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Berbers are primarily not African ?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ru2religious: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss: [qb] North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt. [/qb][/QUOTE]It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East). At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture). This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). [b]So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.[/b] The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. [b]Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa.[/b] Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago. Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data. [/qb][/QUOTE]I keep posting this quote every time the topic of Berbers popup. In American history and according to their documentation of the slaves it reads: [b]Chapter One [i]The Status of the Negro, his Rights and Disabilities[/i][/b] [b]SECTION 4[/b] The term Negro is confined to [b]slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants[/b]. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars. http://genealogytrails.com/scar/negro_law.htm There are a lot of debate about who the ancient Berbers were and are - but it appears that the ancient Berbers or great population of them may actually be in the Americas traded as slave (prisoners of war). What's amazing to me is that we do population genetics based on current population not taking into consideration the expulsion of people from their homelands. History: [b]Papal Bull Dum Diversas (18 June, 1452)[/b] [b][i]“We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors”.[/i][/b] I love the study of genetics but history (historical documentation) must be taken into total consideration as well. Many of the lands across the northern shores of Africa were seized by and subdued. Many of the populations were taken to West African and sold to the Americas. If you look back up to the Carolina negro slave law section for and read what was actually descree by the Papal Bull(s) - it basically reads the same as the decree given to the Portuguese empire. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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