quote:Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte
Nonsense. Anyone anywhere in the world is *not* called that.
Eurocentrists select their interpretations with great predjudice, and bait others into repeating the terms and predjudices that go with it - even when it is done sub-consciously.
If there is one thing this thread makes clear - it's that.
Notice how the Beja can be Nubians or Negros in the context of Troglodite:
Medijay Troglodytes.
But in the context of being great warriors - suddenly they are "Arabs" and portrayed by Europeans:
Medijay Warriors.
Very mischevious indeed.
Hotep's point is well considered.
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posted
Antiu is a non-specific ethnonym applicable to people in the highlands or hill country east of the Nile Valley whether in the Sinai, the Eastern Desert, or the Nubian Desert. Medjay were Antiu but were all Antiu Medjay?
Medjay were employed by TaShemau in the wars against the Hyksos whereas other records make Antiu Seti out as enemies of TaShemaw.
Aahmes, a naval officer, served Ahmose I, Amenophis I, and Tuthmosis I, all the first kings of the 18th dynasty. Under Ahmose captain Aahmes
quote: sailed up the river to Khenthennefer to crush the Antiu of Sti,
In Amenophis' southern campaign Aahmes
quote: sailed up the river to Kash to extend towards the south the frontiers of Egypt. His Majesty captured that accursed Anti of Nubia in the midst of his accursed bowmen;
For Tuthmosis he again
quote: sailed up the river to Khent-hen-nefer, to put down the rebellion in Khet land, and to put an end to the incursions of the people of Asemt.
and received the commission "Captain of the Transport." Aahmes reports
quote: His Majesty sailed down the river having all the mountains and deserts in his hand. And that accursed Anti of Nubia was hung up head downwards, at the prow of the boat of His Majesty,
Unlike those Medjay Antiu in the TaShemau army these "Sti" Antiu were the ones Kamose complained about when contemplating the three way power split Kmty government between himelf, Kesh, and the Hyksos.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Troglodyte is from the Greek Trōglodutai, trōglē, hole, + dutai, burrower), and was employed as such by Herodotus in describing a people in the vicinity of the Garamantes. Since no one of that time new anything about prehistoric cavemen our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances. Miners are certainly hole burrowers.
Troglodytes can be anyone anywhere in the world and have been called so. Strabo's Troglodytes were south of the Danube (today's southern Germany, Austria, Hungary) and in the Caucasus (Russia, Georgia).
If the miners in the Sinai (mostly A3mw, possibly the Horites -- hole dwellers -- in Hebrew texts) and the Eastern Desert (Antiu) built their homes directly into the hills around them instead of erecting their housing then they were troglodytes. The rock cut churches of Lalibela in Abyssinia is an example of troglodyte architecture being hewn out of the living rock. Nothing primitive or cavemanish about it rather one of the highest form of monolithic work known to man (along with Khmer's Angkor architecture by an eastern Aithiop people).
Breasted's use of Troglodyte for the people between the Nile and the Red Sea is not pejorative. He's following the Greek usage. The Greek texts use Trōglodutai for them and Plutarch notes Cleopatra's knowledge of Troglodyte language.
Anyway as I wrote before, and it seems to have been missed so I repeat it here, I agree with Hotep2u's suggested use of Antiu instead of troglodytes for Eastern Desert/Nubian Desert folk because that's the word in the R3n Mdw and using it overturns mental colonization. However, that "Troglodytes were not native Afrikans they were more likely migrants from Europe" is an erroneous assumption without support from primary documents, and what he further wrote confuses different times, places, and peoples.
But if the goal is to rap "whitey" instead of to learn about the Medjay and the Antiu then I mean go ahead what the heck. But me, as regards Medjay/Antiu, I'm about * their historic mentions * archaeological notices about them * locations they occupied * their economy * their military exploits * their relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * their migration patterns * etc. Learning this will positively displace Eurocentric falseheads without negatively resorting to rage venting polemics that don't teach a thing about Medjay/Antiu, classic African civilizations, or Africana in general at all.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Anybody anywhere in the world can be a troglodyte
Anyone anywhere in the world is not called that though. Eurocentrists select their interpretations with great predjudice, and bait others into repeating the terms and predjudices that go with it - even when it is done sub-consciously.
Hotep's point is well considered.
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posted
And I repeat in case it was missed Is Lalibela a case of burrowing hole into rock?
The troglodyte or Hole Jews of Libya had entire underground villages. There's much more to troglodyte than the devolved simplistic popular image of primitive ugh ugh cavemen that modern connotations give the word.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Repeating redundant comments doesn't have a damn bearing on the ancients' or Breasted's usage of troglodyte Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Where can I find an ancient source of Lalibelans, never heard that word before.
Okay, let me put it this way, in a way you can understand:
Where can I find an ancient source that refers to the people of Lalibela as "troglodytes"?
quote:alTakruri:
And don't redundantly repeat what you already wrote.
Since, you've been the one who has been parroting my words to this point, but just incorporating a few new words, don't worry...I'll leave the art of redundant repetition to you.
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posted
Your mastery of redundancy is exhibited at the start of this exchange, thanks for teaching me so well. Baiting commentary aside, at level suited to your understanding, go do some research. There are no Lalibelans or people of Lalibela. Lalibela is the king responsible for the troglodyte architecture at Roha in Ethiopia. But since you're so much more intelligent than me I expect you can at least Google lalibela AND troglodyte and educate yourself on the application of the latter to the former.
Peace out!
Reserving my time for productivity, i.e., researching the thread's subject instead of inane chatter prompted by ridicule of my associating Lalibela and troglodyte in the hopeless attempt of imparting other than its popular connotation which I'm sure has been gathered by those who can follow me without contempt in mind.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Your mastery of redundancy is exhibited at the start of this exchange,
You parrot other people's comments and repeatedly ask a question that has no bearing on the said comment, and here you are, accusing me of redundancy. Interesting.
quote:alTakruri:
Baiting commentary aside,
Hey, more power to you, if you took my comment as a "bait", in which case, you have fallen for a "bait", and hence, making you a guilty party.
quote:alTakruri:
at level suited to your understanding, go do some research...
Lalibela is the king responsible for the troglodyte architecture at Roha in Ethiopia. But since you're so much more intelligent than me I expect you can at least Google lalibela AND troglodyte and educate yourself on the application of the latter to the former.
You make a claim, and you are asked to provide some 'substantiation' on the said claim, but somehow other folks have to do that job for you?! Wow.
quote:alTakruri:
There are no Lalibelans or people of Lalibela.
Whatever helps; if it makes your comprehension of what I am getting at any better, so be it:
Where can I find an ancient source that refers to the people of "Roha", or else, any Ethiopian associated with the Lalibela architecture as "troglodytes"?
quote:alTakruri:
Reserving my time for productivity, i.e., researching the thread's subject instead of inane chatter prompted by ridicule of my associating Lalibela and troglodyte in the hopeless attempt of imparting other than its popular connotation which I'm sure has been gathered by those who can follow me without contempt in mind.
How you perceive a comment that has no bearing on your follow up comments, is a problem that belongs you. That you see nothing wrong with calling folks "troglodytes", whom the Kemetians never referred to as a such, is something that you are of course entitled to, on a personal level; just don't expect others to buy into that logic!
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posted
To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle only designed to ridicule what one mind can't grasp, Lalibela's rock cut churches at Roha are fine representation of troglodyte architecture.
Now if anybody other than Supercar doesn't understand that, then I'll be happy to explain to them how an architectural style differs from the mode of living of a people. The Abyssinians employing troglodyte architecture no more makes them troglodytes than Americans pitching tents makes them nomads. Labeling Abyssinians troglodytes appears no where in my posts and is a weak attempt to substantiate ridicule by putting words in my mouth that never issued from my mouth by someone who has nothing on topic to contribute to this thread's subject matter, "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
Funny, because that is precisely what I intended to do about the mentioned inane prattles of yours.
quote:alTakruri:
only designed to ridicule what one mind can't grasp, Lalibela's rock cut churches at Roha are fine representation of troglodyte architecture.
What your mind doesn't grasp is that, the cheap attempt to use the Lalibela structures to justify your casual repetition of someone's usage of "Troglodytes" on some ancient African group, isn't lost on any perceptive observer.
quote:alTakruri:
Now if anybody other than Supercar doesn't understand that, then I'll be happy to explain to them how an architectural style differs from the mode of living of a people.
Interesting. So an isolated crude cave dweller can be called a "troglodyte", and someone who happens to live or use a rather more sophisticated, and possibly more impressive structure carved out of a huge rock could also be referred to as such, to the extent that nothing really delineates the former from the latter, by this simplistic reference to the term.
quote:alTakruri:
The Abyssinians employing troglodyte architecture no more makes them troglodytes than Americans pitching tents makes them nomads.
...hmmm, and yet, your bringing the Abyssinians into this in the first place, seems to be somehow meant to provide a justification of your reference to an ancient African group as "troglodytes".
quote:alTakruri:
Labeling Abyssinians troglodytes appears no where in my posts and is a weak attempt to substantiate ridicule by putting words in my mouth that never issued from my mouth
...why not call those Abyssinians troglodytes, as they would be supposedly named after a "style" or method of building/producing architecture, if your logic is anything to go by? Besides, again, isn't that the whole purpose of bringing them up in the first place? No one need to put anything in your mouth, when your own actions or postings make the implications pretty obvious.
quote:alTakruri:
by someone who has nothing on topic to contribute to this thread's subject matter, "Medjay: the Nehhesyw just east of the Valley."
As someone who apparently hasn't been following the posts in a topic started by himself, I suggest you take another peek at my postings herein. In fact, exposing the erroneous nature of someone's rather casual and unjustified reference/term imposed on an ancient group, is in itself a significant contribution to the discussion at hand. Naturally, the culprit of the error in question will feel different about the value of this contribution. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:SuperCar writes: the cheap attempt to use the Lalibela structures to justify your casual repetition of someone's usage of "Troglodytes" on some ancient African group, isn't lost on any perceptive observer.
^ Well said.
quote:AlTakruri writes: our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances.
I'm sorry, but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
You are trying to justify MODERN, selective, prejoritive and non-native use of the term, by Europeans.
Moreover, as Supercar rightly noted: you are repeating after it yourself - not merely quoting Greeks. So the issue here is your use of the word.
Is the term of the mdw ntr? No.
Is the term of Beja origin? No.
Therefore you have no defense, only rationalisations.
From past conversation, I know that, in spite of your intelligence and literacy, when you stop making sense, as you sometimes do, you quickly burrow yourself in deeper and it gets worse and worse.
Perhaps then, you regard YOURSELF as a TROGLODYTE: 1. A prehistoric race of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes.
2. A person considered to be reclusive, reactionary, out of date, or brutish.
3. An anthropoid ape, such as a gorilla or chimpanzee.
If not, if that *in any way* offends you - then you certainly get the point.
Or...you can drag this conversation on, by pretending it is not offensive, which would merely make you appear a desparate fibber, and a very unconvincing one at that. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
^ You've succeeded reducing your at one time civil and informative thread to just that. So I'm ending my contributions to it. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
It may make no sense to you and that's fine by me.
The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
As usual when it comes to disagreement you resort to talking about me instead of the subject matter at hand. What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes, it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture. If you want to take it out of context and make something else of it instead of researching the term its no reflection on me. Europeans do use the word in reference to current places in Europe not just Africa.
There is a larger world of learning outside the nature of a debate club. Go do the research! Just because you want to limit the word is no reason for others to have your limitation forced onto them, closing off their minds to learning something new, just as Hotep2u taught me something new. Expand your mind.
But since so many of our people still don't accept the word of one of their own but recognize something as valid only if "Simon" says, then hear it from Simon.
Troglodyte communities down the centuries have created a little-known form of architecture that demonstrates exceptional versatility and resourcefulness
Hewn from the living rock
Troglodytism belongs to a very ancient and widespread tradition which still continues to be practised. There are more than 40 million troglodytes in China today. In Tunisia, ancient dwellings hewn vertically out of the rock have been transformed into attractive hotel complexes. Remarkable examples of cave-dwelling communities still exist in Spain, Italy and France. In the Saumur region of France, near the river Loire, many cave dwellers enjoy the same amenities as householders who live above ground. At the same time many troglodytic sites have been abandoned, many are deteriorating and will soon be beyond repair, and others have disappeared entirely, even if some are being renovated thanks to tourism. Is troglodytism merely a survival from a bygone age which will one day be forgotten?
Sanctuaries and refuges
The tomb-temples of Petra in Jordan, the Buddhist temple-monasteries of Ajanta and Ellora in India, the burial vaults of Lycia and the rock churches and hermitages of Cappadocia in Turkey are outstanding examples of troglodytic sanctuaries. Some of them, such as the rock churches of Lalibela in Ethiopia, are still used for worship. These forms of sacred architecture hewn from the living rock are highly sophisticated. Carving a sanctuary from the block, like sculpture, allows no room for error.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:our modern pejorative connotation is inapplicable to historic circumstances.
I'm sorry, but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
You are trying to justify MODERN, selective, prejoritive and non-native use of the term, by Europeans.
And, you are using it...now, independant of any authentic reference.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
No I think Supercar did that, the same as you two did after disagreeing on the Qustul censor where you each escalated the lack of civil discourse and information because one or the other of you had to win a debate instead or admitting there's supportive evidence to backup both of your differing opinions and letting it go at that.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To break this down so that others don't become confused with inane prattle
^ You've succeeded reducing your at one time civil and informative thread to just that. So I'm ending my contributions to it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
If you agreed that the Kemetian reference was "at least" the appropriate way to refer to Medjay or related folks in the ancient context, then why are you trying so desperately hard to justify the term [troglodyte] imposed on them?
quote:alTakruri:
What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes,…
As far as you are concerned, correcting your obvious erroneous positions, is also an attack on you. So then, the Abyssinians weren’t seized upon, to justify your defense for calling the ancient Nile Group “troglodytes”, huh?
quote:alTakruri:
it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
Fabrication eh? Where is that source in Mdu Ntr, which refers to the “Medjay” or related group as troglodytes, or such ancient reference by the said group themselves? Unless, you can provide that source, you are imposing this term on these ancients, and well, the rest should be pretty forward, I hope.
quote:alTakruri:
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture.
…and hence, why not just call the folks associated with these Lalibela structures as “troglodytes”?!
quote:alTakruri:
No I think Supercar did that,
….in trying to get you to realize the straw base of your effort at defending the immaterial usage of “troglodyte” on an ancient Nile Valley group?…That, I am certainly guilty of. The prattle thereafter, however, should certainly be credited to you.
quote:alTakruri:
the same as you two did after disagreeing on the Qustul censor where you each escalated the lack of civil discourse and information because one or the other of you had to win a debate instead or admitting there's supportive evidence to backup both of your differing opinions and letting it go at that.
^^Red herring and tansparently crude distractive flame-instigation antics designed to deflect attention from your engagement in the very actions that you are attempting to accuse others of in the above. But FYI, in that discourse, there was no disagreement or agreement on an opinion on my end, which would have been clear to anyone who carefully read the thread. On that note, feel free to proceed with more distractive antics, as you just did.
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PLEASE LET US STOP THE TROGLODYTE arguing, because it is just unproductive to this very important topic. I am not for promoting anti-semitism by calling children of Israel or followers of Judaism any names so let us just let go the distraction that I created due to the fact that I realized J.Breast was wrong for claiming Troglodytes for Antiu.
posted
True the arguing is pointless. It's idiotic to imagine that GrecoRoman authors had a 20th century western meaning for a word they simply used to describe habitation and equally applied to Europeans, Asians, and Africans. All the primary documentation written in Greek and Latin has the word Trōglodutai in it nonpejorative original etymological sense, even Heliodorus in his Æthiopica.
Nor is it anti-Semitic to use the term "Jewish Troglodytes" for the Hole Dwelling Jews of the Libyan Djebels as did the Jewish authors Sidney Mendelssohn and Nahoum Slouschz among others.
The builders of the Lalibela troglodytic architecture cannot be described as troglodytes because they didn't live in houses carved into the living rock. They made those rock cut churches only, and they remain an engineering marvel to all, inspiring admiration not insult.
This pejorative connotation is quite modern and could not exist before the 1908 discovery of neanderthal man and the Field Museum's brutish 1920's reconstruction of him entered popular culture and Hobbes infamous phrase "nasty, brutish, and short" was applied to fossil man.
Breasted writing in 1906 is using the word found in the primary documents of classical literature he is not passing a cultural judgement that was unknown to him.
And thank you again for introducing me to the Kmtyw term Antiu and providing us with the repro of the original mdw ntr of Breasted's Ancient Records of Egypt Vol I §311 translation
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
PLEASE LET US STOP THE TROGLODYTE arguing, because it is just unproductive to this very important topic. I am not for promoting anti-semitism by calling children of Israel or followers of Judaism any names so let us just let go the distraction that I created due to the fact that I realized J.Breast was wrong for claiming Troglodytes for Antiu.
posted
It is idiotic to assume that the "Antui" could be called "troglodytes" at will by much later imposition of the term, when no primary source from the ancient folks of the Nile Valley referring to the aforementioned group as such has been provided or exists. It is just as idiotic to assume that the later imposition of the term, should not be intepreted in the contexts that the term is generally known for.
I suppose those priests who spend most of their time in the Lalibela structures, could be called troglodytes.
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posted
I hope this blank space you're reserving will be filled with something on Medjay/Antiu
* historic mentions * archaeological notices * locations they occupied * economy * military exploits * relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * migration patterns * etc.
though I seriously doubt you are able to contribute anything along those lines.
quote:Originally posted by :
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
You've been shown that neither Breasted nor his primary GrecoLatin texts could possibly use the term in the meaning it's only acquired since the mid 20th century.
To get back to the topic, can you contribute something on Medjay/Antiu
* historic mentions * archaeological notices * locations they occupied * economy * military exploits * relations with the various Nile Valley dwellers * names of some of their personages of notoriety * marriage relations with pharaohs and nobility * migration patterns * etc.
as all the other posters to this thread have done?
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: It is idiotic to assume that the "Antui" could be called "troglodytes" at will by much latter imposition of the term, when no primary source from the ancient folks of the Nile Valley referring to the aforementioned group as such has been provided or exists. It is just as idiotic to assume that the latter imposition of the term, should not be intepreted in the contexts that the term is generally known for.
I suppose those priests who spend most of their time in the Lalibela structures, could be called troglodytes.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I hope you'll stay in tune with the times, and see that the blank space no longer exists, as most of us "alert" readers are by now aware of.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You've been shown that neither Breasted nor his primary GrecoLatin texts could possibly use the term in the meaning it's only acquired since the mid 20th century.
More importantly, than the non-sequitur need for me to justify Breasted's use of the term, where is the primary source from the ancients of the Nile Valley with reference to the "Antui" in such a term?
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It may make no sense to you and that's fine by me.
The term was used in the quote from Breasted and for the third time I agreed we should use Antiu in reference to the peoples between the Nile and the Red Sea.
As usual when it comes to disagreement you resort to talking about me instead of the subject matter at hand. What's worse you join a baseless attack on me. Neither you nor anyone else can quote me calling Abyssinians troglodytes, it just a seized upon fabrication to berate me for not agreeing with you that troglodyte isn't just a pejorative and that the ancients didn't employ it as a pejorative.
I really don't care if you or anyone else wants to go on and on about the pejorative use of troglodyte. There is such as thing as troglodyte architecture in the world whether or not you acknowledge it. When buildings are hewn out of the living rock like at Roha, its troglodyte architecture. If you want to take it out of context and make something else of it instead of researching the term its no reflection on me. Europeans do use the word in reference to current places in Europe not just Africa.
There is a larger world of learning outside the nature of a debate club. Go do the research! Just because you want to limit the word is no reason for others to have your limitation forced onto them, closing off their minds to learning something new, just as Hotep2u taught me something new. Expand your mind.
But since so many of our people still don't accept the word of one of their own but recognize something as valid only if "Simon" says, then hear it from Simon.
Troglodyte communities down the centuries have created a little-known form of architecture that demonstrates exceptional versatility and resourcefulness
Hewn from the living rock
Troglodytism belongs to a very ancient and widespread tradition which still continues to be practised. There are more than 40 million troglodytes in China today. In Tunisia, ancient dwellings hewn vertically out of the rock have been transformed into attractive hotel complexes. Remarkable examples of cave-dwelling communities still exist in Spain, Italy and France. In the Saumur region of France, near the river Loire, many cave dwellers enjoy the same amenities as householders who live above ground. At the same time many troglodytic sites have been abandoned, many are deteriorating and will soon be beyond repair, and others have disappeared entirely, even if some are being renovated thanks to tourism. Is troglodytism merely a survival from a bygone age which will one day be forgotten?
Sanctuaries and refuges
The tomb-temples of Petra in Jordan, the Buddhist temple-monasteries of Ajanta and Ellora in India, the burial vaults of Lycia and the rock churches and hermitages of Cappadocia in Turkey are outstanding examples of troglodytic sanctuaries. Some of them, such as the rock churches of Lalibela in Ethiopia, are still used for worship. These forms of sacred architecture hewn from the living rock are highly sophisticated. Carving a sanctuary from the block, like sculpture, allows no room for error.
If by 'Troglodyte' one means cave-dwellers, then yes there were 'Troglodytes' all over the world including the indigenous people of Taiwan to even an isolated people in the Philippines and Indonesia.
But still, what is the difference between the Troglodytes of the Western Desert and those of the Eastern??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"Troglodytes"...just nonsensical. It is just as ridiculous as the notion of placing indigenous Africans into the context of "caucasoid" and "negroid" races, so as to implicate a divide that has no objective biological reality, yet, one insists on utilizing it for meeting political ends. This is no trivial matter, and shall be seriously dealt with, as in any other case of deceitfulness.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
^^How is it nonsensical? Troglodytes does not imply anything 'racial' does it? It only describes a mode of living (in caves).
But again, what is the difference between Troglodytes of Libya and those of the Eastern desert?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^How is it nonsensical? Troglodytes does not imply anything 'racial' does it? It only describes a mode of living (in caves).
Since when does something have to be "racial", to be considered a nonsense? I must admit that this question is puzzling, as to what mindset would ask it, considering the exchanges made about the term. Have you not been following those exchanges? Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
The latter included some A3mw (and others mining in the Sinai) as well as the Antiu to the east of the Lower and Middle Nile Valleys. By Greco-Roman times Trogodytis or Trogodytarum were the lands adjoining the Red Sea. Today's Bedja are probably their descendents.
The former were southern neighbors of the Garamantes. They weren't, as you put it, in the Western Desert, they were in the Tibesti massif. The Tibbu/Teda may be their living descendents.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But still, what is the difference between the Troglodytes of the Western Desert and those of the Eastern??
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The problem with this letter is that it unsuccesfully tries to mesh the Jewish Midrash with history. At one and the same time it relies on the Midrash while bashing the very pieces used as evidence. Plus it's overall an enthusiasts' essay already determined to find its premised question vindicated, regardless of factual data be it pro or con.
The valid part of the premise arises out of 1). - post biblical non-Hebrew texts which have the same spelling for Medjay and Madiei 2). - taking Procopius' Maddeni for Midian.
quote: Although the ancients were aware of the movement of peoples like the Habeshan (Beshmat) and Sabaeans from the Arabian peninsula to the Horn a few centuries before the Christian era (a movement fairly well documented by archaeologists), it is clear from the ancient writings on the "Arabs" that the peoples of the Arabian peninsula and the non- immigrant, indigenous nomads of the Horn were considered ethnically one and the same and thought to have originated in areas near the cataracts of the Nile. Troglodytes (Bedja) were said to live on both sides of the Red Sea.
Several southern Arabian peoples like the Himyarites of Yemen who are sometimes referred to as Ethiopians and the Maddenioi or Madiei of the Hejaz Asir were considered Saracens by Procopius. Such people had strong commercial ties with Africa through the Red Sea trade. It is hard to imagine that the people on the Arabian coast on the eastern side of the Red Sea called in ancient inscriptions Madiei were not in some way related to those men called in ancient times Madjai or Madjayu (the Egyptologists' rendering of the name) on the western or African side of the Red Sea. The Medjayu are mentioned before 2000 B.C. and appear as late as Roman times in Egyptian texts as truculent desert nomads. They are presently considered to be ancestral to modern Bedja or Cushites. The latter (Madjai) carried on a great caravan trade with Egypt as late as the days of the Romans and the former (Madiei) were considered incense traders.
Dana Reynolds The African Heritage & Ethnohistory of the Moors: Background to the emergence of early Berber and Arab peoples, from prehistory to the Islamic dynasties in Ivan Van Sertima (ed) Golden Age of the Moors Piscataway: Transaction Publishers, 1992
It's totally unnecessary to make Medjay out of the Midianites to support SSipporah's blackness, the Tanakh itself poetically groups Midian both with Sheba and with Kushan.
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:04:07 -0500 From: nyokabi@xxxxxxx.com Subject: ane the Medjaiu connection ...
Now as for the tradition reported in the JE that Jethro and Balaam were councillors at Pharoah's court during Moses' childhood [not sure which mini-king this would be, 20? years or so before Cheneferre if latter was Merris/Thermouthis husband, possibly Sobek. II?]: Jethro was the priest of Midian, and Balaam the worldly bad guy leader of the Children of the East, the hordes of Bene-Kedem. One version of the 13th dyn military action in Ethiopia in which Moses is said to have taken part has him fighting as an ally of the "Ethiopians" --presumably the Kushites -- against the intrusive Bene Kedem, Children of the East, who, under the leadership of Balaam, had temporarily captured the Ethiopian capital city. With Moses' help King Nikkanos regains his city and throne and Moses is given his daughter in marriage. [See Ullendorff Ethiopia and the Bible for refs]. Thus explaining away Moses' Kushite wife without having to admit that Zipporah the Midianite was black. The question of whether the First Lady of Israel was black may have been the motivating force behind the spinning of these yarns, but as has been pointed out by C. Edenberg, some details in a concocted narrative may yet provide historically real information. [cf Morris Silver's interesting use of Greek "fairy tales" to try to reconstruct economic history of Colchian-Greek relations.] The historical context here seems to be a civil war in Nubia during the period prior to the Exodus.
...
So is this person suggesting that Zipporah was black because she was a Medjay??
The Bible specifically states that she is Midianite and places her home somewhere in the Sinai.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I can understand how TeBadawi{TaMedjay} are considered mecenaries and warriors they still elaborate this Warrior Dance which is ancient. Beja are still known as Warriors threwout Sudan,Egypt,Eritrea,Ethiopia.
Himyarites and Midian or Medjay do u have any more information about that takruri TaBedawi Medjay being on both sides of the red sea this might explain the reason why All Beja speak Tigre as well and might explain the reason why the Beja call Tigre Madian.
Didnt the egyptians say that set dwelled in the desert east or west of the nile i know amenta was considered south right. Is there any references to gods being assocatied with those who dwelled east of the nile in ancient kmt
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Am I stretching it too much if I say Bedjayu>Bedu>Bedouin who roam the desserts of the Sinai and Arabia proper? or there is absolutely no connection.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
The Beja are also known in Egypt as the Ababda. Most of the Ababda are Arabized Beja tribes.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Ababda and Bisharin the only Beja Tribes who dwell in Egypt speak arabic but are still Beja and part of the Beja Confederation. Ababda explain there recent arab lineage which in no way limits there bejaness
There is no connection because the arabian desert is just and extention of the African desert and living like a socalled Bedouin is not foriegn to Northeast Africans but is actually a livelyhood that predates bedoui of arabia.
These people come from many areas of "Upper Egypt" including Kom Ombo, Karm-El-Deeb, Qena, Nag-El-Ababda etc. And most likely various areas in Sudan.
Ababda came into northern Egypt to dig the Suez Canal and settled in Ismailia. The Ababda and other Se3edees that came to the North brought much with them including Simsimeya Music which is similar to the Ababda and Beja style.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Ok, I was just wondering because the names seems similar,but Bedouin is actually a mode of living not an ethnic group?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
What a coincidence. Just yesterday I was reading a piece by an Italian Egyptologist who mentioned Yntyw first being applied to south Levantines before Eastern Desert populations.
posted
^ The earliest recorded inhabitants of the Sinai were a people called Monitu by the Egyptians. The region in general was known as Ta Mafkat or Land of Torqoise which was the stone commonly mined there. Unfortunately this is the only thing I know about the early Sinai people and I'm desperate to learn more. I believe such people may be the key in bridging the ethno-history of Egypt and the Levant.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I've seen that spelled Myntyw. When applied specifically to Levantines spelled Ymw Myntyw on a Karnak relief of Seti I. Haven't seen the Mdw Ntjr so don't know if the y in Ymw could also be an a making the word into Amw.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Hyksos are a myth There were multiple different groups who
Egyptians had conflicts with in less than a dozen hieroglypic references All of those identified are identified by different hieroglyphic words.
If any one finds some actual hieroglyphs that * call any enemy hyksos * call any enemy kings/rulers * state any enemy ever ruled Egypt, let me know in this forum or by private e-mail
posted
(culled from April, 2005) It's funny how these Sunday School Bible Topics keep poppin up , but anyway...
quote: The Asiatics; called the Amu, Seteyu, Hek Khasu (Manetho's Hyksos), came into Egypt as prisoners or as indentured servants because Egypt offered them opportunities. As their numbers increased they began to insinuate themselves into various positions of power. Ipuwer's complaints about the presence of the Red Ones in Egypt provides a cunning image of the changes taking place. The Red People, the coarse nomads, consolidated their gains and opened Egypt to more and more migrations from the Mediterranean region.
--The Hek Khasu ( "foreign kings/rulers" nee Hyksos) never gained control of the entire country; only the Delta.
--A list of the HekKhasu -can be found at the end of Budge's dictionary. Does everyone know which dynasty to start looking in?
--The Hebrews role in history, because of the Bible, has been greatly exaggerated and/or overated...
--- Oh yeah, also for the Biblically inclined:
Pharaoh named Joseph, his friend, "Za-ef nath pa Aniah" which I read as "His son who becomes the Anu" and I interpret as Joseph being made an honorary or adopted Anu...even given an Anu lady to wed...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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