for Antiu.
True the arguing is pointless. It's idiotic to imagine that GrecoRoman authors had a 20th century western meaning for a word they simply used to describe habitation and equally applied to Europeans, Asians, and Africans. All the primary documentation written in Greek and Latin has the word Trōglodutai in it nonpejorative original etymological sense, even Heliodorus in his Æthiopica.
Nor is it anti-Semitic to use the term "Jewish Troglodytes" for the Hole Dwelling Jews of the Libyan Djebels as did the Jewish authors Sidney Mendelssohn and Nahoum Slouschz among others.
The builders of the Lalibela troglodytic architecture cannot be described as troglodytes because they didn't live in houses carved into the living rock. They made those rock cut churches only, and they remain an engineering marvel to all, inspiring admiration not insult.
This pejorative connotation is quite modern and could not exist before the 1908 discovery of neanderthal man and the Field Museum's brutish 1920's reconstruction of him entered popular culture and Hobbes infamous phrase "nasty, brutish, and short" was applied to fossil man.
Breasted writing in 1906 is using the word found in the primary documents of classical literature he is not passing a cultural judgement that was unknown to him.
And thank you again for introducing me to the Kmtyw term Antiu and providing us with the repro of the original mdw ntr of Breasted's Ancient Records of Egypt Vol I §311 translation
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
PLEASE LET US STOP THE TROGLODYTE arguing, because it is just unproductive to this very important topic. I am not for promoting anti-semitism by calling children of Israel or followers of Judaism any names so let us just let go the distraction that I created due to the fact that I realized J.Breast was wrong for claiming Troglodytes for Antiu.
It is idiotic to assume that the "Antui" could be called "troglodytes" at will by much later imposition of the term, when no primary source from the ancient folks of the Nile Valley referring to the aforementioned group as such has been provided or exists. It is just as idiotic to assume that the later imposition of the term, should not be intepreted in the contexts that the term is generally known for.
I suppose those priests who spend most of their time in the Lalibela structures, could be called troglodytes.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I hope this blank space you're reserving will be filled with something on Medjay/Antiu
* historic mentions * archaeological notices * locations they occupied * economy * military exploits * relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * migration patterns * etc.
though I seriously doubt you are able to contribute anything along those lines.
quote:Originally posted by :
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You've been shown that neither Breasted nor his primary GrecoLatin texts could possibly use the term in the meaning it's only acquired since the mid 20th century.
To get back to the topic, can you contribute something on Medjay/Antiu
* historic mentions * archaeological notices * locations they occupied * economy * military exploits * relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * migration patterns * etc.
as all the other posters to this thread have done?
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: It is idiotic to assume that the "Antui" could be called "troglodytes" at will by much latter imposition of the term, when no primary source from the ancient folks of the Nile Valley referring to the aforementioned group as such has been provided or exists. It is just as idiotic to assume that the latter imposition of the term, should not be intepreted in the contexts that the term is generally known for.
I suppose those priests who spend most of their time in the Lalibela structures, could be called troglodytes.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
I hope you'll stay in tune with the times, and see that the blank space no longer exists, as most of us "alert" readers are by now aware of.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You've been shown that neither Breasted nor his primary GrecoLatin texts could possibly use the term in the meaning it's only acquired since the mid 20th century.
More importantly, than the non-sequitur need for me to justify Breasted's use of the term, where is the primary source from the ancients of the Nile Valley with reference to the "Antui" in such a term?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Please let's not argue guys.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
It may make no sense to you and that's fine by me.
The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
As usual when it comes to disagreement you resort to talking about me instead of the subject matter at hand. What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes, it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture. If you want to take it out of context and make something else of it instead of researching the term its no reflection on me. Europeans do use the word in reference to current places in Europe not just Africa.
There is a larger world of learning outside the nature of a debate club. Go do the research! Just because you want to limit the word is no reason for others to have your limitation forced onto them, closing off their minds to learning something new, just as Hotep2u taught me something new. Expand your mind.
But since so many of our people still don't accept the word of one of their own but recognize something as valid only if "Simon" says, then hear it from Simon.
Troglodyte communities down the centuries have created a little-known form of architecture that demonstrates exceptional versatility and resourcefulness
Hewn from the living rock
Troglodytism belongs to a very ancient and widespread tradition which still continues to be practised. There are more than 40 million troglodytes in China today. In Tunisia, ancient dwellings hewn vertically out of the rock have been transformed into attractive hotel complexes. Remarkable examples of cave-dwelling communities still exist in Spain, Italy and France. In the Saumur region of France, near the river Loire, many cave dwellers enjoy the same amenities as householders who live above ground. At the same time many troglodytic sites have been abandoned, many are deteriorating and will soon be beyond repair, and others have disappeared entirely, even if some are being renovated thanks to tourism. Is troglodytism merely a survival from a bygone age which will one day be forgotten?
Sanctuaries and refuges
The tomb-temples of Petra in Jordan, the Buddhist temple-monasteries of Ajanta and Ellora in India, the burial vaults of Lycia and the rock churches and hermitages of Cappadocia in Turkey are outstanding examples of troglodytic sanctuaries. Some of them, such as the rock churches of Lalibela in Ethiopia, are still used for worship. These forms of sacred architecture hewn from the living rock are highly sophisticated. Carving a sanctuary from the block, like sculpture, allows no room for error.
If by 'Troglodyte' one means cave-dwellers, then yes there were 'Troglodytes' all over the world including the indigenous people of Taiwan to even an isolated people in the Philippines and Indonesia.
But still, what is the difference between the Troglodytes of the Western Desert and those of the Eastern??
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
"Troglodytes"...just nonsensical. It is just as ridiculous as the notion of placing indigenous Africans into the context of "caucasoid" and "negroid" races, so as to implicate a divide that has no objective biological reality, yet, one insists on utilizing it for meeting political ends. This is no trivial matter, and shall be seriously dealt with, as in any other case of deceitfulness.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^How is it nonsensical? Troglodytes does not imply anything 'racial' does it? It only describes a mode of living (in caves).
But again, what is the difference between Troglodytes of Libya and those of the Eastern desert?
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^How is it nonsensical? Troglodytes does not imply anything 'racial' does it? It only describes a mode of living (in caves).
Since when does something have to be "racial", to be considered a nonsense? I must admit that this question is puzzling, as to what mindset would ask it, considering the exchanges made about the term. Have you not been following those exchanges? Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The latter included some A3mw (and others mining in the Sinai) as well as the Antiu to the east of the Lower and Middle Nile Valleys. By Greco-Roman times Trogodytis or Trogodytarum were the lands adjoining the Red Sea. Today's Bedja are probably their descendents.
The former were southern neighbors of the Garamantes. They weren't, as you put it, in the Western Desert, they were in the Tibesti massif. The Tibbu/Teda may be their living descendents.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But still, what is the difference between the Troglodytes of the Western Desert and those of the Eastern??
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The problem with this letter is that it unsuccesfully tries to mesh the Jewish Midrash with history. At one and the same time it relies on the Midrash while bashing the very pieces used as evidence. Plus it's overall an enthusiasts' essay already determined to find its premised question vindicated, regardless of factual data be it pro or con.
The valid part of the premise arises out of 1). - post biblical non-Hebrew texts which have the same spelling for Medjay and Madiei 2). - taking Procopius' Maddeni for Midian.
quote: Although the ancients were aware of the movement of peoples like the Habeshan (Beshmat) and Sabaeans from the Arabian peninsula to the Horn a few centuries before the Christian era (a movement fairly well documented by archaeologists), it is clear from the ancient writings on the "Arabs" that the peoples of the Arabian peninsula and the non- immigrant, indigenous nomads of the Horn were considered ethnically one and the same and thought to have originated in areas near the cataracts of the Nile. Troglodytes (Bedja) were said to live on both sides of the Red Sea.
Several southern Arabian peoples like the Himyarites of Yemen who are sometimes referred to as Ethiopians and the Maddenioi or Madiei of the Hejaz Asir were considered Saracens by Procopius. Such people had strong commercial ties with Africa through the Red Sea trade. It is hard to imagine that the people on the Arabian coast on the eastern side of the Red Sea called in ancient inscriptions Madiei were not in some way related to those men called in ancient times Madjai or Madjayu (the Egyptologists' rendering of the name) on the western or African side of the Red Sea. The Medjayu are mentioned before 2000 B.C. and appear as late as Roman times in Egyptian texts as truculent desert nomads. They are presently considered to be ancestral to modern Bedja or Cushites. The latter (Madjai) carried on a great caravan trade with Egypt as late as the days of the Romans and the former (Madiei) were considered incense traders.
Dana Reynolds The African Heritage & Ethnohistory of the Moors: Background to the emergence of early Berber and Arab peoples, from prehistory to the Islamic dynasties in Ivan Van Sertima (ed) Golden Age of the Moors Piscataway: Transaction Publishers, 1992
It's totally unnecessary to make Medjay out of the Midianites to support SSipporah's blackness, the Tanakh itself poetically groups Midian both with Sheba and with Kushan.
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@xxxxxxx.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection ...
Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus.
...
So is this person suggesting that Zipporah was black because she was a Medjay??
The Bible specifically states that she is Midianite and places her home somewhere in the Sinai.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Bump for AswaniAswad
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I can understand how TeBadawi{TaMedjay} are considered mecenaries and warriors they still elaborate this Warrior Dance which is ancient. Beja are still known as Warriors threwout Sudan,Egypt,Eritrea,Ethiopia.
Himyarites and Midian or Medjay do u have any more information about that takruri TaBedawi Medjay being on both sides of the red sea this might explain the reason why All Beja speak Tigre as well and might explain the reason why the Beja call Tigre Madian.
Didnt the egyptians say that set dwelled in the desert east or west of the nile i know amenta was considered south right. Is there any references to gods being assocatied with those who dwelled east of the nile in ancient kmt
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Am I stretching it too much if I say Bedjayu>Bedu>Bedouin who roam the desserts of the Sinai and Arabia proper? or there is absolutely no connection.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
The Beja are also known in Egypt as the Ababda. Most of the Ababda are Arabized Beja tribes.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Ausar please watch this Origins of Ababda in arabic please
Ababda and Bisharin the only Beja Tribes who dwell in Egypt speak arabic but are still Beja and part of the Beja Confederation. Ababda explain there recent arab lineage which in no way limits there bejaness
There is no connection because the arabian desert is just and extention of the African desert and living like a socalled Bedouin is not foriegn to Northeast Africans but is actually a livelyhood that predates bedoui of arabia.
These people come from many areas of "Upper Egypt" including Kom Ombo, Karm-El-Deeb, Qena, Nag-El-Ababda etc. And most likely various areas in Sudan.
Ababda came into northern Egypt to dig the Suez Canal and settled in Ismailia. The Ababda and other Se3edees that came to the North brought much with them including Simsimeya Music which is similar to the Ababda and Beja style.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Ok, I was just wondering because the names seems similar,but Bedouin is actually a mode of living not an ethnic group?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What a coincidence. Just yesterday I was reading a piece by an Italian Egyptologist who mentioned Yntyw first being applied to south Levantines before Eastern Desert populations.
(The word Aamu by the way was also applied to the Medjayu tribes in Africa according to Egyptologists.)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The earliest recorded inhabitants of the Sinai were a people called Monitu by the Egyptians. The region in general was known as Ta Mafkat or Land of Torqoise which was the stone commonly mined there. Unfortunately this is the only thing I know about the early Sinai people and I'm desperate to learn more. I believe such people may be the key in bridging the ethno-history of Egypt and the Levant.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've seen that spelled Myntyw. When applied specifically to Levantines spelled Ymw Myntyw on a Karnak relief of Seti I. Haven't seen the Mdw Ntjr so don't know if the y in Ymw could also be an a making the word into Amw.
Posted by Kamillion (Member # 11484) on :
^ Check your mail please. Thanks.
Posted by myth buster (Member # 15897) on :
Hyksos are a myth There were multiple different groups who
Egyptians had conflicts with in less than a dozen hieroglypic references All of those identified are identified by different hieroglyphic words.
If any one finds some actual hieroglyphs that * call any enemy hyksos * call any enemy kings/rulers * state any enemy ever ruled Egypt, let me know in this forum or by private e-mail
(culled from April, 2005) It's funny how these Sunday School Bible Topics keep poppin up , but anyway...
quote: The Asiatics; called the Amu, Seteyu, Hek Khasu (Manetho's Hyksos), came into Egypt as prisoners or as indentured servants because Egypt offered them opportunities. As their numbers increased they began to insinuate themselves into various positions of power. Ipuwer's complaints about the presence of the Red Ones in Egypt provides a cunning image of the changes taking place. The Red People, the coarse nomads, consolidated their gains and opened Egypt to more and more migrations from the Mediterranean region.
--The Hek Khasu ( "foreign kings/rulers" nee Hyksos) never gained control of the entire country; only the Delta.
--A list of the HekKhasu -can be found at the end of Budge's dictionary. Does everyone know which dynasty to start looking in?
--The Hebrews role in history, because of the Bible, has been greatly exaggerated and/or overated...
--- Oh yeah, also for the Biblically inclined:
Pharaoh named Joseph, his friend, "Za-ef nath pa Aniah" which I read as "His son who becomes the Anu" and I interpret as Joseph being made an honorary or adopted Anu...even given an Anu lady to wed...
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[Royal Annals Stone record of Den's x+2 year]