posted
Hotep2u is providing us an opportunity to widen our Nile Valley studies by inadvertantly introducing the the Pan Grave era Medjay. The Medjay resided east of the Nile Valley for the most part. Overtime their residency spans the area east of the southern Lower Nile Valley and the Middle Nile Valley between the Eastern Desert and the Nubian Desert.
Known as mercenaries since Old Kingdom times, its small wonder that they took up Kemtyw employment when more soldiery was needed to oust the Hyksos.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
Here we show some DNA evidence showing a DIFFERENCE between Kerma and Kush notably the Gurna People. This should explain why Kerma sided with the hyksos and Kush sided with Kemet.
Here is a very good study done on the area called Nubia.
quote: Granted that there were several settlements in the region in the pre-Kerma periods, are you saying that the populations who resided at Kerma and Kush, were different folks, i.e., no continuity observed?
This is a good question, I think that at some point within 2500 B.C to 2000 B.C Kerma area was abondoned and later got inhabitted by a foreign group that eventually sided with the Hyksos upon their invasion. Though Kush might have had strong ties with Kemet and showed continuity thus they sided with Kemet in order to remove the Hyksos. The puzzle here is that Kerma sided with the Hyksos which implies that they felt that Kemet did NOT hold their best interest. Though Kush sided with Kemet showing they were very loyal to Kemet, the question then is why did Kush support Kemet and Kerma support the Hyksos? The war that led to the expulsion of the Hyksos proves that a difference between Kerma and Kush existed in my opinion.
Hotep
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I dont see your point. It seems as if you may be saying that they sided with the Hyksos because of a common heritage or ancestry? Of course not. The paper only states the obvious, that people in upper Egypt and Northern Sudan are related to the other populations around them and that the MOST ancient lineages came from Ethiopia, with modern populations having substantial influxes from the Near East. Nothing dramatically new or different about this. The point is that this study still cannot give us a n accurate picture of populations in the same area 5,000 years ago, since modern population samples may be "biased" due to recent migrations.
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Thanks for stating these obvious points Rasol, Hotep2u may have overlooked or submerged them. On one issue I differ. Rather than allies, I suspect the Medjay were only in it for the money. KM.t probably offered more exchange currencies and benefits than did Kesh.
To all: thanks for your contributions! This thread was started to delve into the more or less desert dwelling seminomadic Medjay/Beja of pre-525BCE to amass a body of info such as we recently did for the riverine Nehhesyw.
Anybody got anything on * their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
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Photo is from the book The Horizon: History of Africa, American Heritage Publishing Co, 1971, p. 92.
The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
The repertoire of grave goods associated with the Pan Grave culture is limited, but does include certain types of jewelry, such as two-stranded necklaces. These consist of faience disk beads threaded onto an upper and lower string, the strings themselves connected by a series of rectangular plaques, to the lower strand of which were attached rudimentarily formed pendants of ostrich eggshell and mother-of-pearl. These Nubians also appear to have favored earrings, worn in a pierced lobe and crafted of either silver or copper wire formed into hoops with overlapping ends or twisted in numerous spirals. It has been cogently suggested that the ancient Egyptian custom of wearing ear ornaments for the first time in their history during the Second Intermediate Period is due to their adoption of this Nubian practice, which during the course of the New Kingdom became an ancient Egyptian unisex fashion. That the Medjay are desert-Nubians is certain. Their presence has been detected in Old Kingdom contexts, but the Medjay are more frequently encountered as a distinct group during the Middle Kingdom when their designation, Medjay, appears among the named Egyptian foes in the Execration Texts of the Middle Kingdom. On the other hand, the Medjay like the Nubians of the C-Group culture interacted favorably with the Egyptians. In the case of the Medjay, they appear to be reliable allies and formed, therefore, part of the Egyptian army under Kamose in his campaigns against the Hyksos. Some have suggested that a Medjay contingent may have played a primary role in Kamose's interception of the Hyksos embassy en route to Nubia. Members of the Medjay community continued to be of service to the Egyptians of the New Kingdom, during which time they served in Egypt as the equivalent of policemen. They continued to serve in this capacity well into the reign of pharaoh Rameses IV (about 1152-1144 B.C.E.), during which time they accompanied an expedition into the Wadi Hammamat.
Reference:
Daily Life of the Nubians, Robert Steven Bianchi, 2004, pp. 102-103
About the Pan Grave culture, I'll do some digging around in the university archive for information.
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quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
On Monday Feb 8 Tom Simms wrote [lst line is quote from me]:
>>Hudi appears to place this particular region in Medjaiu territory... > > From the beginning of the 18th dynasty Medjay were used routinelyv> for police in Egypt. They had no family connections hence were > seen as more trustworthy and hard to bribe.
Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of the Ptolemaic era, were talking about. Chenephres is not the only 13th dynasty king to appear in their tales -- they also identify Tutimaios as the Pharoah who drowned in the Red Sea--- one of the last of the 13th dynasty rulers.
A. Spalinger, writing on Sobekhotep IV in the LdA confirms several details in which the inscriptions match the info provided by Artapanus about Chenephres: 1) his upper Egyptian origin: Artap. called him king of Upper Egypt.[JE] 2) Artapanus states Egypt was divided into several kingdoms at the time of Chenephres, which suggests the kings of the 13th dyn coexisting with kinglets at Kois [the 14th dyn] or "a small Hyksos domain in the NE Delta". [I would say Nehesi the E. Delta kinglet, who might have been washed up and left behind by the Ethiopian invasion in the time of Moses, which was said to have reached the sea.]. Most importantly, 3) "Artapanus also reveals that king Chenphres undertook a campaign against an invasion from Nubia, an account that is confirmed from a contemporary inscription of S. IV." To which I might add my own point: 4) Spalinger shows Sobek IV's wife as Th3n. Josephus calls her Thermouthis. If we add a feminine -t to this name, Th-r-n-t, and allow for the common OK & MK m/n Schwankung, we almost have Th-r-m-th[-is=Grk suffix].
The Papyrus Bulaq describes the visit to the royal court in the time of a King Sobekhotep of a delegation of the Madjaiu. See Scharff in ZAS 57,1922. They are given food and whatever they personally need by "scribe of the vizier", who lists 2 great ones [wrw] of the Madjaiu,a servant, a "small Madjai" [i.e. not an important personage?], and three wives of officials. "These mentioned are so to speak the staff of the delegation, while their leader, who has the foreign name 3?ushpkuwi [?], only arrives 10 days later." Again my termite-eaten old notes, but this is clearly a diplomatic mission of some kind. Much debate has gone on about which Sobekhotep this Papyrus is to be dated to, and now, acc to LdA,the consensus is Sobekhotep II. We only have 3 attested regnal years for him. However, with such short reigns as these, it hardly matters which king. Political situations like impending invasions from Nubia obviously could span several mini reigns.
The point is that the Madjaiu seem always to have been more aligned with Egypt than the other Nubian forces. [Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!] That Moses might have sheltered amongst them in the Eastern or Nubian desert is not unthinkable. Jethro is uncomfortable with the fact that Moses is in flight from the authorities and throws him into a dungeon. In one version he thinks to turn him over to the Egyptians, in another, to the Ethiopians. This is what one would expect of the political situation of the Madjaiu, caught between one great power and another, trying to preserve their own independence and way of life in the desert in the process, lending their military and intelligence skills to their more powerful neighbor to avoid being swallowed by the expanding Kushites.
Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus.
Now the Medjaiu, if they are identified, as has often been done, with the warrior/ mercenaries buried in the Pan Graves, would seem to qualify as Children of the East. The Pan Graves in Lower Nubia are almost always on the Eastern desert fringe of cemeteries,where the C Group tumuli are further toward the Nile.The PG folks are generally thought to have inhabited the E desert and have been at times associated with the modern Bedja. The latter have also been connected to the Medja and to the Blemmyes, and some have connected this name to Balaam! [Interesting that in 1922 Sharff transcribes the Medjaiu as "the Matoi", for the Old Nubian word for East was matto, matt-okki/Easterners in modern Mahas.Coincidental connections]. The Medjaiu had been around since the 6th dynasty era when the Heqa Kh3su of Nubia supplied manpower for Egyptian blitzkriegs in the Levant led by General Uni.(Yes the various rulers of Nubia at that time were called Hyksos too, and when the posterity of their armies became military ruling castes in Canaan in the MBI & II, the Egyptians still called them that! Shepherd kings, rulers of nomadic or non-urbanized ethnic groups... )
I am not going to try to unravel this politico-military ethnic situation in Nubia which seems to have begun building up during the MK and came to a head during the 13th dynasty.[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?] We do know that KhaneferRe Sobekhotep IV did fight some kind of campaign in Nubia, perhaps against the nearer jwntiw, or even against Kush itself, who were soon to nyam off the lst nome of Upper Egypt. It is interesting that the version which has Moses fighting on the side of the Ethiopians against the Bene Kedem is placed during the time of his exile, while Josephus' version, which has Moses laying waste the Ethiopians, is placed during his earlier Egyptian military career, before his glorious return, his crime, and his flight. One could thus assume that implicit Egyptian support lay behind Balaam's nearly successful attempt to conquer the Kushite kingdom, and that indeed this support was what Balaam [and the wru of Mdjaiu?] had been seeking at Iti Tawi.But Moses had switched sides, now that he was on the lam!
Whatever you make of all of these "fairy tales", the real historial role of the Madjaiu goes way beyond the fact that individual Madjaiu may have emigrated to Egypt and were employed as police, something which they had been doing since at least the 5th dynasty.
Later, much later, when the last 17th dynasty ruler Kamose is struggling against the Hyksos in the Cusae region we find that Medjaiu are used as troops.[Grimal, p 191:"Kamose marched his Medjay troops north to Nefrusy"- as if they were his whole army!] At that time Kamose intercepts a Hyksos letter being sent by way of the western oases to the Kerma Kushites, who have been friendly with the Hyksos, inviting them to help them fight against Egypt. The Theban ruler claims he is hemmed in by A3mw in the North and Nehesu in the South. When the Hyksos have finally been defeated and expelled by Ahmose of the 18th, the next order on the agenda is a drive south against the Kerma Kushites. I am not clear if the Medjaiu also took part in this campaign, but it would seem likely that at least the ones already serving in Egypt did. So in the line up Kush+A3mw vs Kemt + Madjaiu, we find the latter playing a key role in the global politics of the region, on the opposite side of the fence as Kush -- a situation reflected in the legends.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Since King Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom.
This fragment of relief comes from the tomb of one of the wives of King Mentuhotep II at Deir el-Bahri. It shows the queen with distinctly Nubian facial features and a close-cropped, curled hairstyle. We can assume that the royal house of the early Middle Kingdom, residing at Thebes, had close connections with Nubia.
Photo and text from the book Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, 1997, p. 81
The majority of the scenes in the chapel take their inspiration from the Book of The Dead, but the artist has nevertheless managed to express a certain degree of originality in their details. The sequence of scenes unfolds according to a logical order: the funeral and the scenes on earth which follow the death, lead to the door of the burial chamber. From then, unfold the scenes showing the life of the deceased in the Amenti, at the border of which Amenemonet is greeted by King Mentuhotep and Queen Neferys. Scenes of worship to Amun, Horus, Maat and other deities, conclude this decorative programme. The mural paintings, with their bright and fresh colours, are painted on a pale bluish-white wash throughout the chapel.
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posted
This otherwise good information is marred by suppositions about biblical personages that can neither be confirmed or disconfirmed by any historical records.
Rasol is it anyway possible to trim the fat and keep the meat?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
On Monday Feb 8 Tom Simms wrote [lst line is quote from me]:
>>Hudi appears to place this particular region in Medjaiu territory... > > From the beginning of the 18th dynasty Medjay were used routinelyv> for police in Egypt. They had no family connections hence were > seen as more trustworthy and hard to bribe.
Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of the Ptolemaic era, were talking about.
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posted
[Reposted from earlier in the thread after more fleshing out]
I'm hoping Bietak is more accurate here than he was about the C-Group. Snippets from his article for Nubia Museum on The Pan Grave Culture
quote: The carriers of this specific Nubian culture are thought to have been nomads from the Eastern Desert and are identified with the Medjay (later the Bedja) of the Egyptian texts - a designation of the desert Nubians in contrast to the Nehesy-Nubians of the Nile valley. This may be the correct assessment for a part of this population. The Medja land is known, however, since the late Old Kingdom and seems to have been situated near the Nile. Since king Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom.This may have triggered the move of the Pan Grave people to Lower Nubia and Egypt. According to both the Semna Despatches, dating from the late twelfth Dynasty (c. 1850-1800 BC), and the name of the 10th Nubian M[iddle] K[ingdom] fortress "Khesef-Medjayu" - "The one which repells the Medjay"- the Egyptian military authorities tried to stop this immigration from the desert, but in vain. Pan Grave cemeteries can be found in Lower Nubia and at many sites in Egypt dating principally from the time of the late Middle Kingdom and early Second Intermediate Period (c. 1800-1600 BC). Normally the cemeteries are small and situated on the fringe of the desert, often in the vicinity of cemeteries belonging to the local population. The most important sites are Deir Rifeh, Mostagedda with the largest cemetery, Qau, Balabish, Hu, Tôd, Daraw, and in Nubia at Shellal, Dakka, Wadi Allâqi, Sayâla, Aniba, Toshka, and at several places between Faras and Gammai. Sherds of this culture have been found at many other sites in Egypt extending as far north as Memphis. The most distinct cluster is, however, in Middle and Upper Egypt and in Lower Nubia.
The name Pan Grave Culture comes from the typical circular pit graves, which sometimes have a small stone circle as their superstructure. The dead are buried in a crouched position, on their right side, oriented either according to the absolute co-ordinates north-south with the head in the north, looking west, or oriented east-west, with the head in the east, looking south. The bodies rest on mats and are wrapped in leather or fur. They seem to have also imported Egyptian linen according to the representation of a Medjay man painted on a bukranium. This painting also shows the coiffure bulging backwards, in a similar manner to that worn in modern times by the Watussi men.
Pan-Grave pottery consists of open, flat, round-bottomed bowls with polished surfaces, and ledged rims. They are either plain polished with a black polished interior, which extends over the rim in the form of a black top. Other types of such bowls show an incised pattern, produced by a rough comb in criss-cross fashion. Beadwork of ostrich egg shell and nerita snails can be found with burials of both genders and are typical for this culture. The latter show connections via the eastern desert to the Red Sea. The Pan Grave people also had shell strip bracelets which seem to occur only in this culture. Very specific is the deposition of the bukrania of gazelles or goats, often painted with red dots, within the superstructure of the tombs. We also meet a similar custom with bull bukrania among the Kerma Culture.
No domestic architectural features are known from the Pan Grave Culture. Camps only display open-air features. The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features. This made them very suitable for the warrior profession. Often weapons of Egyptian typology such as daggers and battle axes, as well as bowstrings and arrow tips are found in their graves. This documents the employment of those people as warriors of the 13th and early 17th Dynasties. Records of the 13th Dynasty show different Medjay delegations being received at court.
Towards the end of the Second Intermediate Period the Medjay seem to have completely adopted the Kerma Culture which shows that new waves of immigrants had arrived. We may conclude this since according to Egyptian records the Medjay were engaged by the Theban late 17th and early 18th Dynasties as soldiers against the Hyksos. Nubian graves and settlement remains in Egypt from this period at Deir el-Ballas, Avaris and elsewhere reveal, however, no Pan Grave features but only signs of the Kerma Culture.
During the New Kingdom the Medjay were formed into a special force in charge of the deserts and the necropoleis. They served under Egyptian officers and, by means of documents can be followed up to the time of the 20th Dynasty, although nothing of their original culture has survived so late within the archaeological record. Nevertheless the Medjay were still remembered in Ptolemaic times as being associated with the eastern desert and bringing the traditional product of this region, gold.
Manfred Bietak, Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo
Bibliography for C-Group and Pan Grave Culture:
W.Y. ADAMS, Nubia, Corridor to Africa, Princeton 1977; M. BIETAK, Ausgrabungen in Sayala-Nubien 1961-1965, Denkmälerler der C-Gruppe und der Pan-Gräber-Kultur Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1966; IDEM, Studien zur Chronologie der nubischen C-Gruppe, Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1968; IDEM, The C-Group and the Pan-Grave Culture in Nubia”, in: Nubian Culture: Past and Present, Kunigl. Vitterhets historie och antikvitets akademiens Konferenser 17. Stockholm (Swedish Academy of Letters) 1987, 113-128; C. BONNET, Kerma, Royaume de Nubie, Geneva 1990; J. BOURRIAU, "Relations between Egypt and Kerma during the and the New Kingdoms", in: Egypt and Africa, Nubia from Prehistory to Islam, ed. by W.V. Davies. London (British Museum) 1991; B. TRIGGER, History and Settlement in Lower Nubia, New Haven 1965.
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This Mentuhotpe was considered a savior and founder of T3wy who relying on Nehhesyw resources consolidated Upper Egypt and conquered Lower Egypt to restore the unity of the Two Lands after the chaos and ravages of greedy self-interest Lower Egyptian nomarchs, unrestrained by a senile Pepy II, led to the breakdown known as the First Intermediate Period.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
We can assume that the royal house of the early Middle Kingdom, residing at Thebes, had close connections with Nubia.
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The 15th king of the 17th Dynasty was the son Queen Ahhotep I, and the brother of Ahmose I. Kamose went into war with the Hyksos with horse and chariot. His chariots were lighter and more maneuverable than in previous eras. He also had the advantage by having the Medjay as allies. These Nubian forces were ferocious hand to hand combatants that fought in the front lines. Kamose overcame the enemy at Nefrusy and moved into the oasis of Baharia. He then sailed up and down the Nile in search of traitors. When Kamose died, either of natural causes or of battle wounds, without an heir, his brother Ahmose I took the throne. Kamose was the last king of the 17th Dynasty. Ahmose I was to begin the 18th dynasty New Kingdom.
Ahmose I
King Ahmose I (Aahmes I) brother/husband to Ahmose-Nefertari
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Rasol is it anyway possible to trim the fat and keep the meat?
I don't agree with some of it, but it isn't my writing so....I'm relying on the reader to extract what is of value, rather than editing without the writers permission.
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I think this in particular is what Rasol is looking for in a repro of the original primary document now mislabeled as Carnarvon Tablet I which Labib Habachi corrected to The second stela of Kamose.
2nd stela of Kamose, Luxor Museum.
quote: His majesty spoke in his palace to the council of nobles who were in his retinue: 'Let me understand what this strength of mine is for! (One) prince is in Avaris [1], another is in Ethiopia, and (here) I sit associated with an Asiatic and a Negro! Each man has his slice of this Egypt, dividing up the land with me.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Most specifically, I am looking for is the mdw ntr source for the following which I placed in boldface:
Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!
I couldn't find that statement in The Admonitions of Ipuwer, but still looking for more writings.
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It's probably this interpretation from your link: The Medjay are pleased with Egypt: The Madjoi fortunately are with Egypt. (Wilson); The Medjai are content with Egypt." (Lichtheim)
But what does the original mdw ntr, actually 'say'?
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posted
The Ipuwer Papyrus (which doesn't appear to have any such quote) is from the 12th dynasty, centuries before Kamose plays his part in his family's three generation war against the Hyksos at the very end of the 17th and the very beginning of the 18th dynasties.
If you want Kamose's description of Hyksos, Keshli, and Medjay you'll have to get it from his two stelae. I wouldn't rely much on a post to ANE from someone who places the Midrash on the same plane as primary documentation left by those actually involved.
The Midrash is, however, excellent for arriving at how the Judaeans perceived things through the eyes of their "religious authorities" and can help piece out some anthropological and social puzzles.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm looking for the original mdw ntr where Kamose describes the Hyksos, Kushites and Medijay....haven't found it.
In the meantime,
[Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!]
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I'm not trying to change the topic just getting the facts in order because the Oriental Institute of Chicago is a RACIST and deceitful organization.
quote: .[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?]
LIE LIE LIE Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe and not native Afrikans the historic writers make it quite clear that Troglodytes who lived in North west Afrika lived in Caves so the word Troglodytes means "CAVE DWELLERS" here is some info on the Troglodytes.
quote: Mankind has added to the unique character of the region by carving cave dwellings into the hillsides and larger tufa cones here. The ancient Phrygians were probably the first to discover that the soft tufa was easily carved out into rooms and passageways . But it was the early Christians, several centuries later, that really seemed to "go to town," so to speak, building houses and even entire underground cities out of the soft rock. As you drive through the many valleys of Cappadocia, you see many ancient windows and doorways peeking out from the rock faces, but in a few areas, the work is especially interesting. The Goreme Valley, by the town of the same name, is loaded with tufa cones which have been carved into dwellings. Many of them are still inhabited today, and some have even been converted into hotels and pensions where you can sleep in an authentic cave room!
On the Terrace at Esbelli Evi
On our final day in Cappadocia, we visited the remarkable underground city of Derinkuyu, where a population of thousands actually lived sometime between 2000BC and 500AD. Derinkuyu is the largest of several similar underground cities in Cappadocia. Nobody is really sure who originally built these cities or when, but one theory holds that the Christians probably happened upon the remains of an ancient Phrygian complex here, and then expanded on it. They were then able to retreat into their completely-hidden subterranean city to hide from Arab raiding parties. The place is really amazing. There are some eight levels of underground rooms and passageways totalling some 1500 square meters discovered so far, with more exacavation work yet to be done. The troglodytes (underground dwellers) who lived here invented ingenious ventilation and defensive systems for their city. Dozens of hidden air vents reach to the surface, and large disc-shaped rocks weighing many tons could be rolled into place to block off the entry passages, making the city virtually impenetrable to outsiders. The troglodytes could hole themselves up in their underground cities indefinitely, leaving through secret passageways only to tend their fields when necessary. Taking a walk through the labyrinth of tunnels and rooms was like being in a J.R.R. Tolkien novel. Where are the hobbits?!
Historical writers make it known that the Troglodytes live underground in the DAYTIME to escape the HEAT of the SUN and came out at NIGHT. Such behavior is associated with people who are not endowed with the physical attributes to deal with the SUN.
quote: Look. Pay Attention. You are talking about the 18-19th dynasty. I am talking about the 13th Dynasty, which is what the folks who lay midway between us and these events, the Hellenistic Jewish writers in Egypt of , were talking about. Chenephres is not the only 13th dynasty king to appear in their tales -- they also identify Tutimaios as the Pharoah who drowned in the Red Sea--- one of the last of the 13th dynasty rulers.
We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
posted
"Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley"
I thought 'Nehesyw' was a name the Egyptians used to describe the settled riverine 'Nubians'. So the nomadic Medjay wer also called Nehesyw?
quote:rasol says:
The Hykso were Asiatics.
The Kushites were Africans.
The Rm.t [Ancient Egyptians] were Africans.
The Medijay were also Africans.
The conflict that brought about the New Kingdom was political in essence.
It also continued two long running themes of Km.t history -
1) The neverending incursions of Asiatics from the delta.
2) The battle for the Upper Nile valley heartland between Kesh-ite [and various other southerners] and Kemetians.
The Rm.t and their Medijay allies were on one side, the Hyksos and their Kushite 'allies' were on the other.
The conflict was not predicated on who was more related to 'whom'.
LOL
Ironically and humorously, the 'old scholars' have been claiming the Egyptian (read: "caucasian") vs. Nubian (read: "negro") war for the longest, even though the Asiatic Hyksos (even more "caucasian") were allies of the Kushites who are of course 'Nubian' (negro) and the "caucasian" Egyptians were allies of the Medjay who are also 'Nubians' (negro)!!
What a mess the 'old scholars' have gotten themselves into! If only they realized these politics had nothing to do with 'race' but with domination of one polity over another. All groups involved were indigenous (black) Africans, except of course the Hyksos. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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These Nubians also appear to have favored earrings, worn in a pierced lobe and crafted of either silver or copper wire formed into hoops with overlapping ends or twisted in numerous spirals. It has been cogently suggested that the ancient Egyptian custom of wearing ear ornaments for the first time in their history during the Second Intermediate Period is due to their adoption of this Nubian practice, which during the course of the New Kingdom became an ancient Egyptian unisex fashion..
It's interesting that you mention this, since wasn't it the Kushites that introduced what Egyptologists call the "shield earrings" which became especially popular among royals of the New Kingdom?? The "shield earrings" by the way, are those large circle earings that looked like small shields and were worn mostly by the women of the New Kingdom, like Tiye for example.
The Medjay in the ancient Egyptian documents, or Pan Grave culture Nubians, by archaeologists, because of the characteristic shallow, oval configuration of their graves. Graves of this type have been discovered over a wide geographic area from Nubia as far north into Egypt as Saqqara.
quote:rasol writes: "Saqqara" is in "lower Egypt".
So this means that the Medjay territory stretched well into Lower Egypt.
Since the Medjay were 'Nubians', living so far north into Lower Egypt just messes up the 'old scholar's' demarcation of Egypt and Nubia, huh? Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Don't let your overconcern with racial polemic invictives deprive you of good learning tools Hotep2u.
In our context the "Troglodytes" were people who mostly mined in the Eastern Desert. They (the YNTYW) enter Nile Valley records under seige.
On the "Palermo" Stone one early ruler whose name is lost has one year of his reign noted as the "Year of Smiting the Troglodytes."
Khufu has it recorded on a Sinai inscription that he's "Khnum-Khufu, Great God, Smiter of the Troglodytes."
The YNTYW habitation was called the highlands. Henu, minister of Mentuhotpe IV, employed them as bodyguards during his Hammamat expedition "the hunters and the children of the highlands were posted as the protection of my limbs."
Mentuhotpe IV himself tells us the YNTYW adored Min, "... Min of Koptos, lord of the highlands, head of the Troglodytes, ..."
Senwosret III named a fort that he had built in Wawat at a site south of Semnah "Repulse-of-the-Troglodyte's." There was even a "Repulse-of -the-Troglodyte's" feast on the 21st of Pharmuthi that was celebrated up to the time of Thutmose III.
That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
* their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
not by a rant against what in your mind is a "racist, deceitful" Oriental Institute of Chicago and "those hotdamn Jews" not even the wonderful Jewish Troglodytes of the Djebels of Libya who have sense enough to stay out of the hot dry desert sun like anybody with a brain would likewise do.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Since the Medjay were 'Nubians', living so far north into Lower Egypt just messes up the 'old scholar's' demarcation of Egypt and Nubia, huh
And let's not forget that Hotep and Altakruri have shown us that one of the oldest AUTHENTIC references to Nubia actually pertains to a city in pre-dynastic Ta Shemu - known in modern scholarship as Naquada [and Arab word].
The ws.t concept of Nubia is like - 'the Matrix'. It's and invention to keep the African scholar pre-occupied and pacified so 'agent Smith' [aka western scholarship] can maintain control of 'history'. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:What a mess the 'old scholars' have gotten themselves into! If only they realized these politics had nothing to do with 'race' but with domination of one polity over another
The sickest comment i've ever read from a western scholar stated that the "Egyptians" practised mummification so that when western historians came along and dug up their graves - they wouldn't be confused with "negros".
Talk about projection, and borderline psychopathy of racism!
ps - will try to source the quote, later.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Ipuwer Papyrus (which doesn't appear to have any such quote) [Ipuwer wails, Only the Madjaiu are with us!]
The question is still - what does it actually say?
Some quote is interpreted by Myra's link by three different scholars - so something is said, but what?
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quote: So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
No need for Jew baitin', just making sure that your aware that this topic might spill over into Jewish history because Hyksos were sent to live in a land called Canaan so keep that mind before you venture into Jewish history. Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
alTakruri wrote:
quote: That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
Budge Volume 1 page 59b makes it known that on the EASTERN SIDE of the Nile between the Area of the Red Sea and the Nile is the location we should be focusing on. Eastern Desert Tribes in General, so if the original Mdu Ntr can be shown that should also clear this up.
Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
Already got to the bottom of it, when Ausar mentioned the following:
The term Kerma is a modern term for a village around Northern Sudan. Kush[although some dispute it] was a term that ancient Kemetians applied to regions in the Upper Nile. The town known today as Kerma is possibly the Yam of the Old Kingdom texts of Km.t.
Since the people of Kerma had no writting,and Merotic is mostly undeciphered we don't know much about them except from archaeological remains. We do have some textual correspondence between the Kushites and Hykos leader that was intercepted by Kamose…
I believe the correspondence and Kamose aprehending the Kushite messanger to the Hykos comes from the Kamose stela. You can read second hand translations of the stea in the following books:
Ancient Egyptian Literature: A Book of Readings: Vol. 2, The New Kingdom (Paperback) by Miriam Lichtheim
The second Stela of Kamose and his struggle against the Hyksos ruler and his capital
by Labib Habachi
...or are you aware of a case different, that we don't yet know about?
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posted
According to the earliest records that we have mentioning the Medjay.
When Pepy I (~2289-2255 BCE) of the 6th dynasty wages war against the `A3mw Hhrywsh`a (sand-dwellers) Weny gathers recruits from the "Irthet (YRTT) Nehhesyw, the Mazoi (MDj') Nehhesyw, the Yam (Ym'm) Nehhesyw, among the Wawat (W'W'.T) Nehhesyw, among the Kau (K''W) Nehhesyw, and in the land of Temeh (TMHH)."
Then later, during the reign of Merenre (~2255-2246 BCE), Weny, who was eventually made Governor of the South, was sent to dig a channel through the 1st cataract. The pharaoh himself came to inspect the area, noted as the hill country, and personally met with the rulers of Mazoi (MDj'), Irthet (YRTT), and Wawat (W'W'T).
Later still, Weny is sent to dig canals and build cargo and tow boats out of Wawat acacia wood. He specifically says the rulers of Irthet (YRRTT), Wawat, Yam (Y'M) and Mazoi (MDj') who attend the project are Nehesu.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley"
I thought 'Nehesyw' was a name the Egyptians used to describe the settled riverine 'Nubians'. So the nomadic Medjay wer also called Nehesyw?
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posted
Substitute speculation with some serious research before presenting unsubstantiated guesswork. No one's ever agreed to the "racial hypothesis" for the situational conflicts leading to the founding of the 18th Dynasty. This thread's participants so far all agree with standard political science reasoning behind alliances and national rivalries.
Nothing like a Blacks vs Jews war had anything to do with it at all. Serious scholarship has ceased trying to make every A3mw group from the Retenu to the Hyksos to the Haribu into Jews, a people who just weren't in existance at the time and whose forebearers are first noted as landless people called YSR'L on the Merenptah stela 300 years after the Hyksos.
Don't forget this thread is about the Medjay who so far we've seen are * documented from the 6th dynasty all the way to the Ptolemaic era, * lived everywhere from near Kerma to the desert to near the Delta * practiced Kerma, Pan Grave and KM.t cultures * were everything from nomads to militarists
But please feel free to start a "Hyksos are Jews and the Keshli of Kerma were part Jewish and that's why they were at odds with KM.t and why the Hyksos called them son" thread.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: No need for Jew baitin', just making sure that your aware that this topic might spill over into Jewish history because Hyksos were sent to live in a land called Canaan so keep that mind before you venture into Jewish history. Now lets move on so we can get to the bottom of who are these people who gave help to the Hyksos, I must say I think Ausar is correct in saying they were probably living in the area of YAM because that place name does find it self into the Levant.
alTakruri wrote:
quote: That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
Budge Volume 1 page 59b makes it known that on the EASTERN SIDE of the Nile between the Area of the Red Sea and the Nile is the location we should be focusing on. Eastern Desert Tribes in General, so if the original Mdu Ntr can be shown that should also clear this up.
Hotep
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Members of the "Pan Grave" culture (ca. 2500-1500 BC), named for its shallow circular graves, served as bowmen and mercenaries in the Egyptian military and are attested in burials not only in Nubia but in Egypt itself.
Site 1
The term "Pan Grave" was created by Flinders Petrie for a culture first discovered by him during cemetery excavation in Kahun, Upper Egypt in 1898-99. Kahun is known as the pyramid builders' town.
Site 2
Friedman, Renée, Pebbles, Pots and Petroglyphs. Excavations at HK64, in: The Followers of Horus. Studies Hoffman, 99-106.
"The remote locality Hierakonpolis HK64 contains numerous graffiti and petroglyphs, and abundant surface ceramics and quartz pebbles. The evidence reveals a strong Nubian component and the presence of the nomadic Pan Grave people in the Pre- and Protodynastic Periods."
A painted ox skull with a portrait of a Pan Grave chief from Mostagedda, Middle Egypt. Second Intermediate Period. (Now in the British Museum.)
At Mostagedda, Brunton excavated several small Predynastic villages consisting of hut circles and middens. Cemeteries range in date from the Badarian and Predynastic to Dynastic and Pan-grave (Second Intermediate Period, following the Middle Kingdom; Brunton 1937: 3-4). North of Mostagedda at Matmar more Predynastic graves were excavated, mainly in Cemetery 2600-2700. Scattered in different areas at Matmar were graves with Sequence Dates of 74-81 (late Predynastic, early Dynastic; Brunton 1948: pl. 8-10, 20).
Site 3
SLIWA, Joachim, Siedlung des Mittleren Reiches bei Qasr el-Sagha, in: Atti VI Congresso. I, 565-571.
"The site of Qasr el-Sagha has a west and east settlement dating from the M.K., of which the first, probably destined for workmen, shows a strictly geometrical ground plan. The site was fortified and contained a number of 30 living units of equal size, possibly having sleeping room for 40 persons. The ceramics confirm the M.K. dating, at the latest the S.I.P. An interesting, typically XIIth Dynasty feature was the regularly curved "snake" wall, which here served no constructional or other function, since it was found below street level. Its symbolic function may be connected with a foundation ritual. The inhabitants of the town were probably engaged in mining activities at the nearby Gebel Qatrani. The finds in the eastern settlement point to a more workshop-like character there than in the western one. There is evidence for the Pan Grave culture at the site."
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What specific term in Mdu Ntr makes translators think that the term "troglodyte" is justified as its equivalent?
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Petrie excavated at Rifeh some 'pan graves' (Petrie 1907: 20-21), belonging to Nubian people living in Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period. Pan grave pottery is very similar to C-Group pottery. The surface is decorated with incised patterns. Other vessels are reddish-brown with a black top, very similar to the 'Kerma beakers', but not polished.
[dates approximated]
Badarian Pottery (4500-3800 BC)
Kerma Pottery (3000-1500 BC)
Pan Grave Pottery (2500-1500 BC)
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"The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features." - Manfred Bietak
An interesting comment from M. Beitak; wonder if these "archaic" characteristics extant prior to and 'apparently' during times contemporaneous to the so-called Pan Grave folks, has been identified in the living groups of the Nile Valley region...particularly the groups identified with them, the Beja.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
^^Right; the "Fuzzy Wuzzies". I've seen that LHS image on the nubianet.org site (below) before. Striking resemblance in body build, height and hair style to those of the Bejas.
posted
The Beja people were one of two broad multi-tribal groupings supporting the Mahdi, and were divided into three tribes. One of these, the Hadendoa, was nomadic along Sudan's Red Sea coast and provided a large number of cavalry and mounted infantry (called jehadiya). They carried breech-loaded rifles, and many of them had acquired military experience in the Egyptian army.
The name "Fuzzy Wuzzy" may be purely English in origin, or it may incorporate some sort of Arabic pun (possibly based on ghazi, "warrior"). It alludes to their butter-matted hair which gave them a "frizzy" look. This represents a rather weak attempt at humor on the part of British imperial troops, which had learned to respect the Hadendoa on the battlefield.
The name "Fuzzy Wuzzy" may be purely English in origin, or it may incorporate some sort of Arabic pun (possibly based on ghazi, "warrior"). It alludes to their butter-matted hair which gave them a "frizzy" look. This represents a rather weak attempt at humor on the part of British imperial troops, which had learned to respect the Hadendoa on the battlefield.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm hoping Bietak is more accurate here than he was about the C-Group. Snippets from his article for Nubia Museum on The Pan Grave Culture
The carriers of this specific Nubian culture are thought to have been nomads from the Eastern Desert and are identified with the Medjay (later the Bedja) of the Egyptian texts - a designation of the desert Nubians in contrast to the Nehesy-Nubians of the Nile valley. This may be the correct assessment for a part of this population. The Medja land is known, however, since the late Old Kingdom and seems to have been situated near the Nile. Since king Nebhepetre Mentuhotep (c. 2043-1992 BC) of the 11th Dynasty had married, besides other Nubian consorts, a dark skinned princess from Medja with the name Ashait, one may assume that this land was an established kingdom at that time, probably sited near the Kerma kingdom and was absorbed by the latter during the Middle Kingdom. This may have triggered the move of the Pan Grave people to Lower Nubia and Egypt. According to both the Semna Despatches, dating from the late twelfth Dynasty (c. 1850-1800 BC), and the name of the 10th Nubian M[iddle] K[ingdom] fortress "Khesef-Medjayu" - "The one which repells the Medjay"- the Egyptian military authorities tried to stop this immigration from the desert, but in vain. Pan Grave cemeteries can be found in Lower Nubia and at many sites in Egypt dating principally from the time of the late Middle Kingdom and early Second Intermediate Period (c. 1800-1600 BC). Normally the cemeteries are small and situated on the fringe of the desert, often in the vicinity of cemeteries belonging to the local population. The most important sites are Deir Rifeh, Mostagedda with the largest cemetery, Qau, Balabish, Hu, Tôd, Daraw, and in Nubia at Shellal, Dakka, Wadi Allâqi, Sayâla, Aniba, Toshka, and at several places between Faras and Gammai. Sherds of this culture have been found at many other sites in Egypt extending as far north as Memphis. The most distinct cluster is, however, in Middle and Upper Egypt and in Lower Nubia. -------------------------------------------------
Being nomads, I don't Medjay had actual 'kingdoms' like the Egyptians or the Kushites, but there is no doubt they had a ruling elite among them similar to those of other nomadic groups like the Scythian nomads of the Russian steppes whose 'royal' burial mounds were excavated and whose 'princesses' married Greek governors and nobles. I believe such was the case with the Medjay and that there was definitely an alliace between them and the Egyptians even before the advent of Kamose and the rise of the New Kingdom. The marriage of this Medjai princess may be proof of this.
However, even though the Medjay were allies of the Egyptians, I can understand the Egyptians' need to regulate their borders and prevent any unwanted incursions of Medjay people onto their lands. Such sudden incursions of foreigners may prove to be disruptive both economically as well as politically. The cause of the Medjay dispersals-- the Kerma domination also seems to be another likely factor to strengthen the Medjay alliance with the Egyptians especially in the war against the Kushites.
------------------------------------------------- The name Pan Grave Culture comes from the typical circular pit graves, which sometimes have a small stone circle as their superstructure. The dead are buried in a crouched position, on their right side, oriented either according to the absolute co-ordinates north-south with the head in the north, looking west, or oriented east-west, with the head in the east, looking south. The bodies rest on mats and are wrapped in leather or fur. They seem to have also imported Egyptian linen according to the representation of a Medjay man painted on a bukranium. This painting also shows the coiffure bulging backwards, in a similar manner to that worn in modern times by the Watussi men. -------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have this representation of a Medjay man??
------------------------------------------------- Pan-Grave pottery consists of open, flat, round-bottomed bowls with polished surfaces, and ledged rims. They are either plain polished with a black polished interior, which extends over the rim in the form of a black top. Other types of such bowls show an incised pattern, produced by a rough comb in criss-cross fashion. Beadwork of ostrich egg shell and nerita snails can be found with burials of both genders and are typical for this culture. The latter show connections via the eastern desert to the Red Sea. The Pan Grave people also had shell strip bracelets which seem to occur only in this culture[/b]. Very specific is the deposition of the bukrania of gazelles or goats, often painted with red dots, within the superstructure of the tombs. We also meet a similar custom with bull bukrania among the Kerma Culture. -------------------------------------------------
No doubt such material culture is continuous with the Sudanese Mesolithic.
------------------------------------------------- No domestic architectural features are known from the Pan Grave Culture. Camps only display open-air features. The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features. This made them very suitable for the warrior profession. Often weapons of Egyptian typology such as daggers and battle axes, as well as bowstrings and arrow tips are found in their graves. This documents the employment of those people as warriors of the 13th and early 17th Dynasties. Records of the 13th Dynasty show different Medjay delegations being received at court. -------------------------------------------------
As can be seen with modern day nomads of Northeast Africa, houses were simple and usually made of bio-degradable material like sticks and reeds so I would expect little evidence of homes. And of course the Medjay were famed for their armed services to the Egyptians from soldiers to policemen, which is another interesting parallel to the Greeks who would also employ Scythian nomads into such services because of their tall statures and their skill with the bow.
------------------------------------------------ Towards the end of the Second Intermediate Period the Medjay seem to have completely adopted the Kerma Culture which shows that new waves of immigrants had arrived. We may conclude this since according to Egyptian records the Medjay were engaged by the Theban late 17th and early 18th Dynasties as soldiers against the Hyksos. Nubian graves and settlement remains in Egypt from this period at Deir el-Ballas, Avaris and elsewhere reveal, however, no Pan Grave features but only signs of the Kerma Culture. -------------------------------------------------
Interesting. I wonder what initiated such a change in their culture. Was it really immigration of Kushites??
------------------------------------------------- During the New Kingdom the Medjay were formed into a special force in charge of the deserts and the necropoleis. They served under Egyptian officers and, by means of documents can be followed up to the time of the 20th Dynasty, although nothing of their original culture has survived so late within the archaeological record. Nevertheless the Medjay were still remembered in Ptolemaic times as being associated with the eastern desert and bringing the traditional product of this region, gold.
Manfred Bietak, Austrian Archaeological Institute, Cairo
Bibliography for C-Group and Pan Grave Culture:
W.Y. ADAMS, Nubia, Corridor to Africa, Princeton 1977; M. BIETAK, Ausgrabungen in Sayala-Nubien 1961-1965, Denkmälerler der C-Gruppe und der Pan-Gräber-Kultur Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1966; IDEM, Studien zur Chronologie der nubischen C-Gruppe, Vienna (Austrian Academy) 1968; IDEM, The C-Group and the Pan-Grave Culture in Nubia”, in: Nubian Culture: Past and Present, Kunigl. Vitterhets historie och antikvitets akademiens Konferenser 17. Stockholm (Swedish Academy of Letters) 1987, 113-128; C. BONNET, Kerma, Royaume de Nubie, Geneva 1990; J. BOURRIAU, "Relations between Egypt and Kerma during the and the New Kingdoms", in: Egypt and Africa, Nubia from Prehistory to Islam, ed. by W.V. Davies. London (British Museum) 1991; B. TRIGGER, History and Settlement in Lower Nubia, New Haven 1965. -------------------------------------------------
So the Medjay were completely assimilated? What about today's modern Beja, although they still practice many ancient customs why did they stop others?
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posted
^^ So is my focus. My question is why did the Pan Grave cultures cease? According to that source it ceased by the 20th dynasty and could this be due to Egyptian assimilation?
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<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
..Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus...
So is this person suggesting that Zipporah was black because she was a Medjay??
The Bible specifically states that she is Midianite and places her home somewhere in the Sinai.
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<i>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection
...I am not going to try to unravel this politico-military ethnic situation in Nubia which seems to have begun building up during the MK and came to a head during the 13th dynasty.[the arrival of the "large Negroes", the "Troglodytes" or jwntiw-sty ?] We do know that KhaneferRe Sobekhotep IV did fight some kind of campaign in Nubia, perhaps against the nearer jwntiw, or even against Kush itself, who were soon to nyam off the lst nome of Upper Egypt. It is interesting that the version which has Moses fighting on the side of the Ethiopians against the Bene Kedem is placed during the time of his exile, while Josephus' version, which has Moses laying waste the Ethiopians, is placed during his earlier Egyptian military career, before his glorious return, his crime, and his flight. One could thus assume that implicit Egyptian support lay behind Balaam's nearly successful attempt to conquer the Kushite kingdom, and that indeed this support was what Balaam [and the wru of Mdjaiu?] had been seeking at Iti Tawi.But Moses had switched sides, now that he was on the lam!...
quote:Hotep vehemently responded: I'm not trying to change the topic just getting the facts in order because the Oriental Institute of Chicago is a RACIST and deceitful organization.
LIE LIE LIE Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe and not native Afrikans the historic writers make it quite clear that Troglodytes who lived in North west Afrika lived in Caves so the word Troglodytes means "CAVE DWELLERS" here is some info on the Troglodytes.
...Historical writers make it known that the Troglodytes live underground in the DAYTIME to escape the HEAT of the SUN and came out at NIGHT. Such behavior is associated with people who are not endowed with the physical attributes to deal with the SUN.
..We are now walking on EGG SHELLS here, so do we really want to continue this topic? I have noticed numerous Afrocentric scholars either tip toe around these topics or end up being called anti-semitic because of the position they take so let me ask if Egyptsearch is ready to venture into this area of ancient Kemetic history?
quote:Then Takruri responded:
Don't let your overconcern with racial polemic invictives deprive you of good learning tools Hotep2u.
In our context the "Troglodytes" were people who mostly mined in the Eastern Desert. They (the YNTYW) enter Nile Valley records under seige.
On the "Palermo" Stone one early ruler whose name is lost has one year of his reign noted as the "Year of Smiting the Troglodytes."
Khufu has it recorded on a Sinai inscription that he's "Khnum-Khufu, Great God, Smiter of the Troglodytes."
The YNTYW habitation was called the highlands. Henu, minister of Mentuhotpe IV, employed them as bodyguards during his Hammamat expedition "the hunters and the children of the highlands were posted as the protection of my limbs."
Mentuhotpe IV himself tells us the YNTYW adored Min, "... Min of Koptos, lord of the highlands, head of the Troglodytes, ..."
Senwosret III named a fort that he had built in Wawat at a site south of Semnah "Repulse-of-the-Troglodyte's." There was even a "Repulse-of -the-Troglodyte's" feast on the 21st of Pharmuthi that was celebrated up to the time of Thutmose III.
That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the Troglodytes of Nubia."
The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe even both. Rest assured they were quite African.
So stick to the topic and cut the Jew baitin' playa hatin' right now before it starts. We're really going to continue this topic and do so by researching the MEDJAY in the method suggested by the earlier post
* their first historical mention * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc.
not by a rant against what in your mind is a "racist, deceitful" Oriental Institute of Chicago and "those hotdamn Jews" not even the wonderful Jewish Troglodytes of the Djebels of Libya who have sense enough to stay out of the hot dry desert sun like anybody with a brain would likewise do.
So the question is just WHO ARE THE TROGLODYTES??
From what I've heard, the Troglodytes were people who lived in the Western Deserts somewhere in Libya and were "hunted" by the Garamantes in their two-horsed chariots.
But more recently, in a book I read it also speaks of Troglodytes who lived in the Eastern Deserts.
So my questions:
Were the Troglodytes of the Eastern and Western deserts the same or different peoples, and what relation do those in the Eastern Desert have with the Medjay?? Were they a branch of the Medjay or a different people altogether??...
LOL And what did that author mean by "large negroids"?!! Did he mean that these people were of great stature in the same way old scholars called Pygmies "small negoids"??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: So the question is just WHO ARE THE TROGLODYTES??
alTukruri wrote:
quote: Nothing like a Blacks vs Jews war had anything to do with it at all. Serious scholarship has ceased trying to make every A3mw group from the Retenu to the Hyksos to the Haribu into Jews, a people who just weren't in existance at the time and whose forebearers are first noted as landless people called YSR'L on the Merenptah stela 300 years after the Hyksos.
Black people were also included amongst the Jews so of course it couldn't be a Black vs. Jews fight, stop trying to read between the lines and let it go.
LETS MOVE ON
Look Eurocentrics are trapped in RACIST idealogies so they always have to try and misconstrue information to fit their limited scope of intelligence again I will repeat
E.A Budge Egyptian Dictionary Vol.1 page 59b uses the words An-tiu which breaks down as "Eastern Desert Dwellers" from An-tt "Eastern Desert".
Troglodytes are extra mental leaps being added in that interpretation of An-tiu.
posted
^ I agree with Hotep in that the use of the term Troglodytes is gratuitous in the context of this discussion - especially if one objects to the use of the term Jew, which is similarly gratuitous.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I'm all for using the indigenous words as much as possible. To that end YNTYW/jwntiw needs the anglo phoneme Antiu, "hillmen," to replace troglodyte, "hole dweller," which like the word nomad refers to living conditions not to ethnicity. Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte, like the former Hole Jews of the Libyan Djebels who have no relation to Herodotus' Aithiopian Troglodytes (c. 450 BCE) of the Western Desert "hunted" by the Garamantes nor Breasted's Troglodytes (c. 2500 BCE) in the Eastern Desert employed by the Kmtyw as miners, bowmen, etc.
I don't object to the term Jew. Its an invalid anachronism to refer to Jews before there was a state of Judah. It's incorrect and imprecise to substitute Jew for Aamu, Retennu, Hyksos, Haribu, and whatnot, as sloppy and enthusiast "scholars" do. Each of the foregoing have their own precise meaning that need to be stuck to if we're to retain any clarity when discussing either of them, that is unless we want to be as intentionally obscurist as we accuse others of being in their blanket usage of the term "Nubia/Nubian."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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