posted 08 June 2005 06:49 AM            

"The variability that has been found could be a consequence of the various dominations that Sicily has undergone: Sycanians, Siculi, and Elymians to begin with (Piazza et al. 1988), followed by Greeks, Romans, Normans, and Arabs (Sandier et al. 1978; Beretta et al. 1986). Among these, Arab domination seems to have had a very strong genetic impact."

"The relationship between Sicilian and North African populations is controversial in population genetics (Piazza et al. 1988; Rickards et al. 1992; Rickards et al. 1998). Our data seem to confirm the hypothesis of Sandler et al. (1978) that underlines the African contribution to the Sicilian gene pool, because of the high frequencies of Hbs, cDe, and Fy (a-b-). In a paper on mtDNA, Semino et al. (1989) found support for this hypothesis, dating back to the introduction of black slaves by Phoenicians and Romans and to the later influxes of Arab immigrants."

"A genetic boundary, in fact, clearly divides Sicily from north-central Italy and from northern European populations, besides the other populations from the western Mediterranean basin."

[Genetic analysis of a Sicilian population using 15 short tandem repeats, Calo et tal, 2003]

[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 08 June 2005).]

posted 08 June 2005 08:12 AM            

Mitochondrial DNA sequence analysis in Sicily

Vona et al. (2001)
Am J Hum Biol

"In work carried out with restriction enzymes on mtDNA in a sample of Sicilians, Semino et al. (1989) indicated the presence (4.4%) of the African complex HpaI-3/AvaII-3 (40% in Senegal and in the Bantu of South Africa). The authors hypothesized a migration of genes from Africa to Sicily, estimated at about 10%, which was introduced into the Sicilian gene pool by Black slaves brought by the Phoenicians and the Romans and/or by Arab migrations. Results at the mtDNA sequencing level, however, show no Black African influence in the Sicilian population."

quote:

---

Now Erroneous E will spam the link to his...site...

---

...which uses only mtDNA, Y-chromosome and autosomal data from the late 90s and early 2000s, and which your dumb monkey ass can't even begin to refute:

http://racialreality.shorturl.com/sicily.html

posted 08 June 2005 08:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Stupid negro filth. That study has already been dealt with. And if you had a brain you could see for yourself what's wrong with it: References to outdated research from the 1970s and 80s; results based on sickle cell and other blood groups; and an old mtDNA study by Semino that's been refuted:

[b]Mitochondrial DNA sequence analysis in Sicily

Vona et al. (2001)
Am J Hum Biol

"In work carried out with restriction enzymes on mtDNA in a sample of Sicilians, Semino et al. (1989) indicated the presence (4.4%) of the African complex HpaI-3/AvaII-3 (40% in Senegal and in the Bantu of South Africa). The authors hypothesized a migration of genes from Africa to Sicily, estimated at about 10%, which was introduced into the Sicilian gene pool by Black slaves brought by the Phoenicians and the Romans and/or by Arab migrations. Results at the mtDNA sequencing level, however, show no Black African influence in the Sicilian population."

...which uses only mtDNA, Y-chromosome and autosomal data from the late 90s and early 2000s, and which your dumb monkey ass can't even begin to refute:

http://racialreality.shorturl.com/sicily.html

[/B]

---

posted 09 June 2005 07:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Calo et tal's study was done in 2003 you idiot, and he said his findings *support the old studies*, not debunk them.

---

All that Calo's "findings" based on blood groups "support" are other "findings" based on blood groups that date from the 1970s, as well as a refuted Semino mtDNA paper from the 80s. As usual, your selection of material is impeccable.

posted 09 June 2005 08:03 AM            

Anoth obvious thing is that he first few Vatican popes were African (no big deal) but Africa is Africa. No qualitative designation is designed just as North Italy received much German influx (north europe) as evidenced by the 'harsh sounding' names like Ludoviglio (Ludwig?) and other which have become Italianized over the millenia.

posted 09 June 2005 04:18 PM            

Good job top dog!

""The variability that has been found could be a consequence of the various dominations that Sicily has undergone: Sycanians, Siculi, and Elymians to begin with (Piazza et al. 1988), followed by Greeks, Romans, Normans, and Arabs (Sandier et al. 1978; Beretta et al. 1986). Among these, Arab domination seems to have had a very strong genetic impact."

"The relationship between Sicilian and North African populations is controversial in population genetics (Piazza et al. 1988; Rickards et al. 1992; Rickards et al. 1998). Our data seem to confirm the hypothesis of Sandler et al. (1978) that underlines the African contribution to the Sicilian gene pool, because of the high frequencies of Hbs, cDe, and Fy (a-b-). In a paper on mtDNA, Semino et al. (1989) found support for this hypothesis, dating back to the introduction of black slaves by Phoenicians and Romans and to the later influxes of Arab immigrants.""

Hey dumb E your outdated resources are continuously getting refuted!

Evil Euro

posted 10 June 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
Sicilians are a warm people and Sicily as a Southern European port has received much of North African heritage. That is obvious. [...] North Italy received much German influx (north europe) as evidenced by the 'harsh sounding' names like Ludoviglio (Ludwig?) and other which have become Italianized over the millenia.

---

Names do not equal ancestry. Northern Italians in fact have very little German admixture, and Southern Italians have very little North African admixture. Those two groups are predominantly Italic, with additional Celtic and Greek influences, respectively.

quote:

---

The evidence that sickle cell anemia is more prevalent in Southern Europe than North is a present reality. It just tells who was when and that the trait survived.

---

posted 10 June 2005 09:47 AM            

Your logic is excellent along with references. People are more that haplotype, allele, subclade, etc.

We all mix and match to suit our inclincation or goals, to wit, aryan is foreign term so why equate it with Indo-European or even German.

The descriptive German is a modern identification but if we dig deeper, dont you think that Vandal, Suevi, Visigoth, Ostrogoth, Picts, etc would be relevant while saying these groups are history!! Their DNA may be present but it isn't relevant in a moden world! Who can claim to be a Scythian today?

posted 10 June 2005 01:52 PM            

Rationalisation: "You can't quantify African ancestry by sickle cell"

Actually, paternal and maternal haplotypes such as E3-pn2 and L lineages also found in southern Europe also cannot be used to 'quantify', and here is why.

According to geneticist Spencer Wells:

Races really have no meaning biologically, certainly not genetically. Now, if you’re asking, “Do I have ancestors who came from the indigenous groups living in North America?” we could address that. But at the moment it’s very difficult to talk about dividing your genome up into 17 percent whatever. There are companies out there that will do this for you, but I don’t necessarily buy the results they are giving you.

posted 11 June 2005 08:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Benin HBS in Southern Europe is a genetic trait resulting from admixture from Black Africa

---

Incorrect. HbS was introduced into Europe via pre-historic admixture from North Africa.

quote:

---

Rationalisation: "You can't quantify African ancestry by sickle cell"

---

People who aren't desperate, drowning Afronuts don't need to bother with an unreliable marker like HbS when there's abundant mtDNA and Y-chromosome data available. With the exception of Southern Portugal and possibly Holland and Belgium, West African lineages (E3a, L1, L2) are virtually absent in Europe. Notably, Greeks -- who have a high frequency of sickle cell -- carry none of those markers.

quote:

---

Actually, paternal and maternal haplotypes such as E3-pn2 and L lineages also found in southern Europe also cannot be used to 'quantify', and here is why.

---

posted 11 June 2005 09:44 AM            

quote:

---

HbS was introduced into Europe via pre-historic admixture from North Africa.

---

Incorrect. Benin HBS originates in Black Africa. By definition to have Benin HBS is to have genetic admixture FROM Black Africa. As shown....

Using North Africa, or North America, or the Middle East, or the "Atlantic Ocean" as proxy scapegoat doesn't succeed at deflecting the facts shown above.

Keep trying.

posted 11 June 2005 09:59 AM            

quote:

---

People who aren't desperate don't need to bother with an unreliable marker like HbS

---

Denial is the surest sign of desparation. Benin HBS is.....un-de-ni-a-ble proof of sub-saharan African ancestry.

That's why you're reduced to your usual 'evasions'. Run Erroneous Run....

quote:

---

abundant mtDNA and Y-chromosome data available.

---

Abundant is the good word to describe the prescence of African linaeges in Southern Europe, reaching 23% of Y chromosome in Greece, where-in E3b Sub-Sahara derived lineages are the most common Haplotype.

quote:

---

Yes, we know. Races don't exist, and yet somehow everyone from the Greeks to the Olmecs is "Black African".

---

But maybe you'll bait someone into changing the subject to the "Olmecs". More desparation on your part. lol.

But can't save you from Larry Angel, McCown, Keita, Ehret, Garrod, Furon, et al.

Southern Europeans are 'mixed' with....

Negroids from Nubia, (per Angel and McCown)...further specified as "Ethiopic OR Bushmanoid", because the features....

present Negroid characteristics attributable to C R O S S B R E E D I N G - (Garrod and Furon.)...

and which denote the biological intrusion FROM Black Africa INTO the Ancient Greeks and Western Asians (Ehret, Keita) and would be similiar in any case.

That should clarify for you [for the 100th time] what IS being said. It has certainly been clear to us for months now, that you can't refute it.

So yes, pray to the Olmec Gods, they'll help you about as much as those Greek prison photos did.

posted 11 June 2005 03:41 PM            

It seems the more you refute stupid-euro, the more he keeps talking the same old B.S. He's like a broken record, repeating the same nonsense on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on again!

It is tiresome, really!

posted 11 June 2005 04:02 PM            

The Euros (abbreviation or those who uphold that designation will be deem Arabs (will include Persian/Turk, Hindu, Sikh (can yuh believe dat??), Turk as all one kind of people)).

posted 11 June 2005 05:30 PM            

quote:

---

It seems the more you refute stupid-euro, the more he keeps talking the same old B.S..

It is tiresome, really!

---

Lol. Erroneous has to be the most inefficient troll of all time.

After 6 months of trolling he's made no progress with the topic which is after all his singular obsession.

In truth, it does provide passing amusement when new discussants note and point out the same fallacies in Erroneous' arguments that others exploded 6 months ago. Goes to show that false arguments don't age very well, they just start to smell bad after awhile. lol.

posted 12 June 2005 07:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
By definition to have Benin HBS is to have genetic admixture FROM Black Africa.

---

Incorrect. To have HbS is to have a single West African ancestor dating as far back as the Mesolithic or Upper Paleolithic (before "Blacks" even existed). Genetic admixture from West Africa can only be determined using mtDNA, Y-chromosomes or autosomes. And Greeks have no detectable West African admixture, which means their HbS was acquired indirectly from Caucasoids, and then expanded by the environment (just like everyone else's in Europe).

quote:

---

Abundant is the good word to describe the prescence of African linaeges in Southern Europe, reaching 23% of Y chromosome in Greece, where-in E3b Sub-Sahara derived lineages are the most common Haplotype.

---

E3b is found at significant frequencies only in fully Caucasoid North Africans like Kabyles, and partly Caucasoid East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis. It is not found substantially in any unmixed Sub-Saharan Africans. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).

quote:

---

Keep running, as no one here is saying that.

---

Um, all of you stupid monkeys are saying that. The only way you can feel good about being inferior Negroes is to make superior people around the world black like you. But then at the same time, you deny that race exists. That's the very definition of Afrocentrism.

quote:

---

Negroids from Nubia, (per Angel

---

• If Angel's "negroid nose and mouth traits" represent black racial admixture, then where are the other Negroid traits? Where's the Negroid hair type, skull shape, skeletal form, pigmentation etc.? Funny how these Nomadic Neolithic Niggas transmitted only two of their traits to the Levantines and Greeks. Funny also that in his more detailed analyses, Angel makes no mention of a Negroid racial strain in either Neolithic farmers or modern Greeks. Neither does Coon for that matter. Nor Brace. Any answers, Negroes?

• If Arnaiz-Villena's HLA-DRB1 study on Greek-Ethiopian affinities is anything more than junk science, then why has it been rejected by not one, not two, not three, but FOUR world-renowned geneticists? And why have its results never been duplicated by a single other genetic study -- even those conducted using the same HLA genes that Arnaiz-Villena analyzed? This is quite remarkable indeed, but I'm sure the Negroes have a very good explanation. We're all waiting to hear it.

quote:

---

After 6 months of trolling he's made no progress with the topic

---

You misspoke. What you meant to say is that after 6 months of trolling, you've made no progress with finding answers.

You're still desperate and . . .

posted 12 June 2005 08:17 AM            

quote:

---

E3b is found at significant frequencies only in fully Caucasoid North Africans like Kabyles, and partly Caucasoid East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis. It is not found substantially in any unmixed Sub-Saharan Africans. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).

---

Dumb Euro refuted again:

E3b*-M35 lineage percentages in sub-Saharans

Bantu from Kenya- 10.7%

Nilo-Saharan Kenya- 11.1%

Southern African !Kung- 10.9%

South African Bantu- 12.5%

Southern African Khwe- 30.8%

[Cruciani et tal 2004]

posted 12 June 2005 08:51 AM            

quote:

---

To have HbS is to have a single West African ancestor

---

Wrong as usual. There are several haplotypes of Hbs, including Asian and different African Haplotypes. They have different origins and lineages and so reflect different population histories.

It is BENIN HBS which per the Hematology Division of Catania, Sicily is

a) endemic to Sicily.
b) the most frequent blood-pathology in Italy.
c) has a history of great antiquity reflecting trans saharan migrations.
d) is merely one of multiple African genes present in Southern European populations.

quote:

---

Genetic admixture from West Africa can only be determined using mtDNA, Y-chromosomes or autosomes.

---

Wrong again.

You cannot accurately determine the amount of admixture from the sex chromosome or 22 autosomes either, for reasons stated by geneticist Spencer Wells, and of course ignored by you, just as you do with all unpleasant facts.

You can only determine whether or not said African mixtures exist. The endemic precense of phylogenetic, BENIN HBs haplotype in Southern Europe is proof absolute of said admixture.

You can't even bear to admit the fact of Benin haplotype. Much less can you hope to refute it.

quote:

---

And Greeks have no detectable West African admixture

---

Of course they do.....BENIN Hbs haplotype.

Benin haplotype, a gene with a West African origin, spread thru POPULATION MIGRATION to Northern Greece, Sicily and southern Turkey - AK Saxena Md, R Chopra Md, et al.

It is most telling that Europe has ONLY West African haplotype, not Asian haplotype.

And why is that?

The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations

Contrast with the Benin Haplotype......

The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily, Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa.
http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

Caucazoid Benin-HBs or E3b like all of Erroneous pseudo scientific excuses... exists only as desparate wishful thinking in his dim-racist imagination.

Europe has more Benin haplotype than many parts of Black Africa. lol. That's why you can't 'quantify' African ancestry. You can be 100% African genetically and still have NO Benin Haplotype.

You CANNOT BE 100% Eurasian genetically when Benin haplotype is endemic. It's simply not possible. Southern Europeans are 'mixed' with Black Africans and West Asians. Sorry.

NOW SQUIRM

posted 12 June 2005 09:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Dumb Euro wrote:

[b] Dumb Euro refuted again:

E3b*-M35 lineage percentages in sub-Saharans

Bantu from Kenya- 10.7%

Nilo-Saharan Kenya- 11.1%

Southern African !Kung- 10.9%

South African Bantu- 12.5%

Southern African Khwe- [b]30.8%

[Cruciani et tal 2004]

A
Topdog writes: None of these groups obtain E3b*-M35 lineages through mixture with Caucasoids

---

Pristine E3b originates in sub-saharan Africa and is non existant among Europeans and West Asians.

E3b1 originates in sub-saharan Africa and is most common in the Somali, whose E3b1-gamma is the the eldest E3b1 lineage, and exists only in East Africa.

E3b is most common among the Borana of Kenya [80%].....

E3b is an East African lineage and per current anthropology [Keita, Hiernaux, Vogel, et. all] there are no caucasoids of East Africa and never were.

The 'white' Berbers of NorthWest Africa are 'white' because they are predominently West European biologically and this is reflected in, among other things their maternal lineages.

Similary South Arabians are predominently of West Asian J lineage, and yet some are more African than West Asian biologically and in 'appearance'.

Burami Oman.

Why is this? Because Y chromosome lineage is NOT phenotype and Caucasoid genes don't exist.

posted 12 June 2005 10:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Pristine E3b originates in sub-saharan Africa and is non existant among Europeans and West Asians.

E3b1 originates in sub-saharan Africa and is most common in the Somali, whose E3b1-gamma is the the eldest E3b1 lineage, and exists only in East Africa.

E3b is most common among the Borana of Kenya [80%].....

E3b is an East African lineage and per current anthropology [Keita, Hiernaux, Vogel, et. all] there are no caucasoids of East Africa and never were.

The 'white' Berbers of NorthWest Africa are 'white' because they are predominently West European biologically and this is reflected in, among other things their maternal lineages.

Similary South Arabians are predominently of West Asian J lineage, and yet some are more African than West Asian biologically and in 'appearance'.

Burami Oman.

Why is this? Because Y chromosome lineage is NOT phenotype and [b]Caucasoid genes don't exist.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 June 2005).][/B]

---

True that, but Erroneous E still comes up with the dumbest arguments and its amazing how someone like that can ignore evidence to the contrary so much. It has to be a deeply ingrained mental problem to consistently deny something in the face of evidence, thats like saying the sky is orange when its blue and still argue its orange despite the fact that if one looked up they would see blue. Thats the problem with Erroneous E.

posted 12 June 2005 10:31 AM            

quote:

---

It has to be a deeply ingrained mental problem to consistently deny something in the face of evidence

---

Agreed. What is useful 'to me' is to continue using Erroneous to discuss bioanthropology.

posted 12 June 2005 10:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Agreed. What is useful 'to me' is to continue [b]using Erroneous to discuss bioanthropology.

You've shared a lot of good information from quality sources. Keep it up. Erroneous just provides the comic relief. [/B]

---

I still can't believe that idiot believes that E3b in East Africans is Caucasoid. Not only is that position refuted by genetic studies that have ben repeatedly cited, but its also refuted by anthropology and history. Erroneous E is suggesting a near *TOTAL* replacement of male paternal lineages in some groups and history tells us that migrations into East Africa we not never anywhere close to what it would take to accomplish such a feat. Erroneous e doesn't even realise the implications of what he is trying to state.

posted 12 June 2005 11:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Of course they do.....BENIN haplotype. Run Erroneous, run!

Benin haplotype, a gene with a West African origin, spread thru POPULATION MIGRATION to Northern Greece, Sicily and southern Turkey - AK Saxena Md, R Chopra Md, et al.

It is most telling that Europe has ONLY [b]West African haplotype, not Asian haplotype.

And why is that?

The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations

Contrast with the Benin Haplotype......

The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily, Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa.
http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

Caucazoid Benin-HBs or E3b like all of Erroneous pseudo scientific excuses... exists only as desparate wishful thinking in his dim-racist imagination.

Europe has more Benin haplotype than many parts of Black Africa. lol. That's why you can't 'quantify' African ancestry. You can be 100% African genetically and still have NO Benin Haplotype.

You CANNOT BE 100% Eurasian genetically when Benin haplotype is endemic. It's simply not possible. Southern Europeans are 'mixed' with Black Africans and West Asians. Sorry.

NOW SQUIRM

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 June 2005).][/B]

---

First I would like to say Great post rasol!

Here's a link to Siclke Cell Disease Association of America: http://www.sicklecelldisease.org/about_scd/affected1.phtml

Who is Affected?

In the United States people are often surprised when they learn that a person who is not African American has sickle cell disease. The disease originated in at least 4 places in Africa and in the Indian/Saudi Arabian subcontinent. It exists in all countries of Africa and in areas where Africans have migrated.

It is most common in West and Central Africa where as many as 25% of the people have sickle cell trait and 1-2% of all babies are born with a form of the disease. In the United States with an estimated population of over 270 million, about 1,000 babies are born with sickle cell disease each year. In contrast, Nigeria, with an estimated 1997 population of 90 million, 45,000-90,000 babies with sickle cell disease are born each year.

The transatlantic slave trade was largely responsible for introducing the sickle cell gene into the Americas and the Caribbean. However, sickle cell disease had already spread from Africa to Southern Europe by the time of the slave trade, so it is present in Portuguese, Spaniards, French Corsicans, Sardinians, Sicilians, mainland Italians, Greeks, Turks and Cypriots. Sickle cell disease appears in most of the Near and Middle East countries including Lebanon, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Yemen.

The condition has also been reported in India and Sri Lanka. Sickle cell disease is an international health problem and truly a global challenge.>

All these countries must work together to solve the problem and find effective treatments and ultimately a cure. The knowledge and expertise in the management of sickle cell disease acquired in the technologically advanced countries must be shared with the less developed countries where patients die at alarming rates.

Excerpted from
A Comprehensive Guide to SCD & SCDAA Services

posted 12 June 2005 12:49 PM            

Consider Cohen Haplotype in the Lemba Bantu of Southern Africa:

all those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology - Dr Christopher Wills

This is in contrast to Benin HBS in Europe which has a specific effect on morphology. [sickle shaped blood cells]

In terms of clinal distribution of sickle cell, Southern Europe shows affinities with Black Africa and separation from Northern Europe.

It does not matter that Benin Hbs is under selection [actually debatable whether said selection would be positive or negative given the spotty malaria record in europe], as virtually all other phylogenetic traits that would result from admixture in south Europe would definitely be under limited positive selection.

For example: dark skin, curly hair, and stronger bones, all African characteristics and all present to greater degree in southern Europe than in the north.

And admixed Afro European population, like the Greeks and Sicilians would be at a definite advantage with any of the above traits - thus subjecting them all to selection.

The difference is that those traits in theory could evolve independantly, and therefore poly-genetically with no African admixture.

Not so for Benin HBS which unlike other typically African physical characteristics found in south Europe can ONLY result from admixture.

Before the identification of Benin Haplotype it has been speculated that the sickle cell condition had perhaps 'evolved' in South Europe independant of admixture. Nope.

We now know that this is not the case, and it lends further support to Angel, McCown, Keita et. al., who are essentially unrefuted in current bioanthropological literature.

In simple terms: the genetic significance of Benin Hbs in southern Europe is equal to the degree to which the physical effect - sickle cell trait - exists, no more, no less.

posted 13 June 2005 07:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
You cannot accurately determine the amount of admixture from the sex chromosome or 22 autosomes either

---

Um, you can determine a hell of lot more from gender markers and autosomes than from a highly selected gene like HbS. And Greeks have no West African mtDNA, Y-chromosomes or autosomes, which means no detectable admixture. Back to Population Genetics 101 with you, stupid savage.

quote:

---

You CANNOT BE 100% Eurasian genetically when Benin haplotype is endemic.

---

No, but you can be 99.999999999999...% Eurasian with Benin haplotype because it's the environment that expands the gene, you retarded ape, not race mixing. When will your low-IQ black ass be able grasp that obvious fact?

quote:

---

It's simply not possible. Southern Europeans are 'mixed' with Black Africans.

---

Really? Then where are your answers?

quote:

---

[actually debatable whether said selection would be positive or negative given the spotty malaria record in europe]

---

More ignorance from the dumb spook.

quote:

---

We now know that this is not the case, and it lends further support to Angel, McCown, Keita et. al., who are essentially unrefuted in current bioanthropological literature.

---

And how does it do that, slave? Those sources discuss Basic White admixture from Northeast Africa. Sickle cell comes from West Sub-Saharan Africa.

quote:

---

dark skin, curly hair, and stronger bones, all African characteristics and all present to greater degree in southern Europe than in the north.

---

Skin color in Southern Europe is climatically adapted, and curly hair is more common among UP Irishmen than Southern Europeans. "Stronger bones" is just some vague bullsh*t you threw in there to sound like you have a clue.

quote:

---

In simple terms: the genetic significance of Benin Hbs in southern Europe is equal to the degree to which the physical effect - sickle cell trait - exists, no more, no less.

---

Wrong again, you dumb, dirty, desperate, drowning ape:

"African admixture in Sicily has been long suspected because of the presence of the sickle gene. Nevertheless, the degree of African admixture cannot be derived from the study of HbS frequency, since this gene was most likely expanded by the selective pressure of malaria, for a long time endemic to the region. We have examined 142 individuals from the Sicilian town of Butera (12% sickle trait) to search for other markers of the globin gene cluster less likely to be selected for by malaria. The TaqI polymorphism in the intervening sequences between the two gamma genes is informative. We have found only two instances of this African marker (TaqI(-)) among 267 normal chromosomes, demonstrating that the admixture occurred at a much lower level than previously thought."

-- Ragusa et al. (1992) Presence of an African Beta-globin Gene Cluster Haplotype in Normal Chromosomes in Sicily. Am J Hematol; 40:313-315

posted 13 June 2005 07:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:

Dumb Euro refuted again:

E3b*-M35 lineage percentages in sub-Saharans

Bantu from Kenya- 10.7%

Nilo-Saharan Kenya- 11.1%

Southern African !Kung- 10.9%

South African Bantu- 12.5%

---

Do those look like significant frequencies to you, monkey? The average total admixture equals ~5%. Obviously, that reflects minor gene flow from mixed East Africans.

The fact still stands . . .

posted 13 June 2005 07:57 AM            

quote:

---

Um, you can determine a hell of lot more from gender markers and autosomes than from a highly selected gene like HbS.

---

posted 13 June 2005 08:09 AM            

quote:

---

99.999999999999...% Eurasian with Benin haplotype because it's the environment that expands the gene

---

You are apallingly ignorant, and it is clear that you need yet another biology lesson.

Sickle cell is a morphological manifestation of Benin HBS, which is endemic, meaning preponderant in Italy

Benin Hbs is therefore causal of an inherited genetic trait that actually effects the morphology of the organism, which is WHY such haplotypes are under selection to begin with.

This includes the very traits YOU attempt to associate with racial difference - dark skin and curly hair, bone density, are all subject to selection.

This explains why Y chromosome associated Cohen model haplotype has no decernable effect on Lemba morphology.

It documents lineage, to a limited and non-quantifable degree - as stated by Dr's Spenser Wells, and Christopher Wills - but does not have a specific effect on morphology.

So if you want to pretend that Benin HBS is irrelevant, go do it in a sickle cell ward, you'll get the same response that you get here. Idiot.

quote:

---

Sickle cell comes from West Sub-Saharan Africa

---

Actually no, idiot. Sickle cell is a pathology found in many parts of the world that results from inherited genes. One of these genes is Benin HBS.

Benin HBS is a sub-saharan African haplotype associated with specific morphological effect on the organism..

Benin HBS is the cause of sickle cell morphology in certain European groups.

The principal would be the same if the gene caused Afro hair, or dark skin. It would still be causal of an inherited morphological distinction that links these southern Europeans to Africans.

And if you could 'add up' all the genes that account for descernable morphological trademarks in 'groups' [which you can't, of course] it would still make up only a miniscule fraction of the human genome, so unless your intention is to reinforce 'our' point over the trivial nature of supposed 'racial' divergence, then....

E3b is a sub-saharan African Y chromosome [PA UnderHill] haplotype that documents a specific lineage, or male paternity, and not a morphological effect.

In Greece E3b derived, is the most common signature Y chromsome.

Thus both E3b AND Benin Hbs haplotypes document sub saharan admixture in South Europe with one denoting a lineage and the other a morphology.

Hence as Dr. Keita notes: racialists models which imply nonoverlapping gene pools......are outdated.

The presence of E3BM35 lineages and the Benin haplotype in southern Europe illustrates this well

Sickle cell trait documents West African inherited genotype and consequent alteration in morphology in Southern Europe.

posted 13 June 2005 08:16 AM            

quote:

---

Southern Europeans are 'mixed' with Black Africans.

---

quote:

---

Really? Then where are your answers?

---

Right in front of you. But you always turn tail and run away from them. Why is that?

ANSWERS:
Negroids from Nubia, (per Angel and McCown)...further specified as "Ethiopic OR Bushmanoid", because the features....

present Negroid characteristics attributable to C R O S S B R E E D I N G - (Garrod and Furon.)...

and which denote the biological intrusion FROM Black Africa INTO the Ancient Greeks and Western Asians (Ehret, Keita) and would be similiar in any case.

- Larry Angel, McCown, Keita, Ehret, Garrod, Furon, et al.

Good luck refuting the above renowned scholars.

Collectively they are....

SLAPPING YOU SENSELESS!

Come back tomorrow and we'll abuse you some more. You know you like it.

posted 13 June 2005 01:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Do those look like significant frequencies to you, monkey? The average total admixture equals ~5%.

---

Retarded guido, why did you selectively leave out this:

Southern African Khwe- 30.8%

[Cruciani et tal 2004]

The South African Khwe have E3b*-M35 at a far higher frequency than any East African group. So once again stupid, if E3b is Caucasoid, please state the name and population of this Caucasoid group, you can't because there wasn't any.

quote:

---

Obviously, that reflects minor gene flow from mixed East Africans.

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Wrong retard, from published literature that has already been cited numerous times for your dumb brain to understand, E3b* arose in sub-Saharan Africa and spread north into East Africa bringing derived E3b lineages which included E3b1-M78. This was stated cleanly in published literature[Luis et tal, 2004] yet your dumb brain ignores it as if it doesn't exist. E3b* didn't arise in East Africa and the South African groups that have it didn't get it from mixture with East Africans because if they did they would have E3b1-M78 lineages which they do not have.

quote:

---

The fact still stands . . .

E3b is found at significant frequencies only in fully Caucasoid North Africans like Kabyles, and partly Caucasoid East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis. It is not found substantially in any unmixed Sub-Saharan Africans. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).[/B]

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None of those east African groups got e3b through mixture with Caucasoids you dumb guido, if you're so sure please name these caucasoids who gave it to them. One thing that is certain is that unlike Europeans, East Africans didn't receive E3b from a migration, the only lineage received in substantial quantities is J2. Europe received J2 and E3b lineages through migrations from the Levant. Until you stated when, how and which Caucasoids spread E3b lineages into East Africa this debate is over.

posted 13 June 2005 03:39 PM            

quote:

---

Retarded guido, why did you selectively leave out this:

Southern African Khwe- 30.8%

[Cruciani et tal 2004]

The South African Khwe have E3b*-M35 at a far higher frequency than any East African group. So once again stupid, if E3b is Caucasoid, please state the name and population of this Caucasoid group?

---

Of course he can't name what does not exist.

So here is what slow-witted Erroneous will do:

* He will make the irrelevant claim that the Khwe are not 'true' Negros. And in so doing attempt to deflect your question into other questions which he has also failed to answer:

quote:

---

Thought writes: Erroneous, give us YOUR definition of terms for Negroid and Caucasoid, and state your chronology for the development of these [morphologies?]

---

Thus concluding his non responsive reply with 3 unanswered questions in place of one.

Advance -> Boooooo! for Erroneous NO ANSWER replies to come.

posted 13 June 2005 03:50 PM            

...terms such as "Negroid," "Caucasoid," and "Mongoloid" create more problems than they solve.
Biologically, such terms are worse than useless. " Brace

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong - J.O. Vogel

the peopling of East Africa was carried out by three main African groups: the Cushitic-speaking peoples; the Nilotic-speaking peoples; the Bantu-speaking peoples....ancestors of most present-day East Africans– the Black Africans. - Dr. Elisabeth Dunstan and David Hall.

posted 13 June 2005 03:57 PM            

Asserting that which does not exist is a fallacy known as reification - To regard an abstraction as if it had concrete or material existence.

From John Stuart Mill:

The tendency is to believe that whatever receives a name must be a real entity. And if no entity answering to that name is found, it cannot be as one might suppose, because none existed. But rather, it is suggested that it is something particularly "mysterious."

posted 13 June 2005 04:01 PM            

quote:

---

Topdog:
Wrong retard, from published literature that has already been cited numerous times for your dumb brain to understand, E3b* arose in sub-Saharan Africa and spread north into East Africa bringing derived E3b lineages which included E3b1-M78. This was stated cleanly in published literature[Luis et tal, 2004] yet your dumb brain ignores it as if it doesn't exist.

E3b* didn't arise in East Africa and the South African groups that have it didn't get it from mixture with East Africans because if they did they would have E3b1-M78 lineages which they do not have.

---

Regarding that last statement, I take it that, you probably meant to say that, "E3b* didn't arise in East Africa due to admixture". At least, that is the message your other statements convey.

posted 13 June 2005 04:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Supercar: above reference appears to be to TopDog's post, not mine.

---

posted 13 June 2005 04:27 PM            

"The Vasikela Kung and the Khwe both speak Khoisan languages. However, the Khwe have a physical appearance that is more similar to that seen in many Bantu-derived populations than to that of the Vasikela Kung. Therefore, the Khwe may have originated from the Bantu migration into southern Africa and subsequently may have adopted the Khoisan language. This possibility is supported both by the striking differences between the population-specific haplotypes of the Kung San () and those of the Bantu-speaking Senegalese () and by the greater similarities between the Khwe and Senegalese haplotypes than between the Kung and the Khwe haplotypes."

"Khoisan-speaking populations can generally be divided into two distinct groups, the San and the Khoi. San populations consist of 10 different Kung groups ("!Xu" is pronounced "Kung"), as well as the //au//en, Nharo, G/wi, G//ana, !Xo and G!aokxíte, who also speak click-languages. The Khoi consist of five populationstwo Topanaar groups and the Kede, Hei//om, and Nama. A third set of southern-African populations, which coexist with Khoisan-speaking groups, are the so-called Negroids, who are largely Bantu-speakers. These include the Kwisi, Kwadi, Cimba, Dama, Kgalagadi, and Denasena (Nurse et al. 1985). Although the two Khwe (Kwengo) groups physically appear to be "Negroid," they speak a Khoisan language (de Almeida 1965). Consequently, they have been called "black Bushmen." The geographic locations of the populations analyzed in this study, as well as the populations to which they are compared, are shown in figure 1."

[Chen et tal, 2000]

Let us also keep in ind that Erroneous E thinks E3b* is 'Caucasoid' yet the Khwe show *NO* tendency to look Caucasoid in any of their morphology. Khwe also have 57.7% E(xE3b) which more likely E3a[Cruciani et tal, 2004] which places them right in the centre of the PN2 clade. All of this data is consistet with Luis et tal's hypothesis that E3b*-M35 expanded from a sub-Saharan population[*NEGROID*, not Sanid in morphology] that took a northward route into East Africa that eventually gave rise to E3b1-M78 lineages. Since the Khwe aren't mixed with Caucasoids how could E3b* be Caucasoid? His argument about it appearing in mixed East Africans[which is misleading since only the Amhara have any substantial mixture with foreigners and with Somalis and Oromos having low levels of J2 lineages] and Kabyles[who carry E3b2-M81 which in turn are derived *FROM* East African E3b1-M78 lineages] is no argument and do not prove that E3b nor E3b* is Caucasoid. Unless he names this imaginary 'Caucasoid people[Sorry Erroneous E, the Hamitic Hypothesis has already been debunked] he has no argument. True, Khwe may be 'mixed', but since the mixture wasn't with Caucasoids, his argument about E3b* not appearing in unmixed sub-Saharan Africans is a moot point.

posted 13 June 2005 04:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
Regarding that last statement, I take it that, you probably meant to say that, "E3b* didn't arise in East Africa [b]due to admixture". At least, that is the message your other statements convey.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 13 June 2005).][/B]

---

Well as you've pointed out to me before, East Africa is sub-Saharan Africa in the broad sense[East Africa should be included as part of sub-Saharan Africa instead of being separated], but in the context of those genetic studies being referenced, 'sub-Saharan' as I'm using it means below the Sahara, but not in East Africa. My point was that the highest levels of E3b* are in a South African Negroid population and since this population lacks E3b1-M78 lineages it seems likely that it arose in sub-Saharan Africa but not in the Eastern part of sub-Saharan Africa.

posted 13 June 2005 04:46 PM            

There is no rhyme or reason with these people.

posted 13 June 2005 04:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
If only jizz was here to see his mentor getting beat-down into the ground! jizz also talks the same nonsense that E3b is 'caucasoid'!!

There is no rhyme or reason with these people.

---

Who is jizz?

posted 13 June 2005 04:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
let us also keep in mind that South African Khwe are morphologically *NEGROID*, not Sanid in appearance although they speak a related language to Sanid people. They're often called "black Bushmen". Based on mtDNA they're more related to their Bantu speaking neighbors than to Sanid peoples. They also carry a high frequency of E3b*-M35 than East Africans and Sanid peoples making unlikely that they acquired this lineage from mixing with Sanid and or East Africans. Thus we have a population that is morphologically more akin to so-called 'True Negro' Bantu people as opposed to the Elongated East Africans, carrying the highest frequencies of E3b*-M35. I want to re-emphasise my point that they are indeed *NEGROID* in appearance:

"The Vasikela Kung and the Khwe both speak Khoisan languages. However, the Khwe have a physical appearance that is more similar to that seen in many Bantu-derived populations than to that of the Vasikela Kung. Therefore, the Khwe may have originated from the Bantu migration into southern Africa and subsequently may have adopted the Khoisan language. This possibility is supported both by the striking differences between the population-specific haplotypes of the Kung San () and those of the Bantu-speaking Senegalese () and by the greater similarities between the Khwe and Senegalese haplotypes than between the Kung and the Khwe haplotypes."

"Khoisan-speaking populations can generally be divided into two distinct groups, the San and the Khoi. San populations consist of 10 different Kung groups ("!Xu" is pronounced "Kung"), as well as the //au//en, Nharo, G/wi, G//ana, !Xo and G!aokxíte, who also speak click-languages. The Khoi consist of five populationstwo Topanaar groups and the Kede, Hei//om, and Nama. A third set of southern-African populations, which coexist with Khoisan-speaking groups, are the so-called Negroids, who are largely Bantu-speakers. These include the Kwisi, Kwadi, Cimba, Dama, Kgalagadi, and Denasena (Nurse et al. 1985). Although the two Khwe (Kwengo) groups physically appear to be "Negroid," they speak a Khoisan language (de Almeida 1965). Consequently, they have been called "black Bushmen." The geographic locations of the populations analyzed in this study, as well as the populations to which they are compared, are shown in figure 1."

[Chen et tal, 2000]

Let us also keep in ind that Erroneous E thinks E3b* is 'Caucasoid' yet the Khwe show *NO* tendency to look Caucasoid in any of their morphology. Khwe also have 57.7% E(xE3b) which more likely E3a[Cruciani et tal, 2004] which places them right in the centre of the PN2 clade. All of this data is consistet with Luis et tal's hypothesis that E3b*-M35 expanded from a sub-Saharan population[*NEGROID*, not Sanid in morphology] that took a northward route into East Africa that eventually gave rise to E3b1-M78 lineages. Since the Khwe aren't mixed with Caucasoids how could E3b* be Caucasoid? His argument about it appearing in mixed East Africans[which is misleading since only the Amhara have any substantial mixture with foreigners and with Somalis and Oromos having low levels of J2 lineages] and Kabyles[who carry E3b2-M81 which in turn are derived *FROM* East African E3b1-M78 lineages] is no argument and do not prove that E3b nor E3b* is Caucasoid. Unless he names this imaginary 'Caucasoid people[Sorry Erroneous E, the Hamitic Hypothesis has already been debunked] he has no argument. True, Khwe may be 'mixed', but since the mixture wasn't with Caucasoids, his argument about E3b* not appearing in unmixed sub-Saharan Africans is a moot point.

---

posted 13 June 2005 05:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Who is jizz?

---

Some Yemeni guy called Jizzan who is just as dumb as Erroneous, for thinking that E3b is of "caucasoid" origin and that all East Africans are mixed!

He also likes to post selective pics of Somalis and other East Africans.

He is even worse than Erroneous, in that he cites no sources at all, let alone inaccurate ones.

posted 13 June 2005 05:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
Topdog, I could have sworn that you are of the position that, "negroid", or "caucasoid" as applied by folks like Evil, aren't valid from a scientific standpoint. I feel that, however, when you use those terms, you are in a way letting Evil off the hook. As you already know, the intention: it assumes an extreme restrictions on the otherwise widely diverse tropical Africans, while "caucasoid" on the other hand, is indiscriminately applied to "worldwide" geographical locations.

---

I got your point man. I should have said more similar to Bantu speaking people rather than use Negroid. But my point is that E3b* and E3b are came from sub-Saharan African populations.

posted 13 June 2005 05:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
I got your point man. I should have said more similar to Bantu speaking people rather than use Negroid. But my point is that E3b* and E3b are came from sub-Saharan African populations.

---

posted 13 June 2005 05:54 PM            

quote:

---

Some Yemeni guy called Jizzan who is just as dumb as Erroneous

---

The Yemeni from the Netherlands

He's just another....

posted 13 June 2005 05:55 PM            

For the past 6 months he come here talking the same tired old sh** only to be whipped and humiliated everytime!

So, why does he keep doing it??!!