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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268


Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.


Zahi Hawass, egyptologist1, Somaia Ismail, professor of molecular biology23, Ashraf Selim, professor of radiology4, Sahar N Saleem, professor of radiology4, Dina Fathalla, molecular biologist3, Sally Wasef, molecular biologist5, Ahmed Z Gad, molecular biologist3, Rama Saad, molecular biologist3, Suzan Fares, molecular biologist3, Hany Amer, assistant professor of pharmacology6, Paul Gostner, radiologist7, Yehia Z Gad, professor of molecular genetics2, Carsten M Pusch, molecular biologist8, Albert R Zink, paleopathologist9
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Good find.

Hawass led the study which means he had to have ok'd the haplogroup prediction at some point. I see that Zink and Pusch are still active with aDNA, proving faith-based nay-saying scholars that ancient DNA is authentic. I also see Hawass is loosening up now after realizing he can no longer plug the floodgates of inconvenient truths from bursting out the gates. Its like a bad case of diarrhea; its gonna come out, and when it does, you can try to pinch your sphincter all you want--to no avail.

It's going to be a bonus this Chrismas to see the blogs (Dienekes, Mathilda et al) respond to this, if they're not going to attempt to keep it from their audience, that is.
 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 
Interesting.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.



By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.

Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:

D2S1388:15
D21S11:28
D21S11:29.2
D16S539:12
D18S51:26
CSF1PO:10
FGA:34.2

16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.
 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 
What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:
What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?

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Read the paper. Its all in there.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
summary:

"Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓)."

--Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268


Haplogroup E1b1a (now known as E-M2) is an
African DNA group, most commonly found in sub-Saharan Africa QUOTE:

"Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%)."

--Trombetta et al 2011. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2)
PLoS ONE 6(1): e16073.


 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Beyoku great Find. Swenet nice breakdown and I hope TRUTH keeps on being revealed I may have an little respect for Hawass(Can't believe I said that)

True story, You can only coverup Truth for an short while. Truth stands the Test of time.

Swenet

Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.

Beating 2 doe doe birds with one stick. Gotta Love it.

Peace
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:
What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?

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Read the paper. Its all in there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.

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That's what I find most delicious about this year's spate of findings too. The links aren't with the Horner types whose Africanity constantly gets questioned, but with the so-called Bantu/True Negro/Congoid Africans. You know, the very African people from whom Euronuts obsessively try to separate Egypt.

That said, I would not necessarily interpret these results as showing a particularly close tie between Egyptians and Central African Bantu (at least relative to other sub-Saharan Africans). Population geneticists often describe an early split between most Africans and Horners/non-Africans as the most basic partitioning of human genomes, so this data may reflect that the Egyptians predominantly came from the "most African" (or non-OOA African) side of the divide. Alternatively, Horners may have recently acquired a major Eurasian genetic component not present in Africa back in distant antiquity. At least these scenarios are what I would speculate.
 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 
Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Was there actually a significant west African population in AE?

And this does prove DNAtribes right in a way, because they said King Tut had some West African in him.

I'm just curious. I know the Euroclowns and Horner supremacist won't like that.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
He will keep denying the truth, distorting and lying KING.
But that's OK. That's what we expect. Our main job is to
keep building the database with the facts and the visual
evidence, and to expose their lies and distortion secondarily.
PS, If I were you KING I would backup all the great
images you have posted, and cross-post them to Reloaded.
No telling when ES is going to disappear.
Keep up the good work! Peace.



"Come the three corners of the world in arms, and we shall shock them."
--Shakespeare, "King John"
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
LOL, Oh Im sure the Euroclowns will flood Youtube with this info like they did when they mistakenly thought that a Screenshot of Tut's DNA was accurate n making him R1b..

lol
 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 
Lol...Man! I remember when Euroclowns tried to claim that Ramses was a red haired pale Libyan.

Lol!
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Beyoku great Find. Swenet nice breakdown and I hope TRUTH keeps on being revealed I may have an little respect for Hawass(Can't believe I said that)

True story, You can only coverup Truth for an short while. Truth stands the Test of time.

Swenet

Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.

Beating 2 doe doe birds with one stick. Gotta Love it.

Peace

---

quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:
What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?

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Read the paper. Its all in there.

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Read through it multiple times. Still don't get it. :/

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingMichael777:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingMichael777:
What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?

---

Read the paper. Its all in there.

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Read through it multiple times. Still don't get it. :/

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You mean to tell me you read this multiple times, and still don't know who unknown man E is?

Our analysis showed that Ramesses III and unknown man E shared the same paternal lineage and had identical alleles at autosomal markers, strongly suggesting that they were father and son. However, based on the genetic testing, any differentiation among the several sons of Ramesses III was not possible. Historically, Pentawere was the only son who revolted against his father in contrast to all his brothers. According to the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, Pentawere was involved in the harem conspiracy, was found guilty at trial, and then took his own life.

The unusual mummification process of unknown man E, including the ritually impure use of a goat skin to cover the body, could be interpreted as evidence for a punishment in the form of a non-royal burial procedure. Together with the genetically proven family relationship with Ramesses III, we therefore believe that unknown man E is a good candidate for Pentawere.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:
Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:

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Originally posted by KingMichael777:
Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?

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Depends on how you define "West African". If you mean the area traditionally defined as such (i.e. the Niger River and adjacent areas), than not necessarily. However, when you consider the archaeological ties many predynastic Egyptian cultures show to the Western Desert, in a sense you could say the Egyptians received significant influences from Africa west of the Nile.

The PN2 clade does suggest a somewhat close fraternal link between Egyptian, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo-speaking African peoples. Now combine that genetic data with linguistic reports of affinity between Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan and Diop's argument for a relationship between Niger-Congo and Afrasan.

In my personal speculation, Diop was not so off the mark when he argued that the majority of Saharo-Tropical African people descend from Nile Valley inhabitants. He may not have projected that common ancestry far back enough (dating it to historical antiquity rather than sometime in the Late Stone Age), but he could still have gotten the basic movements right. The scenario I envision is that Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Egyptian peoples can all trace their heritage to Late Stone Age peoples living somewhere around the Nile area. Claims of related mathematical processes between the Ishango bone in Central Africa and ancient Egyptian papyri could further narrow this area to the Nile's very source, vindicating the "Mountains of the Moon" legend.

If this does indeed turn out to be the case, I wonder what we would call this macro-ethnic group?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:


Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.



By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.

Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:

D2S1388:15
D21S11:28
D21S11:29.2
D16S539:12
D18S51:26
CSF1PO:10
FGA:34.2

16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.

---

 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Buy the following book and you will find out more about the connection between the Niger-congo speakers and Egyptians.



Egyptian Languages , provides the linguistic evidence that confirms the hypothesis of Cheikh Anta Diop, L. Homburger, M. Delafosse that the Niger-Congo speakers and Egyptians had a common origin. In this book we argue that many Egytians living in the 22 sepats of Upper Egypt spoke Niger-Congo languages including the Bantu, Fulani, and Mande languages.

Egyptian Languages , provides the genetic, linguistic and archaeological evidence relating to the diverse Niger-Congo speakers who made up segments of the Egyptian nation. Readers of this book will learn that the Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Highland regions of Middle Africa: the Mountains of the Moon ; and that this population which later settled Upper Egypt, formerly belonged to the Ounanian culture.

Go to Author Central to see more books written by Dr. Winters: http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B00ALYO4EI


.

.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

Head of Ramesses I, founder of the 19th Dynasty


Ramesses II, 19th Dynasty


Ramesses II with God Ptah-Taten, 19th Dynasty



Ramesses III, 19th Dynasty



Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III, 19th Dynasty
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^^ do you have any with unbroken noses?
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ do you have any with unbroken noses?

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You perfectly know that Ancient Kemite statues had their noses broken off by later non-African dynasty to try to hide their African identity.

Here's the Hieroglyph (medu neter) for "Face"/Hr in Ancient Egyptian language:


Ipet-Isut temples



Relief Fragment , "hr" hieroglyph


Hatshepsut Temple
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] ^^^^^ do you have any with unbroken noses?

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You perfectly know that Ancient Kemite statues had their noses broken off by later non-African dynasty to try to hide their African identity.

Here's the Hieroglyph (medu neter) for "Face"/Hr in Ancient Egyptian language:

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quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Originally posted by KingMichael777:
Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?

E1b1a is found not only in West Africa but Central
Africa as well, a location in which some geographers
include parts of CHad- a Saharan zone nation as well.
But aside from that, the climatic cycles of the Sahara
caused the movement of populations across a broad range.
E1b1a carriers could be in the Nile Valley, the Sahel,
or elsewhere further west or south, depending on the era,
with the densities changing over the millennia.
They are not limited by neat "apartheid" zones on
the continent but move freely based on circumstances
over millennia.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

.

---

I think its more accurate to say that ancient Egypt was a
product of a Pan-African bio-culture, that made up many
tropical African ethnicities. Egypt is only one child
of that culture, albeit a very important one. It
is not a central headquarters for Africans or Africa,
as some seem to envision. It is a result of things
existing and worked out on the core bio-cultural
ground, not a cause.

Divine kingship for example was not invented in
Egypt and then spread to the rest of Africa. The movement
is the other way. It already existed on the ground and
then spread to the Egyptian zone. The driving force,
the groundings is always with Africa first.


 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Hey alTakruri. Here is some more data to compare with your results. This paper posted by Beyoku shows that the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong in fact do have the alleles your software associates with Europeans. How do the European frequencies of D2S1338=15 and D13S317=9 compare to Karamojong frequencies of these alleles?

The former allele (D2S1338=15) occurs more often in African Americans than European Americans, per this link, and it also occurs at slightly higher rate in the Karamojong. The other one (D13S317=9) occurs more in European Americans than in African Americans and Karamojans according to the aforementioned link. This paper seems to also agree with your software's conclusion of D13S317=9. The drawback of 2/3 links I provide here is that the comparative samples are diasporal Africans who descend from West Africans. West Africa and the Sahel are not the best African regions to compare to Europe when it comes to the Amarna family population affinities, which can be seen in DNATribes' regional MLI scores.

quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:
Genetic analysis of autosomal and Y-specific STRs
in the Karimojong population from Uganda

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.

---

what about Nilotes?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Thuya gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Tut gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Akhenaten gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Coptic gene (not found in the Amarna mummies)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Thuya gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Tut gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Akhenaten gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Coptic gene (not found in the Amarna mummies)

---

Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.

---

Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.

Call me an Afrocentric all you want.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingMichael777:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Thuya gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Tut gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Akhenaten gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Coptic gene (not found in the Amarna mummies)

---

Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.

---

Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.

Call me an Afrocentric all you want.

---

We can call you(us) Afrorealistic now.
 

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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingMichael777:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Thuya gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Tut gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Akhenaten gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Coptic gene (not found in the Amarna mummies)

---

Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.

---

Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.

Call me an Afrocentric all you want.

---

We can call you(us) Afrorealistic now.

---

Yep!
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.

It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.

-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.

If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.

---

 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Wow! I just got through reading the paper and I am not only intrigued by the findings that Unknown Man E is Pentawere but exhilarated by the thought that Ramses III and Pentawere probably possessed E1b1a!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Good find.

Hawass led the study which means he had to have ok'd the haplogroup prediction at some point. I see that Zink and Pusch are still active with aDNA, proving faith-based nay-saying scholars that ancient DNA is authentic. I also see Hawass is loosening up now after realizing he can no longer plug the floodgates of inconvenient truths from bursting out the gates. Its like a bad case of diarrhea; its gonna come out, and when it does, you can try to pinch your sphincter all you want--to no avail.

It's going to be a bonus this Chrismas to see the blogs (Dienekes, Mathilda et al) respond to this, if they're not going to attempt to keep it from their audience, that is.

---

I couldn't have put it any better myself! I bet that's exactly how Hawass must feel-- like he has a bad case of diarrhea that he is desperate to stop! LOL It's as I and many veterans have been predicting all along-- that the truth was going to come out eventually. I mean the whole 'ban' on DNA testing of mummies had to end eventually, but several years ago when Tut and his family were tested, I knew it was only the beginning of the end!

As for the Euronut blog owner and web mistress Dienekes and Mathilda, I can only imagine that they are squirming like the worms they are! You can already see the desperation in one of Mathilda's employees in this forum as it is. LOL
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.

It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.

-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.

If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.

---

---

Yes and unfortunately you have the Afronuts like Clyde who think such findings further license them to spread their nonsense of Tut carrying R1 which is based on the countless times DEBUNKED footage of a control sample. And he still puts forth the nonsense that Egypt was a 'Pan-African' civilization as if Africans from all parts of the continent took part.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.

---

what about Nilotes?

---

What do you mean? Naqada ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes? From what we already know about them, the ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. But the extreme tall and slender phenotype of Southern Sudanese Nilotes probably didn't exist back then (not in Central Sudan), but they were evidently there, as evidenced by the lip plugs found in Central Sudanese graves (allegedly also in Ethiopia) before dynastic times and the archaeologitcal and linguistic data which places them along the Middle Nile and surrounding regions.

Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in
regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially
in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours
and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai
island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been
found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone
lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more
common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach.
Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork,
and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use.
--David Edwards, THE NUBIAN PAST

^As noted by the Edwards, there seems to be a distinction between Southern and Northern Nilo-Saharan speakers in lip plugs, which mirrors other distinctions (e.g., morphology and a dominance of pharaonic culture and religion).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde you gonna take that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.

It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.

-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.

If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Beyoku shows that the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong in fact do have the alleles your software associates with Europeans.

How do the European frequencies of D2S1338=15

---

quote:

---

and D13S317=9 compare to Karamojong frequencies

---

quote:

---

The former allele (D2S1338=15) occurs more often in African Americans than European Americans, per this link, and it also occurs at slightly higher rate in the Karamojong. The other one (D13S317=9) occurs more in European Americans than in African Americans and Karamojans according to the aforementioned link. This paper seems to also agree with your software's conclusion of D13S317=9.

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quote:

---

The drawback of 2/3 links I provide here is that the comparative samples are diasporal Africans who descend from West Africans. West Africa and the Sahel are not the best African regions to compare to Europe ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by astenb: Genetic analysis of autosomal and Y-specific STRs
in the Karimojong population from Uganda


BTW, did you read my DNAconsultants.com thread before it got deleted a couple of weeks ago?

---

quote:

---

They detected Amerindian and Iberian links, just like you did, but they interpret all the Hawass2010 alleles they processed (three in total) as having originated in Central Africa (in deep time), and explain the relatively high doses of the alleles in Eurasia as admixture with Ancient Egyptians (probably way before the dynastic times) and so, ultimately with Central Africans. They call the alleles ''genes'', but they're the same alleles we're discussing here. Just something to keep in mind whenever these alleles appear in Eurasia; at least the ones analyzed by DNAconsultants are all indicative of contact with Africans:

Thuya gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Tut gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Akhenaten gene analysed by DNAconsultant.com
Coptic gene (not found in the Amarna mummies)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
LOL find a fool bump his head. R-V88 is still a R1 clade, they just changed the name to make it appear that Blacks belong solely to onr clade and whites to another. They do this to make it appear that Blacks never left Africa after 60kya. In this way they can claim specific clades like mtDNA M, U6 and N, and y-haplogroups R. are of Eurasian origin, when in reality the age of these haplogroups support the view they had already expanded across Africa. Next these geneticist claim there was a back migration of these clades back into Africa, via the Levant--when the Levant was still occupied by Neanderthals. Eventhough the archaeology , contradicts the theories of these researchers advocating a back migration people here and elsewhere take these researchers seriously.

Dravidian archaeology and linguistics indicate they recently migrated from Nubia into India, yet geneticists claim Dravidians are native to India.

LOL people would rather be led by someone else instead of thinking for themselves.

Also, the E clade could not have originated in West Africa because Niger-Congo people don't appear in the region until between 3000-2500 BC.

As Grandma said, "Find a fool bump his head"

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.

It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.

-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.

If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.

---

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.

---

what about Nilotes?

---

What do you mean? Naqada ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes? From what we already know about them, the ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. But the extreme tall and slender phenotype of Southern Sudanese Nilotes probably didn't exist back then (not in Central Sudan), but they were evidently there, as evidenced by the lip plugs found in Central Sudanese graves (allegedly also in Ethiopia) before dynastic times and the archaeologitcal and linguistic data which places them along the Middle Nile and surrounding regions.

Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in
regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially
in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours
and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai
island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been
found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone
lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more
common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach.
Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork,
and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use.
--David Edwards, THE NUBIAN PAST

^As noted by the Edwards, there seems to be a distinction between Southern and Northern Nilo-Saharan speakers in lip plugs, which mirrors other distinctions (e.g., morphology and a dominance of pharaonic culture and religion).

---

Truthcentric had said he thought Nilotes have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians. But you said ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak.
Others suggest Horners might have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians.
But you said said predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways.

Well I guess that leaves Copts

-unless you suggest the primary ancestors of dynastic Egyptians
were not predynastic Naqadans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm hesitant to continue talking to you

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

because 9 times out of 10 your questions are motivated by backhanded attempts to somehow show contradictions or contrast answers with what some other person/authority says.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


--I clearly said the extreme tall and lean physique seen in many Southern Sudanese Nilotes was probably not in existence back then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

I also said that Naqadans do cluster with Horners due to a composite physique that is intermediate between Northern Africans and West Africans (not necessarily due to Horner descent). Isolated features, however, show that Naqadans wouldn't have looked like Horners they're traditionally confused with, i.e., Somali's or Oromo. They had semi-broad faces on par with many Niger Congo speakers, a low vault height and very elongated calvarium (hyperdolichocephaly). None of these occur in the populational averages of Cushitic speaking Horners, who are, on average, leptoprospic (tall faced) and not as extremely dolichocephalic, according to Hiernaux' data.


Miss Fawcett believes the Naqada crania to be sufficiantly homogenous to justify speaking of a Naqada race. By height of the skull, the auricular height, the height and width of the face, the height of the nose, the ceohalic and facial indexes, this race presents affinities with Negroes. By the nasal width, the height of the orbit, the length of the palate, and the nasal index, it presents affinities with Germans....

Go play somewhere, will ya. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb] Where ever they are now, these alleles were all present
in three Egyptian Africans two of whom's nrY chromosome
is the deeply rooted African E-V38 (E1b1a) ancestral to E-M2
(now E1b1a1) "sub-Sahara" Africa's prevalent super-haplogroup.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Beyoku shows that the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong in fact do have the alleles your software associates with Europeans.

How do the European frequencies of D2S1338=15

---

Karamojong_ Sweden_ NW Russia_
0.006_______ 0.002__ 0.021_____

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
and D13S317=9 compare to Karamojong frequencies

---

Karamojong_ FR BASQUE_ France_ Sardinian_ Tuscan_ NW Spain_ Orkneys_ Sweden_ NW Russia_ Caucasus Adygei
0.042______ 0.022 ______ 0.107_ 0.089____ 0.063__ 0.046_____ 0.067___ 0.082___ 0.016_____ 0.107__________

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm hesitant to continue talking to you

---

Yes you prefer to go into 18 page depth with Faheem_Hitlerologist

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

because 9 times out of 10 your questions are motivated by backhanded attempts to somehow show contradictions or contrast answers with what some other person/authority says.

---

essential, necessary role

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


--I clearly said the extreme tall and lean physique seen in many Southern Sudanese Nilotes was probably not in existence back then.

---

why wasn't it? <good question

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

I also said that Naqadans do cluster with Horners due to a composite physique that is intermediate between Northern Africans and West Africans (not necessarily due to Horner descent). Isolated features, however, show that Naqadans wouldn't have looked like Horners they're traditionally confused with, i.e., Somali's or Oromo. They had semi-broad faces on par with many Niger Congo speakers, a low vault height and very elongated calvarium (hyperdolichocephaly). None of these occur in the populational averages of Cushitic speaking Horners, who are, on average, leptoprospic (tall faced) and not as extremely dolichocephalic, according to Hiernaux' data.


Miss Fawcett believes the Naqada crania to be sufficiantly homogenous to justify speaking of a Naqada race. By height of the skull, the auricular height, the height and width of the face, the height of the nose, the ceohalic and facial indexes, this race presents affinities with Negroes. By the nasal width, the height of the orbit, the length of the palate, and the nasal index, it presents affinities with Germans....

Go play somewhere, will ya.

---

As usual you complicte things so much that no one can figure out which modern population you think has the greatest affinity to the dynastic Egyptians -if any. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I clearly said the extreme tall and lean physique seen in many Southern Sudanese Nilotes was probably not in existence back then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Scholars in the past have tried in vain to associate this with 'Sub-Saharan slave trade' in Nilotes, yet the populations which this occurs are indigenous Egyptians while enslaved Nilotes usually carried A and B if not E1b1b.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Another significant implication of this finding is laying to rest the theory that the Ramessides were of 'northern' or rather Asiatic extraction! Clearly this isn't the case at all at least in terms of paternal lineage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Where ever they are now, these alleles were all present
in three Egyptian Africans two of whom's nrY chromosome
is the deeply rooted African E-V38 (E1b1a) ancestral to E-M2
(now E1b1a1) "sub-Sahara" Africa's prevalent super-haplogroup.

---

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, are you referring to the alleles in general or specifically to the D2S1338=15 and D13S317=9 STRs? If the latter, did you infer this with popSTR? How?

---

quote:

---

One has to keep in mind that these individual alleles are ancient, and can easily have dwindled or disappeared altogether in modern African populations, while remaining elevated in European populations due to founder effect and genetic drift.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Take the Thuya Gene, for instance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Ramses III is, as far as Egyptologists can tell, not a descendant of the Ramessid line of the 19th dynasty. Ramses III's ancestry appears in the 20th dynastic line with his father, with little to no admirable offspring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Where ever they are now, these alleles were all present
in three Egyptian Africans two of whom's nrY chromosome
is the deeply rooted African E-V38 (E1b1a) ancestral to E-M2
(now E1b1a1) "sub-Sahara" Africa's prevalent super-haplogroup.

---

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, are you referring to the alleles in general or specifically to the D2S1338=15 and D13S317=9 STRs? If the latter, did you infer this with popSTR? How?

---

Hawass reported Ramses III's and Unknown Man E's
MiniFiler STR profiles. If they're father and son then
we have UME's mother's profile too. Only where
R III's and UME's deep root uniparental hg E-V38
is present in any modern populations, eg., present
Africans, is direct shared descent assured vs implied.

Time is unilinear from then to now. All the values
of these profiles' 8 loci were then ancient African
Egyptian gene pool values no matter where they're
now found today despite current frequencies. As
you've astutely stated

quote:

---

One has to keep in mind that these individual alleles are ancient, and can easily have dwindled or disappeared altogether in modern African populations, while remaining elevated in European populations due to founder effect and genetic drift.

---

to which I'll add non-gene flow necessitated homoplasy. After
all, how did all these differing repeat values arise originally?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Take the Thuya Gene, for instance.

---

This is what I don't like about the companies that try
to hook customers into buying their product via "ancient
celebrity prestige" DNA matches using "proprietary science".

There's no such thing as proprietary (i.e., non-replicable)
science and there's no such thing as a Thuya gene. Their
ad-copy writer doesn't know the difference between a
gene and a STR profile (which has many "genes"). And
it's impossible for Thuya to pass her complete pair set
unless her mate had the same profile and every generation
of offspring through time up to the sucker, I mean purchaser,
of the trademarked $300 DNA Fingerprint Plus + $289 Rare Genes
from History Panel only available from you know who (statisticians
not geneticists).

Besides raw data, when given, I place scientific
stock in neither their ads nor consumer newsletters.

---

quote:

---

Hawass reported Ramses III's and Unknown Man E's`
MiniFiler STR profiles. If they're father and son then
we have UME's mother's profile too. Only where
R III's and UME's deep root uniparental hg E-V38
is present in any modern populations, eg., present
Africans, is direct shared descent assured vs implied.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Agreed. It's obviously a case of science that has been watered down for the scientifically illiterate and then packaged into a nice advertising gimmick.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Ramses III is, as far as Egyptologists can tell, not a descendant of the Ramessid line of the 19th dynasty. Ramses III's ancestry appears in the 20th dynastic line with his father, with little to no admirable offspring.

---

As far as its known, Ramose III is the only child of the founding patriarch of the 20th dynasty, Setnakhte, and his wife, Tiye-Merenese. Ramose III on the other hand had many notable offspring. It's true that there are no records indicating Setnakhte to be a direct descendant of any of the last rulers of the 19th dynasty. Because of such, Egyptologists consider one of two theories-- either he was a usurper who seized the throne during political unrest OR he was a member of a minor line of the 19th dynasty which hasn't been attested for. I am personally inclined towards the latter theory for two reasons. First of all, not only did Setnakhte name his son 'Ramose' in continuation with the traditions of the 19th dynasty but even Ramose III named two of his sons 'Ramose' and four other sons 'Khaemwaset', 'Amun-her-khepshef', 'Seth-her-khepshef' and 'Monthu-her-khepshef'-- all names of 19th dynasty princes, specifically sons of Ramses II the Great. Second of all, are the X-ray findings by Harris and Wente on the skulls of the 19th and 20th dynasty which show very close affinities. The skulls of the 20th dynasty kings resemble those of the 19th dynasty kings enough to postulate a familial relation.

And though records don't show a direct line between the founding king of the 20th dynasty and the last kings of the 19th, we must not forget that inheritance of the throne is not based on paternal descent but rather maternal descent or at least marriage to a lady of the royal house. There are hints that suggest Setnakhte's wife, Tiye-Merenese, may have been a daughter of King Merenptah, the grandfather of the last king of the 19th dynasty.

As for E1b1a, you are correct that though the hg is present in the upper Nile of Egypt, it is rare to almost absent in Sudan. Which is why I too like Xyman postulate its origins west in the central Sahara when it was green. Perhaps this hg arrived in conjunction with the Badarians(?)

---

Badarians were the first archaeologically visible population in Egypt to respond to the increasing aridity, around 4400bc, by moving to the Nile in Middle Egypt. I would imagine the arrival of many Africans in the region of Eastern most Libya/Chad, and everything in between the said locations, and the Nile. We know that Badarians were (one of) the first to settle there as semi nomads, so other populations would have to follow suit in between this point in time (~4400bc), and the start of the dynasties, when conditions in the Sahara are identical to the scorching Sahara of today. We in fact see this happening, sites do increase sharply along the Nile, especially during proto and early dynastic times, when Saharan populations who didn't find ways to adapt realized that a sustained presence in the Sahara was untenable. This is one of the best kept secrets of the Proto and Early Dynasty that people rarely talk about.

Many disciplines have independently come to the conclusion that the Nile just wasn't an attractive location prior to the Badarian move to the Nile ~6.5kya. Prior to this date, the skeletal remains along the Upper Egyptian Nile are sparse and there was heightened activity in the oases, wadis and playas. The Darfur megalake in Northern Sudan, right below the southernmost Egyptian oases was, at its height, basically contemporary with the aforementioned pre-Badarian drop of activity along the Egyptian Nile.



http://seismo.device.mst.edu/GG/pubs/30.pdf

There are many possibilities, and undoubtedly many populations who haven't even become known to us due to the physical relatedness of predynastic Saharan and Egypto-Nubians amongst each other, and the dominant nature of the Pharaonic culture. These factors, and the lack of uni-variate markers with association to language Phyla/ancestry makes the detection of new groups of different persuasions in the skeletal/archaeological record, a challenging task. That's where ancient DNA comes in the picture.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
What is interesting is comparing the DNA Tribes with the DNA Consultants results.



Jama (2010) mummies STR value. (the 8 STR loci data used by DNA Tribes and DNA Consultants).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
In my thread, I too wondered what exactly they were referring to, but unlike DNA Tribes, DNAconsultant.com didn't match the full Pharaonic profiles against the populations in their database, they just gauged global frequencies of the individual Pharaonic alleles and decided to call them 'genes', to enhance marketability ('allele' just doesn't sound sexy). How do I know? They refer to Tut as having inherited a double dose of the ''gene'' they named after him. Looking at the micro-satellite panel from Hawass 2010 et al, this has to be a single allele. D18S51=19 or FGA=23, to be specific.

---

Yes, they identified "private allele" (allele that are relatively rare in the rest of the population in the world) is some historic individual like King Tutankamun or Akhenaten.

While DNA Tribes used the full 8 STR loci to pin-point the geographical location of common ancestors, DNA Consultants used only 1 or 2 STR loci (considered private allele). You can easily see it by comparing the DNA tribes maps of King Tut with the DNA consultants map of King Tut. The DNA Tribes is much more precise because it not only used the "private allele" used by the DNA consultants but also all the 8 STR loci available. DNA tribes are able to pin-point exact location. The DNA Consultants text is a bit more talkative than their graph since it give us some percentages and origin information.


Here clearly we can see that Ancient Egyptian mummies share the closest ancestors with people from Southern Africa, African Great Lakes and West Africa. They have excluded in their graph all populations with no or low matching percentage (their yellow circles are not visible since their percentage are so low).



Since they only used 1 or 2 STR value, that are rare but not so rare, we can see it match many people around the world. Africans obviously like the DNA Tribes but also other population around the world who may possess those 2 str value but not the other 7 (or 6) STR value (or have it in very low percentage). If almost all your STR value matches people from a certain region, that probably means your ancestors (or your descendants in the case of the mummies) are located there. You have receive most of your STR values from those ancestral parent population.


For example, according the the DNA tribe analysis (based on the 8 STR value from the JAMA study), King Tutankhamen genetic profile is 1519.03 more likely to occur in Southern Africa than in the rest of the world. Usually people who are closest to those African people (proximity, genetic exchange, migration) are the one which have the higher value. Obviously not as great as the original population with the highest match (Southern Africa, African Great Lakes, Tropical West Africa).
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:



While DNA Tribes used the full 8 STR loci to pin-point the geographical location of common ancestors, DNA Consultants used only 1 or 2 STR loci (considered private allele).

DNA tribes are able to pin-point exact location. The DNA Consultants text is a bit more talkative than their graph since it give us some percentages and origin information.


.





Here clearly we can see that Ancient Egyptian mummies share the closest ancestors with people from Southern Africa, African Great Lakes and West Africa. They have excluded in their graph all populations with no or low matching percentage (their yellow circles are not visible since their percentage are so low)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.



By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.

Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:

D2S1388:15
D21S11:28
D21S11:29.2
D16S539:12
D18S51:26
CSF1PO:10
FGA:34.2

16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.

---

quote:

---

By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats,

---

quote:

---

which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.

---

Where do you see that West Asians and Europeans have inherited a relatively high doses of AE alleles in the DNA Tribes study?

This DNA Tribes Table, that I posted already, shows all the contrary:

quote:

---

Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci:

---

quote:

---

D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:

D2S1388:15
D21S11:28
D21S11:29.2
D16S539:12
D18S51:26
CSF1PO:10
FGA:34.2

16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.

---

Same as above. As far as we know those differing Ramses III and man E alleles could even be more distinctively black African than the 18th Dynasty mummy ones. I didn't check your calculation but a 69.6% similarity seems like a high number for people who are not even from the same family. So under those calculation the 18th Dynasty mummies and Ramses III are pretty close.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


____________________________Ramesses III ________________________





 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Your point?














 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/data1_files/data1.htm

SN-Mandibular Plane

Subject: SN-Mandibular Plane

19th Dynasty

Seti I: 32.22
Ramesses II: 31.9
Merenptah: 33.4
Seti II: 41.9
Siptah: 49

20th Dynasty

Ramesses III: 28.9
Ramesses IV: 31.8
Ramesses V: 28.6
Ramesses IX (XI): 33.4


ANB Values (A point-Nasion-B point)

Subject: ANB

19th dynasty

Seti I: 5.49
Ramesses II: 6.94
Merenptah: 7.5
Seti II: 3.7
Siptah: --

20th dynasty

Ramesses III: 7.2
Ramesses IV: 6.26
Ramesses V: 3.14
Ramesses IX (XI): 4.74

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/data7_files/data7.htm

XVIV Dynasty

Seti I


Father: Ramesses I, Mother: Queen Sitre
Projecting, arched glabella. Zygomatic arches are rather forward giving prominent cheekbones. Very straight upper incisors; receding chin; moderately steep mandible and broad ramus. Sloping, rather flattened forehead. Occipital region is similar to Pharaohs of XVIII Dynasty.

Ramesses II
Father: Seti I, Mother: Queen Mut-Tuy
Rounded forehead with sagittal plateau. Slight, rounded glabella. Proclined upper incisors; receding chin with high ANB. Rather long ramus with weak inclination of mandible. Orthognathous.

Merenptah
Father: Ramesses II, Mother: Queen Isis-nofret I
Prominent, rounded glabella. Low, sloping forehead; sagittal plateau; high ANB and overbite; receding chin. Rather long ramus and slightly angular mandible like father, Ramesses II. Zygomatic arches appear to project forward.

Siptah
Father: Merenptah, Seti II or Amenmesse, Mother: Queen Tiaa
Prominent, rounded glabella. Low, sloping forehead and some sagittal flattening. Vertical, receding chin and proclined upper incisors. Strongly inclined mandible.

XX Dynasty

Ramesses IV
Father: Ramesses III, Mother: Queen Habadjilat or Queen Isis
Bulging occipital bun. Rather low vault; rounded forehead with pronounced glabella; vertical zygomatic arches; receding chin and moderate protrusion of incisors. Angular mandible



Notice Ramesses IV's occipital bun.

Ramesses V

Father: Ramesses IV or Ramesses III, Mother: Queen Habadjilat or Queen Isis
Very prominent glabella. Protrusion of upper incisors; receding chin and moderate inclination of mandible. Low, sloping forehead. Flattening of the sagittal contour.



Ramesses V has a very pronounced glabella.

I wonder if any DNA studies were done on the 19th dynasty.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ Your point?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Your point?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
how could putting up a sculpture of Ramesses III and his mummy be dismiss the contribution of the African?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I disagree with Troll Patrol, that's not a good post unless you count wishful thinking as being good.

---

I wonder, do you actually know what study I am referring at?


The info I've posted along isn't the study btw. It was mere additional info.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
I remember you had this paper on Siwa Berbers posted a while ago. On which you've stated, that it debunked Henn's paper. Can you repost it, so we can use it as reference material. I think it may come in handy.

YEah it would be good to see that info. Henn's sampling
scheme is limited.


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.



By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.

Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:

D2S1388:15
D21S11:28
D21S11:29.2
D16S539:12
D18S51:26
CSF1PO:10
FGA:34.2

16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.

---

Interesting analogy.


Alfonso et al (2007)

"The haplogroup distribution in Sudan (Fig. 1) was: 22.5% of
Eurasian ancestry; 4.9% of the East African M1 lineage; 72.5% of sub-Saharan affiliation. In the sub-Saharan pool, a proportion of 44.6% is represented by the haplogroup L3, the ancestor of the worldwide mtDNA diversity outside Africa."


I remember you had this paper on Siwa Berbers posted a while ago. On which you've stated, that it debunked Henn's paper. Can you repost it, so we can use it as reference material. I think it may come in handy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.

It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.

-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.

If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.

I still believe Tut was R1.

.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
KoKaKoLa

Hey Girl. WHat do you make of the study that States that Ramses was an E1b1a West African? Not an E1b1b East African Horner?

Even Hawass knows he can't lie to the people like he did back in the day.

---

i didnt read the study.
However being E1b1a doesnt automatically mean that he was west african especially since he didnt had a physiognomy that is common in West Africa and that there is no proof that there were a large west/central/south africans in Egypt nor Sudan.

Many people reported anormalities in the presented values, and that he was probably a E1B1B carrier.

Only time will tell!

However the ancient egyptians were not west/central/south africans!" no element of truth to it" especially that Pan-African Egypt bullshit!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde you have said that you believe R-M173 was spread by Kushites.

Does this mean the modern Northern Irish who have frequencies of R-M173 upward of 90%
are primarily Sudanese in ancestry?

---

No. I believe that West Africans spread R1 into Western Eurasia.



Formerly many Blacks lived in Britain, so why couln't they be the ancestors of the Irish who carry R1?

As I have noted elsewhere the C-Group people were Kushites. Some of these Kushites migrated into West Africa and Europe.
In a new article on the R1 clade, The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 Gonzalez et al, argue that R1 probably spread across Europe from Iberia to the east given the distribution of R1 in Africa.

In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 ; I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 in Europe is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010). Y-Chromosome R1b1b2 has high frequencies in England, France, Italy and Germany (Balaresque et al, 2010). Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 .


The Gonzalez et al http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg2012167s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2012167a.html
)is further proof of the African origin for y-chromosome R1’ The researchers found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.


You can find the statistics in the Supplementary Files that are free.


.
 

---

Posted by Neferefre (Member # 13793) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268


Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.


Zahi Hawass, egyptologist1, Somaia Ismail, professor of molecular biology23, Ashraf Selim, professor of radiology4, Sahar N Saleem, professor of radiology4, Dina Fathalla, molecular biologist3, Sally Wasef, molecular biologist5, Ahmed Z Gad, molecular biologist3, Rama Saad, molecular biologist3, Suzan Fares, molecular biologist3, Hany Amer, assistant professor of pharmacology6, Paul Gostner, radiologist7, Yehia Z Gad, professor of molecular genetics2, Carsten M Pusch, molecular biologist8, Albert R Zink, paleopathologist9

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
However the ancient egyptians were not west/central/south africans!" no element of truth to it" especially that Pan-African Egypt bullshit!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
KoKaKola

Come on Girl, You make statements about Ramses being E1b1b without even reading the Study??

All due Respect, You should not give your opinion on the Mummie without reading the study.

READ the Study and then you will see where he is linked with an Elb1a Hap group.

Also KoKo, You are sterotyping West Africans.

In West Africa are people Like the Fulani, Tuareg, Toubou etc who Look Like East Africans yet they are from the West.

Fulanis from Nigeria have Elb1a at 100%. Can you really dismiss that without reading the study?

Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] Clyde you have said that you believe R-M173 was spread by Kushites.

Does this mean the modern Northern Irish who have frequencies of R-M173 upward of 90%
are primarily Sudanese in ancestry?

---

No. I believe that West Africans spread R1 into Western Eurasia.



Formerly many Blacks lived in Britain, so why couldn't they be the ancestors of the Irish who carry R1?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
However the ancient egyptians were not west/central/south africans!" no element of truth to it" especially that Pan-African Egypt bullshit!

---

While your statement is technically true from a geographic standpoint, you like many other people seem to have an emotional aversion to the possibility that the ancient Egyptian people had any connections, cultural or genetic, to West Africans. It's like you want to move the Nile Valley to a completely separate continent from West Africa, never mind that in reality they're on the same side of the Equator and separated only by a geologically very young desert.

Why does the possibility of any kind of relationship between Egypt and West Africa threaten you? Do you have something against West African people that motivates you to sever any ties with the most famous civilization on the whole continent?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
No Afro Americans are not AS closely
related to Egyptians like some peoples of the Sudan. However like ancient
Egyptians, they share a common origin deriving in
tropical Africa, and certain DNA markers in a broad
sense such as Haplogroup E. Their common tropical
origin is reflected in how African Americans cluster
with ancient Egyptians on limb proportion measures.
And the people closest to ancient Egyptians are
not "Middle Easterners" but their cousins, the Nubians,
as credible scholars show.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neferefre:
"The Colchians, Ethiopians and Egyptians have thick lips, broad nose, woolly hair and they are burnt of skin." -- Herodotus, 450 BC

Just thought I should post this, since this post calls for it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neferefre:
"The Colchians, Ethiopians and Egyptians have thick lips, broad nose, woolly hair and they are burnt of skin." -- Herodotus, 450 BC

Just thought I should post this, since this post calls for it.

---

Indeed. As late as Herodotus time, before all the foreign invasions of Ancient Kemet, it was easy to identify the ethnic affiliation of Ancient Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neferefre:
"The Colchians, Ethiopians and Egyptians have thick lips, broad nose, woolly hair and they are burnt of skin." -- Herodotus, 450 BC

Just thought I should post this, since this post calls for it.

---

Indeed. As late as Herodotus time, before all the foreign invasions of Ancient Kemet, it was easy to identify the ethnic affiliation of Ancient Egyptians.

---

this is a fake quote, Herodotus never mentioned the the lips and noses of the Colchinas
Dr. Ben made that part up

---

You're right the exact quote is:

Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have wolly hair, which certainly amounts to little, since several other nations are so too; but further and more especially, on the circumstances that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practiced circumcision from the earliest times.
- Herodotus (Father of History)
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
Another interesting quote about the Colchians origin in relation to the Ancient Kemites. It mentions that there's archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century (Bantu-like):

The origins of the Colchian tribes remain a mystery to this day. The fifth-cntury B.C.E. Greek historian Herodotus claimed that the Colchians had black skin and wolly hair, which some scholars have interpreted to means that the Colchians were Africans, possibly Bantus. Others have interpreted Herodotus's text to indicate that the Colchians were Egyptians, possibly a community that remained from an Egyptian expedition to the Caucasus sent by Pharaoh Sesostris, who ruled in the 19th century B.C.E. No evidence of this event has been found, although there is some archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century C.E. Apollonius of Rhodes wrote that the Colchians, along with the Egyptians and Ethiopians, invented the notion of circumcision, and Herodotus described their fine linen products, made in the unique Egyptian style, which further supports East African origins claim.

- Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania By Barbara A. West
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
However the ancient egyptians were not west/central/south africans!" no element of truth to it" especially that Pan-African Egypt bullshit!

^^Ancient Egypt was established by tropical Africans
from south of the Sahara, related to other tropical
Africans west, central, south by DNA, dental, cranial
and skeletal data. Your claim fails.






 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Another interesting quote about the Colchians origin in relation to the Ancient Kemites. It mentions that there's archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century (Bantu-like):

The origins of the Colchian tribes remain a mystery to this day. The fifth-cntury B.C.E. Greek historian Herodotus claimed that the Colchians had black skin and wolly hair, which some scholars have interpreted to means that the Colchians were Africans, possibly Bantus. Others have interpreted Herodotus's text to indicate that the Colchians were Egyptians, possibly a community that remained from an Egyptian expedition to the Caucasus sent by Pharaoh Sesostris, who ruled in the 19th century B.C.E. No evidence of this event has been found, although there is some archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century C.E. Apollonius of Rhodes wrote that the Colchians, along with the Egyptians and Ethiopians, invented the notion of circumcision, and Herodotus described their fine linen products, made in the unique Egyptian style, which further supports East African origins claim.

- Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania By Barbara A. West

---

the ancestors of white caucasians were black caucasians?

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Another interesting quote about the Colchians origin in relation to the Ancient Kemites. It mentions that there's archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century (Bantu-like):

The origins of the Colchian tribes remain a mystery to this day. The fifth-cntury B.C.E. Greek historian Herodotus claimed that the Colchians had black skin and wolly hair, which some scholars have interpreted to means that the Colchians were Africans, possibly Bantus. Others have interpreted Herodotus's text to indicate that the Colchians were Egyptians, possibly a community that remained from an Egyptian expedition to the Caucasus sent by Pharaoh Sesostris, who ruled in the 19th century B.C.E. No evidence of this event has been found, although there is some archeological and textual evidence for a black population in the Caucasus in the fourth century C.E. Apollonius of Rhodes wrote that the Colchians, along with the Egyptians and Ethiopians, invented the notion of circumcision, and Herodotus described their fine linen products, made in the unique Egyptian style, which further supports East African origins claim.

- Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania By Barbara A. West

---

the ancestors of white caucasians were black caucasians?
[/URL]

---

At least, you have a sense of humor the lioness.

My quote just provides further possibilities of an Ancient Egyptian colony in the Caucasus/Colchian area (postdating Europeans expansion in Europe obviously ). It also gives credential to Herodotus contemporary assessment of them as being black with wolly hair like the Ancient Egyptians and Ethiopians. Now even genetics is catching up to those facts (Ramses III, 18th Dynasty mummies analysis).
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
It isn't surprising that Ramesses III had an E Y-haplogroup lineage since that is the most common haplogroup in Egypt today. But just like modern Egyptians have a high pecentage of Middle Eastern mtDNA it's very likely the ancient Egyptians did as well. So it wouldn't surprise me if Ramesses III had a Middle Eastern mtDNA lineage.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
It isn't surprising that Ramesses III had an E Y-haplogroup lineage since that is the most common haplogroup in Egypt today. But just like modern Egyptians have a high pecentage of Middle Eastern mtDNA it's very likely the ancient Egyptians did as well. So it wouldn't surprise me if Ramesses III had a Middle Eastern mtDNA lineage.

---

That's more like wishful thinking than anything else.

While I was not surprised because I always knew Ancient Egyptians, not modern Egyptians, were black Africans thus a relatively high probability of being E1b1a. Some seemed surprised that it was E1b1a (not just E but E1b1a specifically). Decades of lying to themselves about the ethnic identity of Ancient Egyptians does that.

The recent DNA Tribe study also shows that Ramesses III and son were genetically related mainly to black Africans ethnic groups (Southern, Central and West Africans).

It's crazy to compare the genetic profile of modern Egypt after multiple foreign invasions, occupations and migration with the genetic profile of Ancient Egypt which was like 5000 years ago.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You speak as if there are no modern Egyptians that are black.






Besides, regardless of color or physical appearance the African lineages still remain.



^ Note the frequency E lineages among 'Arab' Egyptians!
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"It's crazy to compare the genetic profile of modern Egypt after multiple foreign invasions, occupations and migration with the genetic profile of Ancient Egypt which was like 5000 years ago."

-Amun-Ra The Ultimate

Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages. Despite the invasion of Islam into Egypt Y-haplogroup E is 65% of the population. Is it just me or is Ramesses III's STRs much different than that of the 18th dynasty. Could be a different haplogroup.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ponsford:

It is important to note that a European Y chromosome most definitely R1b was used as a "control" in ascertaining Ramesses111 E1b1a hap group. I suspect the same thing was done during King Tut's study and this is what caused the confusion with the R1b hap group on the Discovery Channel screen and people assumed it was King Tut.

---

This was exactly what happened when Tut's DNA was tested. But try telling this to Clyde Winters. As soon as the Euroloons posted the lie that Tut was R1b based on that one photo, the fool reacts by searching for African origins of R1b! LMAO Not to say he is necessarily wrong since underived R1* does exist in significant frequencies in West Africa as well as derived R1 clades not found in Eurasia. The point is, only a naive minded person would quickly drink the tainted koolaid of the Euronuts and then desperately try to come up with a better flavor.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You speak as if there are no modern Egyptians that are black.

---

quote:

---

The present day genetic structure of Egypt might also have been influenced by later expansions
in the Mediterranean and Near East. These included the large empires of the ancient world that integrated
multiple cultures (primarily of West Asia), such as the Achaemenid and Macedonian empires (both
known for religious tolerance). Similarly, the Arab migrations of the medieval period began in the Hejaz
(the Arabian Peninsula adjacent to the Red Sea), and might have increased Egyptian contacts with
neighboring populations of North Africa and the Near East.

All of these migrations (see Figure 1) might have influenced the present day genetic structure of Africa and Eurasia (including Egypt). For this reason, present day DNA matches in the following geographical analysis might to some degree reflect these population movements that took place after the time in Ramesses III.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Not to mention that as long as we have the STR data directly from ancient Egyptian remains, any speculation based on the modern population's Y-chromosome lineages are moot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Not to mention that as long as we have the STR data directly from ancient Egyptian remains, any speculation based on the modern population's Y-chromosome lineages are moot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

---

non-Black suspect, shadow lighting

---

Oh yes, his chocolate complexion is only due to the shadow but as soon as there is better lighting, his complexion will be lighter. LOL @ this dumb twit.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

---

non-Black suspect, shadow lighting

---

Oh yes, his chocolate complexion is only due to the shadow but as soon as there is better lighting, his complexion will be lighter. LOL @ this dumb twit.

---

^^^ these are black people?
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Citations?

-Swenet

Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.

Citations? You know this is common knowledge.

---

quote:

---

Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group. Mantel tests reveal a strong correlation between genetic and linguistic structures (r =0.31,P =
0.007), and a similar correlationbetween genetic and geographic distances (r = 0.29, P = 0.025) that appears after removing nomadic pastoralists of no known geographic locality from the analysis. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former.

---

quote:

---

Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.

---

quote:

---

The non-African component,
which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa,
which we estimate to have occurred ~3 thousand years ago (kya).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
(it gets too heated...)
(thinks it might be better to think twice)
(Packs bags.. and jumps ship...)
(...Silence...)
(cricket chirp, cricket chirp...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Citations?

-Swenet

Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.

Citations? You know this is common knowledge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
rainingburntice

Man Ice, Whats wrong with you? You are so obsessed with Africa, an Place that Original Man Live that you want to cling on to some Fantasy that AE were linked to Euros? An people that is probably the Youngest of Gods Children. That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African, Meaning No LINKS to Europe yet you want to dream that Ramses Mtdna will come out MiddleEastern thinking then Euros can Claim an part of Africa they Have NO PLACE in? Excuse me while I laugh BAHAHAHAHA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
rainingburntice

Man Ice, Whats wrong with you? You are so obsessed with Africa, an Place that Original Man Live that you want to cling on to some Fantasy that AE were linked to Euros? An people that is probably the Youngest of Gods Children. That you Ignore that Ramses was an E1b1a African, Meaning No LINKS to Europe yet you want to dream that Ramses Mtdna will come out MiddleEastern thinking then Euros can Claim an part of Africa they Have NO PLACE in? Excuse me while I laugh BAHAHAHAHA.

---

Actually I don't think the people we routinely call "Euronuts" all want Egyptians to look European. Most of them are content with a "Semitic" or Southwest Asian identity for Kemet. What they really care about is dissociating Egypt from so-called "True Negro" sub-Saharan Africans. As long as the establishment links Egypt to anyone other than black people, our opponents are content.

Honestly, I still don't know why people are still hostile to the idea of a Black African Egypt. Even the guys who acknowledge (geographically) sub-Saharan civilizations like Great Zimbabwe or Mali draw a line at Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Oh pardon me for actually having a life, you really have to stop and think that not everyone eats, sleeps, and sh@!s in front of their computer like you do. LOL!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Actually the foreign invasions in historical times would have put more Y-DNA lineages than mtDNA lineages. Besides all anthropologists agree that the modern Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages.

---

Citations?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Citations?

-Swenet

Hey I'm just saying don't speak too soon they haven't typed his mtDNA yet and you won't want to be dumbfounded if it does turn up Middle Eastern, because whether you like it or not there was significant gene flow from the Middle East into Africa during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic and there was also moderate gene flow during the Neolithic. So why be so biased? Keep an open mind about it. The frequency of Middle Eastern mtDNA in Egypt wouldn't be so high unless it was there in ancient Egypt the same goes for Y Hg E. By the way it is also possible that Setnakhte, founder of the 20th Dynasty, was an usurper.

Citations? You know this is common knowledge. [/qb]

---

I don't give squat about Ramses III's mtDNA, or even his Y chromosome, for that matter. This is all a peek into the genetics of the (early) Ancient Egyptian population. That's what I'm really after. Not necessarily the genetics of some king from a dying era, whom I don't even particularly admire. I leave that to you Euronuts who want to feel validated by being under the illusion that specific kings from other continents have a connection to you.

As far as the date of entry of these Eurasian lineages, I don't know anything about what you profess is ''common knowledge''. By avoiding the issue, I'll just take it to mean that you were just referring to imaginary data when you said ''Egyptians aren't much different than the ancient population with historic migrations only contributing to no more than 10% of the lineages''.

In the meantime, what I DO know, is this:

quote:

---

Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group. Mantel tests reveal a strong correlation between genetic and linguistic structures (r =0.31,P =
0.007), and a similar correlationbetween genetic and geographic distances (r = 0.29, P = 0.025) that appears after removing nomadic pastoralists of no known geographic locality from the analysis. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former.

---

--Hassan et al, 2008

And what I also know is this:

quote:

---

Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed.

---

The finding of Yap, and particularly, F-M89, in late dynastic Kushite aDNA fits nicely with what you're about to read below, since we know markers within both parahaplogroups, when found in tandem in Nilo-Saharan speakers, hint at admixture with Semetic and/or Cushitic speakers (also see the excerpt from Hassan 2008 above), just like how the latter two populations were the intermediaries for F-M89 haplogroups in Omotic speakers:

quote:

---

The non-African component,
which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa,
which we estimate to have occurred ~3 thousand years ago (kya).

---

--Pagani et al, 2012

What were you saying again, about some sort of a consensus among Anthropologists, regarding the early date of entry for most Eurasian lineages in the Nile Valley?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Read again until you can comprehend it.....That's right I didn't ignore this I said it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today. Which also makes it likely that he had a Eurasian mtDNA haplogroup because that is quite common in Egypt today too. It's logic....Oh you might want to look that up in the dictionary!

---

Its not logic, its a deceptive ploy. YOU'RE the one who needs to read again what is being said, in particular, where King said Ramses III is E1b1a, not Pn2 or simply within the Pn2 clade.

Your ''logic'' is in fact, a fallacy, because E1b1a is not at all common in modern Egypt, Sudan or the wider immediate areas. By refusing to address E1b1a and bitching on and on about PN2, you indeed demonstrate that you don't like the results, like King said. You're ranting on and on about PN2, thinking no one is onto your ploy to marginalize Ramses III's rare in modern Egypt clade.

This has to be on of the more pathetic Euronut methods to cope with this emotionally distressing result: simply conflate E1b1a with a set of modern Egyptian haplogroups that ARE common in Egypt, and act this haplogroup prediction is ''nothing out of the ordinary''.


 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Even if you were busy, I was still right. Its STILL crickets. You're talking but you're not saying anything. Try again"

-Swenet

Oh your gonna pretend like you don't hear anything about Eurasian migrations. You know it's coming and you dread the day that a pharaoh is proven to have Eurasian DNA. All the Rameses study did was prolong your grief.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^You're pathetic. The only reason why someone would bring up Ramses III's potential Eurasian lineages in light of his y chromosome is because they find this result painful, and they want to get even. This potential scenario has no relevance whatsoever to this discovery, yet this is all you keep talking about like a retarded zombie.

You tried to marginalize <50% mtDNA L lineages in Chalcolithic Iberia, and you now try to marginalize E1b1a in Ancient Egypt. Both times you were called out for your b.s.. Back then alTakruri spanked you good, what makes you think you won't suffer the same fate now?
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"You're ranting on and on about PN2, thinking no one is onto your ploy to marginalize Ramses III's rare clade in modern Egypt."

-Swenet

I'm ranting. You know my logic is correct that's why you're getting so emotional about this, you're even projecting your ranting on me without realizing it. I'm gonna have fun with you. Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline and that's why you fear the scientist!
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"You tried to marginalize <50% mtDNA L lineages in Chalcolithic Iberia, and you now try to marginalize E1b1a in Ancient Egypt."

-Swenet

Your upset because you know it is marginal! Everything I'm saying here are the very things you can't face!
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline

---

quote:

---

In psychology, avoidance coping, or escape coping, is a maladaptive coping mechanism[1] characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor.[2] Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage.[3] Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem.[3]

---

 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"In psychology, avoidance coping, or escape coping, is a maladaptive coping mechanism[1] characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor.[2] Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage.[3] Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem."

-Swenet

None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional if you think Eurasian DNA is unlikely! Take your own advise!! LOL!
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
None of this applies to me because you're the one who's delusional

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today.

---

 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 
^ Obviously the mtDNA distraction is all they have left to cling onto their Caucasian Pharaohs fantasy. It doesn't matter if the autosomal data and possibly the Y-chromosome data too paint a contrary picture. One scintilla of remote Eurasian ancestry, even if it predates skin de-pigmentation in Euro-Arabian populations, will suffice for drainedbraincells' agenda.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry.
As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry.
As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

---

And Ancient Egyptians were Berbers? Note also that I never denied Eurasian ancestry for Ancient Egyptians, let alone late dynastic Egyptians. When you're instigating sh!t, at least make sure you do your homework, airhead.

You should pool resources and buy this book with acid-rain-melted-ice:


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Actually the E1b1a is of no importance as the Ramessides weren't even of the Royal bloodline

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry.
As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

Obviously the mtDNA distraction is all they have left to cling onto their Caucasian Pharaohs fantasy. It doesn't matter if the autosomal data and possibly the Y-chromosome data too paint a contrary picture. One scintilla of remote Eurasian ancestry, even if it predates skin de-pigmentation in Euro-Arabian populations, will suffice for drainedbraincells' agenda.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

For me, the real issue is not whether or not people have moved between Africa and geographically adjacent areas throughout the Upper Paleolithic and after. The real issue is whether the back-migrants you invoke resembled or had any genetic affinity to your ideal "Mediterranean Caucasians". Since discussions like this ultimately certain around phenotype, it doesn't suffice for you to mention back-migrations into Africa. You need to show that these back-migrations involved Caucasian-looking people.

I notice that your kind insist on Caucasians swamping the Nile Valley from Eurasia in the mists of prehistory, but don't show nearly the same enthusiasm for recorded historical migrations in the same direction. I for one would wager that the type of mass migration needed to demographically dominate any area would require technology and numbers not available in prehistoric times. Ergo, historically documented migrations make more sense than your hypothetical Cro-Magnon Caucasian conquerors.

---

The irony is that there are Sub-Saharans who carry 'Eurasian' type clades that are not recent but date from the early epochs you mentioned, yet the Euronuts are not in any rush to 'claim' these people. A perfect example would be West and Central Africans who carry y-chromosomal hg R. These individuals look no different from other members of their groups or neighbors who don't carry R in that they are stereotypically negroid! Yet they carry R lineages associated with Eurasians even though some of them carry downstream markers not found in Europe and it turns out Cameroonians show a high frequency of underived R1*. I also find it interesting that R1 itself dates to around the same time that mt hg U6 arose where it is found today predominantly in northwest Africa.

So either these clades are not Eurasian OR they arose in Eurasians who didn't look any different from the Africans who never left the continent when they back-migrated to Africa.

I tell the Euronuts to pick their poison.

quote:

---

Actually I don't think the people we routinely call "Euronuts" all want Egyptians to look European. Most of them are content with a "Semitic" or Southwest Asian identity for Kemet. What they really care about is dissociating Egypt from so-called "True Negro" sub-Saharan Africans. As long as the establishment links Egypt to anyone other than black people, our opponents are content.

---

quote:

---

Honestly, I still don't know why people are still hostile to the idea of a Black African Egypt. Even the guys who acknowledge (geographically) sub-Saharan civilizations like Great Zimbabwe or Mali draw a line at Egypt.

---

That's because there is still a deeply ingrained psychological bias against blacks in terms of significant history. Egypt as we know was not only the oldest and most advanced civilizations in the world, it was also one that was highly influential and helped shaped 'Western Civilization'. Thus it is unacceptable even anathema to many whites that such a civilization could be the product of blacks! It's just an unfortunate and shameful fact that racism is alive and well. That you, Truthcentric, as well as KING are white people who have no problem with this historical truth just gives me hope that the mental disorder that is racism will end someday. LOL
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
rainingburntice

People Listen to the Pig squeal? Bahahaha

He thinks that E1b1a is common in Egypt so he was not surprised that Ramses came out with that?

BUT WAIT

This is the same pathetic Euro who tries to sneak one of his lies ythrough hoping no one calls him on it.

Wanna know what I am saying of this bout?

Read The Pigs quote to me:

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
it doesn't surprise me that it turned out to be Y-Hg E since that is the most common haplogroup today .

Now if you are an novince, or know how these Trolls operate you may walk away thinking this pigs squeal was legit. Sadly he forgot to mention WHICH Hap e was Ramses. Ramses was Hap E1b1a NOT E1b1b like majority of Egyptians are. He lies to himself thinking Me, Truth, Swenet and Djeuhti won't call him on it.

I really find it pathetic that Euros are so desperate to cling on to Egypt that they CONVINCE themselves Eurasians genes will link them to Egypt through the Middle East. Then Came DNA TRIBE and Now HAWASS an known Black hater admit that Ramses the most Known pharoh to King Tut comes out Not only Majority black But more Central and West Africa NOT the Horn. So now they(racists) now have to scramble to keep there sanity and delusions that they are superior so now they pray MTDNA will work in there favors. Excuse me while I laugh Bahahahahah. Ice you have no shame and you squeal like the pig you show us you are.

hey Ice, Tell the Forum again how you KNEW ramses would Come out E1b1a and Not E1b1b. I want to respect you but you seem like an racist like salassain and others who love to Make Mutts of Africa and an pure Europe
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Indeed. Although there have been samples with notable E1b1a in Egypt and Nubia, the overall frequency of this haplogroup in the modern Egypto-Sudanese area is probably below 1%. But never mind facts, because this is Acid-Rain's idea of a ''common'' haplogroup. See the frequency of E1b1a in Egypt:



It will be interesting to see to which region modern Egyptian E1b1a Y chromosomes have the most affinity. That of Ramses III, or Niger Congo speakers. That should give an idea of the magnitude of the demographic changes that were involved, or, in other words, to what extent Egypt specific E1b1a has vanished, and to what extent it has been accommodated with more Niger-Congo affiliated E1b1a in historic times.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry.
As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
And Ancient Egyptians were Berbers? Note also that I never denied Eurasian ancestry for Ancient Egyptians, let alone late dynastic Egyptians. When you're instigating sh!t, at least make sure you do your homework, airhead.

---

quote:

---

More precisely, the
data show a genetic differentiation between North-Western and North-Eastern
Berber groups: populations from the Maghreb are related to European and Eastern
populations (from Siwa in Egypt) and share more affinities with East and Sub-
Saharans populations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:

Djehooti in the narmer palette thread suggested that the palette may represent a pre dynastic conquering of Western desert population Libyans to unify them as Egyptians.
Don't shoot the messenger

---

Yes, I do support the popular theory that the predynastic Delta was inhabited by Temehu Libyans, but what the hell does that have to do with Maghrebi genetics, you twit?! There you go using my (others) quotes to try to fit your silly and debunked agenda!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

^Indeed. Although there have been samples with notable E1b1a in Egypt and Nubia, the overall frequency of this haplogroup in the modern Egypto-Sudanese area is probably below 1%. But never mind facts, because this is Acid-Rain's idea of a ''common'' haplogroup. See the frequency of E1b1a in Egypt:



It will be interesting to see to which region modern Egyptian E1b1a Y chromosomes have the most affinity. That of Ramses III, or Niger Congo speakers. That should give an idea of the magnitude of the demographic changes that were involved, or, in other words, to what extent Egypt specific E1b1a has vanished, and to what extent it has been accommodated with more Niger-Congo affiliated E1b1a in historic times.

---

Indeed, this also affirms the DNATribe findings of phraonic autosomal DNA which among certain alleles is also quite rare in modern Egypt. It looks like the picture of pharaonic Egypt's population is becoming clearer now much to the agony of the Euronuts and their mulattanutta associates.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"He thinks that E1b1a is common in Egypt so he was not surprised that Ramses came out with that?"

-KING

Liar, I never said E1b1a was common in Egypt. I said Y HG E is common in Egypt. I said I wasn't surprised to find that he was Hg E. As for Hg E1b1a it's presence in ancient Egypt agrees with archaeology. It is connected with the sorghum/millet/pottery complex. The highest frequency of E1b1a is in West Africa and the oldest pottery is found in Mali 9400 BC. From there this Nilo-Saharan culture moved east and is found at Nabta Playa 7000 BC.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Yet they carry R lineages associated with Eurasians even though some of them carry downstream markers not found in Europe and it turns out Cameroonians show a high frequency of underived R1*."

-Djehuti

Where in you're head did this idea crawl out of? They were R-V88 not R1*.

"So either these clades are not Eurasian OR they arose in Eurasians who didn't look any different from the Africans who never left the continent when they back-migrated to Africa."

-Djehuti

Those people that are haplogroup R-V88 in sub-Saharan Africa were at least 90% mtDNA Hg L they're not the same as the people that migrated from Eurasia in the Holocene.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"It doesn't apply to you because it applies to me?"

-Swenet

Are you that slow? Here I'll write it again, None of this applies to me, because, you're the one who's delusional. How is that so hard to understand, but of couse it probably is for you since your the one that's in denial. You're above quote is twisted to mean what you want it to mean. I'll bet all the books in your library are dummy books too by the way! LOL!
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
"It doesn't apply to you because it applies to me?"

-Swenet

Are you that slow? Here I'll write it again, None of this applies to me, because, you're the one who's delusional. How is that so hard to understand, but of couse it probably is for you since your the one that's in denial. You're above quote is twisted to mean what you want it to mean. I'll bet all the books in your library are dummy books too by the way! LOL!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djeshuti:
^ Indeed, ignorance seems to be rampant lately with these findings so shocking to the Euronuts and their cronies.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]
Djehooti in the narmer palette thread suggested that the palette may represent a pre dynastic conquering of Western desert population Libyans to unify them as Egyptians.
Don't shoot the messenger

---

Yes, I do support the popular theory that the predynastic Delta was inhabited by Temehu Libyans, but what the hell does that have to do with Maghrebi genetics, you twit?! There you go using my (others) quotes to try to fit your silly and debunked agenda!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
-KING
Liar, I never said E1b1a was common in Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
I said I wasn't surprised to find that he was Hg E. As for Hg E1b1a it's presence in ancient Egypt agrees with archaeology. It is connected with the sorghum/millet/pottery complex.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
The highest frequency of E1b1a is in West Africa and the oldest pottery is found in Mali 9400 BC. From there this Nilo-Saharan culture moved east and is found at Nabta Playa 7000 BC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
"GOD DAYYUM, BOY YOU STUPID!!!!!!!!

BTW if E1b1a people domesticated Sorghum and Millet in West Africa, why doesn't proto-Niger Congo (whose speakers have the highest and most diverse E1b1a) have any linguistic reconstructions dealing with agriculture?"

-beyoku

Do you call everyone stupid that you can't refute? I realize that it's second nature for bozo's like you to call people stupid who make you aware of facts you just can't seem to face, but I can't help you with that, go see a shrink! By the way, no language group owns any particular haplogroup 'genius'! And some actually consider Nilo-Saharan Languages as a descendant of Niger-Congo. What's so impossible about E1b1a being linked to West African Neolithic cultures?

---

DAYUM BOY YOU DUMB!!!!!!!!!

I have see it all............First you are going to take some of my own personal writings, recycle them down to a soundbyte and then try to argue it against me. There is nothing to refute because I would arguing with myself. Where do you think you got your information from???

Since I actually wrote what you are talking about I know all the caveats and the details. But if you are really well read on these ideas then you are going to have to explain how E1b1a "West Africans" are practicing agriculture yet the descendats of E1b1a "West Africans" have no agriculture terms in their proto language. You are also going to have to explain how E1b1a "Nilo-Saharans" in West African can migrate East and leave little no NO trace in the contemporary Nilo-Saharan descendants.... particularly the CORE Nilotic inhabitants of the Upper Nile. Please explain how your idea is supported by MTDNA lineage and or Autosomal evidence?

Good luck.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"DAYUM BOY YOU DUMB!!!!!!!!!

I have see it all............First you are going to take some of my own personal writings, recycle them down to a soundbyte and then try to argue it against me. There is nothing to refute because I would arguing with myself. Where do you think you got your information from???

Since I actually wrote what you are talking about I know all the caveats and the details. But if you are really well read on these ideas then you are going to have to explain how E1b1a "West Africans" are practicing agriculture yet the descendats of E1b1a "West Africans" have no agriculture terms in their proto language. You are also going to have to explain how E1b1a "Nilo-Saharans" in West African can migrate East and leave little no NO trace in the contemporary Nilo-Saharan descendants.... particularly the CORE Nilotic inhabitants of the Upper Nile. Please explain how your idea is supported by MTDNA lineage and or Autosomal evidence?"

-beyoku

Despite all this babbling you still haven't refuted anything. My original statement still stands-no language group owns any particular haplogroup. And anyone migrating from West Africa is bound to have E1b1a no matter what language they are speaking. The frequency of E1b1a back then was overrum by E1b1b pastoralists just like every other Y Hg. Because of this E1b1a most likely didn't make up much of Ancient Egyptian DNA. Actually the E1b1a in Rameses III most likely had a Nubian source since from the 12th Dynasty on they were in control there.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
DAYUM BOY YOU DUMB!!!!!!!!!

---

^^repressed emotion from anthroscape
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Not outright, but that's where you were tacitly going with it, until I stopped your fallacy dead in its tracks."

-Swenet

Don't try to convince yourself that you're a pyschic now! LOL! Remember your just a hacker that lives in front of the computer 24 hrs a day nothing more, and also that your opinions are not shared by Egyptologists, who believe that the ancient Egyptians are the same as modern ones. If not then why aren't the modern Egyptians mostly Y Hg J like the Arabs, Assyrians, and Hyksos? If you think these people were bringing in Hg E1b1b then you're hopeless!

Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review" in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, eds. Black Athena Revisited. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1996.
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
^ Refute WHAT exactly? There is nothing to refute!
If E1b1a represent a Nubian lineage in Egypt please explain the lack of E1b1a in contemporary Nubians!

If E1b1a is Sudanese please explain the greater frequency of E1b1a lineages in Egypt vs that of Sudan where they seem totally absent?

You theory has HOLES because you didnt create it. You probably waiting on ABF to come back... hitting refresh over and over so you can swagger-jack the rest?
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"If E1b1a represent a Nubian lineage in Egypt please explain the lack of E1b1a in contemporary Nubians!"

-beyoku

E1b1a is more common in the Hausa than in Egyptians!
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
"If E1b1a represent a Nubian lineage in Egypt please explain the lack of E1b1a in contemporary Nubians!"

-beyoku

E1b1a is more common in the Hausa than in Egyptians!

---

Hausa are NOT Nubians.
Hausa are NOT even Ethnic Sudanese.

Hausa....like the Fulani in Sudan have only been there from a few hundred years at best. Both Ethnicities represent VERY recent migration from Western Africa.
WTF are you talking about?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Statue of Harwa in the Nubia Museum, Aswan

Statue of a Priest in the Nubia Museum, Aswan
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
I absolve myself from this discussion with Acid-Rain, until it says something that justifies stepping in and rediculing it again. I suspect this will happen soon, since Acid-Rain is dumber than a rock.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Hausa....like the Fulani in Sudan have only been there from a few hundred years at best. Both Enicities represent VERY recent migration from Western Africa."

-beyoku

Yes, Sudan has had very recent migrations that have changed the genetic landscape there (Hg J 74-17%) but not in Egypt that's the whole point-this is also what you keep avoiding! MODERN EGYPT IS THE SAME AS THE ANCIENTS! Did it sink in yet! Your opinion of a population replacement is not supported by the very genetic evidence you are also using. E1b1a would originally have been more common in Sudan than in Egypt before the influx because the Sahel allows more migration than would a desert. If you look at a map of the spread of the Early Neolithic from the oldest pottery in Mali 9400 BC you can see that it spreads to the east and then shows up at Nabta Playa(Egypt)7000 BC. Tell me your not that slow! It would also help if you had more than a GED!
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"I absolve myself from this discussion with Acid-Rain, until it says something that justifies stepping in and rediculing it again. I suspect this will happen soon, since Acid-Rain is dumber than a rock."

-Swenet

Is this how you're going to snake your way out of confronting this:


"If not then why aren't the modern Egyptians mostly Y Hg J like the Arabs, Assyrians, and Hyksos? If you think these people were bringing in Hg E1b1b then you're hopeless!"

You don't like that genetic evidence when when it goes against your opinions do you?
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Is this how you're going to snake your way out of confronting this:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:

"Yet they carry R lineages associated with Eurasians even though some of them carry downstream markers not found in Europe and it turns out Cameroonians show a high frequency of underived R1*."

-Djehuti

Where in you're head did this idea crawl out of? They were R-V88 not R1*.

"So either these clades are not Eurasian OR they arose in Eurasians who didn't look any different from the Africans who never left the continent when they back-migrated to Africa."

-Djehuti

Those people that are haplogroup R-V88 in sub-Saharan Africa were at least 90% mtDNA Hg L they're not the same as the people that migrated from Eurasia in the Holocene.

---

quote:

---

MODERN EGYPT IS THE SAME AS THE ANCIENTS! Did it sink in yet! Your opinion of a population replacement is not supported by the very genetic evidence you are also using. ! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:

And why would Libya not be part of Mahgreb genetics?

---

Modern Libya is part of the Maghreb, but the Libyan deserts of western Egypt is NOT you moron. Even modern Libyans, particularly the east and southeast show more affinities with northeast Africa than with the Maghreb, but of course you are ignorant about all this.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"R1* is found in Cameroonians and other Central Africans as well as R-V88. These findings were discussed in past threads and I'm too lazy at the moment to direct you to them, so I suggest you find them on your own. R1* in Africa has been shown to have it's highest frequency in West Africa and second to that in Egypt. Outside of Africa, R1* has it's highest frequency in Oman."

And then there is also hg T which is dispersed throughout East Africa with it's highest frequency in the Horn, particularly in Djibouti and Somalia, yet is rare in Arabia. In fact, the greatest frequency of T in Eurasia is in northeast India. hg K is also found in low levels throughout East Africa.


-Djehuti

The R1* of the earlier studies has now been shown to be R-V88. And that's why you're "too lazy" to cite the sources. India has the highest frequency of Hg T anywhere not just Eurasia. Hg T is known to have originated in the Middle East and spread from that region to India and the Horn.

"By the way, like Keita I question the semantics of the 'Eurasian' label for these clades even if they originated in Southwest Asia. Southwest Asia is right next to Africa and judging from the skeletal remains, the peoples in which these clades developed did not look any different from the Africans next door. So the division between 'Eurasian' and 'African' rather subjective don't you think?"

-Djehuti

They are Eurasian clades because they developed in isolation from the lineages of Africa, and the skeletal evidence shows that these people were different from the people of Africa at the times in question. Otherwise they could not be distiguished as Proto-Mediterraneans if they were all the same. There could not have been any close relationship skeletally with Eurasians and Africans since other than the OOA migration 65ka ago there was only one other significant migration from that region which was much later in time c. 9000 BC, the migration of the Harifian culture which is the source of the E-M78 lineages in the Levant.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Please then explain the similarities between this...and this..."

-beyoku

You can't use the autosomal DNA evidence of a few pharoahs and claim that their was a complete population replacement of the entire country. That's very elementary of you! Besides Y and X lineages are independent of any autosomal alleles. Also, no matter what migration it was that brought E1b1a to East Africa the fact remains it came from the west either from the Early Neolithic or even the Bantu migration the highest frequency and DIVERSITY of E-V38 is found in West Africa.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"You're too dumb too read. What I said was that the prospect of Egyptians inheriting E1b1b from certain Arabs and Levantines was greater than the prospect that they inherited it from Nilo-Saharans."

-Swenet

I'm not even talking about that. I was referring to your theory of a population replacement of Egypt. Since the modern populations of Egypt have at least 65% of Hg E and you claim that invading armies (where male lineages would have predominated) have changed the genetic landscape, why does Hg J have such a low frequency. The fact is, is that the modern phylogeny of Egypt disproves a population replacement! All the lineages that are there now except for the modern Hg J lineages have been there since ancient times!
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
"Please then explain the similarities between this...and this..."

-beyoku

You can't use the autosomal DNA evidence of a few pharoahs and claim that their was a complete population replacement of the entire country. That's very elementary of you! Besides Y and X lineages are independent of any autosomal alleles. Also, no matter what migration it was that brought E1b1a to East Africa the fact remains it came from the west either from the Early Neolithic or even the Bantu migration the highest frequency and DIVERSITY of E-V38 is found in West Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
I'm not even talking about that. I was referring to your theory of a population replacement of Egypt. Since the modern populations of Egypt have at least 65% of Hg E

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
why does Hg J have such a low frequency.

---

J is not low in Egypt, and J is not the only marker that tracks Middle Eastern gene flow. Restricting your tunnel vision to J, so you can make the Modern Egyptian paternal y-chromosomes less Eurasian isn't going to cut it. Additionally, there are many Egyptian Y chromosome samples that have profiles that are similar enough to Eurasians that they could easily be mistaken to actually CONSTITUTE a profile of some Eurasian population:



FAIL.
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"The markers employed by Lucotte et al are not that reliable...there should be more than...of which almost everything should be..."

-Swenet

No, let's not do this. I'm not going to argue about what should be or your opinions on data reliability. The evidence (studies) are the final word unless it is outdated. This is why you FAIL! You're so full of yourself you can't accept the evidence!

"...and J is not the only marker that tracks Middle Eastern gene flow."

-Swenet

Most of the Hg G is Neolithic because the Middle Eastern populations that had invaded Egypt post-Hyksos are now low in this haplogroup. And Hg T is known to have been present since the Mesolithic. The Hg R-V88 is also pre-Neolithic. And just to remind you once again modern scholarship DOES NOT side with your fringe theory of replacement, but with population continuity!
 

---

Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
 
"Explain the differences between the Autosomal profiles of so far 9 Mummies who have autosomes that CANNOT be found in Modern Egypt...........Unless you are matching them with sub Saharan refugees IN Egypt."

-beyoku

Again I'm citing X and Y chromosomal DNA evidence you can't use autosomal DNA data to nullify such evidence. The two are independent of each other.

"If E1b1a represent a Nubian lineage in Egypt please explain the lack of E1b1a in contemporary Nubians...If E1b1a is Sudanese please explain the greater frequency of E1b1a lineages in Egypt vs that of Sudan where they seem totally absent?"

-beyoku

First of all when I said it had Nubian origins I was refering to the time period of Rameses III, Sudan has had much more immigration from many sources that you cannot use it as a representative population of the 20th Dynasty. That's why Egypt has a very low but still discernable frequency because Egypt now is the same as it has been since the Neolithic.

"Explain how E1b1a "West Africans" are practicing agriculture yet the descendants of E1b1a "West Africans" have no agriculture terms in their proto language...Explain how E1b1a "Nilo-Saharans" in West African can migrate East and leave little no NO trace in the contemporary Nilo-Saharan descendants.... particularly the CORE Nilotic inhabitants of the Upper Nile."

-beyoku

Again I said anyone migrating from West Africa would be carrying E1b1a lineages I never said they should be the majority. From, Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies-Jared Diamond:

"Putting together direct archaeological evidence of crops with the more indirect linguistic evidence, we deduce that the people who were domesticating sorghum and millet in the Sahara thousands of years ago spoke languages ancestral to modern Nilo-Saharan languages."
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
No, let's not do this. I'm not going to argue about what should be or your opinions on data reliability.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
This is why you FAIL! You're so full of yourself you can't accept the evidence!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Again I'm citing X and Y chromosomal DNA evidence

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
Most of the Hg G is Neolithic because the Middle Eastern populations that had invaded Egypt post-Hyksos are now low in this haplogroup.

---

quote:

---

And Hg T is known to have been present since the Mesolithic.

---

quote:

---

The Hg R-V88 is also pre-Neolithic.

---

quote:

---

And just to remind you once again modern scholarship DOES NOT side with your fringe theory of replacement, but with population continuity!

---

It does side with my views. You're just too much of an airhead to understand the scholarship you speak of and too much of disgruntled Euronut to accept whatever bits of truth you do comprehend (which is next to nothing).

The Maghrebi componant detected by Henn et al 2012 is the only Upper Palaeolithic signal in Northern Africa, and its low in Egyptian Berbers, let alone Nile Valley Egyptians. The rest (shown below as colors other than light blue) represent way more recent admixture events that undermine your retarded Ancient Egypt = Modern Egypt fantasies:



^If my notion of population replacement, whether gradual or in otherwise, for a large portion of the Egyptian populace is so unsupported, explain these results. Other than their Maghrebi componant, which is ~20% in Modern Egyptians, where is the rest of their autosomal Upper Palaeolithic signal? Egypt was populated since way the light blue portion of their ancestry entered Northern Africa, and they have African mtDNA lineages to support this. Why was Henn et al 2012 unable to pick up on this segment of their genome? Explain, numbskull!
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:
"Explain the differences between the Autosomal profiles of so far 9 Mummies who have autosomes that CANNOT be found in Modern Egypt...........Unless you are matching them with sub Saharan refugees IN Egypt."

-beyoku

Again I'm citing X and Y chromosomal DNA evidence you can't use autosomal DNA data to nullify such evidence. The two are independent of each other.

"If E1b1a represent a Nubian lineage in Egypt please explain the lack of E1b1a in contemporary Nubians...If E1b1a is Sudanese please explain the greater frequency of E1b1a lineages in Egypt vs that of Sudan where they seem totally absent?"

-beyoku

First of all when I said it had Nubian origins I was refering to the time period of Rameses III, Sudan has had much more immigration from many sources that you cannot use it as a representative population of the 20th Dynasty. That's why Egypt has a very low but still discernable frequency because Egypt now is the same as it has been since the Neolithic.

"Explain how E1b1a "West Africans" are practicing agriculture yet the descendants of E1b1a "West Africans" have no agriculture terms in their proto language...Explain how E1b1a "Nilo-Saharans" in West African can migrate East and leave little no NO trace in the contemporary Nilo-Saharan descendants.... particularly the CORE Nilotic inhabitants of the Upper Nile."

-beyoku

Again I said anyone migrating from West Africa would be carrying E1b1a lineages I never said they should be the majority. From, Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies-Jared Diamond:

"Putting together direct archaeological evidence of crops with the more indirect linguistic evidence, we deduce that the people who were domesticating sorghum and millet in the Sahara thousands of years ago spoke languages ancestral to modern Nilo-Saharan languages."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rainingburntice:

-Djehuti

The R1* of the earlier studies has now been shown to be R-V88. And that's why you're "too lazy" to cite the sources. India has the highest frequency of Hg T anywhere not just Eurasia. Hg T is known to have originated in the Middle East and spread from that region to India and the Horn.

---

quote:

---

-Djehuti

They are Eurasian clades because they developed in isolation from the lineages of Africa, and the skeletal evidence shows that these people were different from the people of Africa at the times in question. Otherwise they could not be distiguished as Proto-Mediterraneans if they were all the same. There could not have been any close relationship skeletally with Eurasians and Africans since other than the OOA migration 65ka ago there was only one other significant migration from that region which was much later in time c. 9000 BC, the migration of the Harifian culture which is the source of the E-M78 lineages in the Levant.

---

LOL What do you mean developed in "isolation from the lineages of Africa"?!! ALL Eurasian lineages are DERIVED from African ones because that is where the human species originated, silly!! As for skeletal evidence showing any difference, exactly what evidence do you speak of??! Last time I checked all the skeletal evidence especially that in Southwest Asia, and particularly Arabia from which the alleged back-migration took place is NO different from that of Africans in that they are tropically adapted and even display so-called 'negroid' craniofacial form!! As for 'proto-Mediterranean', you do realize that Mediterranean proto or not is an invalid classification as all racial groups are. Proto-Mediterraneans were even postulated to originate IN Africa as per all the old authors who coined the term like Sergi, Seligman, and Smith! Even hardcore racists like Carletoon Coon admitted that 'proto-Mediterraneans' had "negroid tendancies"! LMAO

I suggest you take your confused ass here.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Don't think Acid-Rain will rear its head again, until more results come out that gets its panties up in a bunch. Yep, that's when these fartheads typically come out of their hiding.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
"ALL Eurasian lineages are DERIVED from African"

I thought you and Swenet, I'm sorry "mindovermatter", claimed it was only the Europeans that were derived? Weren't the Asian and African suppose to be underived "fundamental units"? lol
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL Speaking of fartheads rearing up out of their asses.

Anguishedofbeingdumb, welcome back. Though I see you still have Bowcock in your brain, not surprisingly. Let me break it down for you. ALL Eurasians are derived from Africa yes, because that is where humans originated. However in the case of Europeans, they show ADMIXTURE because not only do they have their own indigenous Eurasian lineages but recent ones that developed in Africa after their own Eurasian ones. We all know your real problem with this FACT is this means Euros like yourself have African admixture which bothers you greatly.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Exactly. See my post. These fartheads usually only come out of hiding to attack already established facts. Lo and behold, no more then 8 minutes after I submit that post, angstofbeingab!tch confirms the accuracy of what I said, by coming out of hiding to defend the thing that has been bugging her since the early days of ES.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
And what "established fact" did I deny Mindless?

"However in the case of Europeans, they show ADMIXTURE because not only do they have their own indigenous Eurasian lineages but recent ones that developed in Africa after their own Eurasian ones."

Same with Asians dumbass. lol
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anguishofbeing:
And what "established fact" did I deny Mindless?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingdumb:

And what "established fact" did I deny Mindless?

"However in the case of Europeans, they show ADMIXTURE because not only do they have their own indigenous Eurasian lineages but recent ones that developed in Africa after their own Eurasian ones."

Same with Asians dumbass. lol

---

Exactly what is the same as Asians?? The E lineages you Euros have, or the African HLA markers? Or would that be the Benin HBS (sickle cell)??! LMAO Pray tell what Asian population carries those genetic traits indicative of recent African ancestry??
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anguishofbeing:
And what "established fact" did I deny Mindless?

---

^Suck it easy, son!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingdumb:

And what "established fact" did I deny Mindless?

"However in the case of Europeans, they show ADMIXTURE because not only do they have their own indigenous Eurasian lineages but recent ones that developed in Africa after their own Eurasian ones."

Same with Asians dumbass. lol

---

Exactly what is the same as Asians?? The E lineages you Euros have, or the African HLA markers? Or would that be the Benin HBS (sickle cell)??! LMAO Pray tell what Asian population carries those genetic traits indicative of recent African ancestry??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingstupid:

Yeh, Asians have no recent African admixture because after Africans initially populated Asia they never went back there. lol Jackass.

---

Sarcasm aside, 'Asians' comprise a large geographic group. We know Southwest Asians have been affected by recent African admixture, but in the case of east Asians like Chinese whom YOU brought up, is there evidence of such??
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
WAHHAHAHAHA

Oh so now when your BS becomes too obvious you want to chop up separate "Asians" and "Asians". How very fuking scientific. HAHHAHAHAHA Is this willy nilly approach part of the "hard data" technique mindless spoke about. lol!!!! Priceless...
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL And exactly what b.s. are you referring too, you foaming mouth idiot?! What is so unscientific about "chopping up Asians". The label 'Asian' is based on the geographical term Asia.

Asia


Of course Europe is really part of Asia as well but Europeans (your folks) were the ones who sought to separate themselves from the rest of the continent and thus 'chop' themselves away. Of course modern geneticists like Sforza and Keita know such a division is merely political and does not reflect reality.

The reality is Europeans are Asians but received recent African admixture. The same is true with Southwest Asia. Both Europe and Southwest Asia are adjacent to Africa which is why their admixture is not surprising.

Now begone, buggered b|tch
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
don't even reply to anguishofbeing. He is an attention whore with zero information to contribute
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
He is an attention whore with zero information to contribute

---

 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
"Pray tell what Asian population carries those genetic traits indicative of recent African ancestry??" - Mary

"We know Southwest Asians have been affected by recent African admixture" - Mary

^^LOL!!!

Every time you try to cover your ass (for five fuking years!) you tie yourself in another knot. The more you reply is the more you expand your encyclopedia of fuk up statements Mary. Take Lioness' advice and ignore me, or do like mindlessovermatter and change your account name when the sht becomes too embarrassing. lol
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

don't even reply to anguishofbeing. He is an attention whore with zero information to contribute

---

LOL I realize that when the fool began to pollute my thread on ancient Egyptian marriage with his nonsense.

He is a whore alright, but I bet it's more than just attention when he's not trolling this forum and creeping in mens bathroom stalls.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Yeh Mary, listen to Lioness "she" knows what "she's" talking about. lol
 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 
BUMP

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The Maghrebi componant detected by Henn et al 2012 is the only Upper Palaeolithic signal in Northern Africa, and its low in Egyptian Berbers, let alone Nile Valley Egyptians. The rest (shown below as colors other than light blue) represent way more recent admixture events that undermine your retarded Ancient Egypt = Modern Egypt fantasies:



^If my notion of population replacement, whether gradual or in otherwise, for a large portion of the Egyptian populace is so unsupported, explain these results. Other than their Maghrebi componant, which is ~20% in Modern Egyptians, where is the rest of their autosomal Upper Palaeolithic signal? Egypt was populated since way the light blue portion of their ancestry entered Northern Africa, and they have African mtDNA lineages to support this. Why was Henn et al 2012 unable to pick up on this segment of their genome? Explain, numbskull!

---

Would I be correct in guessing that the green color in those graphs represents Arab ancestry that can be dated in large part to the Islamic conquests (at least for Egypt)?
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Henn et al are not clear on this, so I have no idea.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Henn, (Near East excerpts)

An opposite cline of ancestry appears to originate in the Near East [i.e. Qatari Arabs] and decreases into Egypt and westward across North Africa [k = 6, 8].

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1. Finally, the centered position of North Africans is explained by higher frequencies of West Eurasian lineages with respect to the African haplogroups, by the small frequencies of East Eurasian and M1 lineages, and by the presence of U6 haplogroup.

Haplogroup R0a, a sister clade of HV, oc- curs in populations from the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe. It was found in two Berbers from Asni and two Siwi.
J and T sister clades might have originated in the Near East ∼50,000 years ago, but they could have been re- cently introduced into Europe during the Neolithic ∼10,000 years ago (Finnila et al. 2001; Palanichamy et al. 2004; Richards et al. 2000). Haplogroup J is observed in popula- tions from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and NorthAfrica (Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Richards et al. 2000). It is not found in the Asni and Bouhria samples, whereas the Berbers from Figuig harbor five J1c, three J2, and three J2a mtDNAs, and the Berbers from Siwa show four J2 mtDNAs. The most numerous T sequences were observed in Bouhria (six T1a and one T2b) while the Figuig samples exhibited three T2 and the Siwa sample only one T1a mtDNA. Haplogroup T was not detected in Asni.
Eurasian U macrohaplogroup is subdivided into U1 to U9 (with the exception of U6 restricted to North Africa) and K lineages. U has an extremely broad geographical distribution and accounts for about 20% of European mtDNA sequences (Herrnstadt et al. 2002). In this study, it is represented by four haplogroups: U2, U3, U4 and U5. U2 can be found at low frequencies in populations of western Asia and the Caucasus. Here, it was observed only in the Berbers from Bouhria, by two subclades, U2b (1 sequence) and U2e (2 sequences). U3 is observed at 1.1% (U3a) and 1.3% (U3) in samples from Figuig and Siwa, respectively. This haplogroup has a frequency peak in the Near East (Achilli et al. 2007).

The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a com- mon ancestor. Two hypotheses are discussed: one would date these common origins in the Upper Paleolithic with the ex- pansion of anatomically modern humans, from the Near East to both shores of the Mediterranean Sea; the other supports the Near Eastern origin, but would rather date it from the Neolithic, around 10,000 years ago (Ammerman & Cavalli- Sforza 1973; Barbujani et al. 1994; Myles et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998)

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1.



________________________________________________________

It seems like then Siwa should have the highest Near East ancestry if I am understanding correctly.
I don't see a strong correlation with this other article:


The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool
of Berber Populations

C. Coudray

 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
^Haplogroup I is a descendent of suprahaplogroup F (encompassing haplogroup descendents G-T, see Figure 3).

Haplogroup F is thought to represent a second and later stage of human migration out of Africa 50 thousand years ago (kya)(see Figures 4 and 5).

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/12

http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929707624173-gr1.jpg
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ But what Lioness cited was mitochondrial DNA not Y-chromosomal.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Haplogroup F is thought to represent a second and later stage of human migration out of Africa 50 thousand years ago (kya)(see Figures 4 and 5).

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/12

http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929707624173-gr1.jpg

---

^Wnat scholar do they cite for the Hap F migration out?



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] Henn, (Near East excerpts)

An opposite cline of ancestry appears to originate in the Near East [i.e. Qatari Arabs] and decreases into Egypt and westward across North Africa [k = 6, 8].

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1. Finally, the centered position of North Africans is explained by higher frequencies of West Eurasian lineages with respect to the African haplogroups, by the small frequencies of East Eurasian and M1 lineages, and by the presence of U6 haplogroup.

Haplogroup R0a, a sister clade of HV, oc- curs in populations from the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe. It was found in two Berbers from Asni and two Siwi.
J and T sister clades might have originated in the Near East ∼50,000 years ago, but they could have been re- cently introduced into Europe during the Neolithic ∼10,000 years ago (Finnila et al. 2001; Palanichamy et al. 2004; Richards et al. 2000). Haplogroup J is observed in popula- tions from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and NorthAfrica (Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Richards et al. 2000). It is not found in the Asni and Bouhria samples, whereas the Berbers from Figuig harbor five J1c, three J2, and three J2a mtDNAs, and the Berbers from Siwa show four J2 mtDNAs. The most numerous T sequences were observed in Bouhria (six T1a and one T2b) while the Figuig samples exhibited three T2 and the Siwa sample only one T1a mtDNA. Haplogroup T was not detected in Asni.
Eurasian U macrohaplogroup is subdivided into U1 to U9 (with the exception of U6 restricted to North Africa) and K lineages. U has an extremely broad geographical distribution and accounts for about 20% of European mtDNA sequences (Herrnstadt et al. 2002). In this study, it is represented by four haplogroups: U2, U3, U4 and U5. U2 can be found at low frequencies in populations of western Asia and the Caucasus. Here, it was observed only in the Berbers from Bouhria, by two subclades, U2b (1 sequence) and U2e (2 sequences). U3 is observed at 1.1% (U3a) and 1.3% (U3) in samples from Figuig and Siwa, respectively. This haplogroup has a frequency peak in the Near East (Achilli et al. 2007).

The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a com- mon ancestor. Two hypotheses are discussed: one would date these common origins in the Upper Paleolithic with the ex- pansion of anatomically modern humans, from the Near East to both shores of the Mediterranean Sea; the other supports the Near Eastern origin, but would rather date it from the Neolithic, around 10,000 years ago (Ammerman & Cavalli- Sforza 1973; Barbujani et al. 1994; Myles et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998)

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1.

---

^^^ I made a mistake here all the above including text from top of my previous post is not Henn ir's all from

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations

C. Coudray1,*, A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni 2, J. M. Dugoujon1

___________________________________________________
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ And what does any of the above have to do with the topic of this thread??---
That Ramose III likely has E1b1a like many Sub-Saharan West Africans and Bantus!
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268


Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.


Zahi Hawass, egyptologist1, Somaia Ismail, professor of molecular biology23, Ashraf Selim, professor of radiology4, Sahar N Saleem, professor of radiology4, Dina Fathalla, molecular biologist3, Sally Wasef, molecular biologist5, Ahmed Z Gad, molecular biologist3, Rama Saad, molecular biologist3, Suzan Fares, molecular biologist3, Hany Amer, assistant professor of pharmacology6, Paul Gostner, radiologist7, Yehia Z Gad, professor of molecular genetics2, Carsten M Pusch, molecular biologist8, Albert R Zink, paleopathologist9

---

• Father: Sethnakhte
• Mother: Queen Tiy-merenese
• Wives: Isis, Titi, and Tiy
• Sons: Ramesses IV, Ramesses V, Amenhirkhopshef, Khaemwaset, Parahiremenef, Sethirhkopshef
• Daughter: Titi
• Son: Ramesses VI out of Isis

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Haplogroup F is thought to represent a second and later stage of human migration out of Africa 50 thousand years ago (kya)(see Figures 4 and 5).

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/12

http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929707624173-gr1.jpg

---

^Wnat scholar do they cite for the Hap F migration out?

---

They did not write that, but they show references in the foot notes.











http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707624173
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Ramses III

Ramses III, (died 1156 bce, Thebes, Egypt), king of ancient Egypt (reigned 1187–56 bce) who defended his country against foreign invasion in three great wars, thus ensuring tranquillity during much of his reign. In his final years, however, he faced internal disturbances, and he was ultimately killed in an attempted coup d’état.

Son of Setnakht (reigned 1190–87 bce), founder of the 20th dynasty (1190–1075 bce), Ramses found Egypt upon his accession only recently recovered from the unsettled political conditions that had plagued the land at the end of the previous dynasty. In the fifth year of his reign, a coalition of Libyan tribes invaded the western Nile River delta on the pretext that the pharaoh had interfered in their chief’s succession. The Libyans had in fact encroached upon Egyptian lands, a perennial problem during the 19th and 20th dynasties, and were soundly defeated in a battle in the western delta.

After two years of peace, another, more dangerous coalition, the Sea People, a conglomeration of migrating peoples from Asia Minor and the Mediterranean islands who had previously destroyed the powerful Hittite empire in Asia Minor and devastated Syria, advanced against Egypt by land and by sea. Ramses’ land army checked the enemy’s advance in southernmost Palestine, and the hostile ships were trapped after being lured into the waterways of the delta. Egypt averted conquest by the northerners, but two of the invading peoples settled on the coast of Palestine, between Gaza and Mount Carmel. The attempted invasion ended Egyptian pretensions to a Syro-Palestinian hegemony.

Two more years of peace ensued, but in Ramses’ 11th year a new coalition of Libyan tribes infiltrated the western delta. Compelled to wage yet another war, he defeated the Libyans after capturing their chief. After this final conflict, Ramses was able to finish his great funerary temple, palace, and town complex at Madīnat Habu, in western Thebes. He also built additions to Karnak, the great Theban temple complex, and encouraged trade and industry, dispatching a seaborne trading expedition to Punt, a land on the Somali coast of Africa, and exploiting the copper mines at Sinai and probably also the gold mines of Nubia, Egypt’s province to the south.

After a prosperous middle reign, administrative difficulties and conspiracy troubled Ramses’ last years. About year 28 of the king’s reign, the vizier of Lower Egypt was ousted because of corruption. A year later the workers employed on the royal tombs at Thebes went on strike because of delay in the delivery of their monthly rations. Only the intervention of the Upper Egyptian vizier, who had assumed responsibility for the whole country, ended the work stoppage.

Toward the end of Ramses’ reign, one of his secondary wives, seeking to place her son on the throne, plotted to assassinate the king. Written sources show that the coup failed and that the conspirators were successfully brought to trial. However, it remained unclear from the documents whether Ramses had survived the assassination attempt. The king’s mummy displayed no obvious wounds, and questions about his fate were left open to speculation for many years. In 2012 researchers announced that a CT scan had revealed a deep knife wound in the mummy’s throat, indicating that Ramses was indeed murdered by the conspirators. He died at Thebes in the 32nd year of his reign and was succeeded by the crown prince Ramses IV.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^
Ramses III + Unknown Man E = E1b1a (E-M2)

---

• Father: Sethnakhte
• Mother: Queen Tiy-merenese
• Wives: Isis, Titi, and Tiy
• Sons: Ramesses IV, Ramesses V, Amenhirkhopshef, Khaemwaset, Parahiremenef, Sethirhkopshef
• Daughter: Titi
• Son: Ramesses VI out of Isis

quote:

---

"Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and object of our scron is the very race to which we
owe our arts, sciences and even the use of speech."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Ramses III

Ramses III, (died 1156 bce, Thebes, Egypt), king of ancient Egypt (reigned 1187–56 bce) who defended his country against foreign invasion in three great wars, thus ensuring tranquillity during much of his reign. In his final years, however, he faced internal disturbances, and he was ultimately killed in an attempted coup d’état.

Son of Setnakht (reigned 1190–87 bce), founder of the 20th dynasty (1190–1075 bce), Ramses found Egypt upon his accession only recently recovered from the unsettled political conditions that had plagued the land at the end of the previous dynasty. In the fifth year of his reign, a coalition of Libyan tribes invaded the western Nile River delta on the pretext that the pharaoh had interfered in their chief’s succession. The Libyans had in fact encroached upon Egyptian lands, a perennial problem during the 19th and 20th dynasties, and were soundly defeated in a battle in the western delta.

After two years of peace, another, more dangerous coalition, the Sea People, a conglomeration of migrating peoples from Asia Minor and the Mediterranean islands who had previously destroyed the powerful Hittite empire in Asia Minor and devastated Syria, advanced against Egypt by land and by sea. Ramses’ land army checked the enemy’s advance in southernmost Palestine, and the hostile ships were trapped after being lured into the waterways of the delta. Egypt averted conquest by the northerners, but two of the invading peoples settled on the coast of Palestine, between Gaza and Mount Carmel. The attempted invasion ended Egyptian pretensions to a Syro-Palestinian hegemony.

Two more years of peace ensued, but in Ramses’ 11th year a new coalition of Libyan tribes infiltrated the western delta. Compelled to wage yet another war, he defeated the Libyans after capturing their chief. After this final conflict, Ramses was able to finish his great funerary temple, palace, and town complex at Madīnat Habu, in western Thebes. He also built additions to Karnak, the great Theban temple complex, and encouraged trade and industry, dispatching a seaborne trading expedition to Punt, a land on the Somali coast of Africa, and exploiting the copper mines at Sinai and probably also the gold mines of Nubia, Egypt’s province to the south.

After a prosperous middle reign, administrative difficulties and conspiracy troubled Ramses’ last years. About year 28 of the king’s reign, the vizier of Lower Egypt was ousted because of corruption. A year later the workers employed on the royal tombs at Thebes went on strike because of delay in the delivery of their monthly rations. Only the intervention of the Upper Egyptian vizier, who had assumed responsibility for the whole country, ended the work stoppage.

Toward the end of Ramses’ reign, one of his secondary wives, seeking to place her son on the throne, plotted to assassinate the king. Written sources show that the coup failed and that the conspirators were successfully brought to trial. However, it remained unclear from the documents whether Ramses had survived the assassination attempt. The king’s mummy displayed no obvious wounds, and questions about his fate were left open to speculation for many years. In 2012 researchers announced that a CT scan had revealed a deep knife wound in the mummy’s throat, indicating that Ramses was indeed murdered by the conspirators. He died at Thebes in the 32nd year of his reign and was succeeded by the crown prince Ramses IV.

---

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/490851/Ramses-III


THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

HISTORICAL RECORDS OF RAMSES III

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/saoc12.pdf

---

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 


Modern African spatial distribution of haplogroup E3a-M2 (E1b1a).

From Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Rosa et al. (2007)
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Hell, there are Old Kingdom pharaohs found to carry hg A as well as E2! Quite a contrast to the distribution of these haplogroups today.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Henn, (Near East excerpts)

An opposite cline of ancestry appears to originate in the Near East [i.e. Qatari Arabs] and decreases into Egypt and westward across North Africa [k = 6, 8].

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1. Finally, the centered position of North Africans is explained by higher frequencies of West Eurasian lineages with respect to the African haplogroups, by the small frequencies of East Eurasian and M1 lineages, and by the presence of U6 haplogroup...

---

quote:

---

Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .

- From: A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (2011)

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ Exactly what makes you think I deny the genetic unity of Africans??! Better yet what makes you think I'm a "Horn supremacist"??!!

I swear folks on this forum love to come to these bizarre conclusions about me for some reason. First Xyz accusing me of being a Hindu and now YOU with this nonsense!

Come now Amun-Ra I've had higher expectations for YOU but now it's like WTF??
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ Exactly what makes you think I deny the genetic unity of Africans??! Better yet what makes you think I'm a "Horn supremacist"??!!

I swear folks on this forum love to come to these bizarre conclusions about me for some reason. First Xyz accusing me of being a Hindu and now YOU with this nonsense!

Come now Amun-Ra I've had higher expectations for YOU but now it's like WTF??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

For one, I didn't just say horn, I also said north(east) African supremacist. You just seem so hell bent on talking about other haplogroups than E1b1a...

---

quote:

---

In fact, haplogroups which are rare in African people beside those from North Africa or admixed but more frequent in Eurasian/North African populations. While those haplogroups could be present in early Ancient Egypt, it is probably at a much lower frequency than African haplogroups (E,A,B/L,M1), considering current DNA results.

---

Yes, though note it was lyinass who brought up the whole allegedly 'Eurasian' i.e. modern haplogroups of North Africa in the first place! I was merely responding to it. And note the lyinass troll is enjoying the strife she seeks to wrought.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
note it was lyinass who brought up the

---

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
*bump*
 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] Henn, (Near East excerpts)

An opposite cline of ancestry appears to originate in the Near East [i.e. Qatari Arabs] and decreases into Egypt and westward across North Africa [k = 6, 8].

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1. Finally, the centered position of North Africans is explained by higher frequencies of West Eurasian lineages with respect to the African haplogroups, by the small frequencies of East Eurasian and M1 lineages, and by the presence of U6 haplogroup.

Haplogroup R0a, a sister clade of HV, oc- curs in populations from the Near East, the Caucasus, and Mediterranean Europe. It was found in two Berbers from Asni and two Siwi.
J and T sister clades might have originated in the Near East ∼50,000 years ago, but they could have been re- cently introduced into Europe during the Neolithic ∼10,000 years ago (Finnila et al. 2001; Palanichamy et al. 2004; Richards et al. 2000). Haplogroup J is observed in popula- tions from the southern Caucasus, the Near East, and NorthAfrica (Brakez et al. 2001; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Richards et al. 2000). It is not found in the Asni and Bouhria samples, whereas the Berbers from Figuig harbor five J1c, three J2, and three J2a mtDNAs, and the Berbers from Siwa show four J2 mtDNAs. The most numerous T sequences were observed in Bouhria (six T1a and one T2b) while the Figuig samples exhibited three T2 and the Siwa sample only one T1a mtDNA. Haplogroup T was not detected in Asni.
Eurasian U macrohaplogroup is subdivided into U1 to U9 (with the exception of U6 restricted to North Africa) and K lineages. U has an extremely broad geographical distribution and accounts for about 20% of European mtDNA sequences (Herrnstadt et al. 2002). In this study, it is represented by four haplogroups: U2, U3, U4 and U5. U2 can be found at low frequencies in populations of western Asia and the Caucasus. Here, it was observed only in the Berbers from Bouhria, by two subclades, U2b (1 sequence) and U2e (2 sequences). U3 is observed at 1.1% (U3a) and 1.3% (U3) in samples from Figuig and Siwa, respectively. This haplogroup has a frequency peak in the Near East (Achilli et al. 2007).

The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a com- mon ancestor. Two hypotheses are discussed: one would date these common origins in the Upper Paleolithic with the ex- pansion of anatomically modern humans, from the Near East to both shores of the Mediterranean Sea; the other supports the Near Eastern origin, but would rather date it from the Neolithic, around 10,000 years ago (Ammerman & Cavalli- Sforza 1973; Barbujani et al. 1994; Myles et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998)

Near Easterners are mainly associated with lineages HV, R0, J, N2, M, and N1.

---

^^^ I made a mistake here all the above including text from top of my previous post is not Henn ir's all from

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations

C. Coudray1,*, A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni 2, J. M. Dugoujon1

___________________________________________________

---

quote:

---

Generally, Tanzanians appear to have a high level of mtDNA genome diversity that is distributed among several mtDNA haplogroups that originated at different times in modern human history. These data suggest that populations in Tanzania have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.

[...]

These 2 M and N haplogroup clades included a few Tanzanians (belonging to haplogroups M1, M, N1, and J), suggesting possible recent gene flow back into Africa and/or that ancestors of the Tanzanian populations may have been a source of migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions (fig. 2B).

[...]

However, eastern African populations contain rare mtDNA haplogroups that may contain important clues in understanding modern human origins. Our analysis of mtDNA genomes provides relatively robust phylogenies and TMRCA estimates for these mtDNA haplogroup lineages. Moreover, the results of our study suggest several notable observations about the role of Tanzanians in the dispersion of modern humans and the history of African mtDNA haplogroups.

---

quote:

---

Although Haplogroup M differentiated
soon after the out of Africa exit and it is
widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and
India) and Oceania, there is an
interesting exception for one of its more
than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this
lineage is mainly limited to the African
continent with peaks in the Horn of
Africa."

---

quote:

---

“..the M1 presence in the Arabian
peninsula signals a predominant East
African influence since the Neolithic
onwards.“

---

quote:

---

No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with
their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."

[...]

Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
prefer to talk about M1 and U6.

---

Who are you to tell people what they can and can't
talk about? Who are you? Nobody here knows you from
a hole in the wall.

Thinking you can stroll in here and dictate to long
standing ES members like Djehuti and alTakruri what
they're supposed to talk about. Sit your dumbass
down, clown, because you have your standing in this
forum all the way phucked up.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
^^^ Another idiot who wants to talk about something else than Ramses III determined to be E1b1a, the subject of this thread. Typical.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies ( table 1 ⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a . The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker ( table 2 ⇓). Although the mummy of Ramesses III’s wife Tiy was not available for testing, the identical Y chromosomal DNA and autosomal half allele sharing of the two male mummies strongly suggest a father-son relationship.

From Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study

---

Both tables and text from: Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study


Distribution of E1b1a in Rosa 2007:

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Not to dissuade you from what seems to be your
one-man campaign to spread the gospel of Ramses
III's haplogroup in a message board where people
have gotten the memo a year ago, but, since its
the pink elephant in the room, I might as well
ask. Why are you so pre-occupied, to the point of
ad nauseam, with the following recurrent themes in
your posts:

--DNA Tribes' analysis of the Amarna family
--Ramses III is E1b1a
--"Africans are all genetically close"
--All African language families arose in East Africa
--(insert any obvious, established fact that people
have moved on from)
 

---

Posted by Ponsford (Member # 20191) on :
 
I do not think Ramsses111 Haplogroup and autosomal dna was highlighted by the mainstream media.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
People here generally post such findings when they
naturally come up in conversations or when there
are new developments. 9 times out of ten he stresses
or brings up already established facts for no apparent
reason other than to get his jollies off. That's
spamming and in principle no different from when
Ivanvansertimavindicated spammed the DNA Tribes
results all over the forum. You're making his cause
sound more noble than it is.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
*bump*
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ By the way, I forgot to point out in my rebuttal against your accusations against me. I was responding to Lyinass about hgs M, N, HV, etc. etc. But in my original post I made a reference to hgs A and E2 both of which are widespread in other areas of the continent than northeast Africa. E2 for example has high frequencies in Senegal and A high frequencies in South Africa, yet in your delusion I'm some how in favor of Egyptian relations to northeast Africans only and thus a northeast African 'supremacist'?!
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ By the way, I forgot to point out in my rebuttal against your accusations against me. I was responding to Lyinass about hgs M, N, HV, etc. etc. But in my original post I made a reference to hgs A and E2 both of which are widespread in other areas of the continent than northeast Africa. E2 for example has high frequencies in Senegal and A high frequencies in South Africa, yet in your delusion I'm some how in favor of Egyptian relations to northeast Africans only and thus a northeast African 'supremacist'?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Then I suggest you turn your ire toward lyinass, as that is something she does all the time!

By the way, I find it funny how the Ramessides are somehow held up to be quintessentially non-African or Near Eastern in looks yet look at their NRY profile.

I'm just waiting for more DNA results not only on the Ramessides but the other mummies as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ By the way, I forgot to point out in my rebuttal against your accusations against me. I was responding to Lyinass about hgs M, N, HV, etc. etc. But in my original post I made a reference to hgs A and E2 both of which are widespread in other areas of the continent than northeast Africa. E2 for example has high frequencies in Senegal and A high frequencies in South Africa, yet in your delusion I'm some how in favor of Egyptian relations to northeast Africans only and thus a northeast African 'supremacist'?!

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Then I suggest you turn your ire toward lyinass, as that is something she does all the time!

By the way, I find it funny how the Ramessides are somehow held up to be quintessentially non-African or Near Eastern in looks yet look at their NRY profile.

I'm just waiting for more DNA results not only on the Ramessides but the other mummies as well.

---

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Then I suggest you turn your ire toward lyinass, as that is something she does all the time!

---

quote:

---

By the way, I find it funny how the Ramessides are somehow held up to be quintessentially non-African or Near Eastern in looks yet look at their NRY profile.

I'm just waiting for more DNA results not only on the Ramessides but the other mummies as well.

---

We also got mummies from the 18th Dynasty royal family. It's almost even better because it's autosomal, so it takes into account all line of ancestry. Even Ramses III's E1b1a genetic profile was determined using both autosomal and y-str profile (as we can see it posted above or by reading the document).
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
I wonder how Hawass feels about these findings. I'm pretty sure he is not pleased to say the least and perhaps confused as well. This is the same guy who claims that he is a direct descendant of the pharaohs. LOL
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I wonder how Hawass feels about these findings. I'm pretty sure he is not pleased to say the least and perhaps confused as well. This is the same guy who claims that he is a direct descendant of the pharaohs. LOL

---

Don't forget the game is played on the field not on the sideline.

Maybe he meant descendant of the Hyksos (Aamu) pharaohs. Anyway, he's gone now, I presume all modern Egyptians got some indigenous African genes in them and thus share ancestry with Ancient Egyptians to some degree mediated by their level of ancient and recent foreign admixture (Assyrians, Greeks, Arab, etc).
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
What I find fascinating is that these DNA findings fly in the face of assumptions based on the physical appearance of the Ramessides based on cranial remains:

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/data7_files/data7.htm

The difference between late XVII and XVIII dynasty royal mummies and contemporary Nubians is slight. During the XVIV and XX dynasties we see possibly some mixing between a Nubian element that is more similar to Mesolithic Nubians (low vaults, sloping frontal bone, etc.), with an orthognathous population. Since the Ramessides were of northern extraction, this could represent miscegenation with modern Mediterraneans of Levantine type. The projecting zygomatic arches of Seti I suggest remnants of the **old Natufian/Tasian** types of the Holocene period.

It's interesting that P.K. Manansala notes similarities between the mesolithic Tasians of Egypt who preceded the Badarians and the Natufians of the Levant. I bring this up because not only did neolithic folks of the southern Levant carry E1b1b-EM34 but also R1*-M173 which is not only found among Egyptians but has its highest frequency in West Africa, specifically Cameroon!!

So this makes me wonder if E1b1a might also be found among so-called 'northern' types of the Levant.

I betcha if this was the case, the Euronuts would find some way to claim the clade as Eurasian (again)! LOL
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Exactly. Taking all the evidence into account, one
can hardly make the case that people who are today
most associated with E1b1a moved up the Nile 10-5000
years ago and adapted to the region there, in that
short time-span. Moreover, there'd be little
hot-dry climate to adapt to in that chronological
window, for obvious reasons. As you correctly
pointed out, Ramses III and his contemporaries
look even less like the proto-Egyptians and are
expected by then to look much more like Zoe
Saldana-toned Tuaregs, from various lines of
evidence.

Something has to give. Either Ramses III's E1b1a
is a very early off-shoot of E1b1a, enabling its
carriers in North Africa to gradually change to
have Ramses III and his contemporaries' phenotype
by the time of late dynastic Egypt, or he's like
some E1b1a carriers whose haplogroup is a poor
predictor of their autosomal affinity. There is also
the possibility that Ramses' E1b1a equals E-M329,
but that wouldn't change the problem, seeing as
E1b1a1 is unquestionably an ancient Egyptian
haplogroup, as evidenced by almost all modern
Egyptian Y-DNA samples, as well as the presence
of mtDNA correlates.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ This is precisely my point!-- That is these artificial divisions of Africa's populations into North vs. 'Sub-Sahara' or East vs. West obviously didn't mean squat and even clades prominent or even seemingly restricted to certain regions of Africa today was obviously not the case back then in ancient or even prehistoric times. This why I'm puzzled as to why Amun-Ra thought I was somehow northeast African centric despite the fact that Egypt IS a region in northeast Africa. I have NEVER divorced the region from the rest of the continent the way the Euronuts do!
 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
^Exactly. Taking all the evidence into account, one
can hardly make the case that people who are today
most associated with E1b1a moved up the Nile 10-5000
years ago and adapted to the region there, in that
short time-span. Moreover, there'd be little
hot-dry climate to adapt to in that chronological
window, for obvious reasons. As you correctly
pointed out, Ramses III and his contemporaries
look even less like the proto-Egyptians and are
expected by then to look much more like Zoe
Saldana-toned Tuaregs, from various lines of
evidence.

---

What lines of evidence would those be? The autosomal data as analyzed by DNA Tribes shows little if any sign that Ramses III and his son had significantly more Eurasian ancestry than the Amarna family. Certainly the MLI scores don't rank Sahelians or Horners as especially close to the Ramessids compared with Great Lakes or Southern Africans.

That by itself doesn't say much about their precise skin color, but given that both Zoe Saldana and Tuareg with her complexion are obviously mixed, I find it most curious that you cite them as phenotypic analogues to Ramses III and his dynasty.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Ramses III's phenotype in and of itself doesn't
leave much to draw conclusions from (it's not
that divergent), but when you include the
overall picture (him and his contemporaries), the
picture does get foggier, compared to the proto-
Egyptians. Taken together, the former have a
tendency to get progressively more ethnically
ambiguous. No doubt having something to do with
that the "Libyan" dynasties were right at their
doorstep.

As for the Zoe Saldana comment (click):


 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Ramses III's phenotype in and of itself doesn't
leave much to draw conclusions from (it's not
that divergent), but when you include the
overall picture (him and his contemporaries), the
picture does get foggier, compared to the proto-
Egyptians. Taken together, they have a tendency
to get progressively more ethnically ambiguous.
No doubt having something to do with that the
"Libyan" dynasties were right at their doorstep.

As for the Zoe Saldana comment (click):

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by centric:

... autosomal data as analyzed by DNA Tribes ...

... MLI scores don't rank ... Horners as especially close to the Ramessids compared with Great Lakes ...

---

.

I don't keep up on DNAtribes so much.
What is their difference between
Horners and Lakers? I mean what
populations are in each set?
 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 
These are the DNA Tribes results for Ramses III to refresh your memory:


DNA Tribes African Populations

Unfortunately the above link doesn't sort the populations into categories, but note from the Ramses III chart that the Horners and Sahelians rank below Africans with less Eurasian admixture in MLI similarity to Ramses et al.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Thx!
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
If those contracts come from the Ptolemaic period (as I infer from the Greek terminology), they postdate Ramses III by quite a few centuries. Do we know what kind of people were involved in these contracts?

And again, even if Ramses III and his contemporaries look less (stereotypically) "Negroid" than earlier Egyptians, that still doesn't explain the low Eurasian influence in the STR data. [/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Again, I'm not saying anything about Ramses III per se, but his post-New Kingdom contemporaries
in general. Also, I didn't mean to necessarily
invoke Eurasian; I'm just noting that the total
picture of Ramses III and his contemporaries
don't look like extant populations in which E1b1a
peaks and that there is a discrepancy (i.e. an
over-zealous, literal interpretation of the MLI
scores doesn't seem to jibe well with the fact
that Egypt by Ramses IIIs time, was phenotypically
different from the proto-Egyptians, and on its
way to gradually look like modern day Egyptians).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Hell, there are Old Kingdom pharaohs found to carry hg A as well as E2! Quite a contrast to the distribution of these haplogroups today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Ramses III's phenotype in and of itself doesn't
leave much to draw conclusions from (it's not
that divergent), but when you include the
overall picture (him and his contemporaries), the
picture does get foggier, compared to the proto-
Egyptians. Taken together, the former have a
tendency to get progressively more ethnically
ambiguous. No doubt having something to do with
that the "Libyan" dynasties were right at their
doorstep.

As for the Zoe Saldana comment (click):

---

Very interesting observation as well as source! I think we should discuss the topic of Egypt's population change during dynastic times as opposed to after further in a thread of its own. In the mean time, I question what makes you think this change comes from 'Libyans' as opposed to Levantine folks??

As far as "honey" type tones or complexions, I've always maintained that such complexions were far more common in Lower Egypt around the Delta. Indeed this is something stated by several Egyptologists in references to physical appearance of Egyptians, namely Gay Robins and Frank Yurco.





Though this is a first I've heard of it being common in Upper Egypt or at least an area of Upper Egypt, I'm really not that surprised since such complexions are not uncommon in areas as far south as Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Ethiopian women


Perhaps a better example than Zoe Saldana...

Liya Kebede


Though note that honey comes in shades other than the typical 'golden'.

In fact African honey can be quite dark.

African honey


Therefore, I find your source about an Upper Egyptian sepat which seems to emphasize "honey" complexions vs. "black" complexions with the latter being a "minority" somewhat misleading.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Indeed. Zoe Saldana is probably too light an example,
given the deep golden colour honey typically has,
which I now see, upon googling her, she doesn't
have. The distinction is not misleading; it's very
real. Other text from the same era apply an early,
color-based, form of True Negro concept and
Ptolemaic Upper Egypt and Nubians at the border
were not included in it, which I can see how local
observers would conclude that, given the other
evidence (including these contracts). I've looked
into these rare texts a long time ago and placed
them within the other data we have. The literal
interpretation of honey as simply meaning "golden"
is the most parsimonious and takes the least
effort to arrive at, as well as the least conflict
with other data. Sure, you can invoke a lot of
extra explanations but what are you doing at that
point? You're not looking at all the evidence,
which includes skeletal change (compared
to the earliest Egyptians), simultaneously.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Regardless, "honey", golden brown, or "caramel" is a complexion not unusual for pure Africans and need not be explained by foreign admixture. A perfect example of this would be Khoisan peoples of southern Africa. I have no doubt that similar complexions also evolved among the aboriginal populations of Northern Africa around the Mediterranean coast. Also, by "misleading" I meant that the authors could indeed be using the "true negro" definition wherein only those that have 'black' colored skin or complexions close to that color are truly 'black'. The examples of Ethiopians I gave should refute this notion. Of course that won't stop the Euronuts from claiming that such lighter tones are due to "admixture". But the DNA findings of modern Upper Egyptians as well as DNA Tribes findings of royal mummies should dispel such claims.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
That's the difference, I look at this textual data
in concert, with other lines of evidence so
I know for a fact that a straight forward inter-
pretation of these descriptions (i.e. a mixed popu-
lation by then) are warranted. Unless, of course,
you have a better way of synthesizing the data.
What is the "Late" sample, which is of a comparable
age as the descriptions in the Greek documents,
doing all the way on the other side of the plot,
for instance?


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ No, I don't disagree with what you're saying in regards to the late periods of pharaonic Egypt. I concur that there was a large influx of people in the country and therefore admixture, but I'm just asking you what you think is the source of this influx. You say it's Libyan, but what makes you say that??
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This is precisely my point!-- That is these artificial divisions of Africa's populations into North vs. 'Sub-Sahara'

---

quote:

---

As a consequence the many invasions of ancient Egypt, the population has changed over the years. There were Hyksos (Heka Khasut) from Asia, who melted into the Delta Region around 1500 B.C.E., and then a series of invasions by the Assyrians, Persians and Greeks. With the arrival of large groups of Arabians in the seventh century C.E., the racial character of Egypt began to change.

The resultant mixtures of Africans, Arabs, Greeks and Persians were to be jointed with Turks, Russians, Albanians, British, and French to create a different population that there had been during the ancient times.

One cannot say that today's Egypt is the same as the Egypt of antiquity anymore than one can say that today's North America is the same as it was 5000 years ago.

---

quote:

---

With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Immigrations during the late periods:

- In the Late Period , internationalism, migration, and trade are especially well documented, and immigration from Thrace and the Greek cities of Anatolia was facilitated by the establishment of Naukratis (attributed to the reign of Psammetichus I) and the use of Greek mercenaries, first against Nubia (Psammetichus II) and later against Persian rule.

- The descendants of Greek immigrants took Egyptian names and operated within Egyptian cultural practices[...]


Period of mass immigration:

- Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass immigration .

- Peaking in the third century BCE, immigration from the Mediterranean, the Black Sea coast, Asia Minor, and the Near East may have numbered into the hundreds of thousands and included foreign slaves and prisoners of war as well as economic migrants and military veterans.

- In Greek and Demotic sources, almost 150 different ethnic labels attest to the scale and geographic range of immigration and ethnic-group settlement (La’da 2003: 158 - 159)

- Greek was “the language of upward social mobility” (p. 105); the Egyptian language, as well as other cultural forms, changed both in relation to it and depending on the circumstances and interests of individuals and of social groups.

---

quote:

---

The Late Period is often singled out as the time when mass immigration into Egypt altered the character of the country

---

quote:

---

The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
If those contracts come from the Ptolemaic period (as I infer from the Greek terminology), they postdate Ramses III by quite a few centuries. Do we know what kind of people were involved in these contracts?

---

I don't know who in their right mind would use a Ptolemaic period papyrus to talk about Ramses III from the new Kingdom era. Between the 2 eras there's been quite a few foreign conquests and invasions. Pathyris itself is said to be a military colony (to prevent possible insurrection in Thebes).

This bring me to an interesting subject. Foreign immigrants often mixed with the local and became Egyptian(ized) in those late era (before too of course but at a lower scale), then turn to be considered as "locals" later on, by future conquerors and immigrants.


Here Apollonia is described as a local girl (to be married to a Greek military officer) but she was actually an egyptinianized immigrant from Cyrene. Her Greek family living there for 2 or 3 generations.

While interesting, especially for the ethnicity thread, none of this has anything to do with Ramses III. As mentioned, both the BMJ and the DNA Tribes genetic analysis point Ramses III and co to be more similar to modern Sub-Saharan African. Same thing with the 18th Dynasty Royal mummies. Suffice to say, it's no coincidences. Of course even indigenous Ancient Egyptians probably came from many different African lineages and haplogroups. The different people who settled along the Nile during the green Sahara desertification.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ No, I don't disagree with what you're saying in regards to the late periods of pharaonic Egypt. I concur that there was a large influx of people in the country and therefore admixture, but I'm just asking you what you think is the source of this influx. You say it's Libyan, but what makes you say that??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
If those contracts come from the Ptolemaic period (as I infer from the Greek terminology), they postdate Ramses III by quite a few centuries. Do we know what kind of people were involved in these contracts?

---

I don't know who in their right mind would use a Ptolemaic period papyrus to talk about Ramses III from the new Kingdom era. Between the 2 eras there's been quite a few foreign conquests and invasions. Pathyris itself is said to be a military colony (to prevent possible insurrection in Thebes).

This bring me to an interesting subject. Foreign immigrants often mixed with the local and became Egyptian(ized) in those late era (before too of course but at a lower scale), then turn to be considered as "locals" later on, by future conquerors and immigrants.


Here Apollonia is described as a local girl (to be married to a Greek military officer) but she was actually an egyptinianized immigrant from Cyrene. Her Greek family living there for 2 or 3 generations.

While interesting, especially for the ethnicity thread, none of this has anything to do with Ramses III. As mentioned, both the BMJ and the DNA Tribes genetic analysis point Ramses III and co to be more similar to modern Sub-Saharan African. Same thing with the 18th Dynasty Royal mummies. Suffice to say, it's no coincidences. Of course even indigenous Ancient Egyptians probably came from many different African lineages and haplogroups. The different people who settled along the Nile during the green Sahara desertification.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This is precisely my point!-- That is these artificial divisions of Africa's populations into North vs. 'Sub-Sahara'

---

The division is not artificial. It's a real historical division due to many millennium of foreign conquests, invasions and immigration especially during the late dynastic and post dynastic era.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Wasn't that done on the first pages?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The autosomes don't contain any Y-DNA information
(I'm sure you already know this, but just to prevent
confusion because some people in this thread have
stated that E1b1a was inferred from his autosomes).
Hawass et al 2012 includes both Y-DNA and autosomal
DNA.

Hawass 2012

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Do they make a statement in regards to their African
database sample size? These dbs tend to sleep on
wholes swathes of African regions, while European
and other regions are filled to the brim. I remember
that this exact problem got in the way of our efforts
to manually verify DNA Tribes analysis of the Amarna
STRs.

---

From YHRD:



As anticipated, the European region is brimming with
dots, while the African continent is only sparsely
covered. However, there are SSA samples,
including samples from regions where E1b1a is
known to peak. Does this lack of matches with the
few SSA samples in YHRD's database indicate that
Ramses IIIs E1b1a haplotype isn't as common in
SSA as some ideologues here on ES purport?
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No two people will have all the exact values
for any one complete YHRD haplotype. To find
matches anywhere near ancient haplotypes
necessitates backing down from the full
16 variables to the 7 loci variable of
DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ No surprise there. When it comes to most population studies conducted by Westerners, the populations that get the most sampling are ALWAYS Europeans. Thus, as Zarahan has stated too many times, this gives a "stacked decked" bias. What's more is the Saharan region from whence the Egyptians ancestors originated is the least sampled of all.

Speaking of which...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This is precisely my point!-- That is these artificial divisions of Africa's populations into North vs. 'Sub-Sahara'

---

The division is not artificial. It's a real historical division due to many millennium of foreign conquests, invasions and immigration especially during the late dynastic and post dynastic era.

---

I was referring specifically to dynastic and especially predynastic Egypt when North Africa was fertile and verdant!

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The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Egypt rapidly found a method of disciplining the river, the land, and the people to transform the country into a titanic garden. Egypt rapidly developed detailed cultural forms that dwarfed its forebears in urbanity and elaboration. Thus, when new details arrived, they were rapidly adapted to the vast cultural superstructure already present. On the other hand, pharaonic culture was so bound to its place near the Nile that its huge, interlocked religious, administrative, and formal structures could not be readily transferred to relatively mobile cultures of the desert, savanna, and forest. The influence of the mature pharaonic civilizations of Egypt and Kush was almost confined to their sophisticated trade goods and some significant elements of technology. Nevertheless, the religious substratum of Egypt and Kush was so similar to that of many cultures in southern Sudan today that it remains possible that fundamental elements derived from the two high cultures to the north live on.--Joseph O. Vogel (1997)

"It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt (Diakonoff 1998) or, earlier, in the Sahara (Wendorf 2004), where Takács (1999, 47) suggests their ‘long co-existence’ can be found. In addition, it is consistent with this view to suggest that the northern border of their homeland was further than the Wadi Howar proposed by Blench (1999, 2001), which is actually its southern border. Neither Chadics nor Cushitics existed at this time, but their ancestors lived in a homeland further north than the peripheral countries that they inhabited thereafter, to the south-west, in a Niger-Congo environment, and to the south-east, in a Nilo-Saharan environment, where they interacted and innovated in terms of language. From this perspective, the Upper Egyptian cultures were an ancient North East African ‘periphery at the crossroads’, as suggested by Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas of the Beja (Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas 2006). The most likely scenario could be this: some of these Saharo-Nubian populations spread southwards to Wadi Howar, Ennedi and Darfur; some stayed in the actual oases where they joined the inhabitants; and others moved towards the Nile, directed by two geographic obstacles, the western Great Sand Sea and the southern Rock Belt. Their slow perambulations led them from the area of Sprinkle Mountain (Gebel Uweinat) to the east – Bir Sahara, Nabta Playa, Gebel Ramlah, and Nekhen/Hierakonpolis (Upper Egypt), and to the north-east by way of Dakhla Oasis to Abydos (Middle Egypt)."--Anselin (2009)

To complicate matters, many of the populations living in the Nile Valley today (including the Sudanese part) are not the same as the populations from ancient times which multiple population movements recorded since historic times.

This is why such populations in Egypt or the greater northeast African region in general should and must be taken into account when referring to ancient DNA findings!
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
I've tried plugging both Ramses III's haplotype
and three of the controls and got 0 matches in all
four cases. Common denominator is that they're all
not European. Could be that YHRD's catering to
Europeans is the underlying cause.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I really wouldn't expect ancient haplotypes
in extant populations. STRs are not stable
and fit no preconceived archetypes (which
is what old school anthropology was about,
archetypes and admixtures between them
instead of in situ development over time).

STRs will show quite recent population variety.


Try as I might this is nearest to RIII's ht in
a living person in YHRD, an AfricanAmerican.



I registered but found I was limited to 20
searches a day when I tried to link the St
Louis 5 STR match to a haplogroup (but it
was neither E nor R. Was gonna test for
A when I crapped out). Ah well, there's
always tomorrow, if it please Gd that I
live. But nothing's stopping others here
to pick up where I left off. Ciao 4 now.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ Interesting findings. I agree that it is highly unlikely to match the ht of an ancient individual with someone of modern times, but perhaps the issue is how close modern individuals can come. Considering the tremendous diversity among Africans or those of African descent and that the Egyptians were themselves African any close affinities between them shouldn't be surprising.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

I've tried plugging both Ramses III's haplotype
and three of the controls and got 0 matches in all
four cases. Common denominator is that they're all
not European. Could be that YHRD's catering to
Europeans is the underlying cause.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
As for RIII's full STR profile nobody but he
will have it.

---

Why not? I would agree with you that it may be
unlikely for anyone to have a complete copy of
Ramses III's full Y chromosome, but I don't see
why it'd be impossible for anyone to have his Y
chromosome passed on unchanged for the amount
of markers that are listed, in the past 3k
years. Potential differences in mutation rates
notwithstanding, recall that the chance for anyone
to have Tut's autosomal profile was only 1 in a
couple of millions, showing that his autosomal
profile is still out there, after 3k years. Your
reasoning stands firm in that the chances for
finding any Amarna autosomal profile would
progressively decrease with an increase in STR
variables, though.

Was the following chance of Ramses III's Y haplotype
being E1b1a predicated on (near) exact modern
E1b1a Y STR profiles or predictions based on the
worldwide prevalence of certain Y STR values on
Ramses III's Y chromosome? I'm not sure.

http://ethiohelix.blogspot.nl/2012/12/ramesses-iii-belonged-to-ydna.html
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Same father sibs don't even have the same Y-STR profile.

It's like fingerprints which is why forensics rely on it.

RIII and son UME don't have the same Y-STR profile.

Can you do me a few rows of say 3 individuals
with the same complete YHRD 16 loci profile?


EDIT: please disregard this post. It is inaccurate
and I am wrong about Y-STRs here. I was thinking
of autosomal nDNA (actually I wasn't thinking at
all). I must go back to school!
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I could not dig up the one AfrAm in YHRD's db
and have no access to the referenced report
the access number lead me to so I went with
Athey's predictor which showed



So Beyoku, you were right about the guy being
E1b1a just as RIII was predicted as E1b1a by
a 96% probability.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^What happens when you set the dropdown menu to
'equal priors', rather than northwest Europe? Any
changes the chances of hap assignments?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
RIII and son UME don't have the same Y-STR profile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

^What happens when you set the dropdown menu to
'equal priors', rather than northwest Europe? Any
changes the chances of hap assignments?

---

.

That was downright stupid of me.
How could I have not set the predictor
for equal priors (i.e. global)? Time I sit
down have a cigar some rum and STFU.


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Lol! Interesting that, even if you restrict the
view to one of the most latitudinally distant places
from Africa, you still get E1b1a, albeit at a
somewhat lower probability than when you use
equal priors (which I'm not sure what that
means). This is reassuring because it suggests to
me that non-African haplogroups have been considered
and that one statistically cannot explain Ramses
III's Y haplotype without invoking African Y
chromosomes (i.e. E-M329 and E-M2).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Don't bother. They are the same.
I need to do general genetics
refresh. I'm confusing Y-STRs
with nDNA (again). My apologies
to any and all I may have spread
my confusion too.

I need to slow down and do a proof
of facts check before I submit posts
on genetics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
5 loci is not enough to really call
it a match. 7 loci is YHRD's minimum
standard.

As for RIII's full STR profile
nobody but he will have it.


BTW M78 is an unique event polymorphism
determined by SNP testing. Yes a STR ht
could be predicted as E1b1b1a but only
SNP dianostics can verify the prediction
applies to M78. Right???

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quote:

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The E1b1b1a1b/V32 was not found in Turkish population with M78 g microsatellite cluster, indicating that there is not a perfect correspondence between the M78 g microsatellite cluster and the E1b1b1a1b/V32 subclade. The g cluster is characterized by a short and unique DYS19 allele (11 repeats), a situation in which it acts almost as a unique event polymorphism like a SNP. The estimates for the TMRCA of this subclade are approximately 4-8kya.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
berbers are also E

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

^^I guess we can believe anything based on no evidence at all...

I don't think so, ancient DNA is still hard to extract and there's more than enough data to place the Ancient Egyptian remains tested within the right populations. Even studies on modern populations are done that way. Who in their right mind would release the info that Ramses III is E1b1a if they want to hide his African identity? E1b1a is like the most African you can get.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

berbers are also E

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I remember

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

Basically (all) Hg are African in origins!

---

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.

Ramesses III




.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Your point??

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/data7_files/data7.htm

(father) Ramses II
Rounded forehead with sagittal plateau. Slight, rounded glabella. Proclined upper incisors; receding chin with high ANB. Rather long ramus with weak inclination of mandible. Orthognathous.

(son) Ramesses IV

Bulging occipital bun. Rather low vault; rounded forehead with pronounced glabella; vertical zygomatic arches; receding chin and moderate protrusion of incisors. Angular mandible.

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I remember

---

Any link? I also remember in '95 or '96 (I'm not sure) Hawass saying most mummies tested seem to cluster with indigenous black Africans not Europeans, Berbers, West Asians or any non-African populations to any significant degree, that's why he didn't release the results. He even added, IIRC, "I wouldn't have mind if they [edit:the mummies] had Jewish genes, because Arab and Jewish are both Semitic people, descendants of Abraham.". Get it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ These ones: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Ramses III's phenotype in and of itself doesn't
leave much to draw conclusions from (it's not
that divergent), but when you include the
overall picture (him and his contemporaries), the
picture does get foggier, compared to the proto-
Egyptians. Taken together, the former have a
tendency to get progressively more ethnically
ambiguous. No doubt having something to do with
that the "Libyan" dynasties were right at their
doorstep.

As for the Zoe Saldana comment (click):

---

Very interesting observation as well as source! I think we should discuss the topic of Egypt's population change during dynastic times as opposed to after further in a thread of its own. In the mean time, I question what makes you think this change comes from 'Libyans' as opposed to Levantine folks??

As far as "honey" type tones or complexions, I've always maintained that such complexions were far more common in Lower Egypt around the Delta. Indeed this is something stated by several Egyptologists in references to physical appearance of Egyptians, namely Gay Robins and Frank Yurco.



Though this is a first I've heard of it being common in Upper Egypt or at least an area of Upper Egypt, I'm really not that surprised since such complexions are not uncommon in areas as far south as Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Ethiopian women

Perhaps a better example than Zoe Saldana...

Liya Kebede


Though note that honey comes in shades other than the typical 'golden'.

In fact African honey can be quite dark.

African honey


Therefore, I find your source about an Upper Egyptian sepat which seems to emphasize "honey" complexions vs. "black" complexions with the latter being a "minority" somewhat misleading.

---

Just jumping in here to say I wouldn't trust a lot of the pics of ancient egyptian wall art found on the net. I notice quite some time ago that many of the images were edited to appear a lighter color than they actually were. Untouched Egyptian wall art depicted the Egyptians in darker skins tones. Not to say that light brown isn't found on the walls, but that the darker skins tones were edited out.

Examples.
[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]






 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


^^^ I'm not saying the skin tones are not dark but most of these pictures are poorly lighted, dim
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
To Habaritess: while your claims may well be true for some tomb art, I'd have to say that the vast majority of tomb art is in relatively good quality for their age and still displays the Egyptians in the dark skin tones you speak of. Just pick up any book featuring ancient Egyptian tomb paintings or better yet, take a look on the net on google images or even in past threads of this forum featuring ancient Egyptian art and you can see that all the complexions are typically from mahogany to chocolate in color.

More to the topic..

Ramses III





 

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Posted by HabariTess (Member # 19629) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
To Habaritess: while your claims may well be true for some tomb art, I'd have to say that the vast majority of tomb art is in relatively good quality for their age and still displays the Egyptians in the dark skin tones you speak of. Just pick up any book featuring ancient Egyptian tomb paintings or better yet, take a look on the net on google images or even in past threads of this forum featuring ancient Egyptian art and you can see that all the complexions are typically from mahogany to chocolate in color.

More to the topic..

---

Ah, I see we are in agreement. My bad.
Though I have always wondered why the topic of editing photos of Ancient Egyptian art work to depict an overall red skin tone for Egyptians is not talked about more on here. It is one of the reasons why Ancient Egyptians are seen as an overall "red" people or sun burnt arabs.

Examples:






Flipped scene




But carry on the topic.
 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Skeletal or mummified human remains, especially certain physiognomies, will usually confirm racial classification. Chohayeb (1991:69) attests that the Egyptian cephalic index91 or cranial relationship was dolichocephalic and that there was a tendency of bimaxillary protrusion in a number of the royal families. Radiographic studies of the facial structures of the royalty appeared to be homogeneous among the Old Kingdom rulers and rather heterogeneous in the New Kingdom period.

The Angle classification of the sagittal relationship between the maxilla and the mandible92 establishes a class I (neutrocclusion), class II (distocclusion), and class III (prognathism) relationships, as devised by the Katz’s modified method, in

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Skeletal or mummified human remains, especially certain physiognomies, will usually confirm racial classification. Chohayeb (1991:69) attests that the Egyptian cephalic index91 or cranial relationship was dolichocephalic and that there was a tendency of bimaxillary protrusion in a number of the royal families. Radiographic studies of the facial structures of the royalty appeared to be homogeneous among the Old Kingdom rulers and rather heterogeneous in the New Kingdom period.

The Angle classification of the sagittal relationship between the maxilla and the mandible92 establishes a class I (neutrocclusion), class II (distocclusion), and class III (prognathism) relationships, as devised by the Katz’s modified method, in

---

--Brin et al.(2000:169).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
you're endorsing the concept of race?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Skeletal or mummified human remains, especially certain physiognomies, will usually confirm racial classification. Chohayeb (1991:69) attests that the Egyptian cephalic index91 or cranial relationship was dolichocephalic and that there was a tendency of bimaxillary protrusion in a number of the royal families. Radiographic studies of the facial structures of the royalty appeared to be homogeneous among the Old Kingdom rulers and rather heterogeneous in the New Kingdom period.

The Angle classification of the sagittal relationship between the maxilla and the mandible92 establishes a class I (neutrocclusion), class II (distocclusion), and class III (prognathism) relationships, as devised by the Katz’s modified method, in

---

--Brin et al.(2000:169).

---

What's the title of the paper?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Skeletal or mummified human remains, especially certain physiognomies, will usually confirm racial classification. Chohayeb (1991:69) attests that the Egyptian cephalic index91 or cranial relationship was dolichocephalic and that there was a tendency of bimaxillary protrusion in a number of the royal families. Radiographic studies of the facial structures of the royalty appeared to be homogeneous among the Old Kingdom rulers and rather heterogeneous in the New Kingdom period.

The Angle classification of the sagittal relationship between the maxilla and the mandible92 establishes a class I (neutrocclusion), class II (distocclusion), and class III (prognathism) relationships, as devised by the Katz’s modified method, in

---

--Brin et al.(2000:169).

---

What's the title of the paper?

---

DENTISTS, DENTISTRY AND DENTAL DISEASES IN ANCIENT EGYPT

BY CASPARUS JOHANNES GREEFF


http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/13366/dissertation_greeff_c.pdf?sequence=1

---

Not surprising but interesting that they should mention
dolichcephaly, prognathism, and they do confirm the greater
heterogeneity in the New Kingdom. The author of
the dissertation uses a lot of obsolete race
classifications, and doesn't go beyond a 1972 ref in his
section on ethnicity! Which is quite telling.. On
that score the dissertation is full of dated references
and for something that purports to be discussing
current knowledge in the field, it fails to live
up to the author's billing.. The author is a South
African of Dutch descent and seems to have skipped
over numerous key developments and scholarship
in the field- last 2 decades..


----------------------------------------------------------------

RECAP BRACHCEPHALY DEBUNK

COUNT 1) Brachchepaly is well within the range of African populations,
and is nothing unusual. Africans are the most diverse phenotypically-
Brachycephaly is nothing special and limb proportions and skull variation
can co-exist in several configurations- nothing special..
In fact archaeological surveys have long discovered clear "Negroid"
remains WITH brachycephalic elements. The two can go together, as can
limb proportions and skull variation at the same time. QUOTE:

"I might refer to the occupant of grave 162 in Cemetery 22.
The skull was a short, brachcephalic ovoid, there was definite
prognathism, typical Negro hair and a slight beard confined to the chin."
(_-The Archeological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908. By G. Elliot Smith, F.
Wood Jones.)

"more thickset and short-headed (Bongos, Golos,
Makarakas, with the kindred Zandehs of the Welle region).
No explanation has been offered for their brachycephaly.."
(--Man, past and present By Augustus Henry Keane. 1920.)


"At any rate during the later phases of the
local Later Stone Age contrasting brachycephalic
folk were also present in the region."
-JD Fage. The Later Stone Age in Africa

In short, the phenotypic diversity of Africa puts "negroid"
brachycephalic types well in place in the Nile Valley without
needing any "incoming Caucasoids" to explain African diversity.



COUNT 2) Brachchepaly does not necessarily have a strong correlation with
temperature. In fact skull shape is highly plastic and children of the
same "race" without any admixture show skull changes as quickly as
within one generation. Cultural practices also affect head shape, and cold
climate Inuit fail to follow the alleged temperature rule. QUOTE:

"Crognier also suggested that the correlation between cold and head shape could be improved heat retention of brachchepalic (rounder) head shape found in colder climates; however this argument may not fully account for the phenomenon because cultural practices that protect the head (e.g. hats) are available in cold environments, In addition the Inuit of the Artic are as dolichocephalic (longer heads), as are Africans, suggesting that head shape is not related to environmental temperature. Finally other practices can influence head shape; for example, infant sleeping position can affect ultimate head shape. Also Boas showed the skull shape is highly plastic and can change in only on generation. Children of immigrants to the United States at the end of the nineteenth century were shown to have a different head shape that their parents. This many environmental factors can play a role in shaping head form, and temperature man be only one."
--Noel Cameron. Human Growth and Development. (2002)

In short, temperature is unimpressive as an explanation
of brachchepaly, and must take its place besides numerous
other variables that bear on the issue.



"Not light-skinned enough to be a 'truly' Egyptian farmer.."


COUNT 3) Brachchepalization is also associated with increases in
standard of living such as better diet due to agriculture. Thus a
very plastic feature like Brachchepalization could easily change
for Egyptians as they adopted better diets, including more agriculture.
It should be noted that better diets can be obtained without full-blown
agriculture through more intensive foraging and harvesting,
and indeed the 'negroid' Badari and others enjoyed a rich reource
base prior to farming and sustained relatively high population
densities as they transitioned to more agriculture. Per scholars
Jantz and Jantz 2000:

"In many parts of the world there has been a change toward shorter, broader
crania in the past several thousand years. This change, referred to as
brachycephalization, has been observed in Europe, Asia and America. A common
explanation for this widespread trend is that it reflects functional responses to reduced
masticatory stresses. The model has been formulated by Carlson and Van Gerven,
(1977) based on their Nubian epipaleolithic-Neolithic series. The argument is that
reduced masticatory stresses will result in crania that are shorter and higher in food
producers than in hunters and gatherers. (See also Larsen 1997). Furthermore in
Europe, where the data base is much richer, the period of most intensive
brachycephalization occurs not with the Neolithic, but several thousand years
later during the mediaeval period."
--Jantz and Jantz 2000. The Meaning And Consequences Of Morphological Variation
in “Exploring the Nature of Human Biological Diversity: Myth v. Reality” (AAA Prceedings 2004)

------------ Mo betta Munchies in the Nile Valley-------
QUOTE:
"With the onset of the Neolithic, the dietary
diversity of hunter-gatherers is replaced with
dietary specialization on one or a few cereal
crops and the products of domestic animals...
Increasing sedentism and population density are
almost universally associated with increases in
infectious disease.. and may underpin the the
reduction in stature in the Predynastic period.
Archaeological evidence suggests that the Badarian
civilization had higher population density than
did any other contemporaneous civilizations
(Gabriel, 1987, Hassan 1988)."
--Pinhasi and Stock 2011. Human Bioarchaelogy of the Transition to Agriculture
-----------------------------------

In short, there were plenty of ways for (a) better diets to
cause brachchepalization in the Nile Valley, and (b) if migrants
are a factor, said migrants need not have cone from cold climates
at all. They only need to be people with better, more intensive
food sourcing and this can be richly obtained in the Nile Valley
in various eras, with or without full-blown agriculture.



All kinds of weather over millennia in the Sahara, cool, non-cool.. whatever..
plenty of time and scope to develop diversity and variability in-situ


COUNT 4) Finally, even if temperature is the cause, brachchepalization
as the experts show is highly plastic. The cooler temperatures of the Saharan
zone over time and Egypt as the climate waxed back and forth for millennia,
allowed plenty of scope for the tropical Africans therein, to adapt in-situ,
without needing any cold climate "associates." [The conservative, slower-
changing limb proportions however are evidence of the origin
and makeup of these tropical Africans.

And even if there was migration from cooler climates, the cooler
climes are already built into the broad area in question- within the
millennia long span of Saharan climate fluctuations, plus within the
cooler climes of other Egyptian areas, there was both plenty
of time and scope for people with varying degrees of dolichchepaly
or brachchepaly to appear, without needing any "outside help."

COUNT 5) As a social construct, the construct "blacks" include people
with brown skin, (indeed tropical Africans have the higest skin color
diversity) and the conservative limb proportions of the Egyptians,
which cluster with African-Americans in several studies, speak to the clear'
tropical provenance of the ancient peoples. Social construct, or anthropological
data- makes no difference- same result.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

That's five strikes against the Brachchepaly argument and other associated claims.
 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
I'm sure the lioness disagrees with the above
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
A number of studies show bimaxillary protrusions in
substantial frequency among African type populations
like Af Americans.
------------------------------------------------------------


Farrow, et al. 1993. Bimaxillary protrusion in black Americans-an esthetic evaluation and the treatment considerations. American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics. Volume 104, Issue 3, Pages 240-250, September 1993

Abstract
This study attempted to discover what black Americans find attractive about their profile. Fifteen black patients (eight males, seven females) were selected at random and used as models. Lateral photographs were taken on each patient, and a computer was used to alter the profiles to depict different levels of bimaxillary protrusion. Each patient was manipulated into four different profile types according to specific numerical guidelines. A vertical reference line from soft tissue glabella, perpendicular to Frankfort horizontal, was used to measure the lip position. In each profile type only the horizontal lip position was altered. The four profile types were classified as S (straight) BM1, (bimax one), BM2 (bimax two) and BM3 (bimax three). The S profile was considered a straight or white facial profile, and the BM3 was an extreme example of bimaxillary protrusion. The photographs were surveyed among black and white laypersons, general dentists, and orthodontists. The results found the BM1, profile to be the most attractive. This was consistent with all groups surveyed. The BM1 profile would be considered a slightly convex profile and is more protrusive than white orthodontic norms. In this study comparisons of this profile to other standards are made and treatment considerations for black patients are discussed.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ HBD
 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ HBD

---

 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
A number of studies show bimaxillary protrusions in
substantial frequency among African type populations
like Af Americans.
------------------------------------------------------------


Farrow, et al. 1993. Bimaxillary protrusion in black Americans-an esthetic evaluation and the treatment considerations. American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics. Volume 104, Issue 3, Pages 240-250, September 1993

Abstract
This study attempted to discover what black Americans find attractive about their profile. Fifteen black patients (eight males, seven females) were selected at random and used as models. Lateral photographs were taken on each patient, and a computer was used to alter the profiles to depict different levels of bimaxillary protrusion. Each patient was manipulated into four different profile types according to specific numerical guidelines. A vertical reference line from soft tissue glabella, perpendicular to Frankfort horizontal, was used to measure the lip position. In each profile type only the horizontal lip position was altered. The four profile types were classified as S (straight) BM1, (bimax one), BM2 (bimax two) and BM3 (bimax three). The S profile was considered a straight or white facial profile, and the BM3 was an extreme example of bimaxillary protrusion. The photographs were surveyed among black and white laypersons, general dentists, and orthodontists. The results found the BM1, profile to be the most attractive. This was consistent with all groups surveyed. The BM1 profile would be considered a slightly convex profile and is more protrusive than white orthodontic norms. In this study comparisons of this profile to other standards are made and treatment considerations for black patients are discussed.

---

Interesting,



 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
I wonder of Raamses II would turn out to be E1b1a as well since because of the appearance of his mummy, his hair, he was claimed to have been a red haired "leucoderm" of Libyan extraction.



Does anyone know if any genetic testing has been done on his remains?
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
*bump*
 

---

Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
I wonder of Raamses II would turn out to be E1b1a as well since because of the appearance of his mummy, his hair, he was claimed to have been a red haired "leucoderm" of Libyan extraction.



Does anyone know if any genetic testing has been done on his remains?

---

quote:

---

Moving to the opposite geographical extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
I wonder of Raamses II would turn out to be E1b1a as well since because of the appearance of his mummy, his hair, he was claimed to have been a red haired "leucoderm" of Libyan extraction.



Does anyone know if any genetic testing has been done on his remains?

---

You are delusional, with preassumptions.

---

Anwar Sadat:

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Moving to the opposite geographical extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.

---

- From Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilisation (Kemp, 2005, p.54)

---

Yes, I am well aware of this quote from Kemp which I myself have cited many times! If this is suppose to be some sort of rebuttal to my last post then you are obviously mistaken since, my post never referred to limb-length or any bodily features but rather cranio-facial features specifically with Natufians of mesolithic Palestine. You know, the Natufians who were initially described as "negroid" and is recently confirmed as a having 'Sub-Saharan' component.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
What do you think about the TribeScores, lioness?
How do they fit? Are the trolls wrong for ignoring
the fact that they blatantly contradict their
fairy tale narrative that Egyptians originate
from the regions with the highest MLI scores?

Ramses III
Horn of Africa (0.93)
African Great Lakes (0.84)
Tropical West Africa, Levantine (0.76)
North Africa (0.75)
Southern Africa (0.74)

Unknown man E
Horn of Africa (0.86)
African Great Lakes (0.71)
Southern African (0.66)
North African (0.62)
Tropical West African (0.54)

The gap between East and non-East African (West
African, South African, North African) samples
to these royal individuals in terms of TribeScores
is more or less 20-30 percentiles. Wow. Talk about
a complete annihilation of these trolls' fairytales.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
What do you think about the TribeScores, lioness?
How do they fit? Are the trolls wrong for ignoring
the fact that they blatantly contradict their
fairy tale narrative that Egyptians originate
from the regions with the highest MLI scores?

Ramses III
Horn of Africa (0.93)
African Great Lakes (0.84)
Tropical West Africa, Levantine (0.76)
North Africa (0.75)
Southern Africa (0.74)

Unknown man E
Horn of Africa (0.86)
African Great Lakes (0.71)
Southern African (0.66)
North African (0.62)
Tropical West African (0.54)

The gap between East and non-East African (West
African, South African, North African) samples
to these royal individuals in terms of TribeScores
is more or less 20-30 percentiles. Wow. Talk about
a complete annihilation of these trolls' fairytales.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Still in denial about the DNA Tribes results?

---

How am I in denial when I'm citing directly from the
DNA Tribes report? Since it's YOU who consistently
refuses to address the TribeScores, it is YOU who
is in denial. Thanks for posting the link so that
the readers can confirm the extent to which you're
habitually full of sh!t!



Why does Ramses III's STR profile fit better in
the genetic Horner region than 93% of the individual
Horner samples in DNA Tribes' database, whereas
the corresponding values of Ramses III's ranking
in African genetic regions outside of East Africa
are 76% (Tropical West Africa & Levant/Egypt), 75%
(North Africa) and 74% (Southern Africa)?

Anyone?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Ramses III
Horn of Africa (0.93)
African Great Lakes (0.84)
Tropical West Africa, Levantine (0.76)
North Africa (0.75)
Southern Africa (0.74)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Still in denial about the DNA Tribes results?

---

How am I in denial when I'm citing directly from the
DNA Tribes report?

---

It's not the DNA Tribes report that is the problem it's you ignoring the results and your interpretation of them.

I already discussed the percentile scores before here. Are you in denial about that too?



 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
With that image you're merely demonstrating that
Ramses III's STR profile has a likelihood of
occurring in a descending order with the likelihood
being higher in certain African regions than other
African regions. What of it, you dumb low IQ troll?
What exactly is your point? Are you saying that the
MLI scores are admixture percentages and that the
descending order of likelihoods are proportionately
indicative of the ancestral contributions to Ramses
III's genepool? How do MLI scores refute what I'm
saying? Lay it out, right now please.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Can someone explain " Tribe score" vs MLI?

That may help settle the argument .
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Can someone explain " Tribe score" vs MLI?

That may help settle the argument .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


The Tribescores just give the proportion of individuals who have a lower or higher value of MLI for their own region they live in than the subject in question(DNA Tribes client, mummy). For example, a recent Arabian now living as a Somali, has a low MLI scores for Horn Africa (his STR alleles don't match that region very much but the Arabian region instead, where is parents or great..great grandparents came from). The MLI being the proportion of alleles frequency in that region compared to the rest of the world. The Tribescore is a percentile. So of course a real African like Ramses III will have a higher value that somebody closer to the Arabian region but now living in Somalia (as well as with other people who are heavily admixed with other regions than Horn Africa but still living in Horn Africa).

As demonstrated above , Horn Africans individuals composing the Horn Africa populations from their sampled data are 70% from other genetic regions (they are "recent" non-Horn African), so we can easily imagine they have a low MLI scores for their own region they now live in, so it's no biggy if the mummy profile match more than 93% of the invididuals in the Horn African region considering that the region is so admixed already with post-dynastic immigration. With individuals who have a low MLI value for their own region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
TribeScores indicate how high or low your score is
in the specific context of each population,
providing the necessary point of reference to
explain each MLI score.

---

Nuff said. In and of themselves, MLI scores are
devoid of the very context that is needed to
make sense of them.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Read this several times but every time I think I got it… I doubt myself. But I will take a shot.

Swenet may be right. It looks like MLI score is based upon the average of the ENTIRE population while; Tribes Score is a direct comparison to each indidual of the subject population. In other words they tested Rameses III profile against person-by-person(to each individual within a "tribe", using their unique algorithm

Remember averages(MLI) may be skewed because some members in the Great Lakes may be very close to Rameses III while some are very distant. It is the old median vs mode vs average thing in high school Statistics. So Rameses III will better fit into the Ethiopian Tribes than Great Lakes Tribes because MORE people like him exist IN Ethiopia than the Great Lakes.

I am open to correction or re-interpretation.

Swenet you are on a role bro. Two in two days! May be I had you pegged wrong. Nice discussion AMRTU.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Irregardless E1b1a exist in Ethiopia. They are all Africans.


Lioness…my high IQ at work again. He! He!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
what is the difference between "regardless" and "irregardless" ?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
^ Yo! I told you already. I like using the word, irregardless, although it irks some people. Sage may be another one.

He has a thing for sentence structure and choice of words.

I am about getting the most effective means of getting the message across.

ie it is deliberate
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 



I just want to warn people reading this forum about:

Swenet
Beyoku
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (aka Troll Patrol)
Djehuti
Tukuler (aka alTakruri)
xyyman
A few others.

Those people are undercover racists trying to promote the hamitic race myth. What great Africans like Diop, Obenga fought against since the 50s and rejected as pseudo scientific racism by every quarters. Trying to say Ancient Egyptians were closer to Eurasians than most Sub-Saharan Africans (Yoruba, Somali, Wolof, Kongo, Zulu, Ganda, Dinka, etc) despite the genetic and archaeological results exposed in this thread and on this forum showing us the contrary. Notice how they squirm at the mention of haplogroup E-P2 obliterating their stupid racist theory!! The common paternal haplogroup among East, West and most African people alongside haplogroup A and B.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Funny how you keep repeating the above libel yet you are NEVER able to prove it! Please cite posts from myself or anyone else in this forum that supports the long debunked 'Hamitic hypothesis'. As Tukuler has pointed out, if anyone does this it is YOU YOURSELF!!

I suggest you seek professional psychological help.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Burns, doesn't it?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Ramses III
Horn of Africa (0.93)
African Great Lakes (0.84)
Tropical West Africa, Levantine (0.76)
North Africa (0.75)
Southern Africa (0.74)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Funny how you keep repeating the above libel yet you are NEVER able to prove it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyyman:
Swenet may be right. It looks like MLI score is
based upon the average of the ENTIRE population
while; Tribes Score is a direct comparison to each
indidual of the subject population. In other words
they tested Rameses III profile against person-
by-person(to each individual within a "tribe",
using their unique algorithm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
They were genetically similar to modern
day Sub-Saharan Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Ramses III
Horn of Africa (0.93)
African Great Lakes (0.84)

(-------gap--------)

Tropical West Africa, Levantine (0.76)
North Africa (0.75)
Southern Africa (0.74)

---

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
I already discussed the percentile scores before here. Are you in denial about that too?

DNA Tribes: Specifically, both of these ancient individuals inherited the alleles D21S11=35 and CSFIPO=7, which are found throughout Sub-Saharan Africa but are comparatively rare or absent in other regions of the world . These African related alleles are different from the African related alleles identified for the previously studied Amarna period mummies (D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).11 This provides independent evidence for African autosomal ancestry in two different pharaonic families of New Kingdom Egypt.





Swenet:

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Ramses III's and Pentawer's STR profile ranking
in DNA Tribes' African genetic regions. It pains
Afroloons who are in it to claim region-specific
African civilizations as trophies, not because it's
African history, but because they're obsessed
with using these civis as linchpins for their
therapeutic pseudo-historical fairytales.