I'm assuming everyone is doing this right now, as we speak. I'm talking about sharing scientific info privately via ES's PM function. I'm currently sort of unofficially doing this with Beyoku, Truth-centric and some other posters, mostly through private messages, e-mail and Facebook, but I want to give others access to these private conversations, and allow them to chime in. There is this old closed off space on Facebook that I plan to use as a place where ES's most generous and sharing posters can upload and share interesting papers amongst each other. I want this to eventually turn into a database where we can keep ourselves updated on the latest bits of information, but also, where we'll have quick access to research in case we can't find a particular paper or in case our HD crashes.
Note: I don't plan this to be a 2nd Egyptsearch, although I do see myself increasingly using this private group in the near future, and spending less time on ES. I want this to primarily be about sharing the latest papers and us all profiting from each other's serendipity and search engine skills. I have about 30 papers floating around that I'm pretty sure most ES people haven't read yet.
Remember, this is a private group. No one who isn't given access can access this group. If you already own a Facebook account but prefer to not use your personal info in this Facebook group, you can make your participation in this group as private as you want to. Just create a dummy account or restrict our Facebook account access. Note: Truthcentric, Beyoku, you guys are already in this Facebook group with your name and images out so if you want to make changes, now is the time to do so. Jari, Sundiata, Calabooz, and Ausar, you guys are already in this Facebook group, just use your login info.
--No trolls, sorry --No assholes, sorry --Reputable ES members, yes!
Main benefits:
--Everyone is a moderator and can invite reputable people --Be kept in the loop about the latest interesting papers --Quick access to uploaded papers when you're not home or can't seem to find a pdf --Put up requests for papers once we have people on the team with journal access --Instant messaging function
Who is in?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Im in
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Great. Jari, re-read 3rd paragraph; I've made some changes to the OP.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
LOL, the Funny part is I forgot about the group and I create it..damn. Its been a long time. Anyway I want to post some stuff in there as well, to preserve it.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Ok
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
I hate facebook so IDK.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I'm no fan of Facebook either, but I'll try it out and see.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Heh...May create a dummy account.
I'm in.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Swenet
Blessings Brother. Good to see one of our own making forums so we can debate without ignorant redneck posters.
I hesitate to join because I am not on Twitter, Facebook or any of those kind of websites. Heck I aint even on Youtube.
Will support from the sideline for now.
Peace
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Cool everyone. Just send me your Facebook accounts via ES's PM function, and I'll add you to the private group. Like Brada does for ES Reloaded, I'll use this thread to post updates on the papers that have been uploaded, every once in a while.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
alTakruri. I tried PMming you back but your inbox is full so I'll copy my reply here:
quote:Good to have you. I've tried adding you but Facebook doesn't auto suggest your profile when I type your name. This is probably because your account is still new and not indexed yet. I'll try again every every so often and let you know when you're in.
Hopefully, FB's PM function will also help out in terms of providing a more modern alternative to this ancient inbox restriction.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
Haven't posted on this website in ages, but I still lurk from time to time. The website has really fallen off from the old days, so I've moved on. However I'd like to keep in touch with some of the more serious members on the website. Older members can vouch for me lol.
Is Dana in the group? I still read her material from Golden Age of the Moor lol.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
KS
Where have you moved on to?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Facebook still doesn't auto-suggest your names guys, and when I type out your account names Facebook wipes it off the entry field. It's either auto-suggest or its nothing per Facebook.
I've tried making the Facebook group reachable to outsiders by making use of Facebook's group address feature, which allows others to click their way to the group, but when I tested it via a friend's account, who is not in this group, the hidden nature of this group overruled this feature; it says the link is broken (which it isn't). I've also tried to reach this group on my friends account by using Facebook's search engine, but the result is the same; the group doesn't show up to outsiders.
I could remove this group's stealth configuration, but that defeats the purpose of this group only including the most contributive and non-dogmatic netizens in the first place. The other group, which is open to this day, kept receiving invitation requests from people who aren't the most contributive bunch (not that that's a problem for open fora, of course). I also can't keep going back and forth between hidden and public status every time someone wants in.
Luckily, there is a workaround. Facebook allows group members to invite others via e-mail. Please PM your email to receive an invitation. I've tested it and it works. You should immediately receive an invitation request with a link to our Facebook group. TP, Djehuti, and a couple of others whom I've already emailed with in the past will shortly receive an invitation.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: KS
Where have you moved on to?
There really aren't many forums like this one with so much knowledge about population genetics and African History. I still do independent research though.
quote:Facebook still doesn't auto-suggest your names guys, and when I type out your account names Facebook wipes it off the entry field. It's either auto-suggest or its nothing per Facebook.
I've tried making the Facebook group reachable to outsiders by making use of Facebook's group address feature, which allows others to click their way to the group, but when I tested it via a friend's account, who is not in this group, the hidden nature of this group overruled this feature; it says the link is broken (which it isn't). I've also tried to reach this group on my friends account by using Facebook's search engine, but the result is the same; the group doesn't show up to outsiders.
I could remove this group's stealth configuration, but that defeats the purpose of this group only including the most contributive and non-dogmatic netizens in the first place. The other group, which is open to this day, kept receiving invitation requests from people who aren't the most contributive bunch (not that that's a problem for open fora, of course). I also can't keep going back and forth between hidden and public status every time someone wants in.
Luckily, there is a workaround. Facebook allows group members to invite others via e-mail. Please PM your email to receive an invitation. I've tested it and it works. You should immediately receive an invitation request with a link to our Facebook group. TP, Djehuti, and a couple of others whom I've already emailed with in the past will shortly receive an invitation.
I have to create a dummy profile first, but ok.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Live-in boy friend? He! He! sorry man. couldn't resist. Continue.
Quote; "but when I tested it via a friend's account,"
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Just uploaded two very interesting papers a couple of days ago, which documents affinity between Ancient Egyptians, Khoisan and other Africans in a certain cultural artefact.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Oh sh*t...Thats seems interesting. About to create an FB account and then PM you.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Just uploaded two papers a couple of days ago which show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India. I'm about to upload another one tonight, which involves royal Egyptians remains. This one is especially interesting for you Egyptology folks. There is also some physical anthropology stuff in it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Note: Facebook has a file upload restriction of 25mb, so in some cases-like when I'll upload a full eBook-I'll have to use an external file upload service. The one I have experience with is Fileconvey. They're free, but they do have time constraints. The maximum amount of time I can stretch their time constraint is 7 days, after that, the file will get taken off. Since the Egyptian royal eBook I mentioned above is 25+mb, I'll use this service to upload this eBook.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
King_Scorpion
Looking forward to having you on board.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hmmmm!!! I'll bite
"show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India".
Is that the Abdul et al paper?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Just uploaded two papers a couple of days ago which show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India. I'm about to upload another one tonight, which involves royal Egyptians remains. This one is especially interesting for you Egyptology folks. There is also some physical anthropology stuff in it.
If you want to you could you could put up the abstract and a few excerpts here. I don't think there are infringement issues if you don't copy too much of a particular article
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Just posted another big paper of the utmost importance for those who want to be kept up to speed with the developments in this area, today in the Facebook group. Beyoku, Truth, Jari, Son of Ra and other FB members, make sure you read it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Just uploaded two papers a couple of days ago which show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India. I'm about to upload another one tonight, which involves royal Egyptians remains. This one is especially interesting for you Egyptology folks. There is also some physical anthropology stuff in it.
If you want to you could you could put up the abstract and a few excerpts here. I don't think there are infringement issues if you don't copy too much of a particular article
No can do. It's not about copyright infringement. It's about giving the group a chance to grow by having its own unique content. Posting the material here would mean making the Facebook group obsolete. Besides, I'm not interested in being Sammy's blogger. Putting pennies in his pocket with the traffic this sort of stuff generates, while my threads are potentially getting bombarded with spam and/or deliberately wiped off the earth's surface a couple of weeks from now. No way, Jose.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
What do you thing Lioness? What is she up to? No one here holds information close to their chest.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [
If you want to you could you could put up the abstract and a few excerpts here. I don't think there are infringement issues if you don't copy too much of a particular article [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Think..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Just uploaded two papers a couple of days ago which show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India. I'm about to upload another one tonight, which involves royal Egyptians remains. This one is especially interesting for you Egyptology folks. There is also some physical anthropology stuff in it.
If you want to you could you could put up the abstract and a few excerpts here. I don't think there are infringement issues if you don't copy too much of a particular article
No can do. It's not about copyright infringement. It's about giving the group a chance to grow by having its own unique content. Posting the material here would mean making the Facebook group obsolete. Besides, I'm not interested in being Sammy's blogger. Putting pennies in his pocket with the traffic this sort of stuff generates, while my threads are potentially getting bombarded with spam and/or deliberately wiped off the earth's surface a couple of weeks from now. No way, Jose.
I understand your position. They are collectiong money off the ads yet care very little about the condition of the forums. There is a set of rules, yet no consequences to violating the rules. ESR seems like the logical alternative
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Just uploaded two papers a couple of days ago which show irrefutable presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in India. I'm about to upload another one tonight, which involves royal Egyptians remains. This one is especially interesting for you Egyptology folks. There is also some physical anthropology stuff in it.
If you want to you could you could put up the abstract and a few excerpts here. I don't think there are infringement issues if you don't copy too much of a particular article
No can do. It's not about copyright infringement. It's about giving the group a chance to grow by having its own unique content. Posting the material here would mean making the Facebook group obsolete. Besides, I'm not interested in being Sammy's blogger. Putting pennies in his pocket with the traffic this sort of stuff generates, while my threads are potentially getting bombarded with spam and/or deliberately wiped off the earth's surface a couple of weeks from now. No way, Jose.
I understand your position. They are collectiong money off the ads yet care very little about the condition of the forums. There is a set of rules, yet no consequences to violating the rules. ESR seems like the logical alternative
Well, I didn't see that much ad on this site, but everybody can do what they want. Hoping people can post relevant studies in here or somewhere else I know like ESR, where we can analyze and discuss those studies. Not as a secluded group of people but as an open internet group where everybody interested in Ancient Egypt can discuss the latest studies and other aspects related to that ancient civilization.
Making the facebook account a repository of relevant studies is a good thing, but it shouldn't be a place where studies are kept secret from the public imo. All the contrary. But again, everybody is free to do what they want.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
It's not about it being secluded, just randomly, for no reason. It's about making it attractive for the kind of people I want to attract to the group, and making it so that they want to stay, contribute and be a part of a like-minded scientific (meaning, non-dogmatic) community. A measure of privacy gives it a higher chance of not turning into one of the many other initiatives to move away from ES that have failed. With the privacy aspect in place, posters will (hopefully) have a reason to keep logging in, due to our collective ability to post rare stuff that's not widespread and easily accessible across the net. If you can easily get it elsewhere, there is no point no point in creating the group. What added value will it have that ES doesn't have?
I'm not interested in being a part of a carbon copy of ES. I want this to be a group that I could actually invite family members to (not that I would, I'm just saying), unlike ES, which I, at times, wouldn't want to be publicly associated with.
Besides, the only people who'll feel some type of way about this group's privacy are those who won't be invited due to their disruptive pseudo- scientific agendas or lurkers who enjoy reading good stuff. I feel bad about excluding the latter with this group, but I don't care about excluding the former. This is something that you (whoever fits the bill) control yourself by your own behaviour.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Freely available on the web....
=====\\\
1.0 Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe. González AM, Brehm A, Pérez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.
1.1.1 Source Departamento de Genética, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es
1.1.2 Abstract Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Atlantic European samples has detected significant latitudinal clines for several clusters with Paleolithic (H) and Neolithic (J, U4, U5a1, and U5a1a) coalescence ages in Europe. These gradients may be explained as the result of Neolithic influence on a rather homogeneous Paleolithic background. There is also evidence that some Neolithic clusters reached this border by a continental route (J, J1, J1a, U5a1, and U5a1a), whereas others (J2) did so through the Mediterranean coast. An important gene flow from Africa was detected in the Atlantic Iberia. Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal, and could be attributed to historic Black slave trade in the area and to a probable Saharan Neolithic influence. In fact, U6 haplotypes of specific North African origin have only been detected in the Iberian peninsula northwards from central Portugal. Based on this peculiar distribution and the high diversity pi value (0.014 +/- 0.001) in this area compared to North Africa (0.006 +/- 0.001), we reject the proposal that only historic events such as the Moslem occupation are the main cause of this gene flow, and instead propose a pre-Neolithic origin for it. ====//
Check out the suppplementals...it is off the chains.
SSA in Iberia during the Neolithic times.....where have I seen that before. Was it the Bermudez et al paper.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I said.....diversity/resolution goes a long way.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I understand your position. They are collectiong money off the ads yet care very little about the condition of the forums. There is a set of rules, yet no consequences to violating the rules. ESR seems like the logical alternative
I encourage everyone to go to ESR. This Facebook is not a competing alternative to ES or ESR, at least not for now. The Facebook formula hasn't even proven itself yet.
One thing I don't/didn't like about ESR is that control is in the hands of a group of ES posters who are used to rooting for and agreeing with each other in terms of the subject matter that the forum is about. That setup just seems to me to have too much of a potential for (unintentional) polarity and nepotism, judging by the predominantly Euronut forums like Dodona and Biodiversity, although it may not have played out that way on ESR.
In the Facebook group everyone is equal and everyone will be given moderator status. Decisions will be made as a group, no one is in charge. Although this has some perks, it's mostly for symbolic value and for setting the tone, as there likely won't be any need to moderate, due to its secluded nature.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Uploaded a couple of interesting rare papers yesterday.
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
quote: I want this to be a group that I could actually invite family members to (not that I would, I'm just saying), unlike ES, which I, at times, wouldn't want to be publicly associated with.
I have to admit that I would be embarrassed to have it known amongst my family and friends that I post here.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600:
quote: I want this to be a group that I could actually invite family members to (not that I would, I'm just saying), unlike ES, which I, at times, wouldn't want to be publicly associated with.
I have to admit that I would be embarrassed to have it known amongst my family and friends that I post here.
Hopefully the slew of new upcoming initiatives will change that.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hey. Can some one dig this up? +
////== Population genetics and DNA preservation in ancient human remains from Eastern Spain
Abstract
This work aims to establish the genetic relationship between the different settlers of Eastern Spain and also to determine the conditions of DNA preservation. We studied two overlapping sequences (16,126–16,251 and 16,256–16,369) from mitochondrial HVR-I in 37 bone and teeth samples from 17 archaeological sites of Spanish Levant. Consistence of the results was established by repeated replication of amplifications. Approximately, 50% of the samples yielded reproducible results. The high efficiency in DNA recovery indicates that sample preservation mainly depends on the depositional environment rather than on sample age. Haplogroup V, an ***ALLEGED** marker of Paleolithic newcomers in Europe, has been found in an unusual elevated frequency (1 Calcolithic and 2 Iberian samples). This result could suggest a more southern distribution of Palaeolithic ice refugia. Moreover, we found Haplogroup L in Calcolithic samples. This may suggest the presence of a prehistoric African genetic background in eastern Iberia
===
this is an amazing tool...Google language translator. The sky is the limit...who are they kidding? I am not the only one who has doubts!
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Swenet
quote:One thing I don't/didn't like about ESR is that control is in the hands of a group of ES posters who are used to rooting for and agreeing with each other in terms of the subject matter that the forum is about. That setup just seems to me to have too much of a potential for (unintentional) polarity and nepotism, judging by the predominantly Euronut forums like Dodona and Biodiversity, although it may not have played out that way on ESR.
No such worries out side of cussing and dropping F and N bombs general trolling and anti racist statement of any kind non who police the site will gang up on anyone matter of fact past criticism is that we react too slowly to breach of etiquette.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Google translator was used for this…take what you may from this, but the conclusion further confirms Africans migrating into the Levant and Iberia since Paleoltihic times.. As I said aDNA will expose the lies. Charts and tables will be posted on ESR.
Population Studies through aDNA – Eva Fernandez Dominguez
///=== CONCLUSIONS POPULATION 26. Reynolds distance and cluster analysis show that all three sets defined sample ("Paleolithic", "Middle Eastern Neolithic" and "Neolithic of the Iberian peninsula ") are phylogenetically CLOSER to each other than to the current populations.
27. The three sample sets have generally a large number of haplotypes unrepresented or low frequency current populations.
28. Although ancient populations differ from current procedures situate phylogenetic reconstruction old as closely haplotypes related to current and indicate that, old and new, come from a common gene pool.
29. The Middle East Neolithic samples have high genetic diversity dis-similar to the current populations of the same geographic region.
30. The Near Eastern Neolithic samples are frequency composition and haplotypes and haplogroups different from the current population of the same region Geographic. It is inferred that in the Middle East there has been a change in the genetic composition from the Neolithic.
31. The presence of rare haplotypes currently common to some Neolithic samples from Tell Ramad and Druze population of the current Israel, suggests a likely relationship between both matrilineal.
32. The presence of mitochondrial variations in the sample ***sub-Saharan***, Neolithic Middle East, analyzed, suggests that gene flow between this region and the continent Africa has been occurring since before the Neolithic.
33. Haplogroups proposed as markers to Neolithic expansion Europe FROM the Middle East, especially the haplogroup J-, are not former present in the sample obtained in this geographic area. If we discard the sampling bias as the cause, the results suggest that: 1) or populations Neolithic that spread in Europe belonged to a later archaeological phase, or 2) the current substructure haplogroup J does **NOT** have its origin in the Neolithic. .
34. Considering only the composition of the samples lineages neolithic Middle East, it is equally possible that the mitochondrial diversity appropriate European populations: 1) of the Neolithic demographic expansions, 2) of genetic continuity from Paleolithic.
35. The oldest samples of the Iberian Peninsula are analyzed here composition and haplotypes and haplogroups frequency different from Iberian populations current, suggesting that since the Neolithic there has been a change in the genetic composition of these populations.
36. The presence of the motif 16126C-16311C now common stocks Middle East in Solutrean layer samples of the Cave of Nerja and the Chalcolithic sites of Tres Montes and Abauntz, moves to think of a link by matrilineal between these ancient populations and current populations of East Next. The lack of information prevents other periods dating the potential connection. However, the absence of this motif in our sample Neolithic Next East could indicate that this connection back to the Neolithic PPNB.
37. The presence of about 50% SSA lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in the Chalcolithic deposits of Abauntz and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence in the past of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region. The low frequency of these lineages in the current population suggests that Spanish has gene replacement occurred since the Chalcolithic. The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods. The presence of phylogenetically related sequences in the Chalcolithic deposits Iberian Peninsula in Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples Middle East aims to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
38. Haplogroup V supposedly originating in the Pyrenean-Cantabrian strip, is absent in samples Chalcolithic period of Abauntz Navarre deposits and Tres Montes. The results suggest that the high frequency current haplogroup mentioned in this area is probably due to other factors such as genetic drift and founder effects.
39. Overall, the results show that since the Neolithic has a change in the composition of mitochondrial populations of Syria and Iberian Peninsula. The conclusions derived from mtDNA diversity in current populations should take this factor into consideration. ***Mike111 is right!!!!***
40. None of the old sequences recovered, partial or complete, exhibits a mutational pattern comparable to that of Neanderthal specimens studied to date. The result is to suggest that, had produced a contribution Neanderthal the European gene pool, it would have been lost before the Neolithic.
===\\\
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
More papers were uploaded the past couple of days. Some physical anthropology stuff as well as aDNA stuff.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Swenet
quote:One thing I don't/didn't like about ESR is that control is in the hands of a group of ES posters who are used to rooting for and agreeing with each other in terms of the subject matter that the forum is about. That setup just seems to me to have too much of a potential for (unintentional) polarity and nepotism, judging by the predominantly Euronut forums like Dodona and Biodiversity, although it may not have played out that way on ESR.
No such worries out side of cussing and dropping F and N bombs general trolling and anti racist statement of any kind non who police the site will gang up on anyone matter of fact past criticism is that we react too slowly to breach of etiquette.
When ES breathes its last breath ESR will likely become the next haven. Along with this migration of netizens, more polarity will undoubtedly surface there, and thus, more challenges and responsibilities for the mods. When that time comes I hope you guys will maintain that sense of impartiality.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I can vouch for Brada's impartiality, deligence and tenacity. Z-man is not far behind. Heavy....Bass...
If Sage can post more authentic and interesting Egyptology stuff ESR will where it is at.
I would like to see more egyptology stuff, like "races of man", translation of text, etc
400-600hits per day is not bad. ESR has come a long way.
///==
tyepzeiss--- stuff like this is interesting and would be great on ESR and would be easy to find.
==\
I recently ran across this Ebook..
Slave To King: The African Rulers of Medieval Yemen
Date MF date don't wanna waste time chasin downlvl papers
EDIT: scratch that already got it on my ext-stg
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Google translator was used for this…take what you may from this, but the conclusion further confirms Africans migrating into the Levant and Iberia since Paleoltihic times.. As I said aDNA will expose the lies. Charts and tables will be posted on ESR.
Population Studies through aDNA – Eva Fernandez Dominguez
///=== CONCLUSIONS POPULATION 26. Reynolds distance and cluster analysis show that all three sets defined sample ("Paleolithic", "Middle Eastern Neolithic" and "Neolithic of the Iberian peninsula ") are phylogenetically CLOSER to each other than to the current populations.
27. The three sample sets have generally a large number of haplotypes unrepresented or low frequency current populations.
28. Although ancient populations differ from current procedures situate phylogenetic reconstruction old as closely haplotypes related to current and indicate that, old and new, come from a common gene pool.
29. The Middle East Neolithic samples have high genetic diversity dis-similar to the current populations of the same geographic region.
30. The Near Eastern Neolithic samples are frequency composition and haplotypes and haplogroups different from the current population of the same region Geographic. It is inferred that in the Middle East there has been a change in the genetic composition from the Neolithic.
31. The presence of rare haplotypes currently common to some Neolithic samples from Tell Ramad and Druze population of the current Israel, suggests a likely relationship between both matrilineal.
32. The presence of mitochondrial variations in the sample ***sub-Saharan***, Neolithic Middle East, analyzed, suggests that gene flow between this region and the continent Africa has been occurring since before the Neolithic.
33. Haplogroups proposed as markers to Neolithic expansion Europe FROM the Middle East, especially the haplogroup J-, are not former present in the sample obtained in this geographic area. If we discard the sampling bias as the cause, the results suggest that: 1) or populations Neolithic that spread in Europe belonged to a later archaeological phase, or 2) the current substructure haplogroup J does **NOT** have its origin in the Neolithic. .
34. Considering only the composition of the samples lineages neolithic Middle East, it is equally possible that the mitochondrial diversity appropriate European populations: 1) of the Neolithic demographic expansions, 2) of genetic continuity from Paleolithic.
35. The oldest samples of the Iberian Peninsula are analyzed here composition and haplotypes and haplogroups frequency different from Iberian populations current, suggesting that since the Neolithic there has been a change in the genetic composition of these populations.
36. The presence of the motif 16126C-16311C now common stocks Middle East in Solutrean layer samples of the Cave of Nerja and the Chalcolithic sites of Tres Montes and Abauntz, moves to think of a link by matrilineal between these ancient populations and current populations of East Next. The lack of information prevents other periods dating the potential connection. However, the absence of this motif in our sample Neolithic Next East could indicate that this connection back to the Neolithic PPNB.
37. The presence of about 50% SSA lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in the Chalcolithic deposits of Abauntz and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence in the past of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region. The low frequency of these lineages in the current population suggests that Spanish has gene replacement occurred since the Chalcolithic. The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods. The presence of phylogenetically related sequences in the Chalcolithic deposits Iberian Peninsula in Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples Middle East aims to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
38. Haplogroup V supposedly originating in the Pyrenean-Cantabrian strip, is absent in samples Chalcolithic period of Abauntz Navarre deposits and Tres Montes. The results suggest that the high frequency current haplogroup mentioned in this area is probably due to other factors such as genetic drift and founder effects.
39. Overall, the results show that since the Neolithic has a change in the composition of mitochondrial populations of Syria and Iberian Peninsula. The conclusions derived from mtDNA diversity in current populations should take this factor into consideration. ***Mike111 is right!!!!***
40. None of the old sequences recovered, partial or complete, exhibits a mutational pattern comparable to that of Neanderthal specimens studied to date. The result is to suggest that, had produced a contribution Neanderthal the European gene pool, it would have been lost before the Neolithic.
===\\\
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Due to the latest wave of ES management shitting on what we've built here, I and others will not be posting in this forum for the time being. We've retreated to the FB group described here, contemplating our next move and posting data.
Brada, Calabooz, King_Scorpion and other reputable ES members, if you still want to join, it's not too late. Shoot me a PM! Again, this is not my forum or my group or my anything, the admin system is democratic, so its everyone's group. You'll feel at home.
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
What about ESR? Is anyone backing up this info?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Is anyone backing up what info? To replace ES, most people at the Facebook group are considering ESR and TNV.
This is directed to everyone (including the lurkers): should ES be disbanded or become inaccessible again, you should go to ESR as that's where most people seem to say they'll go to.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^I love you too.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd. Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd.
The scientific input and arguments by that one are overwhelming.
What can we do? Sarcasm.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd.
The scientific input and arguments by that one are overwhelming.
What can we do? Sarcasm.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd.
The Facebook group is really gaining momentum right now. We're uploading new papers left and right and discussing them without any trolls. ~11 ES members have signed up for this Facebook group, with some non-ES members. Why still waste your time here on ES with the trolls? Accept that invitation already, both you and TP. If either of you have lost the invitation I'll e-mail you another one. You guys are missing out.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Let's see...700 hits per day....vs 11 members. Huuhmmmmmm. Tough choice....
Posted by blingdogg (Member # 21572) on :
If you guys on Facebook could occasionally share some important info you discuss there, that would be nice.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd.
The scientific input and arguments by that one are overwhelming.
What can we do? Sarcasm.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least on ESR we don't have to deal with idiotic trolls like the Great Turd.
The Facebook group is really gaining momentum right now. We're uploading new papers left and right and discussing them without any trolls. ~11 ES members have signed up for this Facebook group, with some non-ES members. Why still waste your time here on ES with the trolls? Accept that invitation already, both you and TP. If either of you have lost the invitation I'll e-mail you another one. You guys are missing out.
Yes, I did receive your invitation. But I am seldom on Facebook, and that account is solely for connection with family members.
As of now I am also busy with updating my programming skills, as a code writer. That's also the reason why I'm not as often on here no more.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Troll Patrol
Just use a sock facebook account like I am doing. Not your personal one.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Just use a sock facebook account like I am doing. Not your personal one.
Yeah, that could do it. But I am still dealing with the scarce time and space.
But it handy to share the papers I own. That's true.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Let's see...700 hits per day....vs 11 members. Huuhmmmmmm. Tough choice....
It's like the difference between al-Nusra and the Free Syrian Army. Yeah, the Nusra front are fewer in number, but they run things on the ground in Syria. The Facebook group is designed to have a high ratio of contributing members. ES has 20k registered members but you can count the active posters on 2 hands.
We've easily uploaded and discussed 4x more Africa centered papers in the short time we've been up than ES has in the same period. Almost all posts are important, with very little filler material (unlike here on ES), and we don't flood the group with ripped off abstracts from Dienekes and other blogs like Lioness does. Not so impressive now, eh, those 700 non-contributive visitors? Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Just use a sock facebook account like I am doing. Not your personal one.
Yeah, that could do it. But I am still dealing with the scarce time and space.
But it handy to share the papers I own. That's true.
You can log in whenever you want. You don't have to give up ES. Take your time and think it through. E=mail me when you're ready.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Just use a sock facebook account like I am doing. Not your personal one.
Yeah, that could do it. But I am still dealing with the scarce time and space.
But it handy to share the papers I own. That's true.
You can log in whenever you want. You don't have to give up ES. Take your time and think it through. E=mail me when you're ready.
Somewhere next week.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Swenet, haven't seen the Facebook page. What is the link? It says your email box is full. Send me details. Thanks.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@TP, alright, let me know.
@Zaharan, just cleared my inbox. There is no link. The group is sealed off and private. If I'll post a link, you'll get a facebook message saying that it's a private group. The focus is on sharing, learning and discussing papers and other material we come across, by and for regular posters, not informing the public. That's where ES and ESR come in. Read the OP for the full rationale behind why I reinvigorated this group and kept it closed off.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Test post #1. Just ignore it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Test post #2. Just ignore it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Have you ever come across Egmond Codfried in Amersterdam?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
You miss my presence, don't you?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Have you ever come across Egmond Codfried in Amersterdam?
Egmond Codfried is from Den Haag (The Hague).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
32 miles away
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] You miss my presence, don't you?
yeah,
you read the whole paper yet?
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe. 2013
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 32 miles away
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] You miss my presence, don't you?
yeah,
you read the whole paper yet?
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe. 2013
That's a hot topic on ES now?
From the FB group:
quote:A study of cribra orbitalia over time and space in the ancient Nile Valley (2013)
Abstract: Cribra orbitalia is one of the most common skeletal lesions noted in ancient human skeletal remains excavated from the Nile Valley. Although its etiology remains under debate, recent research suggests that cribra orbitalia is caused primarily by hemolytic anemia. Research indicates that hemolytic anemia caused by malaria results in increased cribra orbitalia. Further, several independent researchers, using aDNA sequencing of ancient Egyptian mummies, found direct evidence of Plasmodium falciparum malaria. This direct evidence verifies the presence of malaria in antiquity, but the prevalence and spread of the disease remains unknown. As some models have pointed to the Nile Valley as the pathway of malaria from Africa to Europe within the time frame of Dynastic Egypt, variability in levels of cribra orbitalia should provide a way to track the spread of this disease. This study surveyed cribra orbitalia frequencies at 29 ancient Nile Valley sites, representing 4,760 individuals ranging from prehistoric to Christian periods (4400 BC – 1500 AD) and situated between upper Nubia and the Nile delta. Results showed generally high cribra orbitalia rates between 10.8% and 78.7% of the total population affected, with an overall mean of 42.8%. Over time and geographical location, the data showed no significant correlation, suggesting that high levels of hemolytic anemia affected individuals in the Nile Valley equally from pre-dynastic to Christian periods. These findings, together with the aDNA evidence, support the hypothesis that malaria was already widespread and endemic in the Nile Valley long before the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt.
If Marin et al 1999's results are repeatable, ~50% of these cases of hemolytic anaemia in the Egypto- Nubian samples from this 2013 study have sickle cell or the sickle cell trait.
quote:Abstract We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia, while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders. DNA was extracted from dental samples with a silica-gel method specific for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), called amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide mutations. In this method, amplification can occur only in the presence of the specific mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three individuals, there was a band at the level of the HbS mutated fragment, indicating that they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of our results, we discuss the possible uses of new molecular investigation systems in paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.
^^^ could you give me your comment on the relevance of the above? Is it sickle cell = African Egyptians ? and on Malaria? I'm not up on this disease ancestry stuff too much
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Anaemia is the loss of the body's ability to distribute oxygen. Anaemia can be caused by all conditions that destroy or negatively affect red blood cells. Chronic anaemia leaves traces of damage in the skeleton (lesions). Several of these traces (e.g. cribra orbitalia) have been found at high frequencies in Egypto-Nubian samples. In and of itself this doesn't say much because any illness that attacks red blood cells or interferes with their ability to distribute oxygen will cause anaemia, from malaria to sickle cell to iron deficiency. Of course, this ambiguity causes the mere diagnosis of anaemia in the skeletal record to have little value when it comes to discerning the root causes for these lesions.
That's why several teams of researchers set out to get some clarity. The following team laid to bed the notion that signs of anaemia in AE can be completely explained by factors like malnutrition and riverine parasites, because they find that 92% of the predynastic Gebelein/Assiut mummies housed in Turin that had skeletal damage consistent with anaemia also tested positive for malaria:
quote:Although there are various causes of hyperostosis and cribra orbitalia (nutritional deficiency, hemoglobinopathies, Fe deficiency, etc.), it is quite interesting to observe a very high frequency (92%) of these patterns in subjects positive for Plasmodium falciparum infection (Figure 5 ). This suggests that malaria was an important cause of anemia in this population
A year prior to the above study Marin et al already proved that ~50% (3/6) of the mummies with skeletal signs of severe anaemia had the HbS mutation on chromosome 11 that causes sickle cell and the sickle cell trait.
Keita 2003 attributed anaemia in the Nile Valley to riverine parasites and malnutrition. Not sure to what extent Keita was aware of Marin et al 1999 and Massa et al 2000, but what they show in concert is that anaemia in the Nile Valley cannot be dissociated from HbS and malaria. Also, the 2013 study I posted overturns Keita 2003. They had a much larger sample which includes the entire Egypto-Nubian Nile Valley and spans millennia but they don't replicate Keita's findings that anaemia associated lesions increased with predynastic settlements alongside parasite infested water:
quote:Over time and geographical location, the data showed no significant correlation, suggesting that high levels of hemolytic anemia affected individuals in the Nile Valley equally from pre-dynastic to Christian periods.
--Smith 2013
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: @Troll Patrol
Just use a sock facebook account like I am doing. Not your personal one.
Yeah, that could do it. But I am still dealing with the scarce time and space.
But it handy to share the papers I own. That's true.
You can log in whenever you want. You don't have to give up ES. Take your time and think it through. E=mail me when you're ready.
Somewhere next week.
TP, FB won't allow me to send an invitation twice to the same email address. You'll have to accept the one I've already emailed you or give me a new email address so I can re-invite you.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Ok,
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Someone I'm not sure I know from this forum (this person used what seemed to be his government name) has requested entry to an old and abandoned facebook group. I haven't accepted because there is no activity in that group. To whoever sent me that invite request: I have no way of knowing who you are so I can't PM you. If you want in and you're willing to comply with the basic terms of posting Africana developments every once in a while, you'll have to send me an email address, real or fake, and I'll send you an invitation. You're not going to find the active FB group by using FB's search engine.
Someone else has also applied for access to the same dated and abandoned FB group. I've sent you a PM. Check your inbox.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ which ES members are currently posting on the page?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Interesting. I missed the latter part of this thread. I tried making the connection with the type of anemia and ancient Peoples of Lerna and Sardinia.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ could you give me your comment on the relevance of the above? Is it sickle cell = African Egyptians ? and on Malaria? I'm not up on this disease ancestry stuff too much
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
I'm in
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
This is not in reference to anyone in particular but I still get PMs from time to time in regards to the FB group and some people apply for one of the old FB groups that hasn't been active for years. If you see an Egyptsearch facebook group in google or in some other search engine, it's not the active one described in this thread, because it's invisible without an invitation.
Also, I'm not looking for new membership unless you have journal access or some demonstrable speciality like being able to run published genomes. If not then there are plenty of other fora to join like ESR, biodiversityforum or whatever else is available today.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Bump for who sent me a PM. Please refer to the OP for more information.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Reposted from a conversation elsewhere:
quote: Originally posted by Jefferson Davis: This whingeing 'Swenet' fellow seems to spend an awful lot of time styling himself a 'bwana' of matters. But his little empire belongs on Facebook not here, and we have been well informed by his own servitors in these pages of his petty, niggling 'leadership' style. Apparently his followers are less than enthused, but labour on fitfully in dread of the 'bwana's ban.' It is not surprising that some seek refuge here. Take your pettifogging rubbish elsewhere old chap. You are nothing special. Tropicals is free to post, and you don't dictate anything here.
As expected, this Jefferson Davis character is up to speed with the latest gossip and rumors, directly undermining his claim that "no one cares". It's interesting that this dictatorship perception exist for the only anthro forum I know where things are as democratic and free of drama, as is possible when dealing with people, and we achieved that without any looming threat of having your post deleted or some mod bossing you around. The irony is that this is precisely what is happening on ES, but others, who never created such an atmosphere, somehow end up with this rep.
I also find it interesting that 9 times out of 10 when I speak on the group here, it's after some gossiping non-member brought it up. I know fan boy behavior when I see it.
Given the fact that the members rarely bring the group up, public perception of the group is shaped by disgruntled ex-members (e.g. "Tropicals Redacted" who left on his own accord because he was told "black" isn't a race) and rumor-reveling fan boys such as yourself who have never learned that disgruntled gossipers have ulterior motives and aren't reliable sources. Comes with the territory of belonging to a private group, I guess; self-righteous fan boys will come out the woodworks with unprovoked hostility, pick sides and start rumors.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jefferson Davis: But his little empire belongs on Facebook not here, and we have been well informed by his own servitors in these pages of his petty, niggling 'leadership' style.
Can someone who has actually been to the FB group, confirm that anyone on the FB group carries himself as this witless buffoon, is describing in this unprovoked rant?
Did I ever break my promise when I wrote the following, at the time of the FB group's formation?
Again, this is not my forum or my group or my anything, the admin system is democratic, so its everyone's group. You'll feel at home. --Swenet (16 October, 2013)
*Did I ever harass someone on the FB group?
*In the few instances that I have used my mod power, did I ever moderate in ways not agreed to on this page and in PMs, right before each member was invited?
*Did I ever use my mod power to get back at individuals I have had disagreements with on ES?
If no one comes forth confirming any of these accusations, I'll take it as a no. It's the burden of the deluded instigators who dream up these accusations, to start providing proofs.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Just wait for the sound of crickets.
(........)
I'll be waiting for detractors to surface with proofs. Especially that disgruntled "Tropicals Redacted" character. But none of them will rise to the challenge (mark my words).
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
It is my perception that in-fighting within the ES community has increased in the last few years, but I wouldn't attribute any of that to how the Facebook group is run.
I believe that, ever since those DNA Tribes reports on Egyptian mummies came out, certain posters interpreted the MLI scores as vindicating their desire to wholly immerse ancient Nile Valley populations within the archetypical West/Central African clade. Once reminded of all the other bio-anthropological data showing the picture to be much more complex, and that the pre-OOA component in Egypto-Nubian ancestry couldn't be totally dismissed, they didn't take it so well. Almost all the bickering I've seen between ES veterans in the past two years can be traced to that underlying discomfort.
I'd say the problem has less to do with the Facebook group itself than a slight paradigm shift that not everyone has adjusted to.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
WTF did you just say?
1. ES/E was always about beef whether against Euro-centric and/or differing points of view amongst Afro-centric 2. Most diasporans and maybe born West Africans do NOT consider themselves direct “descendents” of AE. But the fact AEians are black and are indigenous Africans and those have a close relationship to West Africans than any other ethnic group OUTSIDE the continent. More than the delusional Europeans using the word “Caucasoid” to steal an African populations. After conceding that the AEians are Africans they are trying to parse out the “black”. No longer using Caucasoid A. Egyptian it is “tan” Egyptians. Lol! 3. What is a “pre-OOA componen in Egypto-Nubian ancestry couldn't t”? More BS from the “truth” 4. No one really cares about the FB except to hear the juicy gossip like a soap opera. Why have an exclusive group? Some of us here read studies, analyze it, then post for everyone to see and critique. If the FB group are intent on breaking down EuroCentric walls then why not post your findings or papers openingly. To tell then truth I haven’t seen anything really come out of the FB group except for that scanned paper with the mtDNA Hg that Beyoku posted. The one on during “Roman” occupation deep in the Sahara. . 5. No dis-respect to the FB group. But what is the point? You are welcome here and ESR 6. Most posters can’t even interpret the charts and graph besides regurgitating the shallow comment of the labels “Eurasian” and “back-migration”.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It is my perception that in-fighting within the ES community has increased in the last few years, but I wouldn't attribute any of that to how the Facebook group is run.
I believe that, ever since those DNA Tribes reports on Egyptian mummies came out, certain posters interpreted the MLI scores as vindicating their desire to wholly immerse ancient Nile Valley populations within the archetypical West/Central African clade. Once reminded of all the other bio-anthropological data showing the picture to be much more complex, and that the pre-OOA component in Egypto-Nubian ancestry couldn't be totally dismissed, they didn't take it so well. Almost all the bickering I've seen between ES veterans in the past two years can be traced to that underlying discomfort.
I'd say the problem has less to do with the Facebook group itself than a slight paradigm shift that not everyone has adjusted to.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by xyyman: Why have an exclusive group?
How many people do you see here proactively going out and bring back things to read? Pretty much no one. Everyone just sits on their lazy behinds, waiting for others to bring in information. If you make the board exclusive, you can make sure everyone understands what they sign up for (they'll have to agree to a certain willingness to contribute) and they can be held accountable should they decide to just log in to leech and not give back. THAT's why.
Not that I keep track of what everyone does (every one in the group should have the decency to keep track of their contributions, themselves), but if you've used a membership torrent site that keeps track of your sharing ratio, you know this WORKS and WHY. People will just come and parasite off others' hard work. If everyone or a majority starts doing this, you'll have an unsustainable community or one that only sustains as long as the top posters hold on.
Look at how most people did ESR and other initiatives people launched from ES. People just come to take and don't give back. By making it exclusive I wanted to nip that in the bud and make invitees more self- conscious of their own contributions, or lack thereof.
So of course people are going to get let go, as some will try to leech anyway, despite prior agreements. But I fail to see what removing such posters has to do with leadership dysfunction or wrongdoings on our part.
That's all there is to it. Of course, I've said this several times before. Maybe it's so hard to understand because this concept is so foreign to ES; a community known for taking whippings from Sammy (lol, did Sammy just recently redirect Ausar's whistle button notification to his own email address?), only to bend over willingly.
ES has been robbed naked; you see ES type thinking all over the net. But when ES is in its time of need, look at how many lurkers have jumped in to help save it. Why do you think that is?
If ES' owner pulls the plug, they will just migrate to the next shiny internet forum to lurk and get their jollies off. No loyalty whatsoever.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
(lol, did Sammy just recently redirect Ausar's whistle button notification to his own email address?)
. No. All management and a forum's mods are e-mailed when the ReportPost icon gets clicked. Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: and that the pre-OOA component in Egypto-Nubian ancestry couldn't be totally dismissed
For the record, as far as I know, nobody dismiss the pre-OOA component in Egypto-Nubian ancestry and in fact in the ancestry of most African populations (Somali, Yoruba, Bantu, Wolof, etc).
All the contrary, I think it is VERY interesting to see most of the modern African populations sharing pre-OOA components.
We know all OOA populations are descendants of the upstream L3 MtDNA haplogroups and upstream CT Y-DNA haplogroup lineage.
Both the L3 and CT haplogroup lineages can be seen all over Africa in many populations such as Somali, Yoruba, Bantu, etc.
For example, using the numbers from the study called Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations by Hirbo (2011) . We can see that both East and West Africans carry the African L3 haplogroups (excluding Eurasian M, N of course). For example, Yoruba got 45.45% of L3, while Somali 44.68% of L3.
The same thing for Y-DNA (using numbers from here) :
Yoruba CT 93.1% (in the form of CT/E/P2/E1b1a) Somali CT 81.1% (in the form of CT/E/P2/E1b1b)
Of course nowadays Somali are closer to OOA migrants due to "recent" post-OOA admixtures with Eurasians like Semitic people (Ethio-semitic speakers, Muslim Arabs, etc).
This proximity between most modern African populations can also be seen autosomally by the modest Fst value between SSA populations(which include East and West/Bantu Africans). Of course those are the same populations which carry the haplogroup P2 in great proportion:
"On examining ~2.2 million variants, we found modest differentiation among SSA populations (mean pairwise FST 0.019) (Supplementary Methods and Supplementary Table 1)."
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I believe that, ever since those DNA Tribes reports on Egyptian mummies came out, certain posters interpreted the MLI scores as vindicating their desire to wholly immerse ancient Nile Valley populations within the archetypical West/Central African clade. Once reminded of all the other bio-anthropological data showing the picture to be much more complex
I agree with you. When we agree nor modern East Africans like Somali, nor modern West/Southern Africans like Yoruba/Bantu are direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians. The rest of the discussion is purely trivial.
Yes, I do admit, it's quite possible (based on cranio-facial measurements for example) for Ancient Egyptians to more closely related to modern East Africans than modern West Africans (which otherwise share a common P2 origin after the OOA between each others). See HERE too.
While Ramses III was determined to be E1b1a, rare or absent in modern Eastern Africa and widespread in the rest of Africa and in African-Americans. He may as well be E1b1b since those 2 haplogroups are close to each other and separated by a few mutations. They are both descendant of the P2 haplogroup as discussed above.
Although it would be surprising because DNA Tribes using the autosomal STR value of the BMJ and JAMA study determined the Great Lakes, Southern and West African regions to be the locations were the STR value of the mummies are more prevalent in modern time. The same regions mostly inhabited by people from the E1b1a lineage.
So it's true that cranio-facial measurements (for example) cannot be dismissed but nor does genetic results.
And for the record, I think it's quite possible for Ancient Egyptians to be more closely related to modern East Africans than modern West Africans. We don't see it genetically yet but we see it with cranio-facial measurements for example. This is not a problem for me at all. The whole argument for me is trivial (I almost never discuss it beside now) since nor modern Eastern or modern Western Africans are direct descendant of Ancient Egyptians.
I hope this post and clarifications can disminish or eliminate the disagreements with each others.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
WTF? Didn't Amun Ra just accuse me of going off-topic in his thread to the point of requesting my posts to be deleted? I then leave his thread, only for him to follow me here and start funking up my thread a day later with his stenchy self-authored and unsourced off-topic commentary. Really? Wow.
I also have no idea why this known spammer who always reposts E-M2 density maps and lengthy self-authored monologues out of previous threads, has the nerve to talk about forum etiquette in the first place.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: WTF? Didn't Amun Ra just accuse me of going off-topic in his thread to the point of requesting my posts to be deleted? I then leave his thread, only for him to follow me here and start funking up my thread a day later with his stenchy self-authored and unsourced off-topic commentary. Really? Wow.
None of your posts were deleted and I was responding to Truthcentric's post in this thread.
I really hope those clarifications of my positions help reduce the animosity between Truthcentric, you and me.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Why do you use my thread as a medium for you to clarify yourself? And why doesn't this amount to off-topic commentary when you do it (when I made clarifications when Tropicals Redacted went on lengthy off-topic rants, you blamed me for his behavior)? As a matter of fact, why are you still giving off-topic commentary, even as I'm pointing it out?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Why do you use my thread as a medium for you to clarify yourself?
I was responding to Truthcentric's post...
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Is this guy kidding me? WHY are you still giving off-topic commentary?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ AMRTU you really need to cite your sources more. We get the DNATribes thing but some of the other stuff.....otherwise you come off as a ...troll. As I said, we get the DNATribes thing. No one disagrees with you.
It is irritationg if sources are not cited.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ....self-authored and unsourced off-topic commentary. ....
Posted by Jefferson Davis (Member # 17210) on :
To wit, as 'xyzman' charges the Facebook empire has not contributed anything much, \\\\ 'I haven’t seen anything really come out of the FB group except for that scanned paper with the mtDNA Hg that Beyoku posted. The one on during “Roman” occupation deep in the Sahara..' \\\
But snatches and bits of that paper were already referenced here before and floating around in other places, and it offers little that is new, which confirms 'xyzman' that nothing really comes from the bwanas 'democratic' bastion except a dog's breakfast of trivial squabbling and dirty linen. Even the daft 'dead' on Rationalwiki (he was to be drummed out) produced more output. The lad Tropicals has brought out the shambolic state of things in the 'empire', where petticoat dictators demand that servitors toe 'the line.' Then when anyone develops his own line of inquiry like Tropicals, they jump down on him, so the pettifoggers can take the credit. It is interesting that the pettifogging bwanas have unleashed such a torrent of posts against the 'heretic' Tropicals but have yet to do anything constructive over here. It's all about their petty infighting. Better these triflers return to Facebook where they can carry on squabbling amidst their dirty linen.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^ ? - I did not see it "floating around the web". I believe Beyoku said he scanned it himself.
Agreed Cass brings it(albeit outdated)…references his sources but the Petti –Coat leader (Swenet) does an outstanding job at that. Maybe one of the best at citing sources.
------ anyways
That is one of the reasons I don’t visit other forums. 95% of their post is unsubstantiated personnel opinions. 2 paragraphs of BS hypothetical’s. It pisses me off. At least most posters here cite their sources even when we disagree on views.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ AMRTU you really need to cite your sources more. We get the DNATribes thing but some of the other stuff.....otherwise you come off as a ...troll. As I said, we get the DNATribes thing. No one disagrees with you.
It is irritationg if sources are not cited.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ....self-authored and unsourced off-topic commentary. ....
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Another unsourced loon
Hey buffoon, I've been posting here for five/six years. Plenty opportunity for resident posters to get to know me and vouch for whether they recognize me in your eccentric space cake descriptions. But it seems none of them have come forward to vouch for the veracity of your fan boy storytelling efforts, lol. You lose again
Not that it's not entertaining to know that some random fan boy has been keeping tabs on me. What else you got? Any more "dirt" on "Bwana" Swenet and his empire? LMAO at these thirsty fruitbaskets; they actively gather intel on me and what they call "the empire" and then turn around and scream "no one cares" when these topics come up. Lol.
quote:Originally posted by Jefferson Davis: To wit, as 'xyzman' charges the Facebook empire has not contributed anything much, \\\\ 'I haven’t seen anything really come out of the FB group except for that scanned paper with the mtDNA Hg that Beyoku posted. The one on during “Roman” occupation deep in the Sahara..' \\\
But snatches and bits of that paper were already referenced here before and floating around in other places, and it offers little that is new, which confirms 'xyzman' that nothing really comes from the bwanas 'democratic' bastion except a dog's breakfast of trivial squabbling and dirty linen. Even the daft 'dead' on Rationalwiki (he was to be drummed out) produced more output. The lad Tropicals has brought out the shambolic state of things in the 'empire', where petticoat dictators demand that servitors toe 'the line.' Then when anyone develops his own line of inquiry like Tropicals, they jump down on him, so the pettifoggers can take the credit. It is interesting that the pettifogging bwanas have unleashed such a torrent of posts against the 'heretic' Tropicals but have yet to do anything constructive over here. It's all about their petty infighting. Better these triflers return to Facebook where they can carry on squabbling amidst their dirty linen.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ AMRTU you really need to cite your sources more.
Here's more sources from Keita (E-P2 and PN2 are different names for the same thing, the same haplogroup):
quote:"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse . African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other .."
-From (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
quote:".. there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ‘‘racially’’ different, with ‘‘racially’’ implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.." - From S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679–689, 2004.)
Get it? Got it?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
got it! and like it but outdated....nevertheless
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: got it!
Good. You got it now. Now I'm just waiting for Truthcentric...
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Just wait for the sound of crickets.
(........)
I'll be waiting for detractors to surface with proofs. Especially that disgruntled "Tropicals Redacted" character. But none of them will rise to the challenge (mark my words).
Is the face forum still active? If so, how can I join. Post me at my hotmail /live email.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
I would join, but the OP clearly states that one must contribute and I do not want to be a burden.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Yes, it's still active but it's not as busy currently. I'm also blogging and doing other stuff in life, so I'm spread a little thin. However, there is a huge stockpile of PDFs, book pics, and there is no trolling or drama. You're free to browse and contribute, TP.
@BlessedbyHorus
All it takes is willingness. It doesn't take much to familiarize yourself with how search engines work and putting a hour in weekly or so to search for new research involving prehistoric Africa. Try make a list of keywords and search regularly based on the keywords on your list and see if new articles come up. Then use filters like "only show last month" to not have to wade through old stuff. It's not hard.
That's why I don't take kindly to people who agree to the conditions beforehand and then have selective memory about it being a win/win situation once they're inside. Some had the time to always be the first one to download a new post on the FB group, but they never had time to keep an eye out for new studies, news articles, etc. What I've noticed is that often it's pure unwillingness or laziness, as opposed to being genuinely busy.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
TP. There should already be an invitation in your email inbox. I'll try to send another one, but the last time I tried to invite a member twice, FB refused. If you can't find the invitation in your inbox, you can also email me a 2nd email account and I'll send you the invitation there.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
TP tried to send an invitation, but FB doesn't let me. You already have one in your inbox. If you can't find it, or the original invitation has expired, let me know and I'll send an invitation to another email address. If you already have an FB account ready for the FB group, I can also invite you directly, with your FB user name. Whatever works for you.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
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