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Ancient Egyptian DNA from 1300BC to 426 AD
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cass/: [qb] @ Oshun The DNA study coming out shows ancient Egyptians were autosomally close to Natufians and Neolithic Levantines. Also, the fact ancient Egyptians plot(probably) closer to modern Levantines than modern Egyptians in the principal-component-analysis, points to an old population affinity/structure like how 6-9th century AD English samples are closer to modern Norwegians and Scottish than modern English, despite the fact modern English are closest autosomally (i.e. in admixture and rare-allele analyses) to the 6-9th century AD English samples (as expected). Reality is the DNA will show a Levantine origin of ancient Egyptians. However, since archaeology does not support any recent mass movement(s) or large-scale mixture, the Levantine migration has to be pushed back pre-Holocene to Epipaleolithic and this ties in with Afro-Asiatic entering Egypt. [/qb][/QUOTE]And even if they did, it won't really settle things. Because the question would then be did were they there enough to respond to African ecological pressures to their physiology? Were they at any points within contact with people who had physiologically adapted? If yes, the debate continues. If not the DNA will probably end this conversation once southern Egyptian results are unveiled in larger numbers. Let's not pretend that for [b]both sides[/b], there's always been a return to this debate regardless of genetic data. [QUOTE][qb] That the formation of the Egyptian dynastic state c. 3100 BCE owes more to Upper Egypt, than Lower/Middle Egypt has really no relevance. Even if true, so what? Afrocentrists are only arguing for this to try to connect Egyptians to more southern populations in Africa; Nubia though isn't even Sub-Saharan Africa, its still the Sahara. [IMG]http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/Gall-Peters-Projection.jpg[/IMG] http://www.petersmap.com/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/18/africa/real-size-of-africa/ [/qb][/QUOTE]I'll humor this, if only long enough so that I can mention such a thing is a modern map. You are again being undone by internalized notions of an Africa that is incapable of change and especially monolithic below the Sahara. This was the "distance" from a Sahel climate when Egypt as a state first formed: [IMG]http://www.uni-mannheim.de/phygeo/5000%20BP.jpg[/IMG] Much of the Nile region was still sahel-savannah. Nearly all of northern Sudan was also pretty much of this climate as well. Just few hundreds of years before this would've been looked even more different and much of the cultural complex that founded the civilization would've been developing in northern Sudan well before things began going arid. But just for the sake of discussing modern Africans... Africa has [b]several[/b] ecological constructs [b]not two[/b]. why does specifically having physical adaptations to a desert mean someone has to be separated from the rest of Africa? Is the claim that the desert ecosystems in Africa are not unique to those in the Middle East? If so this will certainly be another point of debate. I ask because someone living in the modern Sahel or tropical Africa are considered just as African as each other despite the distinctiveness of their ecosystems. They [b]both[/b] are considered just as African as someone living in south Africa. It's not a "political" thing to call all these people Africans, it just is. Why is the distance relevant for Egypt to the Sahel but not for the Sahel to the south African coast? Discussing the Sahara among modern people like this is arbitrarily picking and choosing which climates and ecosystems (Africa has several) are or cannot be "African." This does not consider whether or not people have simply adapted to African ecosystems. [QUOTE]If you look at the cranial metric/non-metric & dental data, you will see there are no close ties of Sub-Saharan Africans to Nubians. This is the result of the size of Africa. Look at distance between Egyptians/Nubians and SSA's.[/QUOTE]I'll ignore the use of "SSA" because of the fact that "SSA" includes different regions along large distances (hypocritical) with different ecosystems. Saharan vs. SSA reduces Africa's several ecosystems to 2 (which is stupid). I mean yea ppl put up with it, but where we're going in this particular segment of conversation not highlighting this once more would probably be a bit unwise. Both sides are going to continue debating and offering arguments to establish a hierarchy of what physiological data proves adaptation. Certain researchers (and amateurs) seemed especially ahead of the game by focusing on their discussions on "body plans." I don't claim to know much about this subject matter. What I'm doing is predicting the general direction I suspect this sh!t will all go eventually--as it has done before. I'm predicting the parameters from which both sides will have to prove in order to be "done" so to speak. Predictions: -investigations and continued debate on proving significant biological adaptation (among ancient southern Egyptians and northen Sudan) to Africa happened. This will likely occur regardless of potential admixture events and will stress that biological adaption to an ecosystem makes a group of people essential products of that environment even with admixture present in some part of their history. This will be versed against a model that stresses the Asiatic biological affinity and adaption. That or it will be versed in a model that stresses Asiatic genetic proximity (should southern Egypt be exactly the same as northern Egypt) -investigations as to whether the African desert ecosystems are in any way unique/distinct from those in the Middle East [/QB][/QUOTE]
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