quote:Hard data counts, but WHY? What difference does it make?
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Actually it is quite relevant to set the record straight
where tropical African peoples are concerned, and correct the
distortions that so often seek to slight the heritage
and legacy
of said peoples. These ancients were rooted in the Sahara
and the Sudan. They are the true sons of the soil of
the Nile Valley.
Has nothing to do with "feelings." Hard data is what counts.
quote:you mistake progress for advancement. What we have now is nothing more or less than shiny barbarism. A concept I do not expect you to understand. In all this technical progress, they still can not replicate a pyramid on the scale and precision of the great pyramid with modern technology. They still do not have a theory that outlines string theory on the level the Dogon have outlined it. Also, there has been scientific evidence that shows electricity wasn't a foreign concept to the ancients.
Originally posted by the lioness:
typeZeiss, we are now living in a world that has electrical appliances, we are here thousands of miles apart communicating on computers over satellite links. We have cars, airplanes, central heating, refrigeration, electric lights, heart transplants, cell phones, power tools, television, trains, submarines, cameras moon landings,
and unlike in ancient times most people are not farmers or hunters
The Greeks, the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Incas all the ancient people did not have anything remotely comparable to modern civilization so what happened in ancient times is interesting but doesn't matter. Either you have the engineering skills to design solar electrical cells or a helicopter or you don't
quote:*lol* oh
Originally posted by the lioness:
nothing can compare in decadance to the Egyptian Kings.
The Kings had their whole society primarily focused on building huge sculptures of themsleves and giant useless tombs called pyramids for them to bury themselves in with their jewels and gold stolen from Kush.
The Egyptian Pharoahs invented decadent imperialism
quote:wouldn't it be a fruitless undertaking though? you change it, then some idiot comes and changes it again etc. etc.? Where will it end?
Originally posted by astenb:
Anyone here want to work on editing wikipedia pages?
quote:Well you can always find out.
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:wouldn't it be a fruitless undertaking though? you change it, then some idiot comes and changes it again etc. etc.? Where will it end?
Originally posted by astenb:
Anyone here want to work on editing wikipedia pages?
quote:It is not fruitless. You simply have to overwhelm them with consistent verifiable sources, stay on topic and flag unverifiable, POV and purely weasel worded nonsense. Unfortunately most of the problem comes from folks semi-protecting articles which cuts both ways. It keeps out nonsense but makes editing a nightmare in many cases. The examples you pointed out earlier can be easily rectified with proper flags. In other words, call them on their bull sh*t.
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:wouldn't it be a fruitless undertaking though? you change it, then some idiot comes and changes it again etc. etc.? Where will it end?
Originally posted by astenb:
Anyone here want to work on editing wikipedia pages?
quote:As long as you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that some mythical Semitic people mixed in with the Africans in the area then sure, contribute. Other wise keep the wiki fantasy free.
Originally posted by the lioness:
can I help out with the wiki editing?
I come from the perspective that Egypt may have been multi-ethnic, from the earliest period possibly having input from all the surrounding areas. I'm not sure if this is racist or not
or I should go wit the racial purity thing?
quote:Well one thing I started to do instead of searching for general terms is search for the type of results I am looking for : add "Abstracts" to the search string. That way we can pull up some published sources instead of links that take us Back here, to some Euroclown website, or to Wikipedia.
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
^^
Any suggestions on good places to find this data? (besides telling me google that is)
quote:This journal is new to me even if its since 1988.
Sahara is an international, yearly journal. Its aim is to spread information and opinions concerning the prehistory and history of the Sahara, the Sahel, and neighbouring regions. It was founded in 1988 with the purpose of acting as a link between scholars and experts of all countries.
Sahara deals mainly with archaeology, anthropology, desert environment, prehistoric rock art, ancient history, pre-Islamic monuments, ancient writings, archaeozoology, geology...
quote:Unfortunately that is the price to pay when having an encyclopedia accessable to editing by laymen.
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I don't recall Keita 2008 even using any sub-Saharan populations other than the Somalis. This is why I don't trust Wikipedia on any controversial issues.
quote:You have mail.
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
^^
Any suggestions on good places to find this data? (besides telling me google that is)
quote:Well, I spoke / had a discussion with somebody a while ago on YouTube. And he insisted on, me posting sources, on Wiki. I told him that it isn't reliable. During that discussion I did post references to the sources. As rebuttal he gave the ussually rants, by the so-called Hamitic forum and such.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Unfortunately that is the price to pay when having an encyclopedia accessable to editing by laymen.
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I don't recall Keita 2008 even using any sub-Saharan populations other than the Somalis. This is why I don't trust Wikipedia on any controversial issues.
I hate suggest any conspiracies, but I can't help but notice that these editors seem well versed in all these sources which we discuss here on Egyptsearch all the time. Who wants to bet the editors are trolls from either here or the biodiversity b.s. site.
quote:
"In Europe, where animal-drawn plows were used to farm rich land, intensive agriculture made monogamy important… In these places, men did much of the agricultural work …
In much of Africa, by contrast, farming was done by handheld hoes used to work small plots of land that were often rather infertile. Women were widely used to do the hoeing and carry in the produce.
Many husbands found that they could use extra wives to wield even more hoes, and so marrying several women made sense economically… the conditions they describe may have had important consequences for the kinds of families that had to endure the travails of slavery in the Western Hemisphere."
quote:--Women's work in rural China: change and continuity in an era of reform. Tamara Jacka. 1997
"where machinery was used it was monopolised by men, and that this frequently made nonsense of the supposed distinction between 'heavy' men's work and 'light' women's work. For example, in one instance, Wolf's assistant came across three people working the fields. One was a man whose task it was to turn the switch to a water pump on and off. As a technician, he earned 10.5 work-points a day. The other two were women in their thirties 'wh were rushing back and forth ditching and damming to keep the water moving evenly through the fields. although the evening was cool, they were sweating with the effort it took to move the heavy waterlogged earth onto the banks of the ditches. They were unskilled workers and earned 6.5 workpoints for their day's labor'. Other reports suggest that through the 1980s and 1990s, in villages in which agricukture continued to be collectively managed, divisions of labour and inequalities in remuneration, such as those cited by Wolf, persisted.. Observing the situation at the chicken farm, however, the researcher felt that the women's work was far from beibg lighter than the men's. Men were responsible for carrying bags of feed on their shoulders, and for using a crushing machine to break up the feed. Meanwhile, it was the women's task to mix the feed and give it to the chickens and collect the eggs. Each day each woman had to collect 1,680 eggs, a task which the researcher estimated woud involve them bending down some 280 times a day."
quote:--D. Kirkland. 2008. Mormons and Muslims: A Case of Matching Fingerprints
:
"After death, while their husbands are creating and ruling
over planets, the women have the questionable honor of bearing
his "spirit children" for eternity. These spirit children
descend to their father's planet to inhabit bodies as mortals,
who are then ruled over by him. Mormon Doctrine states that
these celestially married men and women will live eternally
in the family unit and have spirit children, theus becoming
Eternal fathers and Eternal Mothers." A man who has multiple
wives can beget many more spirit children, making him much
more powerful. Mormon men must beget as many children with
as many wives as possible, for "their glory (in heaven) is
in proportion to the number of their wives and children" (Snowden 11)."
quote:i was told that is what happens. Why do all the work so that someone without any sense but only nationalist rhetoric can come around and remove it easily. There is too much nonsense on wikipedia nowadays anyway, especially with regard to history.
Originally posted by astenb:
quote:Well you can always find out.
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:wouldn't it be a fruitless undertaking though? you change it, then some idiot comes and changes it again etc. etc.? Where will it end?
Originally posted by astenb:
Anyone here want to work on editing wikipedia pages?
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
QUOTE:
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians
had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by
Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7
(a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths;
data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the
Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the
Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early
Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than
predicted from femoral length. Despite these
differences, all samples lie relatively clustered
together as compared to the other populations."
(Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient
Egyptian stature and body proportions". American
Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229. [/QB]
quote:
Predynastic egyptian stature and physical proportions
1986
G. Robins and C. C. D. Shute
Abstract
An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published byTrotter &Gleser. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic, proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed «super-negroid».
quote:
Predynastic egyptian stature and physical proportions
1986
G. Robins and C. C. D. Shute
When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic, proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed «super-negroid».
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^^ The 2 statements that the
ancient Egyptians had super negroid proportions is false
^Laughable. So who are they talking about that had
said proportions? Chinese?
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Egyptians didn't have "super-negroid" limb
proportions. Enough data has come out by now to
show that this is a myth, especially their crural
indices. Their brachial indices, however, are
rather high, and more tending to the African side
of the equation. How tropically adapted their
limbs were doesn't matter (limb length is not a
useful litmus test of recent African ancestry, as
evidenced by the limbs lengths of European
Mesolithic samples). What matters is that the
Ancient Egyptian limb lengths are such that they
cannot be accounted for by Ancient Egypt's ecology
and that they rule out an origin independent of
the tropics.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^Some threads also seem to have been shortened.
There are a bunch of threads at the top that appear
to have been bumped, but some of the more recent
posts seem to have disappeared.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,
EGYPTSEARCH FORUMS IS DEAD 8/6/2013
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
No
No mods
ES great w/o mods
Need cleaner
to cleanse oversize thread borders
on a cyclic schedule
I c Ausar cleansed 1 thread
A hearty thx 2 Ausar 4 that!!
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,
PM to ausar result =
You are using a function that requires email to be sent. It appears that the board administrator has not yet configured the email settings. Please ask him to do so. Thank you!
quote:I have reservations around quoting Kemp as an authority. He's suggested that the paintings of yellow Egyptian women on tomb walls might indicate a preference for light-skinned women.
Uh no, actually Kemp clearly warns that said finding is because
samples were drawn from the far north, near Cairo and are
LATE PERIOD samples as shown below.
Samples from the north, Kemp also notes are also
not representative of ancient Egypt.
quote:look at the thread
Originally posted by claus3600:
quote:I have reservations around quoting Kemp as an authority. He's suggested that the paintings of yellow Egyptian women on tomb walls might indicate a preference for light-skinned women.
Uh no, actually Kemp clearly warns that said finding is because
samples were drawn from the far north, near Cairo and are
LATE PERIOD samples as shown below.
Samples from the north, Kemp also notes are also
not representative of ancient Egypt.
quote:I'm saying symbolism is not being used, these are not religious paintings.
Originally posted by claus3600:
^Are you saying that brown used in the depiction of the men in these Roman images is symbolic?
quote:Or a preference for dark-skinned men?
I don't know but these paintings demonstrate preference for light skinned women
quote:It's highly unlikely these paintings were produced by women.
Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness
quote:Or a preference for dark-skinned men?
I don't know but these paintings demonstrate preference for light skinned women
quote:No it's not incorrect to suggest that that is a possibility.
Originally posted by claus3600:
Do you think Kemp is incorrect to suggest that depictions of yellow women possibly indicate a preference for light-skinned women?
quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
^Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Could you also help out with the depiction of Middle Kingdom women as white? And what are we to make of NK depictions of men and women in the same brown colour? The depiction of Kushites and Ptolemaic Pharoahs as reddish-brown is also interesting.
quote:The portraits show similar physical traits between both sexes, which indicate the same ethnicity.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
^Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Could you also help out with the depiction of Middle Kingdom women as white? And what are we to make of NK depictions of men and women in the same brown colour? The depiction of Kushites and Ptolemaic Pharoahs as reddish-brown is also interesting.
Devoted Couple
fifth dynasty, 2494-2345 B.C.) shows a man and his wife. It was likely placed in their tomb at the cemetery of Tehna as a focal point for the family, friends, and neighbors who visited to perform rituals of devotion.
Metropolitan museum
I wouldn't use the terms "black" and "white" or apply a general rule to a time period.
quote:Where are the records for these claims?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ all speculation,no proof, first saying "must have been schematic [or symbolic]"
then going on to say
"may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in
the sun than men."
-therefore speculatng the women in
these artifacts were naturally light skinned
if they stayed indoors but if they caught
some sun and got a little darker
they still made them light in the art as if they
stayed indoors 24-7
Amenhotep III is known to have married several foreign women:
Gilukhepa, the daughter of Shuttarna II of Mitanni, in the tenth year of his reign.
Tadukhepa, the daughter of his ally Tushratta of Mitanni, Around Year 36 of his reign.
A daughter of Kurigalzu, king of Babylon.
A daughter of Kadashman-Enlil, king of Babylon.
A daughter of Tarhundaradu, ruler of Arzawa.
A daughter of the ruler of Ammia (in modern Syria)
^^^ there are other examples,
quote:BIBL. Mercer, S.A.B. The Tell el Amarna Tablets, (two vols) Toronto: 1939.
At one time it was suggested that *Akhenaten's famous queen, *Nefertiti, was the re-named Tadukhepa; the famous head of *Nefertiti in Berlin, it was argued, represented a woman of non-Egyptian and possibly Indo-Aryan origin. Evidence that relates to other members of *Nefertiti's family would indicate that she was of Egyptian, although unknown, parentage.
quote:Old thread revival,
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
"Thus, the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the
clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in
the sun than men. Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may
be even deeper, making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference
between men and women in Egyptian worldview..
--- 'Color Symbolism' by Gay Robins, The Ancient Gods Speak: A Guide to Egyptian Religion. Edited by Donald Redford
quote:Carlos, the most interesting thing of all is, that most African ethnic groups have a reddish undertone.
Originally posted by claus3600:
^Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Could you also help out with the depiction of Middle Kingdom women as white? And what are we to make of NK depictions of men and women in the same brown colour? The depiction of Kushites and Ptolemaic Pharoahs as reddish-brown is also interesting.
quote:match for lighter skin female
Originally posted by xyyman:
What makes you think the "Palestinians" are not the R-V88 carriers? The so called indigenous Bedoiuns.
I read that the Slavs were brought in as slaves during historical times. They never returned to Europe. There is a reason why the present Isreali Govt revere the Bedoiuns.
quote:That's an interesting theory, and it has been proposed by older genetic studies before. However,...
Originally posted by xyyman:
What makes you think the "Palestinians" are not the R-V88 carriers? The so called indigenous Bedoiuns.
I read that the Slavs were brought in as slaves during historical times. They never returned to Europe. There is a reason why the present Isreali Govt revere the Bedoiuns.
code:
SNP Location Haplogroup Mutations
M5 M C > T
M9 K, KR C > G
M11 L A > G
M45 P, PR G > A
M69 H T > C
M89 F, FR C > T
M96 E G > C
M122 O3 T > C
M168 CR C > T
M170 I A > C
M174 D T > C
M175 O T > A
M20 G G > T
M207 R A > G
M214 NO T > C
M304 J A > C
M343 R1b C > A
P36 Q G > T
SRY10831.1 BR A > G
quote:--Fulvio Cruciani et al (2011)
The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1).
quote:Color symbolism is rooted in people who were actually alive, as they are today.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ makes no sense, I had said that some of this Egyptian art, when not dealing with goddesses, it might be dealing with actual variance in skin tone. Now this idiot shows a variety skins tones which supports my point, yet calling me me a liar and wants to support that it was symbolic at the same time, what a fool.
Thutmose III had three Asiatic wives, all daughters of powerful Palestinian chieftains allied with Egypt, in addition to his Great Wife.
Of course because of this picture in the previous post that must never of happened, that's some sort of proof. Yes I'm a liar now because I had an opinion on a possibility, one bourne out in the historical record, now I must to submit to feelgoodist history
quote:explain how that makes me a liiar
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Females with lighter skin are seen as esthetic beautiful. This is what makes you a liar.
quote:I will explain it to you once again.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:explain how that makes me a liiar
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Females with lighter skin are seen as esthetic beautiful. This is what makes you a liar.
and use specific quotes from me to show exactly where I am lying to back it up otherwise shut up
quote:I don't say "more than" or anything like that comparing the amount of diversity between Eurasia and Africa.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
[
I will explain it to you once again.
You will iterate on with utterance that Greece and the rest of Europe has more situ diversity in phynotope/ genotype/ hair texture/ color complexion than all of Africa/ Africans
quote:stop whining, you do too much of it
Originally posted by Doug M:
Folks must understand that white supremacy will not and can not give up on ancient Egypt. It is the basis of everything they do to cover up and lie about Egypt's past. That is the reason they created the science of anthropology in the first place, so they could make up all sorts of pseudoscience to claim ancient Egyptians as white. You cannot trust people who put that much effort into lying in order to justify rape, slavery, oppression and murder. These institutions were built for one purpose: to lie and cover up the past. This is done all over the world not just Egypt, but Egypt is the most obvious example. But this same thing happens all over Africa from stealing all the artifacts in Benin, then after destroying the town and leaving it a ruin, they have the nerve to sit here and pretend that they didn't know it existed. British archaeologists have artifacts they have looted from all over the planet and in most cases, they are considered as war booty and not used for any real historical research. Their scholars are too busy making up lies trying to pretend that all civilization came from Europe to actually study artifacts from around the world that contradict them.
Therefore, you cannot expect these people to ever tell the truth. Their whole purpose in life is to lie or lie with a purpose in mind.
For example. Note the following RECENT video made about ancient Egypt and the birth of that civilization by the History channel. Note that this video is so full of absurd historical flaws that it can only be understood in the context of lying with a purpose. The agenda is clear and only people with knowledge of history will see it.
As a hint, they got some Charleton Heston look alike as part of the war for unification and you got a bunch of bearded rabbi types supposedly playing priests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAe4GHoX_zo
quote:Really..?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ this is what white people looked like 35,000 years ago
quote:
Originally posted by IronLion:
Lyonese my skunt, you have no shame...
Muur ancient Latins :
The Senator...
quote:I talk about white supremacy sometimes. There are posts I have made that can be quoted.
Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Gotta love clowns and their attempts to divert from the facts. Talk about white supremacy and you are whining.
quote:^^^^ another brother obsessed with the snow bunny. That's why our race dont get anywhere, sinful lusts for vanilla.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Could powerful blacks similar to above have been responsible
for producing hybrids of Caucasians, via relations
with Asian/Eurasian women?
E------- longated African at work...
quote:You have some fugging nerve to talk about obsession and hobbies when your only hobby is to obsess propagated lies and disinformation 24/7. Dusk to dawn. Who does this other than a degenerate loser who gets paid to work from home from some obscure corporation. The only time you're away from this raggedy site is to take a shiit. Then you return to ES to take another shiit on the entire goddamn forum. Typical cyber pussies.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But you're obssessed with it. It's the only thing you talk about.
Don't you have any hobbies? [/QB]
quote:Great points. And deep psychoanalysis.
Originally posted by JMT2:
quote:You have some fugging nerve to talk about obsession and hobbies when your only hobby is to obsess propagated lies and disinformation 24/7. Dusk to dawn. Who does this other than a degenerate loser who gets paid to work from home from some obscure corporation. The only time you're away from this raggedy site is to take a shiit. Then you return to ES to take another shiit on the entire goddamn forum. Typical cyber pussies. [/QB]
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But you're obssessed with it. It's the only thing you talk about.
Don't you have any hobbies?
quote:These facts are very real, and as a matter of fact you've hit the nail on the right marker, you've exposed white supremacy.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Gotta love clowns and their attempts to divert from the facts. Talk about white supremacy and you are whining. Yet how is it that for a people who have gone all over the world raping, murdering and stealing without ONCE paying a dime of reparations or giving AN INCH of land back they want to sit here and whine about people trying to kill them off. They lie, cheat and steal on a daily basis and then want to sit up and pretend to be the basis of all that is good and right on earth.
Please.
quote:another whiner
Originally posted by JMT2:
quote:You have some fugging nerve to talk about obsession and hobbies when your only hobby is to obsess propagated lies and disinformation 24/7. Dusk to dawn. Who does this other than a degenerate loser who gets paid to work from home from some obscure corporation. The only time you're away from this raggedy site is to take a shiit. Then you return to ES to take another shiit on the entire goddamn forum. Typical cyber pussies. [/QB]
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But you're obssessed with it. It's the only thing you talk about.
Don't you have any hobbies?
quote:You've proven Doug M to be on point. You are here on EgyptSearch basically the embodiment of what he described. A prime example!
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:another whiner [/QB]
Originally posted by JMT2:
quote:You have some fugging nerve to talk about obsession and hobbies when your only hobby is to obsess propagated lies and disinformation 24/7. Dusk to dawn. Who does this other than a degenerate loser who gets paid to work from home from some obscure corporation. The only time you're away from this raggedy site is to take a shiit. Then you return to ES to take another shiit on the entire goddamn forum. Typical cyber pussies.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But you're obssessed with it. It's the only thing you talk about.
Don't you have any hobbies?
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You think someone as intelligent as Doug would waste his time arguing with your idiocy?? LOL
quote:You are not in the position to call out anyone.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
stop cheerleading and seeking my attention, this is between Doug and me
quote:No problem.
Originally posted by LEDAMA:
@Blessed by horus-thanks for the info man