quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Both originated in Africa, with "negroid" features being older, described as archaic.

The circa 12.000 years in West Africa is pure bigotry, since West Africans originated from East Africa in the first place, long before these 12.000 years.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Both originated in Africa, with "negroid" features being older, described as archaic.

The circa 12.000 years in West Africa is pure bigotry, since West Africans originated from East Africa in the first place, long before these 12.000 years.

---

If the most salient "Caucasoid" traits evolved in Africa, why are they absent from the fossils? Funny, I remember asking Afrocentrists this 6 years ago. No answer. Run away and hide again.

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1) Any of these threads has been found in a number of African populations.


2) Not because it hasn't been found it means it does't or didn't exist.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3003/2359958575_11b2091f1d_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2379/2475694262_dc81e52a78_o.jpg













 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
True, but one would expect to see these features on African fossils if they originated there. We don't. Tooth-size reduction began in Europe.

http://www.iu.edu/~semliki/PDFs/BraceRosenbergHunt87.pdf

"Human tooth size, crudely considered, was maintained at the same level through- out the Middle Pleistocene. With the onset of the last glaciation in the Late Pleistocene between 75,000 and 100,000 years ago, dental reduction began to occur among the northernmost inhabitants of the Old World for which we have evidence. Tooth size then began to reduce at a rate of roughly 1 % per 2,000 years until the end of the Pleistocene approximately 10,000 years ago." (Brace et al. 1987)
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
True, but one would expect to see these features on African fossils if they originated there. We don't. Tooth-size reduction began in Europe.

http://www.iu.edu/~semliki/PDFs/BraceRosenbergHunt87.pdf

"Human tooth size, crudely considered, was maintained at the same level through- out the Middle Pleistocene. With the onset of the last glaciation in the Late Pleistocene between 75,000 and 100,000 years ago, dental reduction began to occur among the northernmost inhabitants of the Old World for which we have evidence. Tooth size then began to reduce at a rate of roughly 1 % per 2,000 years until the end of the Pleistocene approximately 10,000 years ago." (Brace et al. 1987)

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quote:

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Nubia.-Similar trends of Post-Pleistocene dental reduction are also visible beginning in the Mesolithic in Nubia (Calcagno,1983a, 1983b),although there is reason to suspect that Mesolithic tooth size there was as much as 100mm 2 larger than it was in the Middle East and Europe(Greene et al., 1967).

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quote:

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One last question well worth more attention than it has received lies in the curiously specialized, almost more than modern, character of the Boskopoid line. By some writers, the development of Homo sapiens is correlated with civilization. It is pointed out that the Australian aborigines are macrodont and that civilized whites are microdont, and this is sometimes attributed (often with unconscious Lamarckian tendencies) to the influence of high culture.


That civilization has had, and is having, vast and unknown effects through selection upon human beings, it is not my purpose to deny. But the big-brained pedomorphic Boskopoids with their trend toward microdont dentition and reduced faces were no more civilized than the macrodont Australoids.

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quote:

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Metrically, Khoesan overall dental size is small, or microdont, in comparison to other human populations (Brace et al. 1991; Drennan 1929b; Haeussler et al. 1989; G.R. Scott and Turner 2000; Sperber 1958; Van Reenen 1964, 1966), and dental dimensions can be affected negatively by attrition shortly after eruption due to the nature of Khoesan diet (Van Reenen 1982).

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—Wendy Black

Dental morphology and variation across Holocene Khoesan people of southern Africa
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@FortyTribes. I guess you are right. The argument now is who has SMALLER teeth. lol! SMH
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


This man is Cameroonian.
Cameroon has frequencies of R1 in some populations at 90% frequency or more

Researchers have found that the TMRCA of the V88 clade of R1b was 9200-5600 kya

Haplogroup R is estimated to be 27,000 kya.
Only one confirmed example of basal R* has been found, in 24,000 year old remains,
known as MA1, found at Mal'ta near Lake Baikal in Siberia.
The most diverse varieties of haplogroup R are found in the population of Central Asia, Siberia and the Indian sub-continent. Therefore, the ancestral haplogroup R, is likely to be found where there is the highest diversity of subclades, a place where people live close to R1 *, R2 *, R1a and R1b. This is jointly found in modern China, Afghanistan, northern India and Pakistan: Punjab - Pamir - Xinjiang.

I don't know how it all adds up, you can do the math

The reason for his blue eyes may or may not be associated with this but since it's a possibility and haplogroup R has it's highest diversity and oldest human remains discovered outside of Africa, I would exclude using people from the Chad basin region as examples of indigenous blues eyes
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^ So what ethnic group has the most / highest of this V88 clade?


He is a Nkombe Cameroonian.


Some of the chromosome buildup of Hg R have been traced back to Africa, before the out of Africa occurred, which means the BASAL is right there in Africa.

So your theory makes no sense, but here is the math!

quote:

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The population of AMH spreading in the eastern direction included “softened” Mongoloid elements. The “dialectal continuum” consisting of Proto-Uralic, Proto-Altaic and Palaeo-Siberian- related languages formed the principal communication media of Early Modern Humans in northern Eurasia.

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quote:

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"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

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quote:

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deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

[…]


The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

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quote:

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When counting from the split of hg DE on the unrooted phylogenetic tree, MA-1 is determined to be carrying the derived allele in 183 sites and the ancestral allele in 1706 sites. The position of MA-1 on the phylogenetic tree is established by the state of the 313 basal mutations separating hgs DE and R, where MA-1 has 143 informative positions. Of these, 138 are in the derived and 5 in the ancestral state, placing MA-1 as a lineage basal to hg R.

With only a few exceptions characterized below, all other informative positions in MA-1 are in the ancestral state, further supporting the phylogenetic positioning of MA-1 on the tree.

[…]

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quote:

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The lack of Late Pleistocene human fossils from sub-Saharan Africa has limited paleontological testing of competing models of recent human evolution. We have dated a skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, to 36.2 ± 3.3 thousand years ago through a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods. The skull is morphologically modern overall but displays some archaic features. Its strongest morphometric affinities are with Upper Paleolithic (UP) Eurasians rather than recent, geographically proximate people. The Hofmeyr cranium is consistent with the hypothesis that UP Eurasians descended from a population that emigrated from sub-Saharan Africa in the Late Pleistocene.

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quote:

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3325407/table/Tab3/

In our data, with the exception of a low frequency haplotype in Africa, rs916977 and rs1667394 are in nearly complete LD. Therefore, we treat them as another haplotype system, BEH3, blue-eye associated haplotype #3. The blue-eye associated allele of BEH3 is CA, again the derived haplotype. In the HGDP populations BEH3 will consist of rs1667394 only since rs916977 is not present in the data set.

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quote:

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People with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor, according to new research.

A team of scientists has tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The mutation occurred between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, so before then, there were no blue eyes.


"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine at the University of Copenhagen.

The mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes and skin.

"A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.

The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue.

If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism.


"It's exactly what I sort of expected to see from what we know about selection around this area," said John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, referring to the study results regarding the OCA2 gene. Hawks was not involved in the current study.


Baby blues

Eiberg and his team examined DNA from mitochondria, the cells' energy-making structures, of blue-eyed individuals in countries including Jordan, Denmark and Turkey. This genetic material comes from females, so it can trace maternal lineages.

They specifically looked at sequences of DNA on the OCA2 gene and the genetic mutation associated with turning down melanin production.

Over the course of several generations, segments of ancestral DNA get shuffled so that individuals have varying sequences. Some of these segments, however, that haven't been reshuffled are called haplotypes. If a group of individuals shares long haplotypes, that means the sequence arose relatively recently in our human ancestors. The DNA sequence didn't have enough time to get mixed up.
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"What they were able to show is that the people who have blue eyes in Denmark, as far as Jordan, these people all have this same haplotype, they all have exactly the same gene changes that are all linked to this one mutation that makes eyes blue," Hawks said in a telephone interview.

Melanin switch

The mutation is what regulates the OCA2 switch for melanin production. And depending on the amount of melanin in the iris, a person can end up with eye color ranging from brown to green. Brown-eyed individuals have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production. But they found that blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes.

"Out of 800 persons we have only found one person which didn't fit — but his eye color was blue with a single brown spot," Eiberg told LiveScience, referring to the finding that blue-eyed individuals all had the same sequence of DNA linked with melanin production.

"From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor," Eiberg said. "They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA." Eiberg and his colleagues detailed their study in the Jan. 3 online edition of the journal Human Genetics.

That genetic switch somehow spread throughout Europe and now other parts of the world.

"The question really is, 'Why did we go from having nobody on Earth with blue eyes 10,000 years ago to having 20 or 40 percent of Europeans having blue eyes now?" Hawks said. "This gene does something good for people. It makes them have more kids."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] ^ So what ethnic group has the most / highest of this V88 clade?


He is a Nkombe Cameroonian.


Some of the chromosome buildup of Hg R have been traced back to Africa, before the out of Africa occurred, which means the BASAL is right there in Africa.

So your theory makes no sense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] ^ So what ethnic group has the most / highest of this V88 clade?


He is a Nkombe Cameroonian.


Some of the chromosome buildup of Hg R have been traced back to Africa, before the out of Africa occurred, which means the BASAL is right there in Africa.

So your theory makes no sense.

---

That's BS rhetoric you could say that about any haplogroup. What you said makes no sense as to the origin of R.

Has basal R* been found in Africa?

No

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quote:

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The position of MA-1 on the phylogenetic tree is established by the state of the 313 basal mutations separating hgs DE and R, where MA-1 has 143 informative positions.

---

quote:

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The first branching in the MSY tree has been reported to be the one that separates the African-specific clade A (called clade I in 10) from clade BT (clade II-X in 10), whereas the second branching determines the subdivision of BT in clades B, mostly African, and CT, which comprises the majority of African and all non-African chromosomes.13,14 This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribution of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans , 10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15,16

[...]

To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
zarahan, there's your proof once again if what I've been saying about Ish Gebor. You bring up any haplogroup and what he will say every time is the ancestor of that group leads back on the phylogenetic tree back to Africa so all haplogroups originate in Africa.

Go ahead ask him to name IN HIS OWN WORDS with no copy and paste to name one single haplogroup which is not African.
He will come up with nothing

I told you I have been watching du for years I know all his quirks, He's an algorithm bot, same thing year after year

---

quote:

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Phylogenetic Mapping

Most of the mutations here analyzed belong to the African portion of the MSY phylogeny, which is comprised of haplogroups A1b, A1a, A2, A3 and B [16]. Through phylogenetic mapping it was possible to identify 15 new African haplogroups and to resolve one basal trifurcation (Figure 1). A new deep branch within the ‘‘out of Africa’’ haplogroup C was also identified (Figure S1).

Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Fulvio Cruciani IS SAYING IT.

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quote:

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A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis...

Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times.

--Fulvio Cruciani

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yes you got me, he is saying it, you win



 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
He's constantly quoting cherry picks of researchers who say the opposite of what he thinks.

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quote:

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According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Fulvio Cruciani IS SAYING IT.

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quote:

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A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis.
--Fulvio Cruciani

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yes you got me, he is saying it

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ what you posted does not say in any form or fashion haplogroup R originated in Africa, close/life

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LOL SMH

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).



 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Ish Gebor, as Lioness says, this applies to every haplogroup, not to R specifically. It's just Out-of-Africa. Over 50 000 years ago, long before the origin of R in Eurasia.

Eurasian Y DNA in general is C, D, and F, branches of CDEF (CT), which is a sub-sub-sub-sub-branch of mostly-African Y DNA, hence we say that it originates in Africa and only migrated to Asia at a later period (around the CDEF-F level).

R1b-V88 is a sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-branch of mostly-Eurasian F, so we say that it originates in Eurasia and back-migrated to Africa.

If you want to throw out this logic then there is no grounds for Out-of-Africa in the first place.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Ish Gebor, as Lioness says, this applies to every haplogroup. It's Out-of-Africa.

Eurasian Y DNA in general is C, D, and F, branches of CDEF (CT), which is a sub-sub-sub-sub-branch of African Y DNA, hence we say that it originates in Africa and only migrated to Asia at a later period (around the CDEF-F level).

R1b-V88 is a sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-branch of non-African F, so we say that it originates in Eurasia and back-migrated to Africa.

If we want to throw out this logic then there is no grounds for Out-of-Africa or anything else.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
Yes, dumbass, mutations found in C and R are also found in DE. Those are the mutations of CDEF (CT). That's why there's a CDEF node. Like 75 000 years ago.

Also mutations found in A and B are found in C and R and DE too! Wow!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Yes, dumbass, mutations found in C and R are also found in DE. Those are the mutations of CDEF (CT). That's why there's a CDEF node. Like 75 000 years ago.

Also mutations found in A and B are found in C and R and DE too! Wow!

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quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

---

quote:

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"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
yes haplogroups magically stopped forming after people left Africa.
They decided they had enough mutating

---

LOL So tell, did people on the African continent had a long or shorter time for mutations compared to those outside of Africa?

This is a relatively simple question, so you should be able to answer this.





Have a nice one for now, I'll be back later… reading your revelations.
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Here's some for you Ish Gebor:

how many mutations are between the root of A and CDEF?

how many mutations are between CDEF and the present?

What's the difference between "a shorter time" and "no time"?

Are you an undergraduate's programming project that he's forgotten about?
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Here's some for you Ish Gebor:

how many mutations are between the root of A and CDEF?

how many mutations are between CDEF and the present?

What's the difference between "a shorter time" and "no time"?

Are you an undergraduate's programming project that he's forgotten about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

Also mutations found in A and B are found in C and R and DE too! Wow!

---

Yeah great isn't it? Cameroon? Weird.

quote:

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Genotyping of a DNA sample that was submitted to a commercial genetic-testing facility demonstrated that the Y chromosome of this African American individual carried the ancestral state of all known Y chromosome SNPs. To further characterize this lineage, which we dubbed A00 (see Figure S1, available online, for proposed nomenclature), we sequenced multiple regions (totaling ∼240 kb) of the X-degenerate portion of this chromosome, as well as a subset of these regions (∼180 kb) on a chromosome belonging to the previously known basal lineage A1b (which we rename here as A0).

---

quote:

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The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1)

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929711001649-gr1.jpg

.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
So... did you bother to find the answer written in the chromosomes?

Wait I forgot you don't even know what a chromosome is. Why am I trying to discuss this with you.

---

I really want to continue, but I need to go. Reread to posts. Have a nice one.

Let me pretend I don't know what a chromosome is, certainly Fulvio Cruciani does. lol


2011
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa

Am J Hum Genet. 2011 Jun 10; 88(6): 814–818.
doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2011.05.002


2012
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009656;p=1#000026
 

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Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
 
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Man, you're right Ish Gebor. Can you imagine if my ancestors came from Africa only five or ten thousand years ago rather than fifty thousand?! I would have to start burning crosses on my own lawn!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Punos Rey, I gather everyone is a Eurocentric until proven innocent.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


Some of the chromosome buildup...

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quote:

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The commonest type of nasal variability is Type A (70.5%), Platyrrhine nose, Type B (26.7%) especially in females (mesorrhine) and Type C (leptorrhine) (2.8%).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"...

---

So even though Upper Egyptians and specific "Nubians" share a common origin firmly in Africa all throughout the predynastic period, only one group is 'black'? Are Lower "Nubians" 'black'?

To say that a Northeast African population with no origins in "Eurasia", sharing a common origin with other closely related 'black' populations in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, with predominantly mahogany-brown skin is apparently crazy, but to assert that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant (no evidence) is the paragon of sanity?

I provided pictures of 'black' ethnic Egyptians in Southern Egypt and they undoubtedly would have been considered "lunatics" in Jim-Crow America had they professed that they were not 'black'. No one can dispute that Upper Egyptians and "Nubians" stem from a common origin and that they were virtually identical in the predynastic period, so it's inconceivable that only one can be 'black'.

PS: Unlike you, Capra does not argue that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant - a "Hamitic" race from "Eurasia" that brought civilization to the Nile valley before the Neolithic.
 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"...

---

So even though Upper Egyptians and specific "Nubians" share a common origin firmly in Africa all throughout the predynastic period, only one group is 'black'? Are Lower "Nubians" 'black'?

To say that a Northeast African population with no origins in "Eurasia", sharing a common origin with other closely related 'black' populations in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, with predominantly mahogany-brown skin is apparently crazy, but to assert that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant (no evidence) is the paragon of sanity?

I provided pictures of 'black' people in Southern Egypt and they undoubtedly would have been considered "lunatics" in Jim-Crow America had they professed that they were not 'black'. No one can dispute that Upper Egyptians and "Nubians" stem from a common origin and that they were virtually identical in the predynastic period, so it's inconceivable that only one can be 'black'.

PS: Unlike you, Capra does not argue that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant - a "Hamitic" race from "Eurasia" that brought civilization to the Nile valley before the Neolithic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:Its 'inconceivable' to you because you're a proponent of a loon pan-African political theory- where all Africans have to be "black". Let's compare Europe. There's also a skin colour cline/gradient from north-to-south. Southern Europeans are not "white", but a faint light brown so-called olive complexion. I've never labelled or considered Southern Europeans "white". Unlike the Afrocentric nutjobs here, I don't follow some bizarre continental/pan political ideology.

---

..mm ..mm

 

---

Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
Why did ancient Greeks and Romans distinguish their skin colour to more northern peoples?

Not all native populations in Europe are "white", like not all native populations in Africa are "black". This is the simple point I'm making. As I mentioned elsewhere, Afrocentrists are in denial the whole time about basic facts.
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
Uh... southern Europeans are generally considered white. Whiteness is generally Pan European as a concept. You choosing not to consider them white doesn't mean the world doesn't generally regard them as such.
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"...

---

So even though Upper Egyptians and specific "Nubians" share a common origin firmly in Africa all throughout the predynastic period, only one group is 'black'? Are Lower "Nubians" 'black'?

To say that a Northeast African population with no origins in "Eurasia", sharing a common origin with other closely related 'black' populations in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, with predominantly mahogany-brown skin is apparently crazy, but to assert that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant (no evidence) is the paragon of sanity?

I provided pictures of 'black' people in Southern Egypt and they undoubtedly would have been considered "lunatics" in Jim-Crow America had they professed that they were not 'black'. No one can dispute that Upper Egyptians and "Nubians" stem from a common origin and that they were virtually identical in the predynastic period, so it's inconceivable that only one can be 'black'.

PS: Unlike you, Capra does not argue that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant - a "Hamitic" race from "Eurasia" that brought civilization to the Nile valley before the Neolithic.

---

Its 'inconceivable' to you because you're a proponent of a loon pan-African political theory- where all Africans have to be "black". Let's compare Europe. There's also a skin colour cline/gradient from north-to-south. Southern Europeans are not "white", but a faint light brown so-called olive complexion. I've never labelled or considered Southern Europeans "white". Unlike the Afrocentric nutjobs here, I don't follow some bizarre continental/pan political ideology.

---

Yeah, but you're irrelevant, mate. The people that actually matter -> the elite of the West, do not subscribe to your laughably untenable colour gradient racial politics.

The entire identity and pride of the West is contingent on ancient Greece and Rome; the conventional perspective on the racial origins of the ancient Greeks as propagated by every Western University, is that they were an indigenous Indo-European population that made their way into Greece from the North and cannot be genetically, linguistically and culturaly extricated from other Europeans.

Ancient Greece and Rome are widely valorized in the West to the point that it is intellectually, politically and culturally institutionalized in every facet of Western life; they are considered racially European, and Northwest Europeans strongly identify with them on that basis. Northwest Europeans are eager to associate themselves with the material and philosophical achievements of the ancient Minoans, Greeks, Etruscans and Romans.

No consideration is given to your absurd colour gradient in all of Western academia in regard to ancient Greece and Rome, you befuddled little man. When the movie 300 came out, every white male I knew beamed with pride and proclaimed that the ancient Greeks protected the racial integrity of Europe with their valor.

Greeks and Italians are not "light-brown" and attempts to conflate your absurd description of them with the widely used *olive* descriptive, is ludicrous. These people consider themsleves white, and so I suppose that the entire West is loony.
 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
Read Guglielmo & Salerno's book, Are Italians White?. At one point, American immigration policy was based on favouring northern Europeans (English, Scandinavians, Dutch etc) i.e. southern Europeans like Italians were considered too swarthy skinned and inferior. Old American immigration policy was Anglocentric and/or Nordicist.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
Why did ancient Greeks and Romans distinguish their skin colour to more northern peoples?

Not all native populations in Europe are "white", like not all native populations in Africa are "black". This is the simple point I'm making. As I mentioned elsewhere, Afrocentrists are in denial the whole time about basic facts.

---

Why do Igbo distinguish their skin color from Yoruba? old Dahomey from yoruba? Fulani from the mandinka? the Nuba from the Dinka?
y'know one minute it's all about relativity, the next it is not... Have you seen the dinka, shiiiit... I guess 80% of the African Diaspora no longer in tropical regions are not "black." Have you read Moorjani 2013? (you did, we already had this discussion) That range of African or ancestral pigment gene carriers is over 2x's that of derived pigment genes, but its cool to call them all black, as long as their not A.Egyptian...? or nah? or are you splitting hairs and moving goalposts? there's a thread catered to you and this foolishness.... see here...
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009586
read review repeat.

I'm done with this talk here, and so should everyone else be if you ask me.
 

---

Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
Italian football team:



Do you see these as "white"? I don't.

Here's what actual white people look like-


Swedish football team.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
Read Guglielmo & Salerno's book, Are Italians White?. At one point, American immigration policy was based on favouring northern Europeans (English, Scandinavians, Dutch etc) i.e. southern Europeans like Italians were considered too swarthy skinned and inferior. Old American immigration policy was Anglocentric and/or Nordicist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
Italian football team:



Do you see these as "white"? I don't.

Here's what actual white people look like-


Swedish football team.

---

Yes, both teams are white and you would find it exceedingly difficult to find modern Greeks and Italians that don't consider themselves white. I'm of the opinion that you don't actually believe your laughably weak characterisation of Southern Europeans as anything but white. You're transparent, you know. You're just using this ridiculous line of argument in order to create the illusion of sensible and fair equivalence. It's an altogether insincere, empty rhetorical device meant only to disarm your opponents.

Are we really supposed to just throw out bio-anthropology, genetics, linguistics, archaeology and culture and concede that these disciplines are to be supplanted by subjective colour gradients formulated by a nobody lurking forums on the Internet?

Bottom line: Upper Egyptians and specific "Nubians" (Lower "Nubians" in particular) share a common origin in the predynastic period and were virtually identical anatomocally and culturally, and the fact that you only conveniently concede that "Nubians" were 'black' instead of being consistent and conceding that both siblings were 'black' in recognition of the fact that they both adapted to the same environment and produced remarkably similar cultures exposes your discomfort with these salient facts.

The funny thing is that your white brothers and sisters would be on my side in relation to the racial stock of the Greeks and Italians.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:


Yes, both teams are white and you would find it exceedingly difficult to find modern Greeks and Italians that don't consider themselves white. I'm of the opinion that you don't actually believe your laughably weak characterisation of Southern Europeans as anything but white. You're transparent, you know. You're just using this ridiculous line of argument in order to create the illusion of sensible and fair equivalence. It's an altogether insincere, empty rhetorical device meant only to disarm your opponents

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


Some of the chromosome buildup...

---

^ LOL

---

The simple reason why a back migration was suggested comes from a 2002 paper, here the proposed a phylogenetic inferences based on the lack of certain chromosomes in African populations. This was before DE etc. was found in Africa. Studies today as posted by you still use this old phylogenetic inferences path and totally skip the newer / later evidence.

quote:

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An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Sorry for derailing, Oshun. Do all threads around here eventually decay into an endless series of accusations of bias and pictures of Sahelian people?

---

quote:

---

Africa is the birthplace of modern humans, and is the source of the geographic expansion of ancestral populations into other regions of the world. Indigenous Africans are characterized by high levels of genetic diversity within and between populations. The pattern of genetic variation in these populations has been shaped by demographic events occurring over the last 200,000 years. The dramatic variation in climate, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent has also resulted in novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations in extant Africans. This review summarizes some recent advances in our understanding of the demographic history and selective pressures that have influenced levels and patterns of diversity in African populations.

---

quote:

---

According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"…

---

quote:

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Morphological variation of the skeletal remains of ancient Nubia has been traditionally explained as a product of multiple migrations into the Nile Valley. In contrast, various researchers have noted a continuity in craniofacial variation from Mesolithic through Neolithic times. This apparent continuity could be explained by in situ cultural evolution producing shifts in selective pressures which may act on teeth, the facial complex, and the cranial vault.

A series of 13 Mesolithic skulls from Wadi Halfa, Sudan, are compared to Nubian Neolithic remains by means of extended canonical analysis. Results support recent research which suggests consistent trends of facial reduction and cranial vault expansion from Mesolithic through Neolithic times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
There are no phenotypic traits exclusive to one population. So it doesn't really matter where such traits originated, but where they are predominant or show disparate frequencies. Narrow noses are very low frequency in West-Central African populations ("Negroids"), but extremely high frequency in European populations ("Caucasoids").

For example only 2.8% of Nigerians have narrow noses:

quote:

---

The commonest type of nasal variability is Type A (70.5%), Platyrrhine nose, Type B (26.7%) especially in females (mesorrhine) and Type C (leptorrhine) (2.8%).

---

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1808-86942011000500009

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"...

---

So even though Upper Egyptians and specific "Nubians" share a common origin firmly in Africa all throughout the predynastic period, only one group is 'black'? Are Lower "Nubians" 'black'?

To say that a Northeast African population with no origins in "Eurasia", sharing a common origin with other closely related 'black' populations in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, with predominantly mahogany-brown skin is apparently crazy, but to assert that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant (no evidence) is the paragon of sanity?

I provided pictures of 'black' people in Southern Egypt and they undoubtedly would have been considered "lunatics" in Jim-Crow America had they professed that they were not 'black'. No one can dispute that Upper Egyptians and "Nubians" stem from a common origin and that they were virtually identical in the predynastic period, so it's inconceivable that only one can be 'black'.

PS: Unlike you, Capra does not argue that the ancient Egyptians were a Levantine transplant - a "Hamitic" race from "Eurasia" that brought civilization to the Nile valley before the Neolithic.

---

Its 'inconceivable' to you because you're a proponent of a loon pan-African political theory- where all Africans have to be "black". Let's compare Europe. There's also a skin colour cline/gradient from north-to-south. Southern Europeans are not "white", but a faint light brown so-called olive complexion. I've never labelled or considered Southern Europeans "white". Unlike the Afrocentric nutjobs here, I don't follow some bizarre continental/pan political ideology.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
@Ish
almost 1000 mutations in sequence separates Basal R and DE, unless a haplogroup indicating K is found in DE carriers or absent in African R carriers, the former won't be representative of basal R, even if the polymorphisms are Identical.

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17], [18] than previously reported [1].

[…]


Figure 1. Revised topology of the deepest portion of the human MSY tree.
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ppreviews-plos-725668748/292707/preview.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
@Ish
almost 1000 mutations in sequence separates Basal R and DE, unless a haplogroup indicating K is found in DE carriers or absent in African R carriers, the former won't be representative of basal R, even if the polymorphisms are Identical.

---

I understand this method very well based on the 2002 phylogenetic inferences, but that is not how Fulvio Cruciani estimated the method in his later publications.

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

—Fulvio Cruciani et al.
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa (2011)

quote:

---

Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17], [18] than previously reported [1].

[…]


Figure 1. Revised topology of the deepest portion of the human MSY tree.
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ppreviews-plos-725668748/292707/preview.jpg

---

—Fulvio Cruciani et al
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree 2012

---

quote:

---

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049170

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Fulvio Cruciani 2012


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14], [31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1], [14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Yes, both teams are white and you would find it exceedingly difficult to find modern Greeks and Italians that don't consider themselves white. I'm of the opinion that you don't actually believe your laughably weak characterisation of Southern Europeans as anything but white. You're transparent, you know. You're just using this ridiculous line of argument in order to create the illusion of sensible and fair equivalence. It's an altogether insincere, empty rhetorical device meant only to disarm your opponents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
This was answered / debunked already, but typical as we know you will iterate on the same stands and point of view.

Your argument deals with sex based diversion (ethnicity). What you consider a low frequency in Nigeria is actually consistent with millions of since Nigeria has a population of 240 million.

---

quote:

---

Oh yeah, in my family we have different color contrasts from dark to very light vice versa. What should we do, follow your eurocentric ideology or just be who we are? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm pretty sure capra is anything but a euronut but say what you will on this one Ish

---

But as far as I am aware, Capra doesn't argue for your lunatic Afrocentric "black Egypt" theory. You slander anyone like him who doesn't believe in "black Egypt" as a "Eurocentrist" and/or "Nazi"...

---

Capra not agreeing with me doesn't make him a Nazi. You being a racist hood wearing wannabe faux-academic trying to reduce every speck of civilization in Africa to Hamites despite all evidence to the contrary absolutely makes you one. Good day, Nazi.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Stop the BS the revisions are to the positions of haplogroup A1b, A1a and haplogroup B and discovery of new haplgroups

quote:

---

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049170

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Fulvio Cruciani 2012


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14], [31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1], [14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

---

^^ This? THis does not mean haplogroup R originated in Africa



___________________________________

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Nope, they reevaluated the entire tree of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today, which gave R a different presence, positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT.


So I ask you again, how can it be that Seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present were also present in one DE sample? You haven't explained this? We know DE is African.


As we know things, the ancestral to CT is haplogroup BT and the descendants are haplogroup CF and DE.







All I talk about it what I notice they reported, if you call their report a BS revisions, so be it.



See, I also looked at your favorite source wikipedia. And this is what they show:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_BT

That tree of course is not found in any Cruciani et al. study. Since they show this:, but it is still a nice summery:





This is by your great friend, Razib Khan who is scared to touch the positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (deep in his heart he knows):

quote:

---

I don’t know the technical details of the calibration well here, last I checked the dates for Y chromosomal lineages were a total mess. So I’m not going to express confidence in this specific value, but, it does align well with a suspicion among many people that the idea of modern humans all tracing back to ancestors on the order of ~50,000 years B.P. just isn’t tenable any longer (this excludes the issue of possible admixture with other lineages such as Neandertals).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
This was answered / debunked already, but typical as we know you will iterate on the same stands and point of view.

Your argument deals with sex based diversion (ethnicity). What you consider a low frequency in Nigeria is actually consistent with millions of since Nigeria has a population of 240 million.

---

That study covered multiple ethnic groups in Nigeria (Igbo, Yoruba etc.), so its consistent across the whole country. Your estimate for the population size of Nigeria seems quite off- its more like 185 million, but let's say it is 200 to work easy with the percentages If there are 200 million Nigerians and 3% have narrow noses that totals only 6 million; the vast majority 194 million (97%) Nigerians lack this trait. That was my simple point about disparate (very low vs. very high) frequencies.

quote:

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Oh yeah, in my family we have different color contrasts from dark to very light vice versa. What should we do, follow your eurocentric ideology or just be who we are?

---

And what's your ancestry or ethnic group? If I'm not mistaken you posted once you are mixed race, so why is this a surprise? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
Read Guglielmo & Salerno's book, Are Italians White?. At one point, American immigration policy was based on favouring northern Europeans (English, Scandinavians, Dutch etc) i.e. southern Europeans like Italians were considered too swarthy skinned and inferior. Old American immigration policy was Anglocentric and/or Nordicist.

---

Northwest Europeans developed racially re-assuring theories on the ancient Greeks and their origins long before those policies; the most powerful Northwest Europeans (the Anglo-American Establishment) has never conceded that the ancient Greeks and Romans were racially distinct from themselves or that they had no connection or claim (s) to these civilizations.

They claimed that the ancient Greeks and Romans of the glorius Classical age were Nordic in appearance, like the Swedes and the Germans, and that a late period infusion of inferior Semitic and Negro blood debased this supposedly high-octane racial stock - explaining their slightly darker skin. Ancient Greece and Rome has never been relinquished by Northern Europeans.

---

quote:

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Substantial caste-like stratification, accompanied by relatively strict principles of caste endogamy separated the Indo-European-derived Eupatrids from the freemen and slave classes among whom the genetic influence of the autochthonous 'Pelasgian' population may have predominated.

---

quote:

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As Childe (1926), Palmer (1955) and others have suggested, the undivided proto-Indo-Europeans probably comprised a numerically small population.

---

quote:

---

Peterson (1974), studied portrait busts of famous ancient Greek personages, and concluded that the aristocracies of Hellas were a product of closely interbreeding, Eupatrid clans. These clans were mostly Nordic in type, being largely descended from the Indo-European invaders. The demos, or common people however, as well as most slaves, were of Mediterranean, Pelasgian descent.

---

quote:

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I do not personally believe that the Nordic racial element in ancient Greece was ever predominant, but I do think that it was concentrated in the elites.

---

Basically these Nordicists are/were arguing for caste-like stratification, where a numerically much smaller Indo-European speaking elite/warrior class with white skin, light eyes and fair hair invaded and ruled over the autochthonous swarthy skinned, brown eyed and dark haired "Pelasgian masses". This is obviously different to what you are stating, that Nordicists claim the ancient Greek population was white, when they only make this claim for the aristocracy, as little as 1% of the population.
 

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Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
This is looking at "race" from an antiquated perspective. Today modern "whites" include both Nords and southern Europeans. Please make a new thread to discuss whose white and the evolution of modern whiteness to encompass a singular Pan Euro racial identity. I made this thread to talk about where "Caucasoid" features originated.
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
There are too many Africans that look like those footballers above dipped in chocolate for me to entertain the idea that their ancestors left Africa went to Caucasia did a Caucasian dance failed because they have no rhythm then went back to Africa to breed with more of their ancestors to give them features they never had when they left.


 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

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most salient "Caucasoid" traits like narrow noses and small teeth?

---

 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Yes, both teams are white and you would find it exceedingly difficult to find modern Greeks and Italians that don't consider themselves white. I'm of the opinion that you don't actually believe your laughably weak characterisation of Southern Europeans as anything but white. You're transparent, you know. You're just using this ridiculous line of argument in order to create the illusion of sensible and fair equivalence. It's an altogether insincere, empty rhetorical device meant only to disarm your opponents.

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You're an idiot. Go read a classical text.

Why did Romans think they had to chalk (whiten) their faces to appear like the Gauls?

"Oh! yes,” said Giton, “and please circumcise us too, so that we look like Jews, and bore our ears to imitate Arabians, and chalk our faces till Gaul takes us for her own sons; as if this colour alone could alter our shapes, when it takes a number of points in unison to make a good lie." - Petronius, Satyricon, 102

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

The ancient Greeks were obviously aware that other Europeans had lighter skin but they never asserted that Northern Europeans belonged to a separate white race and they to another non-white race; they affirmed that the Northern Europeans were excessively white and even related this skin tone to that of their women.

Now, unless you want to assert that ancient Greek women were actually Germanic or Celtic, you really have nowhere to go on this matter. Modern Greeks and Italians consider themselves white and there is no evidence that they are not predominantly European on a genetic level. [/QB]

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Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group.

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Originally posted by Cass/:
The ancient Greeks & Romans recognised their northern geographical neighbours

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Originally posted by Cass/:

Do you mean the most salient "Caucasoid" traits like narrow noses and small teeth? Then no.

Just search around online for Pleistocene fossils from Africa, absolutely none have narrow nasal aperture...

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Au contraire!

From the Rightmire:

In addition to the Gamble’s Cave I1 assemblage, there are the broken parts of a complete individual found by H. Reck at Olduvai in 1913 and also the remains from the Naivasha Railway Site described by Leakey (’42). Both skeletons are associated with Kenya Capsian tools, and the famous “Oldoway Man” from Bed V may be contemporary with the Gamble’s Cave occupation, But neither find has proved particularly useful, though resemblances of both to the Gamble’s Cave people have been claimed; the Olduvai burial is badly crushed, while the Naivasha skull lacks fully half its face. So, of this earlier material, the Gamble’s Cave skeletons are the best preserved, and unfortunately even these reconstructions are far from perfect. Skull number 4 has been warped somewhat, and nearly all of the base as well as a substantial portion of the facial skeleton are present only in plaster. Distortion renders this specimen quite unfit for measurement. Number 5 also lacks much of the occiput, and the missing parts have been filled in with plaster. Proper alignment of the face is thus quite difficult, and apparently one half of the maxilla has been warped backward toward the foramen magnum. Surely some distortion of this sort has produced the curious vertical facial profile, and the nose is also suspect. On the whole, there is rather less deformation of the vault than with number 4, but measurements of either specimen would be unreliable. Although both skulls have been called non-Negro in morphology, the evidence is certainly far from clear cut; any pronouncement of this sort is questionable by virtue of the state of the material alone.

'New Studies of Post-Pleistocene Human Skeletal Remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya'
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330420304

Olduvai


Naivasha




As far as tooth size..



^ Even Somalis have slightly smaller teeth than Austrians/Swiss.
 

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