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Posted by Hafun626 (Member # 12381) on :
 
Hi i just wanted to know which group of people the ancient Egyptians resemble today?. the reason i ask is because i friend suggested they never looked like the Egyptians of today (the people living in Egypt today). And if there are such people, is it widely acknowledged by the wider community (meaning Scientist, Archeologist, or historians).


PS: I know you may have discussed this in the past, but am new here. Thank you
 

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Posted by tk101 (Member # 12361) on :
 
yes i'm pretty sure the egyptians of today dont resemeble those of the past...simply becuase of the immigration over the centuries
 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
Depends what modern Egyptian population you mention. There are two contrversial statues from ancient Egypt known as Ka-aper[Sheikh el beled] and Ra-hotep and Nofret. Both these statues resemble many modern Egyptians but as a whole Egyptians have mixed with foreigners.

The people in Egypt that most closely resemble the ancient Egyptians are the people in the southernmost regions of Egypt. Most people in the southern most regions have not mixed with foreigners as much as people in northern Egypt.

The Beja and Nubian people have been said by many scholars to resemble the ancient Egyptians.


http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/images/109images/egyptian/kaaper.jpg
When Mariette's workers discovered this statue, they called it "Sheikh el-Beled", because of its appearance being similar to the chief of their village. However, it actually portrays the figure of a chief lector priest known as Ka-aper.
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/picture06242003.htm
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Indeed.





Not all Egyptians, especially those from rural areas of the south, are as 'mixed' as many think.











Ironically, the only time you see such Egyptians on TV is on programs that feature archaeological digs like on the Discovery Channel. These archaeological excavations take place on famous sites like the Valley of the Kings in which the Egyptologists are assisted by people from local villages to do all the manual labor like digging. These local people don't get good camera time or shots, but it seems like it hardly occurs to many that these local (black) peoples are the closest relatives to those buried in those ancient tombs!
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
I think the people who resemble the ancient egyptians the most would be the Horn of Africans Djhetui that Southern Egyptian looks no different than Most Ethiopians Eritreans.


The Beja & the Nubians look no different than Ethiopians Eritreans Somalians sudanese.

Children of Egypt
Beja
Nubian
Eritrean
Ethiopian
Somalian
Sudanese
Fellahin Saeedi
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^As far as "Children of Egypt" goes, the Fellahin Saeedi should be at the top of the list because they are the direct descendants of Pharaonic Egypt with the least admixture. Although believe it or not there are Fellahin Baladi (northern/Delta) who are not that affected by foreign mixture also and still retain their African looks. So really Fellahin in general should be number 1, followed by the Beja who closer in relation and speak an Afrasian language closest to Egyptian, followed by the Nubians who have shared the Nile Valley.

The others I would not consider 'Children of Egypt' since they are all from the Horn but more like 'Brothers of Egypt'.

But I get your point.

But for humor:

Egyptian..........................Somali

Nefertiti............................Iman
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Djhetui i actually had it in no order but since u put it that way then i would have to say that u are wrong.

Djhetui i would have to say that the Beja & Nubians resemble the Ancient egyptians more than the Fellahin Saeedi u can look at bones look how hte Nubians & Beja are built then look at a Saeedi u can see the difference.
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 
See the Beja thread that I just bumped for one example.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hikuptah:

Djhetui i actually had it in no order but since u put it that way then i would have to say that u are wrong.

Djhetui i would have to say that the Beja & Nubians resemble the Ancient egyptians more than the Fellahin Saeedi u can look at bones look how hte Nubians & Beja are built then look at a Saeedi u can see the difference.

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Exactly what do you mean??
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^As far as "Children of Egypt" goes, the Fellahin Saeedi should be at the top of the list because they are the direct descendants of Pharaonic Egypt with the least admixture. Although believe it or not there are Fellahin Baladi (northern/Delta) who are not that affected by foreign mixture also and still retain their African looks.

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Do you mean "Bahari" (i.e. "coastal")? "Baladi" simply means "of the country," similar to the meaning of Fellahin.
 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
I think that is what Djehuti means but speaking of different sub-groups in Egypt Bahari,Sa3eedi,fellahin,and baladi mean different things. Usually in most Arabic speaking countries ''baladi'' would mean just a person native to that country but in Egypt it is used by city dwellers to refer to rural people who have migrated into the big cities.


Bahary usually reffers to a northern Egyptian as opposed to a Saeedi which refers to a southern Egyptian.

When people refer to fellaheen in Egypt they usually mean those people in the Delta but not really the ones in Middle or southern Egypt. Although, most Saeedi can be seen as Fellaheen because of their profession.


What makes things even complicated that most Westeners don't know is you have people living in Middle Egypt divided up between ashraf,Arabs and just Fellaheen. Mostly areas like Asyut to Qena have these divisions.


The history of rural Egypt is just as fasinating and complex as that of the urban areas of Cairo. Only difference is the histories in rural Egypt are more word of mouth than written.


Plus since the 30's- 70's groups mainly from the Delta and Middle Egypt[locally known as almost Saeed] have migrated to places like Alexandria and Cairo. Most of these groups brought their villages with them living in places that began to be named 'shaabi' or 'baladi' areas.
 

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Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 
Here's a little piece from the VERY OBJECTIVE Larry Orcutt regarding the affinities of the Dynastic Egyptians:

"The Egyptians are better classified using evidence of their language and their material cultures, historical records, and their physical remains because so-called "racial" identification has been elusive, much for the reasons cited above. Skulls have been measured and compared and DNA tests attempted in various forms, but conclusions are few. Skulls are more similar to those found in the Northern Sudan and less similar to those found in West Africa, Palestine, and Turkey" So, I guess they looked most like the Beja, then.

P.S. Damn Iman's fine....
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Well in that case, I mean both Baladi and Bohari who are rural.

As to Obelisk's response, of course Northern Sudanese are black and are much closer to West Africans overall both in cranio-physiognomy and in genetics to peoples of Turkey.

But anyway, you are correct you can't run from the truth for long.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Djehuti what i was trying to say is that Fellahin Egyptians Nubians Beja dont look no different than the people of the Horn.

If Beja are identical to ancient egyptians than u would have to add Eritrea Ethiopia & Sudan because they Beja live in both of those countries and dont look no different from the NorthEast African population.
 

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Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


As to Obelisk's response, of course Northern Sudanese are black .

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quote:

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and are much closer to West Africans overall both in cranio-physiognomy and in genetics to peoples of Turkey.

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quote:

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But anyway, you are correct you can't run from the truth for long.

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Yep, just like a man can't run away from sex...if it's chasing ya, it's gonna get ya eventually .

[ 14. November 2006, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
 

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Posted by Hafun626 (Member # 12381) on :
 
Very interesting, if indeed what you say above is true, why then do we have some of the archeologist or historian in disagreement?
 

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Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
 
Ancient Egyptians slept on pillows made of stone. That's actually what caused many of their deaths....
pillow fights....
 

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Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 
Its simple ancient Egyptians looked like modern day Somalis!


ps (I bet thats gonna get some peeps responding in funny ways lol)
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Speaking of which...

quote:

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Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:

Ancient Egyptians slept on pillows made of stone. That's actually what caused many of their deaths....
pillow fights....

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Actually, many Egyptians slept on headrests like these:









Somali headrests:





Oromo headrest:



Afar headrest:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Afar+headrest
 

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Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 
He was being funny djehuti, don't you have a sense of humor babe ?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Of course! Which is why I made the last post.
 

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Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hafun626:
Hi i just wanted to know which group of people the ancient Egyptians resemble today?.

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Evergreen Writes:

The Ancient Egyptians were a melting pot of Ancient African peoples. Hence, Ancient Egyptians resembled different people in different parts of Egypt. In some parts of AE there were populations that had a greater resemblance to modern Khoisan peoples. In other areas we would see people that had a greater resemblance to Somali's and other modern Horn of Africa peoples. In other areas we would see people who looked more like Nilo-Saharan speaking people such as the Maasi or the Teda people of southern Libya. We would also see people that resemble modern Central Africans. There were also SW Asians who were diverse, probably similar to modern Southern Egyptians. Over time these disparte populations mixed creating different trends in different parts of Egypt. This diversity was accentuated by immigration from Eurasia, Central Africa and the Sudan over the dynastic period.
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 
Djehuti: I didn't know Egyptians slept on headrests. You can find those type all throughout Ethiopia.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Well now you know. Surprised?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
But didn't those coffuire protecting headrests have some
kind of cushioning between them and the sleeper's head?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^I don't think so. Also, it is known that they also served a more spiritual purpose, for Egyptlogists have discovered that the Egyptians believed sleeping on such headrests protected the sleeper from snakes and scorpions-- a belief shared by many nomads in the African Horn.

Myra has that book on Somalis, so she might be able to post some more pics.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
In addition to the headrests, there are many Tuaregs who also sleep on the low wooden beds found in ancient Egypt. Also there are some desert nomads who dress in the white garb often depicted in ancient monuments. I will try and look up some pics later....
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Yes, I know the white linen dresses that you speak of. They are worn by many northeast African nomads from the Beja through various Ethiopians and Somalis.

Bisharin (Beja)


Somali


Egyptian


 

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Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
He was being funny djehuti, don't you have a sense of humor babe ?

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Why you calling Djehuti babe?

Djehuti are you female?

Because if you are I was under the impression you were male.

Either that or Obelisk is female.
 

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Posted by Tee85 (Member # 10823) on :
 
I think he's trying to sexually harrass Djehuti becuz he's knows Djehuti doesn't like to be called "Babe".
 

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Posted by Africa (Member # 12142) on :
 
Obelisk...why do you use that user name?
plan2replan Copyright © 2006 Africa
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 
Headrest History:

"The oldest known headrests of Africa are from ancient Egypt. They first seem to appear around the time of the Second or Third Dynasty of the Old Kingdom, that is, around 2600 B.C." (Petrie, 1927:33).

For early sub-Saharan headrests, Flinders Petrie, the noted Egyptologist, who is famously known as "The Father of Prehistory", asserts in his book Objects of Daily Use. London: British School of Archaeology in Egypt, 1927, p. 36: "There seem to have been two introductions of the idea into Egypt, one in the Second-Third Dynasties, another in the Seventeenth-Eighteenth Dynasties. In the latter, there is no question of strong African influence; and by the portrait of Zeser [Pharaoh Djoser], the Third Dynasty, has been supposed to be of southern origin. It may be that the head rest, so characteristic of Africa at present, was twice introduced into Egypt from African sources, coming first with the fluted columns of the step pyramid age."

.
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 


Use and Meaning:

Headrest are so often described as being used to support or protect the elaborate coiffures (hairstyles) that the statement has become a trusim. Too often downplayed is the purpose of these coiffures and why they need protection. Of course there is the common urge to adorn and beautify, and the days of labor invested in constructing are reason in themselves to protect the hair with a headrest while sleeping. However there is reason which is often glossed over or ignored. Coiffures frequently declare their owner's age, gender, rank or status, and are often embellished and/or empowered by accoutrements and charms of a magico-religious nature. They then become sign, symbols and potent empowering devices that must be protected.

Text Reference:

Sleeping Beauties, The Jerome L. Joss Collectiion of African Headrests at UCLA, by William J. Dewey, University of California, Los Angeles, 1993

Coiffures (hairstyles)


Natives of Ugogo, east central Africa Gogo
Source Title: Illustrated London news.
Publisher: London : Illustrated London News and Sketch Ltd., 1842




Woman with coiffure in the form of a crest with ornaments and comb.

Igbo, Nigeria, West Africa
Photo: Afrika Museum, Berg en Dal.

A coiffure is perfected by various decorations: cowries, beads, mother-of-pearl buttons, medals, pieces of silver, amber balls, metal rings, and pins of wood, bone or ivory. In the West African Sahel, the Fulbe and Peul (Fulani) cultivate impressive hairstyles.

For purposes to do with magic, a man or woman may also attach amulets to certain hairdos. The more elaborate coiffure includes braids, crests, curls, cascades, chignons, and vertical cornrows.


Great Hair Days in Ancient Egypt


.
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
But didn't those coffuire protecting headrests have some
kind of cushioning between them and the sleeper's head?

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Tutankhamun's Stained Ivory Headrest



While usually shown without any cushion to soften the hard surface on which the head lies, some headrests have been found that still have soft cloth wrapped around them.

Bes was a household god who was often depicted as a lion, as on the jar in the form of a standing lion. He was also a protective deity, and in this role he would safeguard the deceased against enemies with a ferocious growl.

.
 

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Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
Headrest History:

"The oldest known headrests of Africa are from ancient Egypt. They first seem to appear around the time of the Second or Third Dynasty of the Old Kingdom, that is, around 2600 B.C." (Petrie, 1927:33).

For early sub-Saharan headrests, Flinders Petrie, the noted Egyptologist, who is famously known as "The Father of Prehistory", asserts in his book Objects of Daily Use. London: British School of Archaeology in Egypt, 1927, p. 36: "There seem to have been two introductions of the idea into Egypt, one in the Second-Third Dynasties, another in the Seventeenth-Eighteenth Dynasties. In the latter, there is no question of strong African influence; and by the portrait of Zeser [Pharaoh Djoser], the Third Dynasty, has been supposed to be of southern origin. It may be that the head rest, so characteristic of Africa at present, was twice introduced into Egypt from African sources, coming first with the fluted columns of the step pyramid age."

.

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See kids, even Petrie, the creator of the infamous Dynastic Race theory, admitted the africanness of ancient egypt, for example in the um, headrests.
 

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Posted by Pax Dahomensis (Member # 9851) on :
 


You won't see it wholly from this pic but this Egyptian I met on Djoser's complex literally looked like a carbon copy of 18th dynasty royals.

Also I wanted to say that I've met four Horn Africans in Egypt and that they were quite distinct from Egyptians as I guessed where they were from (Somalia and Ethiopia).
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pax Dahomensis:


You won't see it wholly from this pic but this Egyptian I met on Djoser's complex literally looked like a carbon copy of 18th dynasty royals.

Also I wanted to say that I've met four Horn Africans in Egypt and that they were quite distinct from Egyptians as I guessed where they were from (Somalia and Ethiopia).

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The original question was about ancient Egyptians, not modern ones. Horn Africans don't look very much like Northern Egyptians (more like Upper Egyptians and Nubians), though there are a few dark Baharis.
 

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Posted by Pax Dahomensis (Member # 9851) on :
 
^^
I have spent more time in Upper Egypt than in Lower Egypt actually. I have seen many Upper Egyptian in Cairo as well, but I was still able to distinguish them from Horn Africans. Some Saeedi look like Horn Africans like the one below, but many don't IMO:

 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
Pax, most Saeedi I will agree probably resemble medium to light skinned African Americans more than people from the Horn of Africa. Lots also resemble many multi-ethnic people. This also depends which part of Sa3eed you go to because lots of Sa3eedi in places like Minya and Asyut are lighter than ones in Luxor-Aswan.

Although this region has been more isolated you still have some mixture from outsiders that occured both in dyanstic and post-dyanstic Egypt.

Places like Minya,Asyut and Sohag have had foreign settlement in some villages as late as the 1800's. Both from bedouin and Moroccan Berbers.

I wrote a post on this somewhere in the archives.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Ausar most Saeedi resemble medium to light skinned African-Americans rather than horn of africans are u kidding me African-Americans resemble West Africans completely most horn of africans u find are even much lighter than Saeedis.

So Ausar there are no Medium to Light skinned Horn of AFricans there are more people who look like SAeedis in Ethiopia alone than the whole AFrican American People as a Whole.

One More thing Djehuti that Picture u have of those Beja are not Beja.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Pax Dahomensis Saeedi Egyptians do not look like Beja nor do they look like Nubians so how can they look like Horn of Africans.

The Beja & the Nubians look more like Horn of Africans than they do to SAeedi or any modern DAy Egyptian.

But Saeedi Egyptians look more African than they look Arab.

One question to Pax Dahomensis so when u were in Egypt do Saeedis look like Beja & Nubians.
 

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Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hikuptah:
Ausar most Saeedi resemble medium to light skinned African-Americans rather than horn of africans are u kidding me African-Americans resemble West Africans...

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quote:

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Ausar most Saeedi resemble medium to light skinned African-Americans rather than horn of africans are u kidding me African-Americans resemble West Africans completely most horn of africans u find are even much lighter than Saeedis.

So Ausar there are no Medium to Light skinned Horn of AFricans there are more people who look like SAeedis in Ethiopia alone than the whole AFrican American People as a Whole.

One More thing Djehuti that Picture u have of those Beja are not Beja

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Read my post to what I said. Also please use the QUOTE]put text here[/QUOTE]


when you quote me because its confusing.
When I say Sa3eedi resemble light to medium African Americans is because they typically don't have as narrow noses that a Somali,Ethiopian or a Beja. Sure there are people that do but not uniformally.

The ones that don't look like lighter skinned African Americans will typically resemble a multi-ethnic person from Brazil,Puerto Rico,Dominican Republic. Of course these populations are diverse themselves and all have African ancestry with some exceptions.


An African American that looks like this:




He could put on a galabeya and pass for somebody around Luxor-Aswan. Trust me I know. A former poster that happened to be African American went to Luxor area and got mistaken for the local people and even in Cairo.


African-Americans are diverse themselves and range in color and phenotype.

Nubians are fairly diverse themselves and let me give you an example:




__that guy is a Nubian from Aswan He is very famous in Egypt and loved by all Egyptians



 

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Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
[QUOTE]when you quote me because its confusing.
When I say Sa3eedi resemble light to medium African Americans is because they typically don't have as narrow noses that a Somali,Ethiopian or a Beja. Sure there are people that do but not uniformally.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Thought, that is what I got from reading Dr. Fekri Hassan and Dr. Keita. The Nile Valley never had a uniform African phenotype.

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Evergreen Writes:

Absolutely right!
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
Can this ruler fit in with locals of anywhere in East Africa, central, west Africa, or south Africa?



Indeed, it is not surprising that crania of predynastic Egyptians and the dynastic ones, resembled those of many "interior" African groups. It was a melting pot of Saharo-tropical Africans. Recalling...

Keita and Boyce, on the peopling of the Nile Valley:

“Archeological data, or the absence of it, have been interpreted as suggesting a population hiatus in the settlement of the Nile Valley between Epipaleolithic and the Neolithic/predynastic, but this apparent lack could be due to material now being covered over by the Nile (see Connor and Marks 1986, Midant-Reynes 2000, for a discussion). Analogous to events in the Atacama Desert in Chile (Nunez et al. 2002), a moister more inhabitable eastern Sahara gained more human population in the late Pleistocene-early Holocene (Wendorf and Schild 1980, Hassan 1988, Wndorf and Schild 2001). If the hiatus was real then perhaps many Nile populations became Saharan.

Later, stimulated by mid-Holocene droughts, migration from the Sahara contributed population to the Nile Valley (Hassan 1988, Kobusiewicz 1992, Wendorf and Schild 1980, 2001); the predynastic of upper Egypt and later Neolithic in lower Egypt show clear Saharan affinities. A striking increase e of pastoralists’ hearths are found in the Nile valley dating to between 5000-4000 BCE (Hassan 1988). Saharan Nilo-Saharan speakers may have been initial domesticators of African cattle found in the Sahara (see Ehret 2000, Wendorf et. Al. 1987). Hence there was a Saharan “Neolithic” with evidence for domesticated cattle before they appear in the Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 2001). If modern data can be used, there is no reason to think that the **peoples drawn into the Sahara** in the earlier periods were **likely to have been biologically or linguistically uniform.**


…A dynamic diachronic interaction consisting of the fusion, fissioning, and perhaps “extinction” of populations, with a decrease in overall numbers as the environment eroded, can easily be envisioned in the heterogenous landscape of the eastern Saharan expanse, with its oases and Wadis, that formed a reticulated pattern of habitats. This fragile and changing region with the Nile Valley in the early to mid-Holocene can be further envisioned as holding a population whose subdivisions maintained some distinctiveness, but did exchange genes. Groups would have been distributed in settlements based on resources, but likely had contacts based on artifact variation (Wendorf and Schild 2001). Similar pottery can be found over extensive areas. Transhumance between the Nile valley and the Sahara would have provided east-west contact, even before the later migration largely emptied parts of the eastern Sahara.


Early speakers of Nilo-Saharan and Afroasiatic apparently interacted based on the evidence of loan words (Ehret, personal communication). Nilo-Saharan’s current range is roughly congruent with the so-called Saharo-Sudanese or Aqualithic culture associated with the less arid period (Wendorf and Schild 1980), and therefore cannot be seen as intrusive. Its speakers are found from the Nile to the Niger rivers in the Sahara and Sahel, and south into Kenya. The eastern Sahara was likely a micro--evolutionary processor and pump of populations, who may have developed various specific sociocultural (and linguistic) identities, but were genealogically “mixed” in terms of origins.

These identities may have further crystallized on the Nile, or fused with those of resident populations that were already differentiated. The **genetic profile of the Nile Valley via the fusion of the Saharans and the indigenous peoples were likely established in the main **long before the Middle Kingdomp**…




…Hoffman (1982) noted cattle burials in Hierakonpolis, the most important of predynastic upper Egyptian cities in the later predynastic. This custom might reflect Nubian cultural impact, a common cultural background, or the presence of Nubians.


There was some cultural and economic bases for all levels of social intercourse, as well as geographical proximity. There was some shared iconography in the kingdoms that emerged in Nubia and upper Egypt around 3300 BCE (Williams 1986). Although disputed, there is evidence that Nubia may have even militarily engaged upper Egypt before Dynasty I, and contributed leadership in the unification of Egypt (Williams 1986). The point of reviewing these data is to illustrate that evidence suggests a basis for social interaction, and gene exchange.
 

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Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 
It has already been discussed here numerous times that Ancient Egyptians were different to modern Egyptians.

In my opinion Ancient Egyptians predominantly were from the horn and very much resembled modern day Horn Africans. Whereas modern day Egptians may look very different due to the influx of foriegn genes. Remembers that it is not only West Africans that have broad features but many Arabs and turks also have this.




This map shows that there is hardly any E3a amongst Egyptians but better yet a higher percentage of E3b from the horn. Surely if they were a mixed melting pot modern Egyptians would have high amounts of E3a!
 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
Most of the samples in that study,Prince of Punt, are from Cairo. Most of the Arabs and Turks in Egypt went into Cairo and the Delta. Most of the broad Egyptians are southern Egyptians that have only negligable ancestry from Arabs. E3a is not rare in Upper Egypt and neither is markers like L2. BTW, most of the Turks were Cricassian[mamelukes] that were white skinned.


Most of the pre-dyanstic came from the Sahara which probably had both broad and narrow Africans. The Sahara is closer to Egypt than the Horn so it does not suprise me that such people would predominate.
 

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Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 
Thanks for the clear up Ausur

But as for the modern Egyptians who resemble people from the Sahara, its just common sense as you highlight. But weren't the Ancient Egyptians different to the nubians in stock, yes there was intermixing but it happens with all neighbouring peoples.


I say this because When the sahara is taken into account, aren't the people which are said to be the closest to representing the Ancient Egyptians their the Beja, and not for example a nilo saharan or arab mixed nubian group?
 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
I am speaking of the pre-dyanstic Egyptians and when the Sahara was not as dry as it is today. We find broad type Africans amongst the skeletal remains. In places like Egypt there are probably some overlap in terms of Afro-asiatic languages and Nilo-Saharan. Take the Hausa for instance they speak Afro-Asiatic but are generally broad Africans as opposed to narrow Africans like people from the Horn.

The Sahara and Nile Valley are basically zone of interaction for many different types of Africans. People need to consider this when analyzing ancient Egypt.
 

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Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
pre-dynastic era could have been some thousands years with all kind of people interating in that region, and the dynastic era was also a very long time, so saying they were predominatly this or that just doesn't make sense, considering most of the ethnic groups of today were not even existent at that time as they are today, people migrate, meet, interact, form groups, disperse meet other groups, interact again and form further groups(tribes, ethnicity, clans etc.). So to say they were from the horn predominetly, sounds quite biased and simplistic imo.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
The Horn of AFrica is so diverse that the Broad type is all over from ERitrea Sudan Somalia not all horn of africans are straight noses i can show u millions without.

The same reason why u cant say all Saeedi's have broad noses is the same reason why u cant say all horn of africans have straight noses.

My Point is that the people of the horn do not all have straight noses and not all saeedi's have broad noses.

Broad nose does not make u less african and straight nose is not from Europe but indigenous to africa. I hope u all know that alot of African-Americans are mixed.
 

---

Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:
pre-dynastic era could have been some thousands years with all kind of people interating in that region, and the dynastic era was also a very long time, so saying they were predominatly this or that just doesn't make sense, considering most of the ethnic groups of today were not even existent at that time as they are today, people migrate, meet, interact, form groups, disperse meet other groups, interact again and form further groups(tribes, ethnicity, clans etc.). So to say they were from the horn predominetly, sounds quite biased and simplistic imo.

---

That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!

Ofcourse there was intermingling between different groups of the past. But the fact remains from Egyptians depicting themselves that they were a unique African group, like there are many African groups today.

I have some questions for Ausur.

Did the Bantu Expansion reach Egypt?

Why did the Egyptians depict themselves as being different to the nubians (ie Nilo saharans)?

Was not most of north east Africa inhabited by Cushetic type people, as southern part of Africa was inhabited by Khoisan types in the past?

What origin is proposed for the Nilotic or Nilo saharan speaking people?


(Ps. all this is to learn the truth, and not to be a clown, thats for the trigger happy troll spotters in here!!! )
 

---

Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
Even many of the Sa3eedi people have some mixture. Ultimately, it depends what village and who settled there.

Remeber Sa3eed is a large place and most Sa3eedi live in places like Minya,Asyut and other parts of Middle Egypt. You have ''Almost Saeed'' and ''Deep Saeed'' which is Southern Upper Egypt. To most Cairene this is all the same but not to people in Saeed itself.

On average they have broader features than Somalis,Beja and people from the Horn of Africa. Also they tend to have more tightly curled hair.
 

---

Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
1. The Bantu expansion never was near Egypt and from most accounts I read it was mostly from southern Cameroon into Central Africa. Bantu people are not the only ones with broad phenotypes.

2. People like Nilo-Saharans,Shilluk and others are just as indigenous to North eastern Africa as are Somalis,Beja or any other group. The Nuba people of the Nuba mountains also inhabit northeastern Africa.


3. I think on the apperance of the ancient Egyptians its better to survey the various tombs depictions instead of the Book of Gates pictures. Uniformally it would appear the Egyptian males were reddish brown while females were yellowish but I think this does not reflect the phenotype of every Egyptian and variations existed. Also if we judge pictures of Nubians they are diverse themselves and sometimes in the case of a tribute scene in Rameses III tomb are shown in the exact reddish-brown as an Egyptian.
 

---

Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Ausar is it safe to say that Saharans Egyptians Nubians WEst africans South AFricans originated from the Horn of Africa True or False or did all africans Originate from the Sahara.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

quote:

---

Did the Bantu Expansion reach Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

[Obelisk_18:], Why you calling Djehuti babe?

Djehuti are you female?

Because if you are I was under the impression you were male.

Either that or Obelisk is female.

---

No I am not female, but male and Obelisk KNOWS that!

Apparently Obelisk is male also, as for why he calls me and other guys on this forum 'babe', I don't know. I thought the guy is gay, but he says he's not and is into females(?).

Moving back to the topic...
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Both Ausar and Yonis are correct in what they say. The populations of the Nile Valley going back to predynastic times was diverse. You cannot say one 'phenotype' was more predominant than another. Both broad features and narrow features were just as prevalent as the other.

There were more migrations from the Sahara than there were from the Horn since the Sahara is right next to Egypt, actually Egypt is part of the Sahara. Even then, the peoples of both the Sahara region and the Horn region are diverse themselves with peoples of various phenotypes.

Egyptian


Ethiopian


Also, as Ausar said you cannot associate language with phenotype.

Afrasian speaker


Niger-Congo speaker


^^Both the Hausa and Wodaabe above have lived in the Sahara for millennia.

Also, there was no seperation between the Horn and the Sahara either, as the evidence for migrations from the Horn to the Sahara.
 

---

Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hikuptah:
I hope u all know that alot of African-Americans are mixed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
[QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Did the Bantu Expansion reach Egypt?

---

the furthest north bantu expansion reached in East Africa was Kenya, and maybe also southern somali, but i think most of the bantus in southern somalia were brought there by persian settlers and arab slave traders such as the omanis from places like Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia.
Btw P.O.P did you know "Moqdishu" is a persian name, it means "the seat of the shah" Maq-da-shah? I recently learned this, LOL.

---

^I did not know that (about Moqdishu).

But as for the Bantu expansions, exactly what was the limit to their expansion?



Today, The furtherst Bantu presence north is southern Somalia, southern Ethiopia, Southern Sudan etc. And limited in Central Africa by the Ubangi river and of course there are still Bantu languages left in the Cameroon border where they originated.

What impeded further expansion? A similar question could be said about Afrasian which expanded into Asia only until Mespotamia but impeded by the Zagros mountains of Iran, the Caucasus and Turkey.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her, in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

quote:

---

But as for the Bantu expansions, exactly what was the limit to their expansion?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:


Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her,

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.

---

quote:

---

rasol:

1) Egypt is reassigned to the 'middle east'.
2) Africans [Blacks] are re-assigned to Nubia.
3) Anything "Nubian" of historical value is then re-assigned to Egypt [the middle east].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
[QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!

---

Evergreen Writes:

P of P, the concept that Asians, Africans and New World people lacked agency prior to European global hegemony is suspect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

[QUOTE]That is true, but you have to remember that there was no globalisation in the past which is so prevalent today!

---

Evergreen Writes:

P of P, the concept that Asians, Africans and New World people lacked agency prior to European global hegemony is suspect.

---

Well that depends entirely on how you see globalisation and the modern world. As you and I are both aware that everyone has played a role in bringing about the modern world.


Technological advancements is the main reason: why people are able to travel to any parts of the world in short amounts of time, learn languages, interact with other cultures, and live next to other cultures in a mixed "ethnic diverse" society.

Was all of this commonplace in the past?

---

quote:

---

Supercar:
BTW, have you ever been to Egypt? Your comment suggests that you haven't

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

Are you sure she's Egyptian? i've never seen any Egyptian that looks like her, in any case her type must be very rare, i doubt she represents any significant group in that area.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
[QUOTE]Well that depends entirely on how you see globalisation ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Supercar:
BTW, have you ever been to Egypt? Your comment suggests that you haven't

---

I've been in Egypt twice, My aunt has lived in cairo since before I was even born, the last time I was there I was only 11 years old, but still that doesn't make me less knowlegable of how modern Egyptians look like, and i can tell you the woman above is very rare in the Egyptian population, there is no way around that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:
If you seriously believe this woman has a phenotype that makes a significant part of the Egyptian population, then that's up to you, whatever rocks your boat man.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hikuptah:

Yonis i completely understand what u are saying and u are right the majority of Egyptians do not look like her i dont know why anyone would disagree with what u are saying.

---

quote:

---

Hikuptah:

But there are a few egyptians with those features i can not tell u that there are none but u are right its a very small amount.

---

Can you quantify "small amount", and what you base it on; as you might be aware Yonis claims that Egyptians with that woman's phenotype are "rare", even though he is looking at an Egyptian as he says this. Maybe you'll rise to the occasion of being objective, and provide answers to the outstanding questions.

Also...

How does this "small amount", that you'll soon substantiate, make one an Egyptian or not an Egyptian. In fact, what phenotype is considered "Egyptian" and what isn't?
 

---

Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
I don't think Djehuti was using that women as the streotypical modern Egyptian but to point out that phenotype exists. She is actually a Nubian but technically she is Egyptian. I don't really consider the Nubians seperate from most southern Egyptians except they are slightly darker but sometimes even lighter than a southern Egyptian.


You have to resember that southern Egypt is only about %30 of the total population in Egypt and that most Egyptians live in the Delta region. You will still find some people that might have her features but just a lighter complexion in the Delta.

Here is a fallah from the Delta:

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001974/Rubin/Rubin06/Rubin01s.jpg
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hikuptah:
Yonis i completely understand what u are saying and u are right the majority of Egyptians do not look like her i dont know why anyone would disagree with what u are saying. But there are a few egyptians with those features i can not tell u that there are none but u are right its a very small amount.

---

quote:

---

Supercar:
you would have answered my question pertaining to the basis on which you made your 'bio-anthropological' assessment. "Answering questions, addressing specifics, and being objective, is what "rocks my boat".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I don't think Djehuti was using that women as the streotypical modern Egyptian but to point out that phenotype exists. She is actually a Nubian but technically she is Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Here is a fallah from the Delta:

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001974/Rubin/Rubin06/Rubin01s.jpg

---

quote:

---

Are you basing this on phenotype alone, or some other factors are at play here?

---

quote:

---

"Stereotypically" Egyptians are equated with "Arabs" from southwest Asia in the U.S. and perhaps Europe, and may well face the same reactive 'geopolitical' attitudes afforded to folks from those regions, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality on the ground.

---

quote:

---

Hence, it is necessary to rely on objectivity than such 'subjective' assessments. "Nubia" as a geopolitical construct has never actually existed in history or prehistory, save for that implanted in the Eurocentric mind

---

quote:

---

As to the question of being Egyptians, the so-called Nubians too are and have been as Egyptian as any other, and perhaps even more so than many of the descendants of foreign immigrants in the northern portions of the country

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Supercar:
you would have answered my question pertaining to the basis on which you made your 'bio-anthropological' assessment. "Answering questions, addressing specifics, and being objective, is what "rocks my boat".

---

You know i'm not an "anthropologist", "geneticist", "archeologist", "statician", so why are you expecting me to deliver such answers to the questions you ask?

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

You only do this because cowardly you try to give me a task you know i can't meet!

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

I can tell you i don't know the percentage of the different phenotypes of Egypt or the distribution among the population when it comes to looks, be it brown, light brown, yellow or blue black people:

---

Then how do you know that the phenotype exemplified in the person of the aforementioned image, is 'rare', if you are clueless about the 'percentage of different phenotypes of Egypt or the distribution among the population'? Again, you are diving into an arena that you are not competent enough to engage in. But let me guess: my questioning you here, makes me a 'coward', but your 'running away' from answering them, makes you real gutsy.

quote:

---

Yonis:

And for facial morphology, i don't know how many egyptians have broad or narrow faces.

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

But what i know is that the lady above "does not represent a significant group in Egypt" she belongs to a minority, and i don't need a "peer reviewd" paper to understand that, that's just the way it is.

---

That is what you "know", but what you don't 'know', is what basis that you made it on. Quite intelligent of you, Yonis.

quote:

---

Yonis:

Maybe you could take the difficult task to prove that this lady's look does not belong to a non-significant group in Egypt.

---

...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian. What more proof do I need than that. However, feel free to become 'cowardly' enough to answer the outstanding questions anytime soon, if you will.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

Are you basing this on phenotype alone, or some other factors are at play here?

---

No, I am basing it upon where the supposed picture originates which is from a website about Nubians and the Aswan dam. She could very well be an Aswani because lots of Aswani Egyptians look like her. Her attire does look different than the typical dress worn throughout Egypt also.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

"Stereotypically" Egyptians are equated with "Arabs" from southwest Asia in the U.S. and perhaps Europe, and may well face the same reactive 'geopolitical' attitudes afforded to folks from those regions, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the scientific reality on the ground.

---

I understand that but I don't really care what the Western world or U.S. thinks of modern Egyptians. As an Egyptian myself[a rural one at that] I choice to identify myself by my own means instead of Western perceptions.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

Hence, it is necessary to rely on objectivity than such 'subjective' assessments. "Nubia" as a geopolitical construct has never actually existed in history or prehistory, save for that implanted in the Eurocentric mind

---

I realize this but I am using Nubian in the modern sense and as away to identify people south of Aswan in Egypt. Maybe I should be more specific and refer to ''Nubian'' groups as their ethnic designation.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

As to the question of being Egyptians, the so-called Nubians too are and have been as Egyptian as any other, and perhaps even more so than many of the descendants of foreign immigrants in the northern portions of the country

---

I agree with this except most ''Nubians'' within Egypt see themselves as seperate culturally,linguistically and even socially from most Egyptians with the exception of some Sa3eedi. Nubians choice to intermarry and live amongst their own group and prefer to assimilate into modern Egyptian society but keep their own idenity seperate from most Egyptians. I am simply reflecting on how Nubians see themselves. Certainly they are Egyptians but would consider themselves unique from most Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Supercar:
If you are capable of reading, you would have realized that I've already given the reasoning for my question. You made a 'bio-anthropological' assessment, and you were called on it. So the real question is, why do you make such assessments, when you know you aren't qualified to do so or suited for the task of doing so?

---

Seriously are you trying to tell me this woman represents a significant group in Egypt?

quote:

---

...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Supercar:
If you are capable of reading, you would have realized that I've already given the reasoning for my question. You made a 'bio-anthropological' assessment, and you were called on it. So the real question is, why do you make such assessments, when you know you aren't qualified to do so or suited for the task of doing so?

---

Seriously are you trying to tell me this woman represents a significant group in Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

quote:

---

...like a scenario, whereby if you made the claim that 'pigs can fly', that I'm supposed to prove it wrong? Simple then; the individual in the posted picture is an Egyptian.

---

My claim is not such preposterous as "flyin pigs" but nice try though

---

Thanks for the compliment, though there really wasn't much to 'try' about. It was simple enough, to show that your claim is that 'preposterous', because evidently, you have no idea what it is based on. To say that it is perhaps not even more preposterous than the "pigs can fly" claim, is an understatement.

quote:

---

Yonis:

I take it as a sign you can't challenge your own challenge.

---

quote:

---

Yonis:

btw i never claimed the individual (above woman) was not Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

Yonis:
But please continue to protect your ego, despite the futility in this particular issue.

---

Well yonis, this was about your "statement"; however, that you've chosen to make it about "me", by personally attacking me, speaks volumes about your mental stability. I suggest you seek to resolve that problem, before trying to see if you can "psycho-analyze" people from behind your computer screen.

Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

quote:

---

Supercar:
Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.

---

Are you OK??
Trust me i'm Yonis, there is no stalker behind my nick who tries to 'pycho-analyzing' you or anyone for that matter, through the internet. I'm starting to get worried about you Supercar. Please share with us, who is this "e-coward" you seem to worry about? Is someone stalking you??
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Supercar:
Though not necessarily pertaining to you, this is the same sort of thing that a certain notorious e-coward does, playing the game of 'pycho-analyzing' others in his own image from sitting at a safe distance behind his crude computer screen, thinking that other people have the same state of mind, i.e. one of sheer gutlessness.

---

Are you OK??

---

Yes, thank you , but are you?

quote:

---

Yonis:

Trust me i'm Yonis, there is no stalker behind my nick who tries to 'pycho-analyzing' you or anyone for that matter, through the internet. I'm starting to get worried about you Supercar. Please share with us, who is this "e-coward" you seem to worry about? Is someone stalking you??

---

Calm down man, can't you read? I've already made it known that it doesn't particularly pertain to you; I only mentioned it, because your behavior reminded me of some poster here...and if you are that person, then surely you'd know what I'm talking about. If you don't know, then no need to stress yourself over the remark, because then it doesn't pertain to you.

Now, let's get back to the point of you answering that simple question I asked earlier; how about it?!
 

---

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 
I bet my left foot he's referring to me .
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Suffice to say, I understand what Supercar is trying to say. Egyptians are diverse and many Egyptians have phenotypes that look similar to that girls, even in complexion. Using modern Northern Egyptians in general as being the MORE indigenous to the Nile valley than the girl in the photo is NONSENSE.

Firstly, as has been said here by many on many occasions, the North was not always the center of population and culture in Egypt. Modern Egypt with its focus of culture, power and people is just the OPPOSITE of ancient Egypt. In ancient dynastic Egypt the centers of power, culture and population originated in the SOUTH and were focused there. It was only during the invasions of the Greeks and Romans that the North was made the imperial capital and the Arabs were to create Cairo for their capital city. All of which are purely foreign creations to serve the purpose of FOREIGN control over the native population. THEREFORE, the MODERN concept of Nubian in Egypt is akin to the difference between American Indians and other Americans. One group identifies with the ancient INDIGENOUS culture and people prior to the invasion of foreigners, the other identifies mainly with the modern foreign derived culture and population. Nubian in that sense is also a synonym for ancient Egyptian as the ABORIGINAL culture and population of the Nile prior to foreign conquest. Especially when you consider that Egyptian culture arose in what is now called the Nubian areas of Egypt. Therefore, the girl in the photo is MORE indigenous to the Nile than those partly descended from foreigners who migrated to Egypt within the last 2,000 years. Nevertheless, 2,000 years is a long time and allows even those who are derived from foreign migration to claim to be "indigenous". Compare that with American history, where European Americans can only claim 4-500 years of European presence in America and only 300 years of a European state. Yet in that SAME time frame the inigenous population of the Americas was almost COMPLETELY wiped out and replaced with a European derived population. So, are Indians LESS American than European Americans?
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Suffice to say, I understand what Supercar is trying to say. Egyptians are diverse and many Egyptians have phenotypes that look similar to that girls, even in complexion...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Today, The furtherst Bantu presence north is southern Somalia, southern Ethiopia, Southern Sudan etc. And limited in Central Africa by the Ubangi river and of course there are still Bantu languages left in the Cameroon border where they originated.

---

quote:

---

Where was this picture "originally" posted? I know where "I" got it from, because I was the one who originally posted it here

---

quote:

---

That would be welcome; it would enhance the understanding of folks like moi, who also have a cautious appraoch to the term "Nubian"

---

quote:

---

So do the so-called "Afrangi" towards the "Fellahs". The self-indentified "Arab" elite populations of the northern regions of the country, don't exactly equate themselves with some groups from rural areas in Upper Egypt. In that respect, I think it is safe to suggest that they 'consider themselves unique' from those Egyptians

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hikuptah:

We all know that Egyptians are Diverse

---

quote:

---

Hikuptah:

but the lady in the picture is a Nubian and as Ausar said Nubians separate themselves and dont really associate with Egyptians im From Aswan and there are alot of Nubians but they really dont mix with saeedi egyptians

---

quote:

---

Hikuptah:

and tend to be separate from egyptians culturally socially & lingustically they are different.

---

quote:

---

Hikuptah:

Not all Egyptians are Nubians and Not all Egyptians are Beja & Nubians are not Saeedi and Saeedi are not Nubians.

---

quote:

---

Hikuptah:

Supercar why dont u say Saeedis and Beja are the same people when u know they are not Most Modern Egyptians look nothing like Beja or Nubians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

Where was this picture "originally" posted? I know where "I" got it from, because I was the one who originally posted it here

---

Yes, the picture is from an website you posted about Nubians and the Aswan dam. Understand, I understand your point about the picture of the women and agree that there are Egyptians that look like her. I also emphasized that I consider Nubians Egyptians also and we do have a shared culture but Nubians have a unique idenity of their own.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Supercar wrote:

quote:

---

That would be welcome; it would enhance the understanding of folks like moi, who also have a cautious appraoch to the term "Nubian"

---

The problem is I don't know what ''Nubian'' ethnic group she belongs to wheater its Kenuzi,Nobiin,Dongolan,Fadija. Some of these words like Fadija is simply a Nubian word for farmer.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

quote:

---

So do the so-called "Afrangi" towards the "Fellahs". The self-indentified "Arab" elite populations of the northern regions of the country, don't exactly equate themselves with some groups from rural areas in Upper Egypt. In that respect, I think it is safe to suggest that they 'consider themselves unique' from those Egyptians

---

This is actually quite more complex than I intially stated because you also have Fallahin in both the Delta and in southern Egypt.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Fallahin that migrate into the city live in certain sections people know as balady.

Lots of the Afrangi[an Arabic word meaning a Frank but generally applied to most Westeners] have Egyptian origins but have mixed heavily with Turkish or Westeners. Some are of completely Turkish origin. They look down on traditional ''baladi'',fellah,and Sa3eedi culture and love Western culture.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Then again some Fallahin in the Delta have non-Egyptian ancestry mixed in but still identify with the traditional culture.

The traditional elite in Egypt do look down upon Fallahin,Baladi and Sa3eedis.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Just to note the singular is Fallah or plural Fallahin.

---

quote:

---

ausar:

Know the Fallahin view their existence as their village and consider most people outside their villages to be foreign. Most would not understand this unless you are a Fallah yourself. They really are attached to their village existence.

---

quote:

---

On average they have broader features than Somalis,Beja and people from the Horn of Africa. Also they tend to have more tightly curled hair.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
The Egyptians were most likely related to Cushetics, but also highly mixed with the nubians due to intermarriage through out the dynasty' as it has been proved on this thread time and time again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
^^^ The nubian people in general have broader features as compared to Cushetics of the horn.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:
The Egyptians were most likely related to Cushetics, but also highly mixed with the nubians due to intermarriage through out the dynasty' as it has been proved on this thread time and time again.

---

Evergreen Writes:

Actually this HAS NOT been proven. What HAS been poven is that the Ancient Egyptians derived from people from the Horn of Africa and the Sahara to a great extent. The people of the Sahara had affinities with other Africans with broader features. We should also bear in mind that the people from the Horn of Africa have diverse features from Somalians to those we see in the Omo Valley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

Correct, the horn is inhabated by diverse African groups.

Ancient Egypt was most likely just a mixture of these groups which have been diluted by eurasion ancestory of recent (ie, Turkish, Arab etc etc)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

Correct, the horn is inhabated by diverse African groups.

Ancient Egypt was most likely just a mixture of these groups which have been diluted by eurasion ancestory of recent (ie, Turkish, Arab etc etc)

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I take it that your are not zoning out the fact that the ancient Nile Valley was a complex 'mixture' of both Saharan elements and populations who were living up the Nile. If you are, what is your evidence to the contrary?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Prince_of_punt:

quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

I take it that your are not zoning out the fact that the ancient Nile Valley was a complex 'mixture' of both Saharan elements and populations who were living up the Nile. If you are, what is your evidence to the contrary?

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No this is what i was trying to imply in my post. But what I am trying to understand is:

Where the predynastic Egyptians from the horn (ie could the land of Punt been in the horn)?

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quote:

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Prince_of_punt:

This would mean that the ancients were a diverse mixture of subsaharan Africans.

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quote:

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Print_of_punt:

But was the horn as diverse as it is today (especially on the western edges of Ethiopia) in the past?

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quote:

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Prince_of_punt:

Who do the nubians (nilo-saharan speaking populations) cluster with in terms of genetics?

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quote:

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Prince_of_punt:

Modern Egyptians have a high percentage of E3b, thus suggesting a strong East African link.

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Modern Egyptian populations show genetic gradients, from significan E3b and J lineages, and to lesser extent, R and K lineages in the northern regions, to predominantly E3b and notable frequencies of E3a in Upper Egypt to Sudan.

Even northern Egyptian carry E3a, if I'm not mistaken according to the familiar Luis et al. map. But this is quite small generally speaking, and in comparison to that in upper Egypt.



Please be reminded that, "northern" Egyptian samples is what you see in this map, not those from middle to upper Egypt!

quote:

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Prince_of_punt:

Could Punt actually be considered for places like Central Africa excluding Eurasia (ie setting info from sources)

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Punt has clues that it probably covered a region south of Egypt, that included a yet to be determined portion of eastern Africa [e.g. the African Horn and Sudan], and perhaps central Africa. It likely transcended the borders of modern contemporary nation states in the region. We've already covered these points in other threads dedicated to the respective subjects.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Why does everyone separate Sudan from the Horn of AFrica Sudan is part of the Horn of AFrica

Horn of AFrica
Sudan
ERitrea
Ethiopia
Somalia
Djbouti

Every Map u see of the Horn of AFric includes Sudan even Sudan.net and even the Sudanese government ran television Al-Sudani places Sudan as part of the Horn of Africa.
 

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Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
Do you know why it's called Horn of Africa? The name horn of Africa refers to the geographical shape. Sudan is north-eastern Africa and not the horn!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
I've also thought about this, sometimes in some maps i see sudan belonging to horn of africa, like this one below, and sometimes not

I onced raised this issue with a sudanese on another forum and he personally didn't consider sudan to be part of the horn, thereafter i also didn't consider sudan as part of the horn of africa.

quote:

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The name horn of Africa refers to the geographical shape.

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in that case eritrea shouldn't be part of the horn either, in fact only somalia lies on the geoghraphical horn shape, not even Djibouti.

btw nice pic on the diversity of the horn of africa.

 

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Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yonis:
I've also thought about this, sometimes in some maps i see sudan belonging to horn of africa,

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Actually the horn will more often include Northern Kenya than Sudan:


However most typically it references...



Probably Sudan is not included because it is separated by geography - Ethiopian Highlands - Nile Valley - from Somalia proper. In constrast the distinction between Kenya and Somalia is primarily political and not due to signficant geographical features.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Wow, I didn't know that one picture I posted of the Egyptian woman I posted could stir things up...

Then again, this is Egyptsearch!

Here are some pictures of elite people from dynastic Egypt who share the same features as that woman. (ps. some of these people are from as far north as northern Egypt):








 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Sudan is part of the Horn of Africa even the Sudanese government ran media outlets say Sudan is part of the Horn of Africa.

I have seen many maps showing Sudan as part of the Horn of Africa.

U tell me why all these websites have Sudan as Part of the Horn of AFrica. Even the sudantribune says Sudan is the Horn of AFrica should i believe u all or should i believe the Sudanese Government.


http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/region/hornofafrica.
html

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.

http://www.sudantribune.com/article_impr.php3?id_article=6936
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
Rationally and geographically, the nation state of Sudan doesn't lie in the African Horn. "Clearly" a portion of Ethiopia and Somalia lie in that "horn" structure, and to a lesser extent, Djibouti and Kenya [if not the northern portions of Kenya].
 

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Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
If we are talking about geoghraphy then Eritrea should definetly not be part of "the horn of africa", and Ethiopia could be but its landlocked, i think "horn of africa" is more a political thing, coz otherwise somalia is the only (by geographic defenition) real horn of African country.
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yonis:
If we are talking about geoghraphy then Eritrea should definetly not be part of "the horn of africa", and Ethiopia could be but its landlocked, i think "horn of africa" is more a political thing, coz otherwise somalia is the only (by geographic defenition) real horn of African country.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hikuptah:

...U tell me why all these websites have Sudan as Part of the Horn of AFrica. Even the sudantribune says Sudan is the Horn of AFrica should i believe u all or should i believe the Sudanese Government.

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Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

Hey Djehuti, isn't there one picture, a Greek pottery painting or something, that shows Odyseeus or some other greek hero fighting Lower Egyptians, who are represented with typical "negro" features? get back to me..

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Yes, actually the pottery you are referring to depicts Heracles (Hercules) fighting and killing an Egyptian king named 'Busiris' and his priests. Practically all Greek depictions of Egyptians show them to stereotypically have broad features-- noses and lips, as well as curly hair or bald, and circumcised penises in the case of men.



You can see more Greco-Roman depictions of ancient North Africans here.
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Can we consider Eritrea Sudan Ethiopia Somalia and Djbouti as NorthEast AFricans then since the Horn of Africa then has been distorted from your point of view. Another thing alot of Modern Day Sudans borders are not at all correct for instance alot of the portion of Eastern Sudan really is part of Eritrea like Kassala, Homesh Koreb,Hasheba,Tenedba even by the names u can tell there Eritrean towns.
 

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Posted by Swahili (Member # 12430) on :
 
How is it really part of Eritrea?
 

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Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
 
Well i have lived in Kassala & Homesh Koreb for many years and the population is completely Eritreans from Tigre Beni Amir Beja Raishaida Tigrinia & Bilen Homesh Koreb is the strong hold of the Beja/Beni Amir. Not that far from HOmesh Koreb Tenedba is completely eritreans with the exception of a few Sudani Arab tribes. Alot of the borders of AFrica were demarcated with Error.
 

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Posted by brook (Member # 12463) on :
 


he's henock an ethiopian musician....



and this is tutankhamun. i knew henock the musician when he was younger i and at the time swear he looked like old king tuts they could be twins. anyways, i do believe that the horn of africa has a cushosemetic branch of the black family to which the original egyptians probably belonged to. There is such diversity. to southern egypt, ethiopia, somalia, eritrea, sudan, djibouti, and northern kenya i would add western yemen. i guess they would constitute one group of some degree of variance to which ancient egyptians would probably belong.
 

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Posted by G.O.D (Member # 11484) on :
 
_
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 
Henock is half Japanese, Brook.
 

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Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
LOL, Why is he posting half Japanese to represent Ethiopia?
 

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Posted by Africa (Member # 12142) on :
 

This is an idealized representation of Tut, in real life I doubt he looked exactly like that. The reason why I'm saying that is that it is common among some African groups to think that someone who has calf eyes(big eyes) and doesn't have a brachycephalic face is beautiful (I guess Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz would be out), I believe Egyptians and Ethiopians emphasize that in their art as well...I mean Upper Egyptian and Beja are the people who look the closest to AE, but they don't look as beautiful as the Egyptians depicted in mural paintings. It's just art...
plan2replan Copyright © 2006 Africa
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^Of course most Egyptian art was ideal, but then again so was all ancient art, especially the Greeks!

Does this mean that Greek people did not share the same features as their 'Classical' sculpture??

quote:

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Originally posted by Africa:

it is common among some African groups to think that someone who has calf eyes(big eyes) and doesn't have a brachycephalic face is beautiful (I guess Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz would be out), I believe Egyptians and Ethiopians emphasize that in their art as well...

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That's strange considering that I've seen just as much artwork showing the opposite features. (btw, what is meant by "brachycephalic" face, since brachycephalic is in reference to the dome of the skull? )

Also, most Egyptian art shows people with almond eyes (both large and almond eyes are common among Africans)

Also, the famous golden death mask may look somewhat different from his authentic bust due to color. The overall golden color of the mask as well as the khol outline of the eyes give Tut a somewhat different appearance from his true brown appearance without eye-makeup...

quote:

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I mean Upper Egyptian and Beja are the people who look the closest to AE, but they don't look as beautiful as the Egyptians depicted in mural paintings.

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Well how many Upper Egyptians and Beja have you seen??

I have seen plenty that share at least one or two of the same features from ideal artwork. A few with all the features.

Some with the "calf-eyes" you speak of while others with the common almond shaped eyes.

Here is an Oromo girl who bears a striking resemblance to girls in Egyptian art:

quote:

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It's just art...

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Well perhaps you need Lessons in Egyptian art.
 

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Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 
^^That girl isn't Oromo, she's "Amhara" (a native Amharic speaker), I believe. I've seen her labeled as Tigray as well, but her hairstyle (you can see it well in the non-cropped picture) isn't the Tigray kind.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Thanks for the info Yom. I got the picture from Wally's site where she is labeled as 'Oromo'.

But anway my main point was to show that (again) Africa is wrong and that while Egyptian art was indeed ideal it was not limited to one set of features alone.
 

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Posted by brook (Member # 12463) on :
 
well, regardless, simply put why argue the obvious....their hyroglyphs and statues resemble the peoples of north east africa as they are today. why would they misrepresent themesleves? is the world so friggin starved for racial glory that they will not concede even to the obvious?




 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^LOL Brook, you got those pictures from the book Tutankhamun and His Treasures! I scanned the same pictures from that book.

But you are correct, that the people who continue to deny what Tut and his people really looked liked and try to come up with nonense like this...



^which even then at best only ends up looking 'mixed' has serious issues.
 

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Posted by AMR1 (Member # 7651) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^As far as "Children of Egypt" goes, the Fellahin Saeedi should be at the top of the list because they are the direct descendants of Pharaonic Egypt with the least admixture. Although believe it or not there are Fellahin Baladi (northern/Delta) who are not that affected by foreign mixture also and still retain their African looks. So really Fellahin in general should be number 1, followed by the Beja who closer in relation and speak an Afrasian language closest to Egyptian, followed by the Nubians who have shared the Nile Valley.

The others I would not consider 'Children of Egypt' since they are all from the Horn but more like 'Brothers of Egypt'.

But I get your point.

But for humor:

Egyptian..........................Somali

Nefertiti............................Iman

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quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:

That picture of Nefertiti you have posted here is a forgery. Nefertiti did not look like that. But where are the moderators here to reject such forgeries in a supposedly respectable site.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^LOL Brook, you got those pictures from the book Tutankhamun and His Treasures! I scanned the same pictures from that book.

But you are correct, that the people who continue to deny what Tut and his people really looked liked and try to come up with nonense like this...



^which even then at best only ends up looking 'mixed' has serious issues.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:



That picture of Nefertiti you have posted here is a forgery. Nefertiti did not look like that. But where are the moderators here to reject such forgeries in a supposedly respectable site.

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No! That picture of Nefertiti above is a modern reconstruction created by scientists from the mummy believed to be Nefertiti. They aren't sure if the mummy is really her, but certain features do seem consistent with her ancient depictions which are varied and not just the famous bust that you only know of.

Other depictions of Nefertiti:









Moving on...
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:



Actually it (the Tut reconstruction) ends up looking like the sculptor who made it. I have seen a photo of the French sculptor working on the piece and you can see more of HER in the bust than King Tut.

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*sigh*

This was the case with the Japanese reconstruction of the Egyptian mummy.

And can be explained in the situation that happened to the African computer genius Emeagwali:

Twelve years ago, a magazine hired a white man to prepare an illustration of a supercomputer wizard riding an ox. I was supposed to be the supercomputer wizard. But the white illustrator, who knew that I am black, portrayed me as a white person in his published illustration.

I learned that the white illustrator was searching for himself in me.



The first draft of a portrait that depicted Emeagwali as a supercomputer wizard driving a carriage powered by thousands of chickens (a metaphor for his 65,000 weak processors that performed the world's fastest computation). The "Negro Emeagwali" (shown in this illustration) was rejected and replaced with a "Caucasian Emeagwali" (shown below).



A pity people can be blinded by their biases to the point of delusions.
 

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Posted by Prince_of_punt (Member # 9845) on :
 
They seem to have made her lips smaller in the reconstruction, whereas they were bigger in her own depictions when she was alive.

So in essence they are still trying to make her look more European.

Amr1 I guess you were right the picture is kinda misleading, as she most likely looked even blacker than that!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^LOL. The lips in the reconstruction look about the same size as her depictions to me.
 

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Posted by Africa (Member # 12142) on :
 
Djehuti,
Read my post again...and then come back. The main point of my post is to emphasize the idea of art and certain physical traits that are admired and idealised in certain African societies including AE. But in reality things are different. As an example, on the street most people don't look like top models in America. That's my point, there are good chances that in paintings and other art forms Tut physical appearance is exaggerated, to conform to indigenous beauty standards. It's the same in many other cultures.

plan2replan Copyright © 2006 Africa
 

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Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :
 
Uh, djehuti that japanese reconstruction looks "Black" to me...
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^You're joking right? The Japanese reconstruction looks less black than that Ethiopian guy Henock! LOL
 

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Posted by Ade (Member # 6309) on :
 
I wonder what percentage of Egyptians looked like Narmer/Menes 5,000 years ago.


 

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Posted by trueblkking (Member # 11936) on :
 
They look like black people, there said and done.
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 
Race types depicted by egyptians


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Myra, please tell me you're joking.

First off, the fallacy of racial typology has already been explained ad-nasium in this forum as it is...

But to repeat the racial typology of Marc Washington of all people is just too ridiculous.

Egyptians can range from looking like that Kushite man to somewhat lighter appearance and have nothing to do with Maasai or that guy with the dreads. And Assyrians did NOT look like Europeans let alone George Bush!
 

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Posted by Miss Socotra (Member # 12544) on :
 
This people
 

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Posted by yarta (Member # 12371) on :
 
Nice picture, but i guess Careweelo forgot to comb her hair
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Myra great poster.


.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Yeah, hilarious Marc Washington's picture of Syrians who look like George Bush. LMAO
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
 
Well Jehuti,

In the Islamic world, many Syrians would be considered "white". I am not necessarily saying that they are white, I am just saying that it isn't necessarily wrong to have George Bush as a modern represenation of ancient Syria.......but then again there were Black people in the ancient Syrian past, just like today........nothing new under the sun....lol. Salaam
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
Interesting. What are you going by, to suggest that 'George Bush' could be a 'modern' representation of 'ancient Syrians'? Could 'modern' Syrians be representation of 'ancient Syrian' populations?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Indeed, last time I checked not even modern (supposedly lighter) Syrians look like George Bush, let alone those depicted in ancient murals. Although the Indo-European speaking Mitanni were portrayed as white. Even so, these were not Syrians.
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
 
Well,

I kinda don't like this topic. But nonetheless.......

A friend of mine years back was Syrian. I couldn't help but think that if this dude wasn't Arab that he would be considered the same as any other white American...........

He claimed to be a descendent of Muhammad. Yet, one day he tried to claim he was white, and I told him that he wasn't white, that he was Semitic...........

I wouldn't say he was white, but in the Arabian context, he definitely would be. But I have another Arab friend who is almost the same(almost white looking) like my Syrian friend. But her father is a brown-colored Palestianian...........

What am I trying to say???...........Well, according to Diop, in Ramessess III depiction of the various races, one of them was Indo-European. If so, then Bush would qualify to represent that light-skinned person, know what I mean? If that artistic depiction was Syrian, well, there probably are some people of Indo-European descent in Syria(just like in India). Hence, I am not against the equivalency of George Bush in comparison to the Indo-European above, even if it is Syrian......


BTW, there were, and are Syrians who are Black, just as the original populations of India are Black...........feel me? Salaam
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
^So you are going by phenotype on the account of language family affiliation?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Indeed, 'Semitic' is a language group or affilitiation so it should not be taken as a reference to phenotype.

On the other hand it should be made clear that Syria has recieved influxes of immigrants even 'white' ones from Mitanni, peoples from the Caucasus, Europeans, etc.

This is why many peoples especially from northern Syria might even have light hair and eyes.
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
It seems that Israel is justifying the "George Bush" candidacy based on "Indo-European" language family. Syrians are of course, not even Indo-European speakers.
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
 
Not exactly. I am just saying that one "could" say that many Syrians are "white" people. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just stating my experience with dealing with some people from that culture. Remember that I said that Black people have been(and still are) a part of Syrian culture........

Hence, all I am saying is that it isn't necessarily inaccurate to portray George Bush as a representative of an ancient "Syriac" man, understand? I am open to the possibility of its accuracy(or inaccuracy). Salaam
 

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Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Israel:

Not exactly. I am just saying that one "could" say that many Syrians are "white" people. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just stating my experience with dealing with some people from that culture. Remember that I said that Black people have been(and still are) a part of Syrian culture........

Hence, all I am saying is that it isn't necessarily inaccurate to portray George Bush as a representative of an ancient "Syriac" man, understand? I am open to the possibility of its accuracy(or inaccuracy). Salaam

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Modern Syrians are indeed of varyng complexions
but the ancient Syrians were classed among the
non-white peoples by Greco-Latin writers, so
much so that they saw it necessary to note the
existance of Leuko-Syrians

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quote:

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Leucosyri, to distinguish them from the people from beyond Taurus, which bear also the name of Syrians, but who, compared to the cistauric populations, are to have the dye browned by the heat of the sun, while those do not have it, difference which gave place to the denomination of Leucosyri.

Strabo
Geography 12:3:9

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quote:

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... the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."


Strabo
Geography 16:1:2

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quote:

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The Cha'ab Arabs, the
present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia, are nearly
black; and the "black Syrians," of whom Strabo speaks, seem intended to
represent the Babylonians.

George Rawlinson
The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 4

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quote:

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Sayce has identified the Hittites with the "White Syrians" of Strabo as contrasted with "the Black Syrians or Semitic Aramaeans, east of the Amanus"


Henry George Tomkins
Remarks on Mr. Flinders Petrie's Collection of Ethnographic Types from the Monuments of Egypt
The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 18.

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quote:

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LEUCOSYRI, the ancient name of the Syrians inhabiting Cappadocia, by which they were distinguished from the more southern Syrians, who were of a darker complexion.
(Herod. i.72, vii.72;
Strabo, xvi. p.737;
Pliny, H.N. vi.3;
Eustath. ad Dionys. 772,970.)


A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Volume II, Pages 171-172

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At the time of the appearance of the Greeks, the land between the rivers Halys and Iris belonged to the Leucosyrians, who were also called Cappadocians.

Lâtife Summerer
University of Munich, Germany

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... the term "Leucosyrian" (White-syrian) was not exclusive of Pontus, and so we could think that this word was used by the Greeks to name different autochtonous peoples of Anatolia. Furthermore, our sources do not make clear if those Leucosyrians can be identified with those peoples who are called Cappadocians in a general sense: in fact, Strabo describes the Cappadocians of Pontus as descendants from former Scythian migrations. Solinus, probably quoting Plinius, tells that the Eastern part of Cappadocia (I think that he is alluding to Pontic Cappadocia) is situated in Scythia. Strabo said also that the wall of Zela was built to defend the place from the Scythian invaders. And finally, in a general sense, we must regard that the Euxinus was consered as an Scythian sea.

Luis Ballesteros-Pastor
(Universidad de Sevilla)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^I'm somewhat confused by your answer Takruri.

You say "far" Northeast African/Southwest Asian. So which is it? You also say Northeast Africans of the J NRY variety. But isn't J indigenous to Southwest Asia?

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Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
 
^^Very persuasive argument for far NE Africa al Tuk

I vote for far NE Africa, though might still use tge term south-west Asia.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL I get what you mean now Takruri! Radical indeed, though not at all unjustified.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I wonder why the assumptions associated with Leuk Aethiopes
are never put forward to explain Leuk Syrians as regards their
complexion, cultural ethnicity, and race?


Naaa, not really.
 

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