posted 11 February 2005 09:38 AM            

quote:

---

where is your people you are meant to be writing too. what have they said and how have they come to their conclusion?

---

Horemheb used to get his history from the Discovery Channel, but he got angry with them for portraying Egypt as African, and resorted to pathological lying. He was then called out for being a liar by one of the Discovery channel filmmakers (to which he has no rebuttal) and has been throwing temper-tantrums ever since.

Baby Horemheb needs to take a nap.

posted 11 February 2005 09:41 AM            

Baby Horemheb needs to take a nap".

lmfao

the guys a joke and he teaches, i feel sorry for his students.

posted 11 February 2005 12:57 PM            

To the Eurocentrists:

The Church Fathers St. Jerome and Sophronius, writing in the late fourth century, referred to Colchis as the `second Ethiopia' because of its black population. - Richard Poe, Black spark/White fire.

posted 11 February 2005 01:24 PM            

quote:

---

guess Malcolm X did not teach you that.

---

You guess about the Autobiography of Malcolm X.

You guess about Herodotus The Histories.

You guess about the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.

You guess because - you haven't read any of them.

You guess wrong.

You get your remedial education from The Discovery Channel and even then.... you still 'guess' wrong.

The Discovery Channel weighs in:

quote:

---

Horemheb once again I say, you are a lier and a bad one at that.

---

Next on Discovery Channel: We make baby Horemheb cry!

Now, go do your homework Professor, you can't afford to flunk another class. We want answers. No more 'guessing'.

posted 11 February 2005 01:52 PM            

quote:

---

here we have rasol...the black man who owes everything he has to white europeans.

---

quote:

---

rasol is so pleased with this that he still speaks their language and at least makes an attempt to read their books.

---

Millions of Africans are fluent in several languages Horemheb. We took it upon ourselves to learn often with limited resource other than 'own initiative'.

And you?

You are merely profanely illiterate and largely incoherent in a single language, in which you can barely grunt a complete sentence without screwing it up.

Much work need be done to prepare you for civil discourse, but before you can begin your education in earnest, you really should go here: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/

And let us know when you're feeling 'better'.

posted 11 February 2005 02:03 PM            

quote:

---

But rasol you are speaking ours, why?

---

You say it's 'yours' but you can't speak it.

Why?

Stupidity?

posted 11 February 2005 02:16 PM            

If you can't speak it, what does it mean to claim it as 'yours'?

Perhaps the question is too complicated for you?

posted 11 February 2005 02:28 PM            

You claim a scholarship (Herodotus) which you haven’t read.

You ask why I am speaking ‘your’ language.

The answer is I’m not, because you don’t have a language.

You only have whiskey bottle.

posted 11 February 2005 02:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[B]
Actually I'm more pleased with you for entertaining us as usual with yet another stupefying display of Ugly American ignorance.

---

posted 11 February 2005 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
HERU...now we are going to play the old racist card? Just another cop out.

---

posted 11 February 2005 04:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
here we have rasol...the black man who owes everything he has to white europeans. The people who came to africa, built, schools, roads, taught his ancestors how to write, put in telephone lines and hospitals. These same euro-americans gave rasol at least the opportunity for a basic education. rasol is so pleased with this that he still speaks their language and at least makes an attempt to read their books.
These same Euro-americans made it possible for rasol to take the bone out of his nose and put on some clothes.

---

Horemheb, is your former occupation Grand Dragon of your local KKK chapter, there in Texas?

posted 11 February 2005 05:04 PM            

Why not? That is what a large majority of afrocentrists use to verify claims of "African Black" Egyptians. Visual comments of paintings.

Also, it is very obvious that person was not some "discovery" film-maker. We're not the white house here, so let us cease the propaganda. Film-makers don't misspell "liar".

By simple logical induction, it could be very asserted that Egypt started out as what we would describe today as "Black Africans", but by the 8th Dynasty - according to Sinhue, the Lower Delta man was very different from the Upper Egyptian man.

It can be hence concluded that Egypt became fairly mixed early on in it's history, and that all manner of skintones came together and became Egyptian.

As the years passed, the achievements of the Egyptians continued, such as the "Golden Age" of the New Kingdom, and the Middle Kingdom. These achievements were the work of "Egyptians", who were neither strictly white, nor black, not brown, nor of any other "distinct" colour.

posted 11 February 2005 05:29 PM            

However, if you believe he is not on the level, then shouldn't you challenge him directly, rather than insinuate(?) - seems less than honorable.

On the mummies: The point is that there are forensic methods available for examining them. You don't simply 'look' at a 3000 year old cadaver and make hair-brained (literally) pronouncements on its ethnicity, as baby Horemheb is prone to do. A little common sense goes a long way.

posted 11 February 2005 05:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nerhesi:
Do you suffer from ADD or something? You inability to stay on topic is pitiable. At any rate mummy hair cannot be classified 'racially' by looking at. Your arguments are stupid.
---------

By simple logical induction, it could be very asserted that Egypt started out as what we would describe today as "Black Africans", but by the 8th Dynasty - according to Sinhue, the Lower Delta man was very different from the Upper Egyptian man.

It can be hence concluded that Egypt became fairly mixed early on in it's history, and that all manner of skintones came together and became Egyptian.

Sam W.

---

The statements above are exactly what the majority of people, on this board have been painstakingly trying to emphasize all this time.

I personally believe that Ancient Km.t started out as a Black African civilization, and over time, became more mixed because of foreign influx into the country!

All the scientific evidence thus far alludes to this conclusion!

P. S. Although the exact period of infusion into the country, is still debatable I think!

posted 11 February 2005 11:04 PM            

For attacks on African Americans to work they have to be factually correct.

But preamble first: I hate ad hominems but you seem to relish indulging in such.

So here goes: where did the barbarian Vandals(from which we get vandalism)of the forests of Germany get their language from?

Where did the barbarian and savage(according to the Greeks and Romans) German Huns and Goths get their language and culture from?

When did the barbarian ancestors of the Germans start reading and writing?

Why did the Romans refer to the pre-German peoples as savage tribes who fornicate incestuosly(see Tacitus, Roman historian)?

Why didn't the Vandals, Goths, et al. not invent language, mathematics, science on their own and not depend on others to acquire the trappings of civilisation?

Re: Africa

There was weaving of clothing in Africa before it appeared in Europe and a fortiori among the pre-Germans.

There were schools and writing instruction over large sections of Africa before the invasions from Europe.
Examples would be schools in places like Timbuktu, Gao, Kano, Katsina, Addis Ababa, Khartoum, Silwa(Swahili Coast), Cairo, Mogadishu, etc.

African Americans use English today in much the same way that Jews used the langauges of the countries in which they found themselves. Recall that Hebrew was revitalised as the langauge of Israel only very recently.

If African Americans so choose they could easily learn Hausa, Wolof, Pular Yoruba--in fact any number of West African languages African and express the very same thoughts expressed on the boards.

If African Americans so choose they
could easily choose to wear only West African clothing--as many do when they travel to Africa.

Before the invasions from Europe West Africans grew crops and had domestic animals on their farms(see Hopkins: The Political Economy of West Africa). The ad hominem about "spearing pigs" is purely gratuitous and easily dismissed on factual grounds.

It should be understood that whatever cultural accoutrements that Europeans enjoy today derive ultimately from African ideas--whether reading, writing, healing, architecture, engineering, clothing mathematics, manufacturing, etc.

posted 12 February 2005 05:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Once again, EuroDisney is demonstrating that he only sees West Africans as Negoid. His quote states, "numerous mummies with hair still attached to the skulls showing more straight, wavy, or lightly curled hair types than 'woolly'", and this does not prove that the Egyptians were Caucasoid. We have gone through this before, and now this hybrid brings up this crap. East Africans have straight, wavy hair or slighly curly hair, and since the Ancient Egyptians belong to the same stock, this is the case. When my hair is short it is more straight in hair texture, and I am not Caucasian. It may be true that West Africans have 'excessively' curly hair, but Ancient Egyptians were like the East or Sudanic Black Africans.

If this guy continue to stick with his West African = Negroid view then we have to start considering blue eyed, blonde hair whites as the only Caucasians.

---

posted 12 February 2005 07:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Actually the phrase the Ancient Greeks used to describe Egyptians and Ethiopians was melanchroes which means 'black'. The term melas is used throughout ancient Greek text and is translated as black.

---

The meaning of melas and melanochroes:

In their efforts to paint the ancient Egyptians "black," Afrocentrists rely heavily on misreadings of ancient Greek and Roman literature -- many of which stem from a severe misunderstanding of the historical use of color terms. In many ages and many cultures, descriptions of human complexion as "white," "brown" or "black" would correspond in modern usage to "fair," "tan" or "swarthy." According to the anthropologist Peter Frost (*):

"This older, more relative sense has been noted in other culture areas. The Japanese once used the terms shiroi (white) and kuroi (black) to describe their skin and its gradations of color. The Ibos of Nigeria employed ocha (white) and ojii (black) in the same way, so that nwoko ocha (white man) simply meant an Ibo with a lighter complexion. In French Canada, the older generation still refers to a swarthy Canadien as noir. Vestiges of this older usage persist in family names. Mr. White, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Black were individuals within the normal color spectrum of English people. Ditto for Leblanc, Lebrun, and Lenoir among the French or Weiss and Schwartz among the Germans."

In the same vein, the Greek words melas and leukos when applied to skin color were usually equivalent to "swarthy" and "fair" rather than the racial terms "black" or "white" as Afrocentrists would prefer (see definition of melas in the online LSJ lexicon). There are numerous examples of this usage in Greek literature -- one unequivocal example describes an aged Odysseus magically regaining his youth (Homer Odyssey 16.172-176):

"With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroięs], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin."

In describing the skin tone of Odysseus, Homer used the word melanchroięs -- a form of the same word that other Greeks sometimes chose to describe Egyptians, and one that is the source of much Afrocentric misunderstanding. If taken literally, the word would mean "black-skinned"; however, it is clear from the context that Homer means "of swarthy complexion" rather than racially "black," and intends to describe Odysseus regaining his youthful color. Otherwise we would have to assume that during the process of rejuvenation Odysseus transformed into a black African! This despite the numerous ancient artistic portrayals of Odysseus as Greek-looking and certainly not "black" in any modern racial sense.

Likewise, when the ancient writers described Egyptians as melas or melanchroes, they almost surely meant "dark-complected" rather than literally "black." Any ambiguity in such descriptions can be resolved by noting that other classical writers such as Manilius specifically identified the Egyptians as medium in complexion rather than "black," and that the Egyptians portrayed themselves as lighter and finer-featured than their African neighbors to the south.

quote:

---

On the mummies: The point is that there are forensic methods available for examining them. You don't simply 'look' at a 3000 year old cadaver and make hair-brained (literally) pronouncements on its ethnicity, as baby Horemheb is prone to do. A little common sense goes a long way.

---

Hair:

Numerous mummies with hair still attached to the skulls show that straight, wavy, or lightly curled hair types were common in ancient Egypt. For example, in a study (Titlbachova and Titlbach, 1977) involving detailed microscopic investigation of hair samples taken from several ancient Egyptian mummies, most were determined to have been naturally straight, wavy, or gently curled, with a roundish cross-section typical of modern Eurasian and North African peoples. Only a minority showed evidence of structural characteristics traditionally called "Negroid"; even in these the "Negroid" elements were weakly manifested.

posted 12 February 2005 08:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Actually the phrase the Ancient Greeks used to describe Egyptians and Ethiopians was melanchroes which means 'black'. The term melas is used throughout ancient Greek text and is translated as black.

---

The meaning of melas and melanochroes:

quote:

---

In their efforts to paint the ancient Egyptians "black," Afrocentrists rely heavily on misreadings of ancient Greek and Roman literature --

---

- The innumerable European scholars who have translated Herodotus histories' reference to Black Skinned woolly haired Egyptians for the better part of 1000 years?

- The politically correct dissembling of modern Eurocentrists attempt to convince themselves that Herodotus didn't mean what he said? Good luck with that.......

St Maurice.

posted 12 February 2005 08:31 AM            

quote:

---

Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples"
She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair,

---

rasol wrote:

quote:

---

Actually Fletcher has stated that she doesn't like to use term's like caucasian or negro. She doesn't use those terms at all in her current book on Nefertiti - although she does describe Nefertiti as wearing her hair in a "Nubian" style.

cynotrichous, from,
cyno -> dog and
trich -> hair
cynotrichous -> dog's hair, meaning hair that is wavy to straight in texture like a dog's and contrasted with hair that is wooly in texture (lamb's hair).

The best method for associating hair texture with ethnicity is based on the thickness of the cross section of the hair shaft, and not it's degree of curl or it's color, which for reasons already attested can be misleading. AE hair was generally thick and africoid and not of the thin eurasian variety.

Ethnic Group Hair thickness index
Badarian, pre-dynastic Egyptian 50.0
San, Southern African 55.O0
Zulu, Southern African 55.O0
Sub-Saharan Africa (ave?) 60.O0
Ancient Egypt (ave?) 60.02
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60

worth noting:

* Ancient Egyptian hair is African and provably distinct from European hair.

* notice that some Blacks Asian groups have thin hair much like Europeans, and some Black South Indians have even thinner hair than Europeans.

* for people who like to play games with cluster groups -> notice that European hair and hair texture clusters IN-BETWEEN East Asian and African.

* in terms of texture and thickness the extremes of hair are actually found in khoisanoid and diminuative type (thick and peppercorn) hair; and straight and thin east asian hair at the other extreme.

* even African wooly (afro) hair is in between peppercorn and curly.

* europeans have highly heterogenious hair types...curly bordering on afro, wavy and straight. black, brown, red, blonde (yellow) and blonde (white); attempts to assign these diverse types to the 'caucasian' hair group is just another attempt to disguise the reality of heterogeniety among Europeans.

* the only hair type that is endemic to europe is predominent blondism.

* by virtue of paleness of skin color, eye color and hair color, and recessive genes associated with this, you could arguably define 'nordic types' as a separate race from the rest of Europeans and the rest of the world. it is important to understand why, [wst] anthropologists never attempt to do this, instead sometimes clinging to their 'caucasoid' umbrella which is designed precisely to sweep these facts under the rug.

---

posted 12 February 2005 10:43 AM            

So how then would you translate the following from Roman author Ammanius Marcellinus?

"Aegypti plerique subfusculi et atrati sunt" My translation is: "Most Egyptians are very dark and blackish in colour". Do you have an alternative literal translation?

And what about these observations from Aristotle:

From Aristotle's PROBLEMATA(Physiognomica)(chapter 6, 812a):

"Too black a hue marks a coward, as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians[Nubians?], and so does too white a complexion, as you may see from women. So the hue that makes for courage must be intermediate between these extremes. A tawny colour indicates a bold spirit, as in lions: but too ruddy a hue marks a rogue, as in the case of the fox...."

And from Book 14, PROBLEMATA(Physignomica),paragraph 4.

"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair too supports this theory;for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair"

But note that when discussing skin colour and hair Aristotle could easily have made his point without reference to the Egyptians as he does in this passage: (PROBLEMATA, Physiognomica, 812b)

"...when the hair of the head stands up stiff it signifes cowardice, by congruity for fright....and very woolly hair also signifies cowardice, as may be seen in Ethiopians[Nubians?]. Thus extremely bristly and extremly woolly hair alike signify cowardice, and so hair gently curling at the end will make for boldness of spirit, as is to be seen in lions....[/i"

So quite clearly for the Greeks the people with the darkest complexions and woolliest of hair were the blacks of Africa--whether Egyptian or Nubian. In other words the extremes of skin colour and hair curl were to be found exclusively with the indigenous people of Egypt and Nubia. Simple logic!

posted 12 February 2005 05:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by multisphinx:
Who are u? You’re just a fat old white man. I am tired of white professors who teach African history at universities. Stick to ur white messed up history. You are a racist white european who has no say what he thinks about AE or modern Egyptian, same with u evileuro(fits u exactly. Look at the way u talk about African Americans, ur racist. First of all the true american are the native americans, white ppl are like the rest of the immigrants who came to the americas. Its funny when white americans think their true americans and the rest whom are colored are all foreigners.
Your have not facts just ur imagination, from when u were watching Disney cartoons.

---

Thought Writes:

Multispinx, I agree with the underlying feeling you have toward these clowns. But lets not ascribe race to their positions. Not ALL whites think the way they do. A jerk is an individual representation of ONLY theirself.

posted 12 February 2005 05:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Evil Euro

So how then would you translate the following from Roman author Ammanius Marcellinus?

"Aegypti plerique [b]subfusculi et atrati sunt" My translation is: "Most Egyptians are very dark and blackish in colour". Do you have an alternative literal translation?

And what about these observations from Aristotle:

From Aristotle's PROBLEMATA(Physiognomica)(chapter 6, 812a):

"Too black a hue marks a coward, as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians[Nubians?], and so does too white a complexion, as you may see from women. So the hue that makes for courage must be intermediate between these extremes. A tawny colour indicates a bold spirit, as in lions: but too ruddy a hue marks a rogue, as in the case of the fox...."

And from Book 14, PROBLEMATA(Physignomica),paragraph 4.

"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair too supports this theory;for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair"

But note that when discussing skin colour and hair Aristotle could easily have made his point without reference to the Egyptians as he does in this passage: (PROBLEMATA, Physiognomica, 812b)

"...when the hair of the head stands up stiff it signifes cowardice, by congruity for fright....and very woolly hair also signifies cowardice, as may be seen in Ethiopians[Nubians?]. Thus extremely bristly and extremly woolly hair alike signify cowardice, and so hair gently curling at the end will make for boldness of spirit, as is to be seen in lions....[/i"

So quite clearly for the Greeks the people with the darkest complexions and woolliest of hair were the blacks of Africa--whether Egyptian or Nubian. In other words the extremes of skin colour and hair curl were to be found exclusively with the indigenous people of Egypt and Nubia. Simple logic!

It would seem to me then that the most accurate description of the Egyptians and Nubians would be how the Egyptians and Nubians portrayed themselves when they did so [i]realistically as during the Amarna period and how those who actually saw them described them. That would be the Greeks and Romans.[/B]

---

Great Post!
See how helpful our little Nazi friends are in forcing us to bring forth these excellent facts...

posted 12 February 2005 06:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Multispinx, I agree with the underlying feeling you have toward these clowns. But lets not ascribe race to their positions. Not ALL whites think the way they do. A jerk is an individual representation of ONLY theirself.

---

i am sorry if i offended you thought, i have nothing against white ppl whom are not racist. I just have somthin against those whom are racist, even the ones whom live in alex, or ciaro. Its arrogance really that they have. I dont really believe in race, just somthin that developed socially and which gave birth to racism. As a muslim, i don't i see differance from the skin color of a person. But when i see arogance from a person it just makes me mad.

Just to let u know thier is Still racism in the States, In the south they are still integrating schools. Racism, is somthin that is still somthin that has not been erased from the hearts of all. Think about it if u grew up looking down to someone a different skin color, u think u will grow out atomatically erasing that view. One more thing ppl like evil and whore are the type of ppl who would hide their racism in public so if where to talk to them face to face their tone of speech is differant. But when they get the chance like on the internet no one know who they, they let it all out.

posted 12 February 2005 08:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Evil Euro

So how then would you translate the following from Roman author Ammanius Marcellinus?

"Aegypti plerique [b]subfusculi et atrati sunt" My translation is: "Most Egyptians are very dark and blackish in colour". Do you have an alternative literal translation?

And what about these observations from Aristotle:

From Aristotle's PROBLEMATA(Physiognomica)(chapter 6, 812a):

"Too black a hue marks a coward, as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians[Nubians?], and so does too white a complexion, as you may see from women. So the hue that makes for courage must be intermediate between these extremes. A tawny colour indicates a bold spirit, as in lions: but too ruddy a hue marks a rogue, as in the case of the fox...."

And from Book 14, PROBLEMATA(Physignomica),paragraph 4.

"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair too supports this theory;for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair"

But note that when discussing skin colour and hair Aristotle could easily have made his point without reference to the Egyptians as he does in this passage: (PROBLEMATA, Physiognomica, 812b)

"...when the hair of the head stands up stiff it signifes cowardice, by congruity for fright....and very woolly hair also signifies cowardice, as may be seen in Ethiopians[Nubians?]. Thus extremely bristly and extremly woolly hair alike signify cowardice, and so hair gently curling at the end will make for boldness of spirit, as is to be seen in lions....[/i"

So quite clearly for the Greeks the people with the darkest complexions and woolliest of hair were the blacks of Africa--whether Egyptian or Nubian. In other words the extremes of skin colour and hair curl were to be found exclusively with the indigenous people of Egypt and Nubia. Simple logic!

It would seem to me then that the most accurate description of the Egyptians and Nubians would be how the Egyptians and Nubians portrayed themselves when they did so [i]realistically as during the Amarna period and how those who actually saw them described them. That would be the Greeks and Romans.[/B]

---

I agree,AND nubian art was idealized to a certain extent but in the napatan period they portrayed themselves on average even more realistically,and more so during the meroitic and later periods.

egyptian art on average was more idealized,but folks who are not blind see many black faces in egyptian art.

posted 12 February 2005 10:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Great Post!
See how helpful our little Nazi friends are in forcing us to bring forth these excellent facts...

---

posted 13 February 2005 07:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Whose misunderstanding would that be? Do tell?

---

Yours. Melanochroes was used by Homer to describe Odysseus when he regained his youthful color. Obviously, it didn't mean "Black African". It meant "swarthy white".

quote:

---

moreover this has been debunked prior on Egyptsearch.com

---

posted 13 February 2005 08:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Whose misunderstanding would that be? Do tell?

---

quote:

---

Yours.

---

But Audrey De Selincourt, http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0140446389/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-1951504-6184655#reader-li nk

George Rawlinson http://gymnasiax.com/texts/herodotus/herodotus02.html
and many other classical scholars can and do..... , My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair - Herodotus as translated by Rawlinson; whining to us about it won't change a thing.

quote:

---

Melanochroes was used by Homer to describe Odysseus when he regained his youthful color. Obviously, it didn't mean "Black African". .

---

Herodotus WAS referencing Egyptians, Ethiopians and Colchis, and is translated accordingly.

You must deal with his quote directly, and specifically; your attempt to deflect attention by pointing to other uses of the world 'black' in ancient Greek is non-sequitor and ineffective.

Gk. melas (gen. melanos) "black" http://www.etymonline.com

posted 13 February 2005 09:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Evil Euro

So how then would you translate the following from Roman author Ammanius Marcellinus?

"Aegypti plerique [b]subfusculi et atrati sunt" My translation is: "Most Egyptians are very dark and blackish in colour". Do you have an alternative literal translation?

And what about these observations from Aristotle:

From Aristotle's PROBLEMATA(Physiognomica)(chapter 6, 812a):

"Too black a hue marks a coward, as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians[Nubians?], and so does too white a complexion, as you may see from women. So the hue that makes for courage must be intermediate between these extremes. A tawny colour indicates a bold spirit, as in lions: but too ruddy a hue marks a rogue, as in the case of the fox...."

And from Book 14, PROBLEMATA(Physignomica),paragraph 4.

"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair too supports this theory;for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair"

But note that when discussing skin colour and hair Aristotle could easily have made his point without reference to the Egyptians as he does in this passage: (PROBLEMATA, Physiognomica, 812b)

"...when the hair of the head stands up stiff it signifes cowardice, by congruity for fright....and very woolly hair also signifies cowardice, as may be seen in Ethiopians[Nubians?]. Thus extremely bristly and extremly woolly hair alike signify cowardice, and so hair gently curling at the end will make for boldness of spirit, as is to be seen in lions....[/i"

So quite clearly for the Greeks the people with the darkest complexions and woolliest of hair were the blacks of Africa--whether Egyptian or Nubian. In other words the extremes of skin colour and hair curl were to be found exclusively with the indigenous people of Egypt and Nubia. Simple logic!

It would seem to me then that the most accurate description of the Egyptians and Nubians would be how the Egyptians and Nubians portrayed themselves when they did so [i]realistically as during the Amarna period and how those who actually saw them described them. That would be the Greeks and Romans.[/B]

---

quote:

---

Wally writes: Great Post!
See how helpful our little Nazi friends are in forcing us to bring forth these excellent facts...

---

....to which they have no answers.

posted 13 February 2005 11:33 AM            

Notice how Lamin's questions and references had been avoided. The same goes for Thoughts questions on Evil Euro's understanding of a non-defunct scientific use of "caucasoid" and "negroid" terms, as well as a detailed chronology of "caucasoid" and "negroid" presence in East Africa, not to mention my simple questions on his feelings (since it's not from logical standpoint) that E3a and E3b aren't related, and that these DNA for some reason don't originate in Africa.

posted 13 February 2005 12:01 PM            

Although NAZI types sometimes are the focus of our conversations they don't represent for Europeans or whites in general. Most of whom have a somewhat more grown up view of things.

Here is another example:

Tracking our black mother through Spain
By Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum, PhD

Although my spiritual home is Sicily and Italy, I have recently been drawn to Spain. When, a few months ago, Mara Keller asked me where I wanted to lead another CIIS study tour, I did not say "Sicily," where I had previously led successful tours in 2000 and 2001. Spontaneously, and unexpectedly, I said, "Spain." Wally and I went to Spain on our first trip to Europe in 1959, again in 1970 and then in 1998. Somewhere in that preconscious place in our bodies that produces spontaneous statements, my desire to go to Spain again emerged.

Trying to figure out why. I think the desire has something to do with Spain as one of the invading cultures of Sicily that left an indelible imprint. The spanish were in Sicily from the 15th to the 18th centuries; whose meaning, for me &endash; immediate, and negative &endash; evoked the spanish inquisition, (as well as other, more recent, attempts elsewhere to control people's beliefs). Thinking about it some more, I realized that Spain is important in my life work tracking african origins. Spain is on the first migration paths of primordial africans who, after 50,000 BCE, brought signs of the dark mother to all continents. Semitic canaanites (phoenicians) in the century and a half before Jesus brough Tanit of Cathage (africa). Today in Spain the dark african mother is glimpsed in signs (primarily the prehistoric pubic V and the color ochre red) of moorish and jewish cultures in Spain that prohibited graven images, as well as in many christian black madonnas.

Like Italy (and the rest of Europe), Spain is a country that today combines ancient memories and progressive politics &endash; notably in its women's and students' movements. On a deeper level, Spain, for me, makes me wonder about the word Andalucia which refers to the Anu of primordial Africa as well as to my own first name, Lucia. Spain also brings to my mind Santa Teresa, that jewish conversa nun whom my middle name recalls. A continuing conundrum for me, Teresa, who combined mysticism, activism in the world and a superb writing style, provokes me to wonder what she was really doing.

World implications of Spain also draw me &endash; an enormous number of the world's peoples speak spanish. Culturally, Spain offers a case of the continuum between the african dark mother, dark women divinities of the world, and their contemporary significance. For our troubled world today, Spain offers an example in history when african muslims (or moors), large jewish communities, and christians lived together harmoniously, and creatively, for several centuries &endash; before church and state in Spain started warring on moors, persecuting jews, and burning christian heretics. Along with Portugal, Spain initiated modern world exploration, and the "discovery" of America. The rise of Spain as a modern nation state in alliance with the christian church made possible the voyage of that genoese adventurer, Christopher Columbus, who is buried in Seville in a moorish mosque inside of which christians built a church.

Our June/July 2002 trip to Spain started in the north, in the basque region, whose inhabitants' blood type (Rh negative, which I share) indicates that they were untouched by indo-european (aryan) invaders in the four milennia before the common epoch. Implications of this undiluted legacy from prehistory may be seen in the brilliant art that has come out of the basque region &endash; art seen in its prehistoric setting in the caves of Altamira, in the brilliance of 20th century art of Picasso, Miro, Gaudi, Salvador Dali et. sl., and recently in the Guggenheim Museum for contemporary art built by basques at Bilbao. Political implications of the memory of the harmony of prehistory are suggested at Mondragon, world showplace of successful democratic socialism. These influences are not unrelated to the persistence of the memory of the dark african mother, evident here in the Barcelona museum that contains the world's largest collection of images of black madonnas.

When we arrived on June 21, Rotarians had taken over Barcelona so we sojourned at Girona, another catalan town, where, serendipitously, we caught the June 24 celebration of prehistory (whose christian cover is the feast of St. John the Baptist, precursor of Jesus). At Girona, the celebration took place at Placa V with jazz, displays of prehistoric musical instruments (notably the flute), folk dancing and political literature of democratic communalism. The political legacy of prehistory to the contemporary world is suggested in basque and catalan regions of Spain: not representative democracy, but direct consensual democracy, wherein nobody is left out, everyone makes decisions in communal groups. Not vanquished until the formation of the spanish state in the 15th century, today basques search for independence is a burning issue that produces violent terrorists, and more nonviolent activists.

Next we went to Zaragoza, Spain's holiest city, and major marian site, founded in 25,000 BCE. Here the black madonna, Pilar, stands on a dolmen (evidence for my hypothesis that dolmens are associated with african migrations). Pilar was remembered by Hemingway in For Whom the Bell Tolls. Thousands of pilgrims come to Pilar, whose backdrop is flowers everywhere, mountains that are perfect ochre red pyramids, and a graceful bridge held up by one span of triangular cords.

Then to Altamira whose 18,500 &endash; 14,000 BCE cave paintings of ochre red bulls suggest that prehistoric art has never been surpassed. The prehistoric painters who painted bulls in three dimensions, by adapting the contours of the cave to the bodies of the bulls, also had a sense of humor. I was taken by the prehistoric painter who reached the edge of the cave ceiling before he had completed the body of the bull, whereupon he painted the bull with his head turned around looking back! The caves were discovered in 1876-9 by an archeologist who took his little girl to the cave. She exclaimed, "Poppa, look at the oxen galloping across the ceiling!"

Our paleolithic ancestors lived in caves where they painted animals and signs of women. On the mediterranean littoral of France and Italy, our african ancestors sculpted women in 25,000 BCE&endash; a date earlier than the paintings of bulls in the Altamira caves. Our ancestors hunted and gathered, wore animal skins, roasted meat with aromatic herbs, covered their dead with red ochre, believed in life after death, and used the color ochre red (connoting blood of childbirth and menstruation) everywhere. This iron oxide, or ochre hematite, produces reds, yellows, and browns. In prehistory as well as in the contemporary culture of Spain, the color ochre red was, and is, pervasive, as is the pubic V, that other major sign of the prehistoric dark mother. In the recent past, archeologists of Spain described this V as sign of a roof; today the V is acknowledged as sign of the vulva.

During our stay at Santillana to visit the Altamira caves, we happened upon the festa of San Juliana, a festival that remembers what happened to the dark mother during the spanish inquisition &endash; she became a bruja, or witch. In the courtyard of our parador, a woman dressed as a witch went around smacking people with her broom, to the laughter of the crowd. We brought home a figurine of a triangular shaped catalonian witch.

At Salamanca we saw the black madonna in the cathedral, Nostra Senora de la Vega, dated 1150, who is patroness of the city. During the spanish inquisition, clerics hit on a clever way of hiding the blackness of black madonnas with silver gilding. Regional legends suggest that the official church (negatively) and the people (positively for the most part) associated the black madonna with african moors.

In the 1930s, the bitter civil war in Spain played out the perennial struggle of the values of the ancient mother against patriarchy. The fascists won. When Franco died in 1975, spaniards threw off ideological and other constraints. Today spanish progressive newspapers describe Bush as a dim-witted Caeser and people wear blue jeans (often cut off) everywhere. In the Plaza Mayor at Salamanca, there is folk dancing and hilarity until the middle of the night &endash; every night.

As we drove through the Estremadura I thought of Teresa, that remarkable woman of jewish heritage who forced the church (who persecuted her grandfather) to keep its clutches off her nuns &endash; by insisting on private prayer. She taught her nuns to dance and reformed decadent convents and monasteries. We visited one of her discalced carmelite convents in Salamanca, where Theresa experienced one of her "ecstasies." Outside, while we photographed the casa, a semitic looking gentleman stopped by to advise that the people had slept there in 1977. As he departed, he surprised me by saying "Allah." I thought about the paradoxes and contemporary poignancy of medieval affinities between jews and muslims, and, as well as the paradoxes in the church's attempt to impose catholicism on them. Paradox upon paradox may be implicit in the pope's naming Teresa in 1970 as first woman "doctor" (theologian) of the catholic church.

From our room in the parador of Toledo (a reconstructed moorish fortress which looks like a movie set for the Arabian Nights), we could see the moorish Alcazar and christian cathedral. We visited the neighborhood of what had been a large jewish community, a juderia with flowers spilling over balconies onto narrow cobble stone streets and shops featuring jewish religious objects and contemporary art. The abandoned sinagoga conveys the riddles of spanish history &endash; the synagogue has moorish striped arches; when it was converted into a church, they called the black madonna "Santa Maria la Blanca" or, white. We took pause at the statue of Maimonides, jewish philosopher who wrote hebrew theological treatises in arabic. And meditated on the limpiezza, the ethnic and religious cleansing of the spanish reconquest &endash; wherein first they conquered the moors, then they imposed christian churches on mosques and synagogues, then forced jews to convert to christianity or leave, and then, during the counter reformation, went after heretics, many of them women, who remembered the dark mother of prehistory.

Prehistoric african presence in Spain is visible in the persistence of signs of the dark mother. The persistence of the attitudes behind ethnic and religious cleansing is seen in contemporary unacknowledgment of the prehistoric african origins of spanish people, as well as popular omission of the african origin of the moors who held Spain from the 7th century until that fateful year 1492 (when the last moorish bastion, Granada, fell). Spanish scientists attest to african origins of the spanish people (as well as of everyone else in the world) but popular descriptions of prehistory in Spain refer to the celts (white and aryan), and to spanish culture as "celto-iberian," leaving "iberian" mysteriously undefined. In some places, like Tarragona, seat of the western roman empire, the romans are emphasized; elsewhere, where the romans are disliked, spaniards refer to their origins in the visigoths, who gave the final blows to the decaying roman empire and became christians.

All this avoidance of african origins of all peoples (Spain, of course, is not unique in this) is analagous to the unblacking of black madonnas in Spain, notably by gilding black madonnas in silver or gold, or by just changing her name. Or, as in the case of the black madonna in the cathedral of Toledo, whose color is clearly black today, they just call her La Madonna la Blanca, or the white madonna. This almost comedic methodology is seen in the case of Seville where the church left the very beautiful moorish mosque alone (notably its famous giralda and moorish arches in red and sandstone) and simply build a christian church inside the mosque. That moors were blacks from Africa is omitted but there is spanish appreciation of moorish art and architecture today. The Alhambra in Granada is a national monument of Spain which brings uncounted numbers of world travelers to marvel at the richness and beauty of moorish civilization. In official moorish culture, as well as in rabbinical judaism, graven images of the divinity are prohibited, but moorish artisans remembered the dark mother in the pubic V and color ochre red which are everywhere in the Alhambra and everywhere else in Spain &endash; carpets, tiles, walls, et al. The jewish star of David (which feminists like to point out is a double yoni*) is everywhere today in Spain, along with the many pointed star associated with the muslim moors, and the five pointed star of christianity.

In the archeological museum of Seville, I began to bodily understand the complexity of the meaning of "moor." Moors were from Africa where, before their 7th century CE expansion into Europe, they had absorbed roman civilization (which had inherited greek civilization). In Europe the moors encountered and absorbed visigothic christian culture. In the subsequent environment in Spain when moors ruled, there was, among the people, considerable mutual respect among moors, jewsm, christians, not so speak of attraction (there was lots of intermarriage).

Near Cadiz, which almost touches Africa, we visited the black madonna of Chipiona, Virgen de la Regla (connoting order in the universe) who, in another datum that gives one pause, became the patron saint of Cuba. Here, where the waters of the Atlantic meet the waters of the Mediterranean (whose waters embrace the shores of Africa, west Asia and Europe) peoples are of all hues and tolerate differences, whether of skin or religious belief.

The black madonna of Chipiona rearranged my earlier thinking. The genetic hypthosis that Africa is everyone's origin needs to be understood alongside the attractions felt by people of different cultures for one another and the incredible amount of back and forthing, of peoples and cultures, in prehistory and history. North Africa produced the first theologian of christianity, Augustine. His theology (which remains the foundation of christian theology) is misogynistic. Yet augustinian monks took images of black madonnas of north Africa to monasteries in Spain, and preserved them in their manuscripts until the great wave of entusiasm for black madonnas surgaced in Spain in the 15th and 17th centuries. One school of thought, which I need to investigate, links black madonnas to the exuberance of spanish baroque art (Velasquez, Goy et al.) and to spanish baroque drama.

The memory of the dark mother was also brought to Spain in the wonderfuly crafted jewelry and gold images of Isis, Cybele and Astarte by phoenicians/canaanites who established trading posts in Spain and adjoining islands, notably Ibiza. The meory was also transmitted by roman Spain; this is evident in roman holdings of spanish museums that eature images of african amazons. In the christian epoch the memory of the africal dark mother was preserved in the manuscripts of augustinian monks.

This trip to Spain confirmed my research in dark mother, african origins and godmothers, and supplemented my earlier thinking that her memory was transmitted in the everyday life of peoples. We went to Guadalupe because we wanted to see the original icon and setting for the black madonna who has become the matron saint of North and South America. Nostra Senora de Guadalupe embodies many ironies. She came with the conquistadores to the Americas where she tapped native american rituals to the dark mother. Today she is the icon of liberation for the struggles of native americans. Yet in the early modern era in Spain the madonna of Guadalupe was invoked by christian reconquerors in the belief she could help defeat the moors!

There is similarity of deep belief in countries where the memory of the dark mother is close to consciousness. In Spain, this is apparent in the deep belief that one must go backward to understand the present. Spain's ethnic mix also suggests the genetic similarity of all the world's peoples. A young woman who served us dinner in a parador at Carmona, near Seville, bore a distinct resemblance to our american grand daughter Saprina, whose ancestry is english/german protestant, northern european jewish, and southern italian catholic, leading me to meditate on how these two young women, with very different cultural make-up, could look so alike.

As often happened this time in Spain, I forgot the spanish word for grand daughter. I explained that I was an abuela (grandmother) of a girl who looked like her. The spanish

posted 14 February 2005 08:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Gk. melas (gen. melanos) "black" http://www.etymonline.com

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I knew you were stupid, but I thought you had at least advanced beyond Afrocentrism 101. I'm very disappointed. If Herodotus' description of Egyptians as Melanochroes meant they were literally "black-skinned", then I wonder why other classical writers didn't describe them the same way:

Egyptians had a "medium tone"

"The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone." -- Manilius, Astronomica 4.724