posted 22 May 2005 05:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

PN2 E3a and E3b are both indigenous to Africa, closely related to each other and originate among Black Africans, having nothing to do with the I and R clade ice age ancestral European white people.

---

Thought Writes:

Rasol, you are absolutely right. I would go further and add that Hg R predates "white people". Types similar to the early Grimaldi Man probably spread this upstream lineage back into Africa during the Upper Paleolithic. R1b1 is European specific, however R1a1 spread from Asia to Eastern Europe with the Huns most likely.

posted 22 May 2005 10:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Rasol, you are absolutely right. I would go further and add that Hg R predates "white people". Types similar to the early Grimaldi Man probably spread this upstream lineage back into Africa during the Upper Paleolithic. R1b1 is European specific, however R1a1 spread from Asia to Eastern Europe with the Huns most likely.

---

...unless you believe as CL Brace does...

present-day European skulls resemble Neanderthal skulls more closely than they resemble the skulls of American Indians or Australian aborigines."

posted 23 May 2005 05:34 AM            

He seems to think the position of Ethiopians in this map is due to being 'paternally Caucasoid', but when we read the actually study we get a different explanation:

"The second most frequent Jewish haplotype, YAP+ haplotype 4, was common in Middle Eastern and southern European populations and reached its highest frequency in North Africa. The discovery of its precursor (YAP+ haplotype 4L) in seven Ethiopian males supports the hypothesis that the YAP+ haplotype 4S originated on a YAP+ 4L chromosome in Ethiopia (20,000 years ago), where it likely increased in frequency before spreading down the Nile River toward Egypt and the Levant (32). This hypothesis is consistent with mtDNA evidence indicating south-to-north gene flow down the Nile (45)."

Proof that Erroneous E can't properly read and interpet DNA plots

Not to worry, I'm going through all of these studies he misreads. This is just the beginning. No one is denying that there was geneflow from the Middle East into Ethiopia, but from this study based on that map, part of the reason why Ethiopians grouped closer to Egyptians and Tunisians is because of geneflow going *OUT* of Africa, not in. Lets see the idiot continue to spam that plot and come up with some weak explanation. Also notice Russian are grouped among the European cluster, while Erroneous E said they were not European based on another plot but he spams both of them together.Thats why I said he often spams together information that is often discordant with his ridiculous theories.

posted 23 May 2005 07:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Read and weep you retarded racist:

The Lemba of Africa have a substantial genetic contribution from peoples of the Middle East, Jewish people in fact who apparently arrived in South Africa 2,000 years ago; nobody's sure exactly when-bringing genes with them which have made a substantial contribution to the gene pool of the Lemba. They look just like other southern Africans. All those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

---

Of course ordinary Lemba look like other blacks, because we've discovered that they only have ~5% Caucasoid admixture. The Buba clan has ~25%, and we have yet to see significant enough numbers of that Lemba subset to gauge its phenotypic diversity. Again, we've been over this before. Wake up, monkey.

quote:

---

Unlabled, unnamed 1 thru 10

---

They're labeled. You just never bother to properly read anything that conflicts with your ideology:

http://www.geocities.com/enbp/physanth.html

quote:

---

The Somali are shown within the African cluster

---

The shading is arbitrary. The Somali sample is actually located closer to the English sample (#4) than it is to the western/central/southern African sample -- and by a wide margin. Somalis are not fully, or even predominantly, Negroid.

quote:

---

1] imply that Black African morphology is 'recent' and is denoted by recent E3A hapogroup, but this fails as many Black African groups, including extremely dark Southern Sudanese have little or no E3A.

---

It doesn't fail when you remember to factor in the spread of Negroid mtDNA throughout Africa relatively recently.

quote:

---

2] imply that Black African morphology is 'ancient' and denoted by Haplogroups A or B....but A and B predate and are ancestral to PN2 [E3a and E3b] as shown, and this would tend to confirm that Africa's population has always been Black.

---

posted 23 May 2005 08:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Idiot, when you explain my answers then we can progress.

---

Your "answers" are just opinions and unsupported claims. We can't progress until you produce some hard evidence that refutes the many studies and maps I've posted. Good luck.

quote:

---

He seems to think the position of Ethiopians in this map is due to being 'paternally Caucasoid'

---

* Yawn *

"On the basis of historical, linguistic, and genetic data, it has been suggested that the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times. On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas ~40% is of Caucasoid derivation.... Our Ethiopian sample also lacks the sY81-G allele, which was associated with 86% and 69% of Senegalese and mixed-African YAP+ chromosomes, respectively. This suggests that male-mediated gene flow from Niger-Congo speakers to the Ethiopian population was probably very limited ... Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. Conversely, the Niger-Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females." (Passarino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 1998)

"Considering the erythrocyte enzyme data, the Oromo and Amhara appear quite similar to Europoids (particularly to the South Arabians) and considerably different from the Negritic peoples. There is evidence for close genetic affinity among the Cushitic- and Semitic-speaking population groups of the Horn. Admixture between Europoid and Negritic populations seems to have been the main microevolutionary factor in generating the present day Cushitic (and Semitic)-speaking group of eastern Africa." (Tartaglia et al., Am J Hum Biol, 1996)

"The occurrence of E*5 212 and E*5 204 alleles in two populations of the Mediterranean basin (Turkey and Italy) but not in West Africans can be explained by taking into account that the Ethiopian gene pool was estimated to be >40% of Caucasoid derivation (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). In addition, more recent phylogenetic analysis based on classical protein polymorphism (Tartaglia et al. 1996) and Y-chromosome sequence variation (Underhill et al. 2000) showed that Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin." (Scacchi et al., Hum Biol, 2003)

posted 23 May 2005 08:08 AM            

quote:

---

Erroneous idiot writes: Of course ordinary Lemba look like other blacks

---

....of course you are an idiot, and have no idea of what you're talking about. All Lemba are Black.

Caucazoid genes don't exist . Sorry.

posted 23 May 2005 08:25 AM            

quote:

---

The shading is arbitrary.

---

The shading is arbitrary, and the groupings are contrived, with the Somali plotted individually [like the non africans] but not other African ethnic groups who are lumped together.

quote:

---

the Somali are closer to group 4

---

Conversely group 4 is closer to the Somali than it is to group 7 or group 2 or group 10 on that flawed Brace map.

And you evaded the main point....which is that groups 1 - 10, which you say are Europeans do not cluster together anymore than the Somali and other Africans.

And the Somali are not any more intermediate on that map than Group 4.

Only India is shown as intermediate.

TopDog is right. You can't read maps.

posted 23 May 2005 08:33 AM            

quote:

---

It doesn't fail when you remember to factor in the spread of Negroid mtDNA

---

Yes it fails miserably in maternal dna too.

And your phony rhetoric gives you away as always,because there are no white women native to East Africa, and there is no East African mtdna that corresponds to white women, hence you do not even "name" and East African mtdna that is supposedly 'caucazoid'.

Having no proof, you substitute laughable excuses for the LACK of proof.

That's why even Dienekes is abandoning his own foolish ideas...leaving pawns like you to parrot them like a brain-dead flunky stooge, while he sits back and laughs [at you] while trying to think up better, less prepostrous lies.

Face the facts you coward:

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

East Africans have been equatorial [BLACK] for many 10's of thousands of years - CL Brace

And southern Europeans. They have PN2 Y chromsome and Benin HBS because they have admixture from Black Africa.

None of your cringing, squirming, flaming or fibbing will make that reality go away.

But lets get back to the question you once again fail to answer:

What happened to your chronology?

Don't you have one?

Still working on it?

Without one, you're running in circles.

Instead, you better run back to Dienekes, you defeated disappointed dunce.

posted 23 May 2005 01:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Khoisanids are not "Black Africans". They're a distinct race that's ancestral to all humans. From them evolved Negroids in West Africa (E3a) and Caucasoids in East Africa/Eurasia (E3b).

---

Okay, I am following you. However, you really need to drop the silly use of caucasoids since it is an absurd idea. East Africa is a long way from the Caucus mountains. It like the dumb idea of calling Native American people Indians just because some dick head was lost. We should correct this stupidity but no, we perpetuate due to tradition.

Also, Negroids is silly since it only means "being of Black". You are also contradicting yourself since you gave a definition of Negroid that clearly Khoisandis fall into (a ridiculous race classification by the way since most Asian people would then be classified as Negroid: and definately the Olmecs).

Most reasonable American people think, Khoisanids are black people. Nelson Mandela is an example of a Hottentot. However, again I use a non-racial bias person that it is outside of the racist social paradigms of our society, my Wife. Koreans, most that I have talked to, do not think that people like Nelson Mandela are black, just like your argument. Primarily because these people look like dark Koreans.

So whats my point?

Race is more about politics than science! The problem is clear, you can draw the line in East Africa but then you have reclassified 30% of the black population in America (which isn't politically workable and race is all about politics).

Its time to accept the reality: RACE has no place in science. Its just about politics.

From Black features in Greece to White features in Central Africa: its all just about environmental adaptation and diet (just minor superficial genes).

From character to culture, it is not defined by the appearance of a person but by his/er will and spirit.

posted 23 May 2005 02:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
* Yawn *

"On the basis of historical, linguistic, and genetic data, it has been suggested that the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times. On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas ~40% is of Caucasoid derivation.... Our Ethiopian sample also lacks the sY81-G allele, which was associated with 86% and 69% of Senegalese and mixed-African YAP+ chromosomes, respectively. This suggests that male-mediated gene flow from Niger-Congo speakers to the Ethiopian population was probably very limited ... Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. Conversely, the Niger-Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females." (Passarino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 1998)

---

The Passarino study has been addressed just like I said it was and the *UP TO DATE* consensus in that the simple admixture model isn't totally plausible. Tischkoff et tal even cited it in her study, but she rejected the hypothesis that Ethiopians and Somalis are centrally located due to being mixed. You can't let go of dated studies just like you can't let go of 65 year old carleton Coon books about 'white' Masai and Tutsis.

quote:

---

"Considering the erythrocyte enzyme data, the Oromo and Amhara appear quite similar to Europoids (particularly to the South Arabians) and considerably different from the Negritic peoples. There is evidence for close genetic affinity among the Cushitic- and Semitic-speaking population groups of the Horn. Admixture between Europoid and Negritic populations seems to have been the main microevolutionary factor in generating the present day Cushitic (and Semitic)-speaking group of eastern Africa." (Tartaglia et al., Am J Hum Biol, 1996)

---

Refer again back to Tischkoff et tal redarding this matter. Recent studies support her theory of a genetic bottleneck in Ethiopia.

quote:

---

"The occurrence of E*5 212 and E*5 204 alleles in two populations of the Mediterranean basin (Turkey and Italy) but not in West Africans can be explained by taking into account that the Ethiopian gene pool was estimated to be >40% of Caucasoid derivation (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). In addition, more recent phylogenetic analysis based on classical protein polymorphism (Tartaglia et al. 1996) and Y-chromosome sequence variation (Underhill et al. 2000) showed that Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin." (Scacchi et al., Hum Biol, 2003)

---

Do you even know with apolipoproteins are? Using your logic, since Greeks and Italians have the sickle cell trait they're closer to sub-Saharans genetically than to other populations of Europe. That ought to give you an idea of what those proteins deal with.

posted 23 May 2005 03:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
osirian writes: Okay, I am following you.

---

Erroneous thrives on baiting ill-informed discussants so he can 'get off' his ignorance and distortion. He is like a one-man bubonic plague of ignorance. Make sure you are vacinated and immune to his disease.

Disinfecting....

The San are modern Black African people as are the Sotha and Somali, and they are all native Africans and related to each other in terms of lineage, and none of them have any specific relationship to non-African peoples.

None of these modern peoples are anyone's "ancestors".

In terms of physical appearance, 60 thousand year old fossils found in Border Cave in South Africa are considered Bantu like by some and San like by others. The same is true for 35,000 year old human remains found in the Nile Valley. The same is true for the modern Xhosa, or Hadza because the phenotypes of these peoples are similar, the differences are superficial and the further back in time you go, the more difficult it becomes to distinguish them.

That's why you get statements from the likes of Larry Angel relating to Neolithic remains as follows:

"...one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters and in Anatolian and Macedonian firts farmers, probably from Nubia..."

Make sure you understand what Angel is saying.

The San groups carry extremely high diversity of African mtdna including L1,L2 and L3...all of which are African as well as M35* Y chromosome [original E3b] and signature Y Khoisan Haplogroup A.

Why is this noteworthy?

Because Erroneous contradicts himself as he 'blames' Haplogroup A for the Black African [as opposed to????] appearance of peoples like the Oromo and other Black Africans:

let's review:

quote:

---

Top Dog writes: This study places Ethiopian Jews closer to other Africans, not with 'caucazoids'

---

quote:

---

Erroneous obtuses: that might have something to do with the presence of haplogroup A

---

There are no white natives of Black Africa.

If Erroneous wishes to dispute this truth let him produce his chronology for non-existant caucazoids of Black Africa.

He won't. Because he doesn't have one.

But you can bet he will reply to your post, since you are begging him to lead you on a wild goose chase - follow as you like.

posted 23 May 2005 03:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

The term: "black African" is also political.

---

True. All ethnic terms are political. Who says otherwise?

quote:

---

Black is a color and not a people and a good majority of Africans are not "Black".

---

Actually virtually no people on earth are literally Black, or white, or red or yellow.

quote:

---

However, using the term black in a social context, therefore in a political sense, most Africans are clearly Black (certainly the East Africans).

---

True. And the politics of ethnicity in SADC is that San Groups are regarded as a part of the Black African majority.

Here's a thread on this issue: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001965.html

Let's stay on topic - the PN2 clade.

posted 23 May 2005 03:47 PM            

quote:

---

Do you even know with apolipoproteins are? Using your logic, since Greeks and Italians have the sickle cell trait they're closer to sub-Saharans genetically than to other populations of Europe. That ought to give you an idea of what those proteins deal with.

---

Erroneous E tries to deflect the reality of Black African admixture in Europe, by using South Yeman or some other non European population as proxy.

But this approach explodes in his face, since European and Black African affinities primarily reflect gene and population flow FROM Black Africa to Europe. [Angel, McCown, Keita, Ehret, Bar-Yosef, etc.]

posted 23 May 2005 05:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]Erroneous obtuses: that might have something to do with the presence of haplogroup A

---

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 23 May 2005).][/QUOTE]

Where the race line is drawn is all about politics. So when I said: "Okay, I am following you", it doesn't mean I agree, it only meant that I understood his point.

posted 23 May 2005 05:05 PM            

quote:

---

According to science, he is clearly wrong since we do not descend from SAN.

---

Correct. Thanks for clarifying your pov.

posted 23 May 2005 05:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
True. And the politics of ethnicity in SADC is that San Groups are regarded as a part of the Black African majority.

Here's a thread on this issue: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001965.html

Let's stay on topic - the PN2 clade.

When you leave the topic you help the Troll.

---

Sorry, I thought this thread was about picking on anything Erroneous has said.

posted 24 May 2005 07:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
....of course you are an idiot, and have no idea of what you're talking about. All Lemba are Black.

---

Wow, good rebuttal. Lots of hard evidence there.

quote:

---

And you evaded the main point....which is that groups 1 - 10, which you say are Europeans do not cluster together anymore than the Somali and other Africans.

---

Eurasians occupy the right-hand portion of the plot. Asians occupy the lower left. And Sub-Saharan Africans occupy the upper left. Somalis and Nubians cluster in-between Eurasians and Sub-Saharan Africans. Somalis especially are closer to the farthest European group than they are to western, central and southern Africans. This is not rocket science.

quote:

---

Yes it fails miserably in maternal dna too.

---

No. L1 and L2 were not present in OOA migrants. Hence, they arrived in East Africa after all non-Africans had left the continent. Those lineages represent the Negroid or "Black African" component of Ethiopians, Somalis etc. who are mostly Caucasoid (E3b) paternally.

quote:

---

Because Erroneous contradicts himself as he 'blames' Haplogroup A for the Black African [as opposed to????] appearance of peoples like the Oromo and other Black Africans:

---

posted 24 May 2005 07:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
The Passarino study has been addressed just like I said it was

---

Addressed by whom? Some Afronut? Please post a study that explicitly refutes Passarino's findings (which actually confirm Cavalli-Sforza's earlier findings, so you'd better be able to refute those too).

quote:

---

Refer again back to Tischkoff et tal redarding this matter. Recent studies support her theory of a genetic bottleneck in Ethiopia.

---

posted 24 May 2005 08:37 AM            

quote:

---

Wow, good rebuttal. Lots of hard evidence there.

---

Stop stalling...

Erroneous has had 4 months to lay out his chronology but has failed to do so.

The PN2 Clade shows why - He doesn't have one.

posted 24 May 2005 08:43 AM            

quote:

---

This is not rocket science.

---

It might as well be for you because you are too stupid to read it and your attempts to distort via MIS-interpretation are rather pathetic.

Stop stalling....

quote:

---

Where is your chronology for the development of the racial labels you mindlessly toss around? Where is your definition of terms.

Erroneous Fraud.

---

Tutsi of Rwanda:

[color=green]

• Stature: 176 cm
  
• Head length: 198 mm
  
• Head breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face height: 125 mm
  
• Face breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose height: 56 mm
  
• Nose breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 92.8
  
• Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]

  
  Masai:

  [color=blue]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 140 mm
  
• Face Height: 121 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 137 mm
  
• Nose Height: 54 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 47.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 72.8
  
• Facial Index: 89.0
  
• Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]

  
  Galla(Oromo):

  [color=red]

• Stature: 171 cm
  
• Head length: 190 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face Height: 122 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 133 mm
  
• Nose Height: 53 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 37 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.3
  
• Cephalic Index: 77.6
  
• Facial Index: 91.5
  
• Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]

  Sab Somali:

  [color=gray]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 145 mm
  
• Face Height: 119 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose Height: 49 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 36 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.7
  
• Facial Index: 88.5
  
• Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]

  Warsingali Somali:

  [color=navy]

• Stature: 168 cm
  
• Head length: 192 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 143 mm
  
• Face Height: 123 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 131 mm
  
• Nose Height: 52 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 34 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 94.1
  
• Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
  

What's taking so long?

posted 24 May 2005 08:53 AM            

quote:

---

No. L1 and L2 were not present in OOA migrants. Hence, they arrived in East Africa after all non-Africans had left the continent.

---

Irrelevant as ALL non-Africans, including Indonesians, Fijiians, Vietnamese, Australians are descendant from L3X lineages, and they are not white.

During OOA there were no whites, and no Europeans except for Brace's Neanderthal Cave man.

If you need to invent a 'unique' European ancestry.....that's where you can start your search, not with L mtdna lineages which are native to Black Africa and otherwise found only as African admixture in Southern Europeans & West Asians - there are no East African caucasians. Sorry

Unrefuted facts:

quote:

---

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

Europeans and Asian-Australians did develop more unique genetic profiles over time, but had a common background before their average "uniqueness" emerged. This background is African in a bio-historical sense. Therefore, it should not be surprising that some Africans share similarities with non-Africans." - Keita

East Africans have been equatorial [BLACK] for many 10's of thousands of years - CL Brace

Where do white people come from?

A primitive, stone-age human came to Europe in two waves of migration beginning about 40,000 years ago. Their numbers were small and they lived by hunting animals and gathering plant food. They used crudely sharpened stones and fire.
About 24,000 years ago, the last ice age began, with mountain-sized glaciers moving across most of Europe. Paleolithic Europeans retreated before the ice, finding refuge for hundreds of generations in three areas: what is now Spain, the Balkans and the Ukraine.About 80 percent of Europeans arose from primitive hunters who arrived about 40,000 years ago, endured the long ice age and then expanded rapidly to dominate the continent, a new study shows.
Researchers analyzing the Y chromosome [Haplogroup R] taken from 1,007 men from 25 different locations in Europe found a pattern that suggests four out of five of the men shared a common male ancestor about 40,000 years ago.
- PA UnderHill, First Europeans.

---

Europeans are a recent and marginal branch of the human family denoted by haplogroups R and I, which was present with them in their ICE AGE refuges where they adapted to their new environment.

Africans [East and West] developed and adapted to their African environs as denoted by native African and shared M96 lineages.

You can't debate the above scientists because you are too stupid and bigoted to understand what they are saying.

You can't dispute the above chronology because you don't have one.

You can't answer the relevant questions.

You can't baffle anyone with your banality.

You can only continue to bore us.

posted 24 May 2005 02:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
That has no bearing on the unambiguous conclusion that [b]"Admixture between Europoid and Negritic populations seems to have been the main microevolutionary factor in generating the present day Cushitic (and Semitic)-speaking group of eastern Africa."[/B]

---

Human Evolutionary History

The (CA)n-1/Alu and (CA)n-2/Alu haplotype systems are highly informative for reconstructing historical migration and population-differentiation events, as demonstrated by the PCA plot of population-clustering based on haplotype-frequency variation (fig. 4). These results are consistent with anthropological knowledge, results from studies of classical markers (Nei and Roychoudhury 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Nei 1995), and results from molecular markers from autosomes (Bowcock et al. 1991, 1994; Jorde et al. 1995, 1997; Nei 1995; Armour et al. 1996; Tishkoff 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Harding et al. 1997; Stoneking et al. 1997; Zietkiewicz 1997, 1998; Calafell et al. 1998; Kidd et al. 1998, 2000; Harris and Hey 1999), mtDNA (Cann et al. 1987; Vigilant et al. 1989, 1991; Merriwether 1991; Penny et al. 1995), and Y chromosome DNA (Hammer 1995; Hammer et al. 1997, 1998; Underhill et al. 1997). These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversityand that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalismakes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998)that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999).

Read the whole thing through Erroneous E, slowly.

posted 24 May 2005 08:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

L1 and L2 were not present in OOA migrants. Hence, they arrived in East Africa after all non-Africans had left the continent. Those lineages represent the Negroid or "Black African" component of Ethiopians, Somalis etc. who are mostly Caucasoid (E3b) paternally.

---

Thought Writes:

As Salas et al. demonstrate, L2a spread to East Africa PRIOR to the LGM and hence prior to the spread of E3b out of Africa.

posted 25 May 2005 02:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

As Salas et al. demonstrate, L2a spread to East Africa PRIOR to the LGM and hence prior to the spread of E3b out of Africa.

---

Correct and relevant.

In contrast to Erroneous comments pertaining all non Africans, which is to say mostly non-whites, being derived from L3X lineages prior to the PN2 clade, which is completely irrelevant.

posted 25 May 2005 07:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Erroneous has had 4 months to lay out his chronology but has failed to do so. The PN2 Clade shows why - He doesn't have one.

---

Non-answer

quote:

---

It might as well be for you because you are too stupid to read it and your attempts to distort via MIS-interpretation are rather pathetic.

---

Non-answer

quote:

---

During OOA there were no whites, and no Europeans

---

No, but there were undifferentiated humans who resembled modern non-Africans (including Europeans) far more than they did modern black Africans (Howells, 1995).

quote:

---

You can only continue to bore us.

---

posted 25 May 2005 07:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:

Read the whole thing through Erroneous E, slowly.

---

That study doesn't refute Passarino or Cavalli-Sforza or any of the other sources I posted. In fact, it even cites the Passarino study:

"The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow."

Then it says . . .

"...these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe."

. . . which lends support to Howells' finding that pre-historic East Africans were phenotypically (and genetically) non-African.

I've explained all of this before:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001611.html

posted 25 May 2005 07:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
As Salas et al. demonstrate, L2a spread to East Africa PRIOR to the LGM and hence prior to the spread of E3b out of Africa.

---

posted 25 May 2005 08:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You're angry, frustrated, desperate and drowning,

---

quote:

---

but definitely not bored.

---

Yawn. We all are. But only with you. Where's that chronology?

quote:

---

No, but there were undifferentiated humans

---

In which case - which L clade was/was not present in OOA humans is completely irrelevant. It's called mooting your own argument. Where's that chronology?

Yet another lesson for Erroneous E.

What you need, and don't have...is ancient East African whites, without whom you simply have no point.

quote:

---

who resembled modern non-Africans

---

Modern non African bearing OOA L3x only mtdna lineages.....

What happened to your native East African whites?

Did you give up on them? Now they're 'undifferentiated' where undifferentiated apparently equates to-> DOES NOT ACTUALLY EXIST.

* If they didn't migrate-out of Africa, as you just admited?

* If they didn't migrate in to Africa as you implicitly admit?

* If East Africans are not white as you have no choice but to admit, blind and stupid though you are....

Then you've just written another completely pointless reply.

Keep working on that chronology and definition of terms.

Have Dienekes help you.

Maybe you'll start making sense, and stop boring everyone.

Maybe you can't?

posted 25 May 2005 12:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
That study doesn't refute Passarino or Cavalli-Sforza or any of the other sources I posted. In fact, it even cites the Passarino study:

"The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; [b]Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow."

Then it says . . .

"...these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe."

. . . which lends support to Howells' finding that pre-historic East Africans were phenotypically (and genetically) non-African.

I've explained all of this before:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001611.html

[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 25 May 2005).][/B]

---

This is rather absurd. You call them East Africans but then refer to their phenotype as non-African as if to say that their type is foreign to Africa. A clear indication of you bigotry and common to your kind. You cannot wrap your cromagnon mind around the idea that not all Blacks look alike.

posted 25 May 2005 01:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
For the last time, retarded negro, since E3b-carrying Europeans (e.g. Greeks) don't have any L2a mtDNA, your "point" is [b]completely irrelevant.[/B]

---

It is always relevant to expose your blunderings.

However, I find this discussion very interesting. E3a and E3b are clearly related. Apparently both originating from the Nile and unrelated to cromagnon. Clearly, the more European you are the less frequency of E3b is.

###
It is seen most frequently along the Mediterranean coast - especially at the eastern end. Semino et al saw E3b at frequencies of 20-24% in Greece, 10-27% in Italy, and 2-11% in Spain. Capelli et al saw E3b in Britain at frequencies of 0-6%, in Germany at 3%, and less than 0.5% in Norway. Studies by Al-Zahery et al and Lucotte et al indicate that most E3b's probably yield a result of ht5 for tests of the 49a,f Taq/I locus.

####

E3b is not native to the cromagnon race. This is shown by the fact that Norway shows the least frequency of E3b and they are the most European (or distinguishably different from other racial groups ).

Interesting, the more E3b frequency the more civilization your ancestry can trace back to. Doesn't appear to be of cromagnon descent and shows origins in Africa. Interesting how this just supports the wild ideas of those Afro-nuts. Consequently why you want to redraw the race line to include Somalians in the cromagnon race.

Makes perfect sense from a cromagnon. Opps, did those Aryans not have enough E3b frequency to be included as the originators of western civilization? Damn, thats just too bad. Whatever are we going to do brother? Guess we have to stop burning them crosses and learn how to rap because our gig is up and the truth has been revealed. Looks like them Jews of mixed blood really did start it all, no wonder we worship a Jewish God....duh duh duh duh!!

posted 25 May 2005 02:24 PM            

The ancestors of Europeans had left Africa before the emergence of the PN2 clade.

The PN2 clade is E3a and E3b.

A clade by definition is a lineage or common ancestry.

This is a biological fact, which can be contrasted with 'race'.....a highly convoluted often contradictory ideology that is being discarded by modern bioanthropology.

When the 1st Europeans settled in their glacial refugees, they belonged to Haplogroups R and I, giving them a lineage and ancestry distinct from the common shared ancestry of: Somali, Swahilli, San.

[some South and East African Groups carry underived E3b-M35*, which is the oldest form of E3b and found essentially only in sub-saharan Africa]

So in terms of lineage most Africans can be related to each other and distinguished from Europeans in a coherent and objective fashion.

In the Neolithic, Africans spread down the Nile Valley, and into the Levant and Europe.

This is important because the Neolithic denotes the beginnings of agriculture and animal domestication, which were clearly imported into Europe from Africa and West Asia.

Historian Christopher Ehret puts this all together nicely and accurately summarises the facts that make Erroneous Euro cry:

There are at least seven or eight ­ maybe eleven to thirteen ­ world regions which independently invented agriculture. None in Europe, by the way.....We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people FROM northeast Africa INTO southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.

Lastly, even the term Cro-Magnon can't be used as a synonym for white/caucasian or European and here's why:

The term Cro-Magnon has no formal taxonomic status, since it refers neither to a species or subspecies nor to an archaeological phase or culture. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cromagnon.html

Erroneous will seek any aspect of your post that he can respond to that allows him to evade the fact of the PN2 clade and deflect the issue away from his lack of chronology for his caucazoid contrivance..

claims that caucazoids existed in East Africa have been shown to be wrong - JO Vogel.

posted 25 May 2005 04:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

What happened to your native East African whites?

Did you give up on them?

---

posted 25 May 2005 06:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

This is rather absurd. You call them East Africans but then refer to their phenotype as non-African as if to say that their type is foreign to Africa. A clear indication of you bigotry and common to your kind. You cannot wrap your cromagnon mind around the idea that not all Blacks look alike.

---

when euro trash means east african he is talking about ethiopians and somalians,like they are the only east africans.
even those states have different groups.
you could find most east, west and other africans that look closely alike more or less,some others less so on average,but you could say the same for other racial groups,but there is one thing among many things they have in common,most are black africans and most racial look black,not white or a brown raced type.

posted 25 May 2005 07:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
when euro trash means east african he is talking about ethiopians and somalians,like they are the only east africans.

---

Kenndo, you are correct, but keep in mind the issue of which groups were in East Africa at different times.

Take the countries of Kenya and Tanzania for example.

Bantu language speakers like the Kikuyu originate in West/Central Africa, and migrated into East Africa rather recently.

Nilo Saharan speakers like the Masai
have been in East Africa for far longer.

Cushite speakers like the Borana for longer still.

And the ancesters of the Hadza since before then.

Kenndo: The reason the emphasis is placed on Cushites is because they were in East Africa during the Neolithic and it is their ancestors who spread down the Nile Valley and out into the Levant and into Europe.

The ancestors of the Kikuyu were still living
in Central/West Africa at that time.

Djehuti first posted a nice synopsis which clarifies:

The Peopling of East Africa

...The original (human) inhabitants of East Africa were probably hunter-gatherers who spoke click languages similar to the Khoisan people. The Sandawe and Hadza of Tanzania are perhaps the only direct descendants remaining in East Africa today. Over thousands of years, these people retreated or were absorbed as others migrated into the area. This later peopling of East Africa was carried out by three main African groups: the Cushitic-speaking peoples; the Nilotic-speaking peoples; and lastly the Bantu-speaking peoples. All these groupings are based on linguistic and cultural patterns and comprise the ancestors of most present-day East Africans– the Black Africans.
The Cushitic people originated from the Ethiopian Highlands and were the first known food producers in East Africa. They spread out from their original dispersal site to occupy most of northeastern Africa and some also migrated south. The Cushitic peoples probably already reached the Kenyan Higlands by c.1000BCE. The Oromo of Ethiopia and northeast Kenya are Eastern Cushitics. The Nilotes probably originated from the Sahel in the west and migrated east to the Nile River region of southern Sudan. They later moved further east until they reached the southwestern borders of the Ethiopian Highlands. The Nilotes are further divided into three branches based on where they migrated to: the Highland and Plains Nilotes (who are also part Cushitic) and the River-Lake Nilotes. Between 1000BCE and 1500CE, the Highland and Plains Nilotes migrated into the highlands and plains of Kenya and Tanzania. The Maasai and the Karamojong are Plains Nilotes. The River Lake Nilotes, however, followed the Nile Valley and settled in the lakes region of northern Uganda or traveled north to present-day southern Sudan. The Bantu people originated in eastern Nigeria. At first, they spread through the equatorial rainforest belt and then, between 500BCE and 300CE, eastward and southward into East and Southern Africa. Later migrations– from the south to the east– further dispersed them throughout the region. The Kikuyu, Ganda, Nyoro and Nyamwezi people are all Bantu in origin, as are most of the population of East Africa, but are confined mainly to the regions south of the Horn....

Dr. Elizabeth Dunstan and David Hall
of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.

All these people are Black all are Africans and all are related - and let it be stressed that the Cushites are every bit as much African as the Bantu, especially since they were in East Africa 'before' the Bantu.

So there is no use in playing them against each other, as the Eurocentrists try and fail to do.

Hadza

posted 25 May 2005 08:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Incorrect. I said that haplogroup A partially accounts for why Ethiopian Jews are genetically closer to Africans than to Middle Easterners.

---

lol. Dizzy fool. YOUR ORIGINAL LIE was to deny that they were closer to other Africans in the 1st place. now that you admit that lie, let's move on to...

quote:

---

I made no mention of their "Black African appearance".[/b]

---

Yes, you did.

quote:

---

Rasol wrote: Let's have a look at some more of Carleton Coon's "Mediterreanian" caucasoids [Oromo/Borana] .....

....in this case they have E3b and little to no E3a.

Would you like to recant further?

---

Erroneous response to above images:

quote:

---

Yeah, plus some A and B, and almost all L mtDNA

---

So you have in fact repeatedly 'blamed' East African Black phenotype on ancient Haplogroups, such as A&B, which contradicts your 'recent origin of Black African' lie.

Of course this is why you have no chronology, as you have no means of explaining the myriad contradictions.

FEELING DIZZY? STOP SPINNING.

posted 26 May 2005 06:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[B] That study doesn't refute Passarino or Cavalli-Sforza or any of the other sources I posted. In fact, it even cites the Passarino study:

---

Idiot, I said the same thing, but Tischkoff *REJECTS* the admixture hypothesis as the sole reason, you conveniently left out that part and you even admitted it in another post in forum that she doesn't favor the admixture hypothesis.

quote:

---

. . . which lends support to Howells' finding that pre-historic East Africans were phenotypically (and genetically) non-African.

---

Wrong again idiot, I cannot say enough that you're inability to read studies is nothing short of shocking. E3b males did leave Africa via the southern route idiot, published data says E3b left Africa via a *NORTHERN* migration that pqassed through Egypt and into the Levantine corridor. E3b1 is rare to absent in Oman and Yemen, so your prehistoric east African you keep dreaming were non-African[they originated in Africa *BEFORE* the populations they were compared to even were born]looking East Africans were *NOT* Caucasoids bearing E3b you idiot. Read the darn studies you distort instead of telling lies.

How the hell could they be *GENETICALLY* non African when E3b originated in East Africa from all published literature? Are you saying that caucasoids migrated into East Africa, dropped off E3b and then left back out?

posted 26 May 2005 06:55 AM            

" The NRY composition of the Egyptian and Omani collections exhibits a greater Middle Eastern versus sub-Saharan affinity. The cumulative frequency of typical sub-Saharan lineages (A, B, E1, E2, E3a, and E3b*) is 9% in Egypt and 10% in Oman"

And E3b-M35 is derived from it, read this again for the upteenth time:

" The present-day Egyptian E3b-M35 distribution most likely results from a juxtaposition of various demic episodes. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa."

Erroneous E please read studies and quit being ignorant

Thus the precursors to both E3b2-M81 and E3b1-M78 have their origins in sub-Saharan Africa, thus they cannot be non-African because they left out of Africa and developed in Africa you idiot. One spread into Northwest Africa[E3b2-M81] and one spread to the Near East via the *LEVANTINE* Corridor[E3b1-M78] which gave rise to all E3b1-M78 lineages outside of Africa, thus your ramblings that E3b1 is caucasoud is pure nonsense. *CASE CLOSED*!!!

posted 26 May 2005 07:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
lol. Dizzy fool. YOUR ORIGINAL LIE was to deny that they were closer to other Africans in the 1st place.

---

Nope. Never claimed that Ethiopian Jews were closer to other Jews than to Africans. Stop distorting.

quote:

---

So you have in fact repeatedly 'blamed' East African Black phenotype on ancient Haplogroups, such as A&B, which contradicts your 'recent origin of Black African' lie.

---

Nope. What I said was that those haplogroups account for why East Africans are not "Mediterreanian" (sic). The L mtDNA is their Negroid component; the A and B is their Khoisanid component; and their "Mediterranean" (i.e. Caucasoid) component is, of course, E3b. Stop distorting.

quote:

---

What happened to your native East African whites? Did you give up on them? Now they're 'undifferentiated' where undifferentiated apparently equates to-> DOES NOT ACTUALLY EXIST.

---

"...results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these [pre-historic Kenyan] skulls. Display of POPKIN distances (infra) reinforces this and seems to find nearer neighbors among such more generalized populations as Peru, Guam, or Ainu, but also Europeans or even Easter Island." (Howells, 1995)

posted 26 May 2005 07:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Idiot, I said the same thing, but Tischkoff *REJECTS* the admixture hypothesis as the sole reason, you conveniently left out that part and you even admitted it in another post in forum that she doesn't favor the admixture hypothesis.

---

Yes, in this post right here. Please read it more carefully and you'll see that I don't argue in favor of the admixture hypothesis, but quite the opposite.

quote:

---

How the hell could they be *GENETICALLY* non African when E3b originated in East Africa from all published literature? Are you saying that caucasoids migrated into East Africa, dropped off E3b and then left back out?

---

Again, read the above post. All of the Tishkoff study's implications are explained.

quote:

---

Erroneous E, in case you forget, E3b* is *SUB-SAHARAN* read this:

---

E3b is a Eurasian lineages denoting Eurasian ancestry:

"The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity." (Source)

posted 26 May 2005 09:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tony_Soprano:
evil euro go

---

posted 26 May 2005 09:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
"...results here are not indicative of anything.....

---

..except your pathetic attempts to fabricate non-existent whites of east africa, by previously debunked misrepresentations of discredited Howells.

quote:

---

rasol wrote: the fact is that Howells does NOT support Erroneous' claims regarding 'caucazoids' of ancient East Africa.

---

quote:

---

EE reverses himself: Never said he did.

---

quote:

---

rasol writes: Then Stop distorting. We're telling you he doesn't and your far fetched claims are unsupported. claims that caucasoids once lived in East Africa have been shown to be wrong - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa

---

AFRICAN EVE SAYS:

"No whites in East Africa, sorry Erroneous".

There are some Neanderthal up in Europe though, and according to CL Brace, whose map you posted, Neanderthal are YOUR ancestors.

Remember - Brace said it, I didn't, so Don't blame the messenger. Hope this helps." - yours truly, Eve.

posted 26 May 2005 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
E3b is a Eurasian lineages denoting Eurasian ancestry:

"The major components (haplogroups [b]E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity." (Source)

[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 26 May 2005).][/B]

---

??????

Evil E..take your time....

rasol its likely evil e. is dyslexic

barre the definition

Dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurological in origin.

It is characterized by difficulties with accurate and/or fluent word recognition, and by poor spelling and decoding abilities.

These difficulties typically result from a deficit in the phonological component of language that is often unexpected in relation to other cognitive abilities and the provision of effective classroom instruction.

Secondary consequences may include problems in reading comprehension and reduced reading experience that can impede growth of vocabulary and background knowledge.

the beans have been spilt(no pun)!!

posted 26 May 2005 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

I said L mtDNA is their Negroid component; the A and B is their Khoisanid component;

---

Nope, that's not what you said, and ancestral E3b is far more common to many San groups than Haplogroup B, which is not "Khoisanoid", so had you said that, you would have been wrong [as usual] again anyway.

And both E3b and B are essentially found only in Africa [E3b-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan population - PA Underhill], so you are making no sense as usual.

Your problem is you have no idea of what you are talking about, and have told so many lies, that you've lost track of them.

STOP SPINNING, DIZZY CLOWN.

posted 26 May 2005 03:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
E3b is a Eurasian lineages denoting Eurasian ancestry:

"The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity." (Source)[/url]

---

Do you even read those studies you idiot, or do you just parrot Dienekes? The link you gave as a source I went back and read it and no place in that entire full text does it say E3b is a Eurasian ´haplogroup. Lets take your Erroneous self back to school again. It that source link you gave, I read the full text paper and E3b1-M78 has a total frequency of 5% in Anatolia according to that paper. Second as we further dig deeper into the contents of the full text we see something else:

"Haplogroup E3b and Neolithic expansions
While both E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 occur at similar frequency in Turkey, the variance of the former is considerably lower than the latter suggesting either temporal or
effective population size differences. The prevalence of haplogroup E (xM2) chromosomes in northern Egypt may reflect the source of non-African E3b lineages (Manni et
al. 2002). Haplogroup E3b1-M78 haplotypes typify European lineages (Semino, unpublished) and have expansion dates consistent with expansion of agriculturalists (Table 2)."

Idiot, this paper is *NOT* talking about African E3b lineages[E3b1-M78 gamma and delta, E3b2-M81] its talking about E3b1-M78 alpha cluster which typify European E3b lineages , East Africans have 0% of the alpha cluster. He cites Semino et tal's study[which was unpublished then] as proof. Nowhere in Semino et tal's study does he ever say that E3b is Eurasian. Semino et tal states:

"Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa. This is illustrated by the microsatellite network (fig. 3, shaded area), which reveals that the Ethiopian branch harboring DYS392-12 is not shared with either Near Eastern or European populations."

And:

"In conclusion, high-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal regional population differentiations, an East Africa homeland for E-M78, and recent gene-flow episodes consistent with the Neolithic in Europe."

Semino et tal

E3b1-M78 is also given another East Africa homeland according to Sanchez et tal:

"We genotyped a total of 389 males from Somalia, Sub-Saharan Western Africa, Turkey, and Iraq by a PCR based assay with co-amplification of 25 DNA-fragments and detection of 35 Y chromosome biallelic markers with the single base primer extension technique. A total of 19 different haplogroups were identified. In Somalis, 14 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) was found in 77.2 % of the male Somali population, in 6.3 % of Iraqi males and in 1.7 % of male Turks whereas E3b1* was not found in Sub-Saharan Western African males. The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. Furthermore, the results are in agreement with a gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia."

Sanchez et tal

Cruciani et tal makes the same conclusion that E3b has an East African origin.

There you have it from 3 different studies that E3b is East African in origin now find me one study Erroneous idiot that says its Eurasian. Lets cut the crap and find a study that supports your nonsense. You've been stating the 'E3b' is Eurasian caucasoid' lie the entire time based on misreadings and distortions, unless you can prove the original E3b came into Africa from Eurasia you have no case.

posted 26 May 2005 03:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:

Do you even read those studies you idiot, or do you just parrot Dienekes?... Lets take your Erroneous self back to school again.

---

posted 27 May 2005 08:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Nope, that's not what you said

---

Reading comprehension lesson for the dumb ape:

quote:

---

Ape wrote: "Let's have a look at some more of Carleton Coon's "Mediterreanian" caucasoids [Oromo/Borana] ... in this case they have E3b and little to no E3a." [implying that E3b is responsible for their non-Mediterranean appearance]

---

quote:

---

I replied: "Yeah, plus some A and B, and almost all L mtDNA." [pointing out the many non-E3b lineages that give East Africans their non-Mediterranean -- though not necessarily Negroid -- appearance]

---

posted 27 May 2005 08:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
There you have it from 3 different studies that E3b is East African in origin now find me one study Erroneous idiot that says its Eurasian.

---