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Challenge to Afronuts claiming egypt was black
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by malcontent7: [qb] Don't play dumb with me boy. You see the pictures and the similarities. And for your information the term is still in use. And not without good reason people who live in close proximity to each other and share many Characteristics often will tend to have some biological relation. Think Arabs and HOAs.[/qb][/QUOTE]First off, I'm not a boy but a grown MAN. Second, I'm not playing dumb at all but on the contrary being [i]smart[/i]. For something to be scientifically valid, it must have a proper and objective definition. You constantly speak of "caucasians" as a scientific entity, therefore it must have a valid definition. What qualifies one to be "caucasian"?? You're right about people living in close proximity share close genetic affinities but last time I checked Saudi Arabia is not that close to Europe unless you expect us to believe those Euro-looking Saudis are representative of indigenous Arabians! [b]LOL[/b] [QUOTE][qb]What you trust in is Afrocentric nonsense from people like Keita.[/qb][/QUOTE]Non-sequitor. I don't know what Keita, a bio-anthropologist has anything to do with my response to your source on Egyptian [i]archaeology[/i]. In fact, I find it hilarious that you would cite of all things the biased Jewcentric source as Hebrewhistory.info on Egyptian archaeology when there is so much more accurate info from actual mainstream Egyptological sources! [b]LOL[/b] As for Keita, how is he Afrocentric? Is it because he exposes Eurocentric biases and turns them on their heads? You do realize that Keita is hailed by his [predominantly white] peers for his objectivity and refuting Eurocentric academic bias that has plagued his field. Even his white mentor Larry Angels supports his work. Don't attack Keita because his work debunks your fraudulent claims. :D [QUOTE][qb]"Keita is an afrorcentric fraud who distorts evidence; he misquoted Strouhal as saying that 80% of all predynastic Badarian hair was Negroid in origin: Strouhal (1971) also analyzed hair in his study of 117 Badari crania, in which he concluded that 80% were Negroid; most of these were interpreted as being hybrids. In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases. Not once in the original study by Strouhal does it ever indicate that 80% of the hair examined was Negroid in origin! nowhere in this passage does it ever say that 80% of Badarian hair was Negroid, as Keita falsely claimed! "[/qb][/QUOTE]What the hell are you talking about?! Since when did I mention Keita, let alone what said about Strouhal?? But if you insist on going there... I don't know what Keita said about Strouhal's findings, but here is some more interesting info on Badarian hair by Strouhal. [i]The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown: San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60 In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis: "[b]The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians).[/b]" The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence! In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations. A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50. The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table! Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers. Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle. We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening. Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect. This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out.[/i] Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia (2001) ^^ [b]LOL[/b] I guess the above is what Keita meant when Strouhal found Badarian hair to be 80% "negroid"; he was referring to the trichometric index!! That's one slap to your head!! [QUOTE][qb]"Actually, Egyptology has shown that all these traits were found earliest in the western Sahara FIRST before the Delta itself, let alone the Levant." Sources?[/qb][/QUOTE]Do you have A-D-D or something?! I just cited a source by Bruce Williams, an actual Egyptologist, who stated that the earliest known settlements in northern Egypt were barely in the delta but were located southwest of it, hence the earliest center of Lower Egyptian culture is the Faiyum A Culture! Even the Merimde culture your source spoke of was located in the [i]western[/i] Delta. Here are a couple more sources: “[i]The initial movements westwards across the Sahara and, almost a millennium later, are likely to have been caused by the succession of drought episodes at 7600, 6800-6500, 6100, 5800, and 5500-5400 cal BC (8.6, 7.9-7.7, 7.26, 7, 6.6-6.5 kyr bp)…[/i]”-- Fekri Hassan, [i]Droughts, Food, and Culture: Ecological Change and Food Security in Africa’s Prehistory[/i] "[i]..the early cultures of [b]Merimde[/b], the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life.[/i]" Shaw, Thurston (1976) [i]Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945[/i] The African nature of Merimde culture is confirmed by archaeologists like Barbara E. Barich, whose work in the Sahara has revealed Merimda’s affinities like cylindrical axes and concave arrowheads to be Libyan while other features like burial of dead right in settlements to be Capsian (Tunisia), while positioning of the dead bodies to be Adrar Bous (Algeria). The theory that Asiatics were present in the Delta was supposed based on Asian domesticates like plant and animals, but for the second time, these domesticates had fully Egyptian (African) names and the physical remains of the Delta people themselves are also African, as noted by Kemp in his remark on skeletal remains having [i]tropical[/i] adapted features! [QUOTE][qb][b] “and that prior to Merimda the African Mushabeans migrated into Palestine to give rise to the Natufians hence, the similarities nitwit!”[/b] Seem like there is a bit of a contradiction here. "[i]Pleistocene connections between Africa and SouthWest Asia: an archaeological perspective[/i]. “[i]The Mushabians moved into the Sinai from the Nile Delta, bring North African lithic chipping techniques.[/i]” “[i]Thus the population overflow from Northeast Africa played a definite role in the establishment of the Natufian adaptation, which in turn led to the emergence of agriculture as a new subsistence system.[/i]” By Dr. Ofer Bar-Yosef, 1987; The African Archaeological Review; Chapter 5, pg 29-38. Seems strange that the Palestinian population would be so different.[/qb][/QUOTE]Nothing strange about it if you understood that the Natufians as a minority stood out from the general population of the region! This is why Yosef and other scholars noted their distinguishing features. Obviously these people were absorbed into the greater Asiatic population since their African lineages like PN2 still survive today among the populace which obviously are not generally speaking African or black in appearance! [QUOTE][qb]Well now why would they be closer in resemblance to Asiatics if not from admixture?? What is there in Lower Egypt to cause a change in phenotpye? Asiatics have always been in the area boy![/qb][/QUOTE]By “closer” I meant in a [b]geographic sense[/b], you nitwit!! The actual change in phenotype to closer resembling Asiatics did not happen until late dynastic times! This was shown by past anthropologists who’ve shown Lower Egyptians differ in cranial features from Upper Egyptians only slightly such as higher cranial index and lower nasal index with such features being found in Sub-Sahara. They still differed more radically with Asiatics. Even experts like Sonia Zakrzewski show those Lower Egyptian skulls in Howells data that match closely to Asiatics come from late dynastic times when foreigners overran the Delta! I even cited Barry Kemp who acknowledged that in bodily proportions Delta Egyptians were still identical to southern Egyptians NOT with Asiatics! [QUOTE][qb]"[i]Sun-dried mud bricks, a building material characteristic of Lower Mesopotamia, were first employed in Upper Egypt during this period. The use of a distinctly Mesopotamian device, the cylinder seal was introduced and traces of writing appeared. Their images bore a marked resemblance to those of the Land of the Twin Rivers. The pear-shaped stone mace-heads found in an earlier context in the Deltic Asiatic communities such as Merimde, replications of Mesopotamian models, appear in the south in the Gerzean period. The use of metal tools was non-existent in Upper Egypt until the latter part of the Gerzean period. A few metal pins and ornaments first appear which may well have been trade goods. Toward the end of the period a few crude, locally made copper tools do appear. The Copper-Stone Age had finally arrived. During that same time period, the latter half of the fourth millennium before the Common Era, Mesopotamia had crossed into the Bronze Age. The peoples speaking related "Semitic" dialects were spreading out along the Fertile Crescent from the great cities along the crown of the Crescent. They moved south and east to absorb Sumer, situated strategically athwart the area where the Euphrates and the Tigris meld into the Arabian Gulf. Trade with the peoples of another great and early civilization in the Indus Valley of India reached significant proportions. Traders were likewise ranging westward and established karums, trading villages adjoining the cities of Anatolia. The flow of Asiatic traders down the Nile burgeoned. Along the way they paid tribute to the petty princes along the cliff-lined banks for the right of passage.[/i]" Well into dynastic times "[i]Meanwhile the second king of the Tenth Dynasty, Wahkare Achthoes III, managed to coexist with the Asiatics on the eastern Delta. Since Thebes was advancing in the south, with his ally Asyut he attacked them at This, capturing them "like a cloudburst;" but he regretted allowing his troops to plunder the sacred tombs. Later the Theban King Inyotef II came back and drove the Heracleopolitans out of the Thinite Nome. After this, peace lasted for several decades as Wahkare reigned nearly half a century. Sesostris I wasted no time in returning to strengthen his rule, and he extended his territory even farther south in Nubia, where gold was being mined for Egypt. Sesostris continued to mine and build, including towering granite obelisks at the Re-Atum temple at Heliopolis used during his Sed festival. At Karnak the god Amen-Re was honored with large structures. Sesostris himself was regarded as a god, and once again the power of the kings increased. He ruled for thirty-five years after his father's death and brought in his own son, Amenemhet II, as co-regent for his last two years. Amenemhet II and Sesostris II increased Egyptian prosperity by reclaiming land for agriculture in the Faiyum depression with surplus Nile water. More Asiatics immigrated into Egypt to work as servants, and trade was established as far away as Crete and Babylon.[/i] http://www.san.beck.org/EC4-Egypt.html Northern Egyptians were mixed![/qb][/QUOTE] :eek: Are you serious?! Your source is [URL=http://www.san.beck.org/#8]Sanderson Beck[/URL], a spiritualist from California??!! [b]LMAO[/b] :D No wonder the writings sounded suspect from the very start. For example, how was it “Mesopotamian” mudbrick suddenly appear in Upper Egypt first before Lower Egypt, despite the Egyptian mudbrick being of totally different material and style from that of Mesopotamia?? Yes, I see Mr. Beck is ‘liberal’ enough to identify the Egyptians as a mixed people but not the Greeks, even though we have more evidence of that in Greece! Oh boy, you are hilarious! [QUOTE][qb] “Can please cite from your source what exactly is 'Eurasian' about the autosomes??” Obviously they are identical to those found in Eurasia as opposed to Sub Saharan which they claimed increased in more recent times. Why don't you ask what is Exactly is sub-Saharan about them?[/qb][/QUOTE]I asked my question about BOTH, since previous studies claiming “Eurasian” genes end up debunk when such genes are found in high frequencies in North Africa as if North Africa is synonymous with Eurasia despite being part of Africa, meanwhile Sub-Saharan genes are segregated on its own even though “Sub-Sahara” is in the same continent as North Africa, namely AFRICA. For example HBS in the Mediterranean was once assumed to be of the Eurasian variety found in India, but analysis revealed it is of the Benin variety in so-called ‘Sub-Sahara’! That is why specifics are important so as to expose the okie-doke scam you and you ilk like to play. [QUOTE][qb]First of all N1a is not African but Near Eastern and has it's highest frequency in Arabia. Benin HBS orginates in West Africa. I wonder excatly what historical migration would account this ending up in Greece?? [/qb][/QUOTE]Your statement about N1a proves my point. It’s not even known where exactly mt N* originated either in East Africa during the first Out-Of-African expansion or slightly after in Arabia. Either way, N like M both derive from L3 which is certainly African. The fact that Arabia right next to Africa has the highest frequency of N1a along with East Africans having just as much diversity with upstream N1 hardly qualifies it as ‘Eurasian’. By the way, Benin HBS in Greece is dated to the Neolithic, around the same time as Y-chromosomal E-V13. [QUOTE][qb]About the study, I know that they found high frequencies of pre HV mtDNA which matched Syrian samples. These declined over time.[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes, HV being carried by the first European so-called Cro-Magnon who still possessed tropical adapted features, while pre-HV meant actual time of Out-Of-African expansion itself. No surprise there. [QUOTE][qb]A wig? All he needed was a boom box and he would fit into any US inner city in the 1970's[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes, well he IS black like all indigenous Egyptians who are African. Your silly observation aside. [QUOTE][qb]”Also it is a known fact that hair does not retain the same form after thousands of years post-mortem especially when affected by embalming chemicals like natron used in Egyptian mummification.” That's BS and you know it. "To the Afrocentrists who are spamming this entry with outraged comments along the line of ‘you don’t understand African diversity’, ‘Malcolm X had red hair’, ‘some Africans have Caucasian hair,’ and ‘you’ve never been to Africa’… The average black American is about 1/5 European, which explains why black Americans occasionally crop up with blue eyes and ginger hair (although Malcolm X only went reddish in summer, not a proper ginger). The same goes for Caucasian textured hair in Africans. The anthropologists who’ve studied the hair came to the conclusions of mostly Caucasian (Fletcher) to almost half negroid (Eugene Strouhal called it sterotypically mulatto) of the Southern oldest samples, the Badarians. Afrocentrists please note, those Strouhal and Keita studies do not include Northern Egyptians in any way. That Strouhal study is badly misquoted from in the Keita study of Badarian crania: he claimed Strouhal observed the hair to be 80% negroid, but the Strouhal study itself says no such thing, and makes it quite clear that the Southern Egyptians were of mixed ancestry. The Keita study this quote is from even states that the North Egyptian crania are different to the Southern, a fact often ignored once the words ’80% negroid’ are spotted. Also, try reading the other Keita work properly, it places Caucasians all over North Africa from the Oranian paleolithic onwards. Curiously, these hair studies match the current Egyptian population, nearly half negroid at the South, Caucasian to the North. Coincidence or what?"[/qb][/QUOTE]First off, Malcom X’s hair was [i]dyed[/i] red in a hairstyle known as the conch! This process not only dyed his hair red but [i]relaxed[/i] it, effectively damaging it in a painful process which he made known in his auto-biography. I just cited a source showing the alkaline effects of Egyptian embalming fluid, so enough said! [QUOTE][qb]“Besides, wavy hair and aquiline noses are not unusual for east Africans in Sub-Sahara and even some West Africans for that matter. So are you suggesting those are "caucasian traits" again??” You know it. ;) [/qb][/QUOTE]Yes. I know it is b.s.! [QUOTE][qb] “There are indigenous Indians with straight noses, green eyes, and still black skinned. What's your point??” Really? Post a picture of one. [/qb][/QUOTE]How about several. [IMG]http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000g45wcNQVJ4Q/t/200/I0000g45wcNQVJ4Q.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/154047667_60785c4a34.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/168826573_aa55cc7fc2.jpg[/IMG] ^ I guess these women are also “Caucasian” to you. There are Australian aborigines with blue eyes, so I guess they are “Caucasian” also! [b]LOL[/b] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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